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BS: UK political parties for oblivion?

Richard Bridge 11 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Mar 13 - 08:31 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 12 Mar 13 - 03:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 13 - 04:20 AM
Musket 12 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 12 Mar 13 - 06:31 AM
Musket 12 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 12 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM
John MacKenzie 12 Mar 13 - 09:17 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 13 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 12 Mar 13 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 12 Mar 13 - 10:58 AM
John MacKenzie 12 Mar 13 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 12 Mar 13 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 12 Mar 13 - 02:30 PM
Dave Hanson 12 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 12 Mar 13 - 04:37 PM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 13 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 13 Mar 13 - 01:25 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Mar 13 - 04:57 AM
Musket 13 Mar 13 - 05:33 AM
Little Hawk 13 Mar 13 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 13 Mar 13 - 06:27 AM
Wolfhound person 13 Mar 13 - 07:04 AM
Wolfhound person 13 Mar 13 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,BrendanB. 13 Mar 13 - 08:13 AM
Musket 13 Mar 13 - 10:08 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Mar 13 - 11:12 AM
GUEST 14 Mar 13 - 04:21 AM
Wolfhound person 14 Mar 13 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 14 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Mar 13 - 08:53 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Mar 13 - 02:43 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Mar 13 - 02:45 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 15 Mar 13 - 03:23 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Mar 13 - 03:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 13 - 04:02 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Mar 13 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 15 Mar 13 - 05:23 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Mar 13 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 15 Mar 13 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 15 Mar 13 - 02:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 15 Mar 13 - 02:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 13 - 04:05 PM
akenaton 15 Mar 13 - 07:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 16 Mar 13 - 03:38 AM
Jim McLean 16 Mar 13 - 06:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Mar 13 - 06:54 AM
akenaton 16 Mar 13 - 08:29 AM
Musket 16 Mar 13 - 11:51 AM
GUEST 16 Mar 13 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 16 Mar 13 - 11:56 AM
Jim McLean 16 Mar 13 - 12:46 PM
Musket 16 Mar 13 - 01:28 PM
Jim McLean 16 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 17 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM
Jim McLean 17 Mar 13 - 07:10 AM
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McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 13 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 18 Mar 13 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 19 Mar 13 - 07:31 AM
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GUEST,Musket sans cookie 20 Mar 13 - 03:13 AM
akenaton 20 Mar 13 - 04:42 AM
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Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Mar 13 - 06:54 AM
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Musket 21 Mar 13 - 04:56 AM
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Pete Jennings 22 Mar 13 - 11:16 AM
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Stu 23 Mar 13 - 07:10 AM
akenaton 23 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM
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Richard Bridge 23 Mar 13 - 09:21 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 13 - 09:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 13 - 09:47 AM
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Allan Conn 24 Mar 13 - 05:17 AM
Allan Conn 24 Mar 13 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 24 Mar 13 - 06:18 AM
akenaton 24 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM
Allan Conn 24 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM
GUEST 24 Mar 13 - 07:40 AM
akenaton 24 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Musket sas cookie 24 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Mar 13 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 24 Mar 13 - 03:57 PM
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akenaton 24 Mar 13 - 06:17 PM
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Richard Bridge 24 Mar 13 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 25 Mar 13 - 03:41 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Mar 13 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 25 Mar 13 - 04:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 25 Mar 13 - 05:24 AM
Allan Conn 25 Mar 13 - 06:08 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 25 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Mar 13 - 11:09 AM
Musket 25 Mar 13 - 01:45 PM
Jim McLean 25 Mar 13 - 04:39 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Mar 13 - 05:08 PM
Jim McLean 25 Mar 13 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 26 Mar 13 - 03:01 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 26 Mar 13 - 03:31 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 26 Mar 13 - 06:04 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM
akenaton 27 Mar 13 - 03:34 AM
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Musket 27 Mar 13 - 07:29 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Mar 13 - 07:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Mar 13 - 07:50 PM
Musket 28 Mar 13 - 06:26 AM
Stu 28 Mar 13 - 07:08 AM
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Richard Bridge 28 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM
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McGrath of Harlow 28 Mar 13 - 08:22 AM
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Jim McLean 29 Mar 13 - 04:56 AM
Musket 29 Mar 13 - 06:24 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Mar 13 - 08:38 AM
Musket 29 Mar 13 - 08:59 AM
akenaton 29 Mar 13 - 09:05 AM
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Jim McLean 29 Mar 13 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 29 Mar 13 - 10:38 AM
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akenaton 29 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM
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Jim McLean 29 Mar 13 - 05:43 PM
Stu 30 Mar 13 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 30 Mar 13 - 05:47 AM
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Subject: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM

Theresa May, other right wing loonies, and the unspeakeble and corrupt Liam Fox jostle to take the conservatives as far right as UKIP or futher.

Clegg rebuffs the views of his expert economist Cable on the need for "Plan B". Activists quit at the party conference because of the coalition.

The Church of England, once "the Tory party at prayer", lines up against the bedroom tax and the welfare cuts.


We all knew, I think, that the Lib-Dems were headed for oblivion by their brand being tainted by the conservatives, but even though the Etonians had revealed that they were still "the nasty party" too many are tending to want to make it nastier. Now they may also be headed for oblivion before a Labour landslide at the electon.


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Subject: RE: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 08:31 PM

Ooops, BS.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:59 AM

Ok. I'll wade in.

Both Conservative and Labour are scared of not forming the next government. But one of them will do?

LibDem is in my opinion worthy of your withering denouncement. But Eastleigh should at least give cause for thoughtful reflection.

I reckon you should give the electorate more respect. Despite the soundbites and bloody noses at by elections, main results tend to reflect the vox pop. At the last election labour were punished but Conservative ideas weren't what people wanted hence hung parliament. UKIP are the present outpouring of frustration for many but not fit for running Churchill's whelk stand. Their policies are a tribute to Screaming Lord Such on marching powder.

Lighten up. We vote and the government wins. T'was ever thus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:20 AM

UKIP splits the Tory vote and will prevent their election if no agreement is reached.
Together they got more than half the vote at Eastleigh, LIb Dems less than a third.
So, a right of centre Eurosceptic electorate got a left of centre Eurofanatic party elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

The electorate are not right of centre Eurosceptic.

The media are building a pathetic joke up in order to keep real politicians on their toes. UKIP are not a political party, have no policies and any examination beyond the Daily Mail moans about Johnny Foreigner sees the odious idiots for what they are. Racist xenophobic fools who need to rebuild the disgraceful British Empire to fund even the less stupid parts of what they promise.

Dave Such, as I said above, would have been proud of them and BNP/NF can drop out of society now as their work is done with every sheep vote for Farage and his protest movement.

If any party needs to strike a pact with UKIP, they have no mandate to stand for election. Cameron, for all his faults knows this far more than the well heeled less educated idiots who think a mainstream party thinks as they do on account of Daddy being the local treasurer in 1949.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:31 AM

Yeah! I suppose that the Tories will get thrown out at the next election and another bunch of, slightly less extreme but smugger, right of centre free marketeers, i.e. the Labour Party, will get elected ... and round and round and round ...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM

Welcome to social democracy!

On a serious note, I support it. Only because I have never been told of a better system mind, but I do support the idea in terms of stability and opportunity coupled with a social agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM

You obviously don't live in the city that I live in - one in which the city council is dominated by Labour. They are smug, authoritarian and extremely poor at consulting the various communities that they contemptuously 'lord it over'. They are much more concerned about the 'rights' of property developers to make huge profits than the rights of citizens or the local environment. Trouble is, the electorate either doesn't vote at all at council elections, or automatically and unthinkingly votes Labour. Labour voters internal script seems to go something like this: "My grandad mined coal with his teeth, and if (Old) Labour was good enough for him, (New) Labour is good enough for me!" Unthinking dogma which, of course, fails to notice that New Labour is a very different beast from Old Labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:17 AM

What we need is a party that doesn't lower taxes, and increase government spending.
Cut VAT, increase taxes, build houses.
If the Lib Dmes aren't involved in a coalition, after the next election, then UKIP will be. Mark my words.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:19 AM

So, anybody worked out what the total number of chickens will be by May 2015?

Enough egg-on-the-face to go round?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:38 AM

Ah well. Not only my granddad but I used to mine the ruddy stuff myself..

I take your point though. Traditional voting being what it is, a combination of thoughtful and loony voting combine to give a majority. Most people would feel uncomfortable voting for the traditional "other lot" and to be honest I have yet to see myself voting Tory. Whether that is heritage or them having nothing to offer in my view is academic. I just haven't and doubt I ever will. Which is odd because I am fully aware that to feel your vote counts you have to be prepared to float it. Even occasionally voting for a protest platform like Save the Sausage or UKIP.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:58 AM

Saving the sausage is undoubtedly the single most important issue facing the UK in the 21st century. I refer in particular to the brightest star in the sausage constellation - the Lincolnshire Sausage. Ambrosia.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 11:44 AM

Cumberland, every time


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 11:53 AM

Nah, there's something rather unnerving about those....kinda looks like it's trying to shove its head up its own arse! There are are several things I prefer straight, and a sausage is one of them. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 02:30 PM

Here in real (North) Lincolnshire the butcher in Crowle does Jack sausages which are Lincolnshire but far more herbs etc for grown ups.

When I come from in Derbyshire straight sausages are also a virtue but they don't seem so fussy around Doncaster. ....

Sorry, far better than talking politics. Bridge started it then buggered off. Pity cos he gives good entertainment value when he starts ranting.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM

I'm a Yorkshireman but the best sausages I've ever tried are ' Welsh Dragon '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:37 PM

"Sorry, far better than talking politics"

Couldn't agree more. The butcher in Kirton Lindsey market place makes some wonderful varieties, including pork & cider which I've eaten on a number of occasions at Brandy Wharf. Very, very nice with a pint of still cider.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:58 PM

You'd be far better off with no political parties at all. And so would we. It might be possible to form an honest and sensible government if there were no political parties corrupting the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 01:25 AM

Yep, do away with political parties and introduce free sausages for all.
Sausages - The One True Path.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 04:57 AM

Ah, but that's part of the Etonian plot. Death by sausage for the working class. Preferably the cheapest sausage.

And speaking of working, that's what I've been doing. That and playing a couple of gigs. Sorry to have a life and all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 05:33 AM

The cheapest sausage? That's bollocks that is. (Or would be if horse wasn't cheaper.)

You don't have to apologise for having a sorry life. I'm having one this week. Stopped trying to regulate healthcare and from next month, trying to run a part of it. Hence a couple of weeks doing nowt, bugger all.

Sausages may be the one true path, but in order to fill in the box saying "religion" on monitoring sheets our public sector employers insist on, I joined The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster the other year, and as sausages are not made of pasta, you are nothing but a heretic sir! We Pastafarians know better...

(Someone told me that there has been a schism and there is now a REFORMED Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Might see if they are better, might do Nectar cards or something?)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 05:52 AM

The Flying Spaghetti Monster completely lacks any qualities that would entitle it to legitimately be someone's focus of worship. It's too easily defined, it has very obvious limitations, and that just doesn't work.

That is the main thing wrong with all forms of idolatry. They're extremely limited, both in their characteristics, in their concept, and in their definition. They're just bigger versions of other limited things that we're already quite familiar with. And that means...no big deal!

For instance: it clearly looks like spaghetti, and it flies, and it's a "monster", therefore it's measureably large and/or monstrous, and all that simply doesn't work. God either...

1. doesn't look like anything

or

2. looks like everything

and as a result

3. is immeasurable, neither small nor large but simply infinite in both directions, indefinable, has either all or none of the various   characteristics we can come up with in a definition, and cannot be seen, unless seen implicitly in everything.

And I think I'll just leave it at that, rather than elaborating further. ;-) It wouldn't do any good anyway. It would probably be rather like trying to teach a pig how to do calculus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:27 AM

I watch my diet very carefully nowadays, and I'm 77 lbs lighter than I was a few years ago. I seldom eat sausages, and never, ever eat cheap, mass-produced sausages - the southern softies can have those shitty things - I only eat good-quality bangers made by local butchers. As I eat them maybe three or four times a year only, I don't feel under any threat from the Toffs of Eton, or Toffs of any other public-school for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 07:04 AM

A plague on all their houses.

Start by copying Iceland. Put all the bankers and politicians in prison.
I believe they're back in the black now they've done that - even if not wealthy again.

I agree with most of what John McK's said - a steeply ramped tax system and less VAT would help the many at the expense of the few. And while I'm on - if the minimum wage is that - the minimum necessary to live (exist?) on - why is it taxed?

Paws


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 07:05 AM

PS Make mine Cumberland.

Paws


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,BrendanB.
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 08:13 AM

Many here may find the polices of UKIP distasteful, but according to media polls, support for them and their policies are rising at a dramatic rate. Cameron admits that immigration will be high on the priority of all parties during the next election. It is a concerning matter when you consider Bulgaria and Romania receive full EEC status this year.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:08 AM

Support for them based on soundbite quotes and grinning at a camera I can understand. Support for their policies has to be on the basis of not having read them surely? I sincerely hope that whatever a voter's politics, whatever a voter's views, they have no policies that are either costed or treat all UK citizens equally. Neither makes them capable of running a government / whelk stall.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 11:12 AM

Having to agree with Musket here. Cor blimey guv'nor.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:21 AM

'if the minimum wage is that - the minimum necessary to live (exist?) on - why is it taxed?'

It's only taxed if the recipient works sufficient hours to bring their earnings above the personal tax allowance. If they don't reach that threshold, which for tax year 2013/4 is £9,440, they don't pay tax.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 12:41 PM

Yeah, guest, but 40 hours at 6.19 per hour, 50 weeks of the year (ie a full time job) is 12380.00.UK pounds

Which is taxed. And that's the minimum wage needed to live on according to the govvy. Not the acceptable living wage which is 3k or so higher.

The tax threshold should be at least 12380.10 . My gripe stands.

Paws


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM

I was the unnamed guest, forgot to reset my cookie.

"Yeah, guest, but 40 hours at 6.19 per hour, 50 weeks of the year (ie a full time job) is 12380.00.UK pounds

Which is taxed. "


No. Only the difference between £9,440 and £12,380 is taxed. The first £9,440 is free of tax (assuming the standard personal tax allowance applies).

I don't disagree with your argument that the minimum wage is inadequate, I'm just making the point that your original premise that the minimum wage is taxed is not quite correct, and that only part of it is taxed, if at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:53 PM

I suppose you can argue it either way. You can say people are taxed on their full income, but there are tax allowances that get taken off that, including one currently for £9440 for the first bit of income, or you can say that you are only taxed on the income over. And above £9440. It comes to the same thing.

One thing that does get blurred is the fact that when politicians in the present government preen themselves on taking people out of tax by raising the tax floor, as a counter to other cuts aimed at the poorest, that tax cut goes to everyone, including the very richest. If you didn't earn enough to pay tax at all, of course, none of that tax cut comes your way, while the benefit cuts certainly do. Most of any income tax cut is always going to go to people earning well above the new tax threshold.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:43 AM

Absolutely correct, McG, the 'taking x number of people out of tax' ruse is one that's been used by successive governments in an attempt to appear to be looking after the poor, but which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever for the poorest - those whose income is so low they don't pay tax anyway.

On a parallel with Wolfhound person's point above, it drives me nuts that I have to pay tax on my state pension - a clear case of the state giving with one hand and taking with the other! WTF? I paid tax in the form of national insurance for 49 years to build up a fund for my retirement, which they then tax again when I start to draw on it! Again I say, WTF?

Whatever happened to the basic principle of 'no double-taxation'?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:45 AM

Maybe I should make those bastards pay me in sausages - they'd have a problem trying to tax those!   :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:23 AM

Yes they can. VAT if it is sold hot. Tote tax if it contains traces of Shergar.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:29 AM

They'll do what they're doing here...start to 'co-operate' merge, and become the across the pond chapter of the New World Order....like it was all a bright new idea! New currency, and even a new form of money and financial transactions, new laws, new everything that will also suppress the people from ever being able to do a damn thing about it.

Me??..I'm just going to keep playing and composing.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:02 AM

Not just state pension.
You save money out of your taxed income and put it into a pension fund, and they tax it again when you draw it out!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:17 AM

Surely you get tax relief on pension contributions, don't you? Within limits. If so, private pension saving is treated more favourably than state pension saving.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 05:23 AM

"Not just state pension.
You save money out of your taxed income and put it into a pension fund, and they tax it again when you draw it out!"

Nope, not so. Your fund contributions are subject to tax relief, either by netting against the amount you pay in to the fund or by an increase to your tax coding. So you're only taxed once, i.e. when you draw out.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 01:42 PM

""Whatever happened to the basic principle of 'no double-taxation'?""

It never has existed is the short answer.

If you buy anything which is VAT rated (or purchase tax previously), you are paying a second tax on already taxed income.

If you drive a car you have for years been paying VAT on fuel duty, a double tax.

And if you save your pennies and leave more than a pittance when you pop your clogs, there are death duties on all that money on which you paid income tax, and tax on the interest accrued, a triple tax.

What basic principle?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 01:53 PM

As we are talking political parties. Surely the question is not how they raise taxes but how they spend it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:13 PM

It was a rhetorical question, Don, with more than just a touch of irony! :-)

Musket, there are two questions - both how they raise taxes and how they spend them - surely?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM

Surely you get tax relief on pension contributions, don't you? Within limits. If so, private pension saving is treated more favourably than state pension saving.

That "surely" mightily if you know your way round the system, like an accountant, or perhaps a lawyer. But most people, including me, haven't the faintest idea of how tax allowances and exemptions work. I suspect that most people could avoid any amount of tax if they knew all the nooks and crannies and fiddles that the rich use.

Here is a link to lovely. George Osborne advising people how to bleed the system - that was when he was in opposition of course < a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qjBec3fpBI&feature=player_embedded"> What a lovely man!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:48 PM

Granted. But you raise it in order to fund your ideas. The ideas are there to spend it.

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM

That blue clicky wasn't blue. This one should be a bit better - look at him sniggering about how "there are some pretty clever financial products" that he really shouldn't be telling ordinary people about. This was in 2009 - after the time that other "pretty clever financial products" had brought the world to its knees.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:05 PM

Actually I had another look - the date on which Osborne was saying that, with such a roguish giggle as he talked about the "pretty clever financial products", was in fact 15 May 2003.

That was at a time when his crooked friends in the City were still wrecking the place without being unmasked, and the Tories were crying out for still more deregulation of the financial casino. (And of course they were still swearing blind that no Tory government would ever cut benerfits or public services.)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:40 PM

Well said Mr Mcgrath....but we must not diminish the work of Messrs Blair and Brown in continuing the destruction.

In reality, "clever financial products" were all we had in the locker to keep this crazy economic and social system staggering on into a credit wilderness,

Politicians of all "brands" are simply tools...Marx said that this system would destroy itself....its is the natural progression of a system built on greed and financial inequality.

The strange thing is how long it took to come about, and the horror is what is to become of those who served it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM

I wouldn't dream of trying to diminish the work of New Labour in carrying on the Tory project for all those years, and preparing the way for the return of the Tory nightmare.

While I detest the Tories and despise the LibDems I despair for Labour.

But there is something particularly disgusting about the way the present shower have set out to demonise vulnerable people and to stir up a yob mob against "shirkers and cheats" - and at the same time they are themselves the worst cheats of all.

Not just in big ways, in shabby petty ways, as demonstrated in that clip - you only even become liable for inheritance tax if your estate comes to a very considerable sum. And only then if you aren't crafty enough to fiddle your way out of paying it, and to rip-off the state for the kind of benefits that are now being cut to pieces, because you have conned them you are poor.

And we should not forget that last year George Osborne, a millionaire, got caught travelling in a First Class compartment with a Second Class ticket. A well-heeled oik.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 03:38 AM

"That "surely" mightily if you know your way round the system, like an accountant, or perhaps a lawyer. But most people, including me, haven't the faintest idea of how tax allowances and exemptions work. I suspect that most people could avoid any amount of tax if they knew all the nooks and crannies and fiddles that the rich use."

Not really, Kevin. If you're paying in to an occupational pension scheme, or even a personal scheme, your employers or the brokers will have taken care of the tax-relief aspect, either by notifying HMRC of your entitlement to tax relief on your contributions, or by reducing the amount you actually pay in each pay-period by the tax relief amount, whilst the scheme providers credit your account with the full, un-reduced, contribution.

There's no need for Mr. Average-Contributor to know "all the nooks and crannies and fiddles" in respect of tax-relief on contributions to a pension scheme, that's what those accountants you mentioned are for. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 06:18 AM

The thread says UK political parties but so far the post seem only to deal with England. The Conservative and Liberal parties have all but disappeared already from Scotland, and as far as sausages go remember Burns:

Ye Pow'rs, wha mak mankind your care,
And dish them out their bill o' fare,
Auld Scotland wants nae skinking ware
That jaups in luggies;
But, if ye wish her gratefu' prayer
Gie her a haggis!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 06:54 AM

Indeed, Backwoodsman, we leave it to others and trust them to get it right, and the others in question aren't fiddling around with ingenious "pretty clever financial properties" to try and avoid paying taxes.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 08:29 AM

Well said Jim, but I wish Eck and Nick wid stick tae the "steemin' entrails" an' lee the cauld quiche alane!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 11:51 AM

Jim.

You are subject to Westminster. You are ultimately governed by a coalition of Conservative and Liberal Democrats, with Labour leading "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition."

If that weren't the case, people wouldn't be getting a stiffy rising from their kilts over a vote to be governed otherwise. The present Scottish Parliament is a legal instrument of Westminster and was signed into existence by a Minister's pen in Whitehall.

And can be unsigned too. But we English, who tolerate you (this is aimed at your compatriot above) have the good grace to give you the opportunity to bugger off. So long as my wife and I can still prop up your economy on our holidays without getting visas, that's fine by me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 11:55 AM

"Indeed, Backwoodsman, we leave it to others and trust them to get it right, and the others in question aren't fiddling around with ingenious "pretty clever financial properties" to try and avoid paying taxes."

Fair point, can't dispute that!

I would say, though, that I was one of the 'others' who always played a straight bat, and never got involved in the more dubious stuff that some of the other 'others' get up to! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 11:56 AM

That was me, BTW - damn this iPad!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 12:46 PM

Musket, I made a perfectly sensible comment about the state of affairs regarding political parties and your answer is a mild form of abuse. There was nothing in my reply suggesting any political motive but you have made yours perfectly,and rudely, clear. I'm sure the Scottish economy would be delighted to accept your hard earned money but your childish comments will be less welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 01:28 PM

It wasn't abuse Jim. It was fairly provocative yes, but pointing out the absurdity of saying Scotland doesn't have the mainstream political parties in any big way.

You do.

That is what the ruddy independence vote is all about!

There are many people south of the border who don't have Tory or LibDem MPs but still are governed by a coalition. The Scottish Parliament is, like it or lump it, a sub committee of Westminster. If it weren't, there would be no need for a vote, with or without a stiffy. (Mind you, the swingometer is another story.)

I didn't suggest political motive, I suggested arrogance. Arrogance in suggesting Scotland is not part of the UK political parties debate. It is until the people speak. My "childish" post was written in that way because I laughed at the smug "already a Haggis republic" stance that you posted. If you represented yourself wrongly, then fair enough, but I posted based on what you wrote..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM

I didn't suggest Scotland wasn't a part of the UK political parties debate ... on the contrary, I was pointing out that Scotland is governed from Westminter which has one Tory MP in Scotland. No arrogance, merely a statement of fact. The thread asks a question which I answered. You obviously deliberately misunstood or rather misconstrued a humerous poem by Burns (which I included to go along with the secondary debate regarding sausages). I suggest you recognise the humour of the poem rather than snide remarks about a haggis republic.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM

The place I come from doesn't have a Tory MP either and never has done.

Anyway. How come an almost illegible poem by the bloke who more than anyone linked Haggis with Scotland is recognisable humour but Haggis Republic isn't? I suppose the word dour is a Scottish one. Lighten up fer chrissake. You will get far more ridicule when Salmond starts the referendum speeches. Comics and commentators can't wait for his gaffes. Haggis Republic too much for you? Then how's about a Celtic Tiger and axis with Ireland and Iceland?

Oh. Alex beat me to it. Damn...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 07:10 AM

Musket, go          shoot yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:28 AM

Nae good Jim! :0(......it's completely impervious to irony.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:38 AM

Three points to me.

No need to shoot myself Jim. I don't qualify to vote and need to go back four generations before seeing my lot wearing skirts and blowing up a cat's arse.

But if you are being so touchy about someone pointing out Scotland is no different to any other geographical groupings of constituencies I can't wait for the referendum because I am allowed a view and that view is that it is a stupid idea formed by misty eyed historians who are in danger of inflicting misery on a hell of a lot of people if Scotland runs a pad saw between Berwick and Carlisle.

Uk parties for oblivion? At least their leaders see the dangers in getting smaller when business and economy depend on globalisation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 01:53 PM

Is Musket deliberately trying to encourage any Scottish Mudcatters to vote for leaving what would be left of theUnion.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:13 PM

That last one with a link wasn't from me.

Dunno what it is or whether I agree. Won't look at it on principle.

Only sans cookie cos phone won't hold them.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:31 AM

I `ad that Colonel Chinstrap in my cab this morning. `e was fair bristling with `is waxed moustache and `is swagger stick under `is arm.
I said, "Morning Colonel, What`s got you all `ot and bothered then?"
`e said, "I`ve been keeping tabs on the Mudcat, Jim. They`re going on about the politico Johnnies, left, right, centrists, sausages, taxes, duties, train fares. They`ve even got Jimmie bringing haggis and Rabbi Burns into the forum and yet not one of them has an inkling as to how or what to do to bring about meaningful change."
I said, " Fair dooz, Colonel, What`s your answer to it all then."
`e said, "Simple ,Jim. What we need is a Bloody Good War!!


Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:51 AM

Careful Jim!

That could all too easily be prophetic.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 08:13 AM

How about this, Don T!


England could have no choice but to bomb Scottish airports in order to defend itself from attack if Scotland became independent, the former Solicitor General for Scotland has warned.

Lord Fraser of Carmyllie said if Scotland was left undefended, the enemies of England could use it as a base from which to launch air raids over the border, The Herald reported.

"If that were to happen what alternative would England have but to come and bomb the hell out of Glasgow airport and Edinburgh airport," he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:49 AM

Stop fretting, it'll never happen. The intelligent, sensible majority in Scotland will tell the SNP where to shove its referendum and vote to remain in the Union.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:07 PM

Backwoodsman, as long as the Scottish public are deprived of truth (The McCrone Reort) you are perfectly correct.

McCrone report
The McCrone report was a dossier written in 1974 by Professor Gavin McCrone, a leading government economist, for the Conservative UK government into the viability of an independent Scotland.
The report predicted that North sea oil revenue would have given an independent Scotland one of the strongest currencies in Europe and a large tax surplus. On this basis, it went on to say that officials advised government ministers on how to take "the wind out of the SNP sails". The incoming Labour administration classified the document as secret over fears it could give a further boost to the SNP's policy of Scottish independence.[1][2][3]
Thirty years later oil production had peaked and during the decade to 2012 declined by 6% per year, though due to increasing oil prices the annual tax revenue take remains considerable, coming in at around £35 billion in 2011-2012.[4][5]
The dossier came to light in 2005 when the SNP obtained the report under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. The full provisions of the Act came into force on 1 January 2005.[1]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:13 AM

So long as voters are deprived of 'truth.'

Where have I heard that before.

Bloody hell. I started baiting our tartan correspondent purely because of the smug way he felt that UK political parties were irrelevant in a remote part of The UK.

Looks like I was onto something.   So you don't trust the intelligence of your compatriots to reach a decision without your prescribed literature?

McGraw of Harlow is right in his question above. Just that it isn't my comments that will wind up the voters. Is it Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:42 AM

We trust the intelligence of the Scottish people Ian, but I certainly dont trust the UK media or government to present the facts to them.

However, for the obstacles, I hope to see Scotland an independent nation once again.
Come independence, were going to make Jim Knowlege our national bard, as his whimsical humour seemes a bit to deep for the English.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:45 AM

I would have thought a 30 year old document even deeper...

Well you have your vote and you will exercise it based on your take. You claim in many other threads that you are swayed by cold facts so just make sure some of your rationale is more up to date and relevant. It's the money not the soundbites that count. Oblivion of political parties may be the title of this thread but long term irrelevance is already upon us.

Hence I remain bemused about an argument over whether a scone gets local cream.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:54 AM

""England could have no choice but to bomb Scottish airports in order to defend itself from attack if Scotland became independent, the former Solicitor General for Scotland has warned.""

Jesus H Christ!

You couldn't write that as a theme for a bloody sitcom.

I'm very pleased to see that idiot is a former Solicitor General.

They should increase his medication.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:48 AM

"Scotland is no different to any other geographical groupings of constituencies"

Scotland is not just a group of constituencies though. It is a nation within the union. Of course the UK parties are relevant here but the political landscape is totally different so I kind of get what Jim was getting at. As to your comments about haggis republic etc well they do verge towards the offensive side but as the debate within the Scotland itself is largely at least civil then no doubt we can live with someone on the sidelines making childish remarks. Your comments about you and your wife paying for Scotland are again simply not true. As to the Ireland and Iceland remarks then one can also point towards Norway. Ireland doesn't have Scotland's vast natural resources. Not all small countries have failed and not all larger ones are stunning successes - points towards Spain and Italy! As to the Westminster v Holyrood thing then yes theoretically the Westminster govt could wind up the Scottish Parliament tomorrow. Realistically though it is not an option which would be considered. It wasn't within Holyrood's powers to hold a binding referendum. Theoretically the UK govt could have blocked it altogether. Instead they chose to do no more than tinker with the details. Politically it wasn't an option to block it just as it wouldn't be an option to dismantle devolution against the will of the Scottish people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:55 AM

"I suggest you recognise the humour of the poem rather than snide remarks about a haggis republic"

The first verse of a MacDiarmid poem springs to mind as Musket continues to think he keeps Scotland afloat.


Tell me the auld, auld story
O' hoo the Union brocht
Puir Scotland into being
As a country worth a thocht.
England, frae whom a; blessings flow
What could we dae withoot ye?   
Then dinna threep it doon oor throats   
As gin we e'er could doot ye!
My feelings lang wi' gratitude
Ha'e been sae sairly harrowed
That dod! I think it's time
The claith was owre the parrot!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:56 AM

You are right about one thing though Allan. It isn't true about my wife and I paying for Scotland because I never ruddy well said that in this thread. You are listening to that chip on your shoulder rather than reading what I put. I reckon in another thread I may have asked the question, based on conflicting statistics leading to nobody being certain of their stance.

I have relatives in Norway, (ironically, they moved there from Edinburgh but I digress.) We shall see how that place pans out when they run out of gas and the EU don't have to pander to them any more. The Norwegian government reckon 2023...

If Haggis Republic is "offensive" I must remember that satire can always be classed as offensive. I suppose if you put your poem without translation, I can't find that quite as offensive hey? No matter. Haggis Republic isn't my original phrase anyway. Billy Connolly used it on his last tour...

If every inhabitant of the Hoots Mon! Och Aye The Noo' Wannabe Republic are going to be so touchy about being wound up, looks like I am going to enjoy the coming months.

Even Dick Gaughan took time out from siding with the Lairds and Gentry he reckons to despise in order to say, with a lovely sense of irony, "If the English want their independence, let them have it."

Political parties for oblivion? What price SNP after the referendum?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 05:06 AM

:0)....Good one Allen.....but I dont think MacDiarmid would have much truck with some of the career politicians who are steering the SNP

We need a bit more "heart and soul"....the revival was based on a new beginning, no more foreign wars, out of NATO,a start made on the irradication of poverty, drugs and the underclass.

We seem to be engaged in playing politics now and losing the support of the Scottish people. They are not unintelligent and can spot a careerist a mile away.

If we're not careful that revival will melt "lik sna' aff a dyke"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM

Sorry that was me...Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM

We?

The mist begins to clear...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 11:09 AM

Dont worry Ian....after a couple of hours I'm sure it will return as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM

Scotch mist?

I notice your mate has chosen the date for his pantomime. Did he check the diaries of all working tax paying citizens and find a dat when most of them are on holiday?

Never mind, don't forget the "UK political parties for oblivion" agreed to allow him his day in the international limelight. Just think on about that...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:43 PM

"If every inhabitant of the Hoots Mon! Och Aye The Noo' Wannabe Republic are going to be so touchy about being wound up"

On the contrary I said we can live with someone on the sidelines making childish remarks. Just wish you could maybe come up with something a but more inventive than the usual stereotype. Less boring.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 05:28 PM

Allan, I sat with MacDiarmid in a studio inGlasfow and recorded him reciting that and other poems. On the same LP The Legend and the Man, he recites another of his pems Scotland Small? He would have dismissed comical critics like Musket ..... elephants can have deals but fleas can't have elephants.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:43 AM

God, I should always check before posting. My iPad changes words when I'm not looking! I meant to write Elephants can have fleas but fleas can't have elephants.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookies
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:06 AM

Aye and English can have midges. Especially when on holiday in Scotland..

To be honest I wasn't sitting on the sideline. I feel Th UK should have a say in things that affect The UK and find it to be arrogant in the extreme for a few counties to try and declare UDI. Pooling resource and risk brings stability, as I have found and promoted in many areas such as business and public sector. Government is no different. So if you want something more inventive, then invent a currency. Keep sterling and ou need to pool economic strategy with the rest of The UK anyway so independence will have the effect of Scotland having less not more say in its economy. Get the Euro and ditto, only Frankfurt rather than Westminter. Invent a currency and you exchange the haggis for a banana.

On the other hand. Ripping the piss out of nationalists and other dinosaurs is fun, and actually has a social benefit. Helps to prevent modern outward looking people from taking the silly sods seriously.

Self determination? No. Just the one salary for the same politicians...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:12 AM

""I feel Th UK should have a say in things that affect The UK and find it to be arrogant in the extreme for a few counties to try and declare UDI.""

You don't feel that the UK already had its say when it chose to devolve government of Scotland to a Scottish Parliament?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:16 AM

I don't remember getting a vote on that, Don...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 03:04 PM

Self determination means just that. The inhabitants of Scotland will vote for that. The population of England is about nine time that of Scotland and could outvote Scotland on anything as has been done for the last 300 years. The government of the UK is determined by how England votes, hence the demand for self determination, an independent country.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 03:39 PM

The good people of Scotland will vote, yes.

Whether they vote to lose influence in matters of international importance or even economic matters affecting their currency of choice- the outcome hasn't been decided till the vote.

Mr McClean seems rather cock sure of himself. Me? I have more faith in the intelligence of the British people living in the northern end of the country. .

Don. Devolving to County councils, regional assemblies or whatever. Call them a parliament if you must but the powers are still at the parish pump level whilst ever Westminster and the city influence the value of your currency and provide you with defence. Most Scottish people realise that. Even the misty eyed nationalists. If they didn't they would be content with their bloated parish council.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 03:41 PM

"The inhabitants of Scotland will vote for that."

Well, not all us nasty English want you to leave Jim, as Scotland offers some balance to the south-east centric government of our countries and without a devolved English parliament (never going to happen as the collective guilt and for past actions and the fear of nationalism shackles the English psyche still) this domination by London and the south-east will become worse for the regions and Wales too.

Plus, I'm an old-fashioned sort who believes there is strength in diversity and the boundaries between our countries are the artificial constructs of the people who have exploited our differences rather than build on them. 2000 years ago there was no Scotland, England or Wales and all of us are descended from the people that lived here then (with other bits mixed in for spice), and the cultural fluxes of the ensuing years that have been absorbed into our culture and given us the wonderful regional differences we have no are built on those common foundations; foundations that go back tens of thousands of years and are strong and run very deep in all of us.

So forgive me if I see our politicians on either side of whichever wall, dyke or sea you live on as people of straw, short-sighted and unimaginative, tied to the tropes of empire or some romantic ideal that itself was propaganda of a sort. We're not all the same of course, but we're nowhere near as different as some would have usd think.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 03:53 AM

Sugarfoot Jack, This is not an anti English matter. You'll notice I said the inhabitants of Scotland. This means your vote would count if you lived in Scotland and were on the electoral roll. Free University education is also for the inhabitants, regardless of nationality. If Scotland and England were independent members of the EU then all people living in England could also be entitled to free University education in Scotland.
Independence would allow the people of Scotland to run Scotland, get rid of Trident, for example, and kept education etcetera free. Different countries, geographical units if you like, have different takes on matters and Scotland has shown it has progressive ideas it cannot put into practice as it cannot control its purse strings. With one Tory MP but having to put up with the coalition policies is just unfair. At least the people of England can decide their own government.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM

"and find it to be arrogant in the extreme for a few counties to try and declare UDI"

The country isn't at the moment trying to declare UDI. There is a debate within the country on whether we should go independent or not. It is called self determination. Whatever the outcome is (and I personally think that the No vote will almost certainly win) a big majority of the Scottish people favoured the principle that we had the right to choose. There is nothing arrogant about determining your future - the arrogance is in suggesting one shouldn't have such a right.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:51 AM

Then perhaps Salmond will give some overseas aid to North Lincolnshire to allow us to try a bit of self determination? Or any other parish for that matter.

Swapping deck chairs on The Titanic when you could be building lifeboats isn't about the outcome. It's about whether it was a good idea in the first place.

The boat shaped lump of concrete in Leith swallows enough of Scottish tax as it is, before actually doing anything..

If we keep Trident Scotland will still pay a fair share you prat. Defence isn't up for grabs ifi read the document correctly.

Out of interest I don't have a view either way. My view is a stage back. People will be asked to vote without full knowledge of facts and consequences. Both Salmond and in the red corner Darling have started with unrealistic porkies to justify their stance.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:02 AM

Scotland is a distinct nation and a constituent part of the UK and not a shire of a Greater England. There is just no comparison with North Lincolnshire or any other 'parish' as you put it. You may not like the fact that the Scots can determine their own future but there you go - that is life. I won't descend to the childish name calling!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:10 AM

"Different countries, geographical units if you like, have different takes on matters and Scotland has shown it has progressive ideas it cannot put into practice as it cannot control its purse strings."

Of course, and I'm not arguing against a referendum or self-determination (I'm solidly in favour of it) but I still don't want the Scots to leave the union, as I wouldn't the Welsh. If Scotland leave we'll be at the mercy of the south-easters until the year dot. Mind you, dump Trident and I'll be happy. As for electing our own government, it won't be an English government, it will still be the government of the United Kingdom.

Salmond is a little Scotlander in the same way so many English politicians are little Englanders. He's hardly a progressive, sucking up to Murdoch like a buttock-loving remora and disappearing up the arse of the execrable bully Donald Trump, whom he feted when Trump was trying build a golf resort for poshos that eventually trashed a coastline and whose lackeys still pursue appalling campaigns of intimidation against the local people.

Ah well, like Alan said, that's life. If it's so, good luck to Scots, I don't really blame them. Who want's to be ruled by the feckless tosspots we have in at the moment at Westminster. At least you'll be ruled by your own feckless tosspots.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM

There you are Ian, an object lesson on how to conduct yourself in debate.

Will it do any good?....I doubt it,as your main purpose here seems to be trying, unsuccessfully, to "wind people up".


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:52 AM

Thanks, Sugarfoot Jack, I am not a member of the SNP but believe in an independent Scotland to choose its own feckless tosspots or not as the case maybe. At least we'll have the opportunity.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 08:20 AM

Regarding an independent Scotland, here is something worth considering providing Parliament has the determination to implement it. The National Debt of the U.K.(as of the last quarter of 2012)is £1347 billion. Since the total population of the U.K.(that is from the Orkneys and Shetland to the Channel Islands) is, say, 65 million then that figure equates to a debt of £20,700 for every man, woman and child. Since the population of Scotland is 5 million at least then the first thing Alex Salmond would inherit, come a yes vote, is a national debt of £105 billion. I don`t think free BMW`s for all would be possible for some time!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:21 AM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:46 AM

I think you miscount, Richard.

Strictly speaking there aren't any significant UK parties already. All the main ones restrict themselves to the island Great Britain. If Scotland goes that would presumably change to Southern Britain, in the "United Kingdom of Northern Ireland and Southern Britain".

I'm pretty unsure where I stand on Scottish Independence. If I was in Scitland I'd certainly be for it, but it's not nice to think of living in a country likely to be permanently dominated by the South-East corner of England. And in time ever more so, as the North goes the same way as Scotland sooner or later...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:47 AM

Apologies Richard - I miscounted...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 12:33 PM

All countries have national debts and Scotland will be no exception. However being independent, it would be more able to manage this. With it's proper share of oil and gas revenues, large exports of food and drink, no Trident, a choice whether to fight in illegal wars or not a better GDP rating than the UK ... the old argument that we're too poor has been demolished and accepted even by Cameron and Darling. They NO attack is based on fear, scare mongering and negativity. Free BMWs for all might not be on the cards but crawling after Cameron or Farage is not on. Imagine even having Boris Johnson for PM?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:17 AM

"Ah well, like Alan said, that's life. If it's so, good luck to Scots"

Mind though Jack what I was referring to was not the outcome of the said referendum. It was just the principle that the Scots, as do everyone else, have the right to self determination. They have the right to choose. The vast bulk of Scots hold to that principle as does the UK govt and all the major political parties. Musket doesn't - well that's life!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:21 AM

"I don`t think free BMW`s for all would be possible for some time!"

Though that holds for both choices. We ain't gonna get BMWs by staying within the union either!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:18 AM

Musket does.
Actually
Which makes your blinkered stance all the more laughable.

Whether you want Boris Johnson or whether I want Alex Salmond is irrelevant. They both give good entertainment value. Thing is, only one of them is leading a whole set of counties on an adventure that is based on tradition and false hope rather than pragmatism.

As even Salmond wants defence to remain British, it is rather funny that Scotland will stop paying for Trident if the English, Welsh and Northern Irish people vote to get rid of it. Same as currency and economy. Unless you start a barter system, you either have to come up with a Micky McMouse currency or be linked to either Westminster or Frankfurt decisions. Decisions made in the interest of their voters.

Rather than dismiss the genuine concerns of many both sides of the border, why not launch your UDI manifesto on a website where more than just piss takers such as me will scrutinise them?

Oh and Akenaton. .. One advantage of Mudcat BS is that although I would turn my back on you in the pub or find a more respectable drinking pit, this forum is where humans and associated creatures can debate without the queasy unclean feeling you get when confronted with a bigot in the real world.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

How do you manage when shaving in the morning Ian?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM

"I feel Th UK should have a say in things that affect The UK and find it to be arrogant in the extreme for a few counties to try and declare UDI"

The above statement, alongside the other attitudes shown, does not equate with the idea that the people of Scotland should have self determination. There would be no worth in a union where continued membership of the said union was forced on one people by the opinions of the other people in the said union. That is accepted within the UK despite your apparent reluctance.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:40 AM

A bit hypocritical from a govt which has more or less ignored the crimes of the financial institutions?

It makes sense to regulate immigration, but disguises the real problem which is systemic.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM

Sorry John, that post was mine, I seem to be logged out most of the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sas cookie
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM

Even your cookie refuses to accept your bloody views... You have been logged out of most peoples' thinking since showing your true colours, and they ain't pink. I see an ugly bugger when I shave, but an ugly bugger who is at peace with himself. And others.

Of course any part of any country can look for self determination. I originate from an enclave within The People's Republic of Bolsover, but when your rationale is an historic border set up by the Romans and set aside 500 ish years ago, it is a bit silly saying the reasons for drawing the line in the sand are based on 21st century economics and politics. There are many who don't feel enfranchised by a government. We haven't ever had a Tory MP where I come from (or councillor for that matter) and the part of Surrey Mrs Musket comes from would set fire to any Labour would be knocking on their door.

Is self determination about realising the needs of a Morningside lunching lady or a crackwhore in a Glasgow tenement? Or perish the thought, may there be the prospect of debate as to how to govern the place in the interest of all?

I'm not for stopping it, in fact the sums appear to me that the city props up Scotland, North Derbyshire and Bolsover, much to the disgust of our tame beast. After all, it's years since I was selling machinery into Ravenscraig, and even the shale shakers going into Aberdeen seem to be from USA straight to ffshore, financially speaking. No, I'll be better off, thanks.

Mind you, as I interfere in The NHS these days, the Scottish principle is far more to my liking, but the model fals apart the further from Edinburgh you go, sadly.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:10 PM

Regrettably the contributors to the present government seem to have as little intention of serving the common good or "interest of all" (rather lining the pockets of the rich and those charging interest) as they have devotion to the truth - compare Danny Alexander's words on ATOS before the election with those now - despite ATOS killing steadily increasing numbers of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:57 PM

Fair comment Bridge. But is a gun a murderer?

The ATOS protocols and policies are to an agenda contracted on behalf of ministers. Oblivion is perhaps aspirational in the eyes of many? The fault you can lay firmly at the door of ATOS is the inability to distinguish between people made vulnerable through medical circumstances and those for whom benefits are a given. The latter is a smaller number than ministers and newspaper editors think..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:58 PM

Would Scottish independence mean the rest of us would be rid of Danny Alexander?

Looking at a map, the island looks a very unwieldy shape for a country. Dividing it more or less at the border looks pretty sensible. The advantantages to Scotland of the Union seem pretty shaky. Scandinavia seems to work pretty well with amicable political separation between the countries concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:17 PM

" I see an ugly bugger when I shave, but an ugly bugger who is at peace with himself. And others."

Only one third right as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:09 PM

Racist cunt Scameron is. Cuntservatives have for decades prevented the building of social housing.

Musket or whoever you were before going into hiding, a gun with a mind can be guilty of murder, and "Befehl ist Befehl" aka "Only following orders" is not a defence - or at least it was not at Nuremberg.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:49 PM

Perhaps "the People's Assembly" will provide a valid alternative to present Labour ("conservative-lite") party.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:41 AM

Which dozy bugger keeps posting a link to yahoo in my name?

I suppose any solicitor could explain the difference between following orders and accepting an invitation to articulate and advocate a stance you may not agree with. After all, it is the job of a solicitor to do do. Likewise ATOS signed a contract to do this work.

Still, they seem to veer between incompetency and callousness so fulfilling the needs of ministers. ..

Sorry, can't ignore it. People's assembly? The older you get the dafter your posts. Shoot me before I get there. What's in it for me? Why would I vote for it? Or any other sane person for that matter.

Silly sod


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:52 AM

Try to keep up whoever you were.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/how-the-peoples-assembly-can-challenge-our-suffocating-political-consensus--and-why-


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:05 AM

Are you like me? Only read The Indescribablyboring because they aren't charging for their phone app?

Here, if The Financial Times was free, would you spout a different perspective?

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM

Signing as a GUEST is more or less an open invitation to impersonators using the same name.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:24 AM

I know it is. And once I can get my bloody phone to retain cookies all will be well. it has extra security features enabled to allow seeing my secure emails, save me taking the work laptop around with me.

Instead it is the difference between being sat in the study or anywhere else in the world as to whether I am signed in or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:08 AM

"but when your rationale is an historic border set up by the Romans and set aside 500 ish years ago,"

Well of course the border wasn't set up by the Romans and neither was it set aside 500 years ago. The Scottish and English kingdoms were formed into a single kingdom just over 300 years ago. That is by the by though as the vast majority of the Scottish people still regard themselves as a national people and regard Scotland as a distinct country within the union. The border as such still exists. Some wish to remain in the union - others wish to end it. It is a democratic choice. As for me being logged out of most people's thinking that is just silly. The vast majority of Scots were in favour of the referendum. None of the major British political parties seek to deny the Scots the democratic choice as to what they want. It is you who is totally out of kilter.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM

Musket you are a fool. You clearly had no idea what the People's Assembly was. I enlightened you. You should thank me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM

Im a fool alright. A fool for humouring your original post. I did say that I read The Independent so not really needing enlightening, even if you break your professional code and not bother charging me for doing so.

I am fully aware of Mr Whittam Smith's crusade. Just didn't want to miss the opportunity to have a laugh. Your armchair socialism can be amusing at times.

Ok, back to tartan matters.   I was out by 200 years and I promise to take a loaded gun into the ante room this very second.   

Regarding giving people choice. You will find that the reason the vote was allowed was more to do with the Westlothian problem and its effect on England rather than Cameron & co having any regard for the wishes of Scottish voters. After all, how many tory votes are there in Scotland.   

Interesting that contributers above waffle on about student fees etc when such things only got through due to Scottish MP votes. When Bonaparte mentioned perfidious Albion, he wasn't wrong. Give or take 400 miles or so.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:09 AM

If you don't like the People's Assembly, how about Left Unity? Or is that off your radar too, plutocrat?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:45 PM

Is plutocrat designed as an insult? Most people, having worked their bollocks off to have a comfortable retirement would say "job done" if they managed that position..

Left Unity? Howsabout Left....... my flat cap with my lamp and tallies when I left the pit? (I recall that your mask slipped once on another thread and questioned whether a mining engineer is "professional.") You see, some pigs being more equal than others fits well with your "I'm a professional, therefore you're not" attitude. As I said, your armchair socialism is somewhat amusing at times. All equal, eh brother?

No, I'm not a plutocrat. I looked it up just to be sure and it doesn't apply I'm afraid. Might have been in a small way before I sold up and buggered off, but no. I'm not a plutocrat. I've just taken a new challenge and as of next week, I can be despised under another title, as over paid senior public sector. Just think, you can sit next to Jeremy Hunt and lambast me. There's a thought....

zzzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:39 PM

Sleep tight!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:08 PM

You really are stupid if you do not understand the word "professional".


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:25 PM

Shshhhh, Richard, don't wake him up!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:01 AM

"when such things only got through due to Scottish MP votes"

I agree with you there - it is an imperfect devolution settlement. No-one much would really argue with that. SNP members at Westminster don't vote on what are regarded as English only matters. So generally you can blame the main unionist parties for the discrepancies. Even at that I think there has only been something like two occasions where the Scottish Labour vote actually made any difference in Westminster - whilst in the same period when Labour were the main party in both parliaments they passed dozens (something like 60 odd)of measures at Westminster which should have been devolved matters. Independence of course would end any member from a Scottish constituency voting in Westminster. Even the most popular option in Scotland (ie devomax) which the unionist parties and British govt refused to have on the voting paper could well have gone towards sorting these anomalies. Again the SNP were happy to consider having that option on the paper. You shouldn't really expect me to defend a status quo I don't personally support!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:31 AM

"I was out by 200 years and I promise to take a loaded gun into the ante room this very second."

Well if you're going to dismiss the idea of Scottish self determination by quoting facts and dates then one would expect them to be at least close or they are going to be picked up on. 200 years is a long time to add on when the true figure is just over 300. It's not like you were out by a decade or so. At the other end you were even further out by suggesting the Romans set up the border. Especially on the eastern half the border is nowhere near any Roman frontier. The early emerging kingdom of Alba came into being around half a millennium after the Romans had left and the what resembles the present border was more of an 11thC century event at earliest. Of course history affected how the numerous early Dark Age kingdoms came about - but the Scottish nation as such was forged more like three quarters of a millennium after the Romans had left.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:04 AM

Too late. Wide awake and staring like an owl.

Bridge, the only time I have ever felt somewhat concerned by your outpourings was when you claimed mining wasn't a profession. Assuming soliciting is...

Just clashes wonderfully with your workers of the world arise bollocks.

Allan, just to be serious for a moment. Surely in the globalisation of commerce, the indifference to parochial concerns by the vast majority of people and the risk of being marginalised when smaller, the Scottish residents deserve a more balanced perspectivethan SNP and their agenda are supplying?

Replacing Westminster idiots with Leith idiots coupled with less influence on the value of currency, defence etc just seems to me a bad idea. As I said before, if it is s good thing for Scotland ergo it cannot be a good thing for The UK. If, and I mean if.. that is the case, then the argument for sel determination would include a UK wide vote.

Looking at the size of the Scottish public sector, I feel relieved that is a huge if....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM

FFS Musketballs - LOOK IT UP!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:34 AM

What in fuck is the benefit to Scotland in replacing Trident?
Or in spending our taxes supporting fanatical Jihadists in north Africa?

UK foreign policy is a crazy nightmare, we need to step back and decide on the most important course of action, not follow Blair's mantra of acting because "its just the right thing to do"

The views of the Scottish people are unlikely to be represented by a Westminster govt, we are two separate nations with very different political histories.

That being said, Mr Salmond must be honest, the rejection of nuclear weapons on Scottish soil and the refusal to offer up our young people in conflicts like Iraq and Libya will mean complete withdrawal from NATO and there is no point in pretending otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:50 AM

Meanwhile, the People's Assembly seems to be attracting support, the wolves are circling in the conservative party, no-one has a good word to say for the limp-dems (and who cares anyway, their only interest is in the case of a hung parliament) and the labour party is riven by its unspeakeable decision to support retrospective legislation against claimants and to override a Court of Appeal decision. UKIP continues to be a joke except to people who actually like nazi uniforms and a little Englander mentality.

WTF is there that anyone with conscience could support? Is "Left Unity" a serious prospect?

http://leftunity.org/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:29 AM

OK. I bite.

I actually agree with all Bridge's withering remarks concerning the present political parties, to a point. I wouldn't dismiss Labour on the basis of one policy statement.

If there is scope for a left unity, then it can only be balanced by a right unity of sorts (UKIP?) to give voters a clear option. All three present parties have drifted to what they consider the middle ground, but in doing so make choice of government less clear. Notwithstanding the advent of "professional" politicians leading to risk averse debate coupled with the tories reaching out to their less palatable wing. Not that Milliband would ever reach out to socialists, perish the thought......

The problem with left vs right is that the left couldn't sustainably fund a social programme and the right wouldn't wish to.

That logic would have us all LibDems.. No, think again Musket.

I suppose there would be less chance of contentious legislation getting on the books if Scottish MPs no longer voted on matters not affecting Scotland?

UP THE SNP!!!!!!

(And right up without a paddle...)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:18 PM

Good heavens. Do I sense rapprochement?

IMHO the problem with that model is that Labour are at present not materially left of centre and arguably rid of centre (sorry Red Ed, but you disappoint me) whereas the Con-Dems are a lot right of centre, the conservatives alone very right of centre, and UKIP pretty much BNP-lite.

Socialist Labour Party and SWP etc are not effectively present in the model.

A left unity would give a clear alternative to the present right (and it seems to me very right) wing conservatives and coalition.   If viewed in that light it could leave Labour occupying the middle ground pretty much alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:50 PM

To drift a little, in response to Musket's comment that 'If there is scope for a left unity, then it can only be balanced by a right unity of sorts (UKIP?) to give voters a clear option'.

'Choice' in politics need not require a great divergence in left/right terms. There is plenty of room for disagreements about how to achieve shared views. The problem isn't really so much that all our parties compete for 'the centr ground' but rather that the centre ground has migrated rather too far to the right.

However it is fair to point out that pretty well all parties in Britain would count as left in US - or 'liberal' in their quaint local usage.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:26 AM

I had fun in a bar in Jackson Wyoming a few years ago. A local was explaining how "commies" were taking over the world and the free world had to be ready to repel them. I asked him to describe a commie. He did. I said that therefore Tony Blair is a commie. it says something that he thought Blair and Thatcher were of the same party.

Left vs right isn't a fair divider these days as although we may say lack of choice, it can also be seen as the passage of time has given us a consensus. We risk mistaking incompetence for dogma.

Bridge's coalition of the right scenario does not quite fit as the LibDem element is no more than a prostitute nailing their flag to any mast to eak through their policies by stealth that they could never achieve by election. You could say that is how many other countries work and act as a brake on the more radical larger party in power. Problem is, I don't see exactly what they have helped modify? Too many government policies go against everything Liberals ever stood for, and indeed the present lot stood for in the past election.

Socialist Labour Party and SWP are not effectively present because they could never be effective. The electorate may watch Big Brother and seem fascinated by celebrity and red top newspapers, but overall, people take politics seriously enough to know that you cannot get elected by looking at one end of the swingometer. Hence neither they nor UKIP, BNP etc will ever amount to more than the odd frustration vote.

I don't think politics is dead just yet. It needs 50mg of adrenaline every five minutes as per guidance, but the heart is just about beating.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:08 AM

The problem with UKIP is they are beginning to influence government policy, as announced by Cameron last week introducing his ludicrous immigration legislation. This is bad news, and the drift further into the politics of hate that started with the non-election of the tories looks to continue for some time; nasty, hateful little men in crap suits telling us we're a soft touch when it comes to accepting johnny foreigner in to take our jobs, homes and welfare.

Part of the problem of modern politics is democracy is conflated with capitalism and this makes socially responsible policies that don't generate income look like some sort of government-imposed idea designed to fleece those it's not aimed at of their tax quids. Ludicrous of course, but inevitable in a country where we are less citizens and more consumers (an explicit aim of Thatcherism) and we are less engaged in the welfare of society as a whole. The destruction of the NHS is a case in point, and one day we'll all wonder why we weren't rioting on the streets to save our societies most valued public service.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:08 AM

The problem with UKIP is they are beginning to influence government policy, as announced by Cameron last week introducing his ludicrous immigration legislation. This is bad news, and the drift further into the politics of hate that started with the non-election of the tories looks to continue for some time; nasty, hateful little men in crap suits telling us we're a soft touch when it comes to accepting johnny foreigner in to take our jobs, homes and welfare.

Part of the problem of modern politics is democracy is conflated with capitalism and this makes socially responsible policies that don't generate income look like some sort of government-imposed idea designed to fleece those it's not aimed at of their tax quids. Ludicrous of course, but inevitable in a country where we are less citizens and more consumers (an explicit aim of Thatcherism) and we are less engaged in the welfare of society as a whole. The destruction of the NHS is a case in point, and one day we'll all wonder why we weren't rioting on the streets to save our societies most valued public service.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM

So right he said it twice!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM

Not sure how that happened. Sorry for repeating myself!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:22 AM

"it says something that he thought Blair and Thatcher were of the same party."

Well, in many senses of the word he was quite right.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:19 PM

"then the argument for sel determination would include a UK wide vote."

A UK wide vote would not be Scottish self determination as Scottish voters only make up 9% or so of the UK electorate. You either believe in people's right to self determination or you don't. Luckily the UK does.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:23 PM

"Luckily the UK does"

Having learnt it the hard way...

I think there might be some case for an English referendum - not with any kind of veto on parts of the Disunited Kingdom separating if they wish, but on whether they wish them to remain. A vote in England on whether Northern Ireland should continue to be part of the Union would make some sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:14 AM

That's the problem with self determination.

If Scotland would benefit or not by destroying the union cannot be discussed without at least wondering whether there would be any effect at all on those left.

So.. what price self determination for England if a vote by others affects the stability of the place?

Oh. I'm making an assumption England would be worse off. The evidence doesn't actually point to that, does it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:36 AM

I totally agree that England has the same right to self determination as anyone else does and in reality should England leave the union then sheer demographics would mean that the union would be at an end. However you're getting into a whole different ball game in the last sentence if the English are deciding who else should remain in or leave the union. Again the UK's govt's stance has been that the people of Northern Ireland can remain within the union as long as the majority of people there wish to do so. I can't imagine that stance is likely to change either by holding them to the union or expelling them from the union against their wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:56 AM

It appears from the recent announcement from the BP consortium that there WILL be a second oil boom so the YES campaign was right.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 06:24 AM

BP have been buying up land near Berwick upon Tweed. Seriously! (Source - The Week, w/c 4 March 2013.)

Just thought I'd point that out. If you are basing your economy on a multinational conglomerate, you are as daft as those in HM Treasury in Whitehall.

Anyway, what price democracy? Scotland may only be 9% of the population, but North Lincolnshire is less than 0.02%. Neither of us are big enough nor powerful enough to get our way unless we go it alone. And if we did go it alone, we'd see that percentage influence drop even further in the international arena.

be careful what you vote or, you might end up getting it....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:38 AM

The case for maintaining the Union is much the same as the case would be for amalgamating the various Scandinavians nations into a Greater Sweden. It's not completely irrational, but not too persuasive.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:59 AM

No problem with maintaining or not maintaining the union as such. I suppose, in the spirit of the thread, being the effectiveness and relevance of UK political parties, my point overall is that globalism in terms of where the wealth is generated is not well dealt with by dividing political influence ever smaller.

Sounds a bit federalist, I know. But being quite heavily involved in The NHS, and seeing how "self determination" through setting up foundation trusts and introducing "any willing provider" has had a disastrous effect on the quality of delivery, the adage "big is beautiful" can have its uses.

And before our friends point out the NHS structure north of the border, I would like to point out that Salmond is signed up to the same opening of markets as Westminster, and eventually he shall have to tell people that has to include NHS... It is a promise made at the G8.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 09:05 AM

I dont base my support for independence on being financially better off.
If we continue to think in these term then we really ARE terminally fucked.

Anybody who thinks that Western economies can be made prosperous again, are seriously deluded .....the resourses have all been stolen, the people all exploited, Capitalism has run its course for the developed nations. We were the lucky ones who hitched a lift on the last lifeboat as the Titanic sank.

Unfortunately our children and grandchildren are left thrashing about in the icy water.......but who cares eh?....Were going to get "Gay Marriage" and "human rights" for every bloodthirsty fanatic.

Time to think about how we can provide a purpose in life after "MONEY", for our kids....A little inspiration is required, something Ian knows nothing about, everything is measured in pounds and pense.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 09:42 AM

Money is very important to any natiion seeking self determination. But, more importantly, what is done with it. The economic argument against an independent Scotland has been demolished but total fiscal control is necessary to implement fairness for the Inhabitants of Scotland and the future of their children., free health care, free education, help with transport costs. ....   Scottish Indepence is not a William Wallace cry for "Freedom" or a glorification of Bannockburn ... it's about establishing a just Scotland which can get rid of Trident and Westminster cuts like the bedroom tax and for this we need to be financially sound and prove it to the Jeremiahs of the Unionist parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 10:26 AM

Have a wee look

True?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 10:38 AM

Gay rights for every blood thirsty fanatic. ...

Dear Jim and Allan,

This person will be getting a vote.

Just thought I'd point that out.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:08 PM

Didn't the English educational system teach you how to read Ian?

Its quite simple really, instead of the UK govt addressing the issues affecting the lives of millions of our young people, we get the initiative on "gay marriage" and a whole raft of "rights" issues including the defence of one fella who wishes to rid the world of infidels......it's called a "liberal" distraction.

We need some completely new ideas on how to motivate our people, especially our young folks, and developing a pride in our nation is an excellent start. Great Britain never was "great"...Except at practicing piracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM

Sorry all....that was me...Ians friend! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:19 PM

Jim....Cant get the video to open, i'll try later and get back to you...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:26 PM

Liberal distractions? Does that include the Lockerbie bomber in err.. a Scottish court?

Pride in your nation eh? Gay Pride marches? Do they count? Scotland has had a tradition in my lifetime of liberalism despite a rather odious sectarian heritage, especially in the central belt.

If young people give a stuff about nationalism, it would be as an excuse for venting steam, not cuddling the flag of St Andrew. Nationalism is an issue in many countries, and right wing tosh isn't going to light any "young" candle, unless it is a free download on Kindle.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:43 PM

Ake, it opens for me but here is the full URL. http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=8w4PoQbgUiA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8w4PoQbgUiA


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:38 AM

"Great Britain never was "great"...Except at practicing piracy."

Great Britain is a geographical term, not a political one.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:47 AM

"Nationalism is an issue in many countries" You're probably going to baulk at this but your own views show "to me anyway" a rather strong nationalist stance towards the current British state. And it is a form of nationalism which seems to seek to deny other peoples (ie as in national peoples) the basic right of self determination. You seem to suggest that the current national borders are somehow inviolate whatever the wishes of the peoples within these borders may be. Also I'm sorry but that the idea that the wishes of a minority nation within a wider union to self determine their future path should be ignored in case it affects the majority nation within the said union smacks of colonialism. And it is totally out of kilter with both general Scottish opinion, as well as the UK govt's stance, and I imagine the vast bulk of English opinion too.

Obviously the UK govt wants to maintain the current UK. National states don't tend to like seeing great chunks of their territory depart. However I don't see what option they had other than to allow the referendum and argue their point! Had they denied the Scots the right to determine their future then it would only have greatly bolstered the nationalist cause within Scotland and would have made Scottish independence a more likely outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:56 AM

"Great Britain is a geographical term, not a political one"

Surely it is both? It certainly has a political usage. James VI of Scotland used it in a political sense when he succeeded to the English throne. Then in 1707 when the Scottish and England kingdoms ceased to exist as separate distinct kingdoms the new kingdom created was officially named Great Britain as stated in Article One of the Act of Union.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:32 AM

Don't blame the Tories altogether....The labour party in power encouraged unregulated immigration...." to make this country more competitive in the global economy"

Never ever forget these words, as they are code for what our govts really think about freedom, democracy, equality, etc.

I remember these days and how anyone who opposed these policies was branded a racist bigot on this forum.

Even me, a lifelong radical socialist, called names by "liberal" Quizlings!   Scotland....get on wi' ye!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 12:20 PM

My dear Akenaton. You are branded a racist bigot on the strength of what you post, not on the politics of others.

Allan. You detect wrong. Don't confuse a desire not to dissolve into factions with admiring the status quo. If anything I suppose I am a European at heart. A common market requires a common currency and a common currency requires further integration. That is why the euro is not quite delivering as it should. Far from being a UK nationalist or whatever you think I am, I find all nationalism repugnant at the moral level and increasingly irrelevant at the economic level.

We should celebrate the differences rather than promote our own. Yes Scotland does have an identity and so does Yorkshire. Surrey is surreal from where I come from and my Surrey born wife saw more in common with her background when she lived in Edinburgh than when she moved to Sheffield.

I was happy in Dublin, less so in Munich. Happy as pigs in poo here in North Lincolnshire. Moving further from each other makes little sense to me. Where reason fails, piss taking is the British way. Gawd bless her. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 01:52 PM

By comparing Yorkshire to Scotland Musket shows his total ignorance and hence his reason for "piss taking" as he calls it. This not piss taking, it has merely provided a showcase for his total puerile stupidity. Stop digging, Musket, and find yourself another hole.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:34 AM

"find all nationalism repugnant at the moral level and increasingly irrelevant at the economic level."

Well if you find nationalism repugnant then why are so against Scots deciding whether they want to be continued to be ruled from Westminster or not? You say you are a European yet it bothers you that some people simply want Edinburgh to have its own voice at the European table. If you don't care about nationalism then why are so keen that Scots shouldn't get the chance to decide if they want to remain British nationals or not. Some people simply see Westminster as being the increasingly irrelevant and unnecessary tier of govt. There is absolutely no reason to think that the Scots and the English could only work together on a European level if the former is ruled from Westminster.

Your continual equating Scotland with either Yorkshire or Lincolnshire etc just doesn't fit. Lincolnshire is a county in England. The comparison for Scotland would be somewhere like Ayrshire - not the country of Scotland itself. You either don't understand how most Scots (whether they support independence or not) perceive and identify themselves or you don't care.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:14 AM

"We should celebrate the differences rather than promote our own"

Why can we only celebrate the differences if we are ruled politically from Westminster? In my experience those (for example) in the Scottish folk music community on average veer towards the YES camp more than the Scottish population as a whole. They would also be, in my experience, more open to English or Welsh folk music than the Scottish population as a whole. So I just don't get your point there.

Plus to celebrate the differences we have to first recognise them. You are still equating Scotland with various English counties and not even recognising it as a distinct nation within the wider union. How is that celebrating anything?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:51 AM

Lincolnshire is indeed a County but I never mentioned it. I don't live there or have any links there any more than Ayrshire.

Scotland is a country by tradition and history and so is Danelaw for that matter. Edinburgh having its own seat at the table sounds good in one breath but the loss of influence for such a small population, GDP etc is of concern. Assuming The EU allows entry. The days of plenty for small countries is over. Ireland infrastructure and Greek excess have been replaced with austerity.

If Scotland would be oil rich on its own, the cost of EU membership would go up. You can't have it all ways. North Lincolnshire is a collection of constituencies. Scotland is a collection of constituencies. England is etc etc. Any one set is less than the whole. The whole can influence on behalf of the set.

My view and as Scottish politicians reckon there are benefits in what you vote, I as any other UK resident have a legitimate view to air. I don't have to keep my fried Mars bar in my sporran to air it either Jim..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:23 AM

"Then perhaps Salmond will give some overseas aid to North Lincolnshire to allow us to try a bit of self determination? Or any other parish for that matter."

The above was posted in your name. If it wasn't you who actually posted it then it makes no difference as in more recent posts you've used Yorkshire as the comparison. Whichever English county you use there is still not a comparison.

Likewise the idea that an independent Scotland would lose influence in Europe is a pretty iffy claim. At the moment we have no direct say at all and are represented by a govt who are not representative of the Scottish nation. To put it in perspective the UK has 29 votes in the European Council. Ireland has 7. Scotland has none. An independent Scotland would have 7 votes and Scots would be represented by people they actually voted for and who were acting in specifically Scottish interests. The rest of the UK would at worst lose 1 vote so overall our islands would have more influence and not less. Not necessarily a reason one would vote YES for but just shows the weakness of your statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:29 AM

"Scotland is a country by tradition and history and so is Danelaw for that matter"

Just another silly anglocentric comparison. Scotland isn't equivalent to a former region of what became England. Scotland is equivalent to England itself. Both countries have long histories and developed into long term established European kingdoms where a sense of nationhood gradually developed. Scotland has its own comparisons to the Danelaw, or the earlier kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia etc. ie the likes of Pictland, Dalriada, Strathclyde etc


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:13 AM

You fell straight into it you silly bugger.

You ask me to respect Scotland as an identity then confuse North Lincolnshire with Lincolnshire. Two distinctly different places. One in the North the other in the Midlands.

Fits my point exactly. Geographical concerns and cultural concerns fit the vote but hard nosed economical considerations fit the outcome.

Anyway, I apologise for occasionally trying to inject reason. I promised to just take the piss. So long as you keep the place looking nice for when I visit on holiday and the value of my Edinburgh flat stays high, I have no complaints. I just hope the tenants will continue paying in sterling....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:04 AM

I make no claims as to knowing the intricacies of changing administrative areas througout England. Anymore than I'd expect every English person to know the difference between Roxburgshire, Roxburgh District, or the Borders Region etc as to where I live. That is not the point as I said whichever shire is used it is still no comparison to the Scottish nation.

As to supposed humour. Well none of that disguises the fact that you seem to claim to not be a nationalist yet come over as a type of Britsh Nationalist who would seek to deny the minority nations within the UK the right to determine for themselves whether they should be in the union or not.

You suggest we should celebrate the differences yet you don't recognise, or don't care, that Scots have on the whole a completely different identity as far s their nationality goes. Only something like 11% of Scots describe themselves as "Britsh not Scottish" or "more British than Scottish" and though the figures are not broken down, by experience I'd suggest that a fair share of this 11% refers to migrants from other parts of the UK. We of course have multiple identities including being European, British, Borderers or Kelsonians or whatever, and people feel these identities to different degrees, but the more principle identity as far as nationaility goes is Scottish. That is the same for those who wish to stay in the union as it is for those who wish to leave. That is a democratic choice for us to make. The fact that some bloke on the internet thinks we should be denied that democratic choice is neither here nor there.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:46 AM

What differences? Is it the kilt? ginger hair?

If you find the bloke on the Internet who would deny you the choice, refer him to me if you don't mind. I would point out to him that there is a difference between denying a vote and hoping the vote denies narrow minded nationalism its day.

I welcome the vote. I think that Salmond is a protest vote that backfired and his ridiculous stances are an embarrassment. I wonder if his celtic tiger will be back from the vets in time for the final campaign? No matter what the outcome, you can look forward to his blaming the Scottish people when he loses or the malign influence of Westminster if he wins.

Hoots Mon!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:17 AM

You objected to the idea that the Scots, and only the Scots, should have a vote in the referendum. That is you objected to the fact that we should have self determination. That is you objected to the vote as it stands. It is all there within the thread.

Still depsite your opinions in regard to wishing to deny other people the right to self determination we do at least know that you are a great undiscovered comedy genius. Ginger! Haggis! Kilts! No playground stereotyping there.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:27 AM

I object to not having a say in something that affects me, yes. It's called self determination. ..

If the UK isn't going to be affected then Salmold is selling you a pup.

Wait! I haven't got started on Glasgow alcoholism or Edinburgh heroin yet! Plenty of comedy there. Or just stick to ginger pubes, sporrans and deep fried curly wurly.

You tell me then. What is the difference between my stereotyping and your national identity assertion? Other than your sincerity versus my idle bemusement?


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