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Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)

Tradsinger 23 Mar 13 - 06:17 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Mar 13 - 07:13 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Mar 13 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,Frug 23 Mar 13 - 08:16 PM
DebC 23 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM
Sandra in Sydney 23 Mar 13 - 09:32 PM
DebC 23 Mar 13 - 09:51 PM
Maryrrf 24 Mar 13 - 01:41 AM
Uncle Tone 24 Mar 13 - 02:53 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Mar 13 - 03:30 AM
Tradsinger 24 Mar 13 - 04:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Mar 13 - 05:50 AM
r.padgett 24 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM
Uncle Tone 24 Mar 13 - 06:17 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Mar 13 - 01:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM
r.padgett 24 Mar 13 - 03:30 PM
Tradsinger 24 Mar 13 - 03:52 PM
Uncle Tone 24 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM
matt milton 24 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM
Murray MacLeod 24 Mar 13 - 05:32 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Mar 13 - 06:21 PM
Joe Offer 24 Mar 13 - 06:29 PM
Tradsinger 24 Mar 13 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Guest, Poxicat 24 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Banjiman 24 Mar 13 - 06:57 PM
Maryrrf 24 Mar 13 - 07:27 PM
matt milton 24 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM
matt milton 24 Mar 13 - 08:14 PM
GUEST,Lavengro 24 Mar 13 - 09:54 PM
Maryrrf 24 Mar 13 - 11:27 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Mar 13 - 03:48 AM
GUEST,Lavengro 25 Mar 13 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Jenti 25 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM
Phil Edwards 25 Mar 13 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,not cynical 25 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,Lavengro 25 Mar 13 - 07:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Mar 13 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,SJ Lepak 25 Mar 13 - 09:18 AM
Uncle Tone 25 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM
Tradsinger 25 Mar 13 - 09:28 AM
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Subject: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Tradsinger
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:17 PM

I hope no-one will mind my bit of self-promotion on this forum. The time has come for me to stop hiding my light under a bushel. I would really like to get out and do some gigs on the folk scene and have some things to offer:

•        Many years of learning songs and tunes directly from source singers in England, Wales and the States.
•        Many songs and tunes learnt directly from traveller singers, especially the Brazil and Smith families of Gloucestershire, including songs in Romany dialect or diddling for step dancing.
•        A repertoire of classic folk songs, ballads, comic songs, drinking songs, the occasional music hall song and lots of choruses to join in with
•        Unusual songs and versions
•        Many of the songs accompanied by melodeon or sometimes by concertina plus quite a lot unaccompanied.
•        Appalachian ballads with frailing banjo

Having spent so much time looking at the old tradition rather than the revival, I feel that the experience helps me to get 'under the skin' of traditional English folk song.

I am not looking at all for large fees, just the opportunity to share my songs with wider audiences.

The sort of venue that would suit me best would be a club or festival that appreciates the traditional side of the folk scene. Clubs that feature mainly singer/songwriters are not my thing.

Over the years, I have been in several groups, and some videos can be found on Youtube by searching for frailer46. I have a website through which you can contact me or would welcome email enquiries.. I live in Gloucestershire which is well-placed to head off in any direction.

Hope to hear, then

Many thanks

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:13 PM

Are they all you?


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:22 PM

Mods - I do have a question. To a poster of this kind, frankness is important but if one's views were to be less than favourable, it might be thought discourteous and start a flame war. Can we be assured that if deleting our cookies to express frank opinions we will not be "outed". Otherwise it would be, as young people say today, "awks".


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 08:16 PM

Well I guess one way is to provide links to your Youtube and to post these on the various festival websites where they recruit performers. However think its late in the day for this year as most of these are tied up well in advance. You might however get a take up for workshop sessions given the breadth of your portfolio. Similarly plug the links with clubs who have web sites - usual slog ....


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: DebC
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM

A name should be mandatory if one is seeking performance opportunities.

Just my opinion and not worth anything.

Debra Cowan


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:32 PM

I met Gwilym when he was in Australia visiting family some years back when he appeared at Canberra's 'Merry Muse', & would have booked him for my club but he was on a short visit & hasn't been back (yet).

sandra


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: DebC
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:51 PM

Ahhh...I have know of Gwilym Davies (we might have even met!) and it's all good stuff.

Deb Cowan


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Maryrrf
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:41 AM

Gwilym provided a link to his website which, if clicked, immediately shows his name, picture, etc. so I don't think he was trying get gigs anonymously. I have booked Gwilym three times now, once solo and twice with Carole (his wife) and fiddler Terry Brenchley. Gwilym is extremely knowledgeable and entertaining - his performances are among the best we have hosted in 8 years of putting on concerts. We lean heavily towards traditional so he was right up our alley. As a matter of fact, I think he was one of the first people we booked when we started out (Gwilym, didn't you play for us when we were still using the window sill of the coffee shop as a stage!?). Highly recommended!


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:53 AM

Not be be confused with the Leather Lane Barista.

Quote: "The time has come for me to stop hiding my light under a bushel. I would really like to get out and do some gigs on the folk scene"

If your webpage is to believed, Gwilym, you are already very active on your local folk scene. Hardly 'hiding your light'. May I gently suggest that although you have had some local folk club bookings, you are probably not in the same league as those who regularly appear on club guest lists?

I come to this thread from two perspectives, as a local performer now, like you, and as a folk club organiser and promoter, mostly back in the 70s and 80s. I also had my own folk show on Chiltern Radio. In those days I was inundated by demos from those who thought they'd like to 'get out and do some gigs on the folk scene'. But, it only made sense to book artists that put bums on seats or showed the potential to do this.

I'm retired from most of that now. I do my singing in local singarounds. It's far more relaxing and fun. It's in such clubs that you realise nowadays that standards are so good amongst most 'floor-singers', and successful clubs are not that many any more, so to be able to compete successfully on the guest artist circuit, you need to be something very special. If you were that special then you wouldn't need to promote yourself on forums such as this.

I listened to your MP3 clips. I'd say, 'welcome to the singaround scene'. I'd listen, but I wouldn't pay to do so.

I guess there must be a reason why there are no YouTube clips of Gwilym performing that I can find?

Tone


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:30 AM

Confused? I certainly am. Going onto Youtube and searching for "Frailer 46" appears to yield a number of clips in which the principal singer is a woman. Yet others here name the performer as Gwilym Davies - who is I think male.

I ask again, is the performer seeking the opinion the one found by searching youtube as stated?


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Tradsinger
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:14 AM

I can confirm that I am indeed male. The frailer46 thing is just my i/d on Youtube, which includes a random lot of clips of music I have been involved in. I'm the one playing the melodeon, and yes, you have got the name right.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:50 AM

Say.....who WAS that masked man......?

That was the Lone Tradsinger!


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM

Yes good for you Gwilym, time some of the Traditional song and music guys got a chance and people need to realise that not only the young thrusters have quality songs and music from the tradition!

Indeed the young thrusters need to learn their trade

Gwilym clearly is dedicated to his music

Ray


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:17 AM

Unfortunately dedication is not enough, though, is it Ray?
Tone


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 01:59 PM

'Unfortunately dedication is not enough, though, is it Ray?'

No generally, you have to buy the club organiser a pint as well.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM

.....and don't forget to tell the organiser - his wife is remarkably talented with those spoons.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:30 PM

Indeed!
Ray


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Tradsinger
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:52 PM

Just to let y'all know, I have updated my sound and video clips page here.

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM

Presumably, if you bought the organiser a pint and praised his wife, you actually went to the club and demonstrated how good you are at what you do. That is an excellent approach to gig-getting if you are otherwise unknown.

Mind you, you would have to impress the resident and regular performers, which might not be so easy.

Unfortunately, telling everyone how good you are on a website doesn't work too well.

Keep it live.

Tone


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM

I can think of lots of UK folk clubs that routinely book acts that haven't released albums on the established folk labels, aren't young and good-looking, don't have assertive management, aren't (necessarily) great showmen/women etc.

But I do think, Gwilym you'd do better to put together an album and post it, together with press release/biography, to folk clubs. And the folkie media too, while you're stuffing envelopes. There are limits to how many gigs you can get without some kind of demonstrable commitment to the conventions of commercial performance ...


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:32 PM

I have watched a couple of your videos Gwilym, and I would say that you are a perfectly competent singer of traditional songs.

Mere competence is not enough to make it on the circuit however, you need that (dare I say it ...) X-factor, which is undefinable, but which is possessed by such as Dave Burland, Martin Carthy, Martin Simpson and the late Mike Waterson, to name but a few straight off the top of my head. Do you have it ? Maybe you do, I have never seen you live, so how can I tell...

One thing that does make me cringe just a tad is the header to your Youtube video of "Fathom the Bowl" , wherein you state ...

"Gwilym Davies singing a Hampshire drinking song collected by him" ..

Collected by him " ???..."collected" in the folk music world has a very narrow window ... Cecil Sharp, Bert Lloyd, Alan Lomax, Hamish Henderson ...they collected folk songs....I would venture to suggest that "Fathom the Bowl " was in the repertoire of the Watersons and the Copper Family long before you ever heard the song ...

nonetheless, good luck with your venture if you do decide to make a go of it ...


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:21 PM

Well, Murray, the Davies tune is quite different from the norm. It might be an original collection.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:29 PM

Richard, Max now allows anonymous posting, but I still think it stinks for people to log out and post anonymously. It's fine to be honest in making critical remarks - but to do so behind the mask of anonymity, is downright cowardly.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Tradsinger
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:40 PM

Hello Murray,

This is a version of Fathom the Bowl that I recorded from a traditional singing family in Hampshire, not one that I got from a book or CD. The family still sings it to that tune. Of course I knew (and sang) the Watersons version before I came across this version, but was delighted to find the song in Hampshire in about 1973. As proof, check out
http://www.forest-tracks.co.uk/hampshirevoices/media/petersfieldvideos.html ,look at the video marked hadendoddandjohndodd and listen to the audience trying to join in with their version!

I am actually dubious of the word "collected", as it sounds like taking something away from someone. What I have done over many years is to record songs from source singers and sing them myself.

Hope that clarifies things.

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: GUEST,Guest, Poxicat
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM

Well, since none of you are brave enough to tell it like it is, here goes.

To get any paid gigs you have to be exceptional. To get festival gigs you have to be exceptional AND riveting. Epic fail.

The historical information is insufficient (and only interests a limited few) the performances are barely adequate (if that) and the narrative tension is missing.

Compare Martin Simpson - a complete wanker as a person with boundless conceit, and his instrumental wankery can bore for England. Indeed his complete gigs can result in half the audience sitting outside smoking or just escaping. But at his best - for example the Folk Proms gigs, he can rivet you with the narrative of an old standard like Little Musgrave to which he instrumentally adds without overwhelming.

I turn now to the clips listed.

Johnson - percussion out of time. Melodeon oppressive. Vox, wandering pitch, little if any delivery of song character and voice itself without character.

Banjum - melodeon timing off.

Bergine - pitch better but not wholly right, emphasis not working, drama of the song lacking. Very interesting to see a different narrative to the song (personally loved it) but how many will that interest?

Butcher Boy - sorry but the banjo timing was jazz. Not the same as the song at all in many places. Vox failed to rivet.

The stepping bit - look, if you're going to play melodeon as a drum FFS listen to Pete Coe and learn.

The last thing up - best by a shedload. There was some real tension in it. Get a new banjo player. Use the keyboard for a solid, connecting bass. Get the timing so it snaps. Female vox not always in tune.



Club standard at best.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:57 PM

Jings, you guys are harsh!!!


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Maryrrf
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:27 PM

I do think that some of the comments on this thread were unnecessarily harsh - Tradsinger in no way implied that he wanted to "make it on the circuit" and join the ranks of established "greats" such as Martin Carthy et al - he just was putting it out that he'd like to pick up a few more gigs outside of his usual circle. Why all the negativity???


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM

"Well, since none of you are brave enough to tell it like it is, here goes."

Wow, you're really brave, Poxicat. I wish I was as brave as you. I just hope that one day I too will be able to summon up the noble courageousness to use phrases like "Epic Fail" in an anonymous post on an internet forum.

@Gwilym - Don't see why you couldn't get some folk club gigs. Don't see why they shouldn't be paid. You strike me as a performer in the full-voiced tradition of John Kirkpatrick or Roy Harris. I've seen some better performers at folk clubs but I've also seen a lot, lot worse. (Among them several big names who routinely play towards the top of bills at Cambridge, Sidmouth etc) Best of luck to you.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 08:14 PM

I'm reminded of something, though not really folk-related..

While Christmas shopping in John Lewis in December last year, we rested from the insane scrum in the cafe.

An unprepossessing young singer plugged in an acoustic guitar, and started sing-mumbling a few songs, with rudimentary strumming accompaniment. She sang some wince-inducingly flat notes and fluffed several chords. I vaguely recognised one of the songs as being an awful, just-about-recognisable cover of an 80s hit.

Still, I thought, being generous, the monitor system probably wasn't that marvellous. She probably couldn't hear herself that well, and anyway, she was probably a jobbing student, being paid peanuts to entertain shoppers in a department store on a pre-Christmas Saturday afternoon. A few more open mic slots and she'd probably nail those songs and develop a bit of charisma.

About a week later I realised that it had been Gabrielle Aplin, and she'd been no.1 in the pop charts at the time. I must admit, even for a jaded old cynic like me, I did find that rather depressing.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:54 PM

@ Tradsinger

I know you have had a hard time on this thread (in places) and I'm afraid I may be adding to it.

But speaking as a Romani can I ask you two things? Firstly can you not call the Brazil's and Smith's "traveller"(sic). They are not Travellers they are (well respected) Romani families, not Irish Travellers. Secondly Romani is not a "dialect", it is a language. yes it has different dialects but it is a language! And thirdly (I lied)if you are going to strip mine someone elses culture to turn a few quid at least learn the basics so you don't propogate the same myths and misinformation as "Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" et al.

Anyway mush, enough rokker and kushti bokk.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Maryrrf
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:27 PM

Having hosted Gwilym on some of his trips to the United States, discussed traditional music with him at great length, and seen him at several concerts and presentations, I can say that his involvement in traditional music (and that includes his work with Traveller/Romani singers) has nothing to do with "turning a few quid". The amount of time and work he has put into collecting songs, preserving them, and performing them (after all, what good is a wonderful, unusual version of a trad song if it's buried in a dusty pile of cassette tapes in somebody's attic?) would never be adequately monetarily compensated - he has most likely spent far more in collecting and cataloging the music than he would ever earn gigging at folk clubs. Indeed in his first post he stated "I am not looking at all for large fees, just the opportunity to share my songs with wider audiences". I think it is very unfair to accuse someone of "stripping" someone else's culture and to compare the collection of traditional songs with a television production such as "Big Fat Gypsy Wedding", which definitely is commercial exploitation and distortion of an ethnic group's culture.    Gwilym has also collected songs from singers in the mountains of Virginia and West Virginia – I don't see that as exploiting or "stripping"Appalachian culture but rather honoring and preserving it.   
I really don't understand why this thread became a slagfest – it's completely uncalled for and some of the comments have been downright mean spirited.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:48 AM

It seems to me that Mr Davies has done a lot of interesting research, although the criticism of his failure to distinguish the Roma and traveller traditions is justified in substance, although harshly put.

It also seems to me that there were a number of sycophantic posts about performance standards, which could only have set Mr Davies up for a fall of greater magnitude.

Poxicat's criticism of performance standards may start harshly (albeit in two words only - "epic fail" - which are commonly used without an implication of disastrous incompetence but rather in a joking sense, at least in the UK) but go on to show that each performance has been viewed and considered. Each criticism there is factually put and constructive advice is offered. Is that not exactly what Mr Davies wanted and needed?

For what it is worth I would have thought that a performer seeking gigs should make very sure that recorded performances used for demonstration purposes were of the highest quality rather than home recording standard or "warts and all" bootleg quality.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:35 AM

@Maryrrf

Hi Mary,

Mr Tradsinger seems to have quite a few unsolicited defenders on here, and maybe with reason. However, all I know of him is his self publicising post which (IMO) would have been better any maybe more effectively placed on "Gumtree" or similar, or actually e mailing clubs with links to his work etc.

My points (I believe) were justified, because when you see your culture constantly homogenised with another culture by the media, academics, joe public and Mr Tradsinger; those of us with a half decent level of literacy (as many don't) from that culture have an obligation to address it.

Lastly, believe it or not the Romani people do not need someone from outside their culture to come watzing in to "save" our musical heritage. We have plenty of our own people doing that, we just don't tend to regularly perform at folk clubs.

I personally think this is more about the cachet that some people think it affords them "What, you collected songs from the gypsies (sic)? Oh how wonderful!" We don't now, and never have, needed the white middle classes to come in and save us! Or our culture.

When people do things like this, it has always been about sating the voyeuristic curiosity of the gorger(non-Gypsy)people.

In that regard "The amount of time and work he has put into collecting songs, preserving them" is both unnecessary and on no higher moral ground than Firecracker Films who made BFGW.

It is possible to show respect to, and work with another culture in an appropriate way without that culture being further treated as a curiosity. For a good example of this just look at Robin Huw Bowen and his work with Eldra Jarman, and more recently (her daughter) Teleri Jarman.

ATB, Lavengro


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: GUEST,Jenti
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM

As a Romany woman of mature years, I now wish that, when we were young, my sisters and I hadn't discouraged our father from singing the old songs. We are from the Hughes family and he sang the same songs and in the same fashion as Queen Caroline Hughes, to whom we are related. Now, of course, I wish I had listened and learned. If somebody had only 'collected' from him round the bender tents, I would be able to listen to him again and would be grateful for the opportunity.

Now, I don't know any Romanies who would have allowed themselves to be recorded if they didn't want to – and I know families in the south of England who are still being recorded and are more than happy to share with the wider community. The songs are, after all, not all specifically Romany. Most were picked up along the way in pubs, in the fields and at village events. The singing style may differ and tunes may have changed but the songs belong to us all.

Yes, some Romanies today may no longer wish to be called Travellers, but our forefathers used 'Traveller' as a self-ascription from at least the early 1800s. My extended family and friends occasionally still do and also sometimes refer to ourselves as Gypsies. My only request is that Romany, Traveller and Gypsy start with capital letters as Scottish and Irish Travellers, and Romanies/Gypsies are all recognised ethnic minorities.

As to the criticism of Tradsinger, to my mind criticism is acceptable but it should be constructive, not delivered in a way that can cause hurt.

Jenti


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:51 AM

You may find some of this thread useful (I've just read it through & enjoyed it all over again).


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: GUEST,not cynical
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM

Tradsinger, I'd take the more ahem 'constructive feedback' above with a pinch of salt.

I posted a couple of things by my wife on here a few years ago and got comments like - 'she might get a few folk club gigs' or 'might build a small following locally'.

She's since gone on to play at a fair proportion of the folk clubs in the UK, will play 10 festivals (at least, admittedly not Cambridge - yet! ) this year and has offers of gigs in New Zealand, USA and Canada.

Give it a whirl mate ....... but do contact clubs and festivals direct, and ignore the more cynical critics on here.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:52 AM

@Jenti

"I now wish that, when we were young, my sisters and I hadn't discouraged our father from singing the old songs"

I think that everyone with an interest in music (regardless of their culture) may share similar regrets? However that is not to say that others within our race haven't realised the value of songs and stories. We are a people where the oral tradition was/is a necessity after all.

@Jenti

"I would be able to listen to him again and would be grateful for the opportunity."

I understand that. But Mr Tradsinger (by his own words a dozen or so posts above)is not looking to preserve these songs for posterity in an anthropological or musilogical sense like Thomas Acton and his ilk, for you or anyone else to access at some future point. He is seeking to reinterpret (at least in part,and for a small fee)Romani songs and claim them as his work.

Quote from Mr Tradsinger original post:

"I am not looking at all for large fees, just the opportunity to share my songs with wider audiences"

They are not his songs. He just want's to make some money from them via the curious masses who have never set foot a site, and probably never will. He clearly thinks this is one of his main "selling points" as it is practically top of his list of bullet points. As I said, and as I maintain, no better than the purveyors of voyeuristic television mockumentaries. IMO.

I am a Lloyd, blessings on you and yours Jenti, dar Develza.


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:13 AM

Our Romany/ Romani friends seem to be a little bit up their own arse on this subject.

Once you sing a song in public. It has been published. You have lost control.

Sometimes the results make you weep. Sometimes you glow with pride.

That's how it is. The cat exits the bag. pandora's box opens....


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: GUEST,SJ Lepak
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:18 AM

Deb C! I have the "The Songs and Ballads of Hattie Mae Tyler Cargill." You have a lovely voice!


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM

Ego.

It's all about ego.

None of us as performers would perform at all if we did not have an inflated ego. We need self-interest in order to sing in front of an audience. We all have a bit of, 'look at me, I'm good' syndrome, or we wouldn't do it.

Okay, maybe a rare few are embarrassed by their popularity.

But those who are successful have real talent to go along with the ego. The talent of the lesser gifted is not enhanced or compensated by an inflated ego way beyond ability.

I well remember being well castigated by the mother of a lad who submitted a tape to me, when I was DJing on local radio. She was incensed that I should reject it. Her son had amazing singer-songwriting talent! (It was very poor unoriginal three chord imitations of Dylan stuff, poorly sung.)

I think, from listening to what the OP has done, reading his website, and comparing him with the talent of those on the circuit, and again with good local floor singers, he is attempting to 'punch well beyond his weight'.

I don't mean this unkindly. I am trying to be factual and to keep this in proportion.

As a past club and festival organiser I would not book him. He isn't in that league. But he's welcome to come along to one of our singarounds. But then I wouldn't book myself either! I was a song collector too. But off of LPs. There was a a time, but not now.

Maybe the answer is for him to tap into the educational fields if he wants his work to have a wider hearing? Schools might book him, if he can talk about traditional music.

If you prove me wrong, Gwilym, and appear on the programme of a folk club or festival here in Yorkshire, I'll buy you a pint and apologise.

But at the moment, all I can say is, nice try.

Tone


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Subject: RE: Tradsinger seeks gigs (UK)
From: Tradsinger
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:28 AM

I wasn't going to respond any more to this thread, as I think all the points have been made and given me food for thought. However, I must challenge in the strongest possible terms Guest Lavengro's last posting. He claims I have not recorded these songs for posterity or access at some future point, but he could not be more wrong. Nearly all the recordings I made of the Smith and Brazil families have been published on the Musical Traditions label for anyone to access. Added to which, copies have been deposited with the British Library Sound Archive for anyone to hear. No financial gain was involved - in fact just the opposite when I consider the travel, money spent in treating people to drinks, etc. I do no begrudge any of this and I am glad that I did it. The Gypsy traditions are changing and I have made an effort to record the old songs. The old singers I recorded have all passed on now, and had not I and others noted their songs, they would have been lost, not only to archives, but to the families themselves. It is up to the families as to whether they wish to continue singing the songs themselves - it is not my business to tell people what they should sing. I am always happy to pass on the results of my collecting to interested parties - just ask Paul Sartin or John Kirkpatrick - and always seek to respect and acknowledge my sources.

Contrary to what you may think, I have no wish to parody or profiteer from Gypsy material, or any material I have gathered. I respect the tradition and am seeking to celebrate it and promote it to a wider audience, not to trivialise it. And for your information, I have as little respect for the BFGW programme as you clearly have.

If a singer has been kind enough to allow me to record them, then I feel I have just as much right as they have to sing that song, which wasn't "theirs" in the first place. We are only links in a chain. I am talking here about traditional songs, of course, as composed songs are a different matter.

You mention money - it is NOT, repeat NOT my intention to make money from this initiative. I have made it clear that I am not seeking large fees, but expenses are a right and proper thing to expect. I just like singing the songs and hope that it can give some pleasure to others to hear me. Added to which, I would like some credit for the work I have done to preserve and pass on these songs.

I would be grateful if people who know nothing about me did not attribute motives to me that are far from my mind.

There, I have said my piece and I think this thread has gone far enough. Thank you all for your thoughts, and I am signing off this thread now. PM me if you have anything further to say.

Tradsinger


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Mudcat time: 21 October 7:28 PM EDT

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