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BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: TheSnail Date: 23 May 13 - 10:03 AM It is true that Steve's version of science is a trifle idiosyncratic and he presents it with an evangelical fervour which gives fuel to those who wish to set up an equivalence between science and religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman Date: 23 May 13 - 08:29 AM Aye and Sailor boy can't really hide being all at sea.. Who rattled his parrot's cage? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 23 May 13 - 12:25 AM Now, Jack... Hey, this is message #750, 3/4 of 1000. Do I get any credit for that? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 May 13 - 12:00 AM Shaw has a "scientific background?" He hides it well enough. LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 May 13 - 06:08 PM i can hardly be dissing just about every scientist that ever lived,since most of them have been creationist. Ridiculous. Untrue, ridiculous, and you're a liar. i am not even dissing evolutionist scientists.not accepting their conclusions is not dissing them. Yes it is. You ignore honestly-garnered evidence and replace it with your own deluded received wisdom. You insult science and scientists by so doing. They work hard while you and your disgraceful ilk are content to be lazy, deceitful and prejudiced bastards. steve and some others seem to think it fair game to diss creationists,ID,s and other darwin doubters. We certainly do. Do you know why? Because they spout ignorance, they diss science and they ignore, nay, refute, rock-solid evidence. That is disreputable, dishonest and downright nonsensical. i have presented some evidences that demonstrate the fact that darwinism is way short of explaning how its theory can work and the answer steve gives is evasion and attempted intimidation. Oh really? Well dearie me! I must have missed it! Do apprise us again of this evidence of yours. I can't wait! he has a science qualification and i respect that,but i am certain that he holds a rigid worldview at least as fervently as mine. Your respect means nothing to me. It is nice to see you admit that you have a rigid world view (whatever that means - I doubt very much whether you know). As for mine, well I play tunes, dig my garden, go for bike rides, cook nice food, help out where I can in my community and so on. Your certainty about what you see as my "world view" hardly surprises me. You are the bloody expert, after all, when it comes to having certainty without a scrap of evidence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 22 May 13 - 05:00 PM i can hardly be dissing just about every scientist that ever lived,since most of them have been creationist.i am not even dissing evolutionist scientists.not accepting their conclusions is not dissing them.steve and some others seem to think it fair game to diss creationists,ID,s and other darwin doubters.is this not called circular reasoning when the conclusion is presented as the argument? i have presented some evidences that demonstrate the fact that darwinism is way short of explaning how its theory can work and the answer steve gives is evasion and attempted intimidation. he has a science qualification and i respect that,but i am certain that he holds a rigid worldview at least as fervently as mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 22 May 13 - 06:24 AM Because humans mostly understand things in human terms, they have usually anthropomorphized this Presence, to the alarm of others. Our justifiable dread of nature is the root of all religion. Not only did we anthropomorphise it, we worshipped it in terms of its malevolence and mercy via a myriad little gods & mythologies through which we sought to understand & appease it. When our arrogance got the measure of all that, we lumped all our little gods together and made one great big one. No longer were our gods analogies of nature, rather nature was now an analogy of God, & not a very nice God either. Maybe this is because nature isn't very nice? Not very nice to us anyway - much less in itself, with everything eating everything else and the whole thing beset with darkness, suffering and death. Hardly the wonder we dare dream of an heavenly paradise presided over by an all-knowing all-loving God whose name on earth is nevertheless written in blood. Hardly the wonder too that the Gnostics saw this God as the devil, and this earth as hell... The God we have made tells us a lot about ourselves; he ought to do, because we made Him in our own image - the ultimate metaphor of the human condition, enlightened by cognition and infested by nature. We adore Stephen Hawking because his wisdom transcends the tragedy of his bodily afflictions; he is a metaphor of hope in a realm of utter hopelessness. And yet somehow, we keep smiling through regardless, suitably deluded that all will come right in the end... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 21 May 13 - 07:04 PM Well, Don, for the most part, my experiences in the Catholic Church have been very positive. I go to church almost every Sunday and participate in various church-related activities several times a week. For the most part, I have a wonderful time and have contact with wonderful people. The bad stuff is there, but not as prevalent and powerful as one might think. It's like the rest of life. There's bad stuff, and you can let it overwhelm you - or you can view it in context and proportion, and then it's not so bad. I know people in my community who are obsessed with crime, and they see crime wherever they go. I see the same things they see, but I think my view of the proportion of things is more realistic. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 May 13 - 06:20 PM ""If you want to know what I believe, that's about as close as I can come to explaining it. I will add, however, that I see That Which Is Beyond and That Which Is Within, as one and the same infinite Goodness."" Given that this view corresponds quite closely with my own, how explain that as part of it you seem to need the comfort of belonging to an organised church with, frankly, some very unlikeable characteristics (not, I emphasise, an attack but merely an observation), while to me that concept is both unnecessary and anathema? Odd sort of world, isn't it? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 May 13 - 06:13 PM ""Nature's Fury." I would think that such a headline would be offensive to all you literalists among us."" And, as far as I'm concerned, you would be correct Joe, since any competent scientist is aware that nature is fundamentally disinterested in the human race and in fact indifferent to its survival or otherwise. That is the major problem with anthropomorphisation of natural physical forces. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 May 13 - 04:59 PM The headline on our local paper today, read, "Nature's Fury." I would think that such a headline would be offensive to all you literalists among us. Well I for one see nothing wrong with those headlines. There's plenty of room for colour in this most colourful of languages. If you think we're all Spock-like automatons you've seriously misjudged us. Incidentally, the word you were looking for was rationalists, not literalists. We have nothing to be literal about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 May 13 - 04:54 PM You, on the other hand, have recently said "I have a scientific background" so you should know better.(Although a while ago you said "I'm not speaking as a "scientist"". Confusing. Confusing only to people who desperately want to be confused. I play the harmonica but I do not post about religion as a harmonica player. If I post about harmonica playing I do not post as an atheist. I am offended by pete when he attacks scientists partly because I have a scientific background myself. As a person with such aspirations for accuracy, by the way, perhaps you could attend to your sloppy use of quotation marks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 May 13 - 04:45 PM This Science, of which our atheist friends speak so fondly, has brought us Chernobyl, and Bhopal, and a wonderful new thing called fracking. I can't begin to tell you how so wrong you are here. Science brings us no such things. People bring us those things. People like you and me. Science is the pursuit of knowledge and understanding. You simply cannot blame the misuse of technology by imperfect people on science. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 21 May 13 - 03:56 PM I'm sure most of you are aware that a mile-wide tornado hit Oklahoma Monday and caused vast devastation. The headline on our local paper today, read, "Nature's Fury." I would think that such a headline would be offensive to all you literalists among us. After all, fundamentalists who believe in God, know that God causes such travesties to punish us for homosexuality and other such sins - and it is "worshipping a false god" to blame it on Nature. And literalist atheists know that scientific laws govern all this, and that it was caused by evil industrialists who cause global warming - and it is also evil to worship Nature as a god, just as it's evil and misleading to your children to acknowledge any sort of divinity. I dunno. I kinda like the headline, even though it defies the literalist principles of both our atheists and our fundamentalists. I think that it's helpful for us to be mindful that there are things beyond us that are beyond our comprehension, that we may never be able to comprehend - and maybe we need to approach That Which Is Beyond us with awe and respect. And to my mind, That Which Is Beyond is also That Which Is Within. And even if "That" is not God, perhaps it is worthy of awe and respect. Maybe it's a primal thing, but what's wrong with primal? This Science, of which our atheist friends speak so fondly, has brought us Chernobyl, and Bhopal, and a wonderful new thing called fracking. Science has brought us many wonderful innovations and understandings, but the hubris of Science sometimes prevents us from realizing that there is always something Beyond, always a further understanding. Throughout all of time, humans have reached out to this ineffable Presence, of That Which Is Beyond and That Which Is Within. With varying degrees of success, they have used myth and ritual and symbols and poetry and music and contemplation to reach out to this Presence. Because humans mostly understand things in human terms, they have usually anthropomorphized this Presence, to the alarm of others. People referred to as mystics are often the ones who seem to get closest to forming union with this Presence, whatever It is. When people, believers and unbelievers alike, reach a point where they think they are able to name and define this Presence, they have failed. This is the point where our militant atheists and our militant fundamentalists converge - they believe they have conquered the Truth. The mystics and contemplatives also reach a point of convergence, whether they believe in God or not - understanding that That Which Is Beyond, remains beyond comprehension, only partly approachable through myth and ritual and symbols. Maybe this Ineffable Beyond isn't God, and is simply the Ineffable Beyond. Does that really matter? I think what matters is that we know that there is always something beyond and within us that we cannot know and cannot control - but yet it is infinitely valuable to reach out to It, whatever It is. If you want to know what I believe, that's about as close as I can come to explaining it. I will add, however, that I see That Which Is Beyond and That Which Is Within, as one and the same infinite Goodness. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 21 May 13 - 03:00 PM As far as I know, neither Blandiver nor Penn Jillette have any training as scientists so perhaps they can be excused. Excused what? And by whom? By the Sycophantic Mollusc (who once so meanly derided a fellow 'Catter for daring to use a perfectly pragmatic vernacularism on a folklore thread)? I think not somehow. Keep your joyless pedantry to yourself. The statement is clear enough in this context: Religions are a matter of making stuff up, whereas Science is a matter of finding things out. Religions are exclusive little boxed in worlds; Science is the very breath of the known universe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,BrendanB Date: 21 May 13 - 02:33 PM Gosh, are you still here? I thought you would all have left ages ago. I only came in to turn the lights out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: TheSnail Date: 21 May 13 - 01:05 PM Quite right Stevie. Rather sloppy speaking. As far as I know, neither Blandiver nor Penn Jillette have any training as scientists so perhaps they can be excused. You, on the other hand, have recently said "I have a scientific background" so you should know better.(Although a while ago you said "I'm not speaking as a "scientist"". Confusing.) I'm a bit busy at the moment. I'll get back to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 May 13 - 11:33 AM Bet Snailie wouldn't agree with that quote, the bit about science being true. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 21 May 13 - 11:19 AM If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again. ― Penn Gilette, God, No!: Signs You May Already Be an Atheist and Other Magical Tales |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 May 13 - 09:37 AM cant we leave children the world over to make their own minds up when old enough to decide what makes sense to them? Religion can't afford to do this, achmelvich. Say you waited until your child was eighteen, then invited him to join an organisation as corrupt, undemocratic and authoritarian as any big religion (naturally, being an open-minded person, you would have to represent your faith of choice honestly to your kid). You wouldn't get many to sign up. The only way religion can hope to perpetuate itself is by signing up babies en masse. They all do it, don't they, and you won't find many adherents who see anything wrong with it. Amazing how you can adjust your morals to suit! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 May 13 - 09:29 AM C'mon, Steve. Pete hasn't abused anybody. He's always been very gentle and polite. He simply disagrees with scientists who are proponents of evolution (which may well be "every scientist who ever lived") - but that's not abuse. It's just disagreement. I tend to side with the scientists; but Pete has a right to an opinion, and he expresses his opinion humbly, quietly, and politely. Well now, let's take a look a this. "He hasn't abused anybody"? Never abused "evolutionists" or "evangelical darwinists", huh? This man firmly sets his face against rational argument, reason and the honest hard work of scientists. He has his own story, eyes tight shut, and nothing else counts. All the indulgence and niceness he's encountered here has not changed his disreputable views one jot. Well I have a scientific background and I find that to be offensive and abusive. This man does no work to arrive at his prejudiced opinion bar listening to similarly-stupid people and taking a fatuously-literal view of the Bible. He sneers at every single piece of hard-won evidence ever gleaned by hard-working scientists that doesn't chime with his received "wisdom", yet has done nothing himself except for consorting with carefully-selected fellow-travellers on the lunatic fringe. He is not humble and his politeness is a very thin veneer (he isn't even polite enough to type reasonable English). Of course he is entitled to his prejudices. But he is not entitled to peddle them here and expect not to be shot down. Don't let him fool you. Soft faces, hard cases. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,achmelvich Date: 21 May 13 - 05:56 AM yes,it does matter. we are fortunate in relatively enlightened europe that such fundamental views are rare and dealt with - usually - appropriately (or dismissed as barmy) however,in other parts of the world such as in the us and the middle east they are strongly held views that often lead to the persecution of the other, different (inferior) religious and cultural groups. of course, there are many millions of good people who would never wish to do anyone any harm but there are many others who will support the views of powerful religious leaders (always men, by the way) and be directed to persecute other groups. in the uk we have some religious schools which divide children from an early age. cant we leave children the world over to make their own minds up when old enough to decide what makes sense to them? by then they should realise that we are all just paople -some good, some not so...and aggression between us is perverse and childish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check Date: 21 May 13 - 05:26 AM Joe asks if it matters that people may have a fundamental literal view. Well actually it does. No issue with the view. My mate reckons the moon landings didn't happen. Still worth drinking with as his musical appreciation and knowledge is a treat to behold and he is a great friend. Just a bit weird where NASA is concerned. If he got a few others to agree with him, (and I mean after they sober up..) then he could get the local authorities to teach it as an alternative view to impressionable children. You see, children need protection from stupidity or they may become stupid themselves. Which may be part of a grand plan. And that is sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 21 May 13 - 04:53 AM Achmelvich, even rational, responsible atheists are unable to do anything about the weather, now matter how responsibly and fairly and properly they run our world. The tornado was caused by forces of nature, not by God. But when many people are faced with a tragedy that is beyond what they can deal with, they pray. They pray for protection, they pray for help, they pray for comfort, they pray for healing. It's a primal thing, and it gives them hope and makes them feel better. Why stop them? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,achmelvich Date: 21 May 13 - 04:27 AM http://www.theonion.com/articles/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-int,1778/ so if i (say?)drop a peanut it falls through god's will - not my clumsiness? intelligent falling eh? so presumably the wind blowing in oklahoma is intelligent wind. so why would religious types pray to their god to ask them to stop doing something that they have clearly chosen to do. destroying peoples' lives and devastating parts of the world could not realistically be the will of a loving or all-powerful god. in fact only a malign,disinterested or deranged presence would design and run the whole show like this. what has to happen before people will conclude there is no god? really,religion just reveals the extent of our varied craziness and our inability to take responsibility to run our own world properly and fairly. atheists who point this out are trying to help the good people afflicted to accept reality and to work together with compassion and good will to improve the real world. now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 21 May 13 - 04:21 AM But Don, if some people want to hold onto a literal view of the biblical creation story, does it really matter? If you visit the Smithsonian Natural History Museum in Washington, DC, you'll see a stunning display that tells the story of evolution very well. You'll find no mention of "Creation Science" or the biblical creation myths. Seems to me, then, that the supporters of evolution have prevailed. Why continue to attack the minority who think otherwise? How is it that they can do you or the world any harm? Is Newthink/Rightthink all that important? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 May 13 - 04:06 AM ""if dawkins cant find any well qualified creationist scientists he certainly aint looking for them, and you are living in denial if you claim that there are,nt any"" Pete, Apart fom the services of a good English grammar coach, you also need a course in logical thought and expression. There are indeed scientists, mostly of the airy fairy sciences on the fringe of the real scientific community, who are also creationists. Your reversal of that idea to talk about ""Creation Scientists"" is a total nonsensical non sequitur. There is no such thing as creation science. The whole charade is based on a negation of science in which you start off with a belief and twist the facts to fit. Science starts with an observation and well established principles of investigation and experiment are applied to the task of understanding what that observation means. The results are what they are. If they fit into the overall sum of scientific knowledge all well and good. If they destroy an existing scientific structure, then the structure is changed to update and accommodate the new addition. If you cannot understand the difference then it is a flaw in your thinking, not a flaw in the universal laws of physics. Put as politely as possible, drop the ""Creation Science"" crap, it doesn't exist, and to suggest that it does is dishonest. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 21 May 13 - 03:47 AM C'mon, Steve. Pete hasn't abused anybody. He's always been very gentle and polite. He simply disagrees with scientists who are proponents of evolution (which may well be "every scientist who ever lived") - but that's not abuse. It's just disagreement. I tend to side with the scientists; but Pete has a right to an opinion, and he expresses his opinion humbly, quietly, and politely. It's your fundamentalist obsession with "truth" that makes you think his disagreement is some sort of abuse. I know your type, Steve. Everything has to be absolutes. One minute you're preaching atheism, and the next you'll be slinging the Bible at us. God forbid. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 May 13 - 06:10 PM "Those who do get abusive??" You are by far the most abusive person on this forum. You abuse just about every scientist who ever lived. You appear to think that a highly-selective series of tendentious writings by a bunch of desert-dwellers trumps honest scholarship, and you never hesitate to tell us so. So don't give me your abuse-victim bullshit, please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 20 May 13 - 11:57 AM thankyou joe.and i return the compliment.you may think i,m a non thinking fundamentalist but you dont get abusive about it.of course those that do get abusive certainly don,t bolster their argument except to those of the same ilk . argument weak [or completely absent!] shout like blazes! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 20 May 13 - 08:19 AM I must admit I find all this personal stuff a tad specious. I don't come here to judge or be judged, much less 'understood' - stick to the topic, chaps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 May 13 - 06:59 AM Good, caring, thoughtful people do not shut their minds firmly on science, persistently display blind prejudice, diss honest, hard-working scientists at every opportunity and tell lies about "creationist scientists". People like that are, at best, seriously deluded and, at worst, seriously in danger of propagating very harmful messages. Good and caring, well I don't know the bloke (and don't want to). Thoughtful? Not in a million years. Not on any topic he posts about here. He's an internet horror, all wrapped in nice smiles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 20 May 13 - 06:16 AM Here's a cracker that's bound to catch on in the Christian West, assuming it hasn't already: Atheism is a Form of Autism For the record I'd say religion is a form of Cultural Autism; it seeks comfort in the familiar and the knowable, it thrives on routine, pedantry, ritual, obsession, compulsion & repetition, which are signifiers of both mental illness and religious devotion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Stim Date: 19 May 13 - 11:18 PM I think that is a good thought, Joe. Not all minds work alike, and it's not really helpful to expect them to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 19 May 13 - 09:27 PM I suppose Steve Shaw's position towards me, is about my position toward "pete from seven stars link" - or maybe the three of us all have similar views of each other. I have the impression that both Steve and Pete are very good people. They care about things deeply, and they have spent their lifetimes pondering the questions of life. And while I am not always mindful of their goodness and caring and thinking, they remain good and caring and thoughtful. And yet I disagree with their thinking completely, and that can make me condescending toward them, perhaps angry at times. So, I thought I'd take a moment to remember that Pete and Steve are good, caring, thoughtful people. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 May 13 - 08:15 PM to posit that you will understand and explain them some time soon is an act of faith.you cannot know that. Absolute rubbish. Science has always moved on, made progress and closed in on the stuff we don't presently know. To say we'll explain them sometime soon is no act of faith. It's a prediction based on past experience. if dawkins cant find any well qualified creationist scientists he certainly aint looking for them, and you are living in denial if you claim that there are,nt any What do you think you mean by "well qualified"? We must have told you, Mr Thickie, a thousand times why there are no "creationist scientists". The term is an oxymoron. If you accommodate creationist bullshit you are not a scientist (and, as you wouldn't know what a scientist was even if one jumped up and bit you on your creationist bollocks, please don't try to tell me otherwise). It is impossible. Simple as that. You have, in effect, declared that you have dismissed the scientific method. Your scientist thought processes have been fatally perverted. You don't believe in evidence. You are not such much an oxymoron as a moron. Now why don't you just toddle off and sing some nice folk songs to some nice people. Keep yourself nice and busy. You must know a few. But don't tell them your views on creation whatever you do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 19 May 13 - 05:14 PM i dont know algebra at all but i am confidant that there are experts that do know it inside out.my science may not be much but i am pretty certain that there is much that is still not understood and for which naturalistic explanations are missing.to posit that you will understand and explain them some time soon is an act of faith.you cannot know that. if dawkins cant find any well qualified creationist scientists he certainly aint looking for them, and you are living in denial if you claim that there are,nt any |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 May 13 - 08:41 AM String Theory, Quantum mechanics, Relativity, the origins of vision and hearing in animals are hardly ordinary or everyday the explanations for them are quite extraordinary and exceptional. Yes, ordinary and everyday. We might not yet understand every nut and bolt. But that simply makes them a challenge. It does not make them magical or supernatural. Or even exceptional. They've been there all the time, just like that rock sitting in my garden. I don't understand algebra very well, but that doesn't make it quite extraordinary and exceptional. It means I have work to do, that's all. That's what science is. Working to understand stuff properly. Closing in on our gaps in knowledge by dint of honest hard slog. Not calling it what it isn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg Date: 19 May 13 - 03:54 AM Hello sailor! Ordinary everyday laws. Or classic physics or Newtonian physics. Nobody was referring to quantum mechanics. Go back to school and come back when you can differentiate between the two subjects. Classic physics contradicts Scripture. Quantum mechanics renders it irrelevant. Take your choice. Joe. I just thought it hilarious when pete dismissed your life study and thought on the basis he has to be right. Yet my more serious point would be that when leaders of religions get their house in order and state what represents their supposed right to give a moral perspective the better. Here in The UK parliament votes on gay marriage next week. Today's headline? s change in the opinion of The Archbishop of Canterbury. Don't recall seeing him on my last ballot paper. ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 19 May 13 - 03:41 AM Musket wonders what i'm really thinking when I encounter fundamentalists. I'm thinking really hard about ways to hold my tongue and be polite, knowing that opposing them won't do any good. I have no problem finding atheists and others to work with me on social justice causes, but I've about given up trying to get any participation from the fundamentalists. The fundamentalist Catholic parish in town doesn't want to have anything to do with us, because we associate with Protestants and other people like that.... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 19 May 13 - 01:40 AM "Yet there is nothing in nature that can't be explained by ordinary, everyday laws." Horse dung. String Theory, Quantum mechanics, Relativity, the origins of vision and hearing in animals are hardly ordinary or everyday the explanations for them are quite extraordinary and exceptional. There are educated guesses about such things there is even some observation that supports the guesses, but they laws that govern many things in science are far from settled and ordinary. It is a certainly that you can't have observed none of those things and therefor you take their existence on faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans truth Date: 18 May 13 - 02:15 PM Sorry just to add. Joe. If pete is ever good enough at typing to enlighten you on what you got wrong when studying theology can you share it with us? Out of interest was this a turn the other cheek or count to ten moment? You pointed out above that you are polite to them. Penny for what you were really thinking? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket with smelly wee Date: 18 May 13 - 01:13 PM Damned asparagus! Sorry, where was I? Oh yes. I was delighted to read that pete says that Darwinism is my presupposition. I don't wish to split hairs here but it most certainly isn't and I have never said so. I have no presupposition on any subject (other than in respect of football, up the Owls!) and would be comfortable to be wrong if evidence led to destroying long held positions. My main comment on Darwin is that it must have been hilarious seeing those who used religion as a tool to control others be in fear of logic for the first time. And for our regular viewers, here is a quote from a letter in The Times a few months ago. "The country has lost its Christian values. The government must right this wrong." the first sentence reflects a view, possibly right depending on what Christian values are. The writer seems to lament the fact. Again, whatever floats your boat. The second sentence is where a disillusioned chap becomes a potentially dangerous God botherer. I wonder what Christian values are? If it means helping others, being kind, giving alms, doing good deeds etc, I have to point out they are not Christian values. I try and my mate Ahmed certainly succeeds in my view. That makes them human values. Who was it that said altruism is a trait carried out purely for instinctive survival? Err.. Darwin anyone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 May 13 - 08:42 AM while at the same time largely avoiding creationists if they are well qualified scientists He doesn't avoid 'em. He can't find any. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 18 May 13 - 05:57 AM thankyou joe for the outline of what you were taught at theology classes.i have seen these arguments before and they are answered well by many orthodox scholars.to go through these would take some time and i am not very fast on my finger type.but i will discuss in more detail if required by yourself. as much as i would like to have had you with me against stevism i find myself in the unlikely situation of agreeing that the majority view of accomodation is a cop out. dawkins even said that the "evangelicals have it right" in reference to where the battle really is.he actually seems more disdainful of the accomodatists,while at the same time largely avoiding creationists if they are well qualified scientists- but i drift!. i think that your "progressive" views on the bible would not be countenanced as worthy of the tradition you claim to belong to by the early christians, and christians generally utill darwinism achieved the supremacy in origins thinking.at that point the bible began to be interpreted in light of "science" to read what no-one had seen before! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 May 13 - 07:24 PM Progressive Christians and Jews won't argue with science at all. They see the same processes scientists see, but they look in wonder at nature and see the presence of God within the processes scientists observe - not as an external force. And if others see the same thing and don't see the presence of God, that's fine, too. Well, I won't jump on your use of "progressive", though I could... Contemplating the wonders of nature is (to me) why we're here. The paradox in the position of people of faith is that the self-same God who you see as driving things (and who gave us our brains) truncates your enquiry. He provides far too lazy an answer, which, when you think about it, is about as lame an answer as it's possible to conceive. Nature, allegedly, exists because of him, and he drives it. Yet there is nothing in nature that can't be explained by ordinary, everyday laws. He's an incredibly poor explanation in other ways too: he's clearly a very complex being, he breaches every known law and he is utterly inexplicable. Well, I'm an atheist because my poor, demented brain demands something a little more intellectually rigorous than that. People of faith are not necessarily stupid or inventing things or whatever you may claim. You won't find me calling believers stupid. Most believers I know appear to sideline their belief, and get on with their lives pretty much the same as everyone else, for 99% of the time. In most cases I wouldn't be knowing who's a believer and who isn't. I belong to a faith tradition that traces itself back over 3,000 years. It's a tradition that is very sacred and meaningful to me. If it's not meaningful to you, that's OK by me. But be careful when you try to refute it or denigrate it. It has a long history of wisdom behind it. Yeah but yours is a positive upstart compared to mine. My tradition goes back to Lucy or Homo habilis or Australopithecus, or those chaps who painted animals on freezing cave walls in central Europe. My tradition's called humanity. Yours is, with respect, something of a bolt-on! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 17 May 13 - 06:38 PM No, Steve, you're mixing the fundamentalist and progressive views, and they just don't coincide. Progressive Christians and Jews won't argue with science at all. They see the same processes scientists see, but they look in wonder at nature and see the presence of God within the processes scientists observe - not as an external force. And if others see the same thing and don't see the presence of God, that's fine, too. There are variations in this perspective - some see God both within and beyond nature and all the wonderful things we encounter in life. But in general, you won't find progressive Christians and Jews who see God as intervening or interrupting. They see God as acting through the laws of nature. I can't "dumb down" faith to make it satisfactory to you, Steve. People of faith are people who know God in their lives, in one way or another. People of faith are not necessarily stupid or inventing things or whatever you may claim. They just see things in a way that's different from the way you see them. I belong to a faith tradition that traces itself back over 3,000 years. It's a tradition that is very sacred and meaningful to me. If it's not meaningful to you, that's OK by me. But be careful when you try to refute it or denigrate it. It has a long history of wisdom behind it. And besides. trying to refute or denigrate it, is downright impolite. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 May 13 - 06:12 PM Very few people in these churches reject the idea of evolution, although most see God as active within the process of evolution. Well Joe, much as I'd love to have you onside versus peteism, this statement encapsulates the whole problem. It would be really tempting just to say that, well, these religious types have simply got to involve God somewhere, and we might as well let them accommodate the scientists by their agreeing to evolution but insisting that God got the whole thing going. Unfortunately, the whole point of evolution by natural selection is that it makes God entirely redundant (this point troubled Darwin, but he was a bit too timid to come out with it). There isn't a single step in evolution ever discovered that requires the intervention of God to make it happen. The laws of nature take care of everything. Even the origin of life itself (a step that to some, even some scientists, is somehow seen as a sacred moment) was almost certainly a pretty mundane event that happened in a muddy pond somewhere. God is just a clumsy insertion, put there to satisfy the consciences of those believers who really want to respect science. They would do far better to respect, and have confidence in, their own intellects. Easy truth can be poured over you. Real truth is well worth fighting for! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Joe Offer Date: 17 May 13 - 03:53 PM Pete, here's what I learned in Theology school:
The second creation story (Genesis 2:4-25) is quite different. Man and woman were almost the very first things created. In this story, God is much more anthropomorphic than in the first story - in this story, God interacts directly with humankind. "Adam" (man) and Eve (woman) are symbolic representations of all humankind. The story of the "original sin" of eating the forbidden fruit (not specified to be an apple) is also symbolic of humankind turning away from good and choosing selfishness and sin - continued by Cain's sin of killing his brother. These stories in Genesis are but two of many creation myths that came from the time. There are many similarities in the various myths, and many differences. But none of them are meant to be scientific descriptions of how the world and its creatures came to be. Science does a far better job of that. The best and most understandable I've seen is at the Smithsonian Natural History Museum in Washington, DC. This is a pretty conventional stance, held by theologians from the Catholic Church and most of the "mainline" Protestant churches, and many Jews. Very few people in these churches reject the idea of evolution, although most see God as active within the process of evolution. They make no attempt to prove the presence of God in evolution, because they view this as a matter of faith that cannot be proved. And in no way do they see the action of God as contradicting the processes of nature, as described by scientific research. They see no inherent conflict or contradiction between science and faith. They do see the creation stories of Genesis as sacred and wonderful documents of faith, but they wouldn't dream of taking these stories literally. Many Baptists and most other "born-again" religions are the only ones who take a more literal view of scripture and reject the idea of evolution. These "born-again" religions are wildly popular in the United States and they are growing at an alarming rate in many parts of the world. We in the "mainline" religions try to be polite to the "born-agains," but we have nothing in common with them and can't understand or accept their beliefs any more than the atheists can. Note that the Catholics and the "mainline" churches all have a few fundamentalist members, but generally not in leadership positions. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 May 13 - 03:11 PM Musket, beware of false deities. Asparagus seems to be popping up in profusion. |