BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 May 13 - 02:36 PM

well musket you no doubt are referring to creationism when you talk of myth.apart from the parts of evolutio such as natural selection and mutations and other science that can be verified by observable,repeatable,testable means,and also is affirmed by creationists,i believe darwinism is a myth.though it has different denominations the bedrock of darwinism is not subject to testing.
if you think it is,you might like to tackle the questions dawkins and steve evaded.
joe - everyone has their presuppositions that colour their research.as i indicated to musket darwinism is his presupposition,,and yours also it seems.the creationist admits to his starting point and of course that effects his research.are you aware that there are a lot of creationist scientists and general darwin doubters.
as much as i respect your theology degree,i find it sad that you believe,at least historically that it is untrustworthy.
maybe the devil made you di it!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:31 AM

Q. Religion is a seasonal and geographical thing. Here where I live we are beginning to worship the asparagus deity. By next week I shall be worshipping at the altar of rhubarb.

It will be a while before the potato god calls and carrots same as parsnip call us to prayer when the nights draw in.

Mind. We have good communion wine from last year's crab apples. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:09 AM

700.

The Devil made me do it....

---

And yes, Pete, I do think that the majority of what "scientists say" is true. Of course, that means stuff that has gone through the Scientific Process and vetted through the academic publish process and such. But yea, I get my science from science, not from the Bible.

The Bible is a book of faith - nothing more, nothing less. I read it every day and it was a primary aspect of my undergraduate studies in Theology. But no, I don't look to the Bible for information on anthropology, or on the origins of the human race.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:42 PM

Worship the melon, the season will sook be here to partake of its flesh. Join Opus Melopepo.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:40 PM

pete. What is the difference between interpreting differently based on honest questioning and interpreting dishonestly to support a myth?

What is your basis of a young earth? Is it because fossil evidence doesn't stack up? Is it because there is something that fundamentally prevents any other interpretation from having merit?

Please. If there is anything that supports it, say it. I know of no text that supports it. None. I hear that some say it must be so because the Bible stories say so. Is that the basis of your assertion? is that the bedrock of the alternative scientists you quote?

Fo you know the difference between stories and evidence?

It is difficult to rise above insulting you if you insist on such things. The insults are perhaps treating you as an equal. Humouring you would be more insulting, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:25 PM

&c.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:51 AM

I have yet to see a constructive point about science or scientists in any of your posts. I have seen lots of abuse. Abuse with a wee smile is still abuse. You are a highly-ignorant and prejudiced man.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:36 AM

joe- i note that you accept what the majority of scientists say is true.correct me if that is not the import of your meaning.
if that is correct,i should have thought that science would be severely hampered because we know the majority have been wrong in the past many times.
failing to give an answer to straighforward questions except with abuse does not strike me as being scientific.
and why is it acceptable to slag off scientists that interpret the evidence differently but charge detracters from your own view with being insulting for being in polite disagreement.
is that the sort of science that you trust,joe?
there is nopoint in my replying to steves last post as there is nothing constructive contained therein.
but if he does want to answer the questions and lay off the abuse we can resume!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:40 AM

I don't think I was saying that the Bible isn't literature, just that we shouldn't be elevating it to the status of a work of art. The Bible is a proselytising tool. What is in the Bible is highly selective. You could probably compile a substantial alternative Bible from what's been deliberately left out. As I said, I don't deny that there are many lyrical passages in the Bible (though I suspect much is lost, or perverted, in translation). But art it ain't, for the reason I gave before.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 02:21 AM

John P., I think you and I need to sit down and have a beer together. I think we'd really enjoy it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:41 AM

Joe, I see we are cross-posting with two different conversations. I don't have time to respond about the Bible tonight, except to say that I have indeed read it, parts of it multiple times. More later, I hope, although I have some heavy and time-consuming medical stuff coming up over the next few days that will limit my Mudcat time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:35 AM

Joe, I have to disagree that no one attacks atheists around here. Pete, certainly, and Ron Davies every chance he gets. Olddude, too. And all these recent threads of Jack's have been pointed attacks. I also see a lot of the lack of tolerance and acceptance for religious belief that you have noted, but do you really think the atheist crowd starts talking about religion out of the blue? Isn't it usually in response to something? The things I dislike the most about the atheist attacks are that some of us apparently expect you and Jack and a few others to defend any and all Christian dogma and policy, and to carry the weight of every bad thing that has been done in the name of religion throughout history. A really foolish expectation.

I think one of the things you've been trying to get across, and which is very obvious to anyone who has Christian friends, is that Christianity happens in the individual, and most of the time causes them to concentrate on being better people. Unfortunately, it also seems to drive some individuals to intolerance and a desire to control other peoples' lives. Christianity also happens on the level of huge bureaucratic money-machines headed by power seekers that go about doing evil things. Many non-religious huge bureaucratic money-machines headed by power seekers go about doing evil things as well, which makes me thing the problem isn't necessarily caused by the religion. The point is that the two versions of Christianity don't really seem to have a lot of impact on each other, and attacking individuals for the sins of the organization is not only misdirected but almost certain to make the individuals hurt and angry.

But I see just as many or more blithe but offensive assumptions being made about atheists. The tragic part is that I think many Christians are unaware of how offensive they are being, as if they've never stepped outside their assumption that Christianity is the only viable way of living long enough to see how smug and superior they seem to others. I'm not talking about you, Joe, of course. You are almost always astonishingly level-headed and fair. I think it must be that attitude of acceptance of others you display as strongly as you display your faith and how it works in your life.

I agree, why can't we just get along? I'd love to have a discussion with a believer where we talk about the actual beliefs held by the individual and the reasons for them. I'd like to explore how a Christian goes about selecting which of the beliefs to hold and which to call metaphor. I'd like to explore the nature of belief itself, where and why it arises in a person. I'd like to deconstruct the symbolism contained in the Catholic mass from the point of view of Eastern meditation philosophy and whether or not there is an experience that the symbols describe. I'd like to talk about the religious experience of bliss and how it relates to blissful states of mind described by other religions and cultures. I'd like to compare and contrast prayer with Wiccan spell-casting. And I'd like to do it all without being put down for being an atheist, without science being expected to provide philosophical answers, and without anyone in the conversation being blamed for the Spanish Inquisition or rapist priests.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:10 AM

John P., I take it that you have never read the Bible.

The judgmentalism you speak of, really isn't there - that's something imposed on the Bible by fundamentalists who excerpt "proof texts" to prove the rightness of their prejudices. For the most part, the Bible is what it is - the good, the bad, and the ugly. Jonah and Job are terrific folktales, and the stories in the books of Samuel and Kings are great storytelling. Isaiah is wonderful, beautiful poetry - as are the psalms and proverbs.
The Gospels are good stories, as is Acts. The letters of Paul range from the absurd to the sublime - but I sure wish he'd get rid of his misogynism.

Oh, and Genesis and Exodus are great stories - if you don't try to look on them as history. They're written in mythological language, dontchaknow. And they're every bit as valuable as Homer, who also wrote in mythological language.

The Bible expresses the beliefs of people at the time the books were written. Sometimes, those beliefs are objectionable to us in our modern age, but we're not compelled to live without advancing beyond the beliefs and lives of people living at the time of David.

But no, you can't just throw out the Bible and say it's trash. It has true literary value, and it chronicles the thinking of a people over a significant period of time.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 16 May 13 - 12:26 AM

While there are some really nice passages in the Bible, it is largely a really dreadful read. Great literature it is not, nor is it history. Philosophically, the really offensive stuff in the Old Testament far outweighs the relatively small part of the New Testament that isn't smugly self-satisfied. Judgmentalism pervades the whole thing. Yes, we would all be better people if we lived like Jesus said (when he wasn't talking about God), and there is some nice poetry in Ecclesiastics and Psalms. Odd bits of interesting philosophy scattered here and there. Beyond that, not a lot that's very readable. The only really interesting thing about it, and the reason for it's longevity, is that it is the holy book of a major religion.

The only reason the Bible is ever taught as literature in schools is because Christians want it to be. Stim says it has been "useful" for thousands of years, but useful isn't literature. Useful is being the holy book of a major religion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Bible as a holy book, and it is obviously a very effective one. To believers it clearly has great meaning. But calling it great literature seems rather self-serving, a way to insert it into secular life in a way that it doesn't merit, hoping that no one will want to offend Christians by saying it doesn't belong there.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 12:19 AM

Steve Shaw says: When I think about it, I get far more worked up about people who attack honest science in these threads than about those who attack atheism.

Once again: how can I disagree with that?


Then again, I don't think there have been any serious attacks against atheists here at Mudcat. Every once in a while, someone will launch a timid defense of "creationism" or "intelligent design," But there really haven't been any outright attacks on atheism.

So, it would be nice to dispense with the atheist-theist animosity here altogether, since nobody really needs to feel threatened.

As for me, my religious beliefs and practices have to coincide with what Steve calls "honest science." If it's generally accepted within the scientific community, I most likely accept it also.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:53 PM

Your idea that the Bible is not literature is quite novel(no pun intended). In the past, it was fairly standard for the non-religious to say that The Bible was a great literary work, but it was not the word of God. Now you have taken it in a whole new direction.

Given that the Bible has been around, in one form or another for say, 3700 years, and has remained useful for most of that time, I am not sure that your assessment is really the one we ought to hang our hats on. Of course, I am not a scientist...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:32 PM

You are far and away the most insulting, prejudiced and ignorant person on this forum. You deny honest science. In so doing, you diss the efforts of thousands of honest people who are trying to answer the big questions by getting down to the hard work required to answer them. But you yourself have done no work. You rely entirely, and lazily, on the declarations of people who are little less than completely insane. You ignore hard-won evidence and preach your lazy received wisdom. You are clearly an embarrassment to all the believers on this forum (ever noticed, old chap, the silence from believers that follows your every post?). You are on your own. Maybe you'll take strength from that. Another way of looking at it from your point of view is that you would do yourself a big favour by just disappearing. We need your inane input like we need a second arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 May 13 - 12:51 PM

still evading the question steve.
just asserting that dawkins does answer it on other videos is not exactly evidence that he does.
or that you can.
if "evolution is true" and is testable,verifiable science surely a few examples relating to the question should be no problem steve.
alternatively an admission that there are no known examples will suffice - though it would highlight the faith factor of darwinism !.

thanks for clarifying joe.the only atheist that has been consistently civil [at least to me] is bill.my failings relate to grammtical errors and not agreeing but not to using insulting language.except that the disagreement is taken as insulting,by some!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:31 AM

But evolution is true, even though you keep telling me I shouldn't be saying it. That can only mean you don't think it's true. Evolution is true, and the theory of evolution by natural selection is a superb and comprehensive explanation of it. That is not to say that the explanation can never be tweaked (perish the thought) as new knowledge comes to light, or that new mechanisms won't be discovered, but evolution happens and no-one will ever credibly overturn the fact. It simply isn't possible any more. Now that's what I think, and I care not a jot for your nit-pickings over what I've said before. I'm really happy to clarify that for you. It might not be what you think but it's what I think, which you've known all along you annoying bugger, and I have no time for your displays of philosophical musings over the meaning of science. Call me Mr Philistine for that, but the problem here is that your interventions rarely have anything to do with the substantive matter to hand. Start a thread on the philosophy of science and I really, really promise not to bug you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:52 AM

Steve Shaw

I think it's OK to be fearless about putting across our contradictory and provocative views with no holds barred as long as lack of thought, misrepresentation (a cardinal sin in my book) and prejudice can be left at the door. It's annoying when you seem to be spending half your time informing eejits who should be able to read that you did not say or mean what they claim you said or meant, even though you'd typed it in plain English in the first place.

Quite agree, Steve, which is why lines like "I know you think evolution isn't true, you poor thing" are so annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:59 AM

I don't understand your post, Stim.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:57 AM

"Why can't we all just get along?"

I think most of us do. I get along fine with you and Stim and Don though our perspectives are different (always bearing in mind that front-of-the-house comments might well be masking cordial offline relationships). When I think about it, I get far more worked up about people who attack honest science in these threads than about those who attack atheism. I think it's OK to be fearless about putting across our contradictory and provocative views with no holds barred as long as lack of thought, misrepresentation (a cardinal sin in my book) and prejudice can be left at the door. It's annoying when you seem to be spending half your time informing eejits who should be able to read that you did not say or mean what they claim you said or meant, even though you'd typed it in plain English in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:27 AM

Perhaps, when the fundies like Pete stop conflating Atheism with lack of morals and ethics, they might be tolerable people Joe.

Not everybody is as tolerant as you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:09 AM

Steve Shaw said: Well I'd warrant that the vast majority of threads in which we squabble over these things are not started by atheists.

Joe said: I gotta agree with that, too, Steve.

---

A couple of people called me on that, and they're right. The plethora of atheist-baiting threads has come just in the last few weeks, and mostly from one person. For a long time before that, the Conventional Wisdom was that Atheism is the Official Doctrine of Mudcat and No Other Opinions Are Tolerated. That was unfair, but so is this overabundance of atheist-baiting threads. I wish people could learn to tolerate each other. There are wise, good people who are religious; and there are wise, good people who are not religious. Why can't we all just get along?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 May 13 - 10:24 PM

Steve-Just one thought, and that is that your idea that the Bible is novel, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:30 PM

I honestly don't care. I know what I'm speaking as, thanks. Have you actually got anything to contribute?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:27 PM

Steve Shaw
I'm not speaking as a "scientist" thanks.

I'm glad you said that. I think some people are under the impression that you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 13 - 01:08 PM

He did not evade the question and the tape was not doctored. It wasn't edited, that's all. Do you suppose that every interview you see on the telly is done without a few takes? Do you suppose that every CD track you hear is a live first take? Do you suppose that Gone With The Wind was made in real time? What kind of world are you living in? Have you seen the dozens of interviews and debates in which he's been remarkably alert and sure-footed, on the self-same topic that you're accusing him of being evasive over? So what's your motivation for picking out the one that is wholly unrepresentative of the man? It isn't driven by honesty, is it, pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 May 13 - 12:18 PM

so steve,you watched the vid.that is a small fraction of the challenge but i suppose it is a start.of course i expected you to claim that it was doctored by us awfully dishonest creationist types.
i dont however know how you could know that except that your presuppositions demand it.
be that as it may,the challege was not met.if he aquited himself well it was only by evading the question - just as you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 13 - 09:33 AM

so steve,seems that if you dont have an answer to a challenge

Well, as you keep on burbling about this, yes I did watch the video the moment I read your post (next time, have the civility and good manners to indicate where one might find the things you wish us to watch. And don't give me that "I can't do links" bleat. Neither can I. But I can copy and paste the YouTube clip heading into my post, and so can you). In broadcast interviews things like that happen all the time. Someone decided to include the pause in order to put Dawkins in a bad light when the thing was put out. He actually acquitted himself quite well after the pause. But never mind. Do continue to clutch at straws. And do watch the dozens of other videos on YouTube in which he shows himself to be one of the best of the lot when it comes to thinking on his feet. Naturally, such selectiveness as you have shown here is typical of you bible-bashers. Go on, gimme an out-of-context chapter 'n' verse for our entertainment. You must have hundreds up your sleeve.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 13 - 09:22 AM

I know you think evolution isn't true, you poor thing

You know perfectly well that I think nothing of the sort.

Good. That's settled then.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:21 AM

Steve Shaw
You drank too much beer on your weekend.

That's the spirit! Don't waste time addressing the issues, go straight for the ad hominem attack.

This conversation is about certainty concerning the existence or non-existence of God.

I don't think so. You were responding to Joe saying "that's where fundamentalist Christians and militant atheists come together - in their insistence on certainty, in their insistence on their being in possession of the Truth. You certainly seem to think you are in possession of The Truth.

I know you think evolution isn't true, you poor thing

You know perfectly well that I think nothing of the sort. You have, at times, insisted on the distinction between evolution and the theory of evolution while using the two interchangeably at other times. It is unclear which you mean here. Whatever, I do not say that evolution isn't true I say that the statement "Evolution is true" is not meaningful in a scientific context. It makes no more sense than "Evolution is purple".

As I have said (and you haven't objected), your version of science corresponds to Logical Positivism, a philosophy that was discredited and abandoned, even by its advocates, forty years and more ago. It was displaced by falsifiability which you reject even though Dawkins does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:02 AM

so steve,seems that if you dont have an answer to a challenge you just make more assertion,mixed in with a little dose of ridicule.
you ,it seems are fully committed to your faith in darwin but there might be others following this thread who note your evation and draw their own conclusions.

you sure about that joe?
apart from the current batch started by jack,the only other thread started by a christian was kents some time ago [on this general theme].thats the only one that i recall.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket on a PC that loses posts!!!
Date: 14 May 13 - 04:11 AM

Next attempt.. Sorry.

Some people are missing the point here. As ever, go back to the OP and see what our nautical friend had to say. He put forward an idea that those who knock religions are just expounding a different religion. As a statement, I could say that I might agree with the idea that there are organisations putting forward an alternative to having to equate morals with superstition. The British Secular Society and The Humanist Organisation spring to mind, and I am sure that what we read of atheist churches and services etc in the more silly end of the Western world do no more than reinfoce the view that atheism is a creed.

However, and to repeat repeats... Atheism is not a title with a strict defining fence. I can say I am atheist and mean one thing and you can read into that something entirely different. For instance, I say there is no evidence that the metaphysical side of religions have any basis beyond superstition and therefore, I have no interest in the whole concept. Someone reading that might assume I am categorically saying there is no God. After all, that's what "atheists" think eh?

There is no more evidence for God than there is a lack of God. The evidence for refuting many things ascribed to a God is another matter. No. Flying carpets, creatures in his image, rising from the dead, seven days to make a planet, causing natural disasters by intervention, impregnation of a human by mythical creatures with wings, tablets of stone with writing on them that was not written by a human, parting the sea, burning bushes, bringing down stone walls with a single horn, a wonam being turned into a pillar of salt.... Sorry, my knowldege of the bible is little and then goes back to childhood to recall the above, but there is as much evidence within the demonstrable laws of physics , let alone probability, to dismiss such things out of hand.

Many people who profess a faith seem to agree that these are parables to encourage debate and soul searching. Fine. In which case, why not spend as much effort disowning or at least reining in those who make you look idiots by their literal approach as you do trying to ridicule and brow beat those who dismiss it all as medeivel curiosity?

the issue is; regardless of the country you are in whilst reading this, there are people trying to influence government to allow and promote forms of hatred, bigotry and suppression of discovery of knowledge on the basis that their hold on society is weakening, and in the immortal words of Corporal Jones, the fuzzy wuzzies don't like it up 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 13 - 12:02 AM

Steve Shaw says: Well I'd warrant that the vast majority of threads in which we squabble over these things are not started by atheists.

I gotta agree with that, too, Steve.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:40 PM

I meant bracketed with art, not as art. It makes a difference. I made the same mistake when I typed the post that vanished.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:09 PM

I'm not speaking as a "scientist" thanks.

This is what you said:

It's not a copout. That's the way it is. Literature and the arts, not science, give us insight into the human experience A lot of people may not get it, apparently you never did, but that's not my fault. If you'd grown up in my house you would have had everything explained to you in a way you could understand...

Well, if I read that correctly, you appear to be surreptitiously bracketing religious literature (namely the Bible) as art. Well it isn't. Art to me is a path to understanding ourselves and the universe a bit better. What I get from art is a sense of human endeavour providing revelation. The Bible, the prayers and the hymns are not art. They are proselytising tools. Why else has the Bible been so brutally edited? Where are the gospels of Mary Magdalene and Thomas (who, inconveniently, and of all people, neglected to mention the crucifixion)? There may well be occasional lyrical passages therein, but those texts and hymns are pushily and heavily tendentious in a way that art, which first engages you then sits back in order for you to interpret subjectively and be edified, is most decidedly not. And you couldn't be more wrong about science. Science provides insight into the universe, into the world, into nature and into ourselves that is true. Art and science come together beautifully in mathematics, too. Good science, like art, is the fruit of honest human endeavour and has opened up new worlds, not just of technological advance but also of a delicious understanding of the natural world, insight of a strength and beauty that makes religious "insight" look banal, no matter how much gloss is put on it by theologians. I get it all right. I get it that you don't get science.

As for what went on in your house, well it doesn't go on in a lot of religious houses. We got 9-11 because the enlightenment you describe doesn't go on in all religious houses. Not nearly all, I'd wager.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 May 13 - 08:23 PM

Ah, Steve! What makes you think that anything that you say would bother me? Some of you scientists think you understand everything better than anyone else, and that we'll all wither and die when you set us straight. Always glad to hear your thought, of course, but understand that I regard them as just that-- your thoughts--

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 01:16 PM

am i right or is i wrong but did steve say that it all happened according the "known laws of nature" followed by an admission that this interesting process is as yet undiscovered.

You're wrong. You're always wrong. This "interesting process" is far from undiscovered, but a good deal has been discovered, and we are closing in. We are, for example, now within nanoseconds of the Big Bang. And, when we can't explain something, we keep investigating. We never shove highly-improbable "explanations" into gaps. We acknowledge the gap and carry on with the honest science. You wouldn't understand that. You can't even be honest with yourself.

By the way, I spent half an hour answering Stim and my post vanished into the ether. If I can muster some energy later I'll do it again. Though he may not much care for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: RichM
Date: 13 May 13 - 01:12 PM



Boring topic.

"Believe", or don't "Believe".

Get on with your lives...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 01:08 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T, I think the "militant atheists" described in the thread, are those who feel compelled to attack or convert those who believe in God. Otherwise, what would atheists have to be "militant" about?

Hmm. So we "feel compelled", eh? Well I'd warrant that the vast majority of threads in which we squabble over these things are not started by atheists. It's a bit like ten armed blokes attacking my house, then I get called militant for fighting back with my rolling pin.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 May 13 - 12:21 PM

am i right or is i wrong but did steve say that it all happened according the "known laws of nature" followed by an admission that this interesting process is as yet undiscovered.
ie-it is a faith position
an evolution of the gaps
a contradition!
that was just relating to abiogenesis.
then there was the evasion of the mutation/nat selection producing new information.
can you or dawkins answer the question on that video?
ie- can you givean example of mutations leading to new info in the genome.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 13 - 11:27 AM

Gee, I can buy all that, Steve - just not the throwing of ashes up and into the wind....

Don(Wyziwyg)T, I think the "militant atheists" described in the thread, are those who feel compelled to attack or convert those who believe in God. Otherwise, what would atheists have to be "militant" about?

And I do think such militants exist. Their tactic is the same used by militant right-wingers, argumentum ad absurdum - take the position held by others, oversimplify and redefine it to the point where it's ridiculous, and then condemn it.

Tolerance is all I ask for.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:20 AM

I guess I still can't understand why you are so insistent on your need to refute what others believe. Is there some reason why it is so hard for you to say, "It doesn't work for me," and then just let it be?

What you believe is entirely your affair. As long as you can accept that the world is full of many alternative beliefs and none, that yours has no automatic precedence over any others, and that you have no moral right to propagate your particular belief-by-accident as truth to other people (especially children, who end up as Christians only because they happened to be accidentally born to a Christian family in a Christian country). "Let it be" doesn't do it for me in those circumstances. I don't deny that there are some religious families who educate their children in matters religious very well, but many do not and there is nowhere near enough of a decent template that ensures that children are left unfettered by a particular belief system. Saying that you do the right thing, which I don't deny, does not let the whole of Christianity, or Islam, or any other proselytising faith, off the hook.

It has made my life very rich, learning that there are many answers to the questions of life.

I can only commend to you again the answers (and the quest for them) based on rational thought. That is not anything like as abjectly boring and Spock-like as it sounds. The world, nature and the universe are wonderful in their beauty, complexity and their amazing ordinariness. There's more than enough there to enrich your life for ever without the need for resort to irrational speculations.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:04 AM

I don't know any of these atheists you refer to who are in possession of certainty.

I can only think of one. For someone who has banged on about evolution being TRUE it seems odd to claim that you are not "in possession of certainty".

You drank too much beer on your weekend. This conversation is about certainty concerning the existence or non-existence of God. I know you think evolution isn't true, you poor thing, but that's a whole nother matter. And, frankly, one that you waste far too much of your remaining energy on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 May 13 - 08:18 AM

Steve Shaw
Perhaps Snail would articulate ... where there is any hint of "religiosity" in anything I say.

Well, "It's a great truth is a good start. That's the sort of thing God botherers say; it has no place in science. You're OK with the Logical Positivism are you?

Trouble is, I go away for a weekend of beer, women and song and things move on.

Steve Shaw
I don't know any of these atheists you refer to who are in possession of certainty.

I can only think of one. For someone who has banged on about evolution being TRUE it seems odd to claim that you are not "in possession of certainty".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:49 AM

""I guess I still can't understand why you are so insistent on your need to refute what others believe. Is there some reason why it is so hard for you to say, "It doesn't work for me," and then just let it be?""

Look at the title of the thread Joe. That will tell you who is being attacked, and by whom.

I think Steve is entitled to put forward a defence, whether I agree with him or not.

This is why I feel more at home in talking to him than to many on the other side.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 13 - 12:51 AM

Steve, think twice about specifying that your ashes should be thrown upwards into the wind. I tried that with a friend's ashes, and ended up with a mouthful....


I guess I still can't understand why you are so insistent on your need to refute what others believe. Is there some reason why it is so hard for you to say, "It doesn't work for me," and then just let it be?

And again, it seems to me that the fundamentalist Christians do the same damn thing. It's their way or nothing. I've spent a lifetime in a respectful exploration of a wide variety the myths and traditions and beliefs of many creeds and cultures. It has made my life very rich, learning that there are many answers to the questions of life.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:38 PM

It's not a copout. That's the way it is. Literature and the arts, not science, give us insight into the human experienceA lot of people may not get it, apparently you never did, but that's not my fault. If you'd grown up in my house you would have had everything explained to you in a way you could understand, whenever you showed an interest, and, perhaps unfortunately, a lot of times that you had no particular interest. I'm like that...