BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM

..or is it the other way around...without movement there is no friction...Oh well, either way...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:47 PM

199, actually. THIS is 200.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

Cross-posted. You win.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:50 PM

Well, I'd hate to break my record!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:51 PM

...or would that be 'TOUCHE'...again!?!?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM

Folks, if we're going to talk about composers who were not religious and put it in their works, look no further than Scott Joplin. In his 1915 opera, Treemonisha, he equates hoodoo and Christianity both as rank superstition holding black people back. In the clip below, we see Parson Alltalk sermonizing while the "conjurors" walk among the crowd throwing magic dust. Joplin told them through the main character that the true way to liberation was through education not religion.

In the clip, the people are told to be good not because a god cares or because the bible says so but merely because it is:

Good Advice

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:10 PM

Or Lennon's Imagine?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

Futwick: "In the clip, the people are told to be good not because a god cares or because the bible says so but merely because it is", )Then you say).."Good Advice"..(and that links to the video.

Question: By what criteria do you judge what is 'Good'??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:43 PM

Goofballupagus, just to mend a misconception that you seem to share with many people about the protocols of the sport of fencing:   It is NOT the fencer scoring the touch who calls "Touché!" It is considered discourteous and quite bad form to claim scoring a point.

Fencing is very much a game of honor and courtesy, to the point where many experienced fencers claim that they can get real clues as to a person's character, intelligence, and honesty by the way they conduct themselves in a fencing match. I've found this to be true.

It is for the fencer who has been score against to announce that he or she has been touched by calling "Touché!" which is "Touched" in French (much of the language associated with fencing is French, although many Italian terms are used also).

A fencer who claims touches and who doesn't acknowledge touches generally winds up standing a corner somewhere because no one wants to fence with him or her.

Just thought I would instruct you in a few of the courtesies of the sport.

Don Firth

P. S. Now back to our regular screaming match.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:58 PM

Care for some games of chess??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:00 PM

"By what criteria do you judge what is 'Good'??"

By the way, a very good question. You're in good form today!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM

Well, with ALL due respects, when we began our 'exchanges', you may remember that I posted that my posts with you were actually an opportunity to have both sides of the 'debate'(taken to the limit)...in order to have people (readers) THINK, beyond the propaganda..if I recall, I said, "...that instead of people being TAUGHT WHAT to think, they should be taught HOW to think"..and that would be objectively, of course....and not just unthinkingly parroting frequently repeated 'talking points'....(come to think of it, we may have either met or exceeded the limits, but that's another story)...I also posted that, for the musicians who write lyrics, that I would be posting BUNCHES of phrases that should jog a few out of any 'writer's block'(though I didn't use the phrase 'writer's block'...and actually, I thanked you ahead of time on that one, for providing that opportunity!!!!
If you have been following the news about that subject, we covered most all of the legal arguments..WAY AHEAD OF THEM!!!
We kicked ASS!!!
(wink!)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:40 PM

....oh, and I forgot..I also mentioned about using the 'angst of the political debate' to emit emotions, from the musicians who could tap into it, and use it for their playing...and making it tangible...I even pissed off Bobert, when I suggested using the death of his cat.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:06 PM

jack apparently you haven't read my post so I'll post it again.

Dogmatism analyzed

I wish you would read it because it makes a lot of sense and eschews and answers the rancor
that many have toward atheism.

I did read all of this thread and I'm not misinterpreting anything that was said.

I heard you say loud and clear that certain atheists are "jerks" which doesn't sound like you've read any of their works as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:32 PM

Stringsinger: "I heard you say loud and clear that certain atheists are "jerks" which doesn't sound like you've read any of their works as well."

Well, just for the record, there are some 'clerics' who are jerks, too!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:01 AM

I owe Jack an apology. It was comical of me to introduce the same article that he already posted. I'll try to do better in the future and read everything that people post. I admit to not reading the opening article.

Jack, however, the idea that there are people with which you don't agree are "jerks" is short-sighted particularly when it comes to Dawkins who criticizes religion as a delusion.
I think Dawkins is clinically correct although I acknowledge that there are some religious people who contribute positive actions in society but not too many comparatively.

Dawkins in his books and lectures really has an open minded investigatory nature and is not coming from a dogmatic position but one that has researched the subject carefully and is anything but a "jerk".

I have read Dennet, Dawkins, Hitchens and Sam Harris and I don't agree with everything they say, with maybe the exception of Dawkins since he is a scientist, they aren't "jerks" in the sense that they are bad people. Hitchens is the most abrasive and perhaps his alcohol was talking some of the time but if they are "Jerks" then Christianity and many of the world's religions are filled with "jerks" if we accept your standards here.

A critical reaction to religion doesn't constitute anyone to be a "jerk".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:13 AM

In celebration of the advent of spring this year, the new Pope has issued a decree requiring all bishops, priests, nuns and choirboys associated with the Catholic hierarchy to foreswear any jerkery for twenty-four hours. Esse Non Jercues, the Papal Bull issued Sunday, imposes the conduct of non-jerkiness on all male members of the Church. The Pope acknowledged in an off-record interview that it was risking considerable non-compliance, but he declared that only through experimentation can the Church progress into the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:58 PM

Stringsinger, de Waal's article imho is no easier on Dr. Dawkins than I am. It implies that he is a hypocrite who does not see the "religion" in his own behavior.
My thesis about Dr. Dawkins being a jerk stems from his mocking of Religious people. The God Delusion is a deliberately offensive title.
If he can call me mentally ill without meeting me to sell a few extra books, I can call him a jerk.
It is easy to agree with Dawkins without being a jerk yourself. Avoid the name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:07 PM

Good one Amos.

In response to the Pope's announcement, the Association of TV and Radio Preachers of America have announced that they too will take a day off from being jerks. Their programming will be replaced by a fine selection of liturgical music.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:19 PM

Jack the Sailor: "It is easy to agree with Dawkins without being a jerk yourself. Avoid the name calling."

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Nice one, huh?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:24 PM

GfS, would you please explain what you mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

Just re-read your sentence....I couldn't have said it any ironically!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM

I didn't mean it ironically. Though I guess it did come off as dry.

I just meant to say this I guess. It seems to me that Dr. Dawkins does make some good logical points in his book. But the marketing and promotion, especially the title, seem very jerk-like.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:35 PM

I didn't mean it ironically. Though I guess it did come off as dry.

I just meant to say this I guess. It seems to me that Dr. Dawkins does make some good logical points in his book. But the marketing and promotion, especially the title, seem very jerk-like.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:40 PM

Dry, but witty, just the same....oh no!.....you might fall into designated 'troll bin'.....but that's only by someone who just can't appreciate it....no sense of humor!

(I was going to sign off with 'Regards'...but that may take some more deliberations........)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:14 PM

""For a long time it has been known that the first systems of representations with which men have pictured to themselves the world and themselves were of religious origin. There is no religion that is not a cosmology at the same time that it is a speculation upon divine things. If philosophy and the sciences were born of religion, it is because religion began by taking the place of the sciences and philosophy."" — Émile Durkheim, The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life (1912),

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

Ed, I feel that is a muddled translation,

"it is because religion began by taking the place of the sciences and philosophy."

"it is because religion began by being the repository of the sciences and philosophy." Maybe...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM

a persuasive case that Dawkins is a jerk.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM

JTS, As I resist the temptation to translatate "the Bible, I also resist the temtation to translate, or speculate this quote from ther original French. (I prefer to leave it to the better qualified than I. So, I will go with the orginal,as posted, and I understand the meaning. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:13 PM

This bit from the Wikipedia entry on Durkheim's "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life" clarifies his perspective:

"Durkheim... argued that our primary categories for understanding the world have their origins in religion. It is religion, Durkheim writes, that gave rise to most if not all other social constructs, including the larger society.... In the end, even the most logical and rational pursuit of science can trace its origins to religion. Durkheim states that, "Religion gave birth to all that is essential in the society."

If anyone here cared to read even a page or so of his book, the discussion here would be much more interesting than it is. I'm not holding my breath, though, because most of you didn't even read the article in the OP.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:16 PM

Thanks Stim.

I like that interpretation a lot.

Sorry that I offended you Ed. I simply did not think that he meant to say that religion took the place of two things that didn't exist before religion it took their place. Your translation make him look like he did not understand English grammar.   Thought it would be easier and clearer to say what was implied by the quote than to say what I just did. I was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:51 AM

So.. if a book says something you disagree with, the author is a jerk? By your standards then The US Library of Congress and British Library combined would be called the wall of jerk because I doubt logic and reason could ever stray into your personal radar field.

It is called The God Delusion on account of the content and conclusion. I doubt he put any thought into whether he could provoke a confused idiot as a bonus. You aren't that important you know.

Once you work out that your insults of others are no better than the ones you receive in return, you might stop trawling puerile articles to further your own delusion.

You realise you are making even Goofus appear rational. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 10:59 AM

Musket: "You realise you are making even Goofus appear rational. .."

Mudcatters rejoice!!..Musket is coming to...out of his coma!!!....Ok, how many fingers am I holding up???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:24 AM

""a persuasive case that Dawkins is a jerk.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/""

I read every word of that article and it totally fails to make its case and the author comes across as barely rational when he describes New Atheists (whatever the hell those might be) as Islamophobes because they don't believe in Allah.

So Atheists, who don't believe in God, don't believe in Allah either?

Well.....DUH! What a f**king surprise!

Disbelief in something does not equate to hatred, JtS.

I don't believe in fairies, but I don't hate them. For me to hate them, they would have to exist!!

That's the whole bloody point.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

There is a concerted effort on the part of Christian or other religious people to demonize atheists. (Duh!) Articles like the puerile one above reinforce that behavior.

I don't know any atheist that would desecrate a Mosque or call Islamic people "towel heads" but I certainly know a lot of Christians who would do just that. I try not to know them but
they keep turning up much to my disgust. Atheists such as Dawkins et. al. don't go around burning bibles or korans. They investigate and listen to people who spout their religion and wear it on their sleeves.

Islamophobia is another buzz word used like "terrorist" or "socialist" or "liberal" to demean those who disagree with a certain point of view.

Whatever you think "militant atheism" is, Jack, the three men who have been criticized are not totally in agreement with each other but they defend the right for each other's views to be heard. You may not like those views but to dismiss them as "jerks" only brings back the old adage, when you point a finger at someone else, three fingers point back at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 12:17 PM

Stringsinger: "Islamophobia is another buzz word used like "terrorist" or "socialist" or "liberal" to demean those who disagree with a certain point of view."

Oh!!..I got it!!..You mean like 'bigot', 'racist', 'homophobic', 'hate monger', 'Tea Party radicals', 'Right wing Christian'....

Problem is, this country is being torn apart with this nonsensical rhetoric..and this is by design. Remember, "United we stand, divided we fall"???...so the question you need to be asking yourselves is WHO has the most to 'gain' by dividing us...musicians????..nope....minorities??..nope....spiritually minded people??....nope....how about the back of the curtain controllers??...hmmm...getting warmer....the bankster funded governmental arm of corporations????....getting hotter!.....
Then the question goes to 'WHY???'.....is the majority of people IN the corporate/bankster/governmental arm...nope....so it's a minority of wealthy people who control the dialogue....hmmm...getting REAL hot....
do you think that it takes TWO to make the argument???....mm hmmm....like the TWO parties who ARE the governmental arm of the corporate/banksters????...well, who else???.....and all this dialogue is scripted through 'talking points'.....bingo!!!!
All those who have been suckered into this crap, raise your hands!
Suckers!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 01:28 PM

How many fingers is Goofus holding up? The fact that he can at all is progress I suppose.

Many people say they are tired of all the mud slinging on these atheism knocking threads. Im not.   They help me realise what a concerted effort is going into forthright assertive attacks by some people who claim to be Christians.

Who told you to use Mudcat in order to push your fantasy on others Jack? Why have you stopped trying to argue your point for that matter? is it because you realise what an absurd showing you have made? Your credibility has got about as low as possible. Yo know? That's sad.

Starry Pete was celebrating earlier because they baptised an atheist in his church the other day. You realise of course that most baptisms are of atheists. Children have not made any commitment and even if they did it is null and void. The last christening I went to there were three Christians in the church. The vicar organist and nice old lady handing out service order sheets. Most of us get christened through tradition which is fine but the numbers allow the church leaders to tell politicians they have many members.

Did you know that till very recently in England you were counted as Christian unless you stated otherwise?

Then an ex Archbishop of Canterbury the other day moaned that government must listen to him and his mates. Fook 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 01:40 PM

You known a few Stalinists in your day, haven't you Frank?

Stalin was an avowed atheist, and he desecrated more than 20,000 mosques. He also orchestrated the deportation of tens of thousands of Muslims, particularly from the Caucasus...needless to say, untold thousands of them died. But you know that...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:25 PM

..continuing from Stim....Not to mention many Christians and Jews or any religious factions who he felt was a threat to his tyrannical power.
Could it possibly be that history teaches us that man never learns from history??....Hasn't anyone noticed that with all the stepped up rhetoric and talking points gone berserk, that we have been conned into carrying on about 'religion' much the same way Stalin, Marx, Mao, and Pol Pot, and Hitler did....but now, they've got us doing it on the local level...when do you get the clue??..when you find yourselves turning in local prayer groups to Homeland Security??????
Hop aboard the clue train..and snap now and avoid the rush!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:53 PM

"Did you know that till very recently in England you were counted as Christian unless you stated otherwise?"
In England not too long ago, if you gave your religion in hospital "none" it was invariably entered as "Church of England" - presumably the lady behind the desk didn't count C of E a 'real' religion.
"Stalin was an avowed atheist"
Maybe arising out of his experiences in the seminary while training to be a priest!
Stalin had as much to do with "Marxism" as Hitler, Pinochet, Batista, Mussolini - or even Pope Pius XII... and all the other monsters had to do with capitalism or Christianity.
The Jesuit boast - 'Give me the child for his first seven years, and I'll give you the man'
Such stuff was The Manchurian Candidate made of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:02 PM

I forgive you Musket.

For your own mental health and blood pressure, may I point out that you are in no way obligated to read anything that I post. Relax, breathe deeply.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:22 PM

Jim Carroll: "The Jesuit boast - 'Give me the child for his first seven years, and I'll give you the man'
Such stuff was The Manchurian Candidate made of."

So, I guess not all that preach the Bible know much about the spirit of it..history sure shows us that!...so lets check out where they fall down....

True..but you failed to quote Jesus who said:
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect"


Yeah yeah,....I know it's already been pointed out to me that I do expose hypocrisy!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:48 PM

GfS, Jim,

I think it is fair to say that that particular Jesuit boast strayed from the path that Jesus set.

Historically Some Jesuit priests were bullies and sadists maybe some still are. They did considerable damage to many natives in Canada if I recall my middle school history correctly. I pray for the sake of this world that the present Pope, himself a Jesuit, (or at least a former one) takes the words GfS posted very very literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:58 PM

JTS, No offense taken. My intended response was that I am wary about changing a translation, muddled or not.

I understood the quote to mean religion was "science and philospohy" before they came onto their own. And, the Christian religion had an extreme influence on both at that point in time, on scientific thinking in the early and "transition years" (as I suspect earlier religions did also in earlier years).

Here are two related quotes, from early Christian science minds:

""By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.""
Galileo Galilei

""Behind The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."" Thomas Aquinas

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:09 PM

I like this one Ed.

>>>""Behind The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."" Thomas Aquinas <<<

Is it likely that the typical Kansas school board member would understand it and take it to heart? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:50 PM

"You known a few Stalinists in your day, haven't you Frank?"

Actually I have. Stalin was a monster of course and did everything you said just like
the historical Christians did during the Crusades and at other times.

"Stringsinger, de Waal's article imho is no easier on Dr. Dawkins than I am. It implies that he is a hypocrite who does not see the "religion" in his own behavior."

Jack, I read it differently and I never heard de Waal call Dawkins a hypocrite. I have heard de Waal speak live.



"My thesis about Dr. Dawkins being a jerk stems from his mocking of Religious people. The God Delusion is a deliberately offensive title. "

Actually, the title has nothing to do with you. It has to do with religious belief in general.
If you really are sincere about what you believe then you shouldn't have to worry about what somewhat else thinks and react so defensively.

"If he can call me mentally ill without meeting me to sell a few extra books, I can call him a jerk."

You certainly can call anyone a "jerk" if you want to, but does that establish your defense
or enlighten the conversation in any way?

Dawkins doesn't need to sell a few extra books. His books, highly popular among intelligent people, have been selling for years. He is an established scientist.

You would do well to actually read one of his books. Maybe you would understand him better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:53 AM

Why, thank you, Jack!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:14 AM

Hello Sailor:
"I think it is fair to say that that particular Jesuit boast strayed from the path that Jesus set." (I'm sure you meant to write 'beast').
Isn't this what all these arguments should be about?
As an atheist (nothing more) I really don't give a toss what people believe - anybody is entitled to their own beliefs. It only becomes my problem when others attempt to force their beliefs and values onto me - it is you people who make war on the beliefs and actions of others.
Let's face it - if your Jesus (assuming he existed) returned to earth he would have stood trial in front of the HUAC and had he gained any sort of real influence he would have ended up with a CIA or MI5 bullet in the back of his head (or, at best, wearing an orange jump-suit in a concentration camp on the Cuban coast).
Christianity, or any religion is, or should be a guide to living, a philosophy; Marxism on the other hand is a socio/economic theory, an attempt to understand the world and change it, hopefully for the better.
Any failings in either of these are down to the people in the driving seat, neither is in a position to claim superiority in practical terms.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:44 AM

I forgive you Jim.

I forgive you Frank.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 08:02 AM

"I forgive you Jim."
A convenient - is somewhat arrogant back-door for you and your buddies away from dealing with the real issues which you have studiously avoided.
You may have meant it as a joke, but it's an attitude I've encountered throughout my life.
I know very few atheists who seek to impose their views on believers, but we now live in a world that has become extremely dangerous because of religious intolerance, by differing religious groups.
Some time this year, following the tragic death of a young woman who died through a hospital refusing to end an unviable pregnancy because "this is a Catholic country", Ireland will (hopefully) hold a referendum into whether these and other such circumstances should allow terminations. It is just possible that, should a reasonable and humane decision be arrived at and should the church (not to mention the howling and menacing mob of 'pro-lifers' (sic)) be resisted, Ireland will, with one mighty bound, take a flying leap into somewhere in the middle of the 20th century.
The tragic irony of all this is that any such changes will only have been made possible by the revelations of decades, possibly centuries of clerical sexual abuse of children by supposedly celibate old men who have taken it upon themselves to tell us how to live our lives.
Militant atheism my arseum.
Jim Carroll