BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:27 AM

Steve Shaw, you're just too ideological for me. You seem to thing the world is one big brainwashing machine, controlled by demagogues - so you want to ensure that the demagogues impose your way of thinking on the earth.

There's no doubt that the birth rate in Africa is high. My contention is that this is a cultural thing that has gone on for centuries, not a function of a 1968 declaration by the Pope in Rome. And yes, I would guess that you are right that that high birth rate may well be the doing of men. In general, it seems to me that impoverished rural societies tend to have higher birth rates. As societies become urban and gain a higher standard of education and living, the birth rate tends to go down. Rome has little or nothing to do with it.

If you can find me data to prove that it's Rome that's causing the birth rate in Africa, I might believe you. But to me, that sounds preposterous.

And your condemnation of Mother Teresa, heartfelt though it may be, sounds just as preposterous.

Both of your conspiracy theories seem to be based on an inflated view of the power of ideology, like you think Rome and Mother Teresa are brainwashing entire nations, or something. We get accusations like that all the time in the right-wing county where I live. My friend the former Jesuit put on a panel discussion of capital punishment at the local community college. He was accused of "brainwashing" college students because he didn't invite supporters of capital punishment to speak. And the pro-gun people make the same accusations, as do the anti-immigration people and those who think Social Security is Communism.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:31 AM

Joe Offer: "And the pro-gun people make the same accusations, as do the anti-immigration people and......"

..and vise verse!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:51 AM

Not in my county, GfS. All the brainwashing accusations come from the vast, right-wing majority. I think we're rated the most conservative county in the State of California.

In general, it seems to me that it's ideologically-oriented people (on both the left and the right) who raise the charge of "brainwashing."

Myself, I don't really believe in brainwashing, although I have found that some people are indeed stupid.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:58 AM

Here's an interesting study: World Health Organization (WHO) - Family planning in sub-Saharan Africa: progress or stagnation?. I would think that an organization like WHO would be an appropriate conveyor of birth control supplies and information - and it's a job WHO should be able to do very effectively. Why lay that responsibility on the churches?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:01 AM

Do you live in Orange County??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:13 AM

"Spirituality is a gift..it does not come from how many crucifixes are on the wall, or how many chants you repeat....it doesn't come from liturgical attendances..."
.,,.
Maybe not entirely, or even perhaps mainly, GfS. But these tendentious aids certainly help in fixing & reinforcing the 'spiritual' message, don't they?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:20 AM

Hi, GfS - I live in Placer County, northeast of Sacramento. Orange County has had a huge rise in its Hispanic population, and lost its reputation for conservatism in the process.

This page gives a political analysis of California. Figure 3 shows Placer as more conservative as Orange, but Shasta as the most conservative.

I think we share a congressman with Shasta with the recent redistricting.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 06:14 AM

Keith. You are not depriving a Christian child a place at school by lying about believing in all that nonsense to get your child a place for two reasons.

1. A state school cannot discriminate based on belief even though they break the law repeatedly by doing so. My taxes pay for equal opportunities.

2. There is no such thing as a Christian child.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 07:41 AM

My mother was a rc, and my father an athiest.

However, both were comitted to ensuring that their children were exposed to a religious experience in early life. I once overheard my father talking to one of his friends about what seemed to be a paradox on his part.He said that, while he was not a believer, he saw a personal and social benefit of the Christian messages. He indicated that he did not want to impose his views exclusively, but preferred to have his children exposed to religious thought so they could make up their own minds as adults. In reflection, that seemed to make a lot of sense to me, so, I followed his example, IMO, with good results.

While there is no doubt that humans have used religion and distorted religious messages to promote bad causes throughout history. But, this should be more of a reflection on the people "who did the deeds", rather than the instruments they misused.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:13 AM

What was interesting about my athiest father was a close friend of the local rc priest. They frequently visited each other, fished trout together, and even shared a drink or two on occasion.

When questioned about the odd relationship, I once overheard my father say "the reason we get along is we do not impose our "personal" views on each other. We have common interests and he, (the priest) knows he is not going to convert me and I know I am not going to convert him. So, we put aside those personal differences and talk about other things and just enjoy each others company".

Again, it makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:38 AM

Most of my family and friends are Christian. One or two of the in laws rather strongly. The local vicar where I used to live was a good mate, member of our Thursday night poker school and as with most people, we had a good few discussions over whisky regarding the subject.

I think what makes Internet debate slightly different is that whilst some people treat it exactly the same as they would face to face, many, me included tend to drift to the pole end of our opinions on the basis that it and by inference we don't exist.

I for one enjoy being more forthright than Ian could possibly be. It doesn't mean Ian would disown Musket. Just that Musket can speak his mind and that alone is cathartic.

So.. bollocks to all I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:41 AM

Dearie me. Let's see if I have this right. You don't have to be a brainwasher to think that religious "education" is a good thing. You can send your kid to the local faith school (in which, let's face it, you don't really know what's going on) and then offer correctives at home.

Well forgive me for concluding that this is just one unholy mess. Your children are taught that myth is truth, then they come home and you tell them something different. This is kids, remember, not mature adults. What's more, that's just you. My parents and millions like them just let the school get on with it. We all trudged off to Mass every Sunday but not once did we ever discuss religion at home. And I don't think that that was exactly a freakishly-unusual household, do you? You appear to be justifying the whole concept of the indoctrination of immature and highly-impressionable children on the basis that you, Joe Offer, give them context at home. Well, that's a bit of an eyes-shut notion if you don't mind my saying so. And let me ask you this schoolroom question (the other one is "who made God then?"): why, when faith and religion are such complex and grown-up matters (and don't tell me they're not - I don't need to ask you whether you've read a theology book lately!), can't we just leave it out until the kids are grown up? Seventeen or eighteen, let's say, when they are old enough to consider the information and decide for themselves, instead of having their faith and their instruction in it decided for them when they are too young to understand the consequences? What would be the harm?

(Actually, I do know the answer, but I'll wait for you to give your imaginative alternative before saying more...)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 08:52 AM

...And are you really trying to tell me that the Church's ban on contraception (and don't tell me that stuff about "conscience" and "choice" - you have no choice when you country can't or won't provide condoms), in those third-world countries that are predominantly Catholic, has absolutely nothing to do with high birth rates, high abortion rates, a raging epidemic of HIV/Aids among women and all the ensuing poverty that goes with it all? And you say that it's me who's being preposterous?

As for Mother Teresa, my opinion of her is based on my honest search for information about her. If you do the same thing you will find that it's impossible to come to any conclusion about her sheer wickedness that's any different to mine. None so blind...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:04 AM

Actually, if "militant atheism" has become a religion, which I doubt, then why is it that
Christians are so intolerant of it? Why, for example, on this thread, are brickbats being thrown at atheists and a religious war against atheists is being waged?

Why is it that some Christians are so insulted and offended that criticism is mounted at what they believe? Could it be that their so-called "faith" is so flimsy that it can't stand to be examined?

I have known some religious people, the Quakers, for example, who will not chastise those who criticize or examine how they believe but they quietly go on doing their work, most of it socially redeeming and disregard any comment that they don't like. They, in my experience, are not hypocrites because their actions are of social importance, at times of disaster they are there, sending food overseas to the needy.....so many things.

I like the famous Native American chief who said that "churches are where white men go to fight about god".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:27 AM

MtheGM: "But these tendentious aids certainly help in fixing & reinforcing the 'spiritual' message, don't they?"

Maybe a 'religious' message, but not necessarily a 'spiritual' one. I suppose if you think that seeing a crucifix on a wall, gives a church the authority to smack a kid, you could draw an analogy to the Jewish clergy wanting Jesus killed...and Pilate okaying it, because he was in fear of losing his job!!
Gosh, sounds like the chemistry of church/state tyranny???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

It strikes me that many of our outspoken atheist contributors care more about venting their opinions than they do about the effect that it has on our rapidly dying community.

It is possible to discuss one's ideas about the nature of life and the choices we have in dealing with it without calling others names, though this is not as cathartic as some of you need.

The thing about catharsis is that no one wants to walk through the detritus, and as Mudcat dwindles, most of what we've got left is detritus.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:41 AM


Keith. You are not depriving a Christian child a place at school by lying about believing in all that nonsense to get your child a place for two reasons.

1. A state school cannot discriminate based on belief even though they break the law repeatedly by doing so. My taxes pay for equal opportunities.

2. There is no such thing as a Christian child.

The faith schools are oversubcribed.
If you lie and cheat to get a kid in, you are depriving an honest kid.

Also, you will have to explain to your kid why you lied and cheated.
The school will be telling the kid it is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:58 AM

It strikes me that many of our outspoken atheist contributors care more about venting their opinions than they do about the effect that it has on our rapidly dying community.

It demonstrates an even greater degree of Christian panic than even I'd imagined when I see such resort to blackmail... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 11:45 AM

So you are saying that the children in performing schools whose parents don't believe in all that nonsense are not honest kids?

No hope for you then.

My lads both went to the local comp. My eldest, on becoming a father himself recently, paid me the compliment of saying we taught him how to think, not what to think. I doubt a well balanced child would call their parents liars and cheaters. I also doubt that the mainly irreligious teachers would encourage the thought. If society is such that people have to resort to saying they have an imaginary friend (preferably without pissing themselves laughing when saying it) in order to obtain a decent education, it is society and indeed government policy that has the issues, not the parents.

Good grades and education are not a result of reading from the big book of fairy stories but the discipline and sense of attainment that go with any school that does not see itself as child minder for chavs.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stu
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM

"It strikes me that many of our outspoken atheist contributors care more about venting their opinions than they do about the effect that it has on our rapidly dying community."

Wow. You're going to lay the blame for the perceived decline of a forum at the feet of one part of the community?

Think about that sentence you wrote and what it really means.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:00 PM

Yeah. It is all the atheists fault. Bastards.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:14 PM

The "decline" is dramatic, and it's been discussed in another, current thread, where I've made a more extensive comment. As to "blame", I am not blaming you, a careful reader will note that I didn't say you were responsible for it dying, just that you weren't helping things.

If I haven't said it before, I will say now that anything you have to say about music is more interesting than everything you have to say about religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM


So you are saying that the children in performing schools whose parents don't believe in all that nonsense are not honest kids?

No.
Only the ones who lied and cheated to get a place, like your friend did, and you say you would.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:13 PM

Obviously a parent who checks "Catholic" on an enrollment forum , when the family is not, is performing an immoral act.

Obviously a child taught to lie to his schoolmates and teachers about the faith of his family is learning to lie and is making lying part of daily life.

It is difficult to imagine that looking at crosses in the classroom would be more damaging than that. Though I guess that once they graduate they could go into politics or sell used cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 03:39 PM

"Actually, if "militant atheism" has become a religion, which I doubt, then why is it that"

No one on this thread has claimed that. The title above is title of the de Waal article on Salon. If you have a problem with it take it up with him. This is talked over and explained in the first few posts of this thread. You've claimed to have read the thread by now. Haven't you? Please show some respect for us and know what we said instead of arguing against things that we never did say.

>>Christians are so intolerant of it? Why, for example, on this thread, are brickbats being thrown at atheists and a religious war against atheists is being waged?<<

There is no religious war against atheists. I made it clear that I was talking about the aggressive tactics of three people and three only. Mr Dawkins, Mr. Shaw and Musket. It is interesting to note that at different times the first two have disqualified themselves from the definition of atheist. Comb the thread. Try to find a negative comment about atheists that was not about these three or a reply to another speaker about the words of that speaker. I've argued that calling people of faith delusional is childish and mean. But no where have I said that all atheists do it. In fact outside this forum the only place I have seen it defended or done was by Mr. Dawkins.

So please, discontinue this line of attack and please read the thread before the next time you complain about the contents.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM

Well, Steve, I guess I have to admit that I would not send my children to schools that take the literalist view of religion that you describe. One of the things I liked best about the Catholic schools my children attended, was that I was always welcome in the classroom. I was invited to sing and tell stories in all the classrooms every fall, and I occasionally taught a class on something or another. I was very much aware of what was being taught to my children - and it was nothing like what you describe.

And this particular Catholic school wasn't unusual - it was typical for most schools in most dioceses in the United States. No, I can't speak for English or Irish Catholic schools. But the general philosophy of Catholic education in the United States is quite progressive - often more progressive than some public schools that have to water down their curriculum to placate the fundamentalists and other special interest groups.

I knew my kids were getting a good education in Catholic school, that they were being taught to think for themselves. I knew Catholics who preferred to send their children to "Christian" (born-again) schools - mostly because they thought the Catholic schools were too liberal. Many of these "Christian" schools took the literalist approach you decry, doing their best to turn out good, Christian, Tea Party Americans.

My oldest son went to Jesuit High School in Sacramento, where often-wealthy students are required to spend a week with homeless people before graduation. Yes, there were complaints of "socialist brainwashing" from some parents, but the Jesuits kept the requirement.

Steve, I totally reject your view that exposing children to religious tradition is harmful. Much of my Catholic religious tradition is rich and interesting. Even if my children don't practice it, I think they learned a lot from it. Yes, there are extremes that are more like indoctrination than education, but I wasn't foolish enough to send my kids to indoctrination.

But more than that, I find your own view of religion to be rigid, literalist, and doctrinaire - very different from my experience of religion. If that's what you experienced in early life, then I'm sorry that happened to you. But that's not the way that religion is supposed to be. For me, it was fun to grow up Catholic.

I know people who grew up Catholic in India, the Philippines, Korea, several African and Latin American nations, England, Ireland, France, and a host of other nations. For some, it was rigid and oppressive. But for many, it was a rich and enjoyable experience - and they received an excellent education along with it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM

Joe, My Mother taught in a Catholic school in a suburb of Toronto for several years. I think around 1997 to 2005 somewhere in there. The way she described it, it was almost as liberal as the public schools which she taught in for many years but without nearly as many discipline problems. She wasn't able to face the public school children at her age.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 02:36 AM

Keith.

It is not lying or cheating to say you believe in fantasy as there is nothing to lie about.

I wouldn't hesitate to join the thousands of parents who do this each and every year. If Igo to a wwedding, are you saying I am lying when out of decency I bow my head when the prayers start? It means nothing to me yet I do it. Same thing.

You seem to think that there are such things as Christian children. There aren't. Full stop. There are children of Christian or Muslim parents but like most cults, they have ceremonies such as confirmation etc as religions seem to accept the need to affirm faith through adult free will.

In the meantime, the law forbids faith schools to discriminate on grounds of religious membership or opinion of parents or carers. Many children in care are sent to such schools and I can confirm that their local children's social services departments are irreligious by law.

Your rather silly and in some ways nasty comments don't appear to have any credibility.

It's about time it came into these threads. Blasphemy is a victimless crime. Ha bloody ha

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:28 AM

If you participate in a wedding or funeral not of your belief, you are acting out of respect and not stealing a benefit to which you are not entitled by deception.
UK faith schools "may give priority to applicants who are of the faith of the school",[1] but must admit other applicants if they cannot fill all of their places and must ensure that their admission arrangements comply with the School Admissions Code.

That is why atheists lie and cheat to get a faith education for their kids even if it may deprive genuine Christian's of a place at a Christian school.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:47 AM

Religious schools in the U.S. are not supported by tax money. That eliminates some of the UK duplicity described above, but tuition for high school can be as much as $10,000 per year or more at private schools. Despite the cost, these schools are much in demand because of higher standards of education and a generally safer atmosphere. The Catholic schools in my Sacramento diocese welcome students of other faiths or no faith. There is usually a requirement to attend all classes, including religion - but the classes are generally taught in an "inclusive" manner.
But Catholics who belong to and participate in a Catholic parish, are offered a discount. Some people lie to get the discount, but such is life.
I sent my oldest son to a Jesuit high school. I liked the school, but I felt uncomfortable with the fact that so many of the students were so wealthy and materialistic. My son had to ride to school in a carpool, but the parking lot at school was full of fancy cars belonging to students. I talked with a few priests on the faculty about how the materialism bothered me. They agreed, and said that they did their best to fight off the materialism. But with tuition of $10,000 a year, materialism and wealth were dominant forces (gee- now it's $12,010). I sent my younger son to a (LaSalle) Christian Brothers school, and that school was much less materialistic. Tuition there is $11,835, but there are scholarships available - funded by the proceeds of the sale of the Christian Brothers Winery. The Jesuit "Abbey" winery in California wasn't worth much.

Still, the two boys' Catholic high schools have both been the school of preference for the Movers and Shakers of Sacramento, no matter what their religious preference. That has made us po' folks feel like second class citizens.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:57 AM

Redundant apostrophe. You may benefit from a school yourself Keith.

When a child gets into a school nobody is being deprived anything because a child is being taught. Silly.

There is no privilege for religion or non religion in a community and the clause you refer to is presently subject to a challenge in The European courts for discriminating public services on grounds of religion. Gove has already indicated that the faith schools will have to be reassessed after the ruling that even he expects.

Thousands and thousands of parents want the best for their children and if you say you are a Christian to get it, well it can't be lying because saying you believe in something that isn't based on fact or evidence makes you exactly the same as those who do. The difference is that you are deluding one less person, ie yourself.

Again, there are no Christian children. No such thing.

No matter. You keep reminding us that your vote goes to a right wing potty party so your views won't ever interfere with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 05:10 AM

No Christian children, Musket?

Come to my parish church and tell the kids that. They will disagree.

I have to say that I disagree with you, too, since I've worked with Christian children all my life. They live in Christian families and they're brought up in Christian tradition - and they generally seem to be quite at home in that context. They may grow up and choose some other path - but for the time that they're children, they're Christian children.

Now, if you're Anabaptist and believe only in adults belonging to churches, then maybe that's a different story. But many (maybe most) Christians bring their children up as Christians - and rightly so. When the kids become adults, the choice is theirs.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 06:29 AM

They are children being brought up in a family with Christian values Joe and that is a very different thing. Just about every religion has a ceremony of rites of passage. There is a genuine reason for that.

You can say a child is blonde, has blue eyes or is American by birth but you cannot ascribe something suggestive such as religion and make mental leaps.

Children are by any value innocent. There rests the case M'Lud.

If by choice in the future retain their faith then you have another card carrying member and I hope it is a comfort for them rather than fuck their brains, but a child is a child and dressing them as adults doesn't alter it one jot. Your Bible explains it better than I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 06:39 AM

""brendan- please be assured that i was not,and am not now irritated by your pick and choose beliefs.i trust that my believing the bible does not irritate you either.""

Pete, nobody gives a tinker's cuss what you choose to believe.

The irritant is when you try to shove your beliefs down our throats as science.

Keep 'em where they belong, in your own mind and heart, and leave science to people who know what it is, no problem.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 06:52 AM


When a child gets into a school nobody is being deprived anything because a child is being taught. Silly

If the school is over-subscribed, as is often the case with faith schools, the lying family may well force out an honest family.
That is morally wrong.
Lying and cheating to obtain an advantage for your own is also morally wrong.
Making your child participate in the deception by rehearsing lies, is despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:23 AM

"It is not lying or cheating to say you believe in fantasy as there is nothing to lie about. "

So the kids are not being told to lie to their teachers "because there is nothing to lie about"?


Keith I do not think you are getting the implications of what Musket is saying. He is saying that it is NOT morally wrong to lie to or about people of faith because they believe in "fantasy."

That is the type of provisional morality one usually sees in small, tight knit religious cults and sects which I will not name. This is the first time I have ever seen it expressed by someone who would not normally be considered by society to be a religious zealot.

One thing that such an attitude says to me that if you are religious or defending religion is that he has no moral or ethical barriers to lying to you. Anything he says to you could be a lie. I'm not saying that he is necessarily lying to you. I'm saying that he just said he has no problem doing so. It makes such a person a very poor source of information of course and an untrustworthy debating partner.

Please everyone I am not attacking all atheists. I am talking about the expressed attitude of one person.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:44 AM

Don't be bloody stupid Sailor Boy, even by your own standards..

Keith, they are strong words which ring hollow when twisted in the way you have done.

We have schools in The UK. The state run schools are by law subject to equal access, regardless of faith, creed, colour, sexual orientation etc. This is covered by The Human Rights Act. The government has allowed state funded schools to express a faith and this is subject to challenge when they are the local state run school. In the meantime, the only way you can assert your legal right to education of your offspring in those areas where such schools are situated is to pretend to go along with their soon to be outlawed dogma.

It is not lying, cheating or anything else. it is ensuring a decent education for your children. And yes Jack, lying about your faith is not a crime as there is nothing tangible under law about it. Most people who call themselves Christians don't actually believe in all that nonsense as being fact, including many clergy. I recall an ex Bishop of Durham getting into hot water for saying the virgin birth, rising from the dead etc was cobblers to amaze ignorant peasants into accepting it as special.

Most politicians pretend to be religious in order to get the hypocritical vote. Most parents of children in faith schools are no more Christian than I am and happily say so.

Hypocrisy has many flavours and the false outrage of you two does you no favours whatsoever. Yeah, Yeah, I'm a Christian. Yeah, Yeah, I am smug. Yeah, Yeah, my words attacking Musket have no christian values contained in them whatsoever.

Jack, you have not been a trustworthy debating partner since you started pushing your beliefs down the throats of people you knew would react.

The only thing despicable here Keith is those who brainwash their children. Yep, I'm proud of the fact my lads were taught how to think rather than what to think.

Sanctimonious twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 07:54 AM

"Most politicians pretend to be religious in order to get the hypocritical vote. Most parents of children in faith schools are no more Christian than I am and happily say so."

How do we know he is not making this up as he goes? Does he have some sort of wholesale mind reading machine?   He says it is OK to lie. Is he lying? Tough question.

He certainly thinks calling people "silly" and "stupid" is an acceptable part of "debate."

I would think the very definition of stupid would be to tell someone it is OK to lie to people who have the same beliefs as them then expecting those people to trust his words.

It makes me think that his object is not to debate but to abuse. I think he is violating the terms of service at worst, being very disrespectful at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 08:27 AM

Of course, it's the various forms of Christianity that are " in your face"!
Five minutes ago, a couple of Mormons - or whatever - were knocking on my door.
Earlier this week, I was having a quiet coffee in café when a couple of Jehovah Witnesses tried to give me a leaflet.
Come tomorrow morning, I will be awakened to the sound of church bells.
Every week on BBC TV, there is a programme called "Songs of Praise"!
BBC radio has a daily [religious'] "Thoughts for today" message.

Now there is nothing coming from - militant - atheist to balance that lot!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 08:36 AM

That's right Jack. Explore whether you can get opposing views restricted. You have form in this regard.

My points are made from reading results of surveys, interviews and media interest. The Sunday Times commissioned a survey regarding pretending to believe in God to get your kids into performing schools. The results are widely published. The deputy Prime Minister and leader of the opposition have both declared that before admitting they are not Christians they had both gone along with the idea in order to ensure votes. My local MP where I used to live did likewise and after he retired said so.

And this will carry on happening whilst ever religions attempt to influence decent people.

Anybody who goes along with religious nonsense in order to gain equality has committed no crime, no moral problem and no issue. If religions seek to influence more, this is what they are encouraging.

The answer is to keep your faith in your churches and mosques and stop finding ways of ramming it down people's throats and then get upset when nobody wants to play silly games.

I repeat. Blasphemy. A victimless crime. Ha bloody ha.

In supporting parents in this way, I am part of the majority over here by the way. Sleep tight.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:46 AM

""Can you honestly say that nowhere in any of your posts is there a form of words that could be construed as meaning one should not believe in religion? I also feel that your description of Catholic schools in the UK is a distortion of today's reality.""

Yes Brendan, I believe I can honestly say that. My posts have expressed only my lack of belief in, or need for any organised religion or church. I have never, as far as I can recall, invited anyone to join me, let alone told anyone whet he should or should not believe.

My description of my childhood experiences at one specific Catholic grammar, under the auspices of one specific group of Jesuit brothers, could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be mistaken for a description of ""Catholic schools in the UK"", today or at any other time.

I think very carefuly about how I compose posts and it's disconcerting when they are then taken to mean something someone else would like to respond to.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

"I repeat. Blasphemy. A victimless crime. Ha bloody ha. "

Blasphemy is not a crime at all and is not immoral.

Fraud is a crime. Lying on an application is fraud. Lying is immoral. You say it is OK to lie? You are immoral. These ideas are not complicated. But these ideas are the foundation or civilization.

I am not exploring ways to have your political views restricted. I am point out that you are being rude and engaging in personal attacks by calling them stupid and silly.

I'm sorry, it may be your view that I am stupid. Though you would have a very very tough time proving that I am stupid compared to you. But you don't have a right to express that view here. You are being allowed some leeway I would assume. But if your abuse of that leeway is pointed out and as your insulting talk continues to become a habit for you, you will probably find your posts restricted or deleted. Why wait for that to happen. Why don't you just cut down on the childish taunts?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM

""I apologize to you Don that I singled you you out. I was irritable at the time and singling you out was wrong.""

No apology required JtS, I've done it meself a time or six.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 09:52 AM

Don T,

I am pretty sure Brendan was talking to Steve Shaw when he said that. Are you sure he was referring to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM

""If I haven't said it before, I will say now that anything you have to say about music is more interesting than everything you have to say about religion.""

Let's see if i've got this straight Stim.

We post (most of us) aour thoughts and ideas on music above the line, and below the line you want music too?

Doesn't the prefix BS ring any bells then?

Have you not yet managed to figure out that Max deliberately placed this section to take BS away from the music?

Funny how most of those who want to change the way this forum is run post as Guests.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:37 AM

Thanks for the kind words Don. I don't think that Stim was aiming those comments with you Don. Pardon me for saying this but you seem to be looking for a fight with someone not looking to fight you. I've done that a time or six myself. I've found the results to be less than satisfying. Good luck to you though.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 10:47 AM

I don't think that the vast majority of atheists are being deliberately insulting when they say that somebody who holds a religious point of view is delusional. The crux of the atheist critique is, after all, that religion is a form of superstition. If religious people find that offensive and insulting, it is what the atheist honestly thinks, and, so long as atheists aren't personalizing things it's something religious people have to put up with in a democratic society. For the most part religious people do just that. knowing that they are quite capable of dishing it out as well if they need to - I had a Muslim friend years ago who used to mock my defence of Darwin by calling me a monkey. You can put up with things like that if you know there's no bad intent involved.

"saying you believe in something that isn't based on fact or evidence makes you exactly the same as those who do."
That seems to be saying that a truthful religious person is exactly the same as an atheist who is deliberately telling lies, and that, what atheists have in the past regarded as religious delusion ,is in fact a lie perpetrated by billions of people every day, world wide.Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

mayomick said:
"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars ?"

But, surely, Christians are effectively calling Muslims liars because Christianity does not recognise Mohammed as a prophet of God!

Of course, Christians would think twice about stating those beliefs in public!

The truth is that Judaism, Islam and Christianity are - effectively - an insult to each other!

But - most of the time - they tip-toe around that fact!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:15 AM

mayomick, You have made my point perfectly.

Mr Dawkins uses the word delusional the same way that your Muslim friend to ridicule you and disrespect you as a partner in the "debate."

The fact is that you are not a monkey and I am not delusional.

Mr. Dawkins is stretching the definition of "delusion." He justifies that by quoting a quip. This is hardly logical scientific reasoning.
Mr. Dawkins is not being any more respectful and honest than your friend. He is going around the world claiming to represent science and logic and reason. I'm guessing your friend didn't claim all of that when he called you a monkey. Kudos to your friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:27 AM

"From: GUEST,Tunesmith - PM
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

mayomick said:
"Perhaps that is what religious people find offensive - atheists effectively calling them liars ?" "

So, mayomick says something dubious, that makes it so. So pour more dubious comments on that. Is that what is happening?

The only religious person I know who has complained about Dawkins misuse of the word "delusion" is me. I am not offended. I have been making the point that his doing so puts him on an equal footing with those HE is complaining about. Which goes back to the point made in the de Waal article of the original post that some atheists are becoming dogmatic.

You two seem to be making the point that "we atheists are bad, but you religionists are worse. Since that reinforces my point, I don't think that I fundamentally disagree with you. We are just tidying up the details. Thank you sirs.