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John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 03 Nov 13 - 11:30 PM I would characterize it more as a delusion than a conspiracy. Kaiser seems to have time on her hands and is choosing every free venue she can find to put up her nonsense. If you read some of the reviews at Amazon she has pissed off a lot of people with the fictional charges she levels at people. SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: GUEST,Androphiles Date: 03 Nov 13 - 09:39 PM If one listens with any discretion to the various recordings on YouTube purported to be "Joseph Toner" it becomes evident they are different voices. Toner is styled in several places to be a tenor, yet John Charles Thomas and Earl Wrightson were baritones, and Richard Torigi was a tenor. The misinformation has to be catalogued and removed from the web; this is very close to a criminal conspiracy (of one?). |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Aug 13 - 10:02 AM "Doctor" Kaiser, You sign in as IMDb and post a Yahoo search, is that supposed to impress us? You have no leg to stand on as far as your insane claims to do with John Charles Thomas (pretending his oeuvre is really that of Joseph Toner) and all of the other fine musicians and composers you have attempted to harness into your late father/grandfather's reputation. Your claim is a hoax, easily, VERY easily discharged by anyone with common intelligence. Get some help. SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: GUEST,IMDB Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:21 AM http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=IMBD+%2B+Joseph+Toner&b=&fr=ie8 |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: GUEST,ValerieB Kiser MD Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:12 AM federal court it is. you came up on my ebay page. |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 May 13 - 01:54 PM I haven't focused on her training, I've focused on the lunacy she is bringing to the record-keeping of these musical theater performers. I understand what you're saying about the time it takes to get the degreed designation - we had a couple of the family. I also understand the compulsion for some folks who NEED those services to pursue it as a career choice. SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 13 - 01:46 PM If she has not a trained psychiatrist with a degree from a qualified school, and a residency (and APA membership), she is a quack. It takes 12 years- Bachelor's degree 4 years, Medical school about 4 years, residency 4 years, plus certification by APA. |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 May 13 - 12:52 PM She posts herself on Linked In and such. The troubling aspect of this has to do with the amount of informational mayhem one individual (or perhaps three - there are a couple of other accounts that seem to be directly linked to this information enterprise) can do by systematically trying to post their own story on top of the existing information. She is choosing a lot of artists who have faded from the mainstream and users might not know better than to use her fractured version of Broadway and film musical history. The agents or family/estate managers of these artists may not realize that their lives are being usurped or revised. SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 13 - 12:39 PM She has not posted her degree. |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Jack Campin Date: 21 May 13 - 11:21 AM I see Valerie Kaiser is a psychiatrist. And has not got struck off yet. The mind friggin boggles. |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 May 13 - 10:23 AM I don't think the key to this mystery is to know the history of Broadway musical theater. It doesn't involve a visit to the National Archives (except to warn them!) It has piqued my interest in knowing more about some of these people, only partially from a defensive standpoint. SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 21 May 13 - 01:14 AM congratulations on your research, Stilly, the last link was an weird ramble with lots of CAPITALISED WORDS! Keep up the good work, the internet can so easily be used for misinformation. Bring back the book! sandra |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 May 13 - 10:46 PM Whoa. Poke a stick in an insane person's hornet nest and you get a whole lotta nonsense back. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/board/thread/213109398?d=214791294#214791294 I've just ordered the biography from Amazon. Thomas is just at drop in the bucket of Kaiser's claims, but getting a good handle on him should help sort out some of the rest. His is a very interesting story, not one to be subsumed into this bizarre hallucination. SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 May 13 - 04:50 PM Okay, I took Joe's advice and got rid of the variations on the thread name, so anyone doing a search would hit the whole thing and not bits of it. I left it with Kaiser's original name for a few posts, then went to "John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted" and I'll leave it alone. I am tempted to make a list of all of the claims Valerie Kaiser (daughter or granddaughter - sometimes it is unclear) of Mr. Toner has made and run a giant "'Joseph Toner' isn't 'fill-in-the-blank'" thread. In one paragraph here she claimed he was also John Charles Thomas Richard Torigi Earl Wrightson Guy Robertson (harder to find, he did a lot of radio and some film acting) William Kent (also a bit obscure) Over on Amazon she claims he wrote songs claimed by Sheldon Harnick, the only one of the group still alive. |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 May 13 - 09:27 PM So the daughter sees they crossed paths and is claiming the work output of all of these other performers. This may be a treatable illness, but it has been out of control for a couple of years now. She has systematically plastered Internet forums with this stuff. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Don Firth Date: 17 May 13 - 07:23 PM At the bottom of that list (The Highwayman), John Charles Thomas and Joseph Toner are listed as being together in the same musical comedy. Thomas as "Dick Fitzgerald." And Toner is listed as a chorus member. Nice trick! Don Firth |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 May 13 - 06:28 PM She has been at various places where she can post without expense, and she set up accounts on facebook and Google+ - when anyone challenges her she protests that she is being stalked. I get this from her remarks on her pages - and there aren't may outside remarks allowed. There is a book at Amazon, Fiorello, A New Musical in which she and a loony friend launch into an attack on one of the lyricists, claiming that Sheldon Harnick apparently stole credit for work by her father. The ONLY way to get a Joseph Toner hit in Google that wasn't put there by Kaiser is to search on his name in conjunction with another. Internet Broadway Database shows that he had 11 walk-on bit parts in his lifetime. The first 10 were from 1917 to 1939, with his last bit roles as "Seedy Man, Judge Carter, 4th Heckler" in Fiorello! from 1959-1961. When you visit the pages this woman has set up you can see that she is delusional, scooping a whole bunch of mainstream early-to-mid twentieth century performers (most diseased and no one watching their reputations) into this conflated musical theater individual named Joseph Toner. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Don Firth Date: 17 May 13 - 05:59 PM Sorry! I'm repeating information already noted. I went to YouTube to give a listen to John Charles Thomas and found that Valerie Kaiser had been there, too! Don Firth |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Don Firth Date: 17 May 13 - 05:56 PM I'm afraid that Valerie Kaiser has also corrupted YouTube, with listings reading "Joseph Toner singing as John Charles Thomas." I don't really know how to get into it to set the information straight. I remember baritone John Charles Thomas well from hearing him on the radio back in the 1940s and 50s. Fine voice, sang all kinds of material. Quite well-known at the time. (One of the radio commedians, Fred Allen? Bob Hope? referred to him as "the three little boys who sing, John, Charles, and Thomas."). I have NEVER heard of a "Joseph Toner." What kind of scam is this Valerie Kaiser (whoever she is) trying to pull? Don Firth |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 May 13 - 03:44 PM Progress! An employee at IMDb has been working on the John Charles Thomas entry and asked me to look at the page to see what else needed correcting. Hopefully they'll flag that page so Dr. Kaiser can't change it back to the bogus information. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:12 PM There is a response on my IMDb query that directed me to an Amazon book Fiorello, A New Musical in which Kaiser and someone who calls herself "Shewolff77" offers a garbled support of Kaiser's account. There is also a one-off review by someone with the interesting name of "Deamon Ferret" (probably an avatar of the two women posting here) in which they claim Sheldon Harnick (lyricist of Fiorello) didn't write the songs. A Google search on "Sheldon Harnick" "Joseph Toner" comes up with links to various comprehensive works about Broadway plays. It looks like if he did exist he was a walk-on bit player. BlueGoBo page for Fiorello shows he played a "seedy man." Click on Toner's name and it gives a very slight oeuvre on Broadway - two musicals. The last one where he was a walk-on did not involve Thomas. They don't appear to have crossed paths, at least not in what I find so far. A link to the a page in the Google Book The Golden Age of American Musical Theater: 1943-1965 shows that "Joseph Toner" had three bit parts in the premiere of Fiorello starring Tom Bosley. It's hard to get Toner to show up unless you link him with another name. I found a link to turn in changes at IMDB. Not sure I filled it out right, but if they take a moment to follow a couple of links I posted they can see for themselves. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:36 AM I'm still waiting for IMDb to set the account back to rights, and I have the phone number for the author of the biography of Thomas. If I can, I'll get my hands on his book, but if not, I'll call him and pick his brain for who to contact about this absurd online theft of Thomas' identity. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Apr 13 - 11:25 AM This reminds me of the original Star Trek episode in which guest star James Daly plays an unknown Earth man named Flint. It was called Requiem for Methuselah and the premise is that this very ancient being kept reinventing himself and was all of the various great world European composers (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.). One wonders where the thread originator got the idea that various artists were all parts of one man who has no name or imprint in music (that I can find). She claims on her Google+ page that she is being stalked. One can only presume that she blocks all remarks because they come from people protesting this fantasy of hers. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM [snark!] It has provided an opportunity to play detective. |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Continuity Jones Date: 10 Apr 13 - 02:47 PM I love this thread. I may start a secondary false hood stating that Joseph Toner wasin fact Joseph Chaplin, the Russian dictator / silent film star. |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Apr 13 - 01:08 PM There is no Joseph Toner in music except in Kaiser's imagination. She has apparently conflated several artists and applied them or their attributes all to her grandfather. I pursued this simply to restore Thomas to his rightful place at IMDb and get rid of the YouTube nonsense. When you look at the wide range of music he performed and recorded, he really was a musical Renaissance Man. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Apr 13 - 01:03 PM The list of people on the "Walk of Fame" in Hollywood includes John Charles Thomas (6933 Hollywood Blvd.) but no "Joseph Toner." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List-of-stars-on-the-Hollywood_Walk-of-Fame |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM Moderators change the thread title, and in this case, as the evidence became clear it made sense to change the title to take out intentional misinformation. Pretty soon it will probably just be "John Charles Thomas restored to his old self!" You can change the subject line in each post you put up (see the form next to Subject:) but it doesn't stick in the entire thread. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: michaelr Date: 10 Apr 13 - 02:05 AM How do you manage to keep changing the thread title? I want to do that! |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Apr 13 - 01:13 AM If you look at Valerie Kaiser's Google+ page with a link to her YouTube channel you'll see that she is conflating people and events into a slurry of musical theater nonsense. For example, scroll down to the "Oklahoma! Soundtrack 1944" remark she posted March 17, 2012. You can't get past the first few seconds without realizing this woman is barking. I'll stop with the remarks - Google provides ample evidence of her delusions (see her name in the first post here where she posted as a guest). It's a kick in the ass to clear things up if you see someone willfully usurp the good name and reputation of a performer like this. She's claiming all sorts of nonsense. It would be cruel to hammer her any more - but it isn't unreasonable to try to undo some of the damage. She claims she is being stalked - I'm sure that is because people are trying to tell her to stop doing this and she thinks this is stalking. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Apr 13 - 11:22 PM I've written to the publisher of the book John Charles Thomas (2006) to ask if they can send me the email of the author (Michael Maher). He's as close to a modern day scholar on the subject as we're likely to find (though I could dip into the MLA databases). He ought to be able to nip this in the bud. It may seem silly, taking up a cause when most people don't know or remember who he is. But his work was important. His name is mentioned along with John Jacob Niles and Percy Grainger. Prologue to Pagliacci (1945) or the spiritual Swing Low, Sweet Chariot or "Kansas City" from Oklahoma! or "Take Me Back to My Boots and Saddle" or Burns' "Ye Banks and Braes". He wasn't about to be pigeon-holed as one type of singer. He loved opera, but he also loved western songs and traditional and spiritual songs. He doesn't deserve to have some wacko in Brooklyn usurp his name and reputation. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Apr 13 - 04:11 PM I filed a complaint about this over at IMDb and have gotten a response already. I hope they are able to put Mr. Thomas back where he belongs soon! Out, out with the usurper! A search for John Charles Thomas at the New York Times comes up with 1540 hits, since 1851 (this link may only work for NYT subscribers). There isn't a single hit on "Joseph Toner" during all of those years. Not even an obituary. SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Apr 13 - 03:41 PM There is no matchup between the individuals. It looks like Kaiser is delusional and systematically papering over Thomas's history with her wishful thinking that he actually be her grandfather, by conscripting Thomas' information and claiming it was always really Mr. Toner. The new information Kaiser posted at IMDb says: Joseph Toner (1894–1984) Trivia: He was awarded a Star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame for Recording at 6933 Hollywood Boulevard in Hollywood, California. See more trivia » Born: Joseph H Toner August 10, 1894 in Brooklyn, New York, USA Died: May 24, 1984 (age 89) in Nassau Hospital, Lynbrook, Nassau, New York, USA On the next page (follow the trivia link) it has: Death 24 May 1984, Nassau Hospital, Lynbrook, Nassau, New York, USA (Myocardial Infarction.) Birth Name Joseph H Toner Nickname Joe Height 5' 10½" (1.79 m) Spouse Frances Toner (1926 - ?) (her death) 2 children |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas ID as 'Joseph Toner' refuted From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Apr 13 - 03:36 PM I've just pulled up his obituary from the New York Times, published on December 14, 1961. Here is what I just posted at IMDb: John Charles Thomas's birth and death dates have been changed by "Dr. Kaiser." Thomas was born Sept. 6, 1891 and died on Dec. 13, 1960. See Wikipedia (as a starting point) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Charles_Thomas The _New York Times_ ran an obituary, published Dec. 14, 1960 titled "JohnCharles Thomas Dies at 69; Concert, Opera and Radio Star: _________;___. o Popular Baritone Performed In Musicals and Operettas Noted as Showman" (I suspect the underlines are for fancy text that didn't scan properly.) Here it is via the ProQuest citation: JohnCharles thomas dies at 69; concert, opera and radio star. (1960, Dec 14). New York Times (1923-Current File). Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/115104439?accountid=7117 SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Apr 13 - 02:43 PM It should discussed here if it is one place that people might land on while researching John Charles Thomas. If they are led to believe her nonsense because of the IMDb move (I started a discussion there, and am looking for a way to suggest that they have been duped and need to restore Mr. Thomas's original listing) there needs to be an antidote. I'm going to change the thread title to reflect the specious information in her post. SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Apr 13 - 12:11 PM Kaiser claims she is the "primary inheritor" of John Charles Thomas. Among other things, she claims that Rogers and Hammerstein indulged in hateful speech about women, and made a claim for harassment against Google. Many questionable claims regarding musicals such as the "Gypsy Baron," "The Circus Princess" and others, some trying to support her claim, on youtube. This topic should not be continued on mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM Checking all biographical information I could find, the claim by Kaiser is nonsense. |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Apr 13 - 10:07 AM I think that one person is on a mission - to roll all sorts of people into the persona who was perhaps her grandfather. It just doesn't make any sense. I'm hoping someone who studies John Charles Thomas will spot this and shed some light on what looks like a scam. SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: JJ Date: 09 Apr 13 - 08:17 AM John Charles Thomas was Earl Wrightson? Someone notify Lois Hunt, stat! |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Apr 13 - 03:36 PM As a performer John Charles Thomas was an important figure - he spanned a lot of genres, and despite his operatic work, he continued to perform popular and folk music. We've had interesting discussions about him before. It looks, from a cursory bit of research, that a one-woman campaign to usurp Thomas's life and name is underway. I'm astonished that IMDb changed the listing with so little research, just her say-so. SRS |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: Dave Hanson Date: 08 Apr 13 - 07:24 AM Who gives a shit anyway ? Dave H |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: Megan L Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:29 AM Guest Valerie Kaiser you have opened 2 threads on this one subject. While this ocassionally happens when someone comes back to a subject several years later and forgoten about the original thread you did so within 5 minutes. That is really not necessary and could be thought of as rude. |
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Subject: RE: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Apr 13 - 01:31 AM Frankly, it sounds like someone has pulled off a hoax at IMDb. Perhaps it is you, Dr. Kaiser? When I search on "John Charles Thomas" on IMDb it responds with an entry that says Joseph Toner. But when I read the liner notes on my John Charles Thomas cd, it looks like he had such a robust career that this other name would have been common knowledge by now. Or why would it have been necessary? He was a household name in his day. And if you do a YouTube search on John Charles Thomas there are lots of extant films of him sounding and looking like himself, not looking the guy now shown at IMDb. When I look up "Joseph Toner" I only find Valerie B. Kaiser as the source on any articles. I found this facebook page with an account of something that bears no resemblance to the life of John Charles Thomas. I had a drink tonight, but I don't think that is enough to make this account as scrambled as it seems to be. There's too much out there about John Charles Thomas for this new identity to make any sense. I suggest a mudcat moderator working on the DigitalTradition end of things hold on the 'origins' post started by this guest until someone can look into it. I'd hate to see John Charles Thomas disappear because of this allegation that seems goofy to me. The photo of John Charles Thomas-who-she-says-is-really-Toner? The photo of "Joseph Toner." They don't seem to even have the same color of eyes, let alone facial features. Here is a google search on Valerie Kaiser. The more I look into this, the screwier it seems. The ONLY person making all of these changes and putting up a Toner YouTube page with Thomas recordings is Valerie Kaiser. Are there any John Charles Thomas scholars around who can confirm or refute all of this activity on behalf of Thomas? SRS |
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Subject: John Charles Thomas real ID Joseph Toner From: GUEST,Valerie B Kaiser, AKA Valerie B. Kaiser, MD Date: 07 Apr 13 - 11:18 PM The IMBD has strict criterea for changing a person's identity, birth date (which is almost never done) and death date. Yet for conclusive reasons accepted world wide, the music of JOSEPH TONER proves he is the historical JOHN CHARLES THOMAS. He is also known under other names such as Richard Torigi and Earl Wrightson, Guy Robertson, William Kent, and others. He was a film star as well, known to many of those who you know famously, but those films have been destroyed, though successful. You can follow him on YouTube at: |
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