Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Youtube Bullshit again

olddude 14 Apr 13 - 11:52 PM
olddude 15 Apr 13 - 12:05 AM
michaelr 15 Apr 13 - 12:45 AM
Joe Offer 15 Apr 13 - 01:22 AM
bfdk 15 Apr 13 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,leeneia 15 Apr 13 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,olddude 15 Apr 13 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,olddude 15 Apr 13 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,crazy little woman 15 Apr 13 - 10:17 AM
Jeri 15 Apr 13 - 10:52 AM
Gutcher 15 Apr 13 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,olddude 15 Apr 13 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,olddude 15 Apr 13 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,olddude 15 Apr 13 - 01:12 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Apr 13 - 01:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Apr 13 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,olddude 15 Apr 13 - 02:48 PM
dick greenhaus 15 Apr 13 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,olddude 15 Apr 13 - 03:25 PM
Seamus Kennedy 15 Apr 13 - 05:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Apr 13 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,olddude 15 Apr 13 - 07:33 PM
Tootler 16 Apr 13 - 06:28 PM
dick greenhaus 16 Apr 13 - 08:52 PM
GUEST 17 Apr 13 - 04:08 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Youtube Bullshit again
From: olddude
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:52 PM

Tried to tell me that I could not post my version of "red is the rose" as someone has a copyright on CD baby. Well I am fighting it as it is in the public domain. It is a traditional Irish Ballad and if someone wants to claim ownership of traditional Irish ballads I will fight them in court. It is still up as I have a dispute going.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wbo-gJnqL8


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:05 AM

How gracious, they now said I was within perfect rights to record and publish Greensleeves my original arrangement. Now I will go after them for "red is the rose"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:45 AM

Kudos for being willing to expend the energy, olddude. Keep us posted!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 01:22 AM

Hi, Dan -
See this thread (click), paying special attention to the comments from Malcolm Douglas.
Apparently, the known sources are Tommy Makem and Liam Clancy, and Joe Heaney - all from about the middle of the 20th century.

Also take note of this message from Seamus Kennedy:

    Thread #7171   Message #179870
    Posted By: GUEST,Seamus Kennedy
    17-Feb-00 - 01:32 AM
    Thread Name: Origin: Red Is the Rose
    Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
    I recorded Red Is The Rose a few years ago, and I'd heard that Tommy Makem had written it. So I called him to get the facts for attribution, royalties, etc., and he told me that he did not write it, but that he had learned it from his mother Sarah, who had been singing it for many, many years. He didn't know whether Red is the Rose or Loch Lomond came first. Tommy and Liam Clancy did a beautiful version of it. All the best.


Still, I'll betcha the copyright claim that YouTube is talking about, isn't a legitimate one.

No listing for the song in the Traditional Ballad Index, or in Peter Kennedy's Folktrax. Roud has just one entry, collected from Mrs. Mary Heaney in 1969.

-Joe-

But whatever the case, your recording of the song is very good.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: bfdk
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:37 AM

Youtube's notion of what's ok and what's not does seem a bit odd.. Last year I recorded some of the closing ceremony of the Whitby Folk Week and put it up on youtube titled simply that, 'Closing Ceremony'.

Youtube has labelled this snippet of video as having 'matching third party contents'...!!! I do wonder who holds the copyright to the 'title' Closing Ceremony?

Bente


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:34 AM

The Olympic Games committee? I know they have a bang-up Opening Ceremony.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:03 AM

The Irish variant of the song is called "Red Is the Rose" and is sung with the same melody but different (although similarly themed) lyrics.[11] It was popularized by Irish folk musician Tommy Makem. Even though many people mistakenly believe that Makem wrote "Red is the Rose", it is a traditional Irish folk song.[12].

The song first surfaced in 1841


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:08 AM

Joe
upon further research the song first appeared in the early 1800's. The author is unknown


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:17 AM

Bad news about "Red is the Rose," Dan. My Rise Up Singing book says it is copyright Tin Whistle Music, 2 Longmeadow Road, Dover NH 03820.
It sounds to me like the COPS industry (Copyright Other People's Stuff) has been active again. However, I wouldn't expect YouTube to fight that copyright, even if it seems specious.

The book also quotes Tommy Makem (Irish singer) as saying the lyrics are very old and one cannot be sure whether it or "Loch Lomond" (from the late 1880's) are older. He learned the lyrics from his mother, and apparently his mother didn't know who wrote them or how old they were. How anybody can justify copyrighting such a thing is beyond me.

Why don't you modify the lyrics just enough so a search engine can't find them? I'll start you off.

Fair is the rose when the morning bree-eze blows.
Sweet is the lily of the valley.
Clear are the wavelets on Lochmond's distant shore
but my love is fairer than any.

Notice the artful way it acknowledges 'Loch Lomond,' whose tune was obviously pirated for this song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:52 AM

The name/address for Tin Whistle Music was Tommy Makem's. Registering copyright doesn't mean the person wrote it. Sometimes, they register it to prevent someone else doing so.

In any case, I'd use the existence of earlier versions of the song as proof of its public domain status.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: Gutcher
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:45 AM

The song "Red is the Rose" as given above is completely different from the Scottish song of the same name in which Red is pronounced as Rede, to rhyme with seed.
The 1st. verse goes:---

How sweet tha rose blaws, it fades and it faws
Rede is the rose and bonny O
It brings tae ma mind what my dear Johnny was
Sae bloomed sae cut aff was ma Johnny O.

Sorry I cannot communicate the fine tune on this medium.

What the heck I may as well practice my one fingered typing technique and give the rest of the verses:--

[2]Now peace is returned but nae joy brings tae me
   Rede is the rose and bonny O
   For cauld is his cheek and closed is his ee
   And nae mare beats the hert O ma Johnny O.

[3]O why did he lo"e me and leave these fair glens
   Rede is the rose and bonny O
   Where peace and contentment and joy ever reigns
   But nae mare they"ll bloom for ma Johnny O.

[4]Nor to me can their pleasures joy ere impart
   Rede is the rose and bonny O
   For sunk is my spirits and brocken my heart
   But soon in heaven I"ll meet wi ma johnny O.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:41 PM

"Red Is the Rose"

The Irish variant of the song is called "Red Is the Rose" and is sung with the same melody but different (although similarly themed) lyrics.[11] It was popularized by Irish folk musician Tommy Makem. Even though many people mistakenly believe that Makem wrote "Red is the Rose", it is a traditional Irish folk song.[12]

The chorus of "Red Is the Rose" is:

    Red is the rose that in yonder garden grows
    And fair is the lily of the valley
    Clear are the waters that flow from the Boyne
    But my love is fairer than any

This version was also reworked by the Scottish Musician Alastair McDonald, who set it by Loch Lomond, too. This chorus was:

    Red is the rose, that sae bonnie and brightly grows
    And white blooms the lily sae bonny
    And clear is the watter that flows down Lomonds braes
    But my lass is fairer than a' they (Although, some may argue whether he says "fairer" or "famer")

Lyrics


Come over the hill, my bonnie Irish lass
Come over the hill to your darling
You chose a rose love and I have made a vow
Thet she'll be my true love forever

    Chorus
    Red is the Rose by yonder garden grows
    And fair is the lily of the valley
    Clear is the water that flows from the Boyne
    But my love is fairer than any.


T'was down by Killarney's green woods that we strayed
And the moon and the stars they were shining
The moon shone its rays on her locks of golden hair
And she swore she'd be my love forever.


    repeat chorus


It's not for the parting that my sister pains
It's not for the grief of my mother
It is all for the loss of my bonnie Irish lass
That my heart is breaking forever.

    repeat chorus


Notes

    ^ Vocal Melodies of Scotland
    ^ James J. Fuld, The Book of World-Famous Music: Classical, Popular and Folk, p. 336.
    ^ Poems of Andrew Lang: THE BONNIE BANKS O' LOCH LOMOND
    ^ Lang & Philipp 2000, p. 235.
    ^ Am Baile - The Songs and Hymns of the Scottish Highlands. Part II Song 5
    ^ a b RPO - Andrew Lang : The Bonnie Banks o' Loch Lomond
    ^ Fraser, Amy Stewart (1977). In Memory Long. Routledge. p. 54. ISBN 978-0-7100-8586-3. Retrieved 10 October 2008.
    ^ Kennedy, Michael (1996). A Catalogue of the Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams. Oxford University Press. p. 85. ISBN 0-19-816584-6.
    ^ [1]
    ^ Moira Kerr, CD-Album 'Loch Lomond'
    ^ http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/01/jet/lyrics/redrose.html
    ^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUXB_VNUAPk

References

    Lang, Andrew; Philipp, Peter-Eric (2000). Complete Poems of Andrew Lang: The Essential Library 2. Essential Library (xLibris). p. 235. ISBN 978-0-7388-2837-4.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:42 PM

try 1841


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 01:12 PM

somewhere along the line we have to stop boss hog corporations from trying to take control of traditional music. Even if that means paying an attorney for a letter. They backed down quick with greensleeves, I guess that was a fight they didn't want to take on., I would suggest anytime you get one of these click the dispute and go at it. We are losing our music


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 01:58 PM

olddude- would you supply the references to the song, 1841 and 1800?

I am asking because I vaguely remember my grandmother singing a song like this (and it wasn't Loch Lomond). The tune, of course, is "as old as the hills."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:15 PM

Makem is free to copyright his version and singing of the song; older versions are not covered by his copyright.
There are countless examples of artists and their publishers/recording companies protecting their way of doing an old song, but it doesn't block someone else from doing the song "their way" and recording it.

Of course, there are dunderheads at places like youtube who "err on the safe side" because they don't know enough to make the distinction. I shouldn't say dunderhood, because it takes a savvy crew to avoid mistakes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:48 PM

Red Is the Rose is a traditional Irish Folk song. It is an Irish variant of the Scottish song, 'The Bonnie Banks o' Loch Lomond', which was first published in 1841. The song uses the same melody as the Scottish version, but the altered lyrics.

Tommy Makem popularized the song in the modern era, and it has since been recorded by many Irish artists


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:20 PM

IMO, the definitive version was sung by Joe Heany, and I believe that his renditiuon predated Makem by several years.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:25 PM

Yes it did Dick and I agree with you. By the way, I was told the song was owned by CD baby ... yea right, see ya in court cause I won't back down


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:44 PM

The Tin Whistle copyright is Tommy Makem's ARRANGEMENT of the song, and not his original work. So feel free to copyright your arrangement, Dan, unless you're doing it exactly the same way, note-for-note that Tommy did it.

And a lot of songs for which Harry Fox hold copyright are the same thing - simply the arrangements.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:38 PM

cdbaby represents a large number of independents. There may be another copyright arrangement by a performer other than Makem out there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:33 PM

Well apparently I was right as they decided to find in favor of my assertion it is traditional ... so now they will leave it alone. My next mission is to give away free copies even though it is not done right just to make a statement


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:28 PM

I also had matched third party notice on Greensleeves. I challenged that and my challenge was accepted. I've recently had a matched third party notice on another traditional Irish song "The Dawning of the Day".

It seems quite common to get these notices on traditional songs. It's time Google set up a filter to weed out the common obviously "silly" copyright claims such as for Greensleeves which is well known to be old and clearly in the public domain.

As a matter of principle, I always challenge copyright claims on public domain songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:52 PM

There's a lot of bullshit around, but I don't believe YouTube is the culpable bull----blame the copyright laws.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Youtube Bullshit again
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:08 AM

Many songs pass through an 'irish domain'

surprised it didnt vary to

Green is the shamrock on yon mossy bank doth grow
red is the sunset that flickers
We gently laid down and gazed upon the stars
twas there I learned she wore etc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 20 October 9:35 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.