BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

typo correction.....'last' in the lsat sentence....

Guilty as charged....forty days in the electric chair!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 10:46 AM

.....yeah, and I can't even enter a plea 'not guilty' by reason of insanity.....
..but there are a few who certainly have shown contempt of the court of public opinion!......
...and there are those who have made willful confessions of being ignorant of the law!....
..and there are those who are still trying to be represented by a pubic defender!...but he's been a little late, in showing up!....oh wait, that's public defender?????...well, it doesn't matter, neither one looks like they're going to make it!

Good point, Little Hawk......ya' ever wonder how long THAT will lsat, the way things are goin'?

Regards, as Usual!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 01:36 AM

Non-agreement with any of the persons on this thread is not a crime or a misdemeanour. ;-)

And that goes for all the other threads around here too.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 12:45 AM

concerened: "Hey Guys check out the other religion threads and see jerk the sailors latest offerings.
Has he lost it or what?..as if there was any doubt!!!"


Oh, NOW you expect 'faith'!!!???!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 08:14 AM

Hey Guys check out the other religion threads and see jerk the sailors latest offerings.

Has he lost it or what?..as if there was any doubt!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 03:19 AM

Well said Steve!! About time some one else called the smug chowderhead and self opiniated nautical fraud to account.

Hows it feel Seaman Stayns?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 07:40 PM

Never feels should have been never fails. Too much Kernow sunshine (not).

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM

Are you talking to me?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

Do you mean that his atheism has left you speechless???
In a good way or bad way??...or the apple way??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM

I am so sorry Mr. Shaw. But I have no idea what you are talking about. What do you say that you and I put an end to this conversation with each other?


I respectfully cede the last word to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:43 PM

Dainty feelings???...well of course you have 'dainty feelings'..just think, if you were hip to 'God', you'd be used to watching mankind fuck up...even say you don't exist....but you'd still shine the sun on them, and let it rain...and still love them!....maybe even inspire one of them-those musician-kind to compose a beautiful piece, just to let the 'hard of hearing' types get a clue.
.....but then, there's those ol' harmonica players, who always gotta keep slamming the spit out of their instruments!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 11:13 AM

That wasn't my dainty feelings, Wacko, wot I have not got. It was good advice to a fellow who castigates others for their negativity and rudeness yet who never feels to partake in such traits himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:32 AM

Gosh!! you are really losing it Cap'n Bilge..resorting to asshole creeping and brown nosing now are we?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:00 AM

Oh! Sorry Steve. I thought you were bantering. I should have accounted for your dainty feelings. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:56 AM

Apple??? What apple??....part of the 'religion' thing??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

Rogue apostrophes? Probably Eve's fault too.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:47 AM

You don't half rattle on about other' people's rudeness, Jacko. Ever considered refraining from it yourself for a minute so as to, er, occupy the moral high ground yourself? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 08:29 AM

It is apparent from this thread that self-infantilization (autoinfantilization?) is an easy task for some non-believers. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 07:33 AM

Come off it, Blandiver. You know full well that all that horror you describe would never have happened had some woman not bitten into someone else's apple... ;-)

To put it another way, isn't religion the ultimate infantilisation of the human species?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 06:36 AM

GUEST below woz me.

Check this out for perfect joy.

Michael Hurley, Slurf Song 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 06:32 AM

I also wrote our werewolf song - Winter Werewolf (aka Fevered Prayer) for a CD project on Werewolf Lore in Sweden. That's still on-line c/o The Wire - listen to it here:

http://thewire.co.uk/audio/tracks/stream-tracks-from-werewolf-songs_music-inspired-by-swedish-folklore

What's that got to with anything? Well...

Beyond the realm of human perception and culture, the universe is an incomprehensible hellish wasteland, and what life there is exists solely to devour its prey in horrible ways. I had to switch of BBC4's Rock Pool documentary the other night as the alien-tooth maw of a Dog Whelk drilled through the Mussel shell to suck out the living creature within - and the scene of the cold-eyed Cuttle Fish demolishing the Crab was as disturbingly horrific as anything I've seen in Horror or Sci-Fi. Such grim & agonising realities largely confirm my life-long Gnostic leanings, though not being of a supernatural cast of mind I don't harbour ideas about a Demiurge Creator, but recognise that, as far as we Humans are concerned, the Natural World is very much Other / Evil.

Nature infects us, freezes us, starves us, terrifies us, violates our cultural / cognitive sanctity, and will, at last, destroy us utterly & horribly by means of stroke, cancer, heart failure or any number of ingeniously rancid means of terminating our all-too brief miserable tenures that would put even the most sadistic murderer to shame. Hardly the wonder we came up with the idea of Religion & God as a mythic salve to our various woes & wonderings, personifying our barely understood universe in terms of light & dark, benevolence & malevolence - the good, the bad, and the very ugly indeed. But it was all made-up by we Humans trying to make sense of the senseless as soon as we found ourselves different from the rest of it. Some say 50,000 years; others say there's evidence of Human funeral rights going back 180,000; still a mere blink in the cosmic scheme; even the biological one which rages over Planet Earth in a Godless determination to survive at any price; to kill or else be killed.


Enchanted by the moon, the Werewolf loses their humanity and goes out on the hellish spree regardless of the cost. There are, of course, no Werewolves. They are metaphors for the human condition in which a tiny minority of people are inclined to do that sort of thing anyway, often exceptionally, living only to repent at having acted in natural haste in their leisurely incarceration. Meanwhile, in nature, all is red in tooth and claw with murder and rape being pretty much the order of the day. Again, hardly the wonder the Gnostics perceived that as hell; hell as the natural here & now presided over by the Devil inspired by the God of the Old Testament into which darkness sparks Logos, or The Word, or Jesus Christ, a single point of light in an unremitting realm of utter & total darkness. Metaphorically speaking, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 06:10 AM

"Oh. Salty Jack says atheism is an organisation because Dawkins says so.

Jack is religious therefore supports suicide bombing, genital mutilation and allowing priests to abuse children.

Zzzzzzzz "


Sorry to bore you old bean. You can stop talking to me whenever you want you know. And you have to realize that I am generally talking about you rather than to you. And you have to realize that is because you keep saying that you are taking the piss and that you think it is OK to lie about this topic.

But I really didn't realize you had set me a goal of amusing you. I also didn't realize that we were using the Mather Blather Dictionary of Unique to Blather Idiosyncratic Definitions.

You post above kind of ties this thread into a neat bow. Doesn't it? Also the one about needing to be right. I guess when you are only "taking the piss" and you "don't have to think before you post" and you can change the definitions of key terms at will, you can always be right. In you own mind you are right anyway. I guess luckily for you at least have Ian to agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:00 AM

Very interesting concept song blandiver.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:41 AM

Do you write songs? If so, I'll bet they are a joy to sing.

Very rarely as I'm a committed Traddy, though I came up with this a while back in tribute to Edward Gorey:

Seven Years Old

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:32 AM

Oh. Salty Jack says atheism is an organisation because Dawkins says so.

Jack is religious therefore supports suicide bombing, genital mutilation and allowing priests to abuse children.

Zzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:11 PM

My opinion of religion is that it is a fine and noble thing when the dark side of human nature doesn't exploit and tarnish it.

You appear to have missed the point (why, there's a first!). Religion is the dark side of human nature, exploiting and perverting our natural curiosity for the mysterious.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 04:14 PM

Blandiver I do enjoy and admire the poetic phrasing in your posts. Do you write songs? If so, I'll bet they are a joy to sing.


My opinion of religion is that it is a fine and noble thing when the dark side of human nature doesn't exploit and tarnish it.

I feel the same way about nude pictures of women, alcohol, music, politics.. just about everything in this world actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 04:13 PM

Good thing you enjoy fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 04:06 PM

Atheism's about getting back to the fundamentals of life before Religion came along and fecked it up for everyone. The myth was good crack, but it quickly soured when people started believing in it.

(I know I'm on Jack the Sailor's rude list, but I'm saying this nicely with a big warm avuncular smile as I sit on my rocking chair in front of a crackling log fire randomly frailing the melody of Michael Hurley's Slurf Song on my wife's old 5-string as the corn pops in the pan. Does it get any nicer? A lot nicer without religion getting in the way...)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 03:00 PM

Yes. Yes. Yes. Mr. Ian Mathers AKA. Musket. Very nice tap dancing around definitions in an attempt to irritate me and bait me.


Atheism is a cause here http://www.richarddawkins.net/.

If you don't like that, take it up with Richard Dawkins.
They even have a "get involved" section. Here's an idea. Why don't you stop wasting your time here and go "get involved?"

And yes, I make typos every not and then and yes, I am inclined to use the spell checker on my P.C. rather than trying to please you.

Go find someone else to pester.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

I can't even say something nice about Sheffield Wednesday without him having a go. Jaysus, doesn't he realise how bloody hard that is for me???

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Musket
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:25 PM

This from Sailor Jack;

"proselytize

pros·e·ly·tize
verb \ˈprä-s(ə-)lə-ˌtīz\
intransitive verb
1
: to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2
: to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause"

Which definition are you using when you speak of atheism? If you use 1. there is no faith. if you use 2. there is no party, institution or cause.

Atheism means not believing. So.. I must be an atheist. My dog must be, the brick wall that is like conversing with you etc etc.

Do you seriously see atheism as a cult? Is it a movement in your eyes? Do you see lack of faith as a threat to faith?

For Clapton's sake, get out of your hang up box and do some thinking, you have proved you can on non religion threads.



Ok.. That's pushing it a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM

who has. Sheesh. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 01:55 PM

Well I cherish it. I enjoy a cordial relationship with almost everyone on this forum who have ever engaged me in discussion. It's true. I have a mailbox full of lovely exchanges to prove it, often with people who have vehemently disagreed with me in public. If you really want someone other than a saint to be nice, Jack, you have to stop being abrasive every time they pop up, stop misrepresenting what they say, get those bees out of your bonnet and try to engage properly with what they're saying. And stop sounding so bitter. You fall down on every one of those points time and time again. Otherwise it's best to keep quiet. If you don't enjoy a cordial relationship with me, you have some questions to ask yourself. I'm all right, Jack. But this is about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 11:03 AM

GfS

You said.

"So, what is it???....All one has to do on one of these 'atheist' threads, is say something 'nice', and it sinks like a stone??

I started a thread meant to me nice Sunday and I thought it must have been totally invisible until I saw that someone commented about how it sank so fast. And that person was complaining about me not being nice on another thread. I don't think that "nice" is a cherished commodity on the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:49 AM

So, what is it???....All one has to do on one of these 'atheist' threads, is say something 'nice', and it sinks like a stone??

If we piss, bitch, and moan with fear and loathing, that keeps the thread going???

How about constructive things to get from point 'A' to point 'B'????

But, then on the atheist's threads, what is constructive??...and what is a point 'A' or point 'B'?????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 06:17 PM

olddude, I have usually found your posts uplifting, and certainly not as sarcastic, nor satirical as mine(which some people just don't get). You've been refreshing and supportive of good stuff!
Be easy on yourself..you come across really cool!

Warmest Regards!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM

and me, no one can and should use me as an example. I am flawed, I know that and that is why I take nightly inventory

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:10 PM

and I am sorry Steve if you thought I was talking about you or any of the regular posters. The mud elves took off some visiting trolls that want to come in toss their poo and then leave. Like I said I don't own the site or police it.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:00 PM

why would you think I was talking about you Steve, and yes I do write music, quite a lot of it with a strong following but that is besides the point. There are a lot of posters on mudcat that come to insult and move on as guests. One only has to look at any thread. If you play good for you .. that is great .. atheist have nothing to do with my comment. visiting trolls does unless you count yourself among them. I didn't

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:57 PM

Musket sans cookie: "That takes some thinking through. Be careful about my instinct."

That's true.....and I wouldn't mess with your instincts....that is a job for where you got them from!
Actually, when parts of the brain light up, as per aforementioned, your instincts get so mega-enhanced, that all sorts of stuff lights up! It's like you hear and see with different eyes and ears...music, and musical abilities take a quantum leap, as well....and my dear pubic brother, I wouldn't shit you about that!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:52 PM

dunno Jack
by the way there are atheists on mudcat that follow it even though they don't believe. They have that foundation. Hate to name names
but Will Fly is a brother to me and the kindest person one will meet. along with many others. Free will is a very important thing. None of my friend wish to change me or I them

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:47 PM

Is Jerry on Face book?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:46 PM

Well, old dude, I'm a very good harmonica player who writes for a harmonica magazine, who's made a CD of traditional music that got great reviews and who plays in all the Irish sessions around here. I have no desire to rattle on about this, but on this occasion I think it's best you shut your big gob about other people's musical abilities until you are in possession of the facts. What do you do, by the way? Whatever it is, I wouldn't dream of knocking it until I knew. Find some other bloody way of knocking atheists, will you, preferably using your brain this time, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:44 PM

and Jerry never talked it, he walked it

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:42 PM

every person I know of faith knows this passage. If Dawkins is not saying the same thing then he too has missed the whole idea of this life. It ain't about preacher, popes, religion or leaders. It is about Christ and that is my path, you must find your own and not try to change others who follow this path

1 Corinthians 13

New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:14 PM

As a person of faith, every night I sit down and do an inventory and ask myself what have I done right today, who needed help and I didn't respond, who did I hurt.

that is me, however regardless of what you do or don't believe why are you not doing the same thing if you truly believe in your non belief, if only to be a better person. Does that include pissing on everyone else? If so you may want to think about it and see were you are in life, that is if you truly want to be a better human being

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:03 PM

Technically you are correct about evangelize.

From now on I'll use this word. Definition 2

proselytize

pros·e·ly·tize
verb \ˈprä-s(ə-)lə-ˌtīz\
intransitive verb
1
: to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2
: to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:01 PM

Well people can insult me anytime, I don't get upset anymore cause I don't care but insulting Chongo will get ya in deep around here. We love the little invisible chimp

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:58 PM

I'll say it again too. Evangelising atheists is an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:55 PM

did ya ever wonder what the music credentials are from some people around here on mudcat. Either is is non existent or was in the past and now the only joy is to take every thread and turn it into a pissing match, or maybe they hate music. Seems to occur on other music sites also but they won't tolerate it- dunno puzzles me. go figure. We get all kinds of people stirring up the shit pot on every single thread. I guess they only like rap music maybe but most rap musicians accept other forms of art. Makes me wonder. We seem to be a shit magnet for trolls but hey I don't own this site so it ain't up to me to police it

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM

"Question organised superstition and their adherents will end up almost convincing you that you started the argument and have a hang up. "

Hitchens did have a hang-up, several in fact. Some of which he admitted to. He started lots of arguments. It is small wonder that others pointed that out. It is a big puzzle that no one convinced him of these obvious facts. I don't know what, if anything that says about you.

I'll say it again I really have no problem with the New Atheists evangelizing. It is pretending that they are not that is disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:47 PM

That takes some thinking through. Be careful about my instinct.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:37 PM

Well, that seems pretty fair.
The thing I'm trying to point out to you, is that a spiritual 'experience/awakening' is not about superstitions and bogus rituals of nothingness....which is what a lot of churches cling too, to try to make their point...so not only do I understand your position...matter of fact, in those regards, I agree with you!..because what you are railing against, is exactly what anyone spiritually minded would be pissed at, too!!
For what it's worth, there is two ways that the Bible refers to 'believers' and 'religions'...one, is referred to as a 'Virgin Bride'..the other is referred to as 'The Great Whore'!.....see, your instincts are correct....and what does a 'whore do'??..whatever it takes, for money and position/power.
Methinks, that way in there, your instincts just may be intact...but your resentments misplaced!

Now just make connection, and you might turn out to be a major ass kicker!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM

Tell you what. Hitchens got one thing right.

Question organised superstition and their adherents will end up almost convincing you that you started the argument and have a hang up.

He also reckoned it is more prevalent in Dumbfuckistan than here.

No shit.......

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:01 PM

Aw..that piece from Lisa Kelly, formerly from Celtic Woman, is just one great piece that shows linkage of exactly what I've been talking about! ....and not only that, it is FAR from painful!

Musket: "I am happy to be called a cultural Christian for that matter."

Being as you are " happy to be called a cultural Christian"...I guess that's NOT the painful part....
....the painful part is what the churches have done to it!...and like I've said before, I definitely draw a distinction between something spiritual and something 'religious'. One is real...and the other has been bastardized by politics..in your case, most likely that old Italian government that had to co-opt 'something' to stay in business!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:47 PM

Yer feelin' oppressed by people pushin' their faith at you, Musket? Which people? Anyone been tryin' to convert you lately?

- Chongo

p.s. I don't fling poop. But if I was gonna do so, I'd first fling it directly at those who cast the aspersion in the first place, see? It would serve 'em right.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:14 PM

Careful GfS, don't kill him. Just bust enough blood vessels to calm him down. I think that Celtic women might be a bit too much. I might have gone with Alison Kraus. But at least you didn't hit him with the big guns, Dionne or Streisand.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:08 PM

Yo! monkey man. (I think that is how to address people when you are apprehensive about them flinging shit through the bars?)

I have made constant references to hard wired cultural and traditional use of religious terms. I am happy to be called a cultural Christian for that matter.

But you know, when you give it back with knobs on to those who push their faith at others and insist that lack of faith is an assertion therefore your God is an old bloke in Oxfordshire...

Bloody hell. Got me reasoning with monkeys now. Darwin has a lot to answer for....

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:59 PM

Musket: "What's your fascination with ants anyway?"

YOU'RE the one who brought them up....in a parallel, and consistent way found in Proverbs, in the 'Old Testament'....don't blame me, just because I merely pointed that out to you!..YOU'RE the one preaching...and using the Bible to help you out.....then turn around and knock your sources!!
I found it both ironic and hilarious!.....Ya' think that stuff just lurks around inside us, just waiting to manifest itself??...Cuz, buddy, ol' pal, you're on your way!!

I've always maintained that 'creativity'(funny that should come up), and music, and spiritual experiences are located in the same region of the brain....(actually, whether or not 'I've always maintained it' has no bearing on it...it just happens to be true).....and that when these work in unison with each other, that God given talent just exudes out of every pore of one's being......that being said, here is a performance, of one such Lady, and friend(but not quite as close as the other one accompanying her), who is singing about(note the lyrics), with a totality(note the tears near the end), while emoting, FLAWLESSLY a great song...that is in keeping with her spiritual beliefs...watch what happens when these are united!
(also note her singing at one part accompanied only by the drummers)
..a consummately great performance!!!
Enjoy......and get a clue!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:57 PM

Yer a product of 2000 years of Western cultural conditioning, Musket, just like the rest of us. That is why you yell "Jesus F-ing Christ!" when you hit yer thumb with a hammer and "Oh, God!" at other stressful moments, even though yer not a Christian. The Christian tradition has worked its way deep into yer psyche whether you like it or not, by way of language, literature, common symbols, and basic thought constructs, and there ain't a lot you can do about it except show up on all these threads and make fun of Christians for believin' in something you don't. Sort of like wanking, right? It's easy, you can do it every day when things are getting a bit slow, and you derive pleasure from it. They say that the keenest pleasure of all is to imagine yer smarter than most of the other people in yer vicinity.... (an almost universal assumption amongst humans...and Chimps too)

- Chongo

p.s. We all got similar habits. I pick on Bobertz all the time just because it's fun to do so. I like how he responds when he is poked. He does it right back to me. It's sorta what you could call a symbiotic relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:54 PM

There are some people Jack that the meaning for friendship and respect is foreign thinking. I tend to not make friends easy but when I do I tend to hold them as a treasure and do not drive them away with inflammatory statements on a daily basis to their core family values. However, that is not the case for some. When a relationship with God is a personal choice and precious to some, there are others that won't stop the insult unless you prescribe to their Gospel of Dawkins. I tend to argue with those I love and respect only ... hence I quit arguing with others that just for some reason want a fight for those I walk away as Jerry and others have done

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:52 PM

Keep your head elevated and take an aspirin.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM

I don't have access to the little baby Jesus though.

No matter, some old bloke in Carolina is praying for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM

I don't know how you have done it GfS. But it appears as though you have given him a stroke. At least he has access to health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 11:04 AM

My dear Goofus..

When I hit my finger with a hammer I shout "Jesus F*cking Christ!!"

When I am on the vinegar stroke, I have been known to mutter "Oh Jesus, I..I..I'm ccoo....mmm" you get the picture.

I call days of the week Wednesday, Thursday etc, but Norse Gods are about as relevant to me as Sailor Boy's imaginary friend.

What's your fascination with ants anyway? Taking one for the team and each having a set role for the good of the community is something they and rational humans can do without thanking a deity for afterwards. I would use cats as a reference but they are not a good example of community altruism. I would have liked to though on the basis someone told me there are no cats in the bible.

To which I might add kangaroos, dodos, polar bears, Gloucester Old Spot or labradoodles.

The only subliminal thing I am trying to get out is that I might have to agree with those who reckon I have gone all middle class in recent years. Can I get it out in the open Goofus? You see, years ago, I always served lamb with mint. Nowadays I tend to use rosemary and garlic. Do you think its true? Have I really been affected by buying an Aga? I don't think its gone as far as putting on Sunday best, muttering chants and patronising the poor though.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:38 AM

Musket: "If they have to read your ramblings too often, numb and brainless would."

Oh, you think???

I was pointing out how 'so-called atheist' NWO shills keep alluding to Christ, or Jesus, every time 'God' is mentioned, and then they say they don't believe in 'God'...and then you rebutted with ....wait I'll get it(this is just too 'rare')....OK, got it...
"I don't see ants going to church yet their society functions on similar lines."
Which, once again, an 'avowed atheist' references the Bible...

(notice the gender, BTW)
Now is there something subliminal you are trying to get out????
Maybe we all know...somewhere 'what's really going on, down under you' - CSN
Something to 'consider' being as it appears you ain't listening to your WHOLE brain!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 10:22 AM

I'll have a pint of what he's on....

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:42 AM

"full reflexive name calling mode"

full reflexive

full

I see you have consistently remained in lazy word skimming mode.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:16 AM

I don't. My iMac does.

Spending a day in the study, hence the procrastination on Mudcat rather than interfering with the real world.

Gone into name calling mode? I never went out of it you dozy rigging splitting buccaneer.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:59 AM

Ah! The cookie man has finally eschewed all attempts at reason and gone into full reflexive name calling mode. Keep it up. You make more sense this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:52 AM

If they have to read your ramblings too often, numb and brainless would be putting it mildly...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:51 AM

Tangents??????

You know, 'atheism' as part of the NWO, has got to be such a 'liberating' thing, that they even get wet diapers, over what goes on within a person's own mind and soul!! Does that mean everyone HAS to be 'equally' numb and brainless????

'Consider the ants...'?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:05 AM

On balance I'd rather try and understand Goofus and debate his tangents than see where Sailor Jack is coming from.

Stealing, murdering, coveting your neighbour' arse or whatever are not the exclusive domain of man made constructs such as the God delusion. They are conscious examples of the seemingly built in altruism of sentient beings.

I don't see ants going to church yet their society functions on similar lines.

Sin is a term that can be used by everyone. You don't need hangups about fantasy to either know what is right nor indeed to transgress basic values.

Sailor boy's comment that atheist children aren't perfect is not only missing the point but possibly missing it on purpose. Maybe his way of conceding a point.

Of course, all children are atheist. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:09 AM

An interesting observation..(that some of you won't like)...
The thread is about, "Non-belief in a god.."
...and then some of you 'carry on'..and even post links for other people to speak on your behalf.....
one guy here, keeps going on about 'baby jaysus'...
i brought in the element of a 'spiritual experience'...
...and then the chorus starts 'bad mouthing Christians, all over again...

Judging from the posts from the 'so-called' atheists.....YOU ARE THE ONES equating Jesus with being God!!!!..check it out!
Maybe you believe more than you think you don't!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:50 PM

The Southern Baptist convention are bullies and mysogyists

They've driven a almost all traces of moderation from their midst.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:09 PM

Christian bulllies

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4dSiHqpULk

What do you think about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:42 PM

http://us.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0oG7p4HrnVRIHgADepXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGNzcmNwdmlkA2Q2aTY5a29HN3Z3M0Jvb2dTa3VRREE3YVJ4YmVSbEYxcmZ3QUNVMkcEZnIDYWx0YXZpc3RhBGZyMgNzZy1nYWMEaXQDZ3AEbl9ncHMDMTAEb3JpZ2luA3NycARwb3MDMgRwcXN0cgNwYXQgY29uZGVsbARxdWVyeQNwYXQgY29uZGVsbARzYWMDMQRzYW8DMQRzZWMDcmVsLXNhBHNsawN0ZXh0BHZ0ZXN0aWQDVklQMTMx?p=pat%20condell%20youtube&fr2=sg-gac&fr=altavista&pqstr=pat%20condell

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:37 PM

What do you think about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:29 PM

You lot sin against me with your half baked, semi intellectual, psuedo crap;you are good at giving me a pain were I should get pleasure!!

Promise me you all will lighten up.It is a nice world out here populated by nice people......with the usual exception of smug Maritime frauds,

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:24 PM

Everybody does things that are forbidden in the commandments of Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition.

You literal mined eejet!

That is not judgement. That is a fact. The difference is that you don't care that you do things that are forbidden in the commandments of Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition.

and people who care about their religion TRY not to do things that are forbidden in the commandments of Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition.

That is all I am saying. Don't think for a millisecond that I care enough about what your chosen beliefs to call you a sinner.

And parents don't have to tell kids that they are sinners. Any kid that knows what the rules are knows what the rules are. Are you saying, Musket in your infinite nonsense that atheist children never lie or steal and that they always honor their parents? My experience tells me otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:12 PM

We are not all sinners. Full stop.

Here in the civilised world you have to be judged by a court not subjectively pre judged by delusion merchants.

Sorry but I am astounded by someone who keeps trying to take the moral high ground come out with a million get out clauses for only abiding by their religion when it suits them.

And then tries decrying decent people for taking religion as seriously as you obviously do. So I repeat. Saying you believe in all that nonsense in order to get a decent education takes a poor second to lying to your kids about them being sinners.

No. They aren't. Period. Mind you, plenty have been sinned against by those put on a moral pedestal by gullible shallow people.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:01 PM

BTW that was 200!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:01 PM

We are all sinners. All of those who believe in sin, at least.

There would be a lot more disagreements if you would read more carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:51 PM

But I'm not a sinner so stop saying we all are.

That's one of the funny things about the hypocrisy of superstition. You can claim to follow a faith and believe all that nonsense but when you realise some of it is utter bollocks you can ignore it and claim to be a sinner. Pathetic.

Telling innocent children they are sinners eh? No they aren't and no amount of child abuse can convince me otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 02:49 PM

>>And why think for yourself when the little baby jesus can do it for you? Breaking promises made to your God are irrelevant but you still believe in him?<<

We are all sinners. All of those who believe in sin, at leats. Do you think that anyone keeps all the Commandments all the time. You would certainly have a lot less to complain about if you had any idea what you are talking about?

At least you seem to be admitting that you aren't thinking for yourself. That is an encouraging step.

I am not pointing out that you endorse lying to morally chastise you or any such thing. I am just saying that it makes debating with you nothing more than idle banter.

Tripe is in the eyes of the beholder. Lies are just lies.

"Oh and by the way, its humour not humor."

Yes, of course it is. But where you are concerned it is neither :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans the good professor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 02:24 PM

Woof! Woof!

Grrrrr...

Woof!

Hi Goofus! Read any good comics lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 02:04 PM

Who are you blathering to??..or are you just blathering??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:44 PM

And why think for yourself when the little baby jesus can do it for you? Breaking promises made to your God are irrelevant but you still believe in him? Supposing he still believes in you afterwards. If you notice I was complaining that you have to go through the charade just to do the best by your children. Unlike the unsavoury biblical bloke who was about to sacrifice his son. Do you honestly believe that the congregation who repeat the chants back to the vicar at a wedding even think about what they are promising? or indeed that a fairly rational vicar believes they do?

Have you ever tried reading the tripe you write before you press submit?

Oh and by the way, its humour not humor.....

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM

Stringsinger: "If I have hurt anyone's feelings, I apologize for that, though I am convinced more than ever that this discussion needs to continue."

THAT is one of the most coolest things posted, I've seen in quite a while!!!!!
I hope that is honored!!


Keep in mind, that the part of the brain that analyzes data, is different than the intuitive part. What seems to be a delusion to one part, may not 'compute' the same way to another part...and vice verse!!

Perhaps being open to the possibilities, and welcoming the possibilities when they start, and come a knockin', may cause the intuitive part to show you that the analytical part is the deluded side....all I can say, is that stay open to new music!!


Highest regards to you!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 11:08 AM

You are saying that there is no difference between saying something and changing your mind and lying in advance with clear intent to deceive. I pointed that out to the others to indicate that your words have no value here other than taunts and clumsy attempts at humor because. If you freely say that you would lie on an official form, there is next to zero chance that you would bother to even try to imagine the truth to tell it to us.

Why think things through for yourself when a regurgitated Dawkins meme will do just as well? Say what is easiest. Say what gets the biggest rise.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

Yep. I said it is perfectly acceptable to say you are a Christian in order to ensure your children get accepted in a certain school. Even if you don't believe in all that nonsense.

A bit like the vicars and church goers who happen to be divorced. They attested in their church to be together till death, in sickness and in health. I know. My first marriage was in a church. But when we decided to split, do you know what? just like every other hypocritical person, the promises made in church to an imaginary god meant sweet FA.
Lying, double standards and promising moon shine to achieve your aims are as much part and parcel of religious clubs as they are in any other arena.

With two differences. With religion we can add hypocrisy to the charge sheet and with my school example I said it is wrong we have to go to that length just to keep superstition happy. I don't see many churches questioning their stance. ..

Sometimes you just have to spell it out. If Sailor Boy thinks that is persecution give me a hammer and nails. I'll show you how to really persecute the smug buggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:47 AM

I am sorry. I confused Stringsinger and Shaw. Though everything but "Jacko, and Whacko" still stands.

Stringsinger lost the argument "Militant Atheism has become a Religion" So he started "Non-belief in a god is not a religion " in hopes I guess, of moving the discussion to firmer ground.

At least he is no longer laboring under the delusion that atheists do not evangelize.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:40 AM

Please note folks that a week or two Steve Shaw was saying that Atheists, including and especially Dawkins do not evangelize.

He was constantly calling me "Jacko, and Whacko" and he said that he was doing that to "prod" and "rib" me.

I guess name calling and nastiness is only wrong when it is directed at his side?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:11 AM

'I've tried to keep personalities out of this discussion. I think I've covered everything that I've had to say. I think it's delusional and futile for me to continue to argue about something that isn't there.

If I have hurt anyone's feelings, I apologize for that, though I am convinced more than ever that this discussion needs to continue. Dawkins will continue in spite of being slandered
by prejudice and ignorance. That has been the pattern of religious people for as long as there has been a history.

I give up. The dialogue has deteriorated to name calling and denigration of ideas.
No more from me on this issue except to say that because of the nastiness on the part of some here, I am more convinced that Dawkins is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:48 AM

Keep in mind that Musket (sans Ian avec blather) has already said on this forum that it is OK to commit fraud on school application forms because it is lying about "fantasy."

I think that if you go to nearly any atheist website you will find plenty of evangelizing and what they call activism. No goldfish to be seen. The only question you need ask is "Is blather (Musket) lying or is he ignorant?

http://www.richarddawkins.net/

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:24 AM

Those atheists eh? Always in your face. Pushing their reli... err. Belie.... err...

I'd stick to pocket watches myself. It is precisely comments such as yours above old dude that show the issue. Us and them.

Except there is no them.

Sure there are people who try to assert a claim for representing a system they self style as atheism. But by that standard, prisons and secure hospitals are full of murderers who reckon god told them to do it. Same as suicide bombers being told their deaths are consistent with Islam despite counter claims to the contrary.

The difference is that being religious is to have a position. Might be based on genuinely believing the fantasy aspects or just accepting the inferred wisdom of the metaphor but it is belief.

Not believing includes having as much of a stance as the pet goldfish. Such people, and I include myself in this, just get a bit wound up when religious people think their hobby extends outside of their church / mosque / home / mind.   If a religion is to do what it sets out to do, it needs to influence society. And that is where the fun starts.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM

Sorry, that was me, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 08:50 PM

OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:33 PM

"Religion is something that wraps itself round the almost certainly false premise of God's existence." This is only true for some religions. There are, and I repeat, a number of religions that don't include the idea of god or gods, and a couple who spell out that it doesn't much matter whether they exist or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:51 PM

Interesting article about China Gfie.

"Religion has been around for a very long time, and if we rush to try to push for results and want to immediately 'liberate' people from the influence of religion, then it will have the opposite effect and push people in the opposite direction."

"Religion basically upholds peace, reconciliation and harmony ... and can play its role in society," Wang said.

"But due to various complex factors, religion can become a lure for unrest and antagonism. Looking at the state of religion in the world today, we must be very clear on this point."

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

Being as one of the leaders of the 'so-called liberal' agenda named, none other than Rockefeller..yes, of THE Rockefeller Dynasty, says that Communist China is the ideal model for the world...looky what I found:
Sounds familiar, doesn't it???....for those who have succumb to propaganda

.....and you thought that those bankster/corporate moguls were on the 'other side'!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:31 PM

I'm not self-satisfied about anything. I don't know whether there's a God, even though I might be quite a long way down one end of the spectrum. I want to hear what people have to say about this. I'm open to discussion and I'm open to persuasion. All I ask for is evidence. When I see people acting as though they have enough evidence to be certain (especially when they think they have evidence in favour of God), then I haven't got a lot of patience. Those people deserve condemnation and derision. Or at least whoever it was who hoodwinked them deserves it.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:42 PM

Actually, I'm not that familiar with Dawkins...however, that being said, my personal experience with spiritual things has not been dependent on his or any interpreter's teachings. I'm not saying he is one way or another, but it's okay, I have access to that which I need..and it's been a GREAT ride!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:41 PM

"Atheists don't really jiggle around to classify themselves as better or worse than someone with a different, er, belief system - basically because we haven't actually got one."
.,,.
Not sure I agree with you 100% on that, Steve, although as you know I am on your side of the question throughout. Do we not, I sometimes find myself wondering, perhaps feel a bit - what - self-satisfied? content with ourselves????... - by virtue of the fact that we are not taken in?

But I write this with the utmost tentativeness ~~ genuinely in interrogative, not assertive, mode.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:22 PM

Jack, look
They took someone who for 12+ years called them friends and made a mockery of his core family values. The other threads make a mockery of their own country and those who are losing their lives protecting the right to talk about this stuff, and make a mockery of everyone's faith no matter what path one follows. How do you think you can carry on a conversation about the Gospel of Dawkins. Cause it isn't really about faith or non faith, it apparently is about he who dies with the most toys wins and no other person matters. Because that has played out quite well here on mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:53 PM

"He is one of the more thoughtful and measured posters here and he takes a good deal of trouble over what he posts. "

Now I know you are taking the piss. He reads a line or two of any given post and free associates. How can someone who is "thoughtful and measured" tell me three times that he has read my link then twice insist that I read the same article because it had "important information?"

You are just counting on no one wading through Frank's crap to see just how thin it is. Or more probably you don't read it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:49 PM

Jack
for your own sanity, you are wasting your time and energy. people of faith here at mudcat have treated their faith a personal ever since I been here. Guys like Jerry and many others, their beliefs are held personal. The church of Dawkin is not like that, they love being in everyone's face so why bother

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:44 PM

Ok, Jack....I'm not going to press into it. If you get it, you get it, if not, well you might look into it.

...and Musket, don't forget to put the kettle on the fire!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:27 PM

I think that the biggest myth that we hear from atheists is that somehow, the rejection of the religious paradigm makes them different people or even better people.

I think it's a myth that you've heard this myth. Atheism, to start with, is not "the rejection of the religious paradigm" (whatever that means). I'm an atheist (and I think so are most other atheists) because, as yet, insufficient evidence has been presented to me to demonstrate anything other than that God almost certainly does not exist. Good atheism is a shrug, not a pointing of a finger. That isn't religion. Religion is something that wraps itself round the almost certainly false premise of God's existence. I'm no better or worse than anybody else, as far as I know (though we can break that down into categories, me and my friends). I know that very many people who adhere to religion live good and virtuous lives (though you're disqualified, no matter how nice you are, if you lie to children that myth is truth, or tell people that poverty is a virtue). Atheists don't really jiggle around to classify themselves as better or worse than someone with a different, er, belief system - basically because we haven't actually got one. I don't think you could come up with a single statement from any atheist that he's better than someone else because he's an atheist. We're a very self-deprecating lot, you know. Humility is my middle name and I'll bloody shout it from the rooftops.

And you need to desist from your ridiculous vendetta against Stringsinger. He is one of the more thoughtful and measured posters here and he takes a good deal of trouble over what he posts. You carry on like you do and you'll have everyone concluding that Jack thinks anyone who disagrees with him is automatically insulting him. We have words for that syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:08 PM

"Boy, you said a mouthful there!..maybe without even knowing it!!"

I know what I said GfS. I don't know how you drew all of that from it. I was just saying to Steve that his analogy has a bit of a hole in it.

All that other stuff. Comparing types of love and trust and all that, came from your head, not mine. I have nothing to say about it other than it is lively and imaginative and that does not conform at all to my ideas of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:03 PM

"When he talks about "The God Delusion" he is referring to the massive reactionary pulpiteers and religious pundits and the enabling that is done by so-called "moderates".

He said the book was written to attack the beliefs of his moderate colleagues. But of course that does not make him a zealot. Does it strings?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:41 PM

Goofus analysing Jack the Sailor.

Hang on, putting the kettle on. This could be fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:19 PM

Stringsinger, I cross posted after yours. All I can say, in regards to your last post "Howard, you bring up an interesting point. I understand why those who need religion defend it so vociferously."....To those who merely adhere to a set of dogmas or edicts, they may be clinging to some sort of personal security, and lock themselves into 'believing' those things because they feel 'safe'...but to those who have had a life changing experience, where something is 'added', and they KNOW what it is, they will hold onto that out of love, rather than merely having 'fire insurance'!!

GfS

P.S. Ask more if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:12 PM

Jack the Sailor: "You have always had the choice of whether or not to live as a woman and more recently, for all purposes other than reproduction you have had the choice of physically becoming one. Whether or not that reflects any doubt on your part that you are a man is something that can be found only deep within your psyche."

Boy, you said a mouthful there!..maybe without even knowing it!!
Something to consider: Could it be, as either an analogy, or literally, that mankind is the feminine part of God?......The answer is found in several teachings, and in the psychological make-up of men and women in general. In other words, the 'gulf' between men and women is uncannily made up of the same 'mechanics' (if you will), as 'God' has with men(as a gender)...and I could enumerate a list, if necessary...but I gave Howard Jones a piece of input, that if you scratch the surface, is rather profound. The quote was, ""Finding a woman who REALLY LOVES her man, is about as rare as finding a man who REALLY loves God!"......that one goes down several layers!""
Now, unless one has studied Psychology, and 'religion', it might not be apparent at first...but in the above sentence, you can also insert the word 'trust'(in the place of 'love')....instead of fear. The applications of the attributes of men and women are a direct 'reflection' of the attributes of 'God' and men. In many 'religious' teachings, beside Christianity, the head of the woman is man, and the head of man is 'God', and erroneously taught that women should be subjugated to man, WITHOUT the man being subjugated to 'God'...but rather, they teach that the man should be subjugated to their 'sect' of interpretation to whatever 'religion' they are 'promoting'. This is a MUCH misunderstood error, which has alienated a great many people!! I could sum it up in a way by saying,"That one needs not to fear surrendering ones self to one who has submitted to Love." I feel that you could figure out the ramifications of that....coupled with my earlier post that stated, that a virgin should not feel so separate from her man, that she could not approach him(or Him), for an orgasm....or 'spiritual' experience respectively....and it would seem that in either case, he(or HE) would be more that willing, and his(or His) pleasure to do so!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:54 AM

"I think you are correct that there is a (possibly unbridgeable) gulf in understanding between those with a religious viewpoint and those without. The latter find it difficult to understand why the former need religion, while they find it hard to understand why the latter can live without it, and assume that they are seeking something to replace it."

Howard, you bring up an interesting point. I understand why those who need religion defend it so vociferously. I understand that it is a conditioning that happens early in the way some are conditioned to drug use or alcohol. A replacement is sometimes a temporary solution to the addiction. I can't agree that the non-belief position doesn't understand the religious position. Quite the contrary in my opinion. Many non-believers were former religious people and those who at one time espoused "spirituality" or New Age.

When "spirituality", "New Age", or religious convictions are not enforced by adopting a superior attitude or belligerence then it is my opinion that because of the US Separation of Church and State implication in the US Constitution, people can believe in the tooth fairy,
Santa Claus or whatever they choose as long as it stays out of government and is not forced down someone else's throat. I have encountered so many who claim "spirituality"
as a means of feeling superior to others who "don't get it". They bought the T shirt,
and paraphernalia and all the trappings to exhibit it on their own soap box without allowing any criticism or skepticism about it.

Among non-believers, critical examination of non-belief is welcomed. This is another reason why it's not a religion. It's open to empirical verification and many don't think this is true but there is a great deal of humility there about what someone can actually know about anything. This is one reason that Professor Dawkins doesn't think the term "atheist" really covers the extent of the views held by non-believers and he relies on a sliding scale of belief in the probability of any god.

When he talks about "The God Delusion" he is referring to the massive reactionary pulpiteers and religious pundits and the enabling that is done by so-called "moderates".
These reactionaries have dominated the discussion of religion and "spirituality" for so long shouting down the voices of dissent. Now, that's changed. A new voice is being heard and of course the reactions range from contempt and offense to downright violence.

Instead of the term "atheist" I prefer FreeThought, the freeing from dogma and certitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:33 AM

While it is difficult to determine your motives Steve. Mr Stringsingers BS and lack of intellectual discipline is more than apparent.

>>>The other rants about Dawkins or anyone else who is a non-believer belies the sincerity of the ranter. They "protest too much" and avoid the issue by trashing the critical non-believer.

What is really wrong here is the total absence of civility when it comes to this discussion and the umbrage it takes by those with a religious agenda. Professor Dawkins has always had a discourse which was polite, attentive and sympathetic when interviewing religious types with which he disagrees.<<<

It is a wonder to behold how he talks about civility on the one hand and so thinly veils his incivility on the other. I'd like to see a survey on how many people he is fooling.

Do you think that he can produce a single example of Mr. Dawkins interviewing religious types at all whether he is doing it "politely" or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:20 AM

" I'm sorry to hear that religion has certitudes."

Steve, it goes beyond that. There is a kind of arrogance that says "my way or the highway" when it comes to espousing "faith". It runs counter to a religious conviction that says in effect that my religion is so strong that whatever you say makes no difference to me. That has a kind of integrity in itself, no matter how delusional I might think it is.

The other rants about Dawkins or anyone else who is a non-believer belies the sincerity of the ranter. They "protest too much" and avoid the issue by trashing the critical non-believer.

What is really wrong here is the total absence of civility when it comes to this discussion and the umbrage it takes by those with a religious agenda. Professor Dawkins has always had a discourse which was polite, attentive and sympathetic when interviewing religious types with which he disagrees.

Not so with many Christians.

This is one reason why this issue keeps coming up as a thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 10:57 AM

Steve Shaw,

It is often hard to tell whether you are trying to have a give and take or if you are just deliberately being contrary. In either case you are opening an interesting can of worms with this.

"This is not my idea of what "doubt" is. I've spent all my life as a big, hairy, gruff man, but I've often considered what it might be like to be a woman. This does not reflect any doubt at all on my part that I'm a man."

You have always had the choice of whether or not to live as a woman and more recently, for all purposes other than reproduction you have had the choice of physically becoming one. Whether or not that reflects any doubt on your part that you are a man is something that can be found only deep within your psyche.

You don't need to see a survey. You can simply examine the lyrics of Hymns and the contents of sermons and homilies. Look at the story of St Paul. The act to becoming born again is part of a process where one strays from the teachings and comes back to them. Overcoming doubts is a common topic of sermons, and is the oblique purpose of every Billy Graham and evangelical mission in any predominantly Christian country.

I honestly do not understand your dwelling on certitude. I do not think that it is a big factor in religion or the lack of it. Keep in mind that Dawkins dismisses the idea of his certitude or lack of it with a Douglas Adams JOKE about "fairies in the garden."

My father and grandfather both had plenty of doubts and experienced being born again. Their euphoria and joy at this and their wish to express it, I found both understandable and rather tedious. But I never detected certitude from them. It was more like "jump into the pool with us. The water is fine." Rather than "Do as we do or you will go to Hell." I realize that your perception and experiences were different. But I think that mine are applicable to a large number of people in the Americas and Europe, especially in the older denominations.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 10:31 AM

No Not all of it has been posted here before. I include the bit where O'Reilly was roasted for a little more balance.

"I'm sorry to hear that religion has certitudes. "

You didn't hear that from me. What I said, in different words, was that people who tend to express certitudes tend to express certitudes whether they are religious, anti-religious or not religious at all.

I think that the biggest myth that we hear from atheists is that somehow, the rejection of the religious paradigm makes them different people or even better people. IMHO it does not. I think that for the most part you are the same person before and after your conversion no matter the direction to or away religion.

Anyone who says, Jesus is my savior, is admitting their own imperfections, they are saying that they rely on Jesus' love, forgiveness, wisdom and compassion to guide them through their own uncertainty. Sometimes what you hear as certitude can be nervous self-affirmation.

It is hard to be generous about others contradictory beliefs when you are not certain about your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 10:09 AM

Almost all religious people have doubt enough to consider how it would feel not to believe.

This is not my idea of what "doubt" is. I've spent all my life as a big, hairy, gruff man, but I've often considered what it might be like to be a woman. This does not reflect any doubt at all on my part that I'm a man. Incidentally, I should like to have the survey results that demonstrate the levels of doubt you appear to be claiming. Almost all, eh? I have my doubts.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 10:03 AM

That's been posted before. I'm sorry to hear that religion has certitudes. Rather than long for such things, atheists recoil from the disgusting idea. Certitude is, in one word, everything that's wrong with religion. The people of faith who deserve respect are the ones who disdain certitude. All the rest are deluded. I'm not bothered about people who harbour certitude quietly inside themselves. I am bothered by people who try to force certitude on others when they have no evidence for it. The main victims of that are children. As for inner demons, most of us sleep peacefully and harbour no such things. Accusing atheists of having demons is just another frustrated ploy to, er, demonise us (as is saying that atheists are cut from the same cloth as religious nutcases). And Dick Cheney versus Mother Teresa? Cor,that's a close call. Let's predicate the decision on which of them caused most grief to most people. Still a tough one, but Mother Teresa wins by a short head.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 09:37 AM

" The latter find it difficult to understand why the former need religion, while they find it hard to understand why the latter can live without it, and assume that they are seeking something to replace it. "

As someone who has gone from devout child to Atheist young man to less than devout older man, I do not find what you say about to fit my experience of myself or others. Almost all religious people have doubt enough to consider how it would feel not to believe.

Some atheists are quiet about it and see it as a personal matter.
Most religious people are the same.

The zealots in both camps tend to be cut from the same cloth. St. Paul persecuted Christians before he became their greatest evangelist.

Hitchens carried his aptitude for dogma through several transformation.

>>As if eager to provide comic relief from this mismatched battle, American television occasionally summarizes it in its own you-can't-make-this-stuff-up way. "The O'Reilly Factor" on Fox News invited David Silverman, president of the American Atheist Group, to discuss billboards proclaiming religion a "scam." Throughout the interview, Silverman kept up a congenial face, claiming that there was absolutely no reason to be troubled, since all that his billboards do is tell the truth: "Everybody knows religion is a scam!" Bill O'Reilly, a Catholic, expressed his disagreement and clarified why religion is not a scam: "Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that." This was the first time I had heard the tides being used as proof of God. It looked like a comedy sketch with one smiling actor telling believers that they are too stupid to see that religion is a fraud, but that it would be silly for them to take offense, while the other proposes the rise and fall of the oceans as evidence for a supernatural power, as if gravity and planetary rotation can't handle the job.

All I get out of such exchanges is the confirmation that believers will say anything to defend their faith and that some atheists have turned evangelical. Nothing new about the first, but atheists' zeal keeps surprising me. Why "sleep furiously" unless there are inner demons to be kept at bay? In the same way that firefighters are sometimes stealth arsonists and homophobes closet homosexuals, do some atheists secretly long for the certitude of religion? Take Christopher Hitchens, the late British author of "God Is Not Great." Hitchens was outraged by the dogmatism of religion, yet he himself had moved from Marxism (he was a Trotskyist) to Greek Orthodox Christianity, then to American Neo-Conservatism, followed by an "antitheist" stance that blamed all of the world's troubles on religion. Hitchens thus swung from the left to the right, from anti–Vietnam War to cheerleader of the Iraq War, and from pro to contra God. He ended up favoring Dick Cheney over Mother Teresa.<<

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM

GfS, thanks for taking my point the right way. I genuinely don't understand what you mean by a 'spiritual experience', and since you brought it up I would find it helpful if you would be willing to expand on this.

I think you are correct that there is a (possibly unbridgeable) gulf in understanding between those with a religious viewpoint and those without. The latter find it difficult to understand why the former need religion, while they find it hard to understand why the latter can live without it, and assume that they are seeking something to replace it.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:37 AM

Howard, you bring up a most excellent point!
I was about to 'take exception' to what you were saying, UNTIL, I remembered that there was a woman whom I knew, Who I actually thought she LOVED her man. She relayed this story to me, that she said she had never experienced before she had met her present guy. She was telling me, that she was driving away down her driveway(she had a long one, in the country), and I believe she was thinking about the guy, and lo and behold she had a full blown orgasm...without any physical stimuli or contact to her own body. I had heard of that before, but never had an occasion to actually talk to someone who had that happen.
Now if you'd read a couple of my earlier posts, I DID say, in regards to the 'spiritual experience' that I did not believe you can 'give them to yourself'..at least not the ones I'm talking about....any more that you'd be able to 'control' where your experience with a psychedelic drug, such as psilocybin, would take you if you took enough to really 'get you off'!
What triggered her orgasm???....For me, I could only speculate..I wasn't there in her brain..I could only listen to her explain it...She was very much blown away, by it, and felt comfortable talking to me about it...and when she was done explaining it, i believe she was telling the truth....HOWEVER..(big 'however') women's orgasms are hugely emotionally triggered, more so than guy's...so whatever emotional threshold she crossed must have been a big one.
That being said, I've had a saying for years, that is sad but true...and you might want to give it some thought...."Finding a woman who REALLY LOVES her man, is about as rare as finding a man who REALLY loves God!"......that one goes down several layers!
In both cases, some spiritual experiences, and this woman who had an orgasm the way she did, both were 'surprises', and neither is under the control of the recipient, but the recipient can 'lose control'...but anyway, thanks for getting back, with an intelligent question, as opposed to a half witted 'rebuttal'!!

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:34 AM

Amos appears to use the word "soul" to describe being self-aware. However there is plenty of evidence that other animals show self-awareness, and the more intelligent ones show signs of mental analysis and learning from experience that he describes.

So far so good - it is, as he says, just a question of semantics. However religions, not just Judeo-Christian ones, credit the soul with additional qualities, in particular its continuance after death. This seems to me entirely a matter of faith and/or wishful thinking with no evidence to suggest this might even be possible.

I am insterested in GfS's reference to a spiritual experience. I have to admit that I don't understand what he means by this - which I think is his point. Perhaps it is, as someone said, like describing orgasms to a virgin. However virgins can experience orgasm through non-sexual stimulation, and if they are unaware of sex they won't think of it as a sexual experience. In the same way I wonder whether a 'spiritual experience' is actually a commonplace experience which those inclined to a religious view interpret spiritually, while those who are not interpret it differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:15 AM

OK..been gone for a while..had to get caught up...
Stringsinger, though the frontal lobe does 'light up' more through various forms of stimuli, it would be preposterous to say that whatever was experienced was a delusion...maybe when other parts of the brain try to analyze it, it may seem delusional, but when the frontal lobe 'analyzes' the rest of the brain, it sees a different picture, which it may interpret as delusional.
You may have had an experience, but unlike a lot of others on here, I'm not about to judge it, whether it was 'delusional' or not. Perhaps the experience was just a taste, and not profoundly rooted...but who can say. Your best bet would be to talk to Seeger, being as you know him, you say...and ask him about what changed his mind, or life or both. I'm not even going to try to 'talk' anyone into anything, regarding this, because, as I've said for years, "If I can talk you into it, something can talk you out of it, including yourself." These experiences are best shared amongst those who have had them, deeply, more than trying to proselytize about them....which ties into another post that said, that Jack said : "I think that you may have mentioned that study about the brain scan to stringsinger before because he used in an an argument to show atheists were superior to religious people because their brains do not light up."
I didn't say anything about one group being 'superior' over another group, HOWEVER, unless someone has had those experiences, all of them, if possible, that I don't think they can speak with any understanding about it....they just DON'T know. In other words, if you say you believe in science, but the part of your brain that processes data scientifically doesn't work, or hasn't been required to analyze data that way, don't you think that you'd be working with an incredible 'blind spot'?? ....Data that is processed in the frontal lobes, go to the frontal lobes, because other parts of the brain are not developed to process it. Simple as that.
Back to Stringsinger, the tests that were done were with (one group)psilocybin, (one group) meditating, (one group)atheists, and Music, (as per aforementioned). THOSE lit up the frontal lobe..once you've experienced that, you CAN utilize what you experienced into your creative side...but using your creative side to talk yourself out of what your has experienced otherwise, would seem to say that you might be 'double-minded' about various things in your life, which tends to hold people back...rather than drawing from the whole experience....wouldn't you say?
One more point, as long as I'm trying to cover a bunch, Stim posted:
"Non-belief in God is not a religion, but lots of religions don't believe in a god, or in any gods. You can look it up if you don't believe me."
I agree with that wholeheartedly...and for those who keep citing the Crusades and Inquisition, those were done by 'governments' kingdoms, if you will, who co-opted the Christian faith, IE, The Holy Roman Empire...the same Holy Roman Empire that made it a crime to have or read a Bible without the 'correct' interpretation by a 'priest'. This had nothing whatsoever to do with the teachings of Jesus, nor having a 'spiritual awakening'. This was about one group co-opting another group, and pretending that they were all one.....sorta like what the Democratic Party did with the 'Peace Movement' of the 60's....and some still don't see it, but in fact, that is what happened.

GfS

P.S. by the way, isn't it the same bigotry, to discriminate against blacks, because of their skin color, as it is to discriminate against someone because of their religion??...as in Race, CREED, and Color??????
Yikes! the hypocrites or losing their sparkly camouflage!!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:00 AM

"Souls are theologically based. They are a form of superstition. No one has ever measured one in a laboratory. "

Stringsinger's argument is lucid and understandable, but it is flawed by important omission. The primary semantic freight laden onto the word "soul" may indeed be theological, deriving from our Judeo-Chrtistian heritage.   But there is this "baby and bathwater" caveat. Thereis abundant evidence that a unit awareness uses a plurality of unit mental recordings to arrange its understanding of life. Every person who posts on any of these threads is doing exactly that. There is abundant evidence that the power of the unit of awareness to intend, decide or construct parts of the mindset it operates in seeking to solve the problems of life (and pose the right problems to solve) is of primary importance in the disposition and well being of the organism.

Frank himself is a living example of an owner/operator shuffling such mental constructs, and deciding things and putting then out there. There is nothing theological about this observation; but it is highly possible (and to my mind, probable) that in doing so he reveals his nature as a soul in action, not in the theological sense but in the ultimate sense of the aware center of the melodrama called a human being.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:23 AM

" agree that even an atheist keeps on looking for truth, but not looking for some vague misty entity such as an ultimate Cause"
.,,.,.
Not sure about that. Even Science has had to come up with something it chooses to call The Big Bang. A thread I OPd some years ago now, called "What went Big Bang?", produced IIRC, like the BB itself, probably more heat than light.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:53 PM

". "Evolution is corrosive to religion. And vice versa. A true understanding of Darwinism is deeply corrosive to religious faith."

(Citing Dawkins upthread)

Both Dawkins and the poster of this link are being just a tad short-sighted here, I believe. For one thing this statement is ONLY true for certain values of "religion" but NOT all of them. And, probably, it is only true for certain versions of "evolution", but perhaps not all--I don't know enough different versions of evolutionary theory to say..

Dawkins may be saying, however that because certain versions of evolutionary theory focus on mechanism and materialistic interpretations, that the statements are true for materialism. In this case he should say that "Materialism is corrosive to religion. And vice versa. A true understanding of materialism is deeply corrosive to religious faith."

To make it a little clearer, the issue of causation is not included OR excluded in basic Darwinism's propositions about how species win or lose over time. But it is certainly eliminated in the extreme versions of materialism which include the paradoxical fact of thinking about materialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:55 PM

"Dan, that's just silly. No one is making such a claim. These are straw men in an argument that has gone on far longer than one would expect it to. "

Where were you when they were arguing that Christian schools were dangerous because of the Crusades and the inquisition?


"No one is going to convince anyone to change their minds."

Dan is not asking anyone to change their minds. Dan is asking atheists activists to back down on the Jihad.

Dan didn't start this thread. Lots of people had lots to say before Dan. Why jump in and tell Dan to end it? Why tell him to "go outside and play?" What is wrong with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:22 PM

Non-belief in God is not a religion, but lots of religions don't believe in a god, or in any gods. You can look it up if you don't believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:36 PM

But to roundly dismiss the human instinct for reaching into the infinite, contacting the divine, or otherwise seeking connection with the ultimate Cause in the universe, is a very dull-witted thing to do. Even an atheist keeps on looking.

But to try to find answers, without searching for evidence, in the infinite, the divine or any ultimate cause is a very dull-witted thing to do. Your intellect will be stifled as you dismiss the need for evidence and seek solace in the exceptionally improbable. The great thing about those atheists is that they keep on looking, they relish the search and they don't allow themselves to be diverted by talk of almighty this or supreme that or supernatural the other.

Sorry to reverse-paraphrase you, but on this occasion you do appear to have things somewhat arse about face.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:32 PM

" In the broad sense, their Atheism is indeed a religion."

Eliza, I would say that it is more of a movement than a religion. There are no gods to worship. More and more non-believers are speaking their mind and criticizing the role of religion in society particularly when it claims to have a corner on the market of morality.
I doubt very much whether religious people are hated or reviled by non-believers. Quite the contrary. Many have come from the ranks of religious denominations and are sympathetic
to the religious having been there once themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:25 PM

Jim Carroll has a wise statement to be heeded, here.

"does that mean that to be 'religious' is a bad thing, or just that it is 'bad' not to ascribe to the same religion as they do - do tell?"

Suppose that atheism is considered a religion, (I don't think it's true),
wouldn't it be intolerant and bigoted not to accept it as equal to any other religion?

If it is considered "fundamentalist" then those who make that accusation should examine their role in enabling Christian fundamentalists or fundamentalists of any denomination including Judaism and Islam.

There are some Christians who speak out against the fundamentalist aspects of their religion and do it well. Instead of going after atheists, Christians, Jews, Islamists, Spiritualists or whatever would do well to go after those in their own religion(s) who they consider fundamentalists and leave atheists alone, including Dawkins who has been misrepresented here. Most of those who criticize him have never read his books. He has stated his views succinctly and no one is required to accept them without examination. But ad hominem attacks against the man is doing a disservice by polluting the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:04 PM

Those who criticize Dawkins as a shallow money grabber are doing ad hominem.
Christians Tim LeHaye and Jerry jenkins have made far more money in their "Left Behind" series than Dawkins could ever make. Their Christian doctrine has sold a million or more. I don't see any religious person on this thread going after them.

I think contacting the divine or an Ultimate Cause has to be looked at objectively. Trampling on science and knowledge is far worse. What is important to the human heart is honesty and integrity.

Souls are theologically based. They are a form of superstition. No one has ever measured one in a laboratory. An ontological or cosmological argument is refutable because,
1. Evidence for a soul has to be shown to exist and 2. The ultimate Cause argument is refuted by the fact that even an ultimate Cause has to be caused by something else.

The criticism of religion is not trampling on anyone personally unless they choose to take it that way which is irrational. A discussion shouldn't be contingent on someone taking an offense at a different idea. Attacking a person in an ad hominem way is offensive.

I agree that even an atheist keeps on looking for truth, but not looking for some vague misty entity such as an ultimate Cause.

Eliminating superstition would mean that people would be less susceptible to witch-burning, homophobia, persecution by religious people, and the development of a rational behavior that would recognize the value of every human being regardless of what they believe and the capacity for questioning beliefs that are outmoded and not useful to society.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:11 PM

It is perfectly okay to dispute, reject, and counter-argue against any piece of dogma, high or low.

But to roundly dismiss the human instinct for reaching into the infinite, contacting the divine, or otherwise seeking connection with the ultimate Cause in the universe, is a very dull-witted thing to do.Even an atheist keeps on looking. And the collection of impulses articulated by our species over the last four thousand years concerning source, ultimate Cause, and similar topics, is evidence that something about the question is important to the human heart, and should not be trampled on.

Why step on the soul just because you want to eliminate superstition?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:04 PM

Well, pete, I regard that post of yours as a sort of Christian atrocity. I wouldn't mind betting that a good few Christians, when they see it, will be clenching their buttocks tight. As for me, I'm going to have to go and buy a new corset now.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:56 PM

seems to me that communist regimes were political ideologies,but definitely encompassed atheistic and evolutionary dogmatic enforcement.though most atheists dont go round murdering,i fail to see how these tyrants disposal of political or religious dissenters was inconsistent with atheistic and evolutionary worldview.
there have of course been "christian "attrocities " and i leave that to you to decide if such things are consistent wth the example of Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:54 PM

Some posts up, these remarks appeared:

I bet the guy that runs North Korea is a card carrying Christian Strings since that is your only focus. Stalin must have been a Christian also cause certainly no atheist is capable of doing evil deeds right ...

and leave us not forget the Christian Mao Zedong in his great leap forward barring religious practices ... murdered tens of millions. Had to be a christian because no atheist would do that

Dan, that's just silly. No one is making such a claim. These are straw men in an argument that has gone on far longer than one would expect it to.

"Morality" is not a christian concept, it is a philosophical concept appropriated by religious sects. Individuals can have a robust moral compass without reference to the undue influence of "spiritual leaders." Religion has played a role in cultural development, in human behavior in order to survive in any given place. Some religions leapt the banks of the rivers where they originally flowed and place strict instructions on people who no longer live in the way or the place where the religions arose. Christianity is one of those religions that has extended its reach too far, but others are equally controlling, if individuals will let them.

Humans who recognize that they have free-will and autonomy are perfectly capable of living peacefully in communities without reference to individuals who would control others through religion. But there will always be adherents who can't understand how some can live outside the constraints of religion. That is their problem, but they refuse to understand and continue to try to influence others to join the fold.

I know of many famous atheists but I don't read a great deal of their writing. I don't need them to justify my lack of belief in someone's creation story and mores and folkways that have no ties to a reasonable civil existence.

It's time to go outside and play, and leave this silly argument behind. No one is going to convince anyone to change their minds.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:44 PM

I'm so relaxed I'm almost asleep. Or am I in fact getting confused? Am I falling asleep because of the predictably unchallenging nature of your posts, I ask myself?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:28 PM

Relax Steve Shaw. No one wants to argue that point with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:20 PM

The tired old Stalin/Mao chestnut rears its ugly head again, I see. Now I have no time for these two men nor their stinking regimes. But they did not kill anyone "in the name of atheism" any more than Hitler killed people in "the name of God". You wanna argue that point? Great, fire away, but, be warned, there is a far closer connection with specific faiths involved with Catholic Hitler and the Holocaust, so be careful what you wish for. And, I hasten to add, it is not a point I would ever try to argue: I'm simply asking you to think this through before you get all black and white about it. For all I know, Stalin and Mao might have killed people because of their adherence to a particular organised religion. On the whole, organised religion got in the way of their brand of "communism". Also, many others were killed because they were seen as opposing the communist ideal. Many of the people who were killed under Stalin and Mao were killed because they got in the way of a particularly severe case of one-track-mind zeal, in their case, for state communism. You can't commit atrocities "in the name of atheism" because atheism is not a creed, philosophy or belief system that you do things "in the name of" (state communism is, of course, so don't get confused). And I'd remind you that I have expressed caution many times before on this forum - more that all the other atheists who post here, I'll bet - against rushing too easily to the accusation that atrocities are committed "in the name of religion". Most of the ones so characterised are actually committed in the name of greed for land or resources or in the cause of downright bloody-minded imperialism. It's fine to oppose religion or atheism, as long as we do it for the right reasons. Anything else, olddude, is just brainless demonisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:01 PM

"Non-belief in God is to embrace the truly awesome wonderment of universal mystery during the brief time we have the chance to do so. "

Yes, the idea that you need Spirituality or Religion to do this indeed specious. Well said,
Blindiver. I enjoy reading your posts.

"Pondering Theology can be great fun - like pondering Myth & Folklore, none of which is actually true, but nevertheless tells us something about the sort of beings we are and the sort of journey we've had in getting to where we are today."

Yes, there is a cultural value in knowing about what the bible(s) say (says). Once you know it, you can see how delusional it is.


" To take such things literally is, I fear, not just to them a considerable disservice, but also ourselves, and (perhaps most importantly) our children by clouding their innocent brains with the darkness of an ancestral ignorance that has no more 'reality' than Quatermass or the Cybermen, and a good deal less entertainment value to boot."

Man, I wish I could express myself as well as you. "The darkness of ancestral ignorance" is poetic and applicable to today's religious belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:21 PM

Old Dude, the only preaching done on this thread has been to trash certain atheists such as Dawkins because they don't like what he said. It's one thing to disagree with his statements and ideas and another to trash him as a greedy money grubber (a lie) or other epithets, which some have done, not you.

It's quite another to examine his ideas and make intelligent criticisms of his statements without lumping him into the same category as "televangelists". This is not only patently unfair but ignoring the reason for his audience. For so long now, religion has tried to stuff its ideas down everyone else's throats sometimes with violent brute force. If there is a reaction to this, can anyone be surprised?

Where is the humility here that some Christians claim to have? Some Christians and other religions demand respect but they do so without humility and mostly with arrogance, rancor, ad hominem arguments and false accusations.

Or yes, in mocking tones. Some mockers should practice what they preach.

Can it be any wonder that less and less people are satisfied by going to churches?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:10 PM

Dawkins isn't that rich compared to all the rich religious think tanks out there that manufacture their religious propaganda such as the lies that Fox News tells about atheists.

"Tide goes in, tide goes out. All you really need to know."

TheSnail, I thought the statement was applicable here. Thanks.

Some of the statements here have been "re-mock-able".

Steve, good points. Values are best transmitted by parental behavior not preaching or brain-washing their kids.

Religion has done quite a bit of their share of executions. Also, done in the name of god.

MgM, good point also. All of us have been deluded at one time or another. We all make mistakes based on faulty judgement, delusions, and errors. So, if man is made in the Christian god's image, that means that the Christian god must be delusional at least in the minds of man. The more I hear of the notion of god on this thread, the more I realize how much the image resembles mankind.

Les says: "You christians can't even agree amongst your selves never mind agree with all the other relgions - but why should you?"

As a point, Christians of every domination seem to have gone to war with other Christians.
History is replete with examples of this. Should anyone in their right mind respect this?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

""If we've legislated politeness, and legitimized the idea that disagreeing with somebody could potentially hurt their feelings, why bother to discuss anything?" asks the president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE)."

it's a good question and applies here.

One can always appeal to "Big Daddy" to salve bruised feelings. Just pray a little harder. :)

Christianity isn't propaganda? That's news to me. Remember, there are no elected representatives in the pulpit. Same with all the other top down religions.

Science is not involved in bruised feelings. That's the problem of those who suffer from them. Not true apparently with religionists.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:07 AM

>>>From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:49 PM

Stringsinger

Another interesting point by Douglas Adams who has given Ted Talks begins by saying that "science works through the testing of hypotheses that are framed to be vulnerable to disproof" and then says "Religion doesn't seem to work like that. It has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call 'sacred' or 'holy'. Here is an idea that you're not allowed to say anything bad about. You're just not. Why not? Because you're not."

Excellent. <<<

Two interesting points here. A supposedly would class scientist citing a beloved fantasy writer. Certainly this section is very childlike. "Here is an idea that you're not allowed to say anything bad about. You're just not. Why not? Because you're not." Perhaps Mr Dawkins is more interested in appealing to one's suspension of disbelief than and recalling battles with you parents over bed time than he is with serious analysis.



Above is the Adams quote with more context. There is a huge hole in his logic in " attacking religion." The hole is manifested two ways. Outside of the Adams (simplified reality field (this ia a joke)) religion is not the only topic "you are not allowed to talk about" By which, as he explains with the parable of the light switch, he means one can't talk about it without wondering if someone will take offense. Also fact there are more than a few things you can bring up in the field of science which will draw a lot more umbridge than questioning an orthodox Jew about using light switches on Saturday. In fact as I recall, I had a pleasant conversation about that with an observant Jew on this very forum, about that very subject. I won't accuse Mr. Adams of lying. He is a comedy writer after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:32 AM

"I bet for the right amount of money we can get the church of Dawkins to rewrite those segments of history to blame it on faith ."

The right amount of money is "free!" It a has been argued on this forum that the atrocities under Mao and Stalin were NOT the work of atheists because "Stalinism" and "Maoism" were religions. Yes I know that it is not the definition that the Mudcat current atheist usual suspects are using. But then we may be in store for a more thorough whitewashing from Dawkins. Apparently his "foundation" supports communism.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM

In 1967, Enver Hoxha's regime conducted a campaign to extinguish religious life in Albania; by year's end over two thousand religious buildings were closed or converted to other uses, and religious leaders were imprisoned and executed. Albania was declared to be the world's first atheist country by its leaders, and Article 37 of the Albanian constitution of 1976 stated that "The State recognises no religion, and supports and carries out atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in people." Tens of thousands were imprisoned executed

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:33 PM

I bet for the right amount of money we can get the church of Dawkins to rewrite those segments of history to blame it on faith ...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:26 PM

and leave us not forget the Christian Mao Zedong in his great leap forward barring religious practices ... murdered tens of millions. Had to be a christian because no atheist would do that

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:16 PM

I bet the guy that runs North Korea is a card carrying Christian Strings since that is your only focus. Stalin must have been a Christian also cause certainly no atheist is capable of doing evil deeds right ...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:49 PM

Stringsinger

Another interesting point by Douglas Adams who has given Ted Talks begins by saying that "science works through the testing of hypotheses that are framed to be vulnerable to disproof" and then says "Religion doesn't seem to work like that. It has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call 'sacred' or 'holy'. Here is an idea that you're not allowed to say anything bad about. You're just not. Why not? Because you're not."

Excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:43 PM

"A Muslim woman was beaten over the Boston bombing which showed a religious bias on the part of the assailants. It is because she was a Muslim. I don't believe that atheists did that.
They don't burn down mosques either. "


Do you think that people carrying around these ideas in their heads could have beaten that woman?

"I regard Islam as one of the great evils in the world,"

"Like Alexandria, like Bamiyan, Timbuktu's priceless manuscript heritage destroyed by Islamic barbarians,"

"Haven't read Koran so couldn't quote chapter & verse like I can for Bible. But often say Islam greatest force for evil today"

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:46 PM

A discussion on this topic is not a boxing match or a bar fight. A real discussion talks about the value of ideas, either a defense or a criticism that shares legitimate information.

Just a squabble over who is right or wrong doesn't bring into focus the reasons for the ideas presented.

Some of you may be tired of this thread but this issue is not going away since 30 million people have been cited as being non-believers of some sort.

Also, it may turn out that the recent bombing in Boston has to do with an idea of religion
in the same way that 911 did. These are a couple of reasons why this topic is important.

A Muslim woman was beaten over the Boston bombing which showed a religious bias on the part of the assailants. It is because she was a Muslim. I don't believe that atheists did that.
They don't burn down mosques either.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:53 PM

GfS, I personally have had "spiritual experiences" and I've come to realize later in hindsight that they were delusional.

" Also tested were atheists. That area of the brain(frontal lobe) did note light up at all."

I agree that this can happen. You can simulate a "religious" experience through electrodes, mushrooms or other devices. That doesn't mean that it's not delusional.

"because, you actually don't know what you are talking about."

Not true. Delusion does exist. Misinterpretation of psychological events do occur.



"don't let the bad behavior of some church fanatics, or shallow people, turn you off to being curious about a fuller human experience....because it is real!"

I'm sure it seems real to you but is unverifiable scientifically. Until you can prove this experience is not just delusional or misperceived, I'll continue to be skeptical.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

Dawkins on Ted Talk

I recommend everyone hearing this Ted Talk. It's a fresh breath of sanity.

His thesis is that Darwinism and religion are incompatible. "Evolution is corrosive to religion. And vice versa. A true understanding of Darwinism is deeply corrosive to religious faith. It teaches people to be satisfied with trivial, supernatural non-explanations. It teaches them to accept authority,revelation and faith instead of always insisting on evidence."

"What I want to urge upon you (the audience at Ted Talk) is militant atheism."

When I hear him say this, considering the religious fanaticism in this country, it sounds reasonable in context. There are too many fanatics in the US. He thinks that evolution is essentially "atheistic". You can argue that point and I hope that it can be done without rancor but I'm not holding my breath on this.

A "re-mock-able" statement is made by George W. Bush. "Atheists are not patriots."

Educated religionists from the Pope on down on firm on evolution but in the US,
this is not true. They are called Creationists and their ideas should not be respected.
Again, as people, the inherent human capacities for love and social constructive behavior should be respected. Not the idea of Creationism which is predicated on a blind canard that "life is too complex to not have been designed by a "creator". Listen to Dawkins' explanation of this.

Kenneth Miller, a devout Christian has written "Finding Darwin's God" is one of the most effective attacks on "Intelligent Design".

This Talk could be the springboard for an intelligent dialogue about this issue as long as it isn't buried with accusations, name-calling, ad hominems and the usual brickbats we've found here.

Another interesting point by Douglas Adams who has given Ted Talks begins by saying that "science works through the testing of hypotheses that are framed to be vulnerable to disproof" and then says "Religion doesn't seem to work like that. It has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call 'sacred' or 'holy'. Here is an idea that you're not allowed to say anything bad about. You're just not. Why not? Because you're not." That provokes laughter and it should. "Why should it be that it's perfectly legitimate to support the Republicans or Democrats, this model of economics to that version of economics, Macintosh instead of Windows, but to have an opinion about how the universe was created, no that's holy. There's no reason why those ideas shouldn't be open to debate as any other."

Listen to the talk and we'll have something decent to talk about.

Here's a quote for you from Bertand Russell, the British philosopher:

"My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:01 PM

Will try to get down there soon, Les. Seems I'm either tied up (not literally!) or too tired come Wednesdays these days...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:54 AM

"A good example of what is wrong with Jack's arguments. These two concepts, Jack, are not mutually exclusive as you seem to think. It is perfectly possible to be entirely honest AND very rude simultaneously."

Which is exactly the point I have been making all along. Which is why I made this sarcastic comment.

"Just being honest. "

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:35 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:15 PM
Are you perchance being "rude"? Heheh.

From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:39 PM
Just being honest.
.,,.
A good example of what is wrong with Jack's arguments. These two concepts, Jack, are not mutually exclusive as you seem to think. It is perfectly possible to be entirely honest AND very rude simultaneously.

He makes a similar sort of category error in his constant assertion that to say someone is 'deluded' in one particular, or that one thing in which a person believes is delusory [as in Dawkins' title] is in every way equivalent to accusing him of being insane ~~ WHICH IT JUST IS NOT, JACK!

Geddit?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:34 AM

What if all the christian faiths got together to agree on what they agree on. No we all know that that is silly.

Just read the God Delusion - it's a great read and very funny

See you down The Beech NS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:52 AM

"Spleen Cringe - PM"

Sorry, Jack, I haven't logged in for over a year and I've no idea what my password is. Unless the memory ceases to falter I won't actually see that pm.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:50 AM

By all means bring up your children in the value system you believe in. But try and do it in a way that doesn't damage them - take the elements of guilt and fear and so on that seem to permeate so much of mainstream religious thinking out and that would be a start. That's what I wish my folks had done. That's what I'm doing. Try not to let your god be a 'vengeful' god, if you now what I mean. Vengeful doesn't help.

Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go to a lake of fire and fry
Won't see 'em again till the 4th of July

Meat Puppets (to bring some wonderful American music in).

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:25 PM

GFS

I think that you may have mentioned that study about the brain scan to stringsinger before because he used in an an argument to show atheists were superior to religious people because their brains do not light up.

I've read you describe this before and not quite understood you. Its like the monks and holy men who can change their body temperature or lie on a bed of nails because they use their faith to train their bodies. Are you saying that some people cant train their "pleasure centers" that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 10:28 PM

Stringsinger: "Spirituality is the substitution for a belief in a god. Therefore it is not atheistic.
It assumes an ethereal presence of some sort, undefined and unverifiable."

Ah..but you are consummately wrong. I probably have to find my posts about the MRIs....I'll put in a nutshell....
I posted a link, a while ago, that had a video, where they tested people using MRI. Psychedelics (mushrooms in particular), Music, meditation, and sex, all lit up the frontal lobe of the brain...and though they lit up that area, it doesn't mean they all traveled the same paths...so in essence, that area for all those activities, gave a sense of 'euphoria', however each activity had distinct different sensations. Also tested were atheists. That area of the brain(frontal lobe) did note light up at all. True story.
So for all those who never had a spiritual experience, and then come off and say it is a delusion, you don't know that..unless you have something to compare it with..and you don't....neither can you know what someone has experienced, when they utilize a part of their brain, that you don't. The video goes onto say, that that is a reason why spiritually minded people can't understand why atheists 'don't get it', and the reverse is also true..atheists can't figure out why, or what tangible thing is going on, within people who focus onto their spiritual experience.
That being said, I'm NOT a 'religious fanatic'..I only know what I know, and seen what I've seen, and I'm not up for being told by people who have not experienced that, that it doesn't exist....because, you actually don't know what you are talking about.
Now, if you don't like some of the world's religions, I don't blame you...and that includes what some people pass off as 'Christianity'...and that being said, don't let the bad behavior of some church fanatics, or shallow people, turn you off to being curious about a fuller human experience....because it is real!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:39 PM

Just being honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:15 PM

Are you perchance being "rude"? Heheh.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:06 PM

If you do say that, they are the ones who would be better off not taking in your batcrap crazy opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:56 PM

If you can't say that to your Christian friends without 'em taking umbrage, find better friends, chaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:43 PM

>>Well, you see, Jack, no-one here is disputing that parents should pass on their values to their children. But values is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about telling your children that there is a God, that he came down in the guise of baby Jesus, etcetera etcetera.<<

In case you are wondering cringe this is exactly what I was talking about. I doubt you can say things like that to your Christian friends and still remain friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

It being called "delusional" and saying that teaching your kids what your values are is "child abuse." that we find disrespectful.

Well, you see, Jack, no-one here is disputing that parents should pass on their values to their children. But values is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about telling your children that there is a God, that he came down in the guise of baby Jesus, etcetera etcetera. As they grow older you will tighten up this message and introduce the notions of sin, guilt and worthlessness in the eyes of a God who will exact retribution if you stray. You will de-emphasise (to put it mildly) the notion that there is a very good chance that this God does not exist. On the contrary, you will make them chant by heart prayers that confirm the certainty of this God's existence and make them sing hymns of praise and attend church services at which this possibly non-existent fellow will be praised and beseeched to do things for us (often at the expense of someone else, a bit like Musket praying that Sheffield Wednesday will beat Burnley, or like me praying that my 95-year-old granny will survive her terminal illness when there are already far too many people using up the resources of this planet). There are plenty of superb values that parents can pass on to their children that are not predicated on faith. That's great. But if you want to include the above with the "values" you want to pass on, then that isn't so great.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:46 PM

Spleen Cringe - PM

>> Please however don't ask me to to respect some of the shit that goes with some belief - homophobia, oppression of women, bombing and killing and all the other things done in someone's god's name. <<

I agree with that, I'll wager that Olddude does too. It being called "delusional" and saying that teaching your kids what your values are is "child abuse." that we find disrespectful.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:41 PM

Orgasms are scientifically verifiable and quite enjoyable because they are real.

Oi, whaddya mean, "quite"? Come now!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:27 PM

The problem is not one of personal faith or lack of faith. I'm happy to respect your belief or none belief in a god - I respect my religious friends' right to believe, although I also reserve the right to tell them when I think they're talking shit - a right they also reserve for me! Please however don't ask me to to respect some of the shit that goes with some belief - homophobia, oppression of women, bombing and killing and all the other things done in someone's god's name. No-one has any right to expect me to respect that or any right to put me down for refusing to respect it. Also, where I live, two of the five state-funded primary schools are faith schools. I resent that my taxes are being used to pay for this: I don't personally believe there is a god, yet my taxes are used to promote religious teaching. On what level is that acceptable? Surely even believers would accept that non-believers shouldn't subsidise the promotion of their beliefs? This is just one of many example of where religion intrudes into my life, whether I like it or not. That's not about your private, personal faith (which I will happily respect, with the caveat of disagreeing with you when you cross over into promoting oppressive ideas as noted above) but about religion oppressing me. I have the right to object to that and will use it. If in the eyes of Jack, Olddude and some of the other believers here who seem to object to non believers stating their opinions, that makes me some sort of monster, so be it. Boo!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:00 PM

Spirituality is the substitution for a belief in a god. Therefore it is not atheistic.
It assumes an ethereal presence of some sort, undefined and unverifiable.
I didn't support GfS's conclusion. They are not different because they both require a "faith" by the person who experiences them.

It's amazing how much this discussion engenders downright hostility.

Ed, if I'm illogical please inform me how.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

"Atheism" has been redefined by its opponents to be something other than it means originally, a non-belief in a god which is opposite of a religious belief.

GfS, that is your opinion when you say "Again, spirituality is different from 'religion'"

Thus using stringsinger logic, spirituality without the belief in God is also the opposite of a religious belief which makes it the same as atheism.

Therefor, non-belief in God is Spirituality.

Thanks for clearing that up buddy!!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:06 PM

Posted too fast, the correct word is "logic" (not logicac) in my last post that read "However, I fail to see the logicac in that post". Sorry to confuse you further:)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:02 PM

Stringsinger, as to (what seems to be a response to an earlier post of mine) your post at 12:18 PM today, I respect your personal opinion. However, I fail to see the logicac in that post.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:41 PM

"Come come, now(pun intended)...it's not all that difficult, is it???
GfS"
.,,.
Yes. I have enough vanity to regard myself as a man of reasonable intelligence and a long [81] year* lifetime of experience.

And I have frankly not the remotest idea what you think you are on about.

~M~

* so you will appreciate that your punning injunction will not be that easy for me to accede to any longer...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:25 PM

GfS, that is your opinion when you say "Again, spirituality is different from 'religion'" I see it as a substitute for religion. It is scientifically unverifiable. Orgasms are scientifically verifiable and quite enjoyable because they are real.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:01 PM

MtheGm: "No, they can't, can they? Why, here is one who has popped up to tell us that God is in some way [how? how? tell us! please!] analagous to an orgasm. I am really having a non-orgasmic ball trying to get my poor, non-deluded, head round that one!"

Here's the analogy, that I referred to:


Subject: RE: BS: Who are the editors here?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:11 AM

Again, spirituality is different from 'religion'...and unless you've had a substantial spiritual experience, it would be like trying to 'explain' an orgasm to a virgin...and in like manner, listening to a virgin say there is no such thing as an orgasm, and therefore saying they don't exist is just silly to those who know differently!
Now there might be different reasons for a person NOT experiencing and orgasm, such as fear and insecurity about having one, and those people, often women, may group together and 'discuss' every aspect of being 'fulfilled' and coming to a consensus of how they are above it all..but the fact remains, they haven't had one, and for them to tell other women, who have had one, that having an orgasm with their husband doesn't really exist is just them explaining that they have missed out on something, that they have no idea about. Those who have had one can remember, what it was like before they had one...likewise, those who are frigid, can only 'play down' any 'need' for one.
Some women will 'fake' them...some people will also act like they are as good as experienced, but never had one. It's one of those things, that if you're willing not to 'fake it', and willing to be vulnerable, that all you have to do, is explain it to your husband, and ask him.
It's not a matter of 'believing things ABOUT' an orgasm, like belonging to a 'church', but rather, having the actual experience...and there isn't a way around it in this life.
Having a spiritual experience or having an orgasm is something that is available to everyone in this lifetime, and your husband would LOVE to accommodate your request...much like God regards his people as his Bride!!
..you'd just have to be there!


...........and here is the other one!:

"From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 01:11 PM

What is 'spirit', is spirit..what is flesh or material is material. Of the two, the spiritual experience is FAR more...umm..'awakening' than a physical orgasm...and actually lights up more areas of the brain, than a physical orgasm...the frontal lobe of the brain lights up, and more neurons are activated, than those who don't have that experience.
Now the brain can access different sensations of awareness, that unless you have experienced that, is really hard to explain...but one thing for sure, is that during a spiritual experience both 'time' and 'matter' take on a completely different sense of properties...and the experience is said to give the 'participant' a different view of what is considered to be the 'known reality'...so much, that often their 'reality' cannot be explained within the parameters of what we know, from this dimension....but rather this dimension has similar 'manifestations' that are indicative of ,as Crosby Still and Nash, described as, "...what is going on, down under you".
A lot of people, clergy especially, interpret 'spirituality' as 'another place in another time'...it's not. If it excluded 'now' it would not be 'eternal' or infinite...but to those who only count the physical experience as the 'ultimate', are limiting what they actually have access to. I cannot 'give' you that experience by explaining anything..nor can people give it to themselves, no matter how much they study the dogmas of 'religion', or adhere to the tenets of a particular sect of religion....or obey the 'rules' set forth by any 'religious' order....but your awareness, of things much larger and fuller, not subject to time fuses into your consciousness...and it's impossible, as far as I know, to discount it....as time goes on, there are reminders all along the way...that just keeps proving itself. Things fall into order...not an order that you can figure out, nor can you configure them out....but they make sense, as they unfold. That's one reason, people outside the experience can clamor all they want about a subject, that SEEMS to make sense to them...but it is only temporary, and in a short time is obsolete.
All I can say, respectfully, is it is like stepping into another dimension where your brain(for lack of a better analogy), sends and receives input far different than we do normally...and during one of these experiences, you have NO control, as to what is coming to you...hence the analogy of an orgasm is perfect!
Another thing to remember, is the experience is not just physical, nor mental...and is FAR greater than an orgasm. It is both 'great and terrible'!...and if there wasn't anything else attached to it, you wouldn't want one....only problem is, there is.
If you want to talk about it more, all I can do, respectfully is share what I know...but on this subject, I have no doubt.
When I went through mine, more than 40 years ago, and some subsequent to that, the things I saw and experienced, I have watched unfold as time went by up to the present, and as far as I can tell, beyond. It caused me to search out different writings to find consistencies,and lo and behold, they are there.
Without going into a lot of details, I will say that in music, for those who can compose, there is a wealth of info to process into sound!!
Originally, I was steered to the Mudcat Forum, by a world renown musician who, in her experience, shared a similar experience, and a common denominator that blew our minds...considering that we came from different cultures, almost half way around the planet.
Of course, I know I've been seen as somewhat of an oddball...but then, you should see it from my point of viewing!!
Anyway, I've answered you honestly and respectfully (this time..*grinning*..) and hope you receive it in the spirit that is intended.

GfS

MtheGM: "I am really having a non-orgasmic ball trying to get my poor, non-deluded, head round that one!"

Come come, now(pun intended)...it's not all that difficult, is it???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:00 PM

"All the science in the world is open to all the people - it's all consistant - no contradictions - except right at the edge of knowledge and understanding. That is Dawkins point."

Right as rain, Les! That's why non-belief can't be a religion. There's no certainty there, no faith. It's consistent because its tenets are provable unlike an airy fairy spirituality or a dogmatic clinging to an anachronistic religion.

The delusion is not about individuals at every plane of their lives, but only about their belief systems, particularly if they defend it by putting non-believers down. The act of degrading a non-believer such as Dawkins or any other because somehow you have a '"hurt feeling" about what they say is not rational. It's one thing to offer a debatable defense of religion but quite another to trash someone for emotional reasons because you don't like what they say. This "taking personal offense" is where religionists cry victimhood and destroy a debatable dialogue.

Many "experiences" are common hallucinations in mental wards. They are unverifiable.
This is where science steps in and reality begins.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:43 PM

Century mark!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:35 PM

Steve Shaw

Well, I have this weakness, you see, Snail. I don't mind someone giving me a lusty argument or even telling me that I'm deluded (though I do like to have their reason for thinking it). But when someone constantly nit-picks because of some wacky secret agenda they appear to have (let's call it "a chip on the shoulder"), or misrepresents what I've said in order to have a go, I bite back. If I think you're being silly there is a severe risk that I might tell you so (and I expect the same back). The thing is, I type my posts carefully and review them thoroughly before hitting send. If you want to have a bash at something I've said, but you seem not to be applying similar rigour, then you've got it coming. I haven't got all day to be tirelessly diplomatic with someone for whom that approach doesn't work.

Fairly mild by Steve's standard but I think it proves my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:17 PM

No, they can't, can they? Why, here is one who has popped up to tell us that God is in some way [how? how? tell us! please!] analagous to an orgasm. I am really having a non-orgasmic ball trying to get my poor, non-deluded, head round that one!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:06 PM

All the science in the world is open to all the people - it's all consistant - no contradictions - except right at the edge of knowledge and understanding. That is Dawkins point.

You christians can't even agree amongst your selves never mind agree with all the other relgions - but why should you?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:01 PM

Jack the Sailor: "Blind faith is a wonder to behold! LOL LOL!"

Ever meet a virgin that has it ALL figured out?? They can be bossy little bitches, ordering everyone around....but then when they get laid, and it rocks their world....but then they still might be bossy little bitches, and never get a clue....because they ignored the big one..and then act as if they are the only ones who ever got it good!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 01:44 PM

" The cover quote is "I lay out the evidence and people are free to ignore it or be fascinated by it.""

Just because Dawkins says it, it must be so eh? I wish my faith was as unshakable as yours ;-) Blind faith is a wonder to behold! LOL LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 01:09 PM

But you are a sailor and therefore your knowledge of anything doesn't get beyond knowing how to tie knots.

Or as you put it. (wholly inaccurately) Dawkins is a zoologist. The silly inference is the same.

Interestingly I have just got to my hotel room and the glossy magazine in my lounge area has on its cover a quote from an article by Dawkins as he is speaking at a literary festival here soon. The cover quote is "I lay out the evidence and people are free to ignore it or be fascinated by it."

Mmmm. Doesn't sound like an angry jealous god to me. Are you SURE you aren't reading Betty Swollocks books again Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:40 PM

That clears it up, then. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:32 PM

Hey, Either you have it or you don't. God does not exist merely because people 'believe' that there is one. Nor does one not exist, because some people haven't got close enough to 'feel' one.
God is NOT a religion, nor is physics null and void, just because you might not know about physics! You aren't going to read a book of physics, and understand all of it, nor are you going to read a 'religious' book, and understand all of it, either.
Having 'knowledge of' and 'knowing' are two different things altogether.
'Having knowledge of' is more of an academic exercise, while 'knowing' entails an experience in which you 'become one with the experience'...and like I posted earlier, but it might have been on one of NINE related threads, you can read about an orgasm..but it doesn't mean that you've experienced one...however, once you do, your perspective, gained only by learning behavior and symptoms goes right out the window....and likewise, those who have not had the experience of either God or an orgasm, sound like fools, trying to tell others that neither one can be. All you are saying is that you have not experienced one or the other, to really know what you are talking about...and to those who HAVE had one of those experiences, all you are saying, you say out of naivete. No matter what pedantic rhetoric you may wish inflict on other people, you really sound like a gaggle of young teenage girls tittering about what you think your first kiss should be like!.....Once one of them get their first orgasm, it changes their whole perspective, from 'theory' to 'practice'. Same can be said about a genuine spiritual experience...and both tend to change lives, forever.
...and like some babbling little school girls, who pretend to 'know it all', and act so self assured, the fact is, they don't know squat about what they titter about. They may have been frightened off from being intimate with a man, because they got the wrong impression, from a jerk....same with God.....you might have been 'put off' by some cleric, or group of other 'titterers' who said one thing, but really didn't know what they were talking about, by practice....and so that just re-enforces one's disbelief, that anything is 'out there' besides your limited understanding coupled with your frigidity.....it doesn't mean that you've experienced the depth of the human existence, it just means you haven't got laid..either physically or spiritually!
So you make up all these excuses, as to 'why' getting laid is either bad, or not that big of a deal, or having a genuine spiritual experience is either a delusion, or it doesn't exist...and in reality, what doesn't exist, is yourself in that experience....and then we have to sit through these semi-literate diatribes, by naive blathers, who have not even had that part of their brains 'lit up'...and yet feel compelled to tell us others, how their limited consciousness is all that exists...for everyone!!!
...and it is so obvious......and hopefully someday, you have that experience (either one or the other), and you flash on what an imbecile sounds like!!...and to make matters worse...you heard it from your own lips!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM

Non-belief in God is to embrace the truly awesome wonderment of universal mystery during the brief time we have the chance to do so.

Exactly. What a shame it is to believe that an inexplicably complex and law-breaking being created everything. An answer in a nutshell that actually answers nothing at all. Worse, there's the danger that this will stop you from looking. Even worse, from enjoying. The commonplace all around us is the most wonderful stuff any of us will ever know, and we all have mighty brains with which to explore it, untrammelled by lame "explanations". God is a brain-killer!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:21 PM

"The God Delusion" is part of the dogma of Dawkins. Maybe being someone who spreads his words is not part of a religion. But the are using dogma. Whether that dogma is religious or not. It is used to reinforce as specific illogical, divisive belief and it is defended by people like Steve Shaw as if it were Gospel.

This is just more goading, I'm afraid. Dogma requires certainty. Both Richard Dawkins and Steve Shaw (that is, me: I love the way Jack always lumps us two together: what an honour!) state loud and clear that they do not know whether God exists or not. To rattle on all the time about uncertainty equating to dogma is to point you out as, at best, semi-literate. And I'm not saying that (that would be "rude"). You do it all by yourself.

By the way, Gospel truth is no kind of real truth at all!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:18 PM

There are plenty of Americans Ed that are simultaneously preachy and nasty to each other and you, as a perceptive human being, must be able to recognize them by their behavior.

I have mentioned earlier that I can respect people inherently but not for ugly behavior or nonsensical ideas. Would you find it in your heart to respect Hitler or Stalin's behavior?

I respect some Christians, Ed, but not Christianity in itself. I respect science far more.
The history of any religion is fraught with bloodshed, wars, intransigence, rationales for ugly behavior and I don't think you can say that for science which is not a religion.
You might argue that the atomic blasts in Hiroshima or Nagasaki was a product of science but here, the general use of how it was used was not to be respected but as you say a product of ugly behavior. History of Christianity and other religions show that it inculcated nasty behavior by the belief system in ways science never could.

A religion by necessity creates a boundary line between people. You are either this or that.
You are inside or outside and the joke is that there is no evidence for its existence.

What I think can be separated is how a person behaves and what they purport to believe from their intrinsic worth as a human being. This is not relegated to religious "morality" but a basic core value as de Waal points out, that doesn't emanate from the "top down",
Big Daddy in the Sky (which I don't respect) but from the "bottom up", an evolutionary
behavior of compassion and empathy which predates religion which I do respect.

If anything, religion(s) tend to diminish compassion and empathy in many people.

Just as alcohol makes some people violent and aggressive. They are both used as soporifics.

Hence I have little respect for either.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:14 PM

pat yourself on the back, claim victory and enjoy the friends you have left if any

I can't take this shit anymore ... see ya

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:12 PM

"Stringsinger says: What's to respect here (with christianity)? "

Everyone.

I think this pretty much confirms my point about him.

He is clearly disrespectful. He makes no bones about it, though he does sometimes tries to cloak that in long winded, tedious, third person insults.

You don't have to call that being "rude" if you don't want to. Call it what you want. Just recognize that it exists and believe me that I don't have a problem is not with atheists. It is with people who are disrespectful. It is with people who do not want to live and let live. It is with people who read books by disrespectful people so that they can pass that disrespect on to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:11 PM

whats to respect?
that pretty much says it all doesn't it

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:06 PM

Is it true that most religions don't believe the other religions are really religous?

If this is true, then follow Dawkin's advice and stop believing that the one most of you were brought up in is anything other than a rag bag of old stories and make-believe.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:04 PM

I think that you have to keep in mind that the media, in the USA and the Commonwealth at least, loves a conflict. They tend to publish the most controversial things and ignore reasonable people and people of peace.

That is why Pat Robertson gets all the ink that he does and some one like Charles Stanley does not.

That is why Dawkins gets heavy coverage wherever he goes and other zoologists do not and anti-religionists do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:46 AM

Stringsinger says: What's to respect here (with christianity)?

I would expect that all persons should be respected, regardless of what they believe. There are assholes in all aspects of life, including those who claim to follow relious teachings and those who take an opposing view. I even know a few scientists whom I would say are assholes, but it does not mean I don't respect science.

Why would anyone promote the idea that a double standard should be used?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:40 AM

""Is the persuit of a good scotch a religion?""

Only if you are doing it outside the territorial boundaries of Bonny Scotland, when it becomes a Pilgrimage.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM

""Why is it that Christians preach peace and love and behave abominably by accusations,recriminations, nasty comments and aggressively violent words? What's to respect here?""


On a similar thought, why does the USA and it's citizens preach a respect for democracy and behave in such as ant-democratic way when it comes to the asperation of other countries? Does this mean that democracy itself, the USA or even all Americans are nasty and bad? Or, does it mean something else?


On a related thought, is it the alcohol that is the villian, or the opeople who abuse it?

alcohol and agression

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM

Ed T says

"Is the persuit of a good scotch a religion?"

according to the OED, if it is done with great devotion, I guess it is.

>>A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion<<

As I said before though, I would not use the word "religion" to describe Atheism. So obviously I would not us "religion" to describe Whiskyism. But I do think that the behavior of strong adherents to any cause can be very similar to that of the worst of religious people.

The defense of certain definitions of folk music is not a religion. But it can seem that it is reading many posts above the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:22 AM

MtheGM


I wasn't talking about this thread I was talking about "debating" while expressing the assumption that the other party is stupid or insane. The word he inaccurately uses and wrongly defends is delusional.

MtheGM, I thought you had I had this discussion already. Didn't you and I agree that there was no way to describe someone as delusional without it being a put down? Bill D manages to get his point across without the verbal put downs. So does de Waal.

Steve Shaw, and Dawkins use verbal put downs because their purpose is not to get their point across but to anger people and start a shouting match.

If you don't think rude is the right word. Choose another. But that is what is happening. That is what I am talking about.

"The God Delusion" is part of the dogma of Dawkins. Maybe being someone who spreads his words is not part of a religion. But the are using dogma. Whether that dogma is religious or not. It is used to reinforce as specific illogical, divisive belief and it is defended by people like Steve Shaw as if it were Gospel.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:21 AM

Is the persuit of a good scotch a religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM

The conspicuous threads on Mudcat support Steve Shaws contention that there are those who are trying to bait atheists.

The Crusade Brigade is essentially going after non-believers who have written books expressing their ideas. These are in no way "new Atheists" since non-belief has been around for as long as Hypatia was murdered by a Christian mob. The only main thing these books on non-belief have in common is a sharing of non-belief and a willingness to express reasons why. Therefore the Crusade Brigade have enmity for these ideas and start propaganda crusades about how atheists are this and that. When they throw their brickbats, they are like the schoolyard bully who claims "self defense".

Regarding de Waal, it is prudent of him not to get mixed up in a religious debate. He could lose funding, whereas Dawkins is from England and doesn't have to worry about expressing his ideas.

There are certain ideas that should not be respected. Certain ways that religion is practiced by the Crusade Brigade trashing "atheists". Religion has been the rationale for the subjugation of women, disregard for their reproductive rights, making them second class citizens in a Christian Man's world, "sons of Ham" being used to justify slavery,
bible verses on gun barrels in the US military, religious burquas and honor killings,
oppression of Palestinians by Christo- Zionazis, the trashing of evolutionary science by creationists..........none of these things should be respected. These are far worse than someone's idea of "rudeness".

I agree with Jim Carroll and wonder at the "militant new Christians" that picture Jesus with an AK 47. :)

Why is it that Christians preach peace and love and behave abominably by accusations,
recriminations, nasty comments and aggressively violent words? What's to respect here?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:14 AM

I oft ponder the Numinous, thrilled that there might be More Things in Heaven & Earth after all, but as to what that might be... well, I've no more grasp of that than our kitchen slugs have of the goings on in The Trafford Centre. There is enough (and more) to enthral me in the human world & the material realms of nature we inhabit and once dared personified in terms of Myth - which is how (I dare say) we conceived the rotten God-concept in the first place. Not one of our better ideas - along with Fascism, Communism, Nuclear Power, Conservatism, Folk Music, Morris Dancing and Clackers...

They say we can't uninvent things - and that those who do not remember the mistakes of the past are condemned to repeat them - but what we can do is live in hope for a more inclusive world-view predicated on the common, the falsifiable, the corporeal & the pragmatic rather than the lingering residue of a few bad trips our ancestors once had whilst off their heads on too much Psilocybe semilanceata during a solar-eclipse and so bowed their heads in terror of the unknown.

Thing is, we know it now; we even know that the stuff we don't know isn't going to be too dissimilar to the stuff we do. I dare say Stonehenge was built in the same spirit as as the Large Hadron Collider - to test a theory of what already suspected was true anyway. And so wonder recommences with every step we take towards the light, leaving our God concepts and Religions to slowly rot away in the realms of ignorance and superstition.

Non-belief in God is to embrace the truly awesome wonderment of universal mystery during the brief time we have the chance to do so. Pondering Theology can be great fun - like pondering Myth & Folklore, none of which is actually true, but nevertheless tells us something about the sort of beings we are and the sort of journey we've had in getting to where we are today. To take such things literally is, I fear, not just to them a considerable disservice, but also ourselves, and (perhaps most importantly) our children by clouding their innocent brains with the darkness of an ancestral ignorance that has no more 'reality' than Quatermass or the Cybermen, and a good deal less entertainment value to boot.

Much joy comes from KNOWING we're all in this together; but what possible satisfaction can there be in the delusion that those who don't agree with you will be spending an eternity in hell for the simple fact of being human?

*

(Apologies for the above - I'm still ill. This morning I felt so bad I spent 80 minutes watching the 4 episodes of Attack of the Cybermen on YouTube. Did it help? Like shite it did, although the Radiophonic Approximation of the Steptoe & Son theme some 12 minutes into the first episode did me smile. Check it out, though if you're pre-disposed to a literal fear of man-made demons then maybe you'd better not, although back in the day I recall a fair few daring to perceive a measure of the numinous in the global endowments of Perpugilliam Brown...   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGZQg7rdc8s)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:01 AM

Jack:

The question "Can you be religious without believing in God" is just as ambiguous, and for the same reasons, as the question "Is there a God?".

Cf., "Can you be religious without believing in ferglebothams?" (to which some will reply, "absolutely not!").

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:02 AM

Snail ~~ I have not always seen i2i with Steve on all topics, and occasionally we have addressed one another in not entirely cordial tones. But I don't remember an instance of what one could reasonably call 'rudeness' occurring [unlike a nasty little person called 'Lox' IIRC, who seems to have left us a while since, who once took against me for some unspecified reason & took to accusing me of wearing an ill-fitting colostomy bag - which I don't, but even if I did (Nice casuistic point ~ would it have been more rude if it were true or if it were not?)]....

In any event, I took it we were talking particularly of this thread, where Jack had written ~~

"Fact: Bill does not insult anyone.
Fact: People do not insult insult Bill
Fact: Steve Shaw is snarky and insulting
Fact: Steve Shaw gets insulted"

··· inaccurately & invidiously IMO.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM

MtheGM
"But I can't recall a single case where he [Steve Shaw] has been what I feel can reasonably be called 'rude'."

Not my experience.

Well, I have this weakness, you see, Snail. I don't mind someone giving me a lusty argument or even telling me that I'm deluded (though I do like to have their reason for thinking it). But when someone constantly nit-picks because of some wacky secret agenda they appear to have (let's call it "a chip on the shoulder"), or misrepresents what I've said in order to have a go, I bite back. If I think you're being silly there is a severe risk that I might tell you so (and I expect the same back). The thing is, I type my posts carefully and review them thoroughly before hitting send. If you want to have a bash at something I've said, but you seem not to be applying similar rigour, then you've got it coming. I haven't got all day to be tirelessly diplomatic with someone for whom that approach doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:19 AM

I personally suspect that the reason the terms have not been defined is because there cannot be a common definition for a phenomenon which is entirely personal. The idea of insisting on an "objective" definition for something that is only found in the subjective universe of one individual at a time is ludicrous on the face of it.

I agree with this. But I don't think it's what causes the problem. Religion is the default position in much of world (certainly in the US, the UK and most of Europe, Africa and Latin America). Religious buildings advertise their faith large and loud (literally loud at times, what with calls to prayer and those lovely jangling bells). Archbishops are embedded in politics. No-one raises an eyebrow at the religionification (I just made that up) of Christmas. I've been to many a wedding and funeral and no-one gives the slightest consideration to the fact that the overtly religious content of the services might sit badly with any atheists present (failure to join in with the lusty hymn-singing can't half make you look a bit of a twat). It isn't thought odd that children scarcely out of their nappies are told to believe that myth is truth (and no more disingenuous comparisons with Santa or tooth fairies, please). A lot of it is more amusing/irritating than important, but the principle is that religion holds sway. It doesn't matter what shape your personal deity takes (Jaysus, given a broad enough definition, I might even have one meself), but you can bank on your religion of choice (or birth, more likely) to megaphone it from the rooftops for you. That's the issue, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:33 AM

I think I'm with Joe on this one.

Although not an atheist, I do find those who are easier to talk to.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:29 AM

""You have to keep in mind that when you are being both an atheist and a jerk its not the atheism that people notice.""


"If a man fools you once, he's a jerk. If he fools you twice, you're a jerk." Proverb

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:16 AM

""Of course Atheism is not a religion.
But is anyone who hates God really an atheist?


Some people SAY they are atheists then act like God haters.
When you point that out they say that you are "attacking" all of atheism.""

Atheists don't hate God!! How can anyone hate something which he doesn't believe exists?

When it comes to hatred, it seems to be a primary emotion of the religious, applied to the deities of other religions and of course to atheists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:59 AM

MtheGM
But I can't recall a single case where he [Steve Shaw] has been what I feel can reasonably be called 'rude'.

Not my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:54 AM

""It seems that one cannot bring up a single religious topic on this forum without the usual atheist suspects jumping in and mocking the topic and mocking the person talking about religion.""

Nor without the usual suspect from the other side of the fence jumping in, either to profess righteous indignation at the insult of hearing the word "delusion" expressed as the opinion of an atheist, or to claim that ""the usual atheist suspects"" are religiously evangelising and trying to force a change of opinion on him, which they patently are not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:59 AM

Anyhow, re 'rude': I honestly can't see where Steve has been so. He has stated his case, with which

[along with Jim ~~ blimey, that doesn't happen that often: this is thread I shall remember!]

I entirely concur, with the sort of vehemence and emphasis of the sort usual for Mudcatters to fight their corners ~~ all power to him. But I can't recall a single case where he has been what I feel can reasonably be called 'rude'. In particular, I note that, like me, he avoids the use of what Aunt Edna would have called 'rude words' ~~ unlike an awful lot of people on this forum (which, as I have said before, is IMO a principal one of the unfortunate detractions from both its quality and its effect).

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:04 AM

"No, I am saying that de Waal and Dawkins are doing the same thing but De Waal is not being rude and Dawkins is"
Rude - oh dear!
Up to relatively recently religion held sway - it was part of our upbringing/brainwashing from the day we entered school - the Jesuits boasted of the lifelong effect they would have if given access to the mind of a child early enough.
It is an appalling fact that it has taken revelations of the widespread and long term rape of children for that grip to have been loosened.
Recently the slave-like conditions in the Magdalene Laundries has been added to the list of crimes against young people.
And you lot complain about "rude".
I notice you all have carefully avoided the warlike nature of militant sectarian religion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:30 AM

My faith in the supremacy of Sheffield Wednesday which can only be denied by pointing out a few facts bears a remarkable resemblance to those who assert their faith in the prescribed versions of a God.

Can you have religion without a god? Yes. Our gods come and go, get transferred and retire. We still have faith in them and put them on a possibly undeserving pedestal.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 01:02 AM

The reason the 'left' embraces atheism so adamantly, is because you can't have two supreme beings..they believe in government as their supreme being and that leaves no room for an individual with a conscience that gets its morals or independent thinking from elsewhere.
Elementary Watson!

GfS

P.S.....Then they'd have to be open to admitting that a bunch of other shit they've been propagating is full of holes, as well....Oh No!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:33 AM

"The is a God is not being debated" It has not been mentioned by either side.

"Can you have a religion without believing in God?" Is being debated.

The answer plainly is "yes" according to one definition of religion. No if there is any logical or fair reason to exclude that definition. The rest is denial, puffery, banter and personal attacks. Just another day on the Mudcat BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:15 AM

The bottom line is that you cannot clearly take a stand on a proposition whose terms have not been defined. And I think the proposition "There is a God", as it is blithely being debated here, is essentially extremely ambiguous. As a result this becomes a carousel married to a roller-coaster.   Joe's remark ("sigh") is completely understandable.

I personally suspect that the reason the terms have not been defined is because there cannot be a common definition for a phenomenon which is entirely personal. The idea of insisting on an "objective" definition for something that is only found in the subjective universe of one individual at a time is ludicrous on the face of it.

This has nothing to do with whether that something does or does not exist in those individual world-views. But it does indicate that there is no way it can legitimately be another person's concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:12 PM

Fact: Bill and Steve Shaw are people who are considered to be atheists.

Fact: Bill does not insult anyone.
Fact: People do not insult insult Bill
Fact: Steve Shaw is snarky and insulting
Fact: Steve Shaw gets insulted

Deduction: the reason that some atheists get insulted is because they are insulting other people.

To test this hypothesis, Steve why don't you be polite and see how people treat you. Or you could just stop illogically implying that this issue is about atheism. It is not. It is the childish behavior of a small few activist atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:35 PM

Discussion is impossible at this point. Fact and reason have been held in utter contempt. Both sides of the discussion are completely inane.

As I said before: [...sigh]

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:49 PM

Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:33 PM

[sigh...]

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:13 PM

Steve Shaw.

"a good deal of insult has been hurled at atheists around here!"

But not for being atheists. You have to keep in mind that when you are being both an atheist and a jerk its not the atheism that people notice.

Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins. But are outspoken champions of atheism both try to undermine religious paradigms using arguments that start with science.

De Waal sticks to the science and doesn't unscientifically call anyone "delusional."

Dawkins draws a confrontational line in the sand by starting the debate questioning his opponents' mental health.

One is inviting insults, the other is not.

Bill D does not get insulted and you do. Bill is as much an unbeliever in God as you. But Bill does not hate God as you do. Bill does not take it to the level of religion. You do.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:09 PM

>>"Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins"
You people really are something else
What you seem to be objecting to is that Dawkins and de Waal are indulging in something that happens in every pulpit in every country<<

No, I am saying that de Waal and Dawkins are doing the same thing but De Waal is not being rude and Dawkins is.

I guess you must be something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 06:13 PM

Jerry who? If Jerry got driven away, it either meant that he was insecure about his faith and couldn't stand to see it challenged, or that he logged in and read threads that he could easily have avoided, or that he was pissed off/bored with the whole concept of this board. If you jump ship, you blame yourself. You do not get proxies such as yourself to blame other people on your behalf. Leaving this forum was his choice. Don't start accusing others of driving him away. That's just a sort of arse-about-face blackmail.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM

We drove away a lot of great people because of it. Jerry rarely come here and rarely posts, he feels like a second class citizen because of his strong faith. Great job, he is a legend in folk music and been here since this place started and gets driven away. Not once, Not one tine has he push his faith on others. One of the master song writers and performers and the best friend of Art for 50 years. And ya know what Art is an atheist and do I care NO, Art is a treasure and a beloved friend to me.

great job at driving Jerry away, this place is way less without him. Sadly it is only a couple of people that did it

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:13 PM

And I treasure my atheist friends here on mudcat. Ya know why, because I don't care what the believe don't believe but I can say they always respected my beliefs even when I prayed for them when they were sick. They knew it helped me worry less. But they key is, they are friends. No so for some others that just kick up the dust in your face all the time

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:06 PM

Jack
Bill is a scientist, his math takes him on his path. My math takes me a different direction but one thing about Bill, he takes friendship serious. Not something I can say for a few others.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM

"Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins"
You people really are something else
What you seem to be objecting to is that Dawkins and de Waal are indulging in something that happens in every pulpit in every country in the world where religion is practiced - the difference being that up to comparatively recently it was compulsory for the vast majority of believers to attend these gatherings on the threat of public humiliation and even physical violence (one of our elderly singer friends has spent her life with a burst eardrum from a blow administered by a priest for attending a dance that went on past midnight, into Sunday morning).
It doesn't auger well for the rest of us if you evangelical inquisitors ever manage to get a voice in the world.
I don't attend church - feel free not to listen to Dawkins or de Waal if you don't wish to.
I've just realised that, despite my father's experiences at the hands of the church, had I written something like "sky fairies and bogey men" while he was alive, as I did above, I wouldn't have been able to sit down for a week.
I was taught tolerance, a fact which stood me good stead when I started recording singers in Ireland thirty odd years ago. Many of the people we met were devout Christians who never have dreamed of questioning or interfering with our beliefs (or non-beliefs, as you bigots would describe them".      
I get on fine with my Christian neighbours, but when you religious, bullying (not to mention deeply dishonest) fanatics get going it really gets to me.
You need to get into your thick, superstition-riddled skulls that some of the most viciously bloodshed in the world today is done in the name of God, or Allah, or Jehovah, or whatever brand you care to label your toxic product - religious persecution nowadays means persecution by the religious.
Should this planet ever get itself into a major war again it is quite likely to be a 'Holy' one.
How about a little tolerance, love and understanding yourself, eh lads

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

Bill D does not get insulted and you do.

Ask him. In any case, do I get a little whiff from this that you think insulting me is somehow justified?

Bill is as much an unbeliever in religion as you.

I am not an unbeliever in anything, especially religion, whose existence I can hardly deny.

But Bill does not hate God as you do.

How can I hate a thing that I have discerned exists, almost certainly, only in the imaginations of a certain kind of person, and who represents a notion that has no influence on the way I live my life? Do you think I have time and energy to waste hating that? I think not.

Bill does not take it to the level of religion. You do.

Neither Bill nor I do any such thing. Goad away, Mr Parrot.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:23 PM

I think there are several 'classes' of atheists. For example, those who merely do not believe in any God but go about their daily lives without giving it much thought. (I have a very dear friend who falls into this category.) Then there are those who are quite heated about 'religious' folk and despise all believers. These tend to have a dig when they can in order to make their views stridently known. Then there is the militant category, the 'Fundamentalist Atheists', whose aim is to undermine and overcome all religious activity in society, seeing it as harmful and dangerous.

Well I'm none of those. I'm one of those who never mentions atheism unless someone else brings it up in threads or somewhere else. But once I get involved in talking about the delusion of belief then I shall continue to put forward my forthright and honest views in as direct a way as I can muster until the whole thing flags and sinks from the general consciousness. I do think about it quite a lot, unlike your couldn't-care-less class. I'm never heated, always ice-cool and I don't despise anyone. And there really is no such thing as a fundamentalist atheist. There is literally nothing to get fundamentalist about. I've defended some religious activities that yield benign results. I don't see all religious activity as dangerous, though some undoubtedly is, 9-11 for example (a million Iraqis and Afghans would certainly agree, on top of the families of the people killed in New York). Harmful? Not necessarily, if you keep it to yourself as a crutch for your personal morality (though why you think you need that is beyond me). But harmful to kids who are lied to, told that myth is truth? Quite possibly, I should think. Categories are a bit too black and white for my taste, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:18 PM

"a good deal of insult has been hurled at atheists around here!"

But not for being atheists. You have to keep in mind that when you are being both an atheist and a jerk its not the atheism that people notice.

Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins. But are outspoken champions of atheism both try to undermine religious paradigms using arguments that start with science.

De Waal sticks to the science and doesn't unscientifically call anyone "delusional."

Dawkins draws a confrontational line in the sand by starting the debate questioning his opponents' mental health.

One is inviting insults, the other is not.

Bill D does not get insulted and you do. Bill is as much an unbeliever in religion as you. But Bill does not hate God as you do. Bill does not take it to the level of religion. You do.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:04 PM

But for some reason that joy irritates the shit out of some not all atheists here in mudcat.

Well that joy doesn't irritate the shit out of me. Who did you have in mind? I'd also like to point out to you that a good deal of insult has been hurled at atheists around here!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:15 PM

"...it goes way beyond dispassionate disbelief."

Indeed....

"...are evangelical, attacking, argumentative atheists processing a signal?"

I suppose they have an internal, self-generated signal. They seem feel that most religious beliefs are an impediment to the basic progress of society, and thus 'need' to be disputed and put down. I see why they think that way... but I also see why believers feel the need to 'witness'. It ain't easy sitting on the fence- it's far easier in some ways to have one clear opinion and shout it loudly... on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:13 PM

Olddude, I have been saying that if you have so little respect for me that you START the conversation by saying that I am delusional and you carry that assumption through the whole conversation, you are not my friend.

One thing that has been true about the Mudcat in the 12 years I have been coming here is that some come here for friendship and others to disrupt.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:58 AM

I could not agree with you more Bill ... I tend to talk to people about a host of things, religion is not something I talk about because I assume it is personal as it it with me. My parents always told me religion and politics always kills friendship. Something few here have learned I guess

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:58 AM

Lets face it Bill. The people here who trash religion have axes to grind far beyond logic.

You don't have to call it religion if you don't want to. But it goes way beyond dispassionate disbelief.

"Off" is not a TV channel because your TV is not processing a signal.

The question is are evangelical, attacking, argumentative atheists processing a signal?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM

Dan... I know that some non-believers are over-reacting because they are reacting to being preached at and warned of the horrors of 'Hell' by over-zealous believers. It does little good, but some people just seem to need to argue and complain - on both sides.
I try to restrain myself and restrict my 'logic' to non-threatening explanations of why I... personally... would prefer people to learn to discuss rather than 'assert'.... on either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

and I know you Bill and you are the kind of person that accepts that others see the math different, and that is ok if they don't agree. My complaint is those always pushing their non beliefs, trashing others on a constant basis. If something works for another, each have the right to respect. When respect breaks down and mockery continues, then conflict and hard feelings occur. Too many years it has been a one sided non ending verbal assault on others beliefs, they are, like me entitled to walk the path of life as they see fit without a certain few atheists trying to "change them" for that is exactly what the anti faith threads are about,   preaching of an opposite belief system

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM

Ho hum. Jim, the only "desperate attempt" going on here is the desperate attempt of a number of disagreeing males to prove that they are right and the other guy is wrong, that they are rational and the other guy is stupid, that they know what they're talking about and the other guy doesn't. A bunch of "right men". To do this, they are willing to spend hours a day blathering on about whatever they think, and denigrating the people they talk to, while barely pausing for a single breath to EVER try and sincerely grasp what it is that the other guy thinks.

For the most part, it's a group orgy of non-listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM

Of course Atheism is not a religion.
But is anyone who hates God really an atheist?


Some people SAY they are atheists then act like God haters.
When you point that out they say that you are "attacking" all of atheism.

Your words are clear enough on the page why don't they see them?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM

one final metaphorical bit of logic. I'll stop now with that type of logic. It's like preaching to the choir anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:34 AM

more logic

Oh sure...I have a real opinion. Atheism is mostly just an attitude. Some just express it louder & more often than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:30 AM

logic

(it's just an interesting cartoon)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:19 AM

"I didn't see Dawkins Ted Talks but I'd like to evaluate them myself rather than have them filtered through prejudicial eyes."

The watch them and judge them before you criticize.

Don't be like us poor prejudiced Christians. Gather some evidence before you open your mouth.

I am just trying to point out that you are every bit as judgmental as any religious person. You keep denying it with your words and proving it with your actions.

Christlike behavior?
Christ pointed out hypocrites on more than one occasion.

He also said pull the log out of your own eye before you point out the speck in other people's eyes. Contrary to your constant assertions. I AM NOT CRITICIZING YOUR BELIEFS. I am criticizing your arguments.

You have firm ground to claim that the preponderance of the evidence points to evolution. Dawkins has done that. But the "there is no such thing as Christian children" meme is just a silly question of semantics and has no basis in logic or science.

It is simply the religious dogma of the cult of Dawkins.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM

I find these arguments somewhat puzzling.
There seems to be a rather desperate attempt by the religious crowd here to prove that atheism is a religion - does that mean that to be 'religious' is a bad thing, or just that it is 'bad' not to ascribe to the same religion as they do - do tell?
Awful lot if semantics around the definition of "religion" here, but "any shore when the boat springs a leak", as they say.
To most of us 'religion' means a belief in bogey men and sky fairies of whatever denomination; anything else falls under the headings, "passion for" or "intense interest in".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:03 AM

No, non-belief in a god is not a religion. It's an assertion...or an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:59 AM

Rudeness is not a one way street. Accusations and judgmental reactionary statements are as rude as anything coming from anyone with objective criticism.

I don't see any Christ-like behavior coming from those proponents who get their back up.

I didn't see Dawkins Ted Talks but I'd like to evaluate them myself rather than have them filtered through prejudicial eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:49 AM

Dawkins is not a Pope. There is his website which attempts to raise money to fight the intolerance in religion by proselytizing their faith that steps on the rights of the secular community. I think that if religionists could not be so defensive and try to shove their ideas down everyone's throats, the problem of anger and hostility could be mollified.

He has every right to express his views on religion without those fanatics who get their back up over any criticism. They can argue their case with less invectives and accusations and perhaps change from fanaticism to reason.

I agree that mocking does nothing to shed light. I think that this is a reactionary mechanism that may be predictably normal but skirts the issue. On the other hand, there are "jokes" that some will find funny, and others not, but if mocking moves in one direction, it's only natural that it will move in the other direction as well.

To restate, those mocking religious accusers will find that their pointed finger leaves three others pointing back at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:40 AM

Dawkins freely admits that he is a militant atheist and that he is evangelizing. If you don't believe me. Watch his Ted Talk.

I will admit that he says these things in a mocking tone. But he says nearly everything in a mocking tone.

>>> but the problem with many religious people is that they sometimes fail to see that the way they execute their worship in their everyday lives often does get in people's faces. Their children's, for example. We live in a world in which there is far too little honesty about this. <<<

No one is educating their children on this forum. No one is executing their worship here. That does not give you an excuse to be rude to the people here.

It is OK to start a thread and talk about these things and deal with them that way. It is NOT OK for you to hop on every discussion about religion piss all over it and change the topic to Beethoven or Football every time you begin to loose the argument that you have prolonged.

We can have a truce over this that pleases everyone. All we have to to is show a little respect. If you can't respect opinions. Try to respect the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:35 AM

These are my comments regarding de Waal's piece.

"Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism? What does atheism have to offer that's worth fighting for?"

Some do, some don't but the fact that many Christians are so intolerant of anyone who calls themselves an atheist and are so insulted personally that they go on a rampage to condemn those with whom they don't agree, become so arrogant in their belief system, this is the real message of the intolerance as it is practiced today by religious people and evidenced by some on Mudcat.

"They speak of "coming out," a terminology borrowed from the gay movement, as if their nonreligiousness was a forbidden secret that they now want to share with the world."

For an self-proclaimed "apathist" this would not be a problem as long as he didn't advertise his non-religiousness widely and for many centuries "atheism" was a forbidden secret. de Waal just had other things to do. You could add to the term "homophobe" and "Islamophobe", "atheo-phobe".

"Dogmatists have one advantage: they are poor listeners."

I agree with this statement. But I think you have to exempt Dawkins from this in that he is a very good listener and hence not a dogmatist.

"I am as sickened as the next person, but if Harris's quest is to show that religion fails to promote morality, why pick on Islam?"

"Certainly "Non-belief in a god" is not a religion. But I don't think anyone in the history of this planet has said that it was."

This is untrue. All these threads generalizing about atheism belies that claim.

The "neo-atheist" canard is a media publicity stunt organized by religious zealots.
Atheists (for lack of a better term) have always been hounded and diced and quartered by religious fanatics who just can't let it alone and feel as though they have been personally attacked which is absurd. They are analogous to the self-styled patriots of the United States who keep attacking anyone that is critical of how US policy is carried out with the slogan "USA! USA!" Their slogan might be "Jesus Saves!" or something like that.

I think this is Harris' weakness. Every religion has its share of equal atrocities.

" Isn't genital mutilation common in the United States, too, where newborn males are routinely circumcised without their consent? We surely don't need to go all the way to Afghanistan to find valleys in the moral landscape."

Yes and this too is a product of religious belief.

"If some religions are worse than others, then some must be better."

I don't subscribe to that theory at all. They are all equally reprehensible.

"Then again, I think this is the first "atheist" thread in quite some time, that may have been actually started by an atheist. I think all the others were started by religious people."

Thanks, Joe. And his statement proves my point. Where is this "humility" that is supposed to be reflective of Christians exemplified in the Beatitudes? You won't find it here
on Mudcat among the judgmental and angry believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

Hubbard started a religion. Dawkins questions why that could happen.

Sorry I can't help you there. If repeatedly pointing out that Dawkins never tries to be an alternative makes me look like his acolyte I suppose I should start a fund to build a church to the bugger.

Sigh. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:30 AM

since there is already a pope Dawkins, next we will see atheist churches going up ... donations welcome. It is all about the money. I am a person of faith, not religion

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:24 AM

L. Ron Hubbard figured out how to turn his sci-fi career into a cash cow by starting his religion ... I see Dawkins the same way. Write something controversial then cash the checks after you get others to hop on board. Only my opinion that I freely offer. Most TV preachers, not all figured it out also how to cash the checks from those who buy into your sermon. Hence I see little difference and call it a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

Well Joe, your faith is a joy to you as it is for us also. But for some reason that joy irritates the shit out of some not all atheists here in mudcat. For some reason they can't say "Hey whatever works for you rock on like we do them" instead it has been 7 years of insults and hate threads. Sooner or later people lose patience with it all

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:07 AM

I have heard more preaching about the non existence of God from them then any Baptist Minister .. hence to me you bet it is a religion ...

Then clearly you hang out in the wrong places.

I don't want to get in anybody else's face about their religion or lack thereof, but then again I don't want anybody to get in MY face about what is sacred to me. Take me for who I am, not for any preconceptions you might have about me.

A perfectly valid sentiment, but the problem with many religious people is that they sometimes fail to see that the way they execute their worship in their everyday lives often does get in people's faces. Their children's, for example. We live in a world in which there is far too little honesty about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:43 AM

"I find it easier to get along with non-religious people online."

Let's look at Georgian Silver's OED definition.
>>>A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion<<<

I think that is partly true for most everyone. It is the religious people, the devoted people who tend not to live and let live.

This thread is just splitting hairs over where the devotion is placed.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:25 AM

"I think all the others were started by religious people wanting to make an issue of it."

I think that most of them, just about all were actually threads mocking the atheist threads or threads highjacked by the Mudcat atheist usual suspects.

Look at gnu's Heaven and Hell thread.

It seems that one cannot bring up a single religious topic on this forum without the usual atheist suspects jumping in and mocking the topic and mocking the person talking about religion.

I see why that is now. The Mudcat atheists usual suspects have invested time and money in anti-christian reading materials and videos, and prepared themselves for ideological battle. Their chosen battleground is this forum. When ever a spark of religion comes up they, like self-appointed Smokey Bears try to stamp it out.

It makes me wonder about this thread. Certainly "Non-belief in a god" is not a religion. But I don't think anyone in the history of this planet has said that it was. It is clear that evangelical atheism can be considered a religion by definitions of religion in to of the English language's foremost dictionaries.

So shall we chase our tails for three or four hundred posts over subtle nuances of semantics or shall we call the point moot?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 08:35 AM

Well Joe, when it comes to intolerance some religions are out there on their own, but to be fair intolerance is a feature of human behaviour - and sometimes an appropriate one.

This is my main issue:
"The problem within democratic/ nearly democratic systems is how do I/we deal with this range of belief when these beliefs are brought into the democratic process? "

I genuinely don't know the answer to this. Some religions cut bits of boys and some off girls. Some treat women and minorities very badly. Some nation states do this also but they can and should be open to democratic change. How do I discuss these issues with people who believe a god had told them to do those things?

I find Dawkins a totally reasonable man - but I would wouldn't I? Have you read the God Delusion? One point he makes is that many 'believers' don't know their own faith and their own Books. It is not uncommon to find catholics who doubt evolution even though their church accepted it years ago. My experience of christians is that many don't know what comes from the Old Testermant and what from the New - and what Jesus is supposed to have said and what Moses is supposed to have said.

Given this confusion can you see that it makes discussions on some issues very difficult?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 06:22 AM

Well, Les, one would think that if certain atheists were not religious about their non-religion, then they could be more tolerant of those that do practice a religion. Most atheists don't make an issue of it, and that's fine - but there are a few.....and Dawkins and Hitchens have been as evangelical and obnoxious and wealthy as the wealthiest and most obnoxious of televangelists.

For me, religion is a personal thing, a source of joy for me. I don't want to get in anybody else's face about their religion or lack thereof, but then again I don't want anybody to get in MY face about what is sacred to me. Take me for who I am, not for any preconceptions you might have about me.

Then again, I think this is the first "atheist" thread in quite some time, that may have been actually started by an atheist. I think all the others were started by religious people wanting to make an issue of it.

For the most part, I find it easier to get along with non-religious people online.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 05:54 AM

So, why are so many religious people on here so keen to denigrate or attack atheism by claiming it's a religion?

Their are many religions on this planet and people can decide to believe pretty well anything they like within each of those relgions. That's really none of my business.

The problem within democratic/ nearly democratic systems is how do I/we deal with this range of belief when these beliefs are brought into the democratic process?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 05:01 AM

Non-belief in a god is not a religion: Spot on!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:37 AM

The trouble with using dictionaries is that words have a nasty habit of changing their meanings over time. The early Christians were thought of as "atheists" because they did not acknowledge the divinity of Caesar, and it was not till the second millenium that priests of the Roman Church were required to be religious, ie members of a religious order.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:23 AM

I think there are several 'classes' of atheists. For example, those who merely do not believe in any God but go about their daily lives without giving it much thought. (I have a very dear friend who falls into this category.) Then there are those who are quite heated about 'religious' folk and despise all believers. These tend to have a dig when they can in order to make their views stridently known. Then there is the militant category, the 'Fundamentalist Atheists', whose aim is to undermine and overcome all religious activity in society, seeing it as harmful and dangerous. These attack by referring to all the sinister and reprehensible events in the history of Religion (of which there are many!) and writing erudite and well-expressed books, or making interesting TV programmes seeking to discredit any or all religions. I uphold the rights of all these groups to express themselves, and (using legal methods) to attack belief-systems of others. In the broad sense, their Atheism is indeed a religion. But in the narrower, more usual understanding of the word, it cannot be seen as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:15 AM

~~**~ sigh ~**~~

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:01 AM

But the Merrion Webster & later-on OED definitions, even if not labelled as such, are metaphorical, can't you see?

I am reminded of a nice bit in David Lodge's 'How Far Can You Go?', a novel about a group of English Roman Catholics living thru the changes in their Church from the 1950s to 80s: the one who has become a nun joins a group of those who try teaching for a bit without wearing the habit to see what effect it has on their relationship with their pupils; so she has to get her hair done. The hairdresser says to her, '"Don't forget to put your hair in curlers ever night. You must remember to do it religiously," she added with out any apparent sense of irony.'

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:21 AM

Definition of religion From the Oxford Dictionary :->>>>>>>>>> the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:
ideas about the relationship between science and religion
[count noun] a particular system of faith and worship:
the world's great religions
[count noun] a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion:
consumerism is the new religion<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>>>>>A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion<<<<< would surely encompass atheism.... It certainly would where a few of my non-Christian friends are concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 01:17 AM

Who are the editors in this place?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 01:16 AM

Correct, it is not a religion......it's a vacuum, trying to get to the center of nothing, because none of it exists....even you.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 01:02 AM

Or pointing out that the Pope does indeed shit in the woods

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 11:12 PM

I get someone knocking at my door usually Mormon about once a year. Doesn't really bother me ...it is their religion. I get atheists here at mudcat about everyday starting threads of religion and in your face preaching on their views of non existence of a creator. So yea to many atheists it is a religion or at least a religious fervor

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:23 PM

That sounds like a nice bumper sticker Olddude.

Picture of Dawkins at an altar,

"If Atheism ain't a religion, then
why do it have so many gold diggin' preachers?"

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:06 PM

Well I try not to make generalities, it is always a mistake. I will say that for some atheists it is indeed a religion. I have heard more preaching about the non existence of God from them then any Baptist Minister .. hence to me you bet it is a religion ... but that does not reflect on every atheist ... like most people of faith do not get into your face but keep their faith to themselves ... however many atheist do like to label and lump all into one general category

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:38 PM

Yeah Steve, Merriam Webster and company is broadening the definition to "goad" atheists.

Frans de Waal, famous atheist and stingsingers favorite author is broadening definitions to "goad atheists".

Oh and by the way, you get upset about this while telling us that you are not an atheist.

Tell us again who is delusional. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:18 PM

While most people associate religion with some type of belief in a god, one of the definitions offered by Merriam Webster is: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. One might say that one's religion is whatever principle they hold most dear and wholeheartedly pursue. Thus it could be the accumulation of wealth, power, or even unbelief.

Well you could say all that, but by so doing you are degrading the sense of "religion" to the point of uselessness. In my experience, people who say that atheism is a religion are doing nothing more than brainlessly trying to goad atheists. Let's get that one out of the way straight away. As for accumulation of wealth or power, etc., well we already have good words for those things. I shall continue to confine my use of the word religion to matters pertaining to the supernatural. In a world of so many available words, it seems useful to keep the sense of this one narrow in its traditional sense. Note that I choose not to lean on a dictionary or on Jack's latest obsession, Franz wotsit, so shoot.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:23 PM

You title is true.

The rest of your post indicates that you are not well read on the subject.

Here is an article with important information.

Has militant atheism become a religion? By Frans de Waal

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:20 PM

While most people associate religion with some type of belief in a god, one of the definitions offered by Merriam Webster is: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. One might say that one's religion is whatever principle they hold most dear and wholeheartedly pursue. Thus it could be the accumulation of wealth, power, or even unbelief.

Subject: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:58 PM

There are attempts by some atheists to make a church out of their beliefs but I don't see that in the books of Harris, Dawkins, even the combative Hitchens or Dennett.

If you actually read their books, you'll find different ideas that are not evangelical in the sense of the Christian use of the term.

Some have harsh criticisms ideas which apparently step on some religious toes but these are more a point of view then an attempt to sway people to believe as they do. Here, I'm referring more to Hitchens than Dawkins and Dennett (who are relatively mild) or Harris (philosophical).


"Atheism" has been redefined by its opponents to be something other than it means originally, a non-belief in a god which is opposite of a religious belief. This has been throughout history found unacceptable by many religious people who for reasons of their intense desire to convert to the point that more people who were called atheists were persecuted for their beliefs more than any religious of those with their "faiths". The reason that these writers won't go away is that there has been injustice and suppression of their ideas and they have a right and a duty to defend them in a free-speech pluralistic society.

But a religious non-believer is an absurdity and an oxymoron.