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BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion

Stringsinger 16 Apr 13 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,Arkie 16 Apr 13 - 06:20 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Apr 13 - 06:23 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Apr 13 - 09:18 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Apr 13 - 09:38 PM
olddude 16 Apr 13 - 10:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Apr 13 - 10:23 PM
olddude 16 Apr 13 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 17 Apr 13 - 01:02 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Apr 13 - 01:16 AM
michaelr 17 Apr 13 - 01:17 AM
Georgiansilver 17 Apr 13 - 02:21 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Apr 13 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Apr 13 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Eliza 17 Apr 13 - 04:23 AM
Dave MacKenzie 17 Apr 13 - 04:37 AM
Mr Happy 17 Apr 13 - 05:01 AM
Les in Chorlton 17 Apr 13 - 05:54 AM
Joe Offer 17 Apr 13 - 06:22 AM
Les in Chorlton 17 Apr 13 - 08:35 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Apr 13 - 09:25 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Apr 13 - 09:43 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Apr 13 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,olddude 17 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,olddude 17 Apr 13 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,olddude 17 Apr 13 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 17 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM
Stringsinger 17 Apr 13 - 10:35 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Apr 13 - 10:40 AM
Stringsinger 17 Apr 13 - 10:49 AM
Stringsinger 17 Apr 13 - 10:59 AM
Little Hawk 17 Apr 13 - 11:03 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Apr 13 - 11:19 AM
Bill D 17 Apr 13 - 11:30 AM
Bill D 17 Apr 13 - 11:34 AM
Bill D 17 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM
Little Hawk 17 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,olddude 17 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM
Bill D 17 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Apr 13 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,olddude 17 Apr 13 - 11:58 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Apr 13 - 12:13 PM
Bill D 17 Apr 13 - 12:15 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Apr 13 - 02:04 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Apr 13 - 02:18 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Apr 13 - 02:23 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM

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Subject: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:58 PM

There are attempts by some atheists to make a church out of their beliefs but I don't see that in the books of Harris, Dawkins, even the combative Hitchens or Dennett.

If you actually read their books, you'll find different ideas that are not evangelical in the sense of the Christian use of the term.

Some have harsh criticisms ideas which apparently step on some religious toes but these are more a point of view then an attempt to sway people to believe as they do. Here, I'm referring more to Hitchens than Dawkins and Dennett (who are relatively mild) or Harris (philosophical).


"Atheism" has been redefined by its opponents to be something other than it means originally, a non-belief in a god which is opposite of a religious belief. This has been throughout history found unacceptable by many religious people who for reasons of their intense desire to convert to the point that more people who were called atheists were persecuted for their beliefs more than any religious of those with their "faiths". The reason that these writers won't go away is that there has been injustice and suppression of their ideas and they have a right and a duty to defend them in a free-speech pluralistic society.

But a religious non-believer is an absurdity and an oxymoron.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:20 PM

While most people associate religion with some type of belief in a god, one of the definitions offered by Merriam Webster is: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. One might say that one's religion is whatever principle they hold most dear and wholeheartedly pursue. Thus it could be the accumulation of wealth, power, or even unbelief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:23 PM

You title is true.

The rest of your post indicates that you are not well read on the subject.

Here is an article with important information.

Has militant atheism become a religion? By Frans de Waal


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:18 PM

While most people associate religion with some type of belief in a god, one of the definitions offered by Merriam Webster is: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. One might say that one's religion is whatever principle they hold most dear and wholeheartedly pursue. Thus it could be the accumulation of wealth, power, or even unbelief.

Well you could say all that, but by so doing you are degrading the sense of "religion" to the point of uselessness. In my experience, people who say that atheism is a religion are doing nothing more than brainlessly trying to goad atheists. Let's get that one out of the way straight away. As for accumulation of wealth or power, etc., well we already have good words for those things. I shall continue to confine my use of the word religion to matters pertaining to the supernatural. In a world of so many available words, it seems useful to keep the sense of this one narrow in its traditional sense. Note that I choose not to lean on a dictionary or on Jack's latest obsession, Franz wotsit, so shoot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:38 PM

Yeah Steve, Merriam Webster and company is broadening the definition to "goad" atheists.

Frans de Waal, famous atheist and stingsingers favorite author is broadening definitions to "goad atheists".

Oh and by the way, you get upset about this while telling us that you are not an atheist.

Tell us again who is delusional. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:06 PM

Well I try not to make generalities, it is always a mistake. I will say that for some atheists it is indeed a religion. I have heard more preaching about the non existence of God from them then any Baptist Minister .. hence to me you bet it is a religion ... but that does not reflect on every atheist ... like most people of faith do not get into your face but keep their faith to themselves ... however many atheist do like to label and lump all into one general category


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:23 PM

That sounds like a nice bumper sticker Olddude.

Picture of Dawkins at an altar,

"If Atheism ain't a religion, then
why do it have so many gold diggin' preachers?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 11:12 PM

I get someone knocking at my door usually Mormon about once a year. Doesn't really bother me ...it is their religion. I get atheists here at mudcat about everyday starting threads of religion and in your face preaching on their views of non existence of a creator. So yea to many atheists it is a religion or at least a religious fervor


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 01:02 AM

Or pointing out that the Pope does indeed shit in the woods


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 01:16 AM

Correct, it is not a religion......it's a vacuum, trying to get to the center of nothing, because none of it exists....even you.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 01:17 AM

Who are the editors in this place?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:21 AM

Definition of religion From the Oxford Dictionary :->>>>>>>>>> the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:
ideas about the relationship between science and religion
[count noun] a particular system of faith and worship:
the world's great religions
[count noun] a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion:
consumerism is the new religion<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>>>>>A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion<<<<< would surely encompass atheism.... It certainly would where a few of my non-Christian friends are concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:01 AM

But the Merrion Webster & later-on OED definitions, even if not labelled as such, are metaphorical, can't you see?

I am reminded of a nice bit in David Lodge's 'How Far Can You Go?', a novel about a group of English Roman Catholics living thru the changes in their Church from the 1950s to 80s: the one who has become a nun joins a group of those who try teaching for a bit without wearing the habit to see what effect it has on their relationship with their pupils; so she has to get her hair done. The hairdresser says to her, '"Don't forget to put your hair in curlers ever night. You must remember to do it religiously," she added with out any apparent sense of irony.'

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:15 AM

~~**~ sigh ~**~~

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:23 AM

I think there are several 'classes' of atheists. For example, those who merely do not believe in any God but go about their daily lives without giving it much thought. (I have a very dear friend who falls into this category.) Then there are those who are quite heated about 'religious' folk and despise all believers. These tend to have a dig when they can in order to make their views stridently known. Then there is the militant category, the 'Fundamentalist Atheists', whose aim is to undermine and overcome all religious activity in society, seeing it as harmful and dangerous. These attack by referring to all the sinister and reprehensible events in the history of Religion (of which there are many!) and writing erudite and well-expressed books, or making interesting TV programmes seeking to discredit any or all religions. I uphold the rights of all these groups to express themselves, and (using legal methods) to attack belief-systems of others. In the broad sense, their Atheism is indeed a religion. But in the narrower, more usual understanding of the word, it cannot be seen as such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:37 AM

The trouble with using dictionaries is that words have a nasty habit of changing their meanings over time. The early Christians were thought of as "atheists" because they did not acknowledge the divinity of Caesar, and it was not till the second millenium that priests of the Roman Church were required to be religious, ie members of a religious order.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 05:01 AM

Non-belief in a god is not a religion: Spot on!


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 05:54 AM

So, why are so many religious people on here so keen to denigrate or attack atheism by claiming it's a religion?

Their are many religions on this planet and people can decide to believe pretty well anything they like within each of those relgions. That's really none of my business.

The problem within democratic/ nearly democratic systems is how do I/we deal with this range of belief when these beliefs are brought into the democratic process?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 06:22 AM

Well, Les, one would think that if certain atheists were not religious about their non-religion, then they could be more tolerant of those that do practice a religion. Most atheists don't make an issue of it, and that's fine - but there are a few.....and Dawkins and Hitchens have been as evangelical and obnoxious and wealthy as the wealthiest and most obnoxious of televangelists.

For me, religion is a personal thing, a source of joy for me. I don't want to get in anybody else's face about their religion or lack thereof, but then again I don't want anybody to get in MY face about what is sacred to me. Take me for who I am, not for any preconceptions you might have about me.

Then again, I think this is the first "atheist" thread in quite some time, that may have been actually started by an atheist. I think all the others were started by religious people wanting to make an issue of it.

For the most part, I find it easier to get along with non-religious people online.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 08:35 AM

Well Joe, when it comes to intolerance some religions are out there on their own, but to be fair intolerance is a feature of human behaviour - and sometimes an appropriate one.

This is my main issue:
"The problem within democratic/ nearly democratic systems is how do I/we deal with this range of belief when these beliefs are brought into the democratic process? "

I genuinely don't know the answer to this. Some religions cut bits of boys and some off girls. Some treat women and minorities very badly. Some nation states do this also but they can and should be open to democratic change. How do I discuss these issues with people who believe a god had told them to do those things?

I find Dawkins a totally reasonable man - but I would wouldn't I? Have you read the God Delusion? One point he makes is that many 'believers' don't know their own faith and their own Books. It is not uncommon to find catholics who doubt evolution even though their church accepted it years ago. My experience of christians is that many don't know what comes from the Old Testermant and what from the New - and what Jesus is supposed to have said and what Moses is supposed to have said.

Given this confusion can you see that it makes discussions on some issues very difficult?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:25 AM

"I think all the others were started by religious people wanting to make an issue of it."

I think that most of them, just about all were actually threads mocking the atheist threads or threads highjacked by the Mudcat atheist usual suspects.

Look at gnu's Heaven and Hell thread.

It seems that one cannot bring up a single religious topic on this forum without the usual atheist suspects jumping in and mocking the topic and mocking the person talking about religion.

I see why that is now. The Mudcat atheists usual suspects have invested time and money in anti-christian reading materials and videos, and prepared themselves for ideological battle. Their chosen battleground is this forum. When ever a spark of religion comes up they, like self-appointed Smokey Bears try to stamp it out.

It makes me wonder about this thread. Certainly "Non-belief in a god" is not a religion. But I don't think anyone in the history of this planet has said that it was. It is clear that evangelical atheism can be considered a religion by definitions of religion in to of the English language's foremost dictionaries.

So shall we chase our tails for three or four hundred posts over subtle nuances of semantics or shall we call the point moot?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:43 AM

"I find it easier to get along with non-religious people online."

Let's look at Georgian Silver's OED definition.
>>>A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion<<<

I think that is partly true for most everyone. It is the religious people, the devoted people who tend not to live and let live.

This thread is just splitting hairs over where the devotion is placed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:07 AM

I have heard more preaching about the non existence of God from them then any Baptist Minister .. hence to me you bet it is a religion ...

Then clearly you hang out in the wrong places.

I don't want to get in anybody else's face about their religion or lack thereof, but then again I don't want anybody to get in MY face about what is sacred to me. Take me for who I am, not for any preconceptions you might have about me.

A perfectly valid sentiment, but the problem with many religious people is that they sometimes fail to see that the way they execute their worship in their everyday lives often does get in people's faces. Their children's, for example. We live in a world in which there is far too little honesty about this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

Well Joe, your faith is a joy to you as it is for us also. But for some reason that joy irritates the shit out of some not all atheists here in mudcat. For some reason they can't say "Hey whatever works for you rock on like we do them" instead it has been 7 years of insults and hate threads. Sooner or later people lose patience with it all


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:24 AM

L. Ron Hubbard figured out how to turn his sci-fi career into a cash cow by starting his religion ... I see Dawkins the same way. Write something controversial then cash the checks after you get others to hop on board. Only my opinion that I freely offer. Most TV preachers, not all figured it out also how to cash the checks from those who buy into your sermon. Hence I see little difference and call it a religion


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:30 AM

since there is already a pope Dawkins, next we will see atheist churches going up ... donations welcome. It is all about the money. I am a person of faith, not religion


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

Hubbard started a religion. Dawkins questions why that could happen.

Sorry I can't help you there. If repeatedly pointing out that Dawkins never tries to be an alternative makes me look like his acolyte I suppose I should start a fund to build a church to the bugger.

Sigh. ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:35 AM

These are my comments regarding de Waal's piece.

"Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism? What does atheism have to offer that's worth fighting for?"

Some do, some don't but the fact that many Christians are so intolerant of anyone who calls themselves an atheist and are so insulted personally that they go on a rampage to condemn those with whom they don't agree, become so arrogant in their belief system, this is the real message of the intolerance as it is practiced today by religious people and evidenced by some on Mudcat.

"They speak of "coming out," a terminology borrowed from the gay movement, as if their nonreligiousness was a forbidden secret that they now want to share with the world."

For an self-proclaimed "apathist" this would not be a problem as long as he didn't advertise his non-religiousness widely and for many centuries "atheism" was a forbidden secret. de Waal just had other things to do. You could add to the term "homophobe" and "Islamophobe", "atheo-phobe".

"Dogmatists have one advantage: they are poor listeners."

I agree with this statement. But I think you have to exempt Dawkins from this in that he is a very good listener and hence not a dogmatist.

"I am as sickened as the next person, but if Harris's quest is to show that religion fails to promote morality, why pick on Islam?"

"Certainly "Non-belief in a god" is not a religion. But I don't think anyone in the history of this planet has said that it was."

This is untrue. All these threads generalizing about atheism belies that claim.

The "neo-atheist" canard is a media publicity stunt organized by religious zealots.
Atheists (for lack of a better term) have always been hounded and diced and quartered by religious fanatics who just can't let it alone and feel as though they have been personally attacked which is absurd. They are analogous to the self-styled patriots of the United States who keep attacking anyone that is critical of how US policy is carried out with the slogan "USA! USA!" Their slogan might be "Jesus Saves!" or something like that.

I think this is Harris' weakness. Every religion has its share of equal atrocities.

" Isn't genital mutilation common in the United States, too, where newborn males are routinely circumcised without their consent? We surely don't need to go all the way to Afghanistan to find valleys in the moral landscape."

Yes and this too is a product of religious belief.

"If some religions are worse than others, then some must be better."

I don't subscribe to that theory at all. They are all equally reprehensible.

"Then again, I think this is the first "atheist" thread in quite some time, that may have been actually started by an atheist. I think all the others were started by religious people."

Thanks, Joe. And his statement proves my point. Where is this "humility" that is supposed to be reflective of Christians exemplified in the Beatitudes? You won't find it here
on Mudcat among the judgmental and angry believers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:40 AM

Dawkins freely admits that he is a militant atheist and that he is evangelizing. If you don't believe me. Watch his Ted Talk.

I will admit that he says these things in a mocking tone. But he says nearly everything in a mocking tone.

>>> but the problem with many religious people is that they sometimes fail to see that the way they execute their worship in their everyday lives often does get in people's faces. Their children's, for example. We live in a world in which there is far too little honesty about this. <<<

No one is educating their children on this forum. No one is executing their worship here. That does not give you an excuse to be rude to the people here.

It is OK to start a thread and talk about these things and deal with them that way. It is NOT OK for you to hop on every discussion about religion piss all over it and change the topic to Beethoven or Football every time you begin to loose the argument that you have prolonged.

We can have a truce over this that pleases everyone. All we have to to is show a little respect. If you can't respect opinions. Try to respect the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:49 AM

Dawkins is not a Pope. There is his website which attempts to raise money to fight the intolerance in religion by proselytizing their faith that steps on the rights of the secular community. I think that if religionists could not be so defensive and try to shove their ideas down everyone's throats, the problem of anger and hostility could be mollified.

He has every right to express his views on religion without those fanatics who get their back up over any criticism. They can argue their case with less invectives and accusations and perhaps change from fanaticism to reason.

I agree that mocking does nothing to shed light. I think that this is a reactionary mechanism that may be predictably normal but skirts the issue. On the other hand, there are "jokes" that some will find funny, and others not, but if mocking moves in one direction, it's only natural that it will move in the other direction as well.

To restate, those mocking religious accusers will find that their pointed finger leaves three others pointing back at them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:59 AM

Rudeness is not a one way street. Accusations and judgmental reactionary statements are as rude as anything coming from anyone with objective criticism.

I don't see any Christ-like behavior coming from those proponents who get their back up.

I didn't see Dawkins Ted Talks but I'd like to evaluate them myself rather than have them filtered through prejudicial eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:03 AM

No, non-belief in a god is not a religion. It's an assertion...or an opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM

I find these arguments somewhat puzzling.
There seems to be a rather desperate attempt by the religious crowd here to prove that atheism is a religion - does that mean that to be 'religious' is a bad thing, or just that it is 'bad' not to ascribe to the same religion as they do - do tell?
Awful lot if semantics around the definition of "religion" here, but "any shore when the boat springs a leak", as they say.
To most of us 'religion' means a belief in bogey men and sky fairies of whatever denomination; anything else falls under the headings, "passion for" or "intense interest in".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:19 AM

"I didn't see Dawkins Ted Talks but I'd like to evaluate them myself rather than have them filtered through prejudicial eyes."

The watch them and judge them before you criticize.

Don't be like us poor prejudiced Christians. Gather some evidence before you open your mouth.

I am just trying to point out that you are every bit as judgmental as any religious person. You keep denying it with your words and proving it with your actions.

Christlike behavior?
Christ pointed out hypocrites on more than one occasion.

He also said pull the log out of your own eye before you point out the speck in other people's eyes. Contrary to your constant assertions. I AM NOT CRITICIZING YOUR BELIEFS. I am criticizing your arguments.

You have firm ground to claim that the preponderance of the evidence points to evolution. Dawkins has done that. But the "there is no such thing as Christian children" meme is just a silly question of semantics and has no basis in logic or science.

It is simply the religious dogma of the cult of Dawkins.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:30 AM

logic

(it's just an interesting cartoon)


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:34 AM

more logic

Oh sure...I have a real opinion. Atheism is mostly just an attitude. Some just express it louder & more often than others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM

one final metaphorical bit of logic. I'll stop now with that type of logic. It's like preaching to the choir anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM

Of course Atheism is not a religion.
But is anyone who hates God really an atheist?


Some people SAY they are atheists then act like God haters.
When you point that out they say that you are "attacking" all of atheism.

Your words are clear enough on the page why don't they see them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM

Ho hum. Jim, the only "desperate attempt" going on here is the desperate attempt of a number of disagreeing males to prove that they are right and the other guy is wrong, that they are rational and the other guy is stupid, that they know what they're talking about and the other guy doesn't. A bunch of "right men". To do this, they are willing to spend hours a day blathering on about whatever they think, and denigrating the people they talk to, while barely pausing for a single breath to EVER try and sincerely grasp what it is that the other guy thinks.

For the most part, it's a group orgy of non-listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

and I know you Bill and you are the kind of person that accepts that others see the math different, and that is ok if they don't agree. My complaint is those always pushing their non beliefs, trashing others on a constant basis. If something works for another, each have the right to respect. When respect breaks down and mockery continues, then conflict and hard feelings occur. Too many years it has been a one sided non ending verbal assault on others beliefs, they are, like me entitled to walk the path of life as they see fit without a certain few atheists trying to "change them" for that is exactly what the anti faith threads are about,   preaching of an opposite belief system


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM

Dan... I know that some non-believers are over-reacting because they are reacting to being preached at and warned of the horrors of 'Hell' by over-zealous believers. It does little good, but some people just seem to need to argue and complain - on both sides.
I try to restrain myself and restrict my 'logic' to non-threatening explanations of why I... personally... would prefer people to learn to discuss rather than 'assert'.... on either side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:58 AM

Lets face it Bill. The people here who trash religion have axes to grind far beyond logic.

You don't have to call it religion if you don't want to. But it goes way beyond dispassionate disbelief.

"Off" is not a TV channel because your TV is not processing a signal.

The question is are evangelical, attacking, argumentative atheists processing a signal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:58 AM

I could not agree with you more Bill ... I tend to talk to people about a host of things, religion is not something I talk about because I assume it is personal as it it with me. My parents always told me religion and politics always kills friendship. Something few here have learned I guess


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:13 PM

Olddude, I have been saying that if you have so little respect for me that you START the conversation by saying that I am delusional and you carry that assumption through the whole conversation, you are not my friend.

One thing that has been true about the Mudcat in the 12 years I have been coming here is that some come here for friendship and others to disrupt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:15 PM

"...it goes way beyond dispassionate disbelief."

Indeed....

"...are evangelical, attacking, argumentative atheists processing a signal?"

I suppose they have an internal, self-generated signal. They seem feel that most religious beliefs are an impediment to the basic progress of society, and thus 'need' to be disputed and put down. I see why they think that way... but I also see why believers feel the need to 'witness'. It ain't easy sitting on the fence- it's far easier in some ways to have one clear opinion and shout it loudly... on both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:04 PM

But for some reason that joy irritates the shit out of some not all atheists here in mudcat.

Well that joy doesn't irritate the shit out of me. Who did you have in mind? I'd also like to point out to you that a good deal of insult has been hurled at atheists around here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:18 PM

"a good deal of insult has been hurled at atheists around here!"

But not for being atheists. You have to keep in mind that when you are being both an atheist and a jerk its not the atheism that people notice.

Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins. But are outspoken champions of atheism both try to undermine religious paradigms using arguments that start with science.

De Waal sticks to the science and doesn't unscientifically call anyone "delusional."

Dawkins draws a confrontational line in the sand by starting the debate questioning his opponents' mental health.

One is inviting insults, the other is not.

Bill D does not get insulted and you do. Bill is as much an unbeliever in religion as you. But Bill does not hate God as you do. Bill does not take it to the level of religion. You do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:23 PM

I think there are several 'classes' of atheists. For example, those who merely do not believe in any God but go about their daily lives without giving it much thought. (I have a very dear friend who falls into this category.) Then there are those who are quite heated about 'religious' folk and despise all believers. These tend to have a dig when they can in order to make their views stridently known. Then there is the militant category, the 'Fundamentalist Atheists', whose aim is to undermine and overcome all religious activity in society, seeing it as harmful and dangerous.

Well I'm none of those. I'm one of those who never mentions atheism unless someone else brings it up in threads or somewhere else. But once I get involved in talking about the delusion of belief then I shall continue to put forward my forthright and honest views in as direct a way as I can muster until the whole thing flags and sinks from the general consciousness. I do think about it quite a lot, unlike your couldn't-care-less class. I'm never heated, always ice-cool and I don't despise anyone. And there really is no such thing as a fundamentalist atheist. There is literally nothing to get fundamentalist about. I've defended some religious activities that yield benign results. I don't see all religious activity as dangerous, though some undoubtedly is, 9-11 for example (a million Iraqis and Afghans would certainly agree, on top of the families of the people killed in New York). Harmful? Not necessarily, if you keep it to yourself as a crutch for your personal morality (though why you think you need that is beyond me). But harmful to kids who are lied to, told that myth is truth? Quite possibly, I should think. Categories are a bit too black and white for my taste, I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

Bill D does not get insulted and you do.

Ask him. In any case, do I get a little whiff from this that you think insulting me is somehow justified?

Bill is as much an unbeliever in religion as you.

I am not an unbeliever in anything, especially religion, whose existence I can hardly deny.

But Bill does not hate God as you do.

How can I hate a thing that I have discerned exists, almost certainly, only in the imaginations of a certain kind of person, and who represents a notion that has no influence on the way I live my life? Do you think I have time and energy to waste hating that? I think not.

Bill does not take it to the level of religion. You do.

Neither Bill nor I do any such thing. Goad away, Mr Parrot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM

"Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins"
You people really are something else
What you seem to be objecting to is that Dawkins and de Waal are indulging in something that happens in every pulpit in every country in the world where religion is practiced - the difference being that up to comparatively recently it was compulsory for the vast majority of believers to attend these gatherings on the threat of public humiliation and even physical violence (one of our elderly singer friends has spent her life with a burst eardrum from a blow administered by a priest for attending a dance that went on past midnight, into Sunday morning).
It doesn't auger well for the rest of us if you evangelical inquisitors ever manage to get a voice in the world.
I don't attend church - feel free not to listen to Dawkins or de Waal if you don't wish to.
I've just realised that, despite my father's experiences at the hands of the church, had I written something like "sky fairies and bogey men" while he was alive, as I did above, I wouldn't have been able to sit down for a week.
I was taught tolerance, a fact which stood me good stead when I started recording singers in Ireland thirty odd years ago. Many of the people we met were devout Christians who never have dreamed of questioning or interfering with our beliefs (or non-beliefs, as you bigots would describe them".      
I get on fine with my Christian neighbours, but when you religious, bullying (not to mention deeply dishonest) fanatics get going it really gets to me.
You need to get into your thick, superstition-riddled skulls that some of the most viciously bloodshed in the world today is done in the name of God, or Allah, or Jehovah, or whatever brand you care to label your toxic product - religious persecution nowadays means persecution by the religious.
Should this planet ever get itself into a major war again it is quite likely to be a 'Holy' one.
How about a little tolerance, love and understanding yourself, eh lads

Jim Carroll


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