BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:04 PM

I think that you have to keep in mind that the media, in the USA and the Commonwealth at least, loves a conflict. They tend to publish the most controversial things and ignore reasonable people and people of peace.

That is why Pat Robertson gets all the ink that he does and some one like Charles Stanley does not.

That is why Dawkins gets heavy coverage wherever he goes and other zoologists do not and anti-religionists do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:46 AM

Stringsinger says: What's to respect here (with christianity)?

I would expect that all persons should be respected, regardless of what they believe. There are assholes in all aspects of life, including those who claim to follow relious teachings and those who take an opposing view. I even know a few scientists whom I would say are assholes, but it does not mean I don't respect science.

Why would anyone promote the idea that a double standard should be used?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:40 AM

""Is the persuit of a good scotch a religion?""

Only if you are doing it outside the territorial boundaries of Bonny Scotland, when it becomes a Pilgrimage.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM

""Why is it that Christians preach peace and love and behave abominably by accusations,recriminations, nasty comments and aggressively violent words? What's to respect here?""


On a similar thought, why does the USA and it's citizens preach a respect for democracy and behave in such as ant-democratic way when it comes to the asperation of other countries? Does this mean that democracy itself, the USA or even all Americans are nasty and bad? Or, does it mean something else?


On a related thought, is it the alcohol that is the villian, or the opeople who abuse it?

alcohol and agression

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM

Ed T says

"Is the persuit of a good scotch a religion?"

according to the OED, if it is done with great devotion, I guess it is.

>>A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion<<

As I said before though, I would not use the word "religion" to describe Atheism. So obviously I would not us "religion" to describe Whiskyism. But I do think that the behavior of strong adherents to any cause can be very similar to that of the worst of religious people.

The defense of certain definitions of folk music is not a religion. But it can seem that it is reading many posts above the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:22 AM

MtheGM


I wasn't talking about this thread I was talking about "debating" while expressing the assumption that the other party is stupid or insane. The word he inaccurately uses and wrongly defends is delusional.

MtheGM, I thought you had I had this discussion already. Didn't you and I agree that there was no way to describe someone as delusional without it being a put down? Bill D manages to get his point across without the verbal put downs. So does de Waal.

Steve Shaw, and Dawkins use verbal put downs because their purpose is not to get their point across but to anger people and start a shouting match.

If you don't think rude is the right word. Choose another. But that is what is happening. That is what I am talking about.

"The God Delusion" is part of the dogma of Dawkins. Maybe being someone who spreads his words is not part of a religion. But the are using dogma. Whether that dogma is religious or not. It is used to reinforce as specific illogical, divisive belief and it is defended by people like Steve Shaw as if it were Gospel.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:21 AM

Is the persuit of a good scotch a religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM

The conspicuous threads on Mudcat support Steve Shaws contention that there are those who are trying to bait atheists.

The Crusade Brigade is essentially going after non-believers who have written books expressing their ideas. These are in no way "new Atheists" since non-belief has been around for as long as Hypatia was murdered by a Christian mob. The only main thing these books on non-belief have in common is a sharing of non-belief and a willingness to express reasons why. Therefore the Crusade Brigade have enmity for these ideas and start propaganda crusades about how atheists are this and that. When they throw their brickbats, they are like the schoolyard bully who claims "self defense".

Regarding de Waal, it is prudent of him not to get mixed up in a religious debate. He could lose funding, whereas Dawkins is from England and doesn't have to worry about expressing his ideas.

There are certain ideas that should not be respected. Certain ways that religion is practiced by the Crusade Brigade trashing "atheists". Religion has been the rationale for the subjugation of women, disregard for their reproductive rights, making them second class citizens in a Christian Man's world, "sons of Ham" being used to justify slavery,
bible verses on gun barrels in the US military, religious burquas and honor killings,
oppression of Palestinians by Christo- Zionazis, the trashing of evolutionary science by creationists..........none of these things should be respected. These are far worse than someone's idea of "rudeness".

I agree with Jim Carroll and wonder at the "militant new Christians" that picture Jesus with an AK 47. :)

Why is it that Christians preach peace and love and behave abominably by accusations,
recriminations, nasty comments and aggressively violent words? What's to respect here?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:14 AM

I oft ponder the Numinous, thrilled that there might be More Things in Heaven & Earth after all, but as to what that might be... well, I've no more grasp of that than our kitchen slugs have of the goings on in The Trafford Centre. There is enough (and more) to enthral me in the human world & the material realms of nature we inhabit and once dared personified in terms of Myth - which is how (I dare say) we conceived the rotten God-concept in the first place. Not one of our better ideas - along with Fascism, Communism, Nuclear Power, Conservatism, Folk Music, Morris Dancing and Clackers...

They say we can't uninvent things - and that those who do not remember the mistakes of the past are condemned to repeat them - but what we can do is live in hope for a more inclusive world-view predicated on the common, the falsifiable, the corporeal & the pragmatic rather than the lingering residue of a few bad trips our ancestors once had whilst off their heads on too much Psilocybe semilanceata during a solar-eclipse and so bowed their heads in terror of the unknown.

Thing is, we know it now; we even know that the stuff we don't know isn't going to be too dissimilar to the stuff we do. I dare say Stonehenge was built in the same spirit as as the Large Hadron Collider - to test a theory of what already suspected was true anyway. And so wonder recommences with every step we take towards the light, leaving our God concepts and Religions to slowly rot away in the realms of ignorance and superstition.

Non-belief in God is to embrace the truly awesome wonderment of universal mystery during the brief time we have the chance to do so. Pondering Theology can be great fun - like pondering Myth & Folklore, none of which is actually true, but nevertheless tells us something about the sort of beings we are and the sort of journey we've had in getting to where we are today. To take such things literally is, I fear, not just to them a considerable disservice, but also ourselves, and (perhaps most importantly) our children by clouding their innocent brains with the darkness of an ancestral ignorance that has no more 'reality' than Quatermass or the Cybermen, and a good deal less entertainment value to boot.

Much joy comes from KNOWING we're all in this together; but what possible satisfaction can there be in the delusion that those who don't agree with you will be spending an eternity in hell for the simple fact of being human?

*

(Apologies for the above - I'm still ill. This morning I felt so bad I spent 80 minutes watching the 4 episodes of Attack of the Cybermen on YouTube. Did it help? Like shite it did, although the Radiophonic Approximation of the Steptoe & Son theme some 12 minutes into the first episode did me smile. Check it out, though if you're pre-disposed to a literal fear of man-made demons then maybe you'd better not, although back in the day I recall a fair few daring to perceive a measure of the numinous in the global endowments of Perpugilliam Brown...   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGZQg7rdc8s)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:01 AM

Jack:

The question "Can you be religious without believing in God" is just as ambiguous, and for the same reasons, as the question "Is there a God?".

Cf., "Can you be religious without believing in ferglebothams?" (to which some will reply, "absolutely not!").

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:02 AM

Snail ~~ I have not always seen i2i with Steve on all topics, and occasionally we have addressed one another in not entirely cordial tones. But I don't remember an instance of what one could reasonably call 'rudeness' occurring [unlike a nasty little person called 'Lox' IIRC, who seems to have left us a while since, who once took against me for some unspecified reason & took to accusing me of wearing an ill-fitting colostomy bag - which I don't, but even if I did (Nice casuistic point ~ would it have been more rude if it were true or if it were not?)]....

In any event, I took it we were talking particularly of this thread, where Jack had written ~~

"Fact: Bill does not insult anyone.
Fact: People do not insult insult Bill
Fact: Steve Shaw is snarky and insulting
Fact: Steve Shaw gets insulted"

··· inaccurately & invidiously IMO.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM

MtheGM
"But I can't recall a single case where he [Steve Shaw] has been what I feel can reasonably be called 'rude'."

Not my experience.

Well, I have this weakness, you see, Snail. I don't mind someone giving me a lusty argument or even telling me that I'm deluded (though I do like to have their reason for thinking it). But when someone constantly nit-picks because of some wacky secret agenda they appear to have (let's call it "a chip on the shoulder"), or misrepresents what I've said in order to have a go, I bite back. If I think you're being silly there is a severe risk that I might tell you so (and I expect the same back). The thing is, I type my posts carefully and review them thoroughly before hitting send. If you want to have a bash at something I've said, but you seem not to be applying similar rigour, then you've got it coming. I haven't got all day to be tirelessly diplomatic with someone for whom that approach doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:19 AM

I personally suspect that the reason the terms have not been defined is because there cannot be a common definition for a phenomenon which is entirely personal. The idea of insisting on an "objective" definition for something that is only found in the subjective universe of one individual at a time is ludicrous on the face of it.

I agree with this. But I don't think it's what causes the problem. Religion is the default position in much of world (certainly in the US, the UK and most of Europe, Africa and Latin America). Religious buildings advertise their faith large and loud (literally loud at times, what with calls to prayer and those lovely jangling bells). Archbishops are embedded in politics. No-one raises an eyebrow at the religionification (I just made that up) of Christmas. I've been to many a wedding and funeral and no-one gives the slightest consideration to the fact that the overtly religious content of the services might sit badly with any atheists present (failure to join in with the lusty hymn-singing can't half make you look a bit of a twat). It isn't thought odd that children scarcely out of their nappies are told to believe that myth is truth (and no more disingenuous comparisons with Santa or tooth fairies, please). A lot of it is more amusing/irritating than important, but the principle is that religion holds sway. It doesn't matter what shape your personal deity takes (Jaysus, given a broad enough definition, I might even have one meself), but you can bank on your religion of choice (or birth, more likely) to megaphone it from the rooftops for you. That's the issue, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:33 AM

I think I'm with Joe on this one.

Although not an atheist, I do find those who are easier to talk to.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:29 AM

""You have to keep in mind that when you are being both an atheist and a jerk its not the atheism that people notice.""


"If a man fools you once, he's a jerk. If he fools you twice, you're a jerk." Proverb

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:16 AM

""Of course Atheism is not a religion.
But is anyone who hates God really an atheist?


Some people SAY they are atheists then act like God haters.
When you point that out they say that you are "attacking" all of atheism.""

Atheists don't hate God!! How can anyone hate something which he doesn't believe exists?

When it comes to hatred, it seems to be a primary emotion of the religious, applied to the deities of other religions and of course to atheists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:59 AM

MtheGM
But I can't recall a single case where he [Steve Shaw] has been what I feel can reasonably be called 'rude'.

Not my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:54 AM

""It seems that one cannot bring up a single religious topic on this forum without the usual atheist suspects jumping in and mocking the topic and mocking the person talking about religion.""

Nor without the usual suspect from the other side of the fence jumping in, either to profess righteous indignation at the insult of hearing the word "delusion" expressed as the opinion of an atheist, or to claim that ""the usual atheist suspects"" are religiously evangelising and trying to force a change of opinion on him, which they patently are not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:59 AM

Anyhow, re 'rude': I honestly can't see where Steve has been so. He has stated his case, with which

[along with Jim ~~ blimey, that doesn't happen that often: this is thread I shall remember!]

I entirely concur, with the sort of vehemence and emphasis of the sort usual for Mudcatters to fight their corners ~~ all power to him. But I can't recall a single case where he has been what I feel can reasonably be called 'rude'. In particular, I note that, like me, he avoids the use of what Aunt Edna would have called 'rude words' ~~ unlike an awful lot of people on this forum (which, as I have said before, is IMO a principal one of the unfortunate detractions from both its quality and its effect).

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:04 AM

"No, I am saying that de Waal and Dawkins are doing the same thing but De Waal is not being rude and Dawkins is"
Rude - oh dear!
Up to relatively recently religion held sway - it was part of our upbringing/brainwashing from the day we entered school - the Jesuits boasted of the lifelong effect they would have if given access to the mind of a child early enough.
It is an appalling fact that it has taken revelations of the widespread and long term rape of children for that grip to have been loosened.
Recently the slave-like conditions in the Magdalene Laundries has been added to the list of crimes against young people.
And you lot complain about "rude".
I notice you all have carefully avoided the warlike nature of militant sectarian religion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:30 AM

My faith in the supremacy of Sheffield Wednesday which can only be denied by pointing out a few facts bears a remarkable resemblance to those who assert their faith in the prescribed versions of a God.

Can you have religion without a god? Yes. Our gods come and go, get transferred and retire. We still have faith in them and put them on a possibly undeserving pedestal.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 01:02 AM

The reason the 'left' embraces atheism so adamantly, is because you can't have two supreme beings..they believe in government as their supreme being and that leaves no room for an individual with a conscience that gets its morals or independent thinking from elsewhere.
Elementary Watson!

GfS

P.S.....Then they'd have to be open to admitting that a bunch of other shit they've been propagating is full of holes, as well....Oh No!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:33 AM

"The is a God is not being debated" It has not been mentioned by either side.

"Can you have a religion without believing in God?" Is being debated.

The answer plainly is "yes" according to one definition of religion. No if there is any logical or fair reason to exclude that definition. The rest is denial, puffery, banter and personal attacks. Just another day on the Mudcat BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:15 AM

The bottom line is that you cannot clearly take a stand on a proposition whose terms have not been defined. And I think the proposition "There is a God", as it is blithely being debated here, is essentially extremely ambiguous. As a result this becomes a carousel married to a roller-coaster.   Joe's remark ("sigh") is completely understandable.

I personally suspect that the reason the terms have not been defined is because there cannot be a common definition for a phenomenon which is entirely personal. The idea of insisting on an "objective" definition for something that is only found in the subjective universe of one individual at a time is ludicrous on the face of it.

This has nothing to do with whether that something does or does not exist in those individual world-views. But it does indicate that there is no way it can legitimately be another person's concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:12 PM

Fact: Bill and Steve Shaw are people who are considered to be atheists.

Fact: Bill does not insult anyone.
Fact: People do not insult insult Bill
Fact: Steve Shaw is snarky and insulting
Fact: Steve Shaw gets insulted

Deduction: the reason that some atheists get insulted is because they are insulting other people.

To test this hypothesis, Steve why don't you be polite and see how people treat you. Or you could just stop illogically implying that this issue is about atheism. It is not. It is the childish behavior of a small few activist atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 10:35 PM

Discussion is impossible at this point. Fact and reason have been held in utter contempt. Both sides of the discussion are completely inane.

As I said before: [...sigh]

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:49 PM

Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:33 PM

[sigh...]

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:13 PM

Steve Shaw.

"a good deal of insult has been hurled at atheists around here!"

But not for being atheists. You have to keep in mind that when you are being both an atheist and a jerk its not the atheism that people notice.

Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins. But are outspoken champions of atheism both try to undermine religious paradigms using arguments that start with science.

De Waal sticks to the science and doesn't unscientifically call anyone "delusional."

Dawkins draws a confrontational line in the sand by starting the debate questioning his opponents' mental health.

One is inviting insults, the other is not.

Bill D does not get insulted and you do. Bill is as much an unbeliever in God as you. But Bill does not hate God as you do. Bill does not take it to the level of religion. You do.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:09 PM

>>"Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins"
You people really are something else
What you seem to be objecting to is that Dawkins and de Waal are indulging in something that happens in every pulpit in every country<<

No, I am saying that de Waal and Dawkins are doing the same thing but De Waal is not being rude and Dawkins is.

I guess you must be something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 06:13 PM

Jerry who? If Jerry got driven away, it either meant that he was insecure about his faith and couldn't stand to see it challenged, or that he logged in and read threads that he could easily have avoided, or that he was pissed off/bored with the whole concept of this board. If you jump ship, you blame yourself. You do not get proxies such as yourself to blame other people on your behalf. Leaving this forum was his choice. Don't start accusing others of driving him away. That's just a sort of arse-about-face blackmail.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM

We drove away a lot of great people because of it. Jerry rarely come here and rarely posts, he feels like a second class citizen because of his strong faith. Great job, he is a legend in folk music and been here since this place started and gets driven away. Not once, Not one tine has he push his faith on others. One of the master song writers and performers and the best friend of Art for 50 years. And ya know what Art is an atheist and do I care NO, Art is a treasure and a beloved friend to me.

great job at driving Jerry away, this place is way less without him. Sadly it is only a couple of people that did it

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:13 PM

And I treasure my atheist friends here on mudcat. Ya know why, because I don't care what the believe don't believe but I can say they always respected my beliefs even when I prayed for them when they were sick. They knew it helped me worry less. But they key is, they are friends. No so for some others that just kick up the dust in your face all the time

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:06 PM

Jack
Bill is a scientist, his math takes him on his path. My math takes me a different direction but one thing about Bill, he takes friendship serious. Not something I can say for a few others.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM

"Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins"
You people really are something else
What you seem to be objecting to is that Dawkins and de Waal are indulging in something that happens in every pulpit in every country in the world where religion is practiced - the difference being that up to comparatively recently it was compulsory for the vast majority of believers to attend these gatherings on the threat of public humiliation and even physical violence (one of our elderly singer friends has spent her life with a burst eardrum from a blow administered by a priest for attending a dance that went on past midnight, into Sunday morning).
It doesn't auger well for the rest of us if you evangelical inquisitors ever manage to get a voice in the world.
I don't attend church - feel free not to listen to Dawkins or de Waal if you don't wish to.
I've just realised that, despite my father's experiences at the hands of the church, had I written something like "sky fairies and bogey men" while he was alive, as I did above, I wouldn't have been able to sit down for a week.
I was taught tolerance, a fact which stood me good stead when I started recording singers in Ireland thirty odd years ago. Many of the people we met were devout Christians who never have dreamed of questioning or interfering with our beliefs (or non-beliefs, as you bigots would describe them".      
I get on fine with my Christian neighbours, but when you religious, bullying (not to mention deeply dishonest) fanatics get going it really gets to me.
You need to get into your thick, superstition-riddled skulls that some of the most viciously bloodshed in the world today is done in the name of God, or Allah, or Jehovah, or whatever brand you care to label your toxic product - religious persecution nowadays means persecution by the religious.
Should this planet ever get itself into a major war again it is quite likely to be a 'Holy' one.
How about a little tolerance, love and understanding yourself, eh lads

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

Bill D does not get insulted and you do.

Ask him. In any case, do I get a little whiff from this that you think insulting me is somehow justified?

Bill is as much an unbeliever in religion as you.

I am not an unbeliever in anything, especially religion, whose existence I can hardly deny.

But Bill does not hate God as you do.

How can I hate a thing that I have discerned exists, almost certainly, only in the imaginations of a certain kind of person, and who represents a notion that has no influence on the way I live my life? Do you think I have time and energy to waste hating that? I think not.

Bill does not take it to the level of religion. You do.

Neither Bill nor I do any such thing. Goad away, Mr Parrot.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:23 PM

I think there are several 'classes' of atheists. For example, those who merely do not believe in any God but go about their daily lives without giving it much thought. (I have a very dear friend who falls into this category.) Then there are those who are quite heated about 'religious' folk and despise all believers. These tend to have a dig when they can in order to make their views stridently known. Then there is the militant category, the 'Fundamentalist Atheists', whose aim is to undermine and overcome all religious activity in society, seeing it as harmful and dangerous.

Well I'm none of those. I'm one of those who never mentions atheism unless someone else brings it up in threads or somewhere else. But once I get involved in talking about the delusion of belief then I shall continue to put forward my forthright and honest views in as direct a way as I can muster until the whole thing flags and sinks from the general consciousness. I do think about it quite a lot, unlike your couldn't-care-less class. I'm never heated, always ice-cool and I don't despise anyone. And there really is no such thing as a fundamentalist atheist. There is literally nothing to get fundamentalist about. I've defended some religious activities that yield benign results. I don't see all religious activity as dangerous, though some undoubtedly is, 9-11 for example (a million Iraqis and Afghans would certainly agree, on top of the families of the people killed in New York). Harmful? Not necessarily, if you keep it to yourself as a crutch for your personal morality (though why you think you need that is beyond me). But harmful to kids who are lied to, told that myth is truth? Quite possibly, I should think. Categories are a bit too black and white for my taste, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:18 PM

"a good deal of insult has been hurled at atheists around here!"

But not for being atheists. You have to keep in mind that when you are being both an atheist and a jerk its not the atheism that people notice.

Compare Frans de Waal and Richard Dawkins. But are outspoken champions of atheism both try to undermine religious paradigms using arguments that start with science.

De Waal sticks to the science and doesn't unscientifically call anyone "delusional."

Dawkins draws a confrontational line in the sand by starting the debate questioning his opponents' mental health.

One is inviting insults, the other is not.

Bill D does not get insulted and you do. Bill is as much an unbeliever in religion as you. But Bill does not hate God as you do. Bill does not take it to the level of religion. You do.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:04 PM

But for some reason that joy irritates the shit out of some not all atheists here in mudcat.

Well that joy doesn't irritate the shit out of me. Who did you have in mind? I'd also like to point out to you that a good deal of insult has been hurled at atheists around here!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:15 PM

"...it goes way beyond dispassionate disbelief."

Indeed....

"...are evangelical, attacking, argumentative atheists processing a signal?"

I suppose they have an internal, self-generated signal. They seem feel that most religious beliefs are an impediment to the basic progress of society, and thus 'need' to be disputed and put down. I see why they think that way... but I also see why believers feel the need to 'witness'. It ain't easy sitting on the fence- it's far easier in some ways to have one clear opinion and shout it loudly... on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:13 PM

Olddude, I have been saying that if you have so little respect for me that you START the conversation by saying that I am delusional and you carry that assumption through the whole conversation, you are not my friend.

One thing that has been true about the Mudcat in the 12 years I have been coming here is that some come here for friendship and others to disrupt.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:58 AM

I could not agree with you more Bill ... I tend to talk to people about a host of things, religion is not something I talk about because I assume it is personal as it it with me. My parents always told me religion and politics always kills friendship. Something few here have learned I guess

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:58 AM

Lets face it Bill. The people here who trash religion have axes to grind far beyond logic.

You don't have to call it religion if you don't want to. But it goes way beyond dispassionate disbelief.

"Off" is not a TV channel because your TV is not processing a signal.

The question is are evangelical, attacking, argumentative atheists processing a signal?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM

Dan... I know that some non-believers are over-reacting because they are reacting to being preached at and warned of the horrors of 'Hell' by over-zealous believers. It does little good, but some people just seem to need to argue and complain - on both sides.
I try to restrain myself and restrict my 'logic' to non-threatening explanations of why I... personally... would prefer people to learn to discuss rather than 'assert'.... on either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

and I know you Bill and you are the kind of person that accepts that others see the math different, and that is ok if they don't agree. My complaint is those always pushing their non beliefs, trashing others on a constant basis. If something works for another, each have the right to respect. When respect breaks down and mockery continues, then conflict and hard feelings occur. Too many years it has been a one sided non ending verbal assault on others beliefs, they are, like me entitled to walk the path of life as they see fit without a certain few atheists trying to "change them" for that is exactly what the anti faith threads are about,   preaching of an opposite belief system

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM

Ho hum. Jim, the only "desperate attempt" going on here is the desperate attempt of a number of disagreeing males to prove that they are right and the other guy is wrong, that they are rational and the other guy is stupid, that they know what they're talking about and the other guy doesn't. A bunch of "right men". To do this, they are willing to spend hours a day blathering on about whatever they think, and denigrating the people they talk to, while barely pausing for a single breath to EVER try and sincerely grasp what it is that the other guy thinks.

For the most part, it's a group orgy of non-listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM

Of course Atheism is not a religion.
But is anyone who hates God really an atheist?


Some people SAY they are atheists then act like God haters.
When you point that out they say that you are "attacking" all of atheism.

Your words are clear enough on the page why don't they see them?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:38 AM

one final metaphorical bit of logic. I'll stop now with that type of logic. It's like preaching to the choir anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:34 AM

more logic

Oh sure...I have a real opinion. Atheism is mostly just an attitude. Some just express it louder & more often than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-belief in a god is not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:30 AM

logic

(it's just an interesting cartoon)