Songs about gender differences

Subject: Lyr Add: I'M GONNA BE AN ENGINEER (Peggy Seeger)
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 02 May 13 - 11:29 AM

Henryp's what are little girls/boys made of reminded me of this one. I think this one fits the category.....


I'M GONNA BE AN ENGINEER (Peggy Seeger, 1970)

When I was a little girl I wished I was a boy
I tagged along behind the gang and wore my corduroys.
Everybody said I only did it to annoy
But I was gonna be an engineer

Mamma told me, "Can't you be a lady?
Your duty is to make me the mother of a pearl
Wait until you're older, dear and maybe
You'll be glad that you're a girl.

Dainty as a Dresden statue, gentle as a Jersey cow,
Smooth as silk, gives creamy milk
Learn to coo, learn to moo
That's what you do to be a lady, now.

When I went to school I learned to write and how to read
Some history, geography and home economy
And typing is a skill that every girl is sure to need
To while away the extra time until the time to breed
Then they had the nerve to say, "what would you like to be?"
I says, "I'm gonna be an engineer!"

"No, you only need to learn to be a lady
The duty isn't yours, for to try and run the world
An engineer could never have a baby
Remember, dear, that you're a girl"

She's smart --- for a woman.
I wonder how she got that way?
You get no choice, you get no voice
Just stay mum, pretend you're dumb.
That's how you come to be a lady, today.

Well, I started as a typist but I studied on the sly
Working out the day and night so I could qualify
And every time the boss came in, he pinched me on the thigh
Said, "I've never had an engineer!"
"You owe it to the job to be a lady
The duty of the staff is to give the boss a whirl
The wages that you get are crummy, maybe
But it's all you get, 'cause you're a girl"

Then Jimmy came along and we set up a conjugation
We were busy every night with loving recreation
I spent my days at work so he could get his education
And now he's an engineer!

He says: "I know you'll always be a lady
The duty of my darling is to love me all her life
Could an engineer look after or obey me?
Remember, dear, that you're my wife!"

As soon a Jimmy got a job, I began again
Then happy at me turret-lathe a year or so, and then
The morning that the twins were born, Jimmy says to them
"Kids, your mother was an engineer!"
"You owe it to the kids to be a lady
Dainty as a dish-rag, faithful as a chow
Stay at home, you got to mind the baby
Remember you're a mother now!"

Every time I turn around it's something else to do
It's cook a meal or mend a sock or sweep a floor or two
Listening to Jimmy Young - it makes me want to spew
I was gonna be an engineer.

Don't I really wish that I could be a lady
I could do the lovely things that a lady's s'posed to do
I wouldn't even mind if only they would pay me
Then I could be a person too.

What price for a woman?
You can buy her for a ring of gold,
To love and obey, without any pay,
You get a cook and a nurse for better or worse
You don't need a purse when a lady is sold.

Oh, but now the times are harder and me Jimmy's got the sack;
I went down to Vicker's, they were glad to have me back.
But I'm a third-class citizen, my wages tell me that
But I'm a first-class engineer!

The boss he says "We pay you as a lady,
You only got the job 'cause I can't afford a man,
With you I keep the profits high as may be,
You're just a cheaper pair of hands."

You got one fault, you're a woman;
You're not worth the equal pay.
A bitch or a tart, you're nothing but heart,
Shallow and vain, you've got no brain,
You even go down the drain like a lady today.

Well, I listened to my mother and I joined a typing pool
Listened to my lover and I put him through his school
But if I listen to the boss, I'm just a bloody fool
And an underpaid engineer
I been a sucker ever since I was a baby
As a daughter, as a wife, as a mother, as a dear
But I'll fight them as a woman, not a lady
I'll fight them as an engineer!

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 May 13 - 06:02 AM

Folk songs are often more forthright, but this well-known nursery rhyme dates from the early nineteenth century. These differences are recognised/reinforced in the nursery. It has a Roud Folk Song Index number of 821. (Data from Wikipedia)

What are little boys made of?
What are little boys made of?
Slugs and snails
And puppy-dogs' tails,
That's what little boys are made of.

What are little girls made of?
What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice
And everything nice,
That's what little girls are made of.

I can't think of any more mature examples - perhaps I have simply been oblivious to them.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 May 13 - 06:00 PM

Harry Chapin: Why did little girls grow crooked when little boys grew tall? Very perceptive, particularly when you remember Harry has been dead thirty years ...

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 07:41 AM

Kate Bush; Running up that Hill (A deal with God) So people could understand each other by changing places, male to female, vice versa..very provocative song.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 04:09 AM

Thanks for clarifying that, Henryp. Absolutely. I'm not particularly interested in songs about the war between the sexes. I'm more interested in social attitudes....the masculine, the feminine, and all that falls in-between.   The stereotyped 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits and the areas where they seem to apply, where they don't, and where they seem 'reversed'.

That's why I like those two Talking Heads songs, the Tony Kosinec "Men and Women" and the Loudon Wainright one. And I think that "Why Can't I Woman Be Like A Man" from Camelot could also apply.   I'm really interested in finding others.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: Joe_F
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 08:58 PM

Yes, when I was a boy the sexes were male & female, the genders were masculine, feminine, & neuter, and fucking was fucking. But with increased sophistication there was a need to have a short word for sexual activity, and "sex" was pressed into that use, and "gender" was moved over to take its place. To my recollection the changeover took place, with remarkable rapidity, in the mid to late 1970s. It is rather too late to turn it back.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 05:57 AM

Bubblyrat - you would be correct if we were talking about bodies and physical differences.

But aren't we talking about minds and perceived differences? It's a bit more subtle. I think gender - masculine or feminine - is warranted.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 05:30 AM

Please could we return to the correct usage of proper English ? On my birth certificate it says "sex" , not "gender" , which is a word used in English grammar.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:13 PM

I'll listen to that Blur song. Thanks Don. Also to Simon's suggestion (the 1920s gender-bending href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSlfQ49Bq1s">Masculine Women and Feminine MenAlso And thanks Joe F, particularly for reminding me of that great song from Camelot (Why Can't a Woman Be Like a Man).

And I'm very familiar w. the calpyso song Man Smart Women Smarter, but hadn't remembered it....so thanks MorwenEdhelwen1.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM

"Girls who like boys........etc.etc" from BLUR.....

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 11:22 PM

*Smart*

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 11:21 PM

Man Smarter, Woman Smarter?

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: rosma
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 08:27 PM

Looking at it from a slightly different angle...

Even in the 1920s gender-bending was a concern - Masculine Women and Feminine Men

Simon

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: rosma
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 08:25 PM

Looking at it from a slightly different angle...

Even in the 1920s gender-bending was a concern - < href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSlfQ49Bq1s">Masculine Women and Feminine Men

Simon

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 08:05 PM

Why can't a woman be like a man?
What are little girls made of?
The Female of the Species

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 06:14 PM

Thanks JWH. "Men" is a great one....pretty bitter in terms of the 'roles' that society compels men to play.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,JHW(cookie still on old computer)
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:07 PM

Loudon Wainwright III 'Men' On Youtube

Subject: Lyr Add: THE GIRL WANTS TO BE WITH THE GIRLS
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:50 PM

Don Wise: I looked up your lyrics, and the closest thing I could find to it was: Girls and Boys by The Pet Shop Boys....which appears to be about the sexual behaviour of transgendered people. Interesting...I guess it's on the 'fringe' of what I'm looking for.

But I did find another one by Talking Heads called "Girls Like to Be with the Girls". From their 1978 album "More Songs About Buildings and Food". It's a great description of how we males sometimes get so confused by the way women relate to each other....and to us.

Songwriters: BYRNE, DAVID
The girls don't want to play like that,
They just want to talk to the boys.
The just want to do what is in their hearts,
And the girls want to be with the girls.

(chorus)

And the boys say, "what do you mean? "
And the boys say, "what do you mean? "
Well there is just no love,
When there's boys and girls.
And the girls want to be with the girls,
And the girls want to be with the girls.

Girls want things that make common sense,
The best for all concerned.
They don't want to have to go out of their way,
And the girls want to be with the girls.

(chorus)

And the boys say, "what do you mean? "
And the boys say, "what do you mean? "
Well there is just no love,
When there's boys and girls.
And the girls want to be with the girls,
And the girls want to be with the girls.

Girls are getting into abstract analysis,
They want to make intuitive leap.
They are making plans that have far reaching effects.
And the girls want to be with the girls.

(chorus)

And the boys say, "what do you mean? "
And the boys say, "what do you mean? "
Well there is just no love,
When there's boys and girls.
And the girls want to be with the girls.
And the girls want to be with the girls.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: doc.tom
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:02 AM

Little bit of whang.

Subject: RE: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:55 AM

What's that pop-song about "girls who like boys like they're girls etc.etc....."(or words to that effect). No idea who it's by.

Subject: Songs about gender differences
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 12:35 PM

Hi folks, I'm interested in interesting songs that talk about the perceived differences in men and women.

I've found a few.   One of them is by one of my favourite Canadian songwriters....Tony Kosinec. It's called "Men and Women" and, unfortunately, the lyrics aren't posted anywhere on line (that I can find) and there are no youtube videos.

Here's a sample of the lyrics.
MEN AND WOMEN by Tony Kosinec (1995).

WOMAN: "We think he isn't very sensitive...
MAN: We think she isn't very kind.
NARRATOR: I think they both want a relationship With somebody in their mind".

Another one, which I've posted as part of my Top 200 Albums of All Time program for Peach City Radio is Talking Heads song (from Talking Heads 77) called "Tentative Decisions"---about how typically males process 'decisions' in a much different way than females.

www.youtube.com/watch.

http://mudcat.org/www.youtube.com/watch

(I hope one of these links works....just trying it out)

Some of the lyrics go:

TENTATIVE DECISIONS-Talking Heads
Oh the girls
Still want to talk
Would like to talk about those problems
And the boys
Say they're concerned
That they are concerned with decisiveness

Any other songs any of you can think of on this theme?