where are the youngsters??

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: selby
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 04:02 PM

They are all over, enjoying themselves, dancing playing singing and supporting each other. E.G. a local folk band in there 20s launched their new cd young dance teams supporting them absolutely great night but if you don't look for or support them you will not know what is happening.
Keith

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 02:21 PM

I'll try to answer your question, Charley from my own recent experience, which really is as much as anyone can do. I played as part of a band at several folk clubs and festivals in Scotland throughout 2012, after being lucky enough to have been asked to make a musical contribution to a CD by a very fine and well-regarded Scottish singer, and receiving several bookings on the back of that.
I doubt if any of those audiences at those events contained even 1 in 10 people under the age of 30. The last time I was in a similar situation was in the mid-1980s, and the audience demographic was very different then - maybe 40% under 30. Aberdeen Folk Club in the 70s - 80s would have been about 50-50. I can't comment about today, because I haven't been there for a while on a normal club night.
Now the informal session scene - and I can only really comment on the situation here in Aberdeen - is quite different. There is a session on a Monday night, which has been going for years, but is struggling a bit at the moment. Nevertheless, there are a lot of students who come in to listen to the music - many of them from European countries, who frankly seem more interested in traditional music than the native Aberdonians. This audience would be in their late-teens, 20s. The Tuesday night session is very much based on a mixed instrument class, who adjourn to play some tunes after their class. Most of them would be, I think, in their 30s, with an average age of maybe 40. The musicians who play in these sessions are tend to stay in that environment, ie, playing in a large group, and as far as I can see, very rarely stray out of it - they by and large do not attend the local folk club. The 2 scenes are almost totally divorced from one another.
I don't know if this is the case everywhere, but that is how I see things where I am at the moment, in the North-East of Scotland. The "youngsters" are going to sessions to play, rather than the local folk club, where they might have to be more passive.
I think this trend is also reflected in folk festivals in Scotland, again based on experiences from the 1980s and last year. There's no doubt a lot of work and arts and education money has gone into encouraging young people in the UK to learn to play traditional music, and make a career of it, but what do they do if there's no audience for them to play to - which I think could well be the case in 20 years time.
Sorry about the length of this - but it worries me, and you did ask ! :)

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 09:59 PM

here is another one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-97jGfDkczA

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 09:56 PM

here is one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMQoQtspxiQ

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 08:39 PM

I hope young people are having a good time

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM

Doing the right thing, good on ya , bet you always do the right thing ,eh ????

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 03:18 PM

No Mr/Ms Anonymous, just trying to do the decent thing and clear up a misunderstanding. That's what normal people do when they unintentionally upset someone.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 02:49 PM

er, so that seems to be a no then...

Lavengro, you are very defensive,bet you are rarely wrong eh??

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 09:27 AM

"Where are the large-scale young audiences for traditional folk"? Well, where are the large-scale older audiences? Except in very specific venues, the audience for 'I learned it from somebody who learned it from somebody who found it flowing gently on the wind' music is vanishingly small. I suspect that the OP is an adherent to the 1956 (or is it 1965?) definition of "what is folk music", so we've come back yet again to that ongoing discussion.

We faced this issue two years ago here in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Our annual folk festival (come see us) had a reasonably decent turnout, but the audience was mostly guys with beards and gals in long dresses (we won't talk about the ones with both). We knew that there was a younger folk scene, because those groups showed up in local bars, but not at our jams and singarounds. We managed to get one younger person onto our festival board of directors, he attracted more, and now almost half the board is 35 or younger. Based on what happened last year, we are anticipating an increased number of younger participants (ours is a participatory festival) and audience - including children.

Seek and ye shall find - sit around and grump about it and they'll pass you by.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 06:45 AM

@ Charley O'Neill

"The fact of the matter Lavengro is that in my experience"

I thought you were after other peoples experience, not your own, hence the post? Which many have spent their time giving you.

As for... "I find it very insulting that you seem to think I am prejudiced"

I know short messages on message boards can be a bit of a blunt tool and lead to misunderstandings, but if you read my post you will see a question mark after the comment indicating a question and speculation on my part. Doesn't mean I'm right? I also said "prejudice" as in a preconceived idea not "prejudiced" as in an unfounded bias or hatred which you seem to have taken it as? (please note question mark)

Apologies for clearly upsetting you, but as I said message boards can be (IMO) a blunt tool, and I'm not a professional writer, just proferring an opinion which I thought was what was asked for?

In regard to your comment

" That's what I'm asking,or will the music largely die when todays older generation do ?"

No it won't. History teaches us that. People play music from hundreds of years ago, people watch and listen to people playing music written hundreds of years ago. It will all continue as it has for thousands of years. This generation is no more important or incompetent in passing on music than the last one, or the ones before, or the ones before that.....

ATB

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 06:45 AM

Charlie .
Folk music doesn't completely break down the boundaries between audiences and performers ,but in the past it was music of the people , by the people, for the people -it was never intended for the entertainment of "huge audiences" , whether young or old. If you attend a concert where there is a huge audience of young people looking up at a stage to a distant multi-millionaire singing in the spotlight , that isn't "folk music" - even if it is some very old Childe ballad being sung.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 06:34 AM

As a youngster of 21 I have been brought up in folk clubs, singarounds and at festivals. I still regularly attend to listen and sing and I love it, so although a minority we are out there!

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,muppett
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 06:18 AM

Come you lot stop going round the houses and just answer Charley's question, but it's like listening to A BUNCH OF POLITICIANS.

:D)

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:22 AM

I'm trying to figure out how the age of people in the audience is significant. There are old people at young performers' concerts, young people at old performers', and it's a mixture of people who like traditional music. It was thus when I was young, and it doesn't seem to have changed. There aren't that many lovers of traditional music to segregate them by age, and I've never heard of anyone trying. It's the music that matters.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 12:05 AM

I suspect that most are sitting around at home drinking home-brewed sarsaparilla, chatting about model trains while organizing their cigar-band collections.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 11:06 PM

I'm not under 25 (unfortunately!)but count myself as a younger folk fan albeit a recent one. I discovered folk via mainstream popular artists like Mumford and Sons (so dont knock them)and was interested enough to investigate more. My experience of folk clubs is limited but when attending folk festivals I have been encouraged to see younger people enjoying 'trad' artists and the likes of Bellowhead have been instrumental in bringing a new younger audience.Yes of course it would be great to see more young people but until mainstream radio grabs hold of it I think it will always be a bit of a problem (Mark Radcliffe does a sterling job on Radio 2 but 1 hour a week?? come on!)

I also feel that how the older folk audience reacts to younger people will dictate how many stick around. I have lost count of the number of times Ive had strange looks for getting up and dancing (shock horror) or dare I admit to clapping along lol! I fail to understand the sitting still to joyous danceable music and Im sure many younger people coming from watching rock/indie/dance artists will agree with me.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:49 PM

Yeah,nice one, I'll say it again, where are the young audience??

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:32 PM

Not many "large scale" groups of youth doing folk/trad... but there are always some. Even during the folk scare of the 60s the young one were not totally into it. I doubt that all of them were into it when it was REAL folk...before recordings and collectors.

My son and his GF are in two different groups doing semi-trad stuff.... not exactly as *I* would do it, but they at least know what the sources are... (I am...umm.. helping... their education by showing them options, and they often choose the 'folkier' version.)

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: gnu
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 08:53 PM

No. It will never die. It lives today. The joy now is that modern technology preserves all of this wonder forever, even if "the kids" wanna listen to crap... ahhhh... SCUSE ME!... yer Rap. And, I should also say, I like some Rap. Matter of fact, I got some Cape Breton Celtic Rap that is cranked when I go low ridin in me truck up yer Mountain Road pissin off all the youngsters on accounta grampa drives soooo slow! When will these youngsters realize that old men drive slowly BECAUSE THEY CAN!

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 07:36 PM

But are there any large scale young audiences???? That's what I'm asking,or will the music largely die when todays older generation do ?

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: gnu
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 06:42 PM

I absolutely love spreading trad music among my relative's and friend's children. I recently took up the task of "educating" those of teenage years regarding Bluegrass music. Some may know of my addiction to The Cleverlys. Addiction/obsession/adoration all fit. Not the genre I cotton to by nature but these guys are amazing on all levels and their music is exactly what I allude to in my previous post because they "advance" the music by combining genres. And, they do it is a very musically competant and humouros way. I have one buddy's lass of 14 who has all of her friends KEEN on Bluegrass! And it was all because I posted something silly on Facebook saying that I was all up on what the kids are listening to these days on her mother's Facebook page. Here it is... please don't get yer collective asses up in the air... this actually broadened their music experience because they LIKED it and watched the OTHER videos... real Bluegrass, baby!

I Kissed a Girl cover by The Cleverlys

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 06:00 PM

I'm with Richard in Liverpool on this one - I'm 40 so probably count as youngish by folk standards and I'd far rather hear (and play) trad folk and unearth gems that few people now remember rather than 60s and 70s covers performed by people who think they're holding onto a traditional form of music.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:47 PM

Folk -- no matter how you define it -- is not easy to find on the radio dial. Lack of exposure is one of the reasons a lot of people grow up never actually hearing folk, trad or even more traditional singer-songwriter songs.

I'm constantly amazed when people (of all ages) either wander accidently into our sessions and are enthralled or find themselves in the middle of our annual Portsmouth Maritime Folk Festival -- which is not a captive festival, but performed on the sidewalks and public venues of Portsmouth, NH -- and become fascinated by the melodies, stories being told in the songs, use of the shanties in performing a job. And many seek out more information, buy CDs, search out the music online.

Ranger1 has been writing a weekly blog bringing the music to the gamer community, which is mostly young. They're curious...and want to hear more...when they have a way to be introduced to the music.

A lot of people listen to the music that they do because they honestly don't know what else is available and they haven't had the curiosity or direction to seek out something different.

Linn

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: gnu
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:37 PM

Will Fly... well said. Especially, "And, as long as you, whatever age you are and whoever you are, can do your own thing, why worry?"

I find that there has been a tremendous resurgo in "Celtic" music in Canada that has built momentum over the past ten years. I know it's just a "pocket" but to me, good "tunes" never die. And, they spawn NEW music. Indeed, I have thought a great endeavour would be to trace Celtic music beginning with the Celtic Tribes which covered most of Europe long ago to it's leap to America, it's transformation into "modern" music in America and Europe with the reverberation between the two over the last several hundred years leading to the fact that a group of Celtic musicians from Ireland have become the "top" band in the world and Bono spoke eloquently on "TED" about poverty and it's elimination.

It bloody boggled my mind! It's a "new" power of music - huge sums of money made by musicians put to use for good causes. Yes, I know many people may ask "say what?" but it does amaze and encourage me, even if the "result" is not "folk". (What the folk IS folk??? Maybe some should start a thread on that topic?)

I am far more interested in the progression and history and the interaction between the past separation of Europen Celtic and American Celtic spawned music that led to the diversion that it did but I find it fascinating that modern communications since radio hit the airwaves have spawned a reverberation between the two which has accelerated to the present day and enriched the music. For some, better. For some, worse. But, buddy, me zon, me zon, ya can't stop yer progress, eh? And, ya shouldn't. Ya have the past. It can never be taken away. You have the future, it will be. Ya can't worry... it ain't gonna do ya no good.

That is one of the reasons that I have remained a Mudcatter for some dozen years or so. Max's Mudcat Cafe was dawned as an historical homage to Blues, which I consider Folk influenced by the Celtic Tribes in at least their various forms of delivery of song.

Let's hope this here Mudcat Cafe survives forever to pay homage to those who attempt to provide a record of our journey over many hundreds of years even if it is more or less a snippet of that history and not just a record that we like to listen to. It's important.

Thanks, Max. You youngster, you!

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:58 PM

and why do you talk of backing up prejudice? there is no prejudice...I just asked if young people make up an audience anywhere for traditional folk music. I hope they do, but I have not seen it. I find it very insulting that you seem to think I am prejudiced

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM

The fact of the matter Lavengro is that in my experience,such people very often do not make up the audience.they are happy to play their own thing,but often are not interested in anyone else.I have seen this on so many occasions

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:23 PM

You know, it's starting to look like some posters to this thread are missing the point or just fancy a little confrontation?

People I know in punk bands are in punk bands because they like punk. Which means they go and watch other punk bands. Ditto folk, pop, C & W, rock, blues etc. etc. etc.

So if someone is telling you there is a healthy population of "yoof" in their area playing Trad folk it's a pretty safe bet they are in an audience at some point watching the same stuff!! Obviously not the "answer" some want to hear to back up their own prejudice?

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 01:54 PM

Older audiences these days tend to have the money to shell out in tickets to events. I don't know a single folkie under 30 who is gainfully employed enough to cover basic needs (food clothing shelter) and still be able to buy tickets AND fiddle strings. That's why they are at the jams, and playing for half a night at the contra dances (so they can dance for the other half). There aren't any folk clubs around where I live, btw, but a healthy amount of "folklore societies" hosting the best around- like Deb Cowan and John Roberts , for example!

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:23 AM

That's not the point mayomick, the question is about audiences not performers.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 08:55 AM

It's still going strong in Ireland . I was delighted to hear trad musicians from Craobh Seán Treacy playing as I walked through the local shopping centre a week ago . Little kids no older than four or five playing alongside grey haired people in their sixties ; with a good crowd standing around tapping their feet.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:42 AM

@Will Fly

Exactly.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:24 AM

I wonder - does it matter?

If any style of music has merit, someone, somewhere, will enjoy it, play it sing - pass on the stuff to other people. If not, then it will lie fallow until someone does. My view is that what goes around comes around - perhaps with a different generation as the catalysts and in a different format and environment.

It's not as though, in this day and age, folk music - however you define it - will get lost as it might have done in the days of Sharp, Grainger, Broadwood, Vaughan Williams et al. There are dozens of written and recorded versions of folk songs in archives, on CDs, on YouTube, on Spotify - for example - so that anyone with a yen for the music can dig into it and perhaps rediscover it afresh.

Music popularity fluctuates - but you can be sure that the "youngsters" are busy doing their own thing. And, as long as you, whatever age you are and whoever you are, can do your own thing, why worry?

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:08 AM

Some of our young people performing........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JH47Iyz_e0

Not really, but I just couldn't resist ;)

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:06 AM

As someone who is probably on the younger side of the demographic, I have to say, I LIKE trad music, and it's not the trad music that makes me avoid some folk clubs. It's the incessant acoustic 60s and 70s covers and singer-songwriter material in that style. The ones I enjoy and go back to are the ones where people are singing, passing on, and putting their own 'stamp' on tradiitonal and material in the traditional style.

Other people will have other tastes, but please don't think that it's the trad music that's offputting to all "the youngsters". To me, there's nothing more offputting than a folk club turning into a 4th rate pop-idol.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:00 AM

Yes.

But of course if you are one of the clubs where folk music means this, and this alone......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL0qfJr9d6w

Then anyone but semi-retired geography teachers are going to be a bit thin on the ground.

At my local club we have a core of about 15 young people who started to turn up about 18 months ago after a bit of a push to get them in. They were "allowed" to play what they wanted. Guess what, 8 months later music from the cast iron definition of "trad" that some get so squirty about started to, and continues to make up some of their sets. I think that has happened because they have had the opportunity to mix with older musicians from that tradition and there has been an appreciation as a result.

Of course if the club was one of those where young people playing anything outside of some club designated take on what constitutes trad. was met by disapproving looks and snide comments? Then I assume we wouldn't still have them playing there as they would have moved on elsewhere to an open mic night or something? In turn they wouldn't have learned from the older musicians and I would be one of those posting on here bemoaning the young peoples lack if interest.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Muppett
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:30 AM

blooming eck you lot why do you have to complicate things, answer this then are there many young people (and I'd class young people as under 25) attending the folk clubs you attend, yes or no.

Discuss

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:28 AM

They are doing their own thing, elsewhere.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:40 AM

This question gets rehashed every few months.

As Gibb Sahib says, it depends on what your expectations are of "folk". You're decrying "Mumfords malarkey" which also encompasses a whole raft of other young people who are playing what *they* think of as "folk" but which you're explicitly excluding. But the "folk" that many of my generation were into in the 60s would have also been specifically excluded from being considered by a previous generation....despite the fact that significant figures of my youth such as Swarb went on to become very learned about really old trad music and its history. They weren't "folk" because, dammit, they used amplifiers!

Yes, there are quite a few youngsters (and not just the offspring of "1960s folk-revival royalty") playing "traddier" music, but often to older audiences.

But there are also younger people playing and singing in quite "traddy" styles to other young people....just not so much at the sessions and singarounds that tend to be frequented by older folkies. They're doing their own thing.

They often do it at open mics, and why not? I think many of them have quite eclectic tastes and would find a whole evening of purely trad folk a bit limiting, so they "mix it up" at sessions or open mics where anything goes. There are pubs around here with acoustic sessions that are mainly populated by under-30s, and I rarely see any of "my" generation or older there.

I've taken younger people along to traddy-type sessions in the past but they tend not to stick....one of the complaints being the quality of the music.....especially where there are performances from 3-4 people on the trot who sing (often badly) interminable unaccompanied ballads. And I can see where they're coming from! Last time I was at such a singaround I had to leave for a while when the 3rd-in-a-row very mediocre-voiced unaccompanied balladeer started.

OTOH, I go to a couple of open mics now where there's a wide age-range , from 16 to late 70s, playing all kinds of music, singly and in duets and trios, and ranging from trad folk to beat-boxing. I find them more stimulating than a whole evening of trad folk, to be honest.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:48 PM

I've seen photos from NEFFA last weekend, and there were loads of young people. The first "Youth Traditional Song Weekend" was held last January (Massachusetts) and was a huge success, from what I've heard. I see them at sessions (tune and song) around here, and I have photographic proof of some if them Morris dancing.

Both performers and audience come from the same general population, so I don't see it would matter what they're doing.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:03 PM

hardcore punk - bit old hat innit?

So? You still don't see significant numbers of older people at hardcore shows.


Charley, where are these emanating traditional sources?

You still say nothing about the style and era of the music. Are you talking about folk as a specific genre, or as an approach to making music? If as an approach, then I'm willing to bet young people don't approach it much different than you, they just play it in different genre-specific styles. If as a genre, then why would young people want to necessarily play the genre specific to your generation?

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:20 PM

ok mrs / mr -whoever you are !! where are the young folk (ie, music emnating from a traditional source) audience?? any idea ??

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM

No, we don't have to have any "what is folk" *debate*. But it stands to reason that *you*, Charley, defined folk in some particular way (or, have something in mind when you refer to folk). I, making a guess about what you might have in mind, suggest that you may be looking in the wrong place OR have something in mind that simply not what other generations would have much reason to take an interest in. I don't see many youngsters into 1920s hot jazz or 1950s doo wop, either, nor do I see many old people at hardcore punk shows.

This can be simplified, without "defining" folk per se, by just stating more specifically what style and era of music you have in mind. A general sense, not an absolute definition, is sufficient.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:50 PM

yeah, we could have the 'what is folk' old chestnut of a debate and loads of boring old 'horses singing' type malarkey etc,etc. I know that young people do some fantastic stuff with the trad material, but what I am asking is, does the music to any extent have much of a young following? what I see is largely, the priveliged offspring of folkies doing their thing and the ageing folkies digging the new breed ! Am I wrong ??

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:36 PM

There are very few people performing *any* "trad" music (~styles over a 100 years old). As for "folk" in the modern sense, young people are doing it, it just doesn't often take the form of the 1950s, 60s etc styles that got connected with that genre label.

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:21 PM

yeah musos, good one..but do theay have a young audience to any extent, that is what I wanna know !

Subject: RE: where are the youngsters??
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:10 PM

Alive and well in the US. I have a houseful jamming at my house every Monday, and some of them have great potential to become real pros.

Subject: where are the youngsters??
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:06 PM

Is there a genuinely young folk scene going down?? I do, do doubt it...there appears to be pockets of youngsters (very,very good, yet oft times very,very , very smug) knocking about the scene - big fish in a small pond. However, I have not seen such youthfulness reflected in the audiences to any extent (I could be wrong - it has been known). I am talking here tradfolk - not yer mumfords malarkey. There are plenty of open mic nights, but is there actually a market of trad young folkies playing for a young audience? I hope there is...