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Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos

GUEST,Futwick 05 May 13 - 12:40 AM
open mike 05 May 13 - 01:06 AM
GUEST,CS 05 May 13 - 01:24 AM
GUEST,Eliza 05 May 13 - 03:19 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 05 May 13 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 05 May 13 - 04:39 AM
Megan L 05 May 13 - 06:27 AM
gnu 05 May 13 - 06:45 AM
Megan L 05 May 13 - 06:59 AM
Stu 05 May 13 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Eliza 05 May 13 - 10:51 AM
Ron Davies 05 May 13 - 11:23 AM
Ron Davies 05 May 13 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,Futwick 05 May 13 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,Eliza 05 May 13 - 02:30 PM
pdq 05 May 13 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Eliza 05 May 13 - 06:28 PM
kendall 05 May 13 - 08:09 PM
Stu 06 May 13 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,TIA 06 May 13 - 10:30 AM
Bill D 06 May 13 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,TIA 06 May 13 - 11:30 AM
Stu 06 May 13 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,TIA 06 May 13 - 11:50 AM
pdq 06 May 13 - 12:29 PM
Bill D 06 May 13 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Eliza 06 May 13 - 06:18 PM
Ron Davies 06 May 13 - 10:26 PM
GUEST,Futwick 06 May 13 - 11:19 PM
GUEST,TIA 06 May 13 - 11:39 PM
Richard Bridge 07 May 13 - 02:46 AM
GUEST,Eliza 07 May 13 - 03:14 AM
Stu 07 May 13 - 07:21 AM
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Subject: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:40 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/did-poachers-finally-wipe-rhino-population-mozambique-154252469.html


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: open mike
Date: 05 May 13 - 01:06 AM

The plight of the rhinos is note worthy, but unless there is a song about it, this message belongs in the non-music section "below the line"


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 May 13 - 01:24 AM

I understand these park rangers aren't well off. But for one months pay they put themselves out of a job? That can't be smart thinking surely.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 May 13 - 03:19 AM

In my experience, I'm afraid Africans mainly live in the moment. Their families need feeding now, so they take the money now. They have such a fear of dire poverty and starvation always in their mindset that any offer of some cash is taken up. The future is uncertain but the need is very present. For example, a well was drilled by a Charity in a village I know of, and pipes laid just below the ground to take the water to other villages nearby. This saved the women carrying heavy water pots on their head for miles from a contaminated source. A year later, the charity returned to service the pumping system, and found to their horror that the pipes had all been dug up and the metal sold. The women were still carrying the water. They explained that water was there for the carrying, but food was not, so in their eyes the money was far more important than the pipes. The Mozambique Rangers probably realise that their jobs are by no means secure, and could be lost at any time. So they preferred a quick fix. To an African, a stupid rhino is nothing. They probably can't understand our white person's obsession with wildlife etc when most of Africa is going hungry. I don't agree with their view, but I do understand how it's been formed.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 May 13 - 03:27 AM

Not sure it's a specific African problem. The demand is there.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/rhino-heads-horns-worth-500-000-stolen-in-dublin-1.1364543


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:39 AM

I'll dod that link again: Rhino horns stolen


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Megan L
Date: 05 May 13 - 06:27 AM


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: gnu
Date: 05 May 13 - 06:45 AM

Truly sad. Well said, Eliza.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Megan L
Date: 05 May 13 - 06:59 AM

drat do not try and post when exhausted or the thread fairy pinches your typing :). What I thought I had written was that it is hard to even think of a value tomorrow when you are starving today.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Stu
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:14 AM

Rhino's, elephants, wolves, any number of species of big cats, sharks, pangolins, cetaceans, the great apes, more ecosystems than you can shake a dead Taiwanese Clouded Leopard at, fuck knows how many other species etc etc

We are in the throes of a mass extinction of our megafauna that is driven by greed, ignorance and irrational, blind stupidity. Worldwide there's a truly boggling number of people killing animals that cannot be replaced for any number of reasons. It's truly saddening, all the more so in that countries that should know better still engage in the slaughter of these innocents because of their own utter fuckwittedness.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:51 AM

I agree with you Stu about the sadness of the loss of so many beautiful species, and mourn them as much as you do. But until we somehow eradicate the two evils of Poverty and Ignorance from developing countries, people will continue to sell rainforest for oil drilling, and kill rhinos for their horns, and trap gorillas for 'bushmeat' etc. We don't live in their world, so we can hardly judge their actions. I'm passionately interested in all wildlife (except spiders!) and hate to see the destruction of habitat and the uncontrolled killing of animals. But first you have to improve the 'habitat' of the humans and give them no reason to pursue their depredations. They aren't 'f***wits', they're merely trying to live their lives as best they can and get something for their children to eat. You can hardly blame them for that.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 May 13 - 11:23 AM

This should be an obvious question.    What about ecotourism?      Fine, we cannot blame the "rangers" who need to feed their families, but if the government had pushed ecotourism--or pushed it more--it seems reasonable the standard of living for the entire island could have risen, and the rangers could have been paid more. On a long-term basis--since this would have been a continuing source of income, rather than a "one-shot deal" (American) (British--"one off"?).

And we can blame the government--unless I suppose the government did not for practical purposes exist, due to an ongoing civil war.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 May 13 - 11:32 AM

"government hopes that the nation's game and nature reserves will become a major tourist attraction"    per Wiki.   

They do not appear to have helped their cause by the pay given the rangers.

Civil war supposedly ended in 1992.    Electoral fraud questions recently but other nations have had this also; e.g. 2000 US election.

Sounds like the government is in fact to blame here.    If anyone has more infomation to the contrary, let's have it.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:11 PM

Those civil wars have destroyed so much wildlife that it's heartbreaking. Some areas have wiped out the wildlife due to civil wars--all the animals dead.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 May 13 - 02:30 PM

Eco-tourism is a good idea, and in N Senegal for instance there is a flourishing bird-watching area with many excellent lodges for the tourists to stay. But many countries are unstable and one takes risks visiting them. Most eco-tourists don't want to be kidnapped, raped or murdered on their holiday! Also, nearly all African countries are riddled with corruption at every level.(I don't know about other continents) Maintaining and monitoring conservation programmes is virtually impossible. Money changes hands and rules are 'relaxed' at all levels. My husband says that in his country (Cote d'Ivoire) he feels that only 'the whites' could improve things by strictly enforcing conservation and patrolling reserves themselves. It sounds racist and colonialist, but he should know, and I tend to think he's right.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: pdq
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:29 PM

Most 'native people' know about the very small area surounding them and they think that is what the rest of the world is like.

They got elephants therefore everybody's got elephants.

When the government or 'white' foreigners say they should stop killing the animals, the 'native people' sometimes do it just for spite. Afterall, these creatures are nothing special so why should they stop doing what they have been doing throughout history.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 May 13 - 06:28 PM

I didn't just mean the 'white foreigners' SAY they should stop killing animals, I meant that my husband believes only they could ENFORCE the law vigorously, without being prone to corruption. He feels Africans have enough respect and awe of 'whites' to abide by their strictures. This sounds horribly racist-in-reverse, but I'm only quoting him as a point of view from the shop floor so to speak. Ivory Coast is a sad example of killing animals. Their very name explains all. There are no wild elephants left there after they were all hunted for their ivory. Of course, the dealers who buy animal skins, horns etc are just as culpable, and may be of any race or nationality. The natives who obtain and sell them this stuff can't resist the temptation of a quick buck. Ordinary West Africans in general are very far from understanding eco-systems and the importance of conservation. They find the whole idea of venerating species bizarre and unnecessary. Quite honestly, those I spoke to in Senegal and Gambia for example couldn't give a toss about any flora or fauna. If it's edible they'll eat it. If it can raise a few pennies they'll kill it. If it's the last one on the planet, so what? I got the impression they find our ideas daft and rather quaint. In Casamance, they're busily desertifying entire areas into dry dustbowls by grazing goats all over the place. Why? Because goats are easy to raise, hardy and taste very nice.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: kendall
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:09 PM

From a human angle, remember Jean Val Jean in Les Miserabs? 10years in a galley for stealing a loaf of bread. He knew the chance he was taking,
but the immediate problem was hunger.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Stu
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:12 AM

"But until we somehow eradicate the two evils of Poverty and Ignorance from developing countries..."

This crisis goes way beyond developing countries, and is not necessarily of their own making. The developed world is no position to preach to anyone after the mass extinctions they're responsible for and still pursue with the sort of vigour only the truly dim-witted seem to muster when it comes to killing things. We can't look down from our ivory towers and condemn those struggling in a world that seems so far beyond their control. Look closer, and our ivory towers are actually made from the bones of millions upon millions of dead wild animals, and the reek of our hypocrisy given off from the decaying flesh still clinging to the countless skeletons we stand so proudly on makes the air unbreathable.

Here in the UK our tribe of toffs and those self-appointed 'guardians of the countryside' the farmers are about to unleash a new wave of slaughter on the badger population, whilst in the US it's open season on the country's wolves (again). Both of these appalling acts are the result of ignorance and utter idiocy, a rejection of science and reason in favour of allowing those who think they know but actually don't to dictate policy over those who would attempt to make genuine progress into solving these issues on the ground. Progress that doesn't include slaughtering everything we share the environment with, especially our beleaguered mega-fauna.

The trade in wild animals is a response to a demand, once again this demand is fuelled by ignorance and lack of reason (i.e. the belief in homeopathic remedies such as powdered rhino horn or tiger paws etc), or sheer greed (as in the ivory trade). The fact is these trades could be stifled if agreements were made to stop the transport, export and import of wild animals and parts of them, but there is no political will to do so. Why? The free market of course.

It doesn't take a genius to conclude that a complete lack of regulation and the myopic adherence to free-market economics means that the only value put on anything is a market value and that means these problems are inevitable; they are a natural consequence of a totally free market. So our countries are hardly in a position to sneer at the Africans as they decimate their own heritage; it's only what we're doing in our own backyards by extirpating any animal that's seen as a threat to food production (regardless of the consequences), and the seas surrounding us that we're stripping of any living thing with unthinkably massive collateral damage.

The sorry truth is, our forefathers blazed a bloody trail for future generations to follow when it comes to how we treat the beings and ecosystems we share our planet with, and it would be a good start if we could take a moment as we stand waist-deep in the blood and gore to consider whether the best way to feed our population is to learn and understand how the world works and work with it, instead of killing as much as possible and wondering why the birds have stopped singing. However, it seems we are incapable of true progress, and so we're all royally stuffed. And we sort of deserve it.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:30 AM

My brother is in the middle of this one.
He secured a 4.5M USD grant to the govt. to protect the rhinos and other big game because Moz (some in Moz) are trying very hard to develop ecotourism and the big five are the draw (and until the rhinos went, Moz had them all). But the govt never used the money for the intended purpose, and the Chinese have driven the price per ounce of rhino horn above that of gold. The rangers' behaviour is capitalism at work.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:11 AM

The issue of **traditional** Chinese (and other oriental) medicine need to be taken to the United Nations....and nations need to tell those countries that trade and cooperation will be cut off until a program exposing superstition and ignorance is instituted. "Rhino horns will NOT increase your masculinity!"


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:30 AM

Sadly, rhino horn is being peddled in China as a cure for cancer. And desperate people will try, and pay top dollar for, anything.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Stu
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:34 AM

Rhino horn is no different to any homeopathic medicine that is unproven. It's cobblers for the gullible. If a remedy comes along thats efficacy is proven in clinical trials etc then it's called simply 'medicine'.

The only way is to educate.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:50 AM

Of course it is bullshit, but the people who are peddling it get rich and don't give a shit about the rhinos or the cancer victims.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:29 PM

"Of course it is bullshit, but the people who are peddling it get rich and don't give a shit about ______ "


Same thing applies to heroin, cocaine, AK 47s, counterfeit pacemakers...


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:04 PM

"Rhino horn is no different to any homeopathic medicine that is unproven."

Yes, it IS different. It comes from an endangered animal.

Can you imagine what would happen if they 'thought' that ground up Monarch butterflies would cure acne?


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:18 PM

There have been several cases of witchcraft in Nigeria (and other countries) where body parts of dead children have been thought to be a cure for Aids and other deadly diseases. And people have actually bought children from their parents in order to murder them and use them for this purpose.That is why I earlier stated that Ignorance must be tackled in order to combat these horrifyingly primitive and erroneous ideas and stop the trafficking of rhino horn etc. It's a complex social and political situation, with many serious causes to be addressed. Poverty and Ignorance are at the bottom of it all.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:26 PM

"government never used the money for the intended purpose".    That's despicable--even if typical.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:19 PM

There is a tremendous amount of superstitious ignorance in the third world. I remember in the 90s reading about African men going to the police to report the theft of their genitals. They would say that a sorcerer stole them. when the cops would take the person in a back room and have a look, they reported that in every case the person's genitals were intact, apparently unmolested and functioning normally.

If a man can convince himself his genitals were magically stolen and you cannot convince him otherwise, you're not going to convince of much of anything.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:39 PM

Along the same lines...
Apparently, in Swaziland, the "cure" for HIV is to have sex with a young virgin.
Oh Shit. Really?
Can we say "negative feedback"?


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 02:46 AM

Ignorance and stupidity are not good. But then along comes a do-gooder who says: -

"my husband believes only [whites] could ENFORCE the law vigorously, without being prone to corruption" and:

"Africans mainly live in the moment".

I regret to say that these utterances appear to live in the world of ignorance, stupidity and prejudice.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:14 AM

I don't think, Richard, you can accuse my husband of 'ignorance' of beliefs pertaining in his own country where he was born and lived for forty years. And my experience of West Africans has been gleaned over many years and many travels in the bush and in cities. Prejudice, by definition, is judging before one has the knowledge to judge. I and my husband, however, DO have that knowledge. But then, you seem to have taken a strong dislike of me and my views, and I could if I wished use the word prejudice with regard to that, as in fact you have never met me.


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Subject: RE: Poachers wipe out Mozambique's rhinos
From: Stu
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:21 AM

"There is a tremendous amount of superstitious ignorance in the third world."

Superstitious ignorance is worldwide, how it's devotees express their irrationality that changes. Sneering at those living in the undeveloped world is snobbery, pure and simple. Homoeopathy is a driving force in the trade in rhino horn, and the charlatans that sell their snake oil the world over are responsible for perpetuating this nonsense about the efficacy (beyond the placebo effect) of any of these 'medicines'.


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