The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Young Buchan
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:40 PM

If the original heckler has withdrawn his heckle, I am prepared to take the job over.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 07 May 13 - 10:58 PM

Schweik, at http://folksong.org.nz/fwltgold/ Paul Metsers is quoted as saying,

As far as cover versions go, Nic Jones' version on his "Penguin Eggs" album is by far the best known and the only one to have earned me anything. I've never received any royalties from Mary Black.

No mention of Dylan. Elsewhere on that page, it says,

...Bob Dylan (bootleg 1991 CD "Himself") who sung it as 'The Miners Song' at Youngstown Ohio, in Nov 1992. This is the only song written by a New Zealander that Dylan has done, and that single concert the only known public performance by Dylan of this song

So is Paul Metsers upset that Dylan only sang it once? or that he got the title (and some of the lyrics) wrong? or that someone made a bootleg of Dylan's performance?

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:33 AM

"primarily concerned about his career and himself ". That's putting it mildly.

Of course that's not a hanging offense, as far as I know.

But it does seem that he let his deification go to his head.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:36 AM

i agree with Jim Carroll, in my opinion Dylan was someone who was primarily concerned about his career and himself.
Pete Seeger is someone I have a lot of respect for he was part author of where have all the flowers gone, he suffered during the macCARTHY ERA, but stuck to his principles unlike Burl Ives, pete is still campaigning about social injustice and ecological pollution, to me he is a hero.
ask paul metsers about dylan and farewell to the gold

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:54 AM

As the second poster in this thread, I can say (to CET) that there was no "sneering" at anyone. Ironic comment - yes. And I still find it ironic that so many so-called free-thinking, "liberal" people got upset because a musician changed direction in a way that they didn't approve of. The problem is that, if anyone is placed on that sort of pedestal, they will be bound at some stage to piss some people off.

Stay on the pedestal! Don't ever change! Don't ever move on! Well, it's worth reading some of the accounts by members of The Band of Dylan's European tours in those days - and the crap they had to take from disapproving audiences.

I actually couldn't care less about Dylan's changes of direction, or his motivations - they're his business - and, over the years, I've liked bits of his music and disliked other bits. Neither have I much interest in the carpers or the man who shouted 'Judas'. But the mindset and the sociological landscape of those times is interesting to look back on. I lived through them, by the way.

And I still loved the old Free Trades Hall and regret its passing as a music venue.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:32 AM

Peter K - The Free Trade Hall was sold in 1997 so I think the question of 'why now?' is valid.

DtG

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 13 - 02:54 AM

"but by that point in time he didn't give a shit."
Dylan never gave a shit about anything or anybody very much - he was a shrewd and somewhat ruthless businessman who used music and people to climb - ask Joan Baez.
He came to public notice singing protest songs, but when it came to putting his money where his mouth was he had to be shamed into taking part in the Civil Rights demonstrations in the South. When he was asked to take part in the Freedom Rides by Seeger and others he replied (through his manager) that he couldn't afford the fare - actor Theodor Bikel ended up paying for his ticket.
The man who shouted 'Judas' was wrong - he was never into folk-song deeply enough to betray it - it was just another rung on the ladder, and the pop scene was a logical place for him to end up.
Whether you like or dislike his music depends on whether or not you like that type of music - 'tain't folk.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 07 May 13 - 02:20 AM

>> sorrry rev,dylan handled the heckler badly,

He was forty dates into a tour which was unrelentingly hostile. He was physically knackered and emotionally exhausted. As the rest of the Manchester tape shows, he handled it well when he chose to, but by that point in time he didn't give a shit. I don't think there's all that many people in a position to judge his behaviour in that situation.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:10 PM

I hope John Prine is on the list--he deserves it at least as much as Dylan.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Deskjet
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:58 PM

Long after the vast majority of us are long forgotten, the world will still be listening to Bob,... and Bach and Beethoven.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:46 PM

I could definitely see doing something like that (the shout) that had I been an obsessive Dylan fan at the time of that concert. I sure wasn't.

Course I'm even more conservative than the "Judas" man when it comes to Dylan.

I think his very first album, with "Talking New York Blues", etc. was delightful--with its understated musical arrangments--it helps if you're solo--, its homage to Woody, and its sly humor (also Woodyesque).

From then on Dylan became progressively more full of himself and more turgid.   Perhaps they go together. But it's not a requirement for memorable music or to address social issues--see John Prine,

And please spare me the drivel about how we owe the Band to the new Dylan.    The Band likely could have made it without Dylan.   The Band kept their sense of humor. Dylan appears to have lost his.

Added to which, if the clip has any fidelity, the sound of the second half of the concert was dismal.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:03 PM

"Why bring this up now?"

If you had paid attention to the link, Johnny J, you would have seen that Lizzie was drawing attention to television and radio features recalling the incident which the BBC put out when the Free Trade Hall was put up for sale. But maybe your question was all about you going me, me, me...

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:24 PM

well, that which is sneering is a matter of opinion.
sorrry rev,dylan handled the heckler badly, in my opinion through lack of experience, just because he was a touring star for several years, playing to adoring audiences, does not make him experienced in dealing with a heckler, in my opinion dylan comes over as a self important, pompous prick.
now, do not misunderstand me, dylan has written a number of good songs, and also one or two bits of forgettable dated crap

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:07 PM

Well, OK. I think not but at least I can see why you may have felt that. I think both were tongue in cheek myself but I am sure the posters can speak for themselves. Thanks for the response anyway.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: CET
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:45 PM

The first post was simply informative. The second and third posts were sneering.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:22 PM

>> in my opinion Dylan showed lack of experience as a performer in the way he handled the heckler, he must have been expecting some adverse reaction.   

Dylan had been a touring star for several years by the time of the live '66 tour. He always had a strange relationship with his audience, as the Halloween tapes clearly show, but inexperienced he was not. Tired and angry is probably a better description of his state of mind at that moment. Try watching the Don't Look Back concert recordings.

>> However Dylan achieved massive publicity from the incident.

No. The incident received zero coverage and was forgotten until the bootleg tapes scene made it famous.

Regarding Pete Seeger, he was fine with the music. He was angry with the sound quality which was overdriven, something which doesn't come through on the desk tape.

And there are several contenders for the identity of Judas. Butler is only one.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:53 PM

Interesting piece in some ways but I wonder why it has taken this long to be seen? In the first minute or so it says that the Free Trade Hall is up for sale and could be redeveloped as an hotel or office block. The Hotel that is there now was opened in 2004, meaning the piece must be at least 10 years old. Not exactly current events is it!

CET - What are you on about? No-one before or after your post remotely indicated that they were 'looking down their noses'.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:04 PM

well the truth that this incident highlights is that the folk music scene was not left wing hippies. hippies were not left wing to start with. the folk music scene was pre hippie and was very much led and run by middle class mediators. they shaped it to their political ends. pete seeger was one of many. the folk music scene was inherently class bigoted in it's fifties and sixties form and still is in those church basements and Wednesday night sing alongs that still have it.

that's why they had such trouble accepting celtic music. I well recall being snubbed at the singers club for making the terrible mistake of singing in gaelic and being told at the old Vancouver folk song socirty that I couldn't play nova scotia and newfoundland songs"because we play folk music here". it was always a bourgeoise pretension of being authentic , that was totally made up as one up manship not aqs any real rooted tradition. rock and roll has much deeper roots in traditional american music that any of the folk mediators. I well remember that day at the Vancouver folk song society when I looked in they were school teachers weaqring clean bib overalls and singing the banana boat song by harry Belafonte.

these were middle class young people trying to be hip and be listening to the hip music. it was no different from the fashion scene, just easy to sing songs and few instruments to trouble the poseurs.

that's the real message.

as to hippies they were rich kids. again it was about self indulgence and style. they were a bit more progressive, but when the middle class kids were no longer eligible for the draft then the anti war protests stopped on a dime. the war went on for seven more years.

the middle class reinvent themselves every generation and more holy and righteous than thou. Dylan saw that and challenged their silly pretensions and blew them away. ever one should read douglas narkners book "fake song" about how folk has a long history of class bigoted middle class mediators who were trying to use it for their own ends, much as the rump of folkies still are. very few have any roots in traditional music and in my experience they try to get rid of anyone who does. I used to carte but I just moved on the paying gigs. there is a demand for traditional rooted music, at least enough to make a living from time to time.

nd what is with the sexist bigots who keep attacking liz Cornish for mostly inoucous postings? what a bunch of lowlife. I realize her postings on native rights rile the racists who are plentifull on mudcat(at least towards natives) but this was a music post and an interesting one.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: alanabit
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:34 AM

Thanks for posting. I suppose we all say and do daft things when we are young. Not all of us grow out of it. It seems like all concerned did in this case though. This incident encapsulated a watershed moment in sixties music for a lot of us. The thing about the film which most surprised me though was that CP Lee, of the rather odd Alberto Y Los Trios Paranoias, has become an academic. Who would have expected that?

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob Dylan
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:14 AM

interesting, thanks for putting this up, in my opinion Dylan showed lack of experience as a performer in the way he handled the heckler, he must have been expecting some adverse reaction.   
However Dylan achieved massive publicity from the incident.
Johnny j,your comment in my opinion is unnecessary,I am glad my attention was drawn to this incident

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: frogprince
Date: 05 May 13 - 07:41 PM

Two reactions: One:
A few years back, William Shatner appeared on Saturday Night Live. They did a skit in which fans asked him increasingly inane and trivial questions about details in Star Trek episodes until Shatner freaked out and started screaming to the effect that said fans needed to get a life. Get what I'm thinkin?

B: Lizzy may bug some of the people most of the time, and most of the people some of the time; but there is no reason to interpret this link to something that some people may find interesting as her going "me, me, me".

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 May 13 - 03:19 PM

Don't we all find that our tastes change as we get older?

I remember arguing that the Dave Clark Five was better than the Beatles.

And maybe at the time, they were.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: GUEST,Johnny J.
Date: 05 May 13 - 02:57 PM

Why bring this up now? It's hardly news. Of course - it's all about Liz going me, me, me.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: Elmore
Date: 05 May 13 - 02:13 PM

St. Pete.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 May 13 - 02:00 PM

If he was Judaa, who was Jesus?

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 May 13 - 01:25 PM

Ah yes... the man who took the folk out of folk music.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: Elmore
Date: 05 May 13 - 01:15 PM

Booed him at Newport, because I was young and stupid. Enjoyed him in Boston 32 years later. He must have improved.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: PHJim
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:32 PM

I had always thought of the Newport Folk Festival where Bob appeared with members of The Butterfield Blues Band and was booed and where Pete Seeger got so upset with him as the true turning point. The "Judas" concert was one of many to follow, but not the true turning point in Bob's career nor in the history of Rock & Roll. How can one heckler among hundreds, yelling one word, be such a big deal.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: CET
Date: 05 May 13 - 11:45 AM

Where do you people get the nerve to look down your noses at this guy? He freely states that he wishes he hadn't yelled "Judas" and that he now likes the music that Dylan went on to make. It was a different time, he was young, and like millions of others he had put Dylan on a pedestal where he never belonged. I found him to be quite a sympathetic character.

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:56 AM

The Original 'Moaning Minnies' ;0)

Subject: RE: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:26 AM

Well now - isn't it fun? All those left-wing, '60s hippy folkies being so conservative about their music. Putting people in a box, tying it with string and labelling the contents.

"I just felt let down." Tough. Would we have had the eventual joy of The Band without those little "Judas" moments, I wonder...

I knew the old Free Trades Hall in Manchester well - a great music venue - and saw The Incredible String Band, the Dave Brubeck Quartet and the Rev. Gary Davis there, among others.

It's now a hotel.

Subject: The Man Who Yelled 'Judas!' to Bob
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:14 AM

For those who may not have seen this....


Bob Dylan's 'Judas!' heckler....