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Bob Brozman legal issues

Related threads:
News story on Bob Brozman allegations (33)
Brozman on the Backbeat (18)
Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013) (43)


GUEST,Potato fingers 03 May 13 - 08:34 AM
GUEST 03 May 13 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,steve s 03 May 13 - 05:46 PM
Murray MacLeod 03 May 13 - 07:12 PM
GUEST 04 May 13 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Gene-Adelphi 05 May 13 - 06:29 AM
Jack Campin 05 May 13 - 07:21 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 May 13 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Another guest 05 May 13 - 05:34 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 May 13 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Another guest. 05 May 13 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,stevesg 05 May 13 - 10:06 PM
GUEST 05 May 13 - 10:27 PM
GUEST,Another guest 06 May 13 - 01:26 AM
GUEST,mg 06 May 13 - 01:53 AM
GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie) 06 May 13 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,BoudiceaBlues 06 May 13 - 03:53 AM
Dave Hanson 06 May 13 - 03:55 AM
GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie) 06 May 13 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,Duck Baker 06 May 13 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Anon 06 May 13 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Duck Baker 06 May 13 - 10:05 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 May 13 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,another guest. 06 May 13 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,I knew the bastard 06 May 13 - 12:49 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 May 13 - 12:50 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 12:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 May 13 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,gillymor 06 May 13 - 02:20 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,stevesg 06 May 13 - 02:29 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 03:16 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 03:59 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Andy Alexis 06 May 13 - 04:02 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Guest 06 May 13 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,Duck Baker 06 May 13 - 05:39 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 05:47 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 05:55 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 05:56 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 05:59 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 06:02 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 06:07 PM
Bill D 06 May 13 - 06:17 PM
GUEST 06 May 13 - 06:26 PM
Jack Campin 06 May 13 - 06:31 PM
Wesley S 06 May 13 - 07:18 PM
Midchuck 06 May 13 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,Santa Cruzan 06 May 13 - 08:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Potato fingers
Date: 03 May 13 - 08:34 AM

From the Santa Cruz News:


Gary Atkison (ex U.K. tour agent)Thu, May 02, 2013 - 12:01 pm
Because of the number of word restrictions, I am sending this message in two parts.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble here, but if you don't make it easy for readers to contact the editor directly then this sort of thing can happen.
You'll learn my qualifications for making the following statement in a moment. But let's begin with the difficult stuff first. 
Bob Brozman committed suicide on Tuesday evening, 23rd April 2013, shortly after learning that he was to be taken to court for the severe sexual abuse of a child. This abuse happened some years ago spanning a period of time from when his victim was a toddler through to being a young teenager. In more recent years he repeated this abuse on another under age person. All of his victims were well known to him. In addition, I tell can you that whilst he was in the U.K. 1994 on tour, he sexually abused my own daughter who, at the time, was nine years old. I have never forgiven him and I never will.
My name is Gary Atkinson and I live in the U.K.. I was Bob's tour agent between 1988 and 1994. On the back of one major concert at the ICA in London, I arranged his first significant tour here. And even though I had not done anything like this before, I managed to get together for him ten or twelve dates. 
We first met at London's Heathrow Airport. His flight was nearly twenty-four hours late! And he had been in the plane for that entire amount of time. As soon as he walked into the arrivals hall, loaded down with guitars and suitcases, I made him go straight to the bathroom and change into his stage clothes, after which, I bundled him into the car and we took a white knuckled car ride into the West of London where he was to headline a major concert, showcasing some of the finest slide guitarist in the world. After such a long and tiring journey from when he first set off from home, most people would have walked onto the stage, said "Hello" to the audience and then curled up under the chair and then said "Good night". Instead, Bob walked on, looking and acting like he had just had a month's vacation in Hawaii and as fresh as a daisy, he launched into one of the most energetic and powerful acoustic sets that I had ever seen.
Unlike most tour agents and artist's managers I always toured with the artists that I represented. I did the driving, I acted as stage crew, I helped with the sound checking, I would arrange interviews with everyone from music magazines to appearances on National TV and radio. Hotels, restaurants, banks, doctors. You name it. I even got up and joined him with my own guitar for half of the second set. Bob was an immediate success. The tours grew, year by year. By the fourth year we embarked upon the biggest tour so far. Nearly seventy dates, spread just a little over three months, including clubs, theatres, arts centres, concerts, festivals and even private parties that were prepared to pay his highest fee.  And those sixty something dates didn't include interviews, workshops, recording dates etc.
I tell you this because, as a result of all of this activity Bob and became very, very close. From that first meeting at the airport, we got on like the proverbial house on fire. We agreed that we had become like "blood brothers". In addition, he was welcomed into the hearts, minds, venues and often, homes of people up and down and around the British Isles. He couldn't go wrong… Could he?
Reply to this comment
Gary AtkinsonThu, May 02, 2013 - 12:02 pm
When a travelling artist, such as musician, is on the road there is one thing that is at the top of the code of do's and dont's.  Among all of the contracts for every date, interview, TV and radio appearance and recording session, there are also unwritten contracts of trust and moral behaviour. Bob, like so many, lived a here today, gone tomorrow life. He was idolised and had audiences in the palm of his hand. Yes, he put his trust in all of those that were prepared to further his career but he was also put into a position of trust by hundreds, if not thousands of people around the world who just wanted to help Bob Brozman because they loved him and loved what he did as an artist. This came as everything from handshakes by adoring fans or the free use of family homes by patrons of the venues, all done to help him and encourage him on his way.
I'm not going to go into details, but, for me, that trust was shattered in 1994 when Bob tried to take advantage of his "blood brother's " daughter. I confronted him about it and he would not admit to anything. There was a witness. My daughter's friend, also nine years old but she would not speak out. As a result, I quickly wound down the tour and had nothing to do with Bob again… until recently.
The first victim's mother had been relentlessly trying to press charges against Bob for some time. The second mother's victim was also fighting for justice. Bob denied everything and the local law enforcement agency were frustrating efforts by not taking individual allegations seriously. Bob thought he was on safe ground and in doing so tried to paint a picture of crazed opportunists trying to exhort him for his not insubstantial wealth.
More recently, I was contacted by the parents of the victims and from 6,000 miles away I did my best to support and encourage them. At times they were exhausted in their quest to get justice for their loved ones, whilst at the same time Bob proceeded to win the love, adoration and accolades from audiences around the world.
But even more recently as the result of the dogged persistence of the victim's parents a court case was announced. Bob panicked and quickly changed his tact, offering a significant "out of court" payment for the first victim. Of course, this is an admission of guilt in anyone's book. However, Bob would have known that such a settlement does not stop a case going to court and every court has the media reporters in attendance. For Bob the game was going to be up.
All of those years ago, Bob explained to me why he did what he did as a performer. Despite the fact that he really didn't need to work, certainly as much he did on his endless tours around the world, he fed off the audiences before him. He told me that he desperately needed their recognition, approval and acceptance. 
With what was about to happen, coming straight towards him like an unstoppable express train, he knew that all of that trust, the praise and adoration was about to be shattered monumentally and he would be revealed for what he was.
I know that I cannot put everyone right about the real Bob Brozman and I don't blame millions of people for thinking that he was one Hell of a guy because of what they have seen at the shows and read in the papers, magazines and on the internet. But I will inform, where articles such as this have been written.  Either, take the article down or do some proper journalism, find out the facts and tell the truth. The article as it is, is offensive to those involved.

From Bob's first wife:

My friend, Gary Atkinson, just called out the media for these worshipful pieces. Gary came forward and said it, Bob was a pedofile and about to go down. This is why he killed himself. My understanding is many, many people in the music world know. God knows I've been doing my best to receive justice for my loved one for years. Another thing, how many days did it take for the cause of death to come out? Well all one had to do was call the SC County Coroners office, as I did. In the garage, carbon monoxide and notes were left. Yes Bob was a musical genius. He was one when I met him in 1975. But he did great damage to at least 3 families that I know of and has caused decades of harm to at least one mother/daughter relationship. Domestic Violence and crimes against children have a way of affecting generations of people. Yes there are also grandchildren now. Please see Gary's comment on SantaCruz.com. It is in response to an almost unreadable peice of hero worship. He lays it out quite compelling since Bob molested his daughter also. Bob was not a good man and left a heartbreaking legacy.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 13 - 05:18 PM

If there is a way for the message to get to Bob's first wife, I would only assure her that I never, ever heard another report or rumor of this conduct. Not to say that I doubt her at all, but only to say that the impression that many musicians knew of this and did nothing may not be true at all. I will only add, as tactfully as possible, that many of his peers found Bob difficult on a personal level and were therefore not snowed by him or anything or that sort. I never bought the story about taking his life because he couldn't play like he used to. For any father to do that, that would seem impossible, though the story that he was in pain seemed credible. But that was before hearing this incredible news, which makes it obvious that none of us knew him.

My own inquiries seem to indicate that these awful allegations are true, and my heart goes out to anyone who has been damaged by this, and to their families. My only aim here is to assure them that this was not at all known to those of us in the music business; I wasn't close to Bob but have friends who were, and none of them knew.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,steve s
Date: 03 May 13 - 05:46 PM

I have done a cursory inet search and communicated with some friends in the biz, and I can't confirm the above allegations. However, "Gary Atkison" is real, and has an association with Brozman. I advise caution esp. anonymous confirmation, as in the post above me.

steve senderoff


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 May 13 - 07:12 PM

It would seem to me that further comment, either eulogistic or speculative, would be well advised to be witheld until an official announcement has been made from the relevant authorities which would either confirm or deny that there was an impending prosecution.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 13 - 04:47 AM

I explained the reason for my previous post as having been made not to confirm anything but to hopefully send a message. It was anonymous because I'm a performing musician and want no part of amy controversy. Had I not satisfied myself about the probability of Mr. Atkinson's claims I would not have posted anything, but I am, as I said, not here to convince anyone of anything, one way or the other. I'm afraid that the truth will emerge anyway, but I'm not close enough to events to confirm anything, anyway. Really, all I can confirm is that the people who work in the same musical world never heard of any such behavior and my aim has only been to ease the impression on the part of Bob's wife that his peer group was covering for him.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Gene-Adelphi
Date: 05 May 13 - 06:29 AM

RE: Bob Brozman Obit...

To: Murray McLeod, and the other "naysayers", Et Al

Murray, the very LAST thing that ANYONE that has a potential (personal) "interest" in, or personal knowlege of (one way or the other) of this (horrific) "Brozman" situation should do is to "... with-hold comment....", with the exception, of course, of any MORE speculative &/or opinioned commentary, with which I totally agree with you.
However, waiting for an "...official announcement" regarding the factual details regarding Brozman's "alleged" pedophilia, is the equivalent of "...waiting for Godot", it will NEVER HAPPEN THAT WAY MY FRIEND!

The ONLY way that the truth will become known is by some of the serious blues & folk researchers, in residence here, doing the same serious Scholarly research that they do when researching the ENTIRE details of Robert Johnson's death but instead regarding Bob Brozman's death...this IS NOT rocket science my friends!

My personal researches seem to indicate that the "allegations" of pedophilia on Brozman's part are "in fact" true.

If so the ramifications are fucking horrific!!! How many Brozman fans out there have allowed "Uncle Bob" to crash at their house alone with their young children over these 20 or 30 years? How many of their children were NOT believed when telling their parents about "Uncle Bobs" touching? How many such children are in total denial & suffering years of psychiatric intervention? How many such young teens & young adults need understanding and "closure" over such abuse?

Well obviously I don't know (yet), but I'm VERY pessimistic about the ultimate possibilities, nay probabilities!!

I bring to your attention the theory known as Occam's Razor....the quick version goes something like this: In general, the simplest explanation for a given phenomenon, is predictably/generally the "correct" one.

You will not hear the truth from the family or the authorities, however, deep research into the CA court system (before it's expunged) will surely produce the public access documents such as CA vs Brozman, etc. pursuant to which the Subpoena was issued!!

It's there guys...........DAMMIT, go find it! PLEASE!!!

Gene R., Pres.
Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
BBM Publ., ASCAP
NARAS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 May 13 - 07:21 AM

The evidence in this thread doesn't suggest that Brozman was such a total loose cannon as to be a risk to every child he encountered in the music scene. If he had been, word would have got around long ago (as it did with Jimmy Savile).

Rampant monsters sell more papers and ad space than grey and boring truth. So Rupert Murdoch has a bottom-line motivation for escalating every case of paedophilia that way. I doubt if Gene R does.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 May 13 - 11:43 AM

I fear this thread may limp along like the UK obit thread for Jimmy Savile did. It is a tragedy when someone is as flawed an individual as Mr. Brozman apparently was. He doesn't get a pass because he was also musically very talented.

It is better for those who are grieving, who might be looking for solace, to find a straight obituary thread with memories from friends and fans. Where does the talent and the sum of all of his recorded performances belong when the flawed individual who falls from grace (and then some) is shown to have had feet of clay via a criminal private life?

Keep the speculation about criminal behavior and proceedings over on this thread.

Thanks. Message edited to make sense in this new location.
SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Another guest
Date: 05 May 13 - 05:34 PM

Silly River Sage, I have to disagree. Pedophilia is fucking evil, pure and simple. I'll withdraw this if it turns out to be untrue but at this moment as one who knew Bob I have to say in my heart I believe it is the truth. I'm not piling on. But his fame and his wealth couldn't protect him from the truth any more. Word needs to get out. Other victims will come forward and still others need to know that it's okay to come forward. All the talent in the world does not balance the fact that there was a totally evil monster in our midst and its name was Bob Brozman. His contributions will be a simple footnote. He should have gassed himself years ago.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 May 13 - 07:58 PM

Word needs to get out for whom, "another guest?" He's gone. You're only hurting his friends and family now. And I'm not saying it shouldn't be out, but not necessarily in the obituary thread. It's unseemly. Start a new thread and we can move the accusations over there. Let his friends and family suffer in peace. They have a lot to be angry about without your righteous indignation. Go read my post again. I'm not giving him a pass. I think you ought to give a care to those around him who are now incredibly shocked and are mourning many things, not just his death.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Another guest.
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:16 PM

I respectfully disagree. There is NOTHING more reprehensible, more evil than victimizing children. I feel for his friends and his family but this is bigger. This story needs to be told everywhere. I'll say it again, and again and again, anywhere I can say it: There was a totally evil monster in our midst and its name was Bob Brozman.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,stevesg
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:06 PM

_hey trolls and sock puppets_

criminal cases are not on line accessible in the database of the CA Superior Court serving the Santa Cruz area--only civil proceedings. They show Brozman's divorce and a probate process involving Haley, both not recent.

all allegations trace back to "Gary Atkison" and posts that may or may not be from Brozman's ex-wife.

_nothing_ can be confirmed or verified.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:27 PM

Gary Atkinson runs Document Records and has confirmed that he posted the information. He is also a co-author of brozman's national guitars book.

David Lindley and Paul Hostetter have weighed in online to say they are stunned and dismayed...but did not say they don't believe it.

No one from brozman's family or inner circle has denied or countered the charges. In fact, they have issued no statement whatsoever...not even an obituary or death notice in the local paper.

Much as I hate to admit it, this awful stuff has the ring of truth.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Another guest
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:26 AM

I'm surprised and dismayed to see mudcat engaging in censorship of any kind. Brozman was a monster, a hideous, evil monster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:53 AM

i think as they grieve they need to grieve for the whole truth, whatever that is...otherwise, if they grieve the man they thought they knew, and then the truth came out, it would be even more devastating..although if this is true they undoubtedly have been notified.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie)
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:45 AM

What the hell is happening here? There have been many contributions and questions raised by people who knew Bob Brozman very well - now they have mysteriously disappeared. OK, obviously the slasher had a reason but surely we are due an explanation rather than to be treated like naughty children!

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,BoudiceaBlues
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:53 AM

Censorship!!?? Innocent until proven guilty, I understand, but freedom of speech. Shame on you! Some of the, Mothers, Parents of the victim's, now survivors, DESERVED to be heard, in this community of musicians, etc. Music is where we as songwriters,musicians and artists go when we can't express ourselves.This site is also another place, with Mudcat, that we can come and keep the origins of music alive. AND feel free to say what we need to say, about the rusty strings sounding better, and things we maybe couldn't say to our RL friends.. Being a purist doesn't mean "editing" out the biography. Let us also, not make this the Altamont, to a very beautiful and inclusive musical movement.One that is an important geneology of American music as well as the, again, all inclusive World music.

Love and Power to those who need it, and all of us who need eachother right now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:55 AM

Someone earlier said ' this thread may well run like the Jimmy Savile thing in the UK ' yes it will, like this thread, when rumours started that Savile was a paedophile people rushed to defend Saint Jimmy until the truth finally surfaced about him, I suspect this will happen about Brozman too.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie)
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:03 AM

I commented, rather angrily, on the obit thread, before this one appeared. I now apologise although a link would have helped.

Eddie1


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:19 AM

What can possibly justify the removal of posts pertaining to facts here? Particularly when what is at stake is the possibility that other people targeted by this predator can finally feel free to speak out. I posted several days ago anonymously after having spoken to enough people to feel very sure that the allegations were true, not giving my name because as a working musician in the same general field I wanted to avoid controversy. Then, after speaking to enough people to be very certain, I posted using my name but my comment never appeared. I have been very moderate in saying what needed saying, and I'm telling anyone who cares that, if they follow the story back to the community of musicians in the Santa Cruz area, or to people who know Gary Atkinson who first made the allegations public (still viewable on the santacraz.com site), you will no longer be in doubt. I don't mind at this point having my name here; neither the perception of me by those who would choose to remain in denial nor the idea that we are besmirching a legacy means a hoot in comparison to the need of this community to look after the harm caused to innocents, however belatedly. Like everyone else, I didn't WANT to believe the truth of someone I knew for nearly 40 years, though not well, and worked with a few times, etc. But the fact is that word has gone out in the musical community that these allegations are true. If you don't want to take my word for it, and don't have access to other people close to the situation, and don't want to believe what people like Atkinson and Daivd Lindley are on record as saying, fine. But there can be no excuse for censuring comments that speak to these things. None whatsoever.

I certainly hope I don't have to stop visiting this site over this. My aim and that of others speaking from being close enough to have a clear view is to help victims. Nothing else matters at this point. If mudcat can't see that much, the waters must be muddy indeed in your world.

Duck Baker


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Anon
Date: 06 May 13 - 09:21 AM

Victimizing children. There is nothing worse. One cannot help but wonder about the trips to all those third world countries. The man's "contributions" as a musician are worthless now. Everything he did is tainted by this, the most monstrous of crimes. I'm convinced that it is true. I am convinced that Bob Brozman was an evil, evil man. I'm glad he's gone and I wish he'd done this years ago. There is NO defense for this. No extenuating circumstances. If I never hear a note of his "music" again it'll be way too soon. Burn in hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:05 AM

Understandably enough, no one has been sure how to deal with this, and now some comments are here and some on the other page. I'm going to paste the substance of my last comment on the other site, editing out the complaints made when I thought the comments about abuse were being censured. To those who are worried about Bob's family and so on, wake up - the issue now is ONLY about victims, especially those as yet unidentified.

What is at stake is the possibility that other people targeted by this predator can finally feel free to speak out. I posted several days ago anonymously after having spoken to enough people to feel very sure that the allegations were true, not giving my name because as a working musician in the same general field I wanted to avoid controversy. Then, after speaking to enough people to be very certain, I posted using my name. I have been very moderate in saying what needed saying, and I'm telling anyone who cares that, if they follow the story back to the community of musicians in the Santa Cruz area, or to people who know Gary Atkinson who first made the allegations public, you will no longer be in doubt. I don't mind at this point having my name here; neither the perception of me by those who would choose to remain in denial nor the idea that we are besmirching a legacy means a hoot in comparison to the need of this community to look after the harm caused to innocents, however belatedly. Like everyone else, I didn't WANT to believe the truth of someone I knew for nearly 40 years, though not well, and worked with a few times, etc. But the fact is that word has gone out in the musical community that these allegations are true. If you don't want to take my word for it, and don't have access to other people close to the situation, and don't want to believe what people like Atkinson and Daivd Lindley are on record as saying, fine.

As for the rest, read between the lines. Grand jury proceedings in the US are secret, and are followed by a dismissal or an indictment. The story I am hearing is that the indictment was forthcoming, but until it hit, there could be no official record of anything.

The thread at santacruz.com has been plagued by much more of this kind of "it-can't-be-true-because-I-can't-google-it" stuff, often accompanied by name-calling and even attacks on the victims. I'm signing these comments to say that some of us have access to people close enough to know, and we don't need google. And no one this is true of is defending Brozman at this point; that should tell you enough.

Duck Baker


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:13 PM

I split up the threads, not all mods were in agreement, but last night it seemed a good move to keep the obit a music thread, and the speculation in separate place. Future scholarship may agree or disagree with that move.

I grew up with a mother who was an MSW - Psychiatric social worker who worked for a state child protective services department. The stories I heard - you don't want to know what some folks get up to around children. If the allegations are true, he deserved every awful thing that incarceration holds for child molesters. I've been reading obit threads at Mudcat for a lot of years, and the general consensus I've come away with is that most readers prefer the obit to stay a traditional obit, and let the discussion of private non-music stuff stay out of it. The Jimmy Savile thread was a mess and is the most recent example I had in mind. So, for the scholarship-minded folks who frequent Mudcat, I split the discussion in two.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,another guest.
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:33 PM

SRS, there is no argument here. The man ABUSED CHILDREN. Anything else is, by comparison, unimportant. Taking down our posts or hiding them on another thread isn't going to make this go away. You say "In the more distant future, scholars wanting to research the music of Bob Brozman may find the obit thread and the links people posted to interviews and music, and they will find reminiscences of people musically influenced by him." Do you really think anyone will care about the "music" of a PEDOPHILE? Get real.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,I knew the bastard
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:49 PM

Splitting the discussion is a lame chickenshit move. In light of what we now know the music is meaningless. The man was a fucking pedophile. A monster. His legacy is that of an abuser of children. His obit will reflect that, sooner or later.

I can't believe SRS thought this through. To try to separate this from his music is nuts. I don't think I'll ever be able to listen to him without throwing up.

Scholarship minded? Really? The only important thing here, as Mr. Baker pointed out, is to get the word out, let as many victims as possible know that it's okay to come forward. Your decision is a disgrace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:50 PM

You're welcome to your opinion. No good deed goes unpunished.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:58 PM

And scholars researching Adolf Hitler's paintings may not want to know that he killed 6 million Jews...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:12 PM

When all of the conjecture and research are piled onto the obit thread, you're not hurting Brozman, as much as you'd like to. You're beating up on his family and friends who, I am sure, are struggling mightily with all of the information coming to light. I told you who I am so you won't beat up on the other moderators in your fury to exact justice. Complex questions and comparing Brozman to Hitler is a good start.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:20 PM

I can't really say what his family and friends are feeling right now. It must be hard for them and rather confusing but I can imagine how his putative victims might feel if, while looking for information, they stumble onto a folk site where people are lauding and paying tribute to this apparent pedophile. If we're going to err in the Brozman affair it's best to do it on behalf of his victims until this thing is sorted out. Scholarship can wait and Brozman's reputation can be rehabilitated if he's exonerated. Moving these posts down here was the right thing to do as long as you suspend his obit page for the time being.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:27 PM

the king of bongo-bong sez:

"As for the rest, read between the lines. Grand jury proceedings in the US are secret, and are followed by a dismissal or an indictment. The story I am hearing is that the indictment was forthcoming, but until it hit, there could be no official record of anything."

true, uhhh, wouldn't one expect a dismissal, means that no evidence that would stand up in court was uncovered?

if a witness testifies s/he observed Brozman engaged in illegal activity, that's admissable evidence that must be coraborated with similar quality evidence.

All of your evidence is hearsay, thus inadmissable.

I don't care about Brozman. I am concerned about the Salem witch trial gig engulfing this and related boards.

For that matter, I posesses no evidence at this time to differentiate "Duck Baker" from a virus on a Linux server.

s.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,stevesg
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:29 PM

sorry for the anon. post


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:16 PM

Well, I guess I expected to be attacked personally for saying who I am, just as others are being attacked for NOT saying who they are, but really, that fact in itself SHOULD tell people with half a brain how sure I am of what's going on. If I wasn't, I wouldn't open myself up to such attacks. But how stupid is the attack itself? NO - one wouldn't expect a dismissal, not based on anything anyone has said. IF there was no indictment coming, why did Bob take his life? Pain in his hands? Please!! It was because, as everyone has been saying, the indictment was on the way, and from how I read Gary's statement, he was asked to make a statement exactly for the purposes of corroborating other evidence. I have talked to many people who have spoken to those making the allegations, so to disbelieve you have to think that Gary Atkinson, one of Bob's ex-wives, and another person whom I could identify but won't because I'm not sure she has identified herself - you have to believe that they all have lied. You have to believe that people like David Lindley and myself don't know more about it than you, that the musicians in the SC area who have assured me that it's all real don't know, or that Iim just lying about what's being said. You think I'm not Duck Baker? Send an email to my website and I'll confirm that I posted here. And WHY would I do all this? Just for the joy of engaging with people who have nothing better to do than stir things up because the situation isn't already ugly enough to suit them? Does it seem likely I have nothing at all to do but that?

I also did hear indirectly that the story about the indictment was tacitly confirmed by someone working at the SC courthouse. That would be hearsay if we were in court, but we ain't. We're here in the real world. Based on that alone I wouldn't make any claims, but added to the rest of it, the conclusion is inescapable.

And what evidence do YOU have? Have YOU talked to any of those directly involved? How many people connected to the Santa Cruz music community are YOU in touch with?

None, no, and none, right? What a shock!

If you want to act like you're defending Brozman from a witch hunt, good luck convincing anyone else. I've already responded to several messages from people thanking me for coming out and saying what the community close to Bob already knows. I kind of doubt anyone is going to thank you.

I don't intend to address such distractions again. My aim is, has been, and will be to remove doubts about this for the purpose of helping victims. Had Brozman not taken the easy way out, the indictment would have removed all doubts for anyone not in complete denial, but I don't even know what it would take for something "official" to happen in that regard now, and the idea that we should wait around for it is preposterous.

Sincerely, Duck Baker


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:59 PM

Mr. Baker is a respected guitarist who travels in these circles. Mr. Atkinson worked with Brozman on his book and on tours. The former Mrs. Brozman has also posted. The question is, why would these people lie? What do they have to gain by that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:02 PM

Amidst the recent jaw-dropping revelations about Bob Brozman there are those of us who knew him that are wondering how this stuff got by us. I never heard anything like this in the 40 years I knew him. No one said anything about it; not one word in all that time, in confidence, by rumor or anything. He sure kept it well hidden or at least disguised. Had I known things would have been different to say the least. Nothing is more vile than victimizing a child. Nothing. This all is a game-changer. Everything is different now, talent or no talent. Poor little kids. How do we deal with the destruction of that kind of innocence? I wish I would have known sooner. D.Lindley


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Andy Alexis
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:02 PM

On santacruz.com, you will see one of my comments on the story; my family faced a similar situation, abuse of one of my siblings by a charismatic, creative (and trusted!) individual, with many of the same outraged responses from disbelievers after it was made public on TV by forces beyond our control.   

In our case, there were many others abused by this individual that have never come forward; many never even told their own families. Only two brave individuals did in our case. Despite the already lurid nature of the TV coverage we got, I know for a fact that many of the actual details were even more explosive than what was reported.

So this is to say that the truth of these abuse cases is much worse than you will ever know. The victims of his abuse will be spending the rest of their lives recovering. Like David Lindley said, "this changes everything".

Andy Alexis in California


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Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:18 PM

So if anyone wants to know where the rest of the thread, you know, the part about Bob Brozman the pedophile went, it's here: http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=150697&messages=35

Burn in hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:37 PM

Thank you, Duck Baker. Much appreciated. His first wife never went by the name of Brozman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:39 PM

I am just glad that a sort of unified front is now presented so that those who have been doubting can see that it's not just a bunch of made-up nonsense. I am not close enough to know many details, just close enough to know that the allegations must be taken seriously. Of that there can be no doubt at all.

If we can help just one innocent to seek support even five minutes sooner by being clear that those close to the situation are generally in agreement, that is that only thing that seems to matter at this point.

Let that be our aim now, please

Duck Baker


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:47 PM

I have to say, it worries me a bit that he traveled so much to other countries...just saw an old thread on the IGS forum where he claimed that he did that because he could not afford to travel in the US. Puh-leeez. I think most people know that Shep Brozman's son didn't have to worry about money...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:55 PM

Especially not since Shep died.

The worry is for all the homes he stayed in, all over the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:56 PM

He was wealthy and didn't have to do anything. Looking at where his travels took him you have to at least wonder...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:59 PM

What ever happened to due process?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:02 PM

What ever happened to due process? Whether this is true or not shouldn't this be proven first before the social media makes indictments?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:07 PM

Whatever happened to reading the posts in the thread before commenting? There will be no indictment now that he took the escape route that he did, and if the importance of getting the truth out isn't apparent, one can only assume you haven't read what's on this page.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:17 PM

It is not crucial whether the late subject was guilty, sort of guilty, very guilty...or even not guilty. *I* don't know the 'truth', and I must just shake my head at having to accept the stated word of some who claim they DO know the truth.

The point 'should' be that 'proving' this allegation to the world at large does little good. If those who knew him wish to explain it to one another, so be it. No particular good will come of arm waving and yelling about GUILT. We all know child abuse is a terrible thing, and we all should do our best to identify problem individuals while it is relevant. This rancor and posturing serves little purpose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:26 PM

Note that no one who is remotely close to the guy or his family has denied a thing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:31 PM

Do you really think anyone will care about the "music" of a PEDOPHILE?

You mean like Schubert and Britten? Yes, I do think they'll care.

Get a grip. There are things worse than paedophilia, and one of them is turning our whole society into a paranoic hell driven by panics like the witch craze. We can respond to this without all the hysterical crap. Raving outrage is nobody's moral duty.

(I appreciate Duck Baker putting his name to his comments - that gives them a lot more credibility).


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:18 PM

"There are things worse than paedophilia"

No - not really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Midchuck
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:55 PM

Actually, Pedophilia means being sexually attracted to children. It is commonly misunderstood to mean acting upon that attraction. Your best friend could be a pedophile, but keep his actual behavior under control, and you'd never know it. Actual child molestation is what's the evil thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Santa Cruzan
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:27 PM

From Judith Herman's Book TRAUMA AND RECOVERY:

Sharing the traumatic experience with others is a precondition for the restitution of a sense of a meaningful world. In this process, the survivor seeks assistance not only from those closest to her but also from the wider community. The response of the community has a powerful influence on the ultimate resolution of the trauma. Restoration of the breach between the traumatized person and the community depends, first, upon public acknowledgment of the traumatic event and, second, upon some form of community action. Once it is publicly recognized that a person has been harmed, the community must take action to assign responsibility for the harm and to repair the injury. These two responses- recognition and restitution- are necessary to rebuild the survivor's sense of order and justice.


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