Bob Brozman legal issues

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Potato fingers
Date: 03 May 13 - 08:34 AM

From the Santa Cruz News:


Gary Atkison (ex U.K. tour agent)Thu, May 02, 2013 - 12:01 pm
Because of the number of word restrictions, I am sending this message in two parts.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble here, but if you don't make it easy for readers to contact the editor directly then this sort of thing can happen.
You'll learn my qualifications for making the following statement in a moment. But let's begin with the difficult stuff first. 
Bob Brozman committed suicide on Tuesday evening, 23rd April 2013, shortly after learning that he was to be taken to court for the severe sexual abuse of a child. This abuse happened some years ago spanning a period of time from when his victim was a toddler through to being a young teenager. In more recent years he repeated this abuse on another under age person. All of his victims were well known to him. In addition, I tell can you that whilst he was in the U.K. 1994 on tour, he sexually abused my own daughter who, at the time, was nine years old. I have never forgiven him and I never will.
My name is Gary Atkinson and I live in the U.K.. I was Bob's tour agent between 1988 and 1994. On the back of one major concert at the ICA in London, I arranged his first significant tour here. And even though I had not done anything like this before, I managed to get together for him ten or twelve dates. 
We first met at London's Heathrow Airport. His flight was nearly twenty-four hours late! And he had been in the plane for that entire amount of time. As soon as he walked into the arrivals hall, loaded down with guitars and suitcases, I made him go straight to the bathroom and change into his stage clothes, after which, I bundled him into the car and we took a white knuckled car ride into the West of London where he was to headline a major concert, showcasing some of the finest slide guitarist in the world. After such a long and tiring journey from when he first set off from home, most people would have walked onto the stage, said "Hello" to the audience and then curled up under the chair and then said "Good night". Instead, Bob walked on, looking and acting like he had just had a month's vacation in Hawaii and as fresh as a daisy, he launched into one of the most energetic and powerful acoustic sets that I had ever seen.
Unlike most tour agents and artist's managers I always toured with the artists that I represented. I did the driving, I acted as stage crew, I helped with the sound checking, I would arrange interviews with everyone from music magazines to appearances on National TV and radio. Hotels, restaurants, banks, doctors. You name it. I even got up and joined him with my own guitar for half of the second set. Bob was an immediate success. The tours grew, year by year. By the fourth year we embarked upon the biggest tour so far. Nearly seventy dates, spread just a little over three months, including clubs, theatres, arts centres, concerts, festivals and even private parties that were prepared to pay his highest fee.  And those sixty something dates didn't include interviews, workshops, recording dates etc.
I tell you this because, as a result of all of this activity Bob and became very, very close. From that first meeting at the airport, we got on like the proverbial house on fire. We agreed that we had become like "blood brothers". In addition, he was welcomed into the hearts, minds, venues and often, homes of people up and down and around the British Isles. He couldn't go wrong… Could he?
Reply to this comment
Gary AtkinsonThu, May 02, 2013 - 12:02 pm
When a travelling artist, such as musician, is on the road there is one thing that is at the top of the code of do's and dont's.  Among all of the contracts for every date, interview, TV and radio appearance and recording session, there are also unwritten contracts of trust and moral behaviour. Bob, like so many, lived a here today, gone tomorrow life. He was idolised and had audiences in the palm of his hand. Yes, he put his trust in all of those that were prepared to further his career but he was also put into a position of trust by hundreds, if not thousands of people around the world who just wanted to help Bob Brozman because they loved him and loved what he did as an artist. This came as everything from handshakes by adoring fans or the free use of family homes by patrons of the venues, all done to help him and encourage him on his way.
I'm not going to go into details, but, for me, that trust was shattered in 1994 when Bob tried to take advantage of his "blood brother's " daughter. I confronted him about it and he would not admit to anything. There was a witness. My daughter's friend, also nine years old but she would not speak out. As a result, I quickly wound down the tour and had nothing to do with Bob again… until recently.
The first victim's mother had been relentlessly trying to press charges against Bob for some time. The second mother's victim was also fighting for justice. Bob denied everything and the local law enforcement agency were frustrating efforts by not taking individual allegations seriously. Bob thought he was on safe ground and in doing so tried to paint a picture of crazed opportunists trying to exhort him for his not insubstantial wealth.
More recently, I was contacted by the parents of the victims and from 6,000 miles away I did my best to support and encourage them. At times they were exhausted in their quest to get justice for their loved ones, whilst at the same time Bob proceeded to win the love, adoration and accolades from audiences around the world.
But even more recently as the result of the dogged persistence of the victim's parents a court case was announced. Bob panicked and quickly changed his tact, offering a significant "out of court" payment for the first victim. Of course, this is an admission of guilt in anyone's book. However, Bob would have known that such a settlement does not stop a case going to court and every court has the media reporters in attendance. For Bob the game was going to be up.
All of those years ago, Bob explained to me why he did what he did as a performer. Despite the fact that he really didn't need to work, certainly as much he did on his endless tours around the world, he fed off the audiences before him. He told me that he desperately needed their recognition, approval and acceptance. 
With what was about to happen, coming straight towards him like an unstoppable express train, he knew that all of that trust, the praise and adoration was about to be shattered monumentally and he would be revealed for what he was.
I know that I cannot put everyone right about the real Bob Brozman and I don't blame millions of people for thinking that he was one Hell of a guy because of what they have seen at the shows and read in the papers, magazines and on the internet. But I will inform, where articles such as this have been written.  Either, take the article down or do some proper journalism, find out the facts and tell the truth. The article as it is, is offensive to those involved.

From Bob's first wife:

My friend, Gary Atkinson, just called out the media for these worshipful pieces. Gary came forward and said it, Bob was a pedofile and about to go down. This is why he killed himself. My understanding is many, many people in the music world know. God knows I've been doing my best to receive justice for my loved one for years. Another thing, how many days did it take for the cause of death to come out? Well all one had to do was call the SC County Coroners office, as I did. In the garage, carbon monoxide and notes were left. Yes Bob was a musical genius. He was one when I met him in 1975. But he did great damage to at least 3 families that I know of and has caused decades of harm to at least one mother/daughter relationship. Domestic Violence and crimes against children have a way of affecting generations of people. Yes there are also grandchildren now. Please see Gary's comment on SantaCruz.com. It is in response to an almost unreadable peice of hero worship. He lays it out quite compelling since Bob molested his daughter also. Bob was not a good man and left a heartbreaking legacy.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 13 - 05:18 PM

If there is a way for the message to get to Bob's first wife, I would only assure her that I never, ever heard another report or rumor of this conduct. Not to say that I doubt her at all, but only to say that the impression that many musicians knew of this and did nothing may not be true at all. I will only add, as tactfully as possible, that many of his peers found Bob difficult on a personal level and were therefore not snowed by him or anything or that sort. I never bought the story about taking his life because he couldn't play like he used to. For any father to do that, that would seem impossible, though the story that he was in pain seemed credible. But that was before hearing this incredible news, which makes it obvious that none of us knew him.

My own inquiries seem to indicate that these awful allegations are true, and my heart goes out to anyone who has been damaged by this, and to their families. My only aim here is to assure them that this was not at all known to those of us in the music business; I wasn't close to Bob but have friends who were, and none of them knew.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,steve s
Date: 03 May 13 - 05:46 PM

I have done a cursory inet search and communicated with some friends in the biz, and I can't confirm the above allegations. However, "Gary Atkison" is real, and has an association with Brozman. I advise caution esp. anonymous confirmation, as in the post above me.

steve senderoff

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 May 13 - 07:12 PM

It would seem to me that further comment, either eulogistic or speculative, would be well advised to be witheld until an official announcement has been made from the relevant authorities which would either confirm or deny that there was an impending prosecution.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 13 - 04:47 AM

I explained the reason for my previous post as having been made not to confirm anything but to hopefully send a message. It was anonymous because I'm a performing musician and want no part of amy controversy. Had I not satisfied myself about the probability of Mr. Atkinson's claims I would not have posted anything, but I am, as I said, not here to convince anyone of anything, one way or the other. I'm afraid that the truth will emerge anyway, but I'm not close enough to events to confirm anything, anyway. Really, all I can confirm is that the people who work in the same musical world never heard of any such behavior and my aim has only been to ease the impression on the part of Bob's wife that his peer group was covering for him.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Gene-Adelphi
Date: 05 May 13 - 06:29 AM

RE: Bob Brozman Obit...

To: Murray McLeod, and the other "naysayers", Et Al

Murray, the very LAST thing that ANYONE that has a potential (personal) "interest" in, or personal knowlege of (one way or the other) of this (horrific) "Brozman" situation should do is to "... with-hold comment....", with the exception, of course, of any MORE speculative &/or opinioned commentary, with which I totally agree with you.
However, waiting for an "...official announcement" regarding the factual details regarding Brozman's "alleged" pedophilia, is the equivalent of "...waiting for Godot", it will NEVER HAPPEN THAT WAY MY FRIEND!

The ONLY way that the truth will become known is by some of the serious blues & folk researchers, in residence here, doing the same serious Scholarly research that they do when researching the ENTIRE details of Robert Johnson's death but instead regarding Bob Brozman's death...this IS NOT rocket science my friends!

My personal researches seem to indicate that the "allegations" of pedophilia on Brozman's part are "in fact" true.

If so the ramifications are fucking horrific!!! How many Brozman fans out there have allowed "Uncle Bob" to crash at their house alone with their young children over these 20 or 30 years? How many of their children were NOT believed when telling their parents about "Uncle Bobs" touching? How many such children are in total denial & suffering years of psychiatric intervention? How many such young teens & young adults need understanding and "closure" over such abuse?

Well obviously I don't know (yet), but I'm VERY pessimistic about the ultimate possibilities, nay probabilities!!

I bring to your attention the theory known as Occam's Razor....the quick version goes something like this: In general, the simplest explanation for a given phenomenon, is predictably/generally the "correct" one.

You will not hear the truth from the family or the authorities, however, deep research into the CA court system (before it's expunged) will surely produce the public access documents such as CA vs Brozman, etc. pursuant to which the Subpoena was issued!!

It's there guys...........DAMMIT, go find it! PLEASE!!!

Gene R., Pres.
Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
BBM Publ., ASCAP
NARAS

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 May 13 - 07:21 AM

The evidence in this thread doesn't suggest that Brozman was such a total loose cannon as to be a risk to every child he encountered in the music scene. If he had been, word would have got around long ago (as it did with Jimmy Savile).

Rampant monsters sell more papers and ad space than grey and boring truth. So Rupert Murdoch has a bottom-line motivation for escalating every case of paedophilia that way. I doubt if Gene R does.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 May 13 - 11:43 AM

I fear this thread may limp along like the UK obit thread for Jimmy Savile did. It is a tragedy when someone is as flawed an individual as Mr. Brozman apparently was. He doesn't get a pass because he was also musically very talented.

It is better for those who are grieving, who might be looking for solace, to find a straight obituary thread with memories from friends and fans. Where does the talent and the sum of all of his recorded performances belong when the flawed individual who falls from grace (and then some) is shown to have had feet of clay via a criminal private life?

Keep the speculation about criminal behavior and proceedings over on this thread.

Thanks. Message edited to make sense in this new location.
SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Another guest
Date: 05 May 13 - 05:34 PM

Silly River Sage, I have to disagree. Pedophilia is fucking evil, pure and simple. I'll withdraw this if it turns out to be untrue but at this moment as one who knew Bob I have to say in my heart I believe it is the truth. I'm not piling on. But his fame and his wealth couldn't protect him from the truth any more. Word needs to get out. Other victims will come forward and still others need to know that it's okay to come forward. All the talent in the world does not balance the fact that there was a totally evil monster in our midst and its name was Bob Brozman. His contributions will be a simple footnote. He should have gassed himself years ago.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 May 13 - 07:58 PM

Word needs to get out for whom, "another guest?" He's gone. You're only hurting his friends and family now. And I'm not saying it shouldn't be out, but not necessarily in the obituary thread. It's unseemly. Start a new thread and we can move the accusations over there. Let his friends and family suffer in peace. They have a lot to be angry about without your righteous indignation. Go read my post again. I'm not giving him a pass. I think you ought to give a care to those around him who are now incredibly shocked and are mourning many things, not just his death.

SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Another guest.
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:16 PM

I respectfully disagree. There is NOTHING more reprehensible, more evil than victimizing children. I feel for his friends and his family but this is bigger. This story needs to be told everywhere. I'll say it again, and again and again, anywhere I can say it: There was a totally evil monster in our midst and its name was Bob Brozman.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,stevesg
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:06 PM

_hey trolls and sock puppets_

criminal cases are not on line accessible in the database of the CA Superior Court serving the Santa Cruz area--only civil proceedings. They show Brozman's divorce and a probate process involving Haley, both not recent.

all allegations trace back to "Gary Atkison" and posts that may or may not be from Brozman's ex-wife.

_nothing_ can be confirmed or verified.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:27 PM

Gary Atkinson runs Document Records and has confirmed that he posted the information. He is also a co-author of brozman's national guitars book.

David Lindley and Paul Hostetter have weighed in online to say they are stunned and dismayed...but did not say they don't believe it.

No one from brozman's family or inner circle has denied or countered the charges. In fact, they have issued no statement whatsoever...not even an obituary or death notice in the local paper.

Much as I hate to admit it, this awful stuff has the ring of truth.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Another guest
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:26 AM

I'm surprised and dismayed to see mudcat engaging in censorship of any kind. Brozman was a monster, a hideous, evil monster.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:53 AM

i think as they grieve they need to grieve for the whole truth, whatever that is...otherwise, if they grieve the man they thought they knew, and then the truth came out, it would be even more devastating..although if this is true they undoubtedly have been notified.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie)
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:45 AM

What the hell is happening here? There have been many contributions and questions raised by people who knew Bob Brozman very well - now they have mysteriously disappeared. OK, obviously the slasher had a reason but surely we are due an explanation rather than to be treated like naughty children!

Eddie

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,BoudiceaBlues
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:53 AM

Censorship!!?? Innocent until proven guilty, I understand, but freedom of speech. Shame on you! Some of the, Mothers, Parents of the victim's, now survivors, DESERVED to be heard, in this community of musicians, etc. Music is where we as songwriters,musicians and artists go when we can't express ourselves.This site is also another place, with Mudcat, that we can come and keep the origins of music alive. AND feel free to say what we need to say, about the rusty strings sounding better, and things we maybe couldn't say to our RL friends.. Being a purist doesn't mean "editing" out the biography. Let us also, not make this the Altamont, to a very beautiful and inclusive musical movement.One that is an important geneology of American music as well as the, again, all inclusive World music.

Love and Power to those who need it, and all of us who need eachother right now!

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:55 AM

Someone earlier said ' this thread may well run like the Jimmy Savile thing in the UK ' yes it will, like this thread, when rumours started that Savile was a paedophile people rushed to defend Saint Jimmy until the truth finally surfaced about him, I suspect this will happen about Brozman too.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie)
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:03 AM

I commented, rather angrily, on the obit thread, before this one appeared. I now apologise although a link would have helped.

Eddie1

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:19 AM

What can possibly justify the removal of posts pertaining to facts here? Particularly when what is at stake is the possibility that other people targeted by this predator can finally feel free to speak out. I posted several days ago anonymously after having spoken to enough people to feel very sure that the allegations were true, not giving my name because as a working musician in the same general field I wanted to avoid controversy. Then, after speaking to enough people to be very certain, I posted using my name but my comment never appeared. I have been very moderate in saying what needed saying, and I'm telling anyone who cares that, if they follow the story back to the community of musicians in the Santa Cruz area, or to people who know Gary Atkinson who first made the allegations public (still viewable on the santacraz.com site), you will no longer be in doubt. I don't mind at this point having my name here; neither the perception of me by those who would choose to remain in denial nor the idea that we are besmirching a legacy means a hoot in comparison to the need of this community to look after the harm caused to innocents, however belatedly. Like everyone else, I didn't WANT to believe the truth of someone I knew for nearly 40 years, though not well, and worked with a few times, etc. But the fact is that word has gone out in the musical community that these allegations are true. If you don't want to take my word for it, and don't have access to other people close to the situation, and don't want to believe what people like Atkinson and Daivd Lindley are on record as saying, fine. But there can be no excuse for censuring comments that speak to these things. None whatsoever.

I certainly hope I don't have to stop visiting this site over this. My aim and that of others speaking from being close enough to have a clear view is to help victims. Nothing else matters at this point. If mudcat can't see that much, the waters must be muddy indeed in your world.

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,Anon
Date: 06 May 13 - 09:21 AM

Victimizing children. There is nothing worse. One cannot help but wonder about the trips to all those third world countries. The man's "contributions" as a musician are worthless now. Everything he did is tainted by this, the most monstrous of crimes. I'm convinced that it is true. I am convinced that Bob Brozman was an evil, evil man. I'm glad he's gone and I wish he'd done this years ago. There is NO defense for this. No extenuating circumstances. If I never hear a note of his "music" again it'll be way too soon. Burn in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:05 AM

Understandably enough, no one has been sure how to deal with this, and now some comments are here and some on the other page. I'm going to paste the substance of my last comment on the other site, editing out the complaints made when I thought the comments about abuse were being censured. To those who are worried about Bob's family and so on, wake up - the issue now is ONLY about victims, especially those as yet unidentified.

What is at stake is the possibility that other people targeted by this predator can finally feel free to speak out. I posted several days ago anonymously after having spoken to enough people to feel very sure that the allegations were true, not giving my name because as a working musician in the same general field I wanted to avoid controversy. Then, after speaking to enough people to be very certain, I posted using my name. I have been very moderate in saying what needed saying, and I'm telling anyone who cares that, if they follow the story back to the community of musicians in the Santa Cruz area, or to people who know Gary Atkinson who first made the allegations public, you will no longer be in doubt. I don't mind at this point having my name here; neither the perception of me by those who would choose to remain in denial nor the idea that we are besmirching a legacy means a hoot in comparison to the need of this community to look after the harm caused to innocents, however belatedly. Like everyone else, I didn't WANT to believe the truth of someone I knew for nearly 40 years, though not well, and worked with a few times, etc. But the fact is that word has gone out in the musical community that these allegations are true. If you don't want to take my word for it, and don't have access to other people close to the situation, and don't want to believe what people like Atkinson and Daivd Lindley are on record as saying, fine.

As for the rest, read between the lines. Grand jury proceedings in the US are secret, and are followed by a dismissal or an indictment. The story I am hearing is that the indictment was forthcoming, but until it hit, there could be no official record of anything.

The thread at santacruz.com has been plagued by much more of this kind of "it-can't-be-true-because-I-can't-google-it" stuff, often accompanied by name-calling and even attacks on the victims. I'm signing these comments to say that some of us have access to people close enough to know, and we don't need google. And no one this is true of is defending Brozman at this point; that should tell you enough.

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:13 PM

I split up the threads, not all mods were in agreement, but last night it seemed a good move to keep the obit a music thread, and the speculation in separate place. Future scholarship may agree or disagree with that move.

I grew up with a mother who was an MSW - Psychiatric social worker who worked for a state child protective services department. The stories I heard - you don't want to know what some folks get up to around children. If the allegations are true, he deserved every awful thing that incarceration holds for child molesters. I've been reading obit threads at Mudcat for a lot of years, and the general consensus I've come away with is that most readers prefer the obit to stay a traditional obit, and let the discussion of private non-music stuff stay out of it. The Jimmy Savile thread was a mess and is the most recent example I had in mind. So, for the scholarship-minded folks who frequent Mudcat, I split the discussion in two.

SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST,another guest.
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:33 PM

SRS, there is no argument here. The man ABUSED CHILDREN. Anything else is, by comparison, unimportant. Taking down our posts or hiding them on another thread isn't going to make this go away. You say "In the more distant future, scholars wanting to research the music of Bob Brozman may find the obit thread and the links people posted to interviews and music, and they will find reminiscences of people musically influenced by him." Do you really think anyone will care about the "music" of a PEDOPHILE? Get real.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,I knew the bastard
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:49 PM

Splitting the discussion is a lame chickenshit move. In light of what we now know the music is meaningless. The man was a fucking pedophile. A monster. His legacy is that of an abuser of children. His obit will reflect that, sooner or later.

I can't believe SRS thought this through. To try to separate this from his music is nuts. I don't think I'll ever be able to listen to him without throwing up.

Scholarship minded? Really? The only important thing here, as Mr. Baker pointed out, is to get the word out, let as many victims as possible know that it's okay to come forward. Your decision is a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:50 PM

You're welcome to your opinion. No good deed goes unpunished.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:58 PM

And scholars researching Adolf Hitler's paintings may not want to know that he killed 6 million Jews...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:12 PM

When all of the conjecture and research are piled onto the obit thread, you're not hurting Brozman, as much as you'd like to. You're beating up on his family and friends who, I am sure, are struggling mightily with all of the information coming to light. I told you who I am so you won't beat up on the other moderators in your fury to exact justice. Complex questions and comparing Brozman to Hitler is a good start.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:20 PM

I can't really say what his family and friends are feeling right now. It must be hard for them and rather confusing but I can imagine how his putative victims might feel if, while looking for information, they stumble onto a folk site where people are lauding and paying tribute to this apparent pedophile. If we're going to err in the Brozman affair it's best to do it on behalf of his victims until this thing is sorted out. Scholarship can wait and Brozman's reputation can be rehabilitated if he's exonerated. Moving these posts down here was the right thing to do as long as you suspend his obit page for the time being.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:27 PM

the king of bongo-bong sez:

"As for the rest, read between the lines. Grand jury proceedings in the US are secret, and are followed by a dismissal or an indictment. The story I am hearing is that the indictment was forthcoming, but until it hit, there could be no official record of anything."

true, uhhh, wouldn't one expect a dismissal, means that no evidence that would stand up in court was uncovered?

if a witness testifies s/he observed Brozman engaged in illegal activity, that's admissable evidence that must be coraborated with similar quality evidence.

All of your evidence is hearsay, thus inadmissable.

I don't care about Brozman. I am concerned about the Salem witch trial gig engulfing this and related boards.

For that matter, I posesses no evidence at this time to differentiate "Duck Baker" from a virus on a Linux server.

s.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,stevesg
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:29 PM

sorry for the anon. post

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:16 PM

Well, I guess I expected to be attacked personally for saying who I am, just as others are being attacked for NOT saying who they are, but really, that fact in itself SHOULD tell people with half a brain how sure I am of what's going on. If I wasn't, I wouldn't open myself up to such attacks. But how stupid is the attack itself? NO - one wouldn't expect a dismissal, not based on anything anyone has said. IF there was no indictment coming, why did Bob take his life? Pain in his hands? Please!! It was because, as everyone has been saying, the indictment was on the way, and from how I read Gary's statement, he was asked to make a statement exactly for the purposes of corroborating other evidence. I have talked to many people who have spoken to those making the allegations, so to disbelieve you have to think that Gary Atkinson, one of Bob's ex-wives, and another person whom I could identify but won't because I'm not sure she has identified herself - you have to believe that they all have lied. You have to believe that people like David Lindley and myself don't know more about it than you, that the musicians in the SC area who have assured me that it's all real don't know, or that Iim just lying about what's being said. You think I'm not Duck Baker? Send an email to my website and I'll confirm that I posted here. And WHY would I do all this? Just for the joy of engaging with people who have nothing better to do than stir things up because the situation isn't already ugly enough to suit them? Does it seem likely I have nothing at all to do but that?

I also did hear indirectly that the story about the indictment was tacitly confirmed by someone working at the SC courthouse. That would be hearsay if we were in court, but we ain't. We're here in the real world. Based on that alone I wouldn't make any claims, but added to the rest of it, the conclusion is inescapable.

And what evidence do YOU have? Have YOU talked to any of those directly involved? How many people connected to the Santa Cruz music community are YOU in touch with?

None, no, and none, right? What a shock!

If you want to act like you're defending Brozman from a witch hunt, good luck convincing anyone else. I've already responded to several messages from people thanking me for coming out and saying what the community close to Bob already knows. I kind of doubt anyone is going to thank you.

I don't intend to address such distractions again. My aim is, has been, and will be to remove doubts about this for the purpose of helping victims. Had Brozman not taken the easy way out, the indictment would have removed all doubts for anyone not in complete denial, but I don't even know what it would take for something "official" to happen in that regard now, and the idea that we should wait around for it is preposterous.

Sincerely, Duck Baker

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:59 PM

Mr. Baker is a respected guitarist who travels in these circles. Mr. Atkinson worked with Brozman on his book and on tours. The former Mrs. Brozman has also posted. The question is, why would these people lie? What do they have to gain by that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:02 PM

Amidst the recent jaw-dropping revelations about Bob Brozman there are those of us who knew him that are wondering how this stuff got by us. I never heard anything like this in the 40 years I knew him. No one said anything about it; not one word in all that time, in confidence, by rumor or anything. He sure kept it well hidden or at least disguised. Had I known things would have been different to say the least. Nothing is more vile than victimizing a child. Nothing. This all is a game-changer. Everything is different now, talent or no talent. Poor little kids. How do we deal with the destruction of that kind of innocence? I wish I would have known sooner. D.Lindley

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Andy Alexis
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:02 PM

On santacruz.com, you will see one of my comments on the story; my family faced a similar situation, abuse of one of my siblings by a charismatic, creative (and trusted!) individual, with many of the same outraged responses from disbelievers after it was made public on TV by forces beyond our control.   

In our case, there were many others abused by this individual that have never come forward; many never even told their own families. Only two brave individuals did in our case. Despite the already lurid nature of the TV coverage we got, I know for a fact that many of the actual details were even more explosive than what was reported.

So this is to say that the truth of these abuse cases is much worse than you will ever know. The victims of his abuse will be spending the rest of their lives recovering. Like David Lindley said, "this changes everything".

Andy Alexis in California

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:18 PM

So if anyone wants to know where the rest of the thread, you know, the part about Bob Brozman the pedophile went, it's here: http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=150697&messages=35

Burn in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:37 PM

Thank you, Duck Baker. Much appreciated. His first wife never went by the name of Brozman.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:39 PM

I am just glad that a sort of unified front is now presented so that those who have been doubting can see that it's not just a bunch of made-up nonsense. I am not close enough to know many details, just close enough to know that the allegations must be taken seriously. Of that there can be no doubt at all.

If we can help just one innocent to seek support even five minutes sooner by being clear that those close to the situation are generally in agreement, that is that only thing that seems to matter at this point.

Let that be our aim now, please

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:47 PM

I have to say, it worries me a bit that he traveled so much to other countries...just saw an old thread on the IGS forum where he claimed that he did that because he could not afford to travel in the US. Puh-leeez. I think most people know that Shep Brozman's son didn't have to worry about money...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:55 PM

Especially not since Shep died.

The worry is for all the homes he stayed in, all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:56 PM

He was wealthy and didn't have to do anything. Looking at where his travels took him you have to at least wonder...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:59 PM

What ever happened to due process?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:02 PM

What ever happened to due process? Whether this is true or not shouldn't this be proven first before the social media makes indictments?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:07 PM

Whatever happened to reading the posts in the thread before commenting? There will be no indictment now that he took the escape route that he did, and if the importance of getting the truth out isn't apparent, one can only assume you haven't read what's on this page.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:17 PM

It is not crucial whether the late subject was guilty, sort of guilty, very guilty...or even not guilty. *I* don't know the 'truth', and I must just shake my head at having to accept the stated word of some who claim they DO know the truth.

The point 'should' be that 'proving' this allegation to the world at large does little good. If those who knew him wish to explain it to one another, so be it. No particular good will come of arm waving and yelling about GUILT. We all know child abuse is a terrible thing, and we all should do our best to identify problem individuals while it is relevant. This rancor and posturing serves little purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:26 PM

Note that no one who is remotely close to the guy or his family has denied a thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:31 PM

Do you really think anyone will care about the "music" of a PEDOPHILE?

You mean like Schubert and Britten? Yes, I do think they'll care.

Get a grip. There are things worse than paedophilia, and one of them is turning our whole society into a paranoic hell driven by panics like the witch craze. We can respond to this without all the hysterical crap. Raving outrage is nobody's moral duty.

(I appreciate Duck Baker putting his name to his comments - that gives them a lot more credibility).

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:18 PM

"There are things worse than paedophilia"

No - not really.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Midchuck
Date: 06 May 13 - 07:55 PM

Actually, Pedophilia means being sexually attracted to children. It is commonly misunderstood to mean acting upon that attraction. Your best friend could be a pedophile, but keep his actual behavior under control, and you'd never know it. Actual child molestation is what's the evil thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Santa Cruzan
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:27 PM

From Judith Herman's Book TRAUMA AND RECOVERY:

Sharing the traumatic experience with others is a precondition for the restitution of a sense of a meaningful world. In this process, the survivor seeks assistance not only from those closest to her but also from the wider community. The response of the community has a powerful influence on the ultimate resolution of the trauma. Restoration of the breach between the traumatized person and the community depends, first, upon public acknowledgment of the traumatic event and, second, upon some form of community action. Once it is publicly recognized that a person has been harmed, the community must take action to assign responsibility for the harm and to repair the injury. These two responses- recognition and restitution- are necessary to rebuild the survivor's sense of order and justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 09:07 PM

Excuse me but I DID read the posts before commenting a@#$%%^e.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Midchuck
Date: 06 May 13 - 09:20 PM

Assuming that there turns out to be some truth to all of this, what do you think Santa Cruz guitar company is going to do with any Bob Brozman model baritone guitars that they still have in stock?

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:10 PM

"Assuming that there turns out to be some truth to all of this, what do you think Santa Cruz guitar company is going to do with any Bob Brozman model baritone guitars that they still have in stock?"

Sell them as SCGC Koa Baritones? What's the point of that question? Should National stop making Baritones as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Potato Fingers
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:13 PM

If any guitars are completed, the Brozman labels will probably not be attached. I played Bob's in 2000. It was quite a fine guitar.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 02:53 AM

I have no idea whether Brozman's estate was solvent. If it was, and there are indications above that Brozman might have been far from insolvent, then the possibility of a civil damages claim against the estate subsists.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 04:37 AM

The question "whatever happened to due process" was answered several times in the thread before the last person posed it. If, as they say, they had read the thread, they would do well to respond to points made in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 07 May 13 - 05:17 AM

I'm going to add a couple of details of a non-contentious sort for the sake of those trying to make sense of things from afar. One is that Brozman was born to a very wealthy family, his father was among the richest real estate developers in Manhattan. Bob has alway been a multi-millionaire, with emphasis on the "multi" part. As to civil suits against the estate, one imagines that such may happen, but of course things of this sort can take years and years, and even at the conclusion the terms may not be public. I hope that people are not suggesting that we all wait for the outcome of any and all such cases before talking about the allegations.

The picture of Brozman as being in great pain, and especially as having sunk into some sort of suicidal despondency, does not square with known facts. He had just returned from Japan, from what I've hear, and people who saw him there saw the same Bob they knew, full of energy and apparent good spirits. A musician friend of mine who knew him very well spoke to him within 2 or 3 weeks of his death and said Bob sounded as upbeat as ever. He also pointed out that, over all the years he knew Brozman, he never took pain medicine stronger than ibuprofen (though this may have changed in very recent times, I wouldn't know). The decision to end his life would seem to have been very sudden and certainly no one outside his immediate family had any warning. This is offered not as evidence of anything so much as to give a picture. Could he have been hiding his despondency? Well, either that or he was hiding something else, and while I believe it was something else, both scenarios are pretty unbelievable to me.

To been very clear on the last - only one person I've spoken to has even said that he heard rumors about the allegations during Bob's life, and that person didn't believe them at the time. Bob was in any case a highly strung and sometimes difficult individual, and it's not as if everyone in the business loved the guy. The same could be said of many other people, present company included, so the individual who heard the rumors chalked it up to someone having bad feelings about Brozman. But he no longer does. He, like myself and all the other musicians with whom I've communicated, was shocked and saddened by news of the death, confused by the suicide, found the version of the story about the suicide being because of despondency over losing the use of his hands unbelievable on the face of it, confirmed that the persons making the allegations were who they say they are, and came to the conclusion that the allegations are true. None of us are happy about this, obviously, it has upset us all and caused some sleepless nights and we are each trying to deal with it in our own way.

But if it is difficult to comes to terms with the idea that someone we have known, hung out with, picked tunes with, swapped jokes with and thought was "one of us" was a sexual predator, what about the people he violated, the families he dropped bombs on, the innocent girls whose lives he damaged? That really can be the only focus, now.

I think I've added all that I can at this point.

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 07 May 13 - 06:15 AM

May, 7, 2013

Duck (we love you), ET, AL

Dear friends:

Time is of the essense here & now.....it will/would take me hours to respond to each & everyone of your posts here, both pro & con.....however my responses are NOT of importance here, BUT what IS important here is the heinous/overt/abrogation of our rights of free speech on this "supposedly" NON MODERATED, NON CENSORED, Mudcat site period & exclamation point! I for one will NOT stand for it one second further!

Please immediatetly go to the "so-called" obit site and read my most current post, assuming that Ms SRS hasn't already deleted it!

More importantly, PLEASE, each & EVERY one of you, immediately "re-post" any & all of your posts here (whether Ms SRS bumped them over, or whether you've fallen victim to her trap. PLEASE PLEASE repost everything back to the so-called "obit site" where they obviously belong!

I'm sorry to suggest that Ms SRS is quite obviously to me an "anti-pro choice Republican Fundamentalist who absolutely knows what's BEST for ALL OF US!

If you have ANY doubts, ask her why there's NO alternative Heading on the mudcat site to the Brozman Obit site, meaning the ALT what she calls the "legal speculation site", actually don't bother!

There's now more posts here then on HER, OBIT site...........

Enough is enough already

I don't remember anyone appointing Ms SRS as our "MORAL" interpreter of God's will on this site or else where!

Do the right thing, there's power in numbers, but do it QUICKLY! Really it's quite probable that there exist perhaps DOZENS of abused children at Brozman's hands, and WE have a duty and responsibility to bring to EVERYONE's attention, particularly in the "Folk Community"!

For those of you that think his music, etc. is more important then perhaps dozens of lives which he's tortured &/or destroyed, then I damn you too, each & every one of you to the same hell that I hope he's twisting in..... obviously you deserve each other, & most probably ARE PARENTS....in fact, before you post again identify yourselves by name & e-mail, and state whether you are a parent or not!

Please, quickly post now my friends....

more later unless I'm banned----

Best, GR

www.adelphirecords.com

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi Records- Gene/Peace
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:04 AM

5/7/2013

NG, why am I NOT SURPRISED!

The only difference between you & I is that I'm 70 years old, I own & run a record company & publishing company, which are worldwide respected, and that I also recorded in my home and in the field Artists like: Miss. John Hurt, Skip James, John Fahey, RL Burnside, Furry Lewis, Bukka White, Paul Geremia, Roy Book Binder, Johnny Shines, Henry Townsend, Big Joe Williams, Etc. AD Nauseum--- NO BULLSHIT!

Now of course, these comments, by me, will likely do nothing but to antagonize this incredibly, "self centered", control freak, bitch who by hook or by crook has gained control of this aspect of the mudcat site, or even worse, she's the "lamb to the slaughter" sent out by Joe, etc.

If it turns out that Joe's behind it, believe me Joe, this time I'll be at BWI, with the Marshals to personally identify you....and off to the Baltimore lockup you'll go.....as I told you before, the State of Maryland does NOT take lightly to public, on the web threats to Maryland residents. You now know me Joe, this is for real, no BS... unless, of course, you can intercede immediately and return this mess to what you promised me it would be!

Forewarned is forearmed Joe....btw I can recommend a good Baltimore criminal Attorney, which you WILL need.

Sorry Joe, but that's the way you apparently want it to go down.

Gene

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:17 AM

Gene - Duck is acting sensibly about this, and so is SRS. You come across like James VI of Scotland, who had his enemies exhumed so he could put their rotting corpses on trial for treason and chop their heads off posthumously.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:39 AM

UM, my friend

I thought I had asked the following questions from would be posters in order to limit and to otherwise qualify would be posters?:

quickly---

1. do you have any children at all?
2. do you have any children whose ages right now are between 10 % 23 yeats old.
3. Finally, if your answer to BOTH of the above questions is yes, then finally, did you ever allow Bob Brozman to crash at your house
in your absence, and in the presence of ANY such underage children?

If not, please don't muddy the waters here further with your BS, opinionated comments, OK, PLEASE!

Gene R

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:50 AM

I hope this helps forum members who are having difficulty adjusting to the concept that Bob Brozman as you knew him through his musical presence was not the person he actually was. He apparently ensnared followers, resembling the kind of mind control much in the way of a cult leader. I believe that they are also his victims - I don't know what it takes to deprogram them.

Criminal sociopaths which IMHO is what he was are noted by criminal psychologists to be clever, good liars, bold,charismatic, without conscience and are capable of compartmentalizing their criminal activities, sometimes have a normal family life. The cravings and addictions for the criminal activity and associated dangers envigorate the criminal. Mr. Brozman also probably had financial and legal resources to squash any info.

Suicide when caught is not atypical response. A final act of the vicious control over people the sociopath held in life. Whether that was the basis of Mr. Brozman's actions I don't know.

The more those of you are able to see beyond his control, apparently from the grave,and illusions and contribute to making it known that you stand with all his victims that they will be safe coming forward you would be doing a service to them and freeing yourself at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:56 AM

Gene you need to step away from the computer. I understand your anger, but now you're spraying it everywhere, and you're starting to look like an arse with your talk of Lawyers because ... one of your posts here was removed, is that it? I'm surprise they all haven't been removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Roadworker
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:20 AM

A multi-millionaire cult leader world cruising paedophile?
PLEASE ,Stop all this crazed speculation and implied "secret knowledge"
If the man did these terrible things (and its highly probable,given Gary and Mary's undeniably powerful and heartfelt disclosures)then the truth will come out eventually. If he was innocent,his reputation is still forever destroyed.
as someone pointed out,the main people that this is hurting now are two totally innocent and wonderful women,his wife and daughter.
His longtime friends are reeling with shock,but it cannot compare to the pain his wife and daughter must be feeling.
Please bear them in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:25 AM

or do we want the next generation of musicans to think this is acceptable... entitlement?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:30 AM

Somewhat contrary to the cult leader idea,I think one of the reasons these seemingly otherworldly allegations were so quickly accepted by many is the fact that brozman did in fact alienate so many people. There are many people who knew him well -- people who would never say a bad word about anyone -- who had absolutely nothing nice to say about BB. He was clearly, before any of these revelations, a somewhat damaged person.

Now I don't think that means that because of our prejudices we are accepting an untrue story, and I don't mean that people knew about this particular aspect of this damage.

I just mean that it fits in with the somewhat antisocial and egomaniacal man who many of us witnessed, whether up close or from afar.

And of course the witnesses are reliable and would have no reason to make this stuff up. Their stories, unfortunately, are being slowly confirmed albeit off the record at the moment.

It anyone knows a producer at a 60-minutes type show, I almost hate to say it, but this would be a very good story for them to take on. It's obviously got the elements of attraction and repulsion that these shows thrive on, and it could have a very positive impact in terms of identifying any other victims and putting them on the journey to healing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:00 AM

Just a quickie:

My previous post was in response to Jack C, this one is in response to all of the rest of you that have suggested that there are things worse then child abuse/pedophilia....all I can suggest to you misanthrops that HAVE NOT identified yourselves, is that you are not now. nor have you ever been a parent....identify yourselves so that I can also acuse you of, in all probability, of also being a child porn addict!

Sorry, but my Social Psych credentials, from, believe it not, the same Univ. that Brozman attended 10 years later, just arises, like the Phoenix, in times like these.

Please have the guts to identify yourselves, so that we can do an on-line analysis of your sociopathic needs & tendencies...before you too feel the need to act them out; or just do us all a favor and crawl back into the craven holes that you crawled out of, OK? Please, Thanks!

Gene R.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Niggardly Bastard
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:07 AM

I had a great deal of respect for Bob as a musician.
I learned alot from his DVDs.
Sad to hear he was so sick in the head.
You could tell he was a guy with lots of sick secrets.
He had that vibe.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:35 AM

I have no reason NOT to believe the allegations that have been made so far - except that I tend not to believe anything I read first on the internet. I'm still hoping that a reputable news organization will cover this story soon.

The other thing that bothers me about this issue is that so many of the most passionate posters choose to remain anonymous - so as far as I know I have no history with these folks. Why remain anonymous - is it really that difficult to come down on one side or the other concerning child abuse? So even though there is a good chance that this information is true - the "jury" is still out as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:05 PM

is it really that difficult to come down on one side or the other concerning child abuse?

What a sick and twisted way to spin it.

What next? "Soft on lynching, soft on perverts?"

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:24 PM

The speculation is hurting his daughter? Stop and think about that a minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:33 PM

Grab your pitchfork, light a torch
Join us when we pass your porch
Too bad the monster's already dead
We're gonna light up the town instead

Burn it down, burn it down
Our anger's just too big to get around
Find an excuse to turn up the hate
C'mon people, it ain't too late
It's gotta go somewhere, you know it's true
If you don't join us,
we'll
just
burn
you

Discussion would be one thing, but a mob of hate-fueled loonies is not a thing I like observing...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:37 PM

...because it's another thing.

A photo.

Have fun storming the castle, boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,That's MISTER Guest to you
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:58 PM

An innocent man doesn't end his life in the face of baseless accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:29 PM

An innocent man doesn't end his life in the face of baseless accusations.

Okay wise guy, what was Sunil Tripathi guilty of?

Reddit victim kills himself

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,That's MISTER Guest to you
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:36 PM

Sunil Tripathi committed suicide BEFORE the bombings and BEFORE being accused of them, your attempt to draw a parallel is a fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:47 PM

I have my own beliefs regarding the guilt of Bob Brozman as a child molester. They are changing as more information comes to light but I won't go into them here. Divorcing the whole guilt or innocence question, what I am concerned with is the way that in this digital age a person can be tried in the court of public opinion with very little evidence or evidence that would not be admissable in a courtroom. In just a few days time I read the forums and witnessed a master become a monster. I'm not excusing child molesting, which I believe to be one of the most heinous of crimes, but given the hysterical outbursts of hate and vitriol (from all sides) on several of the forums I do have to wonder whether we are getting so worked up by this emotional topic that our judgement has become clouded.

The sad fact of the matter is we may never know for certain whether Bob Brozman was a child molester. If he was indeed about to be criminally prosecuted for the crimes the government will almost certainly not proceed with a costly trial on a dead person. Whatever evidence they may or may not have will never see the light of day. Since civil cases are a matter of public record, we do know that at the time of his death there were no civil cases against him pending within Santa Cruz county (check the Superior Court, Santa Cruz website for verification) but I would not be surprised if several were filed against the estate. Hopefully someday an investigating reporter will use the freedom of information act to find out more and we can make more informed decisions but until then all we are left with is ambiguity.

I do know this. The internet is a very cheap and easy place to make accusations against people and foverer after have them be seen in a different light. These are very serious allegations and should not be decided by reading a few forum posts. If after my death someone was to accuse me of being a child molester I would hope that people would do as much research as possible into the matter before jumping to a conclusion. Some people here claim to have done that and have reached a conclusion of either guilt or innocence. If they are satisfied with their own inquiries, good on them. If and when the full truth is known some will be right, some will be wrong. Let everyone be convinced in their own mind.

I also know that all this bickering serves no purpose but to bring additional pain to family members and any others who may be affected in this case. For those people I pray for healing and peace during this most trying time. It has been difficult enough for his fans and former fans to make sense out of all this. It must be hell for them. Guilty or innocent, Bob Brozman is dead but our actions and comments affect the living who are left behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:48 PM

It's amazing to me how many of you have already tried and convicted BB based on nothing more then hearsay. I don't care how 'prominent' some of you MAY be, this is sounding more like a vitriolic witch hunt then a discourse of the present known facts. Just because a few of you have somewhat recognizable names does not make this story true. It only fuels this speculative discussion further along a very precipitous path.

Until any SOLID evidence bears anything out perhaps a few of you should take the high road by stepping away from your computer for a while. Condemning someone in the social media before they are PROVEN innocent or guilty is grossly premature.

I'm not taking any sides here regarding innocence or guilt. I'm merely pointing out that you're damaging someone's reputation BEFORE anything has been proven.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 02:49 PM

As noted in my last post, at that point I had contributed what I can in terms of the facts of the case. And as I check back in, what do I say but a lot of people who seem determined to ignore those. I didn't rely on the internet for a thing apart from three skypes calls and a couple of email exchanges with friends close enough to the situation to remove all doubt from my mind. And I started off not believing a word. So I took the trouble to share what I was able to, and the reasons I have, and the musical community close to Bob, has, for believing the allegations. Not one person saying that they don't believe them has actually given any information from a source anything like as close as those I have spoken to, except of course Rob Atkinson and Bob's ex-wife, who made the allegations in the first place. So, based on the fact that none of you can confirm anything, you act as if no one or earth might know more. The people in Santa Cruz who say they have spoken to people working in the courts, they are lying, I guess. No, they aren't on record, because many court cases are NOT public record until an indictment is handed down, which it won't be, now. Once again, I personally can verify that Mr. Atkinson is who is says he is and that he stands by his statement. And if people who live in the area, all of whom knew Bob very well over the years, have come to accept the allegations based on what they have learned in their community, it seems amazing to just ignore that. You think David Lindley decided that the stories are true because of something he saw online? Fine.

What I am saying, categorically, is that the people who are best informed and closest to the subject are convinced. Do you have to be? No, but acting as if everyone who believes the allegations is doing so based on nothing, that won't do.

I guess the people talking about magazines and TV stations investigating this haven't worked in those areas. But the way it works is that investigate allegations against political figures, major celebrities, and people like that, because they can sell copy or advertising time. But the idea that someone is going to dig around to get what they can on this and publish or air it - WHERE do you think you'll see such an article? Is 60 minutes really going to do a spot on Bob Brozman? The New York Times? Rolling Stone? "Waiting until things are proven" could, as I and others have pointed out, mean waiting forever.

I have shared the conclusion that has sadly been reached by the musical community closest to Bob Brosman. I have refrained from attacking his character, why should I do that? The Bob I knew was the same guy most of you knew. But child abuse is bound to arouse strong emotions, we would all be very weird if it didn't, right? Please don't imply that all of us who have come to these conclusions are witch-hunting, or don't know anything, or need to wait for the facts. The people I talked to have more facts than the people saying we shouldn't judge have or may ever have; No one WANTED to believe this stuff, the musician community least of all. And THAT is fact - that they didn't want to believe it and now they do.

One last time - we need to think about the victims. Nothing else matters.

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:06 PM

The music is irrelevant. Our thoughts should be with his victims and their families (that will include his familt too.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gerardo
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:28 PM

I will keep listening to the music of Bob Brozman in the years to come. Music is relevant. And he left an undisputed body of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:34 PM

The people I talked to have more facts than the people saying we shouldn't judge have or may ever have;
>>>>



perhaps they could share these facts with us.    Until then, I hope you'll forgive me for not jumping to conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,guest.
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:36 PM

same guy as the previous post.    A poster on a different board called the Santa Cruz PD.   They are not aware of any criminal investigations involving Bob Brozman.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:51 PM

to elaborate:

"My brief investigation pertained to telephone calls to Santa Cruz County Sheriff's office, District Attorney's office, and Coroner's office. I also checked civil court records. Nothing is official and I have no records nor did I request any under the CA Public Information Act. Indeed, a criminal investigation wouldn't even be public, but a detective I spoke with was unaware of any criminal investigations."

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:53 PM

I have shared the facts with you, such as they are known. I have explained in detail what IS known. You make one phone call (and talk to people I probably know better than you) and want to act like you know as much as anyone else? Fine.

There are lots of reasons why people would not want to involve themselves. You have me telling you what I have, and confirming that Mary Christine and Rob Atkinson stand by their stories. You have me telling you that the musicians I know in the area all believe the substance of the allegations. I have not heard from one who doesn't. But you managed to confirm that no one at SC Guitars has talked to anyone at the courthouse willing to disclose information that isn't public. Fine.

Sure I forgive you for not "jumping to conclusions." The parents of the victims might not but I certainly do because I have nothing at stake. I'm only trying to help people get the picture, but you know the old line about leading a horse to water...

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:58 PM

I see that you made more calls, but repeat that someone told me that that had information from the courthouse that an indictment was pending. This person, you see, KNEW someone at the courthouse willing to break silence, or at least to give a tacit confirmation. Since this info I have 2nd-hand, I can't confirm it, but since everyone out there is believing what they believe, I have to assume that they have other sources of this kind.

But I can't argue with people who think they know more about it than the people in Bob's backyard. it will never stop.

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 04:02 PM

Duck, you really need to take a deep breath. You are now at the point where anyone who does not immediately take you at your word thinks you and everyone you talk to is lying.   


You are now jumping to conclusions about the source of the paragraph I quoted. It was not from SC guitars.   I have no idea they even had a discussion board.


I have not "managed to confirm" anything.   I merely reported the results of one person's attempt to find some facts. that's all.

yes, all the musicians you know believe the substance of the allegations - but you won't say why they believe that.   You know what that is called? G-O-S-S-I-P.   Gossip is not the same thing as facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 04:04 PM

sometimes the people closest to the subject are the LEAST objective.    Geography is no guarantor of accuracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 May 13 - 04:08 PM

Mudcat's own Nancy Grace...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 07 May 13 - 04:15 PM

OK, I took a breath. Sorry if I got confused, but I'm amazed by some of these reactions.

If you really think that I and those I know are just engaging in gossip, I can't believe you're reading what I'm saying. I'm NOT going to five names of people who didn't tell me to, that much is clear. I'm NOT even telling you hear the overall gist of what they are telling me. Many details that I have heard would indeed be inappropriate to share. I AM saying, once and for all, that the musician community closest to Bob in time an geography has formed a consensus based on all that it knows. These would be the last people on earth to believe unfounded gossip.

And that's it from me. Believe what you will. I really have only wanted to help, and managed to get stressed about it, which helps no one. But, as I said, it's an emotional issue.

Apologies to all. If I get more hard facts that clarify things I will sign in again. But apart from that, I bow out.

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 04:18 PM

My goodness Duck... don't you have anything better to do with your time?? This is becoming your own personal witch hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 04:28 PM

I recognize that you are sincerely trying to help, Duck, and I appreciate that you took a breath.    I can presume that specific people told you specific things they saw or heard or experienced, and that it would be inappropriate for you to share names, dates, places. I get all that.

All I'm trying to say is that I'm going to wait until *I* have heard some facts - and right now I haven't.   With all due respect to yourself and the people you have talked to, I'm going to wait until someone puts something on the record. Hearsay isn't enough with a charge this serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 07 May 13 - 05:09 PM

Duck, thanks for sharing what you've heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 May 13 - 06:02 PM

There is almost nothing better someone can do with their time than to try to stop child abuse. It will get ugly. Time is of the essence. Putting obstacles in the path of an honest and truthful and unimpaired by personal revenge etc. search is abetting the perverts. What if someone had said, as they undoubtedly did, don't spread rumors about those nice men having kidnapped women in their house. They are innocent until proven guilty, they are pillars of the community etc. Every morning I make myself go to bishopaccountability.org and read the abuse tracker, mostly for the Catholic church. We shouldn't go on witch hunts but we shouldn't say oh that nice bishop couldn't have done that either....We have to be prepared for false accusations, towards ourselves even, but we have to protect children or we are not adults worth our place on this earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gerardo
Date: 07 May 13 - 06:33 PM

Duck,

Thanks a lot for the info but, sincerely, I don't trust a guy who plays the blues in a nylon string guitar...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:03 PM

I am starting to wonder about the prevalence of a fondness for coercive sex among entertainers. How does it compare to others? Should we worry that a desire to be an entertainer shows a probability of a socio-sexual defect?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:04 PM

I think everyone can understand that emotions are running high. You wouldn't expect anything else for some thing so unexpected, painful, and hard to understand. I want to thank the many people who brought this to light.

For me, as far as Bob's reputation is concerned, that horse has left the gate. There is time down the road to attempt to resurrect Bob's legacy, but that time is not now. Now, the most important thing, in my mind, is to find out if there are other victims no one knows about and find if they need help. I know that Bob had a charity in his name. I only hope part of that fund will go to help the victims. You can believe it or not. For some, no evidence is enough. For many of us, what we've all been able to research on our own points to one conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:10 PM

I am genuinely wondering how posting on this message board helps find out if there are other victims no one knows about. How exactly does that work?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:13 PM

meanwhile, I guess we better round up all those American Idol hopefuls and ship them off to re-education camps.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:14 PM

Burn in hell with Savile and all other pedophiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:21 PM

I noticed that Diamond Bottlenecks have removed bob's name and image from their site. Their BB "signature" slide has either been renamed for Debashish Battacharya.

SCGC still has their eulogy banner up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:22 PM

whatever you say here can be googled so that is why

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:22 PM

Gerado says: "Thanks a lot for the info but, sincerely, I don't trust a guy who plays the blues in a nylon string guitar..."

WTF? Really? You've redefined clueless! Mr. Baker is hardly a blues musician in the first place. There is certainly a long tradition of nylon strings in the jazz and anglo-celtic traditions.


As to the rest of it, there is nothing more horrific, monstrous and evil than molesting a child. He may have kept it hidden, but Brozman was a sick, twisted monster. None of his so-called achievements are worth a pile of shite anymore. Imagine the horror of his victim's lives. I'll puke if I hear his music again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:23 PM

As far as how this will help identify victims, you can bet if he'd stayed at my house & I have young daughter I'd be making sure she was OK. A quick google will turn up many instances of people talking about how he stayed with them while on tour.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:57 PM

I had heard these stories from people who directly involved about three years ago. As it was hearsay, I was unable to do anything about it. I admit to being somewhat surprised that no legal action was taken during that time, but of course I don't know the details of why that was the case. My thinking there was that perhaps one or more of the victims wished to remain out of the public eye. I had raised questions on another forum as to what good it does to make it public at this point, when Bob is beyond any legal remedy.Some of the posts here make the valid point that there might have been other victims who haven't come forward, but would be emboldened to do so if others did so publicly. As most pedophiles were abused children themselves, I wish Bob had dealt with his underlying issues instead of acting out at great cost to innocent children. I will add my voice to Duck's in corroboration of their being substance to the allegations, as it would have taken collusion between unlikely allies to allege what I heard without there being truth to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:58 PM

As far as will it help to find victims to talk about this issue, I can only speak from personal experience. There was a man who lived in my town. Respected man, rich, entrepreneur. He had 4 kids, a wonderful wife who gave generously to many causes. I knew him because he had a son my son's age. I'd been at this house to play music for a benefit concert. My son had been at his house. I visited his place of work and we tried to do some business together. Years later I read by chance that he was convicted of child molestation. Sentenced to 7 years. I found out about it by chance. Fortunately, when I called my son, now 22, and asked him about it, he said nothing happened to him but he did remember the son used to make sexual jokes at a very young age which embarrassed my son when he was young. We know now that kind of early inappropriate behavior is often a sign of child abuse.

We do know, the more we talk, the more it gets picked up by search engines and the more information (albeit both true and false information) will be available to those that need it.

And who needs it: the father or mother that put up Bob in their home and had a young daughter. Maybe, like me, they want to ask their child ...when Bob stayed with us? Is there anything you need to tell us?

This is the internet. The truth will come out. Genii's out of the bottle. Let's help the victims. Bob's legacy can wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:04 PM

Duck Baker is a hero in my book. Caring that much about the 3 known victims at this point, not their parents but the girls who are now all grown women. Those women don't need to talk to anyone. They need only to control their own destinies. This is why it may never be known because they get to keep their privacy. Bob's taking his own life will have to speak for itself. Yes his wife is grieving but she isn't one of the abused. Just another one who believed the con artist.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:04 PM

Guest... Gerardo was making a joke. I say a joke, son.   A very creditable attempt to get people to lighten up a little.


I think we could all save time by putting a boilerplate statement about how awful child abuse is.   Can we just stipulate that as a given, please?


I was asking a serious question.   How is the rampant hysteria that is this discussion helping to identify other potential victims or to encourage them to come forward?   Ask yourselves honestly how the things you are typing help accomplish that goal that we can all agree on.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:14 PM

This is the internet. The truth will come out.
>>>>


funniest thing I have read all day.



Some of the posts here make the valid point that there might have been other victims who haven't come forward, but would be emboldened to do so if others did so publicly
>>>>

yes, that is a valid point.   But we're not victims, are we? We're spectators.    Maybe the best way to encourage victims to come forward is to quiet down a little and treat it like the serious and incredibly sensitive subject it is.   Not slinging mud at those who disagree with us.

My comments are not directed at everyone on this thread. Many people are already treating this subject soberly and seriously.    My comments are directed at some posters only.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,stevesg
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:58 PM

Seems like I offended the King of Bongo-Bong!!!

oh my...


"attacked personally"
don't take it personally, Duck

"people with half a brain"
last time I checked, my half was where it should be; which half I'm not sure

"stupid"
no guitar player jokes, please

"David Lindley and myself know more about it than you"
impressive

"You think I'm not Duck Baker?"
I'm sure youre Duck Baker, I'm not sure why I'm trading flames with an adult called "Duck"

"None, no, and none, right? What a shock!"
correct. I can read hearsay easier, and I get to communicate with real guitar gods

"If you want to act like you're defending Brozman from a witch hunt"
read my post; "I don't care about Brozman"; anyway my wife's family includes in its tree Rebecca Nurse, so I'm careful with the "w" word

"I don't intend to address such distractions again."
sorry I distracted you.

sincerely yours, s.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Inquiring minds want to know
Date: 07 May 13 - 10:12 PM

Perhaps it is time to sit back and see what public records reveal about what sort of legal issues might have come the way of Bob. I hope that these records will be shared on this thread.

At this time I am not prepared to reach a finite conclusion. If you put anyone under a microscope for long enough you will find some strange data and how you interpret that data is of great importance.

A few days ago; I read a comment somewhere from someone that claimed to be a past tour coordinator for some of Bob's European tours and made some allegations.

Those of you that investigate this matter please do share what you find here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 13 - 10:26 PM

"Inquiring Mind" - if you really "want to know" go back to the start of this thread and read it for yourself. It's there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:01 PM

Look, folks, the truth will eventually prevail... believe me. I have to say I was shocked by these allegations, but in retrospect, and looking back over the decades, and re-thinking all the interactions...

While I support the concept of "innocent until proven guilty," I have to admit the evidence is indeed piling up. As Duck said, nobody WANTS to believe these allegations, but in several private conversations with those more "in the know" than I am, it's beginning to look pretty bad.

Let me emphasize that I have made no 100% conclusion as yet. Like most of the rest of you, I am shaking my head in wonder that, if true, this went on for so long. There is only one REAL conclusion, though: IF (and that's still only an "if") these allegations turn out to be true, then all of us, as a musical community, need to pony up somehow to help the victims.

I'm sorry, but I have ZERO tolerance for child abusers. ZERO! And new victims may continue to come out of the woodwork.

Frankly I am hoping there is a reasonable explanation for all this, and I wish it all would just go away. But that doesn't look real possible right now. All (and I do mean ALL) of my sympathies are with victims and their families. If he is indeed innocent, then a pox upon rumor mongers! But if this all turns out to be true, then Bob became his own judge, jury and executioner. May both he AND his possible victims somehow all find some measure of peace, however difficult that may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 May 13 - 12:46 AM

we are far more than spectators. collectively we are the eyes and ears of our local and global community. we can piece together bits of information and put them out there for others to corroborate. Or refute. We make the world safer when molesters, trafficers, enablers, bishops who move predators around, know that the whole wide world is watching and will not tolerate. silence and confusion are their friends..public knowledge and watchdoging is their enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: PHJim
Date: 08 May 13 - 12:49 AM

It seems that this will never be settled legally since Bob is no longer with us. It will be left to individuals to make up their own minds or remain undecided.

There are still folks on both sides of the Michael Jackson and O.J. Simpson debates, even though in these cases the courts did make decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:23 AM

. . . allegations turn out to be true, then all of us, as a musical community, need to pony up somehow to help the victims.

Even a non-legal mind can figure out that if there is standing to any cases that come forward than responsibility for settlements will be encumbered on his multi-million dollar estate, not on an particular part of the public, aside from legal aid and victims funds. His estate might not be ill-gotten gains, but it is the resource that would have been tapped in civil cases that would logically have followed criminal prosecution, were the criminal cases successful. Or not (see the O.J. Simpson case, where the criminal case said "not guilty" but the lesser standard required by the civil courts found him guilty and pretty much Hoovered up all of his assets.) Even dead, I imagine there is legal wrangling to come, that may shed light on guilt or innocence.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:48 AM

So far, I see some hideous allegations, but absolutely NO proof. An accusation is not proof. I do know this...there is ONE accusation that no man can ever recover from. No one wants to be seen as on the side of a person accused of this kind of behavior...if there is even the chance it might be true.   As this story circulates, I'm sure fewer and fewer will question it.    Please keep in mind that most of the statements Gary, the accuser, makes are statements of opinion - they are supported with no facts, and it's suspicious that he and the ex-wife want to use the internet to tell this story.   Why would they want to expose their own children to the publication of this information, if not for some kind of personal gain.   Just because someone makes an attempt to settle something out of court does NOT mean they are guilty. And a man might kill himself if he believed his reputation was going to be ruined by a hideous story. What if this was black mail...or worse, just plain meanness taken too far.

Gary and the "ex-wife" whose name is withheld do not provide one bit of information to support the claims that they make. The "victims" are not posting their stories, and I can't believe they want these stories publicized in such an ugly way.

Gary states quite publically that he believed Brozman to be a wealthy man...and claims to have co-authored a book with Brozman.

This whole thing is very fishy, and I will go on the record to say...I knew Bob, and I just don't believe Brozman did what he is accused of. And IF he did, it should be proven in a court of law, with evidence, and due process. People, please, hold the accusers accountable to some standard of proof, please, other than if they say it, it must be true.   
If it's proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, fine, I'll be the first to condemn the behavior...but I lived too long to just take a complete stranger at face value for this kind of accusation.    If there was real proof of this, why didn't these people have a case years before?

I'm just saying, we don't know the real story, and what has been published here should not be taken at face value.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:44 AM

well i suppose they could send out postcards instead...and if you were convinced you were speaking the truth out of desire to protect children, you would tell your children the truth and expose them to it to protect other children, I would imagine. The stench coming from the Catholic church is because the truth did not come out and fear of scandal trumped protection of children. Personal gain? Does not make sense to me in this case but i could be wrong...the question is always going to be do you do nothing or do you do something....either way you could call it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:57 AM

Dear God, this thread causes me so much pain. I cannot believe this is being circulated like wildfire, and that so many people are saying that the world should just take their word as fact, with no real evidence offered.   I am grateful to see the posts from people suggesting calm scrutiny, and a request for a measured response based on proof.

I hate contributing to gossip, but since so many of you are quick to condemn any accusation involving a child, and are taking unsubstantiated claims as facts I feel that I must offer some perspective on the principal players. - Mary Christine, the ex wife, has long been a pitiable character ...exactly because she is willing to put her daughter through something like this. I'm sorry to report that she has a decades long personal history of volatility, paranoia, triangulation, and vindictiveness.   She may well have convinced herself that her story is true, and been able to convince others, but I can testify that she can also be someone disconnected from reality.   I have personally seen her make false accusations in the past.   How heartbreaking would it be if Brozman killed himself because of a false accusation that he knew would forever ruin his reputation. I hate to say this about any person, but given her publishing these rumors on the heels of Brozman's suicide., I feel this truth must also be told.

This is dangerous territory, folks. Tread lightly, and keep your eyes open as the story unfolds. There is a reason the law says beyond a reasonable doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Mary Christine
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:25 AM

Wow. You are going to make my husband of 18 years very angry now. After Bob & I split, I privately and ignorantly prided myself on how talented my ex-husband was. But all my current husband ever heard from me was maybe once per year I might have called him an asshole, selfish and self-absorbed. Of course all that changed in recent years. Pitiable character? Owned my own enviromental business (and failed) but not after much activism which included several visits with my ex-governor, Gary Johnson, of NM and a private meeting with ex-US Senator Pete Domenici, who publicized my work in a local publication. Please identify yourself to say you have personally seen me make false allegations in the past. I am grateful beyond measure that my healing has led me to help others who have been brutalized in ways you probably couldn't even imagine. I do appreciate the word choice of pitiable. It is one of my favorites. Much better than pitiful. Really, I think there will be many others who would like to know your name, now, manly man.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Mary Christine
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:32 AM

My name has never been withheld for the record. So you are an ignorant fool and a pitiable human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:21 AM

I notice that while Richard Hoover's blog post is still up, SCGC has taken the brozman banner/eulogy off their website.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:29 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:03 PM

I am starting to wonder about the prevalence of a fondness for coercive sex among entertainers. How does it compare to others? Should we worry that a desire to be an entertainer shows a probability of a socio-sexual defect?"

No, I don't think so. It just so happens that a lot of such stories seem to be getting uncovered right now, as the snowball is rolling, more victims are beginning to feel safe to tell their stories - remember that until more recently many children were simply dismissed as fantasists, including by parents, it was simply too taboo to talk about.

Celebrity status from being an entertainer may help to generate the kinds of access to people's trust that many other professions may not, but the same is also true of caring professions, religious offices and teaching jobs among others. It's possible that the kinds of access that certain professions may provide, make some jobs more appealing to those with a desire to abuse but it's not a signifier of deviancy to want to do said jobs. I certainly don't think that a love of kids and a desire to work with kids is any sign of sexual deviancy, even if paedophiles are attracted to such professions. Nor do I think the same of the desire to be an entertainer. However the desire to work with children unfortunately must always be under scrutiny.
I did note early on the Obit thread, that Brozman was a wonderful charitable fellow, who gave his time taking instruments to children in poor countries. Sad to say, but that kind of focused altruism (as in the Savile case) would be more likely to make me want to know more about a persons possible motives, than simply the desire to be an entertainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:57 AM

> How is the rampant hysteria that is this discussion
> helping to identify other potential victims or to encourage them to come forward?
> Ask yourselves honestly how the things you are typing help accomplish that goal
> that we can all agree on.

Because it counters the hagiographic obituaries and articles that were all over the place earlier in the week, and creates the likelihood that they will be heard. It's clearly an impediment to people coming forward, when the individual concerned is placed on such a pedestal that few want to believe ill of them. Why else did floods of accusations against Jimmy Saville start to come in AFTER he was dead and AFTER the first stories were made public? Because it was finally OK for the victims to tell their stories without being disbelieved.

Also, this forum is the equivalent of CNN in the acoustic music world, so it's not an unseen backwater. It *is* useful to have this discussion here.

Duck isn't conducting a witch hunt - he just feels strongly that any potential victims need to know that they're not going to be shot down in flames if they now come forward. Duck is my husband, so I know how he feels about it.

For those who refuse to believe it until it's proved in a court of law - for goodness sake, Brozman is now dead, so can't be tried! And when you ask 'why didn't people come forward sooner?', please remember that it's a common problem with sexual abuse. It can take decades before someone is ready to come out and talk about it. When it happens, obviously, they're children and it's rare that they want to tell the world about it, and their families don't want to put them through that - if the families even know about it, or believe them. Saville was never tried; do you doubt *his* accusers?
Possibly some of Brozman's victims had recently steeled themselves to face a trial, which will now not happen, and they have to deal with that.
I agree with Duck that since there are a lot of signs that the accusations are true, the hagiography needs to be countered. That's why this thread is useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:59 AM

*that they will be heard = that the victims will be heard

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 08 May 13 - 07:49 AM

Thanks to the fellow I got in a tangle with yesterday for understanding why I flared up a bit. As or the sg guy - he makes it obvious that no one need pay any attention.

And I LIKED the joke about playing blues on a nylon string guitar. Something Davy Graham, Jerry Reed, and Charlie Byrd were all pretty good at. You could trust Charlie, though - can't vouch of the rest of us!   :-)

But the person who attacked Mary Christine - what in hell can that be about? You actually sit there and self-righteously hurl things at someone identifying herself as the mother of a victim here? Wow. Just wow. As I said before, attack me if you must. But you are going to have to live with attacks made towards victims if the allegations bear out (and believe me, much more is being said in private than in public at this point, and I don't think that the statements from the families of victims are just "hearsay," though I understand that unclear allusions to them from people like myself might be). PLEASE don't go there, people. DON'T ATTACK THE VICTIMS.

What is known is that Mary C. and Gary A are who they say they are, and they have communicated that their case was proceeding against Brosman. Until they feel they can tell us more details about the nature of that case, we are all speculating, myself included. If the timing of the impending revelations with the suicide don't raise suspicions, so be it.

I do understand the desire of some to withhold judgment until we hear a fuller explanation from the families of the victims identified so far, but the idea that we can ever get certainly from the legal process is very naive. I repeat that Jimmy Saville abused hundreds of kids over the years and was NEVER proven guilty of anything. Nor can Brozman be proven guilty,

It helped me a great deal to talk to a family member who is a practicing psychologist, just to get a handle on things. Leaving aside the fact that most of us knew Bob but not the victims or their families, what is known about predators is that they target the vulnerable. The fact that they are likely to come across as more apparently believable than the people they target is necessary to their survival, and we have seen that over and over and over.

Anyway, I shouldn't have gotten into trying to convince anyone of the facts of the case since even the most telling things I've heard are not a matter of public record. There are always going to be some who refuse to believe. My aim has been to let the community know that many in the musical community have accepted the allegations as true, and apologize for not being clearer at the outset that it is largely because of having heard things that aren't being made public yet. It seems reasonable that people could say, well, that being the case, I'll withhold judgment.

But it is NOT reasonable to suggest that people in my position should not speak out. It seems amazing in this day and age that such a thing even be suggested, especially here in Britain, where it doesn't seem a week goes by without another story of serial molestation getting the headlines. Some have gone to court, yes. Saville didn't, but others have - but only after decades of continued abuse. Did people who held their tongues about suspicions act responsibly? Not in my book. And the point here is not that the perpetrator is no longer among us, but that the alleged victims and their families are. And they are reading every word you post.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:22 AM

As for the poster who personally attacks Mary Christine - why not sign your name to your post? Without your name, it's plain cowardly. And will you still stand by it, when more of the story comes to light? You really want to attack the victims here?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:24 AM

Savile's proclivities were so well known in the UK that he was featured as a necrophile/pedophile character in an Irvine Welsh story more than a decade before his death. He was notorious but was a friend of the most powerful people in the country and was protected. Everyone knew what he was up to but nothing was done.

This all seems much more questionable as of yet, but like Savile it appears Brozman was particularly wealthy and well-connected. Did no one really suspect anything if the allegations were true?

Who was his father and what was the source of this wealth? Information on Shep Brozman appears very scant online yet he is described as having been one of the biggest real estate developers in NYC. All a bit mysterious.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Michael Berk
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:27 AM

Spent most of yesterday in shock when I heard about all this.
Over the years I've seen Bob perform countless times and he inspired my guitar playing more than most.
Having spent the evening wondering whether I should even be playing resonator slide guitar (and using many of the techniques that I learnt from him), I'm now of the opinion that it's now become the duty of acoustic slide guitarists to reclaim that particular niche in fingerstyle Blues and so removing Bob's association with the style.
When people think of modern-day Delta Blues, Brozman's name is first on the list for more or less everyone. That's got to change.
I'm not certain it's even appropriate to be discussing music right now given the awful nature of his crimes but for those relatively few musicians that can play the style, it's become more important than ever for us to get out the house and into the bars and clubs to perform.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:10 AM

"Mary Christine, the ex wife, has long been a pitiable character .."

And you wonder why people have trouble coming forward...

You should be ashamed of yourself blaming the victim.

Has a single member of the family stepped up to refute the charges?

there is your answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:13 AM

I disagree that 'everyone knew what Savile was up to'. Within the worlds in which he moved (TV, hospital charities, etc) many people were aware of rumours, but nothing concrete. Many people have said since that, if they'd had any proof, they would have spoken up, but they never did have firm evidence. Those who did know for sure - the victims - were afraid to speak, and indeed, what 'evidence' did they have, either? Savile was clever enough and powerful enough (and on occasion, threatening enough) to keep a lid on it all.
Yes, it's tricky, because we don't want witch hunts against the innocent - but there you have it, the danger of waiting for positive, actual proof - and ignoring what we might call the anecdotal evidence. If we haven't learnt a lesson from that saga, then I don't know what to say.

Subject: Hey Duck
From: GUEST,Mary Christine
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:49 AM

Clarification- I never had a case against Bob. I wasn't a primary victim. Being vocal was my thing. That said, the actions that went on after I found out, I will keep to myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:56 AM

That's not quite true though Helen is it? Savile was notorious in gossip in the UK for DECADES before his death. Numerous people reported suspicions to various authorities including the police and nothing was ever done. Perhaps being public friends with Prince Charles and the rest along with the long history of corruption among the UK police might have had something to do with it but I assure you that besides the Welsh story (blindingly obvious to all who read it) and the questioning by Louis Theroux on his program his doings were about as far from secret as is possible. Very clearly he was protected and abetted by people in power - both by fellow pedophiles and by those with financial and other interests in protecting him.

I agree with you and others who urge caution about jumping to conclusions, witch-hunts, etc - but there is a long history of powerful and rich men being protected and allowed to abuse children and much more being revealed weekly. Just look at the cover-ups of the borstals in Florida and Jersey and Wales. So when these sort of allegations are made it pays to watch closely to see whether they had allies and to ensure that those with money cannot use it to buy silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:57 AM

Am I correct in understanding that there were 3 alleged abuse victims who have been discussed here? Bob's stepdaughter (Mary's daughter), Gary's daughter, and a 3rd child who is currently 9 years old and is the subject of whatever legal action was underway? And that in the last instance, there were criminal charges pending? Had an actual indictment been issued?

Not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to clarify what has been communicated as the facts of the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Flash - Austin TX
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:59 AM

--- Interesting to note (but then again perhaps not) that BB's last album was titled "Fire In The Mind" ---

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 08 May 13 - 10:41 AM

I just want to add a couple of things quickly.

Kudos to Michael for taking a positive approach re the legacy - that's what we need at this point.

As to how many victims and so on, my understanding is that those involved are trying to work out a comprehensive public statement and finding it tough going. For now, it's a little hard to piece things together but I think we can be very sure that questions about who was threatening legal action of what sort will become somewhat clearer.

Two victim families have identified themselves. I can confirm they are who they say they are, and again invite anyone to contact me directly through my website if you doubt my identity. So THAT much is certain, allegations were made by the Gary Atkinson and supported by Mary Christine. It appears there is also a third party as yet unidentified, and I think reasonable people can assume that the reason for anonymity is because of what the victim in that case is going through. I can't personally confirm this, but that seems to be what's going on.

The comparison to Saville is ONLY that that monster was never "proven guilty," and I really do doubt that any career of sex abuse so monumental as Sir Jimmy's is what we're talking about here. But again, Saville abused HUNDREDS of now-known cases. Rumors circulated, but no one ever dreamed of the extent. The absence of rumors, in other words, proves nothing.

Bob's dad was a very wealthy real-estate broker in NY, more than that I don't know. I don't see it as particularly pertinent but somehow the subject was broached and that much is certainly common knowledge. And by very wealthy I mean very wealthy.

Some people will never believe it and that's their choice. I have heard enough to convince me and then some, but I think I've done what I can with this and I'm going to have to leave it soon as I've got a little tour coming up.

To all those who have expressed support for my going public, I really thank you. I didn't aim to take the job on, but when people were ignoring me because I wasn't identifying myself, I felt there was no choice.

Peace, Duck Baker

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 11:49 AM



Not to mention the fact that his Post-Industrial Blues CD has song titles like, "Three Families Blues," "People Are Strange," and "Lonely Children."

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 12:09 PM

http://www.guitarseminars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41404#p41404

"I have to work outside the USA to survive and send my daughter to college. I am too old to lose money at work, though I would really love to live in the kind of USA that I could get sufficient work in. I never knew I would grow up to be a migrant laborer from a dying empire, but that is the actual reality."

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 12:49 PM

A multi-millionaire migrant laborer. Now THERE's a concept...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 May 13 - 01:06 PM

Is it time for a seque into English Lit 101 to discuss the concept of "unreliable narrator" and "memoir?" Personae created along the way by one conducting a performance career in a public space may be part of the performance. This is to say that there is probably nothing you will read out there in interviews that will give you a smoking gun or lay this charge to rest.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:17 PM

One obvious reason people wait until the Evil Ones die is that they are terrified. Some have been threatened with loss of family income, harm to their parents, going to hell, and I presume serious physical harm..and the latest known alleged victim is 9??? I encourage everyone to start the day as I do with reading bishop accountability.org and see all that has been done to intimidate children..from a variety of religions. They talked about interviewing Native American abuse survivors and they said they all just shook when talking about it. Take it seriously and do not stand in the way of exposing the truth (and if you make false accusations..as many do in divorce situations.. the sky should be the limit on your punishment). Like I said, we are not worth the carbon in our bodies if we don't..they should just extract it and make a pencil of us and we would be more useful. And if you have ever seen a five year old who has been through this, you know. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:39 PM

The prospect of being the focus of a national TV news/documentary and spending the rest of your life with your entire identity defined as "poster child" by the mass media wouldn't be an appealing prospect for most folks either.

The lynch mob mentality isn't about getting the victims anything they might want or need. It's about satisfying the blood-lusts of people who badly need to examine their own motives.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:58 PM

I have stated what my motives are repeatedly. I have actually not said one word against Brozman. And since the families of victims have thanked me and others who are trying to get the word out and to get people not to target them (as has happened several times in this thread), I don't think the idea that we need to examine our motives is particularly compelling, no matter how tidily expressed. THEY think we are helping, others are free to think whatever they like.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:08 PM

Duck, I wasn't saying you were part of the lynch mob. You've been admirably sensitive about how you've dealt with this. I had in mind Gene R's tone and the person who suggested that the appropriate response was to call in a TV documentary team.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:28 PM

Jack - please accept my apologies on that. I know Gene R personally and I like him, but I suppose it's fair to say he can be high-strung. As can I. And oddly enough, most of us would recognize this was an attribute of Bob Brozman's as well.

It's difficult to keep emotions in check, and I'm happy that most people have.

I'm off for some more of those deep breaths!

DB

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Disgusted in Santa Cruz
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:37 PM

It sure seems like he had the perfect cover for carrying out these acts.
-Rarely played in the USA, due to "expensive travel costs". I'm sure a plane ticket to Singapore is much cheaper than to Ohio.
-Travel alone all over the world, rarely taking his wife along.
-Not bringing/hiring anyone to help with his 15 suitcases and guitars, although I'm sure there'd be young guys that would do it for free. They'd have to stay where he stayed, that'd be no good.
-Constantly staying at the homes of well wishers to "save money", although he was wealthy yet played the poor struggling musician part.
-Create a "charity" to teach young girls to learn the guitar.
-Videos posted elsewhere of his performance just two weeks before his death not only show he hadn't lost anything, but he had also added playing bongo drums with his hands on a wooden box to his act. Not necessary and certainly not something someone with oncoming problems with their hands would start doing. Then he has to selfishly off himself in his own home, making it heartbreaking to be around for his current wife and a tough sell for her should she want to sell it? A selfish act in itself. Noone was/is going to do any documentary on this guy. In the big picture he was a nobody outside of the tiny niche of people that were even aware he existed. Reading between the lines it seems his first wife in this discussion, who had two daughters prior to their relationship, found out after the fact he had indeed molested them as children unbeknown to her. That's crushing for a parent. As a parent with a daughter myself, I can only imagine the guilt she has felt for years for not being aware and preventing this. I can only assume Gary Atkinson has felt the same for many years. I for one am glad these details are coming out. I can only imagine the staggering numbers of potential victims around the world affected by this serial molester over the last 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:38 PM

I am not sure what the motives have to do with it if people are being totally honest and their motives are non-harmful. What if there was a fire and you put it out. The highest motive would probably be altruism. But perhaps you wanted to be on TV. Perhaps you wanted to get an award. Perhaps you wanted to impress a cute guy. Perhaps you wanted to get points for purgatory. It probably would not matter to the person you pulled out of a burning house what your motives are.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,former student
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:08 PM

okay, time for some clarification.



Bob has been playing "bongo drums" with his hands on the "box" (called a cajon, spanish for ...yep, "box") on stage for at least fifteen years.   Not a recent addition.

Haley often accompanied him on his travels.


I'm not saying any of this proves anything, so cool your jets.   Just trying to rein in some of the wilder speculations and theorizing going on.


as to motives: some people on this thread have the best of motives and are genuinely trying to help the victims.   Others are lookieloos at the train wreck, vying with each other to see who can heap the most vitriol on the dead guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Zitty
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:55 PM

There are indeed some disturbing grey areas in this story..

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:49 PM

There is an interesting video interview with Bob that is posted on another site talking about his charity. He speaks about getting donations to give kids instruments they can play. About 14 minutes into the interview, apropo of absolutely nothing he has talked about up until that time, he says: "I hope you don't get sued for me saying this but I believe every time you make a musician of someone, there is one less criminal in the world. Except Michael Jackson." I don't have the video in front of me so it is not an exact quote, but that is basically what he said.

It is a strange comment to make and it comes out of nothing other than his talking about the children he wanted to help. I'm not a psychologist, but I found the interview telling in lew of recent events.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:52 PM

Here is the link. The quote comes about the 14 and a half minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Ua2lNmIK8

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:53 PM

Brozman has had a charity name registered online since 2003-4, he doesn't seem to have a website for it, its in development and is listed on the pdf at his website.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene -Adelphi
Date: 08 May 13 - 11:27 PM

May 8, 2013

Dear friends & others:

First let me thank, from the bottom of my heart, whomever it was that helped this "old guy" out on the "Obit" thread, in bumping this thread to "above the line", I didn't even know that there was a "below the line" seriously, and I apologize for my ignorance.

I also apologize for being AWOL for these past 24 hours plus, but apparently, the VERY high sunspot cycle caused my 6 (in house) computers to simutaneously crash, when trying to access this site, although interestingly enough, neither of the two house cellphones had a similar crash....hmmmmm modern technology, ain't it great!? "Bonk"!

I'm going to keep each of these update posts short, in the hopes that short posts might get through between the Sunspot flareups...

follow-up post shortly,

Sincerely
Gene R.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi Records- Gene R
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:33 AM

May 9, 2013

post #2 In an on-going sequence of posts which will eventually answer ALL of your questions, and also respond to all, or to atleast MOST of your posts, with particularity, to those posts that I believe to have been "undeserved" personal attacks, posted mostly in the rush of "taking sides", and or out of sheer ignorance. BTW "ignorance" is NOT an accusation, it merely indicates that the "posting" person is NOT aware of the facts, the history, etc. Lord knows, in my 70 years, let there be no doubt whatsoever that I'm guilty numerous times of "Statements" out of ignorance, because I had the full faith & belief that I was ALWAYS right! Duh, I wasn't and NO ONE is....I can explain psychologically how I became of that belief, but suffice it to say, I'm no longer "self delusional" that way! :-)

BTW, please allow me to do several of these short posts before you feel the need to totally evicerate and /or to otherwise cut me to ribbons, before I have my say......um much of my very "serious" (say) has already disappeared from this site due to extra ordinary sunspot activity.....all I want is my "uncensored" say..... much of which ALL of YOU will find, at the very least, extraordinarily mind blowing...
Particularly the "John Fahey" aspects, and the "Backwards Sam Firk" aspects....no shit.....

post #3 to follow shortly

Best
Gene R.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:07 AM

May 9, 2013

Post #3 (So far so good)

BTW- Again, please, out of kindness, if nothing else, don't begin the apositional, evicerating counter response postings until I've at least had close to having my say...give me at least a few more posts
before the attacks & responses...I've already been sunspotted to death here----HAVE MOICY! :-)

OK, where to begin/continue...um, OK--- it's really tough to live and relive this stuff over & over again; BOTH the good & bad memories, actually ALL of these memories are defying of separation; and having to relive them in their entirety, over and over again is, in fact, cruel and unusual punishment!!

With that in mind, let me take this opportunity, to state the following: Both this post and all of my following posts, as well as Chapter 18 (in it's subject entirety) in my upcoming book entitled- "A Hard Act To Follow" are NOW Both/all dedicated to Dr. Duck!

In my almost 50 years in the music business I have never had the honor, first hand, of watching/interfacing w/an individual, let alone a Musician of serious stature, who "stood up to be counted"! Duck, believe me, after MUCH soul searching Angst, made the decision of his life----to come out from behind the "Anonimity" of a "Guest" post, and to identify himself as the "Statured" Artist that he is, with the full knowlege, that in doing so could/would absolutely impact BOTH his personal life as well as his professional career.....he made the hardest decision of his life by standing up in public and "telling the truth"! How many of you out there have EVER done such a thing?

I can say, in retrospect, that to much leser extents that I've similarly done such, but it's MUCH easier for a Record Company producer to do such, with little to no consequences, then it is for a Musician to do it with EVERYTHING on the line. I salute you Duck, forever!

How you managed to single-handedly, fend off the "slings & arrows of outrageous fortune"...is quite beyond me... if the sunspots hadn't "Bonked" me, I'd have been there too.

Next post, #4 will address my personal interface with Brozman in the early/mid seventies, and will begin the "Fahey" abuse saga, yep from MY personal experience, and then an even more personal horrific experience ALL with KNOWN Folk/Blues musicians.....umm hear me out, it's horrible, but a necessary documentation of the reality of our
"Folk/Blues" misbelief that our "Folk/Blues" heroes can do no wrong!

Sincerely
Gene R.

Next post #4, follows shortly!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:44 AM

May 9, 2013

Post #4 (again, so far so good) However, you might want to copy these posts to a safe "saved" location... it just might be that the "sunspot gods" are merely sleeping....better safe then sorry, many previous posts (by me & others)have disappeared by anomylous(sp?) sunspot activity.

OK, once again where was I, Oh yeah--- My Brozman interfaces circa
approximately 1972-1975- NYC.

I personally.........oops, OH CRAP, one of my other computers started screaming a while ago, which I've been ignoring, shame on me.....

The screaming computer has announced to me that there's "suddenly" a new Brozman thread on the main menu (Brozman on the backbeat).....however, upon examination we discover that it's NOT a new thread, but in fact, it's a five year old thread with only two posts on it dating from June of 2008, not counting MY new post.

It's highly unlikely that either of the original posters, exist anymore, if, in fact they ever did. I've offered a $200 reward to get to the bottom of it!

Do I suspect that one of the moderators here are Pissed, and that this new thread appearing on the main menu above the line, was installed/manufactured by a moderator in order to diminish the impact of this thread? You Betcha Red Rider, ONLY a moderator has the ability to resurrect or, dare I say, MANUFACTURE, such an old thread to "main menu" status, yep you'd better believe it dear friends, that's my opinion, coupled with the Heisenberg "uncertainty Principal" and Accams Razor as my scientific basis! Period!

They've already achieved one of their objectives by dragging me off topic.....Dear friends deal with that bogus red herring as you will, I'd suggest ignoring it, or venting your spleen at the moderators, you know who they are, and only at the moderators.

Speaking of which, I'm at a severe disadvantage here, I don't know who the moderators are, except for SRS & Joe, won't someone here please identify for me the other, on thread moderators, or won't you moderators please identify yourselves so I'll know whose ass to gently caress in the future! :-)

Best for now
Gene R.

PS- Part #5 to follow directly

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:37 AM

Four posts in a row with a lot of rage but not one scrap of information about Brozman isn't very promising, Gene.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:56 AM

These lengthy and incoherent streams of consciousness are not helping anyone Gene. You're making no kind of sense. In fact I would like to encourage you to stop posting unless you want to actually undermine the credibility of allegations being made against Brozman. This is not a personal attack.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:19 AM

wtf are you talking about Gene? get a grip.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stefan Wirz
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:18 AM

... is *this* the state of mind we're all looking forward to when 70 - glad I still have another 6 years ;-)

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 08:22 AM

Gene's apparent motive is to make anyone who discovers or is sent to this thread, to review the allegations against brozman, comes away with the sense that his accusers are completely unhinged.

And my guess is, based on the current state of this thread, that it will work.

But it makes me very sad. Imagine a teenager who, as a child, told his parents that she had suffered abuse at the hands of brozman but was disbelieved. Imagine that teenager finding this thread a few days ago, feeling vindicated, and then trying to summon the courage to show it to her parents and try to get some affirmation and some help.

She wakes up today and sees this mess. "Never mind," she thinks. They wil disbelieve me again. They'll say I'm crazy like the rest of these people.

Gene, apparently Bob is an old friend since 1972, from the glory days of Fahey and Stewart, and you are here to thoroughly discredit his accusers.

I have no idea if these allegations are true or not, but if they are, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 09 May 13 - 08:26 AM

May 9, 2013

Post #5 (actually a continuation of post #4 which was unexpectedly interuppted....however to avoid confusion THIS IS post #5:

OOOPs, three hours later

OK Dear friends, sorry for the long delay, I started this post almost three hours ago, & please to remember that patience(sp?)is a virtue....

So as follows:

Before I began this post, I had layed a fully baited trap on the "Brozman Backbeat" "Bogus Thread" located at the top of the Mudcat site mainpage. I guess I should now reveal to you all, the fact that I have an MA in Social Psychology, from Washington Univ. St. Louis, yep the very same College that Brozman attended 10 years later, and also as a "Child of the 60s" I'm absolutely well grounded in provocative "Guerilla Warfare" of the "non-violent" nature, which is apparently a long forgotten art, but I digress.....suffice it to say almost thee hours ago, my #5 laptop computer started screaming, indicating that "someone" had gone for the bait "hook line & sinker", meaning that someone felt the overwhelming need to post in response to my "bait" post!!!

Lo & behold it was none other then Mr Campin, which quite frankly surprised me not at all..... I quickly responded calling him out, and telling him in no uncertain terms that he was "BUSTED"!!

Allow me to explain this dear friends, I'm quite convinced that many of you on this thread, driven by curiosity went over and looked at the thread, BUT NONE OF YOU FELT THE NEED TO POST THERE!.....back now to psych/social psych (I'm sorry, I can't help it)..nonetheless many if not most of you are familiar with sociopathic behaviour, as for example as manifested by serial killers...almost 100% of the time, sociopaths are DRIVEN to return to the scene of their crime,in order to fully revel in the devestation that they've wrought, whether it's the equivalent of sexual gratification to the perpetrator some other type of gratification varies from perpetrator to perpetrator!

The point here is that CAMPIN and ONLY CAMPIN felt the need to not only return, but absent any acrimony, he felt the further need to post and stir the pot! He's Busted!!

Let me ppost this now & come up immediately with post #6

Gene R.

Post #6 follows immediately

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 08:40 AM

Gene, are you off your meds?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene-Peace
Date: 09 May 13 - 08:43 AM

May 9, 2013

Dear guest:

If you're going to make exactly wrong accusations, & I mean frankly that you are totally off base here, which you'll shortly understand, kindly note the following.... this is the VERY LAST TIME that I'm going to respond to an anonymous guest post....if you have a serious opinion or factual information to to add then kindly have the balls to indentify yourself, enough already from all of you piss-ant, ball-less wonders, seriously identify yourselves or please just have the self discipline to hold your tongues until ALL of the facts are in front of you. Opinions are like "assholes" everyone's got one. Nothing personal here, except to say that you're either part of the problem or part of the solution (guess what I think you are).....I will not be further interupted by any more of this crap

Sincerely & respectfully posted

Gene R;

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Mike Brosnan
Date: 09 May 13 - 09:13 AM

Hi Gene. My name is Mike Brosnan. I'm just some guy who plays guitar and works in mental health. I don't have a degree, but I recognize batshit when I see it. PLEASE STOP TURNING THIS INTO A FREAK SHOW! Seriously... PLEASE! Offer something with substance or stop.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi Records- Gene R
Date: 09 May 13 - 09:38 AM

May 9, 2013

Post #6, more or less.....whew, I don't know how you did it Dr Duck, but this is most assuredly no fun at all...but it needs be done regardless of the slings & arrows..........

So, where was I (oops I now hear another one of my computers screaming, but as I said, no more interuptions, give me 3 minutes to shut down #'s 1 thru 5 laptops, be right back, I promise......well er uh, it's actually been more like 7 minutes, Mea Culpa....

Now once more into the bleach, er I meant the "Breach"?

Let me try to quickly put a wrap on the Campin insanity, so that I might finally get to the meat of these posts...hoo hah...

...remember dear friends that patience is a virtue.....I apologize once more for sitting it out, but once Campin realized that he'd get no satisfaction/fulfillment from me on the "Bogus" Backbeat thread, he had no choice whatsoever, but to bring his personal attacks against me to this thread, again the final proof of his sociopathic behaviour.... the only questions in my mind now, about Campin is, whether or not he's a moderator on this thread, or whether or not he's got the ear of a moderator over here, or whether he's a consumate webmeister/hacker and has literally wormed his way in through the back door of the Mudcat site so as to masquerade as a moderator? Anyone having input on this, please vcontact me by e-mail. as a final wrap on Campin, be VERY careful my friends with your interfacing with him, he's a very bright and most dangerous sociopath. If you have any doubts about this, click on his name a view his hundreds of posts on the web beginning in Dec/Jan you'll note very quickly that the majority of his posts are designed to inflame situations, and cause "flaming wars" on sites all across the web. Be very careful my friends, he's one very dangerous MF!

OK, since MOST of you are running out of patience, I'm going to leap to the "gory details" which many of you have long since given up hope that you'll ever see....

Let me break here, for long enough to post this one, and then begin the "gory details that will astound and sicken you......

Gene R

Post #7 (gory details follow)

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 09 May 13 - 10:29 AM

May 9, 2013

Post # 6 and 1/2

Sorry Dear friends and others, although I shut down computers 1 thru 5, I did not shut #6, which is directly to the left of this laptop which I'm posting on #7.

I have to admit to human frailty....and while I was setting up for critical post #7, I fell prey to reading the underneath posts from Fahey, Beauregard, and myself......I have to admit to rolling over in uncontrollable laughter on my bed here.....I guess that although no-one knows what I'm about to post, nonetheless, aparently many folks out there have lost what's left of their minds in anticipation......sorry, but the Devil made me do it...........please ignore all of the static.....when I'm through, I think that most of it will evaporate.

Real post #7 to follow......it concerns my personal family, which no-one will be able to counterfeit.......you will know immediately MY real post, it's heavy so get ready!

Gene R.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 10:34 AM

Am I the only one scratching my head here?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,The Oracle Adelphi
Date: 09 May 13 - 10:37 AM

Is there a way to block this lunatic's IP or disable Guest posts (realize I am posting as a guest but would be happy to obtain & use an account).

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:00 AM

No, don't stop it. It's got to be the funniest rant ever. I came here from another forum following a link posted there. I waded through every post above and became quite despondent with what I was learning about BB. That is until I got close to the bottom of the thread and picked up on someone with 5 or 6 computers, that all crash at the same time, and then give out messages (I wonder if they are actually switched on?) and... well, let's just say that just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:09 AM

Please do not block this man's IP. This whole story has already crossed into Bizarro land on multiple levels and at this point the best thing for all concerned is to air out as much as possible as openly as possible. Many of the players and people affected will have "issues" - it only makes sense that the witnesses will too.

Please tell us the Gory Details Gene - Everyone will take your testimony much more seriously if you tell us the specifics about Brozman first and then explain the sunspots and such.

Just give us a shorthand summary first of the worst you know and then come back to fill it out, okay?

Thanks Gene!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,anonymous
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:15 AM

Gene, My husband suggest you be put on "triangulation" watch as he is doing for me. I love the ones who keep saying "tread lightly". Ooh, scary.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Fox Mulder
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:24 AM

Some computers do indeed scream when aliens manipulate the sunspots. There are secret studies in the basement of the FBI headquarters in Washington to that effect.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:27 AM

Sad filibuster of what was an interesting thread...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:28 AM

We are patient my friend - but some of us are older than you, more debilitated, and fear we might not live long enough to learn the truth about this case before it goes the way of the MJ case with lots of payoffs and gag orders.

Seriously - if there IS truth to any of this - quick public testimony is essential to preventing it from eventually being swept under the rare Persian carpet like so many other scandals of the rich. IF there is truth to this the potential for victims worldwide is enormous. Therefore we need to hear what you got pronto pops!

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:31 AM

There are two possibilities here.

One is that Brozman is the posthumous victim of false accusations.

The other is that the accusations are true and he caused great suffering to some people.

In neither case is Gene The Nutter the object of concern, and wherever the truth may lie, this is not something that should be made into a circus act.

Listen up Gene: This is not about you. And if you think this kind of behaviour is a good way to do PR for your record company, think again.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Andy Alexis
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:33 AM

He certainly isn't doing the victims any favors with this odd display.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:34 AM

There is a lot going on here that doesn't have to do with Brozman. Is there any way someone who actually knows our most active poster could do a welfare check?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:35 AM

Hunter? Is that you?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:20 PM

I think Gene is getting ready to tell us he has the same vile problem that Mr. Brozman has been accused of. He wants to confess to something, just give him time

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Andy Alexis
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:27 PM

..and it looks like he wants to throw John Fahey and Backwards Sam under the bus while he's at it....

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:32 PM

Those of us who witnessed the "cheese" incident at the Getaway know nothing is out of the realm of possibilities.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,guest (anon)
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:56 PM

I'm going back to Santa Cruz dot com....this has become a food fight.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Anonymous Interested 4th Party
Date: 09 May 13 - 01:01 PM

THANK YOU DUCK BAKER. You are braver than me. Though I TEND to agree with you, I can't reveal my identity because I have worked closely with Bob Brozman on a few occasions, and was scheduled to work with him again shortly... And must continue even now to work with extremely interested parties whom I know extremely well and who knew him extremely well. More than most, I can safely say. And for now, these interested parties refuse to believe or accept any part of these accusations in any way and are waiting for something concrete before making judgments of any kind. Again, I have worked with Bob personally, and had the opportunity to spend a few occasions with Bob and his wife at dinner and in other social situations. I really like Haley, and have wept bitter tears for her since this has happened. I have read every single post with great interest since this thread started and I discovered these comments. I have personally met Duck Baker, though only on one occasion, and spent an afternoon talking and getting to know him well enough to trust that if he says he has made contacts, phone calls and inquiries and knows a bit of inside information, it most likely is the truth.

I can confirm that during a workshop which I personally attended, he cracked sexually laced jokes continuously.

This incredible tragedy has spawned me to read about pedophilia. What strikes me the most about this story (IF IT'S TRUE) is how such a musical genius, a hero of the live musical world, a person that brought so much delight and happiness to so many audiences and seemed to live such a magical life from the outside was such a tortured, lonely and sick individual. Do not get me wrong. I FEEL FIRST AND MOST DEEPLY FOR HIS (possible) VICTIMS. But his story goes beyond anything similar. The kind of respect and admiration Bob had from the musical world is rare, nothing to compare to that of Michael Jackson, as Bob was a far better musician. Why such an intelligent man did not seek out help absolutely amazes me. Why he was not able to process what he was doing in his mind and acknowledge it in his conscious mind is incomprehensible. Why someone with the economic resources he had access to never thought he could be treated and cured and lead a somewhat normal life. I think this raises several questions. What causes pedophilia? Are pedophiles sociopaths? Is it because they were abused themselves? How can a wife and close family not know? How could so many of his colleagues not know? This is a link to a very good article from the Mayo Clinic. Having read quickly I'd like to say it appears that the scientific community agrees that pedophiles are    SICK PEOPLE.    MENTALLY ILL.    This is mental illness, people. And IT DOES NOT JUSTIFY IT, but it can explain it. Pedophiles often have more than one psychological/psychiatric illness (see pages 5-8 in the below article)

http://www.abusewatch.net/pedophiles.pdf

This is too big and too important. All you need to do is google long and short term effects of sexual abuse pedophiles. Yes, I will wait for something more tangible before pronouncing myself, out of respect for family and friends, but the point I want to make here is that Bob may have produced many victims, but rather than just demonizing him, see the man in his sickness. That does NOT take way his responsibility for his actions, of course.

If the allegations are true, Bob's life will become an emblematic story for understanding the genius musician and pedophile mind. God bless his poor victims, unknowing family members friends and fans... and him, in those last few seconds of of his consciousness, knowing he was taking his life and what it all meant, feeling what he must have been feeling, and I mean in every way.

Anonymous Interested 4th Party

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 09 May 13 - 01:17 PM

May 9, 2013

It was my intention to lead up to this gently, but it's now demanding
of posting right now.

I have to admit,however, that I've held back from posting these terrible stories out of worry & concern about the real/potential negative impact that they might have on my upcoming releases (Fahey and Firk multi CD & DVD memorial anthologies)... but Duck (my new hero), has made it much easier now for me when added to the atrocious and personal, heinous attacks leveled upon me from every quarter, including with emphasis the fact that it was MY post on the obit site which was chosen to be the very first post to be bumped over here with attendant un-deserved commentary, which cut me to the bone. Finally, thank you Duck for reminding me about my so-called roots, and my (original) philosophy, to say embarrassed is to let me off way too easily/lightly for a Label, the ONLY Label that was willing to Release Patrick Sky's "Songs That Made America Famous.

So, for those of you that felt the need, for whatever reason, to attack me personally, assuming that I was just out to get Brozman, or that my motives were even more venal, because I'm obviously... "out to win friends and influence your uncle" to misquote the sage.....the following story is for each and every one of you on this thread that have ABSOLUTELY no personal interface whatsoever with actionable pedofilia, right up front and personal in your own family. Unless you qualify with personal experience, won't you please back off long enough to learn something, assuming that's even possible for you dolts to possibly learn & digest anything other then what you want to hear.

Story:

Once upon a time there was a girl called Carol, my sister (now deceased) who attended and graduated cum laude from Antioch College in Yellow Springs, Ohio.....in this same period of time there was a young man (a musician) by the name of Michael A Stewart, initials backwards SAM, thus Backwards Sam (where the Firk part came from I;m not at liberty to divulge- sworn to secrecy)....Michael had been attending College in Oregon, possibly Reed College (or perhaps Goddard), whichever one was located in Oregon, which interestingly enough was also attended by Ry Cooder, you can't make this shit up, btw- Firk did not graduate from Reed, but in his final semester he & Ry were dorm room-mates (best guess circa 1967/8/9). As an interesting side note Mike told that Ry has a "glass eye" and also that Ry was blown away by Firk's Country Blues picking style...you can't make this up kids, but I digress again--- there came a time that Firk returned to DC from Oregon, and he and my Sister became lovers, I let my sister know that I opposed the upcoming marriage
but who the Fu*k was I to interfere with true love? (What a jerk I was at age 28 or so! LOL)
Not very long thereafter, they married, borrowed money from my folks and bought a country style house in Mount Airy, MD.
Things wound their course and the marrieds settled in, Firk running his 78 auctions, again financed by my folks loans, and Sister Carol commuting every day to the middle school where she was a fukll time teacher.l....
Meanwhile, during this period of time, Firk at least twice a week came over to my parents house wherein was the Adelphi Recording studio (more on this later) suffice it to say Firk was notn only an Adelphi Recording Artist, but he was also employed by Adelphi at least two days a week, to analyze and grade the hundreds of hours of blues recordings from our
"family" blues expedition of 1969, which was evventually released, qat first on lp, and later as the basis of the Adelphi Blues Vault Series........
I'm going to break here lest this gets too long to post...
be right back up...
Gene

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:05 PM

Gene, you are insufferable and uninterestingly verbose. If you have a point to make that has any relevance you will have diminished the impact by your obtuseness and undeserved self importance. If working with you is anything like listening to you than you must not inspire much confidence in your customers.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:08 PM

One niggle I can't make sense of.

Someone here said that "grand jury" procedures in the US are secret.

If it was secret, how come Brozman could have seen it coming? If they were doing their job, shouldn't the first he knew about it be when the cops smashed his door in? How could he have had enough warning to plan a suicide?

Somebody clue us in on US criminal procedure as it applies to this?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,former student
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:23 PM

I had the very same question, Jack. For this story to hang together, Bob had to have a mole in the DA's office.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:25 PM

Sunspots.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:26 PM

Grand juries - I've sat on them and had enough friends harassed by them.

The grand jury here in the U.S. is just a tool of the prosecutor. They actually return whatever indictment is asked of them 99.9% of the time. Occasionally a case will be brought before a grand jury if there is political pressure only to have the prosecutor lead the jury not to indict, but normally cases are only brought if indictment is intended and in that case indictments are almost always issued. Virtually no evidence is required to be presented before a grand jury - they will vote indictments consistently with the flimsiest of hearsay. It's a majority vote of the jurors rather than the unanimous verdict required of a criminal trial jury.

That said, the fact that a grand jury is meeting and being presented with a particular case may or may not be secret. The specifics of the proceedings are always secret and sealed as they are occurring, and are frequently the subject of gag orders to force non-disclosure, but potential defendants are frequently aware, co-conspirators may be forced to testify under immunity, lawyers are negotiating with prosecutors, etc.

Plus plenty typically leaks out anyway - corrupt court officers sell information, and so on.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Andy Alexis
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:27 PM

All sorts of possibilities: it could have been a civil suit; perhaps he was questioned by the grand jury himself. We may find out these details in due course. We may not, too. If you read back in the comments, in the case (unrelated to Brozman) in which my family was subjected to, the victim in my family wanted NOTHING to do with any action, criminal, civil, anything, whatsoever. She just wanted peace.

[utterly unimportant detail confirmation: I have heard that Ry Cooder has a glass eye from a friend of mine who met him briefly]

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:38 PM

Grand Jury proceedings are indeed "secret" in that they are closed to the public and transcripts are not obtainable except in extraordinary circumstances. However, the fact that a Grand Jury investigation is being planned -- or has been convened to investigate someone -- is not private.

I live in California and was called for jury duty at the Grand Jury investigation of Michael Jackson for child molestation. Fortunately or unfortunately I was not chosen as an actual juror, but I well recall the mobs of reporters outside the courtroom, jostling for information. What went on inside was indeed "secret," but the fact that the GJ was convening for the Jackson case was well known to all.

Thus it MAY be that Brozman knew the GJ was about to convene. (I am not saying that was the case -- only that it is possible.)

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:41 PM

If he was court scheduled it would have appeared on the respective court calendar which would have been removed post death. Santa Cruz doesn't have one online.

The only way you would be able to find out info on that would probably be through private investigator who specializing in those things. Any communication to him might be in a folder somewhere.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,anonymous
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:42 PM

stop with the grand jury, already.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:50 PM

I have a Bob Brozman baritone guitar. Do I need to keep it away from my ukes?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,former student
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:51 PM

if this story is real and has legs, I'm thinking he would have been subpoena'd.    THAT would leave documentary evidence.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:51 PM

There ARE secret federal/state grand juries and cases brought under total secrecy - but the ordinary criminal GJs would by the prospective defendant to be getting ready to indict him/her.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:55 PM

Sorry - "would be known by the prospective defendant".

Bottom line - Brozman would have known for sure if he was about to be charged. But all that is a leap from what has been publicly discussed so far. We are all just speculating until the victims' people release a statement...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 03:11 PM

Everyone knows Ry Cooder has a glass eye. Lost his real left eye when he was four. Story I heard was that Jerry Garcia's older brother cut it off with an axe.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 09 May 13 - 03:59 PM

KMay 9, 2013

Sorry kids, I was interupted by a knock on the door, pursuant to a donation by me of 80 ft of heliax transmission cable to the local Ham Radio Club.....nothing is ever simple Mea Culpa

Oh Jeez, now I'm going to be
accused of some sort of conspiracy involving
Brozman and Heliax transmission cable! Actually you'd be 100% correct ...although Bob died at his own hands, of carbon monoxide poisoning, in his own garage, no one has bothered to mention that he also had 80 feet of heliax wrapped around his body!

Oh, and another quickie--- I've just finished previewing some of the most outrageous posts that I've ever seen, with people coming up with all sorts of delusional projections and possible motives for this post, all of which are so out to lunch as to be laughable, however there is one anonymous one that refers to a "cheese incident", I've been racking my brains about such an incident, but to no avail, there was a "wine" bottle incident, there was a "who is doing the "cleanup" incident, but a cheese incident.....hmmmmm, oh wait a minute, I think I do remember a "cheese" incident, except for the fact that YOU should be apologizing for it....so here's the complete story folks:

Sandra my wife & I took it upon ourselves (more than 5 years ago) to host the after hour musical Jams, in the "all night" music "Peace Cabin"...after a couple of years we became known as the "Peace Cabin Elves"......further, every year, out of our own pockets, we'd set up a complete spread: everything from "Starbucks" coffee, to sodas of all types, and chips & dips & cookies, and sandwich meat and Cheese and grapes, etc. ALL out of our pockets, generally around $400 worth of stuff. which we, from experience, knew would cover at least 3 late nights up until usually 4 AMin the morning, at which time we took on the obligation of cleaning up everthing, rearranging the tables & chairs for set-up at the 8AM workshop, and, of course we gathered up all of the leftover spread to put on ice in our run so as to be ready for the next evening.....however on day one, we were in a great hurry to set up, so stupidly we placed whole blocks of cheese Swiss, Muenster, cheddar & Brie....usually we would have cut them into quarters, and every night only a "quarter" would be out, well imagine our surprise when we were in the final stages of cleanup, to discover two whole blocks of cheese had totally disappeared (average cost of these huge blocks $40 to $50 apiece! I immediately inquired of the few musicians still standing as to whether or not they might have seen anyone helping to clean up by removing food from the table...it wasn't lost on ANY of them....they ALL pointed to the right & down the hall to the"Three Girls Room"! Suffice it bto say, no one was willing to confront the issue, so it fell to me....with witnesses in tow I banged very heavily, several times on the cheese theives door, announcing loudly thatt I was there to retrieve the stolen vcheese, finally in the darkened room, a female answered the door, and in no uncertain terms I demanded the return of $100 dollars worth of our, and the next three days of musicians Cheese....after a bit of mumbling and fumbling, the cheese in it's entirety was returned through the darkened door. OH, you mean THAT cheese incident Janie?

Let's get this straight, you will now come on this thread, identify yourself and make a public apology here & now. If not you WILL be confronted by me and SAndra in the Peace Cabin, where once again we will demand a public apology. I'd do it now the easy way....an in public incident will leave you socially damaged....it's your choice!

Sorry for the long/short interlude folks, but it needed to be done!

Follows shortly part #7 (I think it's 7 ) :-)

Soon Cum
Gene R.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:02 PM

somebody PLEASE go in and "sunspot" this guy's computer...permanently.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:05 PM

...Waiting with baited breath for part 7 of the go-nowhere non-story by Mr. Forgot-My-Prozac-Today...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Homer S.
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:09 PM

Umm, cheese!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:15 PM

"I have a Bob Brozman baritone guitar. Do I need to keep it away from my ukes?"

Really tacky and in extremely poor taste.

It's interesting to me that so many of the posts on this thread are from anonymous guests. They seem to be drawn to this one like the folks who gawk at an accident.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:20 PM

Just tell us what you say you know and enough of all this silliness.
You are a ridiculous person going on like this about a subject as serious as this.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:29 PM

Unless this thread actually goes somewhere other than bizarre anecdotes about cheese and paranoid delusional accusations against Jack Campin, and fast, it's time this shrieking catastrophe of a thread was put to bed. I really REALLY don't see how it can be of ANY help to this man's supposed victims.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:56 PM

May 9, 2013

Post 7a

OK I'll play:

Yo Joe, please give me a call at home later tonight, I have a business proposition for you based upon the following:

As far as I've been able to research, this thread aparently featuring me as the whipping boy, has garnered more posts in a two day period then any other thread in Mudcat history......I guess I'm doing something right, eh wot?

Anyway, part of my business proposal to you goes sorta like this:
beginning tomorrow, mudcat should change it's policy regarding Anonymous Guest posts....ALL such anonymous guest posts should be charged $1.50 through paypal for the privelige of ANONYMOUS Guest postings, as opposed to a "free" membership which, of course, would include All pertinent data regarding being publicly accessible by the posters posts.....
Seriously, the word will get out, very quickly, that for a mere $1.50 (oh there should also be a 300 word limit per post) you get to totally Trash Gene Rosenthal, on line, and that randomly Gene will actually respond to 10% of the posts......further Gene will change "subject matter" at least every other week......I can hold court on copyright law, record/cd mastering. microphone techniques, record label/distribution in the current media dominated network, overseas licensing, ASCAP vs BMI vs SESAC, Digital vs analog recording, digital recording using "pro-tools, or Reaper, etc AD Nauseum forever, with bonide "Expertise"! Think about it Joe.....Mudcat could easily gross 500 to 1000 dollars `a week with me leading the band! :-)
(a modest proposal)

Sincerely

Gene R.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:15 PM

Sheesh, I'm going to throw my small collection of Adelphi records & CDs in the dumpster along with all the Brozman stuff.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:16 PM

Jesus Christ.   Get over yourself.   Go around to peoples' funerals stark naked and gibbering baby talk and you will get the exact same reaction. Go crawl back under your rock now.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:28 PM

Dear Gene R.

You should pay US for a total waste of time. I really came here to find out more about this sad story of a man I had respect for.
You have hijacked the discussion and are coming across as delusional and self-centered. After putting up with your infantile posts and really bad business proposal I have decided to make this statement to you:
If it is true that Bob Brozman did what he supposed to have done, and If he were still alive, I would rather spend a whole day with him than one minute in your presence.
Get lost and let the adults continue this discussion.
BTW, sorry about still being anonymous, but I feel that if you knew who I was, you would probably tell people I was your best friend....or throw me under the bus....

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene= Adelphi
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:41 PM

cut me a break:

you do not own ANY Adelphi CDs or LPs-----Folkies are absolutely the worst violaters of the copyright laws.....they swap whole ipods, they download from illegal sites, the burn CDR copies to swap in kind with their friends, etc AD Nauseum........

Naird/Afim, years ago, contracted an independant consulting agency to do a statiscally dependable study on this issue......and in all categories folkies were the absolute worst in terms of ACTUALLY buying ANY legitimate music through legitimate retail sources! Who do you think you're kidding? I;vebeen involved in the record business for more then 40 years........its my business to know these things....
some seriously delusional indidual here actually suggested that I was here to promote Adelphi Records LOL to whom? No one here BUYS music, they steal it, seriously.......our website bangs almost a million hits a year.....that's what we call promotion, and we support our distributors, licensees and Artists.....I can't believe that you folks are so delusional as to think that I'm here promoting Adelphi
to whom? deadbeat folkies! LOL

Get a real life seriously.....oh, and if you actually have some Adelphi LPs they're very highly valued items on e-bay.....don/t be a totaslly stupid schmuck, auction them off! Jerk

GR

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:45 PM

I can't believe that you folks are so delusional as to think that I'm here promoting Adelphi
>>>>>



why ARE you here? serious question.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:58 PM

>> oh, and if you actually have some Adelphi LPs they're very highly valued items on e-bay

No Stephen Spano, just some Roy Bookbinder, BSF, maybe Delaware Water Gap...did you do their record? Before the "incident"? And I think a Paul Geremia.

I was thinking at first of some really great records, but now I remember those were on OJL.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Casper the Friendly Guest
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:00 PM

Well Gene, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I actually DO own records you have released. I have records by Rev. Gary Davis, Furry Lewis, Henry Townsend, and (my favorite - a truly great record) the one by George & Ethel McCoy. Would you like me to send you a photograph of the record sleeves with today's date stamp, so that you can wipe some egg yolk from thy furrowed brow?
PS - I am not now nor have I ever been a "folkie" of any kind or configuration.
PPS - if you have anything of value to add, please do so once and for all, without any expansive digressions or rambling anecdotes which are of no interest to anyone but yourself.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:04 PM

Looks like Gene's weak spot is his weak business.
Seems to me that you are a guy that really craves respect and awe.
Do you really have to ride the coat tails of a dead, supposed pedophile to get the recognition that you feel is deserved?
Gene, you might want to retake marketing 101and then post somewhere that has people that who give a darn....about you. Man, you are tiresome.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:35 PM

First, let me say, I will post here anonymously, because the whackadoodle nature of the way the parties who are spreading this story are acting, I can't feel confident that they won't go on the attack of anyone who questions their claims, much less disputes them.

There is nothing conscionable about the way this whole episode has been reported. I find myself suspicious of the entire story about Brozman, though I admit, I have avoided any details. I knew him, and though he could be one cranky son-of-a gun, I never saw a shred of this type of behavior. I'm relieved to see there are others out there that don't automatically believe this just because someone files a court case.   Remember "innocent until proven guilty"? Remember that - you know - the whole basis of our justice system.   Feels an awful lot to me like someone with desire for vengence, not justice, is responsible for posting this story all over the web. It seems like someone who wants to be the center of a whole lot of attention - not someone protecting their child.

I want to add this for consideration. I am female, middle 50's. I was sexually molested as a child by my grandfather, as were several of my female cousins. He was a devout fundamentalist Christian, during a very repressed era.   I was well into my 40's when it dawned on me that he may have molested my mother - who was a very unstable personality all my life - and very paranoid and abusive and controlling.   

When I was 8 or 9 years old, I told my Dad about a "touching" incident with a male teenage cousin and my father stuck up for me. The cousin was excommunicated, and my father let me know that I was right to tell him, he would always protect me. I was lucky in that way, but I never told him about my grandfather, because I was much younger when those touches happened, too young to understand them, but afraid of what might happen. By the time the later incident with the cousin happened, I couldn't draw a line between the memories.    Not too young to remember, it was never a constant memory. Fortunately, in my case, contact with my grandfather was very limited, and it never occurred again.

When I was 12, my mother accused my father of sexually abusing me, and was quite vitriolic about it, though there had been no discussion of anything between her and me. It was not true, not a shred of truth in it, but my mother was angry with him about something else, and she used this accusation as a club to hit him with.   I was mortified, & could not really understand all that was going on, but my denials fell on deaf ears. She acted as if she was defending me, but it was merely a weapon she could use against my Dad. II was too young at that time to understand that something else in her psyche might have been at play. My Dad was far from perfect, but he was not guilty of this. He moved out of our home and started drinking shortly heavily after this episode, and for 20 years, he was not himself. I rarely saw him through those remaining formative years. He and I never discussed this, but he told me later in life that he was grateful that I had continued to love him and see him as a person.

Sometimes a person who has suffered abuse, sees it everywhere, having never dealt with their own issues. I don't know if that is the case here, but the Brozman I knew never exhibited any sign of questionable behavior. The ex-wife was known to be ....difficult... at times.

We will never know the real truth, and I would like to see the speculation stop. These should have remained private matters, within the family, until the girls whose privacy should be protected were old enough to make their owns choices about a public discussion. What the so-called "concerned parents" involved are doing disgusts me, and I wouldn't trust them for that very reason.   They seem too interested in being the center of attention in all this. They drove a man to kill himself. If their accusations are true...isn't that justice enough? Brozman has gone on to meet his maker, and will face the justice of the soul.   These story tellers...their day of reckoning is still ahead. I hope they have not added murdering a man's spirit to their list of sins.

For me, I will pray for everyone - for their souls, for their forgiveness, for the hatefulness to disappear. Brozman's music is still a gift to the world, and whatever his flaws as a man were - he was generous with his music.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:40 PM

Perhaps we should just start a new thread entitled: "Gene Rosenthal Intends to Talk About Brozman but Can't Get to the Point, and Everybody Else Yells at Him For It."

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:43 PM

"I find myself suspicious of the entire story about Brozman, though I admit, I have avoided any details."
Then perhaps you should get acquainted with the details before weighing in?

"I don't know if that is the case here, but the Brozman I knew never exhibited any sign of questionable behavior."
What kind of behavior do you expect him to have displayed in your company? Rubbernecking at 10 year olds as they passed? Saying "damn, that 12 year old had the body of an 8 year old" in casual conversation?
In the case of MOST pedophiles, people who knew them casually, even their friends, would express amazement and disbelief - "I never suspected, he seemed so normal" - your arguments hold no air. Especially when you yourself admit you are unfamiliar with the details.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene= Adelphi
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:50 PM

5/09/2013

Re: Guest/serious question

Id feel seriously more comfortable, in taking you seriously, if you'd had the common decency to identify yourself as opposed to your guest annonymity(sp)... but since you're the ONLY one to ask a serious question, Ill violate my own rules, one time only:

Your question- Why are you here? Serious question.....

Answer: First of all I've been here off and on for years, generally researching, and/or watching the antics of my FSGW friend/associates like Mick, or Amos, or Ernie, etc.

This round, I thought that I was doing a mitzvah, by posting the Atkinson comments here......my wife & I had done extraordinary research on the issue, because of an announcement from the stage by Lindley at a local performance here at the Jammin' Java, where he announced Brozmans death of the day before, and dedicated a couple of songs to him.....on the way home my wife and I talked about what could cause the death of a 59 year old man,,,,,hmmm probably a massive heart attack.....and we let it drop, a couple of days later rumors began circulating on the web of Brozman's death as a possible suicide......we became very curious, and used all of my research investigative tools to track it/anything down, and after more then a days effort, up came the Santa Cruz.com obit with the attached 8 comments. it took me another day to figure out how o copy the article & comments in a way that would allow reposting.....I then spent another day reposting the Article in multiple parts to two of our local websites- [e-mail] & to www. [e-mail], it wasn't until yet another day had passed that I flashed on posting it to the Mudcat site.........Im sure that youre aware of the Roman/Greek appeal...."Please don't kill me, I'm ONLY the messenger" sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't depending on the nature of the news and the Angst of the receiver of the message.
Suffice it to say, almost immediately upon my post to what we now call the "Obit thread, my post just flat dissapeared.......a while went by, and various others noticed the post deletion as well as other earlier post deletions and ask SRS what's going on, to which she finally admitted that she had deleted/moved the posts to the "new thread" and added a statement to the effect that it was MY (Gene Adelphi's) post which created the problem, and added a few more derogative terms regarding me & the post. Well at least I now knew where it went, but I wasn't very fond of the abusive attitude that was associated with the move, and was NEVER given the chance to plead: (Don't kill me, I'm only the Messenger) Things went rapidly from bad to worse, with most of my posts being deleted, and finally "my euphemism of sunspotds" meaning that I had been totally banned/blocked----when you try to post up on the screen comes the word BONK! How much more do you want to hear? any of my posts that SRS didnt politically agree with were deleted, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this post suddenly disappears too.

Absent a deletion there's now going to be a shitstorm of attacks against me..........if you can lobby these idiots to quit it for awhile, Ill give you the reasons for my would be "serious posts" & I'll post them....absent that you can all go fuck yourselves....

GR

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:51 PM

You people are a bunch of lunatics! I'm glad I read this, there was some stuff posted at Santacruz.com that had me pretty concerned but now it's plain to see this is the invention of a bunch of whack jobs!

Don't you have anything better to do than slander a dead man's name?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:02 PM

Gene wrote:

"it took me another day to figure out how o copy the article & comments in a way that would allow reposting"

Wait...you run a record label? HOW???

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:03 PM

no we don't if you like it here then just leave & also go fuck yourself

GR

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:07 PM

The 'lock up your ukes around the Brozman baritone" comment made my day!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:11 PM

http://psychcentral.com/addquiz.htm

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,gene Adelphi
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:13 PM

With employees idiot!!!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:17 PM

The very idea of sexual abuse of any child is reprehensible, and anyone guilty should be ostracized and punished. Absolutely NO question.

But, I am troubled too at references to second hand stories, and no verifiable details. (Not that I want details, mind you). This all seems like such an example of the best and the worst of what the internet represents.   Respectfully, mudcat, I don't think this is what you mean for your site to do.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:26 PM

I was molested as a child myself - as were about 50%+ of people in my age group if you accept the research. From previous posts I assume I am allowed to comment.

I would have chosen not to had not my friend Janie been dragged into this travety of a thread.
So, first...why not let the legal system prove the case and exact its punishment rather than wildly flinging accusations?

Second, ( for Janie's sake) I was present at the Cheese Incident. Janie was not involved. Jeanie was. She did not take valuable amounts of food but remnants left on the table and thought by all to be headed to the trash.
Gene did not act rationally when searching out the culprit who stole his cheese. He banged on all the doors in the corridor including mine - keep in mind that at 4AM we were asleep. Threats were made. Screams went on for quite a while and Jeanie wisely refused to open the door until Gene calmed down. She then returned his cheese. I believe that both Jeri and Ranger1 can confirm my version of the story.

This is also the Gene who attacked the management at the Getaway and tried to get Mudcat attendees to overthrow the management and put him in charge. Then too we heard about his brilliant career and accomplishments. We repeatedly pointed out that Mudcat has no influence on the FSGW other than as attendees but it never sunk in. This too is in the thread history and can be verified.


I am SINSULL. My name is Mary and if I choose to attend the Getaway and am in any way threatened by you will handle the incident with police intervention. I am not a GUEST nor a liar. Leave Janie alone. She has bigger fish to fry.

SINSULL

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:38 PM

Gene, again you say your're going to tell us something, then you talk a lot but tell us nothing, then you say you are going tell us something in the next post, which of course you don't.
I will never believe anything you say. You are the chicken little of your own small world. You are also a rude person. Please gather your thoughts, take a deep breath and.... Hold It!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,anonymous
Date: 09 May 13 - 07:52 PM

The ex-wife left Santa Cruz in 1989. Who was even around to know or say she was "difficult". And the difficulty must have been great indeed. Why not come out and say what you are implying. From what I know she was always extremely supportive of her husband's career. If you know of anything to the contrary, please share. What people don't know is that Bob erased all evidence of ever having a first wife. So he wouldn't have spread stories about a difficult first wife. Those years of his life were dead and buried. By the way, I'm sorry for your sad story, but you have offered very little in the way of compassion. Ask Haley when she found out about the first wife.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Anti Gene
Date: 09 May 13 - 08:01 PM

Wow, this Gene character has single handedly laid waste to all the concerned and well thought out posts on this issue. Sounds like Captain Queeg (humphrey bogart) demanding to know who ate his strawberry ice cream. What a nut job! I believe the Broz is likely guilty of these crimes. I believe Mr. Atkinson and the ex wife, who's children it seems were molested. Why Mr. Gene has taken over this thread with all that "look at me, I'm GENE" nonsense and foolish threats while never getting to his actual "shocking story" I can't understand at all. I now intensely dislike two people I've never met in person. If he knocked on my door looking for his cheese I'd shove it up his wrinkled arse. Too bad for Sinsull, wish I'd have been there to help.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 13 - 08:54 PM

People are complex. Just because a person is an incredibly gifted guitarist doesn't mean they couldn't also be a sick pedophile. And just because a person owns a record label and had impeccable taste in music doesn't mean they couldn't also be an insufferable egotist. People are complex.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Michael Segui
Date: 09 May 13 - 09:19 PM

For crissakes Gene.
"Shit or get off the pot"

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 09 May 13 - 09:24 PM

I'm now on tour and don't have time to add anything. Obviously things have gotten sidetracked. But it does disappoint me after having repeated it all several times to see some basic things overlooked.

One is that when I say the community of musicians near Bob I don't mean people he has worked with around the world. I mean the people in his area, who have known and played with him longest. In that community, people have talked to the victims and families, included one who hasn't been named. You have my word on this - NONE of this community that I know are in doubt, and I've heard from more and more of them this past week. The fact the rest of world isn't privy to things that at this point are being told in confidence, that's the reason I came on the thread. To this musician who posted - keep going back to those who worked with BB in the 70's in CA. Talk to them.

I repeat, when I hear personally from the families of victims, it is no longer hearsay. If you don't know any of these people, well hey - THERE's the reason you haven't heard any of it. So fine, reserve judgment, I understand. But don't get back into attacking victims. PLEASE don't do that. It's pretty weak to say that people shouldn't speculate about Bob and then start speculating about the victims. I mean, really!

I have said many times that Gary Atkinson and the other families involved are preparing a statement that will explain exactly what action was pending. It's useless for any of us to speculate until this happens. I got into some of that, too, but i think I didn't really know enough. Patience is the only thing that will help, there.

Way too late for this for me, and I'm onstage at noon tomorrow.

Gene, when things quiet down a little, I may gave a call about some of things you refer to for the purpose of comparing notes. But that's unrelated to the subject here.

Peace, one and all,

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,former student
Date: 09 May 13 - 10:12 PM

thanks for all your hard work, Duck.


(I was the guy you tangled with a couple of days ago. Very impressed with your measured and balanced approach).

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 May 13 - 10:24 PM

Gene......I generally stay far removed from these type of threads......I read them with some interest more in the people on the thread than the subject. I know jackshit nothing about the whole Brozman matter.

What I do know and from an observational standpoint is this thread is as dead as Tidwell's goat. Right now all you are accomplishing is "rancor in the ranks." Take the advice from Duck Baker above and let this go here for awhile. Mudcat can provide a forum for discussion or a place to lose previous friends by beating a subject to death. You have wandered far away from the original discussion which happens at the 'Cat but generally it means the subject matter has been beat to death. You do nothing by trying to keep it alive except to cause anger and hurt feelings.

Just sayin'..........


Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Baltimore Bluesman
Date: 09 May 13 - 10:42 PM

I don't have any new facts to report.

Like many of us, I feel like I've been punched in the gut.

The last time I felt like this was when the Unabomer was arrested (I'm a math guy).

I'd like to commend Duck for his courage, integrity, and rationality.

Bob Brozman was a truly great musician.

I would love to learn that this is all a bad dream, but it's not looking likely.

I am reminded of the Honeymooners episode where Ed Norton dresses up for Halloween as his idol, Pierre Francois de la Brioche, the man who designed and constructed the sewers of Paris.

But later, poor Ed finds out that his idol CONDEMNED the sewers of Paris.

I mean no disrespect, I'm just trying to cope with this sad news.

My heart goes out to any victims.

BB

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 09 May 13 - 11:03 PM

Hi, I am a professional musician for all my life. I am a "Signature Artist and professional endorsee of Martin Guitars and National Guitars" for many years. I have seen and kinda known Bob for 30 years. Though I do not know much about the situation, I have to say that I have NEVER met anyone quite like Bob. It was a running joke that someone could be so arrogant, or basically disrespectful, of anyone who could challenge his " position" in the music world. I have been with musicians that are 20,000 seat seller's. They are humble, and appreciative of the gift they were given. From Bob it was always a threat to his ego. No one could be as good, or better than him. I thought he was one strange fellow. But, I am not going to convict him yet of this abuse. It should all be heard out first. But, out of all the professional musicians I have played with over 30 years, he was one of the most odd. I just thought he was very insecure? I truly hope all this abuse is false, but if I was a betting man( which I am), I will take mucho $$ on the abuse factor. If anyone wants to bet, just let me know. Sincerely, Kenny

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 13 - 12:44 AM

Sinsull/ Mary

I don't know what planet you are on or what you were smoking or drinking but your lil cheese incident memoir is part of your big fat holier than thou dramatic fiction.
I was there too. The donated evening snacks for the Getaway are meant to last through 3 nights of non stop music all nighters. When there is selfish thievery it effects more than just a few.

As for the rest of your, out of context, nonsensical comments about yelling at the Getaway management. You are hurtfully lying. I guess you actually were not really awake.
If fantasy and soap opera histrionics is your thing keep it confined to your singing

Sandrolin

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,former student
Date: 10 May 13 - 12:46 AM

I'm sure that Bob was rude or arrogant to lots of people.   He had that side to him.   

But that's not the only side to him.   He would tell all of his students how great a player Debashish Bhattacharya was, specifically saying "compared to him, I'm a beginner."    With the Reunion Islands musicians (specifically Rene Lacaille) he told many a story of how humbling it was to sit in with those guys and to try to pick up on what they were doing.    I saw him sit and jam with lots of great musicians at IGS, and all I saw there was the joy of sharing music.    When you're in a jam like that, you can't be competitive - and that lesson was repeated by example over and over and over on every day of those camps.   When it came time for the student concerts, he (and the other teachers) happily played backing parts for every student who asked, from beginners to pros.


but even if he was an arrogant, insecure jerk....lots of people are arrogant insecure jerks.   For those of you who are saying "I'm sure he did it"...is it just because he was rude or arrogant or disrespectful?

I'm not talking to people who are basing their opinion on talking to the families of the victims, or other first hand experience.   I'm talking to people who don't know any more than what can be read here, but are sure he did it, because he's a big fat jerk.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 May 13 - 02:48 AM

I find it funny that so many have so many passionate opinions about this matter. I feel sorry for the people who believe that this man is good just because he was famous for a moment.. Evil is still evil even if you are famous and this was one evil man!!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 May 13 - 03:03 AM

I hope some of you are deeply ashamed of yourself when it comes out that this person that you defended to no end did horrific things to young children.. that you defended pure evil.. I also hope you feel ashamed that you would defend someone just because they are famous at the expense of victims who have been beyond traumatized by this monster.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 May 13 - 03:59 AM

Duck Baker: "I have said many times that Gary Atkinson and the other families involved are preparing a statement that will explain exactly what action was pending. It's useless for any of us to speculate until this happens."


Thank you for some sensible contributions to this topic.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi
Date: 10 May 13 - 04:39 AM

May 10, 2013

Let there be no mistake about it, I have never had a personal AXE to grind with Bob Brozman, only knew him briefly in the early/mid 70s where I met him at one Nick Perls Friday night (very exclusive) blues parties..the fact that he was there at all, was indicative of his already well developed style, and "Jamming" ettiquet(sp?).
These parties were attended by the likes of Jo-Anne Kelly, Larry Johnson, Roy Bookbinder, Woody Mann, Larry Cohen (of CBS) often called Larry the "Fed", etc usually 10 to 15 musicians...the other times I met him was through Bookbinder or Mann. Period! Theres no question in my mind that he developed into one of the finest guitar players that youd ever have the luck to; also, the ressurection of the National Steel and the serious reinvention and new inventions of National Steel variations we owe, pretty much single handedly to Bob!
A regards these current claims & allegations, until only very recently I kept an open mind, but I must now admit that I'm almost 100% convinced that the allegations are more then likely true based upon the overwhelming belief by his close friends and the very local music fraternity, that were most close to him. BUT, its just my personal opinion, and that's all. My coming here had little to do with Brozman, except tangentially.

I came here to post my very personal experiences regarding musician child abuse, etc. to show by provable example just how so potentially
dangerous it is, to irresponsibly allow Folk Musicians, or ANYONE else for that matter, to be given free, unmonitored, access to your house, particularly if you have young children or beloved pets.

While I still have some energy left as follows:

Michael Stewart, also know as Backwards Sam Firk, Whose Adelphi Record LP release in 1968 was in fact Adelphi's VERY first release: AD 1001 True Blues & Gospel, with much further recordings of Firk for almost 10 years, & with a second LP release a few years later,and a "Memorial" 3 CD release scheduled for next spring. For whatever its worth to any of you, I personlly consider my now deceased "Ex-Brother-in-law" as the Best, "White" country blues musician to ever pick up a guitar,but again that's just MY opinion.
Now the "down side"- Firk married my sister (yuk), and shortly set up
House-keeping in a large country style house in rural Mt. Airy, MD

Within a year or so, they both became aware of a young female child of about 9 years old, this waif started hanging out in th Stewart yard, soon she had wormed her way into both of their hearts and into their house... it turned out that her home situation (next door neighbor, VERY large land parcel) was an abusive one, not abusive to her but decidedly abusive to both parents, who would regularly get drunk, often ended up dukeing it out in furniture destroying drunken rages.

Firk & Carol, kinda/sorta adopted her, Carol (School teacher) took it upon herself

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 May 13 - 05:04 AM

Gene Adelphi: "My coming here had little to do with Brozman, except tangentially.
I came here to post my very personal experiences regarding musician child abuse, etc."

Thank you for clarifying that.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,gene- Adelphi
Date: 10 May 13 - 06:02 AM

May 10, 2013

Oops, accidental, premature post...continuing:

My sister took it upon herself to Home Educate the child....
There came a time, when the child was almost 11 years old, that she asked if she could "sleep over" because of a brawl going on at her house....she also wanted to sleep in the same bed as Firk & Carol....which they decided was ok but with Full "bundling in effect.
For those of you unfamiliar with the term, it's origins appear to be Scandinavian in derivation...basically, its a way in which a male & female can conserve body heat by sleeping next to each other, but with little to no possibility of "accidental intercourse"....the blankets are wrapped in over/under configurations allowing close body heat tranfer sharing, and Only that.

The abov took place very infrequently......

One day my sister came home from school early, went into the bedroom and screamed when she observed the fully naked child in bed with Firk, with him obviously diddlying her, meaning with one or more fingers in her vagina,doing basically what's called Finger Fucking
this poor child.

Carol grabbed the kid, wrapped her in coats, and took her back to her parent's house....they weren't home!

Carol then bolted as fast as she could from Mt. Airy, straight to our folks house and proceeded to then have a ten day (serious) nervous breakdown, with uncontrollable crying and sobbing around the clock!

After a couple of weeks she felt well enough to return to work....another week or so later, word began leaking to me from the local music community suggesting & then verified that Firk had now turned the MT Airy house, every week-end into a three day round the clock, sex/orgy party.....the word also came that he was writing a new Bible. (can you say PCP?)

After hearing this, Carol pulled herself together, immediately hired a "Top Gun" Female Divorce Attorney.

And then the bottom fell out.....in her first meeting with the Attorney, after telling the whole story, she was advised that she had a life changing" decision to immediately make:

"Carol, we can file a divorce complaint without the police report/affidavit, or we can file WITH the report, but I must advise you, that there's a very strong possibility that after filing the police report, you might be immediately arrested as being an accomplis both during and after the fact, because you,ve waited so very long before filing..; further if you're convicted you will never , ever be allowed to teach again...your sex conviction will follow you forever....Carol had NO problem with the decision....she chose to file the report, so as to make sure that he can never again abuse a chid.....more important then my life or career.An indictment was obtained....Firk found out about it, and immediately fled from MD to Boston Mass. He didn't find out till later, that he saved his life by two hours, as the city Elders showed up at his house with "Hot Tar and feathers and intended to hang him by his balls in his own tree on the front lawn! You can't make up shit like this, and anyone who wants to veryify the veracity, Im more the willing to walk you into the MT Airy Courthouse, where the complete records exit till this very day, and probably for at least another 100 years.

There are protective lessons to be learned from this one....learn well my fellow folkies, learn well!

Nobody, but Nobody ever suspected that Firk had these pedafilia fantasys, let alone that he'd ever act them out!

Next we're going to address the John Fahey episodes, which actually, in their own way, are much closer in nature to the "alleged" Brozman allegations....

Continued in the next post, immediately, I hope.

Gene R.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi Records- Gene
Date: 10 May 13 - 06:30 AM

May 10, 2013

Guest CS----

Your Sarcastic comments not withstanding, what is it that makes you feel the need to hide behind Anonimity? Quite frankly, it's generally only cowards that feel that need because there might be consequences....which you are just not willing to present yourself as a real man, or woman? Perhaps Im just deadly wrong, I often am! :-)

I know that i can be scary, but please come out of your closet, you might actually like it.....I for one absolutely promise that I'll do nothing at all to make you feel comprimised, and most every one else here will most certainly treat you gently......

by the way taking things out of context,is really one of the things that almost everyone despise.

But I forgive you my friend, may God bless you & give you the strength to grow under his protection.
I wish that I could help you more, but I've sworn an oath with my God to finish these posts, and I must now return to task.

Again, May God Bless you & keep you...


Sincerely

GR

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Bored to death..
Date: 10 May 13 - 07:13 AM

Can't someone shut this guy's IP and let us come back to the topic ?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi Records- Gene/Peace
Date: 10 May 13 - 07:30 AM

And what exactly is the topic that you have such an urgent need to get back to, sir?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 13 - 07:39 AM

Thank you Gene - that was an intense story. I think most of us would be fascinated to learn more about Magic Sam and Angel Dust and I for sure need to hear every Fahey story you have ASAP! But it's hard to scroll down through this huge thread to find your posts and people posting at you make it longer still. How about starting a new thread to tell us the Magic Sam Zootie Bible story and everything you can remember about weird old Fahey?? Thanks!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Bored to death
Date: 10 May 13 - 07:40 AM

Perhaps one should rename the topic : Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT senile claptrap) xD

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Nathaniel
Date: 10 May 13 - 08:57 PM

Just a simple question for all you: If I was a Bob Brozman fan, having a young daughter, and decided to let Brozman stay at my place the last time he giged in my country (I'm european), what would I think now about mr.Atkinson who knew all these but never said anything?
Another question comes in mind: If I found out that someone did something like that to my kid, would I let him go away like a gentleman? Noone of the victims' fathers attacked once to Brozman after he found it out. You seem very civilised in the US.

I don't know the truth behind this story and I don't defend Brozman with that. If there are victims my sincerely thoughts are with them.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 13 - 10:06 PM

People keep saying that Gary never did anything for 20 years. We don't know that to be true. There was a witness he said but she didn't want to testify. Maybe he tried to bring criminal charges in the UK. Maybe he told every US promoter & friend of Bob's he could find. Maybe Bob sued him for slander. We don't know. I was surprised to see Suzy Thompson mention on another forum that she had been aware of this stuff. How did Gary find Mary? And now this latest victim? He may have done a lot over the past 20 years. Just because Gary didn't murder Bob doesn't mean Bob didn't do these things.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 May 13 - 11:28 PM

Where were Suzy Thompson's comments posted?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 May 13 - 11:30 PM

If you knew child abuse happened, wouldn't your first inclination, at that very moment, be to call the police, to call child protective services? To assault or murder the guy on the spot? Why, all of these years later, would you report it in a folk and blues site? It's absurd.

I don't know what happened, if anything happened, but all of these after-the-fact testimonials are too much to be believed. And my eyes cross any time I see another of Gene-Adelphi's posts. I have no idea what he's going on about, but I don't think he does either. And his enabler's have let him run free - someone should have taken away his computer, turned off the router. Mrs. Adelphi, perhaps? There is real vitriol running through this thread - the fact that so many guests who spewed this stuff didn't assign themselves a name and who chose to stay anonymous. There is no moral high ground in nasty anonymity. NONE. IP addresses show these folks are from California, Nevada, Ontario, Illinois, Louisiana, Philadephia, New York, etc.; welcome to Mudcat. I hope you visit under musical circumstances and contribute more meaningful material to the site.

I think people have every reason to be skeptical about all aspects of this story. If there are pending cases that were truncated by Mr. Brozman's death, then something will still probably turn up in the news. Especially if they make claims against his estate.

SRS

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 13 - 12:41 AM

Maybe he told every US promoter & friend of Bob's he could find.
>>>>>


nope. because then everyone would know about "the rumors",and Bob's twenty years of denials.    But no, it blindsided everyone. Ergo, Gary Atkinson didn't say boo until now.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest--Wading in
Date: 11 May 13 - 12:57 AM

Silly River Sage: Go back to the very first post in this thread. There you'll see that the original posts from Brozman's ex-agent and ex-wife were copied over to Mudcat from the Santa Cruz News forum by a Mr. or Ms Potato Fingers. So, it's not absurd after all. It was initially reported to a news site not a folk and blues site. Since you split the thread, I'm surprised you didn't catch this.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest- WAY back in the day
Date: 11 May 13 - 01:14 AM

I'm not sure at all that it blindsided everyone... It blindsided most, certainly....but not everyone.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 May 13 - 02:28 AM

I'm sure that SRS saw the OP. It remains rumor, innuendo and he-said-she-said, and will probably be nothing else forever.

Mods, I suggest you kill this thread.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Niggardly Bastard
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:51 AM

I'm sure you all get spam from Homespun.
I replied to mine.
I told them to remove Mr. Brozman's DVDs from their catalog. Or remove me from their spamming list.
I suggest everyone else do the same.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:25 AM

I never heard this Brozman dude in my life - couldn't care less about modern white guitar nerds. But I do care about the safety of kids and I remember Sandusky and the church and hundreds of years of rich white folks having their way with our children and not being called to account.

SRS is right to be skeptical but everyone else is righter to look hard and long to find out the truth and protect any other kids.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:39 AM

At the Weenie Campbell site Suzy Thompson (username Cleoma) wrote:

"Cleoma:
RIP Bob, I don't believe he experienced very much peace while alive. A great player and I want to remember that part, although I've known about the other stuff for some time. My sympathies to those who experienced the bad stuff, it is terrible, but I'm glad that the good stuff (i.e. the music) will live on."

Maybe I'm misreading that, though I don't see how.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:54 AM

Guest, 11 May 13, - 07:39 AM posted

Suzy Thompson (username Cleoma) wrote:

"Cleoma:
RIP Bob, I don't believe he experienced very much peace while alive. A great player and I want to remember that part, although I've known about the other stuff for some time. My sympathies to those who experienced the bad stuff, it is terrible, but I'm glad that the good stuff (i.e. the music) will live on."

If that is so, then the obscenity here isn't that Brozman MAY have been a pedophile, it is that individuals like your cited friend knew and did nothing. It's one thing to stay silent if your friend is cheating on his wife with another adult or has a drug habit, it's another thing to suggest that you know beyond a doubt that children are being assaulted AND SAY NOTHING.

What is it about maintaining a connection with this man would let anyone else shrug off such toxic behavior? Did knowing him give all of these people higher stature?

The problem all of those "in the know" present here is not only 1.) the object of the discussion - alleged criminality by Brozman, but 2.) the absolute moral bankruptcy of each of you who suggest that you knew and yet you said nothing. I'm glad to not be in that hot seat, folks. You want to show some kind of special access to this famous/infamous individual by suggesting you were insiders, that you knew of this? If attorneys for the alleged victims read this, does any of you want to get up in court and swear that you knew this and said nothing? You need to examine your motives for making these claims, and be prepared to answer for them or recant them.

And if you don't know any truth of Mr. Brozman's behavior, if you're just beating your chests to join in at lynching a corpse, you're letting mob mentality carry you forward.

SRS

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest -- Wading in
Date: 11 May 13 - 10:58 AM

"If that is so, then the obscenity here isn't that Brozman MAY have been a pedophile, it is that individuals like your cited "Suzy Thompson" knew and did nothing. It's one thing to stay silent if your friend is cheating on his wife with another adult or has a drug habit, it's another thing to suggest that you know beyond a doubt that children are being assaulted AND SAY NOTHING."

SRG: You are jumping to conclusions here and inflaming the situation.
Recall that victims' families have been trying to seek redress for quite some time. I suggest to you that "Cleoma" (aka Suzy Thompson) did not know about the abuse when it was actually happening so was not in a position to SAY ANYTHING. Rather, as a well-connected CA folk musician, she has had "inside" information from either the victims, their families or their friends and has known about THE EFFORTS TO SEEK JUSTICE FOR SOME TIME.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 13 - 11:52 AM

Suzy is not only connected in CA, but in Scotland, so she may have heard this from Gary or his friends.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 May 13 - 12:27 PM

Can one of you who are speculating, bitching, and otherwise jaw-jacking, about this crap help me out here?

What is it that you are trying to do here and how does this discussion meet that need? What is it you're trying to accomplish with these threads?

Seriously. I don't get it.



Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 May 13 - 01:03 PM

What Spaw said.

Peter

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 May 13 - 02:36 PM

Actually,Spaw, at a certain point, editors, journalists, TV producers, and such likes will start following this up, with a view toward creating news stories, articles, and those lurid cable crime shows that everyone claims to hate but watches anyway. There is enough here for somebody to pitch a story.

The non-folkie world doesn't know about this yet...but when they do, they'll likely go bat... crazy, and this thread, crap and all, is where they'll come first. If you don't believe me, Google "Bob Brozman, pedophile". And so it goes....

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 13 - 02:47 PM

victims' families have been trying to seek redress for quite some time.

Sorry, it doesn't hold water. Call 911. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to get redress. I can't imagine any normal parent not being livid at learning of this, and calling in authorities, so this "trying" business suggests blackmail. "We'll tell the cops if you don't pay. . . " kind of stuff.

Enough already.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Mr. Potato Fingers
Date: 11 May 13 - 02:53 PM

When I read the Bob Brozman obit here I chose to submit the Santa Cruz news information. As I have watched the madness evolve here I have questioned if I did the right thing.

I studied with Broz and jammed with him a year and a half ago. I learned a lot from him.
I was pissed that he chose to kill himself because of his over inflated ego. When I discovered the allegations, I felt that this was the one forum that was most widely read.

The fact that Brozman's wife, daughter, and close associates have not denied any of the accusations is confusing.

I respect Duck Baker for his contributions to this wild discussion.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 May 13 - 02:54 PM

just like some victims are afraid or ashamed to come forward, so are people who suspected or knew...there are many reasons...pedophiles do not like being outed..they could retaliate. there could be physical violence..there could be financial entanglement..pedophile could have something to blackmail them with..there could be family or cultural pressure...Canadians could not possibly do something like that..you are making it up...they might not want to be the first to report something but will chime in after others have made it public...they worry about harming the victims further..they worry about being dragged into the criminal system themselves, especially if they have a record..they are threatened...I don't know...we are all weak in various areas. there is great public pressure towards maintaining silence. there is institutional corruption...there is just plain laziness...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene's left nut
Date: 11 May 13 - 02:57 PM

Gene writes: "you do not own ANY Adelphi CDs or LPs-----Folkies are absolutely the worst violaters of the copyright laws.....they swap whole ipods, they download from illegal sites, the burn CDR copies to swap in kind with their friends, etc AD Nauseum........"

Right, right. Which is enough of justification to pull a gun on said folkies, threatening their life because a summer party is playing music that includes Adelphi recordings. You know exactly what I'm talking about Gene (plus at least a dozen people on this site).

I have to agree with most of the respondents here: crawl back under your rock and stop hijacking threads just so you can show off your lunacy.

Sincerely,
Fang's cousin

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:16 PM

SRS-I had thought you were some sort of licensed mental health or social work professional--if that is true, you know very well that the "authorities" that have authority to act in these matters tend to move slowly or not at all. Also, the "authorities" in the UK have little power to investigate someone whose home is in Santa Cruz and who may actually be in, say, the Maldive Islands, or Thailand...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 May 13 - 05:29 PM

I certainly do not believe in false accusations, and would throw the book at anyone who made them..there is a grey area of not really knowing, suspicion but not proof etc. But where there is certainty I am not for protecting anyone's reputation. I am not for preventing scandal for a church or a football team or a birdwatching society. There should be scandal. It acts as a preventative for future cases, it allows society to express outrage and where they stand, it allows other victims to speak up in safety, it allows people who have the curse of pedophilia to seek treatment rather than commit these crimes, it makes everyone more watchful and able to believe victims..it has to go hand in hand with doing all you can to prevent false accusations and setting up environments where abuse is less possible, such as never being alone with a child in most circumstances...the family of the abuser is going to be humiliated and confused if they knew her as an otherwise decent person, but that is part of the price we pay for being in a family or society...I fall on the side of exposure to sunlight, painful as it is. A bit more sunlight in Cleveland might have helped those poor young women...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 13 - 05:48 PM

Stim, my grandfather was a psychiatrist, my mother an MSW who worked for Child Protective Services where I grew up. I was pretty well immersed in the accounts of the work Mom was doing, without knowing any client names. The vocabulary is in the family.

The common sense can be found anywhere. If you dial 911 and say "My child was molested" you ARE going to get response. Physical exams, psychological exams, rape kits if it was very recent. Reports are going to be filed, investigations are going to happen. If names are named, there are any number of ways jurisdictions may choose to approach it, is my guess. But the point is - the call to police or child protective services has to be made. I don't know what was in the heads of the alleged victims and their families, or what they tried to do that yielded so few results. Unless they did nothing. I'm not going to speculate.

SRS

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 13 - 06:25 PM

But it sounds like you haven't been reading the newspapers for the past 30 years SRS. It sounds like you have no idea what just happened in Cleveland either. Do you read the news?

There have been and continue to be massive pedo cover ups everywhere. Please read today's press about Jimmy Savile and the police.

Innocent people must not be wrongly accused and innocent children must be protected. The law has been useless for most abuse victims in both the US and the UK forever - especially when the victims are poor and non-white.

Sunshine is exactly what we need.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 13 - 06:39 PM

Let's not change the subject. It isn't about me, or Cleveland or about you. And it isn't about Savile, despite the old thread that seems to have taught us nothing about moderating difficult topics. This thread needs to wind down. Mary, others, let's let it fade.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:51 PM

Well Maggie, you could start by moving it to BS which it is.

Stim, you tried I admit but then I read all the posts that followed you and I don't see anything going the way of enlightening anyone. There are literally hundreds of these stories and nothing makes this one special. Perhaps if he had been a "Level One" or even two Pop/Rock star but a level 4 folkie type? TV people could care less. The fact is that all the reporting that should have happened didn't somehow. Next case.

Nothing left here but BS which this qualifies for as it has no real purpose musically........Whatever part may once have been musical is now beat to death. I rarely ask for any change in location but since you all want to keep the crap up.....Take it down below huh SRS? ain't nothin' musical left here.

Please?


Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 13 - 08:05 PM

It was there, moving up was requested. It needs to just die, it has been a pain in the ass for a lot of people. If mg and other regulars will restrain from commenting, and if the topic is kept from shifting all over the place, it will close. I think the wind has gone out of the sails of many of the most vocal arguers.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 May 13 - 08:58 PM

Spaw, you know perfectly well that regardless of what others have said, everybody has to have their say, even if it's stupid. That's the Mudcat way. As to the TV people, they regularly make posthumous celebs out of nobodies--lurid crimes make people famous, dead or alive.

Subject: Mea Maxima Culpa
From: GUEST,pitiable one in Louisiana
Date: 11 May 13 - 11:50 PM

SRS, I was letting it fade and you had to call me out by name. That was kind. Hopefully you will never know such suffering. My actions and speach lacked restraint and self-discipline and I would like to apologize to all who were offended by my posts.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:13 AM

SRS - are you like the moderator here? If so, how about reading the comments before coming in with an opinion that ignores basic points that have been gone over many times. Honestly, I feel like all the work I've put into speaking with people and trying to share has been pushed aside by you, and am really wondering what your agenda is, here.

For God's sake, for you or for anyone to say that there's no reason the parent of a victim wouldn't immediately go to the police, IF THE CHILD OR MOTHER OF THE CHILD SAYS NOT TO, WHAT IS A FATHER SUPPOSED TO DO? I don't quite understand what happened in the instance Gary described at the outset, but if the moderator of the thread is going to come on board and basically say that they don't believe the person identifying himself as the father of a victim, I am out of here never to return. What could be the point of us trying to talk seriously in class if those hosting the thread is telling us to ignore what we all know about cases involving serial molesters?

All of you people acting like the presence or absence of anything on record at a courthouse need to get a grip, too. The only conceivable record would be that a complaint had been filed, it would still be only allegations, not proof of anything, you would all still say it meant nothing. So harping on that is just saying that you don't believe anything Atkinson is saying. The purpose being?

As for Suzy, I take it her statement to mean she had heard rumors that things were afoot, which most of us hadn't, but then she is closer to where Bob lived. So first people act like the absence of rumors proves Brozman's innocence, then when someone says they heard rumors, that person is attacked. What is UP with you people?

You want to think everybody is making things up, fine. We're all making it all up. But I'm tired, and can't remember why we all wanted to do that, guess my memory is failing me, here. So is my patience, I'm sorry to say.

Unfortunately, my sense is that the way this all broke has created dissension among the victim families and I don't know if a clearer statement from them is going to get through or not, now. But it's obvious that any such statement will be attacked, so if Gary and/or others, don't come forward to clarify things, who on earth could blame them at this point?

I'm getting pretty fed up, myself, to be honest.

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:44 AM

I may know nothing about this matter other than those statements that have been posted here by those involved. But I don't have any reason to doubt the honesty or integrity of those parties who are accusing this man of crimes against their children. I also think that supposition and speculation - in any direction - by those who ALSO personally know nothing whatsoever about the alleged crimes, is a hinderance to any useful discussion. I hope that those who DO have personal knowledge of these alleged crimes don't get put off by critical remarks being made about them here and that they still have the will to contribute something that may be of benefit to other possible victims. I second the comments being made by Mg.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:23 AM

Mr. Baker,

I believe Mr. Atkinson's original comments were opinions he made in attempt to correct media misinformation as to the reason for Bozman's suicide. I never got the feeling that he wanted to develop and ongoing discussion online in forums.

The kind of forum posts this lurid thread - in particular Gary's irrelevant rambling graphic descriptions, to my mind, has made a case for not coming forward.

Unfortunately, the main thing that was accomplished for me, is that now if I were to listen to your music, which I haven't that much, I would stongly associate it with your redundant posts here. And the same with Adelphi. Which is a shame as neither of you were particularly close to him. It makes no difference to me as a music consumer what your motives were in posting here, the association has been made.

As was pointed out earlier, this thread has been picked up by search engines and others may have the association in the future.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:32 AM

All you bumblefucks have convinced me and shown me the way. At least I understand and empathsize with the parties involved. I know I am absolutely sure that I AM DEFINITELY seeking closure from this horrible SRS person!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Megan L
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:41 AM

Have any of you actually achieved anything here other than letting us all know what righteous people you are to be filled with indignation and to hell with actually getting of your backsides to do anything to help victims of abuse physical sexual or emotional.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 13 - 09:25 AM

I don't think so Megan but they have determined that that "SRS" is a horrible person!


Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 13 - 09:29 AM

Go ahead, beat the dead horse some more.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:16 AM

Go ahead, beat the dead horse some more.

I agree with the sentiment, but that's a poor metaphor.

When you beat a dead horse, you aren't inflicting any additional pain. That isn't the case here.

P.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Sandrolin
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:17 AM

So what is the point of *posting* , (?) anyway?
Where do musicians/ other tangentially music related people get there muse-- motivations for singing and writing?

we know the tough consequences when Bob Dylan made some decisions about evolving and changing where his muse/ inspirations would rain from..

The raw at the edged, open discussion on this page is/ was valuable ... All the motivations for expression, topic twists and forks does not necessarily have to have meaning for all at this very moment. Just as performers will sing songs that don't necessarily simultaneously fall on receptive ears. Sometimes we just have to expect some will need to listen again.

We need to keep this thread here .. just as it is... Many will need or desire to revisit specific talking points for their own personal reasons. ...

Why do you post? Where is your muse?

Sandrolin

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:27 AM

The topic here is whether Brozman is a pedophile. Nothing else. I have pointed out that many of the claims here make no sense or are apparently so far removed from the individual that they are just gossip.

I have no opinion as to whether Mr. Brozman was or wasn't a pedophile. Most of you visited here because someone somewhere else told you about this thread and you came in to let the shit fly. I thought by letting whoever that is from Louisiana have the last word and apology last night might things might taper off. You know my name, and I know about six of the others who have posted here because they are regular Mudcat members. The rest of you are here for a clusterfuck to pile on in a public forum about Mr. Brozman. You speak as if you know something, have information, yet most of you are anonymous. And those of you who aren't, more power to you, but get a grip. If cases go to court regarding his status in the community or about who should receive proceeds or compensation from his estate, then authorities will find this thread and want to speak to all of you.

End of story. Let it drop. Go home. Have a life.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene-- Adelphi
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:56 AM

May 10, 2013

The Fahey episodes:

In early 1964, I began recording John Fahey, in a recording studio which I had built in the basement of my parents house in Silver Spring, Maryland. I should point out at this point, that the house involved here, was that of my Father, a well respected and multiply honored Physician, who had a small functional office in the house, mostly for treating family and close family friends. He also had two large offices off premises....all of you had dads and so you're fully aware of how brittle dad relationships can get, particularly if you're living at home which I was (again) after a several year absense. To say that my Dad/Son relationship was non-existant would be to overstate the case :-) We agreed upon virtually nothing, and my anti war position, brought us to screaming debates at the dinner table, so to suggest to you that access to and use of the studio
was always on the verge of total collapse is an understatement, it was like walking on eggs.

Having established the background, now begins the Fahey episodes:

During those early 1964 sessions, which I was hired by Takoma Records to record, I made it quite plain to John that certain things were "Out of Bounds", in my Dads house, particularly My Dad's Office area, and most importantly, my Dad's (behind Curtains) medications...inviolable, because any tampering or theft by him of my Dad's meds, etc. could cost him his medical license!
He basicly obeyed the rules except for one 30 second incident where I found him transfixed in front of the curtains...."warning sign"!

In late 64 I was once again hired by Takoma to record Skip James, Skippy came with Fahey, Bill Barth, Firk a photographer & one other who I can't remember, Once again I delivered my,by now, memorized "canned wrap" about the forbidden area, the session began, and almost immediately, Barth left, ostensibly to go to the bathroom, after almost 10 minutes of absense, felt the need to check on Barth, and found him up to his elbows in Dad's medications, I searched him removed the medications and threw him out of the house---banned forever!
Later that evening, I accidentally caught John pulling back the curtains, I grabbed his arm and told him, that ONE MORE TIME, he like Barth would be banned forever.
The following day, was the final James Recording session...only four persons present.....everything went Very well until about 7PM, Fahey had disappeared, and had been gone for awhile, I turned the tape recorder on playback, and while everyone listened I went in search of John, I found him behind the curtains, and it was then curtains for him, I serched him and then trew him out, but he now had to wait outside until the session was over, because he was Skippy's ride home.

(To be continued- "Fahey poisons Nick Perls pets")- again be VERY CAREFUL whom you allow as an unmonitored guest to crash at your house no matter how talent a musician)

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:21 AM

wtf?

I guess SRS was wrong on the topic huh? To steal a line from Dylan, y'all ain't goin' nowhere. Gene.....Give it a break or do you have some fascinating tale of someone who picked their nose in your pantry and how that led to making your cat into a coon hound?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:22 AM

SRS, that was not an apology.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:34 AM

I leave all you people who know nothing whatsoever about anything to congratulate one another on each other's balanced approach or whatever. I was trying to do a service, for the reasons I have maintained from the start. I note that not one of you taking issue with me has actually addressed a single thing I have said. If you wanted a serious discussion, I was available because I felt and feel it's important. If that taints your desire to listen to my music, I can live with that. But I certainly don't aim to hang around and be a target for people who refuse to engage the issues.

So, as far getting as life and moving on, you betcha, kids. If you ever see my name on a post on mudcat again, you can take that as evidence that hell has frozen over and the next winter Olympic games will be played there.

Thanks to all who have voiced support here, and goodbye.

Very sincerely,

Duck Baker

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Fang's cousin
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:52 AM

I find it very interesting that our resident lunatic Gene Rosenthal is bringing up his father's practice and his father's access to prescription medications.

According to John Fahey himself (as well as several key individuals who worked at Takoma on Pico), Takoma Records went bust because of poor record keeping AND because of a barter system that was set up between Charlie Mitchell and a certain Silver Spring son of a physician who had access to his father's prescription pads. MItchell and his cohorts and Takoma were only too happy to send boxes of sealed Takoma LPs to the dude in Silver Spring who would then send prescriptions to Santa Monica. Because the $$ return never showed up in hard cash but instead went up people's noses or in their veins, the label's bookkeeping went to hell fast.

I also find it interesting that in 1964, according to Gene's post, he showed concern over his father's medical license and yet eight years later, he was more interested in boxes of Takoma LPs.

It's probably good that all of the "Truth" is coming out -- as it always does in the end.
Glen

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:04 PM

Are we talking amphetamines primarily Glen? Is that what's going on still with our friend here?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:22 PM

LOL

Fang doesnt have a a single cousin, only a sister.....!!!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:32 PM

Earth to Gene:
You don't know everything in the universe. My father and Elizabeth were brother and sister. Which makes me a cousin to Tom. You seem to believe that you are the keeper of all information/facts which is laughable.

That fact that you ignored the truth in my earlier post is very telling.
Oh, and my cousin Tom had lots of other telling stories about you that I will refrain from sharing.
Glen

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:57 PM

The DOWNSIDE of Mudcat Another thread that degenerated into gossip , innuendo and insult !

And 300

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 13 - 01:06 PM

" Another thread that degenerated into gossip, innuendo, and insult!"

Actually, I think that's where it started.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi
Date: 12 May 13 - 01:28 PM

Glen, because it wasnt worthy of a response, particularly since you obviously know litte to nothing about "The Real" Takoma Records History.

However Glen, since you seem bound and determined to make up outrageous lies about me, we can put it all to rest very quickly.

Arguendo, if you are Fangs Cousin, you'd be a pretty old man about now, probably 75 years old more or less, since fang was even older then me, and I'm 70plus now!

But we can put your allegations here to rest very quickly, by bringing up on this site Leland Talbot, Fangs Very close friend until Fangs death, but more importantly The Secretary of Fang's Company Music Research/Piedmont Records, from 1966 until the the late 70s/early 80s....more importantly before that, he worked as the legal secretary for BJ Powell, Fangs Guardian as well as Fang's Personal and Corporate Attorney. Leland was present during the Takoma/Piedmont "merger years and also a close "Fahey friend......

So give us your Real Name, and I"ll contact Leland who will come up here and will no doubt have some great questions for you, and comments for you, OK?

I see no reason why you'd have ANY problem with this right Glen?

G

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 13 - 01:59 PM

So who is it Leland fucked or got fucked by or had picture taken with or of? Was his a another case of pedophilia or maybe just some afternoon sodomy?

Remember folks this thread is supposed to be about that kinda' crap so stay on topic!


Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 13 - 02:07 PM

YAWN

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 May 13 - 02:10 PM

SINSULL - This is also the Gene who attacked the management at the Getaway and tried to get Mudcat attendees to overthrow the management and put him in charge.


Sandrolin As for the rest of your, out of context, nonsensical comments about yelling at the Getaway management. You are hurtfully lying.

I have to defend my friend SINSULL here so I did check out thread history. She did not mention yelling at the Getaway management.

read from the post 11 Oct 4.54am

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Fang's Cousin
Date: 12 May 13 - 02:13 PM

The annihilation of Mike Stewart's character by one Mr. Gene Rosenthal was beyond the pale and libelous. I could not continue to read his rants about Firk and Fahey (and others) without stepping in and pointing out an obvious irony.

That being said, I have no desire to get into a pissing match with you, Gene. I (we) know that's your modus operandi but I really don't have time for your reindeer games.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:03 PM

Yes, Jacqui. I was referring to that thread.
One of the more rational posters on this thread PM'd me and suggested that I not respond to Sandrolin's denial as it would only escalate into more ugly confrontations. Hence my silence. I appreciate your clarification.
SINS, not returning to this thread.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:33 PM

'From: Stilly River Sage
>victims' families have been trying to seek redress for quite some time.

>>Sorry, it doesn't hold water. Call 911

Good grief. SRG, you seem to imagine that the child goes to the parent immediately after whatever happened, and tells them right out. I know one victim of childhood abuse who STILL hasn't told his family, because the knowledge would explode the family unit - and he's in his 40s. When he was younger he knew that the abuser would contradict him and he would not be believed. There are lots of complicating factors.
It often takes years, even decades, before the victim tells the parent. Or sometimes the child tries to tell the parent but doesn't have the vocabulary for it (they may even be too young to speak - two or three years old), or sometimes the parent does not believe the child at first. Often the child is too ashamed or embarrassed, or has been threatened or manipulated by the abuser.
There are all sorts of reasons why the authorities are not immediately contacted, you should surely know this? Have you not heard any reports about the Savile case?!
You say you picked up 'the vocabulary' from your social worker parent, but you don't seem to have picked up much detailed understanding.
I'm sorry, but I'm very angry that you choose to express disbelief towards the victims' claims because they didn't dial 911 the moment anything happened.
That is not how it works.
Please people, use your imaginations or do some research into patterns of abuse and how victims come to deal with them.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:42 PM

I have this friend I know well. His name is Jack Shit. He says most of the fuckwits on this thread don't know him at all. So why would I believe some dudious Helen or Duck or Gene? If they don't know Jack...........................


Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:56 PM

Eh?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest KC
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:17 PM

Nice post Helen. Many of the attitudes exhibited here are exactly the reasons some people don't come forward. If it gets this bad on an internet forum, imagine going through this in the public eye. Like many, I hope this is not true. Not because of Bob Brozman's "legacy". But because I hope there are no victims. Thanks to all the level-headed folks that tried to keep this civil.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi
Date: 12 May 13 - 05:06 PM

Catspaw:

Humor:

This is just a quickie & a final quickie regading you, cause I really dont have the time or inclination to take you down fully in a debate......

However,

As a knowlegeable regular, certainly you are FULLY aware of the "Sea Chanty/shanty whose chorus includes the following: "......get up JACK...John sit down. Right?

Actually, probably not, in fact, you're at this very moment madly scrambling to look up the lyrics..... to find out why yourpost is so humourous to me. Unfortunately you'll have to figure it outyourself or perhaps with some help from your more learned friends! LOL

hint- check all derivations...... :-)

I'm never ever responding to you again on this site, so just try to learn...

GR

PS- Much more important, One time posts follow!

GR

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 05:07 PM

If you are paying attention, you will notice that defenders of the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" are getting trashed JUST as bad as those who claim to know something about Bob's alleged guilt.


Here's the thing: if Bob had lived, all of the supposed evidence against would have been put to the test.   Witnesses to the alleged act would have had to get up on the stand and tell their story.   I am quite sure that this would have been very difficult for them, but presumably they were ready to go through that in the interest of seeing justice done.

But now Brozman is gone, and it looks to me like the venue has been moved to the court of public opinion.      However, the accusers want the best of both worlds: they want the world to believe them without ever going through the difficulty of telling their story.    Sorry, it doesn't work that way.   If you want to make the charge stick, you gotta tell your story and undergo the cross-examination.   Do you think Bob's lawyer would have pulled any punches if this had gone to a court of law?


oh, now I see that due to supposed "dissension among the families" I guess the story is never going to come out.    All I can say is..."how convenient."

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,parent
Date: 12 May 13 - 05:12 PM

Helen's post was excellent.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 12 May 13 - 05:14 PM

Catspaw49, you may call Duck and me 'dubious' (if that's what you meant) but at least we posted under our own names. Duck even gave a means of verifying his identity, and you can do the same with me if you care to. (Although I warn you that my own website is coming down when it expires in 3 or 4 days, as I'm replacing it - before someone comes up with a conspiracy theory...)

And to the last poster - 'how convenient' ?!!! You're implying with that sardonic remark that you don't believe the victims. I hope you're happy with that. They read this thread, by the way.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 06:22 PM

I feel bad for Zoe. I wonder if she is reading this.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 12 May 13 - 06:23 PM

To Guest KC:
' If it gets this bad on an internet forum, imagine going through this in the public eye.' - absolutely!
And that's another reason why a parent might not want to subject a child to police interviews and a court case, even if they know they were abused. The child might be petrified of going public. And I can't blame a parent from wanting to protect them, when it's a case of one person's word against another and the lawyers are going to tear the thing to shreds.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:09 PM

Regular Mudcatters know who each other are - there is no mystery behind Spaw, and we don't need a scorecard to sort ourselves out. It's all of these drive-by opportunists who found a scab they just love to pick at. You show yourselves for outsiders by your lack of knowledge of the site, yet you are welcome to post here because no restrictions are placed on guests at Mudcat as exist on so many other sites.

Don't come in here protesting child abuse on one hand and then protest no one wants to take it to court on the other. People do take it to court all of the time. People are imprisoned for child abuse all of the time. A court of law should decide this, proper charges filed or reports drawn up, not all of your conjecture and innuendo.

This court of public opinion is tediously repetitive, and to quote Benjamin Franklin's Poor Richard, "Fish and visitors smell in three days." Many of you frankly reek.

SRS

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:22 PM

LOL@SRS.....good one. But you ARE right. Reminds me of the fish emulsion I use on the Tuberous Begonias. ..........


Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Rick Turner
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:03 PM

I'm one of the Santa Cruz music crowd...one who knew Bob a bit, took one of his workshops, and yet is not terribly surprised at his death by his own hands. What does surprise and dismay me...other than the allegations which have been backed up in private on our local scene (truly horrifying)...what also causes me much pause it the level of vitriol here as well as the insufferably irrelevant rants from people who seem to have multiple axes to grind. I can understand initial disbelief; none of us wants to have to believe this stuff; but folks who are really close to the center have posted here and at Santa Cruz.com, and they have used their real names, thereby putting their lifes' reputation on the line. Meanwhile, a major majority of those posting here do so behind bullshit handles or as "guests", and a very vocal few waste hours of keyboard time on wholly irrelevant and obscure and incomprehensible rants that say a lot more about the posters than about the central issue here.

To quote my old friends Robert Hunter and Jerry Garcia, "Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you've got nothing new to say."

I, as much as anyone here, would like to know more in the way of real information. The allegations are shocking and are a sobering reminder that we all should be watchful and mindful. Sexual abuse of minors is all too rampant, and it does often take years...decades...to come to the fore.   All you have to do is look at all the abuse cases...hundreds if not thousands...involving priests over the past thirty or more years. Those cases alone should help anyone understand the points of view of victims which start in deep shame and then go to denial...an arc that leads to great psychological pain for a lifetime.

And in the meanwhile, blather about other allegedly abusive musicians (drugs, whatever...) doesn't have much to do with what started this thread.

And yes, the word on the folkie street in Santa Cruz is that there is more to know and there is fire where there has been smoke.

Rick Turner

yeah, real name...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:06 PM

As I understand it, Gene, the reason the moderators names are not known is simply because they don't want to waste their time arguing with malcontents. It is certainly not because they are cowards.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Mudflaps
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:27 PM

Thank you Rick!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Mike Anderson
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:45 PM

Lucky for me I don't give a rat's fart for Bob Brozman's music - in fact I loathe "world music" as the cheesy marketing effort it is and always has been, and never mind the often great chops that get wasted on it - but this THREAD is a great piece of entertainment! I have learned some amazing things I never knew, such as that BB was a millionaire, which I now see as the explanation for the stupid head-up-ass guilty-rich-boy kneejerk politically correct Chomskyesque America-bashing hippie crap one sees him say in some of his videos and which put me off paying much attention to him.

All that aside, there are only a few useful points we can glean from all this back-and-forth; in no particular order:

1) Child molesters are shit and need to die. People who deny that, or who make jokes about it, or who work to defend them need to be publicly flogged with a horsewhip until their skin falls off.

2) NONE of us, with the very probable exceptions of the OP and family members, actually *know* BB was a molester (I would hope, anyway - that's a hint to those of you who *seem* to imply you do, may you rot in Hell for not doing anything about it if so) and we should all exercise some patience regarding any possible justice, such as a successful civil suit against his estate based on legitimate testimony.

3) IF he was guilty, his very existence is one of nature's mistakes and utterly reprehensible, and he should be forgotten by those of us who have the luxury of being able to do so - something his victims are unlikely to have, maybe for the rest of their lives.

Helen Roche, you're awesome. Catspaw - you're a total dickhead, and your posts today at 1:59 and 3:42 prove it. Dick...HEAD.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:49 PM

5/12/2013

To: (Guest) Fang's Cousin....
(TO ALL READING THIS, HE IS NOT FANGS COUSIN!)

Dear Cuz, why am I NOT surprised that you chose to crawl back into your bogus, lying, slimy hole rather then be busted for the overt lier and reputation libeler that you are? WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE!

I called Leland Talbot, which you knew I would......Fangs closest friend for almost 40 years, and asked him if he knew anything about a Fang cousin Glen, to which he replied.....no never! I then asked him if he thought it to be EVEN possible to which he suggested, highly improbable, and then made the following comment: ...if Glen was a cousin, then why wasn't he present at the Memorial, of which people came to from round the country, BUT NOT ANYONE known as Fang's cousin Glen!

Now for those of you that still believe or have the need to believe "Fang's Cuz Glen", I draw your attention to what ANYONE should (have) checked out "factually" before buying into such BS, as much as you may have wanted to believe it:

When anyone posts a seriously questionable/Libelous post, which includes something that alleges "factuality". the very first thing that you MUST do is to check the veracity of the "alleged" fact(s) befor making a fool of yourselves by "posting" on the assumption that the previous poster's facts are correct & legititmate....easiest way---try wikipedia, amongst others.....a quick search of Takoma Records on "Wikipedia" tells the REAL story of the Takoma Records, ownership changes, etc. and MOST IMPORTANTLY makes absolutely no comment whatsoever of the "Alleged", (obviously "Manufactured" by Fang/cuz)------ "Bankruptcy" of Takoma REcords...... BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED, EVER, EVER, GET IT? Absent the alleged" bankruptcy, which never happened, all of you should have descended on the "Bogus Fang Cousin" as opossed to upon me! I CAN TAKE IT, because the truth is immutable, and I don't lie, EVER! But you folks should be ashamed of yourselves, and learn something here, an apology also wouldn't be out of the question, but I seriously dought that any of you are up to it. :-)

By the way the truth is ALWAYS the best policy for a couple of reasons which I discovered relativey early in life......first, its difficult enough to remember the truth, I've been "Mensa Tested at IQ over 185 (not a member), nevertheless Ive discovered that it's (for all intents and purposes) even with a high IQ, impossible to remember your lies! (Sooner or later you get caught in them, sometimes immediateltly, sometimes years later, but you will be caught)

RE: "Pissing match Glen?", you just backed out in the first half round, that's how easy it is to bust serious sociopaths like you..... but you have done one thing, you've allowed me, by example, to show to all of the regulars here, and the "Guest insaniacs", just how easy it is to "bust" Lying GUEST POSTS HERE, when you have the truth on your side!

So, although it's no longer necessary, let me point out the following:

When "Bogus" Fang's cousin posted those horendous allegations against me, apparently there were many amongts you who really wanted to believe them.....

I posted in response "LOL", etc. figuring that ALL or ALMOST all of you would similarly laugh because you too saw the unbelievable outrageousness of his post. MEA CULPA, I seriously overestimated the average IQ here, and/or College level of the members & posters here, Again, Mea Culpa....

So let me give you some inside information that ALL of you should have immediately noted about Bogus Fang's Cousin's post:

Quickly: My Dads script pads were printed from & only useable from his Main, Wash, DC offices, further they contain ONLY that address name & phone number and Dad's Federal DRug ID #.

Any prescription issued by my Dad, to ANY patient for a "controlled substance", in MD or DC would immediately require a call from the pharmacy to the issuing physicians official phone number, BY FEDERAL LAW. With only a few exceptions: prescriptions issued by hospital's "non-renewable" or "prescriptions issued by dentists for only a few tablets", or long term renewable medications, for example, for "terminal Cancer patients, whose illness nature was LONG established!

But what each of you absolutely overlooked in Glen's Bogus Post" was the following:

Although we ALL now know that there was no bankruptcy, etc. consider this: The allegation was "bankruptcy" by selling blank prescriptions & being paid in records, therefore causing a bankruptcy: well lets do some obvious math, lets say I was selling each blank to takoma for $10 apiece, so it would take the sale of 10,000 of such blanks to equal $100,000......now seriously folks, Arguendo how does $100,000 thousand dollars "bankrupt" a "multi million dollar Takoma REcords Operation? Answer of course, NEVER, but it never happened of course......but the simple mathematics of the "blanketing of Los Angeles with 10,000 bogus prescriptions by Charlie Mitchell, is why I was Laughing Out LOuD!!!

Believe me kids, after two or three days of bogus scripts showing up in LA, from one MD physician, the FED net would have sprung immediately on those that tried to cash those scripts in LA!!! LOL
Picture, if you will 10,000 prescriptions from one MD doctor, blanketing LA for controlled substances!!!!LOL, come-on picture it in your mind and start laughing!!!

Please kids, get a grip, don't jump on bandwagons" just because you want them to be true!!! There are consequenses! :-)

For any who need the additional proof, you may feel to contact Leland Talbot, who lives in Rehobeth, DE, reachable at phone # [phone]

This is the last time that Im wasteing my time addressing these slime bags, more will come up with even more outrageous postings, probably even Fang's cuz duchbag under another ID.....use your own brains to figure out he real ones from the bogus ones.....Anyone posting here under a "non identifiable guest post should be highly suspect.. you guys here set it upthis way and you have no-one to blame but yourselves by promulgating what Silly River Sage recently referred to as a "cluster fuck", well I think that's what was said, but if so, and I agree, it's only of YOUR making...Max, Joe, SRS, etc.

Sincerely

GR

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:57 PM

Thanks for posting, Rick.

Gene, get a clue. You're making an ass of yourself.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:59 PM

'Spaw takes pride in being a dickhead, and we all love him for it.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Rick Turner
Date: 12 May 13 - 09:34 PM

One other thing...

I initially accepted the "official" report that Bob had killed himself because of guitar playing prowess-threatening physical issues. Bob had told me in January at the NAMM show that he was having problems and he was pretty upset about it all. In retrospect, I have had to wonder if he was setting up a plausible scenario to be played out at a later date.

None of us are going to know much else until a victim comes forward or BA or MC chooses to relate more here or over at Santa Cruz dot com, and I don't think any of us should hold our breath on that. This whole thing will either slowly open up or hit a dead end.

I hope/wish the allegations are/were not true, but Bob clearly had a hellhound on his trail. The hellhound won, but some innocents clearly lost as well as Bob himself. Our sympathies must be with the survivors who have all this emotion...the last upteen posts here, for instance...to deal with in addition to any damage that may have been inflicted upon them in the past. As I see it, the damage is continuing even after Bob's death, and that just isn't right.

Bob, by the way, was doing fine financially. He had two houses in the Santa Cruz Mountains, one hell of an instrument collection, some very nice vintage automobiles, and he kept a lot of funds abroad where he earned them. What was made in France stayed in France, etc., to a certain degree...that direct from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 09:36 PM

Oops, should have been "GA"...typo...

Rick

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 09:43 PM

i only know gene adelphi rosenthal from this site but i am going to venture that he is biggest dumbass ever with an iq of 185.

i'd keep that info to yourself in the future
john j.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:36 PM

I'm still wondering what the "Santa Cruz musician community" knows that it is not saying.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:08 PM

Why don't you all go the fuck back to SantaCruz.com and find out? And leave Mudcat out of it!

Thank you!

SRS

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Charles Freeborn
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:56 PM

Well said Rick. My real name here too, and I too have a professional reputation at stake.
I too knew BB well enough. I attended a couple of his IGS seminars, a workshop at his house and engaged in a couple of business transactions, which ultimately resulted in termination of our relationship, both personal and professional.
I had no knowledge of deeper problems, however my wife, who is very intuitive, never trusted him. I will leave that at that. I too will wait for more conclusive evidence before making any judgments.
Rick, I look forward to seeing you again at Healdsburg, as well as any of you who want to talk guitar, and only guitar.
-C

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Rick Turner
Date: 13 May 13 - 12:05 AM

SRS, why don't you refrain from swearing so inarticulately on a public folk music forum? Your language is offensive, your attitude all the more so. Rage seems to be simmering barely contained here, and words spoken with such mindless fury rarely communicate anything other than personal pain...yours, not that of the others who have been hurt.

I'm utterly amazed at the depth of ill will here. The lashing out will do nobody any good whatsoever.   

Time for a Kumbaya moment, folks.

I am personally sorry for whatever pain Bob was in and for whatever pain he may have inflicted. At this point all we can do is to hope for the best for those he may have injured...which happens to include his widow, Haley, whom he certainly injured. A bit of compassion tempered by a willingness to accept and hopefully understand that some folks never figure out how to deal with their demons in a healthy way would go a long way.   

And no, I do not condone child molestation one iota. I have four wonderful kids, and I'd have gone ballistic if I thought any of them had been betrayed by an adult. I've done a number of prison gigs...San Quentin, Soledad, Terminal Island, etc...doing PA and recording systems as well as helping Mimi Farina with some Bread and Roses gigs, and I recognize that some folks "in the system" are irretrievably damaged. I'm very glad they're behind bars; may they stay there 'til death.

I also know that there are a lot of folks who are walking among us who should be locked up and that it seems that child molesters manage to stay free for a very long time because of their psychological power over the victims. And sometimes those folks "cheat the hangman", so to speak, as seems to be the case here with Bob. He had a massive ego. I don't think that ego would drive him to suicide just because of a diminuation in his chops. At 70% he still would have had more chops than just about anyone. What he did with the chops is another matter.

As for what is being said here in the SC community; I'll just say that what I've heard is from folks very much in touch with those at the center of this whole thing. If they want to state what they've heard from the sources, fine, but right now seems to be a time to leave some folks in privacy.

Rick Turner

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 12:34 AM

This is the most absurd thread that I've ever seen evolve here at Mudcat; it's an out of control juggernaut with members and moderators held hostage by the odd rabble coming through from Santa Cruz to express their opinions and outrage about - what? Gossip. There are no facts, there are no charges filed, there is just speculation. This spinoff occurred based upon my observation that there were some real nutcases coming in here to express their moral indignation about something that was not supported by any legal actions and would mess up how our "above the line" threads are managed.

There is no intent here to dismiss, but there is also no desire to lynch. We don't know what Brozman did or didn't do. It has been a job keeping this mess confined to one thread on this site, hoping all of you will finally get tired of this nonsense and go back to your own home forums to discuss it there - and you're worried because someone swears at you? Really? This is The Man Who Came To Dinner, on steroids. Most of you are Guests who are behaving badly. Think about it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Rick Turner
Date: 13 May 13 - 01:22 AM

For better or worse, very little of what's been posted here has come from Santa Cruz...

The thing that ignited this firestorm originated in the UK. And we've heard from close to the source from Oregon, and a lot from Duck who attempted to bring some balance.   

We here in Santa Cruz are stunned, to say the least, and not pleasantly so, to put it mildly. One of our own neighbors is gone by his own hand, and we'd like to know why. Credible folks have come forth with a credible explanation, and like it or not, it is "news". Whether more details will come forth, I do not know. I understand that there were at least a couple of suicide notes. I don't know if the contents will ever be made public. I do know that Bob leaves a lot of pain and anguish in his wake. My heart goes out to his family, past and present.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 13 - 02:41 AM

SRS said:
"go back to your own home forums and discuss it there"

This begs the question: Where IS the Mudcat home forum?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene Adelphi
Date: 13 May 13 - 02:54 AM

5/13/2013

SRS:

Timing is often everything.... I was just wrapping up my next to the last post here, forever for the most part, with the exception of a short one to you about this very subject, when out of the blue came your post, much of which I agree with you, but only in kind sorta.....I, am, however, much happier responding to you directly, rather then a day later unilateral post into the blue...

Please show that you can, even under the most severe duress, still be even handed, by letting this post, post.....

From the heart as follows:

I believe, although I don't want to, that when you decided to split the threads that somewhere in you, you really thought that it was the right thing to do for the site and the members (although I also believe that you were swayed by some sort of serious moral imperative that you were doing God's will as well, nothing wrong with that!

However, after reading your post on the OBIT thread, posted by you on May 6, 2013, 11:58 AM, which hurt me severely REALLY, I began to have my doubts... because in no way shape or form did I deserve to be your "scapegoat", I merely posted an informational post to an Obit Thread on the mudcat site brozman thread, as an identifiable member, cookies or no, and I now quote from your stinging Obit thread post regarding me:

"Okay, I did it. Last night I read the Gene-Adelphi post and realized he and others were not going to let a music obit, stay a music obit, they are going to dig and post whatever they could find. So I split the remarks- now "HE" (emphasis added) and others can "speculate" and post in the other thread.

I have no understanding at all, why you chose me to flame, possibbly because of earlier posts which I had no knowlege of, didn't read, or maybe I was just "easy pickings", I don't know..... but I do know this from years of web protocol:

1. The person with the first seriously substantial post on a new thread, "is" in fact considered to be the initiator of the thread, and pursuant to that go some considerations, mainly the right to steer the thread along the lines of his initial post/ideaism thread

2. That no-one else can claim steering rights, topic rights without the originator's kinda/sorta permission, unless someone wanted to initiate a "flaming" war over it, which is exactly what happened, and I'm most embarrassed to say that you were the instigating" person.

3. You didn't like the direction that things were going in, so you began to arbitrarily delete ANY posts that you found not supportive of YOUR ideaism, you even went so far as to delete MY initiating post, obviously every time you did those things you not only pissed off me and other bonifide posters, but you egged on the insaniac guests to follow your lead...and thus the "clusterfuck" which you so aptly identified, except that you are/were the major supporter and instigator of same (perhaps unknowingly)......nothing pesonal here, merely an observation, from which we might figure a way out of, other then more radical moves such as bumping it all over to BS, Seriously SRS,DO NOT DO THAT!! PULEEZE!!

Is it possible that we can sorta codify it, remove the crap and put a wrap on it when it calms a bit? Seriously!?

Sincerely & respectfully submitted
Gene Rosenthal, Pres.
Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc.

PS- I sincerely hope that your comment wasnt referring to me as "..the man...", I've really had enough unnecessary scapegoatism, for a lifetime.

GR

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Interested 4th Party
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:07 AM

OK… seeing that there are several people here who think they are being "cool" by ranting obscenities or using a thread to promote themselves…
To the vulgar ones: your emotional immaturity and stunted spiritual evolution shows through your use of obscene language and lack of anything interesting to say. Intelligent, educated people simply feel nothing for you.
To the self-promoters, HEY, PEOPLE, do what I do. Read first the name of who posted and precede if and only if you know it's someone who has something valid to say. I skip certain posts completely the second I see who they are. I won't even name certain posters that I'm talking about, that's giving them the attention that they didn't get from their mothers as children, and I simply don't think this is the place to do that. AND PLUS, it makes them soooo angry to be (sniff sniff) simply ignored. But it's the way to get them the most. SIMPLY IGNORE THEM, you take every single bit of their energy away.
PLEASE, IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT PEDOPHILES, read this first:
http://www.abusewatch.net/pedophiles.pdf
Rather than just assuming you were born an expert, or after talking or reading about pedophilia a couple of times you formed your expert opinion on it in ten seconds, or even that you "get anything AT ALL" about what has happened here, take the time and read some statistics. That way, Duck Baker won't have to explain 100,000 times why MAYBE his victims didn't come forward before.
I don't get how people can enjoy watching any man fall, even if the man had an ego. I don't understand why people don't understand what a mental disorder is. Sick people need to be treated so they don't produce victims. The victims need to be healed and protected in the future. That is why this is important. The truth needs to come out. Everything else here is a waste.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 08:17 AM

Rational voices have spoken throughout this thread to tell you that there is nothing to see here. No truths are revealed about the life and death of Mr. Brozman.

Come back to Mudcat when you have something about your music to discuss. When you want to share your musical inspiration. That is where we have much in common. Not on the current contentious topic.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:55 AM

Where did the most recent posts go?

This forum seems to have a very dark and authoritarian feel to it. Some very disturbed people.

Thank you Rick and Duck and Helen and the rest of the people who care. Let's all focus on the victims and protecting our kids.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:59 AM

Strange that some level headed posts are now being deleted, while the rankings of lunatics, deniers and general a-holes are allowed to remain.

If this is a folk music forum it's apparently run by the same types of Stalinist reactionaries who tried to pull the plug on Dylan at Newport.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 13 - 10:25 AM

...rantings of lunatics...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 May 13 - 10:36 AM

All you posters who want to stop this thread or remove posts to protect the legacy of Bob Brozman should remember one thing. Bob was a vehement proponent of free speech and used forums like this, quite regularly, as a soap box for whatever topic peeked his interest. Bob was not one to pull punches, in private or public. This much is very well documented. I have no opinion on whether Bob is guilty of the things he is accused. However, his accusers have identified themselves and gone public with their claims. I for one, am interested in how this story evolves because Bob was a giant in our very small community. If the heat is too hot, get out of the kitchen. Shutting down or editing the thread will only move the dialogue to another thread or another forum. Either there's meat on the bone, or this story will die down. All the complaining just ramps up the rhetoric.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 11:02 AM

Personal attacks are never considered a suitable post here at mudcat.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,old folkie disgusted
Date: 13 May 13 - 11:17 AM

"Personal attacks are never considered a suitable post here at mudcat. "

uhhh...........okay sister......whatever you say.......

Thank goodness for the brave people identifying themselves and speaking out!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 11:36 AM

Do you see the names that appear in the "From" line - that shows they are here as a logged on member. And though we have our share of malcontents, the rules are generally understood by most of our members.

We have a newcomer's guide with the general rules of the road. Here is an excerpt:

---

Editorial Policy

We occasionally get requests for information about what we delete and why we delete it. Most of the principles we follow are stated above, but let me try to state it more succinctly:

The Mudcat Cafe reserves the right to edit, move, combine, rename, or delete all threads and messages posted in the Forum. We will try our best to edit sparingly, but there are times when we may have to take some action to keep the peace, or to protect the interests of our community. Editorial decisions are made by Max, or under his direction. We follow principles and common sense, and see no need to have everything spelled out in some sort of pseudo-legal code. We don't allow hate, racism, stalking or other intimidation, or personal threats or attacks. We don't cater to chain letters or non-music advertising, and we expect people to use moderation when they advertise music-related things. We allow just about all sorts of discussion, but we draw the line when it's clear that an individual is flooding Mudcat with information - things like multiple "copycat" or interrelated threads, lengthy copy-paste messages of non-music articles from publications and Internet sources (one screen full of text is the limit - and remember that we encourage you to post the entire text of music-related information). If you regularly start more than one thread a day, you are quite probably starting too many. Please try to post to existing threads as much as possible, rather than splitting topics into a number of threads. I suppose there are a few other things we take action against, but I think this is a pretty good summary.
When we encounter individuals who cause us continual problems, we may take action to temporarily or permanently bar them from posting at all, but this rarely happens. Most of these are people who post just because they like to cause trouble. They may become very self-righteous in defending their right to "free speech," but it's usually quite clear what they're up to. On the Internet, they're called "trolls." We deal with them as we see fit.

Dealing With Flamers and Trolls

Here are some definitions from Netlingo.com:

• flame
  To send nasty or insulting messages, usually in response to someone's having broken the rules of netiquette.
• flame bait
  An intentionally inflammatory posting in a newsgroup or discussion group designed to elicit a strong reaction thereby creating a flame war.
• flame war
  When an online discussion degenerates into a series of personal attacks against the debators, rather than discussion of their positions. A heated exchange.

"Troll" is a bit more subtle, and I had a harder time finding it. Here's what I found in the Jargon Dictionary:

troll    v.,n.      1. [From the Usenet group    alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and    experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT. 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll." 3. [Berkeley] Computer lab monitor. A popular campus job for CS students. Duties include helping newbies and ensuring that lab policies are followed. Probably so-called because it involves lurking in dark cavelike corners.

Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See    also Troll-O-Meter.

This thread is not a debate about how we moderate here at Mudcat. This is about Brozman.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: RichM
Date: 13 May 13 - 01:09 PM

This topic should be below the line. It's not about music.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,former mudcatter
Date: 13 May 13 - 01:49 PM

It's so good that Rick and Duck took the time to share with us. Lets get some sunlight on this sickness and some healing vibes for those with darkness and control in their hearts. Peace to everyone here.

Subject: ADD: Folk Nazis (Dave Hitt)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 May 13 - 02:34 PM

Folk Nazis by Dave Hitt

(Performed as a talking blues song.)


FOLK NAZIS
(Dave Hitt)

It was an unfamiliar city that I wandered through that night
The sleet was falling quickly they had canceled all the flights
So I turned up my sheepskin collar against the icy wind that blew
And went in search of entertainment down the neon avenue

The sign outside said "Coffee House Live entertainment, Folk"
It didn't look expensive and I was nearly broke
I had spent many evenings in spots like this before
And I never saw the weathered sign nailed above the door

It said "Folk Nazis"

I went inside. The place was packed with faded torn blue jeans
All worn by folks who'd overdosed on tofu and soybeans
Their eyes were dull, their hair was long, they sat there nonchalant
As if it were the sixties, or somewhere in Vermont.

It was open mike, the stage was free for anyone inspired
Talent was appreciated, but it was not required
I got myself a cup of coffee and found myself a seat
Then noticed that the place mats were labeled "The Rule Sheet

For Folk Nazis"

The rules said "Arlo Guthrie and Bob Dylan are OK
But no more Joni Mitchel, we've decided she's passé
Poets are allowed" it said, "If they're not too eclectic
And death to those musicians who dare to play electric

At Folk Nazis"

They called the first musician. A young man came up alone
And strapped around his neck he wore a golden saxophone
He played a long cool soulful note, but before his next breath
A band of folkies stormed the stage and stomped the boy to death

A man got up and sang some songs he said were his creation
When he noticed several people were engaged in conversation
He demanded their attention and when they did not comply
He pulled out a tiny pistol and shot each one between the eyes

The next few acts obeyed the rules, played acoustic and told stories
One guy did a sing along, which of course was mandatory
One man told some tales of his travels near and far
And forty seven other people all sang and played guitar

At Folk Nazis

They called the next musician and she started to perspire
The reason for her fear was clear - she had an amplifier
And I could tell from her flushed face her heart was beating faster
As with trepidation she picked up her Fender Stratocaster

I shared the sense of panic that I saw within her eyes
I quickly left, I did not wish to witness her demise
The rain was freezing on my neck, so I turned my collar higher
And behind me, in the distance, I heard submachine gun fire

At Folk Nazis

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 02:59 PM

Few of you have put anything politely here, but this thread isn't about me or moderation at Mudcat. You came here to wring your hands over the downfall of Bob Brozman. You know that attack posts will be deleted, though a large number of them have been left in place.

The thread has remained open in order for the conversation to wind itself down. Are you all finished discussing this topic?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:05 PM

You're not talking about Brozman, you're trying to argue with me. You're trolling.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:09 PM

SRS - You are not moderating. You are editing content you don't approve of.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:17 PM

I have repeatedly warned all of you that anyone investigating the case will look to a thread like this and ask why these people offering up their personal insight didn't report what they know. Is that what you consider your warning?

If the discussion of Bob Brozman's legal problems is finished then it's time to close this thread. Any objections? If you want to talk about Brozman, then talk about Brozman.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:28 PM

Yes we object. Please stop deleting every post.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,sad to see
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:35 PM

The thread has become very confusing with so many posts deleted after the fact and so much aggression.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and remember this is about determining the truth, protecting children and healing. Not about us or our egos. Love to all those affected and those hurt.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:39 PM

Then talk. About Brozman. And I should warn all of you newcomers about the gremlin in the works. There haven't been that many posts deleted. If you write a post in the form and don't save a copy, sometimes the form doesn't go through, it loses your message. The test is to look at the forum home page where your thread should appear at the top. If it's back where you started then it didn't go through. That is not moderators deleting your posts, that is your post getting lost in a glitch that we who are regulars have figured out how to deal with.

Write what you're going to write, select it, then do "control C" to keep a copy. When you hit "submit message," follow through to see if it actually posted.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest - Follow Your Own Rules
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:44 PM

Stilly River Sage - You are a Moderator here, correct? Why is that you continue to encourage the flamers around here? You posted some of the rules before, but curiously omitted this:

Dealing With Flamers and Trolls:
I have to say that I have become a bit cynical about people who make a big show of leaving the Mudcat because of flamers - many of these people might warrant the title of "trolls." The people who attract flamers are often quite obnoxious themselves, especially those who leave with a long farewell message that usually generates a hundred "don't go" responses or more. I am concerned about those who quietly slip away, or those who never even start to participate because of the nastiness. Those who make a show of making martyrs of themselves are every bit as bad as the flamers, I think. They prey on the sympathy of good people.

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times more: the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them.
There is another problem that occasionally arises here - people who are threatening in their behavior. It is of utmost importance that you do not try to deal with these people. If you ignore them totally and inform Joe Offer or Big Mick about them quietly with a personal message or e-mail, we can quietly make them disappear (to an extent).

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: kendall
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:24 PM

I've been a mudcat for about 12 years now, and I've seen it go from a great site with many nice people into this quagmire of trolls, nut cases and trouble makers. So many good people have been driven away by the nastiness, it's sad, and I sometimes wonder how much longer I can take it before I pack my ditty bag and go ashore.
Now, if anyone has a nasty comment just remember, it will be MY decision, not yours.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,grateful visitor
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:41 PM

It does seem that there is an awful lot of acrimony among you all and a lot of interpersonal and other "issues". The open forum is great though and people should be glad there is a good source for information on this sad story. Those of us who aren't around here as often as we might like thank you for encouraging this conversation and hope you guys can work it out despite the obvious drama and politics.

And thanks to everyone brave enough to go on the record. It DOES matter just to let vulnerable children know someone cares.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: sugarinthegourd
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:49 PM

kendall wrote:
"I've been a mudcat for about 12 years now, and I've seen it go from a great site with many nice people into this quagmire of trolls, nut cases and trouble makers."

I've never been a regular here, but have used it as a reference source for many years and lurked on the forums from time to time. I would agree strongly, this is not the site it once was -- and hasn't been for some time.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:52 PM

"And thanks to everyone brave enough to go on the record. It DOES matter just to let vulnerable children know someone cares."

^^
this

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:19 PM

Not only is this thread going nowhere but the only focus it now seems to have is against the way Mudcat operates. Why not take your discussion, such as it is, and go back to wherever you normally gather?

Oh, so they won't allow this crap.......is that it? Or have you been tossed from them previously? This thread is out of hand and attacking a moderator at most sites would get you booted immediately. SRS has been more than patient and given plenty of time to get your points across. Nothing new has been posted and the contentiousness and lack of respect is all that is currently happening.

You all are very lucky to have gone this far. I've been here about 15 years and it has been a very long time since this much Guest anonymity has been tolerated. Go back home and bullshit each other and bitch about Mudcat there. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

I'm with Art Brooks. Close it Maggie.


Spaw

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:23 PM

This is my first post here. Advocates for children will tell you that fear of reprisals is one of the main reasons victims and adult witness to exploitation do not come forward. This site is providing a very important service by encouraging open conversation among people who may be afraid.

For anyone reading this who is afraid of being tracked or threatened online - here is a primer on protecting your privacy and security while discussing important topics like this: https://securityinabox.org/en

Good work Mudcat!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Rick Turner
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:50 PM

And handles like "spaw" or "Stilly River Sage" are not anonymous?

They are ridiculous...I'll grant you all that.

Drop the handles and all come out into the open. I'll bet the conversation would be much more civil and informative if those were the rules...

Rick Turner

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: pdq
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:01 PM

This is probably the wrong place to ask, but this thread is already dead.

Are you the same Rick Turner who did some acoustic guitar on one of the last Ian and Sylvia records for Vanguard?

I assume you are the favored guitar technician of Jerry Garcia and others.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:05 PM

That is the Rick Turner of Alembic, the Wall of Sound, etc, etc. One of a number of well known and well respected people who have testified in this thread.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: pdq
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:12 PM

I know that.

It was the Ian and Sylvia question I was interested in.

BTW, Duck Baker also looks like a wise and respectable man, as does Rick Turner.

Gene R.... not so good.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Rick Turner
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:20 PM

Among luthier forums, the most informative are those which require that people post using their real names. Next down the list are those forums where some do and some don't...with the credible tilt going to those folks who don't hide behind false names or cute nicknames. In my experience, the worst flamers and trolls are those who hide their identity behind handles.

How about "Don't say anything you wouldn't want attributed directly to you."   And I'd include moderators in that as well. Stand and be counted or stay silent.

Personally, I think the use of handles is incredibly immature. Yeah, and I got the secret decoder ring in MY box of Wheaties, and you didn't...neener, neener, neener...

The inner sanctum can be a mighty boring place. I've seen "folkier than thou" attitudes ruin scenes for a good 50 years now, and I hope this is not the same old, same old syndrome here...

And, SRS, I'd suggest moderation should be applied with...moderation...and not foul language...particularly in a discussion as loaded as this one is and has been. Your job is to be above the fray, not in the depths of it.

Obviously this whole Brozman thing has polarized a community that has not had this serious a situation arise before quite like this has. It calls out for restraint at the same time that it calls out for the truth to be revealed. Descending into a vituperous pit yields nothing but more poison.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:22 PM

Internet 101

Back in the early days of the Internet, kiddos, monikers became a way to participate in forums without people being able to read too much personal information into your identity. It was particularly useful for women who didn't want to be intimidated by the predominant male population of many sites.

Every so often someone here at Mudcat tries switching over to their "real name," but usually ends up switching back to the moniker because no one knows who they are if they don't use the moniker. If you, anonymous Guests, weren't just trolling through the site, you'd know that if you have nearly 31,000 posts (me) or 29,000 posts (Spaw) or 7,500 posts (Art), or 24,000 (Kendall) then, as I said before, you don't need a roadmap. If you lot who dropped in for this one knife fight can't tell us apart, that is your problem. We have our own trolls, but at least we know who they are and what to expect from them. Since you object to this site so much, please do what my fellow Mudcatters have suggested, and go back to your own forums.

SRS

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:25 PM

The last guy is Mudcat's problem - can't blame him on the interwebs.....

But why not leave the Ian and Sylvia stuff for an email to him or a reddit AMA? A lot of people are trying to shut this thread up but it's here for a purpose. It might be a bit of a shock to the usual flow of talk here - but it's definitely more important than your average topic. Ballad lyrics from 400 years ago will still be here tomorrow - but the will and courage to report or investigate a future crime against children may be lost if people are scared away from open discussions like this now.

This is really a pretty important topic for a forum like Mudcat. Regardless of the truth about Brozman (though I trust that is coming out) there is no doubt that the whole historical era of the normalization of pedophilia took place at the height of the 'folk' movement and subsequent years. So it seems pretty certain that more than a few regulars here would have personal experience of this topic either as victims or perpetrators. Please let this thread serve a usual purpose in educating people instead of something circus-like.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:47 PM

As requested, I will not discuss the issue at hand..but I wanted to say that we made a lullaby cd for the specific purpose of getting to traumatized children...it has already gone to a number of girls who have been abused we well as Hurricane Sandy survivors, refugee children etc. ..it can be copied further and distributed..and can be downloaded, again for this purpose...just pm me. mg

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:59 PM

mg, that request was made hoping that the rest of them would let it go. As in stop posting altogether and stop it going back up to the top. I didn't mean you couldn't talk about it, you're a rational voice here. I'd suggest wait a little then revive the lullaby thread.

SRS

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:51 PM

Insulting Spaw here is kinda like walking into the Clampett's house and insulting Granny - who Spaw greatly resembles. Keep in mind that Spaw is grumpy because he has one body part that can only be seen with an electron microscope - and another bodily orifice that could swallow North Dakota { which it greatly resembles }. Currently he is working on a project for the government that we hope will turn his gaseous emissions into a renewable energy source. Whether this will be considered "green" energy is still being debated.   

I've known him - and his real name - for close to 15 years. He's a fine example of a citizen that I'm proud to know. He's a little like Mother Teresa, Jr Samples and Donald Trump all rolled into one.

Now that I've filled you in let's all get back to trashing each other - and please - let's continue to let nameless "guests" dominate the conversation.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Fang's cousin
Date: 13 May 13 - 11:13 PM

Can we get a lullaby CD for Gene Rosenthal? I know he's not a child, in terms of age, but maybe something that can help bring him back down to earth? :>

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Limbaugh alert
Date: 13 May 13 - 11:37 PM

"normalization of pedophilia"


having not heard this before, I had to google the phrase to see where it came from.


gosh, what a surprise. Rush Limbaugh.

Let me see if I can deconstruct it:   the left "normalized" pedophilia during the free-love sixties because they are all secretly pedophiles.   It's going to be their next invasion in the culture war, right after they've jammed gay marriage down our throats...er, so to speak.

Did I miss anything?


Just what this incredibly poisonous discussion needs.   the forced injection of right-wing talking points.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Rick Turner
Date: 13 May 13 - 11:47 PM

Yes, I'm the Rick Turner who played with Ian and Sylvia in 1965 (along with my murdered friend, Felix Pappalardi...another story...), toured all over the US and Canada and recorded a couple of albums with them..."Play One More" and "Live at Newport". And yes, I'm the guy who co-founded Alembic, who has built PA systems, guitars, ukes, and basses for a lot of folks, and continues to do so to this day. Some of you probably know a lot of my client list, and so I put my name here understanding the risks...but I also wouldn't think of posting anonymously here or anywhere else. I think it's cowardly and a cop-out. It also greatly diminishes the validity of a post whether it be about a "fact" or be merely opinion.   

And yes, I'm a part of the Santa Cruz music scene, both acoustic and electric. And yes, I knew Bob as a pretty decent (word used advisedly...) acquaintance and as someone who took one of his uke workshops and had dinner at his house with him and Haley. And yes, I'm at least as shocked as many here and would like to know more about what happened. And yes, I've talked to close friends here who are one degree closer to this whole debacle than I am myself, and they confirm that the allegations are most likely true and accurate...and I only say "most likely" out of restraint. I would like all of this to be a big mistake, but there are a lot of things I'd like that just aren't going to happen. And if Bob were alive to this day, it would be "he said, she said"...don't forget that OJ managed to get away with it on the one hand, yet Jimmy Saville seems to have been soundly convicted in the court of public opinion. What is the standard of proof when the defendant is dead?   

Does the pope want to believe that he's got a whole army of buggery addicted priests? No... But...he does...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,no limbaugh no hate no agenda beyond
Date: 14 May 13 - 12:13 AM

No Limbaugh from me my friend - farthest thing from it. Just someone who remembers when a lot of bad things were justified by a lot of good people in the name of ideals taken to extremes. If you weren't there read up - some of you lived it as adults - some of us grew up in it. But no one is advocating historical witch hunts. Just willingness to protect children today - and that generally means education, open discussion of reality, and vigilance against cover-ups by the powerful.

Thanks for keeping this thread open and thanks to the sensible posters.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 13 - 12:46 AM

I am not among your in-crowd here. I see handles, and frankly, I don't know who you are, nor do I care to go digging to find out who the more offensive people are behind the pseudonyms. I see words spoken to me and to others here that I simply would not say to anyone I did not know or around people I do not know. I can be as salty in speech as the next guy, but I try to keep a civil tongue in my head and not to use the f-bomb among strangers. I certainly do not tell anyone to "go the fuck back to their home town", as you, SRS, told me to do.

I am disgusted to see what I believe is some of the worst Internet forum moderation going on here that I've ever seen. SRS, you are using language that would get you banned from any of the other music or lutherie forums on which I spend time. You are clearly too emotionally wrapped up in this thread to maintain civil discourse. I would suggest that you seriously consider ceding your post to a more level headed person or to someone who doesn't have what appears to be "skin in the game".

I dare say that I am many miles closer to the epicenter of this whole situation than 95% of the other folks posting here, and I dare say that I am also probably a lot closer in terms of who heard what from whom locally and closely connected to the source than 90% of you. I know that NONE of us want to believe any of this, and that goes for those whose hearts are mostly with the apparent victims as well as those whose admiration for Bob's musical ability makes it hard to believe that anything like this could be remotely possible. I know Gary Atkinson, Mary Christine, and Duck only by reputation; Lindley I know pretty well, and to a lesser degree but still personally, Suzy Thompson. I consider them all to be reputable sources of information as well as those I know here in Santa Cruz. So I think that the smoke has indicated fire.

And this is the last you'll read of me here unless and until more solid information comes forth. Time for me to get back to building some guitars and working out some of those chord melody parts on tenor uke for my band, "Uke Ellington"...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 May 13 - 01:55 AM

Promise?

Attacking me doesn't excuse all of your bad behavior. Any of you. It may feel good to strike out, but you're a bunch of boors.

I know Gary Atkinson, Mary Christine, and Duck only by reputation; Lindley I know pretty well, and to a lesser degree but still personally, Suzy Thompson. I consider them all to be reputable sources of information as well as those I know here in Santa Cruz. So I think that the smoke has indicated fire.

Then why are all of you harassing the mudcat crowd? Go aid the victims you are sure are out there.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stefan Wirz
Date: 14 May 13 - 06:43 AM

... as a father of two daughters and a grandfather to a bunch of grandchildren I thank Duck Baker, Helen Roche, Rick Turner and a few others for their sensible and caring contributions to this most delicate topic ...
... as a Mudcat member since 1999 (and one who never did hide behind any pseudonym) I have to state that in all those nearly 15 years I never noticed any threat "moderated" that poorly than this one - I admit that the issue (and some of the participants) obviously is/are most difficult to handle ...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: kendall
Date: 14 May 13 - 06:48 AM

Sigh

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 14 May 13 - 09:57 AM

This has been sitting out there for a week now:

http://photos.santacruzsentinel.com/2013/03/13/editorial-cartoons-steven-decinzo/#3

That's THE LOCAL PAPER, which, as far as I can tell, has NOT EVEN CONFIRMED his death as a suicide in print.

Rick Turner, you're out there, perhaps you can find out why the information is so slow in emerging...

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 14 May 13 - 10:02 AM

Trying the link to St. Bob again:

http://photos.santacruzsentinel.com/2013/03/13/editorial-cartoons-steven-decinzo/#3

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Ken Emerson
Date: 14 May 13 - 10:11 AM

Wow, I feel like my pineapple juice got spiked. What a surreal shitstorm we have here at this site folks. And for good reason, as the accusations are severe. I think time will bear things out.. now that this cat is out of the bag, phantom or not. It's all too weird. Maybe R. Crumb needs to tackle this one in a comic for it to 'make sense'. . Malama pono ohana o Lopaka.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,William Hardy
Date: 14 May 13 - 11:03 AM

Though I will reserve judgment regarding the allegations of whether Mr. Brozman is indeed guilty of the sexual abuse of children, I will say that when such allegations are made I personally re-live much of the trauma of my own past. Yes, I survived being repeatedly raped as a young boy some forty years ago. The man who did this was a respected leader in the community. Though I told my parents, they chose to "save me the embarrassment" and trauma. Given the lack of sympathy I have seen on this forum, perhaps this was a good choice, but ultimately I wish that they had made a different choice because recovery is hard when there is no justice. I hope that if there are victims here that they receive support and their stories are heard, and the adults in their lives don't belittle their stories or cover them up just because the person who abused them was respected figure with extraordinary gifts with music. This would have made all the difference for me personally and would have saved me from the pain that I still feel and may have prevented me from being the victim of domestic violence later in life. Childhood rape and later being a victim of domestic violence are linked.

On another note, even if these allegations are completely false, I am saddened that a person who claimed to be an educator would take his own life because of a disability. This could have been a teachable moment. I think of individuals with physical and mental disabilities, including my son and myself, and wonder about the message that this leaves us. I was born with high functioning autism, severe heart problems, and a terrible speech impediment, but never felt a need to give up because of it. Suicide was never an option even in the darkest of moments. Rather, I worked hard and survived and became a successful attorney.

I think of people who have lost limbs in wars, in some of the same Third World countries that Mr. Brozman championed, and because of recent terrorist acts. Many of them have chosen to fight and not kill themselves. Some have creatively found ways to accommodate their disabilities and even learn to play the guitar with only one arm. If Mr. Brozman couldn't play the guitar anymore, he could have inspired people in other ways as a teacher.

I am amazed at some of the victims of the recent Boston marathon bombings who have vowed to run in the marathon next year even though they lost a leg or even two.

Even if he is totally innocent of these allegations, he will remain a coward to those of us who have disabilities and have chosen to live with them and have tried to inspire others by over-coming difficulties and surviving.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Anon
Date: 14 May 13 - 12:02 PM

In the unlikely event that Bob Brozman was innocent of the accusations, he does not deserve to be called a "coward" for checking out early for whatever reason(s) he had.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,William Hardy
Date: 14 May 13 - 02:26 PM

Perhaps I was a bit passionate calling him a coward, but regardless if it was disability that caused him to commit suicide, then he shouldn't be lionized. There are a lot of reasons that people commit suicide, but I think that reasonable people can agree that it is not something that should be celebrated.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 13 - 03:35 PM

While he may have been a brilliant player, it's no secret that Bob could be an abrasive guy and probably burned a bridge or two for every door he opened. Still I was saddened to hear of his death, and further saddened at the disclosure that his death was by suicide. And now this.

Personally I'm witholding opinion until further evidence is presented; however I will admit to having a sinking feeling about all of this. I wonder if we'll ever know? From what I've heard -- and this is by no means confirmed -- there was at least one suicide note and one source has told me there was more than one, however his family is certainly under no obligation to make details public. (Under similar circumstances, would you? I wouldn't.)

Whatever the outcome of all this, ALL victims and survivors of child abuse deserve our help, support and prayers.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: sugarinthegourd
Date: 14 May 13 - 05:56 PM

Frankly, there are a lot of financial disincentives for his survivors to be forthcoming about this. The fact that no one who knows him well has denied this or defended him -- NO ONE as far as I can see -- speaks volumes.

This may not have ever come out in this public way, had that story not been invented about why he killed himself. I think an unexplained suicide would have been sad and puzzling but the idea that he did it because he couldn't play guitar anymore -- that just didn't add up.

That whole line seems to have come from his producer Daniel Thomas, who seems to have been silent through the rest of this. Hopefully he was passing on what he believed to be the truth, rather than making a clumsy attempt to cover up a scandal.

John Salmon

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 13 - 01:13 PM

Any word of the statement from the victims' families that is supposed to be forthcoming?

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,James Johnson
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:03 PM

This is all horrible news. I can't imagine that well respected professionals like Duck Baker, Rick Turner and David Lindley would put their names to something so horrific without having at least some veritable knowledge about the accusations from entirely credible sources. Ditto for Gary Atkinson and wife #1.
There are a few posthumous cryptically significant facts floating around including the youtube video where BB demonstrates total facility a couple weeks before his death, his snarky comments about Michael Jackson on the IGS forum, his amplifier with the "Running Man" logo."Running from what?" Good question.....

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Suzy T.
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:29 PM

Suzy Thompson here. Although I can see the value in having an online place for people to express their grief and disbelief, and to vent about their feelings, I am thinking that perhaps it is time to let the survivors deal with the situation, whether that means legally, spiritually or in some other way. No doubt about it, Bob was a great player of music but a horribly flawed human being.
For those wondering why those who had gotten wind of the pedophile accusations earlier didn't speak up, speaking only for myself, it was to respect the privacy of the victimised. As others posting here have already said very clearly, taking legal action on child molestation charges can be very very tricky, and can easily harm the victim more than the perpetrator. I have no idea what, if any, legal action is underway right now, and frankly, since the (alleged) perpetrator is dead, there's no real reason why those of us not actually personally involved should have to be in the loop. A dead person can't commit any more crimes.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Tom Ball
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:08 PM

^^^^^ Well stated, Suzy, and completely agreed. ^^^^^
--Tom Ball

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:38 PM

An email to me from Happy Traum:
Dear Henry and Richard,

Thanks for your note. You have touched on a painful and difficult subject for us all, both at Homespun and in the greater music community. While we were horrified to hear of the rumors about Bob just as we were reeling from his sudden and unexpected death, the charges we are hearing pose a moral dilemma for us and everyone else who has been associated with him.

First, he has not been tried or convicted of anything in a court of law and we have no way of knowing whether there is, in fact, guilt or what the extent of it might be. I am not saying they never happened but we simply don't know, and he is no longer here to defend himself.

Then, assuming his guilt, there is the issue of whether, as you suggest, we should delete his works from our catalog and, by extension, whether other companies should delete all of his other recordings, books and performances. Do we deprive his blameless widow or daughter of the royalties that his work would bring them? Are they to be punished further for his sins?

Again, assuming the charges are true, do they negate a lifetime of musical excellence, deep knowledge of traditional music, and the first rate instruction that has delighted and informed so many aspiring players? How do you separate the good works that someone does in his lifetime from whatever evil he may have perpetrated? Sony didn't destroy all of Michael Jackson's recordings when he was accused of child molestation; the Catholic church doesn't stop functioning when untold numbers of priests are accused of similar, possibly even more heinous, crimes.

All of this is to say that I don't know the answer. For now, we will leave it up to our customers, like yourselves, who may no longer want to purchase Bob's materials. If you choose not to buy any other Homespun products, that's also your option, but we sincerely hope you will not feel that way. None of us saw this coming and we are as horrified as everyone else, but we are trying to find our way through it.

With best regards,

Happy Traum Homespun Tapes Ltd. email: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 13 - 12:37 PM

"there's no real reason why those of us not actually personally involved should have to be in the loop."

I disagree.It would be good to know whether it is true or not so we can decide whether we want to continue watching his DVDs or listening to his music.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Suzy T.
Date: 16 May 13 - 09:16 PM

In that case, I suggest that everyone back off and let the legal machinations run their course. It won't speed things up to hash stuff out here, and it may even slow things down. If there are indeed legal steps being taken, you can be pretty sure that those who are involved are not able to speak publicly right now.
Even if these horrible things are true, it doesn't wipe out Bob's excellence as a musician. It's possible to admire the art that someone creates, while still despising them as a person.
Happy said it very clearly:
Assuming the charges are true, do they negate a lifetime of musical excellence, deep knowledge of traditional music, and the first rate instruction that has delighted and informed so many aspiring players? How do you separate the good works that someone does in his lifetime from whatever evil he may have perpetrated? Sony didn't destroy all of Michael Jackson's recordings when he was accused of child molestation; the Catholic church doesn't stop functioning when untold numbers of priests are accused of similar, possibly even more heinous, crimes

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:52 PM

All of this makes me think of Woody Allen's "Sweet and Lowdown" about, roughly, a lowdown man who makes sweet art.

In the real world, I have separating the two myself. Especially in the present tense.

Also, I think Bob's narcissism unfortunately came through loud and clear in his music. Despite his tremendous talents I never loved his music for this very reason.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Rick Turner
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:56 PM

I wonder if...or how many...priests have gone to jail for abuse of alter boys out of all of those cases that seem to have been "settled" by the legions check signers of Rome...

And, so, too, do voices seem quieted by hush money from Michael Jackson, even from past the veil of tears.   

How many Hail Mary's and seven figure checks does it take to utterly negate child abuse and erase it from history?

We're in the territory of discussing one of the greatest taboos of at least Western Civilization here. Standing on shaky ground...thin ice...and next to the fires of Hell here, but...

Looks to me as though indulgences are still for sale.

To quote Richard Thompson from the other night: "Good things happen to bad people...and the opposite is true..." The best thing that could happen in this case would be for all the rumours and accusations to be proved false.   

Are any of us holding our breath?

Yeah, me again...Rick Turner

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 13 - 12:31 AM

Rick, according to the database of bishopaccountability.org, a good number of molester priests have gone to prison for their crimes. It's a hard crime to prove, however, and the crimes are often not reported for years after they happen.

-Joe Offer-

Oh.....post #400.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: open mike
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:19 AM

When i heard that he had died, i posted on facebook, checked here, and called my local radio station to ask the d.j. to play his music. Now I am saddened to hear about the unfolding story...but i have resisted posting any more..but am sorry to hear about his troubles and those he caused others. May the healing begin. (ironically the song the d.j. chose to play was "Death Don't Have No Mercy" and perhaps that is true!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:52 PM

Rick Turner is right on the money!

The issue here should be first determining whether this man was abusing poor and powerless children on his constant global travels through the third world and if so working to protect those children from further abuse by local pimps. That should be the PRIMARY focus of any investigation now.

Everyone has to heal but healing is never served by silence and ignoring the suffering of others. People who know facts supporting the idea that this man was a serial pedophile with power and money have an obligation to the world to testify as to what they know or suspect.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Sid from Australia
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:03 PM

I think it is wrong to say, if the original allegations are true, that he travelled the world as a predatory pedophile. Surely if this part was true then their would be more allegations coming out but these are all old allegations. Don't want to imply that all allegations should not be investigated just that I don't feel he was the ongoing predator he is now made out to be. He spent time when travelling with other Muso's & living with their families so surely there is eithher more allegations or he stopped..

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Suzy T.
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:11 PM

I believe that legal action is forthcoming. We can't help with that, in fact our hearsay may even get in the way of justice.
Those who are involved with legal action are almost certainly not allowed to say anything about this matter publicly while legal action is pending.
Let's give the victims some time and space --- the wheels of legal action can grind very slowly and that is a GOOD thing in this case, since the alleged perp isn't around to commit any more crimes.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:18 PM

Sid you are naive if you think rich pedos can't travel the world and never get caught. Life and dignity are cheap in many places. Right here in the West too lots of places.

Watch the documentary Shadow Billionaire about Larry Hillblom.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,James Johnson
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:52 PM

This sums this whole horrific debacle up rather succinctly:
http://www.thecountryblues.com/artist-reviews/bob-brozman/

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 13 - 12:24 AM

Um... Innocent men commit suicide all the time.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Anon.
Date: 30 May 13 - 07:10 PM

Do you not for a moment consider that you are damning a man based WHOLLY on nothing but absolute rumor sourced from an Internet message board?

And isn't it especially shameful for thecountryblues.com to begin their article so fairly:

" thecountryblues.com is a music site. We do not wish to cause harm to the Brozman family nor to cast dispersions upon a man who was so admired as a musician."

And end it as such:

"Sadly, Mr. Brozman's profile on this site has consequently been removed in solidarity with the victims."

... Victims who there has been no evidence provided to prove even exist.

I should hope that any one of you would would expect not to be damned so quickly were it you being accused by an Internet message board.