BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 05:41 PM

Now we know....Abed a-Rahman Ghaminat, deported to the Strip under the Gilad Shalit deal, coordinated the attack with a top Hamas official in Turkey.

Hamas higher-up in Gaza pulled trigger on teens' abduction

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 01:06 PM

Hamas and Iran are saying that if and when Israel pulls back to the pre-1967 lines, they, together with other Palestinians, would bring weapons into the West Bank to achieve their goal of eliminating the "Zionist entity."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 12:45 PM

Mahmoud Abbas says Hamas' behaviour threatens Palestinian unity.
He blames them for the destruction in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 05:32 PM

Whose "truth", Boo- yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 05:28 PM

Embrace the truth Greg.....it will set you free.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 05:24 PM

You bet, Boo- its a real love-fest there. Unless, of course, you're a Palestinian.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 04:00 PM

An English Asian Muslim, Kasim Hafeez, was brought up, like many Muslims, to hate Jews and Israel. But when he went to Israel he saw Muslims, Arabs, Christians, Jews, atheists and others live in peace in Israel and not the LIE that they hear in some mosques. He found out by visiting Israel that Israel is NOT a terrorist apartheid state which is the big media lie.

Kasim Hafeez discovered that Israel is a free democratic society that is constantly under attacks and false claims.

Muslim discovers that Israel is not evil. Shocked to find out Israel is a great country and free

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 12:18 PM

If you only ever report Israel's screw ups it is bias.


Sorry, FKWT, if you'd bothered to listen to the clip BullShot referenced,you'd know that Mr. Friedman claimed no such thing.

Now, if you want a REAL "disproportionate focus" check any of the militant Zionist websites/media outlets/publications.

As well as your own postings here as well as those of the Bullshot & Boo Show.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 11:48 AM

"Sorry, Boo, but one doesn't have to be "biased against Israel" to report its screw-ups and atrocities."

If you only ever report Israel's screw ups it is bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 10:10 AM

Sorry, Boo, but one doesn't have to be "biased against Israel" to report its screw-ups and atrocities.

In addition, a "bias against Israel" doesn't negate the atrocities it has committed.

Nice try, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 09:35 AM

CNN has posted a video by Matti Friedman which examines the issue of whether there was a disproportionate focus on Israel during Operation Protective Edge.

The media coverage of Israel as compared to the rest of the world is grossly disproportionate, considering the small size of the country versus the large Arab presence that surrounds it. Unfortunately, as this video indicates, this has caused a significant media bias against Israel.

CNN has taken the time to review the coverage of Operation Protective Edge. The big issue that CNN reporter Matti Friedman addresses is the strong media bias against Israel.

Matti Friedman on Media Bias Against Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 09:32 AM

ACTUALLY FINDING OUT the truth

Surely you mean YOUR "truth" - i.e. the "truth" according to BullShot.


(NB: Elves: Whatever happened to the "One Screen Rule" for Cut-N-Paste???)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 12:55 PM

Hardly.

But the idea of ACTUALLY FINDING OUT the truth seems to be beyond your comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 12:12 PM

Your ANONYMOUS source, you mean ----

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 12:02 PM

Sorry, Greggie boy, MY source is reality.

Since you have no knowledge of it, you are still confused I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 11:57 AM

You have never accepted any source that you did not agree with, so why bother?

As I thouight, BullShot. Just more of your made-up horseshit. Thanks for the confirmation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 11:36 AM

https://screen.yahoo.com/israel-shows-evidence-rocket-fire-083335901.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 10:15 AM

You have never accepted any source that you did not agree with, so why bother?

You can choose to believe whatever you want, but you fail to persuade anyone that you have any grasp of reality when you ask for sources from others AND FAIL TO PROVIDE ANY SOURCES OR FACTS TO SUPPORT YOUR OWN VIEWPOINT.


Crawl back under your rock, Greggie boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 10:11 AM

Source, Bullshot? Or just more of your made-up horseshit?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 08:36 AM

Useful to Hamas.

"A community of armchair pundits around the world will disingenuously preach restraint and proportional response. To borrow a Soviet term, these pundits, along with many news anchors, correspondents and social media opinion-makers are Hamas's "useful idiots." They may believe they are serving the Palestinian cause, but they are really serving Hamas's vicious agenda, dealing savage blows to the Palestinian future. By blaming Israel in this crisis, Hamas's useful idiots help to force suicidal radicalism on the Palestinian people, at the expense of responsible leadership.

They are complicit in the ongoing tragedy that is, but need not be, Palestine."

Hamas's useful idiots

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 07:43 AM

I really like Greggie boy's new signature line. It fits him so well…


He has proven many times he is an idiot, now he even signs himself as one.


But the question remains, is he "Useful"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 09:53 PM

Gaza is occupied and ruled by the Islamofascist occupiers

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:46 PM

"(Psst: Boo- they don't HAVE self rule, but a colonial occupation)"

You are right there Greg, Gaza is occupied and ruled by the Islamofascist occupiers Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:42 PM

P.S. - try reading what Mr. Lyons & the people he quotes have to say - the whole article now.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:41 PM

(Psst: Boo- they don't HAVE self rule, but a colonial occupation)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:30 PM

If Gaza is an indicator of the consequences of giving self rule to the Palestinians anyone would be a fool to wish the same for the "West Bank".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:10 PM

Merciless slaughter in Gaza appalls (Excerpt)
BY GENE LYONS

What's less understood in this country is that Israel has zealots of its own: militant nationalists on Prime Minister Netanyahu's extreme right who believe that the territories he calls "Judea and Samaria" (and the rest of the world calls the West Bank) belong to Jews by divine dispensation, and that the indigenous Palestinians have no rights.

It's to that faction that Netanyahu is speaking when he says, in Hebrew more plainly than in English, "that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the river Jordan."

"That sentence, quite simply," comments David Horowitz in The Times of Israel, "spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state."

In short, not only no peace now, but no peace as long as Netanyahu can prevent it. He may not be so blunt on "Meet the Press," but that's what he's telling his supporters. Israel, after all, has overwhelming military superiority. Why should it risk anything at all for the illusion — as he sees it — of peace?

The New York Times' brilliant columnist Roger Cohen, a South African Jew resident in Europe, has an answer.

A lifelong Zionist, Cohen writes that what he "cannot accept, however, is the perversion of Zionism that has seen the inexorable growth of a Messianic Israeli nationalism claiming all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River; that has, for almost a half-century now, produced the systematic oppression of another people in the West Bank; that has led to the steady expansion of Israeli settlements on the very West Bank land of any Palestinian state; that isolates moderate Palestinians . . . in the name of divide-and-rule; that pursues policies that will make it impossible to remain a Jewish and democratic state; that seeks tactical advantage rather than the strategic breakthrough of a two-state peace; that blockades Gaza with 1.8 million people locked in its prison and is then surprised by the periodic eruptions of the inmates; and that responds disproportionately to attack in a way that kills hundreds of children."
**

Rest of article Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 03:36 PM

The Algemeiner on September 2, 2014 published an article exposing three " heathcare workers " killed in an Israeli missile strike as Islamic Jihad operatives. The Algemeiner piece reproduces the original report from the Palestinian Center for Human Rights [PCHR], one of the better known non-governmental "human rights" groups in Gaza that western news media occasionally cite. PCHR's entry on Aug. 2 stated,

    At approximately 15:30 (August 1), Israeli warplanes bombarded an ambulance of the Ministry of Health. As a result, 3 health workers were killed: 'Aatef Saleh al-Zameli, 42, the driver; Yousef Ejmai'an al-Zameli, 33, a nurse; and Yousef Jaber Darabih, 25, a volunteer paramedic.

The Algemeiner published the martyr photographs of the "driver," "nurse" and "volunteer paramedic" proudly posted on the web site of the terrorist group, Islamic Jihad, in their military garb.

3 "Health Workers" Killed in Israeli Strike Exposed as Terrorists

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 02:24 PM

Clueless in Gaza

Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 07:57 AM

No use hiding behind euphemisms Carroll, we've got your number.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 05:42 AM

Well this "Brit" knows Israel quite well.

Ditto Palestine.

Nobody is against anything. Some of us are capable of seeing crimes against humanity when we see it.

And recognise those idiots who try to give it credibility through their foolishness.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 05:04 AM

"You are an anti-Semitic bigot."
And you are a right-wing Zionist moron who has denigrated and betrayed the people you claim to be defending
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 08:01 PM

"JERUSALEM: The Israeli army has released what it says is a page from a seized Hamas training manual that would appear to support its case that Palestinian militants deliberately use the cover of residential areas for combat operations."

What proportion of the 360sq.km. Gaza Strip, with its now rather less than the previous 1.7 million people, is NOT residential BB?

Almost half of its total area is within the border strip razed to the ground and rendered uninhabitable by the IDF.

When the IDF orders civilians to leave an area, where exactly can they go to be safe?

How many civilians do you lot think Israel is justified in slaughtering in order to kill one militant? 10?.....100?......1000?.....or maybe just keep going till there's none left? After all, they would then feel safe, or would they?

Who's next? Jordan?......Syria?.......another pop at Lebanon?........or (God forbid) Iran?

After all, they have to find employment for their vast stock of US weaponry!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:54 PM

And more Boo blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:01 PM

Trying to understand some of our Brit posters vehement antipathy toward Israel:

"The aggressive criticism in Europe of Israeli policy is neither anti-Semitism, nor is it a natural political reaction of people of conscience and sound morality. It is mainly a platform for people who are a good deal more interested in showing themselves than they are in showing the evils of the occupation."

Why are Brits who know little about Israel so active against it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 05:45 PM

PA president says conflict with Israel that left thousands dead and much of Gaza destroyed was avoidable.

And guess who he is blaming?

Abbas blames Hamas for prolonged battle with Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 03:13 PM

Crawl back under your rock, Greggie.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 02:53 PM

Can some helpful person re-label this thread to " Bearded Bruce Vociferous Verbal Vomit"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 01:22 PM

Then YOU have chosen to accept the HAMAS figures, and denied the Israeli ones, although Hamas has a long PROVEN history of making up figures for political purposes, which Israel has not been shown to do.

You are an anti-Semitic bigot.

The blood remains on your hands. Every dead Palestinian child is your responsibility, and you have earned the blame by your own posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 01:13 PM

"THOSE FIGURES ARE FROM HAMAS."
Those figure are either from the press or from human rights observers
The only other ones available are from Israel - totally untrustworthy.
Failing either of those - there are no casualty figures and no other information.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 11:50 AM

EVERY time you claim that the number of Palestinian civilians killed BY ISRAEL is the number Hamas claims YOU are supporting killing Palestinian civilians.

NOT one of them is EVER killed by Hamas rockets, or executed by Hamas, or killed for political purposes by Hamas- EVERY body in Gaza is blamed by YOU AND HAMAS on the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 11:44 AM

So, Jimmy the "useful idiot", YOU have NEVER quoted Hamas?

What about all those claims that "xxxx Palestinians have been killed, most of them civilians and children"?

THOSE FIGURES ARE FROM HAMAS.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 11:40 AM

Juicy Brucie
I have never at any time quoted Hamas as evidence, neither has anybody else on this forum
The quote we have all made are usually from the international press or from human rights groups - virtually all of them
I defy you to produce one single quote I have ever made from Hamas - one single one

The fact that you regard all criticism of Israel as either supporting Hamas or Antisemitic is entirely of your own twisted logic - ca't help remembering the hole you got yourself into by claiming Israel sat down at the conference table with terrorists/Palestinians.
You on the other hand, choose your quotes (carefully not linking them) from opinions of extremist right wing Zionists - says all that needs to be saidf on the subject of validity of quotes as far as I'm concerned.
Your running mate, little Booboo, goes even further by choosing his from sites like 'White Supremist' and 'Muslim Watch' - the gutternet.
You continue supporting the ideology that wiped out six million of your people - that appears to be the extent of concern for the Jewish people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 11:07 AM

Jimmy boy,

EVERY post that you have made has presented the HAMAS viewpoint, or the UN report based on the HAMAS numbers, or the BBC report based on the UN report of the HAMAS numbers.

Are you REALLY so dumb as to think that people do not look at your numbers and CHECK to see who is making those claims???

YOU have been presenting the words of those who place their own civilian in peril to make political points with idiots such as yourself.


YOU have their blood on your hands, NOT the Israelis or those of us telling you what you do not want to accept.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 11:01 AM

"Well, since you continue to present the straight Hamas"
Don't suppose you'd care to back this up with a single shred of evidence - no? - thought not.
Still - you can'tgetr round the fact that it was the extreme right that filled the Auschwitz ovens - bet your ancestors are very proud of you!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 10:38 AM

Well, since you continue to present the straight Hamas , certified terrorist view, I suppose you should know...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 10:12 AM

Juicy
Presented texts are invariably selected to suit a pre-formed agenda
Both of your (significantly) unlinked cut-'n-pastes are largely merely opinions riddled with such agendas.
They both come from the extremist conservative right, which has been responsible for making Israel the terrorist state it has become - given your own agenda, you were wise not to link them.
You want to present t continue to present the opinions of such people - feel free
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 09:32 AM

Bruce, you should have figured out by now that they attack the source or the poster because they cannot mount a cogent argument against the facts presented. It has become boring...........yawn!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 08:02 AM

"a gaggle of apologists for terrorists need a naive thick count "

I think that you, Jimmy boy, and GregF fill the role quite well.


Care to discuss the FACTS ? I note Hamas has declared victory- because they met their goal of killing enough Palestinian civilians to make Israel look bad to some "useful idiots", I presume.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:22 AM

Jimmy,

YOU are attacking the source, rather than telling us what if anything is incorrect. BillD would tell you that this is an "ad hominem" attack, and does NOT advance your case.

Perhaps yu would care to argue FACTS: Tell us why YOU think the presented statements do not reflect reality, if you are capable of reasonable statements.

Come on, you can do it. Tell us why it is better to kill your own civilians than to stop trying to kill other countries civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 04:21 AM

Juicie Brucie
You seem to have taken over little Booboo's role of putting up up huge, unlinked cut-'n-pastes in order to prove "Israel is good - all who oppose are Anti-Semite and bad"
Your first offering comes from extremist FrontPage News, whose slogan is "Inside every liberal is an extremist screaming to get out" and who believes that Ronald Reagan was the bees knees.
Your second is from 'The American Thinker' - a conservative American Magazine - the author, Michael Curtis, is a writer dedicated to proving that all criticism of Israel is Antisemitic
What's your point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 11:06 AM

"

There's a painful lesson to be learned for liberals, especially liberal Jews, from the hopefully concluded war in Gaza.

Most of my liberal friends desperately want to believe that the fact that Israel is subject to more criticism than almost any country in the world (including some very scary ones), that respected universities consider calls for boycotts, that student government slates (at UCLA) run and win on pledges not to accept travel from the Anti-Defamation League, that all of this and more has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it is a Jewish state, much less with anti-Semitism. No, it's not about holding Jews to a different standard; it's Israel.

Newsflash: Not so in this war.

Israel is not the "occupier" of Gaza. Israel did not build tunnels into Gaza.

Show me another country that would be castigated, as Israel has been, even in the American media, for protecting its citizens against terrorists who had secretly figured out how to infiltrate their towns and villages, who were sending rockets aimed at major population centers without even a pretense of targeting the military.

You know what the world would say if another country were the one taking on terrorists who have vowed to destroy us, as well. We would say thanks. We would say well done. We would be very glad that they were willing to send their soldiers into harm's way, that they were adept enough to target militants. Would the international media be castigating the country that first warned of impending attacks and then hit houses where the dead were pulled out carrying rifles to the cheers of the crowd? They would not.

How is it that Israel became the villain in a war it did not start, that was necessitated by self-defense, that cost needless lives because Hamas does not value the lives of its own people either?

One of my friends sent me an email from an Israeli doctor whose team had saved the life of a Palestinian woman who had been burned by her own family (likely for straying beyond the proper limits for women). She returned to Gaza and was encouraged to return to Israel for outpatient follow-up. She was stopped at the border, suicide bombs strapped to her body, on her way to her follow-up appointment in Israel. She planned to kill herself and those who had saved her life. Her family told her they would forgive her if she did.

This is why Israelis were overwhelmingly in support of this war. It is because it was a war of self-defense, part of the struggle for survival that we would like to believe is limited to the countries in the Middle East, but is built on hatred and hypocrisy that cannot so easily be cabined.

It is good that there is a ceasefire, good that families on both sides can sleep a little better and breathe a little easier, good that fewer lives may be lost in the short run. But we liberals cannot kid ourselves.

My mother saw anti-Semitism behind every corner and always urged me not to offend. I was determined to push back against those limits — when I was growing up, limits on who could live where and go to school where and even go fishing off of which dock — just like I was determined to push back on the limits imposed on women. No one's victim. Not me. We Jewish Americans have done very, very well and have much to be grateful for.

But blindness is more dangerous than paranoia.

It wasn't — it isn't — just about Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 01:12 AM

I am off for a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:44 PM

GAZA/ JERUSALEM: Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, killed four more Palestinians suspected of spying for Israel, taking the total number of executions of "collaborators" to 25.

Masked Hamas militants fatally shot the Palestinians in the courtyard of a mosque in the Jabaliya refugee camp on charges of spying for the enemy on Saturday.

Hamas-affiliated Al-Majd website quoted security sources as saying that the four were executed in a "revolutionary" way after "legal measures were completed".


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Hamas-executes-4-more-suspected-Israeli-spies-in-Gaza/articleshow/40858710.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:41 PM

JERUSALEM: The Israeli army has released what it says is a page from a seized Hamas training manual that would appear to support its case that Palestinian militants deliberately use the cover of residential areas for combat operations.

Hamas, which denies it puts civilians at risk by storing and firing weapons from built-up areas, dismissed the document as a forgery intended to justify Israeli attacks that have killed hundreds of children, women and other non-combatants.

Israel has been criticised by the United Nations and others for its tactics during the war, including the shelling of densely populated areas and attacks on several UN schools, which Israel says militants were using for cover.

While many legal experts say Hamas is operating outside of international law by firing rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities from built-up areas in the Gaza Strip, they stress that does not absolve Israel of responsibility to comply with the laws of war itself, notably on endangering civilians.

The Israeli army said the training manual was found in the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun at the end of July, when troops were operating inside the enclave. The full manual is 102 pages long, the army said, but it released just one page of it.

That page appears to set out guidelines on how to hide weapons and ammunition in civilian areas, how to transport them into buildings and how to conceal or camouflage explosives.

It is marked at the bottom with "Izz-el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Training and Guidance Branch, Engineering Corps". The al-Qassam Brigades are the military wing of Hamas, the Islamist group that has controlled Gaza since 2007. Unlike other Hamas documents, the page bears no Hamas logo.

"The process of hiding ammunition inside buildings is intended for ambushes in residential areas and to move the campaign from open areas into built up and closed areas," reads the document, written in Arabic.

"Residents of the area should be used to bring in the equipment," it continues, adding: "For jihad fighters, it is easy to operate inside buildings and take advantage of this to avoid (Israeli) spy planes and attack drones."

The guidelines also explain that "the action of hiding weapons inside a building must be carried out secretly and shouldn't have a military character".

An Israeli army spokesman would provide no further details about the document, only to say that the army was "extremely confident it is a Hamas training manual".

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said: "This is a fabricated paper and neither Hamas nor Qassam has anything to do with it."

He added: "Israel circulating this is aimed at justifying the mass killings of Palestinian civilians and massacres committed by the occupation army."

Narrative of war

While it may be impossible to verify whether it is a genuine Hamas manual, the Israeli military's decision to release it underscores the efforts both sides in the conflict are making to justify their actions and support their narrative of events in a war that has drawn international condemnation of each party.

Israel launched its offensive on Gaza on July 8 in response to intense Hamas rocket fire from the narrow coastal enclave. In the seven weeks of conflict since, 2,110 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed, while 64 Israel soldiers and 4 civilians in Israel have also died.

In an interview with Yahoo News last week, Khaled Meshaal, the exile political leader of Hamas, denied that the group fired its rockets indiscriminately at Israel, saying it tried to aim the low-tech munitions at military installations or army bases.

There is little evidence that that is the case - nearly all the 2,500-3,000 rockets and mortars Hamas has fired at Israel since the start of the war seem to have been aimed at towns. On Friday, one hit a synagogue and another killed a four-year-old boy in a kibbutz collective farm close to the Gaza border.

Israel has frequently accused Hamas fighters of taking cover among civilians and operating from residential areas, but it has not always been able to present clear evidence of that.

Some journalists in Gaza during the war captured video footage of rockets being fired from built-up areas, including around Shifa, Gaza's main hospital. Hamas has sought to dismiss those as isolated, one-off incidents or attacks carried out by rogue groups not under its control.

For its part, Israel drops leaflets on residential areas before any attack and makes phone calls to residents telling them to leave the area. On Saturday, the Israeli air force warned residents to leave a 13-storey apartment building before it was destroyed in an air strike. Israel said the building was a Hamas base. No one was killed, 17 were wounded.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Hamas-manual-that-backs-using-civilians-as-cover-found-Israel/articleshow/4

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 12:55 PM

Four Israelis were injured Sunday, two of them seriously, when a large rocket and mortar barrage hit the Erez crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip.

The victims were Israeli-Arab taxi drivers, who were at the crossing to pick up wounded Gazans and bring them into Israel for medical treatment. The wounded were evacuated to Ashkelon's Barzilai hospital.

An outraged Israeli-Arab Erez crossing official, who spoke to Army Radio from a secured area at the crossing during a subsequent rocket attack, lambasted Hamas for not caring about the well-being of the Palestinians in Gaza.

"This is an organization that cares about the [Palestinian] people? They're shooting at the Palestinian terminal," said the staffer. He stressed that, despite the rocket barrages, the crossing had not closed for emergency medical cases, and that two Gaza females were evacuated "20 minutes ago" via the crossing for life-saving surgery in Israel, and that other taxi-drivers were on hand, "as always," to transport emergency patients.

Read more: Waiting to transport sick, drivers at Gaza crossing come under attack | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/waiting-to-transport-sick-drivers-at-gaza-crossing-come-under-attack/#ixzz3BKU4OgDc

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:07 AM

"A mortar bomb fired from Gaza killed a four-year-old Israeli child in a border collective farm on Friday, Israeli security sources said."
Yes - I had missed it and deplore it and any such deaths.
That makes in nearly 20 in twelve years, doesn't it?
Haven't kept up with the death toll in Gaza either - it was 2088, 20 hours ago - the vast majority of them civilians and a large percentage of them women and children

WEDNESDAY

Entire families

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel

470 CHILDREN

Haaretz comment
"How many Palestinian civilians is a single militant worth?
As of Thursday, 76.8 percent of the 2,090 fatalities documented by the Gazan human rights organization Mizan have been civilians."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:07 AM

Three school kids, trying to get home, kidnapped and murdered in cold blood by heavily armed men.

Hamas version, " the heroic operation by the Qassam Brigades in imprisoning the three settlers in Hebron"

How can you feel anything but contempt for such people?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:59 PM

A four-year-old Israeli boy was killed by a mortar shell fired from the Gaza Strip on Friday afternoon. The boy, named late Friday as Daniel Tregerman, was at home with his parents and siblings at their kibbutz in the Sha'ar Hanegev Region, close to the border with Gaza, when the attack took place.

Israeli security source says fatal shell was fired from UNRWA school in Gaza; PM says Hamas will pay heavy price; over 110 projectiles launched at Israel

Read more: Four-year-old killed in mortar attack named as Daniel Tregerman | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/four-year-old-killed-in-mortar-attack-named-as-daniel-turgerman/#ixzz3B9k8xn1B

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:25 PM

In case you missed this, Jimmy boy:

Via Reuters:

A mortar bomb fired from Gaza killed a four-year-old Israeli child in a border collective farm on Friday, Israeli security sources said.
The boy would be the fourth civilian in Israel to be killed in an attack from the coastal territory since the outbreak of conflict on July 8, and the first Israeli death since an Egyptian-brokered truce broke down earlier this week. More than 2,000 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict, most of them civilians.


So you should be just thrilled with the progress toward proportionality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:20 PM

"Hard as it may be for some to understand, the Middle East conflict really is as simple as this: the Jews have returned to their land, never to be separated from it again. And not all the mortars and rockets fired from Hamas will change that fact. If anyone appears tired, it is Hamas, which is rapidly running out of options and reduced to mass executions outside of Gaza mosques in order to maintain their rule. Those expecting Israel to lose this battle of attrition are backing the wrong horse."

A War of Attrition Hamas Won't Win

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 02:58 PM

Jimmy boy will be dancing in the streets…

"JERUSALEM, Aug 22 (Reuters) - A rocket fired from Gaza hit a synagogue in the Israeli city of Ashdod on Friday, wounding three people, police said.

"There is damage at the scene and a number of people were injured by shrapnel," police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. The attack came shortly before evening prayers ahead of the Jewish Sabbath. Ashdod is around 30 km (20 miles) from Gaza.

Hamas and other militant groups fired more than two dozen rockets into Israel on Friday, injuring two other people, with no signs of a let up in the six-week war."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:27 PM

They denied it so long.
Lying is second nature to them yet our gullible dupes lap it all up without question.
Has anyone caught Israel lying ever?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:01 PM

Oh, Jimmy boy.

Ready to admit you were wrong about this, too?

"Senior Hamas Official Says Members Of Qassam Brigade Were Responsible For Abducting Israeli Teens
Reuters         | By Noah Browning
Posted: 08/21/2014 8:34 am EDT Updated: 08/21/2014 6:59 pm EDT Print Article
y Noah Browning

RAMALLAH, West Bank, Aug 21 (Reuters) - A top Hamas official said members of his militant group kidnapped three Israeli teenagers whose deaths in June provoked a spiral of violence that led to the war in Gaza, the first acknowledgement of the movement's involvement.

Hamas, which controls Gaza, has up to now refused to confirm or deny Israeli accusations that it masterminded the abduction and killing of the three young men, one of them a joint U.S.-Israeli citizen, in Hebron.

"There was much speculation about this operation, some said it was a conspiracy," Saleh al-Arouri told delegates at the International Union of Islamic Scholars in Istanbul on Wednesday, according to a recording of the meeting posted online by organizers.

"The popular will was exercised throughout our occupied land, and culminated in the heroic operation by the Qassam Brigades in imprisoning the three settlers in Hebron," he said, referring to Hamas's armed wing.

"This was an operation from your brothers in Qassam undertaken to aid their brothers on hunger strike in (Israeli) prisons," he added.

Jewish seminary students Eyal Yifrach, 19, and Gilad Shaer and Naftali Fraenkel, both 16, were abducted while hitchiking in the Israeli occupied West Bank on June 12 and killed.

Israel promptly accused Hamas, which is based in Gaza but has a presence in the West Bank, of masterminding the attack and began a crackdown on the group in which over a thousand Palestinians were arrested.

Tensions already ran deep in the West Bank after weeks of a mass hunger strike by Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, who is in exile in Qatar, denied knowledge of the abduction but praised its perpetrators.

Nearly three weeks after the kidnappings, 16-year-old Mohammed Abu Khudair, a Palestinian living in East Jerusalem, was abducted, beaten and burned to death by, prosecutors said, a group of Jewish extremists.

Protests broke out in Abu Khudair's neighborhood and Hamas responded by firing rockets at Israel from Gaza.

That escalated into a full-scale war with Israel in which more than 2,000 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed, as well as 64 Israeli soldiers and three civilians in Israel.

Two Palestinian suspects Israel has named as the kidnappers of the three seminary students remain at large.

Israel said a third suspect arrested by its security forces admitted under interrogation to organizing the kidnapping with funds from Hamas in Gaza. (Writing by Noah Browning; Editing by Luke Baker and Andrew Heavens)

Via Reuters:

A mortar bomb fired from Gaza killed a four-year-old Israeli child in a border collective farm on Friday, Israeli security sources said.
The boy would be the fourth civilian in Israel to be killed in an attack from the coastal territory since the outbreak of conflict on July 8, and the first Israeli death since an Egyptian-brokered truce broke down earlier this week. More than 2,000 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict, most of them civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Danny
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 10:21 AM

Most affected are those innocent people who live in the zone gases. Not every Palestinian surely identified with Hamas.



[url "http://footballgamespot.com"]If you like football games come to my site[/url]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 09:04 AM

I was being nice, bobad. It's what I do...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 09:00 AM

Hamas says it was betrayed by Gazans who told IDF where its leaders were.
It has started executing suspects.
18 so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 08:59 AM

"....Jim: it's not worthy of you."

C'mon Mike, who're you kidding, it's totally worthy of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 08:39 AM

"Strategically speaking, the Iron Dome antimissile shield, precisely because of its effectiveness, has been disastrous for Israel: It has saved Hamas from destruction and it has helped to seriously undermine Israel's image as a civilized state in the eyes of many in the West.

During the ongoing Israel-Hamas conflict, Iron Dome has efficiently protected Israel from massive damage and casualties. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the other terrorist organizations operating in the Gaza Strip had launched 2,648 rockets against Israel, and that was before a temporary cease-fire was broken Tuesday. Most fell in empty fields. The 600-odd rockets that had accurately targeted towns and villages were almost all successfully intercepted by Iron Dome's Tamir missiles — a nearly 90% success rate, according to the Israel Defense Forces.

Iron Dome has 'saved' the Israeli government from launching ... a massive ground assault. ... But Hamas remains intact.
-
The civilian death toll in Israel consisted of only two citizens and a Thai guest worker. Had there been no Iron Dome, dozens, perhaps hundreds, of civilians would have been killed; buildings would have fallen. Civilian Israel would have ground to a halt.

No Israeli government could withstand the public pressure that this would have unleashed: The government would have been forced to quickly launch a massive ground invasion of Gaza, which would have been the only way to bring the rocket barrage to a halt. As it is, the Israeli air campaign and a limited ground invasion have failed to halt the rockets.

lRelated A Gaza solution: demilitarization
OP-ED
A Gaza solution: demilitarization
SEE ALL RELATED        
8

If there had been a massive IDF ground invasion, within two or three months Gaza's towns and villages would have been cleared, house by house, of Hamas fighters. Hamas, and its fellow organizations, would have been destroyed as a military and political force. Israel would have been relieved, for a decade or two, of the need to worry about a southern front; the Palestinian Authority under Mahmoud Abbas would have been free, or freer, to cut a deal with Israel; and the destruction of Hamas would have sent a clear message about Israeli resolve and capabilities to all its actual or potential enemies (I include Islamic State, fast-approaching Israel's eastern frontier, among the latter).

Iron Dome has "saved" the Israeli government from launching such a massive ground assault. It would, inevitably, have led to the death of hundreds rather than 60-some Israeli soldiers and many more Palestinians, most of them civilians (the Palestinian Health Ministry says 2,061 have been killed, most of them civilians). But Hamas remains intact.

Op-Ed
RELATED: Israel's doctrine of proportionality in Gaza
RELATED: Israel's doctrine of proportionality in Gaza
Dore Gold
And Iron Dome has been disastrous for Israel in yet another way: Without doubt, the pictures of massive destruction in Gaza in the wake of the limited Israeli air and ground response to the Hamas rockets, with its massive civilian toll among Palestinians, has badly harmed Israel's image among liberal, humane Westerners. "Disproportionality" has been on everyone's lips.

If there were footage of shattered buildings in Tel Aviv, and the dead and dying lying in the streets of the coastal cities of Ashdod and Ashkelon, few around the world would condemn Israel for a massive air and ground assault against a palpably murderous Hamas, with the aim of destroying it. Over the months needed to pacify and demilitarize Gaza, no doubt protests would emerge. But the protests would have been less strident than they are today. Israel would weather the international indignation far better; Israel would be better understood.

cComments
@Angeleno90069 Nonsense, only around 20 civilians have died from Hamas rocket fire in the entire history of the Hamas/Israeli conflict. Only 3 died in the 08-09 Cast Lead month long operation and this was before Iron Dome.
BONSAI777
AT 5:18 AM AUGUST 22, 2014
ADD A COMMENTSEE ALL COMMENTS        
21

One can add to these two "objections" to the Iron Dome system a third, minor quibble: It is costly in terms of dollars as well. Each Iron Dome battery costs about $100 million; Israel currently has nine batteries.

And each Iron Dome Tamir missile that Israel fires — and usually two are sent up to intercept each descending rocket — costs at least $50,000.

Each rocket Hamas fires costs $500 to $1,000 to produce. Hamas had 9,000 rockets at its disposal at the start of the recent conflict. Hezbollah reportedly has 100,000 rockets, including long-range Scuds. Do the math. How Israel might cope economically, not to mention militarily, with such a rocket deluge in a future clash is a very real problem.

Iron Dome
The Iron Dome air-defense system fires to intercept a rocket over the city of Ashdod in Israel. (Ilia Yefimovich / Getty Images)
So far, Israel has coped thanks to the generous financial support of the U.S., which has given Israel over the last decade or so more than $1 billion to cover Iron Dome. Indeed, this month President Obama signed off on an additional $225 million for the program.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 08:37 AM

Hardly really a 'comparison' in idiocy though, Jim. The sort of patriotic fervour of Britannia & Hope and Glory is now unfashionable in many circles, and regarded by some as belonging to a former age. But neither contains any denunciations of any of the nation's enemies, but simply expression of pride in one's own country. Surely not in the same universe of ludicrousness as that ditty denouncing the enemy who has, not just slightly but overwhelmingly defeated the songmakers' side three separate times as insignificant "cobwebs" and "mice hiding behind walls". Please don't pretend you can't see the difference Jim: it's not worthy of you.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 08:29 AM

"Had there been no Iron Dome, perhaps Obama would have refrained from imposing anti-Israeli "sanctions," as he did a few weeks ago when he held up the resupply

of Hellfire missiles for Israel's Apache helicopters. The holdup was unofficially explained as stemming from U.S. concern that Israeli military behavior was resulting in too many Palestinian civilian deaths.

There is an irony here. The Hellfire missiles are precision weapons. Holding up their resupply could have meant that Israel was forced to use more dumb bombs, causing far more collateral damage. In other words, withholding smart weapons would probably result — and may already have done so — in Israeli use of weapons that cause far more civilian casualties.


Which, of course, runs contrary to Israel's policy, whether driven by moral considerations or political expediency. Before fighting resumed this week, the Israeli air force had launched 4,762 strikes, mostly using precision weaponry. These strikes caused several hundred Arab deaths; the remainder were caused in the limited ground assault and by artillery strikes. This means the air force had expended several missiles per death — so either the pilots and munitions were of very poor quality or the Israelis were very, very careful in their targeting, and took great care not to harm civilians.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:54 AM

"which you appear for some reason to have taken to your ♥."
Not i the slightest - just comparing it to our own, and other brands of idiocy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:40 AM

Not a matter of 'sides' in this instance, Jim. I was simply writing about that fatuous song, which you appear for some reason to have taken to your ♥.

Enjoy it, then. I can't even get a good laugh out of its idiocy, but there you go...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

Ending aggression is not to surrender.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:04 AM

"but they don't sink to the stupidity of belittling the demonstrable "
Never found anything stupid about not surrendering in a battle which is ongoing Mike
There was never any doubt who would win shooting war
There is no doubt that Israel has continued aggressive and predatory policies which have ghettoised the Palestinian people with a fair amount of success.   
As far as I'm concerned "whistling in the dark" is tantamount to surrender.
Those who don't do that have my admiration to say the least
It remains to be seen who has won the hearts and minds of the world in all this - I know who have mine.
Yes Britannia did rule the waves - some of us are not too happy about the consequences of their doing so
Won't ask which side you are on - in any of this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:48 AM

...& anyhow, Jim, for 200+ years after James Thomson wrote those stirring words, Britannia did rule the waves, at that; and it would be foolish to try and deny it.

♫♫Bold Nelson's Praise I mean to sing...!♫♫

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:39 AM

Those might be foolishly triumphal in general terms, Jim; but they don't sink to the stupidity of belittling the demonstrable & undoubted achievements of manifestly several-times victorious adversaries.

Do you really not find it even just an itty-bitty bit absurd, to denounce the army that has overwhelmingly defeated your allies, not once, not twice, but three times, as 'cobwebs' & 'mice' who can be easily exterminated despite their habit of 'hiding behind walls' instead of fighting?

Oh, come on, Jim. We all know which side you are on in all this; but do please recognise patently absurd whistling·in·the·dark when you see it, and stop being quite so idiotically po-faced!

Regards
≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:20 AM

Sound like that to me mike - musically, i find it less offensive than many of our current pop pieces - as commentary, its no different than many of the wartime songs that 'kept us going through the dark days'
As for its content - listened to 'Rule Brittania' or @Land of Hope and Glory' lately
There are a lot worse.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:10 AM

Don't know where you extrapolate all that from at all, Jim. I was simply reviewing the song -- I am a folk music critic of long standing, remember? If you want to paint all these triumphalist pictures, carry on: but the models occur purely in your imagination.

But, then, as has been remarked umpteen times before, by as many different posters, you are adept at seeing what you have decided in advance to see, no matter what happens actually to be there!

Your hobby innit. Carry on! Enjoy!!!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

"Talk about singing to keep your spirits up in the dark! It's actually a terribly funny song; totally hilarious; I mean, "
Yo sond as if yu are gloating over the results of a massacre Mike - we won eh?
I'm sure the 2000 dead are pissing themselves - only got them selves to blame for not surrendering
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:30 AM

Talk about singing to keep your spirits up in the dark! It's actually a terribly funny song; totally hilarious; I mean,

High-lair-eye-ouce!!!

Unless, maybe, they did win against 7 invading armies in 1948, & again in 6 days in 1967, by being like cobwebs & mice & hiding behind walls.

Absolutely bloody priceless. They should go & sing it at the Edinburgh Fringe; would walk the comedy prize, eh?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:13 AM

"Hamas made its contempt for Israelis"
Do you know when it's going to be available - quite catchy?
Seems to be a war song made in wartime and aimed at Zionist extremism.
Can't see the point of your - Live-Link item - your propaganda machine seems to be running out of petrol
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 07:16 PM

Hamas made its contempt for Israelis evident in a music video produced early in the war, "Strike, Carry Out Terror Attacks," in which listeners were told they should "annihilate all the Zionists" because Israelis "cannot endure war" and "are like spider webs when they encounter knights." The song, written in Hebrew and meant as psychological warfare, secured the opposite effect as it became the anthem of Israeli soldiers, for whom it symbolized the bloodthirstiness against which they were fighting. Today's attacks continue the pattern of assuming incorrectly that further violence and threats will break Israelis' spirit and lead to capitulation.

Strike, Carry Out Terror Attacks

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 06:52 PM

Gaza corpse photo op for gullible Western media fail

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:32 AM

"He claims that Israel is guilty of other unspecified war crimes,"
So the claim that he said that only Hamas is guilty of war crimes
"that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round."
is not correct.
"he DOES state that the Hamas rockest are each war crimes"
Old news - no "moment of extreme candour".
The rockets, which have killed around twenty Israelis in 12 years are arguably a war crime.
The now more than 2000 dead in the latest (one of four) invasions of Gaza, if not war crimes in themselves, have included many such crimes.
Israel's part in Sabra Shatila was a crime against humanity which was never brought to court.
As with all casualty figures in these conflicts, Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity far outweigh those of Gaza.
A leading Hamas figure has now put his hands up to War Crimes - do you think we will have to wait long before someone from the other side does the same?
I'm not sure how long I can hold my breath.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:45 AM

Jimmy,

YOU state:

"You claimed the Hamas ambassador said that it was Hamas and not Israel who were guilty of war crimes
You posted a link purporting to be him saying it.
The link shows that in fact he said that both bere guilty of committing war crimes
"

In regards to the rockets that HAMAS launches, he DOES state that the Hamas rockest are ecah war crimes, and the Israeli attack are NOT, since there is warning.

He claims that Israel is guilty of other unspecified war crimes, but on the Hamas rockets and warned Israeli rockets, missiles, and artillery attacks on Gaza he is quite specific that HAMAS AND NOT ISRAEL is guilty of war crimes.

People who want the truth can go to the NOW POSTED link and see for themselves. Maybe YOU should as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:31 AM

Oh Dear...
AMBASSADORS STATEMENT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."

The new U.N. commission, which was just announced, is being headed by well-known anti-Israel genocide expert William Schabas. Undoubtedly, it will make a mockery of the real facts on the ground in the ongoing conflict between the Jewish State and the Palestinians, and will likely echo the previous discredited inquiry chaired by Richard Goldstone.

based on past performance, the U.N. is unlikely to bring Hamas or the Palestinian Authority to task for firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately on Israeli towns and villages. The Hamas policy, which it does not deny, is to purposely fire those rockets from schools and mosques in the hope that Israeli retaliations would cause maximum Palestinian civilian casualties and garner world support against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:04 AM

Jimmy,

YOU said I had NOT posted the link earlier- WHICH LIE DO YOU WANT TO PRESENT?


"From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round."
You havn't provided the link here as you did on the other threar - prhaps because he said no such thing
He actually said that both sides were guilty of war crimes - a head count to the total casualty figures will show which side is in front
Both sides have also been accused of strong-arm tactics as far as reporting the war.
Israel has just got rid of its home-based Human Rights group Bar tSelem for not coming up with the right reports
Jim Carroll"


THEN YOU claim he did not say what you claim I did not link to.

Then YOU claim the link YOU WILL NOT GIVE shows something other than what I claim.



SO SHOW THE LINK, YOU LYING BASTARD.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 07:57 AM

"otherwise Jim wouldn't always be so touchy & evasive when asked which bit of the latter he regards himself as part of"
Not touchy Mike - just not prepared to give people like yourself a diversion tactic to avoid argument.
My politics are immaterial - I belong to nothing, I tend not to vote, I read whatever I can from whatever political quarter
I know this - you are an apologist for Thatcher - Thatcher befriended Pinochet and helped prevented put him on trial for war crimes, while at the same time declaring him to be a champion of democracy - Pinochet overthrew an elected government and tortured and murdered thousands of opponents.
You and yours sneer at opponents of your arguments as being "lefty" - if that is the case, I'll take your word for it and wear the badge with pride.
Bruce the Braindead
"SO POST THE LINK YOU CLAIM SAYS WHAT YOU POSTED"
Sighhhh!
Read what I wrote -
You claimed the Hamas ambassador said that it was Hamas and not Israel who were guilty of war crimes
You posted a link purporting to be him saying it.
The link shows that in fact he said that both bere guilty of committing war crimes
I posted nothing.
If you can't be bothered to follow your own links, piss off.
If this is too difficult for you, please get whoever reads these posts for you to explain them at the same time - it really would help you to follow what is going on.
Still no comment on Israeli death squads
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM

The puppet masters behind the terrorists:

Qatar has threatened to expel Hamas politburo chief Khaled Mashaal if the Gaza-based terror organization agrees to the current terms of the ceasefire framework put forth by Egypt.

Read more: Qatar reportedly threatened to expel Mashaal | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/qatar-reportedly-threatened-to-expel-mashaal/#ixzz3AvgGNqVu

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:22 PM

The Israeli Defense Forces confirmed today that three rockets were fired from Gaza on Be'er Sheva, one of the largest cities in the south of Israel, just hours before a ceasefire deal was to be signed by both parties in Cairo.

Fortunately, the rockets fell in open areas between Netivot and Be'er Sheva and no injuries or damage were reported. This is the second time Israel has come under fire from Hamas during a supposed quiet period. On Thursday, eight rockets were fired at the Jewish State in defiance of the agreed truce.

Obviously, Israel can't let this breach to their security go unnoticed or unpunished and Prime Minister Netanyahu Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon have ordered the IDF to respond to the rocket fire.

Reuters reported today that as of this morning, the indirect negotiations in Cairo, between Hamas and Israel, were going well as the sides struggled to hash out a long term deal that would bring permanent quiet to Israel's southern residents as well as the people of Gaza.

Israel announced just before the three rockets were fired today that it had agreed to extend the temporary truce for another 24 hours while the two sides tried to reach an agreement.

In terms of a response to the incessant fire on Israel from Hamas Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, told reporters:

"We are prepared for every scenario. The IDF has made arrangements for a forceful response if the fighting resumes. In the Middle East you need a combination of force and resilience. The IDF has the necessary force, and the 'eternal people' have proved they are not afraid of a winding road. The combination of perseverance and fortitude will help us reach the aim of the operation – security and safety for all Israelis."

Under the circumstances, a lasting agreement between Israel and Hamas is looking less likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:00 PM

Gaza City (Palestinian Territories) (AFP) - Israel and Palestinian militants resumed fire across the Gaza border on Tuesday, sparking panic across the war-torn enclave where residents fled for cover as Israeli aircraft struck.

A military spokeswoman told AFP that two rockets hit southern Israel during the late afternoon and early evening -- several hours before a 24-hour truce was to expire -- and two more were intercepted by missile defences.

Israel ordered its negotiators back from ceasefire talks in Cairo and the military said warplanes hit Gaza. They hit at least 10 targets, according to army radio.

The fighting shattered nine days of relative quiet in the skies over Gaza and cast a dark shadow over Egyptian-mediated efforts to hammer out a longer-term truce.

The chief Palestinian negotiator in Cairo said on Tuesday that no progress had been made.

The Palestinian delegation presented their demands for a truce to Egyptian mediators and were awaiting Israel's response, said the official, Azzam al-Ahmed.

"There has been no progress," he said of Tuesday's talks. "Matters have become more complicated."

The renewal of Israeli strikes spread panic among Gaza residents.

An AFP reporter saw hundreds of Palestinians streaming out of Shejaiya, an eastern area of Gaza City which has been devastated by more than a month of fighting between Israel and the militant Islamist Hamas movement.

More poured out of the Zeitun and Shaaf areas, alarmed by a series of explosions and heading to shelter in UN schools, local witnesses said.

Five Palestinians were wounded, three in the northern area of Beit Lahiya -- two of them children -- and two boys aged six and nine in the southern city of Rafah, the Gaza emergency services spokesman said.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for firing the rockets, two of which hit near the city of Beersheva, which is home to around 200,000 Israelis.

An Israeli official said the negotiating team had been ordered back from Cairo where Egypt has been pushing for a decisive end to the Gaza bloodshed, which has killed more than 2,000 Palestinians and 67 on the Israeli side.

However, there was no immediate confirmation the team had left.

"The Cairo process was based on the premise of a total ceasefire," another official told AFP. "If Hamas fires rockets, the Cairo process has no basis."

Israel has vowed not to negotiate under fire, and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has warned there would be "a very strong response" to any resumption of rocket attacks.
…
Hamas dismissed his remarks as having "no weight".

- 'Sabotaging the talks' -

In Gaza, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri denied the Islamist movement had fired rockets over the border Tuesday, accusing Israel of trying to sabotage the truce talks.

"We don't have any information about firing rockets from Gaza. The Israeli raids are intended to sabotage the negotiations in Cairo," he told AFP.

The talks in Cairo centre on an Egyptian proposal that meets some of the Palestinian demands, such as easing Israel's eight-year blockade on Gaza, but puts off debate on other thorny issues until later.

Although temporary truce agreements have brought relief to millions on both sides of the border, the drawn-out waiting and fear of an all-out resumption of fighting has tested people's patience.

"No one here has any hope," said Riyad Abul Sultan, a father of 10 with thick curly hair, smoking as he sat on a flimsy mattress at a UN school in Gaza.

Amnesty International, meanwhile, renewed its appeal for access to Gaza.

"Valuable time has already been lost and it is essential that human rights organisations are now able to begin the vital job of examining allegations of war crimes," it said.

The Palestinians say agreement over a long-term arrangement in Gaza has been delayed by Israeli foot-dragging over key issues.

Israel wants Gaza demilitarised although the subject does not figure in the Egyptian proposal as seen by AFP.

- Hamas shift -

Hamas had repeatedly warned it would not extend the temporary ceasefire again, pressing for immediate gains that would allow it to claim concessions from Israel after the devastating war, which began on July 8.

Egypt's proposal calls for both sides to immediately cease fire and includes provisions relating to opening the borders to allow for free movement of people, goods and construction materials, as well as a clause on regulating the economic crisis within the impoverished enclave.

But crucially, it postpones discussions on issues such as a port and airport for another month, until "after calm and stability returns," along with talks over exchanging the remains of two Israeli soldiers for the release of Palestinian prisoners.

Meanwhile, Jordan's national carrier confirmed Tuesday it had resumed flights to Tel Aviv after suspending them for a month due to rocket fire near the runway of Israel's main airport.

Royal Jordanian, which operates 20 flights a week to Tel Aviv, said it resumed normal operations on Sunday.

The rocket strike had prompted major US and European airlines to halt flights to Israel for several days in July over safety fears.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 07:24 AM

Jimmy,

YOU know far more than I about Gatestone. I don't go there- I get my pastes from such rabble as AP and Reuters.


SO POST THE LINK YOU CLAIM SAYS WHAT YOU POSTED- I have not seen YOU post any sources, just make unsubstantiated comments.


We KNOW you can lie- Can you show that you are capable of telling the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 06:38 AM

The Gaschambers Gang were a different entity entirely from Gatestone &c.

There isn't only one sort of "extremist right", any more than only one sort of "extremist left" — otherwise Jim wouldn't always be so touchy & evasive when asked which bit of the latter he regards himself as part of. His politics, he always declares, are nobody's biznis but his own; to which I always riposte, that is pretty rich in a discussion of a political matter; & that if anyone accused him of being aligned anywhere but somewhere on the Left he would be mortally offended.

Can you deny any of this, Mr 'MYOB' Carroll?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 05:20 AM

Perhaps it's time to remind those who support Israel with claims of "Antisemitism", that Zioist groups like The Gatestone Institute, and the Israeli Administration are the same "extremtst right" that Einstein's letter warned of following the birth of the State of Israel.
It was the extremist right who herded six million Jews to their fate in the gas chambers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:23 AM

Speaking of reputable sources - much of your information is sourced fromthe extremist Zionist propaganda website 'Gatestone' - you've just treated us to a chunk of it (though you've carefully avoided not linking it.
"The truth about Hamas sometimes emerges from the hidden tunnels"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:20 AM

"Oh? YOU have to at least show WHAT HE SAID to make this claim.
Go and listen to what he said on your clip - it's an oral statement with translation
He actually said that both sides had committed war crimes, not, as you claimed, one and not the other
Maybe it's the writing that confused you - perhaps you should get the reader your mates use to read it out for you.
"SHOW ME THE TRANSCRIPT OF HIS STATEMENT from a reputable source."
Its on the film you put up - not a reputable source in your case, I admit
Hirsute prick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 10:26 PM

Sources for 18 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM   & 18 Aug 14 - 01:56 PM Cut-N-Pastes, Bullshot - or did you just make'em up as per usual?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:56 PM

"The Hamas-run health ministry said 10 people, including nine children under the age of 12, were killed and 46 wounded in the blast at a park in the Shati refugee camp on the outskirts of Gaza City.

Israeli and Palestinian officials are blaming each other for that attack and a separate one, which Gaza officials reported at a nearby hospital outpatient clinic.

"This incident was carried out by Gaza terrorists whose rockets fell short and hit al-Shifa Hospital and the Beach (Shati) camp," said Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, an Israeli army spokesman.

He said the explosion in the park was caused when a rocket launched by Gaza militants misfired. Palestinian police and civil defence said an Israeli missile hit as children were playing on a swing set.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:58 PM

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's Shin Bet security service says it has thwarted a Hamas coup attempt in the West Bank, though it provided few details.

The service says that it arrested more than 90 Hamas operatives in an alleged plot to carry out attacks against Jews and wrest control from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

It says it also confiscated weapons and more than $170,000. It says the plot was orchestrated by a senior Hamas official based in Turkey and that local officials were aware.

Hamas officials had no immediate comment to the claim.

Hamas overtook the Gaza Strip in 2007 from forces loyal to Abbas. It is currently negotiating to Cairo over a cease-fire to formally end the Gaza war.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM

The truth about Hamas sometimes emerges from the hidden tunnels in which the terrorist group has concealed it. After numerous appearances by Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal on CNN television denying that Hamas uses people as human shields to protect its fighters, a Hamas publication found in a tunnel states the opposite.

Among the documents seized by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in Gaza is a handbook on urban warfare issued by the Shuja'iya Brigade of the Al-Qassan Brigades of Hamas. It issues instructions to citizens on how to make explosives, on hiding them in places such as television sets and wall mounts, and on planting them in locations that IDF personnel were unlikely to expect.

The handbook recognizes that Israel tries to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties and limits its use of weapons to avoid this. It also realized that information about such casualties and the destruction of civilian facilities increases the hatred of Israel by Palestinians.

Not surprisingly, except perhaps to some in the mass media, Hamas instructs Palestinians to describe their dead always as "innocent civilians," and to refrain from indicating that rockets are being launched from populated civilian areas. No pictures must be shown of rockets fired into Israel from Gaza cities.

A Hamas video directs individuals, "Be sure to humanize the Palestinian suffering."

Many in the "international community" are hesitant to acknowledge the reality of the tactics of Hamas. This was noticeable in the remarks of House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, who informed CNN that the Qataris have "told me over and over again that Hamas is a humanitarian organization."

Unstated is the fact that this information may come from the heroic Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, who lives and operates in Qatar, not in Gaza. It also ignores the fact that the U.S. administration designated Hamas as a "foreign terrorist organization" in 1997.

The mainstream media persist in viewing acceptance of the Hamas conditions, the end of the Israeli "blockade" of Gaza and of limits on border crossings, and the release of prisoners in Israeli jail as essential for a ceasefire to last. Much sympathy has resulted for an end to the "blockade."

But two things are pertinent. One is that the blockade was imposed to prevent the import of material, cement as well as arms, that Hamas might use for military purposes. The extraordinary discovery of more than thirty tunnels – a sophisticated military infrastructure that has used thousands of tons of cement – for infiltrating Israel amply shows the problem.

In addition, while the terrorists hide in the tunnels, civilians have been used as human shields to prevent Israeli attacks on mosques, hospitals, and schools.

A second issue relates to the thousands of rockets, the exact number perhaps more than 10,000, that Hamas possesses, and more than 3,500 of which were used in attacks against Israel in the month of July. The question arises: how did Hamas get those rockets, and from whom, if there was a complete blockade?

Apart from these specific issues, the most important gap in much of the commentary on the Gaza situation is the clear statement on the nature of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad (IJ) movement in Palestine – regardless of whether one considers what is supposed to be the "political wing," which is supposed to be a moderate, restraining element, or the military units (namely, the Al-Qassam Brigades and the Al-Quds [Saraya al-Quds] Brigades).

Who is responsible for firing the thousands of rockets, and which group has the main stockpile of weapons?

There is no secret about the objective of these related groups: the destruction of the State of Israel, and the creation of an Islamic state within the borders of the pre-1948 British Mandated Palestine. The secretary general of Islamic Jihad, Ramadan Shallah, has declared that he will never accept the existence of the state of Israel, and that "it is our sacred duty to fight."

The field commander of IJ, the 26-year-old Abu Malek, promotes "the liberation of all Palestine from the sea to the river."

The clue to the intentions of Hamas is given in the Hamas Charter of 1988, a mixture of anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel. Using the Avalon Project translation of the Charter or Covenant, one can discern the stated objectives of Hamas. Only a few selections, sometimes in oblique language, are necessary to understand this.

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement) strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, "There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him."

The Hamas Charter gives an answer to all the well-meaning groups and individuals who call for a peace conference. It declares that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day. Rejecting calls for an international conference to solve the "Palestinian" question, it declares that there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad.

Initiatives, proposals, and international conferences are all a waste of time and are vain endeavors.

The mass media will perhaps be surprised to learn from the Charter that Jews have taken control of the world media, news agencies, publishing houses, and broadcasting stations. Objective historians may be surprised that Jews have stirred revolutions in various parts of the world and were behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution, and most others. All this for "sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests."

The Charter informs us of future developments. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. The Islamic Resistance Movement must prevent this, and to leave the "circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason."

The question arises: can members of Hamas, who believe that the "Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the earth," be genuinely interested in any possible reconciliation with Israel when destruction of the Jewish state is at the core of their concern?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 08:09 AM

Jimmy boy,

"he did not make the statement you claim he did"

Oh? YOU have to at least show WHAT HE SAID to make this claim.


The burden of proof that your statement is true ( which, based on your history is slim to none) is on YOU- IF HE DID NOT SAY THIS, what did he say? How do you come up with YOUR conclusion that a direct quote is nonexistent- SHOW ME THE TRANSCRIPT OF HIS STATEMENT from a reputable source.

You are known as a liar- why should anyone think this is any different from your other lies?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 05:14 PM

Mark Levine:Author; Professor, Middle Eastern History, UC Irvine & Center for MES, Lund University

A Dear Jon (Voight) Letter About Gaza and the History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
Posted: 08/15/2014 10:36 pm EDT Updated: 08/15/2014 10:59 pm EDT

Dear Jon Voight,

We write to you as admirers of your work for many years. We are also professors of modern Middle Eastern studies, specializing on the history and contemporary realities of Israel, Zionism and Palestine, and between the two of us, we have written and edited over half a dozen books on the country and the two peoples who are destined -- or doomed, depending on your point of view -- to share it.

We have read your open letter to Javier Bardem, Penelope Cruz and other critics of the latest Israeli bombing and invasion of Gaza, in response to their own open letter condemning Israeli actions during the war. Your passion for defending Israel is clearly as great as your passion for acting. However, behind your passion is a view of Israel's history and current actions that are utterly at odds with the actual history and present-day realities in the country. They are simply dead-wrong, and your belief in them has led you to adopt views that will ultimately -- and at this rate, sooner rather than later -- doom, not defend, Israel. Moreover, while you have laudably said that they or other actors should not face industry sanctions for standing up to Israel, we believe that the intensity of your criticism, coupled with the inaccuracy of the arguments, not only exacerbates the rewriting of the conflict's history in the mainstream media but contributes both to a toxic atmosphere of hatred against Palestinians and to a purported blacklist against them.

Let us begin with your opening argument:

They are obviously ignorant of the whole story of Israel's birth, when in 1948 the Jewish people were offered by the UN a portion of the land originally set aside for them in 1921, and the Arab Palestinians were offered the other half. The Arabs rejected the offer, and the Jews accepted, only to be attacked by five surrounding Arab countries committed to driving them into the sea. But the Israelis won. The Arabs tried it again in 1967, and again in 1973, launching a sneak attack on the holiest Jewish holiday. Each time the Jews prevailed but not without great loss of life. And when Israel was not fighting a major war, it was defending itself against terrorist campaigns.

This is the traditional narrative of Israel's birth, part of what Israeli hisitorian Simha Flapan described as the "myths" surrounding Israel in his famous 1987 book The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities. However, this is a distortion of the actual history, which saw Zionism arrive on the soil of a Palestine that was already in the midst of its own modernization, against which what Israeli sociologist Gershon Shafir describes as a "militant [Zionist] nationalist movement" developed, deploying the "conquest of labor" and then the "conquest of land" to increasingly powerful effect once the British conquered Palestine in 1917.

After three decades of British rule that was legally committed -- through the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate -- to facilitate the creation of a Jewish "national home" at the expense of fostering Palestinian Arab nationalism, outright civil war became inevitable. When war finally came, the Zionist leadership "accepted" the terms of the 1947 Partition Plan. In reality, they had little intention of actually fulfilling them, and over the next year, through intercommunal conflict and then all-out war, three quarters of a million Palestinians were permanently forced from their homes, and over 500 villages were destroyed.

As for your claims that Israel was attacked by surrounding countries determined to throw it into the sea, this too is belied by the historical record. As Oxford University professors Avi Shlaim and Eugene Rogan demonstrated in their book The War for Palestine, Rewriting the History of 1948, minimal and badly trained and equipped forces were sent; their main goals were to prevent themselves from looking like collaborators and their rival Mufti of Jerusalem from establishing a state, and, where possible, to take whatever territory they could for themselves. Most important here, Jordan -- the one neighbor with an effective, British-run army -- had reached a modus vivendi with the Zionist/Israeli leadership in which it would take over the West Bank and leave Israel the rest of the country. The only exception was Jerusalem, about which the two sides couldn't agree and which therefore became the scene of the worst fighting of the war.

Let's leave aside the fact that you don't mention the 1956 tripartite invasion of Egypt by Israel, France and the UK, which not even Israelis argue was a defensive war. Similar to your description of 1948, your description of 1967 as the "Arab trying again" to destroy Israel is historically inaccurate. There were certainly many threats emanating from Arab capitals in the late spring of 1967, but ultimately it was Israel, not the Arab states, that clearly launched a "sneak attack." The CIA even predicted that Israel could wipe out the combined forces of the surrounding states in roughly five days, which is exactly what happened.

While presented to the world as a war of survival, 1967 was in fact a war of conquest and expansion. How do we know this? Quite simply because that's just what Israel did: It conquered and occupied the West Bank, Gaza, Sinai and the Golan Heights and proceeded to settle them intensively, particularly in the biblical heartland of the West Bank.

Here, Mr. Voight, it is absolutely crucial to understand that if Israel were really afraid to turn over the West Bank to Palestinians for security reasons -- that is, if the occupation were in fact about security -- it could have maintained a military occupation to this day without violating international law. But instead it began a settlement enterprise that came to dominate Israeli political life, eventually placing well over half a million settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, in clear contravention of international law, which expressly forbids transferring civilians from one country into an occupied territory.



Continued Here

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 01:33 PM

This is how Hamas negotiates a cessation of hostilities:

"The Israelis have two choices: accept our demands, or prepare for a war of attrition with us, Hamas senior official Osama Hamdan said, according to Israel Radio."

Read more: Hamas threatens war of attrition if terms not met | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-threatens-war-of-attrition-if-terms-not-met/#ixzz3AZrcXTYJ

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 10:07 AM

An excellent analysis of Hamas' strategy:

"Sometimes one hears that the Hamas strategy is difficult to understand, appears irrational, is self-defeating, and so forth. After all, they are not going to destroy Israel with their rockets, and every time there the conflict heats up they end up with a huge amount of physical damage to Gaza. But I think the strategy is not so complicated and makes sense."

Hamas strategy revealed (it isn't so complicated)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 09:53 AM

In a somewhat unorthodox summer camp in the Gaza Strip, children aged between six and 16 picked up AK-47s and engaged in a series of quasi-military drills, including a lively game of "kidnap an Israeli soldier" in the sand dunes of Rafah.

An AFP correspondent listed some of the activities the Islamic Jihad summer camp offers its enrollees: Weapons use, jumping over fire and crawling under barbed wire, all performed to the tune of exploding charges.

Gaza kids play 'kidnap Israeli soldier' in summer camp

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 02:21 AM

"YOU can't have it both ways: If you have what he said, YOU HAVE THE LINK- so post it.
"Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round."
You posted the link on which the Hamas spokesman made his supposed statement - he did not make the statement you claim he did - why on earth should I re-post it
You invented it - you are getting as stupidly dishonest as Keith by lying on what you yourself have put up -
The pressure of responsibility of acting as unpaid spokesman for Israeli atrocities seems to be getting to you - you really are not very good at this, are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 09:12 PM

CONFIRMED: TOP U.N. OFFICIAL ADMITS HAMAS USES HUMAN SHIELDS. Watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvaZ1a9wW3Y

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 02:09 PM

g'night, Bullshot. Time for a nap- you're getting cranky again.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 01:28 PM

Jimmy boy,

YOU STATE:

"You havn't provided the link here as you did on the other threar - prhaps because he said no such thing
He actually said that both sides were guilty of war crimes - a head count to the total casualty figures will show which side is in front
"

YOU can't have it both ways: If you have what he said, YOU HAVE THE LINK- so post it.

If YOU don't have the link, your statement is obviously a lie- HOW COULD YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID???





And the Palestinian Civilian Casualties are the responsibility of Hamas, both by direct action ( killing dissidents tunnel workers, and with anti-personnel warheads) and by using them as human shields.

So Hamas is FAR in front in the War Crimes race.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round."
You havn't provided the link here as you did on the other threar - prhaps because he said no such thing
He actually said that both sides were guilty of war crimes - a head count to the total casualty figures will show which side is in front
Both sides have also been accused of strong-arm tactics as far as reporting the war.
Israel has just got rid of its home-based Human Rights group Bar tSelem for not coming up with the right reports
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 10:27 AM

So, the truth begins to come out, useful idiots take note:

A Hamas official inadvertently acknowledged on Thursday that the group had strong-armed journalists in Gaza into a reporting style that suited its narrative, keeping many under surveillance and kicking out of the territory those who filmed the launching of rockets at Israel.

Hamas admits intimidating foreign press who reported wrong 'message'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 05:26 PM

UNRWA has become a convenient surrogate for terrorist organizations, led by Hamas, which was chosen in successive elections to lead the workers union and the UNRWA teachers union, as the key mentors who influence generations of Palestinian refugee descendants about engaging in 'right of return' through jihad, to Arab villages that existed before 1948.

The Hamas takeover of the UNRWA institutions and UNRWA staff should set off alarms regarding the possibility of funding given by donor countries (primarily the United States) finding its way to financing the salaries of Hamas and Islamic Jihad activists. Beyond the issue of terrorism, UNRWA and the Palestinian leadership assist through their policies in perpetuating the problem and misery of the refugees. The Palestinian leadership has made it clear that the government will not settle the refugees in the settlement areas evacuated by Israel during the 2005 Disengagement, in order to maintain their right "to return."

Improving the conditions of the refugees does not reduce from the demand for return or compensation, as it is maintained for the Palestinian refugees currently living outside the camps (as well as for Jews who were expelled from Arab countries). It seems as though the interests of the Hamas government is to use UNRWA facilities and resources, to prevent the dismantling of the refugee camps, despite the severe distress that leads to extremism, with the plan of returning to Palestine. In a situation such as this, there is no justification for the continued status quo of UNRWA, if the organization sees its entire purpose in maintaining the misery of refugees in the camps, and certainly after the deep involvement of the terrorist organization in the last month has been exposed.

An immediate and independent investigation is required into the infiltration of Palestinian terrorist groups into UNRWA, the use of its facilities for the purpose of terrorist attacks and rocket storage as well as the transfer of UNRWA equipment to be used by Gaza terrorist organizations and last but not least, the indoctrination of the future generations to war and strife.

UNRWA as a Convenient Surrogate for Terrorists Organizations

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 11:11 AM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."

The new U.N. commission, which was just announced, is being headed by well-known anti-Israel genocide expert William Schabas. Undoubtedly, it will make a mockery of the real facts on the ground in the ongoing conflict between the Jewish State and the Palestinians, and will likely echo the previous discredited inquiry chaired by Richard Goldstone.

based on past performance, the U.N. is unlikely to bring Hamas or the Palestinian Authority to task for firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately on Israeli towns and villages. The Hamas policy, which it does not deny, is to purposely fire those rockets from schools and mosques in the hope that Israeli retaliations would cause maximum Palestinian civilian casualties and garner world support against Israel.

The fact that Israel is being taken to task by the U.N. for alleged war crimes in Gaza is absurd, and a disgrace to the United Nations whose whole purpose is supposed to be to champion human rights and not oppress them."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 08:29 AM

Palestinian Islamic Scholar Explains Alleged Jewish Control of America

Blatant Jew hatred

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM

beardedbruce that is just Christmas's application of double standards.

By the way notice no mention at all by our team of "useful idiots" of that harmless Hamas rocket fired into Egypt that killed a 13 year old Egyptian girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 08:06 AM

Jimmy boy,

The ARAB PALESTINIAN Homeland was formed in 1922-23 from 77%+ of Mandate Palestine.
TRANSJORDAN.


If the ARAB LEAGUE had not kept the Palestinian refugees in camps, they could have been settled into Arab nations.

The greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands WERE settled in Israel and other places.

The Hindu refugees from Pakistan and Bangladesh were settled in India.

The Muslim refugees from India were settled in Pakistan and Bangladesh.


Why do YOU insist that the present Palestinian refugees should be forced to stay in camps RUN BY THE UN, and NOT settled in other Arab nations?
WHY do YOU insist that ONLY the Palestinians should be returned to lands that they left, and give NOTHING to the LARGER number of Jews that were driven out in the same conflict?
WHY do YOU insist that the Palestinans can commit war crimes and NOT be held accountable, while the Israelis WHO THE PALESTINIANS SAY are following the rules of war and giving warnings should be accused of war crimes?


I think the answers are obvious, but let us hear them from YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:52 AM

The Foreign Press Association (FPA) issued an astonishing protest yesterday about "blatant, incessant, forceful and unorthodox" intimidation of journalists in the Gaza Strip by Hamas. "In several cases," they complained, "foreign reporters working in Gaza have been harassed, threatened or questioned over stories." The FPA said this amounted to "denying readers and viewers an objective picture from the ground," adding "we are also aware that Hamas is trying to put in place a 'vetting' procedure that would, in effect, allow for the blacklisting of specific journalists. Such a procedure is vehemently opposed by the FPA." The statement raises a lot of questions. Here is one: why have British broadcasters not mentioned any of this to their viewers?

Hamas manipulated and intimidated the media in Gaza. Why was that kept from us?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:48 AM

"Oh Christmas on this "traditional homeland" "fairy tale" you have thrown into the equation - do you think that if you or I could select the best place for either of us to live then claim it as our "traditional homeland""
Thanks for reitrating the points that all of you have been making - the Palestinians have no place in their own home
Time for another "final solution"- wipe 'em all out eh ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:41 AM

GAZA/JERUSALEM (Reuters) - A renewed truce between Israel and Hamas appeared to be holding on Thursday despite a shaky start, after both sides agreed to give Egyptian-brokered talks more time to try to end the Gaza war.

The Israeli military said Gaza militants breached the truce and fired eight rockets at Israel and that in response, aircraft targeted multiple "rocket launchers and terror sites" across the enclave.

Hamas official Izzat Reshiq denied the Palestinians had breached the truce, and denounced Israel's air strikes as "a violation of the calm".

No casualties were reported in any of the incidents, and hostilities ended by dawn.

A halt in more than a month of fighting, in which 1,945 Palestinians and 67 Israelis have been killed, had been set to expire at midnight on Wednesday. The violence is the deadliest since the two sides fought a three-week war in the winter of 2008-9.

View gallerySenior Hamas official and delegation leader Moussa …
Senior Hamas official and delegation leader Moussa Abu Marzouk (C) and other Palestinian negotiators …
At the last minute, the Palestinians announced in Cairo that the truce was extended by another five days for the sides to work out a long-term ceasefire, mediated by Egypt.

"Israel has accepted the ceasefire extension," said an Israeli official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

Oh Christmas on this "traditional homeland" "fairy tale" you have thrown into the equation - do you think that if you or I could select the best place for either of us to live then claim it as our "traditional homeland" on the grounds that we have visited/worked/lived there for a period of eighteen months that that would that satisfy your criteria? As far as right of return for an Arab from any Arab country that satisfies the UN's criteria for any Arab to claim right of return to live in Israel, or receive compensation from the State of Israel.

But on the other hand if you happen to be Jewish and if you happen to have been forcibly dispossessed and deported from villages, towns, cities in Arab countries where you and your forefathers have lived for hundreds of years then there is no compensation on offer, no right of return - Just up your street eh Christmas - one law for the goose completely another for the gander - the true two-faced, hypocritical, "socialists" way.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:31 AM

Excuse me Christmas but what is the link between this apparent quote:

"", the terrorist group is taking pains to clarify it has no intentions of desisting from trying to wipe Israel off the map."

AND this:

"Arutz Sheva (Hebrew: ערוץ שבע‎) (Channel Seven) is an Israeli media network identifying with Neo-Zionism.
ARUTZ SHEVA"

I opened the link you supplied and saw no such quote - Was the quote more of your "made-up-shit" Christmas??

"""Maps be fucked" -says Christmas So you freely acknowledge that there is no Two State "solution"" - Teribus

I'm saying no such thing - I'm saying that 'maps of convenience ore not worth the paper they are printed on unless they represent the rights of all concerned to live in their traditional homelands." - pathetic Christmas exercise in wriggling to avoid answering a fairly simple question

Well Christmas the only problem with that is that the Palestinian Authority has conned the UN and useful idiots such as yourself into believing that after an extended and bloody period of 67 years the Palestinians are willing to settle for a "Two State" Solution offering less than the one they rejected in 1937 and in 1947. Looking at things reasonably, rationally and logically if some terrorist twat, or the mouthpiece of some terrorist twat came up to me and said they would settle for a Two State solution my very first response to him would be the question:

"Okay, let's see what you would propose as defining the borders of these two States."

Now for this twat to do that he would have had to have thought about it in conjunction with his fellow terrorist twats and they would have come up with something to show me - if they did indeed want to settle for a Two State solution - IF on the other-hand they did not then these twats would never have bothered charting out a map.

I have asked you to produce the Hamas/Fatah/Palestinian Authority map of THEIR vision of the Two State solution THEY CLAIM they are fighting for - so far nothing - WHY? Because no such map exists, because they are not looking at a Two State solution they are looking at the destruction and annihilation of Israel and the Jewish people - Read the Hamas Charter. It isn't going to happen of course, they (Hamas/Fatah/Palestinian Authority/Hezbollah/Iran) will keep the kettle boiling by launching attacks on Israel - right down until the very last Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank has been killed.

By the way Christmas what on earth is a "traditional homeland"??? Where is yours for instance, having been born in Liverpool? If you claim elsewhere because of parentage then how far back is one allowed to go? Is there any official definition? Or is it as I suspect only more of your "made-up-shit".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:29 PM

On the first day of the ground invasion his battalion of 600 were involved in heavy fighting against the Hamas terrorists. "On a battlefield," he explained, "there is something called a dead zone. It's the territory that is controlled by your enemy and open to their fire. It's difficult to move from one point to another in a dead zone. But in this war," he continued, "we saw Hamas fighters moving through dead zones holding 5-year-old children in front of them as human shields. I am a father. I cannot even begin to understand the mentality of a fighter who would use a child to protect himself. Are these even men?"

He then recounted holding a machine gun. His soldiers had spotted a Hamas rocket about to be launched. He was about to order the soldiers to open fire when suddenly children started walking toward the soldiers right in front of the rocket. "My soldiers are eighteen and they're making life and death decisions, trying to decide, 'Should I allow children in Sderot to be bombed today by not firing on the rocket? But if I fire I may hurt a Palestinian child.'" He told his soldiers to stand down. The rocket was fired.

Read more: Battling dark emotion at the Gaza border | Shmuley Boteach | The Blogs | The Times of Israel http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/battling-dark-emotion-at-the-gaza-border/#ixzz3AK0e07jA

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:54 PM

Associated Press By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH and TIA GOLDENBERG
4 minutes ago

CAIRO (AP) — Israel and Hamas agreed to extend a temporary cease-fire for five days, Egyptian and Palestinian officials said Wednesday, potentially averting renewed violence and permitting the sides to continue to negotiate a substantive deal to end the war in Gaza.

Egyptian mediators had been racing to pin down a long-term cease-fire as a temporary truce was set to expire at midnight. The Israeli military said five rockets were launched at Israel in the hours leading up to the end of the cease-fire.

Egypt's foreign ministry and the head of the Palestinian negotiating team announced the extension. A spokesman for Israel's prime minister had no immediate comment.

The cease-fire extension is meant to grant both sides additional time to negotiate a longer-term truce and a roadmap for the coastal territory.

The lull in violence has also been a welcome reprieve for Israelis and Palestinians living in Gaza. During the temporary cease-fire, Israel halted military operations in the war-battered coastal territory and Gaza militants stopped firing rockets, aside from the ones late Wednesday.

"We have agreed on a cease-fire for five days," said Azzam al-Ahmad, the head of the Palestinian delegation to the Cairo talks. He noted that there had been "significant progress" but that disagreements remained over the wording regarding security arrangements, reconstruction efforts for the Gaza Strip and the permissible fishing area.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:00 PM

Note Hamas refers to Israel itself as "the occupation."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:56 PM

Gaza City (Palestinian Territories) (AFP) - A 72-hour truce between Israel and Hamas teetered on the brink of collapse Wednesday with a rocket hitting the Jewish state just hours before it expired at midnight.

Shortly before the rocket hit, an official told AFP Israel was willing to extend the lull by another three days as the Palestinians expressed hope they could reach a deal in indirect talks brokered by Egypt.

Israel police and the army said the rocket hit an open area near Gaza's northern border shortly after sirens rang out across the south.

But Hamas, Gaza's Islamist de facto rulers, said its militants were not responsible.

"Hamas denies firing any rockets towards the occupation this evening," spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said in a statement.

The attack jeopardised the hopes of millions who were banking on Egyptian mediators to clinch an agreement after days of frantic shuttle diplomacy between Israeli and Palestinian delegations.

Without agreement on an extension or a long-term truce, the two sides risk a resumption of the deadly fighting, which has killed more than 1,950 Palestinians and 67 on the Israeli side since July 8.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:50 PM

Can you believe this shit from the UN!

"The United Nations slammed Israel for possibly committing war crimes in its fight against Hamas — and then backed that accusation by suggesting the Jewish nation ought to be sharing its Iron Dome defensive technology with the very terror group it's fighting."

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/1/un-condemns-israel-us-not-sharing-iron-dome-hamas/#ixzz3AIsYudjb

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:47 PM

Israel Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu lashed out Wednesday at the UN Human Rights Council, accusing it of granting "legitimacy to terror organizations" by investigating Israel for alleged war crimes in Gaza.

"UNHRC gives legitimacy to murderous terror organizations like Hamas and Daash (Islamic State)," he said, accusing the rights body of overlooking "massacres" committed elsewhere in the Middle East in favor of investigating Israel for defending itself against rocket attacks from Gaza.

The UNHRC has selected Prof. William Schabas to head an investigation into Operation Protective Edge. Speaking in a 2013 panel, Schabas clearly revealed his great eagerness to bring about the prosecution of Israel over its actions in Gaza, even if that involved "twisting things and maneuvering" in the international legal arena.

Asked about the possibility of prosecuting Israel for "ecocide" as well, Schabas expressed optimism on gradually enlarging the scope of legal accusations against Israel. "Years ago there were no courts at all," he noted. "When [the term] 'genocide' was invented there was no court at all. There was no court for crimes against humanity, but we have them now. And with a bit of luck and by twisting things and maneuvering we can get them before the courts."

Schabas did not deny Wednesday, in an interview with Israel's Channel 2, that the international community has a double standard regarding Israel's conduct of war.

Channel 2's anchor, Danny Kushmaro, asked Schabas if there is not a double standard involved when that thousands of innocent civilians were killed in Chechnya by the Russians, and by NATO forces in Libya, yet there was "not one international investigation," whereas Israel acted in self defense in Gaza and two investigations have been launched in the course of six years.

"There are a lot of double standards in the international level," answered Schabas. "This is explained by the relative strength of the powers," he added, and noted that some claim there is a double standard in Israel's favor in the UN Security Council, where anti-Israel resolutions are vetoed.

Netanyahu: UN Grants Legitimacy to Terrorists

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:28 PM

Not enough dead Gazans to satisfy Hamas:

Rocket hits near Ashkelon, 2 hours before end of ceasefire

Read more: Rocket hits near Ashkelon, 2 hours before end of ceasefire | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/day-37-london-to-nix-some-arms-sales-to-israel-if-fighting-resumes/#ixzz3AImW8Tn1

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:48 PM

Jim,
No there haven't, but the stream of refugees is constant.
You've just been given a statement on the refugee situation - along with the link - go and read it

Did you provide a link to support your claim that settlements create refugees?
Sorry I can not find it.
Please repeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:18 PM

"Another principle in Hamas' concept of struggle is based on exploiting what it perceives as the Israeli and Western mental weaknesses concerning the value of human life. Hamas perceives that Israel is sensitive to incurring its own casualties (soldiers and civilians), as well as inflicting civilian casualties, which Hamas exploits by concealing itself among civilians and targeting Israeli civilians and soldiers alike. Concurrently, Resistance organizations such as Hamas emphasize their desire to die for their cause (shahada), which they present as a Muslim value. Hamas uses these same values to condone sacrificing civilians on the altar of protecting its people and weapons caches. Moreover, Hamas uses Palestinian civilian casualties and suffering to appeal Western moral values, in order to win over public opinion in the Arab world and in the West. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/uzi-rabi/israel-hamas-ceasefire_b_5673068.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:58 PM

Greggie,

"Bullshit, FKWT."

SOURCE, please.


YOUR saying it is so is not a valid supporting statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:56 PM

"In practical terms it is the Palestinians who are actually being annihilated."



Another one of Jimmy The Stooge's lies.



Other than by Hamas, the Palestinian civilians are not being "annihilated"

Hamas fighters and their Palestinian civilian shields ARE bring killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:49 PM

", the terrorist group is taking pains to clarify it has no intentions of desisting from trying to wipe Israel off the map."
Arutz Sheva (Hebrew: ערוץ שבע‎) (Channel Seven) is an Israeli media network identifying with Neo-Zionism.
ARUTZ SHEVA
""Maps be fucked" -says Christmas So you freely acknowledge that there is no Two State "solution""
I'm saying no such thing - I'm saying that 'maps of convenience ore not worth the paper they are printed on unless they represent the rights of all concerned to live in their traditional homelands.
"Yet it is only the Jews of Palestine that can be openly threatened with annihilation,"]
In practical terms it is the Palestinians who are actually being annihilated.
"been no new or additional refugee camps created since 1965."
No there haven't, but the stream of refugees is constant.
You've just been given a statement on the refugee situation - along with the link - go and read it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:18 PM

The author is aware of "many" and gives examples.
That is enough to show that it is a genuine issue.

Bullshit, FKWT.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:10 PM

Don't even bother Keith, the point is moot, he's just trying to deflect from the issue that reporters were not free to report on Hamas. It's obfuscation and not worthy of a response.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:47 PM

Greg May I answer how many out of how many?
You would have to conduct a survey of journalists in Gaza to find out.
The author is aware of "many" and gives examples.
That is enough to show that it is a genuine issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 11:23 AM

And from Boo: silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:49 AM

Hamas' bloodlust not yet sated:

Even as Israeli representatives are in Cairo to discuss a truce with
Hamas on Tuesday, the terrorist group is taking pains to clarify it has no intentions of desisting from trying to wipe Israel off the map.

Hamas's "military wing," the Al-Qassam Brigades, released a statement presenting its position on the ongoing talks in Egypt.

"The warriors in Gaza are waiting with Allah's help to renew the fighting, or to return to planning the next campaign. There's no escape. Either jihad or planning (for the next jihad)," declared the statement.

The remarks leave no doubts that even in the case of a truce, from Hamas's perspective the lull in fighting would only be an opportunity to rearm for the next terror war on the Jewish state. This facet is particularly concerning in light of reports of Israel agreeing to finance Hamas's officials in Gaza as part of an agreement.

Hamas Clarifies Truce Would Only Be to Plan Next War

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:28 AM

Many journalists

How many? Out of a total number of what?

two tweets

Out of how many, total? And what did all the rest of the twats - oh excuse me - TWEETS have to say?

Lets put this int perspective, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:43 AM

"The matter is one of the fundamental points of all peace talks and has been raised time after time"

The right of return of Jewish refugees has never been raised by anyone.

"Maps be fucked" -says Christmas So you freely acknowledge that there is no Two State "solution"

As for this one from Christmas - "- these are lands settled for millenia by all peoples concerned." - Yet it is only the Jews of Palestine that can be openly threatened with annihilation, it is only the Jews of Palestine that have to move to satisfy the whims of complete and utter prats such as Christmas, Greg F, Steve [Qur'an] Shaw.

C'mon Christmas who was it shut all those refugees up in those refugee camps in Gaza, in the West Bank, in Syria, in Lebanon, in Jordan between 1948 and 1965? Wasn't the Israelis was it? You say that there is a "constant stream of new refugees arriving daily, having been displaced by encroaching settlements thousands of new refugees" - Well you and I know that that is one of your "Fairy Tales" Christmas - I mean where do they put them all as there have, after all, been no new or additional refugee camps created since 1965.

"Your" and the Hamas/Fatah/Palestinian Authority's pet refugees have deliberately been kept in conditions of hopeless, abject poverty by their Arab masters since 1948 because they serve a purpose - they prod the consciences of the richer non-front line Arab nations, they are trotted out to con developed "western" nations into supplying aid, that never seems to do those refugees any good, but the so called "Leaders" of these hapless refugees always seem to have extremely healthy bank balances.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:18 AM

Many journalists working in Gaza during Operation Protective Edge said they were free to broadcast or publish true reports, only after leaving the reach of Hamas. Away from the front, Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati said he was able to report that Hamas, not Israel, was responsible for shelling in Shati, while two tweets from correspondents for The Wall Street Journal that highlighted Hamas operating its headquarters from the Al Shifa Hospital and showing how Hamas rockets, not Israel's likely hit the hospital, were quickly deleted.

The Algemeiner

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:22 AM

" the matter has never been raised."
The matter is one of the fundamental points of all peace talks and has been raised time after time
Each time, the Israelis have offered to allow a few to return if they agree to give up the right to their old homes and settle on whichever toxic rubbish dump Israel chooses to dump them on
They also have to sign an agreement on behalf of all refugees to relinquish any claim on their homeland.
Each time the offer has been made it has been a subject of non-negotiation and immediately withdrawn.
Maps be fucked - these are lands settled for millenia by all peoples concerned.
"The conditions that the people of Gaza have found themselves living under have been entirely the result of choices"
The conditions are those made out of necessity by impoverished people with no choice whatever - for christ sake, there is enough film footage of the overcrowded nature of these camps with their virtually non-existent facilities and the constant stream of new refugees arriving daily, having been displaced by encroaching settlements.
The Bedoins have physically been forced en-masse from their villages by arial-delivered chemical sprays and high powered water cannon - to make room for settlers.
I must have overlooked your hand-painted version the last time I read Th Brothers Grimm collection.
The Gazan weapons are to prevent this from happening as much as possible
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:41 AM

Oh dear Christmas, oh dear!!

There will never be any right of return offered to any Jewish refugee - the matter has never been raised.

There are no recognised borders as the Arabs of Palestine and their neighbouring Arab "friends" and "allies" rejected those proposed by the UN in 1947, decided to fight in 1948, a fight they lost so they had to seek a ceasefire in 1949 - only land "stolen" then was Gaza (By Egypt) and East Jerusalem & the West Bank (By Jordan). While the newly created State of Israel lived up to the terms and conditions of the ceasefire agreement brokered by the UN the Arabs of Palestine and their neighbouring Arab "friends" and "allies" did not - and generally that has proved to have been the pattern since then until today.

Show me any Hamas/Fatah/Palestinian Authority map of the region showing the Two State solution that they say they are fighting for Christmas - I won't hold my breath, because no such animal exists, you know that and I know that - the world and its dog knows that. Unfortunately Christmas as that is the case that leaves the problem with only one solution - let them get on with it, the people of Gaza, the people of the West Bank know that if you attack Israel you in turn will be subjected to retaliation. They also know that the IDF is far, far more capable than any force they can muster - Hamas in their charter call for annihilation of the Jews (Note that Christmas - the Jews NOT the State of Israel) so if they see annihilation as the only acceptable solution then they must recognise that that very same fate might be visited on them, after all what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

The conditions that the people of Gaza have found themselves living under have been entirely the result of choices that they have apparently freely made - they did elect Hamas and then Hamas saw fit to do away with any further elections. The difference in priorities is rather striking if you compare the approach taken in Southern Israel and in Gaza regarding threat to civilian populations:

Israel: Spend money in first creating an effective warning system and building shelters for the population, then link it to an anti-missile defence system.

Gaza : Spend money, time effort and lives smuggling weapons, explosives, rockets and missiles into what must number as being the most densely populated places in the region. Use cement supposedly provided to improve the lot of the civilian population to build underground command centres and refuges for the Hamas "leadership" and to construct "attack" tunnels leading into Israel. Hamas then mount indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks on the population of Southern Israel using the population of Gaza as "human shields" knowing that they have no protection from the retaliation that you know will come.

You tell me Christmas which set of "leaders" values the lives of the populations they are responsible for protecting more? Israeli, or Hamas - Perhaps those casualty figures you keep wittering on about actually tell you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:38 AM

"Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas"
Won't happen until Israel stops being a terrorist state and slaughtering thousands
You have been given the reason for s many having been driven from their rightful home - you are among those who say they have no right to be there.
Are you seriously claimng that the Israelis have persistently refused the right of displaced Palestinians to return
Feckin' Toy Soldier - you are a caricature.
Jim Carroll
Almost all Israeli Jews oppose a literal right of return for Palestinian refugees on the grounds that allowing such an influx of Palestinians would render Jews a minority in Israel, thus transforming Israel into an Arab-Muslim state. In addition to the right-wing and center, a majority of the Israeli left, including the far-left, opposes the right of return on these grounds. The Israeli left is generally open to compromise on the issue, and supports resolving it by means such as financial compensation, family reunification initiatives, and the admittance of a highly limited number of refugees to Israel, but is opposed to a full right of return.[104] The vast majority of Israelis believe that all or almost all of the refugees should be resettled in a Palestinian state, their countries of residence, or third-party countries. The Israeli political leadership has consistently opposed the right of return, but it has made offers of compensation, assistance in resettlement, and return for an extremely limited number of refugees based on family reunification or humanitarian considerations during peace talks.

Israel's first offer of any limited right of return came at the 1949 Lausanne Conference, when it offered to allow 100,000 refugees to return, though not necessarily to their homes, including 25,000 who had returned surreptitiously and 10,000 family-reunion cases. The proposal was conditioned on a peace treaty that would allow Israel to retain territory it had captured which had been allocated to a proposed Palestinian state, and the Arab states absorbing the remaining 550,000-650,000 refugees. The Arabs rejected the proposal on both moral and political grounds, and Israel quickly withdrew its limited offer. At the 2000 Camp David summit 52 years later, Israel offered to set up an international fund for the compensation for the property which had lost by 1948 Palestinian refugees, to which Israel would contribute. Israel offered to allow 100,000 refugees to return on the basis of humanitarian considerations or family reunification. All other refugees would be resettled in their present places of residents, the Palestinian state, or in third-party countries, with Israel contributing $30 billion to fund their resettlement. During this time, most of the original refugees had died without any compensation. Israel demanded that in exchange, Arafat forever abandon the right of return, and Arafat's refusal has been cited as one of the leading causes of the summit's failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:36 AM

C'mon Christmas:

Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas??

1: Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in Palestinian territory?

NB: There are 8 refugee camps in Gaza all set up between 1948 & 1949. While in the West Bank there are 19 of the damn things set up between 1948 & 1965

"The Palestinian Muslims were NOT resettled by the Arabs- they were kept in camps BY THE ARABS and not allowed to become citizens of the country they were in." - beardedbruce

Hell's teeth Christmas the Palestinians in the Refugee Camps were not even allowed to become "free" Palestinians in Gaza by the Palestinians who, even today, are holding them in those camps FFS.

2: Who were those hundreds of Palestinian civilian refugees that you vehemently claim were supposedly killed in a "massacre" invented by the Palestinians and who were supposedly huckled out of Jenin by the IDF? UNRWA after all did account for all but one of the camp's residents didn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:25 PM

News of the Middle East

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

Sorry, Jimmy.

I have YET to see you put forward any argument OTHER than the Israelis are to blame for Hamas killing their OWN civilian Population, and that Hamas should not stop killing Palestinian civilians unless Israel gives them whatever Hamas wants, without Hamas having to stop attacking Israel, or changing it's goal of killing Jews.

And you keep presenting Hamas claims as if they were supported by facts, even when they are proven to be lies, and you refuse to accept ANY Israeli statement a true, even when they are supported by the FACTS.


So maybe YOU and your stooges need to " butt out and let those of us who are prepared to argue do so."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:04 PM

"YOU have stated a number of lies"
You have deliberately lied from day one.
You claim that I and others have supported Hamas yet have refused to produce a singly example of anybody doing so.
Following my offer of a donation to your chosen charity if you did so, you dredged up that I had suggested that Israel should negotiate with terrorists - by your logic, Israel, by negotiating with the Palestinians the number of times it has, has been negotiating with terrorists, so has been "supporting Hamas".
From there your deliberate and somewhat frenetic campaign of lying has escalated.
You have debased these discussions with your hysterical campaign and turned them into slanging matches.
If you insist on keeping them up, I'm happy to retaliate in kind for as long as you do.
So please feel free to do so, I haven't got going yet.
If you lack confidence in your opinions so much that you are unable to put them forward in a reasonable and articulate manner I suggest you butt out and let those of us who are prepared to argue do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM

Greggie boy,

Have you stopped beating your wife, yet??



If YOU don't believe the general, please provide ANY reputable report of it's use BY ISRAEL in this battle.

Video, or physical evidence NOT Hamas claims with no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:56 PM

YOU expect HAMAS to admit killing Palestinian civilians, both directly, by using them as human shields, and by dropping anti-personnel warheads on them?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:51 PM

but did not use controversial white phosphorous this time around, an Israeli general said on Tuesday.

You expected the general to ADMIT using it, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:37 PM

GROUND FORCES COMMAND BASE Israel (Reuters) - Israel fired almost five times more artillery shells into Gaza during the last month of fighting than in the 2008-2009 war there but did not use controversial white phosphorous this time around, an Israeli general said on Tuesday.

Criticized by human rights groups after the previous conflict for posing a burn risk to civilians by shelling the congested Palestinian enclave with white phosphorous to create smoke-screens, Israel said last year it was phasing out those rounds.

In the conflict with Hamas-led Palestinian guerrillas that erupted in July 8, Israeli gunners masked troop advances only with locally made M116 "gray smoke" rounds that contain no white phosphorous, artillery chief Brigadier-General Roy Riftin said.

"Smokescreens based on white phosphorous were certainly not used. We enforced this in an extreme fashion," he said in an interview at ground forces headquarters in southern Israel.

Though Israel reprimanded two senior army officers over a 2009 strike near a U.N. compound in the Gaza Strip that involved smokescreen shells, Riftin saw no legal barrier to using white phosphorous. His corps plans to stock up on U.S.-supplied M825 rounds containing the incendiary chemical in reduced form.

White phosphorous was being shunned, for now, mainly because "it photographs badly", Riftin said - a reference to the distinctive octopus-like clouds the shells formed over Gaza and ensuing showers of potentially lethal embers on civilian areas.

"When you have an alternative, you use the alternative. Had there not been an alternative, I'm convinced there would not have been an issue" with again using white phosphorous, he said.

TROOP SUPPORT

Smoke produced by M116 shells disperses more quickly than white phosphorous smoke, so more of them had to be used, Riftin said, putting the number at around half of some 34,000 artillery rounds his corps fired into the Gaza Strip since July 8, as well as hundreds of camera-guided Tammuz ground-to-ground missiles.

By contrast, only 7,000 artillery shells were fired in the 2008-2009 war. Riftin said that, in the current fighting, heavier shelling with high-explosive rounds was required to dislodge Palestinian guerrillas who, though outgunned, were more effectively dug in and killed 64 Israeli troops in urban combat.
…

Unlike during Israel's 2006 war against Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon, Riftin said his corps had not fired widely destructive cluster munitions or Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) into Gaza, given the dense Palestinian population there.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:13 AM

Bassem Eid is a Palestinian human rights activist who lives in East Jerusalem. This is what he wrote a few hours ago. I thought this Palestinian perspective was worth sharing.


"Most of the Palestinians were against the rocket fire on Israel. They realized that the rockets would not give us anything. They called on Hamas to stop firing, knowing that it had paved the way for the death of its own people.

We knew that Hamas was digging the tunnels which would to lead to our destruction. We knew that three people live on every square meter in Gaza. And Hamas knew that an attack on Israel would lead to mass death, but it's leaders are more interested in their own victories than in the lives of their victims.

Indeed, Hamas depends on death, which gives it power and allows it to raise funds and purchase weapons. Hamas has never been interested in liberating the Palestinian people from the occupation. And Israel will never be able to destroy the infrastructures it has built. Only we, the Palestinian people, can do that.

It was the Gazan residents' responsibility to rebel against the Hamas rule. We knew what they were doing to us, but we let ourselves off easy and allowed it to happen.

Will all this death finally teach us a lesson? I hope so. The lesson is that we must get rid of Hamas and completely demilitarize Gaza. And then open the crossings.

I'm saying this as a loyal Palestinian. I'm saying this because I am concerned about my people's future."


Gazans must get rid of Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 09:19 AM

have already stated that JEWS are not really human, and have NO rights.

Get help, Bullshot - you're really losing what little remains of your tenuous grasp of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:16 AM

Jimmy,

YOU have stated a number of lies- since I now assume ALL that you state is false, I see no reason to reply to yur accusations.

There were a GREATER number of Jewish refugees driven out of Arab lands than there were Palestinian Arabs driven out of Israel.

As in EVERY OTHER CONFLICT with population shifts, the JEWS were resettled, mostly in Israel.

The Palestinian Muslims were NOT resettled by the Arabs- they were kept in camps BY THE ARABS and not allowed to become citizens of the country they were in.

But it is you and your fellow stooges that are keeping the Palestinians in camps now, and killing them with your support of Hamas.

The blood remains on your hands, no matter what lies you make up about other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:13 AM

"Keith, Teribus and bobad will really get off on this:"

WHY?

C'mon Christmas:

Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas??

1: Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in Palestinian territory?

NB: There are 8 refugee camps in Gaza all set up between 1948 & 1949. WHile in the West Bank there are 19 of the damn things set up between 1948 & 1965

2: Who were those hundreds of Palestinian civilian refugees that you vehemently claim were supposedly killed in a "massacre" invented by the Palestinians and who were supposedly huckled out of Jenin by the IDF? UNRWA after all did account for all but one of the camp's residents didn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:10 AM

"Jimmy and his fellow stooges have already stated that JEWS are not really human,"
Where?
Are you sure you're not confusing this with your having demanded the anaihalation of all those Palestinians who won't leave?
How did your domestic abuse trial go by the way?
"No comment"
Seems to be a long-standing habit of yours
"Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas"
Until Israel allows all sides to devise a peaceful conclusion none of this can be settled - but I have little doubt Palestine would agree to an exchange of refugees - why not put it to the Knesset?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:43 AM

Keith, Teribus and bobad will really get off on this:

ORGASMIC

...though it would be fair to read this "accurate clarification" (copied from her Facebook page) first:

I am both saddened and disappointed that my statement about the tragedy of civilian casualties was totally taken out of context. What I said and stand behind is, war is hell and unfortunately civilians are victims of political conflicts. We, The United States, certainly know this as 69 years later we still feel the guilt of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The media, as usual, has decided to only quote the most out of context and inflammatory non sequitur rather than giving an accurate account of what my intentions were behind the statement. Along with every other sane person in this world, I am praying for peace. It is stupid and wrong and I am tired of bearing the brunt of attacks by people who want to sell newspapers or gain ratings by creating a scandal about me that is non-existent.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:35 AM

Jimmy and his fellow stooges have already stated that JEWS are not really human, and have NO rights. THEY are forbidden to defend themselves, and should be blamed for every dead Palestinian, even when Hamas shoots them in the back of the head, or drops anti-personnel rockets on a school.


There are different rules that JEWS are supposed to follow. Just ask Jimmy about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM

Oh BTW I forgot to ask you again Christmas:

1: Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in Palestinian territory?

2: Who were those hundreds of Palestinian civilian refugees that you vehemently claim were supposedly killed in a "massacre" invented by the Palestinians and who were supposedly huckled out of Jenin by the IDF? UNRWA after all did account for all but one of the camp's residents didn't they?

Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and the Palestinian Authority like you Christmas just love to make shit up - That is why I never believe a single word they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:47 AM

Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas??

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:36 AM

Goebbels ain't dead - he's just changed his name
Jim Carroll
.,,.
No comment

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:01 AM

"I think you will find Christmas that the refugee camps in both "
I think yu will find that the refuge situation was result of numerous events.
Totally beside the point - the refusal by the Israeli government to allow any to return is now the direct cause of the refugee situation.
The Palestinian refugee fighter was referring to the Palestinian people as a whole, now and in the past - your reader still not up to explain thisngs to you?
"The population in Auschwitz did not grow or flourish"
Didn't have time to do either.
Your suggestion that the Gazans are "flourishing" under Israeli dominance is as crudely inaccurate as was the propaganda used to persuade the Jews to enter the extermination camps in the first place   
Goebbels ain't dead - he's just changed his name
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:23 AM

"Israel has reduced Palestinian territory to a ghetto, created 5 million refugees and as spent nearly a decade in trying to starve it into submission." - inaccurate shit made up by Christmas

I think you will find Christmas that the refugee camps in both the West Bank and in Gaza were created and set up by the Jordanians and the Egyptians when they invaded Palestine and occupied those territories - Israel had S.F.A. to do with their creation or maintenance.

Now the really funny thing was was that it was discovered by first the Egyptians and Jordanians, then latterly by the Palestinians own "leaders" that these refugees could be used to convince useful idiots such as yourself to dole out huge sums of money that was supposed to go to "helping" these refugees. Of course hardly any of it did, but the Palestinian "leadership" did acquire enormous wealth in the process. But to get this dosh Christmas it meant that the Palestinian "leaders" had to keep these refugee camps going thereby in fact imprisoning Palestinians on Palestinian land - Now you never did answer my question about them doing that.

Had the Israelis actually seriously tried to "starve" the Palestinians into submission then they would have succeeded in that years ago. The Palestinians can get anything they want into Gaza, their preference seems to be weapons, rockets and missiles, all with the help and support of the population of Gaza it would seem. Fine live by the sword then die by it. They want war then let them pay the price for it, just don't keep wittering on and complaining about it just because in your mind the wrong people are dying.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:05 AM

With no indiscriminately targeted rockets roaring off to hopefully {I presume} hit, maim and kill lots and lots of Israeli civilians and no attack tunnels being dug to carry-out raids aimed at capturing Israeli hostages and killing others, WHAT EXACTLY WOULD THIS PALESTINIAN FREEDOM FIGHTER BE DYING FROM?? - boredom.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

The population in Auschwitz did not grow or flourish.
The population of Gaza does, and if they stopped attacking Israel they would have wealth and prosperity too.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:47 AM

"The population grows and flourishes."
The population may grow - an aspect of many poverty stricken countries - it is an obscene lie to claim that it flourishes.
Israel has reduced Palestinian territory to a ghetto, created 5 million refugees and as spent nearly a decade in trying to starve it into submission.
To describe that as "flourishing" it equivalent to passing Auschwitz off as a health camp.
You are totally and rabidly insane in your unqualified support for Israel
That's what all of this is about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:28 AM

As the Palestinian resistance fighter said                                                                                             "WE ARE DYING ANYWAY, WE HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE BUT TO FIGHT"   

No they are not.
The population grows and flourishes.
The alternative to fighting is to have peace and prosperity as well.

Israel is not expanding, and has not for 40 years.
It is still just a tiny sliver of land lost among the vast Arab nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:30 AM

Taking on board all that has been said about "the end justifies the means" attitude of Hamas, the issue of Israeli expansion must also be addressed if peace is to be achieved.

The Palestinians see what they regard as their land, being swallowed up by Israeli settlers and feel completely powerless to stop it, while they are contained within what must feel like a prison.

Resentment about this is surely understandable?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:01 AM

"Oh but they DID opt for war Christmas, the Israeli's offered to extend the 72-hour ceasefire but Hamas decided to resume "fighting"
As things stand, a cease fire without an intention to make it permanent is meaningless - Israel intends to continue this until she has beaten the Palestinians into submission.
As the Palestinian resistance fighter said                                                                                                 

                                                                  "WE ARE DYING ANYWAY, WE HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE BUT TO FIGHT"   

I can understand that.
Little Booboo puts it in a nutshell - "Come out with your hands up - for you, the war is over".
Israel keeps the weapons she has just slaughtered so many innocent people with, Gaza throws away hers.
Israel has a growing arms industry - the fact that she once tried to make Apartheid South Africa nuclear capable has yet to be commented on by the atrocity apologists.
Israel is ruled by extreimst right-wingers and is rapidly becoming a fascist state
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:26 AM

"They did not opt for war - Israel started this as a revenge attack for the death of four boys."

Oh but they DID opt for war Christmas, the Israeli's offered to extend the 72-hour ceasefire but Hamas decided to resume "fighting" – For "fighting" read firing off some missiles from locations deliberately surrounded by civilians in order that Hamas ensures that while they do the "fighting" it is the civilian population that do the dying – Hamas never has nor ever will give a flying f**k about the civilians who live in Gaza, they are only useful for the photo ops that bring in the aid dollars, that is why for 67 years the Arabs have kept their tame refugees in abject poverty.
Christmas could you please point out in the Hamas charter where they state that they will wipe out all Israelis, they do however make many references to wiping out all Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:13 PM

In an August 7, 2014 article titled "We Did Not Win," which was posted on the Amad.ps website, Palestinian columnist Dalia Al-'Afifi challenged Hamas' claim that it won the Gaza war. She wrote that Hamas had shown ignorance of Israel's rationale, had caused innumerable losses and damage to the Palestinians, and had erred in rejecting the Egyptian initiative. She added that the immense destruction in Gaza cannot be called a victory by any standards, and that Hamas' tactics are not likely to bring about an improvement in the Gazans' living conditions, not to mention promote the larger political goals of the Palestinian people.

Palestinian Columnist: Hamas Did Not Win The War, Only Brought Suffering Upon Gazans

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:49 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic...

Amusing, Boo, especially as you, Bullshot & FKWT constantly do the same thing when you can spin it to Israel's favor.

Have you got a mirror in the house?

(See also Caliphate thread)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:38 PM

I guess you are also ignorant of the Geneva Initiative which was an agreement for the demilitarization of Gaza (and the West Bank).It was agreed to by both Israel and the Palestinians.


Defense Characteristics of the Palestinian State

Palestine shall be a non-militarized state, with no armed forces other than
1.
a strong security force, including police forces, marine police, gendarmerie
type forces, internal security organs, intelligence organizations and border
security forces.
The Multinational Force (MF) shall protect the territorial integrity of the
2.
State of Palestine and serve as a deterrent against external attacks.
The following categories of weapons will not be allowed to be purchased,
3.
owned, used or manufactured by anyone in Palestine:
Tanks
a.
Armored vehicles other than up to 400 wheeled armored vehicles that
b.
will be used by the Palestinian Security Force (PSF) and equipped only
with the weapons allowed to be carried by the Palestinian security
force.
Rockets
c.
Guided missiles
d.
Anti-aircraft weapons
e.
Anti-ship weapons
f.
Artillery systems
g.
Mortars
h.
Mines
i.
Machine guns above 7.62 mm caliber.
j.
Laser weapons or other radiating weapons.
k.
Combat aircraft, combat helicopters and UAVs
l.
Armed naval vessels other then light boats (up to 25 tons) armed with
m.
light weapons up to 7.62 mm machine-guns.
Weapons of mass destruction (WMD).
n.
Anti-armor weapons, explosives and grenades of the PSF will be kept under
4.
MF's storage control and will only be used with the MF's permission.
Arrangements will be established by the IVG for the peaceful use of
5.
explosives in quarries. These arrangements will prevent other uses of the
explosives. The implementation of these arrangements will be monitored by
the IVG.
94
The Geneva Initiative
Any proposed changes to this Annex shall be considered by a Coordination
6.
Committee (CC) composed of the two Parties and the MF. If no agreement is
reached in the CC, the IVG may make its own recommendations.
No individuals or organizations in Palestine other than the PSF, the organs
7.
of the IVG, including the MF and the EWS, may purchase, possess, carry or
use weapons except as provided by Palestinian law.
The MF shall monitor and verify compliance with this article. The MF will
8.
keep a registry of all weapons imported to Palestine or manufactured in
Palestine. The PSF will notify the MF about any purchase, manufacture
or import of weapons in Palestine. The MF will perform scheduled and
challenge inspections in Palestinian security installations to verify that the
limitations on weaponry are maintained.
No armed militias will be allowed in Palestine. Political movements
9.
and organizations will not be allowed to purchase, posses, carry or use
weapons.
The PSF mission includes preventing destabilization and upholding the
10.
integrity of and respect for the State of Palestine and shall:
Maintain border control;
a.
Maintain law-and-order and perform police functions;
b.
Perform information gathering and security functions;
c.
Prevent any act of violence;
d.
Conduct rescue and emergency missions; and
e.
Supplement essential community services when necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:30 PM

"just so soon as Israel is demilitarised."

I know that you would love to see that Greg because it would mean the end of Israel and the death of millions of Jews and that would have you coming in your pants. But alas, Greg, that will never happen so I suggest you keep pleasuring yourself while entertaining that fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:25 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic....I suggest you give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:58 PM

Gaza must be demilitarized.

I'm with ya there, Boo - just so soon as Israel is demilitarised.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:28 PM

it was reported in the world press as true.

Is that the same thing as "I read it on the Internet so it must be true", Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:24 PM

"There is only one way to achieve sustained quiet in Israel and build a peaceful and prosperous Gaza. Hamas must be disarmed. Gaza must be demilitarized. And the international community must divorce itself from the romantic notion of Hamas as 'freedom fighters.' " -

Ambassador Ron Prosor at the Unired Nations

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:57 PM

No, Greggie, it was reported in the world press as true. As I was not present in Gaza, I will have to take the witness as telling the truth unless there is some ulterior motive, or the witness has established a pattern of lying like you and your fellow stooges have done.

But you can just have your Hamas friends kill another dozen Palestinian civilians for you to blame on Israel: THAT should ease your mind about having to deal with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:43 PM

So the story WAS made up BS, then, Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:30 PM

Why, Greggie?
You want to make sure that Hamas kills him, too?


You stooges have NEVER complained when HAMAS kills Palestinian civilians- YOU seem to cheer that on.

Nor have any of you stooges YET to admit that a number of the civilian deaths YOU KEEP BLAMING on Israel are from misfired HAMAS anti-personnel rockets, EVEN WHEN THE UN, reporters, and VIDEOS show it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

And what WAS that source, Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:03 PM

"The same source also revealed that tunnel workers usually worked an 8-12 hour day, and were paid the equivalent of between $150-$300, monthly.

The majority of the tunnels were reportedly dug in civilian areas on purpose, to maximize Palestinian deaths during expected Israeli reprisals, and were often beneath homes, chicken coops and pens, around a mile from the Israeli border.

The Gazan source, speaking about the executions themselves. explained:

"They were very cruel. They annihilated some of the diggers because there was a rumor circulating that a few of them had worked with Israel or had been in touch with Israeli civilians. They feared that Israel would know the location of the tunnels and who was involved in their making."

From the Hamas perspective, locating the tunnel entrances in private homes, schools, and mosques could only lead to a win-win scenario.

If Israel couldn't locate the tunnels, then the terrorists could enter and leave Israel at will. However, if Israel discovered the tunnels, their destruction would result directly, or indirectly, in the deaths of civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 09:38 AM

Hamas executed dozens of diggers responsible for its extensive tunnel system in past weeks, fearing the workers would reveal the site locations to Israel, a report on the Mako website's army blog said.

After the tunnels were completed, dozens were reportedly executed to prevent intelligence leaks to Israel.

"Anyone they suspected might transfer information to Israel on the tunnels was killed by the military wing," a different source said. "They were very cruel."

In 2012, a Journal of Palestine Studies article claimed 160 Palestinian children were killed while working on Hamas's tunnel system.

Hamas said to have executed dozens of tunnel diggers

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

Have done - do you think your Israeli friends will or will they think they've done enough for Gaza already?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM

Jim, there was not always a blockade on Gaza.
It started because of Hamas attacks and would end if they stop.

Egypt and Jordan agreed to stop attacking Israel and have enjoyed peace ever since.

Hezbollah in Lebanon has been left alone since their rockets stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM

I've donated....will you?

Emergency Food Aid for Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

Don't be stupid
"Israel calling - Israel calling"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:46 AM

All that would stop when the rockets stop

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM

"Stop rocketing Israel and there would be no violence at all."
Depends on how you define violence
The forcible removal of people from their homes using chemical sprays, armed soldiers and police is violent
The prevention of fisherman going about their trade using military vessels is violent.
The act of preventing people going about their daily lives with military checkpoints is violent
The use of soldiers to facilitate evictions to make room for settlers is violent.
Over the last few weeks protesters have been killed and wounded by police and soldiers for opposing what is going on - violence.
Violence in one form or another has become a part of Palestinian life for several decades
How about proposing that all these things stop, the blockade ended and the walls removed - that will do for a start
What you are proposing is the Palestinians throw down their arms and come out with their hands up
That is not a solution - it is a surrender to a terrorist State.
"Peace and prosperity would replace death and Destruction."
Just like it was before "Arbeit Macht Frei"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:28 AM

I have proposed a solution.
Stop rocketing Israel and there would be no violence at all.
Agree not to import missiles into GAza or tunnel into Israel and the blockade would end.
Peace and prosperity would replace death and Destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 02:26 AM

The images coming out of Gaza are a minute picture of what is taking place there - they represent a tiny tip of a massive iceberg.
By and large they are censored for public consumption - the images of corpses and those injured and maimed are unbroadcastable, so we get quick snatches of patents being rushed into hospitals on trolleys, or covered corpses being lamented over by grieving survivors.
The vast areas of devastation that have been created are so vast that they cannot be photographed without arial equipment, so we are left with brief snapshots and words like "devastation" and "masses of rubble".
If you people who support this murder whinge about these images being presented, I will be fascinated to see your reaction when the overall picture is put up for public view and the full consequences are discussed.   
Your lot has supported this crime without question even before it began - some of you have been advocating that something like this should happen in your claims that Palestinians have no right to their homeland and should be prepared to move out at the behest of an aggressive state.
You describe practical opposition to Israeli terrorism as "terrorism" and verbal opposition as "Antisemitism".
In these discussions, none of you have attempted to rationally discuss a solution to the problems caused by a dying Empire, anxious to rid itself of a troublesome subject, having scratched together a solution that satisfied nobody, and pissing off hurriedly, leaving two opposing people to sort it out or themselves - any attempts to discuss it on this level are either ignored or aggressively sneered at.
You alone blame "the Jews" for for this State terrorism, nobody else here has; it is hardly surprising that the genuine Jew haters of this world are going to take up your offer and use what is happening as a platform in the same way as you have used "Antisemitism" as a substitute for rational argument.
I hope that we don't all have to enjoy the fruits of your endevours.
Carry on cut-'n-pasting Booboo, is seems to be all you are capable of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 06:57 PM

But they really just mean the Israeli government.....right Greg?

A protest in Holland, that was approved by the Dutch government and meant to be a peaceful demonstration against Israel's Gaza operation and against the arrest of an Islamist operative, turned into a terrifying rally of hundreds of ISIS supporters.

The protesters marched in the streets of The Hague uninterrupted while waving the black ISIS flags, calling "Death to Jews" and shouting other slogans calling to murder and fight the West and specifically the United States.


ISIS protesters call 'Death to Jews' in The Hague

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 06:48 PM

And the Jew haters and useful idiots are only too eager to eat it up.

"The images coming out of the Gaza Strip are heart-wrenching. They are also part of a deliberate and sophisticated distortion machine. A veteran journalist takes us inside."

Why Everything Reported from Gaza is Crazy Twisted

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 01:19 PM

Intentional rocket fire earlier today by Hamas causes the closure of Kerem Shalom crossing, through which humanitarian aid passes into Gaza. The barrage of rockets hit the crossing compound directly and It was decided not to endanger the workers at the site and to halt the transfer of goods until further notice.
Once again, Hamas prioritizes terror over the welfare of the people of Gaza.

Rocket attack forces closure of Israel-Gaza border crossing

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM

Hillbillary is a war-mongering fool. Where's the proof that Russia had anything to do with that aircraft's demise. ? On social media ?
False flag.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:42 AM

"....there are more demonstrations against Israel by an exponential amount than there are against Russia seizing part of Ukraine and shooting down a civilian airliner. So there's something else at work here than what you see on TV."

Hilary Clinton

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 06:53 AM

Sad headline from this morning's paper which sims it all up and has echoes from The Maccabees, to Wounded Knee, to Warsaw:
                                                       WE WERE DYING ANYWAY, WHAT ELSE COULD WE DO BUT FIGHT?/font>
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 03:20 AM

"Hamas could have chosen peace. Instead, it made Gaza suffer.
On the other hand, they could have surrendered (ie chosen Israeli peace) and made the Palestinians continue to suffer in the rubble that Israel have reduced their homes to.
If there is to be any justice for this crime against humanity, the least that must happen is the blockade must be lifted, the Berlin Walls must be removed and the Nazi-like persecution ended.
This should take place under close U.N. supervision and done publicly to the world can see that Israel is adhering to U.N. imposed directives.
Real justice would ascertain that Israel should pay reparation for the massive damage they have done and those responsible should be but on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity, but as this latter is unlikely to happen, the first step is to allow the Palestinian people to some sort of human existence.
If Isreal will not agree to this, a worldwide boycott should be put into place until they do.
The U.N. was, rightfully, quick enough to call for a boycott on Russia after the downing of the plane; not to do so here following this massive act of inhumanity would call into question it's role as anything other than a talking-shop for politicians.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:38 PM

No Greggie - I'm applying their definition - you just don't like the way it looks on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:20 PM

No, Boo- don't try to lay your personal bullshit off on an external organization.

You're responsible for your own horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:00 PM

You should say take it up with the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)now called the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA).

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:56 PM

Ad Hominem attacks just make the schoolyard similes more appropriate.

Do take that point up with Bullshot & Boo, Robo, especially RE: the "anti-semite" & "Nazi" bullshit, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 03:40 PM

Hamas could have chosen peace. Instead, it made Gaza suffer.

Even as Israel was completing the process of withdrawing all its settlers and soldiers from Gaza, Hamas carried out a bus-station bombing in Israel. Then, from late 2005 to early 2006, Hamas conducted multiple attacks on the very crossing points that allowed people and goods to move into and out of Gaza. For Hamas, it was more important to continue "resistance" than to allow Gazans to constructively test their new freedom — or to give Israelis a reason to think that withdrawal could work. Some argue that Israel withdrew but imposed a siege on Gaza. In reality, Hamas produced the siege. Israel's tight embargo on Gaza came only after ongoing Hamas attacks.

The Washington Post

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 03:36 PM

Hamas use of the UNRWA as its public face is a war crime, but terrorists commit war crimes without a second thought. But the UN and the UNRWA are complicit in the war crime by allowing Hamas to go on exploiting the UN brand. It's unfortunately commonplace for humanitarian organizations in war zones to collaborate with terrorists and guerrillas in one form or another. But the UNRWA isn't just paying money to Hamas in exchange for being allowed to operate, the way that many groups in war zones do, it has allowed Hamas to turn its operations in Gaza into an extension of the terrorist group.

The UNRWA is Hamas

Subject: RE: Sarcasm
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 03:26 PM

Israel condemns new hostilities between the U.S. and the ISIS forces in Iraq. Israel urges both sides to declare an immediate ceasefire and to begin negotiations in order to settle their conflict. "The targeted bombing of insurgents by the U.S. forces is 'unacceptable'", says an unnamed Israeli source, "because it may endanger the lives of guilty civilians. The U.S. must seek other non-lethal methods in order to achieve the goals that serve no one other than themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 02:49 PM

Ad Hominem attacks just make the schoolyard similes more appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 01:40 PM

It reminds me of the child's complaint: "Dad, Johnny hit me back!"

Well, when you consider the fact that Boo's and Bullshot's mental ages are about 2 to 21/2 years old, this makes perfect sense, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 01:26 PM

Maybe we disagree as to the facts. A definition of 'massacre' is:

"A massacre is a specific incident which involves the violent killing of many people[citation needed] – and the perpetrating party is perceived as in total control of force while the victimized party is perceived as helpless or innocent."

I think the Israelis regard their actions as responsive and defensive in respect to the fact that their population is under general attack.

I think some people are being perceived as antisemitic because they are taking an attitude that Israel's very success in defending themselves has resulted in lopsided casualty counts, therefore 'it isn't fair', and extrapolating this to justify attacks on Jews in Europe.

It reminds me of the child's complaint: "Dad, Johnny hit me back!"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 09:48 AM

So Boo is also an anti-intellectual.

Imagine my surprise. So are MOST demagogues.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM

On bias in the media and phony moral equivalence: What the media overlooks about Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:19 AM

Israeli columnist Dror Feuer jumped at the chance for a long-weekend in London as a break from war in Israel last week, but returned with astute observations about British adoration of Hamas as the underdog, a "one-sided media" that doesn't even pretend to show the other side, and stories of Jews enduring tongue-in-cheek taunts, including an internet meme of 'Death to All Juice.'

The Algemeiner

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 07:59 AM

Too many American and European intellectuals have taken moral relativism to its absurd extreme, falling back upon the 'validity of every narrative' and repeating the mantra that 'every story has two sides.' They treat those who have a clear moral stance as primitive. For them, if you take a moral stand or choose a side in a conflict you must lack the necessary tolerance to "see the other side."

The Betrayal of the Intellectual

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 05:35 AM

"UK is sending an NHS team to help treat Gazan casualties, in Israeli hospitals."
About time it did something after supporting the slaughter with its silence
Now lets here it for a boycott and a worldwide demand that the blockade belifted
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 05:28 AM

UK is sending an NHS team to help treat Gazan casualties, in Israeli hospitals.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 03:41 AM

"In the space of just one week last month, according to Crif, the umbrella group for France's Jewish organisation"
Yes Booboo - we know this and have pointed it out.
We have also pointed out that the rise in Antisemitism is linked to the massacre of nearly 2000 people, the destruction of homes, hospitals, schools.... in fact the deliberate destruction of their means of living life as human beings.
This latest adventure could never have been anything but a military success for Israel, but as far as their reputation as a nation, it has been a massive own-goal - Hamas could never have achieved what Israel just has over three weeks for the Palestinian people .
Linking yet another atrocity to 'The Jews' is as Antisemitic as it gets - the Jewish people have enough to cope with without your adding to it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:32 PM

In very little time a great deal more violence is being exercised on the Yazidis. For those who overuse the word 'genocide' this is a real case:
The Last of the Yezhidis
I'm waiting for someone to start a thread on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:51 PM

Oh, PLEASE, Boo, not more anti-Semites and Nazis - its really getting stale.

I suppose you also feel that the actions of the Israeli government don't contribute to the negative image of Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:55 PM

Antisemitism on rise across Europe 'in worst times since the Nazis'

In the space of just one week last month, according to Crif, the umbrella group for France's Jewish organisations, eight synagogues were attacked. One, in the Paris suburb of Sarcelles, was firebombed by a 400-strong mob. A kosher supermarket and pharmacy were smashed and looted; the crowd's chants and banners included "Death to Jews" and "Slit Jews' throats". That same weekend, in the Barbes neighbourhood of the capital, stone-throwing protesters burned Israeli flags: "Israhell", read one banner.

In Germany last month, molotov cocktails were lobbed into the Bergische synagogue in Wuppertal – previously destroyed on Kristallnacht – and a Berlin imam, Abu Bilal Ismail, called on Allah to "destroy the Zionist Jews … Count them and kill them, to the very last one." Bottles were thrown through the window of an antisemitism campaigner in Frankfurt; an elderly Jewish man was beaten up at a pro-Israel rally in Hamburg; an Orthodox Jewish teenager punched in the face in Berlin. In several cities, chants at pro-Palestinian protests compared Israel's actions to the Holocaust; other notable slogans included: "Jew, coward pig, come out and fight alone," and "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas."

The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:20 PM

"Jimmy, you stupid anti-Semitic bastard liar,"
There you go gain blaming the Jews
""NO, that i what HAMAS has done for years.""
No - by accusing people who criticise Israel of being Anrtisemites - THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE DONE, and if you continue to do so and continue to describe Hamas as "my friends" - I will continue to dredge up some more of your extremist statements such as the ones where you proposed "wiping out Palestinians who would not leave Gaza willingly".
When I run out of them, I shall go on to the information I have been PMd about your reputation as a wife-beater and a drunkard, I really can keep this up just as long as you can.
"Your parents must be so proud of you"
My father, who fought fascism in Spain and Antisemitism on the streets of Liverpool, was always uneasy about the possibility of Zionist Fascism, of which you are a worthy representative - had he lived long enough, I have no doubt whatever that he would hare my views - he certainly influenced them very strongly.
How would your parents feel about your blaming THE JEWS for Sabra Shatila?
Now go and sling your Antisemitic hook and go and try to start a pogrom somewhere else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:02 PM

"And you and your sick mates are the ones who have turned this from an Israeli thing into a "Jewish" one"

Read the Charter of Hamas....idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:54 PM

So, Bullshot: ya ever gonna provide those sources, or just more anonymous C&P crap?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:21 PM

Three more posts from Greggie, and not one word that contributes to the thread…

Typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:17 PM

Now, wait a minute "The Stooge of Scum" ..... wasn't that a Gene Chandler hit ca. 1962?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:15 PM

Yet another bon mot from the steel-trap mind and razor intellect of BullshotBruce. Oh, you silver-tongued devil, you!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 01:08 PM

So speaks the stooge of scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 12:48 PM

Yet more C&P drivel from Bullshot with no source.

It is to ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 12:25 PM

Jimmy, you stupid anti-Semitic bastard liar,

"And you and your sick mates are the ones who have turned this from an Israeli thing into a "Jewish" one"

NO, that i what HAMAS has done for years.


"If those of us who oppose Israeli terrorism are Antisemitic, as you insist on claiming we are, then it is the "Jews" who are to blame."

No, YOU anti-Semitic bastards are the ones who meet the EU definition, and hold Israel to standards you refuse to apply to the rest of the world.


"Only you and yours have attempted to bring "the Jews" into these discussions - you have from the beginning and you continue to do so."

Hamas and the Arab League have done so from the beginning- and YOU anti-Semitic bastards have done so world-wide whenever Israel acts in any way to defend itself.




"Not only have you shamed the Jewish people, but by blaming them for sabra/Shatila, Gaza, and all the other atrocities, you have painted a target on each and every Jewish person."

YOU have done this- and lied continuously about your own posts.


You are lying when you claim to be quoting Hamas "

NO, I have quoted from their own Charter- YOU have lied almost every post you have made.

- this has been your only defence of Israli terrorism apart from your claim that Palestinians are less than human, heve no right to occupy the land they do and "should be driven out in the desert to let their own kind take care of them"

I have never made such a claim- THAT is another of your damned lies. You make up lies, and have proven yourself to be incapable of either supporting your opinions with facts, or providing any evidence that you even try to find out the truth.



You really are a sick, Anti-Semitic, lying bastard.

Your parents must be so proud of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 12:15 PM

"By opting for war Christmas whose "Hearts and Minds" have Hamas won? "
All Hamas has done is to attept to resist Israeli Fascism - the was what it was elected to do - I don't like them, I don't support them neither do i trust the, or any organisation with religious connections - but they are all that is on hand at present.
They did not opt for war - Israel started this as a revenge attack for
the death of four boys.
Israli aggression in driving Palestinian out of their homes to make way for Jewish settlers before Hamas was a twinkle in anybody's eye.
Human shield is propaganda shite put up by politicians who support Israel
Every single resistance fighter in history is guilty of using human shields taking you particular interpretation of the term.
Jewish freedom fighters who carried out assassinations then melted int the crowd used 'human shield' - resistance fighters in wartime France who planned lodged with French sympathisers, their activities and hid their wapons in the homes of civilians used 'human shields', South African freedom fighters opposing Apartheid from within the Townships used 'human shields'.
The alternative Hamas has to fighting from within the community is to set up camp in the middle of the desert and wait for the people they are fighting wipe them out with a couple of bombs         
The term 'Human Shields' has a specific meaning which has been distorted by the Israelis and their supporters to justify mass murder.
In the real sense of the term, both Israel and Hamas have been guilty of it and both have been warned about it.
If you can't see whose hearts and minds have been won by the last three weeks massacres - you've got more shit for brains than I gave you credit for - and that would be some achievement on your part.
"Jimmy boy,"
Brucie girl:
"THEY are the ones who STATE that they want to kill ALL JEWS."
And you and your sick mates are the ones who have turned this from an Israeli thing into a "Jewish" one
If those of us who oppose Israeli terrorism are Antisemitic, as you insist on claiming we are, then it is the "Jews" who are to blame.
Hamas appears to be agreeing with you - or you them
Only you and yours have attempted to bring "the Jews" into these discussions - you have from the beginning and you continue to do so.
Not only have you shamed the Jewish people, but by blaming them for sabra/Shatila, Gaza, and all the other atrocities, you have painted a target on each and every Jewish person.
You are lying when you claim to be quoting Hamas - this has been your only defence of Israli terrorism apart from your claim that Palestinians are less than human, heve no right to occupy the land they do and "should be driven out in the desert to let their own kind take care of them"
To be honest, one of the greatest arguments against Israel is the quality of support it gets from people like you, Keith and Tommy the Would-be Trooper.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 11:32 AM

The United Nations plays a supporting role in every war between Hamas and Israel. U.N. spokesmen routinely issue statements, accusations and denials about everyone's conduct, including their own (most recently they had to account for why they returned rockets, discovered in a U.N. school, to Hamas). Israel was denounced worldwide for an "attack" on a U.N. school said to be housing 3,000 civilians, but it was actually an attack on particular terrorists on the adjoining street.

First, what UNRWA isn't. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees provides humanitarian relief for those who flee their homes worldwide. Even the toughest critics of the U.N. would probably agree that this is a valuable function for the international body. But the Palestinians get their own, separate refugee agency: UNRWA.

The UNHCR defines a refugee as someone who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable ... or ... unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country." Since its foundation, the UNHCR has helped to resettle some 50 million people.

UNRWA, by contrast, defines a refugee as someone "whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict" and their descendants .

When five Arab nations attacked the nascent Jewish state in 1948, refugees flowed in both directions. About a half-million Arabs fled Jewish areas, and about the same number of Jews fled Arab lands. No separate U.N. agency was created to care for Jewish refugees. They were absorbed by Israel. The previous year, after the partition of India, some 14.5 million refugees fled in both directions between India and Pakistan. Their descendants are not, obviously, considered refugees, nor are the descendants of Ugandan, Cypriot, Hungarian, Ethiopian, Sri Lankan, Congolese, Bosnian, Angolan and countless other refugees over the past 60 years.

Imagine if the American loyalists who fled to Canada after our revolution had been supported by an international agency whose charter specified that they and their descendants would remain refugees until they were able to return to an America governed from London?

Though the normal course is for refugee numbers to spike during conflict and then decline with time, because of UNRWA's unique definition, the number of Palestinian refugees has expanded from half a million to more than 5 million.

While UNHCR is currently attempting to serve 50 million refugees, asylum seekers and internally displaced persons, it employs only 7,600 relief workers. UNRWA employs 29,000, only 200 of whom are not Palestinians. The per capita budget of UNRWA, underwritten to a large extent by the U.S., is twice that of UNHCR.

Syria alone has generated 2.5 million refugees in the past three years. Seventy-five thousand refugees have fled Libya since February. The funds used to keep Palestinians in permanent mendicant status are badly needed elsewhere.

Every Palestinian "refugee" is guaranteed a free education up to age 15 courtesy of the United Nations. Controversies have flared from time to time when UNRWA has been accused of using inflammatory textbooks and teaching materials that encourage hatred of Jews and Israelis. Credible reports have shown UNRWA textbooks that feature maps without Israel. UNRWA has hosted summer camps called "Camp Jihad."

There are many reasons for Palestinian intransigence on accepting a two-state solution to their predicament. It was offered three times: first in 1948 with the U.N. partition plan, next in 2000 at the Taba negotiations, and again in 2008 with the Olmert plan. The original refusal to share the land with Jews was a mistake, founded on the belief that the Arab nations could defeat the nascent Israel. But since then the Palestinians have become infantilized by 66 years of victim status. UNRWA has run their schools, clinics, hospitals, banks, construction projects, after-school programs, immunization drives and emergency services.

Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon eventually gave up the fantasy of destroying Israel. Perhaps if the UNRWA umbilical cord were snipped, Palestinians would be readier to face reality as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:51 AM

"Three days after the mangled body of a senior Hamas official was found among the ruins of the Shejaiya neighborhood in the Gaza Strip, conflicting reports emerged on Thursday regarding his mysterious death, a report by the Times of Israel said.

Hamas claimed that Ayman Taha, a former spokesman for Hamas in Gaza, was killed in an Israeli airstrike that "targeted him in the apartment where he was with several others in Gaza City," according to a report by i24news, an Israeli news agency. However, a report by Al-Quds, a Palestinian daily, reported that Taha was executed by a Hamas firing squad earlier this week for maintaining contacts with the intelligence services of Egypt and other Arab countries.

Taha was reportedly killed by several shots to the head and chest, reports said, citing local hospital officials, adding that the incident was banned from being published by Hamas until Thursday, when the information was released to the public. Hamas said on Thursday that it had executed several Palestinians suspected of spying for Israel.

"Spies were executed after they were caught red-handedly informing on the whereabouts of the resistance (or) disrupting the work of resistance men and defusing ambushes prepared against the enemy," a Hamas security service member said, i24news reported, citing Al-Arabiya.

Taha was reportedly the son of one of Hamas' founders and was a well known spokesman for the Palestinian cause before his arrest by Hamas in February on suspected corruption charges, for allegedly buying villas in Gaza with embezzled money. Taha was then held in a Hamas detention facility in the Gaza Strip, with Hamas stating that the arrest was due to "financial issues" while insisting that his imprisonment was an internal matter and was not related to security concerns with "enemies."
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:42 AM

By opting for war Christmas whose "Hearts and Minds" have Hamas won? As far as Hamas is concerned the "civilian" population of Gaza don't count apart from being useful to them as human shields and cannon fodder.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:38 AM

International media outlets, including The New York Times and the BBC, have raised serious questions regarding Gaza civilian casualty figures as recorded by health officials both in the Strip and abroad.

The outlets maintain that the hard data does not support the notion that the Israel Defense Forces is engaged in "indiscriminate" killing of unarmed residents in the Palestinian enclave, as was suggested by several international leaders over the past month.

Citing figures released by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, the BBC's head of statistics Anthony Reuben found that the number of civilian men killed in the fighting outnumbered the number of women by a factor of nearly 3.5:1. According to the UN, 725 men were killed in the conflict as opposed to 214 women. When the 216 confirmed "members of armed groups" were included in the figures, the disparity grew even larger. Israeli military officials said 750-1,000 Hamas and other gunmen had been killed in the fighting as of Tuesday, August 5.

"If the Israeli attacks have been 'indiscriminate,' as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women," Reuben noted dryly.

IDF indiscriminately killing in Gaza? Data says no

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AqhTaNadeGV6H.zY6_ESqKKbvZx4?p=hamas+rockets+shrapnel&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-74

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:06 AM

"Source for 07 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM , Boo??"

"A little-known division of the corporation called BBC Trending says that many of images being shared on social media under the #GazaUnderAttack hashtag are in fact several years old, and in some cases from different conflicts."

Doh!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:03 AM

Jimmy boy,

"you have all linked it to being Jewish - O Bearded One is particularly vehement on the point."


Actually, I merely quote from your dear friends in Hamas- THEY are the ones who STATE that they want to kill ALL JEWS.


YOU are supporting them, therefore YOU are accepting that goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 07:59 AM

Thus unencumbered, UNRWA has ensured its own survival by transforming itself into the patron of Palestinian grievance, conferring refugee status down the generations, an unusual practice. The agency's website reports that since 1950 its roster of registered refugees has grown from an original 750,000 to 5.3 million—a sevenfold increase, all eligible for the UNRWA dole. For the Palestinians, this has been ruinous, fostering within an otherwise enterprising culture a crippling sense of entitlement and dependency.

The U.N. Handmaiden of Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 07:57 AM

"So tell us all Christmas what bits of the Hamas Charter has he got wrong or misrepresented"
Didn't say he had.
Brucie, you, Keith, Mike..... and Israel, have all represented opposition to the terrorist behaviour as 'Antisemitic' - you have all linked it to being Jewish - O Bearded One is particularly vehement on the point.
In the light of this deliberate policy, is hardly surprising that the victims of Israeli terrorism should see 'The Jews' as being the cause of their suffering.
I have made my abhorrence of Antisemitism clear - there is little, if any evidence of it in these discussions, but we remain 'Antismeites' - if that's the way you see it, it must be a 'Jewish' problem rather than one of a rogue State which has betrayed the Jewish people.
I suggest you take a look at yourselves for the causes of the spread of Antisemitism.
"Tell us Christmas why Hamas has once again opted to fight"
Just told you, please try to pay attention you bleeding oik - they see little point of returning to the ghetto without some guarantees that things will change.
They couldn't hope to win the fighting war, but haven't they just won the battle for hearts and minds.
It would be a betrayal for them to allow things to return back to where things were.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

Jimmy boy,

"Who knows, maybe Israel will listen to your suggestion that "all Muslims are less than human" and they should "push on in Gaza and either drive them into the desert or wipe out the ones who won't go".
Do you really believe that statements like that are representative of the Jewish people?"



I made no such suggestions, and you are a damned liar for saying so.

Since YOU are the one making these statements, I would have to ask if you were Jewish to answer your question

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 07:33 AM

A Muslim Brotherhood leader in Kuwait, Tareq Al-Suwaidan, said Muslims "hate" the sons of Zion. He called for Muslim mothers to nurse their infants on this hatred and to plant it in Muslim children's "souls," so that the new generation "will erase the (sons of Zion) from the face of the earth." Last week, Palestinian Media Watch documented a similar Hamas sermon calling for the extermination of Jews.

Death for Allah is our most exalted wish!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM

So tell us all Christmas what bits of the Hamas Charter has he got wrong or misrepresented?

Any further down the track on getting someone, anyone from Hamas to tell you the borders of Israel in this Two State solution these wankers say they fighting to achieve? According to their founding charter there aren't any.

Tell us Christmas why Hamas has once again opted to fight, with the obvious backing of the population of Gaza? I am sure by now that both Hamas and the population of Gaza know that if you chose to go to war then people are going to die, in their case lots of them - but hey - their choice they were offered peace and rejected it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:15 AM

"Why They Fight: Hamas' Too Little Known Fascist Charter"
From 'The America Interest' magazine edited by Adam Garfinkle.
"Garfinkle was a speechwriter for both George W. Bush's Secretaries of State, Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice. He was editor of The National Interest and left to edit The American Interest magazine in 2005."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:07 AM

"Greg F. - Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:37 PM

Source for 07 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM , Boo??

HERE:

#BBCtrending: Are#GazaUnderAttack images accurate?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:02 AM

As reported by the BBC this morning:

"The Palestinian militant organisation Hamas has rejected any extension of the three-day ceasefire in Gaza, which expired on Friday morning.

It said that Israel had failed to meet its demands. Key among these is the re-opening of Gaza Harbour to shipping.

Two rockets fired from Gaza hit southern Israel three hours before the three-day ceasefire was due to expire, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said.

The IDF accused "terrorists" of violating the ceasefire.

The rockets fell on open ground and caused no casualties, the Israeli army said early on Friday.

Hamas has denied firing them.

A Hamas military wing spokesman earlier called on Palestinian negotiators holding indirect talks with Israeli negotiators in Cairo to refuse any ceasefire extension unless its long-term demands were met.

The spokesman said his organisation was ready for "a long war".

At a rally held in Gaza yesterday support for Hamas amongst the population of Gaza was described by the Beeb as massive. Well Hamas has made the same decision that Arab and "Palestinian" leaders have made time and time again since 1947 - they have chosen war over peace - the Hamas spokesman says his organisation was ready for "a long war". I am sure he will get one as will the people of Gaza who are cheering these clowns on - so perhaps after 67 years it is time to finish it, the Arabs of Palestine do not want peace, they never have, so give them the war they crave and bay for in front of the medias cameras. It will not go well for them, exactly as the Leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Kuwait, Tareq Al-Suwaidan stated to the people of Gaza on Al-Aqsa TV on August 1st 2014:

"You received the death you wanted. We have no problem with death. We are not like the children of Israel".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:37 PM

Source for 07 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM , Boo??

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:28 PM

Leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Kuwait, Tareq Al-Suwaidan to Gaza civilians: "You received the death you wanted. We have no problem with death. We are not like the children of Israel".

Al-Aqsa TV, August 1, 2014.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM

The BBC has admitted that pictures of alleged Israeli airstrikes on Gaza and their aftermath may be inaccurate.

A little-known division of the corporation called BBC Trending says that many of images being shared on social media under the #GazaUnderAttack hashtag are in fact several years old, and in some cases from different conflicts.

In one case, a Twitter user posted multiple images with the caption: "This is not a matter of religion. This is a matter of humanity #GazaUnderAttack" – except one of the images was from Syria last month, and another from Baghdad in 2007.

One 16-year-old who shared another inaccurate image told BBC Trending: "I didn't actually know that the picture was recycled," before trying to justify it by saying: "I guess I just used it as an illustration – people don't need to take it as a literal account. If you think of bombs going off that's pretty much what it looks like."

Abdirahim Saeed of BBC Arabic said: "This misuse of pictures on social media is not particularly unique to this particular hashtag. We've seen this before in Syria, in Iraq, and you've got to keep an eye on who you're following, [and ask yourself] where did this picture come from?"

The BBC itself, however, is not immune from sharing inaccurate images. Journalist Tom Gross, who monitors Middle Eastern media, added: "What the BBC item doesn't point out is that some of the most senior BBC correspondents in the Middle East, such as Jon Donnison have been responsible for sending out these inaccurate photos on their BBC twitter feeds!"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:17 PM

Why They Fight: Hamas' Too Little Known Fascist Charter

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:49 PM

Just an observation -- Can we have less of the patronising & belittling "Little Booboo", please, Little Jimbo?

Where have your manners gone? & it's a poor substitute for rational argument.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:27 PM

"YOUR friends are killing Jews BEFORE there was even a Gaza attack."
you really don't get it do you - Antisemitism has always been with us - shits like you blaming Jews for Israeli atrocities and war crimes just keep it alive.
Fy family were fighting fascism on the streets of Liverpool, only to be left with shits like you pissing on the memory of six million dead.
Who knows, maybe Israel will listen to your suggestion that "all Muslims are less than human" and they should "push on in Gaza and either drive them into the desert or wipe out the ones who won't go".
Do you really believe that statements like that are representative of the Jewish people?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:25 PM

"the brains or sense that God gave slime molds,"


So THAT'S why Greggie is so jealous of slime molds!

He missed out, and wants to be up there with those slime molds.

Too bad he has not yet been successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:57 PM

Blog was by

"The former Senior Producer of CNN's Jerusalem bureau for twenty plus years, Izzy Lemberg is a veteran international television news producer and recipient of the prestigious Edward R. Murrow award. "


I think HE has more right to comment on journalism than you or any of the other stooges do.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM

According to Hamas. Greggie boy?

Oh, Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:39 PM

According to CAMERA. Boo?

Oh, Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:56 PM

Jimmy boy,

"March 2012 a shooting spree in the south of France targeting French soldiers and Jewish students left seven people dead, including three schoolchildren and a young rabbi. "


NOTE THE DATE.

YOUR friends are killing Jews BEFORE there was even a Gaza attack.

You must be SO proud of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:47 PM

I have been a journalist for a quarter of a century. I have covered terrorism both in Israel and internationally. I reported on the war in the Balkans, on upheavals in Russia since the fall of the Communism, on peace negotiations between Israel, the Palestinians and the Syrians. I have covered the synagogue bombings in Istanbul and I covered the hotel bombing in Taba, Egypt in 2004.

In the early days of what looks like a ceasefire that may hold in Israel, and in the days before war crime charges will most certainly be filed against Israel, I am more worried than ever that my profession has been compromised; some would even say that journalism is dead.

It was during the reporting on the Second Intifada in Israel that I began to notice an erosion of the basic tenets of journalism. Journalists became vehicles for the Palestinian narrative of injustice rather than simply impartial observers of a complex conflict.

In the current war, international media coverage makes it appear to viewers as if every morning Israelis wake up and ask ourselves – how many Palestinian children shall we kill today? Colonel Richard Kemp, the former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, put it this way:

    To suggest that military incompetence is the only explanation for civilian deaths other than deliberate mass murder reveals a breathtaking but unsurprising ignorance of the realities of combat.

    Although rarely allowed to complete so much as a single sentence, Israeli attempts to explain IDF targeting policies are inevitably dismissed as laughable fabrication.

In my view, there has been no real reporting in this conflict. While everybody agrees that there are Palestinian civilian casualties – the ratio of 70 to 80 percent remained unchanged during the month long war — how is this possible? Where are the Hamas militant casualties?

Michael J. Totten writes compellingly of inflated and inaccurate numbers in The World Affairs Journal.

    Analyses of the casualties listed in the daily reports published by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, a Gaza-based organization operating under Hamas rule, indicate that young males ages 17 to 30 make up a large portion of the fatalities, and a particularly noticeable spike occurs between males ages 21 to 27, a pattern consistent with the age distribution typically found among combatants and military conscripts.

In the international media however, we have not seen photos of these men, many of whom are likely Hamas militants, just countless pictures of Palestinian children.

Media reporting on European views of the crisis in Gaza are complex and seen almost solely through media bias and exploitation of previously held ideas about underdogs, anti-Semitism and emotion versus reason.

If there is a crisis in journalism, the Arab-Israeli highlights the crisis as never before.

Former Israeli Ambassador to the US Michael Oren was interviewed on CNN after Ron Dermer, the current Israeli Ambassador to the US complained that CNN's coverage was focused on pictures of Palestinian children, while not mentioning the UN school that housed rockets.

As CNN asked Oren about his views on media bias, his picture was minimized while the entire screen was filled with pictures of Palestinian children – from the same loop we had already seen. Even an after-the-fact interview to discuss media bias…contained media bias. The images shown have an obvious and not so subliminal affect on viewers. See the interview here, queued up to the section to which I refer:

According to the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, in an L.A. Times slideshow of more than 75 photographs from the conflict, there's not a single image of a Hamas fighter.

Again, according to Richard Kemp:

    …the Palestinian body count is vital to Hamas's propaganda war that aims to bring international pressure on Israel and incite anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic hatred around the world.

Either journalists are no longer observing as impartially as possible or they are censoring themselves — or even being censored. In any case, the end result is that journalists, wittingly or unwittingly are serving Hamas's propagandist aims. This is not journalism.

Is Journalism Dead?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:22 PM

"Across Europe, the conflict in Gaza is generating a broader backlash against Jews, as threats, hate speech and even violent attacks proliferate in several countries."
See what happens when you blame Israeli terrorism on the Jewish people
"Another asshole who thinks that criticism of the Israeli government is "anti-Semitism""
Acttually Greg, may not have read it properly, but she appears to make a number of interesting points - read her CV
Little Booboo may have come up with something interesting when he isn't drawing his support from 'White Supremist', 'Muslim Watch' and 'Gatestone'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:21 PM

More of what the stooges must think of as "fun and games".

"n March 2012 a shooting spree in the south of France targeting French soldiers and Jewish students left seven people dead, including three schoolchildren and a young rabbi. "

Of course Greggie wants to see a higher body count to really get his rocks off.



FRANCE'S leaders are increasingly worried about the apparent rise of anti-Semitism in their country. Yesterday afternoon François Hollande, the president, called an urgent meeting of Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Buddhist leaders to discuss the outbreak of anti-Jewish violence over the weekend when demonstrators against Israel's actions in Gaza ran wild.

On a hot Saturday in the predominantly Muslim neighbourhood of Barbès, not far from the Gare du Nord, a big railway station in Paris, a crowd that swelled to around 3,000 ignored an official ban on demonstrating. They set fire to an Israeli flag, bashed in shops and threw stones at serried ranks of riot police, 15 of whom retired wounded.

On Sunday afternoon the violence spilled over into Sarcelles, a suburb with a large Sephardic Jewish population. A Molotov cocktail was launched at the main synagogue and a kosher shop was burnt down. Shop windows were smashed; several stores were looted; flames flared fitfully. Tear gas hung heavy in the air as riot police scattered the thugs, firing rubber bullets. Four policemen ended up in hospital. Permitted pro-Palestinian demonstrations elsewhere passed off peacefully, prompting some to say that banning the demonstrations in Paris was provocative as well as contravening the right to free speech. But a week earlier several Paris synagogues had been targeted by protesters shouting "Death to the Jews".

After the meeting with the president yesterday, Joël Mergui, president of the Jewish Central Consistory of France, paused for a moment on the steps of the Elysée palace to shake hands with Dalil Boubakeur, rector of the Grand Mosque of Paris. But fixing the toxic mix of economic marginalisaton and growing radicalisation among many Muslims that provides the backdrop to such episodes will take more than a handshake.

In March 2012 a shooting spree in the south of France targeting French soldiers and Jewish students left seven people dead, including three schoolchildren and a young rabbi. The perpetrator, Mohammed Merah, a French criminal of Algerian descent, claimed connections with al-Qaeda. On May 24th of this year, four people were shot dead in the Jewish Museum of Belgium. Mehdi Nemmouche, a Frenchman of Algerian origin who is believed to have fought with Islamist rebels in Syria, was arrested for the crime, which he denies committing. Later that evening, two Jews in traditional dress coming out of the synagogue in Créteil, near Paris, were attacked by thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:19 PM

Bullshot, you really don't have the brains or sense that God gave slime molds, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:39 PM

But I should KNOW that Greggie thinks " throwing firebombs at the city's new synagogue" is just good old fun.

Next he will get out the white sheets and hemp rope, and find a tree, just to have fun with someone who is " Black, and a Democrat".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:31 PM

BERLIN — Across Europe, the conflict in Gaza is generating a broader backlash against Jews, as threats, hate speech and even violent attacks proliferate in several countries.

Most surprising perhaps, a wave of incidents has washed over Germany, where atonement for the Holocaust and other Nazi crimes is a bedrock of the modern society. A commitment to the right of Israel to exist is ironclad. Plaques and memorials across the country exhort, "Never Again." Children are taught starting in elementary school that their country's Nazi history must never be repeated. Even so, academics say the recent episodes may reflect a rising climate of anti-Semitism that they had observed before the strife over Gaza.

This week, the police in the western city of Wuppertal detained two young men on suspicion of throwing firebombs at the city's new synagogue; the attack early Tuesday caused no injuries. In Frankfurt on Thursday, the police said, a beer bottle was thrown through a window at the home of a prominent critic of anti-Semitism. She heard an anti-Jewish slur after going to the balcony to confront her assailant, The Frankfurter Rundschau reported. An anonymous caller to a rabbi threatened last week to kill 30 Frankfurt Jews if the caller's family in Gaza was harmed, the police said.

The string of incidents comes after Chancellor Angela Merkel condemned anti-Semitic chants from pro-Palestinian demonstrators and President Joachim Gauck called on Germans to "raise their voices if there is a new anti-Semitism being strutted on the street."

But even as the police have clamped down on demonstrators, banning slogans that target Jews instead of Israeli policies, a spike in violence has spread fear among Jews, not only in Germany but also in other European countries.

More Jews have begun leaving France in recent months, following anti-Semitism that has spilled onto the streets since the start of the Gaza conflict almost a month ago. While most of the pro-Palestinian demonstrations have been peaceful, a small number of violent protesters, many of them young Arab men, has targeted Jewish businesses and synagogues.

French authorities have strongly condemned the violence and, citing public-safety concerns, have refused to authorize a small number of pro-Palestinian demonstrations. Others have spoken of a need to counter anti-Semitism among certain segments of the country's Muslim youth.

Prime Minister Manuel Valls spoke last week of a "new," "normalized" anti-Semitism. "It blends the Palestinian cause, jihadism, the detestation of Israel and the hatred of France and its values," he told the National Assembly.

Even in historically tolerant Italy, anti-Semitic smears have appeared on the streets of Rome. Jewish shop windows in several neighborhoods were defaced this week with swastikas and tags reading "Torch the synagogues" and "Jews your end is near." Police suspect that right-wing extremists, possibly along with pro-Palestinian activists, carried out the acts.

Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main story
Riccardo Di Segni, the chief rabbi of Rome, said he believed that the threats were linked to tensions in the Middle East. "There is cyclically a common thread running between the dramatic tensions in the Middle East and the increase of anti-Semitic episodes," he said.

In Austria, a preseason soccer match between the Israeli team Maccabi Haifa and Germany's Paderborn was moved to a more secure location last weekend after a group of youths bearing Palestinian and Turkish flags stormed the field and attacked players during a previous match.

Prominent newspapers, politicians and popular stars in Austria and Germany have responded to the anti-Jewish outburst with a campaign called "Raise Your Voice," in support of their countries' Jewish communities. But Samuel Salzborn, a professor of political science at Göttingen University, does not believe that the effort has shifted public opinion.

"The official line of the German government is happily, clearly against anti-Semitism, but that is resulting in far too little," Mr. Salzborn said. "There is a startling indifference in the German public to the current display of anti-Semitism."

To many of the more than 100,000 Jews in Germany, the outburst of anti-Semitism since the conflict flared in Gaza has a troubling undertone and has stirred especially painful memories. The Central Council of Jews in Germany has received hundreds of calls from members asking whether they should pack their suitcases and leave the country.

"I have not heard that for many years," said Dieter Graumann, the council president. "When calls for Jews to be gassed, burned and murdered are bawled on the streets of Germany, that no longer has anything to do with Israel's politics and Gaza. It is the most abhorrent form of anti-Semitism."

Academics who study anti-Semitism say the acceptance of disparaging remarks about Jews has become increasingly common in the educated middle class over the past two decades. Especially on social media, where hashtags such as #HitlerWasRight have appeared, there has been a significant jump in slurs against Jews.

Monika Schwarz-Friesel, a cognitive scientist at Technical University, has spent 10 years tracking anti-Semitic comments from educated Germans in letters to editors, in Internet chat rooms and on social media. She said such comments in public forums had served as kindling for the most recent outbreak.

"Violence always starts in the mind," Ms. Schwarz-Friesel said. "Attacks like that on the synagogue in Wuppertal are not just pulled out of thin air."

Carola Melchert-Arlt, an elementary school principal in Berlin and mother of three, said she felt afraid for the first time in her decades of living in Germany. She said her mother had asked her to stop wearing a Star of David, a family heirloom from her grandmother's bat mitzvah, around her neck.

Friends have taken down their mezuzas, Ms. Melchert-Arlt said, and she no longer stifles a smile when a fellow Jew wonders if they are really welcome in Germany.

"We have all always felt the latent anti-Semitism here," Ms. Melchert-Arlt said. "But what we have experienced in recent weeks and days, not only in Germany but across Europe, is a prevailing mood of outward anti-Jewish sentiment in the streets."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:26 PM

I'm disgusted by the Jew-hatred that some Europeans have shown in their protests against Israel

Another asshole who thinks that criticism of the Israeli government is "anti-Semitism". Who cares.

Next Boo will be flogging the Nazi nonsense again.

Also, who cares.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 11:00 AM

"I'm disgusted by the Jew-hatred that some Europeans have shown in their protests against Israel"
ISRAEL'S USE OF ANTISEMITISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 10:35 AM

"I'm disgusted by the Jew-hatred that some Europeans have shown in their protests against Israel. It's prompted me to reflect on a moment when I lacked the moral courage to speak up. In this spirit, I'm posting a video that's never been shown before. I welcome your comments."

Irshad Manji: "I knew it was wrong, and I said nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:53 AM

"They are shameful, despicable animals!"
Aren't they just?
Mosques attacked in Gaza:
*118 mosques have been shelled, of which 81 were partially damaged while 37 were fully destroyed".
NOT TO MENTION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

Hamas terrorists desecrating and disrespecting Churches by firing rockets from them. They are shameful, despicable animals!

Gaza Bishop: Hamas Used Church to Fire Rockets

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:03 AM

"It should have read as asking what point he was making UP"
Much appreciated Muskie
Jim Carroll
..,

Yes. teehee. LoL.

But it was not, as that egregious Mr Mather claimed, a 'grammatical' point in any sense. He should go back to the dictionary which I daresay he has stashed away somewhere & check precisely what 'grammar' is.

& before he objects to my reading his posts again, I will reiterate that that is a matter for me, not for his pathetic unsolicited little yay-or-nays. He really is a pompous, prescriptive, foolish, foulmouthed fellow, innit!

Adieu -- for the nonce

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:11 AM

Hamas' war strategy works like this:

- Episodically attack Israel's civilians in such as way as to provoke a counter-attack.

- Hide behind Palestinian civilians (preferably in crowded neighborhoods, schools, and hospitals), while encouraging them, even forcing them, to stay, guaranteeing that the return fire wounds or kills civilians and damages civilian structures.

- Encourage the Western news media to play up the civilian suffering, play down Hamas' role in it, and accuse Israel.

- Conjure a firestorm of outrage around the world that eventually pressures Israel into desisting from counteroffensive measures.

- Survive to reap the propaganda victory and prepare the next round of hostilities.

- Repeat, with each exchange hurting Israel more, and each round of international news coverage further savaging the Jewish State's international reputation.

No matter what the Israeli response, the Hamas strategy is win-win. If the Israelis abort a strike to avoid civilian casualties (as they often do), then Hamas is spared the blow; if an Israeli strike causes civilian casualties, Hamas has dead babies to parade before the cameras. And eventually, the bloodletting will get so bad, the pictures so damning, that Israel will stop. Hamas' endgame goals, at least at this stage of its asymmetrical war, are actually threefold: tie Israel down with constraints on its use of power, delegitimize and demonize it in the eyes of the world, and stir an aggressive "Muslim Street" in the West, where genocidal chants can lead to pogroms against the Jews worldwide.

This time, however, this "dead baby" strategy, despite a pedigree of decades, has become increasingly apparent to the observant, perhaps because Hamas has resorted to ever-more obvious tactics to victimize their own people: storing its weapons and firing them from residential areas, hospitals, schools and mosques and even, hiding its leaders under Shiffa hospital. Asked about this, UN official John Ging readily admits: "Yes the armed groups are firing their armed rockets into Israel from the vicinity of UN facilities and residential areas, absolutely." Indeed, in some cases, while journalists speak to the camera, often following Hamas' script, Jihadis fire rockets right nearby—live, as it were.

The pattern consistently demonstrates what one Gazan from Tal Awad described to an Italian journalist in 2009 during Operation Cast Lead: "They wanted the [Israelis] to shoot at the [the civilians'] houses so they could accuse them of more war crimes." The importance of these rockets is not where they're aimed, but whence they're fired. They're a reverse target, designed to create the carnage that will rouse Western indignation.

How the media helped Hamas in the third Gaza War

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:03 AM

"Britain's Anti-Israel Charades"
Dis that cut-'n- paste actually say anything other than a leading financial newspaper objects to Baroness Warsi is in danger of putting at risk the profits of some arms dealers and financeers
Were's me hankie
"It should have read as asking what point he was making UP"
Much appreciated Muskie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:48 AM

Anti-Israel posturing is for many people the cheapest route to the appearance of virtue. So it is with British Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg and the Tory peer Baroness Sayeeda Warsi. Both have in recent days called for the suspension of U.K. arms-export licenses to the Jewish state. The Baroness took the further step on Tuesday of resigning her post as a Foreign Office Minister over David Cameron's "morally indefensible policy" on Gaza, as she put it in a letter to the Prime Minister.

The usual media suspects frame this minor rebellion as a heavy blow against Mr. Cameron: As the Liberal Democrat leader, Mr. Clegg is the junior partner in the coalition government; Baroness Warsi, meanwhile, is said to represent a groundswell of Tory discontent over Britain's mildly pro-Israel policy.

All that may be, but Mr. Clegg's and the Baroness's gesture politics also expose their own inconsistent moral outrage.

Britain's Anti-Israel Charades

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:45 AM

Jim, may I correct your grammar?

You asked braidedbeardedbruce what point he making. It should have read as asking what point he was making UP.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:41 AM

Not enough dead to satisy the blood lust of Hamas:

The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas's armed wing, said it will start firing as soon as the ceasefire ends on Friday at 8 a.m., Israeli news site Walla reported, citing the Hamas news agency Al-Risala.

Hamas deputy leader Mussa Abu Marzouq, part of the Palestinian delegation holding talks in Cairo, denied overnight there was yet any agreement.

"There is no agreement to extend the ceasefire," he wrote on Twitter.

"Any news about the extension of the truce is unfounded," added Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri.

Senior Hamas figure Ismail Radwan told Al-Risala that there has been no agreement on extending the ceasefire because Hamas demands have not been met.

Hamas rejects truce extension, threatens to renew fighting

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:47 AM

Beardie
Sorry - didn't understand either of your posts - what points were you making on both occasions?
"Has anyone noticed that the biggest opposition to Israel comes from our U.K. 'Catters?"
Possibly because we haven't got as many skeletons in our cupboards as has the U.S. with its carpet bombing, napalming and spraying of toxic carcinogenic chemicals    Vietnam, Cambodia..... and all the fascist dictators who the U.S. has supplied with arms intelligence (sic) and manpower)......
People who live in g#lass houses and all that.
"Israel has offered to extend a three-day ceasefire in Gaza which began on Tuesday after nearly a month of conflict, Israeli officials say."
Israel has left Gaza a major disaster area which will remain such for the foreseeable future
Mission accomplished.
Doesn't satisfy Terrytoon the Bearded braindead of course - that won't be achieved until every Palestinian is a thing of the past.
Game on eh lads?
"Boycott, Divest, and Sanction"
Drink to that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:04 AM

"When I want a lecture from The USA I shall have to start murdering my citizens."

Harold Wilson.



I suppose Israel is keeping a tab and saying how they will pay back their "Marshall Plan."??

The USA waded in late, as usual, not to end atrocity but once they worked out that they were next. Pearl Harbour anyone?

If people from civilised countries where citizens aren't armed, prisoners aren't killed and cheese doesn't come in spray cans point out moral aspects, it's possibly because since leaving The USA to it in 1776 , our oversize trousered cousins still have less culture than a bucket of yoghurt. Goofus wants to know why?

Culture and mature pragmatic civilised behaviour.

Oh, and we can spell behaviour too.

Fascinated when I was in Chicago last. An old business colleague couldn't work out why, having right of residency, I or anyone for that matter wouldn't take it up.

You need to get out more.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:50 AM

Interesting parallels raised both by GfS and "Guest,hw" whose rather naive solution is:

"End the Siege of Gaza, Stop building settlements on stolen land, Dismantle the Wall and move it to the UN recognized 1967 border.
And Western leaders, get some guts and tell the Zionists to piss off

Boycott, Divest, and Sanction"

The demand would appear to be that Egypt and Israel must "End the Seige of Gaza" immediately and unconditionally. But Hamas and the Palestinians have to do nothing, leaving them free to "import" whatever weaponry they require (readily supplied by Iran) to resume attacks on Israeli civilians. Sorry "Guest,hw" that isn't going to happen. Only a complete and utter idiot would go along with that - only a complete and utter idiot would propose it.

"Stop building settlements on stolen land" the only land stolen from Palestine was Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank - They were stolen by the Egyptians and Jordanians in 1948 and illegally occupied for nearly 20 years - I note that you have never raised any objections to that. In 1947 the Arabs of Palestine were offered a Two State solution that they rejected, the Jews of Palestine accepted them - Now because the Arabs rejected that deal the plain simple fact of the matter is that there are NO agreed and established borders defining any Israeli and Palestinian states - stop pretending that there are.

"Dismantle the Wall" - Oh you mean the wall that has saved Israeli lives since its construction, preventing sniper attacks and bombers crossing from the West bank into Israel? The peace wall will stay, but as you stated:

"Dismantle the Wall and move it to the UN recognized 1967 border.

You already seem to recognise that fact and accept the necessity of there being a wall - Only trouble is, placed along this mythical recognised 1967 border (Which in actual fact is recognised by no-one) the Wall would not serve its purpose, it would be ineffective. Plus the fact that "going back to 1967 borders" gives Gaza to the Egyptians and East Jerusalem and the West Bank to the Jordanians. Or again is it only the Israelis who must act and commit to meeting the terms and conditions of this deal?

There can be no peace, there can be no settlement, there cannot even be any meaningful talks until the two following conditions are met:

1: Attacks on Israel launched from inside Palestinian territory MUST stop completely.

2: A clear and unequivocal statement has to be made covering all Palestinians that the right of Israel to exist as a State is recognised and that the population of Israel has the right to exist and live their lives in peace and security free from attack and the threat of attack from her neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 11:18 PM

The have laptop warriors here have likely never been in an armed conflict, maybe never even been tear-gassed, clubbed or even pepper sprayed. Yet they are endorsing war crimes and genocide by a racist, settler/colonial state which doesn't give a shit about international law, or UN resolutions, because it has the USA's veto in it's pocket, along with Congress. Ironically another settler/colonial state founded by armed resistance and exterminating the indigenous peoples there.
The 7th cavalry was defending itself at Wounded Knee in 1890 when 200 women and children were butchered. A lot of Congressional Medals were handed out for that turkey shoot and so it continues.
End the Siege of Gaza, Stop building settlements on stolen land, Dismantle the Wall and move it to the UN recognized 1967 border.
And Western leaders, get some guts and tell the Zionists to piss off

Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:16 PM

Not only that, Bobad, the U.S. AND Great Britain, BOTH bombed Berlin and other targets, in which there was collateral damage, and civilian deaths...MULTITUDES!...Did Great Britain bitch when V-E day arrived??..Hell No..they were celebrating and partying in the streets... Worldwide!....Then the soldiers came home, took wives, had children, who then, in turn, bitch about another country, that defends itself from the same thing, that their parents lived through..or should I say, courageously lived through!!...and now we have a bunch of Neville Chamberlains, tied in with the mega corporations and banksters, accusing Israel of being 'mean' to their attackers!!!
Talk about short sighted hypocrisy!!!...They are flaming idiots, and if they were running YOUR country, or ours, they would be treasonous traitors.....but that's OK...they've somewhat successfully blinded you(not you Bobad), with just a lot of bullshit...which apparently tastes real good to the nitwit crowd!
...but as long as they get their plastic, and T.V.'s, and computers, they don't think of survival beyond that!

Most Sincerely,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 06:30 PM

GfS does make a good point about some of our Brit posters whose country's ass was saved in WWII largely with US help yet they resent US aid to Israel......oh the hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 06:20 PM

Israel has offered to extend a three-day ceasefire in Gaza which began on Tuesday after nearly a month of conflict, Israeli officials say.

However, unconfirmed reports on social media suggest the militant Hamas movement, which controls Gaza, has not agreed to the extension.

BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:43 PM

Has anyone noticed that the biggest opposition to Israel comes from our U.K. 'Catters?....I suppose it's easy to be so fucking 'opinionated' about Israel striking back to stop the missile attacks, and tunnel invasions, and then blame Israel. Maybe the U.S. shouldn't have beaten the crap out of Germany, and bomb the fuck out of them, and their cities, and let them continue the bombing of London, and other parts of England....that way the modern day supporters of the idiot Fascists, that were bombing THEM, could have been typing their idiotic posts in German!!!..and you could be buying stock in the railways and chemical companies, to transport more Jews to their Holocaust...while your leader, Chamberlain and his modern day ilk, could give away other countries to appease the attackers!
What a bunch of moronic idiots!!

You, of all people should appreciate Israel for striking back...after all, England would have never made it, without defending itself, with America's 'help'..AND the largest invasion in history to save your silly asses!

Time to re-think your idiot position!
What are you?..Suicidal and proud of it????
...or just spoiled brats who can't think past their indoctrinated fantasy illusions???..and their over-inflated opinions of themselves??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:18 PM

Oh boy, Bullshot is off his meds again.....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:33 PM

Jimmy,

OVER THE LAST 14 YEARS.


You really need to learn to read AND think.

Maybe even at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:32 PM

Jimmy,

OVER THE LAST !$ YEARS.


You really need to learn to read AND think.

Maybe even at the saw time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:26 PM

"OVERALL TOTAL OF WHAT"
Overall Israelis killed - even less reason to have carried out the slaughter they have done if your count of own goals is correct.
By the way - your figure of 30 recent deaths is an invention of your own.
Israel claimed three at the beginning of last week - uncorroborated of course - since then no claim of any - real or invented (except by you)
"Crawl back under your rock and jack off"
Wouldn't dare - too afraid that some Israeli would come along and crush me and my family and friends and neighbours.... and anybody who happened to be in the vicinity, to a pulp, then smash the rock to powwder in case somebody wanted to live there again
"Arms to Israel was not mentioned."
BRITISH ARMS SALES TO ANOTHER TERRORIST STATE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:15 PM

In at least one case, a medium-range M-75, based on Iran's Fajr-5 rocket, exploded during launch. The rocket contains a conventional warhead of at least 100 kilograms and at least seven Palestinians were killed.

"Over the course of the operation approximately 280 rockets were launched and landed within the Gaza Strip," the military said on July 30.

In a briefing on July 29, military spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said Hamas rockets fell on civilian facilities in the Gaza Strip. He cited an accidental Hamas missile strike on Shifa Hospital in Gaza City and the Shati refugee camp just outside the city.

"A short while ago Al Shifa Hospital and Al Shati Refugee Camp were struck by failed rocket attacks launched by Gaza terrorists," the military said.

Hamas has denied any accidental rocket fire on the Gaza Strip. But Palestinian sources said numerous rocket launches ended up falling in Gaza communities and that scores of people have been killed or injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:13 PM

"A Palestinian Arab girl was killed and three others wounded in Gaza after a rocket fired at Israel by terrorists in the Hamas-enclave fell short, landing in Gaza itself.

The rocket was the third of four fired within an hour from Gaza. The Iron Dome anti-missile defense system shot down the first two, which were launched within minutes of each other, and the fourth hit a town in the Sedot Negev Regional Council, causing no damage.

Hamas medical sources say the fatality is a three-year-old girl."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:11 PM

Far from the camera's eye, Gaza's children are injured and sometimes even die, every time Hamas terrorists misfire a missile intended to kill other children in Israel.

But operatives quickly scramble into the scene and clear away the debris from the failed launch, before international cameras are able to snap a shot of the bloody mess.

Reporters are warned and sometimes roughed up. Photographers too. They understand the deal; they've been through this before and they know the rules of the region.

In Syria, dozens have died.

Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati, however, swallowed his fear and waited for the opportunity to tell the truth. When he left Gaza, he took his morals along with him and posted that truth in a tweet on the Twitter social networking site.

gabrielebarbati
Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris

The reference is to an alleged attack on the Al-Shati "refugee camp" and the Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza, both of which were blamed on Israel. An Iranian-made long-range Fajr rocket misfired upon launch at the Al-Shifa hospital, killing and injuring numerous civilians shortly after 5pm on July 28, including many children.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:08 PM

At a local Gazan protest against the war, Hamas gunmen shot and killed 20 unarmed protesters on Monday last week and summarily executed 10 alleged collaborators with Israel the same day. Not everybody wants to die for the Islamist cause.

International humanitarian law requires that the armed force used to achieve an objective may be no more than that which is necessary and that only military objectives are lawful targets. Civilian infrastructure and people are unlawful targets unless they serve military purposes or are participating in hostilities as combatants, compromising their civilian status. Accordingly, risks to civilians must be assessed before deciding whether or how to attack a target or return fire.

In relation to the use of human shields, passive victims of Hamas military policy who find themselves in the vicinity of its facilities are to be protected as much as possible. In targeting a military objective, their casualties should not be disproportionate to the military advantage to be gained.
For example, a decision on whether or how to return mortar fire needs to take into account the obligation to minimise potential harm to civilians. On Wednesday last week, 15 Gazans were killed in an exchange of mortar fire initiated by Hamas from the site of a UN shelter. Questions arise as to whether IDF fire was responsible for the deaths and whether the IDF return fire was necessary, whether it was sufficiently informed by field intelligence, whether higher precision alternatives were available and whether target-specific legal advice and real-time monitoring was possible.

In contrast to passive victims, active human shields who voluntarily put their bodies in the service of Hamas's war effort intend to block fire in combat and they have an individual combat function that compromises their civilian status. Although they themselves are not legitimate targets, the facilities or people they seek to shield are. Their direct participation in hostilities undermines the legal obligation to protect them. They should be forewarned, but their deaths or injuries are legally caused.


Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/how-gaza-became-one-big-suicide-bomb-20140803-zzxgn.html#ixzz39dm0aaZk

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:26 PM

Jimmy,

"The numbers I gave are an overall total"


OVERALL TOTAL OF WHAT??????? There have been more Palestinians admitted being killed by launchers blowing up on the ground than that in the last 14 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:23 PM

Musket, I think you must have misheard that quote if you have not made it up.

Andrew Smith is a spokesperson for Campaign Against Arms Trade.
"As long as Europe continues to give its unconditional military and political support to Israel then it has to bear a degree of responsibility for the ongoing conflict. "

"The EU policy is laid out in the EU/Israel Action plan, which states: "Israel and the EU will strive to intensify political, security, economic, scientific and cultural relations, and shared responsibility in conflict prevention and conflict resolution." Despite these rather heady words the arms sales and military collaboration has only continued, with EU nations taking a back seat, largely staying silent on Israel's actions. "
https://www.opendemocracy.net/transformation/andrew-smith/we-are-all-complicit-in-bombardment-of-gaza

I previously provided an EU list of all its restrictions.
Arms to Israel was not mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:16 PM

No I am not -m that can be put down directly to retaliation to extreme aggression
The numbers I gave are an overall total
"Since Hamas chose to use it's concrete to make tunnels to attack Israel RATHER THAN build shelters for their civilian population, "
Like us Brits spent all our money on air-raid shelters instead of defence weapon, do you mean.
Just what the Israelis would have wanted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:04 PM

Jimmy boy,



"actual sum total of rocket casualties since 2000 = 22"

Yopu are not including the ADMITTED 30+ in Gaza the last few weeks?

The numbers I gave are for an unprotected urban environment, like Gaza.

The number YOU give ( which I presume is Israelis killed by Gazan rocket fire) is for a population with shelters and a warning system.

Since Hamas chose to use it's concrete to make tunnels to attack Israel RATHER THAN build shelters for their civilian population, the two sets of numbers cannot be compared.


Crawl back under your rock and jack off on the thought of those dead Palestinian civilians, Jimmy boy

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:02 PM

Where did your figure come from Jim?
Is it just Israeli casualties?
BB is referring to deaths within Gaza caused by failed rocket attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:58 PM

Brucie the blusterer
Don't know where your figures came from but actual sum total of rocket casualties since 2000 = 22
Now go and count how many revenge killings of civilians have taken place in the last three weeks
These are figures supplied by independent observers and freely available on non - aligned websits - and before you demand (beligerant twats like you don't ask) - I'll show you mine if and when you show me yours.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:55 PM

Musket,

I keep saying that the children murdered by Hamas anti-personnel rockets and by Israeli counter-fire at rocket launch sites that Hamas has ILLEGALLY located in protected areas are the responsibility of Hamas.


HAMAS stated that at least 160 children were killed in making those tunnels to attack Israel. I support THEY are all killed by Israel as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:48 PM

2-3 killed, 45-60 wounded from each warhead.

Of course those are average values- some might hit an open area and kill no-one, some might land in a schoolyard and kill 25 or so.


The 20-30% misfire hitting Gaza is the OBSERVED rate- the number that do not leave the ground and explode at the launch site would add to this. No good figures on how many THAT is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:37 PM

Jimmy boy,

" go count the number of people who have actually been killed in the last dozen years and report back
Jim Carroll"

OK, I am. The number of civilians killed in recent years is consistent with two sets of numbers.

1. The inclusion of a large number of non-uniformed fighters in combat being claimed by Hamas to be civilian ( but the statistics are not correct- too many of the ages 18-27, not enough women)

2. The expected kill rate for random hits by Hamas anti-personnel rockets on unsheltered Palestinian civilians- 640- 960 rockets hitting Gaza, 2-3 killed, 45-60 wounded from each warhead.

Now tell me- Is Hamas LYING about who is being killed, or are they LYING about HOW they are being killed? EITHER fits the data.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:25 PM

Jimmy,

"Almost the entire deaths in Gaza have been the direct results of deliberate Israeli attacks
"

ACCORDING TO YOU AND YOUR LIES, or just according to Hamas? When did YOU go over there for first hand information?

""HAMAS is using anti-personnel warheads on their rockets"
"

ARE YOU DENYING THIS??

There are pictures of the missiles, pictures of the impacts in Israel, and a large collection of fragments ALL SHOWING THAT THEY ARE ANTI_PERSONNEL.




I bet you think your shit doesn't stink, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:18 PM

"The civilians being killed in Gaza are often killed by anti-personnel warheads."
Fucking nonsense
Almost the entire deaths in Gaza have been the direct results of deliberate Israeli attacks
"Israel is using explosive warheads to destroy rockets and tunnels"
And using mortars, tanks, flechette weapons, and all the armament they possess against everything in comes within range.
They actualy instructed those sheltering in U.N refuges t remain where they were, then shelled them - that's howw deliberate their attacks have been.
They gave the staff ten minutes to evacuate the buildings before they deliberately shelled hospitals.
A film last week showed an Israeli pilot explaining to a TV reporter how is lane worked and proudly showed her what magnificently sophisticated surveillance equipment, showing how they could pinpoint what they were aiming at.
Whe she pointed out that they were destroying hospitals, he paused, then sauid, "yeah, but we are offering them medical attention".
Deliberate murder and no pretence of anything else.
"HAMAS is using anti-personnel warheads on their rockets"
Proof of this please - go count the number of people who have actually been killed in the last dozen years and report back
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 12:45 PM

Musket,

The civilians being killed in Gaza are often killed by anti-personnel warheads.

Israel is using explosive warheads to destroy rockets and tunnels

HAMAS is using anti-personnel warheads on their rockets.

20-30% of the Hamas rockets are landing in GAZA.


WHERE DO THOSE 640-960 ANTI-PERSONNEL ROCKETS THAT HIT GAZA AFTER BEING LAUNCHED AT ISRAEL BY HAMAS LAND, that they NEVER hurt anyone according to YOU and HAMAS??



You and Jimmy boy might just shut the fuck up until you learn to look at the evidence and not just accept the propaganda ( OF EITHER SIDE) without question.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 12:36 PM

Braidedbeardedbruce..

You keep saying that the children murdered by Israeli soldiers are the responsibility of Hamas.

I didn't know Hamas was fighting alongside Israelis? or in your head are all terrorists on the same side?

Every world leader reckons Israel are doing the bombing, and they employ clever people to tell them. Considering you and Poo Bad are the only people outside of the Israeli government saying otherwise, and you are both nobodies anyway, does that mean at long last you might just shut the fuck up?

Your glorifying of murder and mud slinging at anyone shocked and horrified at what you celebrate makes decent people have to shower more regularly.

And the price of water isn't cheap.





As every Gaza resident can tell you...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 10:51 AM

"Which I have stated is Hamas responsibility, and YOU ignore"
Whoops sorry Juicy Brucie- I thought it was the Israeli tanks guns bombs and planes which have done the killing.
To describe this massacre as "defensive" is an obscenity in itself - it is nothing less than mass murder on a grand scale.
Whatever I might think of Hamas - Israel has been the aggressor throughout this war.

The Blockade is newly ten years old, the Walls have been in existence for nearly that long - efforts to create a 'Jewish' State' via forcibly imposed settlements date back to the 1960s.
The State of Israel came into existence with the sound of hand-grenades being thrown into occupied homes - departing British troops ad the Israeli historian Max Morris testified to that fact.
It was those massacres which inspired Albert Einstein and his Jewish co-signatories to warn of a "Fascist Zionist State".
Hamas is guilty of offering resistance; they were put into authority because their predecessors weren't up to the job.
Israel is recognised throughout the world as an aggressor - some have supported that aggression for business and political reasons, but the Palestinians are victims of Israeli aggression.
You have said yourself that the Palestinians have no right to their homeland - multiply that with a wealthy, politically influential, well armed and equipped aggressive state marching in mob handed - four times now, and each time filling another few graveyards and leaving thousands of people homeless each time - plus a nearly decade long siege to bring a poverty-stricken, ill-armed and ill trained Third World people to their knees - that is the situation.
This last obscenity has proved too rich for even Israels strongest allies - as the journalists said on last night's programme - the Israelis don't give two fucks what the world thinks of them - they will continue to starve and slaughter until somebody dos something about it.
There are now serious discussions of a boycott of Israeli goods - the quicker, the better.
I notice this latest bloodbath is being referred to as Israel's Soweto - about time.
I notice you fail to comment on Israel's deliberate use of childern as Human Targets - they probably all had rocket launchers in ther schoolbags!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 10:48 AM

I didn't see it. Prick. I am a normal person. I use the internet, I am not governed by it. The Today programme possibly, or Radio 2. Not every verbal word in current affairs is transcribed into text, funnily enough. Mind you, I assume it was part of a press release so keep trying, it might turn up yet.

If your wife tells you your tea has gone cold, do you google "cold tea" and defy her to call you a liar?

There aren't half some odd buggers on Mudcat. Not all of them are benign either.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:50 AM

"THE WANTON SLAUGHTER OF NEARLY TWO THOUSAND HUMAN BEINGS - MAINLY NON- COMBATANTS, MANY CHILDREN INCLUDED "


Which I have stated is Hamas responsibility, and YOU ignore.

WHERE DO THOSE 900 ANTI-PERSONNEL ROCKETS THAT HIT GAZA AFTER BEING LAUNCHED AT ISRAEL BY HAMAS LAND, that they NEVER hurt anyone according to YOU and HAMAS??

Yet EVERY Israeli shell seeks out some civilian, every time that Israel attacks the launching sites of those ILLEGAL HAMAS ROCKETS.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:42 AM

No, Jimmy.

YOU are the bastard for supporting Hamas in it's war crimes: Attacking the civilian population of Israel, using it's own civilians as human shields, and using protected sites such as schools, apartments, and hospitals as military sites.

YOU have blood all over you for that support.

You keep posting Hamas propaganda, and have YET to admit that it has been shown to be false in many cases-

YOU blame Israel for what YOU are encouraging Hamas to do- KILL PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:34 AM

"But anything not from the Hamas propaganda site HAS to be a lie,"
There have been such accusations made throughout - virtually all unsubstantiated
Even if this one is genuine THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE THE WANTON SLAUGHTER OF NEARLY TWO THOUSAND HUMAN BEINGS - MAINLY NON- COMBATANTS, MANY CHILDREN INCLUDED WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU AND YOUS HAVE SUPPORTED THROUGHOUT
You have been given desriptians and photographs of Palestinian childern being dent into unsafe ares sat on the bonnets of military vehicles - of Israeli troops usng occupied homes as lookout points, of schoolyards being used to launch rockets, of teachers having to flee with infants in arms to escape tear-gas...... not a murmur from one of you.
Such acts are reprehensible - whoever is to blame.
Bastards, them and you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:48 AM

Unlike Mudcat's apologists and Jew haters the people of Gaza know who is to blame:

"Palestinian civilians attacked Hamas spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhri and beat him near Shifa Hospital in the Gaza Strip recently, according to a report on the Egyptian website Veto Gate.

According to the site, Abu Zuhri's attackers were expressing anger at Hamas, placing blame on the terrorist organization for inciting the IDF's Operation Protective Edge in which nearly 2,000 Palestinians were killed and some 10,000 homes destroyed."

Report: Hamas spokesperson attacked by Gaza civilians

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:39 AM

http://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-rocket-team-caught-on-video-2014-8


But anything not from the Hamas propaganda site HAS to be a lie,


Right, Jimmy boy?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:27 AM

Gaza School Attack Now Appears To Be Staged

Jeff Dunetz wrote at Truth Revolt:

    The account promoted by Hamas and repeated by the United States and the U.N. on Sunday was that an Israeli mortar hit a U.N. school, killing 10 people, including children. However, evidence is emerging that the Israeli strike hit outside of the school and the bodies were moved into the courtyard to make it look like Israel hit the school.

Rick Moran noted at PJTatler that the shell "struck a street outside the school gates on Sunday morning."

Now a video posted by Moral Divide indicates the Palestinian propaganda machine — otherwise known as "Pallywood" — had swung into action. And naturally, the rabidly anti-Israel left bought it, hook, line and sinker.

Here's the video: YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:55 AM

Musket, Google can not find that quote.
Where did you see it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:59 AM

"Israel Confirms Hamas Funded Kidnapping"
No - Israel claims that to be the case - I think you'll find that "interrogation" is referred to as "special rendition" nowadays.
I watched an discussion on Irish television last night where three media people discussed the reportage of the Gaza bloodbath.
They were all stunned by the tidal-wave of condemnation of Israeli behaviour coming from the on-the-spot reporters and their interviewees - doctors, aid workers, neutral observers, victims.... all universally describing the events as unacceptable.
They ended the programme by saying that the Israelis were aware of overwhelming condemnation and just didn't give a fuck.
It's difficult to see how our brown-nosing politicians will talk their way out of this one - no doubt they will try.
So far we have had one Conservative Minister saying it would be "wrong to condemn Israel because it would endanger peace negotiations".
America condemned the shelling of hospitals and shelters, but continued to sell Israel the weaponry to do it.
Politicians eh - but they must be right because Keith trusts them and says their word over-rides those of Human Rights organisations.      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:55 AM

Here's one for Keith. A quote from David Cameron's No. 10 spokesman yesterday after ministers called for a banning of military sales to Israel.

"Export licences are under review and there are existing EU limitations on the types of military hardware Israel can purchase."

Oh how Keith laughed as he decided his ignorance must be right because it was only thick Musket who seems to know about it...

I wonder if any of our other war mongering cut and paste johnnies are noticing how western and Middle Eastern governments seem to be starting to share the same view of Israeli war crimes in Palestine?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:58 PM

You mean BWWWAAAAARP, or other representations of liquid defecation, dontcha, Boo?

Paregoric is the thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:00 PM

Yawwwn!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:56 PM

It appears that Boo has contracted an acute case of serial postarrhoea from BullshotBruce.

The CDC should be advised - it might spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:34 PM

Israel Confirms Hamas Funded Kidnapping

Accomplice in abduction and murder of three teens says order came from Gaza

By Batya Ungar-Sargon — Aug 5, 2014

Israel has confirmed that the funding for the June kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers Naftali Frankel, Gilad Shaer, and Eyal Yifrah—which set off a chain of events that led to the current war in Gaza—was provided by Hamas.

Hassam Qawasameh, a Palestinian man arrested on July 11 in connection with the abduction, admitted that the orders and financing of the kidnapping came from Gaza. Paul Hirschson, deputy spokesperson for international media at Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, tweeted the news this afternoon after an Israeli gag order was lifted.

Hirschson confirmed by phone that Qawasameh was arrested three weeks ago in connection with the kidnapping, and that Qawasameh admitted the Hamas connection under interrogation.

Ynet reports that money from Hamas operatives in Gaza was used to purchase weapons used in the attack, as well as the plot of land in which the bodies were buried.

Today's confirmation refutes speculation from various news outlets last week that Hamas wasn't behind the kidnapping, and that the kidnappers were operating as a "lone cell."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:25 PM

Hamas is attempting to convince Palestinians that its military actions during the Gaza conflict were victorious and that the war it caused, with all its destruction, was beneficial to the Palestinians. As Palestinian Media Watch previously reported, Hamas justified the civilian deaths it caused in Gaza, claiming that it was beneficial to those killed to have died for Allah as Shahids - Martyrs. Now, Hamas is justifying the widespread destruction it caused to infrastructure and homes, saying, "Perhaps all this [destruction] is for the best":

Hamas TV: Perhaps destruction in Gaza is "for the best"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:23 PM

FRANCE 24 has exclusive footage of a Hamas rocket launching pad that appears to prove the militant group has been firing from areas heavily populated with civilians.

Correspondent Gallagher Fenwick says the site, in Gaza City, is some 50 metres from a hotel where the majority of international media is staying, and just 100 metres from a UN building.

"This type of setup is at the heart of the debate," says Gallagher. "The Israeli army has repeatedly accused the Palestinian militants of shooting from within densely populated civilian areas and that is precisely the type of setup we have here."

The launching pad is also where the FRANCE 24 team had a close call last week. During a live cross to the Paris studio, a rocket was fired overhead, forcing Gallagher and his crew to take cover.

FRANCE 24

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:54 PM

"Hossam said that he obtained funding for the attack from Hamas operatives in the Gaza Strip."

So, our apologists have egg on their face once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:53 PM

Sometimes people assume that you can have access to everything, that you can see everything. But the fighters are virtually invisible to us. What we do as photographers is document what we can to show that side of the war. There are funerals, there are people being rushed to the hospital, but you can't differentiate the fighters from the civilians. They are not wearing uniforms. If there is someone coming into the hospital injured, you can't tell if that's just a shopkeeper or if this is someone who just fired a rocket towards Israel. It's impossible to know who's who. We tried to cover this as objectively as possible.

NY Times: Looking for the Enduring Photo in Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 02:55 PM

"Hossam said that he obtained funding for the attack from Hamas operatives in the Gaza Strip."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 02:45 PM

Kawasmeh attempted to flee to Jordan with fake identification once the bodies of the teens were found. During interrogation, Kawasmeh admitted that he had acted as the leader of the murder in which Marwan Kawasmeh and Amar Abu-Eisha are also suspects. Hossam said that he obtained funding for the attack from Hamas operatives in the Gaza Strip.


Leader in murder of Israeli teens arrested

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 12:02 PM

BBC also reported the launch outside their hotel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:35 AM

"This report is being aired on NDTV and published on ndtv.com after our team left the Gaza strip - Hamas has not taken very kindly to any reporting of its rockets being fired. But just as we reported the devastating consequences of Israel's offensive on Gaza's civilians, it is equally important to report on how Hamas places those very civilians at risk by firing rockets deep from the heart of civilian zones.
"


No comment on Hamas's use of civilians as human shields- no change there then

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:30 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/05/lady-warsi-resigns-government-gaza-stance
"Glad to see you signing your posts properly."
In other words - no comment on Israel's use of horrific weapons on civilians - no change there then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:30 AM

Gaza: In the minutes before the ceasefire kicked in at Gaza this morning, Hamas fired a flurry of rockets towards Israel - 30 according to some counts.

Israel has argued that that these rockets are fired from civilian areas, and this is why its retaliatory strikes can result in civilian casualties.

But this morning, NDTV witnessed one such rocket silo being created under a tent right next to the hotel where our team was staying. Minutes later, we saw the rocket being fired, just before the 72-hour ceasefire came into effect.

It began with a mysterious tent with a blue canopy that bobbed up yesterday (August 4) at 6:30 am in an open patch of land next to our window. We saw three men making a multitude of journeys in and out of the tent, sometimes with wires.

An hour later, they emerged, dismantled the tent, changed their clothes and walked away.

The next morning - today - we woke to news of the 72-hour ceasefire but just before it was to take effect, the rocket next to our hotel was fired. There was a loud explosion and a whooshing sound. The cloud of smoke that rose was captured by our cameraperson.

This report is being aired on NDTV and published on ndtv.com after our team left the Gaza strip - Hamas has not taken very kindly to any reporting of its rockets being fired. But just as we reported the devastating consequences of Israel's offensive on Gaza's civilians, it is equally important to report on how Hamas places those very civilians at risk by firing rockets deep from the heart of civilian zones.

NDTV Exclusive: How Hamas Assembles and Fires Rockets Video

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:05 AM

Musket,

Glad to see you signing your posts properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:55 AM

Third time around
VERMONT
While I'm at it:
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH

Human Rights Watch, on Israel's Conduct
After conducting an investigation, Human Rights Watch (HRW) issued a report on Wednesday accusing Israel of carrying out "unlawful" strikes in Gaza, ones that "either did not attack a legitimate military target or attacked despite the likelihood of civilian casualties being disproportionate to the military gain." It noted that "Such attacks committed deliberately or recklessly constitute war crimes." HRW Middle East Director Sarah Leah Whitson also added that Israel's actions raise "serious questions as to whether these attacks are intended to target civilians or wantonly destroy civilian property."

________________________________________
ADVERTISEMENT
________________________________________
The report also said that "Human Rights Watch has documented numerous serious violations of the laws of war by Israeli forces in the past decade, particularly indiscriminate attacks on civilians," and criticized Israel's preposterously inadequate efforts at "warning" civilians of impending strikes. Now, which part of all that fits with "exemplary" efforts at avoiding killing civilians? Still, some may buy into Israel's allegation that Hamas's use of human shields is what's responsible for the high civilian death toll. Let's look at the evidence.
Human Shields
While human rights organizations haven't yet addressed "human shields" allegations in the ongoing round of Israel-Gaza violence, they did after the 2009 round when Israel killed at least773 Palestinian civilians, compared to three Israeli civilian casualties (a ratio of 257:1), and used the same "human shields" argument to deflect responsibility for those deaths. When the dust settled, Amnesty International investigated the matter and concluded that there was "no evidence that [Palestinian] rockets were launched from residential houses or buildings while civilians were in these buildings." More attention-worthy was the report's note that,
in the cases of [Israeli] precision missiles or tank shells which killed [Palestinian] civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.
Israel's Use of Human Shields
By contrast, the same report found that "in several cases Israeli soldiers also used [Palestinian] civilians, including children, as 'human shields'." Going back in time just a little further to put this into context is important: when the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that the Israeli military had to stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields, the Israeli "defense" establishmentobjected to the ruling. The appeal against the ruling failed, and the practice remains technically illegal, but Israel implicitly encourages it to continue by offering an "inadequate … slap on the wrist," as Human Rights Watch put it, to Israeli soldiers caught using this reprehensible tactic.
This reveals two important things: the first is the moral hypocrisy and chutzpah on display when Israel ignores its own use of human shields as it accuses its enemies of using them. The second is Israel's self-contradicting logic: If Palestinian militants had such disregard for Palestinian civilian lives, why was the Israeli military so invested in maintaining the ability to use Palestinians as shields? The fact that the Israeli army wants to use Palestinian human shields actually proves that they believe Palestinian militants prefer not to endanger their own civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:05 AM

Link?


I do not believe ANYTHING YOU say without some supporting link.

You have made too many lies to have earned any trust.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:54 AM

THE ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP B'TSELEM HAS RECORDED NUMEROUS OCCASIONS WHEN THE ISRAELI ARMY HAS FIRED FLECHETTE SHELLS, BOTH IN LEBANON AND GAZA. THE SHELL RELEASES THOUSANDS OF TINY METAL DARTS THAT CAUSE HORRIBLE INJURIES TO ANYONE OUT IN THE OPEN.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:48 AM

"The Hamas leadership is responsible for the killing of Palestinians, not Israelis," he told Haaretz in 2010. "I tell you with certainty that the Israelis care about the Palestinians far more than the Hamas or Fatah leadership does."

When the Son of Hamas Spied for Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:42 AM

that the Jewish state seems to arouse a level of condemnation that never seems to apply equally elsewhere.

Ya gots that exactly backwards, Boo. Yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:29 AM

As for racism, people often point out how peculiar it is that the Jewish state seems to arouse a level of condemnation that never seems to apply equally elsewhere. But perhaps the real racism is the indifference to Muslim suffering around the world when the person dropping the bomb or pulling the trigger is another Muslim. A world that makes a fetish of the alleged guilt of Israel is also a world that holds too much Muslim life cheap.

Wall Street Journal

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:43 AM

What more evidence can we need?

More than just an accusation from some random Palestinian group!

Re. Warsi, I did know that many people do not support Israel on this.
Given the reporting, it is amazing anyone does!

Washington Post.
"The media has engaged in journalistic malpractice by reporting casualty figures for civilians coming from Gaza as gospel. The figures come from the Gazan Ministry of Health, which is controlled by Hamas. The Ministry of Health counts everyone not in uniform as a civilian. Most Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms. The UN is sometimes sourced for the figures, but the UN gets its figures from … the Gazan Ministry of Health. Contrary to early reports that 80% or so of the early casualties were civilians, Al-Jazeera published names and ages, and about 3/4 were men of fighting age (16-50), compared to a rough estimate of 20% of the Gazan population (40% to 50% of which is fourteen and under). Some of those men were undoubtedly civilians, but it strains credulity to believe that 80% of the casualties were civilian but just-so-happened to be overwhelmingly fighting-age men. (Here's the most recent analysis from the IsraellyCool blog). For that matter, how do we know that the Minsitry of Health isn't counting deaths from natural causes as deaths from Israeli actions?"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/26/some-israel-gaza-notes/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:39 AM

"Baroness Warsi has just resigned from the government...."

"It's a strange world when a Tory Cabinet minister resigns because a Tory Government is not being supportive enough of terrorists. Her appointment was nothing but tokenism anyway, and tokenism nearly always ends badly."

Adam Carr

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:34 AM

Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, the Israeli military spokesman, said that Israel had completed the destruction of "approximately 32 tunnels" built by Hamas into Israel, and that Israeli forces had killed "approximately 900 militants in combat." He said that Israel had destroyed more than 3,000 rockets belonging to Hamas and its ally Islamic Jihad, that those groups had launched more than 3,300 rockets toward Israel, and that Israel believed they had remaining stocks of 3,000 rockets.

Cease Fire Begins

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM

By the way Keith - on what authority are you denying a press report that has been circulated internationally on something Israel has not denied - have you been appointed a spokesman on their behalf - or is this jut part of your previously stated infallibility?
Do you not realise what an arse-liking moron it makes you look?
You appear to have no self respect or sense of the ridiculous
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:19 AM

No journalist from any reputable news agency has done more than report that accusation"
A repeat of my reply from the other thread
Doesn't matter a toss - they've used them before, they have used them again - why shouldn't they.
You have given your blessing of their use
What more evidence can we need?
You are an arse-licking moron who doesn't even wait for the arse you are licking to fart before claiming it doesn't smell.
I suppose you know Lady Varsi has resigned from the Government in protest to the British Government's arse-licking approach to Gaza?
"THIS is another of your consistent lies- YOU state things WITHOUT giving any supporting link, and TELL us that it HAS to be believed because Hamas said so."
Qiire honestly, Juicy Brucie - I really don't mind being called a liar by someone of supports the wiping out of an entire people after having previously proposed that they "have no right to live where they live and should be driven into the desert to let their own kind take care of them"
Keep up the good work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:14 AM

Baroness Warsi has just resigned from the government in disgust at The Prime Minister's reluctance to openly denounce Israel. Even those who Keith can't denounce as lefty liberals feel credibility is no longer there.

Of course, he could pount out that is a woman. He could say she is a Muslim. He has to say though that she was the minister responsible for faith issues, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Sikh,, Uncle Tom Cobbely and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:05 AM

Over 3200 Hamas anti-personnel warhead rockets so far…


600 to 900 have landed (and blown up ) in Gaza.

Hamas has not yet reported ONE casualty from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:16 AM

Jimmy,

" always provide evidence for what I say -"

THIS is another of your consistent lies- YOU state things WITHOUT giving any supporting link, and TELL us that it HAS to be believed because Hamas said so.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM

Reported worldwide and not denied,

It was reported that "a Palestinian human rights group accused."
No journalist from any reputable news agency has done more than report that accusation, and that is all it is.
Israel does not bother to dignify with denial all the stories made up about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 05:50 AM

"IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on "Urban Warfare,""

According to the IDF, and of course they would never DREAM of posting lying propaganda!

Grow up!

They are no more and no less likely to lie than Hamas, and if what the Israli government says about the missiles and ordnance they've destroyed is true, why are the world's news media not covered with photos and film of these.

Surely Israel would be smart enough to ensure that their claims would be indisputably proven.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 05:41 AM

"Those who blame Israel first must ask themselves exactly what would they do if they were in Israel's place? What would they do if faced with religious terrorists dedicated to exterminating their people?"

Why must they, when you and all the other Israel supporters haven't yet shown the courage to answer the reverse.

What would YOU do if your country were besieged and bombed to rubble by a more powerful neighbour?

Your lack of willingness to answer would seem a sufficient answer in itself.

You would support resistance,but to admit that would destroy your fanatically pro Israel argument.

Keep on sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting LA LA LA!

Then you won't have to hear about dying women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:57 AM

"Jim, no reliable source has reported flechette use and no such casualties have occurred."
Reported worldwide and not denied, or even responded to by Israel is evidence enough for most people
The fact that you have decided off your own bat to deny it on Israel's behalf and blame fragments from Hamas missiles says everything that needs to be said about you.
THESE STATEMENTS ARE YOURS AND YOURS ALONE - EVEN ISRAEL HAS NOT GOT ROUND TO INVENTING THEM YET - THEY ARE YOUR INVENTIONS ENTIRELY - YOU ARE ONE SICK, FANATICAL INDIVIDUAL WHO APPEARS TO HAVE APPOINTED YOURSELF AN UNOFFICIAL SPOKESMAN FOR A FASCIST REGIME
"Israel calling, Israel calling" ... spooky or what?
"Since you NEVER provide any source for your claims, it is difficult to think that they are true"
Blustering Brucie:
I always provide evidence for what I say - you, on the other hand shout and bluff your way through your extremist Zionist rhetoric.
I have become very tired and sickened of you nasty bunch of inhuman fanatics who have dedicated your time to supporting war crimes and atrocities and ignoring the wanton murder of innocent human beings by a State that not only threatens the safety of the world, but has destroyed the dream of the Jewish people with its thuggery.
The example that you and your little band of ranters set of what Isreal has become is beyond value: Keith - inventing propaganda as he goes along; you, posting as if you were addressing a Nuremberg Rally; and Little Booboo... well what can one say about him apart from his entertainment value - a sort of cross between Winnie the Pooh and Chuckie.
You have set out to defend a atrocity in which approaching 2,000 people, mainly non combatants have been slaughtered by bombs, heavy artillery and sophisticated weaponry - men women and children of all ages and conditions of health.
They have been instructed to flee into shelter by their attackers then those shelters have been shelled and bombed.
Hospitals have been given ten minutes to evacuate their staff and patients and then destroyed
Homes have been bombed wiping out entire families still occupying them.
Hospitals, schools, medical centres, care homes..... all fair game for the thugs.
Reports on what has happened to journalists at the hands of our brave Israeli boys have been ongoing throughout this obscenity - I summed up what I remembered.
THIS IS A MORE RECENT ONE
That is not to say these occurences haven't been happening on both sides, of course they have - but you and yours, distinct from everyone else here, have formed yourself into a gallant band to take sides and defend this shit and show how it's all been about an impoverished, Third World State, ghettoised by decades of aggression, which has proved such a powerful threat to poor, vulnerable Israel that it has been necessary to wipe out as many of them as possible, leaving the survivors devastated and homeless, destroying their health facilities and education centres and resources for every-day living.
They are thugs and you are supporting thuggery and will continue to do so because you are no better than they are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:07 PM

Israel is not without blame, and should be held accountable for unnecessary civilian casualties. Yet it is important to stress that Hamas is engaged in an Islamic holy war dedicated to exterminating the Jews. Those who blame Israel first must ask themselves exactly what would they do if they were in Israel's place? What would they do if faced with religious terrorists dedicated to exterminating their people?

Progressive Secular Humanist

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:55 PM

The first time I witnessed Hamas's hatred of Jews manifest itself in large-scale, fatal violence was in late July of 1997, when two of the group's suicide bombers detonated themselves in an open-air market in West Jerusalem. The attack took 16 lives, and injured 178. I happened to be only a few blocks from the market at the time of the attack, and arrived shortly after the paramedics and firefighters. Over the next hours, a scene unfolded that I would see again and again: screaming relatives; members of the Orthodox burial society scraping flesh off walls; the ground covered in blood and viscera. I remember another Hamas attack, on a bus in downtown Jerusalem, in which body parts of children were blown into the street by the force of the blast. At yet another bombing, I was with rescue workers as they recovered a human arm stuck high up in a tree.

After each of these attacks, Hamas leaders issued blood-curdling statements claiming credit, and promising more death. "The Jews will lose because they crave life but a true Muslim loves death," a former Hamas leader, Abdel-Aziz Rantisi, told me in an interview in 2002. In the same interview he made the following imperishable statement: "People always talk about what the Germans did to the Jews, but the true question is, 'What did the Jews do to the Germans?'"

What Would Hamas Do If It Could Do Whatever It Wanted?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:41 PM

Jim, no reliable source

Define "reliable source", FKWT.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:20 PM

IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on "Urban Warfare," which belonged to the Shuja'iya Brigade of Hamas' military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades. The manual explains how the civilian population can be used against IDF forces and reveals that Hamas knows the IDF is committed to minimizing harm to civilians.

Throughout Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has continuously used the civilian population of Gaza as human shields. The discovery of a Hamas "urban warfare" manual by IDF forces reveals that Hamas' callous use of the Gazan population was intentional and preplanned.

This Hamas urban warfare manual exposes two truths: (1) The terror group knows full well that the IDF will do what it can to limit civilian casualties. (2) The terror group exploits these efforts by using civilians as human shields against advancing IDF forces.

The Manual

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:55 PM

Jim, no reliable source has reported flechette use and no such casualties have occurred.

Your linked piece referred to "nail shrapnel."
That could only be from locally manufactured warheads.
Commercially produced munitions would not contain nails.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:47 PM

Greggie,

You need to actually learn to read sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:26 PM

I will wait for your sources- that should be easy to put up here IF they are real.

Et tu, Bullshot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:00 PM

Jimmy,

Since you NEVER provide any source for your claims, it is difficult to think that they are true ( i.e., factual, and not a figment of your imagination).

I will wait for your sources- that should be easy to put up here IF they are real.

The posted reports here of journalists that were kept silent by Hamas until they left Gaza HAVE had those sources- Are you capable of providing SOME reasonable support for your claims?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 01:51 PM

"There are reports here from those reporters who were prevented from reporting the Hamas launches and the effect of Hamas rockets on Gaza."
There are equally reports of those covering the Israeli side - two were reported to have died in mysterious circumstances
There have been reports of 62 violations against journalists by Israeli forces, including the bombing of two press cars and 14 bombs being dropped on media centres
In all, nine deaths and thirteen injuries have been recorded.
Crap indeed.
Reports from U.N. volunteers working in refugee centres attacked by Israelis, with large losses of life, have specifically decalred that not only had they been infored of the refugee status of the centres and the exact co-ordinates ON 17 occasions, but they had acknowledged and orded the occupants to stay put - then they shelled the buildings.
"Israel left ALL of Gaza and has made clear it wants NONE of it."
You are now beginning to soung like Lord Haw-Haw on speed
Having been presented with a report and photographs of Israeli fired flchette missiles, you have just denied outright their existence and said the phtofraps (dart-shaped missiles) were Hamas shrapnel - the ******* Israelis haven't even claimed this - you have invented it as an excuse for using maiming and lethal weapons on civilians.
You really haven't been taking your meds, have you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 01:46 PM

Netanjahu,Bennett,Liebermann & co. need Hamas in order to justify their attitudes, politics etc.......just as Hamas needs Netanjahu, Bennett, Liebermann & co. in order to justify their attitudes, politics.........a vicious circle.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 12:11 PM

Your 1102 post was the post of a fool, I fear, Troub. I was talking of the withdrawal of 2005; there was no barbed wire in evidence then. It was subsequently erected by those inside, not by those who had left.

Go back to plucking your lute, eh!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:43 AM

Troubadour, in previous incursions Hamas fighters were passed off as civilian casualties.

That is the likeliest explanation for what is happening now.
Why do you think there are so many more young men than in the general population?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:37 AM

Jim, Israel left ALL of Gaza and has made clear it wants NONE of it.

It has to take control of that strip to destroy the tunnels as they are legally entitled to do in self defence because the tunnels were built to attack Israel.

Israel is not carving chunks off Gaza.
Gaza has no reason to attack Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:34 AM

To quote YOU, Jimmy Boy

Utter CRAP. There are reports here from those reporters who were prevented from reporting the Hamas launches and the effect of Hamas rockets on Gaza. YOUR inability to read simple statements is YOUR problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:27 AM

"Injured people filmed at the scene all happened to be young men."

Devious and inane all in one!

Unless those young men were armed, uniformed, or engaged in operating a rocket launcher, you have absolutely NO basis for denying that they are civilians, other than your intention to imply that all young men are militants.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:15 AM

"In fact, Jim, would you be pleased if Israel were after all to be wiped off the map?"

No fair MtheGM! Jim has NEVER indicated any such feeling, as you WELL know.

In fact, Mike, would you be pleased if Israel were after all to wipe the Palestinians of the map, so there'd finally be peaceful extra land for Israeli settlers?

And before you answer, that is a rhetorical question, but no more insulting of YOU than YOU were of JIM!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:10 AM

"WE ARE QUOTING HAMAS."
Didn't say you weren't - just said the statement was no more or less extreme than that of Israel - and certainly not of Israel's actions.
Extremist groups have threatened to wipe out Jews - Israelis atr acually in the process of wiping out Arabs - and have been for a long time.
I find the practice of blaming what is happening in Israel on the Jews - you do it all the time, which puts you on par with the worst of Islamic extremism
"The sources that the stooges keep giving NEVER state that ANY Gazans are killed by these missiles"
Neither does any other source apart from the Israeli propaganda machine and there are enough neutral observers around to see what's what (whoops, sorry - everybody who criticises Israel is automatically Antisemitic)
"How many opponents do you throw off a building to win a Palestinian election?"
About as many residents of Israel who are considered second-rate citizens because they worship at the wrong church.
INEQUALITY REPORT
Sorry Blundering Brucie - must try harder.
"But, tho I think the Israelis might be persuaded to come to the UN conference table..."
Don't know what gives you that impression, especially in the light of their having deliberately sabotaged the last round of peace talks
As far as Hamas is concerned, I have no doubt that they realise that they can't win a shooting war with Israel - a removal of the blockade and the walls would be a tremendous victory for them - as far as I'm concerned, it would be a betrayal of the Gazan's to accept anything less.
The Israelis could then claim their victory by having demolished the tunnels - faces saved all round.
"This is a group of whom we hear little or nothing!"
Not here Eddie - but some people choose to ignore their plight in all this.
Israel has been systematically ethnically cleansing the Bedouins for some years now - they have twice attempted to evict whole communities and re-house them on toxic land, they have driven settled Bedouins off ther homesteads with chemical sprays and water cannons in order to make way for Israeli settlers... a persecuted people indeed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:02 AM

"Then they left Gaza to govern itself. So the Palestinian population organised and held free elections."

INSIDE the barbed wire controlled by the IDF.

Such freedom! Wow!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:56 AM

Sorry! Last guest post was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:55 AM

"Jim, Israel is not cutting bits off Gaza."

A three kilometre strip of Gaza, where Israel has ordered the inhabitants to leave has been, and is being, reduced to heaps of rubble.

Sounds like carving chunks off to me.

None of you one eyed apologists have so far had the guts to give a straight answer to the question:

If YOUR homeland were surrounded by barbed wire and guns, and totally cut off from any outside contact, except by permission of those holding the guns, what would YOU do?

Tamely submit, or resist however ineffectually?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:24 AM

An Israeli military spokeswoman said she was checking the refugee camp attack. She said four rockets had been fired from Gaza since the truce started and two had crashed inside Israel. There were no reports of casualties or damage.


OK stooges:

What is 4 - 2 =?


Get an answer yet?



The OBSERVED misfire rate on Hamas rockets is 20-30% hitting Gaza overall.

The misfired missiles are ANTI-PERSONNEL warheads, designed to kill civilians.

The sources that the stooges keep giving NEVER state that ANY Gazans are killed by these missiles ( that kill Israelis when they are not in shelters) .

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: eddie1
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:16 AM

Hate to throw something else into this stinking melting-pot but.....

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/israels-bedouin-caught-between-iron-dome-and-hamas/375428/

This is a group of whom we hear little or nothing! Yet more suffering in this crazy war. In 2010 I interviewed Hala, a young Bedouin woman living in the Negev. Their life was bad enough then - but far worse now!

http://www.mixcloud.com/Communitymatters/sidreh/

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

Can they be met half way?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:48 AM

Ah, yes, Jim: your suggestion is a good one indeed. But, tho I think the Israelis might be persuaded to come to the UN conference table if the other side would too, I can't see the latter doing so -- or sticking by the terms of any 'agreement' that might be made. Who, after all, has broken every ceasefire to date? Their explicit policy -- indeed their declared raison-d'être -- is the complete destruction, not just of Israel, but of entire Jewry worldwide. They have even alienated all their natural support within the Arab world by such intransigence. And you think they'll meekly come to confer when the UN snaps its fingers. What's to 'negotiate', with such a basic declaration as instanced above anyhow? & re this UN 'peace force' to enforce ceasefire: are troops representing the UN to go in, fully armed, & fight the two sides to a standstill; or how is it to be encompassed?

Just asking

≈M≈

& how about an answer to that other question I have now asked you twice, in bold letters yet? Answer! Answer!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:25 AM

Are YOU saying it WAS?



How many opponents do you throw off a building to win a Palestinian election?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:24 AM

But for all the author's moral outrage -- outrage that is mirrored now across the world -- he declined to address the central charge that has been heard repeatedly over the years: How can Palestinian parents continue to support leaders within their community who would deliberately use their children as human shields? The fact that this Hamas war was provoked more to elevate Hamas' own standing than to achieve any concrete results -- beyond lifting an economic isolation that Hamas itself provoked -- makes the question of Palestinian passivity in that regard all the more troubling. There is nothing new about Hamas' tactics, and its leaders have been upfront about their willingness to sacrifice Palestinian children -- along with the rest of the civilian population -- in pursuit of their own strategic goals. Even as we watch image after image of stricken Palestinians mourning their dead children, we hear the corresponding words of a Hamas official: "What are 200 martyrs compared with lifting the siege?" Indeed, according to a paper in the Journal of Palestine Studies, Hamas--the elected government of Palestinians in Gaza--willfully sacrificed more that 160 Gazan children before any fighting in the digging of the tunnels themselves.

Within the progressive Jewish world -- where the anguish expressed in Golda Meir's words is deeply felt -- there is always an outcry when Israeli bombs kill Palestinian civilians, both out of moral outrage for the death and destruction and because of the ultimate bankruptcy of an Israeli strategy for which there is no endgame. But with each successive conflict, as Hamas missiles reach deeper into the country and the tunnels are deeper and longer, those voices become less vocal. While for some the broader conflicts in the region have emphasized the importance of pressuring Israel to remove settlements from confiscated Palestinian lands and live within its internationally accepted borders, for others the emergence of ISIS has only emphasized the long history of conflicts in the region and made the Hamas commitment to the destruction of Israel the sine qua non of the conflict. It is neither a metaphor nor a bargaining chip.

It is hard for many to accept the implications of that stance, but with each war Hamas aids our understanding and acceptance of their commitment. Indeed, Hamas has achieved what Bibi Netanyahu could not: it has forced progressive Jews to understand, if not accept, the logic of Israeli policies that they have long fought. Progressive Jews might have objected to Israel blocking the shipments of building materials and concrete into Gaza, but in this war the world has seen the complex network of tunnels built with an estimated six hundred thousand tons of concrete that we were told was urgently needed for schools and hospitals that were never built. Progressive Jews might have objected that Israeli was needlessly undermining Gaza economic development by preventing the development of a Gaza port, but the vast store of missiles is evidence that the boarded ships found to be filled with armaments intended to be used to kill Israelis were but the tip of the iceberg. Thus, the voices on the Jewish left have become muted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-paul/what-part-of-hamas-strate_b_5644341.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ringer
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:23 AM

"WE ARE QUOTING HAMAS. Which YOU claim was elected by the Gazans."

Er.. are you saying it wasn't, beardedbruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:19 AM

Jimmy boy,

"Quoting Islamic extremism is no more relevant that... "


WE ARE QUOTING HAMAS.

Which YOU claim was elected by the Gazans.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:01 AM

Clueless Kerry plays into hands of Hamas

— John Kerry is upset by heavy criticism from Israelis — left, right and center — of his recent cease-fire diplomacy. But that's only half the story. More significant is the consternation of America's Arab partners, starting with the president of the Palestinian Authority. Mahmoud Abbas was stunned that Kerry would fly off to Paris to negotiate with Hamas allies Qatar and Turkey in talks that excluded the PA and Egypt.

The talks also undermined Egypt's cease-fire proposal, which Israel had accepted and Hamas rejected. "Kerry tried through his latest plan to destroy the Egyptian bid," charged a senior Palestinian official quoted in the Arab daily Asharq Al-Awsat — a peace plan that the PA itself had supported.

It gets worse. Kerry did not just trample an Egyptian initiative. It was backed by the entire Arab League and specifically praised by Saudi Arabia. With the exception of Qatar — more a bank than a country — the Arabs are unanimous in wanting to see Hamas weakened, if not overthrown. The cease-fire they backed would have denied Hamas any reward for starting this war, while what Kerry brought back from Paris granted practically all of its demands.

Which is what provoked the severe criticism Kerry received at home, including from (among others) the scrupulously independent Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, who called Kerry's intervention a blunder.

Kerry seems oblivious to the strategic reality that Hamas launched its rockets in the hope not of defeating Israel but ending its intra-Arab isolation (which it brilliantly achieves in the Qatar-Turkey peace proposal). Hamas' radicalism has alienated nearly all of its Arab neighbors.

• Egypt cut off Gaza — indeed blockaded it — because of Hamas' support for the Muslim Brotherhood and terror attacks on Egyptian soldiers in Sinai.

• Fatah, the main element of the Palestinian Authority, is a bitter enemy, particularly since its Gaza members were terrorized, kneecapped, expelled and/or killed when Hamas seized Gaza in a 2007 coup.

• Hamas is non grata in Syria, where it had been previously headquartered, for supporting the anti-government rebels.

• Hamas is deeply opposed by Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states who see it, correctly, as yet another branch of the Islamist movement that threatens relatively moderate pro-Western Arab states.

Kerry seems not to understand that the Arab League backed the Egyptian cease-fire, which would have left Hamas weak and isolated, to ensure that Hamas didn't emerge from this war strengthened and enhanced.

Why didn't Kerry just stay home and declare unequivocal U.S. support for the Egyptian/Arab League plan? Instead, he flies off to Paris and sends Jerusalem a package of victories for Hamas: lifting the blockade from Egypt, opening the border with Israel, showering millions of foreign cash to pay the salaries of the 43,000 (!) government workers that the near-insolvent Hamas cannot.

Forget about Israeli interests. Forget about Arab interests. The American interest is to endorse and solidify this emerging axis of moderate pro-American partners (Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and other Gulf states, and the Palestinian Authority) intent on seeing Islamist radicalism blunted and ultimately defanged.

Yet America's own secretary of state doesn't see it. Speaking of Hamas-run Gaza, Kerry actually said in Paris: "The Palestinians can't have a cease-fire in which they think the status quo is going to stay." What must change? Gazans need "goods that can come in and out … a life that is free from the current restraints."

But the only reason for those "restraints," for goods unable to come in and out, is that for a decade Hamas has used this commerce to import and develop weapons for making war on Israel.

Remember the complaints that the heartless Israelis were not allowing enough imports of concrete for schools and hospitals? Well, now we know where the concrete went — into an astonishingly vast array of tunnels for infiltrating neighboring Israeli villages and killing civilians.

Lifting the blockade would mean a flood of arms, rockets, missile parts and other implements of terror for Hamas. What is an American secretary of state doing asserting that Hamas cannot cease fire unless it gets that?

Moreover, the fire from which Hamas will not cease consists of deliberate rocket attacks on Israeli cities — by definition, a war crime.

Whatever his intent, Kerry legitimized Hamas' war criminality. Which makes his advocacy of Hamas' terms not just a strategic blunder — enhancing an American-designated terror group just when a wall-to-wall Arab front wants to see it gone — but a moral disgrace.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-kerry-mideast-clueless-krauthammer-oped-0804-20140804-column.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:11 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28628682

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

The BBC journalist at the site said the impact was 30m outside the wall surrounding the school grounds.
Injured people filmed at the scene all happened to be young men.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 06:10 AM

"What 'suggestion' of yours have I got? repeat it, please."
That the U,N. should be given the job of conducting peace talks and until that happens they should send in a peace force to end this carnage.
Yesterday Israel shelled another U.N. refuge centre - same old same old loss of life.
They claimed to be targeting 2 Hamas fighters driving past on a motor cycle, but as whoever it was was blown to smithereens, we'll never know who they were
Ban Ky Moon has described it as "a criminal act"
We are still awaiting the result of another attack on a U.N Centre which killed 17 and wounded over 100.
It seems that what the Israelis are doing is slaughtering civilians then    saying "t was Hamas's fault for being there" - no evidence required.
Last week, they bombed a home, wiping out an entire family - five children, including a new-born baby (a future Hamas fighter, no doubt).
An Israeli ambassador told an audience of Americans that Israel should get a Nobel Peace Prize for the number of lives it has saved by exercising "restraint" - sicker and sicker.
A leading clergyman in Dublin had denounced Israel as war criminals that should be put on trial for its crimes
The times they certainly are a-changing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 05:57 AM

... and that not meant altogether as a trick question, Jim. I wonder myself, sometimes, whether I would have striven so to bring it about in my youth if I could have foreseen how it was all going to turn out. Seemed, as they say, a good idea at the time. But now constantly ask myself whether it really was so good an idea after all, or if we'd be better off if it hadn't happened. Blowed if I know the answer. Still, I say again, there it is and isn't going anywhere, so the questions can only be speculative whatiffery at that...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 05:06 AM

What 'suggestion' of yours have I got? repeat it, please.

I am not 'throwing in my lot' with anything or anyone. I am watching what is happening with a feeling of absolute helpless horror; not unmixed with amazement at all the people
--are you one? another honest answer please--
who will make a moral equivalence between the entity who have published their intention to wipe the other, and all it adherents & co-religionists worldwide, off the face of the earth; and the other lot who are trying to defend themselves from their doing so.

But you haven't answered my main question; only the subsidiary one. So, again Jim:

Is it your opinion that Israel should never have been allowed to exist in the first place -- Honest, now? Just a simple yes or a no will do...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 04:30 AM

"Eh, Jim? I can only take this to mean that Israel should now present Hamas with some more of its territory to fire some more rockets from?"
Then why not succumb to the wishes of the extremists - cut down all their fruit trees, break all their cameras and drive them out into the middle of the desert?
"In fact, Jim, would you be pleased if Israel were after all to be wiped off the map?"
You know damn well I wouldn't, and you are scraping the bottom of the barrel to suggest it
You have my suggestion - you sneer at it and have none of your own, so you throw your lot in with what is happening at present
Sorry Mike - this really is beneath you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 05:24 PM

"The lesson that it was nowhere near enough."
.,,.
Eh, Jim? I can only take this to mean that Israel should now present Hamas with some more of its territory to fire some more rockets from? If that isn't what it means, then what is?

In fact, Jim, would you be pleased if Israel were after all to be wiped off the map? You might reply that IYO it should never have existed in the first place [is that your opinion, in fact? Honest, now?*]. But one can only start from here, as the well known yokel asked the way couldn't quite grasp. And there it is, and is not voluntarily about to go away.

So, seriously -- what would you?

Mmmmm?

≈M≈

*and for Christ's sake leave lip·service and all such tendentious abuse out of your reply, & just give us a straight answer to a straight question for once

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 02:49 PM

Quoting Islamic extremism is no more relevant that my quoting those in Israel who have demanded that all Palestinians should be driven out of the area en-mass - plenty of examples to choose from.
After the last incursion there were many demanding that all Gazan electricity and water should be cut off, forcing the Gazans to pack up and go immediately.
During this present murderous bloodbath, many Israelis have demanded that the army "push on and finish the job".
I have watched and read many many interviews with Israelis wh have said there is no room for any non-Jews.
What's your point?
As far as I can see, one bunch of crazies are saying what they would do if they had their way, another bunch of crazies have been doing it for the last three weeks.
Let me see - eenie, meenie, miny.....
For crying out loud John - we've covered this ground - why not peep your head out of your bunker and see what is happening, not what might happen.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 02:12 PM

Hamas is making the most of the materials they have to hand, their own media outlet, the international media, the rockets they obtained over (or under) the Gaza-Egyptian border, the bodies of their people, the bodies of every Israeli victim they can obtain, and an overall strategy not unlike that of the Algerians in "Battle of Algiers".

Unfortunately for everyone, the ideological battle is kept alive by ignoring context. Ignoring the frequent attempts over the years to obtain a peace under the Aegis of America, and the many many attempts at terror from the Arabs.

The Palestinian people are not landholders with legal rights. They are DP (Displaced People). No one wants to take responsibility for them, and they are not making themselves an attractive proposition for anyone, least of all for Israel. Rather than seek an outlet where an outlet may be found or made, they double down on the proposition that they can get Israel down not to 1967 borders, but to pre-1948 non-existence.

Isolating Israel on the part of the world community, if that is what is going on, is only going to make things worse for the Palestinians. An insecure Israel is simply going to insist on an even less secure Palestine.

So there is a level at which the current festivities play to Israel's perception, that Hamas would rather shoot than talk, that every uninspected shipment to Gaza is suspect, that under the administration of Gaza by Hamas even construction materials are war materiel.

Israel tells Hamas you can keep your rockets

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 01:44 PM

Jim, for sure, and probably some others have tried to equate, obliquely, criticism of Israel by such as Einstein and Oz with anti-Semitism. Manifestly they are not anti-Semites. Here is a recent excerpt from Die Welt of an interview 9translated) with Amos Oz.

----------

[Q] You have been talking about a long-term solution. But what could a short-term agreement look like?
[A] The present hostilities will only stop, unfortunately, when one of the parties or both of them are exhausted. This morning I read very carefully the charter of Hamas. It says that the Prophet commands every Muslim to kill every Jew everywhere in the world. It quotes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion [anti-Semitic diatribe - the ed.] and says that the Jews controlled the world through the League of Nations and through the United Nations, that the Jews caused the two world wars and that the entire world is controlled by Jewish money. So I hardly see a prospect for a compromise between Israel and Hamas. I have been a man of compromise all my life. But even a man of compromise cannot approach Hamas and say: 'Maybe we meet halfway and Israel only exists on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.'

----------

Lest Jim, Steve (oh, I forgot he's not here anymore)or musket think I'm cherry-picking, I have provided both the German and English links for those who wish to read the entire interview:

http://www.dw.de/amos-oz-israel-kann-nur-verlieren/a-17823004

http://www.dw.de/oz-lose-lose-situation-for-israel/a-17822511

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 01:38 PM

"Honest, now, if you were the Knesset, or any member of the population of Israel, what lessons would you draw from that sequence of events?"
The lesson that it was nowhere near enough.
Gaza is a ghetto - it is now being referred to as the world's largest open prison.
Expecting people to continue living in those circumstances is inhuman.
Israel's 'concessions' were, in fact a demand of surrender to the status quo - would you have expected that of the residents of the Warsaw Ghetto to have been grateful for such a concession - "we won't let any more of our people take over your homes and we'll remove a handful of those that have moved in unofficially - oh, and by the way, we reserve the right to decide which leaders govern you?
Personally, the way the Israeli regime has behaved and counting the dead (Keith and co have noticeably refused to acknowledge that rather unpleasant fact, other than to give it their full support) I think the Palestinians would be insane to accept anything less than the removal of the blockade and the Berlin walls and having the U.N. on hand to see that this does not happen again.
I suggest you read what the supports of Israel have contributed here if you want some idea of how suicidal it would be to settle for anything less - these people are inhuman.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 01:18 PM

And you sound more like a vulgar, foul-mouthed little yobbo, I regret to observe, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 12:39 PM

"Gaza does not have to be at war with Israel, and if it were not there would be no blockade."
You mean surrender itself to being a permanent ghetto
Piss of Keith - you sound more like Lord Haw-Haw with every posting
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:36 AM

Another reminder as to the "elected" government of Hamas:

Hamas won a PLURALITY (not majority) in a LEGISLATIVE election in 2006. The directly elected President (in 2005) was (and remained) Abbas. The election results were 44% for Hamas and 41% for Fatah. After Hamas failed to form a government, about a year after the election, Hamas and Fatah reached a power-sharing unity government under the Mecca Agreement (brokered by the Saudis). Then in June of 2007 Hamas perpetrated a violent coup (throwing Fatah officials off roof-tops) and illegally seized all power. Only about 20% of the PA population supported this military takeover.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:36 AM

I suppose in the vernacular, an elected government can be said to "seize power."

They won a majority of seats on the Palestinian Legislative Council, not a mandate to rule Gaza.
They achieved that through a violent coup.

That said, Israel would never lift the blockade anyway, as any serious observer would notice.

They have eased it considerably.
They used to prohibit building materials because Hamas might use them to build military infrastructure, and they did.

Gaza declared war and Israel declared a blockade as any country would.
The difference is that most countries would apply a total blockade against a belligerent, not just an economic one.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:30 AM

There was no blockade when Israel quit Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:02 AM

Another reminder of a bit of quite recent "historical fact".

2004-05

The Israeli Government wanted to make concessions to the Palestinians. So they resolved to withdraw the entire Israeli presence from the Gaza Strip, bordering the Sinai Peninsula, neighbouring Egypt. They had forcibly to evict the inhabitants of some settlements who declined to leave voluntarily, and rehouse them in other parts of Israel ~~ not entirely to their delight!

Then they left Gaza to govern itself. So the Palestinian population organised and held free elections.

And who did they elect to govern them?

Why, Hamas -- who else?

With results that we are all on about here.

Honest, now, if you were the Knesset, or any member of the population of Israel, what lessons would you draw from that sequence of events?

Just asking --

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:01 AM

I suppose in the vernacular, an elected government can be said to "seize power." Although the only reason you would say it is that they have a single focus, for which they had no mandate, to agitate and force the backers of Israel to think again. In that, Hamas are forcing the issue. That said, Israel would never lift the blockade anyway, as any serious observer would notice. It was there before Hamas were elected.

I am reading Political diaries and by coincidence, one diarist is noting January 2009 when Israel tried bombing a democratically elected government. He notes that The UK voted for a UN resolution for a ceasefire but The USA abstained, the first time we voted differently to The USA regarding Israeli aggression. Hamas said they weren't bound by the ceasefire as they hadn't been consulted. As bad as they are, and as cynical as I am over their aims, over and above the peace that Palestinians crave for, you can't help noticing the arrogance of many Western countries, ignoring elected governments when they don't like them and supporting dictatorships when it suits.

The diarist also notes that Egypt and Saudi Arabia (remembering this was five years ago) did as they were told by The USA in the same way the maharajas and rajas did when we ran India.

Move forward five years and one thing has changed. Israeli atrocities are front page news and that makes politicians sit up and think.

Right now, they are thinking of the latest bombing of a school run by The UN. Obviously, the Israeli militants decided the world wasn't outraged enough when it happened last week so they chose another.

Steve Shaw is right though. I should leave blood to the bloodthirsty. Terrorism to the terrorist sympathisers.

Have you noticed that when you point out how Mudcat is being infiltrated by extremists and bigots, it is they who accuse decent people of the same? Guess which minister of propaganda used that tactic in the '30s?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:35 AM

Just a reminder:

The rockets are not because of the blockade, the blockade is because of the rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:20 AM

Jim, Israel is not cutting bits off Gaza.
Gaza does not have to be at war with Israel, and if it were not there would be no blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 08:27 AM

Why so abusive, Jim? What good you think it does your side of the argument?

As to "historical fact". My History teacher for Higher Schools, back in the 1940s, used to say that, properly speaking, "every history essay should begin with Adam & Eve". We all knew what he meant.

So where, historically, should this thread begin:
1200 BC (Moses)?
135 AD (Hadrian's diaspora)?
1880s-90s (beginning of Jewish immigration)?
1896 (Theodor Herzl's 'The Jewish State')?
1917 (Balfour Declaration)?
1948 (Declaration of State in accordance with UN Resolution followed by invasion by all surrounding Arab states)?...

It really doesn't do to oversimplify...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 08:07 AM

"Gaza would probably be a prosperous region and tourist destination."
At the rate Israel was cutting chunks off it, it would probably ended up as a beach with a couple of ice-cream kiosks - don't think I've ever come across such a total misinterpretation of historical fact.
"Hamas chose that."
War was a fact of life for Palestinians before Hamas was a twinkle in anybody's eye.
You really are not earning your Shekels - do your homework, you nasty little man, or you'll have to stay behind and do 100 lines after school!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:59 AM

"Never Again" for Anyone

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:24 AM

If Hamas had not seized power, Gaza would probably be a prosperous region and tourist destination.
There is no reason why Gaza has to be at war with Israel.
Hamas chose that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 05:53 AM

"Hamas chose to make war on Israel."
Utter Crap - Israel started by clearing Arabs out of Palestine before the birth of the state - Nine years of blockade have made the lives of ordinary Palestinians intolerable - israel is now making war on women nd children - go count the dead.
Whatever Hamas might be, it has done nothing but offer resistance to Israeli aggression.
Your example is as as offensively disgusting as is your on-going support for genocide and ethnic cleansing.
A letter from the Sunday Times - which will be ignored by you and your as has every Jewish statement made in opposition to what is happening
"TRAGIC IRONY
My own family were lucky to flee from Austria in 1938. Of my 14 relatives who didn't, 13 were killed in concentration camps; the 14th had earlier been beaten to death in the street. Nowadays when I voice my dismay at what Israel is doing I get called Snti-semitic.
George Solt,
Olney,
Buckinghamshire"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 04:00 AM

Hamas chose to make war on Israel.
They target civilians but can not be stopped without killing more civilians.

A maniac drives into a playground and starts shooting, but he has filled the car with his own kids.

Should you take the shot, or wait until he runs out of live kids or bullets?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 03:54 AM

I'll leave them with the sound of Vin Garbutt singing " When the Tide Turns"

Israel's moral high ground has been completely and undeniably shattered now and Western leaders are falling over each other to be seen to be at one with their voters who are sickened by this.

There is at last a level playing field where both Israel and Hamas are seen as two sides of the same bomb. That is constructive as The USA are less prone to be one sided when peace terms are discussed. Israel has to do what the money tells it to do and Hamas have to see how the rest of the Middle East are pissed off with them.

I hope Israel can afford the bill for reconstructing Gaza. That is the eventual reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 03:43 AM

"Just forget this God-forsaken thread and let the scumbags backwoodsman,"
I go along with that - they are doing a far better job of exposing Israel as the war criminal she is than we ever could.
It will be sickeningly interest to see how they deal with the claim of "defence" when the final body-bag count of all those dangerously aggressive Palestinian civilians - all those women and children particularly must have been a threat to be reckoned with!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 11:37 PM

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion or The Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion is an antisemitic hoax purporting to describe a Jewish plan for global domination. It was first published in Russia in 1903, translated into multiple languages, and disseminated internationally in the early part of the 20th century. Henry Ford funded printing of 500,000 copies that were distributed throughout the US in the 1920s.

Adolf Hitler and the Nazis publicized the text as though it were a valid document, although it had already been exposed as fraudulent. After the Nazi Party came to power in 1933, it ordered the text to be studied in German classrooms. The historian Norman Cohn suggested that Hitler used the Protocols as his primary justification for initiating the Holocaust—his "warrant for genocide"

The Protocols purports to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies. It is still widely available today and even now sometimes presented as a genuine document, whether on the Internet or in print in numerous languages.

The Protocols is a fabricated document purporting to be factual. It was originally produced in Russia between 1897 and 1903, possibly by Pyotr Ivanovich Rachkovsky, head of the Paris office of the Russian Secret Police, and unknown others.

More Here

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 11:30 PM

Hitler and Haj Amin al-Husseini together

The Nazi Hamzar Muslim troops

The Elders Of Zion Propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 11:05 PM

Hamas Spokesman on CNN says Israel Acting Just Like the Nazis

Oh Really?

The Mufti's Conversation with Hitler
(November 28, 1941)

Haj Amin al-Husseini, the most influential leader of the Arabs in Palestine, lived in Germany, during the Second World War He met Hitler. Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders on various occasions and attempted to coordinate Nazi and Arab policies in the Middle East. The following is a record of a conversation between the Fuhrer and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, in the Presence of Reich Foreign Minister and Minister Grobba in Berlin.

The Grand Mufti began by thanking the Fuhrer for the great honor he had bestowed by receiving him. He wished to seize the opportunity to convey to the Fuhrer of the Greater German Reich, admired by the entire Arab world, his thanks for the sympathy which he had always shown for the Arab and especially the Palestinian cause, and to which he had given clear espressos in his public speeches. The Arab countries were firmly convinced that Germany would win the war and that the Arab cause would then prosper: The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies as had Germany, namely the English, the Jews, and the Communists. They were therefore prepared to cooperate with Germany with all their hearts and stood ready to participate in the war, not only negatively by the commission of acts of sabotage and the instigation of revolutions, but also positively by the formation of an Arab Legion. The Arabs could he more useful to Germany as allies than might he apparent at first glance, both for geographical reasons and because of the suffering inflicted upon them by the English and the Jews. Furthermore, they had had close relations with all Moslem nations, of which they could make use in behalf of the common cause. The Arab Legion would he quite easy to raise. An appeal by the Mufti to the Arab countries and the prisoners of Arab, Algerian,Tunisian, and Moroccan nationality in Germany would produce a great number of volunteers eager to fight. Of Germany's victory the Arab world was firmly convinced, not only because the Reich possessed a large army, brave soldiers, and military leaders of genius, but also because the Almighty could never award the victory to an unjust cause.

In this struggle, the Arabs were striving for the independence and unity of Palestine, Syria and Iraq. They had the fullest confidence in the Fuhrer and looked to his hand for the balm on their wounds which had been inflicted upon them by the enemies of Germany.

The Mufti then mentioned the letter he had received from Germany, which stated that Germany was holding no Arab territories and understood and recognized the aspirations to independence and freedom of the Arabs, just as she supported the elimination of the Jewish national home.

A public declaration in this sense would be very useful for its propagandistic effect on the Arab peoples at this moment. It would rouse the Arabs from their momentary lethargy and give them new courage. It would also ease the Mufti's work of secretly organizing the Arabs against the moment when they could strike. At the same time, he could give the assurance that the Arabs would in strict discipline patiently wait for the right moment and only strike upon an order from Berlin.

With regard to the events in Iraq, the Mufti observed that the Arabs in that country certainly had by no means been incited by Germany to attack England, but solely had acted in reaction to a direct English assault upon their honor.

The Turks, he believed, would welcome the establishment of' an Arab government in the neighboring territories because they would prefer weaker Arab to strong European governments in the neighboring countries, and, being themselves a nation of 7 million, they had moreover nothing to fear from the 1.700,000 Arabs inhabiting Syria. Transjordan, Iraq. and Palestine.

France likewise would have no objections to the unification plan because she had conceded independence to Syria as early as 1936 and had given her approval to the unification of Iraq and Syria under King Faisal as early as 1933.

The Fuhrer replied that Germany's fundamental attitude on these questions, as the Mufti himself had already stated. was clear. Germany stood for uncompromising war against the Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine. which was nothing other than a center, in the form of a state, for the exercise of destructive influence by Jewish interests. Germany was also aware that the assertion that the Jews were carrying out the function of economic pioneers in Palestine was a lie. The work there was done only by the Arabs, not by the Jews. Germany was resolved, step by step, to ask one European nation after the other to solve its Jewish problem, and at the proper time direct a similar appeal to non-European nations as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:48 PM

To the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:37 PM

Speech broadcast on Palestinian TV, April 20, 2007 by Dr. Ahmad Bahar of Hamas, Deputy speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council:

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation. Make us victorious over the infidels. Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don't leave even one."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:45 PM

Troubadour, Jim, Greg, Musket and all the other right-minded people here, just forget this God-forsaken thread and let the scumbags backwoodsman, beardedbruce, bobad, Keith and Sunset John and any of the other unreconstructed bigots I've missed out just carry on talking poison to each other. No-one is listening to them in any case. I'm not coming here any more. I recommend you do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:10 PM

And so it goes on!

People just like you, ignoring the real issue of hundreds of dead bodies from both sides, and desperately trying to pin blame on each other.

Bigots and xenophobes there AND HERE!
Do you ever think to question the word of your own preferred side? NO YOU DON'T!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:36 PM

Ahmed, Hamid, and Jasser said they are frustrated by the international media, which offers sensational sound bites and ignores the full picture.

"Many people look at what is happening in Gaza as if Israel is the aggressor. But when you think deeply, Egypt offered a cease-fire and Israel immediately accepted it. It was supposed to start on July 5 at 9 a.m. Hamas refused the cease-fire. The full responsibility for any killings after July 5 lies with Hamas," Hamid said.

He added that Hamas accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing of Muslims, and the U.S. of being anti-Islam. But he said what is not reported is the number of mosques that exist in both Israel and America.

"Israel is fighting an impossible battle, on one front with nihilist political Islamists who willingly lead their populations to slaughter in the interest of religionized war for fictionalized spiritual gain rather than true political solution," she said. "An on another front, waging other battles with an international media reflecting an increasingly ignored and biased public opinion."

Ahmed added, "The sooner media commentary can be broadened to explain political Islamism, diplomatic and political powers globally can begin to plan the true long-term freedom of the Palestinians… a lasting liberation from the stranglehold of Hamas's political Islamism."

Pro-Israel Muslims Seek Alternative to Radical Islam as a Means for Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 03:30 PM

"He just wants to be able to blame Israel even when they are not guilty."
Are you off your ******* head?
If they didn't kill the 1500 Palestinians, who did?
You peole are sickos - one presents cooked figured from an Israeli site, to prove dead children weren't really children, the other denies the killers aren't guilty, even though we've been watching it and reading about it for three weeks.
Another siclko on your team is little Booboo, who revels in the fact that these murdering bastards have a successful arms indusrty
From the Gathering weight thread
The US aid to Israel and the sale of US weapons to Israel HAS to stop COMPLETELY!
If the US stops forcing Israel to buy its weapons, then Israel will be able to use it's own ingenuously manufactured weapons, which will give Israel's economy a MASSIVE boost. Israel's "alliance" with the US is detrimental and crippling to Israel on all fronts, especially the economic front.
A brilliant piece by Canadian journalist Lawrence Solomon on the subject:
ISRAEL'S ARMS INDUSTRY
What he forgot to mention is who Israel's potential customers were.
ISRAEL'S ARMS CUSTOMERS?
What kind of people are they who try to sell arms to a racist/terrorist regime, and what kind of people lie to support them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 02:34 PM

UN Blasted for Giving Rockets Found in Gaza School to Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 02:10 PM

He just wants to be able to blame Israel [for dead Palestinians] even when they are not guilty.

So Bullshot: the IDF   ISN'T firing those tank rounds and staging those air strikes?

Oh yeah, I forgot - its the Tralfamadorians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 12:55 PM

Jimmy Boy does not care about the facts, or about dead Palestinian children-

He just wants to be able to blame Israel even when they are not guilty.



"the murder of up to a thousand Palestinian civilians by using them as humans shields and raining over 400 anti-personnel warheads upon them, while taking the concrete that could have been used for civilian shelters ( as done in Israel) to make tunnels to attack the civilian population of Israel."

OK my the Stooges- THEY will blame them all on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 11:46 AM

Look directly at the Al Jazeera list and count them.
Then count men of military age.
We have the facts, it is just about interpretation.

If they are "mostly civilians" as all the media keep saying, why are the figures so skewed towards young men?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:56 AM

"You are desperate to discredit the truth Jim, because it does not accord with your prejudices and preconceptions."
Yeah - sure I am, and you are determined to prove that the children being slaughtered aren't really children (again).
maybe you'll get round to showing that all the dead women are really Hamas in drag - that should get Ake hammering on the door saying it's all a homosexual plot!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:34 AM

That Al Jazeera list provided by Hamas is the data portrayed in the graphs.

You are desperate to discredit the truth Jim, because it does not accord with your prejudices and preconceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:16 AM

Your Al Jazeera list means nothing presented as you just have - as I said your comes from a sie notorious for dishonest and intimidation - it point out that it was lifted from a pro-Israeli blog.
Read the fine print
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:12 AM

"The figures come from a blog from a pro Israel site"
An afterthought in all this.
Producing a graph purporting that the children being slaughtered at this time are not really children is about as stomach-heaving as it gets.
Some time ago you indulged yourself in a similar piece of despicability.
During the discussion around that disturbing piece of film showing Palestinian children saying they would like to kill Israelis (hardly surprising in the light of what is happening at present) you were shown another piece of film showing Israeli children of three and four times the age of the Palestinian children, being shown around a military establishment, shown how to handle weapons, and stating they would like to kill Palestinians
Your response - the Israeli youths were children being children, that Palestinian CHILDREN were likely to turn out terrorists
Personally, it makes little difference to me what age these victims are - they are people, and it's about time you toe-rags got your heads around that fact
You describe Israeli deaths in this present conflict as "unprecedented due to the care they are taking not to kill civilians" despite the vast discrepency in their numbers.
You have said that "Israel does not lie".
You and your team quote uncritically directly from Israeli/Zionist propaganda sites.
Can I suggest that if you are going to ear your Shekels as self-appointed propagandist for the Israeli regime, you are really going to have to try to be a little less obvious
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

A recommended read from Howard Jacobsen, British writer and op-ed columnist for The Independent. Recommended for everyone but especially for some of our British and Irish posters who might gain some small measure of insight from it.

Howard Jacobson: Let's see the 'criticism' of Israel for what it really is

When it comes to Israel we hear no good, see no good, speak no good. We turn our backsides to what we do not want to know about and bury it in distaste, like our own ordure. We did it and go on doing it with all official contestation of the mortality figures provided by Hamas. We do it with Hamas's own private executions and their policy of deploying human shields. We do it with the sotto voce admission by the UN that "a clerical error" caused it to mis-describe the bombing of that UN school which at the time was all the proof we needed of Israel's savagery. It now turns out that Israel did not bomb the school at all. But there's no emotional mileage in a correction. The libel sticks, the retraction goes unnoticed.

But I am not allowed to ascribe any of this to anti-Semitism. It is criticism of Israel, pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

No Jim.
YOU did not read.
The analysis was done on this list of casualties from Al Jazeera.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 06:32 AM

Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati said he was able to speak freely about witnessing a Hamas misfire that killed nine children at the Shati camp, confirming the Israel Defense Forces version of events, but only after leaving Gaza, "far from Hamas retaliation."

On Twitter, Barbati, Jerusalem Correspondent for Radio Popolare Milano, and a former reporter for Sky Italia, in Beijing, said, "Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday [yesterday] in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris."

He said, "@IDFSpokesperson said truth in communique released yesterday about Shati camp massacre. It was not #Israel behind it."

On Tuesday, the IDF released aerial photos showing how a rocket from Gaza targeting Israel hit the Shati camp, run by the UNRWA, and Al Shifa Hospital, which has become a de-facto Hamas headquarters, against international rules of war.

Barbati said he was unable to speak about the Al Shifa hit, but he was certain that it was a Hamas rocket that hit the Shati camp, and a witness saw militants rushing to clean the debris.

Italian Journalist Defies Hamas: 'Out of Gaza Far From Hamas Retaliation: Misfired Rocket Killed Children in Shati'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 06:26 AM

"The figures come from Hamas and are the ones quoted by UN."
The figures come from a blog from a pro Israel site ISRAELLCOOL and is printed with permission - read your own postings.
Honest Reporting is a pro-Israeli propaganda site with an unsavoury reputation for inaccuracy and incitement to persecution
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:56 AM

The figures come from Hamas and are the ones quoted by UN.
Check them.
They just displayed them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:39 AM

"graphical analysis here."
Your analysis comes from 'Honest Reporting Defending Israel from media bias' (their own description)
Jim Carroll

Honest reporting
The American Journalism Review described the organisation as a "pro-Israeli pressure group".[6]
After being criticized by HonestReporting for articles published by The Independent, author Robert Fisk wrote in the Independent that some of their readers sent him hate-mail.[7]
Following a 2004 article published in the British Medical Journal which criticised Israel for a high level of Palestinian civilian casualties and claimed that the pattern of injuries suggested routine targeting of children in situations of minimal or no threat, the journal received over 500 responses to its website and nearly 1,000 sent directly to its editor. In an analysis of the responses published in the journal, Karl Sabbagh concluded that the correspondence was orchestrated by Honest Reporting and aimed at silencing legitimate criticism of Israel. In his analysis Sabbagh pointed to evidence that that the correspondents had not read the article. Sabbagh also documented a significant proportion of offensive, abusive and racist insults among the correspondence. An editorial by the BMJ referred to the campaign as bullying and said that the best way to counter such behaviour was to expose it to public scrutiny.[8][9] Daniel Finkelstein, associate editor of The Times, responded that Sabbagh's piece was "anti-Israel propaganda" that did not meet even "basic academic standards" of scientific analysis.[10]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:35 AM

Jim, Hamas supplies the figures to UN, and tells them how many were civilians.
They have been known to lie, and did lie about this last time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:27 AM

"Because that's from Hamas which he unquestioningly believes."
No - because that is what is being reported from the human rights groups and U.N. agencies, which people like you have described as being Antisemitic.
Somewhere between 50 and 70 Palestinians died and around 200 were injured almost immediately following the breaking of the ceasefire yesterday.
Considering Israeli policy is to kill and destroy everything in range, 1,000 dead civilians is a pretty poor showing for them - back to the practice-range when they get home.
It really is worth reading what Troubadour has just written
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:14 AM

graphical analysis here.
http://honestreporting.com/analysis-of-gazans-killed-so-far-in-operation-protective-edge/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:06 AM

Troubadour, do read this Time magazine piece from 3 days ago with an open mind.
Perhaps you missed it earlier.

"Analyses of the casualties listed in the daily reports published by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, a Gaza-based organization operating under Hamas rule, indicate that young males ages 17 to 30 make up a large portion of the fatalities, and a particularly noticeable spike occurs between males ages 21 to 27, a pattern consistent with the age distribution typically found among combatants and military conscripts. Palestinian sources attempt to conceal this discrepancy with their public message by labeling most of these young men as civilians. Only a minority is identified as members of armed groups. As a result, the PCHR calculates civilian fatalities at 82% as of July 26. PCHR provides the most detailed casualty reports of the various Palestinian agencies from Gaza that provide figures to the media and to international organizations like the UN. Its figures closely match those of the Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry and other groups.

We have seen this before. A similar dispute over casualty figures occurred during Israel's "Operation Cast Lead" in the Gaza Strip in January 2009. The Israelis contended that the majority of the fatalities were combatants; the Palestinians claimed they were civilians. The media and international organizations tended to side with the Palestinians. The UN's own investigatory commission headed by Richard Goldstone, which produced the Goldstone Report, cited PCHR's figures along with other Palestinian groups providing similar figures. Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report. "
http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:16 PM

You lot fucking disgust me!

You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Conducting a pissing contest over the dead bodies of men, women and children, whether Israeli, Palestinian or any other nationality.

You are all seriously in need of psychiatric help.

They are all human beings for fucks sake, and all you can do is try to score points off each other.

The Israeli government and Hamas differ only in the vast disparity in military might, which renders talk of self defence moot.

But you lot are worse than any of them, because you all condone the actions of one pack of murderers or the other.

One of you spoke of the majority of dead Gazans being men of military age. The sly implication being both obvious and WRONG.

Well 40% of Gaza's population are under 14 and UNICEF estimates 30% of casualties are children, then there's the many women killed.

A shell fired into Gaza has a 50/50 chance of hitting a child, but that chance is getting smaller as they are killed off.

Hamas' actions are indefensible, as well as ineffective, but if somebody surrounded your country with barbed wire, ask yourself how you would react.

As long as people like you continue to take a hard line partisan stance, these conflicts will never end.

Both sides have to give some concessions, not demand abject, humiliating complete surrender.

You people have turned this forum into a cesspit I no longer wish to visit.

Thanks a BUNCH!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:15 PM

Two reporters in Gaza for The Wall Street Journal have deleted photographs that implicate Hamas in war crimes

And you know this to be true .....HOW?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:58 PM

Two reporters in Gaza for The Wall Street Journal have deleted photographs that implicate Hamas in war crimes, namely using the Al Shifa hospital as a military headquarters, and media watchdog CAMERA, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, on Tuesday asked them why the posts were removed? So far, CAMERA has received no answers from the reporters or from their editors, but the group said the deleted posts might be further evidence of Hamas intimidating journalists.

Media Watchdog Asks Why WSJ Reporters Deleted Twitter Photos Implicating Hamas in War Crimes

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:55 PM

A television reporter from Finland's Helsingin Sanomat, the "Helsinki Dispatch," spent the night reporting from Gaza's Al Shifa Hospital, where she saw Hamas militants launching a rocket from the hospital's parking lot, confirming a war crime that few journalists have dared report.

Using hospitals, schools and mosques to store weapons or as a military base is against international rules of war. The Al Shifa Hospital, in particular, has been an area of focus after journalists reported that Hamas was using the hospital as a headquarters, but many of their reports were withdrawn, deleted on social media or actually taken off their newspaper websites because of fears for their safety and retribution from Hamas for reporting the truth.


Finnish TV Reporter at Gaza's Al Shifa Hospital: 'It's True That Rockets Are Launched Here From the Gazan Side Into Israel'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:51 PM

Clearly the cease-fire provided the opportunity Hamas wanted to perform this operation. Their acceptance of the cease-fire – including the terms that IDF soldiers can keep their positions, which Hamas knew were near a hidden tunnel entrance – can only be described as a well-planned ruse for this attack, Hamas' most sought-after prize. These were not conditions that Hamas would normally accept.

Hamas Accepted the 'Truce' Specifically to Kidnap a Soldier

Israel should now make any future ceasefire or cessation of hostilities contingent on the release of the kidnapped soldier. If Hamas refuses Israel should continue until Hamas is decimated.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 04:40 PM

"How do you know that a thousand civilians have died Jim."

Because that's from Hamas which he unquestioningly believes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 04:37 PM

How do you know that a thousand civilians have died Jim.
Did you read any of that piece from Time magazine pointing out that most happened to be men of military age?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 04:02 PM

"Israel has yet to live down the massacre of 1,000 civilians"

You mean that HAMAS has yet to live down the murder of up to a thousand Palestinian civilians by using them as humans shields and raining over 400 anti-personnel warheads upon them, while taking the concrete that could have been used for civilian shelters ( as done in Israel) to make tunnels to attack the civilian population of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:57 PM

"Jimmy, Glad you finally realize that you ONLY get the news that you are supposed to"
Have realised no such thing
I understand the peace was broken during a clash between armed Israeli soldiers on active duty bumping into a bunch of Hamas - didn't realise that soldiers could keep soldiering during a n agrees ceasefire.
It remains to be seen whether has lost anything, Israel has yet to live down the massacre of 1,000 civilians

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:21 PM

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gaza-conflict-entering-dangerous-uncharted-164438373.html


Hamas may have just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:02 PM

Greggie boy

YOU have no idea what I read, or believe.


YOU, on the other hand, have stated that YOU believe "Black, and a Democrat" is the same as "Dumb Ni**er"

Maybe your fellow stooges here should be aware of that: They will be judged by the company they keep.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:46 PM

Bullshot, you ONLY believe the news that you want to, EVEN IF you read a multitude of sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:03 PM

"we are a backward, third world country here and not privy to such information"

Jimmy, Glad you finally realize that you ONLY get the news that you are supposed to, UNLESS you read a number of sources- Al Jazeera, BBC, WashPo, and yes, The Israel Times.

EACH will leave out what it does not want you to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 11:39 AM

"I can't see any future for a short-term peace agreement unless it comes with an indication of a willingness to discuss the blockade, the checkpoints and the walls "


Of course YOU can't. It was an humanitarian ceasefire, to allow for tending to wounded and getting food and supplies for civilians.

No wonder at all that you do not think it was worthwhile.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 11:28 AM

"Hamas broke the truce. Just saying."
Given the circumstances John, I'm not surprised in the least.
I am no respecter of Hamas (despite claims to the contrary) but in the light of what has happened over the last couple of weeks, I can't see any future for a short-term peace agreement unless it comes with an indication of a willingness to discuss the blockade, the checkpoints and the walls - without that, those who died would have done so only for the situation to return to where it was.
Gaza is now being referred to, on this side of the pond as 'the world's largest open-air prison' - nobody is willingly going to respond to; "Come in convict number 324657980 - your time's up".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 11:12 AM

You just don't have the gift od second sight, like Boo, Bullshot, and FWK, Jim.

Its a gift, tha knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 11:08 AM

Well Jim, a half hour or so after your post at 8:24A our top of the hour ABC News stated that Hamas broke the truce. Just saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:24 AM

"Well, it took all of 90 minutes for the terrorists to breach the ceasefire."
Not sure whether you mean the Israeli "terrorists" or the Palestinian "terrorists" - nope, I'm lying, I know exactly who you mean.
Our news announcer has just announced that it is not known who broke the truce - but then again - we are a backward, third world country here and not privy to such information!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:22 AM

Gee, Boo - nowhere in that heart-warming made-up story with no documentation whatever does it explain how the man ended up in chains.

Perhaps he had been interrogated by the IDF or Mossad?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:58 AM

Well, if you thought the stories about the Hamas were not true regarding the forcing of Palestinian civilians to stay in the locations where the IDF will strike, think again…actually in this case you don't need to think, just look.

This is a Palestinian civilian of Gaza who apparently has a mental disorder and who was found by an IDF soldier, bound, gagged and staved. This is a tactic of the Hamas. He would have eventually died from either starvation or an IDF strike on this location if it contained terrorists or weapons, which is what the Hamas wanted to happen.

Luckily there was no strike and this humane IDF soldier found him and freed him, then gave him water

IDF Soldier Helps Chained & Starving Palestinian Man In Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:52 AM

Well, it took all of 90 minutes for the terrorists to breach the ceasefire.

An Israeli soldier was abducted in the Rafah area of Gaza, in an attack perpetrated some 90 minutes after the onset of a truce, an IDF spokesman said Friday.

The attack, which included a suicide bombing and involved enemy gunmen emerging from a tunnel shaft, came at 9:30 in the morning, during the early hours of what was to have been a 72-hour truce, and may signal a significant escalation in the 25-day-old war with Gaza.

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:30 AM

I don't care what Hamas subscribes to - I don't support Hamas and never have.
I am concerned with human beings and what is happening to them - not a century ago, but now.
Go and squabble about maps somewhere else.
"Why not try convincing Hamas to stop attacking Israel?"
Count the dead women and children, the destroyed hospitals and schools, the devestated homes and work out for yourself who is attacking who - it really isn't difficult.
"Neither Keith A or myself ever stated that we approved of anything of the sort."
"all you have come up with is some sniper rifles"
"Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it."
"Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferable to live rounds"
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots."
All in relation to the sale of military equipment to a dictator in the process of slaughtering his people is approval enough for me.
"Export Licence applied for and approved in 2009"
Move in the right direction I suppose - you have always claimed it was never approved.
Assad was murdering and torturing for at least ten years before the Arab spring demonstrations - he should never have been sold military equipment in the first place - but are you seriously claiming that snipers shooting down Syrians in 2011 could not have been trained two years earlier - are you out of your mind?
The officers directing the slaughter would have had to be seasoned veterans - receiving their training - when exactly (please don't try to bluff your way with pseudo military bullshit - leave it for the pub tonight)?
It boils down to a simple point really - Britain shouldn't sell anything to fascist thugs - we were aware of Assad's human rights record and his torture chambers yet he was sold arms and equipment).
"Where? When?"
You didn't claim that Pinochet overthrew an elected government murdered those he did because the ignored the constitution?
Must have been somebody else posting in your name.   
He was a soldier and he headed an extremely bloody military coup, slaughtering thousands in the process - Thatcher, by describing what he did as "democratic", supported that coup and the results of it - you by denying her part in it and by describing Pinochet as "Good/Bad, just like Cromwell" supported what both Pinochet and Thatcher were - political thugs - enough to confirm my opinions of you.
"studiously ignored..." -nothing - I have given my opinion over and over again on all the questions you have raised
You have a habit of ignoring answers then claiming they have not been given.
The only tangible point you have made is that the Gazans should surrender and throw themselves at the mercy of the people who have just butchers over a thousand of them, destroyed their homes schools and hospitals and are set fair to do so all over again if their demands aren't met
Sorry - no time to waste on right-wing headbangers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:53 AM

"Fuck your maps and your claims of Hamas and israel"

Not MY maps Christmas - those linked to are the maps displayed by Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and by Fatah. They all have duped you useful idiots into believing that they seek a Two-State Solution - so where is Israel on THEIR maps? Doesn't exist does it, which is why the Israelis are fighting.

"Both the Muslims and the Jews have occupied these lands for millennia, both have an equal right to a peaceful life there"

YES precisely, now get me any quote from any member of the Leadership of Hamas who subscribes to that. The second they do they will have peace with Israel (Don't take my word for it ask the Egyptians, ask the Jordanians ask Mahmoud Abbas)

"Why in gods name should I have to explain anything"

Ehmmm Christmas because that is what you are generally supposed to do in the process of discussion or debate - you Muppet. By the way I would love to see any quote from anything that I have written that illustrates my "support" for General Augusto Pinochet - As for Margaret Thatcher certainly IMHO she was one of the best peacetime Prime Ministers Great Britain has ever had.

"Legally purchased - 1847 and 1919" my arse, let's see a way to stop thugs bombing hospitals and slaughtering patients,

Why not try convincing Hamas to stop attacking Israel?

"Your selling weapons or equipment to Assad was another of your monumental foot-in-mouths."

Care to supply any proof that I have sold any weapons or equipment to Assad

"Whether it was 'sniper rifles' (identified by Keith as such ""You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.") or sniper bullets is immaterial - both you and he approved of their sale to Assad at the time his snipers were slaughtering the people of Homs."

Oh dear Christmas, not very good at details are you? Neither Keith A or myself ever stated that we approved of anything of the sort. There is actually no evidence to support your contention that any sale ever took place - only that an export licence had been granted. As for this bit:

"...both you and he approved of their sale to Assad at the time his snipers were slaughtering the people of Homs."

Export Licence applied for and approved in 2009 - Assad's forces open fire on protesters in Homs in March 2011 - See anything of a bit of a disconnect there Christmas?? - Like TWO F**kin Years!!!
   
"You recently added the refinement of support for a murderous South American dictator"

Really?? Where? When?

By the bye Christmas how many questions of mine is that that you have now studiously ignored because the truthful answers to them would blow most of your wildly inaccurate assertions to oblivion? I await your usual response in the form of a rant consisting of nothing more than baseless assertions, downright lies laced with lashings of indignant emotive claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:49 AM

"Show me a map detailing the borders of Palestine and Israel agreed to by Hamas"
Fuck your maps and your claims of Hamas and israel
Both the Muslims and the Jews have occupied these lands for millennia, both have an equal right to a peaceful life there - if old maps don't cater for that fact they are of as much use as those showing Mercia and Wessex.
It's time you people who want to instigate wars over ancient borders or religion are made as much a thing of the past as are the Empires which created these messes in the first place.
Why in gods name should I have to explain anything to somebody who supports political monsters like Pinochet and Thatcher (really dropped that ball, didn't you?)   
"Legally purchased - 1847 and 1919" my arse, let's see a way to stop thugs bombing hospitals and slaughtering patients, or is that ot to your taste?
Your selling weapons or equipment to Assad was another of your monumental foot-in-mouths.
Whether it was 'sniper rifles' (identified by Keith as such ""You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.") or sniper bullets is immaterial - both you and he approved of their sale to Assad at the time his snipers were slaughtering the people of Homs.   
Both you and Keith came together in support of selling military equipment to a murderous fascist dictator
Your support went something like this:
"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim.
Britain does not make Kalashnikov rounds".
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferable to live rounds".
"Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it.""
Which more-or-less sums up where you are coming from.
You recently added the refinement of support for a murderous South American dictator who directed the rape torture and murder of thousands of his opponents in the name of "constitutional" democracy.
To date, your sole contribution to this discussion has been to suggest that the Palestinians should surrender themselves to the people who are slaughtering their men women and children and destroying their homes, schools, and hospitals.
If I wanted to tête-à-tête with an extremist I'd go to the B.N.P or 'White Supremist', or Muslim Watch', where they have, at least, refined their extremism into a sort of coherent policy, rather than swap insults with a toy soldier with the amusing habit of waving his gun around (any chance of showing us it again?)      
Go and play soldiers in the garden and we'll call you in when your dinner's ready
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:05 AM

Homs thread?
"I've made my views on Syria known, only to be met with suggestions that it was acceptable to sell Assad sniper rifles"

Not one single "sniper rifle" was sold to Syria by the UK Christmas - You claimed incorrectly they had been.

Your grounds for stating that rifles had been sold (with the inference that they had been sold by the British Government) was based upon a report that a licence had been granted to an independent arms dealer to export ~100,000 rounds of Standard NATO 7.62mm ammunition in 2009 - No evidence exists as to whether that sale ever took place, only that a licence had been granted.

What is my point Christmas?

1: Show me a map detailing the borders of Palestine and Israel agreed to by Hamas, Fatah and the Palestine Authority Unity Government that delineates the "Two State Solution" that the Palestinian leadership (All shades) says they are fighting for. There must be one surely, if you believe what they say - True?

Hamas Map of "Their" Palestine

The above map is for 3rd Graders to complete of Paøestine from an exam set in one of their schools in 2002-3. Care to point out on that map where Israel is Christmas?

Map of Palestine

Fatah Map of "Their" Palestine as shown on TV


2: Tell me why the ONLY Palestinian Refugee Camps in existence are on Palestinian territory controlled by Palestinians and in the lands of their Arab neighbours who were the ones that encouraged the Arabs of Palestine to reject the "Two State Solution" offered by the UN in 1947 and opt for War instead?

3: Please explain to me why:

"Any Arab, including his/her descendants, who can show that they worked in the mandated territory of Palestine for a minimum period of 18 months between 1923 and 1948 has a "Right of Return" while Jews:

- Who have lived in parts of what is now known as the West Bank for hundreds or years have none.

- Who legally purchased land between 1847 and 1919 during the Ottoman period have no right to reside in Israel.

The 18 month thing above is the established UN criteria - look it up.

A 72-hour Humanitarian ceasefire is now in place - let us see what happens. Hamas has always said that although it governs and controls Gaza it is incapable of controlling terrorist groups operating in their midst - If that statement is true then rockets will continue to fly, if not then their previous claims were total bullshit.

As part of this negotiated ceasefire (Which Christmas, implies that Hamas have been consulted and have agreed to it) IDF troops remain in their existing positions inside Gaza and NO Offensive operations can be undertaken by either side - that does leave the IDF free to destroy tunnel networks they find inside the territory they currently control - I repeat Hamas has agreed to this and has accepted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:59 AM

So... Israel is now slagging off The UN, possibly believing their own propoganda. Both sets of militants have agreed a humanitarian truce for a short while.

Notice it is humanitarian.

It isn't about the issue. The issue is about the blockade. Egypt will not lift theirs unless and until Israel do because that would mean the exodus of Gaza and refugees till the cows come home. Israel won't because the blockade is a convenient safeguard for their aggressive land grab.

The small hope is exceedingly small, but now The USA is realising the wisdom of The UN at long last, we might see progress. Israel's self determination as they put it is as the 51st state. USA funded, both financially and morally. I doubt Washington would react so kindly to Texas pushing into Mexico, murdering and waving prayer books along the way. The retaliation of Mexico would be seen more objectively.

The comments of the war mongering armchair warriors here is fascinating, not to mention repulsive.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:43 AM

"The point is that the world treats Israel the same now as then"
The point is that Israel has dropped now let the mask drop and exposed themselves in their true colours for the vicious thugs they are
What remains the same is the usual suspect pack of nodding- dogs who shuffle behind them defending their thuggery.
It will be interesting to see if the U.S. will continue using its U.N. veto to protect them from the consequences of their behaviour, or will have the balls to step aside and let them be tried for the butchers they are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:21 PM

The point is that the world treats Israel the same now as then

Yes, John you're right to a degree: Israel is permitted to get away with things that other nations are not and is praised for things for which other nations would be condemned. Then, and now - only a great deal moreso now.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:57 PM

"So Israel agreeing to a "ceasefire" out of one side of their mouth and saying they will certainly violate it out of the other side is admirable in your book, Boo?"

They are going to find and destroy those tunnels, that is their stated goal. Better they do it during the ceasefire and no one gets killed or do you prefer they do it during hostilities so that more Gazans die for the sole purpose of vilifying Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:12 PM

Well, poor thin-skinned Greg, you patronize very easily, then. Perhaps you should find a different sandbox to play in, with friends whom you can control.

By the way, the point you seemed to get from my posting of Hoffer is that I was defending Israel in this case. It was not. The point is that the world treats Israel the same now as then, and whether they defeat a big foe (then), or a smaller fo(now)e. And whether they are treated as all other nations, which by and large they weren't and they aren't.

As to a 'holocaust', if it comes, it will not involve just Israel and Jews...it will likely envelop much of the world. Not looking for one soon, but maybe if the world doesn't get its act together...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

So Israel agreeing to a "ceasefire" out of one side of their mouth and saying they will certainly violate it out of the other side is admirable in your book, Boo?

Fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:39 PM

"Humanitarian ceasefire in 7 hours?"

Israel has said they will continue to destroy the terror tunnels ceasefire or no ceasefire, I hope they stick to that commitment.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:35 PM

Israeli officials argue privately that UNRWA simply should not exist. They say Palestinian refugees should be defined and treated like any other refugee group around the world. They say UNRWA serves a Palestinian narrative fundamentally intolerant of Israel's existence. They say UNRWA disseminates a relentless, one-sided, emotional and problematic message that is implicitly anti-Israel.

Read more: The trouble with UNRWA | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-trouble-with-unrwa/#ixzz395X8CU6j

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:19 PM

No, the LINK did not patronize me, but your POSTING did. Don't wait too long for that apology, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM

Well John I know very well who Hoffer was and am familiar with his history and writings, but thanks for the patroniizing bit anyway..

If you follow and read from the link I gave, you will find I did not patronize you. Or is soliciting an opinion at the end now considered patronizing? I will expect your apology for your gratuitous comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:05 PM

Humanitarian ceasefire in 7 hours?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:55 PM

Well John I know very well who Hoffer was and am familiar with his history and writings, but thanks for the patroniizing bit anyway..

What do I think, John? I think that was 1968. This is 2014.

I also think some of the statements are fatuous in the extreme, even then.

e.g. 1. If Israel survives, it will be thanks to their own efforts and resources.


Well, John, lets then cut off the billions of U.S. aid and LET Israel survive "on its own resources". Yes?

and 2. If Israel perish, the Holocaust will fall upon us all.

Prescient? Please.

I also think the atrocious treatment of the Jewish people thru history
does not exhoneratesubsequent and/or current Israeli government atrocities.

Finally, I think you would do well to read some of Hoffer's later comments and observations written closer to the end of his life, after witnessing Israeli government behavior for several decades following 1968.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:33 PM

John on the Sunset Coast-

Hoffer was, and is, right on. Reminds me of the Israeli author Ephraim Kishon who wrote "Unfair to Goliath" shortly after the 1967 War. Goliath's wife is lamenting: "I don't know what to tell the little children, they keep asking, 'Has daddy killed all the Jews yet?'"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 04:53 PM

"You cannot shake hands with a clenched fist." Indira Gandhi

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 04:05 PM

It should tell you everything you need to know about someone who unquestionably accepts everything coming from a terrorist group committed to the genocide of all Jews and rejects anything coming from the Jewish side.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM

" was quoting from the ACTUAL GENEVA CONVENTIONS, which you obviously have NEVER bothered to look at."
Your information on the finding weapons in hospitals came from the two Zionist rags I mentioned.
Israel threatened to bomb hospitals and schools from day one of the slaughter - the earliest reports of their having done so cites 3 hospitals and 70-odd schools
Up to now, their excuse has been that there were Hamas fighters in the vicinity - now surprise, surprise, after several horrific cases of UN shelters being attacked, their propaganda machinery has uncovered hidden weapons caches - better late than never, I suppose.
The Nazis were a bit better at it, but the Israelis are catching up fast
Still no comment on the pilot showing he knew exactly who he was bombing - no surprise there either.
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:12 PM

Sorry, Jimmy boy.

"If your information comes from extremist Zionist propaganda rags like Inquisitr or Arutz Sheva it doesn't even begin to have credibility as information.
There is no confirmatio of this information whatever oyher than the aforementioned 'sources'
"


MORE of your lies. ** I ** was quoting from the ACTUAL GENEVA CONVENTIONS, which you obviously have NEVER bothered to look at.

Now, since you have swallowed ( and insisted was the truth ) EVERY statement from HAMAS ,

PLEASE tell us what YOU accept as valid fact- So far, it seems you have "SRS SYNDROME" _"I'll ONLY accept as fact what agrees with what I want the facts to be."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

"IF a hospital or school is used as a military site, such as to launch or store missiles, IT LOSES IT'S "PROTECTED" STATUS under the Geneva Conventions. "
If your information comes from extremist Zionist propaganda rags like Inquisitr or Arutz Sheva it doesn't even begin to have credibility as information.
There is no confirmatio of this information whatever oyher than the aforementioned 'sources'
Oldest trick in the world for terrorist states - blame the victim - the Nazis perfected the technique.
You didn't mention the fact that the Israeli pilot just interviewed demonstrated to beyond doubt that he knew exactly that he was attacking hospitals and schools - but then again, you wouldn't, would you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 02:45 PM

http://uthinkithink.weebly.com/1/post/2013/05/israels-peculiar-position-written-in-1968-by-eric-hoffer.html

ISRAEL'S PECULIAR POSITION
by Eric Hoffer-- Los Angeles Times May 26, 1968 (Eric Hoffer's Bio Below)

ISRAEL'S PECULIAR POSITION by Eric Hoffer - LA Times 5/26/68
The Jews are a peculiar people: what is allowed to other people is forbidden to them.
Other nations drive out thousands, millions, and there is a "refugee problem." Russia has, Poland and Czechoslovakia have. Turkey expelled a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchmen. Indonesia drove millions of Chinese and no one says anything about "refugees".
But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs become eternal refugees.
The world insists that Israel must take back all.
Arnold Toynbee said that the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity was greater than any committed by the Nazis.
Other nations victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, she has to ask for peace.
Everyone expects the Jews to be the only "true Christians" on this planet.
Other nations, when they suffer a defeat, survive and recover, but the day that Israel is defeated, it will be destroyed. If Nasser had triumphed last June [1967], Israel would have disappeared from the map and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews.
No formal commitment made ​​by any government to Jews, including those issued by our own government, are worth the paper they are written. The world outrage mounts a scandal when civilians die in Vietnam or when two rebels are executed in Rhodesia. But when the Jews Hitler murdered in cold blood, no one protested against it.
The Swedes are prepared to sever ties with the United States for our war in Vietnam, but they did not say a peep when Hitler slaughtered Jews. He was sent to Hitler his best iron ore, bearings for their tanks, and gave service to train troops sent to Norway.
The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be thanks to their own efforts and resources.
However, at the moment, Israel is our only true unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than they can depend on us. We just have to imagine what would have happened last summer [1967] if the Arabs and their Russian allies had won the war to realize how vital Israel to America and the West in general.
I have a hunch that will not leave me alone, what happens to Israel will seal our own fate. If Israel perish, the Holocaust will fall upon us all.

Eric Hoffer was a proletarian thinker. He worked as a stevedore at the ports and became philosopher of common sense. He wrote columns for newspapers in the U.S.. He was not Jewish ... was an American "walk".
Born in 1902 and died in 1983, after writing nine books and received the Distinguished Presidential Medal of Freedom ... the highest civil order of the U.S.. His first book, "The True Believer", published in 1951, was recognized as a classic.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This op-ed (though I think the term not in use then) piece was written shortly after the 1the 1967 war. Already, then, it was clear how the world felt about Israel's victory over the immediate Arab world. We now consider it the Israel/Palestine problem. It seems to me that not much has changed for Israel in the subsequent 45+ years. Israel is still expected to make right Arab treatment of Palestineans, and Palestinean treatment of Jordan, Lebanon and Syria during the years since.

I think Hoffer's last sentence is precient. It may even be in progress as we argue at Mudcat.

Musket, Jim, Greg, Stilly, Stringsinger, Steve Shaw, et. al., I'm interested in your reaction to Mr. Hoffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

"There cannot be anything more morally reprehensible than the U.N., an body committed to the principle of human rights, aiding and abetting a terrorist organization in this way."

Hear, hear!.....Indict the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:27 PM

"The explosives, which were deliberately planted into the walls of the medical facility by terrorists, weighed around 150kg and were put into a clinic that was built to mask and perform potential acts of terror on the IDF.

In addition, the clinic was built over a number of terror attack tunnels, intended to be used by Hamas to attack Israel.

Obviously, UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency), which runs the clinic has yet to respond to the serious allegation that it knowingly allowed one of its facilities to be used from which terror attacks could be launched.

The U.N. has been totally discredited, as it is every time Israel is attacked by one of its neighbors, as it drafts condemnation after condemnation in Geneva for Israel's defensive war, while actively assisting the terrorists of Hamas on the ground.

There cannot be anything more morally reprehensible than the U.N., an body committed to the principle of human rights, aiding and abetting a terrorist organization in this way.

On Tuesday, Hamas and Islamic Jihad rocket arsenals were found in a UNRWA school for the third time this month. Having found the deadly rockets at the UNRWA school, it was reported that rather than destroying the rockets, UNRWA workers called Hamas to come to "remove" them.

Of course, UNWRA has neglected to comment on the deaths of the three Israeli soldiers and instead rushed to place blame on Israel for a rocket strike on one of their schools in Gaza which turned out to have been a Palestinian rocket which fell short of its target in Israel."

http://www.inquisitr.com/1384173/explosives-which-killed-three-israeli-soldiers-were-booby-trapped-inside-u-n-clinics-walls/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

Hamas entered the operation with an estimated 15,000 active fighters, including men in supportive positions. Although other Israeli sources speak of hundreds of Hamas fighters killed, the IDF believes it has killed over 1,000 (which would underline Israeli claims that there is a far higher proportion of combatants than widely reported among the 1,360 total Gaza fatalities cited by Gazan health sources). The IDF is destroying or significantly harming Hamas's combat units in Beit Hanoun and Shejaiya in the northern Gaza Strip and Khan Younis in the south.

Read more: From tunnels to R-160s, a primer on Hamas and its deadly capabilities | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/from-tunnels-to-r-160s-a-primer-on-hamas-and-its-deadly-capabilities/#ixzz394GHfZGx
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:20 PM

Sorry, jimmy boy.

IF a hospital or school is used as a military site, such as to launch or store missiles, IT LOSES IT'S "PROTECTED" STATUS under the Geneva Conventions. THAT IS WHY such use BY HAMAS is a "Grievous Violation" in and of itself, in spite of YOUR approval.

The attacker then has to look at the potential impact of the attack- IF the site continues in use, is the harm that it causes greater than the harm to civilians at the site. It looks like EACH HAMAS ROCKET kills about 15-20 civilians and wounds about 200 when it hits GAZA- So a 15 rocket launcher endangers 225- 400 dead, 3000 to 4000 wounded EACH TIME IT LAUNCHES A SALVO of rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

IDF Soldiers Find Mosque with Weapons and Tunnel Openings

YouTube

Hamas has now made mosques, UNRWA facilities and hospitals legitimate targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:12 PM

UN complicity in war crimes:

"As those who pay attention know by now, the entire Strip and much of Southern Israel are riddled with a mammoth network of terror tunnels designed to murder and kidnap Israelis and store weapons while protecting the mega-rich Hamas leadership.

Israeli troops entering Gaza last week have so far uncovered 18 tunnels used by Hamas to send armed terrorists into Israel and built using an estimated 800,000 tons of concrete.

And how did it get there? That concrete was supposedly shipped into Gaza for "humanitarian purposes." Isn't that purportedly the province of the UN? What was there role in it exactly? How did this stunning amount of concrete slip in to be used for evil purposes? "


And not ONE shelter FOR THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

THAT should meet the approval of our three stooges ( Jimmy, Musket, and Greggie)...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:10 PM

""Over eighty kilograms of explosives were built into the UN-funded hospital's walls themselves, it was cleared for publication Thursday - revealing that the clinic itself was built to mask, and perform, potential acts of terror on the IDF"
By the way - your above quote (carefully unlinked), was lifted directly from Arutz Sheva.
"Arutz Sheva (Hebrew: ערוץ שבע‎) (Channel Seven) is an Israeli media network identifying with Neo-Zionism"
Which seems about the level of 'information'
As I type, an Israeli pilot is showing a television reporter the working of his aircraft, explaining that his plane if fully equipped with sophisticated cameras which enable him to be aware of exactly what he is dropping his bombs on.
To the reporter's accusation that he knows he is attacking hospitals and schools, he paused, then said, we offer them medical assistance!
Genocide just about sums it up, I'd say, wouldn't you?
Silly question, of course you wouldn't   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:55 PM

"why only the Israeli government has earned your scorn for its "genocide." "
I've made my views on Syria known, only to be met with suggestions that it was acceptable to sell Assad sniper rifles and riot control equipment at the time his snipers were shooting women on the streets of Homs and offering prizes of a cigarette to those who could kill a mother and baby with the same shot.
"Britain is hardly in the same league. You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
The only other "weapons" supplied were armour plated buses, tear gas and water cannon."
Keith on 'Homs Horror' thread.
"Guess what "Jim Lad" - Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it."
Terrytoon - same thread.
Not to mention selling the same murderous dictator chemicals that could be used to manufacture Chemical weapons
"Sodium fluoride is a harmless substance freely available everywhere.
They dose our water with it to protect our teeth
It is not a weapon, although you would not want a big sack to land on your toe."
Keith on 'Chemical Weapons in Syria' thread
Keep up, O Bearded Blaggard, otherwise you miss out on all the entertainment.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM

"Over eighty kilograms of explosives were built into the UN-funded hospital's walls themselves, it was cleared for publication Thursday - revealing that the clinic itself was built to mask, and perform, potential acts of terror on the IDF.

Moreover, the clinic was built over tens of terror tunnels, according to the report. "



So HOW MANY of those "ISRAELI SHELLS" that Hamas has claimed hit schools and hospitals were really Hamas IEDs?

We KNOW that there are 20-30% of all the thousands of rockets launched at Israel by Hamas hitting Gaza, with their anti-personnel warheads. Now this: Hamas is FAR better at killing Palestinian civilians than Israel is.



"I met today with a Spanish journalist who just came back from Gaza. We talked about the situation there. He was very friendly. I asked him how comes we never see on television channels reporting from Gaza any Hamas people, no gunmen, no rocket launcher, no policemen.. We only see civilians on these reports, mostly women and children.
He answered me frankly: "It's very simple, we did see Hamas people there launching rockets, they were close to our hotel, but if ever we dared pointing our camera on them they would simply shoot at us and kill us."

Wooh, impressive. Then I asked him "would you mind saying that on camera? I can film you explaining this..."

For some reason I cannot really understand he refused and almost ran away. I guess my camera is as dangerous as Hamas threats…"



MORE war crimes you have approved of and supported Hamas in:

"And yet, during the course of the current operation, he said, he saw, for example, "a fan" of 15 rockets scream skyward from Beit Hanoun, in northern Gaza. Immediately, he could see, from his command position, where they were headed: Ashdod, Kiryat Gat, Tel Aviv. As he zoomed in on the point of fire he saw that the rockets were launched from an underground launcher "on the fence" of a boys and girls school."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM

Musket,

Do you even bother to read posts before you attack people?

The POSTED FACTS, IF PROVEN TRUE, are evidence of a WAR CRIME.

ALL here know YOU support war crimes, as long as it is Israelis or Palestinian civilians being killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:05 PM

Indict The UNRWA for war crimes....

How many weeks since poobad last took his medication?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:01 PM

Indict UNRWA for war crimes for their complicity in aiding terrorism!

New details have emerged about the booby-trapped clinic explosion that killed three IDF Maglan unit soldiers in Gaza earlier this week - Sergeant First Class Matan Gottlieb, 21, from Rishon LeZion; Sergeant First Class Omar Chai, 21, from Savion; and Sergeant First Class Guy Algranati, 20, of Tel Aviv, hy"d.

Over eighty kilograms of explosives were built into the UN-funded hospital's walls themselves, it was cleared for publication Thursday - revealing that the clinic itself was built to mask, and perform, potential acts of terror on the IDF.

Moreover, the clinic was built over tens of terror tunnels, according to the report.

The UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) has yet to respond to the revelations, and has still not responded to the deaths of the Israeli soldiers Wednesday.

Booby-Trapped Explosives Built into Walls of UNRWA Clinic

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:50 AM

Israeli apologist Mark Regev and like-minded souls are wringing their hands in despair and pleading that all they want is for Palestinians to break from Hamas and get behind more moderate leaders. At the same time, observers on all sides are noting that Hamas - close to a spent force after the deal with Fatah - has seen its support soar as a result of the Israeli offensive.

Yet still Netanyahu blunders on, creating a new family of enemies for every child that dies, pandering to populist opinion as voiced for instance by brainless Zionists, wrapped in their national flag, jubilantly chanting that there are no more schools in Gaza because there are no more Gaza children. His arrogance is founded in a belief that anyone who questions him can be labelled anti-semitic. As far as the UK is concerned, there is some basis for that belief. And in the US of course Israel is beyond criticism, thanks to the disproportionate leverage exercised by a monied Zionist lobby. But elsewhere around the world Israel is increasingly loathed, and indeed old-style anti-semitism is in evidence again - a direct consequence of Israel's disregard for innocent lives.

This present conflict has the potential ultimately to threaten the principles that underpin the UN. That would delight many in the US who have never liked having to conform to any sort of world consensus. But with the US already on course to lose top billing in the world order, such minded folk should be careful what they wish for.

"The Jews were the first victims of Hitler; the Palestinians were the second" - Peter Ustinov

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:50 AM

Paul Martin, a reporter for the Globe and Mail, described seeing Hamas gunmen retreating from Shejaiya in women's clothing, with one of them swaddling his rifle in a blanket like a baby.


And Hamas announces each one as a civilian if they are shot…


Arts. 43-44
Protocol I seeks to clarify the military status of members of guerrilla forces in the following manner: It includes provisions granting combatant and prisoner of war status to members
of dissident forces when under the command of a central authority. Such combatants cannot conceal their allegiance; they must be recognizable as combatants while preparing for or during an attack.

Art. 85
It is a war crime to use one of the protective emblems recognized by the Geneva Conventions to deceive the opposing forces or to use other forms of treachery.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

Arab Leaders, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel, Stay Silent

Battling Palestinian militants in Gaza two years ago, Israel found itself pressed from all sides by unfriendly Arab neighbors to end the fighting. Not this time.

Led by Egypt, a coalition of Arab states has effectively lined up with Israel in its fight against Hamas.

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM

A soldier from the Golani Brigade, who fought in the battle for Shejaiya, said it is already being talked about like the heroic fight for Mount Hermon in 1973. He said he had fought an enemy, taken fire from all over, even lost close friends and his direct commander, yet "we didn't see one person."

After a week in Gaza, he said, he still had not seen the face of the enemy.

Instead the battle swirls around them. Militants emerge from tunnels and open fire from the rear; donkeys trot toward the troops carrying a wagon full of explosives; suicide bombers make desperate sprints out of alleys; and an old man, apparently asking for water, tries to toss five grenades at a squad of troops, the commander of the Gaza Division, Brig. Gen. Michael Edelstein, said Wednesday.

He described a street patrolled by soldiers earlier this week, in a small town called Khirbet Khaza'iya, in which 19 of the 28 houses on the central street were booby-trapped. Many have tripwires in the gardens and on the doors, many with double activation devices, meaning they can be detonated from afar with, say, a cellphone. Thousands of homes, he said, have been detonated by militants across the Gaza Strip.

Paul Martin, a reporter for the Globe and Mail, described seeing Hamas gunmen retreating from Shejaiya in women's clothing, with one of them swaddling his rifle in a blanket like a baby.

"It's terrifying," said a combat soldier, who fought in Operation Cast Lead. "The [brigade] intelligence officers scare the crap out of you."

Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

Jimmy,

YOU need to present some FACTS when you make accusations…


"Genocide: A coordinated and systematic effort to completely destroy a people or ethnic group. Whatever you think of Israeli actions in Gaza, they do not constitute genocide. And if you still maintain that they do, you must really be upset by the 180,000 Syrians killed by the Assad regime. And if not, you might ask yourself why only the Israeli government has earned your scorn for its "genocide." "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM

Hamas hiding under the haricot beans, no doubt

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28571785
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM

"That said, we hold the terrorist organization Hamas responsible for this"
Disguised in Israeli uniforms no doubt.
"stressed its recognition of Israel's right to defend itself.""
Did he say anything about Palestinian right to defend itself against Israeli genocidal attacks - No?
Politicians eh - you love'em or you hate 'em?
"1,360."
Gaza officials say at least 1,394 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed in the battered territory and nearly 7,000 wounded. Fifty-six Israeli soldiers have been killed in Gaza clashes and more than 400 wounded. Three civilians have been killed by Palestinian shelling in Israel.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 10:57 AM

A senior Israel Air Force officer articulated the challenge from above. Pilots take to the sky with the instruction "to avoid to the greatest extent possible harming civilians," said Brig. Gen. Yaron Rosen, the IAF Air Support and Helicopter Air Division Commander.

And yet, during the course of the current operation, he said, he saw, for example, "a fan" of 15 rockets scream skyward from Beit Hanoun, in northern Gaza. Immediately, he could see, from his command position, where they were headed: Ashdod, Kiryat Gat, Tel Aviv. As he zoomed in on the point of fire he saw that the rockets were launched from an underground launcher "on the fence" of a boys and girls school.

Returning fire, destroying the rocket launchers, he said, would probably damage the school. Perhaps there were children inside. "What do I do? What do I do now?" he asked.

The air force, he said, had held its fire and spared the lives "of hundreds of Hamas operatives" and assets in order to avoid hurting innocent people.

"When are civilians killed?" he asked. "When there's no time. When there is fire directed at the citizens of Israel."

"A state," he added, "has to tend to its own citizens."

Rosen seemed genuinely awestruck by the extent of the military infrastructure embedded in civilian and humanitarian complexes in Gaza. He used the words "unfathomable" and "insane" on several occasions. He described Al Wafa Hospital, which Israel bombed after it had been finally emptied, as the central command post from which Hamas directed the bloody battle in Shejaiya. "It was a hospital held hostage by Hamas," he said.

How Gaza perverts the army's rules of engagement

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

"Ottawa (AFP) - Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Wednesday blamed Hamas for the heavy loss of civilian life caused by Israel's deadly strikes on the Gaza Strip.

At least 110 people were killed on Wednesday alone in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, as the Palestinian death toll from 23 days of unrelenting Israeli attacks soared to 1,360.

Israel says 56 of its soldiers have been killed.

"Obviously, no one likes to see the suffering and loss of life that has occurred," Harper said in televised remarks.

"That said, we hold the terrorist organization Hamas responsible for this. They have initiated and continue this conflict, and continue to seek the destruction of the state of Israel."

Canada's conservative government has long supported the Jewish state and stressed its recognition of Israel's right to defend itself."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 10:20 AM

"Daddy, he hit me first!"

"Well, he was on my side of the seat!"

"But I needed to see out that window!~"


.... and so it goes....

Daddy can at least say, "If you two don't behave, you will stay home next time!"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM

ABERDEEN
SCOTLAND
Intended support from Preston and Tower Hamlets has been quashed by Pro-Israeli opposition
The Galway town of Kinvara has announced a boycott of Israeli goods (first in Ireland and Irish musiciians, including Sharon Shannon are to hold s concert in support of the Palestinian people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

Headline statement frm Haaretz
"3 hours ago - Cautious estimates put the number of displaced persons as of Tuesday night at about 440,000 — roughly one-quarter of Gaza's population.
It's now Thursday, in case you hadn't noticed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM

For some reason I cannot really understand he refused and almost ran away. I guess my camera is as dangerous as Hamas threats...
IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING
"Care to provide ANY supporting facts, even from Hamas Propaganda channels?"
LYING HAARETZ
"But he won't geddit, so why do I bother?"
Why indeed?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 09:34 AM

I met today with a Spanish journalist who just came back from Gaza. We talked about the situation there. He was very friendly. I asked him how comes we never see on television channels reporting from Gaza any Hamas people, no gunmen, no rocket launcher, no policemen.. We only see civilians on these reports, mostly women and children.
He answered me frankly: "It's very simple, we did see Hamas people there launching rockets, they were close to our hotel, but if ever we dared pointing our camera on them they would simply shoot at us and kill us."

Wooh, impressive. Then I asked him "would you mind saying that on camera? I can film you explaining this..."

For some reason I cannot really understand he refused and almost ran away. I guess my camera is as dangerous as Hamas threats...

So just for you to know, the truth will never appear on the images you see on television.

Spanish journalist - off the record - says Hamas would kill Gaza reporters if they filmed rocket fire

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

Bolivia calls Israel a terrorist state, cancelling the no-visa deal.
Mr. Morales, you have big cajones

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM

"Israeli terrorists (LIE) have now displaced a quarter of all Gaza residents and made the whole area unlivable (LIE), murdering over a thousand civilians (LIE) along the way."



You really need to get a permit as an Hamas agent to keep posting such statements.

Care to provide ANY supporting facts, even from Hamas Propaganda channels?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:16 AM

Sorry, Musket.

I was not allowed to work on the Saudi contract BECAUSE THE CONTRACT SPECIFIED ONLY WHITE PROTESTANT MALES between 30 and 50 were permitted.That was in 1978.


You keep repeating Hamas propaganda- YOU ARE SUPPORTING the killing of Palestinian civilians by your posts.

Attack me all you want- it takes NONE of the blood off YOUR hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:13 AM

Jim misses my entire point as usual; but that's nothing new. Why, he has even apologised to me before now for getting hold of wrong end of stick, saying he must learn to read more carefully before jumping in. He should just stick with that thought, & not attribute to me statements which I have clearly stated to be, not my own view, but the sort of disguised sentiments I would expect to find in the posts of the likes of him.

But he won't geddit, so why do I bother?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:08 AM

Israeli terrorists have now displaced a quarter of all Gaza residents and made the whole area unliveable, murdering over a thousand civilians along the way.

Meanwhile, the world looks on. Anybody objecting on humanitarian grounds is called a terrorist supporter by lowlife scum.

Mudcat carries on giving it the oxygen of publicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:05 AM

"Every time Israel takes military action to prevent further Palestinian attacks, it is falsely presented as the aggressive persecutor of the innocent..."
Further to what Mike?
Count the dead civilians and compare them with Israeli civilian dead
Claiming this genocide is a farce in the light of civilian casualties, destroyed hospitals schools homes.
" a fucking yiddie bitch at that"
Now that really is beneath even your neutrality on Israel's genocide - and you whine about being insulted.
"But some of the human beings who occasionally visit this forum might find some food for a bit of thought."
I doubt if you would recognise one if you met one - out of your comfort zone..
What's your point Terrytoon?
"Gaza would be for the Israelis to reoccupy the place"
sums it ll up really - surrender and become part of Israel's apartheid state - isn't that a contradiction in terms.
There are 5.000.000 plus Palestinian refugees in the world today as a direct result of Israel's drive for territory.
"continued killing by Hamas of Palestinian civilians."
Disguised as Israeli troops, no doubt.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM

A short history of Gaza (Thank you Waseem Altaf)

From 2500 BC to about 1100 BC Canaanites lived in Gaza. The term "Canaanite" itself does not refer to any particular racial or ethnic attribute. They were idolaters and worshipped a family of gods while their primary god was El.
In about 1190 BC the Philistines of Aegean origin captured Gaza. They were defeated by Israelite King David in the 10th century BC.
It later came under Assyrian rule followed by Persian.
The Roman Empire invaded the region in 63 BC which continued till the end of the Empire when the Byzantine Empire captured it.
Prior to the advent of Islam during the 4th and 5th century Gaza was mainly inhabited by Christians as part of the Byzantine Empire.
The Prophet Mohammad visited Gaza more than once before prophet-hood. It is said that the prophet's great grandfather Hashim ibn Abd Manaf lived in Gaza as a merchant.

In 634 AD, during the reign of Caliph Abu Bakr, Gaza was besieged by Muslim army commanded by Amr Bin Al-aas and Khalid Bin Walid, until it fell to the Muslims. After the Muslim occupation, churches were converted into mosques while Christians and Jews were given the option to convert, pay Jizya or face dire consequences. Hence, many fled and a very insignificant Christian and Jewish population remained till the Ummayad and Abbasid periods. (661-1258 AD)
It was in Gaza that Imam Shafi wrote his "fiqah". And in 796 AD the city was destroyed during infighting among Muslim Arab tribes.
In 909 AD it became part of the Fatimid Caliphate ( A Shia caliphate descended from the daughter of the Prophet named Fatima.

In 1100 AD Gaza was invaded by Byzantine Christians as part of the Crusades- military campaigns launched to regain Christian territories lost to the Muslims.
In 1187 it was re-conquered by Salah-ud-Din Ayyubi who founded the Ayyubid dynasty and remained a strong advocate of jehad. However, the bulk of Saladin's activities from 1174 until 1187 AD involved fighting other Muslims and eventually bringing Aleppo, Damascus, Mosul, and other cities under his control.
The Ayyubid period of rule virtually ended in 1260 after the Mongols under Hulagu Khan completely destroyed Gaza. It was followed by Mamluk rule.
In 1516 Gaza was Invaded by the Turks and incorporated into the Ottoman Empire. In 1832 the Egyptians captured it. In 1842 it was recaptured by the Turks defeating the Egyptians.

After Turks were defeated during World War I, Gaza became a British mandate.
In 1948,when the state of Israel was one day old it was invaded by Arab armies of all neighboring countries. They were all defeated and Gaza was again captured by Egypt.
In the 6-day Arab-Israel war of 1967 Israel recaptured it and Gaza remained under Israeli occupation until Oslo Accords were implemented in May 1994 and Israel handed over power to the Palestinian Authority. (To be continued)
Waseem Altaf

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM

Still saying I support Hamas, lying scum?

By the way, what was the criminal conviction that prevented you from being able to work in Saudi Arabia? You never did get around to telling us.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM

The mob howled for vengeance, the missiles raining down on the synagogue walls as the worshippers huddled inside. It was a scene from Europe in the 1930s – except this was eastern Paris on the evening of July 13th, 2014.

Thousands had gathered to demonstrate against the Israeli bombardment of Gaza. But the protest soon turned violent – and against Jews in general. One of those trapped told Israeli television that the streets outside were "like an intifada", the Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation.

Two weeks later, 400 protesters attacked a synagogue and Jewish-owned businesses in Sarcelles, in the north of Paris, shouting "Death to the Jews". Posters had even advertised the raid in advance, like the pogroms of Tsarist Russia.

And this....sound familiar?

Social media provides an easy platform for the spread of hate, which has been given impetus by the alliance between Islamists and the left, says Ben Cohen, author of Some of My Best Friends: A Journey Through Twenty-First Century Anti-Semitism. "Saying that Jews are the only nation who don't have the right to self-determination, smearing Israel as a modern incarnation of Nazi Germany or apartheid South Africa, asserting that the 'Israel Lobby' manipulates American foreign policy from the shadows is unmistakably anti-Semitism."

Newsweek: Exodus: Why Europe's Jews Are Fleeing Once Again

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

And Jim: Yes, there is a great distinction to be made between the regrets expressed by Einstein & Chomsky, & me, et al, at the way our dearest early hopes & aspirations have been betrayed*, which represent a disappointment leading to a profound kind of grief which you cannot even begin to understand or empathise with; and the lefty-agenda-driven, supposed-underdog-loving, ambivalently motivated [to put it at its least unfavourable] attacks on a small demographic striving for very survival in the face of hostile hordes, supported worldwide by well-meaning but misguided useful idiots like you. And if you haven't the intelligence to recognise and appreciate this distinction, then the worse for you

≈M≈

*& if I choose to express this symbolically by denunciation of the destruction of ordinary respectable people's means of living in the form of the olive groves which were all that supported them and brought them an honest maintenance, it ill becomes you to utter smartarse sneers at this as 'lipservice' & concentaration on trifles -- indeed, it's contemptible of you. I say again, in Shaw's useful formulation: You think it isn't, but it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:34 AM

Don't bother with facts- The three stooges (Musket, Jimmy, and Greggie boy) have NEVER presented any, nor do they acknowledge it even when it is supplied. They have their view, and are not willing to have any thoughts that do not support the continued killing by Hamas of Palestinian civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM

"for you the future is refugee coloured" - Christmas

But Christmas - please correct me if I am wrong here BUT:

In 1948 the Egyptians invaded, occupied and annexed Gaza (which was part of Palestine) then shut the Palestinians up in refugee camps on what was Palestinian Territory. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, handing the complete territory over to the "Palestinians". Can you tell me why there are any Palestinian refugee camps in existence on Palestinian territory?

In 1948 the Jordanians invaded, occupied and annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem (Both parts of Palestine) then shut the Palestinians up in refugee camps on what was Palestinian Territory. In accordance with the Oslo Agreement in 1993 areas of the West bank were placed under direct control and rule of the Palestinian Authority. Can you tell me why there are any Palestinian refugee camps in existence on Palestinian territory in those areas of the West Bank governed by the PA?

In Lebanon, Jordan and in Syria the Palestinians were shut up in refugee camps.

Can you give me the name or location of one single Palestinian Refugee or internment camp set up in Israel by the Israelis? After all 20.7% of Israel's 8,146,300 people are Arabs.

It would appear Christmas that only in Palestinian Territory and in neighbouring Arab lands that Palestinian Refugee Camps exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:13 AM

Jim, Guardian 17 hours ago.
Since last July Egypt has bolstered Israel's blockade on Gaza by destroying over 1,600 tunnels that smugglers once used to bring crucial goods (and weapons) into the territory. The end of the tunnel trade, which Egypt had tolerated for years, crippled Gaza economically, since the simultaneous closure of Egypt's formal border at Rafah meant Gazans had no other way of importing many supplies.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/30/egypt-siding-israel-cost-gaza-dear

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:45 AM

Some extracts from an article by Melanie Phillips in this week's Spectator ~~ posted simultaneously on the 'Small Hope' & 'Caliphate' threads:

Every time Israel takes military action to prevent further Palestinian attacks, it is falsely presented as the aggressive persecutor of the innocent...
Unless British Jews join this demonisation, they are deemed complicit with Israel's 'war crimes'. As a result, attacks on British Jews always spike during Israel's wars. So much for the supposed distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. [MGM's emphasis]...
Anti-Semitism singles out Jews for treatment applied to no other people: the application of double standards, false claims they are committing crimes of which they are instead the victims, and demonic conspiratorial powers. This is precisely the treatment applied to Israel.
But then the left marches side by side with Islamists, who are committed to the persecution of gays and women, while it boycotts Israel, the only place in the Middle East where Muslims enjoy human rights.

I am aware that some, whom I shall not name but we all know who, will denounce this as the ravings of a well-known, & hence ignorable, right-orientated journo; & [probably not in as many words, but implied nonetheless] a fucking yiddie bitch at that.

But some of the human beings who occasionally visit this forum might find some food for a bit of thought.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM

Oh by the way Christmas, could you show me a map that defines the borders of the States of Palestine and Israel as agreed to by Hamas, Fatah and the Unity Palestinian Authority?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:26 AM

Well Christmas the best possible outcome for those "living" in Gaza would be for the Israelis to reoccupy the place, then rebuild it with the aid money that Hamas currently fritters away enlarging their "leaders" bank accounts and buying rockets and other weaponry (None of which ever seems to do the good people of Gaza any good at all).

After a period of stable and peaceful transition the Israelis could once again unilaterally withdraw as they did in 2005, but at least by then the people of Gaza would have had some experience of living in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:12 AM

"No Christmas - Now more than ever before the people of Palestine need a massive injection of commonsense and leaders that will actually look after THEIR interests and well being."
You mean, "come out with your hands up - for you the future is refugee coloured (and you all now what that means to Israelis) - those of you who survive, of course.'
The wannabe soldier's answer to everything
Stick to closing time at The Dog and Duck, leave it to late enough in the night and you just might persuade somebody.
Your blustering bullshit doesn't work with sober people
'Bout turn; quick maaaarch!
Jim Carroll

Irish Times, Monday 28th July
THE CRISIS IN GAZA
Sir, - It is not enough to' ex¬press horror at so many innocent lives having been lost during the latest round of violence in Gaza and Israel. We must in¬stead ask how we can break the cycle that leads to this slaughter.
The people of Gaza live in what is often referred to as "the world's largest open air prison". Almost two million people live in an area 40km long and 10km wide, 80 per cent of whom are classified by the United Nations as refugees. Eight out of every 10 residents of Gaza are reliant on the international community for support.
In the West Bank, the Israeli military is in control of 60 per cent of the land. There are now more than 500,000 Israeli settlers living in over 200 settlements. In order to facilitate these settlements, land is confiscated from Palestinians. Ac¬cording to the UN, in 2013 alone, 1,513 Palestinians, including 731 children, in the West Bank and East Jerusalem were affected by the demolition of homes and other structures.
The occupation of the West Bank has created a discriminatory regime with two populations living separately in the same territory under two different systems of law. While settlers enjoy all the rights of Israeli citizens, Palestinians are subject to military law.
Despite these flagrant breaches of international human rights and humanitarian law, the Israeli government refuses to comprehend Palestinian grievances. Prime minister Netanyahu speaks of "quiet for quiet". We support his desire for peace and security for Israeli citizens, but we also recognise that it is neither realistic nor acceptable to plan a future based on peace for Israelis and the daily reality of blockades, military law and occupation for Palestinians.
We are witnessing the third major Israeli military offensive in Gaza in six years. The current unjust status quo has sadly led to rocket attacks into Israel and cyclical military action on Gaza. Both sides claim to be responding to the other's aggression. Without a structural change to the relationship be¬tween Israel and the Palestinians, it is inevitable that this cycle will continue.
The Irish Government, along with its European partners, must play an active role in breaking this cycle. Until we are prepared to do more than issue empty words of condemnation, the cycle of violence will continue.
We call on the Government to affirm its commitment to a long-term political solution based on a full adherence to international human rights and humanitarian law by both Palestinians and Israelis. In recently issued advice to Irish citizens and businesses, the Government noted: "Israeli settlements are illegal under international law, constitute an obstacle to peace and threaten to make a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict impossible".
Recognising this, we call on the Government to ban all trade with illegal Israeli settlements, thus reducing the economic incentive for Israel to continue to confiscate land from Palestinians in the West Bank.
Working towards a long-term political solution based on peace and justice is the only way to ensure the security of Palestinians and Israelis.
It is a fallacy to think that cyclical military invasions of Gaza will- bring security to Israel. This policy will only lead to more violence and death on both sides.
Yours, etc,
EAMONN MEEHAN, executive director, Trocaire,
ROSAMOND BENNETT, chief executive officer, Christian Aid Ireland,
DR. SEAN HEALY, director, Social Justice Ireland,
DAVID BEGG, general secretary, Irish Council of Trade Unions,
JACK O'CONNOR, general president, SIPTU,
DR MAUREEN O'CONNOR, School of English, University College Cork,
PROF KATHLEEN LYNCH, School of Social Justice, University College Dublin,
PROF LUKE GIBBONS, Department of English, NUIMaynooth,
DR EITHNE O'CONNELL, School of Applied Language and Intercultural Studies, Dublin City University, DR DES McGUINNESS, School of Communications,DCU,
DR ANNE MULHALL, School of English, Drama & Film, University College Dublin,
DR IAIN ATACK, International Peace Studies, Trinity College Dublin,
DR BILL McSWEENEY, International Peace Studies Programme, Trinity College Dublin,
PROF DAVID LANDY, Department of Sociology, Trinity College Dublin,
DIARMUID O'BRIEN, deputy principal. Ballyfermot College of Further Education,
DR PETER COLLINS, Department of History, St Mary's University College Belfast
DR MARTIN J POWER, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick,
DR BILL DORRIS, School of Communications, Dublin City University,
DR EMER Ni-BHRADAIGB • Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences, Dublin City University      
MARIE CRAWLEY, chairperson, Sadaka-The Ireland Palestine Alliance

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:43 AM

"Now more than ever, the people of Palestine need your support."

No Christmas - Now more than ever before the people of Palestine need a massive injection of commonsense and leaders that will actually look after THEIR interests and well being.

Loved your link on the tunnels Christmas, pity that you didn't read it first.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:40 AM

"Egypt has already destroyed the smuggling tunnels Jim."
Some of them Keith
You really aren't worth arguing with, you are neither intelligent nor knowledgeable enough and your arguments can be summed up in four words "Isreal never dun nuffin'" plain and simple.
Go and atrocity deny elsewhere, your cover's long blown here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:03 AM

Te Israelis are intending to destroy all tunnels, as they always have

Egypt has already destroyed the smuggling tunnels Jim.
Israel needs to destroy the attack tunnels built (when Israel removed restrictions on building materials) to attack their civilians.

- as with the killing of civilians, they don't discriminate between combatants and non-combatants.

Yes they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 04:47 AM

Te Israelis are intending to destroy all tunnels, as they always have - as with the killing of civilians, they don't discriminate between combatants and non-combatants.
Following a superb letter in last Monday's Irish Times (I'll put it up later), and another in the Irish Independent
IRISH INDEPENDENT
There seems to be a serious move to boycot Israeli goods - it's time Israel is treated in the same manner as was the South Africa it seems to have become
Jim Carroll


Take Action to Protest the Israeli slaughter in Gaza!
Ten things you can do



All over Ireland there are people who are extremely angry over Israel's invasion of Gaza and the appalling barabrity of its actions there which has killed and injured 1000's of people and made a wasteland of Gaza. Aside from joining the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign (IPSC), here are some practical ways in which you can help support the Palestinian people.

1) Protests: All over Ireland protests have been organised in solidarity with Gaza. Check the IPSC Events Calendar for news about all the latest protests. If there are no protests in your area, you may want to find a few like minded people, form an organising committee and plan something - from a silent vigil to a march to a banner drop. Protests are vitally important in that they pressure our government to act. Equally importantly, they show the people of Gaza that they are not alone, that the world is appalled by the horror visited on them by the Israeli murder machine.

2) Retail Boycott: A powerful weapon in the hands of the individual is the boycott campaign. The IPSC is currently trying to set up 'Apartheid Free Zones' (AFZs) in localities around the country. For more information and to get involved in the AFZ campaign please see here or email consumerboycott [at] ipsc.ie .

Of course, there are other ways individuals and groups can get involved in boycotting Israeli products - print out / photocopy the IPSC Boycott Leaflet and distribute them, demand to see the managers of shops selling Israeli goods and ask that they are removed from the stores' shelves. In Ireland the Israeli products which consumers can most easily identify and boycott are: citrus fruits and vegetables (potatoes and herbs); Keter garden sheds and storage boxes, Stanley tool boxes in Atlantic Homecare, Woodies DIY and other hardware shops; Dead Sea cosmetics - promoted and sold in Debenhams, and other department stores countywide; diamonds – Israel is the world's largest producer of cut and polished gem stones. Demand Israel-free diamonds, crafted in countries which respect human rights.

You can also write a letter to shops. We have a template of a letter to write to store managers, asking them to cease stocking Israeli goods. You can find this at below. Send even one letter or email, and tell your friends about it - it will make a difference.

SAMPLE LETTER TO SHOPS STOCKING ISRAELI GOODS - CLICK HERE FOR A LETTER SPECIFIC TO OUTLETS ALLOWING DEAD SEA SPA PRODUCTS TO BE SOLD ON THEIR PREMISES.

Dear Manager,

I am a regular shopper in your store and I am deeply concerned that you are selling Israeli produce such as …. I would like to ask you to remove these Israeli products, since they come from a country which continues a brutal and illegal military occupation of the occupied Palestinian territories. Much Israeli agricultural produce comes from illegal settlements on Palestinian land, although it is routinely mislabelled as coming from within Israel's borders.

Even before the latest mass killings of the population of Gaza, the Palestinians have suffered long enough. The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is now in its 40th year, the longest military occupation in the world. This occupation is in contravention of numerous international laws and conventions. Human rights organisations such as Amnesty International have noted that over 4,000 Palestinians, most of them unarmed civilians and including over 1000 children, have been killed in the past 6 years by Israeli forces. Israel has destroyed thousands of Palestinian homes and crucial civilian infrastructure, including power plants, roads, bridges, sewage and telephone networks. Restrictions imposed on the movements of Palestinians and Palestinian goods have made normal life impossible.

B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights group, describes the situation as bearing "clear similarities to the apartheid regime that existed in South Africa". The United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights, John Dugard agrees, stating that the system of control that Israel uses is effectively a system of apartheid.

Last year, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions recognised Israel's apartheid nature, and recognised the role Irish workers and unions played in promoting the boycott of South African goods when it was under apartheid rule. As a result, they voted unanimously to support a full boycott of Israeli goods, joining in the growing international call for a boycott.

This boycott is called for by Palestinian civil society. Boycotting Israeli goods offers a non-violent tactic towards change. It is both a moral and effective means to achieve a just and peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I sincerely hope that your shop will stop stocking goods from Israel, and look forward to your reply. However, if you choose to support Israeli war crimes, and continue stocking Israeli goods, I'm afraid I will have to take my custom elsewhere.

Yours sincerely

Please inform us of any replies you receive by emailing [e-mail]. Thanks!

3) Cultural, economic, sporting and academic boycott of Israel: Not buying Israeli goods is something immediate we can all do. A more long-term and effective campaign needs to operate on all fronts: sporting, cultural, academic, financial and so on.

You can promote the boycott in your everyday life. Whether you are a trade unionist, a university teacher, a member of a pension fund, a church group or sporting association, you can promote boycott and discussion of boycott in your work and in the groups you are involved in - IPSC are happy to provide speakers if you require them. It is only by operating in all these areas that this boycott campaign will be successful. So it's up to you!

4) Write to TDs, Senators and MEPs: Demand action from your elected representatives, demand that they condemn these Israeli atrocities and that they move to a) institute a diplomatic boycott of Israel until it ends its offensive on Gaza and complies fully with its obligations under International Law. b) Demand that the Irish government uses its influence in the EU to push for the suspension of Israel from the Euro-Med Agreement which grants it favourable trading status with the EU. c) Demand that Ireland cease all economic relations with Israel. Below is a sample letter which you can send, and you can find the emails for all Irish TDs here, Senators here and MEPs here. Or use this useful website - http://www.contact.ie/

SAMPLE LETTER TO ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES:

Dear [name],

I am writing in digust at the Israeli attack on Gaza which has left 1,000s dead or injured, and has left Gaza a wasteland. These appalling actions constitute severe war crimes and I will not stand idly by while they occur in the face of inaction by the Irish government, the European Union and the United Nations. Yes, members of our government have condemned the attacks - but words are no longer enough, action is needed and it is needed now. Israel cannot be allowed to get away with these massacres of a largely defenceless population.

I demand that Irleand use its influence in the UN to ensure the opening of the borders to Gaza to enable emergency humanitarian aid into the area, regardless of the bullying and ruthless threats by Israel;
I call on Minister for Foreign Affairs, Micheál Martin, to insist in the EU Council of Ministers on the suspension of the EU trade agreement with Israel under Clause 2 of the Association Agreement;
I call on the Irish government to diplomatically boycott Israel until it ceases its attacks on Gaza and fully complies with its obligations under International Law;
I call on the Irish government to support the call from Palestinian civil society for a complete economic, cultural, academic and sporting boycott of the Israeli state until it ceases its attacks on Gaza and fully complies with its obligations under International Law;
I call on all Irish parliamentarians to stand by their illegally imprisoned colleagues in Palestine;
I call for a restoration of the ceasefire under terms which the international community must enforce, including the ending of the economic and political blockade of Gaza, and indeed of the West Bank;
I demand that the Irish government use its influence on the world stage to seek a solution in Palestine which respects the rights of Israelis and Palestinians, and secures for Palestinians their national and democratic rights. Only then will there be a settlement.
Yours sincerely,

5) Tie up the phone lines: The Israeli Embassy phone number is 01 6680 303. The US Embassy phone number is 01 6688 777. The Irish Department of Foreign Affairs number is 01 4780822. We suggest phoning them and making your concerns known - in particular it would be worth asking the Department for the Irish government to take concrete action at EU and UN level - actions such as international sanctions, and for the explusion of the Israeli Ambassador.

6) Write a letter to the newspapers: The Israeli embassy is urging Zionists in Ireland and abroad to flood the Irish papers with support for their mass murder. A letter, even a short one (especially a short one, in fact!) to the papers is an important way to spread the truth.

Some points you can raise:

a. Nothing, but nothing justifies the mass murder of hundreds of innocent civilians and the terrorisation of over a million and a half people in Gaza.

b. Israel is the aggressor in this conflict. It is illegally occupying Palestinian territory and during the truce from July to December imposed a savage siege on the civilian population of Gaza that starved them of food, drinking water, and basic supplies such as paper, electricity, medicines.

c. More immediately Israel is the aggressor. During the truce observed by Hamas, Israel killed 25 people in Gaza, including 8 children. As even CNN acknowledges now, it was Israeli killings in November that finally led Hamas to resume firing homemade rockets.

d. The homemade rockets. During September and October a total of two homemade rockets were fired from Gaza (and not by Hamas). Israel continued to violate the truce and starve the people of Gaza

e. The democratically elected Hamas government has repeatedly called for an extension of the ceasefire. They have declared their military campaign will stop once Israel respects international law and withdraws from the Occupied Territories.

f. Millions of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have lived in terror and under occupation for the last 40 years. It is these Palestinians we should be supporting.

g. While there are thousands marching in Israel calling for 'death to the Arabs', there are also tens of thousands of Israelis marching against the war. It is these Israelis we should be supporting.

The national papers you can write to are as follows:

Irish Times: [e-mail]

Irish Independent: [e-mail]

Irish Examiner: [e-mail]

Evening Herald: [e-mail]

Metro: [e-mail]

Daily Mail: [e-mail]

Sunday Tribune: [e-mail]

Sunday Independent: [e-mail]

Mail on Sunday: [e-mail]

If you send a letter to the papers, could you cc us at [e-mail]. Thanks!

7) Sign an online petition calling for ceasefire:

The IPSC petition is here: http://www.petitiononline.com/ipsc2009/

There are many such petitions. One of the biggest, with hundreds of thousands of signatures, is here: http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_time_for_peace/96.php?CLICK_TF_TRACK

Also

http://www.petitiononline.com/SaveGaza/

There is also this trilingual petition

http://www.petitiononline.com/freegaza/petition.html

In addition there are many facebook and myspace petitions circulating. The more signatures they get the more effective they will be. Take two minutes out and add your signature.

8) Get involved in the IPSC: Once this round of terror subsides, Palestinians will still live under military occupation, in exile, and encased in an apartheid regime within Israel itself. They need your ongoing support. IPSC runs a range of activities throughout the year you can get involved in.

You can subscribe to our mailing list to receive a weekly newsletter. You'll get up-to-date news articles and analysis of the current situation in Palestine, and details of IPSC and other Paletsinian related events you can take part in.

9) Support the work of the IPSC: IPSC in a small volunteer organisation that runs on very limited resources. In order for us to do our work effectively we need your financial help. You can support us financially by taking out a Standing Order, or donating online. The Standing orders help us greatly to keep our campaign work going, grow as an organisation and plan effectively for the future.

10) Above all, get informed: Israel spends tens of millions on propaganda in the media, but there are still many good sources of information about Israel/Palestine. For instance:

Alternative Information Center
Joint Palestinian-Israeli organization

Electronic Intifada
News, views, reports and statements relating to Palestine

International Middle East Media Center
Palestinian based news site (in English)

Stop the Wall
International anti-apartheid wall campaign

You'll find more sites on our 'Links' page at http://www.ipsc.ie/links.php

----------------------

Some of these actions will take 5 minutes, some will take a lifetime. We urge you to do something, no matter how small. Now more than ever, the people of Palestine need your support.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 04:35 AM

BBC.
After the failure of Hamas' rocket forces to inflict significant damage on Israeli towns in November 2012, they decided to build a large offensive-tunnel capability that would enable them to infiltrate assault teams into Israeli villages within a few kilometres of the border or place large bombs underneath these villages.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28430298

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 04:27 AM

Again, that was the tunnels into Egypt.
The tunnels into Israel have no function except attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM

These have always been known as smuggler tummels - since the massacre began, Israeli propaganda has turned them into "terror tunnels" just as it has turned resistance to Israeli state terrorism into "terrorism"
You, being a strong supporter of Israeli State terrorism , are well aware of this.
Jim Carroll

SMUGGLING TUNNELS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_smuggling_tunnels

NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:38 AM

"terror tunnels designed to murder and kidnap Israelis and store weapons"
The tunnels were designed for no such reason, they were built to transport essential good that were forbidden by the blockade; many of them became profitable enterprises for those on both sides of the border.   

That is shite Jim.
It may have been partly true of the tunnels into Egypt, but even they had to be closed because they were used to attack Egypt.
The tunnels into Israel are not for smuggling.
They are just for attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM

His statement that Israeli Zionism was in danger of creating Fascist State was exactly what people have been using to defend Israeli state terrorism by describing opposition to it as Antisemitism.
Israel's own report on Sabra/Shatila found itself indirectly responsible, as similar Israeli enquiries will find the present atrocities well withing international law, no doubt!
The independent Redmond enquiry found otherwise, but Israel avoided prosecution through political and economic clout and influence.
The matter has never been resolved, but later information has not only established its role, particularly in providing transport, access, weapons and illumination to allow the killing to continue uninterrupted for three days and in giving assistance in the form of equipment to bury the bodies ad build a stadium over the mass graves - none of these facts are disputable.
You are, of course, right about my confusion between Begin and Sharon - my apologies; though both Begin and Sharon played a part in the massacre.
"The Kahan Commission found that Ariel Sharon "bears personal responsibility",[16]
"At first, Sharon refused to resign, and Begin refused to fire him. It was only after the death of Emil Grunzweig after a grenade was tossed into the dispersing crowd of a Peace Now protest march, which also injured ten others, that a compromise was reached: Sharon would resign as Defense Minister, but remain in the Cabinet as a minister without portfolio. Notwithstanding the dissuading conclusions of the Kahan report, Sharon would later become Prime Minister of Israel"
"That claim makes you seem foolish."
'Course it does John
Does the same apply to Noam Chomski, the ex heads of Mossad, the Israeli soldiers organisation, and all the Israelis using similar terms and adding 'ethic cleansing' and Apartheid' state to their criticism of State behaviour?
Mike - so if I have you right - it's OK for Jews to compare the behaviour of the Israelis to that of the Nazis, but it's Antisemitic for non Jews to do the same, no matter what their feelings for and involvement with the Jewish people might be.
Is that part of the definition or just your own particular refinement- just curious?
I assume your criticism of Israel isn't going to move beyond fruit trees and cameras - are we ever going to know whether you share at our disgust over the massacres which are now taking place?
"terror tunnels designed to murder and kidnap Israelis and store weapons"
The tunnels were designed for no such reason, they were built to transport essential good that were forbidden by the blockade; many of them became profitable enterprises for those on both sides of the border.   
From a National Geographic article:
"After Israel introduced the blockade, smuggling became Gaza's alternative. Through the tunnels under Rafah came everything from building materials and food to medicine and clothing, from fuel and computers to livestock and cars. Hamas smuggled in weapons. New tunnels were dug by the day—by the hour, it seemed—and new fortunes minted. Families sold their possessions to buy in. Some 15,000 people worked in and around the tunnels at their peak, and they provided ancillary work for tens of thousands more, from engineers and truck drivers to shopkeepers. Today Gaza's underground economy accounts for two-thirds of consumer goods, and the tunnels are so common that Rafah features them in official brochures.
"We did not choose to use the tunnels," a government engineer told me. "But it was too hard for us to stand still during the siege and expect war and poverty." For many Gazans, the tunnels, lethal though they can be, symbolize better things: their native ingenuity, the memory and dream of mobility, and perhaps most significant for a population defined by dispossession, a sense of control over the land. The irony that control must be won by going beneath the land is not lost on Gazans."
Of course they will be used to smuggle weapons - there is a war happening at the present time - but the closure of the tunnels has been the long-term aim of the Israelis as part of the blockade in order to starve the Palestinians into accepting Israeli expansionist policy.
If the Israelis have a right to defend themselves, then so have the Palestinians, even more so considering the murderous one-sided slaughter happening at the present time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:25 PM

Jim re Einstein: "...which makes him an Anti-Semite in your books."
Come on, Jim, you're way smarter than that over broad assertion. His was a specific, occasional criticism which no way devolves to the level of being anti-Semitic under any definition of that word. That claim makes you seem foolish.

The things you say about your family fighting fascism and nazism may be true, and God bless them for doing so, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this discussion, unless you think it gives you a pass to espouse your views and not be challenged.

"...ancient history John - get someone to read it to you.
"Knowing this, the Israeli people elected him Prime Minister."
If you read history, Jim, you would know that Begin was THE Prime Minister during the Lebanon War, and shortly afterward resigned following the death of his wife. So one more time--Begin was not at the camps, later to be elected PM; you ARE referring to Ariel Sharon. Right.

There has, further, been virtually no official, direct culpability found against Israel that stands impartial scrutiny. What blame that is assessed is generally indirect.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:20 PM

I seem to recall that we thought that those blokes who built tunnels to get out of Nazi POW camps were heroes. And that the guards who didn't spot that they were doing it were bleedin' idiots. Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:06 PM

OK, you might be thinking, UNRWA surely didn't know that the cement it was praising was being used for building terror tunnels, right?

But as Israel Behind the News reported last year, UNRWA's administrators union is dominated by - Hamas:

    [T]he "administrators union" in UNRWA fell into the hands of Hamas in the union elections which were held in UNRWA facilities in 1999, 2003, 2006, 2009 and later again in 2012.

    In other words, Hamas controls funds and supplies that are dispatched to UNRWA in Gaza.

So, as I had reported recently, lots of the cement that was supposedly earmarked for UNRWA projects was being diverted to Hamas tunnels - and now we see that in all probability, some UNRWA officials were complicit with this crime.

UNRWA praised the smuggling of cement into Gaza in 2011. What did they know then?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:03 PM

As those who pay attention know by now, the entire Strip and much of Southern Israel are riddled with a mammoth network of terror tunnels designed to murder and kidnap Israelis and store weapons while protecting the mega-rich Hamas leadership.

Israeli troops entering Gaza last week have so far uncovered 18 tunnels used by Hamas to send armed terrorists into Israel and built using an estimated 800,000 tons of concrete.

And how did it get there? That concrete was supposedly shipped into Gaza for "humanitarian purposes." Isn't that purportedly the province of the UN? What was there role in it exactly? How did this stunning amount of concrete slip in to be used for evil purposes? Is the American taxpayer innocently being used to finance mass murder? Inquiring minds want to know — the moral ones anyway.

Yes, the United Nations is outside the legal jurisdiction of the U. S. Congress, but a formal investigation should be launched. Some people will have a lot say — and I am sure it will be interesting. The American people can make up their own minds.

Congress Must Investigate the UN Role in Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:51 PM

the UN would be indicted for war crimes

Yoy really ARE a a nutcase, aintcha, Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:45 PM

If there was any justice in this world UNRWA and it's parent agency the UN would be indicted for war crimes:

"Three IDF soldiers were killed on Wednesday in Gaza in an explosion at a booby-trapped UNRWA health clinic that housed the opening of a tunnel, the IDF's Gaza Division commander, Brig. Gen. Micky Edelstein, said.

The clinic had apparently been abandoned by its UN personnel. UNRWA did not immediately respond to a request for comment."

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 06:35 PM

Yeah, I understand your pain, Bullshot-

Those Hamas folks building illegal settlements, herding Israelis into concentration camps (refuge camps), blockading food and medical supplies from entering Israel, subjecting Israelis to illegal searches and seizures, violating the human rights of Israelis--- ya gotta hate them Hamas folks, eh?

Which brings us back to:

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:38 PM

""War doesn't determine who's right - only who's left.""
(Bertrand Russell) 

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:30 PM

Not The Lion Of Judah though?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:24 PM

Thank you. Keith. Glad to give satisfaction.

≈≈Grr·ROARrr·Rrr!≈≈

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM

As to Mrs S & her daughter: I must say that I, personally, do not doubt the veracity of Jim's story. Mrs S obviously shared my [more-than] disappointment with the way that the Zionist dream of our youth has turned sour. The fact that the terms she saw fit to employ to express her disappointment were ones that I personally consider inappropriate was a matter for her -- as indeed for Einstein when he (injudiciously in my view) used such locutions. Such terms as 'fascist', 'Nazi', and so forth, as they might have seen fit to use, being uttered by, as it were, 'outsiders', '3rd parties', 'the non-involved', or whatever, introduces an additional dimension of IMO extreme undesirability and offensiveness to the discourse, which those not actually malignantly motivated would do well, to my mind, to eschew.

I would prefer to think Jim not malignantly motivated, is all.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:19 PM

I like the new version of your name Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:10 PM

"Well, Einstein was known to be a strong supporter for creation of the Israeli state,"
Yes he was - and he compared Begin's actions at Yeir Dassin to that of the Nazis - which makes him an Anti-Semite in your books.
My family weer strong supporters of the establishment of the Israeli State - some went to jail for their anti-fascist activities, my father fought in a war, was wounded an became a prisoner of war in opposition to what was happening in pre-war Europe.
When he died in the mid 1960s our house was full of Jews he had fought beside and in some cases, shared a cell with in Spain - so all of you may stick your accusations of Antisemitism up your collective holes.
"You are wrong, of course, about Begin facilitating Sabra/Shatilla. "
No I am not - he was found to be the culprit of that massacre, delivering the Falangists to the site and giving them access, providing illumination while they raped and slaughtered over three days, then driving them away from the site and hiding the evidence - ancient history John - get someone to read it to you.
Knowing this, the Israeli people elected him Prime Minister.
"the tone of that post was disagreeable and unworthy."
I constantly bathe in the glow of your accusations of Antisemitism Mike and have for a long time now - fully worthy of a rightist such as yourself - heat -kitchen and all that.
And still no response to my questions from any of you.
Antisemitism is very much the domain of the right nowadays
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/highlight/son-of-hamas-leader-says-destruction-of-israel-is-not-hamas-end-goal/53d688d4fe344487

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM

"Hamas security officers asked freelance British journalist Harry Fear to leave Gaza within 24 hours on Tuesday after he wrote on Twitter about a nearby rocket launch, according to the Committee To Protect Journalists. The press freedom group said the Hamas authorities in Gaza published media guidelines three weeks ago warning journalists against publishing information about militant operations."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:12 PM

"Einstein made such a comparison when the butcher of Deir Yassin, Menachem Begin, was invited to The United States.
Begin, of course, went on to facilitate the Sabra Shatila Massacre - he was rewarded by the people of Israel by being elected prime Minister.
Was Einstein an Anti- Semite?
The first person I ever heard to refer to the Israelis as Fascists was a Jewish girlfriend - her mother pointedly showed me the number tattooed on the inside of her forearm a little before she agreed with her daughter.
Was[sic] Mrs S and her daughter Anti Semites?"

Many times in various Israel/Palestine threads over the years, you and others have made the charge, by questioning,innuendo, that Einstein was an anti-Semite because he criticized and warned against Menachem Begin and the Irgun. Well, Einstein was known to be a strong supporter for creation of the Israeli state, so much so that he was asked to become its first president. You over-reach with that question. Re-read the documents, links to which I last posted on The Caliphate thread; they are avail as posted en toto by others on other threads.

You are wrong, of course, about Begin facilitating Sabra/Shatilla. You are thinking of circumstantial linkage of later Prime Minister Sharon, I'm sure.

Finally,you personal anecdote about Mrs S and her daughter is unverifiable to the rest of us,and so cannot be answered by us.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:07 PM

To repeat, since Greggie has a problem with anything not NOW,

For example, civilians may not be used in an attempt to render an area immune from military

operations. Also, civilians may not be used to shield a defensive position, to hide military

objectives, or to screen an attack. Neither may they be forced to leave their homes or shelters in

order to disrupt the movement of an adversary.

A4.2.2. Military Objectives. Military attacks must be directed only against military objectives. Military

objectives are those objects which by their nature, location, purpose, or use make an effective

contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture, or neutralization in the

circumstances offers a definite military advantage.

A4.2.2.1. Many objects are clearly military objectives --for example, the enemy's military

encampments or armament (such as military aircraft, tanks, antiaircraft emplacements, and troops

in the field). Factories, workshops, and plants that directly support the needs of the enemy's armed

forces are also generally conceded to be legitimate military objectives.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM

For all your hysteria, Jim ~~ the tone of that post was disagreeable and unworthy. But If you can't see why, then you can't.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:40 PM

Greggie boy,

You should blame those responsible, HAMAS, who puts military sites in schools, mosques, and apartment complexes, and conducts military operations surrounded by Palestinian civilians as human shields.

But then, YOU approve of killing Palestinian civilians in order to make Israel look bad, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM

"You will doubtless deny that is an antisemitic remark, Jim; "
I most certainly do, and you and your bit of paper have yet to show otherwise, though you have had ample chance to do so
My remarks are aimed at Israeli terrorism and the slaughter of the Palestinian people - nothing to do with Jews
You were the first individual ever to refer to me directly as an Antisemite - in those days it was because of the number of criticisms I made of Israeli policy - since then, you have found a bit of paper to conveniently hide behind, other than the good old stand-by of six million dead Jews.
As Bruce the Bearded Belligerent drew attention to, though he didn't mean to, I'm sure, the Jewish people are suffering increases in Anti-Semitic attacks, largely due to Israeli policy.
You and yours have never had the balls to respond to the fact that prominent and loyal Jews have, in the past and continue to refer to what is happening in Israel as 'Fascism' and to compare it to the behavior of the Nazis - perhaps you would like to break the habit of a lifetime and do so now?
Einstein made such a comparison when the butcher of Deir Yassin, Menachem Begin, was invited to The United States.
Begin, of course, went on to facilitate the Sabra Shatila Massacre - he was rewarded by the people of Israel by being elected prime Minister.
Was Einstein an Anti- Semite?
The first person I ever heard to refer to the Israelis as Fascists was a Jewish girlfriend - her mother pointedly showed me the number tattooed on the inside of her forearm a little before she agreed with her daughter.
Was Mrs S and her daughter Anti Semites?
I get more than a little tired of your dishonesty and hypocrisy.
You and your mouthpiece Keith constantly refer to me and others who oppose Israeli policy as (loony) "lefties", yet it is you rightists who have done the most damage to the Jewish People over the 8 decades (the span of yur lifetime, and nearly mine).
It was the rise of the fascist RIGHT in Germany, which led to the persecution of Jews and eventually to the extermination of six million of their number.
The political RIGHT in Britain, supported that rise in a negative way by inaction and by penalising those who tried to oppose it by criminalising them and branding them "premature anti-fascists".
In and active sense, the British RIGHT produced Sir Oswald Mosely, Captain Archibald Maule Ramsay (whose Antisemitic poetry, written at the height of the exterminations, was once described by Keith as "harmless as the Dad's Army theme song") and the 12th Duke of Wellington (who died ranting at "the Jews") and a whole host of others ready to form a government when Herr Hitler won the war (this happy band included a crowned ex-monarch and his consort).
Antisemitism is very much the province of the extreme RIGHT in Britain and to be accused of being such by such extreme rightists as you Keith and Bullying Brucie, really isn't going to lead me to losing very much sleep, so feel free to look in the mirror the next time mood takes you, always remembering, of course, that it is you and not us who have implicated the Jewish people in Israeli war crimes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM

MORE DEAD PALESTINIANS to blame on Israel!

As Israel is doing the killing, Bullshot, who SHOULD I blame the indescriminate (or at least criminally sloppy) killing of innocent civilians on?

Tralfamadorians?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 02:13 PM

That is YOUR description, Greggie boy.

I regret ANY deaths ON EITHER SIDE- but as long as Hamas attacks Israel, there will be deaths, Why have you NEVER said that Hamas should stop launching anti-personnel rockets at Israeli civilians?

They are killing MORE of their own people than they are killing Israelis, since Hamas never built ANY shelters for their civilians, just for their troops and rockets.


But you three stooges seem quite happy about that. MORE DEAD PALESTINIANS to blame on Israel!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 02:09 PM

Yo, Boo & Bullshot: anything germaine to say regarding the latest slaughter of innocents except "Palestinian nits make Palestinian lice"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 02:04 PM

"Our doctrine in fighting you (the Jews) is that we will totally exterminate you. We will not leave a single one of you alive, because you are alien usurpers of the land and eternal mercenaries."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM

A4.2.1.2. Requirement to Distinguish . The requirement to distinguish between combatants

and civilians and between military objectives and civilian objects imposes obligations on all the

parties to a conflict. This is true whatever the legal status of the territory on or over which combat

occurs. For example, civilians may not be used in an attempt to render an area immune from military

operations. Also, civilians may not be used to shield a defensive position, to hide military

objectives, or to screen an attack. Neither may they be forced to leave their homes or shelters in

order to disrupt the movement of an adversary.

A4.2.2. Military Objectives. Military attacks must be directed only against military objectives. Military

objectives are those objects which by their nature, location, purpose, or use make an effective

contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture, or neutralization in the

circumstances offers a definite military advantage.

A4.2.2.1. Many objects are clearly military objectives --for example, the enemy's military

encampments or armament (such as military aircraft, tanks, antiaircraft emplacements, and troops

in the field). Factories, workshops, and plants that directly support the needs of the enemy's armed

forces are also generally conceded to be legitimate military objectives.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 02:00 PM

More of that Israeli "precision accuracy"[sic]:


JEBALIYA REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip (AP) — An Israeli airstrike hit a crowded Gaza shopping area on Wednesday, killing at least 16 people and wounding more than 150, hours after Israeli tank shells slammed into a U.N. school sheltering displaced Palestinians, killing 15 people, Gaza health officials said.

The latest deadly strikes comes after more than three weeks of fighting that has killed more than 1,300 Palestinians and more than 50 Israelis.

Gaza health ministry official Ashraf al-Kidra and witnesses said the shopping area was busy because residents, and many who had taken shelter in the area from fighting elsewhere, thought a cease-fire was in place. The Palestinian Red Crescent confirmed the death toll.

The Israeli military had no immediate comment on the strike on the shopping area and said it was investigating the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 01:50 PM

Just for the record.

Israel is targeting Hamas and it's affiliated terrorist groups which are hiding behind civilians in schools, hospitals, mosques and residential districts. Some civilians are unfortunately killed and injured because of the terrorists cynical ploy. The aim of Hamas is to stoke the flames of Jew hatred worldwide. The kind of hatred which is currently on display across the world shows how easy this is to do and how good Hamas is at doing it. This is turn encourages Hamas to sacrifice more of its citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

Just for the record.

It is a WAR CRIME to site military supplies and operations among civilians BECAUSE THE CIVILIANS THEN LOSE THE PROTECTION OF the protected area.


You have YET to complain that HAMAS is committing WAR CRIMES by their OWN REPORTS.

THAT seems to be OK with you, as long as you can blame Israel for the deaths HAMAS is responsible for.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 01:30 PM

Just for the record.

Israeli militants are doing the killing.

Braidedbeardedbruce's argument is identical to the nazi concentration camp guards who went down the line killing children till the person building the tunnel admitted to it. Their defence at Nuremberg was that it was the tunnel builder who was guilty of the killing for not stepping forward sooner.

Quite. Although I never thought that in 2014 anybody would use that precedent. Seems I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM

'"vacant UNRWA school and at another school a week before." "
Pity it was vacant - the Israelis would have had an excuse for killing a dozen or so more refugee children
Jim Carroll'
,..,.,

You will doubtless deny that is an antisemitic remark, Jim; just an anti-Israel one, which you will plead is something quite else. & maybe so, at that.

But can you deny that there is a slurpily nastily nauseatingly self-satisfiedly vindictive tone about it? It might not be explicitly antisemitic; but it is intensely disagreeable and I think you should be ashamed of it.

But I don't expect for a moment that you will be...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 01:08 PM

You mean that Hamas would have had the chance to kill those children and blame Israel.

That would certainly make you and your fellow stooges happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 12:59 PM

"vacant UNRWA school and at another school a week before." "
Pity it was vacant - the Israelis would have had an excuse for killing a dozen or so more refugee children
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

Right Greggie.

You can't keep track of your lies without extensive notes, then?

If we are talking about NOW, and not 64 years ago, ISRAEL has possesion of the West Bank, and you are saying all the Palestinians should go away, like the Christians and Jews driven out in 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 12:35 PM

Oh, now I gotcha, Bullshot- response to a post 14+ hours ago with 30 posts in between. Back then. Uh Huh.

You COULD reference what you're bullshotting on about, you know- help keep things straight in your own mind (or what passes for it) if nothing else.

Speaking of "back then": we're not discussing what you were doing 64 years ago, Bullshot - we're talking about NOW. Try to keep up, eh? Its a different world, ya know.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 12:14 PM

Sorry did I actually write that theUN did the slaughtering - not even the Israei'sd have got round to blaming them - yet, early days though!
M7 lag on my part, but 'twill give the usual suspects an excuse not to respond
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM

"UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon last week expressed alarm that rockets had been discovered at a vacant UNRWA school and at another school a week before."

I am shocked, shocked I tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM

Jabilaya school, taken over by the U.N. as a refugee centre was attacked by the U.N. yesterday result Israelis-19, Non combatants-0
The U.N. informed the Israelis of the use of the school, including theexact location on 17 occasions, the last time being on the day of the attack
The dead included children and U.N officials.
"Oh look, there's one of those Hamas chappies isn't it?" - bang, bang, bang - another hundred dead civilians.
"Israel over all" as someone nearly said.
"Are you listening, Jim?"
Sorry Mike, can't hear you over all the screams of the dying children - are you counting the dead - has it reached genocide on your sliding scale yet?
Con't suppose there's anywhere near enough to remind you of anything!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM

"Palestinian and Israeli leaders finally recover the Road Map to Peace, only to discover that, while they were looking for it, the Lug Nuts of Mutual Interest came off the Front Left Wheel of Accommodation, causing the Sport Utility Vehicle of Progress to crash into the Ditch of Despair." 
― Dave Barry, Dave Barry's History of the Millennium

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM

shhh. another Hamas war crime to ignore…


"Gaza: The United Nations agency that looks after Palestinian refugees said it had found a cache of rockets at one of its schools in the Gaza Strip and deplored those who had put them there.

United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) spokesman Chris Gunness condemned those responsible for placing civilians in harm's way by storing the rockets at the school but he did not specifically blame any party.

"We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school. This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises. We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of UN property," Mr Gunness said.

Israel has claimed throughout the three-week conflict that Hamas and other Islamic militant groups have used schools and other civilian sites to store weapons, making them legitimate targets.

Israel has targeted a handful of UN sites during three weeks of fighting in the campaign against Islamist militants in the Gaza Strip, and has in the past said the agency's property was used for hostile purposes.
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon last week expressed alarm that rockets had been discovered at a vacant UNRWA school and at another school a week before."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM

So, Greggie,

You don't even bother to read YOUR OWN posts???


"
Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM

Hey Bullshot:

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

Like hating them durn Palestinians, you mean - right?
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:08 AM

Sorry, Greggie boy. When I was that age,....

Bullshot, what the hell are you going on about? You appaently HAVE lost it completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

Here's that pin-point Israeli accuracy again- hey, what's 700 feet give or take?

**

Shelling of UN school kills 15 as Gaza war rages
By KARIN LAUB and PETER ENAV, Associated Press
Wednesday, July 30, 2014

JEBALIYA REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli tank shells slammed into a crowded U.N. school sheltering Gazans displaced by fighting on Wednesday, killing 15 and wounding 90 after tearing through the walls of two classrooms, a spokesman for a U.N. aid agency and a health official said.

Israeli airstrikes and shelling also killed 40 Palestinians elsewhere in the coastal territory Wednesday, including multiple members of two families struck in their homes, health officials said.

The Israeli military said mortar shells had been fired from near the school, and that soldiers fired back. The mortars were fired from a distance of some 200 meters (yards) from the school, said an Israeli military official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM

I posted this earlier in the Caliphate thread, which has been hijacked for another anti-Israel thread.

Time magazine yesterday.

"Fatality figures provided by Hamas and other groups should be viewed with suspicion. Not only do Israeli figures cast doubt on claims that the vast majority of fatalities are non-combatants, but a careful review of Palestinian sources also raises doubts.

Analyses of the casualties listed in the daily reports published by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, a Gaza-based organization operating under Hamas rule, indicate that young males ages 17 to 30 make up a large portion of the fatalities, and a particularly noticeable spike occurs between males ages 21 to 27, a pattern consistent with the age distribution typically found among combatants and military conscripts. Palestinian sources attempt to conceal this discrepancy with their public message by labeling most of these young men as civilians. Only a minority is identified as members of armed groups. As a result, the PCHR calculates civilian fatalities at 82% as of July 26. PCHR provides the most detailed casualty reports of the various Palestinian agencies from Gaza that provide figures to the media and to international organizations like the UN. Its figures closely match those of the Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry and other groups.

We have seen this before. A similar dispute over casualty figures occurred during Israel's "Operation Cast Lead" in the Gaza Strip in January 2009. The Israelis contended that the majority of the fatalities were combatants; the Palestinians claimed they were civilians. The media and international organizations tended to side with the Palestinians. The UN's own investigatory commission headed by Richard Goldstone, which produced the Goldstone Report, cited PCHR's figures along with other Palestinian groups providing similar figures. Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report. "
http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/
http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

Iran, not satisfied with the number of Gazans its proxy Hamas is causing to be slaughtered, is now planning not only to rearm them but to also arm the West Bank.

Iranian official: We'll arm West Bank with missiles

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM

Steve Shaw: "You really are barking mad, aren't you, minnow. Are you sure you're not Bibi's uncle? :-)"


MY PREVIOUS POST:

"Europe saw some of the ugliest eruptions of blatant anti-Semitism since the 1940s. Critics of Israel often claim that Israel unfairly hides from critics by charging anti-Semitism, but cries of "death to the Jews," "slit the Jews throats," or "Jews to the gas chambers" along with the smashing and torching of Jewish-owned shops and attacks on synagogues, have pulled back the cover, revealing anti-Jewish sentiment that still runs deep, and in most cases remains unspoken in polite circles. We will find out how seriously European leaders address the matter now that we have found what lay hidden behind the curtain of civil discourse."

http://us.cnn.com/2014/07/29/opinion/ghitis-israel-palestine/index.html


So, Steve, it is certainly YOUR sanity ( or your deliberate bigotry) that needs to be looked at.

I GAVE the reference- Did you bother to look at it before you made fun of it?

I guess not- facts are much too inconvenient for the likes of you and the Three Stooges ( Musket, GregF, and Jimmy)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

Sorry, Greggie boy.

When I was that age, I was playing with the Palestinians that lived across the street. But they were ones who had been driven out of Ramallah BY THE ARAB LEAGUE in 1948. THEIR land has been taken by the present PLO for it's capital.

But since it was not Israel that took their land, I guess that you don't give a damn.

As usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:52 AM

"The real utility of the body count is that it offers reporters and commentators who cite it the chance to ascribe implicit blame to Israel while evading questions about ultimate responsibility for the killing. Questions such as: Why is Hamas hiding rockets in U.N.-run schools, as acknowledged by the U.N. itself? What does it mean that Hamas has turned Gaza's central hospital into "a de facto headquarters," as reported by the Washington Post? And why does Hamas keep rejecting, or violating, cease-fires agreed to by Israel?

A reasonable person might conclude from this that Hamas, which started the war, wants it to continue, and that it relies on Israel's moral scruples not to destroy civilian sites that it cynically uses for military purposes. But then there is the Palestine Effect. By this reasoning, Hamas only initiated the fighting because Israel refused to countenance the creation of a Palestinian coalition that included Hamas, and because Israel further objected to helping pay the salaries of Hamas's civil servants in Gaza.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM

Stephens goes on with another extremely important point. He points out that this body count we keep getting of dead Palestinian civilians is most likely completely bogus. Why? Because the media is using the numbers supplied them by… Hamas! The one group that has a vested interest in making sure there is a large civilian death rate–whether there really is one or not–is the one "reporting" those statistics. And the western media is lapping it up.

To cast doubt on the 82 percent civilian deaths statistic Hamas is reporting, Stephens notes that Hamas also reported exactly the same percentage in the 2008-09 Gaza conflict. Gee what a coinicdence, eh?

"When minutely exact statistics are provided in chaotic circumstances, it suggests the statistics are garbage," Stephens says. "When a news organization relies—without clarification—on data provided by a bureaucratic organ of a terrorist organization, there's something wrong there, too."

"A reasonable person might conclude from this that Hamas, which started the war, wants it to continue, and that it relies on Israel's moral scruples not to destroy civilian sites that it cynically uses for military purposes," Stephen sensibly says.

Then are these two important, morally based paragraphs noting that this whole incursion is the fault of the so-called Palestinians, not Israel:

"Let's get this one straight. Israel is culpable because (a) it won't accept a Palestinian government that includes a terrorist organization sworn to the Jewish state's destruction; (b) it won't help that organization out of its financial jam; and (c) it won't ease a quasi-blockade—jointly imposed with Egypt—on a territory whose central economic activity appears to be building rocket factories and pouring imported concrete into terrorist tunnels.
This is either bald moral idiocy or thinly veiled bigotry. It mistakes effect for cause, treats self-respect as arrogance and self-defense as aggression, and makes demands of the Jewish state that would be dismissed out of hand anywhere else. To argue the Palestinian side, in this war, is to make the case for barbarism. It is to erase, in the name of humanitarianism, the moral distinctions from which the concept of humanity arises."

Exactly right.

So, the upshot is, if you support the Palis, you are an immoral cretin who supports terrorism, lies, and murder. On top of that you aren't very intelligent.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM

http://online.wsj.com/articles/bret-stephens-palestine-makes-you-dumb-1406590159

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:33 AM

And the TRUTH shall set you free.

Hamas kills its own citizens and then blames it on Israel.

On Monday, reports rocketed around the globe of a humanitarian disaster at the Al-Shati refugee camp in Gaza. Eyewitness reports were shared on social media and in news articles and reports of the horrific civilian casualties. Many a finger was pointed at Israel. NBC reported it as a "strike" carried out by an "Israeli drone," stating that it struck in an area full of children.

Israel claimed in response that the incident was the result of a Hamas rocket misfire, rather than an Israeli strike, a claim met with skepticism by many. This morning, an Italian reporter who was in Gaza until today has bolstered Israel's claim, apparently confirming on Twitter that the explosion was indeed the result of a Hamas rocket.

    Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris

    — gabrielebarbati (@gabrielebarbati) July 29, 2014

The reporter makes a point that he had to wait until he was safely away from potential Hamas retaliation for reporting this. Other reporters in Gaza, perhaps even NBC reporters, may surely be under similar pressure to watch what they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 06:56 AM

In his new book, "Making David Into Goliath: How the World Turned Against Israel" (Encounter Books), Joshua Muravchik, a fellow at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, details the historic campaign to demonize the Mideast's one consistent democracy. Here, he explains how the United Nations went from being an ally to Israel to one of its biggest threats.

How the UN was perverted into a weapon against Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 06:35 AM

So, Hamas sites it's rocket arsenals in UNRWA schools then shelters its citizens in the same schools which are now legitimate targets and the Jew haters denounce Israel which is the whole purpose of Hamas' diabolic campaign. And the more the Jew haters denounce Israel the more Hamas is encouraged to have more of its citizens killed. That is the only reason for what they are doing. They are playing The Jew haters of the world like a fiddle.

Rockets found in UNRWA school, for third time

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 06:09 AM

If Hamas had not fought the "Jewish Entity" this Ramadan, it could have lost hundreds of millions of dollars in Islamic charity "Zakat" that billionaire sheiks of the Arab gulf states give away to jihadi movements, ranging from the Taliban to al-Qaida and now, ISIS, in a manner similar to wealthy Europeans in the 1500s buying "Indulgences" to cleanse their sins.

And so, as I predicted, on July 29, a day after Ramadan and the end to the charity season, a new ceasefire proposal based on the original Egyptian draft came from Cairo.

This time it had the blessings of the top leaders of the Palestinian movement and the government of President Mahmoud Abbas.

A Hamas spokesperson has reportedly rejected the call, but that is part of its tough-guy act to smear other Arabs as weaklings.

After some posturing and machismo, the Hamas leadership will agree to a ceasefire.

As Deep Throat once said, follow the money.​

In Gaza war, follow the money

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM

And Keith's agenda has been suspect for a long time....

Meanwhile, overnight, Israeli terrorists kill 15 people sheltering in a school in a refugee camp. Contrary to Keith's lies about Israel warning people to leave, a la IRA, The UN spokesman Bob Turner said the attack came without warning and after UNRWA had informed Israel that the school was being used officially for refugees. He spoke of Israel's flagrant violation of the neutrality of the premises. A spokesman for The Whitehouse on the radio said that Israel is not respecting the inviolability of UN premises.

Sounds like another war crime to me. Keith asks why we concentrate on Israel and nowhere else. Well at this time, they are the murdering terrorists and this thread is about "small hope" for the area.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:00 AM

Steve: your standard of argument on this thread not up to usual quality. Mainly merely assertive rather than rationally postulated.

Keith: Yes. There is very much to denounce in the dire disappointing land that Israel has turned out, against all our early hopes, to be. But that does not prevent the motivations of a whole lot of people who incessantly denounce it, & it alone, among all the nations of the world, must clearly be exceedingly suspect.

Not that Jim will believe I mean it. He seems to think that, becoz I look for justice in posts like this one, I am only ½·❤-ed in my denunciations & go on loving the place after all. I can never convince him otherwise. If I stood on a box at Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park, & yelled full volume, "Israel is shit; Israelis are all cunts" 500 times, he still wouldn't be convinced, & would still go on calling it "lip-service". Just one of that multitude of things on which the Carroll-mind-made-up is entirely impenetrable, so I've just given up on trying to convince him.

Are you listening, Jim?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM

Anti-Semitism does exist.
The anti-Semites will also be anti-Israel, so the anti-Israel movement must include anti-Semites.

I am suspicious of those who always and only criticise Israel, while rarely expressing an opinion about the shortcomings of other nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:14 PM

And that demonstrates what, minnow? Eighty percent of people believe in God, you know, and every one of them is almost certainly wrong. The US elected Dubya twice (allegedly), and tell me how right that was.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:08 PM

Over 90 percent of Jewish Israelis believe Operation Protective Edge is justified, with less than 4% saying they think Israeli has used excessive firepower against targets in the Gaza Stip, according to a poll released Tuesday by the Israel Democracy Institute (IDI).

Read more: Over 90% of Jewish Israelis say Gaza op justified | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/over-90-of-jewish-israelis-say-gaza-op-justified/#ixzz38uSkkJZX
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:02 PM

Boo has a tenuous grasp on reality for some time - apparently he has at this point lost even that and descended into the depths of serious psychosis.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:00 PM

I have heard much more hate directed at Israel

You rather mean you have heard people objecting to actions of the Israeli government, don't you?

Or have you gone over to the lunatic fringe that assumes any criticism of the actions of the government of Israel equates with a hatred of Jews and an anti-Semitic bent?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 08:39 PM

The calls for the dismantling of Israel and shouts to kill Jews on the streets of London, Paris, Berlin, and Frankfurt, to name some of the major European cities where they've occurred, are indicative of a lethal anti-Semitic mass movement. What unifies many European elites, large numbers of Muslims, motley crews of leftists and neo-Nazis is a loathing of the Jewishness of Israel.

You really are barking mad, aren't you, minnow. Are you sure you're not Bibi's uncle? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 08:09 PM

iron dome like jock strap

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 07:44 PM

The calls for the dismantling of Israel and shouts to kill Jews on the streets of London, Paris, Berlin, and Frankfurt, to name some of the major European cities where they've occurred, are indicative of a lethal anti-Semitic mass movement. What unifies many European elites, large numbers of Muslims, motley crews of leftists and neo-Nazis is a loathing of the Jewishness of Israel.

Why Anti-Zionism Is Modern Anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM

Interesting. I've quoted that song (by a couple of Jews, BTW) more than once on Mudcat. I have been listening to the BBC over the past week and I have heard much more hate directed at Israel than at Palestinians. And in this forum, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM

Hey Bullshot:

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

Like hating them durn Palestinians, you mean - right?

And also anyone who might dare to criticize the actions of the Gov't of Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:17 PM

Oh dear, another bout of serial postarrhoea from Bullshot.

Apparently paregoric is no longer effective. May be Amoebic Postarrhoea- more tenacious & difficult to cure.

Perhaps he should seek medical help........

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM

The real reason for the conflict: WATCH

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM

Throughout the world, throughout history, the #1 enemy of the leftist has always been reality. From one moment to the next, he twists and tweaks his entire worldview to avoid facing what's right in front of him. He lives in an ever-shifting bubble of protective, self-imposed fantasy.

Which is fine until the bad guys, the ones he calls good guys, drop bombs on him.

Several thousand left-wing activists gathered in Tel Aviv's Rabin Square on Saturday evening, calling for an end to bloodshed in the Gaza Strip and a return to negotiations with the Palestinians.

Slogans chanted by the protesters included "Stop the war," "Bring the soldiers back home" and "Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies," Channel 2 reported…

The demonstrations were cut short when Hamas unilaterally ended a humanitarian truce with Israel and resumed rocket-fire from Gaza.

D'oh!

If you think this will change their minds, you've never tried to talk to a leftist. Maybe a handful of them will realize the absurdity of it, but the rest will just incorporate this into their delusional narrative. "Well, Israel forced Hamas to do it," "This is all because of [fill in the blank with some non sequitur]," "I am a good person," etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

Well, we know that Musket is very well "educated".


You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:01 PM

"Europe saw some of the ugliest eruptions of blatant anti-Semitism since the 1940s. Critics of Israel often claim that Israel unfairly hides from critics by charging anti-Semitism, but cries of "death to the Jews," "slit the Jews throats," or "Jews to the gas chambers" along with the smashing and torching of Jewish-owned shops and attacks on synagogues, have pulled back the cover, revealing anti-Jewish sentiment that still runs deep, and in most cases remains unspoken in polite circles. We will find out how seriously European leaders address the matter now that we have found what lay hidden behind the curtain of civil discourse."

http://us.cnn.com/2014/07/29/opinion/ghitis-israel-palestine/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:18 PM

Hamas is drowning under the blood it has on its hands.


But the three stooges, GregF, Musket, and Jimmy, keep repeating the Hamas lines and accepting what has been shown to be false.

They support the killing of Palestinian civilians by the 20-30% of those anti-personnel rockets that land in Gaza. Then they accept the Hamas lies that it was Israeli shells - AND REPEAT THOSE LIES in support of Hamas war criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:12 PM

Yeah yeah, everybody has a bias.

Except you lot?

No you dont have a bias as it happens. In order to have a bias you heed to know how to interpret and then ensure distorted accounts match your prejudice.

That takes a degree of intelligence that I fail to notice on these threads.

Cutting and pasting from subjective sources and then calling anyone who sees through them as biased or, remarkably, jew hater, is not debating, it is giving oxygen to bigotry.

Meanwhile, back in reality. The death toll rises. Israel is drowning under the blood it has on its hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM

No Jews to blame = Greggie doesn't care at all.

The more dead Arabs, the happier Greggie and his fellow stooges are. As long as they can blame Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM

Or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM

El-ARISH, Egypt (AP) — Militants in Egypt's northern Sinai fired mortar rounds late Sunday at a military post in the provincial capital of el-Arish, killing a soldier as well as seven civilians, including two children, in a nearby residential complex, security and hospital officials said.

A senior security official said the attack late Sunday hit the military post, killing one soldier. The military post is located near a compound of residential buildings in the al-Salam district. The main security headquarters and the local government offices are also located in the same area.

The official , who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media, said a supermarket, pharmacy and a residential building also were hit by mortar fire.

Samy Anwar, the head of el-Arish hospital, said seven civilians were killed in the attack, including a 10-year old girl and a 12-year old boy. He said 24 others were wounded, including an 11-year-old girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:26 AM

Also do let us know, Bullshot, when you return to the subject of this particular thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

Cairo (AFP) - At least three civilians were killed and 22 people were injured late Sunday when a rocket slammed into the restive Sinai Peninsula, Egyptian medical sources said.

Witnesses told AFP the rocket fell outside a shop in the south of El-Arish, capital of north Sinai.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM

Only a total idiot would ignore that, and NOT try to get information from many sources AND LOOK AT IT WITH REGARDS TO IT'S BIAS.

Do let us know, Bullshot, when you begin to employ that dictum regarding Israel and its apologists in the media & elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

CAIRO (Reuters) - Four children were killed and five other people were injured when a rocket landed near their homes in Rafah, an Egyptian town in Sinai near the border with Gaza, security officials said on Saturday.

Three security sources said the rocket was likely fired by Islamist militants operating in the Sinai peninsula, which borders Israel and the Palestinian Gaza Strip.

The state news agency MENA said security officials were still investigating where the rocket had come from.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:14 AM

Cairo (AFP) - Four children were killed on Saturday in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula when a mortar round hit their home, in an apparent attack by militants targeting soldiers, security officials said.

The attack took place in the northern Sinai town of El-Joura, believed to be a bastion of Islamist militants who have killed scores of police and soldiers over the past year.

Four people were wounded in the blast, the officials said, adding that the children were all under 15 years old.

Soldiers and police had been combing the area a day after militants shot dead two senior army and police officers as they were driving home.

The military said on Saturday its forces had killed 12 militants the day before in several operations.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM

" A nine-year-old girl was killed when a rocket hit the ground outside a house in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, in an apparent attack targeting soldiers, security officials said."


But no Israelis, so the "weeping stooges" don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:08 AM

" Sad, twisted bigoted soul."


What a factual, evidence provided claim- NOT.

The BBC has a bias- Hamas has a bias, Israeli government spokesmen have a bias.



Only a total idiot would ignore that, and NOT try to get information from many sources AND LOOK AT IT WITH REGARDS TO IT'S BIAS.

That means GregF, Musket , and Jimmy boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

anti-Israeli reporting

Well, T-Bird, I see you've joined the ranks of the idiots who confuse (on purpose?) "anti-Israel" with "anti-Semitic".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:59 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — 9:35 am, Tuesday, July 29, 2014

A health official said at least 100 Palestinians were killed in Israeli airstrikes and tank shelling Tuesday, as Israel escalated its military campaign. The official, Ashraf al-Kidra, said the day's death toll was expected to rise.

Tuesday's strikes came after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Monday warned of a "prolonged" campaign against Hamas. It was not clear if this meant Israel has decided to go beyond the initial objectives of decimating Hamas' ability to fire rockets and demolishing the group's military tunnels under the Gaza-Israel border.

In Israel, government spokesman Mark Regev declined comment.

Gaza's power plant also was forced to shut down Tuesday after two tank shells hit one of three fuel tanks, said Jamal Dardasawi, a spokesman for Gaza's electricity distribution company. He said the damage would take months to repair.

Even before the shutdown, Gaza residents only had electricity for about three hours a day because fighting had damaged power lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:05 AM

Wriggling Musket, you're wriggling.

Balen Report, which the BBC commissioned was kept secret - that would not have been the case if it had shown the BBC to be unbiased as you claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

If the BBC do a story about rapists and shows them in a bad light, wannabe rapists might accuse the BBC of bias.

Same with right wing fascists. As Corporal Jones would say, the fuzzy wuzzys dont like it up 'em.

Braidedbeardedbruce meanwhile sits muttering the bullshit he feels gives him credibility. Sad, twisted bigoted soul. It must hurt when the nasty civilised world calls his heros terrorists. Another 60 innocent victims since my last post here.

All legal and above board, of course... I doubt The Hague court will agree when the perpetrators are brought to book for attempted genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

No Israelis here- better not mention it...


Cairo (AFP) - A nine-year-old girl was killed when a rocket hit the ground outside a house in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, in an apparent attack targeting soldiers, security officials said.

The rocket was apparently targeting a security patrol that was passing through the area, security officials said.

Soldiers and police have been combing the area and the military says it has killed dozens of militants in north Sinai in several operations last week.

On Monday, seven militants were killed in north Sinai, including three who were shot dead by security forces, the army said.

It did not say how the other four militants were killed but said they were killed when they had gone to attack a resident in the border town of Rafah.

Five other militants were wounded in the Rafah incident.

Militant attacks have surged since the military overthrew Islamist president Mohamed Morsi and cracked down on his supporters from July 2013.

At least 1,400 people have been killed in the crackdown, mostly Islamist supporters of Morsi.

The militant attacks usually target security forces, but they have also led to civilian casualties.

Four children were killed on Saturday in the northern Sinai town of El-Joura, believed to be a bastion of militants who have killed scores of police and soldiers over the past year.

At least seven civilians and a soldier were also killed in a rocket attack earlier this month in the north Sinai capital El-Arish, when one rocket misfired and hit a crowded market place.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 07:49 AM

"Ad hominem attacks mean you're trying to distract by appealing to unrelated arguments ...
If the only card you have to play is name calling, your argument is bankrupt. Check and mate."


So GregF, Musket, and Jimmy boy stand convicted by their own posts.





Or is this ANOTHER case where it should only be applied to Jews???

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 07:41 AM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/10235967/BBC-is-biased-toward-the-left-study-finds.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 07:05 AM

"The BBC is unbiased by constitution."

Awww Musket how precious - So just because its charter says so that means automatically that it is so - laughable, old son, laughable.

Does view of yours hold good for all "constitutions Musket? Or just ones selected to suit whatever viewpoint you happen to be taking at any given time?

How about this one from Hamas:

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

Well at least the actions of Hamas show us that they believe in that crap - dangerous really because in believing that they are only going to succeed in getting lots of people killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:33 AM

A number of senior BBC officials and journalist have stated that there has long been a Left Wing bias at BBC.

Also, see this.
http://biasedbbc.org/blog/category/bbc-bias/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 04:15 AM

The BBC is unbiased by constitution. That Israel is criticised is possibly due to their aggressive nature, funded by pro Israeli US lobby.

The fools on this thread say The BBC is biased , The UN is biased, The EU is biased...

Oh, why doesn't the world listen to the objective sage comments of Terribleus, braidedbeardedbruce, poo bad and me too Keith?

By the way, it was The BBC who are questioning whether it was a mis guided rocket. For all your shit, anybody can read their news website.

For the purpose of this thread, bias seems to mean "make my prejudice look awkward and uncomfortable."

Well done Israel. The world is beginning to wake up at last. Even The White House is risking political funding by Kerry and now Obama showing how sickened they are with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:59 AM

"I have not been informed of anything by you or any of your fellow apologists for terrorists. I have however listened to the words of our Prime Minister, The US President, The UN general secretary and myriad reporters on the scene, especially the unbiased BBC." - Musket

"BBC News at 10 tonight.
No credence was given to the playground bomb being a Hamas rocket.
Israel was blatantly accused.
Unequivocal bias." – Keith A of Hertford

1: Ever heard of a little thing called the "Balen Report" Musket? It was a report of the findings of an independent internal investigation carried out at the behest of the BBC related to anti-Israeli reporting by the BBC. This investigation was paid for by the British public who pay the BBC Licence Fee. The findings of the report were kept secret by the BBC and protected from threat of disclosure under any challenge via the "Freedom of Information Act". Those two points reading between the lines strongly indicate that the "Balen Report" is damning in the extreme – Don't know about you Musket, but I, having contributed towards the cost of that investigation, would like to know what it says and also what remedial actions the BBC have taken to eliminate any bias from their reporting of any news item.

2: On the incident yesterday where the 10 children were killed in that playground, did anybody commenting on this thread see the coverage broadcast by the BBC? It was filmed in a hospital showed scenes that we have seen before (Library footage most likely) but it contained two sections in which injured children were "interviewed" (I say "interviewed" because no questions were asked the child "victims" merely made statements). The one I found interesting was the one by the eight year-old boy who had been "wounded" in the back by shrapnel in that incident.

Hey Musket when you have been wandering around all those hospitals that you have rescued have you ever encountered any patients who have received any invasive injury to their backs? How mobile are they during the first 24 hours? Yet here is this eight year old, bright eyed and showing absolutely no sign or shock, pain, bruising or blood (They were at great pains to show the dressing {singular}) trotting out the lines that Hamas wanted the world to hear. At the end of the "interview" the camera panned away to show another of the supposed victims heavily bandaged on the left arm and right leg walking with an adult being led by his bandaged arm and walking normally keeping pace with the adult – possibly being led to another "western journalist" to trot out "his story". I have no doubt at all that children were killed and injured in that incident, but neither child shown could have been anywhere near it. Another little nuanced clue from the reporting of the incident, the BBC reporter referred to the "rocket" that hit the playground. Normally when reporting on strikes by the IDF they mention "missiles", "bombs", "artillery shells", "mortars" - NOT "rockets".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:45 PM

Guess Obama and Kerry have joines the ranks of your anti-Semites, eh, Boo?

US fuming over Israeli criticism of Kerry
Associated Press
By MATTHEW LEE and JULIE PACE 4 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration pushed back strongly Monday at a torrent of Israeli criticism over Secretary of State John Kerry's latest bid to secure a cease-fire with Hamas, accusing some in Israel of launching a "misinformation campaign" against the top American diplomat.

"It's simply not the way partners and allies treat each other," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.

Her comments were echoed by the White House, where National Security Adviser Susan Rice said the U.S. was "dismayed" by mischaracterizations of Kerry's efforts. Israeli media reports have cast Kerry as seeking a cease-fire that is more favorable to Hamas and being dismissive of key Israeli concerns.

The coordinated pushback in Washington came amid growing U.S. frustration with Israel as Palestinian civilian casualties mount amid a sustained Israeli air and ground war in the Gaza Strip.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:19 PM

the vile name calling that has been going on here at Mudcat

Most, if not all, of which is being done by yourself, Bullshot and FookWit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM

JERUSALEM – IDF forces are continuing to operate inside the Gaza Strip, their main objective are still the terror tunnels. A senior IDF officer was quoted yesterday saying that Israel is in possession of all of the attack tunnels that Hamas dug from Gaza to Israel. A few more days are needed in order to dispose of the remaining tunnels, he said. The IDF blew up two more tunnels in the course of the last 24 hours. "The longer we stay on the ground, the more we learn about the extent of the tunnels and the route they were built in."

IDF Chief of Staff Lieutenant General entered Gaza yesterday to appraise the IDF's achievements up-close and discuss further plans with field commanders. Aware of the mounting international pressure to end the operation immediately and unconditionally, Gantz stated: "It's going to take some time, but every minute here matters." He further pointed out that the IDF was working with full-force to destroy the leftover tunnels.

Egyptian Border Guards, in coordination with the armed forces, destroyed 13 tunnels in Sinai on Saturday evening, said Armed Forces spokesman Brigadier Mohamed Samir in a statement. Authorities also seized a pickup truck that allegedly transferred 68 packs of agricultural pesticides that had Hebrew writing on it.

The IDF's operations, together, and possibly in coordination with the Egyptians' actions, are effectively cutting Hamas off from any real possibility to replenish their rocket arsenal, which is down by 50% according to IDF figures. An Israeli woman was moderately wounded yesterday afternoon by a rocket fired from the Gaza Strip. Over the past 24 hours more than 71 rockets were fired from Gaza towards Israel. At least 50 rockets hit Israel. 9 rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defense system. The IDF struck over 40 terror targets in the Gaza Strip yesterday and 3865 terror targets in total since the beginning of the operation. 32 terror tunnels were uncovered by IDF forces since July 17th.

Since the beginning of Operation Protective Edge more than 2,500 rockets have been fired from Gaza at Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:03 PM

Greg - get help for your antisemitism.....soon!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:00 PM

I find it very telling that in light of all the vile name calling that has been going on here at Mudcat, specifically by those who are anti Israel, SRS should choose to call me out for applying a definition
as drafted by the EUMC and reaffirmed by the Ottawa Protocol on Combating Antisemitism to comments that clearly fall within the parameters of the definition. Like I said, I've got her number.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:53 PM

Boo- get help for your monomaniac fixation on anti-Semitism..

Soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:43 PM

I see that the antisemitic frenzy is not confined to the pages of Mudcat.

"These demonstrators are marching in the heart of Berlin shouting these slogans, in front of the police. Shouting 'Jews are pigs' is an incitement: Why isn't the Germany police taking the details of these people shouting in an aggressive way 'Death to the Jews'?" asked Gelbart.

Hebrew University Prof. Robert Wistrich, an expert on anti-Semitism, said, "We have entered a new, very difficult era in all of Europe." He said there is "a bit" of awareness in some governments, noting France's aggressive stance against anti-Semitism in any form, from top government officials on down, "but we see it doesn't make much of a difference — though it is important."

Wistrich noted that years of "one-sided" anti-Israel media reports have led to an image of the Jewish state that is far removed from reality. Additionally, the constellation of extremists on the political far right and far left, along with jihadist immigrants, have created a new anti-Semitic climate in Europe, he said.

There is no longer a facade of anti-Zionist expressions not being anti-Semitic, said Wistrich. "You just need to hear the rhetoric to believe. We need a much deeper discussion; we're just at the outer layer of the problem."

Read more: Talk of feared new Holocaust at Knesset meeting on European anti-Semitism | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/talk-of-feared-new-holocaust-at-knesset-meeting-on-european-anti-semitism/#ixzz38o1OxmWA

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:31 PM

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck and I'm going to call that duck out whenever I see it whether you like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:32 PM

I think this deserves to be posted here as well, for easy reference when dealing with PP, Boo, & FWK. I hope SRS doesn't object.


From: Stilly River Sage - PM
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:47 PM

Bobad people can be opposed to what Israel does as a nation, what the Israeli government does as a body, and even opposed to what individual Jewish individuals do in the name of their religion (such as kidnapping and killing children or building more settlements) without being an anti-semite.

When your case (the one you, Bobad, make against others here at mudcat) is so poor that the only answer you have in a dispute is to call the other party names, then you have no argument. Ad hominem attacks mean you're trying to distract by appealing to unrelated arguments (does calling someone "antisemite" mean they have to stop the first discussion and go on the defensive regarding their own attitudes towards Jews? No. It doesn't.)

If the only card you have to play is name calling, your argument is bankrupt. Check and mate.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:27 PM

Unless its accurate information, FarkWut. Get a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:24 PM

BBC News at 10 tonight.
No credence was given to the playground bomb being a Hamas rocket.
Israel was blatantly accused.
Unequivocal bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:23 PM

He gives me a good laugh anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:21 PM

Greggie boy was never very good at comprehension...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM

"So Boo, as far as you are concerned, the BBC is out to "eliminate Jews".

Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran etc.......you idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:07 PM

So Boo, as far as you are concerned, the BBC is out to "eliminate Jews".

Get help. Soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:29 PM

In 1144 came the first report in history of the blood libel against Jews; it came up in the case of William of Norwich (1144).[5] Julius finds that the English were endlessly imaginative in inventing anti-Semitic allegations. He says that England became the "principal promoter, and indeed in some sense the inventor of literary anti-Semitism."[6] Julius argues that blood libel is the key, because it incorporates the themes that Jews are malevolent, constantly conspiring against Christians, powerful, and merciless. Variations include stories about Jews poisoning wells, twisting minds, and buying and selling Christian souls and bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:24 PM

Persecution of England's Jews could be brutal; recorded are deadly massacres at London[10] and York[11] during the crusades in 1189 and 1190.

On November 17, 1278, all Jews of England, believed to have numbered around 3,000, were arrested on suspicion of coin clipping and counterfeiting, and all Jewish homes in England were searched. At the time, coin clipping was a widespread practice, which both Jews and Christians were involved in, and a financial crisis resulted, and according to one contemporary source, the practice reduced the currency's value to half of its face value. In 1275, coin clipping was made a capital offence, and in 1278, raids on suspected coin clippers were carried out. According to the Bury Chronicle, "All Jews in England of whatever condition, age or sex were unexpectedly seized … and sent for imprisonment to various castles throughout England. While they were thus imprisoned, the innermost recesses of their houses were ransacked." Some 680 were detained in the Tower of London. More than 300 are believed to have been executed in 1279. Those who could afford to buy a pardon and had a patron at the royal court escaped punishment.[12]

Edward I increasingly showed anti-Semitism as in 1280 he granted a right to levy a toll on the rivulet bridge at Brentford "for the passage of goods over it, with a special tax at the rate of 1d. each for Jews and Jewesses on horse, 0.5d. each on foot from which all other travellers were exempt".[13] This antipathy eventually culminated in his legislating for the expulsion of all Jews from the country in 1290. Most were only allowed to take what they could carry.[citation needed] A small number of Jews favoured by the king were permitted to sell their properties first. Almost all evidence of a Jewish presence in England would have been wiped out if it had not been for the efforts of one monk, Gregory of Huntingdon, who purchased all the Jewish texts he could to begin translating them.[5]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:16 PM

"Where will it end?"

It won't, that's why the Jews need their own country and why they must protect themselves from those who want to eliminate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:04 PM

So now the Beeb is a hotbed of anti-Semitism, Boo? Where will it end?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:01 PM

It was in the Wash Post- but I doubt if the Beeb had it…might send the wrong message.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:56 PM

IDF sets up field hospital for wounded Gazans.........you definitely didn't see this on the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:48 PM

"They might strenuously deny it, but Amnesty and HRW have systemic biases against Israel."

UNRWA can now be added to that list as they have now been clearly shown to be supporting Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:43 PM

"Donatella Rovera, an Amnesty field investigator, wrote an interesting article about the challenges of fact finding in war situations.

One of her main points is that eyewitnesses are often unreliable. For example:

In Gaza, Lebanon, Libya, Syria, and other places I interviewed civilians who described what they thought were artillery or bomb strikes being launched by far away government forces and striking near their homes – whereas in reality the loud bangs and tremors were caused by mortars or rockets being launched by opposition fighters from their positions nearby. For the untrained ear it is virtually impossible to distinguish between incoming and outgoing fire, and all the more so for those who find themselves close to the frontlines.

Another factor she mentions:

Even if they disregard it, investigators must be alert to the fact that disinformation and misinformation can contribute to shaping the perception of events, the narrative surrounding the events, and the behaviour of people who take it in good faith and internalize it, including victims, witnesses, and others potential sources.

Here Rovera is referring to lies that spread quickly and then become widely believed – including by "unbiased" NGOs – before anyone has a chance to investigate. How many times have we seen that?
She gives a specific example from Gaza:

Fear can lead victims and witnesses to withhold evidence or give deliberately erroneous accounts of incidents. In Gaza, I received partial or inaccurate information by relatives of civilians accidentally killed in accidental explosions or by rockets launched by Palestinian armed groups towards Israel that had malfunctioned and of civilians killed by Israeli strikes on nearby Palestinian armed groups' positions. When confronted with other evidence obtained separately, some said they feared reprisals by the armed groups.

Meaning that "eyewitnesses" will often claim that there was no terrorist activity in the area of an airstrike and Israel wantonly and indiscriminately killed people for no reason.

This gets wholly believed and parroted by the UN and other NGOs. The Goldstone Report has many such examples.

Unfortunately, in many cases the NGOs themselves are part of the problem. Rovera admits, a little elliptically:

Conflict situations create highly politicized and polarized environments, which may affect even individuals and organizations with a proven track record of credible and objective work. Players and interested parties go to extraordinary lengths to manipulate or manufacture "evidence" for both internal and external consumption.

It is a shame that Rovera didn't include Amnesty International itself as being guilty of this, and she ascribes the lack of objectivity almost only to fake evidence that is created by one side rather than to the ideological desire to find war crimes when none exist.

They might strenuously deny it, but Amnesty and HRW have systemic biases against Israel. This article, while a step in the right direction, only scratches the surface of how NGOs themselves contribute to the culture of lies in order to issue their reports and maintain their funding without doing basic fact checks.

And while Rovera notes that some "eyewitnesses" act out of fear, she doesn't go far enough. At least in the territories, the lies about Israel are repeated so often that the witnesses will often tell Western reporters and researchers what they expect to hear rather than what happened. This isn't necessarily out of fear; it is part of their culture to ensure that Israel is always blamed no matter what. It saturates their media. I cannot count how many times "eyewitness" accounts were found to be complete fiction, and fear didn't enter into the equation. However, many of the "witnesses" happen to work for the largest employer in the West Bank – the PA – which lies constantly.

Not to mention that many anti-Israel activists that will knowingly repeat the most outrageous lies to further their own agenda.

Lets hope that this article can at least open up the discussion of how inaccurate much of the reporting and research is about Israel, even from NGOs that pretend to be objective."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

"hatred towards the Palestinian people."


** I ** have no hatred towards the Palestinian people. I think that Palestinians in general should be treated as well if not better than the Jewish Arabs driven out of their homes in 1948.

I DO hate Hamas, and those groups that have declared they want to kill Jews and destroy Israel.

You have a problem with that???

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM

The sensational story was too good to pass up. Israel allegedly shelled a United Nation school being used as a refugee shelter, massacring at least sixteen people who were trying to evacuate. Even worse, the media reported that Israel had the exact coordinates of the school, knew that civilians were sheltering there, and there was no combat nearby.

In other words, the media indicted the IDF for a war crime. Even though there were no credible sources, the media assumed that information they were given was true.

What Really Happened at that Gazan UN School?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:19 PM

"....especially the unbiased BBC."

Ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha...............ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM

Braidedbeardedbruce has as much evidence that I support Hamas as I have about his sexual perversions.

In fact less. I have posted views that certainly do not support the aims of Hamas any more than the aims of the Israeli militants.

I have not been informed of anything by you or any of your fellow apologists for terrorists. I have however listened to the words of our Prime Minister, The US President, The UN general secretary and myriad reporters on the scene, especially the unbiased BBC.

Not one seems to concur with your propaganda and hatred towards the Palestinian people.

If you want me to change my stance, I'd have to have my conscience surgically removed, learn how to lie and lower my standing in society. Err.. no fucking thanks.

It's alright, nobody is listening to your hate. or at least, nobody important.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM

Several Western journalists currently working in Gaza have been harassed and threatened by Hamas for documenting cases of the terrorist group's involvement of civilians in warfare against Israel, Israeli officials said, expressing outrage that some in the international media apparently allow themselves to be intimidated and do not report on such incidents.

The Times of Israel confirmed several incidents in which journalists were questioned and threatened. These included cases involving photographers who had taken pictures of Hamas operatives in compromising circumstances — gunmen preparing to shoot rockets from within civilian structures, and/or fighting in civilian clothing — and who were then approached by Hamas men, bullied and had their equipment taken away. Another case involving a French reporter was initially reported by the journalist involved, but the account was subsequently removed from the Internet.

Read more: Hamas threatening journalists in Gaza who expose abuse of civilians | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-threatening-journalists-in-gaza-who-expose-abuse-of-civilians/#ixzz38mfPt1Nh

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

"Call me a Hamas stooge once more I and I start posting details of your interest in small boys."


1. I stop calling you what you are when you change your posts and actions.

2. I warned you not to judge the rest of us by YOUR sexual tastes.

3. I note you continue to attack those posting rather than bring up FACTS to support your posts. This is a clear indication you have nothing of value to contribute to the thread.


As long as you repeat Hamas propaganda AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN INFORMED that there is some (major) doubt as to it's veracity you ARE an HAMAS STOOGE.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM

Hamas killed over a thousand Palestinians?

Has anyone been told of this??

It would make front page news, perhaps bumping from the prime slot the news of how many Palestinians Israeli militants have killed since they started their aggression. (coincidentally, just over a thousand. Each bullet had "A gift from The USA "written on it for that matter.)

Call me a Hamas stooge once more I and I start posting details of your interest in small boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:39 PM

"Over the weekend, Kerry did manage to facilitate something in the Middle East: unparalleled unanimity.

Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan were all in agreement that Kerry's efforts were undermining the attempt to bring about a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas as quickly as possible. Moreover, Kerry's framework and the ideas he presented led to an extraordinary phone call taking place between a senior Palestinian Authority official and an Israeli counterpart, during which the two mocked the senior diplomat's naivete and his failure to understand the regional reality."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

" Camera crews were prevented from filming the area of impact at Shifa.

Gaza's police operations room, Civil Defense and Sahabani said the deaths and injuries were caused by Israeli airstrikes."

BUT YOU BETTER NOT TAKE ANY PICTURES!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:23 PM

An honest person would say that we do not KNOW which side is responsible, but that looking at the shrapnel recovered from the wounded would determine that.

Ee cannot expect our three Hamas "stooges" (Musket, Jimmy, and GreggieF) to ever look at facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:15 PM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — A Gaza park was attacked Monday, killing at least 10 Palestinians, including children, a Palestinian health official said. Israelis and the Palestinians traded blame for the strike.

Children were playing on a swing when the strike hit the park in the Shati refugee camp on the edge of Gaza City, said Ayman Sahabani, head of the emergency room at nearby Shifa Hospital.

He gave the death toll and said 46 people also were wounded.

The strike on the park occurred a few minutes after the hospital's outpatient clinic was hit, leaving several people wounded. Camera crews were prevented from filming the area of impact at Shifa.

Gaza's police operations room, Civil Defense and Sahabani said the deaths and injuries were caused by Israeli airstrikes.

Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, an Israeli army spokesman, denied Israel was involved. "This incident was carried out by Gaza terrorists whose rockets fell short and hit the Shifa Hospital and the Beach (Shati) camp," he said.

The strikes occurred on a day of heavy fighting after a temporary humanitarian cease-fire as international efforts intensified to end the three-week war between Israel and Hamas militants.

Israeli jets struck several sites in Gaza and rockets continued to fall on Israel, the Israeli military said, disrupting a relative lull in the Gaza war at the start of a major Muslim holiday.

The United Nations on Monday called for an "immediate" cease-fire in the fighting that has already killed over 1,040 Palestinians, 43 Israeli soldiers and three civilians on the Israeli side. On Sunday, President Barak Obama telephoned Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to push for an immediate end to the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:55 AM

" will only encourage Hamas criminality, with Israeli and Palestinian civilians themselves as the tragic victims.


But of course this is what Musket, Jimmy, and Greggie WANT- More civilians killed so they can blame Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:45 AM

Greggie boy

Proof you cannot read:

I posted:
"Jimmy has already said that we cannot trust ANY statement by EITHER side,"


YOU said:
"we cannot trust ANY statement by EITHER side

Now YOU don't trust statements made by the unerring and ineffible Israli Government, Bullshot? "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:44 AM

None of this is intended to suggest that Israel is somehow above the law or should not be held responsible for any violations of human rights or international humanitarian norms. The problem is that Israel is systematically denied equality before the law in the international arena. Israel must respect human rights, but the rights of Israel deserve equal respect. Simply put, human rights standards should be applied to Israel, but must be equally applied to all others, without the exculpatory immunity that major human rights violators – such as Hamas – currently enjoy.

Unacceptably, the recent UN resolution ignores the fundamental distinction between a terrorist organization – indeed a terrorist government, like Hamas – committed to maximizing civilian casualties, both Israeli and Palestinian, and a democratic government that seeks to minimize Palestinian casualties while taking necessary measures to defend its own citizens in accordance with international law.

Regrettably, this prejudicial and pernicious UN decision – let alone the prospective one-sided commission of inquiry – will only encourage Hamas criminality, with Israeli and Palestinian civilians themselves as the tragic victims.

Irwin Cotler is a Member of the Canadian Parliament, and the former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. He is emeritus professor of law at McGill University in Montreal, has written extensively on war crimes law, and initiated the first prosecution under Canada's War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity Act.

The UN, Hamas, and Alice in Wonderland

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

"The army shot artillery shells at Hamas targets, and one of the shells may have gone off course.
"


Yes, YOU should learn, if it it is not too late.


HAMAS is certain that ALL casualties are caused by Israeli shells, and NEVER by rockets that are seen to hit Gaza.

ISRAEL admits that SOME firing in combat may hit unintended targets.

AND YOU BELIEVE and pass on the HAMAS PROPAGANDA.


You are really something. Not a good something, but something.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

we cannot trust ANY statement by EITHER side

Now YOU don't trust statements made by the unerring and ineffible Israli Government, Bullshot?

Have you lost your faith?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:36 AM

WAIT until the UN VERIFIES it…

Since when do you hold a brief for the UN, Bullshot? You've stated that they're just a bunch of slavering Anti-Semites and that their numerous resolutions against various Israeli atrocities are a smokescreen.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:34 AM

but an errant IDF artillery shell also may have hit the facility. Ya'ari also reported that one IDF shell struck the school

Learn to read, Bullshot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:33 AM

Or is this another "Israeli strike" by an Hamas anti-personnel rocket?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:32 AM

Greggie boy,

Jimmy has already said that we cannot trust ANY statement by EITHER side, so you have not presented any verifiable facts. WAIT until the UN VERIFIES it…

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

10 killed in strike on park
Associated Press 14 minutes ago

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — A Palestinian health official says at least 10 people were killed and 46 wounded in an Israeli strike on a park in the Gaza Strip.

Ayman Sahabani, the head of the emergency room at a nearby hospital, which also was hit, gave the casualty toll in Monday's strike.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM

NOW I see what Musket is all about. He has aspirations of great fame!


Keep pushing the Hamas line, Musket old fellow.



"United Kingdom to which William Joyce broadcast regularly, gaining the nickname 'Lord Haw-Haw' in the process. Joyce first appeared on German radio on 6 September 1939 reading the news in English but soon became noted for his often mischievous propaganda broadcasts.[103] Joyce was executed in 1946 for treason.

Broadcasts were also made to the United States, notably through Robert Henry Best and 'Axis Sally' Mildred Gillars. Best, a freelance journalist based in Vienna, was initially arrested following the German declaration of war on the US but before long he became a feature on propaganda radio, attacking the influence of the Jews in the US and the leadership of Franklin Delano Roosevelt,[105] who succeeded Winston Churchill in Nazi propaganda as "World-Enemy Number One".[106] Best would later be sentenced to life imprisonment for treason. "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:12 AM

News flash, Greggie boy

That school was hit by an HAMAS rocket, one of the 20-30% ( 400- 600 at least) that misfire and hit Gaza.

NOW we see where all the comments about ANTI-PERSONNEL warheads are coming from.


But I suppose you just can't let go of a good lie.





"
"UNRWA has admitted that a Hamas misfired rocket hit a U.N.-run school in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza, according to Channel 2′s Ehud Ya'ari, but an errant IDF artillery shell also may have hit the facility, where Gaza sources claim an estimated 17 children and United Nations personnel were killed and 200 others were wounded Thursday afternoon.

Other sources have said the death toll is closer to 10.

Ya'ari also reported that one IDF shell struck the school, but this has not been verified.

The IDF spokesman remarked, and UNRWA confirmed, that misfired Hamas rockets fell and exploded in the area of the Beit Hanoun school. The IDF also reported there was significant combat in that area, where Hamas has used schools and hospitals as terror bases. The army shot artillery shells at Hamas targets, and one of the shells may have gone off course.

However, if even one of the explosions was a result of Hamas rockets, which seems to be the case, foreign media will have to throw up their hands in surrender to their constant attempt to show Israel as a mass murderer of innocent children.

Israel was immediately blamed for supposedly bombing the school, and UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness jumped all over the IDF for the tragedy.

Israel has made it clear that Hamas is responsible for any and all deaths."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM

The 20-day war has killed more than 1,030 Palestinians, mainly civilians. Israel has lost two civilians. More than 160,000 displaced Palestinians have sought shelter at dozens of U.N. schools, an eight-fold increase since the start of Israel's ground operation more than a week ago, the U.N. said.

Three Israeli tank shells hit the school in the town of Beit Hanoun on Thursday, killing 16 people and wounding scores. The school served as a shelter for Palestinians displaced by the Gaza fighting.

Israeli airstrikes have destroyed hundreds of homes, including close to 500 in direct hits. Entire Gaza neighborhoods near the border have been reduced to rubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:47 AM

To paraprase GregF,

For you, I guess those school kids and innocent civilians don't count becuse they're not killed by Jews, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:44 AM

The Institute for Palestine Studies published a detailed report on Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon in the summer of 2012. It reported that tunnel construction in Gaza has resulted in a large number of child deaths.

    "At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials"



But any Palestinians that were killed by HAMAS are not worth mentioning to you and Jimmy.

You do not even consider them significant enough to acknowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:41 AM

Not even including the children HAMAS killed in order to make those tunnels TO PROTECT HAMAS rockets and assault squads.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

No, Musket.

HAMAS has murdered over a thousand Palestinians, and almost 50 Israelis.


Look at the numbers- Over 2000 Hamas rockets, 20-30% that fall in Gaza.

400 to 600 HAMAS antipersonnel rockets hitting Gaza, randomly.

No shelters, since HAMAS used the building materials and concrete to make all those tunnels.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM

Just put of interest Goofus, nobody from The UK on these threads have shown any support for the aims of Hamas.

Terribleus and his cronies have to say that to allow them to sleep at night as they cheer on Israeli terrorism and militant carnage.

In the meantime, Israel have now murdered over 1,000 Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM

Cairo (AFP) - Egypt's army said Sunday it has destroyed 13 more tunnels connecting the Sinai Peninsula to the Gaza Strip, taking to 1,639 the overall number it has laid waste to.

The Palestinian militant group Hamas, which is the main power in Gaza, reportedly uses the tunnels to smuggle arms, food and money into the blockaded coastal enclave.

Israel has been waging a military offensive on Gaza since July 8 to halt rocket fire, and it launched a ground assault on July 17 aimed at destroying the network of tunnels.

It accuses Hamas of using the tunnels to attacks on Israel.

Ties between Hamas and Cairo have deteriorated since the Egyptian army deposed Morsi on July 3, 2013. Hamas is an affiliate of Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood.

Cairo also accuses of Hamas of being involved in militant attacks inside Egypt, which have multiplied since Morsi was toppled.

Militant groups say their attacks are in retaliation for a police crackdown on Morsi's supporters. The crackdown has seen more than 1,400 people killed in street clashes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:21 AM

http://www.businessinsider.com/idf-troops-show-what-its-like-inside-gaza-homes-rigged-with-bombs-2014-7



and

http://news.yahoo.com/parsing-obamas-phone-call-netanyahu-222200115.html

"In a phone call between the two men on Sunday, President Obama stressed several points, which could be divined in slightly contradictory lights (emphasis mine):

The President underscored the United States' strong condemnation of Hamas' rocket and tunnel attacks against Israel and reaffirmed Israel's right to defend itself. The President also reiterated the United States' serious and growing concern about the rising number of Palestinian civilian deaths and the loss of Israeli lives, as well as the worsening humanitarian situation in Gaza.
Building on Secretary Kerry's efforts, the President made clear the strategic imperative of instituting an immediate, unconditional humanitarian ceasefire that ends hostilities now and leads to a permanent cessation of hostilities based on the November 2012 ceasefire agreement. The President reaffirmed the United States' support for Egypt's initiative, as well as regional and international coordination to end hostilities.
And then the kicker: "The President stressed the U.S. view that, ultimately, any lasting solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict must ensure the disarmament of terrorist groups and the demilitarization of Gaza.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

"No country would accept rockets from above and tunnels from below."

Ban Ki-moon today.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

"UNRWA has admitted that a Hamas misfired rocket hit a U.N.-run school in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza, according to Channel 2′s Ehud Ya'ari, but an errant IDF artillery shell also may have hit the facility, where Gaza sources claim an estimated 17 children and United Nations personnel were killed and 200 others were wounded Thursday afternoon.

Other sources have said the death toll is closer to 10.

Ya'ari also reported that one IDF shell struck the school, but this has not been verified.

The IDF spokesman remarked, and UNRWA confirmed, that misfired Hamas rockets fell and exploded in the area of the Beit Hanoun school. The IDF also reported there was significant combat in that area, where Hamas has used schools and hospitals as terror bases. The army shot artillery shells at Hamas targets, and one of the shells may have gone off course.

However, if even one of the explosions was a result of Hamas rockets, which seems to be the case, foreign media will have to throw up their hands in surrender to their constant attempt to show Israel as a mass murderer of innocent children.

Israel was immediately blamed for supposedly bombing the school, and UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness jumped all over the IDF for the tragedy.

Israel has made it clear that Hamas is responsible for any and all deaths.

Foreign news agencies already have blamed Israel and have published gory pictures of the aftermath of the attacks, which came a day after U.N. Secretary-General Ban-Ki moon expressed "alarm" that 20 rockets were found for the second time in a UNRWA school but that they had "gone missing."

… Approximately 20-30 percent of Hamas rockets have landed or exploded inside Gaza, and Channel 10 television said that UNRWA, after having spewed out anger at the IDF, has confirmed that Hamas was the source of the attacks.
UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness, who has been strangely subdued about not knowing that rockets were hidden in at least two UNRWA schools – and that number is certainly much larger – turned up the volume with his usual anti-Israel condemnation over the bombing of the school.
Gunness told Israel Radio that UNRWA tried to coordinate with the IDF during the day to leave a window open for civilians to leave the school, but that request "never was granted." He tweeted, "Precise co-ordinates of the UNRWA shelter in Beit Hanoun had been formally given to the Israeli army."
He has not had too much to say about the rockets that "have gone missing."
His boss U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who was not so worried that the first batch of rockets found in a UNRWA school last week was turned over to Hamas, now is furious that no one knows who picked up the second batch. A wild guess might be, possibly, maybe, that they went back to their rightful owners, Hamas.
"Those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children," Ban stated.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM

But never mind the nuanced discussion or grey areas. Pro-Palestinian rallies are now rampant with anti-Semitism that doesn't even bother pretend to be something else.

The bigger problem is that pro-Palestinians who are not participating in this shameful hatred are absolutely silent. They feel no need to condemn the perpetrators, let alone eject them from their movement.

Yet the reputations of some major Canadian institutions and individuals depend on doing the right thing here. Trade unions like CUPE Ontario and the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, liberal Christians including the United Church of Canada, peace groups and university student unions have endorsed the pro-Palestinian narrative, an ideology that is now unambiguously linked with Jew-hatred.

Legitimate organizations should have known they were playing with fire from the start. The anti-Israel movement has always attracted the most extreme fringe elements. It was probably inevitable that those who are motivated by bias toward Jews would soil the movement when push came to shove. But now that the moment has come, what will the movement's legitimate allies in labour, churches and activist circles do about it?

============================================================================================================================================

Now that pro-Palestinian activists are chanting "death to the Jews" and "Hitler should have finished the job," that is no longer really a debate. Jew-hatred is at least part of the fuel that has blown this comparatively minor regional conflict into the biggest obsession in geopolitics.

Squawking about Israel drowns out every other cause on the planet, clogs the United Nations with ceaseless anti-Israel motions and eclipses global awareness of conflicts that have claimed millions more victims.

The pro-Palestinian movement has a problem it needs to acknowledge and address. And so now do the erstwhile legitimate organizations that have jumped on its bandwagon.

Until they confront the Jew-hatred in their own house, they have no credibility speaking out on injustice elsewhere.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Opinion+Anti+Semitism+infiltrating+protests/10067321/story.html?__federated=1#ixzz38lkdAmH1

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:14 AM

"Motre like fucked, Boo."

I agree Greg, Hamas are fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:06 AM

The Meir Amit Intelligence and Information Center found, on July 23, that 775 people had been killed in Gaza, of whom 229 were militants or terrorists (135 Hamas, 60 Islamic Jihad, 34 from other terror organizations); 267 were civilians; and 279 could not yet be classified.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:49 AM

"In fact," he wrote, "more than two-thirds of the fatalities are males aged 18 to 60, despite the fact that they represent around 20% of Gaza's population."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:08 AM

"someone keeps posting Hamas slanted articles from an Irish paper(shame on them)"

The Irish Times has a reputation for being antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:04 AM

Many of the Palestinian figures subsequently quoted, by the UN and other international organizations, "are not worth the paper they're written on," Reuven Erlich, the director of the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, told The Times of Israel. "They're based mostly on Palestinian sources in Gaza, who have a vested interest in showing that we're killing many civilians."

His center, he said, thoroughly researches the casualties. In order to ascertain an accurate identity of the dead, the center's staff researches the person's background on Palestinian websites and searches for information about their funerals and for other hints that could shed light on the person's true occupation.

The authorities in Gaza generally count every young man who did not wear a uniform as a civilian — even if he was involved in terrorist activity and was therefore considered by the IDF a legitimate target, military sources said.

| The Times of Israel When numbers in Gaza masquerade as fact

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:00 AM

I think Teribus hit on something, smack in the middle. I've noticed that the biggest Hamas sympathizers on here, are from the U.K., and someone keeps posting Hamas slanted articles from an Irish paper(shame on them)..and in the U.K. you all tend to listen to the BBC, and therefore the bias that a lot of you may have, is because you're believing your media at face value...and NOT considering an objective narrative. You may also notice, that in the U.K., that the BBC influences parallel with Obama's dealings. It is widely seen, the U.S., that Obama's Administration is the most hostile to Israel, of any Administration since 1947, when the U.N. gave land to Israel..(I suspect you all know the story.)

I suggest that those who normally watch the BBC, try watching another source, and just listen. Chances are you'll be pissed off....but that will only be because your used to the story, with the biased delivery of it, and some of which, have assimilated their 'upside down', view of it all, but are being 'talked out' of their 'Common Sense'.

That's why when I first came one here, I pointed out about teaching people HOW to think... as opposed to WHAT to think!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:08 AM

"War crimes my arse - the Palestinians wouldn't register on the Richter scale next to your boyos" - Christmas

Ehmmm not from the want of trying their utmost Christmas old chap.

Gaza indeed would have been a far, far better place had the Palestinians who lived there in 2005 stuck to their side of the bargain and stopped attacks on Israeli civilians. Had they done so then all border crossings would have remained open along with work opportunities inside Israel.

They bleat about the lack of this and the lack of that due to Israeli and Egyptian blockades restricting "humanitarian" aid and essential supplies, yet for some rather weird reason they seem to have no problem at all "importing" Grad Rockets supplied by Iran to fire into Israel to targets at ever increasing ranges - strange that isn't it Christmas?

The BBC's biased reporting of the current conflict is typical as they challenge every single thing stated by any Israeli spokesperson while they pander to and simper at the unadulterated propaganda spouted by Hamas (Mind you that might have a great deal to do with the fact that if the questioning of Hamas spokespersons got a bit pointed the person asking those questions might find themselves being given a private flying lesson from the roof of a nearby building).

The question I would ask any Hamas spokesperson would be:

"Please draw for me what you would consider to be the acceptable borders of the States of Palestine and Israel in this "Two State Solution" that you purport to be fighting for."

It would be a request that would receive no answer from that particular quarter as they deny Israel the right of existence - period. And that Christmas is why there will never be any meaningful talks or peace settlement for as long as that Hamas attitude prevails.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 10:15 PM

Oh well...2000!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:45 PM

one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM

Motre like fucked, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 08:52 PM

"what about the 800 and counting civilian oops-es perpetrated by Israel Hamas?"

FIXED!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:08 PM

Hey, Boo - what about the 800 and counting civilian oops-es perpetrated by Israel? For you, I guess those school kids and innocent civilians don't count becuse they're not Jewish, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:17 PM

MAJOR NEWS OUT OF ISRAEL: It was an errant Hamas rocket that hit the UN school, ooooops

UNRWA has admitted that a Hamas misfired rocket hit a U.N.-run school in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza, according to Channel 2′s Ehud Ya'ari, but an errant IDF artillery shell also may have hit the facility, where Gaza sources claim an estimated 17 children and United Nations personnel were killed and 200 others were wounded Thursday afternoon.

Ooooops

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

Hey, Don't you think Hamas wants peace, under U.N. recognition???

Jim Carroll: ""Reminds me of 'Psychic Vampires' hovering over dead carcasses, and hoping the war brings more of them."
Nice picture GfS - just about sums up the views I was describing"

Yes, but I was describing the arguing going on in here. Idiots want something to 'debate', and if people being killed, either side, gives them the entertainment of yakking about it, they'll go for it...all in the name of humanitarianism!!!....or putting it simpler, politics, and who 'knows' more and on the 'right side'!...and then they argue that self defense is immoral!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM

My 8.10 referred to deleted posts

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Terrorists-fire-anti-tank-missile-from-Al-Wafa-hospital-368818

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

Using someone else's name makes you a devious liar of the worst and shittiest kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

No Keith some of the most bloodthisty posts in this debate have come from you

But you are still unable to post an example, because it is bollocks.

I was particularly impressed by the ones from you advocating that it was acceptable to fire thousands of tiny darts into the flesh of non-combatant men women and children

That is another lie, and a very nasty one.
Or can you produce such a post?
No.
Just a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:08 AM

Hamas's offensive tunnels should not be confused with the burrows it has dug under Gaza's border with Egypt to smuggle money, consumer goods and military equipment. The newly discovered structures have only one conceivable purpose: to launch attacks inside Israel. Three times in recent days, Hamas fighters emerged from the tunnels in the vicinity of Israeli civilian communities, which they clearly aimed to attack. The ­concrete-lined structures are stocked with materials, such as handcuffs and tranquilizers, that could be used on hostages. Other tunnels in northern Gaza are designed for the storage and firing of missiles at Israeli cities.

The resources devoted by Hamas to this project are staggering, particularly in view of Gaza's extreme poverty. By one Israeli account, the typical tunnel cost $1 million to build over the course of several years, using tons of concrete desperately needed for civilian housing. By design, many of the tunnels have entrances in the heavily populated Shijaiyah district, where the Israeli offensive has been concentrated. One was found underneath al-Wafa hospital, where Hamas also located a command post and stored weapons, according to Israeli officials.

Washington Post

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:57 AM

"Reminds me of 'Psychic Vampires' hovering over dead carcasses, and hoping the war brings more of them."
Nice picture GfS - just about sums up the views I was describing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:39 AM

What's all this 'blood-thirty' stuff?

Reminds me of 'Psychic Vampires' hovering over dead carcasses, and hoping the war brings more of them...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:31 AM

No Keith some of the most bloodthisty posts in this debate have come from you
I was particularly impressed by the ones from you advocating that it was acceptable to fire thousands of tiny darts into the flesh of non-combatant men women and children because because the rules of war (disgustingly inhuman in their own right) allowed it - not to mention the destruction of hospitals, schools, medical centres, homes - and the wanton slaughter of 1000 plus human beings.
Measures pretty insignificant next to my feeble attempts at satire.
Still, we all have our different values - your is religious and political extremism, mine is humanity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:57 AM

It was by far the most bloodthirsty post in this whole debate.
In fact, the only post that could be so described.
Uncalled for Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 03:30 AM

"I guess Mr. Jim's sarcasm didn't go over well."
Seems like it hit where it was aimed at though.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 10:42 PM

I guess Mr. Jim's sarcasm didn't go over well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:36 PM

Journalists receive death threats after reporting Hamas uses human shields

"This is exactly the kind of one-sided propaganda that Hamas wants the international world to see," The Right Scoop said. Now we learn -- to no one's surprise -- that anyone trying to tell the truth about the situation on the ground faces death threats.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:47 PM

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:16 PM

serves them right!

What a sick and shocking statement.
Neither Palestinians nor Israelis deserve their violent deaths.

What we do here is squabble over who is to blame, but let us not joke about the human catastrophe that no-one knows how to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 01:18 PM

Over 1000 Palestinians, 30 Israelis dead - that'll teach the cheeky bastards not respect the big boys, eh - serves them right!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:33 AM

The irony is beyond belief. German and Iranian far-leftists marching in full solidarity with Israel at the "No al-Quds Day" rally, including Kazem Moussavi of the Iranian Green Party, in complete opposition to the Ayatollah fascists marching at the al-Quds day rally. Kudos to those Iranian and German leftists!

QUOTE: Kazem Moussavi, the spokesperson of the Iranian Green Party in Germany and a vocal critic of the Iranian regime, who spoke in support of Israel at the counter demonstration, organized by the leftist No Al-Quds Day group said, "the thousand marching today [in the Al-Quds Day march] are not representative of the millions of Muslims around the world. The Iranian freedom movement stands against radical Islamic movements. We stand with the Israelis and against Hamas"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:16 AM

Are you so stupid or dishonest to count that as support - rhetorical question - both, of course.
You certainly seem to have missed the ironic, contradictory stupidity of your two statements
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

ISRAIL'S INSIDER CRITICS
Avner Gvaryahu is a former Israeli soldier who has become a campaigner against his country's policies. In the city of Hebron, he demonstrates what he regards as the folly of Israel's military occupation of the West Bank

Standing in the middle of Shuhada Street, a thoroughfare that runs through Hebron's old city, Avner Gvaryahu produces a photograph of the area, taken in 1999, and holds aloft to it drive home his point. The scene in the picture is a bustling market, with large crowds moving among fruit and vegetable stalls and cars inching their way through the gaps.
Today the same street is deserted and tense. The shops are all closed, hardly anyone is out and a fortified military watchtower overlooks us. "That used to be the meat market," he says, pointing to a shuttered build¬ing. "And this street used to be full of stalls."
Hebron is the only Palestinian city in the West Bank with a Jewish settlement at its centre. Shuhada Street is the flashpoint, one of the most bitterly contested pieces of urban space in a part of the world where land disputes are invested with existential significance.
Since 2000, Shuhada Street-the epicentre of a community of Israelis that has grown steadily since the first settlers squat¬ted in a house here in 1979 - has been entirely closed to Palestinians.
The map of the city has three types of col¬our-coded roads where the army restricts access in order, it says, to protect a few hundred settlers. Purple means no Palestinian vehicles allowed, yellow means Palestinians cannot drive or open shops, and red marks what the Israeli military calls "a sterilised road", meaning no Palestinians are allowed at all.
Shuhada is red. Yet several Palestinians live on the street; one elderly woman, Mal-kha Kapisha, must climb on to her roof when she wants to leave her home. Graffiti on the street declares: "There is no Palestine. There never will be."
Gvaryahu has brought me here to demonstrate what he regards as the folly of Israel's military occupation of the West Bank. The 29-year-old knows the area well. As a paratrooper in the Israeli army he walked these streets in uniform, helping to enforce the occupation. In recent years he has returned as a critic and campaigner.
"I think what really changed my perspective was just meeting this reality," he says. The first time he was ever in a Palestinian house, Gvaryahu recalls, was when he did his first "straw widow" - army jargon for entering a home to commandeer it as a look¬out post for an operation.
"You go into the house in the middle of the night," he explains. "Whether you break down the door or knock on the door depends on the officer. You get into the house, get an entire family and lock them in a room. If they want to use the bathroom, they need permission from us. If they want to use the kitchen, they need permission from us. It's all under our control.
"This was my first interaction with Palestinians. This is the balance of power."
Destined for the military
Born into a religious-nationalist community in the town of Rehovot, near Tel Aviv, Gvaryahu was always destined for the army. His parents were relatively liberal, politically left of centre, but his father had been a paratrooper, his grandmother had fought in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and when he joined, in 2004, he went straight into a special-operations unit. "I was very enthusiastic," he says. "I felt it was my time, my time to give back, do the right thing. I felt I was going in with my eyes open."
He struggles to identify a turning point, but slowly his questioning became more insistent. He saw Palestinians suffer thefts and humiliation (and, on one occasion, when a woman with a broom was mistaken for a man with a gun, a gunshot wound) at the hands of his fellow soldiers. "All those incidents happened around me, but I man-aged to rationalise them."
Then, a month before he was to be discharged, after three years in the military, Gvaryahu took a tour of occupied areas with Breaking the Silence, an organisation of veterans who have served in the Israeli military and seek to show Israel society the everyday reality of the occupation of Palestinian territory. He would later sign up. "I felt in many cases I was doing more harm than good," he says.
Nestled in the Judaean Mountains south of Jerusalem, Hebron is the largest city in the West Bank and a place venerated by Muslims, Jews and Christians. It is considered the second-holiest city in Judaism, af¬ter Jerusalem, and since the Six Day War, in 1967, the Israeli settler movement, with the support of its government and military, has been encroaching farther into the city.
The international community considers the settlements, like all of those in occupied territory, to be illegal, but Israel has persist¬ed in expanding them. And as Israelis have moved in - there are now almost 10 0 Jewish families in Hebron - Palestinians have been moving out. More than 1,000 Palestinian housing units, about 42 per cent of the apartments in central Hebron, have been abandoned by their occupants.
Israeli policy towards Palestinians near the settlements is all about separation, Gvaryahu argues. Their movements are tightly circumscribed, their shops and roads are closed. They have different legal regimes: a Palestinian throwing a rock at a car can be held for two days; an Israeli doing the same thing could be held for no more than l2 hours.
He believes the unspoken purpose is to make it so difficult for Palestinians to live that they decide to move on and make way for more Israelis.
The small number of Palestinians who live in the old city have built cages around their doors and windows to protect them¬selves against stone-throwing settlers. "In order to start ending this conflict we have to start with ending the occupation, giving Palestinians back their dignity, helping with education and jobs, helping Palestinians grow into their potential," Gvaryahu says.

DRAWING OPPOSITION
The veterans of Breaking the Silence know they don't belong to the Israeli consensus. They see themselves as critics not of the army but of government policy. Yet in a society where the military is highly respected and deeply anchored in the community, their stance has drawn fierce opposition.
As we stroll around the settlement in old Hebron a young man approaches us and introduces himself as Israel. A polite but vigorous argument ensues. Israel, a history student, is angry at Gvaryahu and'his "anti-Israeli" organisation for undermining the country in the eyes of foreigners.
"I'm absolutely shocked," he says. "Soldiers are being killed in Gaza and you're here saying we need to b e full of morals. The IDF" - Israel Defense Forces - "every time they attack a house, they call, they send letters , they text. There is no army in the world that does the same."
Israel warms to his theme. "You know," he says to Gvaryahu, "many soldiers are killed because of you people ... You hand¬cuff the IDF. Every commander in Gaza to¬day has a lawyer following him around."
Gvaryahu replies, "You live in a place where people can't leave the front door of their house, even if it's an 80-year-old woman or a six-year-old child. It's collective punishment... That's a moral discussion which I think it is important to have."
Israel disagrees: "This is not an occupation. This is Jewish land. Abraham came to is this city. We were promised this land," he says. "We were exiled by the Romans 2,000 years ago, but we're back home. I know there were other people here on this land when we came back, but it's absolutely not occupation." He adds, "You can't judge. You don't suffer from shootings here."
"I want to end this reality of long-lasting military occupation for the benefit of both people," says Gvaryahu. "You're not willing to make that compromise for religious reasons, not practical reasons."
Israel says, "We are here because the Israeli government wants us to live here. If we didn't have soldiers here, we'd leave in half a second."
As Gvaryahu walks away Israel calls after him to say he's not too bothered anyway, because "we're winning and you're not".
He's right. The settlements, a cherished cause for ascendant right-wing Israeli parties, have been expanding rapidly across the West Bank; new approvals were granted even in the middle of a recent, unsuccessful round of peace talks brokered by John Kerry, the US secretary of state.
"When we started Breaking the Silence, in 2004,1 think Israeli society was more open to hearing this," Gvaryahu says. "We were even invited into the Israeli parliament. Ten years later we're farther away from ending the occupation."
The climate has become even more delicate since the conflict in Gaza erupted two weeks ago. "I really feel it now more than I felt it a month ago - this feeling that 'this isn't the time, no criticising'," he says. "It's so difficult to hear about these things. It's definitely a taboo. But we're here to raise the moral questions - and if we're here to do that then we have to do it in these difficult times."

BREAKING THE SILENCE EX-ISRAELI SOLDIERS SPEAK
H "On the way back no one had any regrets. We were comparing who had fired at the largest number of people. I was ridiculed for not having killed the armed militant, for just having wounded and not killed him. Then the guys started counting how many each of them had killed." - Staff sergeant, Gaza Strip, 2003

"There's a heavy machine gun there on the porch, a grenade launcher, two marksmen... And they would start ripping the city apart. Spraying. Sight unseen. It was a kind of madness. No one attached any importance to it; the city was like a shooting range." - Staff sergeant, Hebron, 2002

"We were basically the ones who stayed to remove whatever remains were left of the bodies.. .And l remember standing there and simply looking at what was going on. I think they intended to spare me and didn't Let me inside. I stood there and saw parts of something that had once been a human being - and my mouth, I mean, my jaw dropped, and I was just standing there, gaping."-Lieutenant, Gaza Strip, 2003

"My commander decided he identified somebody about 1,000 metres away... The gunner fired to 1,000 metres into a built-up area. At best you hit a wall. At worst you kill somebody who is not the one you aimed at." - Staff sergeant, Gaza Strip, 2000

Excepts taken from a database of 1,000 testimonies from Israeli ex-soldiers, compiled by Breaking the Silence

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:56 AM

Thanks Jim.
I did not expect your support on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:32 AM

"Musket, you revert to personal attack and abuse."
"You sad, inadequate person."
!!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:05 AM

Musket, you revert to personal attack and abuse.
You lack the knowledge or intellect to participate in the discussion, so that is all you can do.

Because you sooooo want to join in with the grown ups.

You sad, inadequate person.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 03:16 AM

"No evidence, just "claims" by Jimmy God Almighty."
Well- Brucie the Belligerant
Unfortunately for you, there is ample history for Israeli atrocities - at the birth of the Israeli state, "Antisemites" like Einstein were warning of the dangers of 'Zionist Fascism' in relation to the slaughter of civilian Arabs.
One of the finest Jewish minds, Noam Chomski, has described Israel as an Apartheid state, and its policy as "ethnic cleansing" and "fascism".
Jewish people have formed organisations all over the world to make their opinions known on what is happening in Israel today and to disassociate themselves from it.
Even within the Church, not so long ago Rabbis for Justice formed themselves into a human shield to prevent the destruction of olive groves belonging to Palestinians, which were being torn down to make room for settlers.
Last year, six former heads of of the Israeli Secret Service sat in from of the camera and expressed their contrition for what they had done in the name of Israel - one choked back the description "Nazi" when he described the present state of Israel.
No proof - don't you have television where you are - can't you get newspapers - are we imagining the rapidly approaching thousand people being slaughtered by those who appear to consider themselves above the laws of humanity - the hundreds of thousands made homeless, the destruction of schools (lost count, but it was 70-odd last time I looked), hospitals, medical centres - all essential to the lives and development of the Palestinian people.
Sure - we all know it's their own fault for not being prepared to surrender and return to the crippling and lethal blockade, the Berlin Walls, the daily humiliation and constant the drain of land in order to create a monocultural (apartheid) State.
Me, God Almighty - it's you and people like you who have made this a "Jewish" crime.      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 03:10 AM

....and promoters of such behavior should not be paid attention to!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM

So.. Israel are killing people who they lock in Gaza to stop Hamas lobbing rockets.

Hamas lob rockets to stop Israel locking in people to Gaza, denying them free movement, access to decent food, water etc.

I don't suppose it takes a rocket scientist to show that Hamas may be in the wrong just as the Israeli militants are, but it is for retaliating. It isn't for provoking.

Keith tells us countries have a right to defend themselves.

If the armchair supporters of Israeli terrorism had any idea outside of the bollocks propaganda they cut and paste (often it seems without bothering to read) they might ....?

No. The mission of fools such as poo bad and braidedbeardedbruce is there for all to see. Don't get excited by Keith's support. He just argues against anything Jim or I say. Don't confuse that with having a stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM

Right on!..Now what do you do when someone decides to upset the peace by launching missiles on civilians, who are not involved in the fight, and would rather have peace, and no terror in the skies!?!?
This is a no brainer....and promoters of such behavior should not be paid attention to!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM

Hamas Killed 160 Palestinian Children to Build Terror Tunnels

The Institute for Palestine Studies published a detailed report on Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon in the summer of 2012. It reported that tunnel construction in Gaza has resulted in a large number of child deaths.

    "At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials"


The author, Nicolas Pelham, explains that Hamas uses child laborers to build their terror tunnels because, "much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies".

Tablet

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Ukie
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM

I come over here to see what is said about Gaza. Seems to me like what is happening in east Ukraine. There must be no bombing of civilians. This is war crime. The skies must be free of terror. All nations should agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:32 PM

SOURCE for your latest cut&paste screed, Bullshot? 25 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:45 PM

bobad: "The simple question detractors can't answer — What could Israel logically do, other than what it's now doing?"

Duhh...You mean other than on here, as well?
I've only asked that question about a half dozen times, and all the 'detractors' seem to double-down on more detraction!..Either they are just agitators of nothing, completely centered on name calling and snotty remarks..or maybe they're just the center of nothing. Not a single constructive suggestion, or plan for peace, or even a plausible plan...just more blind bitching that Hamas has every reason to launch missiles on innocent people, while hiding behind innocent people to do it, to insure misery and death at BOTH ends...so they can hopefully use it as a publicity stunt!...and maybe the propaganda MIGHT work...even if they initiated it!!

like I said a couple of times before,
"I hear echos, in a maze of words"....

The words are empty and mean nothing...just noise, without the heart and mind, and will, to WANT peace....Hamas doe not want peace. Israel doesn't want the fucking missiles dropping from the sky on it's citizens....What to do?..Stop the fucking missiles, right now, either by negotiations or by force..the choice belongs to Hamas. Israel seems willing to accommodate, either way.
Seems sane, to me....


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:17 PM

Musket: "Beardedbruce and other sundry apologists think such a stance is anti Semitic."

Sounds good on paper, and just the stuff 'so-called liberals' like to spout to instill bias....only one problem....Arabs AND Jews are BOTH Semites.

Oh, oh, back to the spinning table!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:57 PM

It is amazing how FEW posts you can make with no factual basis but your imagination.

No evidence, just "claims" by Jimmy God Almighty.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

Sorry, Jimmy-

That is what YOU and Hamas do.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:37 PM

Amany who?
it's amazing how many cut-'n-pastes you can dig up to support your case - at the present time Israel is being attacked for its behaviour by human rights groups and independent observers - from inside and outside Israel
Israel is dealing with the former by shooting down demonstrators on the streets of Israel.
If it hadn't been for 100 United States vetoes, Israel would have #faced human rghts and war crimes courts decades ago.
The facilitator of the Sabra/Shatila massacre would almost certainly have been banged up for his part in that affront to humanity if they hadn't appointed him Prime Minister, out of harm's way.
"As the fight in Gaza wears on, anti-Semites across Europe are attacking the continent's Jews under the pretext of protesting Israel's politics."
Quite probably - and Israel's behaviour has opened the door for them to do it, if they ever needed one.
People like you aren't helping, by blaming "the Jews" for acts of Israeli terrorism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

As the fight in Gaza wears on, anti-Semites across Europe are attacking the continent's Jews under the pretext of protesting Israel's politics.
Since the beginning of the current war between Israel and Hamas, eight synagogues in France have been attacked. In Turkey, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has asked for Jews to apologize for the actions of the Jewish state. In Germany, a prominent Muslim imam gave a sermon asking Allah to kill all of the "Zionist Jews."
The atmosphere in Europe since the beginning of the war has been so toxic that the foreign ministers of France, Italy, and Germany on Tuesday issued a rare joint statement condemning anti-Semitism at pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

All of this presents a troubling paradox for Zionism. The state of Israel was founded in 1948 as a haven for Jews. But in 2014 Europe's anti-Semites have attacked Jews for the deeds of the Jewish state.

It is a classic anti-Semitic canard to punish any Jew for the perceived crimes of all of them. There is no evidence also to suggest that if Israel did not respond to rockets fired from Hamas, the Jews of Europe would be any safer or the continent's anti-Semites would be any more tolerant. After all, some of the worst attacks on Jews in France occurred at a time of relative quiet in Israel.

But during a war that has claimed nearly 700 Palestinians and far fewer Israelis, Jewish leaders in Europe say their communities are being held responsible for the actions of Israel.

"If you are a French Jew you should not be responsible physically for what happens 4,000 kilometers away," Roger Cukierman, the president of the umbrella organization representing the Jewish community in France known as CRIF, told The Daily Beast.

Cukierman is also concerned that in some circles the media have portrayed those attacks as being spurred by small groups of young Jewish citizens who have formed self-defense organizations. He said these groups did not represent the community and he opposed vigilantism, but he also said their role in the attacks has been overblown.

"I am shocked when I hear journalists saying if the De La Roquette synagogue was attacked it is because of the Jews," he said. "This is propaganda. We had eight synagogues being attacked. I am worried about the fact that synagogues are being attacked and not worried about these self-defense groups."

Victor Eliezar, the secretary general of Greece's federation of Jewish community groups, said he had not seen in Greece a rise in anti-Semitic attacks like that of France, but he had noticed a trend in Greek media to delegitimize the Jewish state. "I think the continued use of propaganda, the continued use of using the Palestinian blood, is a tool against Israel, but I worry it will arrive also to the Jews," he said.

The chief executive officer of the World Jewish Congress, Robert Singer, summed up the problem as follows: "I think Jews in Europe are being seen as Israeli."

Most countries take a special interest in their countrymen abroad. But in the case of Israel, it has a special obligation to protect the Jewish diaspora. Throughout its history, Israel has helped airlift vulnerable Jewish populations in countries like Yemen and Ethiopia to safety. The state also secretly aided the immigration of Soviet Jews to Israel during the Cold War when such dissidents were refused the right to leave the Soviet Union.

After all, some of the worst attacks on Jews in France occurred at a time of relative quiet in Israel.
Israel also considers in its military planning the potential for violent retaliation not only against its own citizens but also Jewish populations abroad.

Amos Yadlin, a former head of the intelligence directorate for the Israel Defense Force, told The Daily Beast that Israeli defense planners do take into account whether and how military actions will affect diaspora Jewish populations. But he also said that it is only one of many considerations Israel leaders weigh.

"The general mindset in Israel regarding its responsibility towards the diaspora is based on three principles," Yadlin said. "The first is Zionism—you are all welcome to join us. Secondly, if you're not interested in joining, we try and help you through your government, and advise you when advice is needed. And third—if your government is unwilling to help, and there is risk to your lives, we will try and help in any way we can."

With the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe, Yadlin said it ironically makes the case for immigration to Israel much stronger. "The threats imposed to Jews by anti-Semitism in Europe are not a surprise to us, Jews have been suffering from them for centuries," he said. "The irony in it, today, is that it encourages Jews from countries like France to immigrate into Israel, thus making it stronger."

There may be something to this. The Jewish Agency for Israel—which encourages Jewish immigration to the state—estimates that 5,000 Jews will emigrate from France this year to Israel, the highest figure of French Jewish immigration to the country since its founding in 1948.
But for many Jews that choose to remain in France, they are expecting the country's police to protect them.

"We are French citizens," Cukierman said. "It is the duty of the French government to protect us."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

Wrong again, Jimmy boy.

From Egypt:

"Another presenter, Amany el-Khayat, accused Hamas of trying to promote its "resistance" image by letting Gazan civilians die, saying the group seeks to "wash its face ... with Palestinians' blood."

On Wednesday, in his first public comments on the Gaza crisis, Egypt's president did not even issue the usual Egyptian condemnation of Israeli "aggression."
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM

"YOU have NEVER stated that Hamas should stop any of it's war crimes."
No Brucie, you Bearded Little Bomb-Thrower, you.
I have described the "inevitable" in the face of Israeli terrorism
You, on the other hand, have supported that terrorism unequivocally, claiming that the Palestine people have no rights to the lands they have occupied for a couple of millenia - which is what this is all about.
Yor lot are demanding unconditional surrender and a return to Israeli jackbooting genocide - I have suggested throughout that the the whole question be put in the hands of the U.N. - without the interference of the U.S. veto.
If lobbing ineffectual rockets which have killed 28 people in 12 years is a war crime, whet does that make the use of flechette missiles DIME bombs, White phosphorus, heavy artillery nad , on occasion napalm, for decade after decade - not to mention attempts to starve an entire people into submission for nearly ten years?
War crimes my arse - the Palestinians wouldn't register on the Richter scale next to your boyos
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

Canadian Government position:

"Adam Hodge, spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird, told AFP in response to the criticisms that "Canada mourns the death and suffering of innocent civilians in Gaza.

"However, responsibility rests solely with Hamas and its allies, who launched and continue to feed this crisis," he added.

"We stand by Israel's right to defend itself, by itself. Israel will be forced to continue defending itself as long as Hamas continues its rocket attacks against civilians.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:09 PM

No, Jimmy

YOU have NEVER stated that Hamas should stop any of it's war crimes.

You make excuses for them, but have never said that Hamas should STOP.



I will plainly state MY OPINION:
Israel should stop all operations in Gaza- AS SOON as the they have destroyed the missiles and tunnels that make Hamas a threat to Israel's civilian population.



Now, can we have a statement of YOUR opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM

"I am telling to the parties"
Both parties would that be - hasn't that been our argument all along then?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM

A Thank You Letter From Hamas to the Media

You in the mainstream media have been amazing in your support for Hamas, and we're so grateful to you. This really helps us in spreading anti-Semitism, and starting new rounds of terror at will. Blessings be upon you, love from Hamas

Noah Beck

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM

I'm sure that had Simcha Jacobovici been around 70 years ago, he could have gone far as a propaganda journalist, just so long as he changed his name..

Poo Bad. Either you are impressed by this kind of claptrap, in which case your gullibility precludes debating reality with you, or you are like minded, in which case you are sick.

Ban Ki Moon said what all decent people would say. There is no just side in this conflict. Just innocent people, mainly Palestinians but a few unlucky Israelis too, trapped in this attempt by Israel to see how far the international community will go to stop their incarceration of a whole country. Hamas do not supply the answer, but there again, we are not living under the conditions Israel impose on their neighbours, and have done since 1967. Given their circumstances, perhaps resorting to voting for Hamas is a bit like UK people voting for UKIP and other ultra right wing fascist parties on the basis of existing parties not supplying good government? We can't judge because we aren't there. When I was there, I could have sat and fucking wept, and that was a fairly quiet time...

The cost of the next election campaign in The UK is counted in money. In Israel it is counted in coffins of innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:39 PM

The simple question detractors can't answer — What could Israel logically do, other than what it's now doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM

Journalist and documentary filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici on how Hamas has turned their children into props, and sacrificed them on the altar of Jihad. By misreporting, the media encourages the bad guys to kill their own children, and has dragged Israel into a war it did not want.

Those TV cameras responsible for civilian deaths in Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM

This is what Ban Ki Moon actually said.
"I am telling to the parties -- both Israelis and Hamas, Palestinians, that it is morally wrong to kill your own people," he said. "Whole world has been watching, is watching with great concern. You must stop fighting. And enter into dialogue.

"Whatever grievances you may have, this is wrong. Why are you continuing to kill people? There are many other ways to resolve this issue without killing each other."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM

"On Ch4 News a few nights ago she said Hamas actions were illegal."
Speaking on behalf of the U.N. of course...!!!!
Human rights organisations have been declaring Israeli behaviour illegal and inhuman for years
Had it not been for the U.S. veto, Israel would have been hauled up before the U.N. dozens of times to answer for its behaviour
Isn't it strange (not) that whenever the U.N. or any body indulge in criticism or condemnation of Israel - including John Kerry, they are branded "Antisemitic", yet if a stray mamber of the U.n. passes an opinion in its favour, that opinion becomes indisputable?
Jim Carroll
The UN Secretary no less, has just declared Israel's behaviour as "wrong", but I don't suppose that'll carry the same weights as Navi Pilays, for some strange reason.
Israel's action has now reached The West Bank

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM

As the garbage you post is YOUR perspective, FWK.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

That is your perspective Jim, but enlightened governments do not share it.
Also, Navi Pillay (UN Human Rights) said Israeli action COULD be illegal.
On Ch4 News a few nights ago she said Hamas actions were illegal.
She used the word "unequivocally."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:06 AM

"EU countries call Hamas terrorists not Israel."
EU politicians call Hamas terrorists - Israel most certainly and is slaughtering civilians and destroying their homes, hospitals and schools on the basis of their claim
Israel was won by terrorism, as were many nations, and their 'terrorists' became national heroes
The difference with Israel is that it has become a terrorist State using terrorist methods to expand its territory and crush opposition to its doing so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

Oh, bum. Only just noticed who I was replying to. Too late to withdraw it now. And my point holds anyhow.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

The antisemitism subsists in all your obsessive concentration on this particular [defensive] conflict, with no reference to other, far more destructive and lethal, ones currently in progress in the same area.

You think it doesn't, but it does...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 10:50 AM

The world, which I subscribe to..

Which world is that Musket?


EU countries call Hamas terrorists not Israel.
Does your world not have a Europe or an EU?

I have long suspected you are not of this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

It's a democracy thing I suppose. The world, which I subscribe to requires Israel to cease their terrorist activities in Gaza.

Beardedbruce and other sundry apologists think such a stance is anti Semitic.

Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM

You even admitted that you had the wrong person- after the fact.

Well, BullshotBruce, that's what honest folks do when they realize they've made a mistake. Unlike yourself.

PS: it would have been a bit difficult to admit it before the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

"YOU have not yet presented ANY such facts. "
Turn on your television - take a look at the photographs of the missiles used, count the civilian dead -red the reports of the Shatila/Sabra massacre facilitated and actively assisted by Israel, who then went on to make the declared leader of Israel's complicity prime minister- see the photographs of children's faces burned to the bone by white phosphorus dropped on civilian area...... all recorded history.
Of course, none of this mkes the slightest difference to you - you have proposed that all Palestinians be evicted and "let their Muslim friends in the surrounding states take care of them" (on the same thread as the one where I supported Hamas (according to you!)
Have a good day now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:45 AM

Musket, BBs point that far greater death tolls of Arabsare ignored here because Israel is not involved is a very valid one.

Where is there condemnation of Assad or Isis to compare with the never ending, all consuming posts about Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:45 AM

Jimmy boy,

" when the facts of Israel's terrorism "

YOU have not yet presented ANY such facts. YOU have made claims, which you will not provide proof for, and presented statements from ONE side, demanded we accept them and then refused to even investigate claims by the other side.


Not a reasonable way to debate, or even persuade others you have a valid point to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:41 AM

"Alan Dershowitz"
O. J Simpson's lawyer who once accused Alice Walker of 'antisemitism' for refusing permission for her novel, 'The Color Purple' to be published in Israel
Now that is worrying!!
Is there really any point in producing pro-Israeli cut-,n-pastes from wherever you can gather them, when the facts of Israel's terrorism speak for themselves in the murder of civilians (%20 of them children), the destruction of hospitals, schools health centers and home, and the turning of then of thousands of families out onto the street, to be maime and killed by bombs, heavy artillery, chemical and biological weapons.... etc?
A bear of very little brain indeed

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

You have defended the use of white phosphorous as "harmless illumination"

Your quote is faked.
You lie again.
It is actually dangerous stuff.
Why do you keep making up shit about me Jim?

DIME may have biological effects, but not "bacteriological."
Little is actually known of its effects on people.
It is designed to reduce collateral damage by limiting the spread of the explosion, so you can see why Israel might want to use it.
How certain are you of its use Jim?

On flechettes, I was trying to help you understand that they are just a refinement of Herr Shrapnels's invention, not a totally new kind of weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

No caring for small boys, no abuse, no convictions- STOP judging others by yourself and your friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:38 AM

"What if I were to bring up your conviction for sexual abuse of small boys in your care? "

You would ( continue) to be a liar.



YOU are the one who brings up child molestation- it seems like a dear topic for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM

Beardedbruce.

Why are you typing such filth? Why do you assume anybody who opposes Israeli militant terrorism is on the side of any other militant faction?

Why do you state as a fact that only people killed by Israelis are human according to me.. Where do you read that? What if I were to bring up your conviction for sexual abuse of small boys in your care?

Why don't moderators pull the plug on your hateful lies and obscenities?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM

"During two days last week, more Syrians were killed than in the entire flare up between Israel and Hamas over the last two weeks. In total, more Arabs have died in the current Syrian civil war than in the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict by nearly a factor of two."

But Jimmy and Musket don't care how many Arab Muslims get killed- they are all just cannon fodder to attack Israel with. If the ones killed in Syria can't be blamed on Israel, then they are not "significant". Only ones killed by Israel are "human beings" according to Jimmy and Musket.


GregF,

YOU stated that I had called someone a "Dumb Ni**er"


Your explainanition was that SOMEONE ELSE had used the term "Black, and Democrat", which YOU read as "Dumb Ni**er"


You even admitted that you had the wrong person- after the fact.


In this area of the country, people are fired from their jobs for using such terms as "niggardly" , even correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:00 AM

The simple question detractors can't answer — What could Israel logically do, other than what it's now doing?

National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:54 AM

Retired Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz says the media have been racist in their coverage of the Israeli-Hamas coverage.

During an interview on the Hugh Hewitt radio show, Dershowitz said the media have totally ignored the far greater casualties that have occurred in Muslim-on-Muslim violence in the Arab world.

"Seven hundred people were killed in two days last week — there wasn't a word about it in the media," Dershowitz told this writer, who has been guest hosting Hugh Hewitt's radio show all this week. "But a few dozen Palestinians were killed and the body count was prominent."

"And I think it is racism — implicit racism on the part of the media," he continued. "And that is, when an Arab and Muslim kills another Arab and Muslim, it is not news. But when an Israeli Jew in self defense kills an Arab Muslim, that becomes front-page news."

During two days last week, more Syrians were killed than in the entire flare up between Israel and Hamas over the last two weeks. In total, more Arabs have died in the current Syrian civil war than in the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict by nearly a factor of two.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/24/alan-dershowitz-media-racist-in-coverage-of-israel-hamas-conflict/#ixzz38TbjhZ18

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:47 AM

Hamas Fires on IDF Field Hospital
By: Jewish Press News Briefs
Published: July 23rd, 2014

Hamas terrorists fired mortar rounds Wednesday at an IDF field hospital on the Israeli side of the Gaza border, according to a report on Israel Radio. The Israeli army set up the hospital last week to treat Palestinian victims of Hamas' "human shields" policy, but the report indicated that the terror gang has prevented wounded Palestinians from seeking treatment there.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:34 AM

"From the 48 Hamas prisoners that have been captured, the intelligence have been interrogating them and the most terrifying, and horrific picture is being built.

"They are being investigated about the many tunnels that have been found and dug under many kibbutzim that surround Gaza. The most terrifying detail is being uncovered that Hamas had a plan to attack all the settlements and kibbutzim in the area this year on Rosh Hashanah with an invasion of over 200 terrorists into almost all the settlements in the area. The tunnels went under the kibbutzim under the kindergartens and dining rooms and other areas within the kibbutz perimeters. They planned to occupy the whole area and kill as many Israeli as possible.

"This could have been the worst terror attack in the history of terrorism. Thousands of people, including women and children would have been slaughtered in this planned attack.

"I think now we start to understand how dangerous these tunnels really are. They all have to be destroyed and we cannot leave even one undetected or unattended to. These tunnels are more dangerous than any rocket or any other weapon."

Full roundup of intelligence on the Hamas tunnels and planned mega-attacks here: http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2014/07/what-hamas-planned-to-do-with-terror.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:26 AM

"No-one has Jim."
You have the legality of using flechette weapons on civilians yest you have derisively compared them to Napoleonic weapons -that is to condone them
You have defended the use of white phosphorous as "harmless illumination" - even the Israelis accepted their nature and withdrew them last year - you condoned them firsr time round (because the Israelis used them) now you remain silent on them.
You denied the dstruction of hospitals, then you defended their destruction on the basis of the Israeli 'human d#shields' (slaughtering hostages) claim - do you have a view on them now, particularly on the latest atrocity?
The Isralis are using DIME weapons, which are known to have bacteriological effects on their targets - silence.
You have supported atrocities and war crimes throughout all these threads from day one
You're a mess Keith - for a claimed Christian, you are a caricature of everything that is wrong with religion.
"I can see where both Jim & Keith"
Passing by o the other side - make sure that fance-post doesn't go too far up your backside.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:40 AM

Remember that nice ironic bit early on in The Bridge On The River Kwai, where the Japanese Commandant flings down the copy of the Geneva Convention which Colonel Nicolson [Alec Guinness] has offered him, & Nicolson says, oh ever-so sarcastically and crushingly, something like "If you have no regard for the rules of civilised warfare, then I have nothing further to say to you!"

And ain't that him told, just...!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:25 AM

We really are back in the ancient territory; as to whether war can ever be justified; if so, what limits should be placed on its prosecution; are there certain weapons which can't be employed; and can using such ever be justified in the interests of ending hostilities sooner rather than later and so avoiding further deaths and casualties???.....

Questions which have been exercising people for just about as long as....

I can see where both Jim & Keith are coming from; but somehow have no great hopes of the matter being settled just this morning.

Pity, as I have to go out this afternoon. But there it is.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM

That anybody can condone that use is, as far as I'm concerned, the depth of depravity.

No-one has Jim.
I did explain the legal position as you were making a lot of statements based on your total ignorance.
That is in no sense condoning the use of any violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM

"Hey Jim, I thought you were to be commended for your prior demeanor in dealing with the topic."
Not my complain GfS
Now Israels slaughter is well underway, its supporters seem to have now gone viral in their support.
They are far better in making my point than I am - think I'll leave them to it.
Ji Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:49 AM

Hey Jim, I thought you were to be commended for your prior demeanor in dealing with the topic...forget it. You've been sucked into the fray, and are not above it, to offer peace or peaceful solutions.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:09 AM

"Replace the word "darts" with "fragments" and you have a description of the kind of shell in use since Napoleonic times.
They are considered legal weapons but like all weapons can be used illegally."
I would condemn out of hand the use of weapons that explode and spray shrapnel into the flesh of human beings under any circumstances.
These are thousands of deliberately designed dart-shaped missiles which are packed into a casing in order that they may spray over an area and bury themselves into human flesh.
Their use is illegal when they are directed at non-combatants, which is exactly how that have been used in Gaza - and have been photographed having been used.
That anybody can condone that use is, as far as I'm concerned, the depth of depravity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:05 AM

At this rate, and being as bringing a solution for peace, or at least a cease fire(different things), seems to be an impossibility for the 'less evolved'....I'm surprised you guys haven't launched missiles at each other...and join in on the fight!
...aand all this time I thought musicians were more dialed into peace... I bet you these internal conflicts takes its toll on your ability to play well!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:42 PM

more Hasbara tinged bullshit.

"let's go to a hill in Sderot, bring some lawn chairs and beer
when a missile hits the Strip we'll all stand up and cheer
take a few selfies, cuz we're good at what we do
we can protect ourselves And have some fun at a Gaza Barbeque"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:01 PM

Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, talks to Ynet about Israel's military and moral superiority over Hamas, and says Israel should hit Gaza harder and faster.

"There is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas we're talking about a Western liberal democracy fighting an internationally prescribed terrorist group".

"I would like to see the IDF operating much faster, going in perhaps harder and faster, that's what I would like to see," Kemp told Ynet on Wednesday.

"But having said that, I recognize - as you recognize - the pressures on Israel from all around the world to absolutely minimize the number of civilian casualties they're causing", he added. "I believe that on the basis of everything that I've seen, that everything the IDF does to protect civilians and to stop the death of innocent civilians is a great deal more than any other army, and it's more than the British and the American armies."

        

'IDF does more than any other army to prevent civilian deaths'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM

YOU already tried to smear me with an outright lie,

Please specify and document, or is this just the usual run of horseshit to be expected from BullshitBruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:19 PM

Jim, re your description of flechettes.

"The "twist" being that they hurl thousands of two centimetre darts into aybody within range"

Replace the word "darts" with "fragments" and you have a description of the kind of shell in use since Napoleonic times.
They are considered legal weapons but like all weapons can be used illegally.
Clear now?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM

So I have lied?

Where?

Another lie from someone who sees his role in defending those who set out to murder women and children and a track record in oppressing a country.

Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:54 PM

No? sorry, the film starts in a minute, and I love Michael Douglas thrillers
Must go
Byee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:47 PM

Come on Brucie - you've had plenty of time
People will begin to think your making it all up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:40 PM

"NOW SHOW THE PLACE IN THE THREAD"
I told youwhere to find it - right next to where I said I supported Hamas
You've claimed I have often enough - you must remember exactly where it was
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:35 PM

NO, Jimmy boy-


YOU made the claim I said something- NOW SHOW THE PLACE IN THE THREAD, or be proven more of a piece of shit than GregF.




If YOU can't prove that I said it, all I HAVE said stands as true.


I have already demonstrated that your repeating proven lies to benefit Hamas is supporting that terrorist organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:29 PM

"decided that if he lies enough,"
Easily proved that I've lied Brucie - to take a leaf out of your own book - porove you haven't said what I claim you have - or on the other hand, prove that anybody here supports Hamas.
Lie the penis that you re - it's all in your hands
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:23 PM

GregF,

YOU already tried to smear me with an outright lie, and got caught at it. Do you think you might stop having your friends try being as much of a scum-sucking asshole as you have been?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:21 PM

BullshitBruce is obviously off his meds again.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:19 PM

I see that Jimmy has taken ANOTHER page from the Nazis he so greatly respects, and decided that if he lies enough, he will be believed even without any basis in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM

Wrong again, Jimmy.

"Nope - right next to the posting where I said I supported Hamas - you must remember it, surely?
It was the thread where you said all Muslims should be sent back to where they come from because they were a threat to decent people.
I don't think it was the same one you said all gays were sick, but it was around about the same time
"

MORE lies- I never said those statements- YOU may have lied and said I did, but I did not.


Since YOU make this claim, show me the thread where it happens, or shut the fuck up, you scums-ucking piece of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM

"I NEVER said that, it is another one of YOUR LIES."
Nope - right next to the posting where I said I supported Hamas - you must remember it, surely?
It was the thread where you said all Muslims should be sent back to where they come from because they were a threat to decent people.
I don't think it was the same one you said all gays were sick, but it was around about the same time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:09 PM

Perhaps the moderators are happy to allow terrorist propaganda but decent people must be sick with Musket and his lies, failures to present ANY factual support for his opinions, and continuous support and apologising for murdering Hamas thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM

Perhaps the moderators are happy to allow terrorist propaganda but decent people must be sick with beardedbruce and his apologising for murdering bastard thugs.

It's about time The USA stopped propping up this embarrassing pariah state.

The attacks on UN facilities are a war crime even under Keith's skewed interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Jim, you lying scum sucker,

""Supporting the killing of the refugees staying at a school now - I don't believe it - whoops sorry - yes do"

I DO NOT _ YOU DO from YOUR support of Hamas rockets that KILL PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS.



"You have always hated Muslims "

ANOTHER LIE YOU have proven you hate them since YOU want to see them dead from your support of HAMAS war crimes.




"and have made that plain ever since you said they were less than human and should be driven into the desert as they had no rights to live in Palestine, but this really is a step too
far."


I NEVER said that, it is another one of YOUR LIES.







You have yet to present any facts, but you HAVE shown that you would rather lie than discuss the facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM

"Supporting the killing of the refugees staying at a school now - I don't believe it - whoops sorry - yes do
You have always hated Muslims and have made that plain ever since you said they were less than human and should be driven into the desert as they had no rights to live in Palestine, but this really is a step too far.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM

"The Palestinian Red Crescent said Israeli shells had hit the compound.

The Israeli military said Hamas had launched rockets that fell in the area that could have been responsible for the deaths.

"We can't confirm that this is a result of errant fire. In any case, we do not target U.N. facilities," military spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said. Lerner said the military had urged the U.N. and the Red Cross to evacuate the school for three days leading up to the incident."





Amazing how Palestinian government sources are ALWAYS certain it is Israeli fire, without even taking time to check the facts, while Israeli sources use terms like "could have" and "can't confirm" when there has not been enough time to determine what actually happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

"Musket, YOU have never even entered the discussion- just made baseless comments about people rather than bringing up any facts you might have to defend your viewpoint."

.,,.

That is the MO of this particular pathetic little specimen, Bruce. He knows I have got so fed up with him that I just don't read his posts any more -- even if he starts a fake thread with my name in the title just for the purpose of trying to make me -- look at the index. Silly little fool!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:38 PM

"He once again "condemned Hamas rocket fire and called on Israel to exercise particular care to avoid any attack on United Nations premises where civilians have taken refuge."

Ban expressed alarm on Wednesday after rockets were found in a vacant U.N. school in Gaza for the second time in a week, warning in a statement that "those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children."
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:18 PM

Palestinian HAMAS officials claim that it was Israeli tank shells-


— Israeli tank shells hit a compound housing a U.N. school in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, killing at least 15 people and wounding dozens who were seeking shelter from fierce clashes on the streets outside, Palestinian officials said, as Israel pressed forward with its 17-day war against the territory's Hamas rulers.

Pools of blood stained the school courtyard in the northern town of Beit Hanoun, amid scattered books and belongings. There was a large scorch mark in the courtyard marking the place where one of the tank shells hit. Dozens of people, including children were wheeled into a nearby hospital as sirens wailed."


This sounds a LOT like an Hamas rocket, and NOTHING like a tank shell of any kind.



"The Israeli military said it was reviewing the incident, saying that rockets launched by Hamas had landed in the Beit Hanoun area during fighting with its forces, and that those rockets may be responsible for the deaths."

Amazing how a tank shell that puts holes in concrete just leaves a black mark in an undamaged courtyard, like those Hamas rocket ANTI_PERSONNEL Warheads do.


But of course we HAVE to believe Hamas, and CANNOT believe Israel NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE.


What a bunch of shit-for-brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM

Jimmy,

YOU have not presented anything of a factual basis.

YOU have made attacks on those presenting factual items, rather than even attempting to find any facts that contraindicate those presented.

YOU have been proven wrong in most if not all of your posts.

Just because YOU keep lying does not mean that anything you say will be considered valid without SOME attempt at a factual basis for your statements.



Musket, YOU have never even entered the discussion- just made baseless comments about people rather than bringing up any facts you might have to defend your viewpoint.


The Palestinians' civilian blood still remains upon YOUR hands, for your support of Hamas war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM

Just announced
Israeli's shells U.N. school being used as a shelter - 15 dead, mainly women and children, dozens injures.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:01 PM

"I backed up MY facts and proved you a liar. "
Do't think so Brucie - I think we've both managed to make my pouint perfectly - don'y you
Have a good bloodbath
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 12:49 PM

It's a good job braidedbeardedbruce is impotent. With such awful twisting of logic and hate filled accusations, he could make a good spokesman for Israeli militants and terrorists. Perhaps if the price were right, he might start supporting Hamas terrorists instead?

Such fools make good mercenaries in the writing sense. Not the military sense as I assume from his bloodthirsty waffle that he might shit himself if he heard a rocket fire within five miles.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 11:51 AM

Jimmy boy,

I backed up MY facts and proved you a liar.

YOU have Palestinian blood on YOUR hands, courtesy of your support of Hamas war crimes.

YOU have proven you are an Anti-Semite by the EU definition BY YOUR OWN POSTS.

YOU have repeated lies that support Hamas, a declared terrorist organization.

You must be so proud of yourself - Killing Muslims AND getting to try to blame the Israelis for the shrapnel CAUSED BY HAMAS ROCKETS.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM

Not bothering to back up your lying? - didn't think so for a minute
More facts to ingnore.
Israel is not only using flechette dart spraying missiles on civilians, but, despite having declared it will no longer use white phosphorus a year ago, it is now being used in Gaza.
It is also using 'Dime' missiles' which are claimed to have a biological effect on its victims - Brave New World eh?
Keep it up Brucie - couldn't make a better job of it myself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM

"Atrocity supporting shit
Jim Carroll"



Yep- that about sums it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM

"It is just a new twist on Mr. Shrapnels invention.
The "twist2 being that they hurl thousands of two centimetre darts into aybody within range - n this case, women and children that's all right then.
What were you saying about "bloodthirsty"?
Atrocity supporting shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 09:39 AM

Just to let the idiotic Ian know that I have noticed my name [can't help it] at the beginning or ends of some of his posts; but they haven't been read, so he is wasting his time if he expects me to have any remote idea what they contained. Nothing that would be of any interest to me, I imagine.

☞〠☜

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:28 AM

I think that was an expression when I was in junior high.

Comment was tailored to the intellectual age of the recipient, Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:13 AM

These missiles scatter thousands of small darts over a wide area - they are deliberately designed anti-personnel weapons and are illegal for use on non combatant civilians.

It is just a new twist on Mr. Shrapnels invention.
All weapons are "illegal for use on non combatant civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:58 AM

An interesting article from the New York Times.

The Hamas Gamble 

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:56 AM

By the way Keith - Israel has been reported as targeting a rehabilitation hospital in its war against civilian - another triumph you can chalk up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:16 AM

" pointed out that most weapons kill by driving bits of metal through bodies.
Nasty but sadly legal and universal."
These missiles scatter thousands of small darts over a wide area - they are deliberately designed anti-personnel weapons and are illegal for use on non combatant civilians.
I can take it that you accept this monstrous shit as being acceptable for use on civilians - just about wraps it up on your bloodthirsty inhumanity - that'll do nicely thank you.
Three letters today from the Irish Times indicating that, While Israel is winning the war, it will be never accepted as winning the peace:

The crisis in Gaza

Sir, - The one hope, however 'forlorn, of the terrible tragedy being played out in Gaza in these awful days is that the inter¬national powers, especially the USA and the EU, will ensure the removal of the conditions which are the root cause of the terrible situation there. This would simply involve granting the people of both Palestine and Gaza the right to have their own governments and to travel within and out of their territories by land, sea and air.
Of course Israel, like any country, has the right to control the traffic across its own borders, but it has none whatsoever to make Gaza the largest open air prison in the world, to n have hundreds of checkpoints :- across the illegally occupied territories of Palestine and to prevent Gaza and Palestine having their own airports.    Repression in any society inevitably leads to extremism, usually referred to by the repressors as terrorism, as we have seen in our own country and elsewhere in the history of the world. Hamas may indeed be called a terrorist organisation in that its rockets undoubtedly cause terror in Israel, but by any measure of terrorism, its actions are more minor than those of the Israeli government.
There is no competition. The real terrorists in Palestine and Gaza are the Israeli Defence Forces, with Hamas, with its largely ineffective rockets, a far distant second. The responsibility for bringing about a permanent peace in Palestine clearly now belongs to the international political world and our own representatives in the European Parliament must promote the establishment of a complete boycott of all educational, social and business programmes with Israel until its government recognises the rights of the Palestinian people to have the same freedoms as their own people enjoy. Until this is achieved, the battles will continue. –
Yours, etc.
PROF EMERITUS
JOHN KELLY,
University College,
Dublin 4

A chara, - Paddy Crean (Letters, July 23rd) suggests that "If Ireland wants to position itself as a peacemaker, it must first be careful not to be seen as taking sides". What nonsense. Let me list just a few of the issues on which Mr Crean would have us take the safe middle ground: 600 Palestinians, including 121 children, killed in two weeks by Israeli shelling. -According to the UN office for the co-ordina¬tion of humanitarian affairs (OCHA), "there is literally no safe place (in Gaza) for civilians", with 500 homes destroyed by Israeli air strikes and 100,000 Palestinians seeking shelter from the UN Relief and Works Agency.
The UN human rights com¬missioner, Navi Pillay, suggests that the Israeli action "could amount to war crimes"- not to mention the endless land grab and stealing of natural water springs by Israeli settlers on the West Bank or the apartheid wall which, according to the International Court of Justice, is "contrary to international law". The list goes on and on.
As for me, I'm taking sides. Boycott Israel and all things Is¬raeli. - Is mise le meas,
BRENDAN ARCHBOLD,
Philipsburgh Avenue,
Dublin 3

Sir, - Imagine if after the London bombings Britain had bombed the Bogside, shelled Divis Flats and fired a tank shell at Altnagelvin Hospital. Would we call a resulting 500 + deaths mass murder? - Yours etc
MIKE JENNINGS,
Kincora Road,
Clontarf,
Dublin 3

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM

Musket,
   Keith asks, "The common ground is that Hamas is wrong to fire rockets and it is a war crime.
Do we disagree on that?"

Is this correct?
(I'd like to add a 'footnote'. The above question uses the word 'wrong' and being as that could go back into arguing about justification(s), ad nauseum, perhaps, 'actions that initiated the weapon exchanges'...if that's OK?)

Is there common ground here??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:50 AM

Keith. In all seriousness, why are you asking people to condemn Hamas?

Are you inferring some here support their methods of fighting fire with fire?

You see, you have allowed yourself entry into the camp that says that if you don't support one set of armed militants (Israeli forces) you must therefore must be in league with other militant forces (Hamas.)

Before this subject came up, you were a bloke with a very dogmatic view that rarely reflected reality and it was a good laugh to watch you dig out "eminent" sources to justify your stance.

Now, you have crossed a line. The others such as Poo Bad and braidedbeardedbruce are irrelevant mouthpieces for hate. It is a pity you have chosen to play in their sandpit.

You have gone so far down in my estimation I wonder whether talking the piss out of you is the correct approach? It just seems too friendly given the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:20 AM

Typo correction:

Keith from Hertferd: "All such weapons can be put to illegal use.
If that has happened it is disgusting."

I think the issue lies somewhere what people see as 'legal' or 'morally right' to do...right now nobody has come up with a possible solution, and you've become AS deadlocked AS the Israelis and Hamas. 'WHO' gives in, 'how' and 'why'...even in HERE.

Keith asks, "The common ground is that Hamas is wrong to fire rockets and it is a war crime.
Do we disagree on that?"

Is this correct?
(I'd like to add a 'footnote'. The above question uses the word 'wrong' and being as that could go back into arguing about justification(s), ad nauseum, perhaps, 'actions that initiated the weapon exchanges'...if that's OK?)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Keith from Hertferd: "All such weapons can be put to illegal use.
If that has happened it is disgusting."

I think the issue lies somewhere what people see as 'legal' or 'morally right' to do...right now nobody has come up with a possible solution, and you've become as deadlocked at the Israelis and Hamas. 'WHO' gives in, 'how' and 'why'...even in HERE.

Keith asks, "The common ground is that Hamas is wrong to fire rockets and it is a war crime.
Do we disagree on that?"

Is this correct?
(I'd like to add a 'footnote'. The above question uses the word 'wrong' and being as that could go back into arguing about justification(s), ad nauseum, perhaps, 'actions that initiated the weapon exchanges'...if that's OK?)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:27 AM

Jim, I did respond to you question about flechette weapons.

I pointed out that most weapons kill by driving bits of metal through bodies.
Nasty but sadly legal and universal.

All such weapons can be put to illegal use.
If that has happened it is disgusting.
Has it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:20 AM

The common ground is that Hamas is wrong to fire rockets and it is a war crime.

Do we disagree on that?
If not, my further question was, does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals, or do they lose that right because of the further war crime of siting among civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:01 AM

Hey Michael!

I fucking never fucking well chaired a fucking meeting of fucking trustees, you ignorant fucker. Fucking Parliament are the fucking trustees of fucking NHS fucking trusts.

Fucking well get your fucking facts right before fucking spouting off fucking fantasy to someone who fucking well doesn't give a flying fuck.

More tea vicar?




Still, for someone who doesn't read my posts, you certainly reply to them. A bit like some of your like minded friends on this and similar threads. They read what they want to read and judge others by their prejudice rather than fact.

Trust me, any criticism of you comes from what you type not what I want others to think you type.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:54 AM

"Common ground."
Not unless this inhuman toe-rag has leapt the humanity-gap and decided to join the rest of us (or maybe decided to live up to his Christian principles instead ove wearing them like a logo on a tee shirt).
I find arguing with people who constantly defend atrocities by either denial or by ignoring them distasteful, to say the least.
Flechette weapons anybody?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:32 AM

I think that was an expression when I was in junior high. You've come a long way!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:07 PM

Bite me, Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:53 PM

Keith from Hertferd; "Thank you for those straight answers Jim.
Common ground."

I told you, Keith..he's the only one with straight dialogue and maintaining civility(though we may disagree, in places). He's putting the other babies to shame!...and USEFUL dialogue is what is needed!!

Give him time to think onto the next two questions...BTW, the way you asked them, DOES, include some 'possible bias contentious judgement calls'....but if it doesn't DE-EVOLVE into all the nitpicking, you can come to a base for resolution!

beardedbruce: (To Greg)"If Israel did not have the defense system to protect their civilians, Gaza would have been carpet bombed after the first few missiles from there, and the death toll for civilians would have been in the tens of thousands.
It is obvious that that would suit you just fine.
I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation."


I doubt if Greg is capable of thinking constructively, other than throwing out very juvenile slurs and cat-calls(along with Musket). However, if Greg wants to change that(and not being thought of as a light-weight), it's up to him to follow Jim Carroll's lead, and discuss the issue, sans all the back-biting.......I mean, it's up to him if he wants to be taken seriously, or as a Toy Poodle, yapping ignorable crap.

Bruce: "I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation."

There is only one solution, that I can think of, right now....stop the launching of missiles into Israel, so Israel doesn't have to fire back, to protect its citizens and country, by firing into the Hamas bases, surrounded, purposely by design, around the Palestinian people, and their domestic infrastructure.
It's simple common sense....any other suggestions to a solution??

...and as I posted....

"Solutions??

I hear echos,
In a maze of words!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:32 PM

clearly shows that you do support Hamas/Palestineans.

So now you're rather stupidly conflating "Hamas" with "Palestineans"?
Jesus Wept.

But aside from that, John, you obviously cannot support your spurious accusation. No surprise there.

You maintain the same infantile and idiotic assertion that anyone who opposes certain policies of the Israeli government is therefore ipso facto:

1. A supporter of Hamas

2. An anti-Semite.

You, sir, are either an idiot or an asshole. Or possibly both.

I will not respond to any of them that do used reasoned argument.

I then look forward to your res[ponses to posts -like your own- that do NOT show reasoned argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:10 PM

Greg--

We both know,(nay, everybody knows) that you probably have never directly said, "I support Hamas," or "I support Palestine," or "I hate Jews," or "I hate Israel,". But the tenor of your posts on the actions of Israel, and your sarcasm and invective, the name calling you invoke towards other peoples opinions, or on posted outside articles clearly shows that you do support Hamas/Palestineans. I counted perhaps a dozen or more such posts from you from August '13 thru Sept/Oct '13 which reveal that strategy just at this thread alone. I know I'd find way more if I bothered to continue to search until today, here; or if I looked up all your posts at various related threads over the years.

So you may curse me; you may call me names; and you may address me in scatological terms, whatever. But you are what you are, no matter how you try to deny it. While I,may read your future posts, I will not respond to any of them that do used reasoned argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM

"Israeli troops entering Gaza last week have so far uncovered 18 tunnels used by Hamas to send armed terrorists into Israel and built using an estimated 800,000 tons of concrete. What else might that much concrete build? Erecting Dubai's Burj Khalifa, the world's tallest tower, required 110,000 tons of concrete"

"Hamas, then, could've treated itself to seven such monstrosities and still had a few tens of thousands of tons to spare. If it wanted to build kindergartens equipped with bomb shelters, like Israel has built for the besieged citizens of Sderot, for example—after all, noted military strategists like Jon Stewart have spent last week proclaiming that Gaza's citizens had nowhere to hide from Israel's artillery—Hamas could have used its leftovers to whip up about two that were each as big as Giants Stadium. And that's just 18 tunnels. Egypt, on its end, recently claimed to have destroyed an additional 1,370. That's a lot of concrete."

Some Concrete Facts About Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:47 PM

Yup, that quite an envious record for the Govt of Israel: one dead Palestinian child every hour.

Quite the gang of humanitarians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM

I sure wouldn't believe that base on your hundreds of posts over the years. Your posts gainsay that comment.

OK John From The Bullshit Coast: PROVE that I have expressed support for Hamas in any post on this forum, ever, or apoligize.

(Not that I expect either from a weasel such as yourself.)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:54 PM

Proportionality in terms of war casualties is a stupid, meaningless term! The are about 2M folks living in Gaza; about 8M in Israel.
So, if proportionality were observed, Gazans should be permitted to kill 4 Israelis for each Gazan killed; or perhaps a ratio of 7 Israelis for each 2 Gaza casualties, if we don't count the 1.5M Arab Israelis.

The truth is there should be no casualties on either side, but if the Gazans want to continue fighting, then all bets are off. Israel, nor any country, is obliged to let any of its citizens die because because the other side want s to fight. To quote Gen. Geo. Patton, "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:25 PM

Israel's Ambassador to the United States Ron Dermer on proprtionality:

"It's important to understand what proportionality is in terms of the rules of war. There's two basic principles that you have to remember. The first is distinction, you make a distinction between combatants and noncombatants. That's the most important principle of the rules of war, that you have to make that distinction. And here Israel always makes that distinction. You have have Hamas that is deliberately targeting our civilians hoping to kill as many as possible. And you have Israel that does not deliberately target a single Palestinian civilian. We don't deliberately target their civilians. For us, when a civilian is killed it's an operational failure. And the more civilians who are killed, the greater the operational failure. And obviously a tragedy even of itself. And for Hamas, they celebrate—the greater the number of civilian casualties, for them, the greater the success of their operation.

    And then you have the issue of proportionality.

    Let's say there's a legitimate target because when a schoolhouse, hospital, mosque is turned into a military command center or a weapons depot, or a place where you fire rockets, it becomes by the rules of war a legitimate target. You cannot turn a hospital into a military command center. You cannot do that according to the rules of law. It's a war crime for Hamas to do that. You cannot turn an UNRWA school into a weapons depot, that's a war crime. You cannot use a Mosque as a missile manufacturing facility. It becomes a legitimate target. Then the question is okay, but can you target it in this specific instance.

    There you get into the question of proportionality. Meaning, just because it's a legitimate target doesn't necessarily give you the right to hit it. Because for that, for you to be able to do that, you have to show that the gain you will get from the military action you take is worth the potential loss of lives that you might even foresee ahead of time. So I don't want to get into theoretical examples but if you had you know 1 rocket that was sitting in a school somewhere and there are 50 kids in a classroom, then you cannot actually target to get to that rocket and kill those kids. That would be disproportionate because the gain that you have by hitting that one rocket would not justify killing 50 kids in the school. By the same token if you had 200 rockets in place and you had one civilian, by the rules of war, you could target that place even if you knew ahead of time that the civilian would be hurt.

    Now there are all sorts of judgment calls that happen in between. Can you target that same target tomorrow or in an hour or in three hours? And Israel is always making these calculations."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM

"I do think the point has to be made, if rockets are being shot at Israel, that Israel does have a right to defend itself. But , the bottom line is the question of proportionality. Madeleine Albright in a recent CNN interview with Wolf Blitzer.

Question: in what conflict was the concept of proportionality followed?

I dont recall it being a major factor in the long history of conflict. It did not seem a big factor in either WW1 or WW2. The allies, NATO nor the USA has not seem to consider it as a big factor. The USA surely didinot follow it in Japan (surely not with the A bombs), in Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, Afganistan, Croatia, or even in Lybia. Russia has not seemed to care much for it in its conflicts. It does not even seem to have a significant meaning in the history of conflict in Europe, nor even in the Middle East.

Is it something to be considered for some conflicts, but not in others? If so- why so and where so?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

GregF specializes in lying, even when it serves no real purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:49 PM

The Israeli Defense Forces photograph and then attack Hamas gunmen firing through an apartment building's windows.


http://finance.yahoo.com/video/hamas-gunmen-firing-windows-home-193000803.html



And how many Palestinian civilians are still in that building, whose bodies will be used by Hamas for political purposes?




I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM

"Not so, BSB - I don't support the Government of Israel. FOR THAT MATTER, NEITHER DO I SUPPORT HAMAS (caps for emphasis)."

I sure wouldn't believe that base on your hundreds of posts over the years. Your posts gainsay that comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

GregF,

If Israel did not have the defense system to protect their civilians, Gaza would have been carpet bombed after the first few missiles from there, and the death toll for civilians would have been in the tens of thousands.

It is obvious that that would suit you just fine.




I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM

Israel has means to protect civilians, and uses them.

Yup, BSB- That's why there are 700+ Palestinian civilians & school children dead, and thousands wounded.

God forbid Israel DIDN'T have and use the means to protect civilians, eh? Then someone might get hurt.

YOU have chosen to support those who are trying to kill civilians.

Not so, BSB - I don't support the Government of Israel. For that matter, neither do I support Hamas.

Bruce: Get back on your meds.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM

The IDF targeted sections of the Al-Wafa rehabilitation hospital in Gaza's Shejaiya neighborhood on Wednesday, explaining that the medical facility was being used as a Hamas command center and utilized repeatedly by Islamist gunmen to launch attacks on Israeli forces. It said it had issued repeated warnings to the hospital authorities, told civilians to vacate the premises, and warned the gunmen to stop abusing the medical facility.

"Hamas terrorists have been intentionally abusing the hospital and other international protected symbols to indiscriminately attack Israel and its civilians," said IDF spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner.

The 17 patients who were in the complex were moved to another location last Thursday, the hospital's chief, Basman Alashi, told Haaretz, after the Israeli Air Force carried out an earlier strike at the site.

In a statement the IDF explained that "the hospital grounds and its immediate surroundings have been repeatedly utilized by Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad as a command center, rocket launching site, and a post enabling terrorists to open fire at soldiers."

The IDF noted that it had repeatedly brought the abuse of the hospital grounds to the attention of international organizations and also directly warned the hospital administration and Palestinian officials of the situation.

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM

As for Hamas having the right to self defense, here is what Hamas has to say:

(Hamas chief Khaled Mashaal )
"The rapprochement efforts even involved Meshaal trying to distance Hamas from his previous outspoken support of the Syrian insurgency, arguing that while people "have the right to rise up for their rights," this "must be done through peaceful means." The Syrian rebel coalition known as the Army of Islam responded with disdain: "He who performs jihad out of his office should not offer advice to those in the trenches.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

...& he could never dream of "doing a character assassination", could he?

Why, perish the thought! The very idea!...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:40 AM

Thought, for once in a way [I am no more obliged than anyone else to be entirely consistent] to read Musket's post apostrophising me of 0809am. Dear me, he doesn't like being addressed in the sort of terms he is always aiming at others, does he? Squeal squeal squeal: "you have your own little la la land to begin with, and secondly, it isn't worth it as you can be rather nasty at times. What the fuck my service to the community has to do with anything in this thread is beyond me, unless you are doing a character assassination". Why, oh deary-weary-me, that's me demolished for sure.

And is he really incapable of putting up any post without a "fuck" in it? Just asking out of interest really. Were his Trust reports full of the same? He really is a contemptible little worm, isn't he? What a specimen. And if I want to go on reminding everyone how he boasts of his distinguished career --

--during which I don't suppose he spent his time telling the Trustees in the meetings he chaired what a lot of "thick cunts" they were [he even invented his own abbreviation for Mudcat, "TC", which he expected us all to recognise] --

then I shall do so without the leave of him, entirely confident in my assessment that it is his own MO that has brought such reminders & denunciations on himself.

And if he doesn't like it -- well, oh-deary-weary-me again, he can just his·fave·word off!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM

Apparently you're unaware,Schmeg, of the fact that Hamas sites its missiles in Mosques, schools, hospitals and residential areas making them all legitimate targets according to the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

GregF

Which proves the point- Hamas has invested only in means to kill civilians, and uses them.

Hamas has chosen to use construction material to make shelters for their (illegal) weapons.




Israel has means to protect civilians, and uses them.

Israel has chosen to use construction material to make shelters for their civilian population.






YOU have chosen to support those who are trying to kill civilians.

Many here have chosen to support those who are trying to protect civilians. YOU are certainly NOT one of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

Musket posted this on the wrong thread.
To then blame the dead men, women and children caught up in it for not doing as one side tells them rather than the other is beyond the bounds of decency.

As usual you attack what no-one has said because you are incapable of challenging what is actually said.

The Palestinian people of Gaza are helpless victims.
The Israelis tell them where it is dangerous to stay.
Hamas tells them to stay anyway.
What can they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM

Apparently Keith, you're unaware that the Palestinians don't HAVE an anti-missle system - just dead kids,thousands of wounded, destroyed Mosques, blown-up hospitals, schools & such like.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM

I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:17 AM

No, there has never been such an effective anti-missile system.
Some always get through though.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:11 AM

Israel uses its missiles to protect citizens

Jeez, Boo - then they're pretty inept with the shitty job they're doing!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:02 AM

Musket, I sense a campaign of lies based on the false premise that we have a mutual aquantance and may have met.
If that is your plan I call you on it now.
You are a liar and can not substantiate this latest lie any more than previous lies.

Jim, that was not a "report" it was "Msyi -Soufan Opinion"

We agree that Palestinians and Israelis have a right to self defence.
We agree that the rocket attacks are unacceptable.
We agree that revenge is unacceptable.
Is any action against the rockets acceptable, or does the illegal siting deprive Israel of that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

Not enough dead Jews to make you happy Schmeg? You want to know the reason for those numbers?

Israel uses its missiles to protect citizens, whereas Hamas uses citizens to protect missiles.

There you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

By mid-day Wednesday, the Palestinian death toll stood at 657, most of them civilians.

Two Israeli civilians have also died in the 15-day fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

Another aspect of the war to be ignored - FRim this morning's Irish Times:

OFFENSIVE SPARKS CHAIN REACTION AMONG ISRAELI ARABS IN THE GALILEE.
In Haifa

Current violence has turned spotlight on to Israel's largest minority.
Madj Kayyal - self-confident, purposeful, brimming with energy - has the air of a man who feels he's part of something big.
Over coffee on a hot summer's morning in Haifa, in northern Israel, the 23-year-old holds forth enthusiastically about how his generation has turned its back on political par¬ties, with their hierarchies and compromises, and fashioned a newer, more fluid form of political activism dominated by smaller networks linked by social media,
"There is a big change happening," he says. "There are internal changes in Arab society and the political movement here, and in the way people are organising."
Kayyal's cause is that of Palestinians in Israel. Comprising more than 20 per cent of the Israeli population, Arabs are the Jewish state's largest minority and their position goes to the heart of some of the country's biggest social debates. But, according to Kayyal, the younger generation haven't merely embraced new ways of doing politics. They also want more than their parents did.
"In the 1990s it was a revolutionary thing to say 'I am Palestinian' or hold the Palestinian flag. It was a big issue to declare your identity," he says. "The attitude now is to put identity into action. In the 1990s, the action was to declare solidarity - to say, 'We are Palestinian and we support Gaza.' In 2014, the youth movement doesn't say, 'We want to declare our anger.' It says, 'We want to change the law.' And how are we going to do that? By taking to the streets."
The descendants of 160,000 Palestinian Arabs who remained on their land when Israel was established in 1948, the Arabs in Israel have been under the spotlight in recent weeks as the conflict in Gaza has escalated into the deadliest confrontation here in a decade.
It was not in the West Bank but in the Arab towns of the Galilee, in the north of Israel, that some of the biggest demonstrations broke out earlier this month after a 16-year-old boy, Muhammad Abu Khdeir, was abducted and killed near Jerusalem in what the Israeli authorities say was a racist revenge at¬tack following the killing of three Jewish teenagers.

STREET PROTESTS
Those incidents were part of the sequence of events that spiralled into the Gaza war. And as battles have raged in Gaza, the Arab communities of northern Israel have continued to take to the streets. On Monday hundreds of protesters clashed with police in Nazareth, Israel's largest Arab city, during a 3,000-strong protest against the military strikes on Gaza.
Israel's Arab minority, large¬ly concentrated in the towns and cities of the Galilee, occupies an ambiguous space in the country's political and social map. They have Israeli pass¬ports, attend Israeli schools and universities and vote in Israeli elections. According to prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu, they enjoy full civil rights.
Yet this is only part of the story. Half of families below the poverty line in Israel are Arab, even though the Arab community accounts for just one fifth of the population. Two-thirds of the children defined as suffering from malnutrition in 2010 in Israel were Palestinians. Schools are segregated.
A number of Arab politicians are members of the Knesset but even the Israeli foreign ministry, on its website, observes that the Arab community is "a politically peripheral group in a highly centralised state", an Ar¬abic-speaking minority in a He¬brew-speaking state, and "essentially non-assimilating".
Since Israel's establishment in 1948, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory military service out of consideration for their family, religious and cultural affiliations with the Arab world "as well as concern over possible dual loyalties", as the ministry puts it. There are just 2,200 Muslims in Israel's security services, which includes the police and prison staff.
As individuals, many Palestinians have achieved success in the Jewish state as judges, politicians, doctors, writers, broadcasters and academics. The number in the civil service is growing. Yet, within the com¬munity, there is deep-seated anger about harassment and discrimination, and what is seen as an attempt in recent years to amend the laws to weaken their rights.
Grievances include a law of loyalty which requires citizens to express full recognition of Israel as a Jewish and Zionist state; the right of communities in Jewish suburbia not to accept Palestinians as residents; and the right of the state to discriminate by law against Arabs in the privatisation of lands.
"[Foreign minister] Avigdor Lieberman's election slogan was that the problem is not the West Bank and the settlements, the problem is the Palestinians inside Israel," says Hassan Jaba-reen, director of Adalah, a Haifa-based legal centre.

INFERIOR STATUS
"Emphasising the Jewish character of the Israeli state is main¬ly targeting the citizenship status of the Palestinians in Israel, giving them secondary and inferior status and portraying their existence as a problem."
The killing of Muhammad Abu Khdeir was the "trigger" for protests in the Galilee, says Mohammed Zeidan of the Arab Association for Human Rights in Nazareth, but their deeper cause was a sense of anger after years of discrimination and an increasingly hostile climate -compounded by a sense that the peace process had been buried and the international community had lost interest.
In Haifa, a relatively prosperous port to wn with a mixed population, social integration is "non-existent", says Nadim Nashif, who runs Baladna, an educational organisation for young Palestinians in the town.
Jews and Arabs work along¬side each other, they buy and sell to each other, but mixed marriages are rare and the communities live in different areas, maintaining merely "the minimum [contact] needed in order to have some kind of normality".. In Nazareth, about an] hour's drive from Haifa, this division is visible. There are two cities: crowded and run-down old Nazareth, where the Arab majority lives, and Nazareth II-lit, or upper Nazareth, a hilltop development where the Jewish population (and increasing numbers of well-to-do Arabs) can enjoy landscaped public spaces, low crime and a fancy new shopping centre.
When standing for election last year, the mayor of Nazareth Illit said he would "rather cut off my right arm" than build an Arab school in the district.

'GLASSWALL'
"You think we are living together," Zeidan says, sitting in his office on a bustling shopping street in lower Nazareth. "But if you look closely, you will see that there is a glass wall that separates the two communities."
There's not much enthusiasm for the two-state solution in the Galilee, where the benefit to Palestinians could be relative¬ly limited. The problem, Nashif argues, is the idea of a state built explicitly for one group.
"If tomorrow a Jewish per¬son from New York takes a plane and comes here, he has much more rights than I do," he said. "On the other hand, it's also time for Palestinians to recognise that there are Jewish people here and they probably will stay here, so you cannot have a Palestinian state unless you want to have a tiny space in the West Bank."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM

If you don't read what I put Michael, stop reading it then. It isn't aimed at you anyway. it is about getting people to see reason and to be honest, you have your own little la la land to begin with, and secondly, it isn't worth it as you can be rather nasty at times.

What the fuck my service to the community has to do with anything in this thread is beyond me, unless you are doing a character assassination. I haven't "worked" for over 11 years now, and when I did, visits to Israel and Palestine were frequent diary dates, hence my interest in this awful dog fight between two sets of terrorists.

Keith has shown his true colours on this thread too, and it ain't nice. It appears I have met him. Can't remember but I am sure he didn't come over as odious as he does on these threads. I remember those I wish to avoid in the future. You can't come out with what he does and not expect people to question the person behind such awful things. It's a bit like that other bigot Akenaton earlier today talking about brotherhood and inclusiveness, but not for gay men as they spread disease.

Mudcat certainly seems to be bait for internet weirdos....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM

"We're officially through the looking glass here with rockets and United Nations Relief and Works Agency schools in Gaza. For the second time in a week, the United Nations agency disclosed that rockets were discovered in one of their vacant schools. From the U.N.R.W.A. statement:

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets.

This time, though, it was a little bit different. The rockets were being stored in a facility within close proximity of roughly 3,000 displaced Palestinians.

The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons.
If you're looking to confirm the oft-repeated Israeli narrative that Hamas and terrorist groups in Gaza endanger Gazans by hiding weapons among the civilian population, then this episode is your smoking missile. Throw in a second incident involving a United Nations agency that is criticized by Israel for its seeming bias and you've got absurdity that would make Samuel Beckett blush.

As the Israeli Foreign Ministry told The Times of Israel:

How many more schools will have to be abused by Hamas missile squads before the international community will intervene. How many times can it turn its head the other way and pretend that it just doesn't see?"

As we noted yesterday, U.N.R.W.A. came under fire last week not only after rockets were discovered in a vacant school, but also as its critics accused the agency of turning the rockets over to "local authorities," which in Hamas-run Gaza, could mean the rockets went right back into circulation."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:05 AM

The author of this piece addresses some of your questions Keith and comes up with the correct answer:

'We can say that there is a principle worth fighting and dying for: Civilians cannot be used to make just wars impossible and morality will not be used as a tool to disarm. And once we have that principle, the proportionality calculation changes. The deaths of innocents are not simply outweighed by Israelis' right to live without daily rockets and terrorists tunneling into a kibbutz playground; but by the defense of a world in which terrorists cannot use morality to achieve victory over those who try to fight morally. It is the protection of that world, one in which moral soldiers still have a fighting chance, that justifies Israel's operations against Hamas today. And it is that greater cause that decisively outweighs the terrible toll in innocent life.'

New Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

More from The Irish Times for you to ignore, as you have ignored every other erport of what is happeing to the Palestinian people, including the destruction of hospitals, the killing of pateints and the use of horrific anti-personell eapns in civilian areas.
Jim Carroll

IS A WAR CRIME TO TARGET DENSELY PACKED GAZA HOMES
Msyi -Soufan]
Opinion

THE 'GAZA DOCTRINE' OF COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT AND DELIBERATELY SPREADING TERROR AMONG CIVILIANS IS ILLEGAL

Once again the Gaza Strip is subject to intense attack from Israeli forces. As of yesterday the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights has documented 593 killed, among them 483 civilians -151 children, 82 women - and 3,197 injured. Among the injured are 926 children and 641 women, although this does not include the figures for the border areas or the Sheajeia area.
Once again it is the civilian population which is targeted, deliberately brought into the eye of the storm.
Everyone in the Gaza Strip is exhausted, worried and terrified. This is as Israel intended. We believe that Israel is deploying the '"Gaza doctrine", a policy with its roots in the Dahiya doctrine first wit¬nessed in the 2006 Lebanon war, and subsequently refined in the Gaza Strip.
The purpose of the Gaza doctrine is straightforward: disproportionate force is used to cause terror among the civilian population to exert political pressure on the authorities in Gaza.
This policy of collective punishment, of deliberately causing terror, is unequivocal¬ly illegal but it is all too real.
This policy is evident in the intense bombardment of the Gaza Strip that preceded the start of the current offensive. For two weeks following the tragic kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank, open areas in the Gaza Strip were subject to intense bombardment. There is no military advantage to be acquired from the targeting of empty fields or desolate places. The purpose was instead to demonstrate Israel's force and presence. We could not sleep. We were constantly shaken by the thundering impact of one-tonne bombs.
However, the most obvious illustration of this policy in practice has been the widespread targeting of the homes of Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters. These homes are typically targeted in two phases whereby a "warning" is issued to the house in question so that it may be evacuat¬ed. This warning takes the form of either a dud missile (termed "roof knocking") or a phone call. The house is then targeted and destroyed, anywhere from five to 15 minutes later or sometimes even longer.
How is the destruction of these homes justified?
The law of armed conflict states that only combatants and military objectives maybe targeted. Civilians and civilian objects are protected from direct attack.

DESTRUCTION
Military objectives are "those objects which by their nature; location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralisation, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage".
The law of armed conflict permits the targeting of combatants. As such, in principle it is possible that a house may be targeted to target the combatants con-tained within (this attack is still subject to the requirement of proportionality). However, Israel has consistently issued warnings before an attack is launched, ensuring that no combatants are present.
The other legal possibility is that a home may also be targeted if it is being used to "make an effective contribution to military action"; ie if it is being used to store weapons or as a base from which attacks are launched. However, in the overwhelming majority of cases documented by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights we have not found evidence that homes have been used to either store weapons (demonstrated by secondary explosions) or as a base from which to launch attacks (determined through interviews with neighbours and witnesses).
If a home does not satisfy these criteria then it is not a military objective and cannot be attacked.
A home cannot qualify as a military objective just because it is owned by a member of Hamas or Islamic Jihad.
Significantly, the law of armed conflict clearly states that "in case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used".

NO MILITARY NECESSITY
Simply put, there is no military necessity justifying the destruction of these homes: it is straightforwardly illegal to target civilian objects.
In fact it is a war crime. Issuing a warning does not change this fact: it remains illegal to attack a home in the absence of military necessity.
The only conclusion we can draw is that these are punitive house demolitions, and it is significant that Israel has resumed its policy of punitive house demolitions in the West Bank in recent weeks.
This is why we are forced to conclude that Israel has revitalised the Dahiya doctrine, and refined it for use in Gaza.
If the objective is to cause terror it is working. The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. These homes that are targeted are not isolated. They are in the middle of densely populated residential areas. Even if.one home is targeted, many others will inevitably be affected. This is why the rate of civilian casualties is so high.
The reason is simple: you cannot drop a one-tonne bomb in a residential area without causing catastrophic damage to any civilians or civilian objects nearby.
In the face of this reality the civilians of Gaza are left without protection. We want to be treated as equals. We want our rights to be respected and protected. We ask that international law be applied equally to Israel and Palestine, to Israelis and Palestinians. The rule of international law must be respected, and all those responsible for violations must be held to account. We demand the rule of law.
Raji Sourani is director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in Gaza. http://www, pchrgaza.org/porta L/en/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:34 AM

Should it not be remembered at all times in this dispute, BTW?, that, after Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip in 2005

(to the disadvantage, it may be recalled, of a considerable demographic from among their own poullation whom they had then to compensate and resettle),

they cleared the way for free elections to be held; and the populace proceeded freely to elect Hamas.

This might be thought an oversimplification of a complex situation [see Wikipedia article on Gaza Strip]; but it is IMO a substantially accurate statement of what, in the first place, brought about the present lamentable situation.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM

Your two final questions have been answered over and over again
The Palestinian people have a right to defend themselves
Hamas is a far less threat to world peace and security as are the serial thugs and mass murderers ruling Israel at the present time, particularly as the latter has nuclear capability
It is a common practice of yours to justify extremism and war cimes and abuses by pointing out somebody "worse".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM

Nobody has ever claimed otherwise - it is a war crime to slaughter hundreds of combatant in retaliation for those rockets

Thank you for those straight answers Jim.
Common ground.

How about my final 2 questions.

Does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals, or do they lose that right because of the further war crime of siting among civilians?

If Hamas is allowed to gain military advantage by committing war crimes, does it set a dangerous precedent for future conflicts?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM

"Does anyone deny that it was wrong to fire rockets at Israel?
Does anyone support Hamas in committing that unequivocal war crime?
If not, does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals"
Nobody has ever claimed otherwise - it is a war crime to slaughter hundreds of combatant in retaliation for those rockets - but the killing began as an act of revenge for the kidnapping of the three Israeli boys anyway - all the earlier victims were non combatants, again, mainly children.
Now, the Israelis are indiscriminately slaughtering the Gazan population - using them as hostages in order (they claim) to stop virtually ineffective rocket attacks.
You are supporting this illegal and inhuman slaughter and you have always supported such slaughter - that is the type of individual you are.
Stop wingeing about being misunderstood - you are an incredibly unpleasant and inhuman individual - live with it.
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times.
NO SAFE PLACE FOR CIVILIANS' IN DENSELY POPULATED ENCLAVES
Aid agencies
Palestinian civilians in densely populated Gaza have no place to hide from Israel's military offensive and children are paying the heaviest price, the United Nations said yesterday.
Israeli military pounded targets across the Gaza Strip, saying no ceasefire was near as US and UN diplomats pursued talks on halting fighting that has claimed more than 600 lives as the conflict entered its third week. "There is literally no safe place for civilians," Jens Laerke, spokesman for the UN office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs, told a news briefing in Geneva.
The death toll is rising in the coastal enclave which has an estimated 4,500 people per square kilometre, he said. The priority for aid agencies was protecting civilians and evacuating and treating the wound¬ed.
FUNDING APPEAL
Nearly 500 homes have been destroyed by Israeli air strikes and 100,000 people have sought shelter in schools of the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), where they need food, wa¬ter and mattresses, he said.
"This number continues to in¬crease by the hour," UNRWA said in a statement yesterday, raising its emergency funding appeal to $115 million (€85 million) from $60 million.
Israel began air strikes on the coastal strip on July 8th, say¬ing it wanted to halt missile fire out of Gaza by Hamas militants, and launched a ground offensive last Thursday.
"The ongoing ground incursion, begun July 18th, has great¬ly accelerated the casualty rate over the past two days, as well as the numbers of displaced families," the World Health Organisation said in a statement. Twenty-nine Israelis, 27 of them soldiers, have died. But the overwhelming majority of people killed so far in the conflict are Palestinians, including 121 Gazan children, said Juliette Touma of the UN Children's Fund (Unicef). More than 900 Palestinian children are also reported to have been injured, according to Unicef.
'TRAUMA'
"According to an assessment by aid workers on the ground at least 107,000 children need psycho-social support for the trau¬ma they are experiencing such as death, injury or loss of their homes," Mr Laerke said.
More than 1.2 million of the 1,8 million people in the enclave have no water or only limited access to water as power net¬works have been damaged or lack fuel for generators, he said.
"In addition, we do have re¬ports of sewage flooding which is a threat to public health," Mr Laerke said.
The UN's World Food Programme has distributed emergency food rations and food vouchers to more than 90,000 people so far, spokeswoman Elisabeth Byrs said. "Ready-to-eat food stocks are running low in Gaza given the conflict has lasted two weeks and the needs are increasing."
Food will be bought locally and also airlifted from Dubai.
The WHO said 18 health facilities in Gaza have been dam¬aged, including three hospitals.
An Israeli tank shell hit the Al- Aqsa hospital in the central Gaza Strip on Monday, killing four people and wounding 16, the health ministry said. - (Reuters)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:26 AM

Didn't read what he said, Keith, because I make it a principle not to read any of his posts: but that's the way that mathering little mother [in the American sense] operates. Best do as I do and pretend so far as possible that the vulgar little former·chairman·of·an·NHS·Trust and distinguished·person·honoured·by·HMQ [can you believe? but he never tires of reminding us!] doesn't exist. So far as I am concerned, solipsistically he doesn't.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM

Sad to see the personal attack in your last post.
You are incapable of normal debate.

You can't challenge anything I say, so you try to discredit me personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:59 AM

Of course I do not defend bombing civilians.
it is a war crime to target them.
I also support Hamas' right to defend its positions militarily.

Now, will you answer any of my questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

"We"?

Err.. Has anybody here supported Hamas? Does anybody deny the Palestinian people the right to defend themselves against Israeli aggression?

Are you still defending bombing civilians?

Two way street. You are a one way Charlie. Try shutting up before you realise how embarrassing for yourself your stupid little comments are.

Disgraceful. I know now why you come out in support of every little bigot on every bigoted subject. If it quacks and all that. A mutual friend said at a club only last week that the Keith of these threads isn't a nice person. Me? I'd be ashamed to say I know him.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM

Does anyone deny that it was wrong to fire rockets at Israel?
Does anyone support Hamas in committing that unequivocal war crime?

If not, does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals, or do they lose that right because of the further war crime of siting among civilians?

If we allow Hamas to gain military advantage by committing war crimes, are we setting a dangerous precedent for future conflicts?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:34 AM

Solutions??

I hear echos,
In a maze of words!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:15 AM

The international community requires Israel to cease killing people.

If what our bloodthirsty wannabe warriors on this thread wish for had any merit, surely the international community, UN, EU, LAN, USA etc would say Israel are OK to carry on?

But they don't.

As of two days ago, Netanyahu risks bring brought to account for war crimes, together with some of the Hamas hierarchy.

You will find that no respectable commentator sides with one set of criminals against the other with so much enthusiasm as the more repugnant people posting here.

Disagree with their disgusting agenda and they say you like to see dead bodies, or are anti Semitic. They seem to be about as low as you can get.

Good job nobody seems to be supporting them then.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:59 AM

"we all know what those Jews are like, don't we?"
Now you are claiming that it is the Jews that have murdered the hundreds of men, women and children civilians in Gaza, used flechette bombs on them, destroyed their houses, schools, medical centres, and left thousands of them homeless and without adequate medical support.
Do you really hate Jews that much Booboo - get help!
"When the rockets are blown up, THEIR shrapnel will kill the local civilian, not the Israeli bomb"
And have killed eactly how many people Brucie, compared to the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians going on at present - get real, this "defence" crap has been exposed as the farce it always was.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM

And who sez they are " being used for military purposes"?

Israel.


Oh yeah right Schmeg, Israel, and we all know what those Jews are like, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 09:06 PM

On Tuesday, a U.N. delegation led by secretary General Ban Ki-moon met with Israel's leaders, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

At the visit, Netanyahu showed the Secretary evidence of the Hamas rockets that have been raining down from Gaza for the past few weeks.

The Prime Minister also showed detailed photos of the locations in Gaza where Hamas had dug tunnels inside a kindergarten and near a school.

When showing the maps and the tunnels, Netanyahu explained:

"The international community has pressed us to give cement to Gaza to build schools, hospitals and homes. And now we see what has happened to those deliveries of cement. They have not been used to build kindergartens but to build a tunnel that penetrates our territory so that Hamas can blow up our kindergartens and murder our children."

Netanyahu also gave an impromptu address to a group described by the Prime Minister's Twitter page as "ambassadors." In the brief statement, the Prime Minister delivered a clear warning to the rest of the world about radical Islam.

    "I ask not only for your support, I ask for your moral stance. I ask you to support Israel's right to defend itself, and not to sanctify the idea that these terrorists can attack a beleaguered democracy, can rocket our cities, can target millions of our people, can hide among their civilians, and get away with it. Because if they can, you're next."

    "And what message does it send? To Al-Queda, to Boko-Haram, to Hezbollah, to ISIS, what does it send? What kind of message does it send? What kind of moral message does it send?" he asked emphatically. "When Israel is being condemned for doing what any democracy would legitimately do to defend itself."

    "I ask you to stand with Israel because it is right. Because it is our right to defend ourselves and it is our right to exercise that right."


Read more at http://www.westernjournalism.com/watch-israeli-prime-minister-issues-dire-warning-world/#CvQ6ubZxE0Hj9IxH.99

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:39 PM

Israel is within its rights to target anything being used for military purposes.

And who sez they are " being used for military purposes"?

Israel.

Get a fuckin' clue, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:23 PM

Under the rules of the Geneva Convention Israel is within its rights to target anything being used for military purposes. The only party in this set to that is in contravention of the Geneva Convention is Hamas. I must have missed your posts railing against that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM

Wise words from a wise man:

"Gaza could have become a showcase of Arab enlightenment and enterprise after Israel withdrew from the territory in 2005.

It could also have become a tourism haven and a crucible for learning and arts, science and technology.

Instead, Gaza has become a one-party Islamic dictatorship under Hamas, dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel."


"When Palestinians stop chanting for the death of Jews and Israel, and start working to secure their own state, they will achieve it.

Palestinians have demonstrated courage and perseverance. What they need now, is wisdom."

Stop the Jew-hatred​ and build Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:06 PM

Ambulances are not supposed to be used for terrorist purposes. But just as they did in previous conflicts with Israel, Hamas is using medical vehicles for moving their terrorists from one place to another. In the video above, released by the IDF Tuesday morning, an ambulance picks up two Hamas members and speeds off.

Hamas Terrorists Caught Using An Ambulance To Travel In Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:42 PM

Breaking News: Ya just gotta love them Israelis - shooting at ambulances & fuck the Geneva Convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:09 PM

I seem to have precipitated another bout of Serial Postarrhoea fro BB- for which I apologize to all & sundry..

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:37 PM

Hillary Clinton defends Israel on Gaza

"Because of the actions by Hamas, first to rain rockets onto Israel, Israel being provoked — because I do think that was part of the Hamas calculation, to provoke Israel to respond, to defend itself, which any nation has to do if you are under attack like that, and then we see the unfortunate effects of any conflict with innocent people being caught in the crossfires."

Politico

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:34 PM

'The union's 28 foreign ministers issued a joint statement after a meeting of the European Council, calling for an end to Hamas rocket attacks and an immediate ceasefire.

"The EU calls on Hamas to immediately put an end to these acts and to renounce violence. All terrorist groups in Gaza must disarm," it said in a statement.

It also condemned the rocket fire at Israel from the Gaza Strip as "criminal and unjustifiable acts," but said Israel must do more to prevent civilian casualties.

"While recognizing Israel's legitimate right to defend itself against any attacks, the EU underlines that the Israeli military operation must be proportionate and in line with international humanitarian law," it said.

The statement came as the Israeli and Palestinian death tolls climbed steadily, with some 30 Israelis killed since the operation began, and more than 600 Palestinians, many of them civilians.

The EU, which is often stridently critical of Israeli policies, also decried "calls on the civilian population of Gaza to provide themselves as human shields."

It said it was "extremely concerned" about the situation, and reiterated its call for an immediate ceasefire.

The EU also appealed for the open of crossings to transfer humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip, and emphasized that the current campaign pointed to "the unsustainable nature of the status quo" in the coastal enclave.

Earlier in the day, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon also condemned Hamas rocket fire and called on the group to stop using civilian sites for military purposes. He also called for a ceasefire."






I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:27 PM

In a rather surprising development, the EU actually "gets it."

EU calls on Hamas, Islamic Jihad to disarm
28-country bloc defends Israel's right to fight, says indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza is 'criminal and unjustifiable'

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

Since the Hamas rockets are antipersonnel weapons, designed to kill as many as possible, unlike the high explosive Israeli bombs that destroy buildings and rocket launchers.

When the rockets are blown up, THEIR shrapnel will kill the local civilian, not the Israeli bombs.

I know, YOUR solution is to have Hamas launch them at Israel and kill Israeli civilians.

You should win some sort of humanitarian award- say a war crimes trial for what you support.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:20 PM

GregF,

"The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons,""


So when the Israelis legitimately blow the EMPTY school up, you will get all the Palestinian civilian casualties that your (very) little heart desirers.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-hEbpow5WE

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM

VACANT school, Boo- not one (or a hospital) full of kids.

Time for you to go over to Gaza personally and report first-hand instead of your relentless cut&pastes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM

GregF WANTS to have Palestinian civilians killled…


"As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff withdrew from the area.

The discovery came after Israel Defense Forces (IDF) accused Hamas of using the Gaza City neighborhood of Shijaiyeh as "fortress for its weapons," according to The Algemeiner.

The IDF released aerial photos Sunday of rocket launch sites inside Shijaiyeh. The pictures claimed Hamas launched rockets from inside and around a mosque, a hospital, a children's playground and a cemetery.

The IDF also said the neighborhood is "saturated with Hamas observation points and is home to a vast network of tunnels used for attacking Israel."

On Monday, the IDF released a video of rocket launchers found next to an agricultural school in Beit Hanoun. Some of the rockets were still in the launchers, ready to be fired."




"In the second case in a week, the UN Agency responsible for Palestinians admitted that its staff had discovered rockets hidden in their schools in the Gaza Strip.

"Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East), discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the agency said in a statement Tuesday evening.

"As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets. The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons," the organization said.

UNRWA said it "strongly and unequivocally condemns the group or groups responsible for this flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law," but did not name any Palestinian entities, like Hamas, which rules the coastal enclave.

"The Agency immediately informed the relevant parties and is pursuing all possible measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA will launch a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident," the agency said.

The statement is almost identical to one released after the last hidden rockets case, when the organization found 20 rockets in another Gaza educational facility on July 16th, in the midst of fighting in Operation Protective Edge.

A day later, Israel's UN Ambassador said he was certain that more such facilities housed Hamas weaponry.

"Yesterday, UNRWA admitted that it mysteriously found 20 missiles in one of its schools," Ambassador Ron Prosor said on Friday in an emergency Security Council session on Gaza.

"I'm sure that if UNRWA takes the time to check its other facilities, it will discover that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Hamas is using UN facilities to commit a double war crime by targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind Palestinian civilians.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:10 PM

For second time, rockets found at UN school in Gaza

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the organization said in a statement issued Tuesday. "As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets. The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons."

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM

Killing the kids is just a prophylactic against future conflict, eh?

Absolutely. Boo, BB & FWK are chanelling Oliver Cromwell: "Nits make lice".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 02:54 PM

Hey useful idiots check out this photo taken by Wall Street Journal reporter Nick Casey: Hamas spokesperson is being photograph in the basement of a hospital, designed to look like a wrecked outdoor neighborhood, in order to appear "authentic".

On Monday, Casey wrote: "You have to wonder [with] the shelling how patients at Shifa hospital feel as Hamas uses it as a safe place to see media."

During the 15 days of Israel's Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has been caught using hospitals, mosques and schools to hide militants and weapons, all of which are contrary to international rules of war created to protect civilians.

The Algemeiner

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

"Palestinian armed groups have continued to fire rockets that are indiscriminate when directed at Israeli population centers, in violation of the laws of war. Ouda Lafi al-Waj, 32, was killed and four of his family members were wounded when a rocket struck their home in an "unrecognized" Bedouin community near the town of Dimona in southern Israel on July 19. A rocket badly wounded two Bedouin girls in another "unrecognized" village on July 17.

On July 16, staff of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) found 20 rockets stored in an empty school building. UNRWA promptly removed them, notified all parties, and condemned the military use of its facilities by an unidentified Palestinian armed group. Palestinian armed groups should end unlawful attacks on Israeli population centers and avoid deploying forces and munitions in areas that unnecessarily place civilians at risk."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

"And of course the claims of the Palestinian Health Authority"
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:34 AM

ain't it just like a bully to blame the victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:20 AM

I like how terrorist sympathisers such as braidedbeardedbruce and Keith A Hole of Hertford love to bandy the two words "Palestinian" and "Hamas" around interchangeably.

There again, anybody who agrees with the international community on the criminal aspects of the Israeli forces are called anti semitic bastards, so not a bit surprised at the bloodthirsty crap that gives such odious people a stiffy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:12 AM

"you also regard every Palestinian (man, woman, and child) as a terrorist."
Israel most certainly does
The casualty total has now exceeded 600
Israel's use of Flechette shells
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM

"which are the only "evidence?" for the above claims and which of course are totally impartial"

And of course the claims of the Palestinian Health Authority that so many of the killed are children or non-combatantsHAS to be believed, right? And that ALL are killed by Israeli fire, and not a single Palestinian antipersonnel rocket that has been seen to fall in Gaza has ever hurt ANYONE?


I guess it is ONLY Israelis that you call liars- after all, Palestinians would never lie to gain a political advantage, right?


What a bush of shit for brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM

Troubadour, are you saying that it is a lie that Hamas fires rockets from sites adjacent to hospitals.
I have to tell you that it has been actually shown on news reports.
Hamas does not even deny operating from civilian areas.
Can you find one single source, from anywhere in the world, that does deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

"you also regard every Palestinian (man, woman, and child) as a terrorist."


Another lie, in addition to your other ones.




MOST Palestinians are not in favor of Hamas rocket attacks.


But those anti-Semites here that blame Israel for having the audacity to survive, and not let itself be wiped out, will continue to equate mass bombardment of civilian areas by Hamas anti-personnel rockets as the same as targeted strikes at military target in self-defense would not allow any Israeli to survive, if they had their way.

Ask Hamas what their goal is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:29 AM

At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority's health minister, who represents the crumbling "unity government" in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.

Washngton Post

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:07 AM

Without even trying to intervene directly in this interminable exchange, would just observe that this swop&swop of copy-pasted reports from publications or communiqués of the two opposing sides, along with assertions that this one is trustworthy but the other is only a bit of the old Mandy R-D, constitutes a never-ending mulberry-bush round which it might be politic to stop going ad ∞, & move on to some other motif before Grim·☠☠·Reaper·☠☠·Esq supervenes...

Just saying

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM

"whose twisted view of reality..."
GRIM REALITY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM

"HAMAS HAS SITED MILITARY INSTALLATIONS IN HOMES< SCHOOLS< AND HOSPITALS >>>WHICH IS A WAR CRIME YOU KEEP SILENT ABOUT<<<"

ACCORDING TO ISRAELI PROPAGANDA SOURCES, which you trust in the almost mindlessly naive fashion in which you also regard every Palestinian (man, woman, and child) as a terrorist.

Killing the kids is just a prophylactic against future conflict, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM

"Hamas's use of civilians and civilian buildings in Gaza as a shield is well known. Media reports tell of rockets being launched from residential buildings and schoolyards, munitions stored in houses, mosques and hospitals, Hamas leaders using civilian homes as command posts, and civilians being encouraged to go up on their roofs as human shields. These reports unfortunately rarely, if ever, mention that such conduct violates the law and, even more important, puts civilians at ever greater risk of death and injury."

Mandy Rice-Davies!!

ISRAELI Media reports, which are the only "evidence?" for the above claims and which of course are totally impartial......and pigs might fly!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:19 PM

bobad: "I doubt you'll receive any cogent replies from those whose twisted view of reality..."

Right now, it appears I won't even get a 'reasonable facsimile'. Maybe if they can't come up with one, it's and indication that they ought to reconsider their biases.
But one of them might come up with something...who knows?... maybe someone on Mudcat has the answer to the centuries old problem...besides humans having the amazing capacity for dumb opinions!
Give it a shot, guys!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 07:04 PM

This comment is from my friend Tarek Fatah, a Muslim who is a tireless campaigner against militant Islam. It succinctly sums up the current situation, IMO.

"The courage and perseverance of the Palestinians cannot be denied, but their rightful quest for statehood has been ruined by an evil Hamas that has turned their national struggle into an Islamic Jihad against Jews that is destined to fail. What a pity. What a waste of precious lives and sacrifices."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:28 PM

I doubt you'll receive any cogent replies from those whose twisted view of reality calls Israel an aggressor and terrorist for having the temerity to defend itself. I'm sure Hitler's supporters also called the forces allied against him aggressors.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 05:53 PM

bobad: "And be legally and morally justified in doing so I might add.

bobad: "What would you expect your country to do, if missiles were blowing up in your neighborhood??"
Any normal country would move to eliminate that threat."

OK..We've heard from one side....how about the other??

BTW, who launched the first strike?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM

Neither do (target civilians) - Hamas hasn't got the wherewithal to do so,

Wrong Jim.
Hamas do.
Those people you call "resistance fighters" are defined as terrorists by Ireland, rest of EU and most democracies precisely because they do.

Their suicide bombers' preferred target is buses, preferably with schoolkids on board.
Their mortars target kibutzes.
Their indiscriminate missiles are aimed at population centres.
That is what they do.

Every dead Palestinian civilian is a propaganda disaster for Israel, so they try hard to avoid them.
Every dead civilian is a propaganda victory for Hamas, so.....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:12 PM

And be legally and morally justified in doing so I might add.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:11 PM

"What would you expect your country to do, if missiles were blowing up in your neighborhood??"

Any normal country would move to eliminate that threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM

"Civilians must NEVER be targeted.
Hamas still does, but Israel does not."
Neither do - Hamas hasn't got the wherewithal to do so, Israel has the firepower not to have to bother.
It's just been announced that Ban Ki-moon had condemned Israeli action and has demanded they cease fire immediately
Sy#tick your war crimes butchery appeasement up your hole, you and your mates
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

OK..We've heard enough of the 'justifications' and 'blame throwing'..Now WHAT WOULD YOU DO?????...as Israel and/or Hamas??

This seems to be a topic that the pro-Hamas/anti-Semitics, are doing their best to avoid and not weigh in on. Anyone can bitch...but how about a solution, or at least a plan, as you see it.....unless all you see fit to do is piss, whine and moan.
I am as anti-war as any of you...but that is not the same as anti defending your country, when facing unprovoked barrages of missiles.
What would you expect your country to do, if missiles were blowing up in your neighborhood??
Answers??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM

BTW, anyone who would equate Israel to Hamas is sick, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

Israel is militarized for the same reason that Hamas is....is that what you're saying? If so then you are the one who is being willfully blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM

Yeah right Greg like there is an equivalency between Israel and Hamas.

There is. That's what you've missed. Or are blind to.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM

"Course they say that, just as the butchers of Lidice had evidence that the townspeople were sheltering the killers of Heydrich - oldest trick in the world"

I could give several examples of lies told against Israel just from memory, but not any examples of israel doing it.
I know all governments do, so they must, but none come to mind.
Help me out Jim.
Can you think of any?

Anyway, it is not just Israel who say that Hamas sites its positions among civilians.
It is an established fact.
UN has criticised them for it, and all news agencies have reported it.


"All Hamas sites are placed among civilians."
So all civilians are legitimate targets - according to you mob (if it were true)"

No Jim.
I am amazed that you find the rules so hard to grasp.
Civilians must NEVER be targeted.
Hamas still does, but Israel does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

"total surrender, no less."

Those are your words but I agree that the ideal solution for the population of Gaza would be the removal of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 12:50 PM

You missed a bit Booboo – total surrender, no less.
Jim Carroll

From the Jerusalem Post
Cabinet ministers: IDF may have to reconquer all or part of Gaza to ensure security
By LAHAV HARKOV 07/21/2014 14:03
Likud Minister Erdan says operation can't be stopped until a demilitarized Gaza is ensured; says Israel may have to reconquer northern Gaza.
Home Front Defense Minister Gilad Erdan Photo: Marc Israel Sellem/The Jerusalem Post
Security Cabinet members said Thursday that the IDF may need to re-conquer all or part of Gaza to ensure Hamas does not continue to attack Israel.
Communications Minister Gilad Erdan said during a visit to Ashkelon Monday that the IDF must continue fighting until it ensures long-term calm.
"We cannot stop the operation while it is still unclear whether the Gaza Strip will be demilitarized or not. If that means the IDF needs to stay in the northern Gaza Strip to ensure quiet, then we will have to reconquer the area near its northern border," Erdan said.
The cabinet member added that he hopes there will not be a ceasefire in the coming days, until the threat of terror tunnels, with which Israel cannot live, is removed.
Strategic Affairs Minister Yuval Steinitz, visited Ashkelon, as well.
"The fighting will continue for a long time and could include more expansions," Steinitz said. "If we need to, we will take over the whole [Gaza] Strip."
Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee chairman Ze'ev Elkin (Likud) said "this is not an easy morning. We are all with the families of the fallen and the injured. This is not a simple operation...This is the nature of war, so we are not surprised."
According to Elkin, Israel had no choice but to start this operation, which he called a war, and that it will save Israeli lives.
"This is the national consensus," he added.
Elkin pointed out that more people will die, but "this is a war on our home."
When visiting injured soldiers, Elkin found that they all called to continue the fighting "all the way."
"We won't stop in the middle and won't allow Hamas to grow stronger from this operation," he stated.
Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee Monday that the IDF will call up reservists and continue fighting until quiet is returned.
Overnight Sunday, more forces entered Gaza to find terrorist tunnels in new areas of the Strip, Ya'alon told MKs, saying it is unfortunate that Hamas terrorists harmed IDF soldiers.
"We are prepared to continue the operation as long as necessary, and, if necessary, to enlist more combat forces from the reserves until we bring quiet to the Gaza Strip," Ya'alon stated.
Ya'alon listed several efforts being made as part of Operation Protective Edge: The central one, to destroy terror tunnels, stopping rocket and missile shootings at different ranges.
The IDF struck over 2,700, including rocket launchers, tunnels and terrorists' homes, he added.
"These efforts are bearing fruit while the Iron Dome almost completely neutralizes attempts to harm Israel's cities," he explained. "It seems that we have found a reasonable response to this threat."
Related articles
Netanyahu: IDF's achievements so far are 'better than expected'
Livni: No policy to reoccupy Gaza, but if rockets don't stop, 'all options on table'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 12:41 PM

Yeah right Greg like there is an equivalency between Israel and Hamas. Are you just being an idiot or is that your hatred on display?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 12:22 PM

Sounds good, Boo - as long as they de-militarize Israel at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

May be the only viable solution that can save lives - if not, Hamas will be obliterated...at a very high human cost.

Mofaz's Gaza 'demilitarization for dollars' plan gains traction
By GIL HOFFMAN
07/21/2014 17:06

Netanyahu, Peres endorse idea that calls for the international community to oversee the demilitarization of the Gaza Strip.

The plan calls for the international community to oversee the demilitarization of the Gaza Strip using the same system that is successfully ridding Syria of chemical weapons. In return, Arab countries and the international community would provide the Palestinian Authority with fifty billion dollars to rehabilitate refugee camps and build the Gaza Strip.

The sum was based on a Canadian assessment of what would be required to build up the Gaza Strip economically. Mofaz, who wrote the plan long before the operation in the Gaza Strip began, said it could take up to six months to negotiate and up to a year to implement.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 11:30 AM

"They say they do have evidence, and their int. is considered world class."
So is their propaganda machinery.
Course they say that, just as the butchers of Lidice had evidence that the townspeople were sheltering the killers of Heydrich - oldest trick in the world
Massacre on boys, it becomes your "Christianity"
"All Hamas sites are placed among civilians."
So all civilians are legitimate targets - according to you mob (if it were true)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

We all also now have direct evidence that they launch missiles from sites adjacent to hospitals.
We have seen it actually happen during interviews!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:51 AM

is targeting hospitals and schools where there is no evidence of resistance fighters

They say they do have evidence, and their int. is considered world class.
We all now have evidence that they use schools Jim.
Are you OK with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

Then Israel is deliberately bombing homes, schools, hospitals and health centres - (you have the figures for the latter three) - which is a war crime.

It would be if it was indiscriminate, but it is not.

Re flechettes.
Most weapons are intended to kill and maim by driving bits of metal at high velocity into and through people.
That is legal and includes flechettes.
Any such weapon can be used illegally.

All Hamas sites are placed among civilians.
That does not mean that Israel is forbidden to defend itself from their illegal and indiscriminate attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

"Assad couldn't begin to compete"
I pointed out that Assad couldn't begin to compete with the decades of preparation Israel have put into their moment of triumph - quite capable of comparing big numbers, thank you.
There is no evidence as to where Hamas has sited its forces - certainly not in hospitals, as the doctor quoted pointed out.
Israel is either guilty of indiscriminate bombing or is targeting hospitals and schools where there is no evidence of resistance fighters - take your pick
"And you complain because not enough Israelis have been killed"
I do not complain of any such thing, I always know when you have run out of ideas by when you resort to openly lying - keep it up Beardie - yet another holocaust denier creeps out of the woodwork.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM

"Not enough dead Israelis for Jim"
No-one should be dead Bruce - you people are the only ones who have dismissed killing here
Hamas is not responsible for the casualties any more than any resistance to terrorism is responsible, from Israeli freedom fighters, to wartime resistance to the Nazis, is responsible.
Hamas is guilty of resisting Israeli terrorism - go and count their victims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:27 AM

Oh dear, another bout of serial postarrhoea.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:07 AM

Jim,

YOU posted: " Assad couldn't begin to compete."


So over 150,000 dead Syrians, mostly civilians is OK by you, while 400 Palestinians is far worse- because YOU blame Israel????



And you complain because not enough Israelis have been killed when they have announced their targets and locations in order to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties? NO other nation has gone so far in trying to reduce civilian casualties- and given the world reaction, I doubt if any will in the future.

That will be the fault of you and those you support, that blame Israel for the human shield set up by Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:01 AM

"Then Israel is deliberately bombing homes, schools, hospitals and health centres - (you have the figures for the latter three) - which is a war crime."


No.

Not a war crime, as has been explained a sufficient number of times that you are proven to be deliberately lying.


ANY MILITARY INSTALLATION IS A LEGAL TARGET.

HAMAS HAS SITED MILITARY INSTALLATIONS IN HOMES< SCHOOLS< AND HOSPITALS >>>WHICH IS A WAR CRIME YOU KEEP SILENT ABOUT<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM

The reason that there were THAT many Israeli casualties is that Israel has ANNOUNCED were they were going to attack, IN AN EFFORT TO REDUCE PALESTINIAN CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. Had they attacked unannounced, the likelihood is that Hamas would not have been able to set up traps head of time, and few Israelis would have been killed- but the PALESTINIAN civilian death toll would have been MUCH higher.

By the way, there were more civilians killed in Syria yesterday that in the last week in Gaza- but you keep strangely quiet about ANY civilian casualties that you cannot (FALSELY) blame on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 09:36 AM

Not enough dead Israelis for Jim….



No admittance that it is HAMAS that has been responsible UNDER THE LAW for those Palestinian civilian casualties- Not to meantion the other was crimes that have been stating they were doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM

"Jim, your flechette link did not work."
Look for another one you moron
"There is no indiscriminate bombing from The Israeli side."
Then Israel is deliberately bombing homes, schools, hospitals and health centres - (you have the figures for the latter three) - which is a war crime.
You have the civilian casualty figures (Israel's "unprecedented" dead amounted to 13 yesterday and 1 earlier, devastating, compared to the handful of Palestinian men women and children slaughtered to date)
You are an appeaser of war crime and terrorism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 09:25 AM

Hamas's use of civilians and civilian buildings in Gaza as a shield is well known. Media reports tell of rockets being launched from residential buildings and schoolyards, munitions stored in houses, mosques and hospitals, Hamas leaders using civilian homes as command posts, and civilians being encouraged to go up on their roofs as human shields. These reports unfortunately rarely, if ever, mention that such conduct violates the law and, even more important, puts civilians at ever greater risk of death and injury.

Using human shields is not a romanticized effort at neighborhood defense — it is a war crime. Using hospitals as munitions depots or sites for rocket launchers endangers every civilian who needs medical treatment, because once the hospital is used for military purposes, it loses its protection from attack. Using houses for all manner of military activity amounts to using the civilian population as a shield and risks the life of every civilian in the neighborhood. This conduct demonstrates that Hamas not only views every civilian and every city in Israel as a target — which is wholly illegal — but that it also views every civilian and every neighborhood in Gaza as an expendable pawn in a propaganda war, a tragic and equally illegal approach."


Laurie R.Blank is clinical professor of law and director of the International Humanitarian Law Clinic at the Emory University School of Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM

As ever Musket, you attack me for things I never have and never would say.

It is a war crime for fighters to operate close to such structures without first evacuating them.
It is not illegal to engage such war criminals even if civilian casualties are likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:58 AM

Any chance of shutting up in the name of decency yet?

The international community has told Israel to stop their terrorist actions.

By the way Keith. Saying that bombing a hospital is ok because Hamas had soldiers nearby is beneath even your low level of morality. Wannabe soldiers seem to he about the most repugnant observers of conflict as it is. You really are showing a side I used to laugh at but the laughter is getting rather hollow now.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:48 AM

Jim, your flechette link did not work.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:44 AM

There is no indiscriminate bombing from The Israeli side.
That would be a war crime.
It is what Hamas does.

The Al Wafa Hospital is in Shajayea.
That is now a battlefield because that is where Hamas is.
Of course it had to be evacuated.
It should have been done days before when the advance warnings began.

Those warnings should have prevented any single civilian casualty.
That was what Israel wanted, but not what Hamas wanted.

Because of those warnings, Hamas was ready and waiting for IDF in well prepared ambush positions.
That is why IDF are suffering an unprecedented rate of casualties.
A sacrifice to try and save Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:30 AM

Israel has not only the right but the obligation to protect its civilians from remorseless rocket attacks. Hamas, which took power in Gaza seven years ago, has been the instrument of that terror. The deaths of Palestinians, many of them children, are the direct and predictable outcome of Hamas's tactics and its use of civilians as, in effect, human shields. Instead of providing good governance and economic development, anticipating statehood, Hamas practises theocratic thuggery. Palestinians are paying an unconscionable price.

The Sunday Times

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM

"Hamas deliberately puts its citizens in harms way in order to score propaganda points"
No it does not - it fights from among the people under attack
What the **** do you expect them to do Booboo set up in the desert, so the Israeli thugs can drop a bomb on them, then get on with its slaughter of civilians?
Feckin eejit - you really are a 'bear of very little brain'.
Both Israel and Hamas have been accused in the past of using 'human shield' - there has never been a question of this happening here, other than in accusations by the Israeli State terrorists and their supporters to justify this bloody carnage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

First it was rubbish that hospitals are being destroyed,
Then it moved on to hospitals are being destroyed after the patients have been ten minutes to clear the buildings - an that's apparently acceptable,
Now we're back to
"Hamas deliberately puts its citizens in harms way in order to score propaganda points. "one hospital had been reduced to rubble there would be hundreds of casualties and every news agency would make it their lead story."
Gaza in being shelled and bombarded indiscrimin
ately - yesterday was the worst.
Palestinian casualties numbered 62 dead, and 400 wounded, among te dfead were 17 children, 14 women and 4 elderly.
The area has been declared a 'humanitarian crisis', with 80,000 people in 61 shelters.
Ad you piss about with "it couldn't have happened because it hasn't been reported" and such shit - what kind of a 'Christian' are you that minimises such inhuman slaughter, (and what kind of appeasing moron defends you with word-games about sayings like "suffer the children").
No comment on 'flechette' weapons yet, from any of you - now there is a surprise   
Probably allowed by some war convention or other, consequences be damned - except it isn't - not used in this way.
This sort of thin certainly brings them scurrying out of the woodwork
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 07:11 AM

Hamas deliberately puts its citizens in harms way in order to score propaganda points.

Israel sets up a field hospital to treat those injured civilians.

They even saved the life of a Hamas terrorist....because they are human and humane.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM

Amnesty today.
"When the al-Wafa rehabilitative hospital in Shuja'iyyeh came under fire for a second time on 17 July, staff were forced to evacuate all the patients, reportedly under fire, and then the hospital was destroyed. "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:58 AM

Al Wafa Hospital has been partly destroyed, with few casualties because the patients were moved out.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM

Jim, if one hospital had been reduced to rubble there would be hundreds of casualties and every news agency would make it their lead story.
It has not happened once, never mind three times.
You are losing touch with any sane reality.

"Civilian deaths harm Israel and help Hamas."
They do neither, you stupid little propaganda spouter - Israel doesn't give a fuck and Hamas loses support of the people.

If Israel could destroy the missiles and tunnels without hurting anyone, they would not be under massive US and international pressure to hold back and let Hamas get on with it.

If they are forced to stop, Hamas will have won.
Civilian deaths hurt Israel, and they sacrifice their own soldiers by giving warnings to evacuate.
Civilian deaths help Hamas, and they prevent the civilians from escaping.

"Indiscriminate bombing" in densely populated cities would cause tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths.
It is not happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:38 AM

"All often minutes"
Should read "all of ten minutes" before 'Terrytoon the Typo Scorer' wakes from his slumber with his usual cries of triumph.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM

"Hospitals have been hit because Hamas sites positions in and near them."
Indiscriminate bombing tends to have this effect.
"No hospital has been reduced to rubble."
Three hospitals destroyed suggests that they could well have been
You have evidence for your claim - the Israelis told you none have,no doubt!
"Civilian deaths harm Israel and help Hamas."
They do neither, you stupid little propaganda spouter - Israel doesn't give a fuck and Hamas loses support of the people.
"All often minutes in the case of the area where the attacked hospital report came from.
"John Osborne "
A pun on 'angry old man' Wesker was the only one I had any real time for - acted in Chicken Soup and Barley once and have just re-seen 'Jerusalem'
It will be interesting to see if the reported use of flechette shells by Israel, anti-personnel missiles which spray thousands of tiny darts down on all below, elicit any comment in the form of justification, or are totally ignored – don't rush – the betting shop's open all day.
FLECHETTE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:55 AM

"a different 'Gentle Jesus' who was said to have 'walked among the poor', and 'blessed the meek' and 'the peacemakers'.
His 'Christianity' puts an entirely new slant on the phrase, 'suffer the children'"
,..,

The one who came to bring, not peace, but a sword, I daresay.

It is a piece of the grossest ignorance to imagine that "suffer the little children to come unto me" has anything to do with undergoing unpleasant experience: "suffer" in this sense and context just means "allow".

What was that most conservative & "reactionary" of playwrights John Osborne doing here, I wonder? Not the sort that Mr Carroll would usually appeal to for political or emotional support, I should have thought.

I suppose we'll get his usual plea that he got carried away emotionally by the force of his rhetoric, or whatever the usual formulation.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:19 AM

Hospitals have been hit because Hamas sites positions in and near them.
No hospital has been reduced to rubble.

Civilian deaths harm Israel and help Hamas.
Consider the implications of that stark fact.

Israel, in defiance of all military logic, gave prior warning of exactly where and when it was going to act.
Civilians were given safe routes to evacuate by, and Israel negotiated refuges for them with UN.

Hamas told them not to go until too late.
Until many had been killed.
It harms Israel and helps Hamas to have civilians killed, especially children.
Consider the implication.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 03:49 AM

"Civil"???
'There comes a time in all men's souls' when the flow of bile and inhumanity.... to misquote The Kingson Trio.
One minute the destruction of hospitals is:
"make up the ludicrous "hospitals pounded to rubble" invention."
Next minute reduces to:
"Israel could easily reduce all Gaza's hospitals to rubble in just a couple of strikes. It is self evident that they are not trying to"
Now, after "Three hospitals, five health centres and seventy two schools" - silence, not worth a mention, what they deserve, allowed for by the rules of war.... whatever.
At least David Irving made an effort to give a little respectability to his hatred with pseudo-historical research - with this gobshite its just they didn't do it because they said so.
As I said, "Holocaust denier shit!", pure and simple.
Keith more than once has declared himself a Christian, and in the best condescending Christian tradition, informed me that he 'prayed for us' - his regular outpourings of hatred and inhumanity must be have come from a different 'Gentle Jesus' who was said to have 'walked among the poor', and 'blessed the meek' and 'the peacemakers'.
His 'Christianity' puts an entirely new slant on the phrase, 'suffer the children' - god save us all from all such religions.
"so do a lot of people with political persuasions"
Why is it so important with you people to pin a "political persuasion" on those you disagree with - rhetorical question - it saves you the bother of trying to deal with the points they raise.
One of you bent over backwards some time ago to get me to state my political position and allegiances - handy weapon to give to those you disagree with in these arguments.
I have no allegiances - I despise or distrust most politicians, and those I do respect leave me uneasy by their chosen careers, and their exposure to corruption and betrayal.
If anything, inhumanity, injustice and cruelty does it for me every time - enough here for me to end my life an angry old man.
Where's Osborn, Pinter and Wesker when you need them? - have to do with Loach, Dobbs and Plater I suppose - ah well!!   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:41 PM

Well, clearly GFS, more on your & K's side than some others, although, as I never tire of saying, the way Israel has turned out is unhappily not what we hoped and worked for all those days of my far-off youth; & indeed constitutes probably the greatest disappointment of my entire long life.

But, try as I might to "consider all things", you & I clearly have somewhat differing ideas as to what the concept of "civility" subsumes...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:41 PM

Hey man, he believes what he believes....so do a lot of people with political persuasions...but he does post from articles which supports his views, rather than the antics of the wannabe block-headed ideologues with no basis, other than, 'that's the way I think it SHOULD be.
That said, I think that if he ever locked onto the truth about the matter, and put aside the 'blame game', and perceived 'rights or wrongs', he'd be rather outspoken, without the antics, than a lot of other feeble brained people, who don't know 'why' they believe that way, other than it being part of the 'liberal package'!!
I hope in the exchange of info and ideas, a greater understanding comes out of it....BUT...it still would be interesting to hear what would he, or any of the others, would say what they think Israel SHOULD do, not only as the missiles are being launched at them, but in the overall.
Israel is NOT going to just go away, and they are the only solid democracy over there...what do you think they should do?
(NOT a trick question!).

Respectfully to both Keith and Jim!

GfS

P.S. Keith, you and I, are in more agreement about this, as you can tell from prior posts....I just want to be hipped to the 'plan' as alluded to by Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM

All things considered, Yes!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 05:34 PM

"Jim, Though I heartily disagree with you, and I believe your position is mightily flawed, I commend you for keeping your side of the 'debate' civil and to the point"
GFS 0122 PM

"Holocaust denier shit!"
Jim Carroll 0110 PM


"Civil"???

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 03:22 PM

Since July 9, 417 people have been killed in Gaza, among them more than 100 children, and more than 3,000 injured.

What say, Jim, we take up a collection to send FW Keith to Gaza to experience the situation first hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM

"It is self evident that they are not trying to."
Three hospitals, five health centres and seventy two schools makes it quite "self-evident" that they don't give two monkeys who or what they hit - go and count the dead civilians if you have any doubt of this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM

Jim, Israel could easily reduce all Gaza's hospitals to rubble in just a couple of strikes.
It is self evident that they are not trying to.

On two separate occasions I have seen reporters speaking from a hospital suddenly drowned out by the roar of rocket launches.

Thanks for telling us about a "PLO" press conference.
They are not famously reliable you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

The body count is rising.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

"o Hamas is both targeting civilians and Hamas is hiding behind civilians."
Whatever I may think of Hamas - and I've already made my position clear on that one - Hamas is standing between Israel and the Palestinian people - without them, there would be no viable opposition to Israeli State terrorism - set a dog to catch a dog, it would appear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

Jim, Though I heartily disagree with you, and I believe your position is mightily flawed, I commend you for keeping your side of the 'debate' civil and to the point, as far as being on topic!!

that said, consider: ""So Hamas is both targeting civilians and Hamas is hiding behind civilians. That's a double war crime, and therefore all civilian deaths as regrettable as they are fall on their shoulders."

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM

"While the Israeli pilots have mostly targeted residential houses, Gaza's infrastructure and public buildings suffered too. According to figures from a PLO press conference on Tuesday, the partial damage extended to 72 schools, three hospitals and five other health centers, eight ministries and 64 mosques. Three mosques were completely destroyed. -
ISRAELI DESTRUCTION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 01:10 PM

"We could discuss that."
We could - ut you haven't, nor will you.
I was referring to shells being fired at the hospital in question that they went right through it and entered the building next door - photographs available.
I have little doubt that, due to the indiscriminate nature of Israel's assault, there are hospitals, and schools, and medical centres - you name it, now lying in ruins - that's the nature of heavy artillery being used on civilian areas.
Just been looking at television footage of the result of Israel's latest triumphs - children being carried from the rubble of destroyed builldings - must confess - they are too far gone to tell whether they are hospitals or not.
Rational or not to assume tat they are quite possibly hospitals?
Holocaust denier shit!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 12:55 PM

"So Hamas is both targeting civilians and Hamas is hiding behind civilians. That's a double war crime, and therefore all civilian deaths as regrettable as they are fall on their shoulders."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM

U.N ambulance help Hamas terrorists to flee from the IDF

This video is from a previous conflict between #Israel and Hamas.
It shows Hamas #terrorists fleeing the scene of a shootout with #Israeli soldiers in the back of a U.N. ambulance.
This is how "humanitarian" measures are being cynically used to further terrorism in #Gaza!

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

"There is no site that is off limits for Hamas – it is storing its weapons in family homes, launching rockets from mosques and establishing its headquarters in the basement of a Gaza hospital.

Yesterday, UNRWA admitted that it mysteriously found 20 missiles in one of its schools. I'm sure that if UNRWA takes the time to check its other facilities, it will discover that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Hamas is using UN facilities to commit a double war crime by targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind Palestinian civilians.

From the safety of their luxury hotels in Qatar, Hamas leaders like Khaled Mashaal order room service with one hand and order Hamas to use Palestinians as human shields with the other.

But you don't have to take my word for it. The Palestinian delegate to the UN Human Rights Council admitted as much, saying (and I quote): "The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Israel's UN Ambassador Says There Are More Hamas Missiles at UNRWA Facilities

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 12:24 PM

So, are you guys going to come to an agreement whether there is an Egyptian blockade of Gaza or not..or do we just change the subject?
...and about the 'pounding of hospitals to rubble', Shhhh!..If you tell Hamas that Israel won't do that, guess where Hamas will set up it's missiles!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM

Yes Jim.
We could discuss that.
So why make up the ludicrous "hospitals pounded to rubble" invention.

Why don't we all try to be rational and honest?


Musket, you are just throwing insults around.
Will you actually challenge any single thing I have actually said?
Of course not!
You can't, hence the insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:34 AM

Course they haven't Keith - if you (and Israel say so - if they aren't rubble yet, it's not for the want of trying on Israel's part.
How about your responding to Israel's deliberatly attacking a hospital by giving the staff ten minutes to evacuate the patients?
Didn't do it (again), huh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:33 AM

"We"

You know, some people should care for the company they keep.

And be prepared to have a good shower afterwards, scabbing away at the stains such associations can leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:23 AM

hospitals they are demanding be evacuated before pounding them to rubble.

None have been Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:20 AM

So, is there an Egyptian blockade of Gaza or not?
I provided Guardian quoting both UN and Hamas saying there is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:11 AM

"That is a blockade and everyone understands that except you Steve, and Jim Carroll."
Yeah - you've already told us you are infallible in these matters - perhaps you might like to get your head around 'ludicrous'
"We support Israel's right to defend itself."
Against all those threatening non-combatants it is in the process of slaughtering, no doubt - they must believe they are hiding in the hospitals they are demanding be evacuated before pounding them to rubble.
Up our side!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

"That is a blockade and everyone understands that except you."
Why do you insist telling all of us that we are on our own when we disagree with you - does this not strike even you as somewhat ludicrous?

I do not Jim.
I told Steve that he alone denied the long-standing Egyptian blockade of Gaza.

If you are equally ignorant I will rephrase.

That is a blockade and everyone understands that except you Steve, and Jim Carroll.

Happy now Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM

We support Israel's right to defend itself....you apparently do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:13 AM

"As an Iranian-Canadian who has spent years raising awareness of human rights violations "
No-one here has supported the Hamas rockets
You people have consistently supported Israeli brutal and cynical use of them as an excuse to create an apartheid Israeli state.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:12 AM

A United Nations agency that last week found rockets in a Gaza school operating under its auspices has handed that weaponry over to Hamas, Israeli officials said Sunday, accusing the organization of actively helping the terrorist organization potentially attack Israeli civilians

"The rockets were passed on to the government authorities in Gaza, which is Hamas. In other words, UNRWA handed to Hamas rockets that could well be shot at Israel," a senior Israeli official told The Times of Israel.

Read more: UN agency handed rockets back to Hamas, Israel says | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/un-agency-handed-rockets-back-to-hamas-israel-says/#ixzz381AomQKi
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:05 AM

"On Sunday morning, a soldier reported that he and other IDF medical staff had saved the life of a Gaza terrorist. Soldier Daniel Albo told Yediot Aharonot, "My team and I saved the life of a terrorist who tried to kill us because we are IDF soldiers and citizens of Israel. We saved him because we are human."

IDF Creates Field Hospital for Injured Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

As an Iranian-Canadian who has spent years raising awareness of human rights violations inside Iran, it grieves me that Tehran's brutal agenda is now playing itself out in Israel and Gaza. Were it not for the Iranian regime's extensive role in laying the foundation for the current war, the past few weeks may have been very different for Israelis and Palestinians. Those of us in the West who care about peace in the Middle East should recognize that Tehran's fingerprints are all over the current round of violence.

The Star.com

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM

"That is a blockade and everyone understands that except you."
Why do you insist telling all of us that we are on our own when we disagree with you - does this not strike even you as somewhat ludicrous?
It probably hasn't escaped the humanitarian side of this argument that you Israeli appeasers have totally ignored the details of what is happening to the Palestinian people at the hands of the Israeli thugs and are choosing to point out what will happen if the Palestinians don't surrender - 'Come out with your hands up and we will spare your lives' - sounds like gloating to me and I wouldn't expect anything else from you.
This conflict is rapidly becoming an extension of the already inhuman Israeli blockade - Assad couldn't begin to compete.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 04:46 AM

Guardian November.
"Gaza becoming uninhabitable as blockade tightens, says UN.
Destruction of smuggling tunnels and renewed ban on import of construction materials have exacerbated humanitarian crisis"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/22/gaza-uninhabitable-blockade-united-nations

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 04:43 AM

Guardian Wednesday.
" angry that it did not deal with some of the group's (Hamas') major demands: a conclusive end of Israel and Egypt's blockade on Gaza,"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/16/egypt-no-negotiations-gaza-ceasefire-israel-hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

Celebrating?
What a sick lie.
No-one on this forum has done that, so why claim it?

Steve, Egypt has closed its border with Gaza, allowing nothing in or out.
That is a blockade and everyone understands that except you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 06:16 PM

So,chaps, if I park my pantechnicon across the mouth of the Channel Tunnel and let the tyres down and throw the keys in La Manche, I'd be "blockading Europe", huh? Jeez, what a bunch of comedians. Israel is blockading Gaza. Egypt has shut down a tunnel or two at one point on the border. Of course, you want Egypt to be blockading Gaza because that would add grist to your pro-Israeli regime mill. Good luck. But do take a good look at the regime in Egypt before you call them your partners in crime. They're not very nice, what with proposing mass executions and all that. Still, it must feel good to have them on your side, chaps. You suit each other very nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM

I invented nothing Musket.
Tell us specifically what you deny, and I will remind you of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 02:02 PM

Makes about as much sense as your other posts, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM

Ohhh! And there was I, trying to analyse it as a poem! All ready to expound on the politico/poetic significance of the repeated splitting of Gaza by enjambement between its upper case initial and its lower case remainder ~~~

and you went & spoilt it!

Boohoo! Chizz!

☹☹~M~☹☹

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM

Oops sorry - the previous post is a non post, I was just playing around with formatting.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM

a)The conflict between Israel and the G
aza Strip is an "international armed
conflict" for the purposes of international law.
In this respect, the
Commission relies upon decisions of
the Supreme Court of Israel
and
statements by various United Nations
organizations and humanitarian and
human rights organizations.
(b)
Israel's effective control of the G
aza Strip ended when disengagement was
completed in 2005.
In this respect, the Comm
ission relies upon a decision
of the Supreme Court of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM

Woops!
Sorry.

We also see the lefties competing over who hates Israel most.
No matter that they do not know that Egypt blockades Gaza, or think that there are EU "restrictions" and UN "sanctions" against Israel.
Just so long as they REALLY hate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM

Yesterday we had the amusing spectacle of Richard and Musket arguing over who was the most leftie.
Musket claimed he was because he had voted Labour more times.
Richard said he was because he had NOT voted Labour under Blair.

We also see the lefties competing over who hates Israel most.
No matter that they do not know that Egypt blockades Israel, or think that there are EU "restrictions" and UN "sanctions" against it.
Just so long as they REALLY hate it.

That is why discussion of much worse evils, like Caliphates, Putin and Islamism get ignored or converted to more bile against Israel.

Jim, Hamas just blew up a Bedouin camp, killing one and injuring many.
Any outrage from you?
There would be if Israel did such a thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Steve Pshaw: "Incidentally, you blokes talking about your dicks is more enlightening..."

You brought it up...why don't you just start your own thread about your peckers?...You and Musket should have a gay ol' time!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

"Hamas are wrong about many things,"

Finally a post from Shaw that isn't his usual hateful, made up garbage.

I have to agree that Hamas is wrong about many things namely stealing money that is rightfully meant for the people of Gaza and enriching themselves with it and using it to purchase rockets and mortars to terrorize the civilians of Israel with.

They are also wrong about siting those rockets and mortars in schools, hospitals, mosques and civilian areas knowing that innocent people will die when they are attacked so they can then use those deaths as propaganda to demonize Israel.

They are also wrong to encourage Gazans to act a human shields.

Finally, they are wrong to commit themselves to the genocide of a people.

Shaw finally manages to get something right.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:44 AM

If there is no Egyptian blockade, what was the point of the tunnels anyway Steve?
Closing the tunnels was just reinforcing the existing blockade.

How can you have such passionate views on something you know and understand so little about?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:41 AM

More from today's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

'THE ISRELIS DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYBODY'
Ruadhán Mac Cormaic
In Gaza City
The longer diplomacy stalls, the higher the chances that Israel and Hamas will be drawn into a deadly drawn-our war, with civilians – and increasingly children – its greatest victims.

I n the neighbourhood, they used to call Mohammad Al-Bakr "The Prince". The scrawny 11-year-old, the only son of Ramez and Salwa, was in line to take over the fisherman's mantle that had passed down three generations and was now, due to his father's chronic back problems, soon to be his. He was good at school, and much of his free time was spent at the nearby beach, where all the Al-Bakr children swam and played football. When it was busy,
he made some pocket money by selling tea on the beach, and it was his dream one day to open a fish shop.
In a household where money was scarce, where Mohammad had just a single pair of trousers and two T-shirts, already there was talk about him becoming the breadwinner. A life at sea beckoned. "Our kids, their whole world is the water. They live their lives down there," says Samia, the boy's aunt, sitting in a spartan room in the family home. Beside her is Salwa, Mohammad's mother, who is swaying silently, her legs crossed beneath her on the bed. Around them are more than 20 women and children from the extended family, gathered in grief. "I told them not to go, but he insisted," Salwa whispers. "He just wanted to play."
On Wednesday afternoon, Mohammed was among a group of children who were playing on the Gaza city beach when a missile struck a shack on the harbour. The children ran away from the blast towards a hotel beyond some deserted beach cafes, according to witnesses, but within an instant a second missile struck, this one closer to the running children. Four cousins, all under 11, were killed on the beach that afternoon. Four more were injured.
The Al-Bakr family buried their children within hours of their deaths and returned to the family home. But their longest day wasn't over yet. At 5am, when everyone was in bed, the west-facing windows were suddenly blasted in. An Israeli "knock on the door" warning had fallen on the roof of a house across the road. People recognised it immediately, and they were fleeing. The children, screaming and crying, fell over each other in the panic to run down the street. A few minutes later, an Israeli rocket exploded on some open land across the road, leaving a 10-foot crater and causing extensive damage to adjacent homes. "We just stood there in the street," says Samia.

THE TERROR OF DAILY LIFE
Ali Abu Hasira watched it all unfold on the beach that day. He's 42, but he has been fishing here since he was 12, and he knew each of the boys and their family. He points to the spot where the first missile fell, then the second one. He describes how two of the children were flung more than 15 metres in different directions by the force of the blast. "The Israelis don't care about anybody," he says. Around us, the beach is deserted. Normally there would be up to 30 fishermen on foot and more than 100 out at sea. Today there are none." Heart-wrenching stories of the traumas are being inflicted by the latest confrontation between Israel and Hamas have abounded this week. Local health ministry figures show that, of the 260 people who were killed in Gaza, the great majority were civilians and 48 were children. Yet the killings on Gaza beach touched a nerve. Outside the enclave, they drew revulsion. Inside, they seemed somehow to multiply the terror of daily life. If four children playing on a beach could be hit, then anyone could.
Even the smallest decision was freighted with risk. Should you stay in, knowing that residential homes have taken the brunt of the bombardment (sometimes taking neighbours' houses with them) or go out and risk walking down the wrong street at the wrong time?
When 27-year-old Riwaa Bassal opened her Facebook last Saturday night, she read that her younger brother Mohammed had been killed when a bomb hit a building he was walking past in the district of Zeitoun. "My brother was walking in the street," she says, speaking in the classroom of a UN school that has been converted into a shelter for Gazans who left their homes due to heavy bombing. "He wasn't carrying a rocket. He was walking peacefully."

VAST BOMB SITES
There was terror and fear, but boredom too. When a five-hour ceasefire, agreed by Israel and Hamas at the UN's request, came into effect on Thursday morning, people spilled out onto the streets. For 10 days, Gaza had been deserted, the shops closed and cars few and far between. Most people hadn't left their homes. Suddenly the central market was bustling, the traffic jams returned and life took on its old rhythms, however briefly.
As they stocked up on food and other essentials, people admitted that after more than a week of sitting inside waiting for the bombs to fall, they were relieved to be out again; and to catch up with friends and family. "We got bored at home," said Ayman, whose men's clothes shop at the entrance to Zawiya market had opened for the first time in 10 days even though he didn't expect to do any business.
"We're not selling anything," he said, pointing to the huge stock of jeans and shirts he imported, from Turkey in the hope of a busy Eid. "People are only buying food and drink, but we opened so we could be outside and see people."
In normal times, daily life in this crowded, impoverished sliver of land is a struggle. With the bombings, the strip has been left disfigured as well. Families sift through vast bomb sites where their homes once stood. Charred rockets sit in craters at the side of the road. At the overstretched Shifa hospital, there are barely enough spaces in the ramshackle morgue to meet demand. Children in shock - inert, rigid, exuding fear- are a disturbingly common sight.
Yet the real tragedy is that these dystopian scenes, like much else about the latest conflagration, in so many ways recall the events in 2009 and 2012, when Israel and Hamas last confronted one another from either side of the buffer zone. And while both sides will claim to have made short-term gains, few expect the landscape that emerges once the smoke has cleared to be meaningfully different to that of 10 days ago.
Last Sunday night in Tel Aviv, big crowds turned out to watch the World Cup final on big screens in expensive bars and cafes around the city. With its elegant beachfront, its clean, orderly streets and its thriving social scene, Israel's commercial heart felt like a European Mediterranean city that night - and a world away from the chaos just a few hours to the south. But while only one Israeli has been killed by a militant rocket from Gaza (a 37-year-old who was delivering food to Israeli soldiers near the border with Gaza, killed by a fragment of mortar fire) and the Iron Dome missile defence system has succeeded in shielding urban areas, the psychological effect of hearing wailing sirens in public places several times a day weighs heavily on public opinion.
Up to 90 per cent of Israelis, according to opinion polls, support the government's actions in Gaza. Notwithstanding the pressure prime minister Binjamin Netanyahu faces on his right flank, the public is firmly behind him. For Hamas, the conflict brought the risk of huge losses but also some strategic opportunities. Hamas ha' been at a low point recently.
Isolated in the wake of the upheaval in Egypt and the civil war in Syria, and under financial pressure since the closure of Gaza's southern border with Egypt, which deprived it of goods and tax revenues, the organisation recently opted to transfer formal authority over the civic administration in Gaza to the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah. That led to a reconciliation agreement between Hamas and the Palestinian Liberation Organisation on terms that were seen as casting Hamas, the winner of an election in Gaza in 2006, as the weaker partner.
Now, however, it finds itself back in a central role, presenting itself in a defensive posture and enhanced in the eyes of its supporters.
As columnist Chemi Shalev wrote in the liberal Israeli newspaper Haaretz this week, "The Israeli bombing raids on Gaza and the casualties inflicted on its civilian population have cast Hamas once again as the main pillar of resistance against the evil Zionists and placed them in perfect position to play hard to get in the upcoming efforts led by Secretary of State John Kerry to broker a cease fire."
Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority chairman, appears sidelined. On the streets of Gaza this week it was difficult to find anyone who would criticise Hamas, at least in public. "May God protect Hamas," says Ghalia al-Sawar-ka, who left her home in the north of Gaza in the middle of the night after the Israelis dropped leaflets warning of a bombardment in the area. "Without Hamas, we'd be completely lost."
On the ground in Gaza, the situation changes by the hour. Thursday began with a ceasefire and ended with Israel mounting a ground operation that involved tanks, drones, fighter jets, Apache helicopters and naval gunships. So far that operation has been limited. Israeli government ministers have said it is focused on militant tunnels along the border, and an Israel Defence Forces spokesman said it was not aimed at "toppling Hamas".
The widespread belief is that Netanyahu does not want to re-occupy the strip, but Israel may be calculating that by tightening its grip and ensuring Hamas cannot resupply, the militants will be forced to agree to a ceasefire.
Hamas warns that Israel will "pay a heavy price" for the ground invasion and insists it will only agree to a truce if Israel agrees to lift the siege of Gaza and to release the dozens of prisoners freed in the 2011 deal for captured Israel soldier Gilad Shalit, who were rearrested recently in the wake of the killing of three kidnapped Israeli children.
Neither side has an interest in prolonging the war; in that sense, their needs are aligned. For Israel, a full invasion would risk heavy casualties and require a huge long-term investment in the security and development of the strip. Domestic public opinion might baulk at that, while removing Hamas by killing its leaders would run the risk of seeing it replaced with something even more unpalatable to Israel.
On the other side, Hamas also needs the conflict to end. Its arsenal is depleting fast, Gazans are growing impatient and there are signs of divisions between the political and military camps within the organisation.
Both sides need a way out, yet the military momentum is building all the time. The longer diplomacy stalls, the higher the chances that Israel and Hamas will be drawn into a deadly, drawn-out war that both sides have an interest in averting.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:22 AM

Hamas are wrong about many things, minnow. Why don't you just toddle off and see them in person. Oh, and get them to show you the bombed-out homes and the children's graves, so that you can tell them yourself that they killed them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:53 AM

"It is the wrong word to use."

I'll let Hamas know that Steve Shaw says they are using the wrong word - I`m sure the`ll be grateful for learning that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:47 AM

Israel's UN Ambassador Says There Are More Hamas Missiles at UNRWA Facilities
Algemeiner ^ | Friday, July 18, 2014 | Staff

Posted on 7/18/2014, 6:51:37 PM by Star Traveler

A day after UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, admitted that it had discovered 20 Hamas rockets at one of its schools, Israel's UN Ambassador said he was certain that more such facilities housed Hamas weaponry.

"Yesterday, UNRWA admitted that it mysteriously found 20 missiles in one of its schools," Ambassador Ron Prosor said on Friday in an emergency Security Council session on Gaza. "I'm sure that if UNRWA takes the time to check its other facilities, it will discover that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Hamas is using UN facilities to commit a double war crime by targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind Palestinian civilians."

His comments came the morning after Israeli forces entered Gaza in an expansion of Israel's Operation Protective Edge aimed at ending rocket fire against civilians.

In his extensive remarks, outlining Israel's position on the conflict with Hamas, Prosor also said that it was time for the international community to face the consequences of its failed policies regarding the Gaza based terror group.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

Incidentally, you blokes talking about your dicks is more enlightening, more revealing and a damn sight more entertaining than your usual Islamophobic drivel. I'll work on finding some other diversions, I think. Anyone wanna talk man-boobs?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

Closing tunnels at one point on a border is not a blockade. It is the wrong word to use. A blockade means cutting Gaza off from the outside world around all its air, land and sea borders. That what Israel does. Egypt closed some tunnels. Don't believe everything you see in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:12 AM

From the Irish Times this morning
Jim Carroll

WE ARE NOT A MILITARY BUILDING, WE ARE NOT A STRATEGIC BUILDING. WE ARE A HOSPITAL,
Some of the shells penetrated the whole hospital, from one side to another and hit the next building
Ruadhan MacCormaic
in Gaza City
Paralysed patients are carried to safety after a 1O-minute attack warning
"Evacuate," said the voice at the other end the line. It was 8.50pm, just over 90 minutes before Israel would confirm it had launched a ground operation in the Gaza Strip. The hospital was at risk.
Its 17 patients, all profoundly disabled and receiving therapy at this specialised institution facing Gaza's eastern border with Israel, had been kept together on the first floor wards.
Abu Medhat al-Ashi, al-Wafa hospital's executive director, says the shelling began about 10 minutes after the call. "Some of the shells penetrated the whole building, from one side to another and hit the next building. Fire broke out inside, electricity was cut, water was cut off and there was a leak," he says.
All 17 patients are paralysed, so the hospital staff faced a difficult task. They scrambled to track down ambulances from across the beleaguered city; as each vehicle arrived, one-by-one, the medics carried the patients out the door with their sheets. By 11pm the hospital was empty.
Lying in bed at the Sahaba medical complex, a private charity-run clinic that agreed to accommodate the patients, 16-year-old Aya Abdan says she is still afraid when she thinks about the previous night.
She has lost all feeling in her legs as a result of a tumour in her spinal cord. "Glass broke and the hospital was full of dust so you couldn't see anything," she recalls.
Shrapnel damage
After a previous incident in which al-Wafa was hit on Wednesday, the Israel Defence Forces said it had bombed a rocket launcher situated 300m from the hospital and the hospital was damaged by shrapnel.
It said an advance warning was given before the strike was carried out and that it had urged hospital staff to evacuate.
The hospital's director, whose efforts are focused on replenishing the stock of drugs destroyed, is reeling.
"You have seen my patients," he says insistently. "They are in no way a threat to the Israelis. How could they be? We are not a military building, we are not a strategic building. We are a hospital, improving the lives of people in Gaza."
Across town in Shifa hospital, Gaza's largest, the emergency department is calm after one of its busiest nights. All through Thursday night and early yester-day morning, the sky was alight with orange flares as Israel deployed a formidable force of fighter jets, naval ships, Apache helicopters and drones to ease the path for its troops on the ground. According to the local health ministry, more than 20 people died and 250 were injured overnight.
Burial of bodies
Outside the hospital morgue, a ramshackle building that has been in heavy use this week, a crowd has gathered to watch the bodies emerge for burial. Usually it takes four men to lift a corpse, each one covered in a white sheet, and put it into the back seat of a car. One of the bodies is that of Mohammed Ab-del Rahman, who friends say was killed repairing a mobile phone antenna on the roof of a building in Gaza City. They think he was hit by a drone.
Medic Hussein Baraqa is waiting for the next call. His shifts alternate between the ambulance and the emergency room, but admits he feels travelling at night - when roads are deserted - is too dangerous. But he still goes out?
"It's my duty," he shrugs. "I have to."
'The Israelis don't care about anybody': Weekend Review

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM

"Over the past week there are voices coming out of Egypt and some Arab countries"
According to - "Breaking Israeli News (Latest news -biblical perspectives, as supplied by Zionist propaganda site site Gatestone.
The Author is an ex-Muslim converted to supporting Gatestone, to which he is a distinguished fellow.
No agenda there then!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 06:47 AM

Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Sisi has thus far turned down appeals from Palestinians and other Arabs to work toward achieving a new ceasefire between Israel and Hamas


    * Over the past week there are voices coming out of Egypt and some Arab countries — voices that publicly support the Israeli military operation against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

    * They see the atrocities and massacres committed by Islamists on a daily basis in Iraq and Syria and are beginning to ask themselves if these serve the interests of the Arabs and Muslims.

    * "Thank you Netanyahu and may God give us more [people] like you to destroy Hamas!" — Azza Sami of the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram.

    * Isolated and under attack, Hamas now realizes that it has lost the sympathy of many Egyptians and Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 12:47 AM

Steve Pshaw: "I've noticed recently that you haven't posted about your penis size. I wonder why not."

It's not the size, but how you use it...assuming you know how to use it at all!..However, that being said, you sound like that person I mentioned in another thread...."like trying to stuff an oyster into a slot machine!" ....and the more limp it is, the more frantically braggadocios they are about it!.....like your whole rap!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 10:46 PM

Steve Shaw--

I would have responded to you earlier, but when I went to 'submit message' I found I had lost my internet connection. Coming back, now, I see that Guest from Sanity responded much better than I would have; so all I can add is "what he said!" How-some-ever mine was pretty darn good, and I've saved it to notepad for the next time you foam at the mouth when addressing me.

I normally don't speak of my penis size in public, but since you brought it up, I'm not John Holmes size by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm guessing--based on some of your recent screeds--that I'm bigger than your IQ.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:37 PM

"This is the post of someone who has lost the argument!"

I would say that he's lost a lot more than the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM

Steve Pshaw: "Get this into your super-thick, unreconstructed ultra-right backwoodsman skull, John In The Sunset Home. You are on an internet forum. You do not get to dictate, or even suggest, what other forum members choose to post about."...and so on and so forth...blah blah blah..

This is the post of someone who has lost the argument!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:14 PM

Hamas calls Egypt blockade a 'crime against humanity'
By REUTERS
03/18/2014 18:35

GAZA - The Palestinian militant group Hamas on Tuesday called Egypt's curbs on movement through its crossing with the Gaza Strip a "crime against humanity", in an unprecedented rebuke of its Arab neighbor that further frays their worsening ties.

The closures, that Egypt says were introduced because of security concerns, have cut off imports of medicine and aid to the impoverished coastal enclave and prevented travel by thousands of Gazans and patients seeking treatment abroad.

Usually open for four to six days per month, the Rafah crossing has now been shut to normal passenger traffic for 40 straight days - although Egyptian authorities have opened it twice in that period for pilgrims to Mecca.

"Egyptian authorities' insistence on closing the Rafah crossing and tightening the blockade of Gaza ... is a crime against humanity by every criteria and a crime against the Palestinian people," said Fawzi Barhoum, a spokesman for the Islamist movement which rules Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:50 PM

Gaza is not under a blockade by Egypt. And the UN has not endorsed the blockade by Israel of Gaza. If you wish to interpret this situation differently, give us your evidence. Better still, just shut your Islamophobic gob.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:46 PM

Gaza is under a blockade by Israel and Egypt which is deemed legal by the UN.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:34 PM

Nor would Israel continue to allow hundreds of trucks of food and medical aid to enter Gaza even as hundreds of rockets leave Gaza.

"Allow"? So, minnow, you accept then that Gaza is under occupation and, worse, siege? Both illegal, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:30 PM

Get this into your super-thick, unreconstructed ultra-right backwoodsman skull, John In The Sunset Home. You are on an internet forum. You do not get to dictate, or even suggest, what other forum members choose to post about. I will comment on whatever I want to comment about. If you pick up that I have not commented about a particular matter, you can either keep schtum about it (recommended) or bellyache about it and make yourself look like a proper twat. I've noticed recently that you haven't posted about your penis size. I wonder why not. Actually, no I don't. Does that lean to the far right as well? Oh, Jesus. Please don't answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:14 PM

It's just a hunch, but if the Israelis wanted to wipe out as many Palestinians as possible, never mind commit genocide, they probably wouldn't issue warnings to Gazans (by phone and leaflet) to get out of harm's way. Nor would Israel continue to allow hundreds of trucks of food and medical aid to enter Gaza even as hundreds of rockets leave Gaza.

And if Hamas were chiefly concerned with protecting Palestinian lives, it would not implore Gazans to stay in their homes — serving as human shields and inflating the body count as a propaganda prop to increase international pressure on Israel.

One perverse complaint, often subtly echoed in the mainstream media, is that it is somehow unfair that Israelis are not dying, so far, from Gaza rocket strikes. The Israelis have the Iron Dome defense system, which intercepts the rockets aimed at civilians. They also have bomb shelters; the Palestinians do not. They have these things because, as Netanyahu said, Israelis are interested in protecting their citizens.

As Commentary's Jonathan Tobin notes, no one is asking why the Palestinians don't have bomb shelters. The assumption seems to be that the Gazans don't have the wherewithal to build them. This is untrue because they do have bomb shelters — they just reserve them for Hamas's leaders and fighters. Indeed, Hamas has dug thousands of tunnels under Gaza, largely so it can smuggle in, and store, more rockets to fire on Israel. Better that those tunnels were used as shelters for civilians, but that would mean not letting them die for the greater "good."

The Palestinian 'Genocide' Lie

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:46 PM

Any road, I want to start the weekend by turning the thread title on its head, instead of SMALL HOPE for... I'd like to think about the joint Arab-Jewish classes where the kids were interviewed by someone reporting to NPR. The kids covered Arabs, Palestinians, Christians, Muslims and Jews who've been able to get along and their parents have continued to send them to learn together even through recent events.
So there is s*m*a*l*l*H*O*P*E that from a seed of humans seeing other humans AS humans in this period of Ramadan, the Sabbath, and the comparatively low casualty counts so far in Palestine/Israel (as compared to Darfur, as compared to Cairo, Sinai, Baghdad, Damascus, Afghanistan, Pakiston), that something can grow, however stunted at first, and find a trellis.

...after all, even the Federation and the Klingon Empire eventually got along...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:02 PM

Hey! I've got an idea for the 'so-calleds'...try entering a business arrangement..or even a peace negotiation...or for that matter, ANY negotiations, with someone who thinks you don't have a 'right to exist'!!....and then they want to dictate their terms!!

What a bunch of M-O-R-O-N-S!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:33 PM

That article posted 17 Jul 14 - 09:24 PM
How the West Chose War in Gaza

is so artfully one-sided, it makes me question the legitimacy of the organization behind it.

The gist of the Nathan Thrall article bodily inserted into the thread is that Hamas, a terrorist organization which maintains power by violence on its political opponents and the threat of extra-judicial violence on the citizens of Gaza, was experiencing political weakness as a result of their mode of operations, hence sought to maintain their hold on power by seeking a rapprochement with the West Bank government. They got no support from the West because why encourage a bad actor, so they began - acting badly (euphemism for firing hundreds of rockets into civilian territory). But now it's the West's fault!
And no word on how they managed to collect thousands of deadly weapons in the time they were serving as Gaza's 'legitimate government'.

It's so surreal it should be laughable. "It's your fault for not stopping me from killing again!"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:15 PM

Quite possibly - it's a pity they regard anybody who disagrees with their views and ambitions as 'GUILTY'

Again, completely untrue.
As a liberal democracy they have no single view or ambition.
All they want is for the bombardment of their people to stop.
That is a perfectly reasonable aspiration that every country in the world would share if subjected to such a bombardment.

Subject: more to my responsee at 10:AM
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

Musket, it seems my response to you this morning was incomplete. This is what I should have written:

Folk club = sectarian/nationalistic violence. I understand, musket. I understand musket.

If the nuance in punctuation eludes you, I'll post some English primers. Actually, no, I won't.

Also I think you need to learn to read. You said, "John on the sunset coast asked why I hadn't given an opinion on something fuck all to do with this thread..." John has never asked you that. John did note to Robobatic, last night, that certain persons (you included) had not commented on the Malaysian Airline shoot down; John offered a rhetorical opinion as to why that might be.

As to not participating on your thread opened today in the 9 o'clock hour, I thought,'what's the, use; there he goes again. The title says it all.' Have fun goading.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:46 PM

So, we congratulate Israel for not trying to kill too many.

How many innocent people can they kill then before we blush?   100? 1,000? 50,000?

Reminds me of tragedies and statistics....



John on the sunset coast asked why I hadn't given an opinion on something fuck all to do with this thread then got confused when I returned the favour. Sorry, I will make allowances for your lack of intellect in future.

Did you know, Gaza is on a sunset coast. Not that you can see the sunset for the plumes of black smoke and flashes of explosion. Not to mention the soldiers seeing how many notches they can add to their rifle stocks.

By the way, if Israel is the innocent aggrieved nation defending themselves, they need to airbrush out their provocations over the last few years. Google will do it for them if they ask nicely. The US press are doing it nicely already, largely due to where their shareholders stand on such topics.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM

"TRYING not to take innocent life"
Quite possibly - it's a pity they regard anybody who disagrees with their views and ambitions as 'GUILTY'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

My point is being overlooked: That there COULD be tens of thousands of dead and wounded who won't need to be told anything,they are alive, their loved ones live on.
They should be doing everything they can to get rid of the yoke of Hamas which is using them as a vast human shield.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

because Israel is TRYING not to take innocent life.

Tell that to the parents of thhose kids on the beach & the other 200-odd dead & thousands of (some mortally) wounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

"Could it be that that thread does not contain the words Israel and/or Palestine"
No - it means that some of us have lives beyond the desktop and only have time to involve ourselves in threads on which we have a direct interest and a little knowledge.
Can't recall seeing your name (whatever it is) on many of the music threads - which is the prime purpose of this forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:18 PM

I brought up the shoot-down of the Malaysian 777 with almost 300 souls aboard as a comparison of how many truly innocent lives are taken in a single incident.

I think the word 'errant' was appropriate because it was an unnecessary act regardless of which party fired the missile. A plane at 33000 feet was unlikely to be a valid party to either side (I leave which party to the other thread).

The point here was that Israel is swinging a mighty scythe, metaphorically speaking, and harvesting very few grains, because Israel is TRYING not to take innocent life. Over in eastern Ukraine the taking of much life happened almost casually.

Hamas is launching its thousands of rockets with every intention of doing harm, with a range that now allows them to take out those on the West Bank. They were caught exiting a tunnel onto Israeli territory with every intention of doing harm to Israeli civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:44 AM

bobad: "If Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist, they will find Israel will turn out to be more of a friend than a foe in their quest for lasting peace and prosperity."

BTW, who the fuck does 'Hamas' think they are to decide if Israel should exist, or not??...(Well, besides being puppets for Iran)...and for them, Israels won't exist..because Hamas will be pulverized to death, and still not get it!!...and neither will the 'so-called liberals' who think that any country that has a national identity, must be a 'right wing conspiracy'!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM

Folk club = sectarian/nationalistic violence. I understand, musket.

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon!"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:16 AM

John on the sunset coast. I notice that you have not made a single comment on the permathread of our local folk club.

Probably because it didn't contain the word Hamas....

When you are defending the indefensible, don't compound it by dragging in the next item of sad horror and trying to demonise decent people down to your own pathetic level.


Mudcat can be entertaining sometimes, even on such an awful serious topic. I love it when you get idiots and shallow fools who love to polarise opinion, despite no credentials beyond right wing press cuttings and a reactionary mindset. It restores your cynicism in the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM

If Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist, they will find Israel will turn out to be more of a friend than a foe in their quest for lasting peace and prosperity.

Alas, it will take a long time for any such view to prevail.

But unless Palestinians start electing leaders motivated by goodwill and a sincere desire for peace with Israel through compromise, they will continue to see tragedy inflicted on themselves.

For now, we all must hope the current conflict will burn itself out, with the least toll of innocents on both sides.​

Farzana Hassan: Hamas must abandon its hatred of Jews

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:31 PM

"Despite having won the last elections, in 2006, Hamas decided to transfer formal authority to the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah."

Hamas won a PLURALITY (not majority) in a LEGISLATIVE election in 2006. The directly elected President (in 2005) was (and remained) Abbas. The election results were 44% for Hamas and 41% for Fatah. After Hamas failed to form a government, about a year after the election, Hamas and Fatah reached a power-sharing unity government under the Mecca Agreement (brokered by the Saudis). Then in June of 2007 Hamas perpetrated a violent coup (throwing Fatah officials off roof-tops) and illegally seized all power. Only about 20% of the PA population supported this military takeover.

Nice try, Nathan, but no cigar!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:19 PM

The sad part is I expected nothing from you.

Look on the bright side, John - at least you weren't disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:56 PM

Greg F--

1) I was RESPONDING to a post at THIS thread; you did realize that, no?
2) The sad part is I expected nothing from you. But a bit of sympathy for a group other than Hamas, or anger at a group other than Israel might have been nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:40 PM

And now, a brief Musical Interlude

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:39 PM

What comment would you like me to make on the Ukraine incident, John? Shit happens?

PS: You're on the wrong thread for discussing the Ukraine incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM

"One ERRANT (emph. mine) missile and almost 300 civilian deaths over Donetsk region Ukraine."

Have you information other than what various US media have been reporting all day? 'Errant' suggests that the cause is not known as to who, how and why that missle shot down the plane, and was not really intended to bring down that particular plane.

I note that to this point Greg F., nor musket, nor Steve Shaw, nor Jim Carroll have commented on that incident. Could it be that that thread does not contain the words Israel and/or Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:24 PM

How the West Chose War in Gaza
Gaza and Israel: The Road to War, Paved by the West

By NATHAN THRALL, JULY 17, 2014


JERUSALEM — AS Hamas fires rockets at Israeli cities and Israel follows up its extensive airstrikes with a ground operation in the Gaza Strip, the most immediate cause of this latest war has been ignored: Israel and much of the international community placed a prohibitive set of obstacles in the way of the Palestinian "national consensus" government that was formed in early June.

That government was created largely because of Hamas's desperation and isolation. The group's alliance with Syria and Iran was in shambles. Its affiliation with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt became a liability after a July 2013 coup replaced an ally, President Mohamed Morsi, with a bitter adversary, Gen. Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. Hamas's coffers dried up as General Sisi closed the tunnels that had brought to Gaza the goods and tax revenues on which it depended.

Seeing a region swept by popular protests against leaders who couldn't provide for their citizens' basic needs, Hamas opted to give up official control of Gaza rather than risk being overthrown. Despite having won the last elections, in 2006, Hamas decided to transfer formal authority to the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah. That decision led to a reconciliation agreement between Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization, on terms set almost entirely by the P.L.O. chairman and Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas.

Israel immediately sought to undermine the reconciliation agreement by preventing Hamas leaders and Gaza residents from obtaining the two most essential benefits of the deal: the payment of salaries to 43,000 civil servants who worked for the Hamas government and continue to administer Gaza under the new one, and the easing of the suffocating border closures imposed by Israel and Egypt that bar most Gazans' passage to the outside world.

Yet, in many ways, the reconciliation government could have served Israel's interests. It offered Hamas's political adversaries a foothold in Gaza; it was formed without a single Hamas member; it retained the same Ramallah-based prime minister, deputy prime ministers, finance minister and foreign minister; and, most important, it pledged to comply with the three conditions for Western aid long demanded by America and its European allies: nonviolence, adherence to past agreements and recognition of Israel.

Israel strongly opposed American recognition of the new government, however, and sought to isolate it internationally, seeing any small step toward Palestinian unity as a threat. Israel's security establishment objects to the strengthening of West Bank-Gaza ties, lest Hamas raise its head in the West Bank. And Israelis who oppose a two-state solution understand that a unified Palestinian leadership is a prerequisite for any lasting peace.

Still, despite its opposition to the reconciliation agreement, Israel continued to transfer the tax revenues it collects on the Palestinian Authority's behalf, and to work closely with the new government, especially on security cooperation.

But the key issues of paying Gaza's civil servants and opening the border with Egypt were left to fester. The new government's ostensible supporters, especially the United States and Europe, could have pushed Egypt to ease border restrictions, thereby demonstrating to Gazans that Hamas rule had been the cause of their isolation and impoverishment. But they did not.

Instead, after Hamas transferred authority to a government of pro-Western technocrats, life in Gaza became worse.

Qatar had offered to pay Gaza's 43,000 civil servants, and America and Europe could have helped facilitate that. But Washington warned that American law prohibited any entity delivering payment to even one of those employees — many thousands of whom are not members of Hamas but all of whom are considered by American law to have received material support from a terrorist organization.

When a United Nations envoy offered to resolve this crisis by delivering the salaries through the United Nations, so as to exclude all parties from legal liability, the Obama administration did not assist. Instead, it stood by as Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, called for the envoy's expulsion on the grounds that he was "trying to funnel money" to Hamas.

Hamas is now seeking through violence what it couldn't obtain through a peaceful handover of responsibilities. Israel is pursuing a return to the status quo ante, when Gaza had electricity for barely eight hours a day, water was undrinkable, sewage was dumped in the sea, fuel shortages caused sanitation plants to shut down and waste sometimes floated in the streets. Patients needing medical care couldn't reach Egyptian hospitals, and Gazans paid $3,000 bribes for a chance to exit when Egypt chose to open the border crossing.

For many Gazans, and not just Hamas supporters, it's worth risking more bombardment and now the ground incursion, for a chance to change that unacceptable status quo. A cease-fire that fails to resolve the salary crisis and open Gaza's border with Egypt will not last. It is unsustainable for Gaza to remain cut off from the world and administered by employees working without pay. A more generous cease-fire, though politically difficult for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, would be more durable.

The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement. The road out of the crisis is a reversal of that policy.

*************8

Nathan Thrall is a senior analyst at the International Crisis Group covering Gaza, Israel, Jordan and the West Bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:21 PM

Over a thousand Israeli air sorties and almost 200 deaths Hamas militia and civilians combined.
One errant missile and almost 300 civilian deaths over Donetsk region Ukraine.

The Israelis have been mighty careful to limit casualties. One would think that with total control of the air they could make EVERY sortie have the kind of casualty kind the innocents experienced over the Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:04 PM

"The Toll In Gaza"

Thanks to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:07 PM



The Toll In Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:06 PM

The truth, Goofus? That I'm a Nazi and an anti-Semite among other bits of horseshit? His "truth"[sic], and possibly your "truth"[sic], but not THE truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM

As I've posted before, instead of trying to run Beardedbruce out of town, because of his posts, which ARE substantiated, you should be thanking him!! He is, in fact, telling you the truth, which even if it does, intrude into your biases, IS the truth, with included sources....and THAT trumps unlearned, biased prejudices, that come across as sheer hatred, not just to Israel, but a complete disregard for reality!!!!

Let the truth be told, and let the chips fall where they may.....not throw cow-chips out everywhere, and let idiots eat them up and scatter bullshit, everywhere!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM

I wish the best for ... all the good people of Gaza

Too late, Boo........

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM

Former U.S. President Bill Clinton laid the blame for Palestinian civilian casualties squarely on the heads of Hamas leaders, saying their policy was designed to kill Palestinians. Interviewed on India's NDTV, Clinton was blunt in his assessment:

    Hamas was perfectly well aware of what would happen if they started raining rockets into Israel. They fired one thousand and they have a strategy designed to force Israel to kill their own civilians so that the rest of the world will condemn them.

    They (Israel) know when Hamas attacks them that Hamas has set up a situation which politically it can't lose, because they (Israelis) can say 'well if I attack them back they always hide behind civilians and I'll kill civilians, and if I don't we'll look like fools letting somebody shoot a thousand rockets at us and not responding.'

    In the short and medium term Hamas can inflict terrible public relations damage by forcing (Israel) to kill Palestinian civilians to counter Hamas. But it's a crass strategy that takes all of our eyes off the real objective which is a peace that gets Israel security and recognition and a peace that gets the Palestinians their state.

Clinton is just the latest world leader to publicly support Israel and condemn Hamas, following statements by U.S. President Barack Obama, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, British Prime Minister David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, French President Francois Hollande, and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

Bill Clinton: Hamas' "Crass Strategy" is to Kill Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:51 PM

UNRWA Strongly Condemns Placement of Rockets in School
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza

UNRWA

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:12 PM

I feel truly sorry for all involved. As with all conflicts, I suspect each side feels that their side has "the high ground". Each side seem to be acting like "cornered animals". Loss of life is most likely one result-the sooner an agreement to diffuse the situation, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM

This is a perfect chance to liberate the people of Gaza from their oppressors, Hamas. I wish the best for the IDF and all the good people of Gaza - stay safe!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM

Israeli ground operations into Gaza begin.....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

"YET YOU still do so- bringing up Palestinians killed because of the illegal rocket attacks by Hamas upon Israeli civilians."
The Holocaust occurred in the first half of the last century - the murder of Palestinians is an ongoing fact
Can it be a coincidence tat the nearer Israel gets to slaughtering the people of norther Gaza, the louder get the shrieks of "Antisemitism" from their apologists?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM

"It is therefore vital to prevent and eradicate all forms of participation of children in hostilities. The Statute of the International Criminal Court is an important element contributing to a better respect of humanitarian law provisions as regards a ban on recruitment and participation of child ren in armed conflicts. The Statute includes, in its list of war crimes, the acts of conscripting or enlisting children under the age of 15 in the armed forces or in armed groups, and making them actively take part in hostilities. It should be noted that the concept of participation must extend both to direct participation in fighting and to active involvement in duties or activities related to combat, such as reconnaissance, spying, sabotage, and the use of children as decoys, messengers or at military checkpoints. "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM

GregF has a real problem dealing with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:23 PM

from the ICRC

"In areas where civilians are concentrated, clearly-separated military objectives should n ot be treated as a single military objective. Unless circumstances do not permit it, each party to the conflict shall give an effective advance warning prior to an attack which may affect the civilian population.

In some cases, civilians and prisoners are used as human shields to protect military objectives from attack. In others, the red cross or the red crescent emblem is used to mislead the enemy and conduct military actions. Simulation of protected status by using the red cross, the red crescent, UN or other protective emblems are considered as acts of perfidy, amounting to a grave breach of humanitarian law."


Now tell me again WHICH side is acting according to International Law?


Israel, which is warning about, and even stopping attacks when evidence is available that there are civilians still there,

Or Hamas, which rains antipersonnel rockets over 5 million of the 8 million Israelis without warning, and tells its own people not to evacuate designated military targets?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM

BB seems to be having another bout of serial postarrhoea. Must have run out of paregoric & kaolin.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:58 PM

So, Steve, have you heard ANY reports from Gaza about those killed BY THEIR OWN ROCKETS?

Since THAT information is censored by Hamas, I doubt if you will get anything near a balanced view.



"The Israeli military said one rocket hit the southern city of Ashkelon and another fell short and landed inside Gaza"


And these anti-personnel rockets caused NO reported damage, while any Israeli bullet seeks out the nearest civilian…


"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

"Talk about bringing a forum into total disrepute."


No, GregF and Jim have already done that.

You seem to be trying to join them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM

IF Jim can make the statements that he has for the last several years, and not be criticized, then MY statements stand as stated- If you don't like them, SHOW ME YOU ARE NOT DOING AS I STATE.

As far as I can tell FROM YOUR POSTS, my statements are accurate.

If they are too much for you to read, TRY TO APPLY THAT STANDARD TO WHAT YOU ARE POSTING FIRST.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

JERUSALEM — More than 40 rockets from the Gaza Strip whizzed into Israel starting at 3 p.m. Thursday, precisely marking the designated end of the five-hour halt to hostilities both sides had agreed upon to provide a "humanitarian window" to residents after nine days of fighting.

The Israeli military said one rocket hit the southern city of Ashkelon and another fell short and landed inside Gaza, as sirens again sounded repeatedly across southern Israel. A military spokesman said Israel had not immediately resumed strikes on Gaza.

Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE

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The aftermath of an airstrike on a beach in Gaza City on Wednesday. Four young Palestinian boys, all cousins, were killed.Through Lens, 4 Boys Dead by Gaza ShoreJULY 16, 2014
The pause, requested by the United Nations, came after Israel foiled a predawn attack in which about 13 Palestinian militants emerged from a tunnel near a kibbutz, and as negotiations toward a Cairo-brokered cease-fire deal continued. It was interrupted by a brief flurry of mortar fire that fell in open ground near the Gaza border, but otherwise the quiet held from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m., allowing Gaza residents to safely come out of their homes to shop and survey the damage the battle had wrought.

Palestinian, Egyptian, Israeli and American officials said intense discussions were underway on terms for a cease-fire that could take effect as soon as 6 a.m. Friday, but none was willing to be quoted by name. A high-level Israeli delegation returned from Cairo, where President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority and Tony Blair, the envoy of the so-called Quartet of Middle East peacemakers, met Wednesday with President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt.

"The effort to achieve an end of the violence is ongoing," said one senior Israeli official. "We're not there yet."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:33 PM

You and the Hamas leaders will not be happy until there are enough dead Palestinian children to bury Israel under.

Of all the disgraceful posts ever made on this forum, this one truly takes the biscuit. I trust the moderators are fighting this bloke tooth and nail behind the scenes. Talk about bringing a forum into total disrepute.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

The only bit that makes sense in this thread lately is where Steve calls beardedbruce scum.

If beardedbruce can show where anyone here said anything remotely like not wishing to see live Jews, I would be grateful.

When you haven't got an argument or are secretly ashamed of your partisan stance, you put words into the mouths of others and cut and paste subjective diatribe that no fucker bothers reading.

Most people are capable of reading or hearing news and articles and coming to their own conclusions. I notice the less savoury characters on Mudcat seem to borrow their opinions and then berate those intelligent enough to come to their own view and articulate it.

The only people mentioning Jews are you racist twats. You love to interchange Hamas, Muslim and Palestinian. Then assume others do similar.

Pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:04 PM

Jerusalem (AFP) - The UN agency for Palestinian refugees UNRWA said Thursday it was investigating after finding 20 rockets hidden in one of its vacant schools in the Gaza Strip.

It condemned the incident as a "flagrant violation" of international law and said the rockets had been removed and the "relative parties" informed.

"Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the agency said in a statement.

"UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations," it continued.

"This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law."

It said the incident was the first of its kind, warning that it "endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA's vital mission."

The statement said UNRWA "informed the relevant parties and successfully took all necessary measures for the removal of the objects."

"UNRWA has launched a comprehensive investigation."

Israel regularly accuses Hamas and other Gaza militants of using civilian installations to store and launch rockets, including during the current conflict that began on July 8.

Gaza militants have fired hundreds of rockets since the latest violence began, with Israel launching punishing air strikes that have killed 221 people and forced thousands to flee.

Around 22,000 people who have fled their homes have taken refuge in UNRWA schools, but the one where the rockets were found was not being used.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

Abbas and other Arab leaders demand that Israel stop striking Gaza, but not that Hamas stop shooting rockets at Israel. So the United States should demand they correct that imbalance.

The most striking aspect of ongoing Arab reactions to the latest Hamas-Israeli clashes is an act of omission: the Palestinian Authority (PA) and President Mahmoud Abbas are not calling for Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israeli cities. This contradicts Abbas's recent declarations that the new PA government and its Hamas backers would honor past PA commitments regarding nonviolence against Israel. A new statement from Abbas's office claims that "the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves by all legitimate means" against "Israeli escalation."

In today's latest twist, Abbas and the PA are not just calling for Israel to stop its airstrikes against Hamas targets inside Gaza. According to several plausible press reports, they are also threatening to haul Israel before the International Criminal Court for the "war crime" or "genocide" of responding to Hamas rocket attacks. PA messaging, moreover, makes no effort to distinguish between the Hamas "political leadership" -- which signed the reconciliation agreement with the PA's ruling Fatah Party and may have attempted to restrain the initial rocket salvos -- and the Hamas "military wing," which some PA officials privately blame for trying to torpedo reconciliation by firing indiscriminately at Israel.

The official messages from Fatah, of which Abbas is also the chairman, are even more inflammatory, explicitly praising the rocket fire and threatening all Israelis with death and destruction. Ironically, pro-Hamas Palestinian media are taking the PA to task for offering mere verbal support, even as it largely strives to maintain calm and coordination with Israel in the West Bank territory it controls.

The Arab League and the governments of Qatar and Syria have issued similarly one-sided statements, demanding that Israel stop its "aggression "or "escalation" while failing to acknowledge that Hamas rocket fire provoked the latest conflict, or even to urge Hamas to desist. But none of this rhetoric has been matched with threats of direct action, and some of the pronouncements seem to shift the onus of taking action to others. For example, Arab League secretary-general Nabil al-Araby called for a UN Security Council emergency session to "stop Israel's aggressions," with no mention of Hamas responsibility.

Overall, Arab official and media commentary has been relatively sparse, likely due at least in part to the worse bloodshed besetting other countries in the region. But coverage of Gaza may well increase over time, as it has in past episodes.

Official statements from Egypt and Jordan have been somewhat more balanced. Jordan's foreign minister Nasser Judeh urged Israel to "stop its escalation immediately," but also called for "the restoration of complete calm and avoidance of targeting civilians" and even for "the return to direct negotiations." The office of Egyptian president Abdul Fattah al-Sisi called for "an immediate ceasefire" out of concern for "the safety of the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip."

Since Sisi took over, however, Cairo has downgraded its contacts with Hamas; and that decision, while constructive overall, would likely have the unintended consequence of making any Egyptian effort to broker a ceasefire less effective than in the past. And there is no sign this time that Egypt is actively pursuing a deal on reopening its Rafah crossing into Gaza, except for emergency medical and other small-scale humanitarian purposes. A more expansive approach to reopening Rafah might make a ceasefire more acceptable to both Hamas and Israel, as on some previous occasions.

Finally, high-level U.S. statements, from President Obama on down, have so far not asked Abbas to account for the PA's failure to oppose the Hamas rocket fire. Rather, these statements appear well behind the curve, focusing on past peace talks or the recent kidnapping episodes instead of dealing with the immediate military crisis. On Tuesday, the State Department spokesperson "strongly" condemned "the deliberate targeting of civilians by terrorist organizations in Gaza," adding that the United States "certainly supports Israel's right to defend itself against these attacks." Yet she added that "both sides" should "de-escalate tensions on the ground," and that Abbas faces "limitations" on his influence in Gaza. In this urgent new situation, Washington should unconditionally demand that Hamas stop shooting rockets into Israel -- and that the PA fulfill its longstanding commitment to precisely that position.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

"Crouching behind the dead to defend atrocities gets more and more disgusting, the longer you do it."

YET YOU still do so- bringing up Palestinians killed because of the illegal rocket attacks by Hamas upon Israeli civilians.


You and the Hamas leaders will not be happy until there are enough dead Palestinian children to bury Israel under.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:40 AM

"EU definition."
Had the U.N. or the European Union mattered one damn to the Israelis they wouldn't have sabotaged the peace talks that they have, or blockading Gaza, or bombarding civilians......
They would certainly not be threatening the lives and homes of 100,000 non combatants, as they are doing at the present time.
Is to criticise Israel is Antisemitic, a large slice of the world, including a large and growing number of Jews are Antisemites.
Crouching behind the dead to defend atrocities gets more and more disgusting, the longer you do it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

A recent, credible poll shows that most Gazans oppose Hamas policies and leaders alike, and favor a ceasefire with Israel.
Yesterday's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel and instead continues to fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities.

Less known is a crucial fact: the people of Gaza are solidly against these Hamas policies. Indeed, by a very large majority, they oppose Hamas rule altogether.

These findings are based on a June 15-17 survey by a highly respected Palestinian pollster, who conducted face-to-face interviews throughout Gaza using standard random geographical probability sampling. The poll included 450 Gazans, yielding a margin of error of approximately 4 percent.

This is the only credible Palestinian poll taken since the mid-June West Bank kidnapping incident, Israel's subsequent searches and arrests, and the start of the current crisis (for more on the survey, see PolicyWatch 2276, "New Palestinian Poll Shows Hardline Views, But Some Pragmatism Too").

GAZANS WANTED A CEASEFIRE EVEN AS HAMAS STARTED FIRING ROCKETS
As tensions mounted and Hamas and other Gazan factions began to step up rocket fire last month, the people of that territory were heavily in favor of a ceasefire -- 70 percent of the poll respondents agreed or strongly agreed with the statement "Hamas should maintain a ceasefire with Israel in both Gaza and the West Bank." This attitude is corroborated by the 73 percent of Gazans who said Palestinians should adopt "proposals for (nonviolent) popular resistance against the occupation."

Similarly, when asked if Hamas should accept Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas's position that the new unity government renounce violence against Israel, a clear majority (57 percent) answered in the affirmative. The responses to all three questions clearly indicate that most Gazans reject military escalation. Attitudes may have shifted since the poll due to anger at Israeli airstrikes, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the Gazan public still supports a ceasefire.

HAMAS FAILING TO DELIVER
The poll also demonstrates that Gazans are unhappy with Hamas governance -- on multiple levels. A large majority (71 percent) considered crime to be a "significant" problem. Two-thirds said that another significant problem was official corruption. Moreover, a large majority (78 percent) found the "presence of Palestinian militias that are not organized under the formal security structure" to be at least a "moderate" problem.

In light of this dissatisfaction with Hamas security forces and administration, most respondents favored the prospect of the PA taking over Gaza. A remarkable 88 percent agreed with the statement "The PA should send officials and security officers to Gaza to take over administration there" -- including two-thirds who "strongly" agreed.

HAMAS LEADERS HAVE MEAGER POLITICAL SUPPORT
Also very striking, and contrary to common misperception, is the fact that Hamas did not gain politically from the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers that sparked the current crisis last month. Asked who should be the president of Palestine in the next two years, a solid majority in Gaza named either Abbas or other leaders affiliated with the Fatah Party. In stark contrast, Hamas leaders Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal rated a combined total of just 15 percent support.

MAJORITY OF GAZANS WANT ISRAELI JOBS
The Gazan economy has receded over the past year as unemployment climbed to around 40 percent. Egypt's closure of multiple smuggling tunnels and the Fatah-Hamas dispute over post-reconciliation salaries have only exacerbated this dire economic situation.

The results of the June poll go even further than these indicators, showing that Gazans would be willing to look to Israel for their livelihood. Respondents overwhelmingly (82 percent) said they "would like to see Israel allow more Palestinians to work in Israel." Still more poignantly, a majority (56 percent) said they "would be personally willing to work in Israel if there was a good, high-paying job." Thus, Gazans actually favored some form of normalization with Israel in order to find work.

POLICY IMPLICATIONS
The June survey demonstrates the sharp contrast between what most Gazans want and what their Hamas government continually does. The group's popularity was at a low point as the current crisis began, and there is no evidence that it has rebounded.

The poll results show that the people of that hard-pressed territory want a ceasefire and even economic opportunity in Israel -- and that they overwhelmingly reject Hamas policies and leaders alike. These fundamental facts should help guide the U.S. government and its regional allies as they search not just for a ceasefire, but also for longer-term economic and political prescriptions for Gaza's fate.



Read more: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hamas-wants-ceasefire#When:15:54:31Z#ixzz37jwaY6RP

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:56 AM

It is NOT dead Muslims that bother some here, but live Jews.


PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE.

SOME here have expressed that they have a problem with the FACT that not as many Jews are being killed as Muslims. That bothers them

Many here that have commented on Israeli "killings" of Palestinians had no problem when it was other Muslims killing far more Muslim civilians. It is ONLY when Israel is involved that they seem to care about Muslims. THEN they cry their "tears' and bemoan the loss of even a single life ( except when it is Jewish).




"I should like to suggest that you confine your "opinion" to what is being said and is not, instead, directed at the person"

Ye, I DO have an opinion about those here WHO HAVE EXPRESSED views I think indicate bigotry or inhumanity, and who shown support for the war crimes of Hamas.

WHAT THEY SAY indicates the point that they ARE ANTI-SEMITIC according to the EU definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

No, GregF is our resident Nazi.

Look at his stated opinion of people who are "Black, and a Democrat"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:22 AM

You are implying that people who disagree with you are antisemitic.

Not implying, stating it overtly. Next he'll be calling you a Nazi, with BooBad cheering him on.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:06 AM

Steve,

6/24/2014, 10:05 PM is AFTER the start of the current rocket attacks.

YOUR atetsment is a LIE- Non factual repeated after being informed as to it's falsehood

If YOU are less concerned about dead Muslims than about being able to blame them on Israel, YOU are the scum.


If the shoe fits...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM

The current phase of this conflict has been underway for around two weeks or less. Every Palestinian killed in that time has been killed by a bomb, bullet or other missile fired by an Israeli. It was this phase of the conflict that prompted me to chime in here and that, clearly, is what I'm referring to. We could go back as far and David and Goliath if you like.

Your comment about live Jews is a disgrace. You are implying that people who disagree with you are antisemitic. You are scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

"The Israeli warnings appeared to have had no immediate effect, with only limited numbers seen leaving. Children picked up many of the flyers and played with them, an AFP correspondent said.

"Where should we go?" asked Faisal Hassan, a father of five who lives in Zeitun.

Hamas dismissed the warning as a scare tactic, telling residents there was "no need to worry".
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

It is NOT dead Muslims that bother some here, but live Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:16 AM

A shaky truce appears to be mostly holding in Gaza, despite some continued incidents of violence Hamas and Israeli forces. A five-hour "humanitarian window" went into effect early on Friday, a ceasefire that was almost immediately broken when three mortars were fired into Israel just two hours in the break. Hamas did not claim responsibility and Israel did not immediately retaliate, so the truce has continued as planned, with Gazans taking the opportunity to gather supplies and repair damage.

Related Stories

Gaza humanitarian truce goes into force, hours after tunnel clash Reuters
Israeli troops kill four gunmen who slip in from Gaza by sea Reuters
Fragile humanitarian truce under way in Gaza AFP
Children killed on beach as Israel resumes Gaza bombardment AFP
Israel says it shot down Gaza drone as calls for truce mount Reuters
Israeli officials also told AFP that another ceasefire has been agreed to for Friday morning, but there has been no confirmation of an agreement from the Hamas side.

Despite the temporary lull in the shooting, the conflict shows every sign of continuing. Just hours before the UN-brokered temporary truce was set to begin, Israeli troops reportedly thwarted an operation by 13 armed Hamas infiltrators, who were said to have tunneled into Israel from Gaza. They were stopped just a mile short of a kibbutz in southern Israel where 45 families live.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:13 AM

If in the past year you didn't CRY OUT when thousands of protesters were killed and injured by Turkey, Egypt and Libya, when more victims than ever were hanged by Iran, women and children in Afghanistan were bombed, whole communities were massacred in South Sudan, 1800 Palestinians were starved and murdered by Assad in Syria, hundreds in Pakistan were killed by jihadist terror attacks, 10,000 Iraqis were killed by terrorists, villagers were slaughtered in Nigeria, but you ONLY cry out for GAZA, then you are not pro HUMAN RIGHTS, you are only ANTI-ISRAEL."


— Hillel Neuer

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

Hear, hear!

Rob Morris: Dear World,

It appears that you are hard to please. I understand that you are upset over us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged! Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we, the Jewish people – upset you. We upset a German people who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations – Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit. It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you – in a manner of speaking – and establish a Jewish State. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you – and have you love us? And so we decided to come home – to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset. Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state – we continue to upset you. You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset. The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset. Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron – in 1929. Dear World, why did the Arabs – the Palestinians – massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews – was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset then? The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who – when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state – attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" – "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream – destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today – but we should not "repress" them. Dear World, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction. And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well – think of how many times in the past you bothered us. In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM

November 18, 2012

"But there were signs on Saturday that not all the Palestinian casualties have been the result of Israeli air strikes. The highly publicised death of four-year-old Mohammed Sadallah appeared to have been the result of a misfiring home-made rocket, not a bomb dropped by Israel.

The child's death on Friday figured prominently in media coverage after Hisham Kandil, the Egyptian prime minister, was filmed lifting his dead body out of an ambulance. "The boy, the martyr, whose blood is still on my hands and clothes, is something that we cannot keep silent about," he said, before promising to defend the Palestinian people.

But experts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights who visited the site on Saturday said they believed that the explosion was caused by a Palestinian rocket."

There is only one party that not only deliberately targets innocent Israeli children but also has no qualms about putting the lives of Palestinian children at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:51 AM

Nothing new about this, either-

It seems that Hamas rockets are even better at killing Palestinians than they are at killing Israelis.



" Updated December 27, 2008 - 3:09am

GAZA CITY (AP) – A crude rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel yesterday, striking a house in the northern Gaza Strip and killing two schoolgirls.

The attack came as Israel sent mixed signals over its plans to respond to continuing Palestinian rocket fire. Israeli defense officials say politicians have approved a large-scale incursion into the territory once rainy conditions clear. But at the same time, Israel appeared receptive to international pressure against an invasion, opening the Gaza border yesterday to allow in deliveries of humanitarian aid.

None of Gaza's militant factions claimed responsibility for the deadly attack on the house in Beit Lahiya. Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moiaya Hassanain said the two victims, ages 5 and 12, were cousins. Three other children were wounded, he said.

The girls were the first Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by militants since their truce with Israel began collapsing six weeks ago. Family members and medics said they were killed by rocket fire."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:45 AM

Sorry, I was wrong about the age.

So it is OK for HAMAS to kill 3 year old girls, as long as Steve is ignorant of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

First Publish: 6/24/2014, 10:05 PM

"A Palestinian Arab girl was killed and three others wounded in Gaza after a rocket fired at Israel by terrorists in the Hamas-enclave fell short, landing in Gaza itself.

The rocket was the third of four fired within an hour from Gaza. The Iron Dome anti-missile defense system shot down the first two, which were launched within minutes of each other, and the fourth hit a town in the Sedot Negev Regional Council, causing no damage.

Hamas medical sources say the fatality is a three-year-old girl.

Over 20 rockets have been fired at Israel since Operation Brother's Keeper began two weeks ago to rescue the three Israeli teens kidnapped by Hamas terrorists, with the IDF noting that over 200 rockets have been fired from Gaza since the start of the year.

Another failed missile was recorded last Friday. After Iron Dome shot down a rocket earlier in the day, another terrorist rocket was fired but fell short of its mark, landing in Gaza. No damage was reported in the incident."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM

""Just 'cause youz wear a wig, doesn't mean you're a gurl.""

Quote: Gustav "Gouda" Nyenyenyenyenyeneghh

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM

" each and every death in Gaza has been caused by an Israeli gun or an Israeli bomb, set off in every single case by an Israeli. "


UNTRUE.

The VERY first child killed in this recent rocket barrage was a 4 or 5 year old PALESTINIAN in Gaza killed by a HAMAS rocket that misfired.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM

Historically anti Israel BBC???? Is that all Palestinians that are lying propagandists?

If objective coverage makes something look in a bad light, it's possibly because they..

Oh, forget it. You can't educate pork, kosher or Halal.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:50 AM

Historically anti-Israel BBC is finally telling the truth about Gaza, and Muslims are outraged

Angry mob of Muslims and left wing dhimmi sympathizers take to the streets to protest the BBC's truthful reporting showing the Palestinians for lying propagandists they really are.

RAW: Anger & unrest at London protest over 'BBC bias' on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

Here is the widely believed fallacy: the Israeli blockade of Gaza led to the firing of Hamas rockets from Gaza.

And here is the little known truth: it was the firing of Hamas rockets from Gaza that led to the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

The fallacy distorts our understanding of why these escalations keep happening and what will make a durable peace possible. The fallacy frames the Israeli blockade of Gaza as motiveless and cruel at best, demonic at worst, while it presents the firing of Hamas rockets on Israeli civilians as acts of resistance. The fallacy makes us think that if only Israel "lifted the blockade" then peace would break out.

The fallacy spreads because of ignorance.

***************************************************************************************************************

David Horovitz, the British-born editor of the Times of Israel, expresses the exasperation of many Israelis about all this. He pleads for "opinion-shapers overseas to… exercise just a smidgen of intellectual honesty", and stop contriving not to see that "If there was no rocket fire from this non-disputed enclave, there would be no Israeli response, and nobody would be dying."


Alan Johnson: The Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:14 AM

The Hamas death industry

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:56 AM

Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:15 AM

The claim of 'Human shields' is a cynical misinterpretation of international laws which cover deliberately placing non-combatants in the line of fire - it is being used by Israel as an excuse to indiscriminately bomb and mortar civilian ares.
Jim Carroll

Israeli-Palestinian conflict[edit]
Palestinians[edit]
Palestinian rioters who hurl stones against Israelis using an ambulance as a cover. (video)
During the Second Intifada (2000–2005) Palestinian gunmen used civilians and children as human shield, by surrounding themselves with children while shooting on IDF forces.[14]
In November 2006, Palestinian women volunteered as human shields to allow the escape of Hamas gunmen from Israeli forces in Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. The armed Palestinians had barricaded themselves in a mosque, which was surrounded by Israeli troops and tanks. According to a Hamas spokesman, a crowd of women gathered outside the mosque in response to an appeal on the local radio station for women to protect the Hamas fighters. The Palestinian gunmen escaped by dressing in women's clothes and hiding in the large group.[15]
Also in the same month, the Israeli Air Force warned Mohammed Weil Baroud, a Palestinian leader said to be responsible for firing Qassam rockets at Israel, to evacuate his home in Beit Lahia in the Gaza Strip in advance of an airstrike. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, gathered outside Baroud's house. Israel suspended the airstrike out of fear that the human shields would be killed or injured. In response to Israel's reaction, another Palestinian leader said: "We have won. From now on we will form human chains around every house that is threatened with demolition."[16] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs says Hamas now regularly uses human shields to protect the homes of Hamas officials.[17]
The human rights group Rabbis for Human Rights agreed to act as human shields during the annual olive harvest to protect Palestinian villages from settlers.[18]
On October 29, 2007, in response to criticism of Israel's bombing of a Beit Hanoun Elementary School for boys run by UNRWA, the Israel Defense Forces released drone footage of mortars shot from a street adjacent to the school. Israel warned Ban Ki Moon about the danger and requested an investigation.[19] A Hamas spokesman stated that no attacks were launched from the school though two people stating to be locals and refusing to state their names phoned AP reporters to claim that attacks had come from nearby the school.[20] 43 Palestinians were reported killed when a street outside the school was hit by return fire.[21] Israel accused Hamas of "cynically" using civilians as human shields. A report from the IDF brigade responsible for the attack stated that militants had launched a rocket into Israel from a yard adjacent to the UN building and the paratroop brigade had fired three rounds of mortars at the position. A GPS error led to one of the mortars hitting the building.[22]
The Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center accused Hamas and other armed groups of making extensive use of human shields as integral part of their war doctrine, in order to prevent the IDF to target them, during the Gaza War (2008-2009). According to the ITIC, tactics used by Hamas that qualify as using human shields include hiding military infrastructure in civilian buildings - including "mosques, hospitals and educational institutions", firing rockets and mortar shells from civilian population centers, "summoning civilians to come to operatives' houses to serve as human shields for terrorist operatives in danger of being attacked by the IDF" and using children as human shield by "surrounding operatives with children to facilitate their escape from combat zones".[23][24] The IDF released a video accusing an alleged Hamas member of using civilians as human shield for allegedly walking away with children after an attack during the Gaza War (2008-2009). [25] The IDF also released a video taken from an UAV drone documenting Hamas militant launching a rocket from a roof of a civilian house and then using children to escort him out to avoid being targeted by IDF forces.[26]

Israel[edit]
The IDF admitted it had used Palestinians as 'human shields', in limited capacities, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[27] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[28] Specifically, while acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", claiming it had already forbidden this practice[29].
Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch[31] said the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of "human shields" during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34]
The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[32][35] In 2006, the IDF again used civilians as human shields in Beit Hanun.[36] In February 2007, Associated Press Television News released footage of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian. The video appears to show the West Bank resident serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers.[35][37] The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident.[35] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank raid.[38]
During the 2008-2009 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and former Israeli soldiers (see Breaking the Silence). According to testimonies, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[39][40]
The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during 2008-2009 Gaza Conflict[41][42]
The Guardian has compiled three videos[43] and testimony from civilians of alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza war, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields, the targeting of medics and hospitals, and drone aircraft firing on civilians deliberately.[44] Three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family have claimed that "they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them".[44]
An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[44]
However, in a report on the Gaza conflict,[45] released July 2, 2009, Amnesty International wrote that Israel did use human shields in Gaza. Amnesty claimed to have found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk. The report also criticized Hamas for human rights violations, but "found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings".[46] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas".
On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[47] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[48][49][50]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:55 AM

I would say nice to see you back Keith, but you must have sat thinking a long time before wondering how appalling you could make your first contribution.

It isn't the fault of paedophiles, it's the children dressing as if they are gagging for it eh?

That is about the best defence Netanyahu will have as a comparison when reason and decency gets him in The Hague.

I suppose sandbag and beach are a clever use of words if you get pleasure out of supporting terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM

Steve, Channel 4 News last night.
The reporter in Gaza said Israel had warned residents in an area to leave because attacks were imminent, but Hamas came on the radio and told them to stay put because it was just "propaganda."

Any country subject to bombardment from outside is quite legally entitled to strike back.
It is illegal for either side to fight from civilian occupied areas.

Hamas commits a war crime by launching missiles at civilian targets.
It commits another by failing to evacuate civilians from its weapons sites.

It is not illegal to strike at targets protected by living sandbags, provided warnings are given and efforts are made to minimise civilian casualties.
Hamas chooses not to move its people to safety as it is legally required to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM

"OK, Jim, I got that...but where did YOU get that from?"
Where did I get what GFI?
Israel has been identifying as deliberately using human shields - making children walk into 'at risk' area in front of the soldiers, sitting them on the bonnets of their vehicles, setting up missile launching units in schoolyard, stationing observation units in occupied homes..... many of these incidents come with photographs and the matter has been raised in by U,N. war crimes groups.
Are you suggesting that these are all Antisemitic fakes?
The act of adopting as policy of "if you fire rockets at us we will kill and destroy anybody who happens to be in the way of our bombing and shelling, combatants and non combatants notwithstanding, is one of making everybody 'human shields'.
Israel is now in the process of threatening the lives and homes of 100,000 'human shields' in northern Gaza.
What was your question again?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:15 AM

Hey Goofus! You would have liked those children playing on the beach yesterday then. Couldn't wait to meet Allah eh? Being children, do you think they were playing martyrs and asking each other what a fucking virgin is?

They were doing alright till the Israeli bombs joined in.

Sad sick bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:42 AM

Steve Pshaw: "If you have evidence that Hamas uses force in order to make Gazans into human shields, or "kidnaps" them, well let's be having it. Otherwise, you appear to be guilty of being a Hamas-demonising Israel apologist. Prove me wrong. But prove means prove, John."

If you say they are volunteers, then, as I pointed out earlier, they a combatants...sorta like suicide bombers, or Kamikaze pilots....and if that is their tactic, then that is their tactic. If they think that standing under Israeli missiles are going to take them to Allah quicker, for being a martyr, shit, don't deny them the honor....jeez, you want to be a 'bigot' and deny them their freedom to express or practice their religion!!..Matter of fact, with that logic, they should be thanking the Israelis for giving them a fast track to 'Utopia'...
....sure beats the slow painful road at the hands of 'so-called liberals'...you know, like you!

Makes simple and plain sense, using your logic!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM

Steve Shaw, you are a piece of work! You provide little to no support for your assertions. Did I find any attribution when you from you when you baldly averred that Hamas does not kill its governed. I did not, because there was none. Did I challenge you to prove it? I did not. I knew your statement to be wrong, and found sources to support that knowledge, including The Guardian (as I understand its politics, a center-left paper). I gave you a lot more than you've given us, here.

Do you want to be an obstructionist, or do you want to learn?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:26 PM

I could suggest that you learn to discriminate. It might help if you clear your head of your prejudices first. I asked you for your references. I note your reluctance so to do. If you make assertions based on your googling, you should be able to support them with references. You do not get to give me that homework.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:14 PM

"Yes, you couldn't be clearer. You googled something."

I told you exactly what terms I used to google. You can use the same terms and find the same sites. Go and Learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:58 PM

Your premise has no relation to reality. A more realistic reading is that Hamas forces residents to be shields, in essence kidnapping them. That makes Hamas guilty of their deaths.

It wasn't a premise.

If you have evidence that Hamas uses force in order to make Gazans into human shields, or "kidnaps" them, well let's be having it. Otherwise, you appear to be guilty of being a Hamas-demonising Israel apologist. Prove me wrong. But prove means prove, John.

Also, Steve,I said, below, that I googled 'hamas kills palestineans' and found citations that Hamas actually kills Gazans. Can I be any clearer than that?

Yes, you couldn't be clearer. You googled something. That's clear. Nine times out of ten, when I google something, I get rubbish. It can sometimes be hard to distinguish, of course, as we all know. Let's have details of your alleged "citations". It's piss or get off the pot time, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:54 PM

"But the tango don't go too well if one participant is ten foot three and the other is four foot nine.""

Well, there is always the option to just say no tango, dhango.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:41 PM

I tell you to get out of the way within five seconds or I shoot. You refuse, so I shoot you dead. I tell the police that you committed suicide.

Hey, it worked a treat for George Zimmerman - Netanyahu is just applying "stand your ground" principles........

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:33 PM

"So, John. I point a gun at you. I tell you to get out of the way within five seconds or I shoot. You refuse, so I shoot you dead. I tell the police that you committed suicide."

Your premise has no relation to reality. A more realistic reading is that Hamas forces residents to be shields, in essence kidnapping them. That makes Hamas guilty of their deaths.

Also, Steve,I said, below, that I googled 'hamas kills palestineans' and found citations that Hamas actually kills Gazans. Can I be any clearer than that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:16 PM

So, John. I point a gun at you. I tell you to get out of the way within five seconds or I shoot. You refuse, so I shoot you dead. I tell the police that you committed suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:14 PM

Ed T: "More importantly, such an attempt would surely be seen as not reasonable nor logical. We are logical people, capable of more than that in discussion, are we not?"

I dunn-know, once you've fucked up people's mind with politics, and the lying spins it takes to get that train a'movin', God only knows what kind of logic is left!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:14 PM

it takes to tango

But the tango don't go too well if one participant is ten foot three and the other is four foot nine.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM

"You want facts, so here's an inconvenient one for you. Hamas does not kill its own civilians." - Steve Shaw

A brief google search 'hamas kills palestinians' produces rather quickly several articles, including one in The Guardian citing Human Rights Watch, showing that that is not true.

Also, no matter how much you tell us that Hamas is not proximately responsible for Gazan civilian deaths, the more I believe that you really don't seem to care about those deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM

My point is, Ed, that Hamas cannot prevent Israel from firing a rocket at the beach. But Israel could easily have prevented it by not firing the rocket. To put it any other way marks you out as an Israel regime apologist. Children killed by an Israeli bomb are killed because Israelis fired the bomb. It was Israelis' choice to fire the bomb. No-one else's. It was a pointless, or worse, thing to do. Israel must account for deaths caused by Israelis firing rockets at Gaza. That may well be possible (though I have my doubts), but we won't get there until the people who fire the bombs that kill people accept that they are the ones who did the killing. That applies to rockets fired from Gaza OR from Israel. Someone was killed in Israel yesterday by a Hamas rocket. Should we say that Israel killed that person because, had they not beseiged Gaza, it would never have happened? I would have a lot of difficulty in saying that. But Israel apologists such as yourself appear to have little difficulty in applying a particular kind of double standard (because they think thy're right, of course. No - they KNOW they're right - mostly because Murdoch and AIPAC et al. told them!)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM

" I'm stating a fact that you and several other Israel apologists here seem to find a little uncomfortable."

Good try at the old brand him as as an enemy trick. It does not work, as I take this more seriously than taking sides, and cheering for my chosen team, and demonizing thevother, as if it were the world cup.

As I stated here earlier, it takes to tango, and neither side is innocent - each has a responsibility for protecting citizens and making an effort to secure a peace, or at a minimum, a cease fire. It serves no worthwhile purpose to attempt to demononize either side on a music website, while ignoring the responsibilities and the role either side has played and still does. More importantly, such an attempt would surely be seen as not reasonable nor logical. We are logical people, capable of more than that in discussion, are we not?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 06:42 PM

I've dealt with that already, you twit.

(Bejaysus, I've accidentally responded to Mr Shitferbrains. Hey, Mr Shitferbrains, do you still think I'm the 2009 troll? :-) )

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 06:13 PM

Steve the Guy: "You want facts, so here's an inconvenient one for you. Hamas does not kill its own civilians."

Right!!..They need them for shields, counting on the rest of the world would see them as valuable people!

(Leghorn Foghorn voice):
"Yo' Head may be shaped like a light bulb...but you ain't very bright."

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM

Have another ten bottles of beer, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 06:11 PM

""how many children were playing on the beach when the Israelis targeted them earlier today, killing them all?""......and could the Hamas government, responsible to protect its citizens, prevented it by stoping the launching of rockets towards Israel yesterday -long enough to even consider the terms of the Egyptian sponsored crease fire?

But the children on the beach, and the people in the old folks' home, and the guys watching the World Cup in a coffee bar, were killed by Israelis. Israeli bombs and bullets. I'm not being emotional in telling you that, am I? I'm stating a fact that you and several other Israel apologists here seem to find a little uncomfortable. You may kill someone and you may be justified in so doing. But if you kill someone you need to have the bravery and the honesty to say that you killed them, not someone else. And you should be able to justify the killings. Now, as for the latter point, what about those children, those old people and those football fans...?

Anyone remember why the yanks quietly stopped talking about "collateral damage"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 06:04 PM

Musket, you are one sick Bastturd. This is all a game to you. Perform an indecent act on yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 06:03 PM

There is less point in arguing with those that support Hamas in killing their own civilians and committing crimes against humanity by mass anti-personnel rocket attacks against Israeli civilians. But there is no harm in putting the FACTS out there, and letting people know that there ARE two sides to the conflict.

I have picked which one I support.

Some have picked the other side, and I have my opinion of them.

You want facts, so here's an inconvenient one for you. Hamas does not kill its own civilians. Much as it might give you indigestion, each and every death in Gaza has been caused by an Israeli gun or an Israeli bomb, set off in every single case by an Israeli. Had Israel not fired that gun or exploded that bomb, there would have been no death. It is not possible, once that death has occurred, to say that Hamas killed that person.

As for "your opinion of them", I should like to suggest that you confine your "opinion" to what is being said and is not, instead, directed at the person. The latter stance is precisely the reason that conflicts such as this one are ten times harder to resolve.

It might also be more constructive if you were to tell us why "you have picked the one you support". That's quite hard work, isn't it, compared to your undeniable and rather lazy display of prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 04:55 PM

""how many children were playing on the beach when the Israelis targeted them earlier today, killing them all?""......and could the Hamas government, responsible to protect its citizens, prevented it by stoping the launching of rockets towards Israel yesterday -long enough to even consider the terms of the Egyptian sponsored crease fire?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 04:40 PM

Let's all play a game.

For ten points, how many children were playing on the beach when the Israelis targeted them earlier today, killing them all?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM

Oops, meant "errors in logic" not "failurs in logic" in my last post.

Needed to say that before the few "language nitpickers" shot everything down I stated, based on an obvious error.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM

""As much of a pain in the arse Hamas is, without them Israel would have a totally free hand to do what it wants - more settlements, more incursions, more humiliation, more slaughter of civilians ""

That is an interesting perspective, and possibly a "failurs in logic" trap that good thinkers fall into. It is just as likely that Hamas provides most of the fuel to justify extreme actions by the Israel polititions and military, buffering the voices of the moderates within the Israel society.

The PLO once had a similar approach, which merged into a more moderate Fatah. Most progress towards peace and respectful co-existance likely came from moderates, not from extreme militants. It is likely that, at one point, militant activity by the PLO may have moved the Israeli center viewpoint a bit, stimulating more compromise from Israel due to international recognizition of the plight of the Palestinians. However, current militant activity from Hamas may be driven by another agenda from outside, and could have an opposite impact?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:57 PM

OK, Jim, I got that...but where did YOU get that from? Not being in-courteous.. but....ummm...you know...One has to ask, when you have 'creative' people, who are into writing on forums, and can't tell the difference between art and life, without the imitation....as opposed to righting.
So, the polite question would be, "Where is the Hell did you get THAT!?"

....or, can you cite a source...which I already asked you....(it's not that I'm doubting you...it's just that I have my doubts.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:52 PM

There are FACTS that could be agreed to.

Hamas controlled areas are launching anti-personnel rockets from Gaza at Israeli civilians.

Israel is striking at the launch, storage ,and control sites of those rockets in Gaza.

There are Palestinian civilians are being killed.

The Israelis are warning the Palestinians before they attack.

Hamas has been telling Gazans not to leave target sites.



If these cannot be agreed upon, there is no further point in this thread. What each indicates is up to the reader to interpret through their own opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM

What exactly "the truth" when it comes to this conflict? I see alot of differing perspectives, blame, and opinions termed truths- depending on which team "the agents of truth are rooting for". However, the truth seems to be one of the very early causalities. It is odd how many people seem to have direct access to "the truth" from a keyboard in their study.

From what I can determine, the UN seems to lay part of the blame on both sides.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon  

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Q,

"There is little point in arguing with a militant supporters of Israel expansion."

Are you saying that asking for the same rights for the 820,000 Jewish Arab refugees as is being demanded for the 640,000 Muslim Arab refugees is an indication that I am "militant supporter of Israel expansion"

What does that say about those asking for Palestinian "rights"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:29 PM

There is less point in arguing with those that support Hamas in killing their own civilians and committing crimes against humanity by mass anti-personnel rocket attacks against Israeli civilians.

But there is no harm in putting the FACTS out there, and letting people know that there ARE two sides to the conflict.

I have picked which one I support.

Some have picked the other side, and I have my opinion of them.

Others may be trying to determine were the truth is- and IMO they are not getting that truth from those opposed to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:25 PM

There is little point in arguing with militant supporters of Israel expansion.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

Q,

"The world is faced with more refugees needing the necessities of life from the world's coffers, but more importantly a people loses all hope as their lands disappear."

You mean like the 820,000 Jews (vice 640,000 Palestinian Arabs) driven from Arab lands that
lost everything?


THEY were settled ( 540,000 in Israel, the rest mostly in the US) UNLIKE the Palestinian Arabs, that were kept in camps by other Arabs.

Where were the demands for a Palestinan state when Jordan had control of the West Bank, and rendered it "Jew-Free"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM

The Israelis are clearing out northern Gaza, leaving 100,000 homeless.

Slowly, but surely, any possibility of a nation for the Palestinian peoples is being destroyed as the Israeli government pursues its policy of eventually gaining the whole of Palestine.

The world is faced with more refugees needing the necessities of life from the world's coffers, but more importantly a people loses all hope as their lands disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM

Of course, Steve, it is cynical. It is cynical of Hamas to place their rocket launchers amongst its populace knowing it will not deter Israel from taking out those sites. If Hamas wanted to protect its civilians, even one person, they would not so. It is cynical of you to try to put a better face on that action in any way..

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

"I was referring to you spiel about the Israelis using human shields"
You are quite capable of checking for yourself - there are examples of Israel both using children as shields, and of them launching rockets from the schoolyard of a kindergaten, along with photographs of both - try the 'Christians for Peace site.
I'm a bit fed up with providing links only to have the information they contain disappear into th ether, never to be referred to again.
As much of a pain in the arse Hamas is, without them Israel would have a totally free hand to do what it wants - more settlements, more incursions, more humiliation, more slaughter of civilians - who knows, maybe a replay of Sabra/Shatila to solve the refugee crisis once and for all.
Interestingly, the suggestion of an international boycott of Israeli goods has appeared in the our press sever times lately - not much, but it did help bring Apartheid South Africa to its knees eventually.
Garden calls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:10 AM

Hamas probably calculates that more deaths will prompt Western governments to pressure Israel to grant Hamas's demands.

Well yes, calculations may take place (I'd avoid "probably" actually). But on both sides. How would you like it if I claimed that Israel's calculation is that they can kill and kill and kill until the west threatens sanctions? Now I don't happen to think that myself, but it's no less plausible than your contention that Hamas wants more and more of its own people killed. Hamas is answerable to its own people and the wider middle east, just as Israel is answerable to its own people. You seem to be of the Netanyahu persuasion that persistent demonising somehow helps the cause. It doesn't, and, worse, it's very likely to be predicated on lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM

It was the "killing as many Palestinians as possible" bit that I challenged. It's clearly nonsense and to challenge it is hardly cynical.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

"Why would Hamas insist on continuing the fight when it is faring so poorly? The only plausible answer is stomach-turning: The Islamic movement calculates that it can win the concessions it has yet to obtain from Israel and Egypt not by striking Israel but by perpetuating the killing of its own people in Israeli counterattacks. More than 200 people, including a number of children, have already died in Gaza; Hamas probably calculates that more deaths will prompt Western governments to pressure Israel to grant Hamas's demands."

Hamas is playing a dangerous game with Gazan lives

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

-The use of human shields is an attempt to stop your adversary from shooting, not "kill as many Palestinians as possible". My point is to put you right on this, not to defend the use of human shields:-Steve Shaw

This is a cynical distinction without a difference! Hamas knows that by putting Palestinians in harms way, some number of them will be killed when Israel tries to take out the launch sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

So, "senior Hamas spokesman", eh, bobad? And what would one of those be? I've tried to find out about this Sami Abu chap of yours and that's the only description of him I can find. As far as I can see, "spokesman" is as far as it goes for him. I wonder whether that's a self-assumed title... That, together with the indecipherable images in your link, makes the human shield example you're trying to convince us of just about as persuasive as footage of the Loch Ness Monster. Got anything better?

Steve Shaw (senior atheist spokesman) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM

Bad dodge, Jim....and I was referring to you spiel about the Israelis using human shields.

Nope, I'm afraid this is only going to get bloodier and bloodier.
As far as what do the Palestinians do...they should tell Hamas to fuck off, and get out of their lives and neighborhoods!..and quit using their hospitals and churches/mosques to launch attacks from! How many times are the fringe radicals going to keep doing this, expecting different results? How long is Israel going to put up with swatting angry bees away from them, before they decide to go for the whole hive? How long is is going to be, before Israel launches against Iran? How long are the Arabs going to be at war with EVERYONE, including all their fucking little factions, warlords, and religious interpretations of 'infidels'??
If Hamas, or their 'funders' would spend a fraction of the money on helping the Palestinians, building infrastructure, and developing the lands that have been conceded to them, instead of digging tunnels and fortifying, maybe they'd ALL be better off...but instead they have to NOT let go of their hatred and attack ISRAEL, while simultaneously endanger the very people whom they CLAIM...well wait a minute, who even says that Hamas 'represents' those people they are using for human shields, or are even 'on their side'?..They bow and scrape to Iran...not Palestinians...shit, I'd tell them to 'get outta' Dodge'..because, in reality, they haven't done diddly-squat for the very people that they are using for shields and propaganda...and why not??..Their too busy trying to kill people for Allah!...whether they be Israelis or other groups who are also trying to kill anyone and anything, for Allah....These are not very bright or peaceful people, folks!...and if anyone wanted to help them, you'd think they'd help them to settle down, don't ya' think?
...but then there are others, who'd rather have them trying to kill, while being killed, just to satisfy THEIR hatred!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM

It just goes to show that you have your theories, just like a lot of other people, depending on whose side you're on. What you don't have is truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM

Ed T-- [-] response to your post

Since Hamas is the Gaza governing body, and (as it sets the targets) is it not reasonable to speculate it has within its power to create safe zones [Yes it Would. But they Don't], areas where they will not shoot rockets from [They don't seem to have such areas], is the onus not with Hamas (not Israel) to protect its citizens? [One would would think so, yes?]

The targets seem to be the buildings from where rockets are fired at Israel by Hamas. Is it not reasonable to speculate that it is likely that the resident of the militarized home, and even neighbours,would know this, and see the building as a potental target, espevially [sic] after a rocket is fired from the location.

I make the above suggestion based an asdumption[sic. You know what they say about assumptions.] that Hamas is not intentionally putting its citizens at risk to score political points [Evidence does not support your assumption]. It would be rare to have a governing body that would have such a lack of compassionate concerns for its innocent citizens welfare [Perhaps, but not unknown by a long shot-no pun intended], and would intentionally use them as military fodder [Just gos to show that governments are not always acting in the best/immediate interests of the governed.]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

"I make the above suggestion based an asdumption that Hamas is not intentionally putting its citizens at risk to score political points"

Then you would be wrong: Hamas tells Palestinian civilians to place themselves in the line of fire

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:08 AM

But Hamas would rather use human shields and kill as many Palestinians as possible.

Do stay rational. If Hamas is using human shields who are then killed, the killing was done by those who do the shooting, not Hamas. If you know that your adversary is using human shields but you fire anyway, you are knowingly killing innocent people. You can't claim that your enemy killed people who died by your bombs and bullets. You did the killing and you'd better have a better defence than claiming that they did it all along. Of course, you may feel you've found out afterwards that human shields were used, but you would then have difficulty proving your human shield contention in any case. The first casualty of war is truth. The use of human shields is an attempt to stop your adversary from shooting, not "kill as many Palestinians as possible". My point is to put you right on this, not to defend the use of human shields: putting innocent people in harm's way deliberately is indefensible. But I think that many people use the human shield argument far too readily. Including you, as you do not even understand the concept at all by the looks of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:01 AM

"It would be rare to have a governing body that would have such a lack of compassionate concerns for its innocent citizens welfare, and would intentionally use them as military fodder."

Yet, from the instructions from Hamas for civilians to stay in place after given direct warnings by Israel that they are in a military target, this is the case with Hamas at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:52 AM

Where should GAZA citizens go?

Since Hamas is the Gaza governing body, and (as it sets the targets) is it not reasonable to speculate it has within its power to create safe zones, areas where they will not shoot rockets from, is the onus not with Hamas (not Israel) to protect its citizens?

The targets seem to be the buildings from where rockets are fired at Israel by Hamas. Is it not reasonable to speculate that it is likely that the resident of the militarized home, and even neighbours,would know this, and see the building as a potental target, espevially after a rocket is fired from the location.

I make the above suggestion based an asdumption that Hamas is not intentionally putting its citizens at risk to score political points. It would be rare to have a governing body that would have such a lack of compassionate concerns for its innocent citizens welfare, and would intentionally use them as military fodder.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM

Perhaps they can be temporarily housed in the real estate projects in Saudi Arabia, Syria and Dubai that have been funded by Hamas with the money they stole from the citizens of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:04 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Hundreds of Palestinian families, their children crying, fled Wednesday, as Israel ordered tens of thousands of residents of border areas to evacuate their neighborhoods.

On Wednesday morning, hundreds of residents of Zeitoun and Shijaiyah were seen walking in the streets, carrying small bags with belongings. Older children carried smaller ones, in their arms or on their backs. Some of the women and children cried, looking terrified.

The Wafa Rehabilitation Center in Shijaiyah, which cares for 15 disabled and elderly patients, received several calls demanding the patients evacuate, said its director, Basman Ashi. He said an Israel shell hit near the building, causing damage to the second floor, but no injuries. Ashi said he won't evacuate because his elderly patients have nowhere to go.

The Palestinian death toll in nine days of fighting rose to 204, with some 1,450 wounded, Palestinian health officials said. On the Israeli side, one man was killed and several people were wounded since the fighting erupted on July 8.


So again I ask: Where, precisely, does Israel expect these ejected refugee families to go?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM

"So, what would you do??"
You've had my ideas GFI - if you are in any way interested - read them
References - were the hell would I get references for my opinions, you've had enough references, from Einstein down to Chomsky, which you either ignore or pass off as "anti-Semitic -what chance does a poor gi#rl like me have in this wicked world!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:44 AM

So, what would you do??

and, can you provide a reliable reference?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:40 AM

"But Hamas would rather use human shields and kill as many Palestinians as possible."
Israel has been using human shield in the correct sense throughout the conflict.
Israeli troops placed children in front of military vehicles and forced them to walk in front of them when entering unknown territory - it was condemned by the U.N. for doing so.
During one of Israel's incursions into Gazan civilian areas, on the way to konck down a few homes, it set up missile launching bases in schoolyards - 'Christians for Peace' representatives described how they carred kindergarten children out of the range of the fighting, particularly to save them from being blinded by the tear gas.   
Bombing civilian, non-combatant area and slaughtering civilians in order to stop rocket attacks is an extreme case of using helpless human beings for military objectives.
Threatening, "if YOU don't stop firing rockets, we'll kill THEM and destroy THEIR homes, is human-shielding in the extreme.
Whining about one side using 'human shields' while ignoring the fact that the team they are cheering for is doing the exactly the same thing in spades is partisan bullshit.   
This is a shitty war being fought by shitty people led by shitty politicians - and being supported by inhuman agenda- pushers.
Dirty hands all round.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:11 PM

DR tawfik hamid about the suffering of palestinian because of the HAMAS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:55 PM

I realize that Fatah and Hamas recently agreed to reconciliation, and that this caused concern for Israel, hampering the overall peace process- as part of the agreement did not require Hamas to agree with Fatah, that Israel has the right to exist.

My question is related to the relationsihp between Israel and the Fatah government and area. Hamas seems to overshadow Fatah and its area in the news. Has Israel and Fatah shot bombs at each other in recent years? Is the standard of living, employment, and freedoms much better in the Fatah area, than the Hamas (Gaza) area? If so, is there something to be learned from the different approaches that Fatah and Gaza takes with tge relationship with Israel? Or, is it not related?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM

You guys are talking around each other and not even on the same thing with regard hot fire incidents.

Israel will negotiate a cease fire with Gaza/Hamas, such as the one Egypt offered today/yesterday that Israel had accepted. Hamas refused for whatever reason they're offering at any given moment. Israel has participated in cease fires in in every other hot incidents; to the best of my memory it has always been the other side rejecting or breaking cease fires.

The above is NOT TO BE CONFLATED with negotiating a final peace treaty. Israel's position is that it will not negotiate a final peace treaty, unless the right of a Jewish Israel (allowing for the right of non-Jews to live there also) is recognized by Hamas, especially, and the PA and Arab nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 05:16 PM

Gaza Families Near Israeli Border Struggle to Build a Life in the Heart of a Conflict
New York Times JULY 14, 2014   By ANNE BARNARD

GAZA CITY — In 2008, Umm Samer Marouf fled the northern Gaza Strip under Israeli bombardments that destroyed her family's house and strawberry fields and left her deep in debt. Now, she and her seven children have fled again, from their half-built replacement home, and wonder if it, too, will be demolished.

"They should kill us all at once or resolve this for good, not shoot at us every two years," Ms. Marouf, 42, said Monday at a shelter in Gaza City, a United Nations elementary school where it seemed as if her whole neighborhood had moved, kite-flying children, drying laundry, family squabbles and all.

Some Recent Deaths:

6 people killed on Tuesday when two missiles struck the house of a man said to be an Islamic Jihad commander.

3 killed when war- planes targeted a car on Thursday. The three were said to be members of Al-Quds Brigades.

9 killed when a missile struck a cafe Wednesday night where about a dozen locals had gathered to watch the World Cup. Israeli military said the target was a single terrorist.

8 killed, including six children, when war-planes targeted their house on Thursday in Khan Younis refugee camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 05:15 PM

As far as the available evidence from your posts, you qualify for all.

I've won the Delusional BullshitBruce Trifecta! Which, considering the source, I will wear as a badge of honor.

Thanks, Bullshit!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:46 PM

Steve Shaw: "That is not correct, Michael. The Israeli regime has declared that it will not negotiate with Hamas until Hamas declares that Israel has a right to exist and stops firing rockets. The Israeli regime knows full well that those conditions will not be met."


"....The Israeli regime has declared that it will not negotiate with Hamas until Hamas declares that Israel has a right to exist and stops firing rockets."

Israel is a recognized country...so, I have to ask, the 'avoiders' of common sense, this question again...which they REFUSE to answer, and instead give us a bunch of bigoted, hate rhetoric....

"What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?"

and add this to it...

"What should Israel DO after the peace negotiations have been refused by Hamas, who do NOT want to recognize Israel's right to exist, and who want to continue to fire missiles into Israel?"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM

GregF,

As far as the available evidence from your posts, you qualify for all.

You must be SOOOOOOOOOOO proud of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

"United Nations
On January 18, 2009, United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon said "for the sake of the people of Gaza, I urge in the strongest possible terms Hamas to stop firing rockets."[210] On January 20, while visiting Sderot, the Secretary General called the rocket attacks "appalling and unacceptable". He added that the projectiles are indiscriminate weapons, and that Hamas attacks are violations of basic humanitarian law.[211] Earlier, in November 2007, Ban had condemned a rocket attack launched from a UN-run Gaza school.[212]

On February 17, 2008, John Holmes, United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator said while visiting Sderot, "The people of Sderot and the surrounding area have had to live with these unacceptable and indiscriminate rocket attacks for seven years now. There is no doubt about the physical and psychological suffering these attacks are causing. I condemn them utterly and call on those responsible to stop them now without conditions".[213]

Following a July 30, 2010, Palestinian Grad missile attack on the heart of Ashkelon, United Nations Middle East envoy Robert Serry said that indiscriminate rocket fire against civilians was completely unacceptable, and constituted a terrorist attack.[214]

United States
In July 2008 Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said: "If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."[215] On December 28, 2008, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in a statement: "the United States strongly condemns the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel".[216] On March 2, 2009 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemned the attacks.[217]

European Union
On June 7, 2005, The European Union presidency, held by Luxembourg, condemned the firing of rockets by Palestinians at Gush Katif in the Gaza Strip and against Sderot.[218] In January 2009, European Union Aid Commissioner Louis Michel said "Launching rockets at civilians is a terrorist action, which has to be strongly denounced."[219]

Human rights groups
The attacks have been condemned as war crimes, both because they usually target civilians and because the weapons' inaccuracy would disproportionately endanger civilians even if military targets were chosen. Human Rights Watch has also condemned the attackers for firing from near residential structures, thus putting Gazan civilians at unnecessary risk.[33] According to Israeli human rights group B'Tselem,

Palestinian organizations that fire Qassam rockets openly declare that they intend to strike, among other targets, Israeli civilians. Attacks aimed at civilians are immoral and illegal, and the intentional killing of civilians is a grave breach under the Fourth Geneva Convention, a war crime, and cannot be justified, whatever the circumstances. Furthermore, Qassam rockets are themselves illegal, even when aimed at military objects, because the rockets are so imprecise and endanger civilians in the area from which the rockets are fired as well as where they land, thus violating two fundamental principles of the laws of war: distinction and proportionality.[220]"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:31 PM

we know that YOU, GregF,

There ya go with the "we" business again. Is that the royal we, or are you talking about you & Boo?

By the way, BullshitBruce, you really do need to decide whether I'm a Racist, an Anti-Semite, or a Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

"The firing of rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel has been opposed by those living closest to the firing location due to Israeli military responses. On July 23, 2004 a family attempted to physically prevent the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades from setting up a rocket launcher outside their house. Members of the brigade shot and killed one boy and wounded 5 others.[202][203][204][205]"



"Misfired rockets have also killed and injured Palestinians within the Gaza Strip. However, due to harsh restrictions in information politics and a total lack of free press in the Gaza strip, precisely reporting the number of Palestinian victims is impossible. As far as it became known, the missiles, rockets and mortars have killed six Palestinians and injured dozens more. On June 8, 2005, rockets fired at the Israeli settlement of Ganei Tal killed two Palestinian workers and one Chinese worker in a packing plant. On August 2, 2005, a rocket apparently launched by Islamic Jihad killed a 6-year-old boy and his father in Beit Hanoun.[33] On December 26, 2008 a mortar aimed at Israel killed two Palestinian girls in the Gaza Strip, aged 5 and 12.[134]
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM

"Khaled Jaabari, Gaza commander of the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades, said that the group uses Google Earth to determine targets.[101] Rocket fire occasionally occurs in the early morning when children head to school.[102][103]

A source close to Hamas described the movement's tactic of launching projectiles from between homes during the 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict: "They fired rockets in between the houses and covered the alleys with sheets so they could set the rockets up in five minutes without the planes seeing them. The moment they fired, they escaped, and they are very quick."[104] Videos released by Hamas in 2011 show Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. According to Yedioth Aharonoth journalist Elior Levy, "Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists' purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza".[105]

It has been documented, that Arab terrorist groups and Hamas placed weapons and missile launchers in densely populated areas.[106] Human Rights Watch issued a report condemning the firing of Kassam rockets as "war crimes", stating "None of these rockets can be reliably aimed… Such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures… Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have frequently violated the laws of war by firing rockets from within populated areas…"[22] Indiscriminate attacks on civilians and civilian structures that do not discriminate between civilians and military targets are illegal under international law.[22][23]"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

"Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. As of November 2012, the attacks have killed 64 people, mostly civilians, and injured thousands, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.[1] Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage.[2][3][4] A public opinion poll conducted in March 2013 found that most Palestinians do not support firing rockets at Israel from the Gaza Strip.[5]

The weapons, often generically referred to as Qassams, were initially crude and short-range, mainly affecting Sderot and other communities bordering the Gaza Strip. However, in 2006 more sophisticated rockets began to be deployed, reaching the larger coastal city of Ashkelon, and by early 2009 major cities Ashdod and Beersheba had been hit by Katyusha, WS-1B[6] and Grad rockets.[7] In 2012, Jerusalem and Israel's commercial center Tel Aviv were targeted with locally made "M-75" and Iranian Fajr-5 rockets, respectively,[8] and in July 2014, the northern city of Haifa was targeted for the first time.[9] A few projectiles have contained white phosphorus.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16]

Attacks have been carried out by all Palestinian armed groups,[17] and, prior to the 2008–2009 Gaza War, were consistently supported by most Palestinians,[18][19][20][21] although the stated goals have been mixed. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Indiscriminate attacks on civilians and civilian structures that do not discriminate between civilians and military targets are illegal under international law.[22][23]"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

Al Jazeera published a list of those killed in Gaza. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html. The majority are combatant aged males. In 2009 Hamas admitted, after several months, that 80% of the dead in that conflict were Hamas combatants.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM

But Hamas would rather use human shields and kill as many Palestinians as possible.


From your posts, we know that YOU, GregF, do not care about Palestinian deaths except as a way of attacking Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM

"Taking Sderot as a case study, Kaplan and Zucker applied shrapnel/casualty and spatial allocation models to the population of the town to estimate casualties per randomly aimed rocket fired in the absence of civil defenses.

With civil defense measures in place, Sderot sustained 5,000 rockets between 2001 and 2010, and 90 percent of residents experienced a rocket landing on their street or on the one adjacent to theirs. But 10 residents were killed during this time, and less than 500 sustained injuries.

A Sderot lacking civil defenses, the researchers found, in "an intermediate daytime scenario, would result in 75 rather than 10 deaths in Sderot between 2001 and 2010," the researchers found.

"The results were very clear," Kaplan told the Post. "In the best case, there would be three times as many casualties as observed in Sderot. In the worst case, there would be nine times as many casualties. In the intermediate case – which we would argue best describes 'a day in the life of Sderot' – there would be seven times as many casualties.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:42 PM

"According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS), at the end of 2011 the city had a total population of 24,000.[1] The city has been an ongoing target of Qassam rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip since 2001.

Sderot is located less than a mile from Gaza (the closest point is 840 m).[2] Rocket attacks on the city have killed 13 Israelis, wounded dozens, caused millions of dollars in damage and profoundly disrupted daily life.[3] Studies have found that air raid sirens and explosions have caused severe psychological trauma in some residents.[4] From mid-June 2007 to mid-February 2008, 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs were fired at Sderot and the western Negev, an average of three or four each a day.[5] Popular for having numerous Bomb shelters some of which are built in the form of Children's Play areas in school play grounds, Sderot is infamously referred to as The "Bomb Shelter Capital of the World.""

Now, how about the smiles and cheers of Palestinians as those rockets are launched at israeli civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

How many dead in the town of Sderot from rockets, BB?

And do look at the joy on the faces of the Israelis in the photo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM

No mention of the photo in that article of the house in that town with a hole in it from a Hamas rocket?


"Explaining that he has also previously witnessed Palestinians cheering news of bombings that killed Israelis, Mr. Sørensen said that, in a war, "this is what happens." Civilians and fighters on both sides, he said, "go through a process of dehumanizing the enemy.""

Or the comments by the author that he understood the people in the town had been under constant rocket attack for the last 14 years?

"When he was a candidate for the American presidency in 2008, then-Senator Barack Obama visited the town and saluted "the brave citizens" of Sderot while standing in front of a collection of spent rockets that had been fired at them from Gaza. He was also presented with an "I Love Sderot" T-shirt that channeled the dark humor of the residents, with the image of a heart on its front pierced by a rocket."

"Mr. Sørensen, who stressed that he has "a complete understanding of what the people of Sderot have been going through for 14 years," attributed the particularly vitriolic response to his Twitter report to the climate in Israel since three young religious students were kidnapped and murdered in the occupied West Bank last month. The journalist called the "extreme incitement to violence from very right-wing Israeli groups unprecedented" in the many years he has been reporting from the region."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:02 PM

A video showing Palestinians chanting "Allahu Akbar" a few days ago, as they watched rockets fired from Gaza into Israel.



popcorn for both sides, unfortunately 

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

Looks Like they're having an absolutely GREAT tme! Pass the popcorn, please!

Israelis Watch Bombs Drop on Gaza From Front-Row Seats

JULY 14, 2014
By ROBERT MACKEY

Last Wednesday night, as he stood on a hilltop outside the Israeli town of Sderot and watched the bombardment of Gaza on the plain below, a Danish newspaper reporter snapped an iPhone photo of about a dozen locals who cheered on their military from plastic chairs while eating popcorn.

Allan Sørensen, a veteran Middle East correspondent for Denmark's Kristeligt Dagblad, then uploaded the image to Twitter with a sardonic caption that described the macabre scene as "Sderot cinema."
Continue reading the main story

The image of the Israeli spectators was taken after 9 p.m. local time on Wednesday, the reporter said, about the same time that what was intended to be a "precision strike" from Israel's military killed at least eight of their Palestinian neighbors, seated in similar plastic chairs at a beachside cafe in Gaza, waiting to watch the World Cup semifinal between Argentina and the Netherlands.

As his image reverberated around the social network, where it was shared more than 10,000 times, the reporter was surprised by the response. It was, he said in a telephone interview from Israel, "nothing new." Similar scenes, of Israeli spectators gathered on the high ground above Gaza to view the destruction below, were documented in a Times of London article and a video report from Denmark's TV2 during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.



PHOTO HERE

Photo:
Israelis gathered on a hilltop outside the town of Sderot on Monday to watch the bombardment of Gaza. Credit Lefteris Pitarakis/Associated Press

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

About the ceasefire that Hamas rejected ( so that more Palestinians will die):

"It's also important to note that the Arab League, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas (who heads Hamas' rival Fatah), and the United States all endorsed the proposal.

Why Israel accepted it

Despite rejection of the ceasefire by two right-leaning members in Israel's cabinet, there was no reason for Israel not to accept it.

What now?

Hamas will continue to fire rockets and Israel will likely continue to respond with airstrikes and possibly a ground invasion if things get bad. Until Hamas finds a way to declare some kind of victory, it will continue to fight.

In a statement on Tuesday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered this assessment:

If Hamas rejects the Egyptian proposal and the rocket fire from Gaza does not cease, and that appears to be the case, we are prepared to continue and intensify our operation."
Hamas launched over 50 rockets from Gaza into Israel into the afternoon while Israel held its fire. The Israeli cessation is reportedly over and they have resumed airstrikes."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:45 AM

"We" indicates anyone who bothers to read your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:44 AM

GregF,

I thought you could read-

Obviously I overestimated you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM

"Why do YOU keep defending that?"

Do you really have to ask?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

We know that YOU consider killing Jews "moral"

"We" do, BeardedBullshit? Fascinating.And predictably stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

Musket,

YOU are wrong.

You have not addressed any of the legal points, and merely made pronouncements from ignorance.





Hamas is legally responsible for their illegal bombardment, and their illegal use of human shields.


Why do YOU keep defending that? THAT is what is killing Palestinians.


Or is it that YOU want to see Palestinians killed, as long as you can ( wrongly) blame it on Israel? THAT is Hamas's reason for their refusal to stop, after Israel unilaterally accepted the cease-fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:34 AM

I rather think the murderers pressing the buttons from their safe military compounds or cockpits are morally responsible for the deaths don't you?

If you wish to spread it out, then add the Israeli government and their financial backers who blackmail the US government.

There is nothing legal about what Israel are doing. They have been told to stop, in fact were told not to start. It is war crime as it is neither defensive nor sanctioned by UN. Homes, schools, power sub stations and water supply establishments are not legitimate targets.

Netanyahu may as well book his court early to avoid disappointment in The Hague.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM

GregF,

We know that YOU consider killing Jews "moral", but the rest of us do not ( with the probable exception of Jim).

What the Israelis are doing is far more moral than the requirements of the law.

What Hamas is doing is both a war crime, and is immoral by any reasonable standard.

So of course YOU support Hamas in using human shields and attacking civilian populations with mass antipersonnel rockets.

After all, it is only Jews and Palestinians being killed or threatened- neither of which seems to bother you and Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM

Rather fatuous application of "morality"[sic]there, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:12 AM

"Well, BB, there's technical legality, and then there's practical morality...... "

Agreed! That is precisely why Hamas bears moral responsibility for the death and injury of every single citizen of Gaza. If they had not initiated the present situation there would not have been one single casualty.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:07 AM

Well, BB, there's technical legality, and then there's practical morality......

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

Musket,

The PALESTINIAN Authority signed the Geneva Conventions.
Hamas is now part of THAT government.

Israel's attacks on the launchers ARE NOT aimed at civilians- they were warned, and ANY such civilian casualties is as a result of the WAR CRIME OF HAMAS USING HUMAN SHIELDS and locating military sites in civilian areas, against the Geneva Conventions.




Israel is acting legally, whether YOU like it or not.

Hamas is guilty of war crimes, whether YOU like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:04 AM

Hamas can't sign The Geneva Convention, because they aren't a country, silly cunt. In government, they can sign but that's like saying The Conservative Party signed the Geneva Convention but Labour didn't.

If bombing civilians is legal, then the holocaust was for the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM

" It is Hamas who say they won't negotiate with Israel, NOT vice versa."
'Fraid not Mike - Israel has stated that they will not negotiate with Hamas - it was part of their excuse for behaving as they did following the breakdown of the last peace talks.
"The attacks against Hamas rocket launchers are acknowledged as legal"
The attacks against the Palestinian civilian population are not recognised as legal and are now being described as verging on War Crimes by the United Nations.
"According to the LAW, Israel would be within it's rights to continue the present bombing campaign indefinitely"
No it wouldn't, but it will continue to do so anyway unless outside intervention prevents it from doing so.
As far as The United Nations and war crimes is concerned, Israel has relied on the U.S. vetoing condemnatory resolutions in order to stay out of the human rights courts, though wether they will continue to do so remains to be seen..
The situation is comparable to Russia and China using their veto to protect Syria.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:13 AM

""I think Hamas is wrong to fail to recognise Israel, but that is a red herring.""

One persons red herring could, well be, another persons bluefin tuna. I suspect issues may seem quite different from the lenses of those involved directly in this never-ending and unfortunate (for civilians) conflict.

IMO, Much of the discussion on this issue rests on the assumption that one's own biases and arguments calibrate to "normal" and those seeing things differently fall on the other side of the scale.

""One man's centrism is another's extremism"". The challenge of identifying "neutral", and unbiased perspective remains a non-trivial problem - with an elusive resolution. Assuming, one finds it's necessary to take sides in a complex conflict, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM

"You tell me what Israel is doing that is legal under international law and their obligations under membership of The UN. Your answer will be much shorter. "

The attacks against Hamas rocket launchers are acknowledged as legal.

IF Israel were to invade Gaza, to apprehend the Hamas individuals responsible for the rockets ( to bring them to trial for crimes against humanity) and to destroy the remaining rockets and their launch sites, that would be legal.


According to the LAW, Israel would be within it's rights to continue the present bombing campaign indefinitely, as long as Hamas continues to launch rockets.


I have answered YOU:
So tell me what Hamas has done that is legal UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW and THEIR obligations HAVING SIGNED THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS????

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:41 AM

"According to the ceasefire proposal, after some 48 hours representatives of both Israel and Hamas will go to Cairo and work out the details of what is expected to be a more long-term deal. Israeli officials stressed that the Israeli team, which has not yet been named, will speak only with the Egyptians, and not with Hamas."


Israel accepts Egyptian ceasefire initiative to stop Gaza hostilities

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM

That is not correct, Michael. The Israeli regime has declared that it will not negotiate with Hamas until Hamas declares that Israel has a right to exist and stops firing rockets. The Israeli regime knows full well that those conditions will not be met. And, even if they were met, it's a good bet that Israel would find another way of not negotiating. And, even if the two sides ever sit down, Israel need not make a single concession. They have the full unconditional backing of the US, including the bankrolling of their military, no matter how many children or old people they bomb to hell or how much land they steal or how many resolutions they ignore.

The Israeli people are the only ones with the answer. They have to realise that they keep on electing regimes that can only perpetuate the insecurity which they endure. I think Hamas is wrong to fail to recognise Israel, but that is a red herring. Hamas also has to answer to its people and the wider middle east beyond. The non-recognition of Israel has to quietly slide away, as empty, nonsensical rhetoric often has a habit of doing (ask Ian Paisley). No-one has to capitulate. Waiting for someone to capitulate just gets more people killed.

In the meantime, Israeli regime apologists, consider what's going on with ordinary people in Gaza every day. Or turn the telly off. Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM

Jim -- Will you get it into your head, please? - as bobad has just pointed out ~~ It is Hamas who say they won't negotiate with Israel, NOT vice versa. So your last post might as well be written in Martian for all the sense it makes.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:32 AM

"Israel's cabinet said Tuesday morning it would accept an Egyptian proposal for a ceasfire with Hamas, after seven days of fighting, but Hamas was quick to reject the offer, resuming rocket salvos across the country. Earlier, two rockets hit the city of Eilat at Israel's southernmost tip on Monday night, lightly injuring four people in the first attack on the city since the Gaza campaign began."

Read more: Rocket shot at Haifa as Netanyahu threatens to step up Gaza op | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/ceasefire-proposed-after-a-week-of-israel-hamas-conflict/#ixzz37X2hjb5o
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM

If Israel says it won't negotiate where Hamas is involved, then Palestine is entitled to say that it won't negotiate with those responsible for what is happening at present - stalemate.
I have no brief whatever for Hamas or their behaviour in this, but they form the only resistance to Israel - without their actions, there is no opposition to Israeli aggression at the present time.
Refusing to negotiate with them is equal to refusing to negotiate with anybody who had anything to do with all those resistance groups fighting for The State of Israel - we may not be happy with how they went about thing, but they were very much a fact of life (or death).
Some of the old resistance fighters became heroes, even national leaders.
The situation is not unsimilar to what happened in Ireland in the 70s and 80s - I am no lover of the I.R.A., but I have no doubt that their presence brought Britain to the conference table and achieved some sort of peace.
Needs must.... and all that.
In my opinion, in the end, both have to agree to put the matter into the hands of the U.N - unless, of course, Egypt manages to pull something out of the hat - but that has only short term aims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:37 AM

Agreed, Jim. But "negotiation" with whom, will you please respond? Without Hamas being one of the parties, these negotiations will attain no viable or enforceable conclusion, because Hamas, over whom the other potential participants have no control, are the most essential of participants. And you know that isn't going to happen.

So what's your next principled but unattainable proposal, eh?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:15 AM

"But they have at least made some gestures towards negotiation,"
Gestures only - as long as nothing changed, which does not help the besieged Palestinian people one iota.
The last peace talks were deliberately sabotaged by the Israelis from day one.
You give no alternative other than the Palestinians surrender to Israeli aggression and return to the status quo - if there is anything we both know, it is that is is unacceptable and simply is not going to happen
Negotiation or genocide
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 03:42 AM

Just one more try -- for all the good it will do me! ---

I agree with pretty well all your criticisms of and animadversions against Israel, Jim. But they have at least made some gestures towards negotiation, however hedged about you find their offers -- which negotiation might well influence if it could just occur. Hamas, OTOH, have explicitly & aggressively rejected any such procedures. So whoever may sit at this table of yours, even "under the scrutiny of" the Lord Jesus Christ and "in full view of" the Lord God Almighty, it will be but a vain proceeding if Hamas are not party to it, because none of the other potential conferees can control them and they are really the only entity that matters.

You know this perfectly well -- so just, please, apply a bit of Sense And Sensibility to the matter, and stop declaiming platitudes like a demented Revd Mr Collins.

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:59 AM

"You're turning into a bit of a parrot, as well as an ostrich, Jim. "
Ss you are Mike - only you appear to have swallowed a copy of 'Pride and Prejudice'
"Tell Hamas"
And what - the Israelis will take down their Berlin walls, remove the blockade, stop building settlements, stop using heavy artillery, chemicals and bombs on homes hospitals and schools, stop truning israel into the Apartheid state it is becoming, stop ethnic cleansing the Bedouins....?
Yeah - sure they will!!
What Hamas is doing is stupid, counter-productive and futile; it is damaging to the Palestinian people - it is little more than "I may not be able to fight, but I can spit".
What Israel is doing is murderously inhuman - Israeli response is on well the way to being a major war crime against the civilian population of Gaza.   
Israel has shown over and over again, particularly during the last peace talks, that it has no interest in any negotiation that doesn't include continued expansion and continued military domination of the lands that both Arab and Jew have a right to - they are the aggressors here and their behaviour needs to be challenged - as far as I am concerned, the question belongs at the Conference table, under the scrutiny of the U.N. and in full view of the world.
Stop strutting around like a wannaby Mr Darcy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:59 AM

Watch the harrowing footage on BBC News then see if you can type that again Michael.

Every time Israel starts negotiating, American aid is threatened and within months, a more right wing approach is sought to appease the ultra orthodox and their Western backers.

That the Israeli military are having to churn out propaganda about surgical strikes that somehow don't cause collateral damage is testament to the more pragmatic Israeli public who are uncomfortable with theocratic approaches to peace and harmony.

Mind you, when you aim at schools, chances are you bomb them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:52 AM

'"What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?"
What they should have done on day one - go to the negotiating table'

.,,.

You're turning into a bit of a parrot, as well as an ostrich, Jim.

Once again: don't tell us; don't tell Israel...

Tell Hamas. Again. And see how far it gets you. Again.

The rest of the Arab countries can negotiate with Israel till they are all blue in the face. But they can't control Hamas, who are in fact the only entity worth considering, and who won't take a blind bit of notice. You know it perfectly well. So stop squawking "negotiate" like some sort of demented parrot.

Please.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM

Musket: "Ok Goofus. Kill hundreds of children indiscriminately?
Cause a refugee crisis and expect others to pick up the tab?.....blah blah, radda-cradda guff-guff...."

What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM

awareness of his pilots to the possibility of harming civilians.

Of COURSE they're "aware if it" - they're IMPLEMENTING it & heading for 200 as I type this.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:38 PM

Amid a rising chorus of condemnation of the steep civilian death toll in Gaza – there were 172 fatalities in total by Palestinian accounts as of Monday – a senior Israeli air force commander who has flown combat sorties all throughout the past week asserted that the fact-checking of possible targets and in-air awareness of his pilots to the possibility of harming civilians is unrivaled.

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"I don't think there's an equivalent anywhere in the world," said Lt. Col. T, the commander of a squadron of F-16Is, the air force's most advanced model of that aircraft. "And I am familiar with many other air forces."

Read more: 'Slightest doubt' cancels mission, says top Israeli pilot | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/slightest-doubt-cancels-mission-says-iaf-officer/#ixzz37U8ZVbj2
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

Ok Goofus. Kill hundreds of children indiscriminately?

Cause a refugee crisis and expect others to pick up the tab?

Tell you what Bruce. You tell me what Israel is doing that is legal under international law and their obligations under membership of The UN. Your answer will be much shorter.

On BBC news today, a 12 year old boy told of his school bombed and his father, a teacher there, killed by Israeli bombs. He asked the reporter who was to teach him now? The reporter had tears in her eyes, which was a bit of a coincidence.

Perhaps the more bloodthirsty members of Mudcat might reflect on what they cheer for?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 05:59 PM

Jim, and who should ensure that whatever negotiated lands conceded, won't be used to fortify, and launch another attack on Israel??...being as that IS the history..and who should take action, if they did launch??

Musket: "Any chance that the likes of beardedbruce could lay off for a while to allow for intelligent people to get a word in?"

Any chance that the likes of Musket could lay off attacking, for a while, to allow himself to say something intelligent, to get a real thought in, worth listening to?

Any chance that the likes of Greg F. could lay off avoiding by attacking, for a while, to allow himself to say something intelligent, to get a real thought in, worth listening to?


Here, contemplate this one.....we'll be awaiting a salient answer..

"OK, let's 'bottom line' this... What should Israel DO, in your opinion, after missiles are fired at them?"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:28 PM

Musket,

You have failed to point out any illegal acts by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM

Any chance that the likes of beardedbruce could lay off for a while to allow for intelligent people to get a word in?

I point out the criminal acts of the Israeli army and he takes it as me saying positive things about Hamas.

If you don't have the intelligence to get beyond "if he dislikes Israeli crime, he must support Palestinian crime" you aren't really up to debate. Bad enough Poobad without him gaining a glove puppet.

When does Keith come back from Jockland? At least he doesn't give his own views, largely through not having any...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM

"What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?"
What they should have done on day one - go to the negotiating table with an intetion of reaching a compromise with the Palestinians rather than a set shopping list.
The U.N. has suggested as much today and the only alternative seems to be a replay of the Holocaust - this time with Arabs as the victims and the Israelis as the perps.
We all know that Israel has the biggest conker in the playground; let's see if it has the nouse and humanity to accept that human beings come before scraps of paper drawn up by politicians who wanted out of Palestine at any cost.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM

In other words, GregF,

YOU refuse to engage in a reasonable discussion, and will not tell us what YOUR solution would be.

That is what I expect from you. No surprises here.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:35 PM

Go back to sleep, Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:00 PM

OK, let's 'bottom line' this...Greg or Jim, What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:54 PM

Jim would rather lie for no reason than to provide facts to support his own viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM

"As you have declared Chomsky antisemitic...."

I stopped reading right there because you are lying again with the first six words of your post so the remainder of your post has no credibility to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM

Sorry to disappoint you Jim.

YOU are the one who has been shown by your own posts here to be an anti-Semite by EU standards.

The others you mention have not posted here, so we cannot judge them.

"YOU have been judged, and found wanting."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:20 PM

"Carroll has time and again shown himself to be antisemitic"
As you have declared Chomsky antisemitic and have chosen to ignore Einstein completely, I revel in the company I find myself in.
You have yet to mention Haaretz, 'Jews for Justice', the ex heads of the Israeli Secret Service who condemned the Israeli regime in terms ranging from 'extremist' to 'Nazi', the Israeli servicemen who mounted an exhibition on the maltreatment of Palestinians in Dublin last month, the Israeli soldiers who have set up their own organisation to expose Israeli war crimes.... and all the other Jews who deplore what Israel is doing in the name of the Jewish people.
Israel certainly does seem to be producing a large number of 'Antisemites'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:35 PM

"And again, the tired old anti-Semitism cum Nazi card is played, demonstrating a dearth of valid argument."

No Greg, Carroll has time and again shown himself to be antisemitic as defined by the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC). That is easily verifiable by looking at his posting history. The fact that you repeatedly defend his vileness is revealing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:28 PM

Musket,

I admit I prefer those that do not commit war crimes. That means I dislike Hamas.

I have presented enough reports of what Israeli forces are doing to reduce civilian casualties that the statements here to the contrary require a lot more proof, or at least evidence, than has been presented to be of value in this discussion.

I admit that some here are supporters of those that declare their intent is to kill Jews. I dislike those people, and object when they lie about what I have said, or about what I believe.

If you have a problem with this, let me know-


And I will point at YOU and laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:24 PM

A transparent attempt to deflect from your own foul antisemitism - no one is fooled.

And again, the tired old anti-Semitism cum Nazi card is played, demonstrating a dearth of valid argument.

Boring. And silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:19 PM

Beardedbruce calls others liars for exposing his bigotry.

Let's all point and laugh.

After all, if I turn on BBC News, I'd probably not laugh at all....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

In conflict, as with sport, some folks favour one side, some the other. Each side mostly seek out the bad in the oposing team/side, not the good. In team sports, and with conflict, it is often difficult to divorce oneself from objectively viewing the favoued team/side. In this situation, those not favouring either side are viewed suspiciously by both sides. Unlike in conflict, few people, participants or spectators, die in sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM

"you continue to refer to 'Jews' rather than Israelis"

Are you claiming that Hamas is trying to kill Muslim Israelis as well as Jews? If you are I suggest you take a look at their so-called Charter.

"further proof of your Antisemitism."

A transparent attempt to deflect from your own foul antisemitism - no one is fooled.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:04 AM

Jim,

"
"Israel is targeting Hamas militants and their bomb-making machinery"
No they are not and do not have the capability of doing so, even if they wished to.
"


1. YOU have not provided any evidence for your present set of lies.

2. It is relatively say to locate individual homes- Gaza has directories.

3. It is even easier to trace back to the launch points of rockets- and attacks on those launch points are certainly in self-defense.


Are you stating that Israelis do not have a right to kill those that are trying to kill them?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM

#1492 (post) and the year Spain exiled the Jews and Moors (Muslems)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:50 AM

"Israel is targeting Hamas militants and their bomb-making machinery"
No they are not and do not have the capability of doing so, even if they wished to.
The claim to be targeting militant's homes, which, of course, includes their and their neighbour,s women and children - but in fact they are in fact destroying entire towns and villages in Northern Gaza.
So far, 10,000 residents have been forced to flee, with more to come.
"The problem simply put: no Jews are dying."
Not a problem , just a simple fact - so far, the now-approaching 200 deaths have all been Palestinians, a large number of those children.
In order to hide behind the six-million dead to excuse State terrorism, you continue to refer to 'Jews' rather than Israelis - further proof of your Antisemitism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM

"Israel is targeting Hamas militants and their bomb-making machinery which they hide in residential areas, in mosques, in hospitals and now carts in market-places. There are no rules of engagement amongst Hamas militants. There are no "Officers and Gentlemen" there. At the same time, Hamas is being given a pass for this cowardly behaviour. Why? Do the media give a free pass to the militants in Syria and Iraq who also have no desire to prevent civilian death?

American, Canadian and British media attack Israel, their sister in democracy. They all end their reports, voices dropping, with the words "And no deaths in Israel." As if there were something wrong with that. How dare Israel not suffer deaths from Hamas bombs!

They don't report that Israel spent billions building the Iron Dome or bomb shelters to protect her people from constant rocket attack from Gaza: years of random attacks on civilian centres-not military. They don't report that Hamas took all the money they received-from people like you and me in the West-supporting them through the UN and tax dollars, and spent it on military acquisitions, too many from Iran, rather than improving the lives of their people."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM

"No Israelis have been killed as a result of Hamas rocket launches."

"The problem simply put: no Jews are dying. That is the pity of it all. It would be so much better if there were more "proportionality." After all since this latest round of attacks that began in earnest on July 7, there have been more than 800 rockets fired at Israel, 582 landed. There should have been deaths.

These rockets, thankfully, were either destroyed by The Iron Dome or landed away from populated areas although there have been injuries and destruction of property. But not enough death and destruction to satiate the media to warrant pity from them, pity that comes so easily for those who are dying in Gaza because of their government's actions, or is it inaction, not Israel."

If only Jews had died!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:42 AM

Peter Enav, Associated Press
Monday, July 14, 2014

In the sixth day of an offensive that has killed more than 160 people, two Israeli airstrikes struck the southern Gaza city of Khan Younis, killing four Palestinians, according to officials from the city's European Hospital.

The officials said Saddam Moamar, his wife Hanadai, and his father Mousa were killed by an airstrike that hit their house. Their neighbor, Maher Abu Mor, was killed in another airstrike while standing on the rooftop of his home, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to media.

It was not immediately clear why their homes were targeted.

In all, the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza has said that at least 175 people have been killed in Israeli air attacks, including dozens of civilians.

No Israelis have been killed as a result of Hamas rocket launches.

Also Monday, a 21-year-old Palestinian was killed during confrontations with Israeli soldiers in the West Bank village of Samoa, near Hebron, Palestinian health officials said. Residents of the village said soldiers opened fire at a group of Palestinians who were throwing stones at them. The officials and the villagers spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to media.

The Israeli army confirmed the death and said it was looking into the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

The Palestinian representative to the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva said that every rocket and mortar fired from Gaza toward Israel is a "crime against humanity."

Speaking on July 9 to Palestinian Authority TV on the possible risks involved if Palestinians leaders ask to join the International Criminal Court — as they have threatened to do in order to push for measures against Israel — Ambassador Ibrahim Kraishi said the "Palestinian weakness" in terms of international law is the indiscriminate firing of rockets at Israel.

"The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets," said Kraishi during the interview, translated by MEMRI.

The ambassador said that, by contrast, Israel's actions follows legal procedures, because the IDF warns Gazan civilians to leave sites and areas before they are bombed.

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM

Egyptian TV Hosts Slam Hamas Leaders: We Are Sick and Tired of You

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:32 AM

"UN report that 77% of the deaths have been civilians"
Anews report has just announced that somewhere between a quater and a half of these are children - Hamas children, no doubt!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM

Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media.

    The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to-one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed.

    That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three to one. In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia.

    In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

If true, why would Hamas issue this advisory?


could this be true? 

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

OK.. 17,000 refugees and counting. Israel is openly bombing towns in Northern Gaza. Confirmed reports of 172 people killed by Israeli forces since last Tuesday. Israel is putting soldiers on the border ready for a ground invasion.

UN report that 77% of the deaths have been civilians but Israeli military spokesman says UN are wrong.

Quite...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

How does that compare to other conflicts? Wars differ in nature (ground vs. air, for example), pace, and duration. So let's look at air wars and compare the civilian death rates per strike. So far in Gaza, Israel has hit approximately 1,100 sites. Using the high-end casualty count, that's an average of one civilian death for every 14 to 15 sites struck. In the 1999 Kosovo air war, Human Rights Watch found that NATO had killed approximately 500 civilians in attacks on more than 900 targets. That's more than one death for every two targets hit.
…..

Israel claims to be doing something much better. Here's how the IDF's spokesmandescribes it:

We phone up our enemies and tell them that we are going to blow up the building, we throw non-explosive munitions, and that is a sign they are supposed to vacate the building. Only once we have seen them vacate the building—and we are talking about [hitting] command and control places and not the terrorists themselves—then we hit.
In other accounts, Israeli briefers have said that they also send text messages and that the final warning shot, known as a "knock on the roof," can be a mortar strike that hits just hard enough to scare everyone out. "According to the procedure," says Ynet, an Israeli news site, "it is only after the IDF makes sure residents have evacuated the premises that the missile that could destroy the house is launched."

In the history of warfare, this kind of systematic warning—direct, specific, double-layered—is unprecedented. It lets the enemy military officer escape in order to avoid killing his family. But how strictly is the IDF adhering to this policy?

In some cases, there's video evidence of targets being warned or knocked. In other cases, Gazans have confirmed that they received calls or warning flares.

….

There's photographic evidence of people going on to the roof of a targeted building after a warning. And in the worst mass-fatality incident of the campaign's first 48 hours, witnesses say that after residents had been warned and had left the house—thereby making the IDF think it was empty—neighbors and some family members went back in to "form a human shield." By then, the IDF couldn't stop the missile.

It's not clear how often this has happened or what role Hamas has played. Israel cites a TV interview in which a Hamas spokesman praised the courage of human shields. It also points to a statement from Gaza's interior ministry, which urged Gazans not to "pay attention" to Israel's "communications on the phones of citizens." But praise isn't an order, and the ministry statement may have been referring to a mass robo-calling campaign in which Israel told Gazans to leave their homes in preparation for a ground assault.

If Gazans choose to defy the warnings and go on to their roofs, what right does Israel have to strike them? The IDF claimsit will strike anyway, but it has already blinked. In the case that was video-recorded, "the IDF decided not to bomb the home," says the Israeli news site Arutz Sheva. "In most cases ... Israel will simply refrain from taking action if Israeli forces are aware of the presence of civilians in the vicinity."

Do these factors—the fatality rate, the warnings, the shields—make Israel's conduct acceptable? I'll leave that to you. Either way, we need to cut through the propaganda on both sides, analyze the best information on the ground, and put it in context. In some ways, Israel is raising the standards of what can be expected in warfare.


http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-is-raising-the-moral-standards-of-

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:36 AM

""Dont eat the yellow snow"" Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:03 AM

"Two things that can't be looked at for too long, the sun and the truth"
Another Arab proverb

...speaking of proverbs....

"There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads discord among brothers."---Proverbs 6:16-19......(Jewish)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM

"Beware: some liers tell the truth"
 Arab Proverb.  

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:19 PM

Hamas is clearly trying to provoke an Israeli land response so they can have a 'battle' in which they will claim some sort of victory based on any damage they can inflict, human or otherwise. They have committed the Palestinian people to a crusade of victimology whether or not the Israelis commit ground forces.
The Israelis understand this but they may go anyway, their goal will be to do whatever most weakens Hamas.
Hamas is trying the same logic as that of the terrorists of "Battle of Algers" while overlooking that the motivations behind both sides in the Mideast are far more balanced than they were in North Africa.
I think their timing stinks. Not only is it Ramadan, but the incredible amounts of violence going on in Iraq and Syria is diluting the perception of Palestinian misery, and increase the percepton of how much of it is self-inflicted.
I heard a report on the radio that now that the rockets out of Gaza have the range to hit well inside Israel, they have reached into the West Bank, which is an argument IMHO for Israel to absorb more territory not less.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:07 PM

"Exactly....that is why Hamas must be removed."
So the Israelis can move in and move them all to concentration camps - no doubt - the next step to dail;y humiliation and harrasment, as history has shown.
"The Israelis are behaving like a master-race"
No - more evidence of yours -Jews aren't slaughtering Palestinian men women and children indiscriminately - the Israeli regime is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM

"It is now a besieged camp for a Palestinian people under constant threat of harassment, daily humiliation and imminent invasion."

Exactly....that is why Hamas must be removed.


"The Israelis are behaving like a master-race"

More evidence of your antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

What??? Nazi-style Jew-hate among Palestinians and their apologists??? Shocker!

Palestinian Activists Are Using The Hashtag #HitlerWasRight:

BuzzFeed

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

"Israel gave the lands for the Palestinians"
The Israelis gave SFA - Gaza became a ghetto on a piece of shit land Israel didn't want - sort of like the South African townships.
It is now a besieged camp for a Palestinian people under constant threat of harassment, daily humiliation and imminent invasion.
Go look at the then and now maps to see how much land the Palestinian people have lost.
Nobody is trying to portray the people as happy with anything, certainly not ISIS, and Hamas have long been regarded as a necessary evil
] standing between them and either the refugee camps or annihilation.
It is only though international intervention that the Bedouins wren't all landed onto a toxic rubbish dump.
The Israelis are behaving like a master-race; the actual head-count of the dead shows how 'defensive' their thuggish behaviour is - as pointed out adequately by Chomsky.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

'RETAKE the Gaza.."

RETAKE...think about it...Israel gave the lands for the Palestinians, and Hamas used the land, that was given in for a 'peaceful' concession, to build tunnels and fortify it, as a base to launch attacks against the very people who gave it to the Palestinians to live, hopefully in peace. You are assuming (or trying to portray) that the Palestinians are wonderfully 'happy' with Hamas. You are trying to portray Hamas is happy with ISIS, Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, the Sunnis and the Shiites, Kurd, Egypt, Somalia, Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, the Taliban etc etc, like they are all one sort of one big happy family of peaceful, fun-loving, happy Arabs, who welcome their cousins, the Jews, to the region, so they could all live as bosom buddies! ...but of the aforementioned groups, they are all at war with each other, allying themselves TEMPORARILY, with another of the group, to help wipe out somebody else of the group!....which causes me to wonder...WHY do you resent the Jews? WHY do you resent Israel?..when they are the ONLY ones to grant concessions, and lands, only to have the agreements violated and be attacked, in return. Truth be told, if it broke out into all out war, Israel could wipe the rest off the map. If anything they have shown restraint, while at the same time, no tolerance to having their country repeatedly attacked. WHY does that bother you?? Does it infringe on your predisposed bias and hatred?

As far as Chomsky, to whom I usually agree with on a lot of issues, let's rephrase the question..."The Hamas decision to rain death and destruction into Israel(remember, they fired the first rockets), to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Israelis.
Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has rocket launchers hidden within the civilian populace, which has no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, (except missile launchers), no artillery units,(except missile launchers) no mechanized armor, (except missile launchers)(except missile launchers)(except missile launchers)no command in control, except missile launchers, no army… (except terror units with missile launchers)and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder."
Now IF Hamas is FORCING civilians to act as human shields, perhaps the civilians should rise up against Hamas...IF they decide to be human shields, on their own, then they are combatants, who are foolishly unarmed while in the line of fire!..I mean, why bring just sandals and a Burkha to a war zone?!? to be a shield...with your children???..and expect Hamas to protect you??
I got a 'novel idea'..how about not launching missile strikes, kidnapping, or other acts of violence and then hiding behind innocent civilians, so you can claim that the Israelis started it with no provocation...or just for the 'fun of it'????

Lots of questions to answer...let's try it...or at least THINK beyond the biases!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

"Israel has nuclear weapons"

And how many nuclear weapons has Israel fired into Gaza?
Another pathetic attempt to create a false equivalence.

"Israel is, and continues to be the overwhelming aggressor working on the basis that might is right."

More propaganda bullshit straight out of the comrade playbook.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM

"Israel needs to retake Gaza to rid it of the one entity that is responsible for every single one of those deaths"
By the discrepancy in the number of deaths the Palestinians need to retake Israel.
Israel is, and continues to be the overwhelming aggressor working on the basis that might is right.
"it's cache of 10,000 missiles"
Israel has nuclear weapons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:47 AM

""The nature of human evil does not rest in the mythic explanations of our wrong doing. It cannot be assessed in the measure of the destructiveness of our evil behaviors. The identity or nature of human evil is found in the origin of hurtful behaviors. That origin is misguided instinct (ignorance) and fear. Even when we lack courage or knowledge, we are still being guided by our simple instinct to benefit ourselves. No matter how brutal and terrifying our capacity to destroy one another, we are all just little children trying to find some goodness in our little lives. In all of our moral choosing there is the constant expression of this natural instinct to benefit ourselves and a corresponding instinctual simplicity of innocence that dwells in all humanity. In this Socratic perspective, human fear and ignorance make up the nature of human evil. What is the face of this humain evil? Is it the face of a monster? Is it the face of the Devil? No, the face of human evil is the face of every lost and frightened child. It is the face of innocence under stress.""

FROM: A Socreatic Perspective on the Nature of Human Evil, Max Maxwell

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

Cue the psychobabble.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM

And the blood of every single one of those is on the hands of Hamas.

Perfect example of transferrance, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

".... a widening offensive that has killed more than 160 Palestinians."

And the blood of every single one of those is on the hands of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:02 AM

Israel needs to retake Gaza

Establishing yet another occupied territory, Boo? Thought you maintain that such do not exist, and never have existed.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israel briefly deployed ground troops inside the Gaza Strip for the first time early Sunday as its military warned northern Gaza residents to evacuate their homes, part of a widening offensive that has killed more than 160 Palestinians.

160 dead and counting, Boo - good job avoiding cililians, eh? Wonder how many wounded they've racked up?

By the way - where, exactly, are the northern Gaza residents supposed to go, do you suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

Jeffrey Goldberg nails it IMO:

Mahmoud Abbas, the sometimes moderate, often ineffectual leader of the Palestinian Authority, just asked his rivals in Hamas a question that other bewildered people are also asking: "What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?"

The Gaza-based Hamas has recently fired more than 500 rockets at Israeli towns and cities. This has terrorized the citizenry, though caused few casualties, in large part because Israel is protected by the Iron Dome anti-rocket system.

In reaction to these indiscriminately fired missiles, Israel has bombarded targets across Gaza, killing roughly 100 people so far. Compared with violent death rates in other parts of the Middle East, the number is small. (More than 170,000 people have been killed in the Syrian civil war to date.) But it is large enough to suggest an answer to Abbas's question: Hamas is trying to get Israel to kill as many Palestinians as possible.

Dead Palestinians represent a crucial propaganda victory for the nihilists of Hamas. It is perverse, but true. It is also the best possible explanation for Hamas's behavior, because Hamas has no other plausible strategic goal here.

Is Hamas Trying to Get Gazans Killed?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:36 AM

Israel needs to retake Gaza to rid it of the one entity that is responsible for every single one of those deaths. To try and justify Hamas' aggression by blaming it on the blockade is specious at best and demonstrably false as evidenced by it's cache of 10,000 missiles including Syrian-made M-302 Khaibars and Iranian Iranian Fajr-5 missiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:00 AM

""Israel can no longer enable its citizens to "live normal lives" without retaking Gaza"
Gazan have been unable to live "normal lives" for many decades due to Israel's continuing aggression - how about, "lift the blockade, stop building settlements and knowk the 'Berlin' walls down and the rockets will stop".
Between 2001 and 2012 there were 64 Israeli deaths due to Palestinian rockets - the death toll among Palestinians has now exceeded 150 in the last few days.
Seems like a fair swap to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 08:01 AM

"Israel can no longer enable its citizens to "live normal lives" without retaking Gaza. "Restraint" and "proportionality" have so degraded its deterrence that it can no longer dissuade enemies from attacking almost at will."

Into the Fray: The ruinous results of restraint

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:34 AM

It seems that neither side has clean hands as far as the use of human shields

HUMAN SHIELDS

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

"No, O insightful one, they are getting pounded in self defense for sending missiles into Israel's populated areas, indiscriminately"
A rocket launcher in every home hospita and school that is being bombartded at present - I assume - a medical home for the elderly disabled yesterday, wasn't it?
I' with Chomsky completely on this - well worth repeating - to be ignored by you and yours, no doubt.
"The incursion and bombardment of Gaza is not about destroying Hamas. It is not about stopping rocket fire into Israel, it is not about achieving peace.
The Israeli decision to rain death and destruction on Gaza, to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Palestinians.
Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army… and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder.
When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land. That's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense.
— Noam Chomsky"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:44 AM

Oh, and I left something out...You have no qualms with a group who uses citizens for human shields, while firing missiles into civilian populated areas, of another country, while counting on the Israelis to hesitate because of the human shields, and figuring the international community will condemn Israel for it!..How about condemning Hamas for using human shields???!!!???...or is that beyond your capacity?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:38 AM

Jim Carroll: "Which is, of course, why the Palestinian people fully deserve the punishment they are receiving at the hands of the Israeli regime."

No, O insightful one, they are getting pounded in self defense for sending missiles into Israel's populated areas, indiscriminately, and are a front for Iran. Israel has no beef with Palestine...it's Hamas...and there IS a difference! ..and as far as your comparison with Nazi Germany, Israel is not shipping Palestinians or Hamas to ovens....ironic though, Iran wants to nuke Israel off the map. Don't you think that if YOUR lineage had gone through that, you would confusing ideological notions with survival of your country and people????...unless, of course, you had a secret desire, to one of the ones pulling levers for loading in Zyklon B!!!
Maybe you should re-think your biases...you wreak with them!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:19 AM

"the other being a recognised illegally operating terrorist body threatening the safety and security of those citizens"
Which is, of course, why the Palestinian people fully deserve the punishment they are receiving at the hands of the Israeli regime.
One may e elected representatives - both are terrorist groups - the fact that Israel has a mandate to act as it does doesn't male it any less so.
The inequality lies in the strength to resist, not in their legitimacy.
The fact that the Israeli regime is acting with the blessing of the Israeli implicates the etire populti in the slaughter that is now taking place.
I believe that the German Government was an elected one when it was handing out the Yellow Stars, and those opposing it in Warsaw had no such mandate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:40 AM

Hear Hear!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 12:40 AM

And there has been an obvious failure, on the part of those denouncing Israel in these latest posts, to have taken any cognisance of the vital point made above by the Canadian minister: that Israel and Hamas are not equivalent entities: one being a sovereign state within the international community, with the responsibilities of all and any such for the safety of its citizens; the other being a recognised illegally operating terrorist body threatening the safety and security of those citizens. This way of going on as if they were opponents facing one another on equal political or moral terms is a manifest absurdity.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:54 PM

Sooner or later(except for those who lack common sense), it may dawn on the Israel haters, that this war isn't exactly with Hamas. It's with Iran, and Hamas is just their proxies. Who do you think is supplying Hamas....and sooner or later, Israel is going to go after Iran, probably when they try to take out their nukes. So to those who are mistakenly pretending that this is a just an Israeli skirmish with the local Palestinians, over Israel being aggressive instigators, for whatever reason that some childish ideologue is daydreaming about, over 2 six packs and a bowl or two, while stroking himself over Obama and Pelosi, you are NOT looking or even regarding the whole of the situation.
Obama IS helping though...he's opening up our borders!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:14 PM

Hey Boo- take it up directly with that anti-Semite Sarit Michaeli why dontcha?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:49 PM

I'm sure you don't even appreciate the ludicrousness of the demand for Israel to cease fire. It would be akin to demanding the allies moving against the Nazi aggression in WWII to cease fire. Hamas are the aggressors here and Israel are acting to halt their aggression. They have expressed their willingness to consider the terms of a truce proposed by Egypt and Qatar which was categorically rejected by Hamas. The UN "demands" for a ceasefire are nothing more than theater to make it look like it still has relevancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:22 PM

Atta boy, Boo - play the old Nazi card. Whatsa matter? - you get tired of playing the anti-Semite card?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM

Right, Israel should agree to a unilateral ceasefire - where have we heard that before...."This way to the gas chambers ladies and gentlemen".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM

Israel Ignores UN's Gaza Truce Request, Extends Bombings
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Jul 12, 2014, 5:37 PM ET
By KHALED KHAZZIHA and MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH Associated Press

Ignoring international appeals for a cease-fire, Israel on Saturday widened its range of Gaza bombing targets to civilian institutions with suspected Hamas ties and announced it would hit northern Gaza "with great force" to prevent rocket attacks from there on Israel. More than 150 Palestinians have been killed in five days of bombardment.

One of the Israeli strikes hit a center for the disabled where Palestinians said two patients were killed and four people seriously hurt. In a second attack, on Saturday evening, an Israeli warplane flattened the home of Gaza's police chief and damaged a nearby mosque as evening prayers ended, killing at least 18 people, officials said.

Israel's heavy bombardment of one of the most densely populated territories in the world is itself the main factor putting civilians at risk. Sarit Michaeli of the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that while using human shields violates international humanitarian law, "this does not give Israel the excuse to violate international humanitarian law as well."

See Also 12 Jul 14 - 09:05 AM

Hey, Boo - I guess Sarit Michaeli is an anti-Semite, right? Or is he a "self-hating Jew"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:37 PM

This from Ira Weiss a champion of peace in the Middle East:

Gershon Baskin has dealt directly with Hamas loyalists and officials more than any other Israeli alive. For years, as director of IPCRI, he had friendly personal relations with dozens of members of Hamas. He was the person who negotiated the release of Shalit who had been kidnapped and was being held by Hamas. He is probably the only Israeli whose opinions about Hamas motives I take seriously. These are his latest comments about the current situation.

"From my information, Hamas has refused all ceasefire plans. They want the Israeli ground operation. They want to blow up some tanks - they have anti-tanks rockets, They want to kill some soldiers and they want to abduct a soldier.

"The people of Gaza want this to end. Someone in Gaza who refused to curse Abu Mazen was shot in the legs by Hamas.

"People in Gaza are afraid to go out to the streets to tell Hamas to stop.

"Meanwhile Hamas rockets continue to fall all over Israel and Israeli planes are continuing to drop bombs in Gaza. Israelis have defenses, Gazans do not."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:32 PM

Bobad, You are trying to tell 'so-called liberal' hypocrites about 'moral equivalence'...but first you should describe to them what is 'moral'.....or morality. It's like trying to get a get a earthworm to sing!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM

There is absolutely no moral equivalence between Hamas' actions and Israel's response to them. Trying to create one smacks of an attempt to justify the indiscriminate targeting of civilians by rocket and mortar fire which is morally reprehensible IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM

Wake up!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM

Go back to sleep. Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:18 PM

What would 'we' expect our governments to do if rockets were raining down on Los Angeles or New York, Dallas, London, Calgary,..have a 'ideological discussion'?????

Naw, I'd hope they'd kick ass on whomever was launching and sending them in....and blow the shit out of them!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:00 PM

Someone earlier used the term genocide for what is taking place in Gaza. Besides being a blatant attempt at demonization it is also laughable: in 1970 the population of Gaza was 340,000, in 1980 460,000, in 1990 460,000, in 2000 1.3 million, in 2014 1.8 million.....some genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM

Of course Israel should be blamed for trying to stop the hundreds of rockets being launched against her civilians. She should just meekly accept it and assume her historical identity as a victim of Jew hatred. "This way to the gas chambers, ladies and gentlemen".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 05:37 PM

Is there not blame to go around on both sides?

Not according to BooBad & his fellow travellers, Ed. Take care, or they'll be calling you an anti-Semite next.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:13 PM

Criticism of Israel's Response to Rocket Attacks from Gaza

July 12, 2014 - Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird today issued the following statement:

"Canada rejects UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay's uncalled-for criticism of Israel's response to rocket attacks from Gaza. Focusing her comments on Israel is neither helpful nor reflective of the reality of this crisis.

"There must be no moral equivalence between Hamas, a listed terrorist organization, and its blatant disregard for human life, and the liberal democratic State of Israel's duty and obligation to defend its people from cowardly and indiscriminate attacks.

"Canada mourns the death and suffering of innocent civilians in Gaza. Responsibility rests solely with Hamas and its allies, who launched and continue to feed this crisis.

"The Israel Defense Forces have taken extraordinary steps to reduce civilian casualties in very difficult and trying conditions. Israel should be commended—not criticized—for these efforts in the face of an enemy clearly determined to put civilians, from both sides, in mortal danger to suit its own purposes.

"Canada calls on Hamas and other militant groups to end the rocket attacks on Israel and bring an end to the ongoing violence that threatens the lives of innocent Israelis and Palestinians. The path chosen by Hamas and its allies does not lead to peace."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:09 PM

Gaza terrorists used a mosque located near Palestinian homes as a place to hide rockets and gather militants. Our aircraft struck this mosque last night in order to disable Hamas from firing at Israel. Terrorist organizations systematically use mosques to conceal weapons and create underground tunnels within populated areas.

Declassified photo

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:06 PM

Declassified aerial photo: #Hamas military training compound & terror tunnels in a school's backyard in Gaza City.

twitter.com

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM

Is there not blame to go around on bith sides? in thatvregard, are tgere similaritiesvwith tge Georgia-=Russia conflict? Just wondering.

-Georgia started the conflict with Russia with an attack that was in violation of international law.

- Russia was responsible for a long history of provocation in the region and reacted disproportionately.

-Much of the Russian military action went far beyond the reasonable limits of defence,"

- Georgia's attack on the night of 7 August was an offensive, not a defensive, response to an invasion. It comes to the unequivocal conclusion that the assault breached international law.




Russia vs Georgia 

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM

"sing people to protect their weapons."
Sound a little but like a 'gun shanty'.
Israel's practice of deliberately using people as human shields has been raised as an issue on numerous occasions, which is a little different from firing weapons from your home territory - on one occasion, they used a schoolyard to mount an attack on a Palestinian area.
Israel's making legitimate any part of 'enemy territory' is standard practice.

AL-KHALIL (HEBRON): Israeli soldiers invade Palestinian elementary school

March, this year, from 'Christian Peacemaker' eyewitnesses:

"On 4 March, approximately thirty Israeli soldiers entered the Qitoun neighborhood from Checkpoints 29 & 209, provoking stone throwing from schoolboys. At one point, half the forces entered a Palestinian schoolyard and began using stun grenades and tear gas on local children and passersby.   Palestinian teachers prevented the soldiers from actually entering the school building. Soldiers shot canisters in front of the school building and detained three boys under the age of twelve. They later released the boys because they had no pictures of them throwing stones on their cameras.
CPTers have witnessed increasingly aggressive soldier behavior towards schoolchildren during morning school patrols at military checkpoints in the Old City of Hebron. Qitoun neighborhood is home to five schools, including two military checkpoints. On 6 March, CPTers had to carry kindergarteners out of range of the teargas that had incapacitated them.
These military interventions violate the Right to Education (Article 28) from the Convention on the Rights of the Child. CPT records the number of students, teachers, and detentions near these checkpoints as children attempt to make their way to school safely. CPT also documents physical threats, book bag searches, and tear gas use on children."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:39 PM

Israel is using weapons to protect her people.

Hamas is sing people to protect their weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:48 AM

the scrupulous methods [the Israeli Gov't] employ[s] to avoid civilian deaths

Jeez, Boo, with 120+ dead and 920+ wounded, doesn't sound like their scruples amount to much, eh?.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

"the scrupulous methods they employ to avoid civilian deaths whereas"
Which as led to over 100 civilian deaths, including a large number of children.
The Israeli campaign across the West Bank in the wake of the kidnapping left at least eight Palestinians dead, about 130 wounded and around 560 detained.
This was before the bombardment got underway.
Now the death - toll has reached over 100, mainly civilians, and including children.
Jim Carroll   

An America (no doubt Anti-Semitic) Jew's view of the situation
US Backing Israeli War of Choice In Gaza
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by Mitchell Plitnick
The moral high ground is always a tenuous piece of property. It is difficult to obtain and is easily lost. It is seen, however, as crucial because most people, all over the world, cannot accommodate the notion that life is composed of shades of grey; they desperately need to see black and white, good guys and bad guys, heroes and villains, in every situation. Nowhere is this truer than in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
It has become even more important for Israel to fight this rhetorical battle because, while it can always count on mindless support from Washington and from the most radically nationalistic and zealous Zionists around the world, the current escalation and ugliness are going to be very difficult to defend to even mainstream pro-Israel liberals, let alone the rest of the world. The hasbara (propaganda) has been flowing at a rapid pace, even more than usual, as Israel struggles to maintain the treasured hold on the "moral high ground" that its own actions have increasingly undermined.

The Setup
Here is the very simple reality of what is happening now between Israel and Gaza: Israel willfully and intentionally seized upon a crime to demolish the unity government between Hamas and Gaza and, at the same time, significantly downgrade Hamas' administrative, political, and military capabilities.
Israel, of course, could not have foreseen the kidnapping and murder of three youths on the West Bank, but once it happened, the Netanyahu government went into high gear to press its advantage. Recognizing that it needed to whip the Israeli public into a frenzy, the government put a gag order on the case to avoid revealing that it knew almost right away that the young men were dead. Under the cover of what seemed to be a kidnapping, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was able to attack Hamas in both the West Bank and Gaza, launching a massive military operation throughout the former and increasing its bombing raids in the latter.
Hamas, for its part, didn't react wisely, but the politics of its situation left its leadership little choice. They had advocated kidnappings too often in the past, and they delayed stating they were not behind this incident. They finally did, and when Israel named the two suspects, it gave weight to Hamas' denial, as the alleged murderers were part of a powerful Hebron clan that, as J.J. Goldberg put it, "…had a history of acting without the [Hamas] leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests."
But while it is rather clear at this point that the Hamas leadership had nothing to do with the three boys' murders, it did support the act, which played well into Netanyahu's hands. All over Israel and all over social media, calls for revenge popped up, along with cries of "Death to the Arabs," and horrifying, indeed genocidal, statements by Israeli politicians. Ayelet Shaked of the Jewish Home Party compared Palestinian children to snakes, called for a war on the entire Palestinian people, and said "They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads." It's difficult for even the most brazen apologist to see those words as anything other than an incitement to attack civilians without restraint.
Such words bore their fruit when a Palestinian youth of 16 years, Muhammed Abu Khdeir, was burned alive. And here, of course, is where the Israeli rhetoric ratcheted up another notch. Setting out to capture the criminals was an imperative for the Netanyahu government because it made the case that "we prosecute such murderers, while our enemy celebrates them," a refrain that was uttered continuously in various forms.
"That's the difference between us and our neighbors," Netanyahu said. "They consider murderers to be heroes. They name public squares after them. We don't. We condemn them and we put them on trial and we'll put them in prison."
Not only is that rhetoric dehumanizing, it is also false. For example, the town of Kochav Yair in central Israel is named after the leader of the notorious LEHI, or "Stern Gang," Avraham Stern, a terrorist who was summarily executed by the British. LEHI, along with the Irgun Z'Vai Leumi (or Irgun for short) was responsible for the massacre of the Palestinian Deir Yassin village in 1948, though this was after Stern's death. The same group also boasted among its members about future Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, who was behind, among other things, the 1944 assassination of Lord Moyne, British Minister for Middle East Affairs, while the Irgun was led by Menachem Begin, the first Israeli prime minister from an opposition party. Many streets are named after them.
If that's not enough, in the settlement of Kiryat Arba one can find the Meir Kahane Memorial Park, dedicated to the late "rabbi" who called for violence against Arabs in Israel (and whose Jewish Defense League often organized violence against African-Americans in the US). And, of course, right across from that park is the tomb of Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinians in 1994. That grave has been turned into a pilgrimage site for radical Jews.
So, Israelis are quite capable of celebrating murderers as well. But it's important for Netanyahu to conceal this fact for now. During the staged operation to find the "kidnapped" youths, Israel arrested hundreds of Palestinians, many, but not all associated with Hamas. They virtually closed down Hebron and the surrounding area, and entered many Palestinian cities throughout the West Bank, provoking frequent clashes with residents. Several Palestinians were killed and many were injured.
Hamas eventually took responsibility for some rockets that had been fired at Israel, and the situation continued to deteriorate. Eventually, Israel launched the current operation, which was dubbed "Solid Cliff" in Hebrew; their marketing people felt that "Protective Edge" sounded better in English.
Since then, over 100 Palestinians have been killed, many of them civilians and minors. Houses have been targeted and destroyed, hundreds of people injured. United Nations human rights officials have warned that Israel may be committing war crimes by targeting private homes while the United States performs its usual task of preventing the Security Council from issuing critical statements about Israeli actions.
While the US works that task, both its president and its ambassador to Israel are reassuring Israel with total support. In a stunning example of double talk, President Barack Obama offered to broker a cease-fire, but Netanyahu bluntly stated he doesn't want one. So, naturally US Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro responded by saying the US would back a ground invasion of Gaza.

War of Choice
Israeli military leaders, whose role in deciding defense strategy has become increasingly, if quietly, marginalized under Netanyahu, are not enthusiastic about the current Israeli onslaught. They understand that Hamas is not going to be defeated militarily and that this action is further degrading Israel's standing in the world. They also understand that the impetus for this action was not security, but politics.
Netanyahu is meanwhile not striking a blow for security, or even revenge. The purpose of all this, from the deception of the Israeli people and the world about the fate of the three murdered youths, the mass arrests and provocative behavior during the staged "search" for the boys, and the following attacks on Gaza were directed not at Palestinian terrorists, but at Palestinian political leaders. While it's true that Netanyahu envisions no exit strategy (he never does) for this operation, he does have objectives; three of them, in fact.
The first is obvious: to deliver a blow to Hamas. He is well aware that the group is already struggling financially, even more than usual, and these attacks are diverting resources toward fighting Israel and creating greater needs among Gazans.
The second is to humiliate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Netanyahu is absolutely furious that Abbas acted without Israel's permission by joining international treaties and forming a unity government — two things which, actually, are not only Palestine's right, but Abbas' duty. Netanyahu is showing Palestinians how ineffective Abbas is: the PA president can do nothing but sit on the sidelines. This is a stupid thing for Netanyahu to do, of course, because it undermines the man who has been keeping the West Bank quiet for Israel, but when has that ever stopped him?
Finally, and most importantly, the goal that probably spurred all of this was Netanyahu's desperation to dismember the Palestinian unity government. Bibi knows that while a unity government might not make progress in securing Palestinian rights, the split between Gaza and the West Bank makes it utterly impossible for there to be any progress toward ending Israel's 47-year old occupation. From the day the unity agreement was signed, Netanyahu has been enraged about it and obsessed with undoing it. He hopes that the current violence will either increase international pressure on Abbas to dissolve his partnership with Hamas or that Hamas will grow so angry at Abbas that it will walk away.
Given that the West Bank has remained largely quiet, thanks entirely to Abbas' security forces clamping down on any protests, let alone any action against Israel, it is entirely possible that Hamas will indeed bolt from the unity arrangement. This is rather remarkable because Netanyahu continues to demonize Abbas publicly and no one wants to compliment him on maintaining order because he is doing so at the expense of enraging his own people. Most Palestinians in the West Bank see their relatives being slaughtered in Gaza while their own president not only sits by helplessly but prevents his people from even protesting.
That is Netanyahu's agenda, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with keeping Israelis safe and secure. Indeed, as has always been the case, far more Israelis are threatened and injured when Israel attacks than at other times.
To even maintain this thin façade, Israel must continue to make the false case that it has the moral high ground. While Hamas could be easily assailed because they only target Israeli civilians, Netanyahu has still found a way to be even more criminal, Machiavellian and ruthless, and ultimately the most culpable villain here by far.
Make no mistake about what the United States is backing here. This is as pure a war of choice as any. Netanyahu has set up this fight, and has waged it. And, as always, it is the people of Gaza who pay the heaviest price. But Israelis too will bear the cost of this ruthless escapade in the long run. And the United States can only look at itself in shame as it supports this murderous and reckless endeavor.

About the Author
Mitchell Plitnick is the former Director of the US Office of B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories and was previously the Director of Education and Policy for Jewish Voice for Peace. He is a widely published and respected policy analyst. Born in New York City, raised an Orthodox Jew and educated in Yeshiva, Mitchell grew up in an extremist environment that passionately supported the radical Israeli settler movement. Plitnick regularly speaks all over the country on current issues. His writing has appeared in the Jordan Times, Israel Insider, UN Observer, Middle East Report, Global Dialogue, San Francisco Chronicle, Die Blaetter Fuer Deutsche Und Internationale Politik, Outlook, and in a regular column for a time in Tikkun Magazine. He has been interviewed by various outlets including PBS News Hour, the O'Reilly Factor and CNBC Asia. Plitnick graduated with honors from UC Berkeley in Middle Eastern Studies and wrote his thesis on Israeli and Jewish historiography.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:54 AM

"Or, alternatively does Hamas have more compassion for Israelis than the Israelis have for them?"

The Israelis have more compassion for the civilians of Gaza that does Hamas as demonstrated by the scrupulous methods they employ to avoid civilian deaths whereas Hamas urges it's citizens to act as human shields so that they can exploit their deaths for propaganda purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestinen
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

Curious (as to motives):

Is the reason there are no recent Israeli deaths from Hamas rocket fire that Hamas is not trying to kill Israelis, that they are merely trying to provoke the Israelis to fire surperiour rocketfire back (considering the congestion, most likely hitting some civilians with some rockets)?

If Hamas had better, and more precise, rockets would they not use them as the Israelis are now?

Or, alternatively does Hamas have more compassion for Israelis than the Israelis have for them?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:05 AM

spare civilian populations as it strikes terror-related targets in the Gaza Strip

Window dressing.

Fact is that THERE IS NO WAY to "spare civilian populations" with the course Israel is pursuing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

Aerial footage released by the IDF overnight Friday showcased the difficulties the Israeli military encounters in trying to spare civilian populations as it strikes terror-related targets in the Gaza Strip, as well as the efforts it makes to avoid harming non-combatants.

WATCH: IDF footage reveals efforts to spare civilians in Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM

"Hamas at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire"

Of all the horrid, hideous notes of woe,
Sadder than owl-songs or the midnight blast;
    Is that portentous phrase,

          "I told you so."

    Byron - Don Juan (canto XIV, st. 50)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:47 AM

" many Jews consider him to be an antisemite"
Einstein was warning of the possibility of this happening at the birth of the Israeli State, maybe he should have stuck to mathematical physics.
Einstein warns of Zionist Fascism in Israel
When you people start denying the fact that many Jews are opposed to what is happening in Israel today, yur case for "Antisemitism" disappears.
"Hamas at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire"
To the U~Israelis, "ceasefire" means "surrender on or terms - put another way, "come out with your hands up Tommy, for you, the war is over.
Israels bullying militarism has degraded the Jewish people, especially when it is described as "Jewish".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) Saturday, July 12, 2014— Israeli airstrikes in Gaza hit a mosque and a center for the disabled where two women were killed Saturday, raising the Palestinian death toll from the offensive to more than 120.

While there have been no fatalities in Israel from the continued rocket fire, Gaza Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Kidra said overnight Israeli strikes raised the death toll there to over 120, with more than 920 wounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM

Egypt and another Arab country, most likely Qatar, have put together an initial draft of a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, and presented it to both parties Saturday.

Hamas has so far refused to discuss the terms of the cease-fire, while Israel has expressed to the authors its willingness to meet to discuss the details of the deal.

The cease-fire draft is divided into two sections: security and socioeconomic.

The security aspect includes among other items the demands by Hamas for the release of 56 prisoners who were freed as part of the 2011 Shalit swap deal, but rearrested by Israel during the IDF operation followed the abduction and murder of three Israeli teens in the West Bank last month. They are also demanding the release of the senior Hamas members in the West Bank who were also detained during the same operation, known as Brother's Keeper.

The socioeconomic aspect includes principles reached after the end of Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, including the expansion of the fishing area off the coast of Gaza, which was recently reduced by the IDF, a reduction in the size of Israel's security perimeter on its border with Gaza, the admittance of building materials into Gaza and the easing of the blockade on the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt.

Hamas at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire. The organization is still looking for the tangible victory that has so far eluded it, such as heavy damage during a rocket strike on central Israel. It appears that Hamas is even ready for an IDF ground incursion, which would cost it dear, so long as it can present an image of victory to the Palestinian public by the end of the fighting. At the close of Pillar of Defense, this came in the form of a rocket strike on an apartment building in Rishon Lezion.

Israel, for its part, has told those behind the draft that there is a basis for discussion, in particular the socioeconomic sections.

Elior Levy
Published: 07.12.14, 12:19 / Israel News

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

Chomsky should stick to linguistics where he has some credibility.

And yes, many Jews consider him to be an antisemite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:26 AM

A past statement from that well-known Anti Semite, Noam Chomsky ums up Israel's position perfectly
Jim Carroll

"The incursion and bombardment of Gaza is not about destroying Hamas. It is not about stopping rocket fire into Israel, it is not about achieving peace.
The Israeli decision to rain death and destruction on Gaza, to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Palestinians.
Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army… and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder.
When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land. That's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense.
— Noam Chomsky"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:20 AM

"The vast, vast majority of Israelis support the policies of the current Israeli government"
The vast majority of the German people supported the Nazi - so what?
"Name ONE Palestinian killed who was not"
Don't be so ****** stupid
You name one single person who was killed who was armed and firing rockets
This is an indiscriminate bombardment of civilian areas
Have't looked this morning, but the death toll had topped 100, the overwhelming majority of those were announced as being civilians and a large percentage of those were children.
Are you really fanatically supportive of Israel to suggest that they have now developed weaponry that only takes out fighters.
A far as the Israelis are concerned 'legitimate' means 'Palestinian' - tis, as with past military incursions, is indiscriminate state murder a combination of suppressing resistance and revenge for the killing of the the Israeli boys.
The indiscriminate killing had started long before the rocket attacks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:12 PM

The vast, vast majority of Israelis support the policies of the current Israeli government

Got any figures or evidence to back up your claim? Percentages, perhaps?

And you still didn't address that by your definitions all of the thousands upon thousands of Jewish Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government are Anti-Semites in need of "absolution" as well.

Not to mention the thousands of Jews WORLDWIDE who oppose the the policies of the current Israeli government, who by your definitions are Anti-Semites in need of "absolution" as well.

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:59 PM

The vast, vast majority of Israelis support the policies of the current Israeli government. But let's just ignore that inconvenient little detail because your contention only goes to validate the democracy that is Israel, in contrast to it's neighbours, where opposing the policies of their governments is awarded with imprisonment (if the dissenters are lucky).

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:25 PM

As if this gives you some sort of absolution.

Ah, but Boo- I'm not the who NEEDS absolution.

By your definitions all of the thousands upon thousands of Jewish Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government are Anti-Semites in need of "absolution" as well.

Rubbish.

Just the same tired old BooBad Anti-Semitic Two Step. Boring AND idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 07:38 PM

"I'm not sure what my Jewish grandmother (G_d rest her soul) would make of your bullshit accusation of "Jew hater"."

As if this gives you some sort of absolution.......fail!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 07:08 PM

But I think you get my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:54 PM

"Ah, the same tired old BooBad Anti-Semitic Two Step. Boring AND idiotic."

As the old bard said:
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

And
"If the shoe fits wear it"

And
If it walks like a duck......etc."

I can give you more if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:49 PM

Unfortunately for the BDSers Israel's economy is thriving

Give it time, Boo - the major U.S. Christian denominations recently pulled out ( see BDS thread, above) and more people & organizations are doing so by the day if not the hour. Just give it time. I'm sure the latest round of Israeli atrocities will provide some additional impetus.

you and the other Mudcat Jew haters

Ah, the same tired old BooBad Anti-Semitic Two Step. Boring AND idiotic.

I'm not sure what my Jewish grandmother (G_d rest her soul) would make of your bullshit accusation of "Jew hater".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:36 PM

Academic boycott targets students and professors. Divestment targets the economy which affects the entire population. I don't think anyone except you and the other Mudcat Jew haters would deny that BDS constitutes collective punishment. Unfortunately for the BDSers Israel's economy is thriving, it has, in fact, exceeded the OECD average in most economic indices since it's inception in 2005. Some of Israel's burgeoning trade is with Muslim countries. Some BDS.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:25 PM

Oh, you mean like BDS right?

"Collective Punishment", Boo?

That your new definition of economic sanctions intended to influence Israeli government policy?? Kinda like was done with Souith Africa and other apartheid regimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

Well, since you didn't answer it last time, Beardie, let me pose the question again:

Per BB: YOU are saying that it is OK to kill civilians as long as they are Jews

Where exactly did I say that? Just more of the usual Bearded Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:54 PM

Of course the IDF should target Hamas' military facilities but, oh dear, they are terrorists and terrorists don't employ military facilities instead they site their rocket launchers and mortars among the civilian population in order to incur civilian casualties so that the righteous Jew haters of the world can then heap their opprobrium on those malevolent Jews who indiscriminately target innocent women and children. That this cruel and cynical tactic is bought into by those who are only too eager to spew their hatred of Jews is amply in evidence here at the Mudcat Cafe.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:33 PM

""Collective punishment" is cruel, inhuman and against any treaty or protocol in Geneva or elsewhere."

Oh, you mean like BDS right?
Or does that not count because it's directed against Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:17 PM

Rocks have no power against the weaponry and bombs employed by Israel which are killing and maiming innocent women and children.

No one wants women, children and innocent men killed either Israeli or Palestinian.
It's this kind of warmongering that makes this discussion a travesty.

There have been few reports of Israeli innocent women, children or men being wounded or killed even by Hamas rocket fire which is of course futile. The casualty list of Palestinians far exceeds that of those of Israelis and that is certified by Amnesty International as well as other international observers.

The idea of punitive "collective punishment" if applied to Zionists would cause an international furor. Palestine never dropped bombs on Israel in spite of the Meir Kahanes and the Jewish Defense League fanatics. This is a purely religious war pitting Zionists against Islamists.
Treaties have been violated on both sides but the burden of proof for denying the oppression the Palestinian people lies heavily on the Israeli side.i

I deplore the bloodshed instigated by either side but the Palestinian people remain landlocked, oppressed and have no shelter available to them from the bombardment of Gaza.

Still, the finger pointing goes on and the Settlements multiply displacing Palestinian land and homes.

Gaza remains an open air prison. The Hamas militants are fighting a losing battle. The Israeli militants are undoubtably stronger in weaponry and in the unrelenting support of the US which supplies these weapons to Israel.

The idea of parity between the two countries is ludicrous.

Right now the only hope for Israel or Palestine to break the shackles of militocracy are organizations like BDS which will force the two sides to a peace table regardless of the recalcitrance of Israel or the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:32 PM

But in an effort to prevent civilian casualties, the Israeli military makes warning phone calls to militants' homes, telling them to get out immediately because the building is going to be bombed. Warning leaflets are also dropped from the air before specific areas are attacked.





YOU are saying that it is OK to kill civilians as long as they are Jews

Where exactly did I say that? Just more of the usual Bearded Bullshit.



No, Greggie, it is the truth. The blood is on YOUR hands. YOU are helping Hamas kill Palestinians by your support of their illegal rocket bombardments.

You state that Israelis are not allowed to defend themselves, and that Hamas is "defending" themselves by their (prohibited by the Geneva Conventions) mass bombardment of civilian areas of Israel.


You complain about an Israeli targeted attack on an Hamas military site, yet cheer on the Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians. YOU are the one who has decided that Jews are not human beings.

Israel has demonstrated that it cares MORE for Palestinian lives than Hamas, OR YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM

YOU are saying that it is OK to kill civilians as long as they are Jews

Where exactly did I say that? Just more of the usual Bearded Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM

It takes someone with a sick and twisted mind and an obsessive hatred of humanity to call self-defense by Jews terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:20 PM

Wrong, as usual GregF.

The war crimes are being done by Hamas.

The deaths of the Palestinians that THEY use as human shields are on their hands.


You have far more Palestinian blood on your hands than I do.


YOU are saying that it is OK to kill civilians as long as they are Jews, but to shot back at someone who is trying to kill you is wrong IF you are a Jew.



You are almost as stupid as Jim, but obviously a lot more of an Anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:06 PM

... to these deadly rock attacks

Damn right, BB - in a contest between automatic weapons and rocks, the rocks will win every time.

Of course those rock throwers are just Palestinians, so we can't expect YOU to think they are human beings.

The BLOOD of those civilians, both Israeli AND PALESTINIAN, is on YOUR hands due to your support of the Israeli Government.

YOU are saying that Palestinians cannot defend themselves LEGALLY while you keep silent on the WAR CRIMES being committed by your friends in Israel.

It takes someone with a sick and twisted mind and an obsessive hatred of Palestinians to call self-defense terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM

Despite Palestinian rock throwers being seen by the international community as 'unarmed civilians,' rocks are deadly weapons meant for one purpose: To injure, maim and kill. Over the years there have been countless incidents of Palestinian rock throwing against Jews resulting in the injury and deaths of many innocent Israeli adults and children.

Instead of rebuking such heinous acts from its citizens, Palestinian authorities have reward violence against Israel and Jews by naming schools, hospitals, and streets after the murderers. A recent Palestinian opinion poll, from the Washington Institute for Near East Policy shows that an overwhelming majority of Palestinians opposes any goal other than the elimination the State of Israel.

Additionally, Israel finds itself in a sticky wicket because they are typically seen as the aggressor when responding to these deadly rock attacks. Media officials and photographers do nothing as Palestinian kids and teens pelt Jews with rocks. International journalists actually stand with the Palestinians and videotape them as they pelt cars with Israeli license plates. Cars like the one carrying Adele Biton, a 3 year-old who suffered traumatic brain injury after a rock flew through the cars windshield and struck her on the head, causing the car to crash into the back of a truck.

When Israeli soldiers detain the Palestinian perpetrators of these crimes – some of whom are young children — journalists will photograph the detaining and scream at the Israelis, saying they are innocent children. This type of media manipulation is all too common with journalists who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and looking to influence public opinion. This journalist bias is so common it's referred to as "Pallywood."



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/10/sticks-and-stones-do-break-my-bones/#ixzz37AjsYAdT

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM

There are plenty of Palestinians who were victimized that were not firing on Israelis. Firing with what? Rocks and bottles? Ridiculous point.

Plenty of Israelis who consider themselves "victims" who have a policy of "collective punishment". Genocide in Gaza will not solve the problem.

Hamas is a reaction to Israel's oppression. "Collective punishment" is cruel, inhuman and against any treaty or protocol in Geneva or elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM

JERUSALEM (AP) — Gaza health officials said Friday that strikes overnight killed a total of eight people, raising the death toll to at least 98. A later strike pushed the tally over 100 to go along with some 670 wounded, officials said.

Israeli leaders are mulling whether to launch a ground assault in Gaza.
During a ground incursion in early 2009, hundreds of civilians were killed and both sides drew war crimes accusations in a United Nations report.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

Israel's military "uses its weapons to defend its civilians. Hamas uses its civilians to defend its weapons,"

So, Jim:

Name ONE Palestinian killed who was not
1. Firing on or attacking (Israeli ) forces
2. Being used as a human shield by Hamas
3. In an area that was a legitimate military target- i.e., near a launcher that Hamas had set up.
4. In the quarters or operations center of an (Hamas) military leader



Now, name ONE Israeli victim of Hamas in the last two years who was ANY of :

1. Firing on or attacking (Palestinian ) forces
2. Being used as a human shield by Hamas
3. In an area that was a legitimate military target- i.e., near a launcher that Hamas had set up.
4. In the quarters or operations center of an (Israeli) military leader


So Israel follows the Geneva conventions, and Hamas does not. Hamas goes out of it's way to violate those conventions, in order to maximize PALESTINIAN civilian casualties, AND YOU SUPPORT THAT.

If Israel was TRYING to kill Palestinians, they would just carpet bomb the entire Gaza strip- Like the Allies did to Germany.

If you cannot see that Israel is trying to reduce the Palestinian civilian casualties, and that Hamas is trying to increase them, you are not only blind and bigoted, you are an incredible fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:53 AM

"Lerner said the military was doing its utmost to prevent civilian casualties"
Sure he did !!
The Palsinian death count has reached over 100, overwhelmingly civilians and a large percentage of these children.
This isn't counting those who were killed and injured immediately following the kidnapping of the three boys.
It seems the Israelis are using this as an opportunity not to be missed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:46 AM

Hamas spokesman calls on its people to act as human shields:

Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri

Meanwhile you can sure that he and his fellow Hamas officials are safely ensconced and enjoying the luxuries gleaned from the world's and Israel's largesse.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:15 AM

"Lerner said the military was doing its utmost to prevent civilian casualties, calling inhabitants ahead of time to warn of imminent attacks. He said Israeli forces also fire "non-explosive munitions" at roofs as a warning and looks for people to leave before destroying a structure.

Lerner blamed Hamas for the death of innocent bystanders by firing from heavily populated areas. Israel's military "uses its weapons to defend its civilians. Hamas uses its civilians to defend its weapons," he said."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:54 AM

"Area bombardment of civilian areas by anti-personnet weapons-"

The rockets launched by Hamas that you approve of ARE shown on TV, hitting Israel, or being intercepted.

You really are a shit for brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM

"AIMING at the launch site of an (illegal) rocket and trying to destroy the launcher IS SELF DEFENSE-More or less what the Nazis said when they mudered 1 in ten of the citizens of Lidice.
"You have stated you approval of the Hamas rockets,"
Where?
All I have ever said is they are small potatoes compared to Israeli atrocities - I don't approve of them and never have
Try to produce a coupe of words that aren't a pathetically obvios lie - it can be very cathartic.
"Area bombardment of civilian areas by anti-personnet weapons-"
If that is the case - not what has just been shown on our television - it is a first for Israel, who have regarded hospitals and schools fair game for their bombe, particularly their chemicals
As for refugees and Bedouins - a national blood-sport.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:53 PM

"Just watching the Palestinian casualties being carried on stretchers"


Who were killed BY HAMAS- They bear the legal responsibility according to the Geneva Conventions, which PROHIBIT

1. Area bombardment of civilian areas by anti-personnet weapons- BEING DONE ONLY BY HAMAS.
2. Siting of launch areas and military operations in civilian areas such as homes, apartments, schools, and hospitals -BEING DONE ONLY BY HAMAS.
3. Use of Human shields to purposely increase civilian casualties- DONE ONLY BY HAMAS.


And YOU criticize Israel, and keep silent about Hamas.- That makes you both bigot and an advocate of the murder of Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:42 PM

Jim,

You have stated you approval of the Hamas rockets, and declared that Israel does not have the right to attack those launchers (i.e., self-defense).

Look back at your own posts- Nothing but advocating terrorism and murder by YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

anyone concerned about the deliberate targeting of civilians in this conflict should first look at Hamas. The rocket fire from Gaza into Israel began well before the Israeli assault on Gaza. Initially, the rockets were Islamic Jihad's idea. But in the last few days, Hamas has joined in with gusto, claiming credit for missiles fired at several Israeli cities, including Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Haifa.

Apologists for Hamas argue that its weapons are less precise than Israel's, so collateral damage is inevitable. That won't wash. Hamas now has longer-range missiles, known as M-302s or R-160s, that are more precise than its clumsy old Grad rockets. It has been firing the new missiles at cities anyway. Hamas has also flatly rejected the principle of sparing civilians. According to a Hamas spokesman, "All Israelis have now become legitimate targets."

I've criticized Israel for demolishing the West Bank homes of suspected Arab terrorists. That policy is indefensible. But in the Gaza war, it's clear that Israel has gone to great lengths to minimize civilian deaths. The same can't be said of Hamas.

Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:40 PM

The worst civilian death toll—seven, at the latest count—occurred in a strike on the Khan Yunis home of a terrorist commander. Hamas calls it a "massacre against women and children." But residents say the family got both a warning call and a knock on the roof. An Israeli security official says Israeli forces didn't fire their missile until the family had left the house. The official didn't understand why some members of the family, and apparently their neighbors, went back inside. The residents say they were trying to "form a human shield."

Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM

According to many critics, Israel is slaughtering civilians in Gaza. It's "purposefully wiping out entire families," says an Arab member of Israel's parliament. It's committing "genocide—the murder of entire families," says Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority. Iran says Israel has committed "massacres against the defenseless Palestinians."

The charges are false. By the standards of war, Israel's efforts to spare civilians have been exemplary.

Israel didn't choose this fight. Hamas and Islamic Jihad, the terrorist organizations that dominate Gaza, claim that Israel provoked the conflict by arresting Hamas members in the
West Bank. But arrests in one territory don't justify aerial bombardment from another. Israel didn't hit Gaza until terrorists had fired more than 150 rockets into Israel and had rejected a cease-fire.

Slate

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:31 PM

Jim,

I note you have NEVER asked that Hamas stop firing at civilians.


Of course, lots of those civilians are just Jews, so we can't expect YOU to think they are human beings.



"Military spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said Israel struck more than 320 Hamas targets overnight, focusing on underground tunnel networks and rocket launching sites. In all, the military has struck 750 sites since the offensive began on Tuesday.

Israel has mobilized 20,000 reservists for a possible ground operation into Gaza, but for the time remains focused on maximizing its air campaign, Lerner said. A ground invasion could lead to heavier civilian casualties on the Palestinian side and put Israeli ground forces in danger.

Neither side is showing any sign of halting their heaviest fighting since an eight-day battle in late 2012. Israel says that Hamas must cease rocket fire from Gaza for Israel to consider a truce. Militants have fired hundreds of rockets, striking across the length of Israel and disrupting life across the country."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM

The IDF is giving advance warning of it's strikes. Hamas is telling the people to stay put and to bring their children to act as shields. Those who blame Israel for civilian deaths are suffering from pathological hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:20 PM

The BLOOD of those civilians, both Israeli AND PALESTINIAN, is on YOUR hands for your support of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:18 PM

Jim,

AIMING at the launch site of an (illegal) rocket and trying to destroy the launcher IS SELF DEFENSE-

IT IS A WAR CRIME to PLACE that launcher in a civilian locale, as well as launching those rockets AT A CIVILIAN POPULATION as Hamas has been doing.

YOU are saying that Jews cannot defend themselves LEGALLY while you keep silent on the WAR CRIMES being committed by your friends in Hamas.

This is anti-Semitism AS DEFINED BY THE EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM

"It takes someone with a sick and twisted mind and an obsessive hatred of Jews to call self-defense terrorism."
Just watching the Palestinian casualties being carried on stretchers
Terrorism against civilians it is.
"Jim has always told us that Jews do not have the right to defend themselves."
I have never told anybody anything of the sort - show me where
Slaughtering civilians is not self-defence it is simple murder.
If it is, the slaughter of the occupants of Lidice can only be considered "self defence"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM

Jim has always told us that Jews do not have the right to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:01 PM

It takes someone with a sick and twisted mind and an obsessive hatred of Jews to call self-defense terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:56 PM

UNITED NATIONS, N.Y. — Evidence that Hamas is firing more sophisticated weapons at Israel – including longer-range rockets – than in past conflicts is focusing a new light on Iran's role in arming the militant organization.

As Israel is contending with rockets launched from Hamas-controlled Gaza that are reaching deeper into its territory, a classified United Nations Security Council report concludes that a shipment of weapons intercepted by Israel on a cargo boat in the Red Sea last March originated in the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas.

At the time, Iranian officials denied any knowledge of the arms, which were found in 20 crates buried under bags of cement. Iran is barred from exporting weaponry under an arms embargo approved by the Security Council in 2007.

The captain of the ship, the Klos-C, was questioned by Israeli authorities. The Security Council report apparently does not establish the ultimate destination of the arms shipment, but the method of using building materials to cover over arms shipments has been used in the past to smuggle arms into Gaza.

But one reason the arms shipment – and the Security Council Sanctions Committee's report on it – are drawing interest now is that under the bags of cement and among thousands of rounds of ammunition were tucked several dozen M-302 rockets. It's the same longer-range, larger-payload rocket that Israel reports has been fired from Gaza in the current fighting.

On Wednesday, Israeli officials said an M-302 rocket landed outside the city of Hadera, about 70 miles north of Gaza. Rockets have also reached the greater Tel Aviv area, officials said. The M-302 has a range of about 115 miles.

The findings of the Security Council's Sanctions Committee, first reported by The Wall Street Journal, would constitute more than just a black eye for Iran. The arms shipment would be a violation of a Security Council resolution, an act that could subject Iran to council action.

On Wednesday, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon's spokesman, Stephane Dujarric, placed responsibility for the report with the Security Council and said it would be up to that body to take any further action.

"These reports are done by independent experts hired by the Sanctions Committee," Mr. Dujarric said, adding that it's "up to the Security Council to address the findings of these reports."

Asked if Mr. Ban has seen the report, he said, "That's what I have for you on that."

Evidence of Iran arming the region's anti-Israel militant organizations is nothing new. But the Security Council report comes just as some Western powers, including the US, have suggested they could be open to wider cooperation with Tehran on how to respond to turmoil in Iraq and the recent advances made there by the Islamist extremist group the Islamist State of Iraq and the Levant, or ISIS.

Israeli officials say the goal of their military operation in Gaza is to destroy as much as possible of the military infrastructure and arms supplies that Hamas has built up since a cease-fire went into effect in 2012.

Hamas is estimated to have about 10,000 rockets – including perhaps several dozen M-302 rockets – an arsenal that some Israeli experts say Hamas was able to build up as a result of good relations with the Muslim Brotherhood government that ruled in Egypt from 2012 until mid-2013. But now that government is gone, buoying Israeli confidence that it can seriously degrade the Hamas arsenal.

Still, the amount and increased sophistication of the accumulated armaments is part of the reason Israeli officials say the ongoing operation won't be over soon.

"This isn't going to be a short mission," Israeli military spokeswoman Libby Weiss said this week. "It's not going to be one night and done."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:00 PM

Sounds like you support Hamas to me.



I guess violation of the Geneva Conventions, both in attacking civilians with anti-personnel rockets, and in launching those rockets from civilian areas such as homes, apartments, schools and hospitals, in order to inflict civilian casualties on their own population is what you support- Hamas is just your preferred method.

Civilian blood is on YOUR hands, Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

Whatever their failings, (I am certainly no supporter) Hamas stands between Israeli and total annihilation of their own people.
Protests about the rockets echo faintly next to the blockade, the bombardments that are now taking place, chemical weapons, the destruction of homes..... not to mention the massacre of 30,500 refugees - to put it completely in context.
Terrorism is a movable feast when it comes to warfare.
The State of Israel only came into existence due to acts of terrorism- now proud moments in Israel's history.
America has adopted terrorist tactics in the Middle East, South East Asia and South America in order to crush Governments it didn't approve of.
Nelson Mandela was "a terrorist" - I know because that nice Mrs Thatcher told me so.
Today's terrorist is quite often tomorrow's national hero.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of terrorism, Palestinian rockets stand small next to Israel's past and present terrorism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM

I spent hours yesterday morning and afternoon trying to convince my main Hamas contact to speak to his leaders to call for an immediately unconditional 24 hour ceasefire in order to prevent the escalation. My message made it all the way up to Khaled Mashal. I wanted to try to prevent the inevitable death of innocent people and the destruction that this war would cause.

The Hamas leadership decided to ignore the possibility of the ceasefire and challenged Israel to "bring it on". These irresponsible leaders are criminals to their own people. I can honestly say that Netanyahu did not want to escalate this war. It is so unfortunate that these Hamas leaders, some sitting in hotel abroad and others safely hiding underground in Gaza put the innocent people of Gaza in the direct line of fire. This is criminal.

Force alone will never be a proper response to the problems of human suffering. Israel had to respond with force, I am sorry to say, but Israel must also present a plan for addressing the real and urgent human needs of the 1.7 million people in Gaza, or else this ongoing war never end.

Gershon Baskin

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM

An Israeli Muslim Arab has written to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stressing that if the Jewish state truly wants peace, it must remove from power the terror groups that current hold sway over the Palestinian population, and instead deal directly with average Arabs who just want to live quietly.

In a post on his Facebook page, Ali Shaban, who volunteered for combat service in the IDF and continues to do reserve duty to this day, urged Netanyahu to "act now, do not waver or fear. The Palestinians understand only force, and if you do not attack now, then you and me and all Israelis will pay a dear price."

This Muslim's recommendation? "Conquer Gaza. Conquer the West Bank. Overthrow Hamas and [Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas'] Fatah. Establish and support a new leadership for the Palestinian people, a leadership that will seek peace and a better life for us all."

Israeli Muslim: We Must Destroy Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:47 AM

Most people in Gaza do not support Hamas, they are a terrorist organization who came to power in Gaza by lining up and shooting all their rivals including the legitimate security forces of the PA who were supposed to be running Gaza.

They run a North Korea style regime over Gaza which they unlawfully occupy, in which a person who lives there can get killed for even making a Facebook post critical of the Hamas regime. They are intimidating the local population into obedience and the local population is afraid to revolt against their brutal regime.

They are the reason why Gaza has poor relations with both of it's neighbors, Israel and Egypt and why those two borders are sealed. They routinely initiate violent attacks against the Israeli civilian population in order to incur Israeli responses and generate civilian casualties among the people of Gaza so that they can create the illusion of 'protecting' the population of Gaza against the 'occupier' Israel who had in reality left the territory 9 years ago, while they in fact occupy Gaza though violent intimidation of the local population.

Israel must liberate the good people of Gaza and free them from the tyranny of their oppressors. They must enact a total regime change in Gaza and replace Hamas with a locally elected government of Gazans for Gazans to run their daily affairs.

Israel must, after it has removed the tyrannical Hamas regime, make serious investments in the infrastructure and quality of life for the people in Gaza, they are going to need to provide a high level of service for the people in Gaza such that they would never say that 'things were better with Hamas in charge', Israel can make things a million times better for the people in Gaza and it must commit itself to doing so, so that Gaza can be a sustainable, self sufficient and functioning territory regardless of what state in the region it ultimately becomes a part of.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:37 AM

Jim,

You rally need to read your OWN posts.


YOU state above:
""I have shown that Israel dOES NOT negotiate with HAMAS."
And I have shown that nobody is asking them to, and never has."


But in the Caliphate thread, YOU state:
"Even Israel's strongest ally, the United States, declared that she Israel's behaviour was the direct cause of scuppering the last on - not Hamas."

So Israel was being asked to negotiate with Hamas, without Hamas changing their statement of destroying Israel, killing Jews, and never negotiating in good faith.


If this is not stating that SOMEONE is asking them to negotiate with Hamas, I think there is no purpose to any further debate- There can be no agreement on reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:28 AM

"I have shown that Israel dOES NOT negotiate with HAMAS."
And I have shown that nobody is asking them to, and never has.
If you believe that negotiating with the Palestinians is equivalent to negotiating with Hamas and is a betrayal of the Jewish people, count the number of times Israel has participated in peace talks with the Palestinians and you will have arrived at a total of how many times Israel has betrayed the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

I have shown that Israel dOES NOT negotiate with HAMAS.


I have shown that YOU demand that Israel negotiate with the present Palestinian government of Gaza, IE HAMAS.


If you don't understand this difference, then you really do think that all Arabs look alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM

"Waiting on YOUR payment of that donation to FSGW."
You have yet to show my supporting terrorism any more than the Israeli Government has by holding peace talks with the Palestinians
You appear to share Keith's talent of lying in public and not being embarrassed when caught out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:37 AM

Waiting on YOUR payment of that donation to FSGW.


Still.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:34 AM

Take it we've finished wit me and Hamas
Don't suppose an apology is forthcoming - thought not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:51 AM

"According to the Israeli Defense Forces, 40 percent of the Israeli population is now within firing range of Hamas rockets. Residents in the south of Israel have been warned to stay within a short distance of bomb shelters ta all times. Once an air siren goes off, residents have only fifteen seconds to reach a shelter.

Since Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, during which Israel attacked Hamas in response to rocket fire against Israeli civilians, the terrorist organization Hamas has added over 10,000 rockets and missiles. Hamas produces some of these rockets in Gaza, but most come from Iran. The rockets have a 75 kilometer radius, and threaten 3.5 million Israelis."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM

" "not a shot was fired or a sabre drawn""
Hundreds of miners were injured and one was killed - self-harm perhaps Trooper Tommy?
BBC
More than 800 people were injured during the lockout.
Feckin wannabe soldier
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ringer
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM

"Since the Palestinian police force, whatever it is, is not allowed to have any teeth or ability that contradicts Israeli occupation, it is being suppressed by Israel."

Israeli occupation? What or where is Israel occupying?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

Priceless Christmas - absolutely priceless:

"Winston Churchill - the butcher of Tonypandy" - According to Christmas

Did you actually read that link? Get to bit at the end when it stated that the fact of the matter was that "not a shot was fired or a sabre drawn" - So then Christmas who was butchered? By whom? And how?

Yet another one of your Myths exploded Christmas, if nothing else your time on this forum can only be viewed as educational.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:22 AM

"Winston Churchill - Champion of Liberty, Scourge of Fascism"
So, the butcher of Tonypandy said it - it must be true.
TONYPANDY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:48 AM

Stringsinger your post throws up two interesting points:

1: "Since the Palestinian police force, whatever it is, is not allowed to have any teeth or ability
that contradicts Israeli occupation, it is being suppressed by Israel. That's how it's going."

Could you please explain to us all how and why the Israelis would hamper the efforts of the Palestinian law enforcement agencies to bring to justice the killers of three Jewish teenagers? I would have thought that they would be providing all the assistance that they could possibly give, wouldn't you?

2: "The reordering of religious holidays does not address the fundamental issue that the two religions are diametrically opposed. Judaism and Islam are religious enemies."

The fact is that every other religion in the world as well as every atheist and agnostic in the world have been declared the enemy of Islam. The converse is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:11 PM

"It is manifestly right that the Jews, who are scattered all over the world, should have a national center and a National Home where some of them may be reunited. And where else could that be but in the land of Palestine, with which for more than 3,000 years they have been intimately and profoundly associated?"

Winston Churchill - Champion of Liberty, Scourge of Fascism

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:45 PM

Take a look at how the Palestinian propaganda machine fans the flames of Jew hatred by playing to the antiSemites and their useful idiots: BBC News

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:32 PM

If the Prime Minister of Israel describes the murder of an Arab child as terrorism, if the Defense Minister describes the murder of an Arab child as terrorism, if the Ministry of Foreign Affairs describes the murder of an Arab child as terrorism, then it is terrorism.
No denial, no hiding. Address it. Get rid of it!

Netanyahu: We Don't Differentiate Between Arab, Jewish Terror

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM

"Now how is the Palestine Authority investigation into the kidnap and murder of the three Israeli youngsters progressing?"

Since the Palestinian police force, whatever it is, is not allowed to have any teeth or ability
that contradicts Israeli occupation, it is being suppressed by Israel. That's how it's going.

The reordering of religious holidays does not address the fundamental issue that the two religions are diametrically opposed. Judaism and Islam are religious enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM

Dr.Tawfik Hamid is an Islamic thinker and reformer and one time Islamic extremist from Egypt. He was a member of a terrorist Islamic organization, J.I., with Dr.Ayman Al-Zawaherri who later became second-in-command of Al-Qaeda. Some twenty five years ago he recognized the threat of Radical Islam and a need for reformation based upon a modern, peaceful interpretation of classical Islamic core texts.

Dr.Tawfik Hamid: stop exploiting Palestine as wedge against Jewish Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:07 AM

A ray of sunshine peeking through the dark storm clouds, this is how peace is made:

The families of murdered Israeli teen Naftali Fraenkel and murdered Palestinian teen Mohammed Abu Khdeir are drawing comfort from an unexpected source: each other... ... The Palestinian visitors also mentioned an initiative spearheaded by Jews and Muslims to transform July 15, the Jewish fast day known as 17 Tammuz, into a joint fast day for people of both religions who wish to express their desire to end violence in the region.

http://forward.com/articles/201500/families-of-slain-israeli-and-palestinian-teens-tu/#ixzz36kUKrbgd

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM

Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon condemned on Sunday the brutal kidnapping-murder last week of Palestinian teen Muhammed Abu Khdeir by suspected Jewish terrorists, saying the suspects would be treated as severely as Arab terrorists.

"I am embarrassed and horrified at the cruel murder of the young Muhammed Abu Khdeir," Ya'alon said in a statement posted to his Facebook page on Sunday evening.

"These debased murderers don't represent the Jewish people or its values, and they must be treated as terrorists," the defense minister said. "We will not allow Jewish terrorists from our midst to disrupt the fabric of the many different communities in the state of Israel, and to harm innocents just because they are Arabs."

"We must battle the perpetrators [of such actions], and those who deploy them, with an iron fist."

Read more: Defense minister calls for Jewish killers to be treated as terrorists | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/defense-minister-calls-for-jewish-killers-to-be-treated-as-terrorists/#ixzz36mrVRFbi

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:15 AM

"They'll beat up anyone regardless of race, creed, or national origin."
Bit more selective than that - they haven't much of a track record of sending tanks into Israeli communities and settlements and dropping white phosphorous on their schools and bulldozing their homes into the ground.
"Israeli police have made arrests"
New news totally devoid of detail here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:48 AM

Surprised that no-one has seen fit to mention that Israeli police have made arrests in connection with the murder of Mohamed Abu Khdeir:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/06/israel-arrests-abu-khdeir-killing

Now how is the Palestine Authority investigation into the kidnap and murder of the three Israeli youngsters progressing?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

Just shows that Israel is democratic and equal opportunity, Jim. They'll beat up anyone regardless of race, creed, or national origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

Israeli forces have been filmed beating up an American citizen - the cousin of the murdered Palestinian boy
ROUGH "JUSTICE"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM

"Too many Palestinians are imprisoned in Israel today. This is done in the name of Zionism."
.,,.

Not sure in what sense the term "Zionism" is being used here; or in this thread generally.

"Zionism" was the name of an idealistic/political movement among world Jewry, from late C19 up to the declaration of the state of Israel in 1948, dedicated to the establishment of a Jewish State in the territory of the ancient Mount Zion and the land of which it formed the symbolic centre, known at the time generally as Palestine. With the 1948 establishment of the state of Israel, the term, and the movement it designated, became a dead letter as its purposes had been fulfilled.

It seems now to have been resuscitated as a synonym for the accusations of militant territorialism on Israel's part which have been rubricated by such authorities as the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), as a mask and cover for antisemitism, plain & simple. I have already pointed out to Jim the unwisdom of using the term, which he has accordingly forsworn; and would draw the possible ideological and other misunderstandings, liable to arise due to the using this obsolete but emotively used term, to the attention of Stringsinger & others.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM

It transpires that the Haaratz "honour" killing used by Keith to defend his gutter posting, refers to a rumour spread by the police that the victim was killed by the family of a girl he had supposedly 'dishonoured'.
The same police spread the rumour that he was gay.
"Israeli police falsely report missing Palestinian by was gay, flooding social media with disinformation
Tikun Olam 2 July by Richard Silverstein — Yesterday night, I noticed several Israeli Facebook users infecting my feed with false claims that Mohamed Abu Khdeir, the 16 year-old who was murdered by suspected Jewish terrorists, was killed in an honor crime because he was gay. With the help of an Israeli friend, I traced the rumor to, of all places, the Israeli police (Hebrew). They leaked (Hebrew) this false information to the media, which dutifully reported it as if it was true (it wasn't). The police claim (made anonymously of course) that it had "information" Abu Khdeir was gay was false. But this calumny spread like the wind, and a credulous Israeli public eager to believe the worst of Palestinians and refusing to take any responsibility for their own brethren spilling the blood of a Palestinian, took to social media like a raging plague and spread this bile everywhere."
The inquest on his body has shown that he was burned alive
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:33 PM

Palestinians are being beaten up by Jewish Settlers, at least one Palestinian per day.
Too many Palestinians are imprisoned in Israel today. This is done in the name of Zionism.
BDS will continue to grow as these atrocities are being uncovered. Gaza is still an open air prison and Israeli laws have curtailed the day to day rights of the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 10:35 AM

who appeared to denounce Jesus as "a tiresome git"

You're kidding, right? You can't be THAT much of an illiterate, or are you simply an idiot?

In fact, looking again, I find he is one I have already resolved to ignore,

Ooops.

Well. ~M~, It's just that "Islamism" is a term, & a concept, with a complex history & multiple possible connotations, and so IMO best avoided in the interests of clarity, and an alternative found if possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 06:50 AM

Will be more careful next time Mike -remind me next time I go ballistic, as is my wont
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM

I appreciate, Jim, that you intended no offence. It's just that "Zionism" is a term, & a concept, with a complex history & multiple possible connotations, and so IMO best avoided in the interests of clarity, and an alternative found if possible. "Israeli militancy", say, might be used instead. The Israelis are sure-as-hell a militant lot...

The fool a couple of posts back, who appeared to denounce Jesus as "a tiresome git" because he can't control his own sentences, is best ignored.

In fact, looking again, I find he is one I have already resolved to ignore, but forgot to read the name at the top for once. Must be more careful!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:51 AM

I use the term Zionism in the same way others use 'Islamism' - if one is offensive, both are.
I certainly have no ill-feelings to the idea of a homeland for the Jewish people, though I baulk at the idea of that homeland being exclusively Jewish - an apartheid state.
Perhaps a prefix 'extremist' might be a way not to give offence - happy to oblige.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

That's right, Boo- its a "code word" used by anti-Semites; anti-Semites being anyone who opposes Israeli government policy.

Jesus, you're a tiresome git.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:38 PM

I agree with you MtheGM, it is too often used as a euphemism. Here is some background on the term and its usage: Anti-Zionism

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:22 PM

The use of the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse is much to be deplored.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:07 PM

Which says exactly this and no more:
"Murder of Palestinian teen was no 'honor killing,' says his family
16-year-old Mohammed Abu Khdeir's kidnap-murder set off rioting in East Jerusalem throughout Wednesday."
What the **** is an "honor killing" - gang warfare, an irate father... it certainly isn't the "revenge killing" that is under discussion.
No explanation, no 'dysfunctional family" - no "criminal act" just a an unqualified headline.
Today, at the funeral, the parents were still blaming the killing on Israeli extremists and a article discussing CCTV footage of the kidnap was still heralding it as a revenge killing.
There are no press or news reports tonight to claim otherwise - I have little doubt if any contrary information has been forthcoming Gatestone, et al would be crowing it from the rooftops - it is still being treated as a "revenge killing" both on the news and on the net.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:50 PM

I did this morning.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602736

I am off now for a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM

"The same story was in Haaretz and elsewhere."
Where- can you link us to something we can open that repeats what your Zionist rag claims?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM

The same story was in Haaretz and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

"You would conceal any such information?"
There is no such "information" - today's reports of the funeral are still calling it a revenge attack, the parents of the boy called it a revenge attack, The John Kerry has deplored it as a revenge attack, The Times of Israel has said it is probably a revenge attack, witnesses saw the boy being bundled into a car by settlers.....
Whatever it turns out to be, as it stands at present, it is overwhelmingly regarded as a revenge attack - so what do you do?
You produce a statement from a minor official published in a paper that is even beyond the pale for the Israeli government, claiming that it was an act of criminals and blaming the victim's 'dysfunctional' family.
You have surpassed even yourself her by putting up "information" claiming that "Israel didn't do it", even before they get round to doing so themselves - which they possibly will.
Maybe you should give that nice Nessie-the-Yahoo a quick call telling him to call off the investigation because the real villain has been found.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:13 AM

You would conceal any such information?
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:33 AM

"Let's keep an open mind."
Where on earth are you going to find anyone willing to lend you one of those?
You chose a shitty Zionist attack on the parents of the dead child to display how "open" your mind is - "that'll do nicely", as the ad says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:34 AM

Your Time article is dated yesterday.
The story of the previous attempted kidnapping was not available then.
The parents had no way of identifying the kidnappers of the murdered boy.
Let's keep an open mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

I saw fit to denounce the boy's killing as despicable the day it happened.

If we are following the situation, how can we fail to comment on an attempted kidnap of a younger son the previous day.
It is unlikely to be unconnected, but I have not made my mind up as you accuse.

Your statement "a revenge killing nobody sees fit to comment on" shows you have made your mind up, and is false in regard to no-one seeing fit to comment.
I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM

In fact the boys parents say it was a gang of Israeli settlers who murded their son
TIME
It seems that the "troubled family" and "criminal killing" was a Zionist exclusive.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM

"I saw fit"
You saw fit to produce a scurrilous piece of shit denigrating the dead child's parents and suggesting that it was a criminal killing -at a time when Israeli mobs were on the streets hunting out Arabs to beat up.
The Haaretz link which you later dug out to justify your gutter behaviour, gives no such detail, only a headline and a lead-in, and if I were a subscriber, and found it does, it is no less irresponsible at this particular time.
You claimed the link you provided contained none of those claims "None of those claims were in the piece I linked to." - you actually provided this, which does
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182474#.U7ZWofldUuc
Why aploogise to somewone stupid enough to tell lies over a space of a couple of postings.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM

The same story is in Haaretz and elsewhere.

a revenge killing nobody sees fit to comment on

I saw fit.

Take it back?
Apologise?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM

This was the piece you linked to, which was as despicable piece of sewer journalism as you could get - typical of the lowest of the sewer press, and fairly topicality of your level of argument
(04 Jul 14 - 03:31 AM)
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182474#.U7ZWofldUuc
Have you stopped reading your own links as well as everybody else's? again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:24 AM

None of those claims were in the piece I linked to.
The same story is here in Haaretz.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602736

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:46 AM

By the way - I find your link from an extremist Zionist publication which has been refused a license from the Israeli Government fairly despicable.
To claim that the murdered Palestinian boy came from a "troubled family" and his death was likely to be "a criminal act", and to head the article with a photograph of a boy throwing stones (totally unconnected to the victim), is about as manipulative as it gets, and in the present circumstances, extremely inflammatory.
To attempt to introduce it into this argument at a stage where we know so little is sewer-dredging in the extreme.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:30 AM

"It has yet to be determined if it was a revenge killing for the Jewish boys"
Just as it is yet to be determined who killed those boys - hasn't stopped the lynch mobs though.
Despite this fact, since their disappearance "nine Palestinians were killed, two died of heart attack when the army raided their houses, tens were injured, many were orphaned, 640 were arrested, and families saw their homes demolished by the Israeli army."
Hardly "Israel must be the only country in the world which is expected to accept the execution of three of its citizens without doing everything within its power to eradicate those responsible" - as you put up.
It is hardly surprising that the rocket attacks have increased, given the overkill (in every sense) that is taking place at the present time.
There is a great deal of confusion surrounding the claimed attempted kidnapping of the Palestinian boy - hardly surprising in the circumstances - but you seem to have made up your mind on that one as well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

I commented, 02 Jul 14 - 02:38 PM
Two days ago.

It has yet to be determined if it was a revenge killing for the Jewish boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:33 AM

"That was a different one silly."
That was me being ironic about a revenge killing nobody sees fit to comment on - silly!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:31 AM

An attempt was made to kidnap a younger brother the previous morning!

"However, Nussbaum said, police were quite definitive that another call the family made to police on Tuesday turned out not to be the emergency the Abu Khadrs claimed it was. On Tuesday, police said, the mother called police to say that "settlers" had tried to kidnap her younger son. She said that individuals had stopped a car in front of her house where she was sitting with her son, and that they tried to grab him. She managed to hold onto him, she said, and they left, at which point she called police.

Officers arrived a few minutes later to take her statement, in which she said "settlers" had tried to kidnap her son, but could give no details. However, a few minutes later the father arrived, and he disputed his wife, saying that it was Arabs who tried to kidnap the son."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182474#.U7ZWofldUuc

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:18 AM

Jim, no.
That was a different one silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:14 AM

Hamas have belatedly offered to stop the criminal missile attacks against Israeli civilians.
A breakthrough at last.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:10 AM

Palestinians Fake Kidnap Report of Youth by 'Israeli Settlers'
WOULD THIS BE THE ONE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:24 AM

"So T-bird: all those "leaders" have been elected by a unanimous vote?" - Greg F

No Greg at least not in Israel where political parties of more than one persuasion are allowed to stand for election, but even with the vote in a democratic process in Israel the coalitions formed look to Israel's security first and foremost.

Now in "Palestine" on the other hand even on the rare occasions that they have elections the results tend to be ignored and the side with the most firepower in the area wins and having got into power then find reasons to cancel all future elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:05 AM

"Start a thread on Egypt, or Syria and I will give my opinion on either, but I am not going to waste my life falling into the inanity of pointless and topicless nonsense."
.,,.

Well you coulda fooled me, Troub!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:28 PM

Palestinians Fake Kidnap Report of Youth by 'Israeli Settlers'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:55 PM

"And yet Musket all those decent people in Israel and in Palestine for all their frustration and shame still persist in voting for and supporting the same "Leaders" - strange that isn't it?"

When both populations are offered only the choice between BAD or WORSE, the decent ones have to choose or abstain, and whichever path they take, they still wind up with either BAD, or WORSE!

I'd love to hear what YOU can offer in the way of a third alternative, both for Palestinians and Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:37 PM

"could not carry any vote without the support of a minimum 47 non Muslim majority states voting in their favour."

Do some research on the number of abstainers.... before showing yourself up for a fool."

Prat! For your 50 to carry a vote, it would require no more than 49 voting against. In other words 93 abstainers, which is ridiculous.

So there would have to be more non Muslim majority states voting WITH your 50, than AGAINST.

It's not rocket science!    Simple arithmetic, which I realise isn't your forte.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:30 PM

"You also wrote that you did not participate in the referenced thread. I cannot know that since I don't know who you are (anonymity, again). If you are GT, I recall that there were no posts you. But I never claimed there were, so what's your point?"

You are correct and I apologise for posting before realising that I hadn't signed.

My point was that a thread with absolutely NO topic, is utterly useless, and to start anything with the label "except Israel" equally useless, which is why I posted nothing to it.

Start a thread on Egypt, or Syria and I will give my opinion on either, but I am not going to waste my life falling into the inanity of pointless and topicless nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:19 PM

"I'll try it again - you have no evidence that they are not members of Hamas."

In both your country and mine, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.

You have to PROVE that Hamas are responsible, Get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:15 PM

"We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid."

YEAH! YEAH! We hear it all the time. Only Israeli Law is to be considered valid, backed by stupid Yanks.

UN says illegal, and not because there are 50 Muslim states out of 192, but because Israel and the US don't recognise the UN, unless it is agreeing with their interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

"Do some research on the number of abstainers.... before showing yourself up for a fool."

Abstainers may be present on both sides of any vote, and usually abstaining indicates those who lack the guts to vote for anything contentious, such as voting against the US position on Israel's exemption from any and all criticism.

More gullible fools on YOUR side than ours!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:02 PM

"An IDF spokesperson would neither confirm nor deny the report."

Precisely why it is so difficult to give credence to the utterings and the integrity of Israeli sources.

The murder of the three Israeli kids is an atrocity and those responsible should suffer the severest penalty, IF, and only IF, the Israelis mete out the same to the murderer(s) of the Palestinian kid in East Jerusalem.

As yet, there is no evidence that Hamas had any part in the former, nor evidence that Israel (in the form of the IDF) had any part in the latter.

Yet Israeli apologists will insist that the former was a Hamas atrocity, while the latter was a misguided individual unconnected with the Israeli government, or army.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:28 PM

Greg, your question was silly.

Take it up with TerraBus, FW.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:56 PM

Same piece (Irish Independent)

In fact, Israel must be the only country in the world which is expected to accept the execution of three of its citizens without doing everything within its power to eradicate those responsible. But then they are used to being asked to stoically accept atrocities without retaliating, because when they do push back they are then accused of being 'disproportionate' in their response. This ignores the fact that Hamas routinely launch their rockets into southern towns like Sderot from schoolyards in Gaza, safe in the knowledge that any retaliation will provide the kind of footage that fools people into believing the Israelis like nothing better than bombing schools.

Eighty rockets have fallen on their soil in the last month. Would we expect any other country to sit on their fingers, hoping that the brave freedom fighters of Hamas will simply become bored and return to their mosques?

These are the questions which Israel's oh-so-liberal opponents need to ask themselves – does Israel encourage its citizens to strap on suicide belts and get on a bus? Does Israel execute gay people or women who wear immodest dress? Does Israel openly call for the destruction of another country and the genocide of its citizens? (And, in a case of business before pleasure, Hamas openly declares that they will first kill those Palestinians who have made a life for themselves across the border.)

Do opposing factions of the Knesset openly kill each other on the streets, as we saw Hamas do to members of their rival Fatah?
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/how-dare-israel-defend-itself-we-only-like-them-when-theyre-victims-30398921.html#sthash.ocmemgMn.h9tGz898.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:42 PM

But there is a world of difference between the only democracy in a region which is rapidly reverting to open savagery and a terrorist organisation which has the complete destruction of a neighbouring country as the central plank of their constitution. But we will still see any Israeli response condemned by those useful idiots in the West who insist that Hamas is a legitimate, democratic organisation. It's not, it never has been and it doesn't want to be.

Professional ideologues, and those simply too stupid to make up their own mind, would have you believe that Hamas probably didn't do it, but if they did, they must have had a good reason. This is the kind of wilful ignorance – even the Palestinian security services agree that it was Hamas – that compels people to justify or explain the murders with counter-accusations and slurs before resorting to some nonsense about the IDF being as bad as the Nazis, and Israel being some of sort of Zionist, apartheid Fourth Reich.

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/how-dare-israel-defend-itself-we-only-like-them-when-theyre-victims-30398921.html#sthash.ocmemgMn.BXqxNf2F.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

Thank you, Jim; but my birthday [82] was back in May.

No, regret never met him.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:36 PM

Greg, your question was silly.
No democracies require a unanimous vote.
Very silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

"I see nothing barbarian in any recent exchanges, Jim."
Must be mellowing in our old ages - happy birthday by the way - if there is such a thing past sixty (another one due in 3 weeks)
Here's to more civilisation!
Jim
Have been meaning to ask - did you know Mike Herring - if so, whatever became of him?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:07 PM

"do regret us being unable to communicate in a civilised manner
Jim"
.,,.

???????

I see nothing barbarian in any recent exchanges, Jim. Seem perfectly civilised [& civil} to me...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM

No Greg. What a silly question.

Take it up with TerraBus, FW.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:09 AM

Palestinian elections 2005 - Israeli style.
"Obstruction by Israel[edit]
The election campaign faced problems due to the widespread blockade of the Palestinian territories by the Israel Defense Forces. Despite Israel's assurances that it would do what it could to ensure that the election took place, in many instances Israeli forces actively interfered in the campaign.
Among reported incidents was the arrest of Mustafa Barghouti by Israeli forces and his subsequent expulsion from East Jerusalem when he was going to hold an election speech there. He was also prevented from entering Nablus and Gaza. Bassam al-Salhi, candidate for the socialist Palestinian People's Party, was also prevented from visiting East Jerusalem. Many of Abbas' opponents claimed that they were unfairly treated as Israel denied them entry to areas Abbas was allowed to visit during the election campaign. Abbas was the only candidate allowed access to Gaza.
Voter registration was hampered by closure of registration centers due to curfews, roadblocks and road closures. Registration staff and supervisors were detained. Israeli troops, used gas grenades and noise in the vicinity. A number of centers were raided.[1]
Particularly East Jerusalem was affected. Checking of the names of voters in the voters list was prevented. Also the polling was supervised by the Israeli postal authority. The votes were not counted at the polling centers themselves, but first transported to the Jerusalem electoral constituency office in Dahiyat al-Barid. [2] Voters were intimidated by recording the ID card numbers that were listed in the register and registration staff members were detained.[3]
There were difficulties in accessing polling stations. In Khan Younis Israeli soldiers opened fire against a school used as a polling station and by roadblocks prevented thousands of people from getting to the polling stations.[4]
The European Union's foreign policy chief Javier Solana criticized Israel for obstructing the Palestinian presidential election. He was quoted as saying that "We expected the Israelis to offer more facilities for the Palestinian election process but they did not live up to promises." [4]"
PALESTINIAN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION 2005
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

They have about the same or more support than Obama has, from election results.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM

No Greg.
What a silly question.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

So T-bird: all those "leaders" have been elected by a unanimous vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM

Truce - maybe?
Wonder if the U.N. can spare any moderators!
I do regret us being unable to communicate in a civilised manner
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM

'lip-service'
I only refer to it as such when I believe it to be so - you have plenty to say which I find genuine and interesting - but not everything.
Jim Carroll
.,,.
That is perfectly reasonable, Jim; & appreciated. & nobody's perfect. But your constant assumption of my insincerity in denouncing Israel's undoubted shortcomings, while wishing it could be more as my generation hoped & strived for all those years, as if you could see into my head & judge how far I meant what I was saying, did get exceedingly tedious & tiresome over time.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:42 AM

What is your alternative Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

"!And yet Musket all those decent people in Israel and in Palestine for all their frustration and shame still persist in voting for and supporting the same "Leaders" - strange that isn't it?"
Sounds just like all those people who continued to vote for Margaret Thatcher after she declared mass-murderer Augusto Pinochet to be a hero
of democracy - funny thing democracy!
As you were corporal!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM

"many Israelis I spoke with are ashamed of their government sabre rattling and feel frustrated by the misplaced empathy by zionist influences in the west.

Believe it or not, there are many decent people living there. Ditto Palestine." - Musket

And yet Musket all those decent people in Israel and in Palestine for all their frustration and shame still persist in voting for and supporting the same "Leaders" - strange that isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:16 AM

'lip-service'
I only refer to it as such when I believe it to be so - you have plenty to say which I find genuine and interesting - but not everything.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:58 AM

"...air strikes against civilians..."

Bullshit....as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:08 AM

So... air strikes against civilians are proportionate?

The next time a murder is committed on a council estate in Middlesborough, they'll clear the runway at RAF Leeming then...

Reading some of the tripe by fools on this thread, you see how such things escalate. My overall time in Israel over the years only adds up to a few months, but one thing I can tell you is that despite newspaper and political rhetoric, many Israelis I spoke with are ashamed of their government sabre rattling and feel frustrated by the misplaced empathy by zionist influences in the west.

Believe it or not, there are many decent people living there. Ditto Palestine. Neither side need nor benefit from some of the distorted crap that this thread and others typifies.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:57 AM

And thank you, of course, for the tone of your post before, with which mine cross-posted

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:55 AM

And I see your point entirely in ref'ing the Palestinian Ambassador's letter, with the contents of which I agree insofar as his animadversions on Israeli truculence in the West Bank are concerned; which you know, but which you will probably dismiss as 'lip-service' in your usual contemptuous fashion, having by some means accomplished the enviable ability to read my mind. Which [ie 'lip-service'] is not the case, but do carry on if it gives you any satisfaction to call it so. It does me no harm.

Regards
~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:53 AM

Go along with that Mike - there's plenty of examples of people taking the law into their own hands without extending the definition to those who make the laws.
Thank you for your acknowledgement.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:48 AM

Yes, Jim. I agree with you it was probably an unwarranted and misjudged response. I was merely pointing out the fact that, if it was done by the Israeli Air Force under military orders from the top, it could hardly constitute "taking the law into anyone's own hands", as the idiot I was responding to had defined it. I am sure you will not disagree with that, which was my sole point in the matter.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:47 AM

Letter to the Irish Times this morning
Jim Carroll

'Cycle of violence'
Sir, - The deaths of three Israeli teenagers (murders we condemn) received front-page coverage in your paper (July 1st). Such human suffering and loss of life is always deplorable and deserves front-page cover¬age.
What we fail to understand is why the regular abductions and murders of young Palestinians by the Israeli army are denied the same attention.
Many questions come to mind as we read the article by Mark Weiss. His account gives the impression that these events took place in a sovereign territory and not in an occupied territory under full Israeli army control.
Moreover, and throughout his article, Mr Weiss omits to mention the words "occupied" and "settlers", nor does he make reference to the two weeks of harsh collective punishment imposed on the entire Palestinian population as the Israeli army searched for the three teenagers. In those two weeks, nine Palestinians were killed, two died of heart attack when the army raided their houses, tens were injured, many were orphaned, 640 were arrested, and families saw their homes demolished by the Israeli army.
Surely a prestigious newspaper such as The Irish Times should endeavour to be as impartial and objective as possible. This could be achieved by having journalists actually venture into the occupied West Bank, thus relaying the two sides of the story and its consequences for people on both sides of the Separation Wall (built by Israel within the occupied West Bank and declared illegal by the International Court of Justice exactly 10 years ago).
Security and peace cannot be achieved by force and violence. It is only by ending Israel's occupation of the West Bank and implementing a two-state solution that we will have a fair chance for peace.
We hope that the subsequent abduction and murder, this morning, by Israeli settlers of Mohammad Hussein Abukh-deir, a 16-year-old Palestinian boy from Jerusalem whom they tortured before burning his body, will receive the same attention. - Yours, etc,
AHMAD ABDELRAZEK,
Ambassador of the State of Palestine to Ireland,
Mount Merrion Avenue, Blackrock, Co Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM

"official military air strike as anyone's having"
Unless military technology has developed beyond our knowledge recently, official military air strikes are little more than revenge attacks on a civilian population rather than an attempt to prevent rocket attacks - rather like executing one in ten of the population of a town when one of your generals gets shot.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 12:59 AM

Just to say, re a post a few back (0601 pm), that I can't see how anyone without an aggressive axe to grind could construe an official military air strike as anyone's having "taken the law into their own hands". It was, on the contrary, an example of a measured government response to provocation.

Some people do get confused from time to time, don't they? Or else hope to confuse the rest of us with irrationalities.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:59 PM

Aw Greg you let me down - I was hoping for better than that from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:09 PM

Well, Boo, I see its your same old litany of BS that anything the Israeli government does is AOK because someone else: 1. did it first or 2.did it worser and that anyone that criticises the Israeli government is an anti-Semite.

Boring. Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:32 PM

Israeli jets carried out 15 precision strikes in the Gaza Strip early Thursday morning, in response to rocket fire on Israeli cities throughout Wednesday and into Thursday. At least 10 Palestinians have been injured, according to initial reports.

On Wednesday night and early Thursday morning, three rockets fired from Gaza exploded near residential buildings in the southern city of Sderot, causing damage to the buildings and to several vehicles as well as cutting off power to several streets in the city, officials said.

Two of the rockets hit residential buildings while a third fell against a reinforced shelter inside the city but did not cause damage.

There were no reports of casualties.

Two other rockets fired earlier fell in open fields outside the city, security officials said.

Over 20 rockets were fired from Gaza throughout Wednesday, repeatedly setting off warning sirens across the Gaza periphery.

Read more: Israeli aircraft strike 15 Gaza targets in response to rocket fire | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-aircraft-strike-15-gaza-targets-in-response-to-rocket-fire/#ixzz36MgbVZBu
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:12 PM

BTW Greg this is Israel's response to the atrocious murder of the young Palestinian boy:

Netanyahu's office promised a speedy investigation to find "who is behind this despicable murder and the background to this act," according to a statement from his office.

"Netanyahu calls on all sides not to take the law into their own hands. Israel is a country of law and everyone is ordered to act according to the law."

This is Hamas' response to the murder of the three young Israelis:

Some Hamas officials expressed their disappointment that the three teenagers were found dead, rather than left alive to be used as a bargaining chip for the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

"The body of three settlers discovered," wrote Hamas MP Mushir Al-Masri on his Facebook page. "Better luck next time, God willing."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:05 PM

You tell us Greg since you're the one making the association. Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with the 60 rockets and 11 mortars fired into Israel from Gaza in the past three weeks now, would it Greg. No because to mention that wouldn't make for effective propaganda would it Greg? We know too well Hamas' motivation for anti-Jew propaganda Greg - what is yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 06:01 PM

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu... . called on all sides "not to take the law into their own hands"

Oh really? How many folks that had nothing to do with the kidnapping/deaths ya figure were killed in the Israeli air strikes on Gaza?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 03:13 PM

"Lip service"
?
"Whoever did it, it's an act of barbarism"
No lip service there Mike - unlike you and your little band, I have never taken sides in this war.
If you mean I didn't take to the streets attacking the first Arab I met, as is happening in Israel at the present time - nope, I leave that to those with the lynch-mob-mentality.
Astonishing indeed, by your low standards of humanity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:49 PM

"As Reuters reported, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu quickly condemned the killing and told Israeli police "to swiftly investigate who was behind the loathsome murder and its motive." He also called on all sides "not to take the law into their own hands," but more specifically meant the suspected perpetrators."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:38 PM

I also think the reprisal killing despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM

Hamas paying their respects:

Rockets fired at southern Israel as three teens buried

Missiles hit Eshkol region; 'this has become a national day of mourning,' Netanyahu says; separate services held before burial on day after bodies found; Israel vows to apprehend killers 'dead or alive'

Read more: Rockets fired at southern Israel as three teens buried | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-hunts-for-two-suspects-in-teens-murder/#ixzz36EmA12Pg



Read more: Rockets fired at southern Israel as three teens buried | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-hunts-for-two-suspects-in-teens-murder/#ixzz36ElqeD7c
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM

Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed 'that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare.' He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence).

    Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians 'as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters' and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media.

Civilian Casualty Ratio

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM

Astonishing priorities you have, Jim. Only thing wrong, to hear you tell it, is that it is liable to redound counter-productively on the Palestinians by giving the villainous Israelis something else to oppress them for. At least you stopped short of denouncing it, as some Arabists have apparently done, as the work of Israeli agents provocateurs -- just about! "Act of barbarism", eh?. Coming on, you are, in the lip·service stakes. Keep it up!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM

"still no evidence about this particular abduction"
Whoever did it, it's an act of barbarism and, if the Palestinians are involved, totally counter-productive.
The Israelis will, no doubt, use it to inflict further suffering and indignities on the Palestinians, and to extend its programme of expansionism.
There have been 1,658 children's deaths in the area over the last dozen years - 129 of them Israeli, 1,529 Palestinian - there were 300 Palestinian children killed in 2009 alone - the overwhelming majority of them being of of those simple going about their everyday lives.
The killing of civilian citizens, particularly is inexcusable, though there are those who have chosen to highlight the ones that can be used as emotional capital to push an agenda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:27 AM

It appears that over the years Hamas has been systematically engaging in the abduction doctrine...

Blah, Blah, Blah. More blather, still no evidence about this particular abduction.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 08:01 AM

Fatah calls slain teens 'soldiers'

In its first reaction to the kidnapping ordeal that ended tragically yesterday with news of the three teens' deaths, the Fatah movement described the victims as "soldiers" rather than students, Palestinian Media Watch (PMW) says.

The movement, headed by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, posted on Facebook photos of grieving Israelis coupled with the caption: "Israelis crying over the three killed soldiers, whose bodies, according to Israeli claims, were found this evening in Hebron, 19 days after they disappeared."

Read more: Slain teens to be buried side by side Tuesday afternoon | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-hunts-for-two-suspects-in-teens-murder/#ixzz36DXqXwTw
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM

It appears that over the years Hamas has been systematically engaging in the abduction doctrine. This while improving and honing its operative aspects pursuant to the lessons learned from actual abductions and attempted abductions, expending efforts to introduce this combat doctrine into the consciousness of the activists and motivating them to act when the need arises.

[It should be noted that although references were made in the handbooks to kidnapping operations targeting Israeli soldiers, the 12 June kidnapping of three Israelis involved two 16-year-old high school students and a 19-year-old seminary student. Hamas has made many efforts to falsely portray these teenagers as soldiers, including in the June 23rd Al-Jazeera interview with Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal.]

The Kidnapper's Handbook by Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:27 AM

the circumstantial evidence is quite strong - or can't we even agree on that?

Possibly. However,

"Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing," answered Holmes thoughtfully. "It may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your own point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different....Conan Doyle

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM

Marwan Qawasmeh and Amar Abu Aisha have brought Hamas to a place where its leadership never intended to go. By kidnapping the three Israelis, the Qawasmeh family decided to take the leaders there anyway. In each of the previous events, Hamas' political leaders were forced to align themselves with the movement's military wing. Not one of them dared to say anything. They wouldn't dare condemn a kidnapping ostensibly intended to release Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, or to denounce some terrorist attack, ostensibly launched in retaliation to the assassination by Israel of some Hamas activist or other.

And now for the dispute between Israel and Abbas. We have already noted that Israel holds Hamas responsible for the abduction, while the PA considers the actions of the Qawasmeh family a "gray area," which cannot be used as an indicator for what is happening within Hamas. That is why Abbas is not taking apart yet the unity government he formed just two weeks before the abduction, a government that was supposed to represent a fresh start in the relationship between Fatah and Hamas.

That is also why Meshaal said in an interview with Al Jazeera, "We cannot deny nor can we confirm that Hamas committed the kidnapping." Meshaal also added that he has no idea where the abducted teens are.

At this point, it is quite possible to believe Meshaal when he says that he knew nothing about the kidnapping and that he has no idea what happened to the teens. But Meshaal and the leaders of Hamas have a problem. As long as they don't denounce the Qawasmeh family, and as long as they let the family take them down a dead end time after time, the leaders of the movement will be forced to pay the price.

Abu Shanab, Yassin and Rantisi paid with their lives for what the Qawasmeh family did. Hamas is all tangled up in the same trap, with and Israeli sword hovering over them again. This time, however, when the sword lands, Hamas will not be able to lay all of the blame on the rebellious Qawasmeh clan from Hebron.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/06/qawasmeh-clan-hebron-hamas-leadership-mahmoud-abbas.html##ixzz36D4Pg1A4

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:17 AM

Simple if neither Hamas of Fatah were responsible and it happened in "THEIR" territory all they (Those "governing" the Arabs of Palestine) have to do is find those responsible and bring them to justice or hand them over for the Israelis to try. Or would that not be in their interest? Ask the Taliban, they were given a similar proposition and turned it down - they've bitterly regretted it ever since and so have their Pakistani ISI "Masters". Hamas had best batten down the hatches, retribution is on the way as sure as night follows day, hopefully it will be in the form of targeted strikes over a protracted period, as that will induce them to keep their heads down and prevent them from instigating any more instances of unprovoked attacks against a civil population.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 12:24 AM

For some reason between about 7:30pm mddt & 8:30pm mddt (4:30 to 5:30 here) could not connect to the 'Cat. Had I been so able I would have told Greg F. that while I had read (to that time ) no hard evidence pointing towards Hamas or Hamasites, the circumstantial evidence is quite strong. --or can't we even agree on that? As someone has already presented the Israeli case, I will not repeat any of that.

I was speaking with my pharmacist in Israel (price of my drug about 25% of USA price, and quicker by nearly three weeks to receive than from my former Vancouver, BC supplier -- but I digress). We spoke of the heinous kidnappings which had occurred earlier in the week. He said he was sure they were already dead, then, because a) no person or group was taking credit for the crime, and b) because no demands had been made for a ransom/exchange/release. It seems he was correct, based on what I read today.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 11:57 PM

For Guest @ 5:54---

Normally I would not bother to respond to an anonymous participant (I think that cowardly and unfair, anonymity that is), but since I suspicion you are Guest,Troubadour [hereinafter GT-are you?] I will.

My post was in the vein of GT right down to the all caps "SURPRISE."
GT suggested if we had a that thread was not about Israel, we would not pick on Israel...the point was to show that was not true. Perhaps, though, you missed it.

You also wrote that you did not participate in the referenced thread. I cannot know that since I don't know who you are (anonymity, again). If you are GT, I recall that there were no posts you. But I never claimed there were, so what's your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 10:06 PM

Right, Boo. You have no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 08:28 PM

"could not carry any vote without the support of a minimum 47 non Muslim majority states voting in their favour."

Do some research on the number of abstainers.... before showing yourself up for a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 08:23 PM

"Why don't you tell us how many UN resolutions censoring Israel last year alone?"

Do you think that the 50 Muslim majority countries in the UN might have something to do with that?"

192 members of the UN, each with one vote so, NO! It would appear that 50 Muslim majority states could not carry any vote without the support of a minimum 47 non Muslim majority states voting in their favour.

However, it only takes ONE veto to block each resolution, and a swift scan of the veto list shows that every resolution censuring Israel or relating to the Palestinian situation has been blocked by the USA.

There are NO Muslim majority countries on the Security Council, and there is little likelihood of there ever being any, with or without the power of veto.

So Israel is Teflon coated, thanks to Uncle Sam!

You should do some research before showing yourself up for a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 07:19 PM

I'll try it again - you have no evidence that they are not members of Hamas.

Tippity-tap-tap, tippity-tap!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM

associated with the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

So if two Masons had kidnapped them, then the kidnapping would have been "By The Masons"?

I think not. And it is incumbent upon you as the one making the claim, to present evidence to support it.

I'll try it again: So you have no evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 06:29 PM

Well Greg, Israel's Shin Bet security service has identified the kidnappers and murderers as Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisha, associated with the Palestinian militant group Hamas. If you don't believe that and have evidence to prove otherwise it is incumbent upon you to present it. Put up or shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:54 PM

"And the longer the thread went on, the more that thread became about, surprise SURPRISE—you got it—Israel. So much for your sarcasm."

No posts from me on that ridiculously broad based to the point of total inanity thread, so stuff your sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:42 PM

The boys were killed shortly after being kidnapped. Here's how it went down:

What happened on the night of the kidnapping

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:42 PM

So the answer is "none", Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:18 PM

Palestinian Arabs attacked an Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) ambulance humvee on Monday that was transporting the recently discovered bodies of three murdered Israeli boys who were kidnapped on June 12, an Israeli source told The Algemeiner.

The Muqata blog posted an image of the damaged vehicle on Facebook writing, "8:44pm IDF Ambulance humvee transporting the bodies of the boys attacked by arabs….windows smashed."

In the picture, the ambulance's windshield is shattered and splattered with paint.

An IDF spokesperson would neither confirm nor deny the report.

The IDF on Monday discovered the bodies of the three abducted teens — Eyal Yifrach, Gilad Shaar and Naftali Frankel — following extensive searches.

The bodies were found near Hebron in an area north of the community of Telem. The families of the abducted teens have been notified.

PHOTO

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:11 PM

Some Hamas officials expressed their disappointment that the three teenagers were found dead, rather than left alive to be used as a bargaining chip for the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

"The body of three settlers discovered," wrote Hamas MP Mushir Al-Masri on his Facebook page. "Better luck next time, God willing."

Hamas has jumped the shark. Israel will exact retribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:05 PM

And your proof that Hamas is to blame is....?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 02:03 PM

Hamas has done it again - destroyed another possibility of a peace agreement.

Now watch the blame Israel chorus start when they retaliate - Hamas knows how to play the Jew haters of the world like a fiddle.

Bodies of Abducted Israeli Teens Found: Report

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 05:20 PM

Adding to Keith's post:

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.

Just more uninformed, anti-Israeli bullshit to demonize a people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 04:50 PM

The bombing of Gaza is directed at the war criminals launching illegal, indiscriminate attacks on ordinary Israeli people.

If Gaza could only be persuaded to stop committing those wicked crimes, there would be no reason for Israel to strike back.
That would bring hope.

More and more of the West Bank invaded

It has only been invaded once by Israel, and that to fight off invaders of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 02:18 PM

Small hope for iiiiii/ Palestine

More and more of the West Bank invaded, more and more illegal settlements, bombing of Gaza.

This thread is a waste; there is no hope for the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 02:37 AM

Oh right. UN is stuffed with Muslim countries now...

Poor bloody Israel eh ?

Their record will always be bloody whilst ever idiots keep making excuses for them.

Note the word "United" in UN.

Out of interest, other than me, who else here has travelled on business to both Israel and Palestine? Not that it was officially called Palestine but I digress.

It's just that some of the shit I am reading seems to contradict my own observations and experiences. A bit like the "Muslim" country with a state brewery and pork section in the main market in the capital. Reality rarely meets prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 02:16 AM

Last night Guest, Troubadour snarkily wrote, "Er......because it's a thread with the title "Small hope for Israel/Palestine"?" "Start a thread about other abuses and expect to get answers and comment about those abuses, but in a thread about Israel v Palestine, surprise SURPRISE! We talk about Israel and Palestine." Well, Troubadour, not exactly!

Four years ago and a week shy of a month a new thread was introduced by bobad, 'BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli).' I mentioned that thread on this one some weeks ago. I noted there, then, that it took all of four (as in 4) posts to turn the thread in to being about (alleged) Israeli atrocities. And the longer the thread went on, the more that thread became about, surprise SURPRISE—you got it—Israel. So much for your sarcasm.


Greg F., just to reminisce I perused many of my posts on that thread, and others that struck a chord with me. A person named Roberto made some very cogent arguments. I wish I wrote half so well as he. You posted there as well. What really struck me was that then, as now, you do not understand the meaning of the word 'theocracy', as I told you the other day.
--Greg F. [posting 4 years ago] Query: Why are theocracies like Iran & the Taliban universally condemned while the theocracy that is Israel universally praised? --
QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:09 AM

Do you think that the 50 Muslim majority countries in the UN might have something to do with that?

Anyone got any idea what this sentence is supposed to mean? (Steve Shaw
.,,.

Yes, Steve. It couldn't be clearer. I bet you have every idea too, and are just being obstructive & disingenuous.

Or else you are sillier than has yet appeared, for all your occasional forays into point-missing deflection & obscurantism.

But just in case you really did miss it, the poster meant that all these Muslim countries represented in the UN General Assembly would as a matter of course vote for any motion purporting to censure Israel for anything whatever; so mentioning the number of motions censuring Israel as if that were some sort of incontovertible knockdown argument is a patent exercise in futility by overlooking this obvious shortcoming in the UN-censuring process.

Geddit now? Don't go on, please, pretending that this obvious point was incomprehensible to your oh-diddums-poor-little intellect...

Regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:42 PM

"Israel's security barrier has saved thousands of lives both Israeli and Palestinian. Israel wouldn't need the security barrier, if acts of incitement and terrorism against it stopped."

It is still a barrier with which one faction imprisons another.

Ipso facto A PRISON! And since it is not an enclosed building, or complex of buildings, it is a PRISON CAMP!

This is a term with which you would have NO problem whatever, were it ANY other nation than Israel doing the imprisoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:36 PM

Israel's security barrier has saved thousands of lives both Israeli and Palestinian. Israel wouldn't need the security barrier, if acts of incitement and terrorism against it stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:06 PM

"These scarcely merit a few posts until the topic once again returns to Israel. Why is that Greg?"

Er......because it's a thread with the title "Small hope for Israel/Palestine"?

Start a thread about other abuses and expect to get answers and comment about those abuses, but in a thread about Israel v Palestine, surprise SURPRISE! We talk about Israel and Palestine.

NOW do you understand?

Sheesh! Will they ever stop playing the victim card?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:00 PM

"referring to Gaza as a prison camp etc. This is antisemitism as per the EUMC - now Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA)."

What else would YOU call an enclave which constrains a population within barbed wire fences with armed guard guards controlling entry, exit and supplies of essential food and materials?

If it isn't ipso facto a prison camp, What the fuck IS IT you halfwit?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 07:32 PM

Singling out Israel for opprobrium. Just consider the thousands upon thousands of posts about Israel at Mudcat vs. the meager no. of posts concerning the human rights abuses, genocides, occupations etc. going on all over the world. These scarcely merit a few posts until the topic once again returns to Israel. Why is that Greg? I'll tell you why in one word Greg - that word is antisemitism whether you like it or not.

Let me try to explain the thing you don't understand. First, antisemitism is an attack on Jews because they are Jews. You OK with that? Second, one hundred thousand posts that attack the Israeli regime for their policies or aggressions beyond their own legal borders does not amount in the slightest to antisemitism. But one single post attacking those Israeli actions because they are carried out by Jews is antisemitic. Thousands of posts criticising Israel for its actions do not in any way amount to antisemitism. I criticise the Israeli regime's actions all the time, but always because I vehemently disagree with them, not because they are carried out by Jews. I haven't a clue as to whether the people carrying out those actions are practising Jews,lapsed Jews or whether they're even all ethnic Jews. I don't give a toss. What I do give a toss about is what is right and what is wrong. I really hope this helps. Of course, it won't if you Bibi's uncle. I absolutely hate your country's serial foreign policy outrages and I hate your gun laws and I hate your corporate anti-democracy and I hate the fact that your mass media is so good at lying to you that almost all your population is hoodwinked almost all the time. But I don't hate it because you're yanks. I hate it all for what it is. Spot the subtle difference. Oops, sorry, forgot. You don't do subtle, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 07:10 PM

Do you think that the 50 Muslim majority countries in the UN might have something to do with that?

Anyone got any idea what this sentence is supposed to mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 06:50 PM

It is my job neither to look for damning posts from you, nor to determine that you have never so argued.

Well, John, it is apparently your job to slander by innuendo.

Good to know who - or what - I'm dealing with.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 06:20 PM

Just for the record, John: I have not only read them but cited them several times on various threads.

Interests of accuracy [remember my 'pedantry is legendary', according to one poster] --

above passim in re UN resolutions:

for 'censoring'
read 'censuring'

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 05:11 PM

"John, are you by innuendo attributing "anti-Semitic language and arguments" to me? If so, please identify same."

I do stand by my statement in context. You wrote that, in essence, bobad is quick to play the A-card. I was responding specically to that statement of yours. During the fifteen years I have been at Mudcat, I have read posts which can be said to be anti-Semitic based on agreed international definitions. Some of those folks no longer post here, some still do. I am not the arbiter of what is anti-Semitic; I posted a link to the international definitions for everybody here to read if they care to. For all I know only bobad and I have read them, or maybe everybody has read and understood them.

The bottom line is this: if one uses the consensus identified anti-Semitic language/arguments more than seldom, maybe that one needs to become more self-aware, if they consider themselves to be fair critics. I believe that my statement @12:41 accurately reflects that.

Greg, last night I did all the research for you that I'm going to do. It is my job neither to look for damning posts from you, nor to determine that you have never so argued. Only you know truly know what you mean when you post. That goes for all of us on Mudcat.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:36 PM

"Why don't you tell us how many UN resolutions censoring Israel last year alone?"

Do you think that the 50 Muslim majority countries in the UN might have something to do with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:24 PM

Associate member with certain export restrictions. I'm not arguing the probability, I'm telling you as a retired businessman who manufactured and sold engineering goods that could be used militarily.

That's the problem with you Keith. You'd rather trawl for bollocks that suits your view than accept facts.

This cow is small. That cow is far away....

Why don't you tell us how many UN resolutions censoring Israel last year alone?

I'll give you clue. There were less than 22 but more than 20. The rest of the world between them had less than 5 but more than 3.

How about I let you tell us their shocking human rights record and bloody minded contempt for the international community?

All you have to do is cut and paste 21 and 4 from this post. You are good at cut and paste so it shouldn't take long.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:01 PM

John, are you by innuendo attributing "anti-Semitic language and arguments" to me? If so, please identify same.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 12:41 PM

Greg, in-as-much-as bobad has defended himself from your comments to me, I will refrain. I do not pretend to know who is nor who isn't an anti-Semite because I cannot see into their heart of hearts. But if someone continually debates using anti-Semitic language and arguments, as I pointed out earlier in this thread (and in others as well) what are we to think of that person. At some point the answer becomes obvious.

I will stand by my interpretation of the context of those posts you listed. I think I tend to take a longer view of what is context for individual posts on this thread than you. As to whether or not bobab was being ironic in his posts, I'll let him answer that challenge from you, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 06:22 AM

"....anyone who criticizes Israel in any shape or form is ipso facto an anti-Semite."

Not true Greg.

Anyone who draws comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is an antisemite as per the EUMC - now Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA).

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations such as Israel being a theocracy or an apartheid state or referring to Gaza as a prison camp etc. This is antisemitism as per the EUMC - now Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA).

Singling out Israel for opprobrium. Just consider the thousands upon thousands of posts about Israel at Mudcat vs. the meager no. of posts concerning the human rights abuses, genocides, occupations etc. going on all over the world. These scarcely merit a few posts until the topic once again returns to Israel. Why is that Greg? I'll tell you why in one word Greg - that word is antisemitism whether you like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 05:49 AM

Restrictions on sensitive nuclear material applies to all states, but you said,
" In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

I was not aware because it is bollocks.
Made up.
Far from regarding it as a rogue state, it is an associate member state of the EU.

You were wrong and I was right, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 05:38 AM

EU don't impose, they may wish to compel member states to observe though, where such decisions are devolved to them, and trade outside of EU has many. The restrictions on nuclear and mass destruction materials is a NATO imposed restriction.

Start learning....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:59 AM

As the EU impose neither Musket, you were wrong anyway.
As ever.
You are very ignorant but I will still debate with you.
You may learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 02:51 AM

Restrictions = sanctions?

You really aren't informed enough on political or military matters to engage in debate Keith. I am no expert myself but bloody hell....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 10:07 PM

Your post misses Bobad's sarcasm

No, John, YOU missed - Boo isn't being sarcastic. Its his pet theme that anyone who criticizes Israel in any shape or form is ipso facto an anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 08:31 PM

Greg F.

25 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM - Bobad, I believe, was being ironic based on Troubadour's laundry lists @6:36 and @6:44. That'll context you.
25 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM - Your post misses Bobad's sarcasm. Ergo it seems to be you who misses context.
25 Jun 14 - 08:20 PM - Bobad confirms you missed his intention, confirming my "ergo".
25 Jun 14 - 09:07 PM - Having missed Bobad's meaning, you double down on @8:09 post.
26 Jun 14 - 08:19 AM - This is your post to me.
26 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM - My answer to your tripartite nonsense statement.

I pretty much (if not exactly) nailed the context issue. I can't say the same for you, but I appreciate the opportunity to show you where you went wrong.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 06:39 PM

Context:
25 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM
25 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM
25 Jun 14 - 08:20 PM
25 Jun 14 - 09:07 PM
26 Jun 14 - 08:19 AM

you agree with 66.66% of it?.

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:56 PM

...agree with it!? (corrected punctuation

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:50 PM

I believe I have the context spot on, Greg. If you don't think I have, enlighten me.
BTW, as you did not comment on the rest of that post, you agree with 66.66% of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:33 PM

Anti-semitism is not a shibboleth...

Context, John, Context.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 12:00 PM

Musket, I stated correctly that there were no UN sanctions, and you ridiculed me for it, saying you didn't know we could stray from reality.

And, you said unequivocally that there were EU restrictions in force and that you had had to comply with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 10:46 AM

My posts are missing as usual.

If this one gets there;

If Keith can say where I have ever spoke of UN sanctions I'd be grateful. If he then undertakes to find out the difference between sanctions and the resolutions I mentioned, he might be able to make a contribution to this thread.

Possibly anyway. His attempts to make me look an idiot above have adequately backfired as usual. By having a second pop, he even managed an encore of the hilarious...   I must stop, I'm in danger of pissing myself here...

Teribus needs to find out the significance of putting words in parantheses before allowing his comments to be judged. Perhaps he could let us know if he is labouring a false point or not getting a point?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM

"Nonsense. You're simply conflating "Jew" with "Government of Israel"- after going to some pains to deny Israel is a theocracy & pointing out the Arabs in the Knesset, etc.- in order to raise the old shibboleth of anti-Semitism."

Eleanor/Bill--every part of that sentence is wrong.
1) I do not conflate "Jew" with "Government". Go back to the earlier posts in this tread re: The Ottawa Protocols.
2) You obviously do not know the meaning of "theocracy."
3) Anti-semitism is not a shibboleth; it is still a very real phenomenon ith the world of 2014, and perhaps even at Mudcat.

Tippity-tap-tap.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:02 AM

The post.

Musket - PM
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:48 PM

"There are no UN sanctions"

Oh well, that's alright then.

Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 10:59 AM

Musket you stated, " In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

Then when I said there were no UN sanctions either, you replied, "Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality. "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:19 AM

This is not exactly true.

Its entirely true.

Israel is the proxy word for Jew/Jewish in that post.

Nonsense. You're simply conflating "Jew" with "Government of Israel"- after going to some pains to deny Israel is a theocracy & pointing out the Arabs in the Knesset, etc.- in order to raise the old shibboleth of anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 07:58 AM

Typical "Musketism":

"Israel is at "war" with Gaza?" - Musket

Which he got from:

"There is a weapons embargo against Gaza which is at war with Israel." - Keith A

Now let me see in recent times we have situations where:

The PIRA declared that they were "At War" with the Brits, and they actually attacked indiscriminately the general population, so please no protestations about them being at war with the British Government.

The above never ever automatically meant that the British, the British Government, or the British Army were ever "At War" with the PIRA.

The Taliban declared War on the UN and central Afghan Government's national reconstruction programme.

No reciprocal declaration from ISAF, ANSF or the Afghan Government.


Troubadour:

Those two prison camps who I think you are referring to - Gaza and the West Bank - If anybody made them so it was the Arabs themselves in 1949 when the Egyptians and the Jordanians took "Palestinians" and shut them up in refugee camps on Palestinian land.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:26 AM

Your lack of knowledge is TRULY stunning Musket.

Just a couple of weeks ago you were telling us about non-existent UN and EU sanctions against Israel, and a silly little story about how you had to comply with them.
What are you like?!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 04:02 AM

Israel is not at war with Gaza.
Gaza, under Hamas, is pledged to destroy Israel and kill all Jews.
It is at war with Israel and constantly committing war crimes against Israel by launching illegal, indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians.

Of course Israel hits back at those war criminals.
It would be a crime against their own people not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 03:34 AM

Israel is at "war" with Gaza? Your lack of knowledge of military matters is rather stunning Keith. Was The United Kingdom at "war" with Northern Island? Is North Korea at "war" with the people of North Korea?

Israel cannot be at "war" with land it considers partially it's territory, although the legitimate residents can be at war with Israel, seeing it as foreign aggressors. Israel claims the UN resolutions are invalid as Gaza forms part of their territory, making it an internal affair. In other words, terrorising people you have a duty to protect and serve. Not that those living there wish Israel to serve them, as they serve them with death and mayhem usually.

Israeli fighter jets bombed it only a few hours ago, killing a three year old child. If Poo Bad searches the internet, he might even come across pictures of her dead body. One less terrorist eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:16 AM

1. Surrounded by armed soldiers in both Gaza and their 40% of the West Bank.

Most countries have armed border guards.

2. Debarred from accepting delivery of ANY goods directly, but forced to accept whatever those armed soldiers CHOOSE to allow.

There is a weapons embargo against Gaza which is at war with Israel.
Any country would do the same.

3. Allowed to leave their open prison camps only by the consent of their prison guards.

Not true. They can go anywhere they like except Israel, which they hate anyway.
   
4. Answered with live rifle fire if they throw a stone in the direction of their oppressors.

All Israel's neighbours are worse in that.

5. Fired upon if they approach the perimeter wire fence.

Yes. The fence is well inside Israel's border and there are prominent warnings which everyone is aware of anyway.

6. Kicked out of their homes and their olive groves destroyed, to make room for Israeli settlers.

Not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:55 PM

"Jews" aren't mentioned in either of Troubadour's posts.

This is not exactly true. Israel and Israeli is mentioned, and we know that Israel is known as the Jewish State, both within Israel and to the world in general. It was created specifically as the Jewish Homeland. Israel is the proxy word for Jew/Jewish in that post.
----------------------------------------------------------------

"How many Israelis are treated thus in surrounding Arab states?"

This is an easy one.

The easy answer is none, zero. This is not a matter of Arab/Muslim benevolence...there are no Israelis in the surrounding countries.

The harder answer is that Jews in those countries are treated as second class citizens, if they are considered citizens at all. Some of those countries don't have enough Jews to populate a synagogue, or even a Minyan (Ten Jews need to form a quorum for communal prayer.) Property is confiscated, Jews are hanged as spies after show trials, and if they are allowed leave those countries, it is with hardly more than the clothes on their backs. One could write a book about this, and many have

[for population statistics of Jews in Muslim countries, Arab countries, and the world in general, go to--
   --wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country--      ]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:07 PM

Flew over my head? Hardly, Boo - you were just beating the same old antisemitism drum. The ususl BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:20 PM

I see that the point I was making flew over your head - no surprise there.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM

Funnything, Boo - "Jews" aren't mentioned in either of Troubadour's posts. You're seeing things that aren't there again. Still. Yet

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM

You neglected to mention that the Jews control the press and the world's economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 06:44 PM

"What have the Arabs of Palestine managed to achieve with it -S.F.A."

Palestine doesn't exist, thanks to Israeli intransigence, Palestine is two open prisons and a futile dream, so your question is facile and inane!

Palestinians can't even buy materials to repair Israeli damage to their homes, because "they might build bunkers instead", and we can't have them hiding in air raid shelters where the Israeli air strikes can't kill them, can we?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM

"The proof that honest brokerage of peaceful terms is nullified is the continued use of violence by Israel and the disproportionate reaction by the poor Palestinians.

Rock throwing is not comparable to phosphor bombs or home demolition by bulldozers

As evidenced by the continued housing developments, Israel would like to dominate any Palestinian attempt at autonomy."

Those who can look at this situation with an unbiased eye cannot fail to notice that it is the Palestinians who are:

1. Surrounded by armed soldiers in both Gaza and their 40% of the West Bank.
2. Debarred from accepting delivery of ANY goods directly, but forced to accept whatever those armed soldiers CHOOSE to allow.
3. Allowed to leave their open prison camps only by the consent of their prison guards.
4. Answered with live rifle fire if they throw a stone in the direction of their oppressors.
5. Fired upon if they approach the perimeter wire fence.
6. Kicked out of their homes and their olive groves destroyed, to make room for Israeli settlers.

How many Israelis are treated thus in surrounding Arab states?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 05:06 PM

Robinson was excellent, too. So all right. I chose Ms Powell because many consider her to be the best movie tap dancer of all time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 12:13 PM

More likely Bill Robinson, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM

"Nice tap-dancing, T-Bird..."
Hahahaha. That was written with a straight face by the Eleanor Powell of Mudcat?! [In case the name is not familiar to you, Greg F., I refer you to imdb.com or wikipedia; type in Eleanor Powell.]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:49 AM

You could just explain why is it not statistically valid to sample a period within the period of interest?
I say it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:28 AM

No, FW, I just don't care to become involved in your two-year-old toddler's game of "Why, Mummy??"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:13 AM

You can't reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:09 AM

I give up, FW. None so blind, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:25 AM

Why is it not statistically valid to sample a period within the period of interest?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

Why is that not acceptable?

Quit simply, FW, because it doesn't address or answer the question as asked.

Got it now?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:11 AM

Greg, you have been given a comparison of the aid over a random period within that of your question.
Why is that not acceptable?
What have you provided?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:55 AM

Nice tap-dancing, T-Bird, but that's TWO questions, and you still haven't answered either of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:32 AM

Yet, despite uniting with Hamas, the PA will still apparently be receiving generous financing from the U.S., Canada and Europe.

The UK, with the best of intentions, offers an average of $135 million a year to the PA for development; nonetheless, the Guardian newspaper reported that the money, always fungible, was instead being used by the PA to finance terrorist imprisoned in Israeli jails -- thus inadvertently financing more terrorism.

In addition, it is no secret that the PA officials have been stealing hundreds of millions of dollars of the aid money intended to improve the livelihoods of my people, the Palestinians, with no sign that Western aid to the PA ever filters down to the Palestinian public.

Instead of financing the PA leaders' lavish lifestyles, the world might finally start questioning the PA's institutionalized incitement of terror and hatred to my people which they relay daily through media, education and the religious institutions.

Ever since the PA came into existence, it has been keen to mass-produce and institutionalize the hatred of Jews and also the West. With their government-controlled TV shows that teach children how to kill Jews, and textbooks that preach hatred for Israel, the PA and Hamas are directly and fully responsible for each and every terror act committed by Palestinians, including the kidnapping of the three teenagers.

Mudar Zahran

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 01:40 AM

The question asked by Greg F was as follows:

" how does that{Aid given to the Palestinians} compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period?"

John on the Sunset Coast is perfectly correct in his statement about this question as it is carefully crafted to deflect from the point being made. Here is what I originally posted:

"In terms of aid, the "Palestinians" have been given four times as much as the total aid given under the Marshal Plan which rebuilt a Europe ravished by five years of total all out war - What have the Arabs of Palestine managed to achieve with it -S.F.A.

IF Greg F had been asking a question that compared apples with apples his question would have been:

"So T-Bird: how does that compare with the aid given to Israel, and what they have achieved with it during the same period?"

Should he ask that question he will get an answer.

"Palestinian" Refugees on "Palestinian" land - WHY?

Yasser Arafat, the man who invented the "Palestinians", the man who attempted to pass himself off as a "Palestinian" refugee, the "leader" of the "Palestinian People" - died a multi-millionaire - where did his money come from? And why have the "Palestinians" still not been able to find it? (Arafat embezzled billions from the self same "Palestinians" he was supposed to be "leading")

Mahmoud Abbas the new "Leader" of the "Palestinian People" also a multi-millionaire (estimated worth US$100 million), money he is suspected of acquiring by systematic embezzlement of public funds.

Now then Greg F it seems that being "Leader" of the "Palestinian People" is a licence to "Print Money" and make a fortune - What do the "Palestinian People" get out of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 05:13 PM

One last time, fuckwit: "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel" IS NOT MY QUESTION! Go back and read the fucking thing posted twice, second time solely for your benefit.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:54 PM

It does answer the your question "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel" Greg.
You have the amounts given to each in a typical year.
Thank you would be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 12:38 PM

Greg's question is answered.

Perhaps in your idiosyncratic world, FW, but not in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM

Palestinian spokesman Ahmad Assaf rips the veil off of Hamas' thuggery:

"In the past seven years Hamas has destroyed Gaza."

"Who are you trying to fool? Do you think people are that stupid! Do you think they are blind?!"

He obviously doesn't read Mudcat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tssXnzdHwRc

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 04:00 AM

As a watchword, I make no apology for quoting yet again the incomparable Jane Austen, one of whose wonderfully principled & strong-minded characters, Elinor Dashwood in Sense & Sensibility made no reply to a fool who was on at her, "as she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition."

That's what those two and their like don't deserve indeed. Couldn't have put it any better myself!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM

"I'm in wonderment that anyone is taking Greg F. or Muscat seriously in this latest discussion." John Sunset

.,,.

As I think you know, John, I have solved the problem, & vastly increased my contentment & existential satisfaction, by simply not reading any posts from either of those two nasty-minded fools. It's easy; just need to be a bit strong-minded -- much easier than giving up smoking was, 40 years ago. So I really don't know what they are on about, regarding me or anything else. Poor old Musky-buttox might still be going on with his interminable oh-so-hilarious cracks about my nurse & my cooking sherry or whevs; or he might just have got the message that, whoever is reading such facetious pathetic fatuities, it isn't me, and given up on them.

But the really delightful thing, from my POV, is that I just don't know; and care even less. A blissful state of incognisance and insouciance, believe me. If there is anyone on this forum who really gets on your tits, my advice is simply to boycott their posts ···

··· & game over!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM

Greg's question is answered.
However much you squirm and obfuscate, the answer is clear.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:39 AM

John. Why should I take a weird foreigner seriously for that matter?

Keith. Per capita is how you state it, correct. Per capita when applied must have a weighting to make it relevant to the index. Try Orwell's assertion that some pigs are more equal than others for starters. Then look at how Israel' version of ONS do it for just about every situation.

Not that reality ever stopped your staunch assertion that if you read it somewhere everyone else is wrong....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:52 AM

Musket, the weighting is simple.
The amount per person.
That is what per capita means.
Greg, it was a typical year so representative of ANY period.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:08 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Same old same old.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 08:08 PM

So I guess you can't read either, eh John? Or are you just taking the mickey?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM

I'm in wonderment that anyone is taking Greg F. or Muscat seriously in this latest discussion.

Keith provided a source for comparing aid to Palestine and Israel. If Greg F. does not agree with that source, or finds it does cover the area he is writing about, then it is incumbent on him to find a source that does, and present it. It is not up to Keith to look for other sources for Greg F. which he [GF] will likely still not approve of.

I don't know Keith, his educational background, nor what he does/did for a living. Muscat evidently thinks he is/was a statistical analyst. It seems to me that this is just a way of trying to refute that document by overburdening the presenter. Sort of like paying a largish debt with quarters (US 25 cent coin) so that the lender must waste time counting thousands of coins.

Get real guys!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:15 PM

The same old reading comprehension problem raises its head again, FW.

The question was not "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel".

The question To T-Bird was: "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period? [emphasis added as an aid to morons and their fellow travellers]

Also, why don't you let T-Bird answer for himself instead of smearing your usual shite all over this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:07 PM

As you have confidence in the per capita figure Keith, perhaps you could explain what the weighting is and how this affects your confidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:30 PM

There was nothing special or different about that year.
Unless you know better Greg?
Tell us.

Per capita is a standard way of making comparisons.
No evidence needed because everyone except you knows that Greg.

It does answer the your question "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel" Greg.
You have both amounts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM

That was a typical year so a good indicator of the total.

Your evidence that it was a "typical year" is... what? Your opinion?

Per capita is a fair means of making a comparison.

That may be your opinion, but that's all it is. T-Bird was not talking "per capita" or a single year.

AND that still doesn't answer the question.

The total figures are there if you prefer.

Yes they are, BUT that still doesn't answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:04 PM

That was a typical year so a good indicator of the total.
Per capita is a fair means of making a comparison.
The total figures are there if you prefer.

Are you going to produce anything at all Greg?
Of course not.
Just abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:57 PM

Sigh. For the reading and comprehension challenged FWs:

** That's only statistics for a single year, not the total that T-bird is talking about.

** T-Bird wasn't talking aid "per capita" and neither am I.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:47 PM

Greg, does my answer not suffice?
"So, the Palestinian Territories (population 4.043 million), receive more economic aid per capita from the world than military aid received by Israel, population 7.7 million, from the U.S."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:46 PM

Actually I do have one that satisfies me.

That's unfortunate, since that post does not answer the question.

...implant an equivalence...

Funny you don't get on your high horse when FW Keith & BooBad do this; its their stock & trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:20 PM

Actually I do have one that satisfies me. You can read it, too, at 10:44AM today.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 01:22 PM

"to try to implant an equivalence"

BINGO JotSC.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 12:42 PM

I'm entirely serious, John. Do you have the answer for us?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 11:39 AM

"So T-Bird: how does that compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period?"

This is an example of a question that is both demeaning and unserious.
It is put out there to try to implant an equivalence between Palestinian and Israeli aid hoping that no one will actually care to consider it.

I hope Greg F. is not a lawyer. The first rule is never to ask a question one doesn't know the answer to--or in this case probably knows the answer to and hopes to skate on.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 10:44 AM

So, the Palestinian Territories received 88.8% of the total (UK) regional aid. While (Northern) Sudan received absolutely nothing. (Southern Sudan is listed separately in the Africa region)

Other nations more impoverished in the region than the West Bank and Gaza, according to the CIA fact book, which received no aid include Yemen and Chad.

More broadly, looking at the West Bank alone, The Palestinian Authority's Human Development Index – a measure of life expectancy, literacy, education and standards - is 97th out of 193 countries in the world, which places them ahead of Egypt, Syria and Morocco.

And, of course, this doesn't include additional international aid which the Palestinians receive annually.

Here are the top ten donors, listed in U.S. dollars:

U.S.: $667 million

EU: $600 million

UNRWA: $476 million

Arab countries combined: $110 million

Norway: $108 million

Spain: $101 million

Germany $89 million

UK: $82 million

France: $77 million

Sweden $69 million

Total: Over $2.3 billion

In comparison, in 2009, Israel received less than $2.38 billion (all in military aid), all of which was from the U.S.

So, the Palestinian Territories (population 4.043 million), receive more economic aid per capita from the world than military aid received by Israel, population 7.7 million, from the U.S.

Finally, it's important to note that Israel is pro-West, and a strong U.S. ally, while the Palestinians are, based on annual public opinion polls, (even under the Obama Administration) overwhelmingly anti-American.

These facts would seem, at the very least, worth noting in the context of the continuing drum beat of accusations by anti-Zionists regarding U.S. aid to Israel.

Source CIA Factbook.
http://cifwatch.com/2011/10/05/guardian-graph-on-uk-foreign-aid-shows-palestinians-receive-bulk-of-funding-sudan-received-nothin

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:48 AM

So T-Bird: how does that compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:07 AM

In terms of aid the "Palestinians" have been given four times as much as the total aid given under the Marshal Plan which rebuilt a Europe ravished by five years of total all out war - What have the Arabs of Palestine managed to achieve with it -S.F.A.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 01:44 PM

My comment needed no proof as it was not stated as a fact, but as an opinion.

Yup. An ostensibly UNSUBSTANTIATED & apparently UNINFORMED opinion, i.e. bullshit.

accidentally hit submit

Yeah, right.

you may expect that answer from me every time I deem your comment or your response to mine as un-serious as was your asking for proof.

Knock yourself out. But I was deadly serious about asking for proof:
of which you offer none. See 22 Jun 14 - 12:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 01:08 PM

Dear GregF., you may expect that answer from me every time I deem your comment or your response to mine as un-serious as was your asking for proof. My comment needed no proof as it was not stated as a fact, but as an opinion. Also as one who chastised me to look for context, you took mine out of context by not quoting the entire sentence. Often when you are presented with facts, you don't counter them with other facts; you dismiss them as being from a source you don't like (and, no, I am not going to research your posts to find specific instances), or you demean person providing the facts. If you disagree with my opinion of Jews Moslem governments, I invite you to show me how that opinion is wrong...it might be, but I doubt it.
You and others who post like you may expect that response in the future.

Finally, I did not mean to post that order to you. I was still groggy from a nap when I read your post. I actually wrote F.O. with the intention of erasing it, just wanting to get it out of my system. I accidentally hit submit, and could not get it back. Perhaps subliminally it was not so accidental, and I have decided to stand by that post.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 12:22 PM

Query: And you have evidence to prove this, I suppose?

Ans: Greg, F.O.

Translation: No evidence, its bullshit.

Another Q.E.D., it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 08:47 AM

As I understand it, many peace proposals that were made to Israel by Palestinian leaders were summarily rejected. As to the old bromide about "destroying Israel", this is just mythology.
What was attempting to be destroyed was the monolithic occupation and the unacceptable conditions given by Israel to pacify Palestinians.

Again, the conflict between Islam and Judaism plays a major role here.

The proof that honest brokerage of peaceful terms is nullified is the continued use of violence by Israel and the disproportionate reaction by the poor Palestinians.

Rock throwing is not comparable to phosphor bombs or home demolition by bulldozers

As evidenced by the continued housing developments, Israel would like to dominate any Palestinian attempt at autonomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:32 PM

Greg, F.O.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:17 PM

What should I hold them accountable for, Greg?

Q.E.D., Boo -

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:15 PM

the twelve Knesset members are far more, both actually or proportionately, than Jews in the whole of the Moslem worlds governing bodies.

And you have evidence to prove this, I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 05:27 PM

What should I hold them accountable for, Greg? For the fact that the Palestinians have refused every offer of a state by the Israelis and have never ever given a counter-offer? Let's go over them shall we.

They refused a state in 1947. They tried to destroy Israel in 1967 (before the so-called occupation), and then right after the war issued the three nos; no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it. They went to war again in 1973. Then, they turned down a state in 2000 at Camp David. Even the Saudi foreign minister was shocked that Arafat turned down the offer. Then, they turned down an offer in 2001, and in 2008 they didn`t even answer Olmert`s offer for a state.

So is that what I should hold them accountable for Greg? For the intransigence of the Palestinian so-called leadership? Who keep their citizens in refugee camps for decades and use them as pawns to play on Jew hatred to get billions in aid with which to enrich themselves and their cronies and to buy weapons and rockets with which to attack Israeli citizens. No Greg, I hold the so-called Palestinian "leadership" accountable for the plight of the Palestinian people, YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 05:15 PM

GregF-
"...but he was only being ironic and sarcastic. I guess I'll have to read between the lines... "quoting moi
"It might help, John, if you also looked up "context".

You know my friend, posting on the internet is not like having a conversation. Context is difficult, especially when writing for others a one sentence post. One cannot 'hear' your tone of voice; one cannot see the twinkle in your baby blues that you're having your way with them; nor can one see your hooded eyes showing anger or contempt. And one cannot see your sneer or subtle smile as you write. The use of emoticons usually mean the opposite of what they seem to imply, in my expeerience.

However, you have admitted to the use of irony and sarcasm, and that now becomes my default reading of your posts. It is up to you to convince me otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 04:36 PM

"Does 10% of Arabs sound proportionate?"
"...12 Arabs in the Knesset is a laughably insignificant basis for your argument."
both GuestTroubador

As I do not worship at the Mammon of Proportionality, which you seem to do, your comments, above, carry no weight with me. Almost certainly the twelve Knesset members are far more, both actually or proportionately, than Jews in the whole of the Moslem worlds governing bodies.

Proportionality as a mantra is about sixty years old...at least here in the US. It has done far more damage than good, here, both civilly and politically. Probably elsewhere as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 01:08 PM

But if the Palestinians are treated as children, never held accountable...

Amusing, Boo, since you never hold the Israeli government accountable....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 11:40 AM

Bobad's link is to today's Daily Telegraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 11:21 AM

The jubilant reaction of many Palestinians to the kidnapping of three Israeli teenage boys has been met in the West with a bit of a shrug. The official daily PA newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida has published cartoons mocking the three students and celebrating their capture. The Fatah Facebook page featured a cartoon of three rats dangling from a line. Sweets have been handed out on the streets (a traditional gesture of joy and celebration). Many children have been photographed by their parents, holding up three fingers and smiling. An internet campaign gathers pace and "popular support for the abduction has continued to proliferate on Palestinian social media" according to the journalist Elhanan Miller. Hamas, of course, is exultant. Yes, Abu Mazen has condemned the kidnap and there have been some brave Palestinian voices raised in defence of the three youngsters, but their voices are isolated; Palestinians calling for the return of the three students have been threatened.

Of course, Israel has to compromise and divide the land, making possible a Palestinian state. But if the Palestinians are treated as children, never held accountable for cultivating a culture of hate, then they will never make their own excruciating compromises for peace. And without those compromises – in a Middle East departing further from the norms of human behaviour by the day – Israel will not take risks for peace. Nor should it.

It's time to stop infantilising the Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

The Israeli legal system is based in common law.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 10:32 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:52 AM

".... on his side of the Atlantic, the first question a doctor asks is "Who's paying, and how"?"

Not in my country, mate!

So why are you quoting US and Texas law in defence of your argument, when you know that what I said DOES apply in the US, where they do enough to keep you alive before asking how you'll pay, then pursue you for the cost of keeping you alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 10:27 AM

Israel has ghettoised its Palestinian citizens

How so Troubadour?
They have full citizenship rights and can go where they please.

Perhaps you are thinking of West Bank where the Palestinians oppose immigration from any other race, especially Jews.

Or maybe Gaza where IDF forced Jewish settlers out at gunpoint and now the Arab people have it all and would kill any Jew found there.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 10:23 AM

"Not in my country, mate!"
In Israel though - it's called "medical tourism"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:52 AM

".... on his side of the Atlantic, the first question a doctor asks is "Who's paying, and how"?"

Not in my country, mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:47 AM

"But I don't expect that fits in with the bigotry and partisan balls you keep spewing out on this thread. Rather ugly really."

Musket, you have to make allowances for the fact that on his side of the Atlantic, the first question a doctor asks is "Who's paying, and how"?

Different world mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:39 AM

"Mr. F, you are entitled to all the biased opinions you care to spew. You may not, however, aver as the truth a lie. As of 2011, the Israeli
Knesset had 12 Arab members, of varying religions and backgrounds, out of a total membership of 120--10%!"

John on the Sunshine Coast (lightyears away from the plight of 4 million Palestinians crammed into two open prisons within the boundaries of Israel.

Within those boundaries there are also 6 million Israelis.

Does 10% of Arabs sound proportionate?

Because to me, and many others, the way in which Israel has ghettoised its Palestinian citizens indicates no intention to resolve the situation on either a one, or a two state solution, but rather the desire to dominate and eventually drive out the whole lot by making their lives a living hell.

Alongside of that, 12 Arabs in the Knesset is a laughably insignificant basis for your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:35 AM

"I don't propose to read any more Greg F posts at all in the future"
"And if you make any more statements I disagree with, I'll close my eyes and hold my breath and scweam and scweam and scweam....."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:25 AM

...but he was only being ironic and sarcastic. I guess I'll have to read between the lines...

It might help, John, if you also looked up "context".



...I don't propose to read any more Greg F posts at all in the future. - ~M~

I'm heartbroken. Can I hold you to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:22 AM

"Breaking the Silence represents only an insignificant minority of IDF veterans (less than 1,000). It is not an objective human rights organisation. It is a political organisation devoted to tarnishing the defence Forces and, by extension, the Israeli state.
"Breaking the Silence are 'useful idiots' allowing themselves to be manipulated by the international boycott"

Less than a thousand? The ones that have the guts or the humanity to speak out!

The last sentence? Mandy Rice-Davies!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:06 AM

Musket.

Correct.

Yes I was, as usual.

As usual, said to contradict what I said. Which it doesn't.

Yes it does, because you were wrong and I was "correct."
As usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:09 AM

So Musket, from what I can tell you are using the term "enemy" in the context of a declared war, that is a unique situation which is is not relevant to this discussion. As far as I know Israel is not at war with the Palestinian National Authority.

You also stated that doctors are obliged to treat in an emergency, this is not true.

The Israeli doctors were under no obligation to provide treatment to Abbas' wife - it was an act of benevolence. You are unable to accept that Israelis are capable of benevolence because you have demonized them in your mind - that is sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 07:19 AM

Correct.

As usual, said to contradict what I said. Which it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 05:18 AM

Medics and padres DO use the term enemy.
The Geneva convention states that wounded enemy prisoners must be treated with friendly casualties according to clinical need only.

As for the obligation to treat, try turning up at Harley Street or most hospitals in the world, without cash, card or insurance.
First aid if you are lucky.
Treatment no.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 01:35 AM

The operative word being "appear." Although reading some of the shite on this thread it wouldn't take much to remove the word...

Poo Bad. You keep quoting something that doesn't contradict anything I put. Odd really. Although bear in mind that there are, to date, over forty USA doctors who cannot practice in most other countries due to their involvement in executions. State laws contradict federal obligations and the stalemate is ongoing. A British doctor who was struck off for falsifying research into MMR jabs has exploited that loophole and is carrying out research in Texas.

For the purpose of this thread, the question was raised over treating a man whilst holding his organisation to account for kidnap. I said that doctors have an obligation. That's how it is. The government can kick him out, the hospital can end treatment at a non critical stage but the doctors' hands are tied whilst ever he is their patient.

Medics and padres. People in uniform who don't use the word enemy.

But I don't expect that fits in with the bigotry and partisan balls you keep spewing out on this thread. Rather ugly really.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 11:43 PM

You do what you like, John. But I don't propose to read any more Greg F posts at all in the future. Life just too short.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:55 PM

GregF -- "Oh you guys, what a buncha kidders. Look up "sarcasm" & "irony" some time you have a minute."

And to think that for the last bunch of years when I was arguing, discussing, sometimes agreeing with, but mostly not with GregF I thought he said what he meant and he meant what he said, but he was only being ironic and sarcastic. I guess I'll have to read between the lines, when I read a GregF post in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 06:54 PM

' i appear to know more than anyone else here' - jeez louise, comrade that is a mighty boast.
now lets see what we can prescribe to bring a dose of reality

dick gaughan - what you got
john martyn - may you never
gillian welsh - i dream a highway
nick lowe - what's so funny about peace love and understanding
joe strummer - bhindi bhagee

right. listen to that lot and then get cross about any other group

and grow up

peace and love

lucky pierre

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 06:24 PM

Oh you guys, what a buncha kidders. Look up "sarcasm" & "irony" some time you have a minute.

By the way - are you maintaining that there are no Jewish Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 02:10 PM

I think he'd do better to go away and wank in private, instead of doing it here publicly ad nauseam

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 02:04 PM

I agree with you on GregF, JotSC, I think he's better off sticking to what he does best, ad hominem attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 01:58 PM

The assertion you are making is not supported by common law:

Under common law a physician has traditionally not been required to undertake the care of someone who is not already a patient. This reflects the position that no person is required to provide assistance to another except in exceptional circumstances.10,11,12 As summarized in St. John v. Pope (Texas Supreme Court, 1995), "Professionals do not owe a duty to exercise their particular talents, knowledge, and skill on behalf of every person they encounter in the course of the day … It is only with a physician's consent, whether express or implied, that the doctor–patient relationship comes into being."13 On the basis of the principle of contract law, that both parties must assent to the creation of a relationship, the right of refusal has been extended to emergency situations even when no other physician is available.14,15

10. Linden AM. Canadian tort law. 6th ed. Toronto: Butterworths; 1997. p. 284-99.
11. Fleming JG. The law of torts. 9th ed. Sydney (Australia): LBC Information Services; 1998. p. 162-72.
12. Klar LN. Tort law. 2nd ed. Scarborough (ON): Carswell; 1996. p. 147-69.
13. St. John v. Pope, 901 SW 2d 420 at 423 (Texas SC 1995).
14. Hurley v. Eddingfield, 59 NE 1058 (1901).
15. Fought v. Solce, 821 SW 2d 218 (Tex Ct Civ App 1991).

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 01:38 PM

Man, GregF, you're becoming the equivalent of someone who used to post to Israel/Palestine topics...purposely obtuse and disengenuous.

Your first question merits no answer.

As to the second question, Bobad linked to a site, earlier today, which will answer your query. Since it appears you didn't read it, here it is again--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset (copy/paste to your internet provider of choice).

Go and learn! You might even like what you read. Or was that question just rhetorical to make us think Arabs in the Knesset are "Dohd Ali" or an Uncle Ali (cf to USA Uncle Tom).

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 01:00 PM

the Israeli Knesset had 12 Arab members

Well John & ~M~

1. Any of 'em Jewish?

2. How do they vote? - pro or con the Govt. policies RE:Occupied Territories, illegal settlements, human rights abuses, treatment of Palestinians & etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 12:58 PM

I've never had a job in The NHS in my life. Never been a bean counter for that matter. Spent enough money employing the buggers though.

The GMC nor The Royal Colleges nor their equivalents in The WHO concordat make shit up though. When I regulated them, I had to understand them. When I married one, I took an interest in their obligations. Doctors cannot refuse to treat on the basis of enemy. They can refuse elective treatment on the basis of funding or clinical risk, but if a patient presents, a doctor cannot make the decision to not treat and every country signed up to the professional registration concordat has to honour that. You don't know fuck all, which is par for the thread.

I appear to know more than anyone else here, that's for sure, and considering I teach medical students, it's a good job the bloke behind Musket is competent. I'd fucking starve if I were as ignorant and self opinionated as you. You even give our resident corporal sign writer a run for his money.,

Your ball.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 12:30 PM

You were wrong Musket. Just because you had a job as a bean counter at the NHS it doesn't make you an expert on all matters medical but your inflated ego and arrogance won't let you admit it. You made that shit up.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 12:08 PM

"Its just a coincidence that the government is comprised entirely of members of the Jewish faith."--GregF

Mr. F, you are entitled to all the biased opinions you care to spew. You may not, however, aver as the truth a lie. As of 2011, the Israeli
Knesset had 12 Arab members, of varying religions and backgrounds, out of a total membership of 120--10%!

Just for comparison, the current U.S. Congress (combined Senate and House) comprise 36 of 535 members who are Jewish--less than 7%! Of those 36, 35 are Democrats (one actually being an independent who caucuses with the Dems). One of these Jews definitely will not be returning for the next Congress; frankly, I don't care whether congress has no Jews or all Jews, although I would hope there would be fewer Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

ISRAELI DEMOCRACY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

Are you still coming out with that fantasy over doctors refusing to treat people on the basis of enemy?

Sounds like your knowledge of healthcare is about as good as your knowledge of The Middle East.

People like you but unfortunate enough to have influence are responsible for thousands of deaths and continuing long term suffering. If I were you I'd be grateful for your ignorance, it is the only thing stopping you from shameful sleepless nights.

That said, I enjoy the fascination of seeing the level when politicians harp on about getting people's opinions. They forget about the level of intelligence seen on these threads for starters.

Fuck me gently...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 10:10 AM

List of Arab members of the Knesset

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 10:08 AM

FYI --

"Balad (Hebrew: בָּלַ"ד, an acronym for Brit Le'umit Demokratit (Hebrew: בְּרִית לְאוּמִּית דֶּמוֹקְרָטִית, lit. National Democratic Assembly); Arabic: التجمع الوطني الديمقراطي‎, at-Tajamuʿ al-Waṭanī ad-Dīmūqraṭī or بلد, lit. Country or Nation) is an Israeli Arab political party in Israel led by Jamal Zahalka.[4] It is sometimes called the "National Democratic Alliance".[5]"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 10:03 AM

No, it isn't, actually. There are Arab members of the Knesset, like Jamal Zahalka*, some of whom have even been ministers -- tho probably none at present. But they are mainly members of the Jewish race, not the Jewish faith -- ie non-orthodox, non-practising, and probably several who are agnostic or atheist by persuasion. As usual, GregF, you are opening your exceptionally fat and loud mouth with extreme dogmatism on a topic on which you are just plain misinformed.

~M~

*Dr Jamal Zahalka (Arabic: جمال زحالقة‎, Hebrew: ג'מאל זחאלקה; born 11 January 1955) is an Israeli Arab who serves as a member of the Knesset representing the Balad party. He is a Balad party leader. Wikipedia -- read the full entry

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 09:46 AM

[Israel]has never been a religiously Jewish state [ie a 'theocracy'].

You bet, ~M~. Its just a coincidence that the government is comprised entirely of members of the Jewish faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:43 AM

Nice attempt to deflect away from the thing you have for the "democratically" elected terrorist group Hamas, Musket. We're not fooled though. Oh, and the absence of rebuttal to my post disproving your false contention re the obligation of MDs to treat has not gone unnoticed. We're watching.......and laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:42 AM

More "Antisemitism" from Israel
Jim Carroll

ISRAELI SOLDIERS SPEAK OUT ON ABUSE OF PALESTINIANS
Kitty Holland
Irist times 19,06,14
Yehuda Shaul, a former Israeli soldier who served in the West Bank and Gaza, tells how he and fellow soldiers secured a television screen one night while out on patrol, to watch a World Cup match.
It was 2002 and Brazil was playing. "The way we passed those night patrols was to bang on random houses, no reason and we'd go in, wake everyone up, men in one room, women in another,mess everything up, onto the next house.
"That night we wanted to watch the match so we were looking for a house that had a satellite dish. We found one, «vent in and locked the family in the basement while we watched the match. Why wouldn't we? That's what we do in the occupied territories.
The most important message you get from your superiors in the Israeli military is that every Palestinian needs to feel Israel is at the back of their neck. So, quickly, you adapt to le environment; you don't see the Palestinian in front of you as human. They are reduced to being an object."
A photograph accompanies the story, of a young Israeli soldier grinning to the camera, in Palestinian family's living room, the aforementioned football match on their television in be background.
It is one of hundreds of chilling photographs taken by former members of the Israeli Defence Forces, of themselves and their colleagues engaging in what Shaul says becomes "normal" behaviour after being sent to the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza. A fraction - about 85 - will be exhibited by the Breaking the Silence project in Dublin from today.
Other photographs include one of a Palestinian man, blindfolded, his hands tied, his head bowed. A young Israeli soldier crouched down beside him beams to the camera in an image reminiscent of some that emanated from Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, in 2003.
Another shows a teenage boy, again hands tied, blindfold¬ed and left sitting, while Israeli soldiers chat in the back-ground. One of the most dis¬turbing is one of children, who appear aged between about sev¬en and 10, "playing soldiers".
Some are clearly 'playing' Palestinians, their hands against a wall, their legs splayed while another displays the occupying soldier, pointing a stick at them as a 'gun'. An Israeli soldier looks on. "This [kind of] experience is normal to these young kids," says Shaul "It's their reality from a young age."

'PEOPLE HADN'T A CLUE'
Breaking the Silence was initiated by Shaul 10 years ago, after he completed his tour of duty with the IDF in Hebron. All Israeli males must spend three years in the military and females two years, with some exceptions, after high school.
"When I came back, I began to question what I had done, what I had done to Palestinian people. Once I understood the reality of what I had done I found I couldn't continue unless I did something. I started to talk to military colleagues and found they felt the same. The one thing we kept bumping into was that people hadn't a clue."
Israelis, he says, didn't know - or didn't want to know - the abuses he says are perpetrated every day in the occupied territories. "Soldiers come home, maybe for a weekend. It's a different reality. They don't talk about the reality of the military. What happens in the West Bank stays in the West Bank."
He and colleagues began gathering photographs and testimonies and were soon exhibiting all over Israel, including in the parliament, the Knesset.
Their work created "noise", he says and for a time they were one of the biggest stories in the country. It has opened a discussion and some awareness but he says most Israelis choose to say of the occupation: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
"What we have documented are not isolated incidents. This is a story of what happens when a nice kid from Jerusalem or Tel Aviv gets sent to the Territories. They adapt."

EMBASSY COMMENT
Asked to comment, a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in Dublin said: "Breaking the Silence represents only an insignificant minority of IDF veterans (less than 1,000). It is not an objective human rights organisation. It is a political organisation devoted to tarnishing the defence Forces and, by extension, the Israeli state.
"Breaking the Silence are 'useful idiots' allowing themselves to be manipulated by the international boycott, divestment,sanctions campaign against Israel. It seeks to delegitimise and ultimately destroy the state of Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish people."
Breaking the Silence has exhibited in the US, Berlin, Madrid, Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Brussels and continues to gather photographs and testimony from returning soldiers. It runs at the Gallery of Photography in Dublin's Temple Bar from today until June 29th and is free.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 05:10 AM

A couple of views of "shelled to pieces" Gaza hospitals.
http://teeksaphoto.org/Levant2010/Hospital_youth_group_staff_meeting_1_4_11/content/Gaza_hospital_5752_large.html
http://www.icrc.org/eng/assets/images/other/img_3686_z.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:05 AM

Slowly but surely, a wee bit of balance and reality is creeping into this thread. Poo Bad is showing his arse and his mates have gone quiet.

Here, Poo Bad... Got any more Hitler comparisons we can laugh at? Good God(win) I need a chuckle after the match last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 12:51 AM

Troubadour: As to "admitting that Israel is NOT a Jewish state", as you triumphantly claim Bobad to have done:-

It has never been a religiously Jewish state [ie a 'theocracy']. It was founded as an ETHNICALLY Jewish state, from earliest late-C19 concept of the early pioneers who founded the early kibbutzim, & from Herzl's writings, onward. This thread, as so many, is bedeviled by this constant failure to distinguish between Judaism as a FAITH, and Judaism as a RACIAL or ETHNIC group. Naturally there will be much overlap; but it is nevertheless a distinction to be constantly kept in mind in discussing any matters pertaining to Israel, or to the Jews in general. These days, probably the majority of those who regard themselves as Jewish keep up few, if any, of the obligations of their traditional faith, but have more or less strong feelings of ethnic solidarity nonetheless.


~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 09:59 PM

The old "stalker" gambit. At least you're consistent with your BS, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 08:58 PM

I'm happy to see my stalker's back - you missed a few posts - I was worried something might have happened to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 08:23 PM

Oh, I think the evidence has convinced many more than himself, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:24 PM

Keep reaching GUEST,Troubadour. you may even convince yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:47 PM

"But you appear to me to have avoided the question as to why "Israel is where most Palestinians who can afford it go for healthcare","

Perhaps the fact that most hospitals in Gaza and the Palestinian 41% of the West Bank have either been shelled to pieces, or are packed to capacity by the cramming of over 4 million people into ever decreasing space.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:40 PM

"And you coming in with your inflammatory lie about Israel being a theocracy is constructive and helpful to the debate?"

Ah! Now we are getting somewhere!

So, Bobad, you now admit that decrying the actions of a militaristic and xenophobic Israeli government is not an antisemitic attack upon the Jews who live under the rule of said government?

At last we have a denial that all who disagree with Netanyahu's policies are antisemitic, so we can put that straw man to bed once and for all, straight from the horses mouth.

BOBAD admits that Israel is NOT a Jewish State.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:31 PM

"It's called The Hippocratic Oath and forms the basis of the moral obligations of registration. Benevolence has nothing to do with it. It is a professional obligation."

Spot on Musket, and it's the reason why US Mobile Army Surgical Hospitals treated patients, friend or foe, based on clinical need.

It's what good Western doctors do, regardless of how the other side may act.

So if we are expected to issue pats on the back for Israeli doctors, fine and fair.

This has no relationship to our feelings about the government responsible for those Arab patients needing the services of those doctors.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:22 PM

"Nobody was wounded by the rocket, which exploded on a road in the south of the country, Israeli police said."

No chance at all that the eventual response (whether publicised or not) will be as bloodless.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 05:44 PM

Indeed. Of course, he had enormous help from Ernst Röhm, leader and organiser of the Brownshirts, aka SA or Sturmabteilung (Stormtroopers). He expressed his gratitude in typical fashion by having Röhm executed a year later, ostensibly on Himmler's orders, partly as a potential rival for the party leadership [probably he was, at that]; but largely because Röhm was homosexual, & Hitler hated gays as much as he hated Jews!

Sorry for drift -- but all historically relevant UTAP...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 03:18 PM

~M~ -- I believe we both pretty much agree about Hitler's rise to power. Yes, Hitler was individually elected to the Reichstag; yes, the Nazi Party had a plurality in the governing body; yes Hitler was 'appointed' Chancellor. But it did have to be thus. Over 60% of Reichstag seats were not held by Nazis. If they had cooperated to put forth a candidate backed by more seats than Hitler, Hindenburg would have (had to) appoint(ed) that person. I believe many obscene machinations by Hitler, et. al.prevented this. I, therefore, reject the notion that Hitler was democratically elected to the position of chancellor.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 01:13 PM

Hitler was democratically elected as a member of the Reichstag, leader of the largest, tho not overall majority, party, which was why Hindenberg had to appoint him Chancellor. So to that extent he could be said to have been elected -- not as national leader, but as member of the Reichstag. All followed from there: he manoeuvred his status as Chancellor to make himself de facto The Big Banana with the help of some brownshirted persuaders patrolling the streets to rough up anyone who seemed to object. Unfortunately, in the confused situation following Hindenberg's death, the ploy worked, & he emerged as Der Führer

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 12:27 PM

Bobad wrote "By the way Hitler was democratically elected wasn't he...." In this he is wrong. It is a canard usually put forth by folks who seek to justify mal results of elections. I hasten to say this isn't the case with Bobad.

Hitler was never...repeat never...elected to the Chancellership of Germany. The Nazi Party never—again repeat never...held a majority of seats in the Reichstag prior to his elevation to that office in 1933. How did he get there?

Hitler roiled the fires of resentment of Germany's treatment by the Treaty of Versailles; by the world wide depression-especially hard in Germany; by scapegoating religious, political and racial groups; and by fomenting specific violence against the government and political opposition...remember the Brown Shirts? In the 1932 election, the Nazis won 230 seats of the 608 available—a plurality of about 37%. The myrid parties in Germany were unable to coalesce to form a larger plurality against the Nazis, and President Hindenberg was forced to invite Hitler to form a government. After Hindenberg died, Hitler made himself the 'de facto' unelected dictator of Germany.

Some democratic election, huh!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 10:52 AM

"Musket does not."

Anything else you want to put in my mouth Keith?

Bad enough you spout unintelligible bollocks without stating something about me that I never said. There again, the truth was never your mistress. Fucked her a few times I suppose, but you never bought her flowers.

Poo bad. Oh dear... Having completely failed to understand my post you then compound your ignorance by saying Hitler was democratically elected. Err.. When? Read your history books and especially how party leaders ask Presidents to allow them to form a government.

Yeah, I have thing for Hitler too. Rock on. I wank over pictures of him in my private wolf's lair in the spare bedroom. Fancy joining me and cracking one out?

Keith was right after all. When you have no answers you resort to insults. Or lying in his case...

Good job Tony Blair is negotiating a peace eh? After all, it could just as well have been one of you stupid imbeciles.... On balance, go for it Tony...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:50 AM

"I have this thing you see, about democratically elected governments and opposition parties."

Hamas was NOT democratically elected to the executive branch. It won a plurality in the legislative branch, was unable to form a coalition and took executive power in a violent coup throwing people off of buildings. Abbas was the elected leader of the presidency. Now neither have had recent elections.

Take a look at your "democratically elected government" showing the opposition party how to make a smooth transition of power (if you can stomach it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOWNNvhZ0e8

By the way Hitler was democratically elected wasn't he - I guess you have a thing for him too.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:44 AM

Eight years since Hamas was elected.
How many times have they put themselves up for re-election?
Never.
Not that democratic then.

United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan classify Hamas as a terrorist organization.

Musket does not.(snigger)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:12 AM

No. I would like to see all terror groups crushed and the political organisations that people vote for free from the terror wings that they are associated with, wouldn't you?

I have this thing you see, about democratically elected governments and opposition parties. I will ask that they be held to account, I will criticise their motives and in the case of Hamas, their corruption, and when they get beaten at the ballot box, or when other parties in league with their aims get beaten, I see it as a good sign. Based on my view. It is a bad sign perhaps for a Palestinian family being oppressed by Israeli soldiers.

But unlike war mongerers and pretend soldiers, I don't see any point in using military might to kill off a political viewpoint. Yes, hold the kidnappers to account. In fact put them in the dock with the Israeli generals using the kidnap as an excuse for oppression, endangering the lives of the young people even more.

I don't want to see religion inspired violence beaten, mainly because you can't, ever, and secondly because peace comes when you eradicate the issues they justify themselves with.

Jaw jaw, not war war, as Churchill said.

In any event, "Islamists" are being crushed, regularly. By Muslims. By followers of the Islamic faith. Funny that..

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:56 AM

"Err. Why do you want to crush Hammas Poo Bad?"

I would like to see all Islamist terrorist groups crushed - wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 03:56 AM

He did not say he wanted to crush it, just that it will be better when it is.

What do you like about them that you want them to go on?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 03:11 AM

Err. Why do you want to crush Hammas Poo Bad?

Isn't this a debate for onlookers and objective comment?

Not much point in grunting with the pigs.

Keep posting though, you give shallow fools such as Keith something to wake for in a morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 01:13 AM

Greg F prior to the announcement of this rapprochement between Fatah and Hamas how many Israelis have been kidnapped in either the West Bank or East Jerusalem?

Now we do know, and there is evidence to link, the practice of kidnapping Israelis is a standard tactic for Hamas in Gaza and for Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon (Although in the case of the latter the last time they tried it in 2006 they ended up bitterly regretting it). So for all of a sudden kidnapping to appear in an area where before it has not occurred for years who would be your main suspects?

Greg F prior to the announcement of this rapprochement between Fatah and Hamas how many rockets or mortars have been fired into Israel from either the West Bank or East Jerusalem? If all of a sudden that now started to happen who would be your prime suspects?

Abbas should not only be "lashing out" verbally at those responsible for kidnapping these teenagers, every single law enforcement officer and member of the Palestinian security and intelligence services should be ripping the place apart searching for them NOT the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 11:04 AM

Good news but it'll be even better once the kids are found and Hamas is crushed.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 10:54 AM

Israel tightens W. Bank grip as Abbas blasts kidnappers
AFP By Daphne Rousseau

Jerusalem (AFP) - Israel tightened its grip on the West Bank Wednesday, arresting another 65 people, as Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas lashed out at those behind the disappearance of three Israeli teenagers.

As the hunt for the youths entered its sixth day, there was no let-up in Israel's drive to deal a crushing blow to the West Bank infrastructure of Hamas, which it has blamed - without providing any proof - for the kidnapping.

But as troops pressed their biggest arrest operation in years, imposing a tight lockdown on huge swathes of the West Bank, Abbas blasted those behind the teens' disappearance, saying they were trying to "destroy" the Palestinian people.

Pundits have said Israel is seeking to use the massive military operation in the West Bank to bring about the collapse of the newly formed unity government.



http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-slams-abbas-support-israel-security-coordination-113942364.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 05:02 AM

The adults are despicable, and the kids will grow up to be even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:04 PM

Nice eh!

The latest Arab social media campaign is the three-fingered salute, celebrating the kidnapping of three Jewish boys, Eyal Yifrah, Gilad Shayar and Naftali Frenkel, by Hamas.

They're calling it the the "three Shalits" in reference to Gilad Shalit who was captured and kept hostage by Hamas until Israel released 1000 terrorists in exchange.

Now, look what all these proud Palestinian Authority parents have done. They've baked cakes. They photographed their little children showing solidarity with Hamas for kidnapping the boys.

They then proudly post the photographs of their children celebrating the kidnapping of Jewish children onto all the social media sites.

What a sick society they have created and are perpetrating onto the next generation.

Three Fingered Salute - New Low Even for "Palestinian" Society

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 01:55 AM

"They don't seem to have learned much vis a vis the treatment of Palestinians and the planting of illegal settlements, T-Bird."

What illegal settlements Greg F?

"There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. - bobad

Now that seems plain enough, but let us look at it from the other angle Greg F IF the settlements are illegal then that implies that there are borders and that the land "belongs" to someone else. Can you show us Greg F what borders the Palestinians accept, respect and guarantee?

This one perhaps?

As to the treatment of Palestinian Arabs and other minorities living in Israel I would think that the absence of masses of refugees fleeing this imagined oppression that you infer sort of blows that particular "duck" of yours clean out of the water.

Now if you want to really address how people treat other minority groups and other religions take a look at what has happened in Gaza since the Palestinians took over, take a look at Syria in the "rebel" held areas and take a look at the Lebanon since the Syrian invasion and occupation.

I think that what you will find is that the minority ethnic and religious groups in Israel are thriving whilst the ethnic and religious groups in all the other places mentioned have declined sharply.

Stringsinger, I will ask you a simple question that from you only requires a simple YES or NO answer (All other considerations can be debated afterwards) :

"Does the State of Israel have the right to exist and do the citizens of that sovereign state of Israel have the right to live in peace free from attack and threat of attack?"

I ask because I get the distinct impression from everything you write on the subject that the honest answer I expect to get from you is - NO it doesn't and NO they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:08 PM

According to latest reports, Hamas is responsible for the kidnapping

Reports from whom, and backed by what evidence, Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:54 PM

And then something about there being no illegal settlements.

Not much point in arguing with propagandist shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:54 PM

According to latest reports, Hamas is responsible for the kidnapping and have been sworn to secrecy not to cooperate in finding those responsible. This is very sinister and does indicate beyond reasonable doubt that they have connections to those responsible for this heinous crime. The demonstrations in the territories by Hamas supporters praising the kidnappings does give some hint as to the ideologies of those responsible.

Mahmoud Abbas has issued a statement condemning the kidnappings and pleading for an end to the violence. It is obvious that he has no control over the Hamas terrorist wing and he would be advised to annul the agreement with Hamas in a technocratic unity government. It remains to be seen if he will do so.

There is strong speculation that Hamas has many cells that are not answerable to any central Hamas command if it exists. This means that these cells operate independently and do what they wish without the knowledge of the political arm or even the so-called military wing of Hamas. If this is the case, the fate of the kidnapped teenagers is even more uncertain. No group within Hamas has claimed responsibility.

The most important thing now is to bring the kids back home safe and sound. All the accounts and blame-games must be placed on hold until we all know what their fate is - good or bad!

Shimon Zachary Klein

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:44 PM

Israel cracks down on Hamas amid search for teens
Associated Press By KARIN LAUB and JOSEF FEDERMAN
June 16, 2014

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel warned Monday it would exact a heavy price from Hamas, as a massive search for three missing Jewish seminary students turned into the widest crackdown on the Islamic militant group in the West Bank in almost a decade.

Israel has blamed Hamas for the apparent abductions, without providing proof, and has arrested more than 150 Palestinians since the three teens disappeared in the West Bank late Thursday.

Abbas condemned both the apparent kidnapping and a "series of Israeli violations" in a statement Monday. He referred to the arrests and the killing of a 20-year-old Palestinian by Israeli army fire early Monday, during a confrontation between stone throwers and soldiers in a West Bank refugee camp.

Despite the pitched rhetoric, Palestinian security officials have worked with Israeli counterparts to try to locate the missing teens, Palestinian officials said.

Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon said Hamas has begun "paying a heavy price, both in terms of arrests and assets," suggesting the aim is to try to dismantle the Hamas infrastructure in the West Bank. It's not clear how far Israel will go, though, considering the risk of a conflagration in the West Bank after several years of relative calm.

Israel has not provided evidence of Hamas involvement in the disappearance of the teens. Asked about Israel's claim, U.S. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said that while Hamas has used similar tactics in the past, "I don't want to jump to a conclusion" at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:30 PM

There are no illegal settlements

Right. You also believe in the Tooth Fairy, I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:10 PM

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 02:22 PM

Acts of benevolence between disputing parties provide a glimmer of hope

OK, well it would be an "act of benovelence" for the Israeli government to remove all of the illegal settlements instead of creating more on a daily basis, and it would be an "act of benovelence" for the Israeli government to cease its civil and human rights abuses.

These "acts of benevolence" might actually mean something, unlike yourt tale of a single doctor and a singkle patient.

Do you see either happening any time soon? And are you doing to bring about either eventuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM

So you would expect Israel to provide medical care to people who call for it's destruction for free?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:36 PM

"it's called benevolence"
No - it's called business
Jim Carroll

Palestinian medical tourism[edit]
A significant number of residents of the Palestinian territories seek medical treatment in Israel, often for sophisticated tests or treatments not available at Palestinian hospitals. Their treatment is paid for under a financial arrangement with the Palestinian Authority, or in some cases, at their own expense. Medical treatment for Gaza Strip residents is paid for by the Palestinian Authority or organizations such as the Peres Center for Peace.[29]
Palestinians who apply for medical treatment in Israel must obtain a humanitarian entry permit from Israel, of which thousands are issued annually. In January 2009, during the Gaza War, the Palestinian Authority temporarily canceled financial coverage for all medical care for Palestinians in Israeli hospitals, including coverage for the chronically ill and those in need of complex care not available in the Palestinian territories.Palestinian officials stated that they wished to send the patients to neighboring Arab countries instead, accusing Israeli officials of using Palestinian patients, some injured in Israeli airstrikes, in PR campaigns to improve Israel's tarnished image during the Gaza War.[30][31] In 2012, The Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Health reported spending approximately $42 million in 2011 to finance medical coverage of Palestinians in Israeli hospitals and the Arab World.[32] Arab citizens of Israel belong to the same health care system as that of all other citizens of the country.
File:Palestinian woman from the Gaza Strip is giving birth to quadruplets in a caesarean surgery in Israel Hospital.JPG
Gaza Strip resident giving birth to quadruplets at an Israeli hospital, 2008
The quality of medical care in Israel is significantly better than anywhere in the West Bank and Gaza. Irwin Mansdorf, a member of Task Force on Medical and Public Health Issues, Scholars for Peace in the Middle East wrote about routine care that Palestinians continue to receive in Israeli hospitals and from Israeli physicians.[33]
Saving Children, established by the Peres Peace Center, enables hundreds of Palestinian children to receive free medical care, in particular cardiac surgery, from Israeli surgeons.[34]
"Save A Child's Heart" is a program in which any child with heart problems can receive free medical attention and surgery from select doctors and hospitals within Israel. From 1996 to 2007, 4,591 children had been examined world wide, of the 1848 children treated 828 (45%) were Palestinian.[35]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:27 PM

"And the relevence of this single, one time act to the topic under discussion is.........?"

Acts of benevolence between disputing parties provide a glimmer of hope (to me anyway) that people will recognize their shared humanity and provide a step, however small it may be, toward reconciliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM

...That's all that is relevant in this discussion.

Sez you- who appointed you arbiter & when?

an Israeli doctor performed an act of benevolence

And the relevence of this single, one time act to the topic under discussion is.........?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:13 PM

Why is it so hard to believe that an Israeli doctor performed an act of benevolence for someone from a group for which Israel is an enemy? Is your hatred so profound that you can't bring yourself to accept that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:02 PM

I repeat, a physician is under no legal obligation to provide medical care to anyone who is not already their patient for whatever reason. Period. That's all that is relevant in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 12:55 PM

Cute, BooBad, but ya missed something:

Hippocratic Oath: Modern Version

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 12:35 PM

Under common law a physician has traditionally not been required to undertake the care of someone who is not already a patient. This reflects the position that no person is required to provide assistance to another except in exceptional circumstances.10,11,12 As summarized in St. John v. Pope (Texas Supreme Court, 1995), "Professionals do not owe a duty to exercise their particular talents, knowledge, and skill on behalf of every person they encounter in the course of the day … It is only with a physician's consent, whether express or implied, that the doctor–patient relationship comes into being."13 On the basis of the principle of contract law, that both parties must assent to the creation of a relationship, the right of refusal has been extended to emergency situations even when no other physician is available.14,15

10. Linden AM. Canadian tort law. 6th ed. Toronto: Butterworths; 1997. p. 284-99.
11. Fleming JG. The law of torts. 9th ed. Sydney (Australia): LBC Information Services; 1998. p. 162-72.
12. Klar LN. Tort law. 2nd ed. Scarborough (ON): Carswell; 1996. p. 147-69.
13. St. John v. Pope, 901 SW 2d 420 at 423 (Texas SC 1995).
14. Hurley v. Eddingfield, 59 NE 1058 (1901).
15. Fought v. Solce, 821 SW 2d 218 (Tex Ct Civ App 1991).

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:51 AM

Don't dispute your point re the Hippocratic Oath & its implications in the least, Ian. But you appear to me to have avoided the question as to why "Israel is where most Palestinians who can afford it go for healthcare", and what the implications may be for the subsequent reciprocal responsibilities of those 'electing' to exercise that option. Do you really feel that none such should exist?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:42 AM

There was a word in my post. The word was elective.

Whilst avoiding the issue of lack of infrastructure and medical expertise in a country professionals try to leave not enter, Israel is where most Palestinians who can afford it go for healthcare.

Not that such concerns would interest neocons and their apologists.

Let me repeat. Every doctor under professional registration is obliged to treat where possible in an emergency and not refuse elective care on the basis of enemy. You can refuse elective on any normal basis, be it time, funding, clinical risk or whatever you wish, but not on the opinion or status of the presenting patient.

The Red Cross, Red Crescent, Medicine sans Frontier and many more rely on this in order to save lives in areas of conflict. No doctor likes the inability to travel or relocate. Israel as any other country wants recognition of its medical schools so will not risk compromising its relationship with international concordats.

I once gave evidence at a fitness to practice panel at GMC for a doctor from Kuwait practicing here who had, quite lawfully in Kuwait, attended at executions, which is fine if he didn't touch anything or interfere until confirming death but was not passive, giving the go ahead for the trap door when satisfied the rope was attached correctly. They struck him off, which led to his visa being revoked. (My evidence was confirming his local work for the PCT I chaired.)

The international registration concordat through The World Health Organisation is strongly and rigorously upheld. Talk of President Abbas surgery being odd given circumstances politically is not reflecting any reality. Not allowing access to the hospital in the first place is one thing, but no surgeon will compromise their registration, unless they are foolish, and the Israeli law supports that clause.

There is some bollocks on this thread at times....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:15 AM

"What we have is children in the sandbox throwing sand at each other."

And you coming in with your inflammatory lie about Israel being a theocracy is constructive and helpful to the debate?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

The name-calling and rancor attending these erstwhile discussions proves the point as to why there continues to be open hostility between Israel and Palestinians.

There are no "right" answers as the pro-Israel pundits bloviate and the Palestinian people are second class citizens, even though Islam has its share of bloviaters as well.

The factoids presented here have no intrinsic value because they don't solve any problems but create more "walls" and divisions between people with their attempts to rationalize their
hostile behavior.

There is no real talk of peace between the two factions on this site which emphasizes
the thread's meaning here. The small hope has to do with the relinquishing of unhelpful factoids that support a propagandist point of view in the attempt for some to be "right" on this issue to bolster some egoistical claim to logic.

No real logic=no peace. Real logic has to do with an in-depth analysis of the situation and constructive attempts to solve the problem which is not found here or in the mid-East with perhaps the exception of BDS or the flotillas which remain to be seen.

In the meantime, the name-calling and self-righteous smugness of the Israeli defenders and the ignorance of the devastating effects of Islam regarding women's rights, Sharia law and other humanitarian violations is prevalent here.

What we have is children in the sandbox throwing sand at each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

But, Musket, you are avoiding the question of why that particular patient opted to have the doctors in that particular hospital provide the treatment she needed. It seems a bit perverse to demand treatment within a particular community which your husband simultaneously bends all his efforts and energies to undermining.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:50 AM

Abbas' wife was treated at a private clinic so I don't think it was an emergency. I maintain that it was an act of benevolence and there was no obligation to treat her when she could have just as easily been treated at home by qualified doctors trained by the Israelis. Your claim that every doctor is obliged to treat anyone who shows up and asks for it is not true. Dick head.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:39 AM

But Greg F the Israeli Government learned after 20 years.

Oh yes? They don't seem to have learned much vis a vis the treatment of Palestinians and the planting of illegal settlements, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:39 AM

Doctors don't have sworn enemies, they have patients.

Any doctor in any country is under obligation to treat anyone who presents if they are in a position to do so in an emergency and cannot refuse treatment electively on the basis of enemy.

It's called The Hippocratic Oath and forms the basis of the moral obligations of registration. Benevolence has nothing to do with it. It is a professional obligation.

A Palestinian doctor treats Israelis and vice versa. Both The UK and USA recognise medical schools in the area so on that alone, my knowledge serves me.

Poo Bad, is your comment about sworn enemy from ignorance or maliciousness?

Tell you what, is this lack of knowledge feeding all your other comments or is it healthcare you have no idea of?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:25 AM

The Hippocratic Oath has nothing to do with it dick head. The Israeli doctors are under no obligation to treat their sworn enemies - it's called benevolence. Now let see if that benevolence is reciprocated. I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:19 AM

What colour is the sky and how many Moons are there where you are sitting Musket? Because your rational, logic and reasoning are far removed the those considered normal on Planet Earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM

But Greg F the Israeli Government learned after 20 years. As evidenced by their now long standing agreements with Egypt and Jordan (The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan that is NOT Jordan the "glamour model")

They had signed up to all the bullshit Arab ceasefire promises in 1949 and 1956 only to see all the Arab promises broken so after the war in 1967 the Israelis adopted a different tack - land for peace.

Tried that in Gaza too but once again the Arabs of Palestine proved themselves to be liars incapable of keeping to their word.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM

From where I am sitting, saying that the Israelis are always being attacked by the Palestinians just shows the dangerous ignorance of people with no concept, no idea and nothing to bring to what was originally a serious debate.

The patterns and the scripts, not the pattern and the script. I have passed through checkpoints in the company of Israelis and Palestinians in the course of my business over the years and if I learned anything, it's not to take sides or assert the moral right of one side versus the other.

Doctors perform surgery under the Hippocratic Oath. To suggest they might use healthcare as a weapon is to slur the Israelis you are supporting, thick twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM

You'd think that after 67 years the Israeli government would have started to learn which end is up wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:30 AM

Recent events, the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers, have once again proved the pattern and the script for the last 93 years.

Arab attack, Israeli reaction

No attacks, no reactions

You'd think that after 67 years the Arabs of Palestine would have started to learn which end is up wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:28 PM

Will Abbas help find the kidnapped Israelis?

"Doctors in Israel performed surgery on Amina Abbas, the wife of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, at a private clinic near Tel Aviv over the weekend, as tensions between Israel and the PA mounted over the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers by Palestinian terrorists."

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 09:51 AM

Being rodents, I'm pretty sure Guinea pigs ar traif.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 01:16 AM

Presumably the Guinea pigs are kosher...

The coin didn't land on its edge Bruce.
zzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 04:59 PM

Oh.

And here I though it was because he thought he discovered some shit about you and was using it to make a snotty personal remark.

I suspect it's because he's confused you with someone else. Ridicule doesn't always make the intended target look stupid. (Of course, I could be wrong, but it's still amusing when he makes comments about OTHERS and their personal attacks.) Outtahere...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:28 PM

What the holy fuck are you talking about with the guinea pigs?!

Its an example of his rapier-like wit. Or half-wit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

You bet, BullshitBruce: All those thousands of Israeli citizens, the Society of Friends(Quakers), Amnesty International & etc. etc. etc - who oppose the policies of the Israeli Government, what it is perpetrating in the Occupied Teritories, its human rights abuses etc. - Anti-Semites, every man (and woman) jack of 'em.

All part of the Vast International Anti-Semetic Conspiracy, each & every one.

... discuss the facts.

When do you plan to begin?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

What the holy fuck are you talking about with the guinea pigs?!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:48 AM

And that is why YOU are the Mudcat expert on bullshit- it is all you have ever presented when asked for facts.

And the definition fits- Musket and YOU are both anti-Semites by the EU definition, from your own postings.


So go back to your guinea pigs and let the rest of us discuss the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:34 AM

More of the same tired old "anti-Semetic" horseshit, eh BB?

I seem to remember something about bullshit being the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

Trivia quiz, Muskie Baby:


How many time will you prove yourself a bigot and Anti-Semite ( by the EU definition) ?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:03 AM

Musket,

You seem to have problems with simple comprehension.

Israel was a NWS at the time of the NPT- IF it had signed it would have been entitled to keep those weapons and develop more, as the other NWS have done. Yet you complain about Israel.

Pakistan and India were NOT NWS at the time of the NPT- As non-NWS, they would have been forbidden from developing nuclear weapons and have been subject to inspections.
They chose NOT to sign, and then developed nuclear weapons. Yet you have nothing to say about Pakistan, or India.



So YOU criticize Israel for COMPLYING with a treaty IT DID NOT SIGN, nor get the benefits of, while keeping silent on nations such as Iran that have signed the treaty, then violated the terms after getting the benefits????


Sounds like you are BOTH a bigot and an Anti-Semite ( by EU definition)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:29 AM

I shall toss a coin.

Heads.

Anti semitism.

zzzzzzz







Trivia quiz. Brucie baby just mentioned three nuclear armed countries. Which of the three was already offence capable at the time of the agreement, hence refusing to sign something totally fucking different to the undertaking the other two had issues with?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 07:52 AM

Steve,

" Israel is in breach of a treaty that its major aid donors subscribe to"

This is a false statement , as shown by my previous post. Your repeating it makes you a liar, not just misinformed.




Musket,

AT THE TIME that the NPT was being signed, ISRAEL WOULD have been a NWS ++IF++ it had signed up. It chose NOT to sign, and therefore is NOT bound by the provisions that apply to SIGNATORIES. IF it had been a signatory, it would be a NWS.

You may say that it should have been a signatory, but then you need to address India and Pakistan, BOTH of which were NOT NWS at the time of the NPT, chose not to sign, and THEN developed nuclear weapons. Any criticism of Israel without holding Pakistan and India to the same standard is obvious bigotry, and Anti-Semetism according to the above referenced EU definition.

Which is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 06:22 AM

Mr. Shaw one question you seem to be assiduously dodging:

"Why after NINE Years are there still EIGHT Palestinian Refugee Camps in GAZA?"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM

Bearded Bruce overlooks an important point, not that he lets it bother him.

When did Israel admit to having nuclear weapons in the first place? You can't have it both ways.

If Yorkshire, with a similar population had their billions, they could afford to clean out the grease traps in the chippy on the High St in Heckmondwike.

What are the billions being spent on for fuck's sake? Welfare programmes? Most Israelis can survive day to day without government handouts and are overall rather affluent compared to many people so the billions given have to be spent somewhere. Usually spent taking the piss out of UN resolutions.....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:44 AM

Mr Shaw from the exchange regarding Israel the USA and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty I can only infer that you are a complete and utter feckin' eedjit.

Israel's "peaceful" nuclear programme was started shortly after those of the United Kingdom and that of France, it is supposed that Israel became a nuclear weapon state about 13 years BEFORE the Nuclear NPT came into effect. Israel is a non-signatory to that treaty so could you explain to us all, by whatever convoluted stretch and leap of logic precisely why the terms and conditions of the said Nuclear NPT should apply to Israel?

Ah yes all that aid from the USA going to Israel. Well not exactly aid Mr.Shaw they are "credits" that Israel can use or not at their discretion, and they have to be spent in the USA, or if spent in Israel the work resulting from that spent is subject to certain restrictions and prior US approvals. Now why did the USA and Israel feel the need for this "aid"? Ever hear of a thing called "The Cold War"? When US President Dwight D. Eisenhower fucked up right royally in 1956 and failed to back the UK and France over Suez almost overnight he created the following situation for America and the middle-east:

1: Egypt under Nasser found it had a reinforceable border with Israel which included a massive salient projecting deeply into the former mandated territory of Palestine (Gaza) which Egypt had taken by force in 1948.

2: Had Eisenhower backed Britain and France then to get to Israel, Egypt, the leader of the pan-Arabist movement at the time, would have had to confront and break through territory controlled by two permanent sitting members of the UN Security Council (Britain and France) before it could ever create trouble with Israel.

3: The USSR's backing of Nasser meant that most Arabs states fell into the USSR's sphere of influence and the USSR started dishing out the aid she is best known for giving - ARMS

4: The Arab countries of North Africa meant that the USSR secured the Southern shores of the Mediterranean and for the first time ever the USA had to deploy a "Mediterranean Fleet" (IIRC it was the US Sixth Fleet) prior to that the US had maintained a naval presence in the Mediterranean dating back to the early 19th century at a "Naval Squadron" level.

Israel DID get by without that aid in 1948 and her armed forces have never looked back since. The IDF exists to PROTECT Israel whereas the armed forces of Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and every other armed group supported by Arab States exist to ensure that whoever is in power stays in power withing the confines of their own borders - i.e. to suppress civilian dissent, which is why they tend to fare badly when confronted with trained opposition.

Glad you brought up Egypt and the Army - Nothing to do with the "big, bad, West" - the Army has been in control of Egypt ever since Colonel Gamal Abdel Nasser deposed King Farouk of Egypt in 1952 - to date nothing whatsoever has changed.

I did bring up Egypt and Jordan because they made agreements with Israel that they got their land back if they stopped attacking Israel. Since signing those deals there have been no attacks - so those "peace talks" were not only "meaningful" they actually "worked". Different completely to the talks between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs and the Syrians, but exactly the same would apply if the attacks stopped then sovereignty would be respected (Israel as I said has a proven track record of holding to its agreements and keeping their side of the bargain - Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Fatah on the other hand DO NOT)

Rather amused by your "naughty child" analogy. Now you tell me who is acting the part of the "Naughty Child":

1947 - UN propose a two-state solution, the Jews of Palestine agree the Arabs of Palestine reject the UN's proposals and opt for war in 1948 ( A war that they lose) Who was the "Naughty Child"?

1949 - After losing the War in 1948 the UN brokers a ceasefire in which Israel's Arab neighbours and the Arabs of Palestine sign agreeing to the borders defined by the agreement and to cease attacks on Israel. The attacks by Arab Fedayeen based in Egypt, Jordan and Syria continue from 1949 until 1956. Who is the "Naughty Child"?

Keeps going on in that vein right to this day (1967, 1973, 1978, 1982, 1993, 1996, 2000, 2005, 2006, 2008) - As far as the Arabs of Palestine go - their word is about as good as Hitler's was in the 1930s. Who is the "Naughty Child"?

67 years they have had to sort this out - let them get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 09:25 PM

The issue is not whether Israel signed things or not, though it's incredibly buttock-clenching to read about how the US have let Israel off the hook in this regard in such a lily-livered way. Truly, the US is Israel's poodle. The issue is that Israel is in breach of a treaty that its major aid donors subscribe to, and that those donors daren't say anything really. Mainly thanks to the undemocratic pro-Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, which, in the land of the free, dictates absolutely what politicians can and can't say about Israel. Now stop pissing around and let's hear you deny that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:07 PM

"
Ya got any actual facts you'd like to share, or just more editorials?"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:06 PM

Ever think of discussing facts instead of making un-based personal attacks?


No I guess not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:03 PM

Oh dear- another bout of serial postarrhoea. Ever think of changing your diet, BB?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:10 PM

Article I: Each nuclear-weapons state (NWS) undertakes not to transfer, to any recipient, nuclear weapons, or other nuclear explosive devices, and not to assist any non-nuclear weapon state to manufacture or acquire such weapons or devices.

Article II: Each non-NWS party undertakes not to receive, from any source, nuclear weapons, or other nuclear explosive devices; not to manufacture or acquire such weapons or devices; and not to receive any assistance in their manufacture.

Article III: Each non-NWS party undertakes to conclude an agreement with the IAEA for the application of its safeguards to all nuclear material in all of the state's peaceful nuclear activities and to prevent diversion of such material to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:52 PM

"However, Iraq was cited by the IAEA with punitive sanctions enacted against it by the UN Security Council for violating its NPT safeguards obligations;

North Korea never came into compliance with its NPT safeguards agreement and was cited repeatedly for these violations,[21] and later withdrew from the NPT and tested multiple nuclear devices;

Iran was found in non-compliance with its NPT safeguards obligations in an unusual non-consensus decision because it "failed in a number of instances over an extended period of time" to report aspects of its enrichment program;[22][23] and

Libya pursued a clandestine nuclear weapons program before abandoning it in December 2003."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:40 PM

Steve,

" Israel, in breach of international treaties to which its aid donors are signatories, has turned itself into a nuclear state."


This is an outright lie.
Israel had nuclear weapons BEFORE the ratification of the NPT, had chosen NOT to join it, and has abided by it's provisions anyway. IF it HAD signed the NPT, it would have been a "nuclear weapon state" like the US is.

Hardly a breach of a treaty it did not sign, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM

There have been "meaningful" peace talks (Certainly between Israel and the Egyptians and Jordanians)

Passing over the point for a minute that the thread is supposedly about Israel/Palestine, why yes, there have been the "peace talks" you refer to. The upshot was cod-westernisation of those countries, including the propping up of an undemocratic "kingdom" in the one and of a decades-long dictatorship in the other. So that did a lot of good, eh? Look how it's left Egypt. Are we supposed to be proud of that outcome, or do you wash your hands of it all because these feckless Arabs couldn't do anything right in a million years? Can't really win with you, can they?

As for those billions in aid to "Arabs", are we supposed to overlook the billions in aid to Israel, especially military (not to speak of special trade deals, etc.), a nation about as populous as Scotland? To make a fair comparison with your point about the Arabs, do you suppose that Israel would have got by without all that aid? The whole problem in the Middle East emanates from the fact that aid of any sort to Israel is virtually unconditional. And AIPAC et al. will always make sure that it is. If a naughty child gets away with its naughtiness time and time again without getting its botty smacked ever, it will come to think that naughtiness is normal, acceptable behaviour. Consider the brouhaha over the rumours that Iran was getting nukes or that Saddam had "WMDs", then remind yourself that Israel, in breach of international treaties to which its aid donors are signatories, has turned itself into a nuclear state. Give me your list of all the other currently non-nuclear states from which you'd find that kind of behaviour to be acceptable. Then consider the sheer partiality of your position. "Nothing can be done", eh? Plenty will be, though, with your attitude, and most of it will not be very nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:00 AM

I dont understand your point Keith. Get your Corporal to read it to you again.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 09:34 AM

Musket, you tried to make it about "resolutions" when you had been proved ignorant and wrong about "sanctions and "restrictions" and even made up a story about it.
Proof.

Musket - PM
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:48 PM
"There are no UN sanctions"
Oh well, that's alright then.
Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality.

Musket - PM
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM
I don't know about invisible ink, you put that, presumably to make you look foolish.
The EU restrictions apply. They apply to all countries under UN and a concordat of EU countries is in place over it. It covers offensive rather than defensive arms and anything used for nuclear weapons. The USA are the main breakers of the myriad resolutions covering it.



And of course, " Western governments who use resolutions such as this to rein in rogue states. In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM

Another war crime (violation of the Geneva Conventions) by Palestinians- Waiting on the UN resolution about it...


Militants fire rocket from Gaza Strip into Israel
Associated Press By IAN DEITCH

JERUSALEM (AP) — Militants in the Gaza Strip fired a rocket into Israel on Wednesday for the first time since rival Palestinian factions formed a national unity government, the Israeli military said.

Israel has warned it would hold the Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas responsible for any attacks out of Gaza since he formed a new government last week with the backing of the Islamic militant group Hamas, which seized control of Gaza in 2007.

There are no Hamas members in the government, but the armed group backs the new Cabinet. Israel and the West consider Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction and has killed hundreds of Israelis in suicide bombings on buses and in cafes along with other deadly attacks, a terrorist group.

Nobody was wounded by the rocket, which exploded on a road in the south of the country, Israeli police said.

Deputy defense minister Danny Danon called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to take action following Wednesday's attack. "This rocket fire is the direct result of the Hamas-supported government," Danon said. He said Israel should halt the transfer of taxes it collects on behalf of the Palestinians.

Thousands of rockets have been fired from Gaza over the years. The majority of them have been crude projectiles that disrupt daily life, damage property and spread panic. But they have also caused casualties. Israel has held Hamas responsible, sometimes retaliating with airstrikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM

You can only be anti piggery if you try educating it and assess it as capable of holding its own in an argument Michael.

In Keith's case, his insistence of sticking his finger in his ear and shouting La La I can't hear you! when his stance doesn't reflect reality says it all. He just got caught out not knowing the difference between resolution and sanction and is trying to blush his way through it by saying The UN is over rated anyway.

Maybe it is, but Keith, through his citizenship is bound by it. Someone tell him Rambo doesn't exist.


Oh, just to correct your typo Keith, I produce facts and insults, my dog supplies the farts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:45 AM

And what's all this "pork" you keep going on so pejoratively about, Musk? I don't think there is any place for speciesism or anti-piggery on this forum.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:15 AM

Still no actual facts from you.
Just unfunny funnies.

I produce facts and information, you farts and insults.
No contest.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:54 AM

Fell at the first word.

Then the second.

Mind you, I always felt guilty standing looking at the chimps tea party at the zoo. I felt it was somehow wrong. Perhaps I should stop taking you at face value and just let you get on with your fantasy. It's for the best.






There again, it does give light relief on a busy day...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:50 AM

Reasoned, informed argument versus playground name calling.
No contest.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:49 AM

On the basis you couldn't recognise the truth if it leapt up and shouted boo.

Not much point in educating pork. Why reason with an agenda?

Better to contemplate the density of the clitoral aspects eh ?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:18 AM

I demonstrate your ignorance and dishonesty.
You call me a naughty name.
No contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:12 AM

As you can see, one of my posts has been deleted.

No matter.

It was only two words.

Only really for consideration by Keith.

I make the diagnosis.

He exhibits the symptoms.

Life goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:41 AM

"There have been no meaningful peace talks for decades (though there have been plenty of charades perpetrated by the US/Israel axis), and there is no prospect of any to come. Why? Because the Israeli regime knows that it is totally immune from ever having to compromise."

There have been "meaningful" peace talks (Certainly between Israel and the Egyptians and Jordanians) but on each occasion involving the Arabs of Palestine the Arabs have pulled back as solutions have seemed to have appeared.

As I have said before nothing can be done until the Arabs of Palestine give formal recognition to the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace free from attack and free from the threat of attack. No nation should ever have to compromise its national security in the interest of others. Israel can not only survive but thrive without the Arabs of Palestine, the converse, however is not true, the Arabs of Palestine rely on Israel to provide the prosaic things in life, the Palestinians themselves having been on the receiving end of the world's largesse in the form of billions in aid for more than fifty years have achieved nothing and there is a reason for that - Had that aid been put to "good use" the "leaders of these "Palestinians" would have had to have worked for a living. It is in the interests of the "Palestinian leadership" to keep their Palestinians in abject poverty and totally reliant on meagre handouts - doubt that Mr. Shaw? Then please explain why there are "Palestinian Refugee Camps" in territory claimed as Palestinian and governed entirely by Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 09:08 PM

Another diversionary device so typical of BB.

Not a diversionary device at all - just another instance of his tired "anti-Semitism" horseshit routine.

Predictable as well as boring.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 07:51 PM

Glad you put "peace talks" in quotes. There have been no meaningful peace talks for decades (though there have been plenty of charades perpetrated by the US/Israel axis), and there is no prospect of any to come. Why? Because the Israeli regime knows that it is totally immune from ever having to compromise. The US, and, in particular, AIPAC and its undemocratic fellow-travellers, will always see to that. AIPAC ensures that compromise talk from you equals your conversion to toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:22 PM

"And not ONE UN resolution calling for N. Korea to cease, nor one word of protest from the certified ( BY EU STANDARDS) Anti-Semites here. Seems like they can only bring up Israel, and have selective blindness on all other countries. THAT is ANTI-SEMITISM by definition."

Another diversionary device so typical of BB.

What would you expect to find under discussion in a thread entitled "Small hope for Israel/Palestine?"

Space travel?

Once again, for the terminally confused: The fact that others are as bad, or worse, does not excuse the behaviour of Israel's hard line racist government.

And reporting events of two years ago, begs the question "What about now, and Israel's devious destruction of what were purported to be "Peace Talks", which in truth were cover for more West Bank settlements.

The current Israeli government makes a corkscrew look like the shortest distance between two points.

They have elevated dishonesty and dishonour to an art form.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:09 PM

Too true. It's the most copper bottomed fact I have said about you.

Not my fault you keep proving it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 12:05 PM

You can call me a rude name, but it changes nothing.
You were shown to be wrong about basic facts, and you tried to lie yourself out of it.
That is fact, not gratuitous abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM

Sensitive nuclear material can not be sold to anyone.
Israel is not singled out in anyway.
It is an associate EU member, not a "rogue state."

You said,
"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

There are not and we don't.
You are wrong.
I was right, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM

"You were wrong, I was right as ever.."

That's funny.

The fact that you are talking out of your arse makes it fucking hilarious.

The fact that you write in such a manner has most people on Mudcat squirm as they read it. Haven't you noticed? No, perhaps not. Your circle of pretend soldiers all speak like that. The likes of Paul Whitehouse etc get a lot of mileage out of the sad buggers in their sketches and they all seem to talk like that. Are an advisor to The Fast Show perchance?

I never mentioned sanctions, I have repeated this for half a dozen posts and still you think nobody will notice.

You cannot sell offensive nor nuclear weaponry technology to the rogue state of Israel from within The EU. I am not aware that the restriction has altered, especially as the resolutions build up. Granted, you claim to be something to do with soldiers (a lass I once knew had something to do with soldiers for that matter) you tell me because I could never tell the difference between offensive and defensive when it comes to conventional weaponry.

There again, JCB sell them defensive bulldozers.

Nice...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 09:19 AM

Musket, when I said there were no UN sanctions you challenged it saying it was outside of reality.
You were wrong and I was right, as ever.

You also said," In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

There are not.
You were wrong and I was right, as ever.

There are no such sanctions against Israel that might apply to a British company exporting to Israel, so your little story was made up.
You can sell them invisible ink, false moustaches and anything else you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 08:50 AM

UN Sanctions Report - No mention of Israel

As for all those "resolutions" if you read through them they are totally ridiculous and none of them paint the UN as an International organisation in a very good light

Of the 21 referring to Israel in 2013 two are actually targeted at those countries that are non-signatories of the Nuclear NPT - so not specifically an anti-Israeli resolution.

The remainder witter on about the integrity of the borders of Palestinian land which of course is a nonsense - Nowhere have I seen any agreement as to what actually constitutes the borders of this Palestinian land that the Palestinians agree to. Nowhere is the sovereign right of the State of Israel or the integrity of its borders mentioned - rather hypocritical that don't you think.

The right of Palestinians to live free from attack and the threat of attack also features large in these resolutions - pity it doesn't mention their predilection for attacking Israel which seems to be OK as far as the UN is concerned.

Rights of return and compensation is mentioned but apparently the 820,000 Jews dispossessed and forcibly deported from Arab lands where they resided for centuries do not merit any right of return or compensation.

Seems like those Arabs of Palestine firmly believe in one law for the goose and another one entirely for the gander.

Little wonder nobody bothers with these resolutions - they are ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 08:36 AM

Like I said, that's alight then.

Who said there were? I said there were resolutions and EU wide restrictions, (as it was impossible to make it NATO) on offensive arms and materials for atomic weapons.

Stop trying to turn resolutions into sanctions.

There really are UN resolutions.

They speak for us. We are members. Stop saying otherwise, prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:25 AM

"There are no UN sanctions"

Oh well, that's alright then.

Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality.

There really are no UN sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:57 AM

The majority of voting UN members are dictatorships and tyrannical regimes and in the General Council they outvote liberal, libertarian democracies like ours.
They do not speak for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:32 AM

Keith. No we didn't. We voted and supported the outcome. That's called the democratic process.

You really have a low opinion of people's' intelligence don't you? Unless you leave the organisation as a result of a vote, you support it. Full stop. Remaining in The UN is supporting the resolutions of The UN. Any abstentions or otherwise serve purely to perpetuate the Bush Blair pact. We have a sad habit of asking The US how to vote and The US parties rely on pro Israeli funding. I suppose that's democracy too, sadly.

Whether the density of your clitoral region is high or otherwise is one thing, but don't post bullshit in the hope that people reading it are as dense.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 04:11 PM

Musket.
Calling something made up isn't very clever Keith. In fact, as actions go, it has a density about it that refers to clitoral regions.

You said,
"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

That is completely untrue.
Made up.
False.

Re all those UN resolutions, it is not us.
Our government, like all democratic governments, abstained or voted against.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:25 PM

"Wilshaw said."

Yep, says it all really.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:19 PM

Since when did Israel have fringes? My iPad gets worse.

Could have been Freudian I suppose. Human rights seem to be a fringe concern there....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:16 PM

"The report covered in some detail - no Islamic plots, no bomb-making classes - just schools teaching religion - with a few unsubstantiated rumours thrown in".
Most of the 'problems' described are common to most schools run by religious bodies (which I don't approve of in any circumstances and whatever the religion).
O Bearded One.
Are you suggesting that Ofsted found no Islamism because they didn't do their job properly, or simply because they lied about not having done so?
As I said - a damp squib, with an added advantage that Muslim students in Britain are reckoned to be educationally the highest cultural group of achievers in the land, and the most dedicated to learning - official.
"My country is under attack. Do you care?"
Then he must know what it feels like to be any Palestinian man, woman or child living next to a country dedicated to terrorism in order to push its boundries in order to create a monocultural state - poor basrtard - my heart bleeds for him!
Jim Carroll

GOVE TOLD TO LAUNCH 'DAWN RAIDS' ON SCHOOLS
Cameron takes charge after ministers' bust-up
Francis Elliott, Greg Hurst

David Cameron has ordered Michael Gove to start work on "dawn- raid" inspections after officials found schools covering up evidence of Islamist infiltration.
The prime minster, angered and embarrassed by a bust-up between his education and home secretaries on the issue, will take charge today of the response to two official reports on allegations of extremist Muslims taking over Birmingham schools.
Mr Gove and Theresa May have been summoned to a meeting in No 10 early today in what amounts to a further public rebuke for the rift first exposed by The Times last week.
Rattled by Labour's accusation that in-fighting is hampering the govern¬ment's response, Downing Street re¬leased last night the key findings of the reports and what action it will take.
One of the most serious findings is that staff at one of the schools involved used the notice period given before an inspection to stage "hastily arranged shows of cultural inclusivity", among them lessons on Christianity and an assembly on Easter.
Speaking before today's meeting, Mr Cameron said: "Protecting our children is one of the first duties of government and that is why the issue of alleged Islamist extremism in Birmingham schools demands a robust response.
The education secretary will now ask Sir Michael Wilshaw [the head of Ofsted] to look into allowing any school to be inspected at no notice and stop¬ping schools having the opportunity to cover up activities which have no place in our society."
The disclosures will begin in the early afternoon as Ofsted publishes full inspection reports for five schools where the problems were most acute. It will also publish findings into 16 other schools in the "Trojan Horse" scandal.
Sir Michael will recommend new rules to curb the infiltration of schools, including tighter vetting of governors and more stringent checks on their interests and activities.
At the same time, Mr Gove will pub¬lish reports into visits to a handful of the schools by staff from the Department for Education's funding agency, which monitors academies. This will raise more concerns about radicalisation than those from Ofsted.
It is these reports that have led to demands for "dawn-raid" inspections.
One, about Oldknow school, says that "staff told us that they had been instructed to add Christianity to learning because of our visit". The report adds:
We were told by two staff members that the assembly [on Easter and Chris¬tianity] had also been put on especially for our benefit." Officials also found that a time-tabled literacy lesson was switched for an RE lesson on Christianity before the inspection. Government sources say that the findings of the Ofsted inspections also underline the need for "no-notice" in-spections. "The previous inspections Pupils in a Birmingham primary school were warned by teachers about "white prostitutes" and "hellfire", a report says.
One teacher was said to have led a chant at an assembly, asking children: "Do we believe in Christmas?" The pupils chanted back: "No, we don't"
Teachers and children at Oldknow Academy, in Small Heath, were said to refer to Christians as "kaffirs", an Ara¬bic word meaning unbeliever or infidel.
A series of criticisms of Oldknow are set out in a report by the Education Funding Agency, part of the Depart¬ment for Education, which monitors academies although its chief role is to check their accounts. Concerns include the conduct of school assemblies on Fridays, the chief day of worship for Muslims, The Mail on Sunday reported.
"We were told by teachers that non- Muslim teaching staff are no longer allowed to take Friday assemblies," the report said.
"In separate interviews, staff told us that in Friday assemblies, occasionally words have been used such as 'white prostitute' and 'hellfire' which they felt were inappropriate for young children."
The criticisms of Oldknow Academy by DfE officials appear to be more serious than those by Ofsted, which made a separate inspection of the school but was said to have found no evidence of anti-Christian chanting.
Ofsted previously declared Oldknow outstanding in all areas when it inspected the school in January 2013, but in its new report the watchdog declares the school inadequate and to be in need of special measures.
The inspectorate found that at Saltley, another of the schools at the centre of the allegations, governors spent substantial amounts of money "with no obvious benefit" and said some teachers and other staff complained that they were treated unequally "because of their beliefs, religion or background". Saltley was rated good when it was last inspected in May last year However, inspectors returned last autumn after being alerted to concerns about governance and warned that the "dysfunctional relationship between the governors and the head teacher is damaging the school's capacity to improve".
The DfE will also publish its own report on Park View Academy. It was declared outstanding two years ago but will be downgraded to "in need of special measures". It was said by Ofsted to be failing to prepare its mostly Muslim pupils for wider society, although there was no evidence of extremist activity.
Inspectors said that children at the secondary school had "limited" understanding of different cultures and beliefs and a "superficial" grasp of awareness of life elsewhere in Britain.
This echoed concerns of inspectors about Golden Hillock, a secondary school that Park View took over last year as an academy sponsor. Ofsted said that its pupils were at risk of radicalisation and of growing up in "cultural isolation".
Ofsted said that senior staff and governors at Golden Hillock were not doing enough to keep pupils safe from extremist views. The school attacked the findings as a "misrepresentation" and said there was no evidence that the school tolerated or promoted radicalisation or extremism. Park View Educational Trust is preparing a legal challenge to Ofsted reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 12:32 PM

Err.. Bruce. In 2013 The UN issued 21 resolutions censoring Israel and one censoring North Korea, I suppose it is to be expected that a thread about Israel and Palestine might just throw up some of the atrocities and fringes of the Israeli state?

Ditto your cut & parts bit about guinea pigs. Thanks for posting it twice. Almost as funny on this thread as the other one.

Leave the propaganda for those impressed by it eh? There are some on here capable of finding out all sides accounts and reaching their own conclusions. Just because we humour Keith and Poo Bad doesn't mean they contribute, it just means we like entertainment.

zzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

Hey BS Bruce: once again, your steel-trap mind has failed you - wrong thread, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 12:00 PM

GregF,

The rest of the article (Not just YOUR quote from the person being accused):

"Staff and some head teachers variously described feeling 'intimidated', 'undermined' or 'bullied' by governors, and sometimes by senior staff, into making changes they did not support," Wilshaw said.

Of the schools inspected by OFSTED, five were classed as failing and placed under special measures, 12 were told they needed to make improvements and three were praised. Park View Educational trust, which runs three of the criticized schools, rejected the inspectors' verdict. Vice chairman David Hughes said the inspectors "came to our schools looking for extremism, looking for segregation, looking for proof that our children have religion forced upon them as part of an Islamic plot."

"The OFSTED reports find absolutely no evidence of this because this is categorically not what is happening at our schools," he said.




So YOUR post is of no value to the discussion, as you have demonstrated may times in the past.




You do know that your treatment of guinea pigs and other small animals would get you executed under Sharia Law, don't you, GregF?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 11:55 AM

"The United Nations in March called for the field office to monitor human rights in North Korea following the release of a 372-page U.N. Commission of Inquiry report that detailed wide-ranging abuses, including systematic torture, starvation and killings comparable to Nazi-era atrocities."

And not ONE UN resolution calling for N. Korea to cease, nor one word of protest from the certified ( BY EU STANDARDS) Anti-Semites here. Seems like they can only bring up Israel, and have selective blindness on all other countries. THAT is ANTI-SEMITISM by definition.





"***But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction – is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.****"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 11:54 AM

Well,Bruce, I'll see your Arsen Ostrovsky of the Hudson Institute and a EYEontheUN.org ( who seems able to find anti-Senitism everywhere he looks) and raise you one


Hudson Institute and 'Eye on the UN' join the ranks of gutter journalists

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 11:33 AM

Rocket Attacks in IsraelRocket Attacks in Israel
My country is under attack. Do you care?

by Arsen Ostrovsky   
      
I'm angry.
You see, as most Americans were waking up this morning, and those in Europe and elsewhere around the world were going about their daily routines, here in Israel – over one million people were running for cover from a hail of rockets being rained down by Palestinian terrorists in Gaza. In the space of 24 hours, since Tuesday evening, 80 rockets have been fired on southern Israel. That's more than three rockets per hour. By the time I finish this article, odds are that count will have risen to 85 rockets.
Just to put things in context: one million Israelis is roughly 13 per cent of the population. Thirteen per cent of the U.S. population equates to about 40 million people.
A dozen Israelis have already been injured, with several of them seriously. The only reason more have not been hurt is because Israel has invested millions of dollars in bomb shelters and the Iron Dome defense system, while Hamas has invested millions of dollars in foreign aid in more rockets.
But here is why I'm angry.
I'm angry that in 2012, over 600 rockets have already been fired from Gaza with no end in sight. I'm angry that the world only notices when Israel undertakes its (sovereign) right to defend its citizens. Can you imagine if even one rocket was fired on Washington, London, Paris or Moscow? No nation on earth can, or should, tolerate such attacks on its people.
I'm angry that while the United Nations never hesitates to call a 'special emergency session' on the 'Question of Palestine' or pass the umpteenth resolution blindly condemning Israel, that I am still waiting for a session on the 'Question of Israel' and Palestinian terror. In fact, 24 hours after the rocket attacks started, I am still waiting for even one syllable of condemnation from the UN Security Council, the UN General Assembly or Navi Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.
I'm angry that Ban Ki-Moon, the UN Secretary-General, could not find a moment to condemn the Palestinian rockets, but did find time to laugh and dance with South Korean rapper Psy from the popular dance craze Gangnam Style.
I'm angry that while the EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton slammed Israel last week over the building of several hundred apartments (in an area that will arguably remain part of Israel anyway), that I am still waiting for her to slam the Palestinians for firing 80 rockets in one day.
I'm angry that there are those who continue to call for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against the Jewish State, but are silent in the face of Palestinian terror.
I'm angry that ships and flotillas continue to set sail for Gaza to show 'solidarity' with the Palestinians, but where is their solidarity with the people of southern Israel?
I'm angry that while human rights organizations like Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, Oxfam and others do not waste a single opportunity to condemn Israel for human rights violations against the Palestinians, the human rights of Israelis are seemingly not important enough for them. Is Jewish blood really that cheap?
I'm angry that mainstream newspapers like the New York Times, lead their stories about the rocket attacks with such headlines as "Four Palestinian Militants Killed in Israeli Airstrikes," and not "Palestinian Terrorists Rain Down Over 80 Rockets against one million Israelis."
I'm angry that so many people are blind to the fact that Iran, which has called for Israel to be wiped off the map and now seeks to obtain nuclear weapons, is the primary funder and supplier of arms to Hamas. I'm angry at the fact that all civilians in southern Israel today were instructed not to send their kids to school and stay in bomb shelters. What sort of inhumane way is that for children to live?
I'm angry when people continue to say that 'settlements' are the main impediment to peace, and not Hamas, a terrorist group which does not recognize Israel's right to exist and seeks its destruction. I'm angry when I see pictures like this, of a home in southern Israel hit by a rocket from Gaza today, yet have the audacity to say "ah, but they're just like toys; what damage can they do?"
I'm angry that there is someone out there who does not know me and has never met me, yet still wants to kill me – for no other reason than being Israeli.
I'm angry when I hear residents in southern Israel say "we just lie on top of our children and try to protect them with our bodies" or that "we're living on borrowed time" – yet the world seems oblivious to their desperate cries for help.
No, I am not angry. I am outraged.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 10:38 AM

Or is your problem that the author of the piece is a Jew?

Same old anti-Semitic horseshit AGAIN, Boo? You need a new script writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 09:49 AM

Did really write "c***"? - apologies to all - multi-tasking again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 08:21 AM

"Bobad has shown that Human Rights Watch is biased against Israel."
Bobad consitently drags up cunt-'n-pastes from extremist racist and Zionist sites, and you go along with them.
Nobody has ever shown Human Rights watch is biased against Israel or anybody, just that the extremists have accused it as being so - in your bok and that of your little band of brothers, everybody who criticised Israel is biased.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM

Governments criticise Human Rights Watch.. Well fuck me with a bent banana.

I never knew they had anything to be ashamed of......

If an NGO has something wrong, then I'm sure a government can point it out and it is incumbent on the credibility of the NGO to rectify it.

You don't think, however, that the "bias" is merely hitting the target? After all, there are more UN resolutions to force Israel to behave than any other country. 21 out of the whole 25 resolutions in 2013 alone, never mind the many still outstanding.
This is UN by the way, not HRW or Amnesty International or any other humanitarian NGO concerned about the behaviour of a rogue state. This is me, Keith, Steve, Poo Bad and everybody else on Mudcat calling them a rogue state through our elected politicians and those charged by them to represent our views at The UN.

Calling something made up isn't very clever Keith. In fact, as actions go, it has a density about it that refers to clitoral regions.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 04:18 AM

if all these 'democratic states' say Israel is OK, then she must be OK.

They criticise Israel all the time, but not for things they know never happened.

Bobad has shown that Human Rights Watch is biased against Israel.
No democratic government has accused Israel of war crimes , massacres or atrocities.
Try not to be so naively gullible Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:57 AM

We have Keith's message loud and clear - if if the politicians who took us into Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam, who oversaw atrocities in Abu Graib and are still induling in them in Guantanamo, who sold weapons and chemicals to Qaddafi and Assad, and are still selling them to terrorist states throughout the world..... if all these 'democratic states' say Israel is OK, then she must be OK.
None of them have, of course - they've just stayed silent and ignored the Human Rights organisations - the real guardians of our safety and consciences - that's diplomacy (and business) for you.
None of this alters the documented and photographic evidence that Israel has become little different than the former persecutors of the Jewish people.
These apologist morons are the real Antisemites; those who excuse the atrocities and identify them as being "Jewish".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 01:24 AM

"now only says he's an antisemite "in their terms". So a nice bit of subtle distance put. Don't think I haven't noticed, Michael".
.,,.

What a piddlingly pathetically desperate non-point even from Mr Buttinski-Shaw. Better go back in his garden and play with that big cuddly teddy of his...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:22 PM

So Greg, is the quote from Aba Eban an opinion? Is the quote from the UN translator an opinion? Is the statement that EU recently found that the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah had squandered close to €2bn of aid from European taxpayers an opinion? Is the Nuremberg-style rally at the Palestinian Al-Quds University an opinion? Or is your problem that the author of the piece is a Jew?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:08 PM

Another Op-Ed piece in the Guardian, Boo, by Alexander Ryvchin, public affairs officer at the Executive Council of Australian Jewry?

Ya got any actual facts you'd like to share, or just more editorials?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:44 PM

Bobad the intellectual minnow continues to clasp his/her hands over his/her ears whilst showering us with useless copy-'n'-pastes and inane quotes from mad sources. One day she/he'll actually give us her/his own opinion in words of more than one syllable in several coherent sentences. Jeez, don't I have such faith in him/her.

the two recent Israeli wars in Lebanon and Gaza.

Touching, isn't it, how the Islamophobic right love to characterise these two incidents as "wars", as if they were somehow conducted on equal terms by factions with equal resources. Not "invasions", then. Revisionism is alive and well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:31 PM

Again from the above linked article:

the candid reaction of a Spanish-speaking UN interpreter, oblivious to the fact that her microphone remained on as she addressed her colleague:

    "I mean, I think when you have five statements, not five, like a total of ten resolutions on Israel and Palestine, there's gotta be something, c'est un peu trop, non? [It's a bit much, no?] I mean I know… There's other really bad shit happening [around the world], but no one says anything about the other stuff."


I can provide numerous more examples.....need I go on?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:28 PM

Classic quote from Israel's legendary statesman Abba Eban from the above linked article:

"If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:24 PM

"For example, the EU recently found that the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah had squandered close to €2bn of aid from European taxpayers; aid intended to build Palestinian institutions, enfranchise the people, elevate their quality of life. Meanwhile, the Palestinian Al-Quds University is reported to have staged a Nuremberg-style rally by members of the Islamic Jihad terrorist organisation, replete with black uniforms and Nazi salutes. Yet such issues concerning incitement and mismanagement, which strike at the heart of why the Palestinians' national goals remain unfulfilled, are routinely overlooked by the UN.

The UN's one-sidedness has also damaged the larger cause of human rights. So far this year, the UN general assembly has passed 21 resolutions condemning Israel. Four resolutions have been passed against all countries in the rest of the world combined. In the meantime, one can only guess at what truly motivates self-declared supporters of the Palestinian cause who remain relatively silent about the Egyptian blockade of Gaza, or the suffering of Palestinians embroiled in the Syrian conflict."

The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:52 PM

Besides, one person is supposed to poison the entire organization? They canned him. What did you want them to do- keep him on and promote him?

Same old paste-and-copy one-liner horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:52 PM

Right, Boo- Blog-O-Paedia- MUST be true, then. Even if they are unproven accusations, your usual fare. Look up the Blog-O-Paedia entry for UN Watch, why dontcha?

And please, not the Nazi horseshit yet again. Who gives a crap WHAT the man collects? Or are you saying that the collection makes him a de facto Nazi? That's even beyond your usual level of horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:46 PM

The international non-governmental organization Human Rights Watch (HRW) has been criticized by national governments, other NGOs, the media, and its founder and former Chairman Robert L. Bernstein. Among other things, critics have accused the organization of being influenced by United States government policy, particularly in relation to reporting on Latin America; ignoring anti-Semitism in Europe or being itself an anti-Semitic organization; biases in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict; and unfair and biased reporting of human rights issues in Eritrea and Ethiopia. Accusations in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict include claims that HRW is biased against Israel and that this bias in influenced by requesting or accepting donations from Saudi Arabian citizens.

Criticism of Human Rights Watch

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:38 PM

Human Rights Watch investigator suspended over Nazi memorabilia

A senior military analyst with the international watchdog, Human Rights Watch, has been suspended by the organisation following controversy surrounding his collection of Nazi wartime medals and memorabilia.

Marc Garlasco, a former intelligence officer for the Pentagon, has in recent days become the subject of pro-Israeli bloggers who have pointed out that he is an avid collector of Nazi memorabilia from the second world war. The bloggers have questioned whether this is an appropriate hobby for someone who has led Human Rights Watch's investigations into the two recent Israeli wars in Lebanon and Gaza.

The greatest controversy has focused on postings he has made to military memorabilia online bulletin boards under the moniker Flak 88*. In one he was shown wearing a jumper bearing an Iron Cross. In another he wrote: "That is so cool! The leather SS jacket makes my blood go cold it is so COOL!"

Note: 88 = Nazi skinhead code for Heil Hitler. H being the 8th letter of the alphabet, therefore HH=88.


The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:28 PM

Musket, that UK government site is about "arms embargoes and other restrictions."

UK is bound by both UN and EU restrictions.
THERE ARE NONE AGAINST ISRAEL.

stop trying to make me look a liar Keith,

I just supply the facts Musket.
The lies come from you.

"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

That is completely untrue.
Made up.
False.
Honest mistake or something else Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:23 PM

Well, Boo, instead of another of your Pro-Israeli U.N.-Bashing site, let's see what Human Rights Watch has to say


Here


And Here


And Here


And Here

for example....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:01 PM

Gosh, a day in me garden and I find that all this is still going on.

"If you go on saying "Nazi" then you are, in their terms, 'antisemitic'.

Progress at last. Michael has stopped calling Jim an antisemite in unqualified terms, and now only says he's an antisemite "in their terms". So a nice bit of subtle distance put. Don't think I haven't noticed, Michael. Even more backtracking would be welcome, however. If your hubris allows, of course. I love it when I see a man wriggle who really knows he's wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:54 PM

UN, Israel & Anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:44 PM

"There are no UN sanctions against Israel"

"Here is a list of arms embargoes."

Oh dear, where do I start...

Whether it be the list of UN resolutions (as opposed to sanctions as Keith tried changing my words to) or the difference between UK government restrictions and international restrictions we abide by.

Good job I'm not a thick cunt eh?

stop trying to make me look a liar Keith, I'm injecting a bit of reality into this la la land debate. Sorry but I have no time for people who spoil what could be decent debate by your pathetic games. I brush fools off before breakfast and judging by recent threads, so do many others here.

Give up Keith. Best to look daft as a brush than the weird bloke in the tap room with a jacket bought from Army Surplus and ranting about how a military view is interesting..

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:21 PM

Musket, here are all UK and EU restricted countries.
You will not find Israel mentioned.
Where was your firm based?
Yemen?

https://www.gov.uk/current-arms-embargoes-and-other-restrictions

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:15 PM

Jim the governments of France, Ireland, Sweden, Canada, Australia, Finland, etc. are not so "fascist" and not so "interested" that they will rip into Israel over certain policies but ignore war crimes, atrocities and massacres!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:09 PM

There are no UN sanctions against Israel.
Perhaps you are confusing it with Iran?

You also said this

"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment (invisible ink?) to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

It is completely untrue.
Made up.
False.
Honest mistake or something else Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:48 PM

"There are no UN sanctions"

Oh well, that's alright then.

Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality.

How are the toy soldiers?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 01:37 PM

"No democratic government have accused Israel of atrocity or any war crime."
You have made your point Keith - that as far as you are concerned the silence of interested politicians takes precedence over independent reports, human rights groups, protesting Jews.... anybody and everybody who accuses Israel of the atrocities that have been fully documented and in many cases, photographed.
This not only confirms your own fascism, but it is (I believe) an accurate of Israel's fascism - you can't say it clearer than that
That'll do nicely thank you.
Pontificating waffle is no substitute for honest responses Mike
I take it you're all the way with Keith's fascism - your somewhat spineless evasion indicate that to be the case.
Please don't ever call me a bad loser again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:32 PM

An appeal from Fairyland to one Mr J Carroll, who needs urgently to get his head together regarding the several functions of two of our dramatically distinguished magical denizens.

Please would he note that ~~~

The Fairy Godmother was the supernatural enabler who organised means for her Goddaughter Cinderella to go to the Ball to meet Prince Charming, despite the efforts of her two malevolent Ugly Stepsisters [whose names, according to Fairyland folklore, were Jemima & Carol] to prevent her attendance at this enviable function.

I, on the other hand, am the glittering & bellringing assistant to one Mr Peter Pan, who occurs in quite another dramatic entertainment.

It would be much appreciated if Mr Carroll would stop confusing us. Our roles, personalities, and comparative status, are vastly different.

Thank you in advance, Mr Carroll, for your kind consideration of my request.

Yours spellbindingly

☤~Tinkerbell~☤

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:02 PM

"Mike has declined to comment on Jewish accusations of Einstein and co's comments on Israel, or on any similar Jewish statement - gullible propaganda - Antisemitism - what?"
,..,
No I haven't --

"If you go on saying "Nazi" then you are, in their terms, 'antisemitic'. So are all & any of these celebs & notables you adduce if they do so, Jewish or not." 0437 am
.,,.

If you make these accusations and then don't trouble to read the replies to them, as here, you only make a bigger, & more contemptible, fool of yourself, don't you, Jim?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM

There are no UN sanctions either.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:13 AM

Musket, you said this.

"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment (false moustaches?) to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

It is completely untrue.
There are no such EU restrictions.
You made it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM

I don't know about invisible ink, you put that, presumably to make you look foolish.

The EU restrictions apply. They apply to all countries under UN and a concordat of EU countries is in place over it. It covers offensive rather than defensive arms and anything used for nuclear weapons. The USA are the main breakers of the myriad resolutions covering it.

You only issue UN resolutions when you agree them. Rogue state.

Did they teach you how to defend Israel against wogs in the "paras"? {snigger}

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:03 AM

Jim, here is the report of the Israeli enquiry you mention.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/kahan.html

It does not " ridicule the claim that a massacre was not forseen by Israeli officials," it just says that it should have been foreseen.

No democratic government have accused Israel of atrocity or any war crime.
That is why you can not produced any.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:47 AM

Musket, you said this.

"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment (invisible ink?) to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

It is completely untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM

In 2013 alone, The UN handed out 25 resolutions overall, 21 against the rogue state of Israel.

When selling certain machined equipment, we had to prove as part of our export licence that they could not be used for Israeli atomic weapon development, and that if used by the military (who purchase construction plant as the Arabs facing bulldozers and wreckers well know) that they were for defence and never offence.

I had to attest that our agent in Tel Aviv would uphold this. (He was irreligious and scornful of their using fairy stories to oppress people anyway)

Don't say I make things up. I actually live in the world you fantasise over. Stick to your toy soldiers.

Michael. Two things;

I use posh words purely in order to impress you, nobody else. That I learned them whilst knowing my place meant I started using them whilst pushing a ferret down my trousers prior to taking a whippet for a walk.

They are missing the ox. Sturridge looks promising but needs to find the net having run into space, trapped the ball, dodged defenders and done the hard work.... Rooney looked fit but didn't influence play and Honduras were too cynical for our players to try and play. Not much point in getting cropped in a so called friendly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:26 AM

"Just lying propaganda for the consumption of gullible dupes."
All reports of Israeli atrocities have been reported by Human rights groups   such as Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International.
They have been condemned by Jewish organistions such Jews for Justice and have been compared to fascism by Jews themselves as far back as Einstein, through to Noam Chomski and the ex-leader of Mossad.
Describing all these as "lying propaganda" and "gullible" and making the outrageous suggestion that "Governments know better" is confirmation of your own fascism - it is a classical definition of fascism - the tying of the people's will to that of the state (Italy's bundle of sticks).
Mike has declined to comment on Jewish accusations of Einstein and co's comments on Israel, or on any similar Jewish statement - gullible propaganda - Antisemitism - what?
I'd go and watch the tennis with Tinkerbell if I were you - you've shown us what you're made of and added another paragraph to your CV.
Israel it a terrorist state that would have long ago been indicted for its crimes if it hadn't had the protection of US vetoes.
More Israeli "gullible Antisemites"

The massacre was a wild suspension of law and morality, and the interesting normative questions concern the scope and degree of responsibility. The killers entered the camps at the behest of Israeli officials who were certainly aware of Phalangist hostility towards
Palestinians -- Phalangists had previously massacred Palestinians when the Tel Az-Zater refugee camp was taken in 1976, and Bashir Gemayel had repeatedly described the Palestinians as "a people too many" in Lebanon. An Israeli commission of inquiry ridiculed the claim that a massacre was not forseen by Israeli officials, especially after Gemayel's assassination, and concluded that "indirect responsibility" rested on the shoulders of Sharon, Eitan, IDF commanders, Foreign Minister Yitsak Shamir, and Prime
Minister Begin. Presumably, the qualifier "indirect" was based on the assumption that Israeli soldiers did not actually do the killing. Yet, allowing the revenge-seeking Lebanese Forces into the camps under the fiction that they would clean out "terrorists" suggests complicity if not outright instigation. In other circumstances, those responsible -
- directly or indirectly -- would have been convicted of war crimes

Have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 08:33 AM

Article 2 of the Association Agreement between EU and israel states:

Relations between the Parties, as well as all the provisions of the Agreement itself, shall be based on respect for human rights and democratic principles, which guides their internal and international policy and constitutes an essential element of this Agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 08:30 AM

Support?
I said that your accusations of war crimes and atrocities are bollocks, as witness the complete absence of any condemnation by democratic governments.

No country gets blanket support and all get criticised over some policies, but atrocities and war crimes are never allowed to go unopposed.

No war crimes.
No atrocities.
Just lying propaganda for the consumption of gullible dupes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM

Where is your democratic support for Israel - we are not discussing condemnation - as MIke just pointed out "All Britain's relations with anyone are going to be to some extent 'political & business based'"
FRANCE
aAs with China
That's it then - no support anywhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 08:04 AM

Getting a bit lost in all the copy-pasted verbiage, Jim, to be honest. Still don't see how I have made any 'point' for you; or indeed what your 'point[s]' is/are: esp in re those wiki copy/pastes about UK judges issuing arrest warrants for supposed war crimes against visiting Israeli diplomats... I mean, what of it? What was that all about, in relation to the thread?

Thoroughly exercised & puzzled, I fear ···

Think I'll go & watch the tennis.*

Sorry.

~M~

*[BTW, Musk -- are you about? Last night's footie didn't turn out so 'cosy' after all, did it? -- wot with electric storms & 0-0 scoreline, & all!]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:50 AM

Musket.
In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment (invisible ink?) to Israel as we see it as a rogue state.

There are no such EU restrictions on Israel which is an associated state of the European Union.
You made it up Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:41 AM

Jim my case has been that no single democratic state has ever accused Israel of "atrocities" or "war crimes" and none of your ranting challenges that FACT!

Of course they are critical of and speak out against US, and Israeli policies as I have acknowledged they do, but never an accusation of atrocity or war crimes which if true would eclipse any such disagreement.

No war crimes.
No atrocities.
Just lying propaganda for the consumption of gullible dupes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:33 AM

Musket,
Western governments who use resolutions such as this to rein in rogue states. In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state.

I was not aware of that.
Please supply details and or your source.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:19 AM

"Jim: All Britain's relations with anyone are going to be to some extent 'political & business based' by their very nature, aren't they"
Thank you for making my point for me Mile
Keith has listed these countries and claimed support for Israel's policies because of their silence on Israel' atrocities - this and his denials of those atrocities are the only defence he has put forward
Jim Carroll

Norway and Israel Relations
Norway understands this terrifying crisis subjected to Palestine, foreseeing even more imminent disaster, Norway has taken steps to reassure aid and dissemination of the Neo-Nazi Israeli regime, to the point of demanding a return of tax revenues. Two months ago Norway demanded Israel return the palestinian tax revenues generated by the Palestinian economy. According to James Petras (2006) in The Power of Israel in the United States:

On January 25, 2006 the Palestinian people voted overwhelmingly in favor of Hamas in the cleanest election to take place in any Arab Middle Eastern country. The Israeli government immediately refused to recognize the democratic outcome. It refused to turn over Palestinian tax revenues, deliberately blocked all trading outlets to drastically reduce what was already Palestinian subsistence living, and began an intense and prolonged series of violent assaults on Palestinian cities and villages, killing and maiming hundreds.
In response to this evident crisis, Norway proceeded to a press releases urging Israel to return those tax revenues:
"This money belongs to the Palestinians. Israel just administers these funds on behalf of the Palestinian Authority according to an agreement. Withholding these funds undermines President Abbas and other Palestinian political forces that are pursuing a peaceful solution," said Mr Støre.
We are seeing the persistence of Israel's "Final Solution", Ehud Olmert stated after Hamas's democratic election: "I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza" (July 2, 2006), reinforced by Labor Party Minister Yitzak Rabin:
Israel will create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:13 AM

Jim: All Britain's relations with anyone are going to be to some extent 'political & business based' by their very nature, aren't they. Really can't see what point you think you've made with that copy/paste from Wiki about those silly attempts by the ill-disposed to arrest diplomats from a notionally diplomatically "friendly" foreign jurisdiction here on diplomatic missions. What the motivations of the judges perceiving possible prima facie grounds for prosecution may have been is much open to question, it seems to me.

So what was your point, precisely?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:06 AM

Keith
You have consistently included Ireland in your list of Israeli supporters, even though you have been given evidence to the contrary.
Alan Shatter, a Jewish member of the Irish Government who has just bene forced to resign, is the only Irish politician to have spoen in support of Israel
Jim Carroll
Ireland's real position on Israel
On 19 January 2010, Mahmoud al-Mabhouh a senior Hamas military commander was assassinated in Dubai by a team of eight suspected Mossad officers who used counterfeit European passports, including Irish passports.[10] The Irish government responded by expelling a staff member of the Israeli Embassy in Dublin.[11] Ireland subsequently delayed an EU-Israel agreement which would involve allowing Israel to access sensitive information on EU citizens, and demanded that Israel tighten its data protection laws.[12]

On 5 June 2010, an Irish humanitarian aid vessel MV Rachel Corrie heading for Gaza, was intercepted and seized by the Israeli Navy.[13] This caused political tension between Ireland and Israel.[14] [15]
On 25 January 2011, Ireland upgraded the Palestinian envoy in Ireland to that of a full embassy which resulted in the Irish Ambassador to Israel being summoned. Israel announced that it "regrets" the decision.[16]
On 4 November 2011, the Irish ship MV Saoirse carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza was intercepted by the Israeli Navy in international waters. The Navy boarded the ship, took those aboard in custody and towed it to Ashdod. In response, Irish Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore stated that the Irish government do "not agree with [the Gaza blockade], (...) regard it as contrary to international humanitarian law in its impact on the civilian population of Gaza, and (...) have repeatedly urged Israel to end a policy which is unjust, counter-productive and amounts to collective punishment of 1.5 million Palestinians."[17]
On 16 November 2011, unnamed sources from the Israeli Foreign Ministry claimed that "Ireland (is the) most hostile country in Europe" and was "pushing all of Europe's countries to a radical and uncompromising approach". An unnamed official argued that "the Irish government is feeding its people with anti-Israel hatred" and that "what we are seeing here is clear anti-Semitism." An official from the Irish Foreign Affairs Department announced that "the Government is critical of Israeli policies in the occupied Palestinian territories. It is not hostile to Israel and it is clearly wrong to suggest as much," he said. "The notion that this Government is or would be trying to stoke up anti-Israeli feeling is untrue. We are not hostile to Israel. We are critical of policies, particularly in the occupied Palestinian territories. These are not the same things".[18] Israel's ambassador to Ireland was reported as distancing himself from claims of Irish anti-Semitism.[19]
In early 2012 the Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign organised a "cultural boycott" of Israel, as a result of which Irish music group Dervish (band) cancelled a proposed tour of Israel, citing "an "avalanche of negativity" and "venom" directed towards them." [20] This online campaign was officially condemned by Irish Justice Minister Alan Shatter [21] and Irish Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore [22]
In 2013, Alan Shatter, minister of Justice, Equality and Defense said, while visiting Israel, that "Ireland is a friend of Israel. We have a government in Ireland that wants a deeper engagement. But we also have a government in Ireland that is committed to the peace process."[23]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:55 AM

What are my 'facile, lazy memes', please, Ian? I say nothing in excuse of Israel's entirely unacceptable bullying behaviour. My sole contribution has been objection, shared with the committee appointed by the Government of the Dominion of Canada et al, to the inappropriate & facile & peculiarly in context offensive use of the epithet "Nazi" in relation to Israel.

~M~

Always have to look up yet again to remind myself what this manufactured trendy pretentious cant word 'meme' is supposed to mean. Having done so, I am never much the wiser. Still, go on using it if you think it makes you sound sorta philosophical & in choon wiv da zeitgeist 'n' that innit

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:31 AM

Britain's relations with Israel are political and business based
Examples

"Arrest warrants[edit]
When he flew to England in 2005, retired Israeli general Doron Almog narrowly escaped arrest for war crimes after a UK Judge had issued a warrant in a British court, on the basis of the principle of universal jurisdiction. Almog was tipped off about the arrest and stayed on the plane until its return flight to Israel after 2 hours.[22] It was later revealed that the police failed to board the plane because they were denied permission by El Al, Israel's national airline, and feared an armed confrontation and the "international impact of a potentially armed police operation at an airport".[23]

In December 2009, an arrest warrant was issued for then leader of the opposition Tzipi Livni due to alleged war crimes committed during the 2008-09 Gaza War, when Livni was foreign minister.[24] These incidents strained relations between Israel and the United Kingdom, and Israel urged the UK to rethink its policies to prevent a further breakdown.[25] A few months earlier, former military chief Moshe Yaalon had called off a visit to Britain due to similar concerns.[26] Israeli defense minister Ehud Barak was also threatened with arrest, but the courts ruled that as a sitting minister he enjoyed diplomatic immunity.[27] British Foreign Secretary David Miliband announced that Britain would no longer tolerate legal harassment of Israeli officials in this fashion and arrest threats against visitors of Livni's stature would not happen again. To achieve this, British law would be reformed.[28] Israel's deputy foreign minister Danny Ayalon said that the risk of arrest was harming bilateral relations[29] but the law was not changed as promised. Israel halted the "special strategic dialogue" with Britain in protest.[30]

Legislation passed in 2011 under David Cameron's Conservative government altered the law, and required that the Director of Public Prosecutions give his consent to any private prosecution for war crimes under universal jurisdiction, to prevent politically motivated cases and to ensure that there was solid evidence. Justice Secretary Kenneth Clark explained that "the balance is struck between ensuring those who are accused of such heinous crimes do not escape justice and that universal jurisdiction cases are only proceeded with on the basis of solid evidence."[31] Livni arrived in the UK later that year in what was perceived to be a test case of the new legislation. The Crown Prosecution Service later revealed that it had received an application for an arrest warrant but no conclusion had been reached on whether there was sufficient evidence to support conviction. Foreign secretary William Hague then declared that Livni was on a "special mission," which granted her immunity from prosecution.[32] The "special mission" status was effective in protecting Livni in this case.[33]"
"It is all lies and propaganda "
Sure it is
"Governments know better."
Oh - for **** sake - the same governments who carried out an illegal war and gave us decades of body bags from Iraq and Afghanistan
This quote is classic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:09 AM

From this debate you can see how Israel frustrates and embarrasses Western governments and especially educated reasonable people therein.

Don't forget, the facile lazy memes that the likes of Keith, Michael , Poo Bad etc are coming out with are nothing to the propaganda intelligent people with polarised views can manage.

I too have spent time in Israel. I too see happy smiling faces on the beach. But I saw hypocrisy by the, to be fair, scared members of the general public and a deep ingrained belief that Palestinians shouldn't be given a single inch. I saw men with goldilocks hairstyles nodding and telling people to bulldozer Arab settlements. (My business interests took me to such places sadly) and I saw rational people having to observe their Sabbath or face victimisation and worse.

That was mid ' 90s. I see nothing to suggest they are any further in trying to live with neighbours and I see no attempt to comply with UN resolutions we demand they follow.

That's we. Western governments who use resolutions such as this to rein in rogue states. In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state.

Your move.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:47 AM

NO NATION HAS EVER OPENLY SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ATROCITIES OR WAR CRIMES AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED - WHERE HAVE THEY
SILENCE FROM POLITICIANS IS NOT SUPPORT OR EVIDENCE OF INNOCENCE,

You are right.
They have not even criticised it as they have China's internal repression.
That is because there are no atrocities or war crimes to either support or condemn Jim.
They do criticise over the settlers, which would be trivial in comparison if such things were true.

It is all lies and propaganda for the consumption of gullible dupes like you.
Governments know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:37 AM

So go on bleating it then, Jim; and I shall go on indicating what it proves you, in the judgment of at least two competent authorities appointed to judge specifically on this very question, the Government of the Dominion of Canada and the EUMC, to be.

If you go on saying "Nazi" then you are, in their terms, 'antisemitic'. So are all & any of these celebs & notables you adduce if they do so, Jewish or not. It is perfectly possible to be against Israel in its present form without resorting to such officially-designated antisemitic name-calling ~~ I am and I don't. If you don't want to be thought so, stop doing it. If you won't stop, then you are being, little as you like the idea, demonstrably and manifestly, an antisemite. So stop doing it, or live with the designation; and please do not trouble yourself to tell me again that I mustn't 'dare' to call you so.

Up to you...

Best regards as ever

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM

To prove the point, those countries DO criticise Israel over its settlers.
If Israel was guilty of all those heinous crimes, the settlers would not merit a mention.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM

"he nevertheless goes on incessantly bleating "Nazi",
Until you deal with the facts that others, including Jews, are saying the same thing and have done so since the birth of Israel, you are dishonestly avoiding the fact that there is some validity in the accusation - you have added dishonest along with hypocrisy to your CV.
You claim to have responded to all points put to you - do you consider the Mossad man, Noam Chomski, Eisenstein and all the Jews who signed his letter "Antisemites" for making the same comparisons?   
"If they really believed Israel guilty of heinous crimes they would say so and act accordingly."
Ho hum
China committed "heinous crimes" - these countries have "warm friendly relations with her.
CONSERVATIVES RELATIONS WITH CHINA
You have claimed "support for Israel - there is none anywhere - you invented it.
You have yet to even mention the mountain of criticism by these nations on Israel's behaviour - before you claim there is none, you have been given it.
It doesn't matter anyway - if Britain can trade with the Assad family and consider it a friend and close ally for as long as it did, knowing full well the atrocities and murders taking place there, it will trad with any murderous, human tights abusing regime.
2009
Your defence of Israel has now entered the realms of high farce
NO NATION HAS EVER OPENLY SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ATROCITIES OR WAR CRIMES AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED - WHERE HAVE THEY
SILENCE FROM POLITICIANS IS NOT SUPPORT OR EVIDENCE OF INNOCENCE,
Human rights groups throughout the world have condemned Israel as a possible war criminal.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 03:36 AM

It simply means that powerful and rather undemocratic pro-Israel lobbies, especially in the US (and it rubs off on every UK prime minister I can think of) make it impossible for governments to speak out.

That does not stand up Steve.
Countries like Ireland, Sweden, France, Australia, Canada, etc. do speak out against US policy all the time.
If they really believed Israel guilty of heinous crimes they would say so and act accordingly.
The FACT is they do not.

Well, in terms of what I perceive to be outrageous human rights abuses, I could (but won't) bemoan the amount of defence Israel gets here

That ignores the FACT that a huge number of countries with a far worse record of human rights abuse are NEVER criticised by all you Israel bashers.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 03:10 AM

'I don't give a flying fart if you call it "hateful"'
.,,.
Oh, for crying out loud, stop being so disingenuous and aggressive, Steve. Why should I, or anyone, give a flying unowot either what the gr8 Mr S Shaw gives? Who Shaw? What his authority in the matter? I take my authority in the matter from those who know a fair sight better than jumped-up self-opinionated him: ie the Canadian Government citing the EUMC, the professionals appointed by the authority of the nations of Europe to judge of the question.

Now, Jim knows all this, thank you v much just the same Mr S; and if he nevertheless goes on incessantly bleating "Nazi", then he knows he is deliberately falling foul of these declarations and judgements, and thus incurring the terrible risk of being denounced by me as 'antisemitic'; which is what he chooses to go on doing & being, so obviously he can live with it.

Do you think he welcomes the long proboscis of Mr Shaw S being poked in for his defence because he must be too helpless to look after himself? How patronising. He doesn't seem to be unduly fazed and lives with it, so what put-in of yours then, eh, Mr Prodnose Shaw?

So how about you just butt out!

Best regards as ever

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:35 PM

Frederik Willem de Klerk, former President of South Africa (1989-1994) and Nobel Peace Prize laureate in 1993: "It is unfair to call Israel an Apartheid state".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u-NeH0FHq0

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:52 PM

I don't normally bother with such things, but just thought I'd mention that Linda Todd, as anyone can read in her blogs, is a blatant propagandist for the Israeli regime. Nowt wrong with that, one supposes, except that the boobad-minnow refrained from mentioning that his source is, er, slightly less than unbiased, to put it mildly. Do google her, chaps and chapesses, and find out for yourself what a useless bloody fraud bobad truly is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:44 PM

Sure. And where did you copy and paste that from?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:28 PM

About Linda Todd
A Canadian girl with a decidedly unCanadian experience, Linda is a seeker of truth and enlightenment. Formerly married to a Palestinian journalist from Gaza, she lived there and told their story well… until she visited Israel and confirmed her suspicion that she had been exposed to way too much propaganda. As Linda continues to seek truth and enlightenment, she now tells a very different story….one that shows Israel for who she really is – a place of warmth and hospitality….and freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM

Finally Awake: From Pro Palestinian Activist To Staunch Israel Supporter

Posted by: Linda Todd June 1, 2014      

"While in Israel, I made a point of observing as many aspects of life as I could. With so much talk of "apartheid", I purposely looked for signs of this, and instead, noticed how casually people mixed together as they went about their daily lives.

My friends showed me their Israel – no hype, no propaganda, just real life.

I will never be the same.

Now I have to speak truth against the lies I know are being told. I have seen two sides, Gaza and Israel, and have no choice but to share my stories and observations in the hopes of waking others up who have believed the lies just as I did.

I am so happy and grateful to finally be awake!"

Israellycool

Why, yet another bobad-minnow post that does a big quote from somewhere-or-other but which does not contain the slightest input from yer man (or woman - how would I know...) himself. Typical. Just for variety, minnow, go on now, give us one of your Islamophobic one-liners.

Lazy git.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:04 PM

But if you think that this pertinacious use of "Nazi" on Jim's part is not 'hateful' or 'antisemitic', don't attack me. He is asking for such denunciations

No he is not. I don't give a flying fart if you call it hateful. I don't, as it happens. I call it rather too passionate a form of words for my taste and you won't catch me calling Israelis "Nazis" (not because I'm trying to be politically correct, rather that I don't think it), but hateful it isn't, in my book. In my book. But antisemitic it certainly is not. Antisemitism is an attack on Jewish people because they are Jewish people. That is simply not happening in this thread. If you really want to put that construction on it, then you'd better start examining your own prejudices. Start to be a little more honest about this. Perhaps view it from from a little more distance than you are currently doing. If you think Jim is a mortal threat to Judaism, then I'm severely wrong in thinking I've heard the last cuckoo this spring.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:33 PM

Anecdotal "evidence" isn't, Boo.

My friends showed me their Israel

Yup - the Israel they WANTED her to see, and she WANTED to find.

Now, let's try for an unbiased observer......

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:35 PM

I don't deny many of your animadversions against Israel. Steve. They really are a grave disappointment to my generation of Jews. That bellicose, expansionist, bullying, spiteful regime is not what we dedicated all that youthful energy to create.

But if you think that this pertinacious use of "Nazi" on Jim's part is not 'hateful' or 'antisemitic', don't attack me. He is asking for such denunciations by persisting in using this term while fully aware of its declared status as such, as a "special-mention" example, in the Ottawa Protocol republication of the 2005 EUMC Report. So get off my back, please, & take the matter up with the Government of the Dominion of Canada.

Thank you

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:32 PM

Finally Awake: From Pro Palestinian Activist To Staunch Israel Supporter

Posted by: Linda Todd June 1, 2014        

"While in Israel, I made a point of observing as many aspects of life as I could. With so much talk of "apartheid", I purposely looked for signs of this, and instead, noticed how casually people mixed together as they went about their daily lives.

My friends showed me their Israel – no hype, no propaganda, just real life.

I will never be the same.

Now I have to speak truth against the lies I know are being told. I have seen two sides, Gaza and Israel, and have no choice but to share my stories and observations in the hopes of waking others up who have believed the lies just as I did.

I am so happy and grateful to finally be awake!"

Israellycool

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:50 PM

Many governments castigated China over Tiananmen, but no decent ones accuse Israel of war crimes.

That does not mean that "war crimes" (or, better put, crimes against humanity) don't happen. It simply means that powerful and rather undemocratic pro-Israel lobbies, especially in the US (and it rubs off on every UK prime minister I can think of) make it impossible for governments to speak out. It's simple really. Any senator, congressman or US president who speaks against Israel is toast. It's quite noticeable that the yanks on this forum are loath to mention AIPAC by name (or acronym). Can you remember an example? Open your eyes, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:43 PM

In case you did not read fully read the sources, you should know that that are not my my definition, but that of much of the first world community. And while it is true that this is a thread about Israel, it is also a thread about Palestine...and much more favorable to the latter, which is okay when done fairly.

I have been a a 'Catter for about 15 years. I currently have 'traced' six treads on Israel/Palestine. I found five others that have been here, and I remember a couple of them I cannot find. One was titled "Atrocities Other Than Israel," and it only took four posts for it to become largely about...Israel.

I defy you to find anywhere near twelve threads about any other country, from Somalia to Russia, or from North Korea to Iraq, at Mudcat. There are some threads about truly bad actors, far worse than Israel is purported to be, on the world stage...but for the most part they are discussed maybe for a few days and forgotten, although they are still ongoing in their actions.

At Mudcat, no other country, no matter their actions, has been said to have forfeited the right to exist...Israel has, and just by coincidence it is a Jewish homeland. No other nation has been dismissed as a theocracy (and virtually all Muslim countries are), but Israel is a Jewish theocracy, although it isn't. So don't tell me that criticism, here, of Israel is not often criticism of Jews. That no longer passes the smell test.

So, Steve, if I'm a 'twit,' as you have nothing relevant to say about me or the post, I plead guilty, and endorse the text of the 'twits' who have signed the Ottawa Protocol.

Keith-like indeed, as Musket says. I have always had plenty of substance to say on this topic, but, as I've told Keith, no-one sets my agenda on a free-for-all forum. Don't be too disappointed if I have "nothing relevant to say about you or the post". I'm not here to feed your ego, thanks. You bemoan the criticism that Israel gets here. Well, in terms of what I perceive to be outrageous human rights abuses, I could (but won't) bemoan the amount of defence Israel gets here. When you consider that us folkies tend, in general, to empathise with common humanity a bit more than, say, the average Tory or Republican, for whom self-interest is the keynote, it's almost surprising that Israel gets any sympathy at all. But, you see, the reason that this issue inflames passions, and the reason why Israel seems to you to get all the flak, is that the actions of bellicose Israeli regime after regime down the decades have actually been, and still are, the greatest threat to world peace that exists today. Israel worries the yanks far more than "Islamist terrorists" do (just look at the money they throw at that tiny nation), and the two are hardly unconnected in terms of cause and effect, but they can't do a thing about it because of the pro-Israel lobby and the US media who feed the people precisely half the story of what goes on in the Middle East. You are are clearly a victim of that partiality. Willing, by the sound of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:20 PM

"unless unwarranted hateful words are used."·····

But that is exactly what Jim, in particular, is constantly doing. Count his uses of "Nazi" -- the very 'hateful word' in relation to Israel which JohnSunCo's cited declaration, not from any obscure quango but from the elected government of a leading western nation, devotes a separate paragraph to specifying as 'hateful'. And then poor old persecuted Jim gets all touchy & hoity and full-of-hate and denouncing us all as 'squalid' when called on it.

Who's the "twit"!?

You are, for deliberately and mischievously conflating "hateful" with "antisemitic". You have committed a grievous logical error by so doing. For the record, I do no such thing: I've distanced myself from Jim's occasional forms of words (which can be a bit too passionate for me, though not "hateful", in my view) whilst clearly discerning that they do not amount to antisemitism. Remove the fog of Islamophobia from before your eyes and you'll discern the same thing. Only you probably don't really want to, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:32 PM

Many governments castigated China over Tiananmen, but no decent ones accuse Israel of war crimes.

Israel is still a tiny sliver of land surrounded by vast Arab lands, and has had to fight them off repeatedly, so "aggressive" and "expansionist" are ludicrous lies.

You have to make shit up if you want to criticise them, and you always want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 11:45 AM

"It started tiny and is still tiny."
Go look at the maps - spreading like cholera
You are the only person dishing out propaganda - denial of facts, all your own work
Tienanmen Square lovers wouldn't trade with Israel - that really has made my week!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:57 AM

Israel's role is one of an expansionist aggressor

It is not very good at it then!
It started tiny and is still tiny.
You should look at a map and ignore the propaganda Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:12 AM

"Now, can you honestly say that Islamic teachings have no political or forensic influence in Yemen, Saudi, Brunei, N Nigeria, Malaysia, Sudan, Somalia (cont p 94)?"
Of course they have, just as Christian teaching has an effect in Ireland, Spain, France, Italy - and everywhere that calls itself a Christian/Catholic country - and that effect can be just as align as Muslim extremism when it as allowed to be.
It is disingenuous to claim Israel is not a religious state - in theory maybe, but the Zionist right have made religion a major feature in its development.
In the end, religion is immaterial anyway - the setting up of a mono-religious/cultural state in the manner that is taking place is the threat, and would be, no matter what religion was involved.
Israel's role is one of an expansionist aggressor - nuclear capability is the icing on the cake.
If I am being "silly", you are being evasive.
A nuclear power behaving as Israel is just as, if not far more dangerous as Islamism.
The Muslim communities in Britain have more than proved they are capable of avoiding the extremes of their religion, otherwise the streets would have been awash with Powell's "Rivers of Blood" long before now.
These tried and trusted law-abiding people are the ones you would throw back into the arms of the Islamic extremists, making them bitter and resentful enemies (not without reason) rather than the friends and good citizens they have proven to be - all to feed your own personal bigotry.
I wonder what the final count would have been if those fleeing the rise of Nazism in Germany had been given the same welcome you are offering Muslims
Doesn't bear thinking about - so you obviously haven't bothered.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:11 AM

Well, ~M~, I blame it on the Commies a.k.a. "The Red Menace".

Or maybe "The Yellow Peril".

They used to be the stock bogey-men that scared the shit out of a certain type of folk, but they've been falling down on the job of late.

Someone had to fill that void for those who simply can't be happy without some apocolyptic shibboleth to be constantly in terror of. Hence "The Muslim Peril" and its attendant psychopathology.

In time, they'll be replaced by another phantasm, which I'm sure will scare the crap out of you just as well.

Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:57 AM

Couldn't Greg; because I don't have any "phobia", I have a rationally-based fear of the inevitable consequences of failing to confront a manifest peril. If you can't see it, then

AINTOS*

you'll learn


*As I Never Tire Of Saying

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:52 AM

Israel, tho maybe nuclear-capable, is not a religious state, even if it was established by Jews as somewhere for other Jews to go. It was an ethnic, not a religious, movement that established the kibbutz system on which the achievement of statehood was based. Free love applied in the kibbutzim, not Talmudic law. Have you read Koestler's 'Thieves In The Night'? For all its faults, it's a book worth reading. And Talmudic or rabbinic influence haven't much political clout there: the Sabbath laws are a bit of a pain in the arse to most people, but apart from no buses running they don't have much effect on anyone who doesn't want to be affected.

Now, can you honestly say that Islamic teachings have no political or forensic influence in Yemen, Saudi, Brunei, N Nigeria, Malaysia, Sudan, Somalia (cont p 94)?

For gods sake grow up, Jim & stop being so silly, and relying on such leaky at every orifice debating points. It's beneath you.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:46 AM

Islamism scares me to death. Terrifies me.

Have you considered therapy for your phobia? It could help, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:36 AM

"Islamism scares me to death."
All militant religion scares me to death - especially those with nuclear capability.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:27 AM

... and I've never been in any bloody closet regarding the matter, you offensive little turd. I don't DO bloody closets. You know that: but you're the one who is the hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:24 AM

Will you get into your stupid mind-made-up thick idiotic head ~~ they are NOT "hate-filled": they are FEAR-filled.   Islamism scares me to death. Terrifies me. If it doesn't you too after all that has happened these last 15 years, that is because you are a doctrinaire self-blinding head·in·sand bloody fool.

AINTOS -
You'll learn

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:16 AM

I'm sure you will make much of my typo - your kind always do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:14 AM

As you point out, I once refrained from expressing my belief that the behaviour of Israel was an echo of that of their persecutors - I pointed out at the time that I would do so out of respect for your feelings, not because I had ceased to believe the validity of the comparison - your out-of-the-closet, hate filled rantings have made my self-censorship unnecessary, as far as I am concerned.
Rant away - it suits you and your kind
Jim Cattoll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:30 AM

No reply required. You have perfectly adequately "placed" yourself, Mr Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:08 AM

Yah, yah, yah - sucks to you too!!
Hypocritical prick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:53 AM

Oh, for gods sake shut up about your bloody 'lipservice'. How do you purport to read my mind or judge my sincerity, you impertinent jumped-up self-opinionated little knowall smartarse. I think your fatuous lefty PC views are nothing but an infinite series of 'lipservice', for the matter of that.

I have objected explicitly to the expansionism, the destruction, the spiteful & deliberate taking away of people's livelihoods (& you go on persisting that those olive groves were nothing to fuss about although they were all that so many decent hardworking ordinary folk had to subsist on & keep their children)... I have taken it as read that I will obviously regard Sabra-Shatila as outrageously disgusting. If I haven't said so before, it's because I haven't considered it even needed saying. So, there you are. I've said it now. I denounce it. I doubledoubledouble denounce it. In spades. Happy now? I have never objected to the use of 'apartheid', or even 'fascist', or 'ethnic cleansing'. But, no, I don't like Nazi. "Neither do I," you assert selfrighteously. Then stop saying it, you perverse contrary idiot, and I'll stop calling you out on it.

And what, precisely, do you suggest that I "do about it" from here, other than go on denouncing it and emphasise that the whole boiling of stinking Israel is the greatest disappointment of my entire life? Go out there & kick Netanyahu in the bollocks? Or what, fatgob!

And you cannot deny that you did once promise to desist from "Nazi"-ing. & have gone back on, and broken, that promise. People who break promises are not generally trusted — or particularly highly regarded, you know...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:29 AM

"[repeat nineteen forty-eight, 66 years ago"
Exactly - within five years of the events he was referring to when he suggested the possibilities of Israel echoing those events - sixty odd years later a leading figure in Israeli security, one who was complicit in some of the atrocities, an Israeli patriot, would say that this was what Israel had become.
You have never had the bottle to actually address Irraeli atrocities Mike - you have only ever paid lip-service to them.
You are outraged at my/Einstein's/the Mossad man's comparison, yet you pass over Israel's continuing aggression with a vague nod of disapproval -otherwise, total silence
The only reference I can remember your ever making to Sabra/Shatila is one of your sneers at my bringing it up.
The only 'defence' of Israeli actions here is Keith's moronic claim that Israel must be OK because Western politicians have "warm and friendly relations" with her, as they do with the perpetrators of the Tienanmen Square massacre - everything else is silence or denial.
The rest of you have settled for outrage on my using a comparison that many other peple are making, including Jews.
The Jewish people deserve far more than this sort of hypocrisy.
How dare you bunch of turds implicate the Jewish people in the militarist, religion driven aggression that is taking place in the Middle East today
Another 1500 homes on the West Bank were announced yesterday in response to the Palestinian decision to unite the two disputing groups - that unification has been welcomed by the west as bringing about a possibility of peace - Israel's lethally spiteful opposition makes the possibility of peace even more remote.
Attributing Israel's actions to the Jewish people debase them in their entirety.
It is now common to hear Israel's aggressive expansionism described as fascist or apartheid or ethnic cleansing.
Einstein warned against this happening sixty odd years ago, today, Jewish intellectuals like Noam Chomski are talking in terms of "State Terrorism" and "political and economic fascism".
Throughout the world, politicians and human rights groups are openly describing what is happening in the Middle East as "ethnic cleansing" and "Apartheid".
Throughout the world Jews are organising themselves into groups in order to express their opposition to the behaviour of the Israeli regime - many are making the same comparisons.
The first time I ever heard the term "Jewish Fascism" was from a Jewish friend, we were in a relationship at the time and it was the first serious argument between us.
I remember it clearly because it was just after we had both come out of a Manchester cinema in tears, having sat though the horrors of the documentary epic 'Shoah'.
She expressed her misgivings of what was happening in Israel, even back then; I was horrified that someone coming from a family of holocaust survivors should make such a comparison and reacted badly.
You don't like Israel being compared to the Nazis - neither do I.
Do something about it other than whine about the comparison, or learn to live with it.
Do not attempt to implicate the Jewish people as a whole with the actions of Israels militaristic and political extremist thugs - it is as bad as blaming the Muslim people for the extremist behaviour of Islamist fanatics, which you all make a habit of doing anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:08 AM

"I defy you..."   Bloody hell, we appear to have a Keith wannabe on the sunset coast!

Michael. You point out that you are teetotal and I point out I have a humongous cock. Neither are relevant to the thread yet both are put forward for consideration by others.

Both represent the more objective statements on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:21 AM

... and it's no good his constantly ref'ing a declaration by Einstein & some other Jews from 1948 [repeat nineteen forty-eight, 66 years ago], in which they use the word in re a particular party in contention for power in new Israel. At that time, actual Nazism was so recent as to be a meaningful concept as a debating counter. Now it has just become an abusive boo-word, which is how Jim will constantly use it, in deliberate & flagrant contradiction of the Ottawa protocol's citation of the EUMC report.

The pity is that the policies of that party have ultimately gained the upper hand in Israel -- but that is a separate consideration which does not, by any means or in any way, warrant or justify Jim's constant iteration of this 'hateful' term.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 12:59 AM

"unless unwarranted hateful words are used."·····

But that is exactly what Jim, in particular, is constantly doing. Count his uses of "Nazi" -- the very 'hateful word' in relation to Israel which JohnSunCo's cited declaration, not from any obscure quango but from the elected government of a leading western nation, devotes a separate paragraph to specifying as 'hateful'. And then poor old persecuted Jim gets all touchy & hoity and full-of-hate and denouncing us all as 'squalid' when called on it.

Who's the "twit"!?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 12:16 AM

In case you did not read fully read the sources, you should know that that are not my my definition, but that of much of the first world community. And while it is true that this is a thread about Israel, it is also a thread about Palestine...and much more favorable to the latter, which is okay when done fairly.

I have been a a 'Catter for about 15 years. I currently have 'traced' six treads on Israel/Palestine. I found five others that have been here, and I remember a couple of them I cannot find. One was titled "Atrocities Other Than Israel," and it only took four posts for it to become largely about...Israel.

I defy you to find anywhere near twelve threads about any other country, from Somalia to Russia, or from North Korea to Iraq, at Mudcat. There are some threads about truly bad actors, far worse than Israel is purported to be, on the world stage...but for the most part they are discussed maybe for a few days and forgotten, although they are still ongoing in their actions.

At Mudcat, no other country, no matter their actions, has been said to have forfeited the right to exist...Israel has, and just by coincidence it is a Jewish homeland. No other nation has been dismissed as a theocracy (and virtually all Muslim countries are), but Israel is a Jewish theocracy, although it isn't. So don't tell me that criticism, here, of Israel is not often criticism of Jews. That no longer passes the smell test.

So, Steve, if I'm a 'twit,' as you have nothing relevant to say about me or the post, I plead guilty, and endorse the text of the 'twits' who have signed the Ottawa Protocol.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 08:33 PM

Let it be clear: Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, and saying so is wrong. ***But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction – is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.****

Let it be clear: singling out Israel in a thread that is about Israel is not discriminatory, you twit. And it is not hateful either, unless unwarranted hateful words are used. Let's be even clearer. You are doing the typical Bibi thang of coming the victim, in order to divert attention away from the outrages perpetrated by the Israeli regime that it is perfectly justifiable to focus on and examine critically. The dishonesty is entirely in your court.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:52 PM

"Now piss of - the squalid gang of you."

Is that from a traditional folk song?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:51 PM

The accusation, Jim, is only in relation to your insisting on using the term Nazi, specifically mentioned by EUMC/FRA, as john-sunset-coast's full extract from proceedings of the Canadian Govt confirms, as an antisemitic usage. The fact that it might have been used long before that, in 1948 in a letter from Einstein et al much preceding that declaration, is surely little to the point at this time of day. You have previously agreed to desist from that practice, having been convinced of its objectionable effects, and of its having been thus specified. So why have you reverted to it, except for bloody-minded contrariness, and an apparent wish to appear antisemitic as there declared, so yah-sucks-boo to the whole squalid crew of us?

Sorry, Jim; but in this one particular it is you who are behaving 'squalidly'. Why not just drop these persistent offensive refs to "nazi", as I remind you yet again you agreed to do once before but have now gone back on? It is the only thing you are doing that even suggests antisemitism; but it isn't only 'squalid' us who think it mars the whole of your arguments by laying them open explicitly to that accusation.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:40 PM

So you can not find a single example of a democratic government that accuses Israel of any of those things.
That is because it is bollocks Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:35 PM

"Sweden, Ireland, France, Canada, Australia,......"
Not a single quote of support, just the hypocritical silence of hypocritical politicians
United nations - "bigoted lies"
Human Rights Watch - silence
Amnesty International - silence
Haaretz articles - silence
Jews For Justice - silence
Indepenent reports - silence
Photographs of victims of phosphorus attacks om schools - first denials, then silence
Examples of dwindling support by nations once supporting Israel-silence.
And so ad infinitum
Tienanmen Square - first, a special case, then silence
I asked for actual examples of support for Israel - you have been unable to supply a single one
I think we're finished here, don't you?
"But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium..."
Nobody has ever done that, what we have done is recognised Israel as a religion driven terrorist state with expansionist aims and nuclear capability as the greatest threat to mankind today.
Those who refuse to recognise that while at the same time give blanket support to Israel's terrorist behaviour, and react to any criticism as "Antisemitic", are part of that threat.
You lied - you said I opposed the existence of the State of Israel - I asked for examples of this - you have provided none
You people seem incapable of constructing an honest sentence.
I have no idea of how old you are, but my family were supporting the rights of Jews and the Anti-Semites, in the North of England probably before you were born.
Members of my family did time for their actions against Mosely's Blackshirts on the streets of Liverpool and in the East End of London.
My father, when he saw what was happening in pre-war Europe, went off to Spain, where he was wounded and imprisoned - he returned to Merrie England to find himself with a police record as a "premature anti-fascist"
Many of those who fought with him were Jews
All of my family supported the setting up of the State of Israel - all of them were appalled when they witnessed it it fall into the hands of Zionist fascists.
Please feel free to stick your filthy accusations of "Anti Semitism as far up your lying hole as they will go.
If you have any defence for Sabra?Shatila, chemical and heavy artilary warfare against civilians, ghettoisation, state apartheid, the ethnic cleansing of nomads in order to create a a mono religious state.... feel free to offer that as well - so far, the only excuse has been denial.
Now piss of - the squalid gang of you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:57 PM

BTW Jim, Tiananmen Square was denounced, particularly by Western governments and media.[2] Criticism came from both Western and Eastern Europe, North America, Australia and some east Asian and Latin American countries. Notably, many Asian countries remained silent throughout the protests;

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:27 PM

"Let it be clear: Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, and saying so is wrong. ***But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction – is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.****
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM

Normally I would not past a whole piece onto this site. But I do so in this case so that 1) it can't be said to have been taken out of context, and 2) to show it is not just at the boogy-man site, Wikipedia. No changes have been made except for the addition of the date in [ ], and highlighting points within ****.

As I wrote here or even in other threads, if you argue using antiSemitic terms, what are we to think about you.

------

The Ottawa Protocol on Combating Antisemitism [2011]

Preamble

We, Representatives of our respective Parliaments from across the world, convening in Ottawa for the second Conference and Summit of the Inter-parliamentary Coalition for Combating Antisemitism, note and reaffirm the London Declaration on Combating Antisemitism as a template document for the fight against antisemitism.

We are concerned that, since the London Conference in February 2009, there continues to be a dramatic increase in recorded antisemitic hate crimes and attacks targeting Jewish persons and property, and Jewish religious, educational and communal institutions.

We remain alarmed by ongoing state-sanctioned genocidal antisemitism and related extremist ideologies. If antisemitism is the most enduring of hatreds, and genocide is the most horrific of crimes, then the convergence of the genocidal intent embodied in antisemitic ideology is the most toxic of combinations.

We are appalled by the resurgence of the classic anti-Jewish libels, including:

-       The Blood Libel (that Jews use the blood of children for ritual sacrifice)

-       The Jews as "Poisoners of the Wells" – responsible for all evils in the world

-       The myth of the "new Protocols of the Elders of Zion" – the tsarist forgery that proclaimed an international Jewish conspiracy bent on world domination – and accuses the Jews of controlling government, the economy, media and public institutions.

- ****The double entendre of denying the Holocaust – accusing the Jews of fabricating the Holocaust as a hoax – and the nazification of the Jew and the Jewish people.****

We are alarmed by the explosion of antisemitism and hate on the Internet, a medium crucial for the promotion and protection of freedom of expression, freedom of information, and the participation of civil society.

We are concerned over the failure of most OSCE participating states to fully implement provisions of the 2004 Berlin Declaration, including the commitment to:

"Collect and maintain reliable information and statistics about antisemitic crimes, and other hate crimes, committed within their territory, report such information periodically to the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR), and make this information available to the public."

We are concerned by the reported incidents of antisemitism on campuses, such as acts of violence, verbal abuse, rank intolerance, and assaults on those committed to free inquiry, while undermining fundamental academic values.

We renew our call for national Governments, Parliaments, international institutions, political and civic leaders, NGOs, and civil society to affirm democratic and human values, build societies based on respect and citizenship and combat any manifestations of antisemitism and all forms of discrimination.

We reaffirm the EUMC – now Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA) – working definition of antisemitism, which sets forth that:

"Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

    Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
    Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective – such as, especially but not exclusively – the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy, or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
    Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group,**** or even for acts committed by non-Jews.****
    Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
    Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
    Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

****Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.****

****Applying double standards by requiring of it behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.****
    Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

****Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.****
    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

However, criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.

Let it be clear: Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, and saying so is wrong. ***But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction – is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.****

Members of Parliament meeting in Ottawa commit to:

    Calling on our Governments to uphold international commitments on combating antisemitism – such as the OSCE Berlin Principles – and to engage with the United Nations for that purpose. In the words of former U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, "It is […] rightly said that the United Nations emerged from the ashes of the Holocaust. And a Human Rights agenda that fails to address antisemitism denies its own history";
    Calling on Parliaments and Governments to adopt the EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism and anchor its enforcement in existing law;
    Encouraging countries throughout the world to establish mechanisms for reporting and monitoring on domestic and international antisemitism, along the lines of the "Combating Antisemitism Act of 2010" recently introduced in the United States Congress;
    Encouraging the leaders of all religious faiths – represented also at this Conference – to use all means possible to combat antisemitism and all forms of hatred and discrimination;
    Calling on the Parliamentary Forum of the Community of Democracies to make the combating of hatred and antisemitism a priority in their work;
    Calling on Governments and Parliamentarians to reaffirm and implement the Genocide Convention, recognising that where there is incitement to genocide, State parties have an obligation to act;
    Working with universities to encourage them to combat antisemitism with the same seriousness with which they confront other forms of hate. Specifically, universities should be invited to define antisemitism clearly, provide specific examples, and enforce conduct codes firmly, while ensuring compliance with freedom of speech and the principle of academic freedom. Universities should use the EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism as a basis for education, training and orientation. Indeed, there should be zero tolerance for discrimination of any kind against anyone in the university community on the basis of race, gender, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation or political position;
    We encourage the European Union to promote civic education and open society in its European Neighbourhood Policy (ENP) and to link funding to democratic development and respect for Human Rights in ENP partner countries;
    Establishing an International Task Force of Internet specialists comprised of parliamentarians and experts to create common indicators to identify and monitor antisemitism and other manifestations of hate online and to develop policy recommendations for Governments and international frameworks to address these problems;
    Building on the African representation at this Conference, to develop increased working relationships with parliamentarians in Africa for the combating of racism and antisemitism;
    We urge the incoming OSCE Chair, Lithuania, to make implementation of these commitments a priority during 2011 and call for the reappointment of the Special Representatives to assist in this work.

http://www.antisem.org/archive/ottawa-protocol-on-combating-antisemitism/
plus
http://www.european-forum-on-antisemitism.org/working-definition-of-antisemitism/english/
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/fs/2010/122352.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM

"I wish to compare it to Andrex. Sometimes, only the best will do when you wish to wipe your arse."

.,,.
Ah, yes; true to form! -- An argument based on shit from a contemptible little* vulgarian ~~

~M~

*even if he does regard as his main claim to fame his humungous dong!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:10 AM

unless you can provide specific examples, your support for Israel is entirely of your own invention.

I did.
Sweden, Ireland, France, Canada, Australia,......

Trade of course, but also cultural links and diplomatic ties.
Can you produce one democratic government statement that accuses Israel of any crime?
No, or you would have already done so.
They know it is all bollocks for the consumption of naive dupes like you and not informed intelligent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:34 AM

Grave misuse of brackets there. Grr.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:31 AM

'Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:.....

       Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.'

This is just utter rubbish and I don't care who said it. Antisemitism is racial prejudice directed at Jews. The term cannot be levelled, no matter how much Bibi and Michael and bobad and Keith might wish it, against a state. For a start, antisemitism goes back thousands of years before there was a state of Israel. Second, the state of Israel contains millions of people who are not Jews. In fact, one day soon, ethnic Jews may even form a minority of the population. Perhaps Israel may wish to put itself in prejudicial harm's way by characterising itself as a Jewish state, but what it can't do is make itself into a state exclusively populated by Jews.

I fully understand why millions of Israelis would be offended by comparisons between current Israeli-regime actions and the Nazis, and, for that reason, I think it's very unhelpful and wrong-headed so to do. I'm revolted by the mistreatment of Palestinians and the land thefts, but I do want to see peace one fine day. Highlighting the undeniably outrageous and inhumane acts perpetrated by the Israeli regime by describing them in factual terms is enough. I also think it's best to describe the actions as "by the Israeli regime" or "by the Israeli military" rather than "by Israel" (though, apart from courting the usual brainless accusations of antisemitism from Bibi and at least three people here) there isn't much wrong with that shorthand. What is never right is to refer to "the Jewish lobby" (inaccurate) or "outrages perpetrated by the Jews". Even if it is mostly Jewish people who carry out the actions we are referring to, they may not be practising Jews and they may not be carrying out actions in the name of the Jewish belief system. Most people who claim to be oppressing or killing others in the name of their religion are, in fact, acting against the tenets of their religion. What a pity we feel so free to not apply the same standard to actions carried out by people of the Islamic belief system - but we don't, do we?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:04 AM

"Yes I have."
No you have not - you have claimed support - you have none
You have been given examples of the regimes have "warm and friendly regimes" - after a feeble excuse for the Tienanmen Square massacre, you are now ignoring it, as you are the "warm and friendly relations" with other extremist cases.
Even if your "politicians support Israel" counted for anything in the first place (which it didn't, they being the cynically pragmatic bastards they are), unless you can provide specific examples, your support for Israel is entirely of your own invention.
As I said - dead in the water - all you have are your holocaust-like denials
No examples - no case, only denials.
Wonder if you have a view on Einstein's statement on Israeli fascism, particularly in relation to Deir Yassin, or are you going to keep this one a secret too?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 09:23 AM

If the EU commissioned report is available, I wish to compare it to Andrex. Sometimes, only the best will do when you wish to wipe your arse.

The same EU by the way, completely and utterly denounces the stances similar to yours regarding being circumspect of a Muslim neighbour, GP whatever on the basis that he may or may not have a nephew involved in terrorism.

You seem to be as pick n mix with your morality as Keith and Joe Offer seem to be with their faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 09:20 AM

The UN had condemned all those actions to one degree or another,

Only the General Council which is dominated by dictatorships and oppressive regimes not fit to lick Israel's boots.

You claimed support for Israel from all democratic governments- you have not provided evidence of that support because it doesn't exist

Yes I have.
I have shown that they have warm and friendly relations with Israel which they would not have with an apartheid or criminal regime.

Had any government believed this overwhelming critiscism to be unjust and wrong they would have leapt to the support of Israel

No they would not.
It would just give all that shit credence it does not deserve.
They just ignore it and offer the hand of friendship, while castigating actual criminal regimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 08:05 AM

I have responded to your statement on the other thread
SOME JEWISH "ANTI-SEMITES"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 07:36 AM

Jim: The wikipedia entry I ref'd to reproduced precisely, and as I quoted it, the 2005 declaration of the [then] European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia. The wqell-known fact that Wikipedia can be edited & is not always an impeccable source does not apply in this instance, as you are attempting to suggest. I don't think you want to be thought of as antisemitic. I take it very much that it is not something you would wish to be regarded as. BUT so long as you go on using the word "Nazi" in relation to Israeli policies, then that are precisely what you are showing yourself as being, within the terms, which are exactly as I quoted them, of that declaration commissioned by the EU from an organisation it had created for the precise purpose of establishing such definitionas and parameters.

So ~~ either stop using the word "Nazi" in your posts denouncing Israel, or accept that you are being antisemitic within an officially commissioned definition of that condition by the EU.

You can't wriggle out of this obligation if you want this outcome.

Sorry
.,,.

"It is not, never has been nor ever shall be anti Semitic to question, ridicule or accuse the state of Israel".

It is, as I have demonstrated, within the terms of an official EU commissioned report, if the word "Nazi" is used. I have not asserted it to be so in any other circumstances.


~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 07:16 AM

Ok.

Michael. It is not, never has been nor ever shall be anti Semitic to question, ridicule or accuse the state of Israel. Israel is a nation, and includes many Christians, Muslims and a fair number of normal people too for that matter. Confusing it with the plight of European Jewry to suppress criticism is about as low as you can get.

Keith.

What was that about governments working by facts?

Ha Ha Ha. Ooh dear, a little bit of wee wee has popped out. (I'm dreaming of the obstacles in my way once I am too old to be taken seriously.)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 07:02 AM

"for having denounced Jim as 'antisemitic'"
My response from the other thread
One of the most distressing features of what is happening in Israel today, is that Israel's supporters use the dead of the holocaust to defend atrocities - they would be turning intheir grave if they had been given the dignity of funerals
Jim Carroll

" It can be checked on Wikipedia."
Wikipedia is made up of opinions, not researched facts - nothing they put up can be regarded as a definition unless it is backed up by researched facts.
It is my opinion, and that of many others, that Israel's behaviour is in many instances reminiscent of that of the Nazis, in particular their dehumanisation of the Palestinian people (as deplored by you) and their facilitating the Sabra/Shatila massacre (as deplored by just about everybody).
I consider it deeply Antisemitic to attribute such actions to 'The Jews'- do you think they were Jewish actions or those of the regime you have criticised (sort of) yourself?
In order for me, or anybody, to be an Anti-Semite, I would have to take your stance and blame the Jews, as you are doing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:52 AM

The UN had condemned all those actions to one degree or another,
trhe western press has, All human rights groups have, independent enquirers have
Had any government believed this overwhelming critiscism to be unjust and wrong they would have leapt to the support of Israel - not one government has.
You claimed support for Israel from all democratic governments- you have not provided evidence of that support because it doesn't exist - if it does, give examples of it, I have no doubt you have searched for it, as have I.
" It can be checked on Wikipedia."
Wikipedia is made up of opinions, not researched facts - nothing they put up can be regarded as a definition unless it is backed up by researched facts.
It is my opinion, and that of many others, that Israel's behaviour is in many instances reminiscent of that of the Nazis, in particular their dehumanisation of the Palestinian people (as deplored by you) and their facilitating the Sabra/Shatila massacre (as deplored by just about everybody).
I consider it deeply Antisemitic to attribute such actions to 'The Jews'- do you think they were Jewish actions or those of the regime you have criticised (sort of) yourself?
In order for me, or anybody, to be an Anti-Semite, I would have to take your stance and blame the Jews, as you are doing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:15 AM

Reflections on visiting Israel by a British Afghani Muslim

"Come here and make your mind up don't just repeat what you've been told."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiGYcxhrVQY#t=253

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:44 AM

Ah, I see Carroll's Dr.Strangelove's Arm Syndrome is acting up today.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:36 AM

No single western nation has spoken out in support of Israel's actions at Shatila/Sabra, in support of the atrocities committed during the incursions, the use of chemicals and heavy artillery on civilians, the attempts to starve the Palestinians into submission by a vicious blockade, the Berlin-like wall, the Nazi-like humiliation, the treatment of the Bedouins, the setting up of an apartheid state, ongoing expansionism..... all have been universally condemned by War Crimes and Human rights observers and the world press.

No single Western nation has condemned them for it, as they would if it were true.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:30 AM

And I would add these to M's example:

* Applying double standards by requiring of it behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

* Singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium - let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction - is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:40 AM

Here is an extract from the declaration I refer to. It can be checked on Wikipedia.

'Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:.....

       Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:22 AM

Somebody above (or perhaps it was on the simultaneous Islamic Radical thread) ,whom I have indicated my intention of refusing to converse with directly as a result, became hysterically abusive of me for having denounced Jim as 'antisemitic'. I have long conversed with Jim on various topics; and among other things I persuaded him some years ago to agree to desist from using the word "Nazi" in relation to Israel; pointing out that such a procedure had been explicitly named as an example of antisemitism by the declaration of the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), who published a working definition of antisemitism, in 2005. He promised as a result that he would never again indulge in such a usage.

But in contravention of this promise, he continues to do so -- see his last post. I accordingly call this in evidence of my justification in continuing to make this specific accusation against him, so long as he persists in doing this in defiance of an official declaration by a recognised authority specifically appointed for the purpose of such definition by the European Union.

Please note, all whom it may concern, that I will desist from calling Jim "antisemitic" just as soon as he again forswears this habit of his of denouncing Israel as a "Nazi" entity; and then sticks to such a resolution, as he has failed to do on several recent occasions.

Until then, I say again, with the authority of the Fundamental Rights Agency behind me: he is, I much regret to say, an antisemite; and it is no use trying to denounce me for drawing attention to this incontrovertible fact.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:16 AM

that trade in no indication of SUPPORT for any of their policies

Yes it is.
We have sanctions against Russia and Syria for their criminal activity.

No-one needs little Israel's trade but all democracies welcome it because there is no reason not to.
They are not war criminals or aggressors.
Governments work on facts not the propaganda and lies that gullible dupes like you lap up.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:58 AM

"We can not ostracise them all."
This is not about ostracising Israel - your claim has been that Israel had had the "SUPPORT" of democratic countries, yet the only evidence you have produced for that stupid claim is that they haven't been ostracised.
The west trades with whoever it suits them to do so - that trade in no indication of SUPPORT for any of their policies - Israel included.
You have no case, and your desperate insistence of that claim, without any other example of support, blasts your stupid case out of the water.
No single western nation has spoken out in support of Israel's actions at Shatila/Sabra, in support of the atrocities committed during the incursions, the use of chemicals and heavy artillery on civilians, the attempts to starve the Palestinians into submission by a vicious blockade, the Berlin-like wall, the Nazi-like humiliation, the treatment of the Bedouins, the setting up of an apartheid state, ongoing expansionism..... all have been universally condemned by War Crimes and Human rights observers and the world press.
Up to now, the only practical support for Israel has been through the US using its veto on over 100 occasions to protect Israel from the world condemnation it has received, now it is unlikely to be used again the Yanks have joined Israel's critics in condemning Israel's behaviour, particularly following their having sabotaged yet another round of peace talks.
Israel has no support for its terrorism - in the past, the only support it ever has had is one of silence - now that has gone - you have has the list of examples of the support Israel now has - none.
Your argument was a non-starter anyway - the logic of it is that if Britain and the West has warm and friendly relations with countries like China and Saudi Arabia, that is an indication of support for those policies - utter crap.
You want to show that the democratic countries support Israel - give examples of that support - not their silence.
By the way - I use the word "democratic" extremely loosely.
I watched a TV documentary on Wednesday night dealing with new evidence that has come to light from British documents, showing the use of torture in Northern Ireland in the 1970s.
It seems that techniques first developed by the army in Kenya were refined and used widely in the North then, having been admitted to, were later used in Iraq, highlighted in the Abu Graib revelations, and have been put to use again in Afghanistan and Guantanamo - now there's a "democratic" British export to be proud of - torture!!
I take it we'll here no more of Brucie's lying accusations of my opposing the State of Israel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:12 AM

Not at all. It's just a bit pointless when nothing of value or relevance is debated. Throwing in quotes from partisan commentators doesn't enrich it either.

When you are a lone voice there's often a reason for it. Irrational bollocks mostly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:54 PM

Are you saying we should never discuss long standing issues then Musket.
What a strange idea!

And, are you saying it is wrong to argue against a "lone voice" because, when I have been in that position, you relish being among the "circling hyenas."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:20 AM

Sadly, this is what happens when the only voice of reason is reduced to each of his words being analysed by wicked people who have no idea, no concept and nothing to say about The Middle East.

Jim is a man who I have disagreed with on many subjects and I am on record as saying he could start an argument in an empty room. However..

just because he is a lone voice on this pointless thread doesn't make the general thrust of his comments wrong. The hyenas circling him, looking at each other smugly because they think their distortions have put him down are rather sickening to enlightened minds.

Everybody is going to sort out the Middle East eh? Why now? Nobody managed it over the last 2,000 years although if there was ever a chance, we fucked it up when we invented both Israel and Palestine and kept quiet when both sides claimed divine right rather than government civil servants who drew the boundaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

Every Arab country, and most other undemocratic states, are "guilty of atrocities against its own people."

We can not ostracise them all.
War crimes are different.

No-one needs to trade with tiny Israel.
They choose to have warm relations because they are a good people.
Unlike you, well informed people and governments and know that all the propaganda is just that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 08:46 AM

"Israel is an invisibly tiny sliver of land with no natural resources."
Israel is a wealthy state with world wide political and financial support, including, up to now, that of the United States.
It is a nuclear power, so its terrorist behaviour is a world-wide threat not just a Middle Eastern one.
China is guilty of atrocities against its own people - it is a friend and business party of 'the democratic world' including, and especially Britain.
America had been guilty of War and crimes - everybody trades with America.
Britain traded with Syria, despite over a decade of human rights abuses
After the Arab Spring protests began Britain continued to trade with Syrian even to the extent of weapons and riot control equipment and later, chemicals that could be used in weapon manufacture.
Briatn was selling arms to Gadaffi and supplying arms to the rebels
Weeks after the outbreak of Arab Spring, David Cameron hosted a massive arms fair aimed at several extremist states, including Bahrain.
Business is business - your alibi for Israel is blown.
"....have no right to existence according to Jim."
Whistling in the wind I realise, but can you point out where I have EVER AT ANY TIME OR IN ANY FORM suggested that any state has the right to exist
Your entire case has been based on lies, as most examples of fanaticism are - this is typical of those lies.
I will continue to post my views on the other site and will not be censored by either of you blue-pencil pratts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:49 AM

BBC today Jim.
"Leaders of the G7 industrial nations meeting in Brussels say they are prepared to impose further sanctions on Russia over its actions in Ukraine."

You see Jim, democratic states are quite willing to seriously "rock the business boat" for illegal behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:40 AM

It IS a war crime, in violation of the Geneva Conventions, to launch anti-personnel rockets at civilian areas as has been supported and rewarded by both the West Bank and Gaza territories.

So the Palestinian Territories are terrorist states, illegitimate, and have no right to existence according to Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:50 AM

I don't want any 'authority' on this forum, thank you just the same, Jim. Why it would probably spoil all the fun I am having laughing haha at all your hysterical (& hysterically hilarious) posts.

But be a good boy, now, or you shall not go to the ☯


❤❦·☤~Tink~☤·❦❤

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:52 AM

Decent governments do not have to accuse Israel of anything - it is a recorded fact that they are a Terrorist State, and to accuse them of anything would rock the business boat

Do not be silly Jim.
Israel is an invisibly tiny sliver of land with no natural resources.
Orange juice is not a strategic commodity.
If it was guilty of war crimes no government would need to have anything to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:46 AM

States that brutally repress their own people are ubiquitous and there are just too many to single out.
All of Israel's neighbours, especially Hamas who massacred demonstrators in Gaza, for a start.

War crimes are quite a different thing.
If anyone attacked a school with WP it would be an unequivocal war crime.
The event you refer to is not regarded as such by any responsible, democratic government.
Try not to be so naive and gullible Jim.

Again you ignore the context of the fighting in 47-48 and ignore all massacres of Jews.
Why Jim?
It makes you look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:45 AM

"Jim, you never make any reference to Jews being massacred at that time."
I was the one who produced links to the full article for the first time several years ago - this was a reply to your lying claim that Israel has never committed massacres - it looks as it is - you are a defender of war crimes.
Decent governments do not have to accuse Israel of anything - it is a recorded fact that they are a Terrorist State, and to accuse them of anything would rock the business boat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:36 AM

"Tiananmen Square was an internal atrocity all too common outside of democracies like Israel and Western countries."
So we trade with States who commit atrocities that are "all too common" but not ones who just commit "rare" atrocities - how do you tell the difference between the two?
As I said on the thread this discussion belongs on, your defence of Israel, "if any of those countries believed Israel responsible they would not have warm and friendly relations with such a criminal state" is now blown clean out of the water.
As I said, and you have just repeated, "business is business" whether the customer commits atrocities or not - now indication whatever of the world's clearly stated condemnation of Israel's 'terrorist state' status, which is beyond dispute.
Massacres of civilians, such as Deir Yassin and Lidice, are still considered war crimes and atrocities - it is no excuse that they were happening on both sides, all it means is no better or worse than those you have been attacking on "the other side"
Israel is a war criminal and always has been.
To deny the WP attacks on schools and hospitals is about as disgusting as it gets.
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH

PHOSPHORUS AND EXPERIMENTAL WEAPONS

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH AGAIN

It was fully reported at the time and photographs and eye witess accounts were showing the horrific results.
You have just been given more of the same of attacks on UN schools in Gaza - I assume you are going to continue to deny the use of chemicals - it appears to be what you do best.
At least David Irving makes an effort with his Holocaust denial - yours is just denial in the face of evidence.
And please don't tell me which thread to make my postings to again - neither you nor Tinkerbell have any authority on this forum, and if either of you ever did it would be time for us all to go somewhere else - the end of free speech as we know it, so to speak.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:19 AM

"Sixty-two Jews were murdered by Arabs in the first week after the UN partition plan was passed, and by May 15, 1948, a total of 1,256 Jews had been killed, most of them civilians. These deaths were caused by Arab militias, gangs, terrorists and army units which attacked every place of Jewish inhabitation in Palestine.
       The attacks succeeded in placing Jerusalem under siege and eventually cutting off its water supply. All Jewish villages in the Negev were attacked, and Jews had to go about the country in convoys. In every major city where Jews and Arabs lived in mixed neighborhoods the Jewish areas came under attack. This was true in Haifa's Hadar Hacarmel as well as Jerusalem's Old City.
       Massacres were not uncommon. THIRTY-NINE Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa's oil refinery on December 30, 1947. On January 16, 1948, 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion. On February 22, 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem's Rehov Ben-Yehuda. And on February 29, 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry. Thirty-five Jews were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre on April 13. And 127 Jews were massacred at Kfar Etzion on May 15, 1948, after 30 others had died defending the Etzion Bloc."Frantzman, Seth. Ethnic Cleansing in Palestine?. Jerusalem Post. Aug 16, 2007.

Jim, you never make any reference to Jews being massacred at that time.
You must see how that looks.

You still have not produced an example of decent government accusing Israel of war crimes.
That is because none do.
Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 03:44 PM

Tiananmen Square was an internal atrocity all too common outside of democracies like Israel and Western countries.
If we refused to trade with all governments who ever brutally repressed their own people Israel would be about the only non-Western state we could trade with.

Deir Yassin occurred during the fighting between irregular forces when atrocities were committed by both sides.

There was no WP attack on schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 03:18 PM

A START

PHOSPHORUS ATTACKS ON SCHOOLS

OPERATION CAST LEAD

DEIR YASSIN

All lies of course, just like Tiananmen Square (1,400 claimed dead) wasn't a massacre, otherwise Britain would never trade with any of them
Pratt!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 02:20 PM

"Never been a single one! massacre of Palestinians) "
Atrocity denier

Give us a short list then Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:40 PM

... and the next thread is called "Jokes in the worst possible taste"

There is a God!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:35 PM

Let's hear it for~~~~~~~

C A R R Y O N C A R R O L L !!!!!!!

"He's all right!"

"Who's all right?"

~~~~~~~JJJIIIMMM   CCCAAARRROOOLLL~~~~~~~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:29 PM

Nice to see your friend sticking up for the extremist states Mike - you've brought him up well.
Perhaps you'd better hurry back to the other sire with your blue pencil - tye're all at it, though some of them are actually saying things youi'd want to hear, so maybe not eh?
Sorry your censorship effort didn't work
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

And when I said "Championship", of course I meant top of the Premiership. A bit of a silliness, the way they call Div II the "Championship" these days, isn't it? ~ leads to misunderstandings & ambiguities like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:16 PM

J Carroll: "I will not be dictated to by a couple of extremist morons as to where I make my postings where I wish - if necessary, on both friends (eh? - "threads"??? or what)"

.,.
No, I won't either. So here are a few interests, no more irrelevant to this thread than the enormities of Israel to the Radical Islam one that Carroll goes on obsessing about all over like King Charles' Head, that I feel like talking about; and Carroll nor no-one else can stop me; coz he said so, innit? ···

Isn't it a pity that Inspector Japp & Captain Hastings haven't been in the recent episodes of 'Poirot'? Though David Suchet is always worth seeing, isn't he? & the incomparable Zoe Wanamaker as Ariadne Oliver is always a bit of compensation isn't she?

Well done Arsenal winning the FA Cup. Let's hope they can pull it off again next year. And maybe win the double with the Championship too! Wouldn't you agree, Jim?

Emma did me a pork steak in Chicken Tonight Honey & Mustard sauce for dinner last night. It isn't only nice with chicken, you know, in spite of the name.

I have been rereading Julian Fellowes' "Snobs". Very good. Sort of "Downton Abbey" country. Well worth reading, if you haven't.

Just been watching Halep & Kuznetsova at the Roland Garros Paris Open. Bit of a dull match. Rain had delayed play, so still waiting for Andy Murray to come on ...................................

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 11:22 AM

EU do not trade with Syria, and none of the others have done anything comparable to massacring refugees or using chemical weapons on civilians.

Neither has Israel.
It would be a pariah state among democracies.
It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 11:13 AM

"if any of those countries believed Israel responsible they would not have warm and friendly relations with such a criminal state.
""Today, however, China and Britain enjoy a friendly, cooperative, and close relationship"
ARMS TO EXTREMISTS

SAUDI ARABIA

Bahrain

CHINA

TURKEY

SYRIA


"Only gullible fools believe it all."
ISRAELI WAY OF DEALING WITH CRITICISM

If you wish to continue this discussion on this thread, feel free.
I will not be dictated to by a couple of extremist morons as to where I make my postings where I wish - if necessary, on both friends
"Double the pleasure, double the fun" as the old ad used to go.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 09:30 AM

Those evil Jews give medical treatment to the relatives of those sworn to their destruction:

JERUSALEM — Israel said Tuesday it allowed the mother-in-law of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh into the country for medical treatment.

Maj. Guy Inbar, an Israeli spokesman, said the 68-year-old woman was allowed to enter from the Gaza Strip on Monday to receive cancer treatment at a Jerusalem hospital.

A relative in Gaza confirmed she was in Israel, with Israel Radio reporting she was being treated at the Augusta Victoria Hospital in East Jerusalem, by the Mount of Olives.

The announcement followed Haniyeh's resignation as prime minister Monday, and the formation of a new Palestinian unity government. Hamas has ruled Gaza the past seven years.

While Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group, Gaza residents — even those with ties to Hamas — are authorized to cross the border on a humanitarian basis.

Last November, Haniyeh's granddaughter received treatment in Israel for an infection in her digestive tract. She later died in Gaza

Read more: Haniyeh's mother-in-law treated in Israel | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/haniyehs-mother-in-law-treated-in-israel/#ixzz33g1eTa7Q
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 09:15 AM

You have produced none
You have claimed support for Israeli's role in the Sabra/Shatila massace - none whatever.

Of course I have.
If any of those countries believed Israel responsible they would not have warm and friendly relations with such a criminal state.

It really is all propaganda Jim.
Only gullible fools believe it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 08:28 AM

"I have produced several."
You have produced none
You have claimed support for Israeli's role in the Sabra/Shatila massace - none whatever.
The blockade, the incursions, the use of chemical weapons, the Nazi-like humiliation of Palestinians, expansionism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing of Bedouins - please link us to examples of support of any of these.
Britain's greatest trading partner is China- does that imply support for her human rights record?
"Today, however, China and Britain enjoy a friendly, cooperative, and close relationship. China and Britain have established a full strategic partnership and close cooperation"
The US has vetoed over a 100 UN resolutions condemning Israel's behaviour - it has made it clear it will no longer do so
AN 'ANTI-SEMITIC' JEW'S VIEW OF ISRAEL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 07:38 AM

Kewith
You have persistently claimed that Israel's behaviour meets with the approval of the demacratic states, yet you have failed to produce one single item of that "approval".

I have produced several.
There would not be warm, friendly relations if they did not approve.

Now you please produce evidence that any democratic and libertarian state calls Israel criminal or apartheid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 11:39 AM

An interview with 16 year old Mohammad Zoabi who describes himself as an Israeli, Zionist, Arab, Muslim.

Zoabi explained that it is not easy to be a Muslim Zionist. He said that "the bad sides" of Arab culture have taken control of the society, that he has been attacked several times for his views, and that some people call him a traitor, or even "a Jew." He added with a smile that he cannot understand how people could see the word "Jew" as an insult, when the Jews only recently emerged from a situation in which they were being ruthlessly slaughtered, to one in which they are "one of the smartest and strongest nations in the world."

Cue the name calling.

Mohammad Zoabi: YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 14 - 09:50 AM

Ah yes. Dexter Van Zile, Christian Media Analyst (whatever that is supposed to be) for CAMERA.

The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, or CAMERA, is an American non-profit known for its pro-Israel media monitoring and advocacy.

In 2008 CAMERA launched a campaign to alter Wikipedia articles to support the Israeli side of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The campaign suggested that pro-Israeli editors should pretend to be interested in other topics until elected as administrators. Once administrators they were to misuse their administrative powers to suppress pro-Palestinian editors and support pro-Israel editors.

"We've long considered him anti-Israel", CAMERA's founder Andrea Levin has commented of Peter Jennings.

CAMERA's report, "A Record of Bias: National Public Radio's Coverage of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: September 26 – November 26, 2000" (2001) asserted that National Public Radio's "coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict has long been marred by a striking anti-Israel tilt, with severe bias, error and lack of balance commonplace."

In her film review of Munich (2005), posted on the official website of CAMERA, Andrea Levin states that the film (a collaboration of director Steven Spielberg and playwright–screenwriter Tony Kushner) promotes "its thesis of Israeli culpability" and that "Israel's action battling its adversaries is cast as aberrant, bloody and counterproductive."

CAMERA published a critique of Christiane Amanpour's CNN documentary series God's Warriors, calling it "one of the most grossly distorted programs to appear on mainstream American television", "false in its basic premise", and "a perfect illustration of classical propaganda techniques. Amanpour has responded that the documentary is not meant to compare religions, but rather to show "that each faith has their committed and fervent believers, and we're showing how each of those are active in the political sphere in today's world.

In October 2007, CAMERA organized a conference entitled "Israel's Jewish Defamers," in which a panel of discussants accused selected Jewish critics of Israel, as well as one of Israel's leading newspapers, Haaretz, of distortions and falsehoods about Israel. CAMERA director Andrea Levin described the Jewish critics — who included Princeton University's Richard Falk, writer Norman Finkelstein, New York Review of Books contributor Henry Siegman, former New York Times columnist Anthony Lewis, Trent University professor Michael Neumann, and Tikkun magazine publisher Michael Lerner — of being guilty of "demonstrably false and baseless defaming of Israel, wildly distorted out of context accusations against Israel."

    In a 2003 profile of the organization in the Boston Globe, Mark Jurkowitz observed:    "To its supporters, CAMERA is figuratively - and perhaps literally - doing God's work, battling insidious anti-Israeli bias in the media. But its detractors see CAMERA as a myopic and vindictive special interest group trying to muscle its views into media coverage. ... To many in the media CAMERA is ... an advocacy group trying to impose its pro-Israeli views on mainstream journalism."


And etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 14 - 09:28 AM

"Palestinian propagandists are doing everything they can to manufacture an icon of outrage that shows the world just how terrible the Palestinians are suffering and how evil the Israelis are.

For the most part, their efforts have come up short.

Instead of showing the world just how bad things are for people living in the West Bank, they are revealing the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of Palestinian elites. They are also highlighting the antisemitic craziness that has gripped Palestinian society."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The notion that the Palestinians are the hobbits of the Middle East whose suffering represents a great insuperable wound on humanity's conscience is simply no longer tenable.

Another factor is that a growing number of people are starting to realize that Palestinian suffering is largely self-inflicted."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"But nowhere is this harvest of hate more evident than in Palestinian society itself. In lying to the world about the cause of their suffering, Palestinian elites are lying to themselves and the people they lead.

The anti-Israel and anti-Jewish messaging that Palestinian elites have promoted to Westerners for the past few decades reveals that the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are a long way off from establishing and maintaining a democracy, making peace with Israel and coming to grips with the modern world.

They live in a demon-haunted world of their own making. The end result will be disaster for the Palestinians and possibly for the rest of the world."

Palestinian Propagandists are Losing Their Touch

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 14 - 07:44 AM

Israel fascilitated the massacre - proven beyond doubt - disputed by Israel, denied by the holocaust deniers.
"Yes, where are they goose-stepping Jim?"
The militaristic expansionist incursions speak for themselves.
This study expresses the concerns build up a military society in Israel.
ISRAELI MILTARISM

Some years ago a non-political collector friend attended a ballad conference in Jerusalem - he wrote of the constant presence of what he described as "strutting uniformed peacocks" on the streets arrogantly searching anybody they randomly chose - he described it as militaristic 20 years ago.
We still have his letter, which ends "Beam me up Scotty".
PROPERTY CONFISCATION
Israeli Soldier testimonies
CHECKPOINTS

OCCUPYING HOMES

CROWD CONTROL

SEARCHING FOR WEAPONS

ETHNIC CLEANSING

Jackbooting it is then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 14 - 06:24 AM

Yes, where are they goose-stepping Jim?
They once held vast swathes of the Middle-East taken in repelling attempts to overrun Israel, but hardly any remains.

Others are goose-stepping around in Syria, Hezbollah, ISIS, Iran, but no Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 14 - 06:00 AM

"the Israelis goose-step all over the middle east..."

There goes Dr.Strangelove's arm again....he's just unable to control it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 14 - 05:56 AM

It's good to know that some doctors are doing what they are very well paid to do.

And who pays those Israeli doctors to freely treat their enemies, or rather people from places at war with Israel, and what a rare and wonderful example of humanitarianism.
Small cheer?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 14 - 03:53 AM

Israelis did not kill any in Sabra or Shatila.
All the massacres there were by Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 14 - 03:45 AM

"And if it weren't for the PLO and Hamas those numbers would be close to zero."
You mean if they had all stepped aside and let the Israelis goose-step all over the middle east without offering resistance - "Come out with your hands up and you will not be harmed" - just like the the occupants of Sabra Shatila weren't harmed.
It's all happened before Boo Boo.
The State of Israel came into being to the sound of hand grenades being thrown into occupied houses in order to clear the way for israel's Brave New World.
The Palestinian opposition to Israel expansionism is no different in any way to the fight put up by the Jewish people against British colonialism, only this time it is the Israelis who are the militaristic thugs.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 14 - 07:17 PM

So you're saying, are you, that the PLO and/or Hamas pulled the triggers? How would you like me to say (which I won't, because, unlike you, I refuse to descend) that, had it not been for George Bush, 3000 Americans would not have died on 9/11? There are none so blind as those who will not see... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:55 PM

"At least 1,109 Israelis and 6,862 Palestinians have died in Palestine since 2000; 1,519 of them have beenPalestinian children."

And if it weren't for the PLO and Hamas those numbers would be close to zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 14 - 01:19 PM

At least 1,109 Israelis and 6,862 Palestinians have died in Palestine since 2000; 1,519 of them have beenPalestinian children.
It's good to know that some doctors are doing what they are very well paid to do.
STATISTICS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 14 - 10:35 AM

MONTREAL — Palestinian doctor Wafiq Othman told a Montreal audience he went to Israel with great trepidation, unsure he could ever trust his Israeli colleagues. - See more at: http://www.cjnews.com/canada/palestinian-md-lauds-israel-saving-children#sthash.andn4qZD.dpuf

Today, five Palestinians are training at SACH, which since its founding in 1996, has treated – free of charge – more than 3,400 underprivileged children from 48 countries, over half of them in the Palestinian territories and other neighbouring countries including Iraq, Jordan and Syria, 30 per cent in Africa and the rest in mostly developing countries around the globe.

He remembers being at the operation of a Palestinian child from Gaza during Israel's conflict with Hamas. "A journalist was there, and he asked the surgeon, Dr. [Lior] Sasson [SACH lead surgeon], if he didn't think he might be treating a Palestinian who would come back one day and kill Israeli children?

"Dr. Sasson said, 'No, I think these children will come back and do peace between Israelis and Palestinians.'" Othman knew then he had come to the right place.

Palestinian MD lauds Israel for saving children

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 14 - 10:57 AM

"Zahar also disclosed that Hamas is planning to take advantage of the unity deal to move its terror attacks against Israel to the West Bank. Worse, he declared that after its men set foot in the West Bank, Hamas will target Palestinians who "collaborate" with Israel. "Who said that those who are conducting security coordination with Israel would remain forever?" he asked, referring to the Fatah-dominated security forces in the West Bank.

Zahar, who also said that Hamas would pursue the fight against Israel until the "liberation of all Palestine," is in fact sending a warning message to the Western-funded Palestinian Authority security forces in the West Bank. "We believe in what was mentioned in the Quran: that Palestine, all of Palestine, will be liberated," he added. "The Israeli entity should expect more from Hamas after our rockets reached Tel Aviv."

Hamas: We'll Use Unity Accord To Move Terrorism To West Bank

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 01:30 PM

YO BRUCE!!! WAKE UP!!

Linker [ Your 09 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM post] is saying that the Isreali Gov't gang is being just as big dickheads, & posibly bigger, as the Palestinians. Do you actually agree with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 01:04 PM

"I am saying that all opinions - which is what is being offered here - are to be judged by the individual who offers them "
So - what's wrong with that?
I would never have asked scum like Mosely or Le Pen their opinion on the Jews - I know what they would have said.
The facts speak for themselves - Israel has made clear from day one that the only terms they will accept are those that allow them to continue building settlements on disputed territories
The harassment has not ceased since the beginning and numerous acts of agression have brought the talks to a halt.
The stage has been reached now that even Israel's most influential ally, the U.S. feels itself unable to support - and have become "Antisemitic" (according to those Antisemites who attribute Israeli terrorist policy to "the Jews" - a move in the right direction at last
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:45 PM

To quote Jim:

"I am saying that all opinions - which is what is being offered here - are to be judged by the individual who offers them "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:42 PM

Palestinians, marginalized, oppressed, ignored, and undergoing incredible suffering have every right to object to Israel's "terms" for a vacuous peace process.

The idea that they want to replace Israel with a land of their own is garbage.

What they want is parity, equality with Israel and a right to live as free people, the evidence being that the majority of Palestinians are non-violent resisters, only a handful of rocket launchers compared to the mega-weapons assault of Israel.

Syria, Saudi Arabia and Israel are forms of dictatorships that reject any compromise that
suggest a democratic solution or genuine peace process.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM

"I am saying that all opinions - which is what is being offered here - are to be judged by the individual who offers them '

1. I was talking about your ignoring the FACTS presented.

2. Your statement means that the rest of us can ignore all posts by you and GenocideGreg, the terror of all small rodents.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:04 PM

Oh, and by the way, Bruce, Linker [ Yopur 09 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM post] is saying that the Isreali Gov't gang is being just as big dickheads, & posibly bigger, as the Palestinians. Do you actually agree with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM

"Are you saying that the only acceptable facts to you are those that are presented by those you agree with?"
I am saying that all opinions - which is what is being offered here - are to be judged by the individual who offers them
In this this case a right-wing, head-banging Tea party-goer.
These guys come up with a defence before they've committed an atrocity - as do you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:48 AM

Greggie boy,

Still looking for the duct tape, for your hamsters?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:45 AM

So, Greg, You are STILL supporting genocide, as well as your racism??

Bullshit from BullhitBruce. Imagine my surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM

Why wouldn't he support the Israeli regime - that's where his politics are?


Are you saying that the only acceptable facts to you are those that are presented by those you agree with? SOME of us look at ALL the presented facts, and try to decide what is the truth based on ALL available information rather than just on what we agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM

When Billy does it that gets thousands of posts on Mudcat, when Johnny does it that gets none. The reason for that is self evident.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:53 AM

from the Hamas Charter

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.""


"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who can presume to speak for all Islamic generations to the Day of Resurrection?

This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Sharia (law), and the same goes for all lands conquered by Muslims by force, during the times of (Islamic) conquests, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.

It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Muslims, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Muslims, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit, but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine , is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:44 AM

No, just those that apply one standard to Israel and another to the Paletinians.


So, you refuse to discuss any fact that is supported by those you disagree with?


If ++I++ were to do that, you would have said absolutely nothing on this entire thread….


Gee, maybe that IS the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM

"And, as I have come to expect from you, you attack the PERSON making statements of fact rather than address the FACTS that are presented."
No facts - just defensive opinions from an ultra-right pro-Israeli journalist who has a half-century reputation for same
Why wouldn't he support the Israeli regime - that's where his politics are?
"I'll keep you and Jimmy in the "Pro-Genocide" group."
And virtually everybody else on this forum, I take it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:14 AM

So, Greg,

You are STILL supporting genocide, as well as your racism??


"With this we come to the main reason I believe that the Palestinians do not deserve any sympathy, let alone the astonishing degree of it they do receive (and not least from many of my fellow Jews). It is that ever since the day of Israel's birth in 1948, they have never ceased declaring that their goal is to wipe it off the map. In all other contexts, this would be called by its rightful name of genocide and condemned by all decent people. Yet—here we go topsy-turvy again—for any and every step Israel takes to defend itself against so shamelessly evil an intent, it is the Israelis who are obsessively condemned at the U.N. and by the increasingly strident propagators of what calls itself "anti-Zionism" but is also increasingly indistinguishable from anti-Semitism."

Hamas STILL hard the DESTRUCTION of Israel in it's policies.


I'll keep you and Jimmy in the "Pro-Genocide" group.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:02 AM

Gee, Bruce, Linker [ 09 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM ] is saying that the Isreali Gov't gang is being just as big dickheads, & posibly bigger, as the Palestinians. Do you actually agree with that?

But this hardly qualifies as unique, given that dozens of other ethnic groups...

Didn't your mom ever explain to you that just becuse Johnny was doing something that didn't make it OK for you to do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM

And, as I have come to expect from you, you attack the PERSON making statements of fact rather than address the FACTS that are presented.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM

And what part of this do you object to???


"Besides its strong coverage of cultural issues, it provided a strong voice for the anti-Stalinist left. By 1960 its editor was Norman Podhoretz, originally a mainstream liberal Democrat. He and his magazine moved to the right in the 1970s and 1980s.[1] Benjamin Balint describes it as the "Contentious Magazine That Transformed the Jewish Left Into the Neoconservative Right".[2] Historian Richard Pells says that "no other journal of the past half century has been so consistently influential, or so central to the major debates that have transformed the political and intellectual life of the United States."[3]"


I guess the idea of DEBATE, where BOTH sides are present, is foreign to your way of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:31 AM

So, Jim?

YOU have been quoting and supporting people who have called for the destruction of an entire people- but I guess genocide is OK if it is by YOUR friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:17 AM

You certainly pick your allies Brucie
Jim Carroll

Norman Podhoretz – "is an American neoconservative pundit and writer for Commentary"

Vietnam
In an editorial to the Wall Street Journal on the sixth anniversary of the September 11 attacks, Podhoretz contends that the retreat from Iraq should not be similar to the retreat from Vietnam. He argues that when the U.S. withdrew from Vietnam, it sacrificed its national honor.[20]
In 1982, James Fallows wrote a review of Podhoretz's book, Why We Were in Vietnam, for the New York Times, in which he accuses Podhoretz of "changing his views" and "self-righteousness" on the subject of Vietnam, noting that in 1971 Podhoretz wrote that he would "prefer just such an American defeat to a 'Vietnamization' of the war."[21]
A larger quote from Why We Were in Vietnam which was included in the review is as follows:
"As one who has never believed that anything good would ever come for us or for the world from an unambiguous American defeat, I now find myself – and here is the main source of my own embarrassment in writing about Vietnam – unhappily moving to the side of those who would prefer just such an American defeat to a 'Vietnamization' of the war which calls for the indefinite and unlimited bombardment by American pilots in American planes of every country in that already devastated region."

George W. Bush
Podhoretz has praised Bush, saying "George W. Bush (is) a man who knows evil when he sees it and who has demonstrated an unfailingly courageous willingness to endure vilification and contumely in setting his face against it." He goes on to claim that Bush has been "battered more mercilessly and with less justification than any other [president] in living memory."[15][19]

Sarah Palin
In a Wall Street Journal editorial titled "In Defense of Sarah Palin," Podhoretz wrote, "I hereby declare that I would rather be ruled by the Tea Party than by the Democratic Party, and I would rather have Sarah Palin sitting in the Oval Office than Barack Obama.[24]

Commentary Magazine
Commentary is a monthly American magazine on politics, Judaism, social and cultural issues. It was founded by the American Jewish Committee in 1945. Besides its strong coverage of cultural issues, it provided a strong voice for the anti-Stalinist left. By 1960 its editor was Norman Podhoretz, originally a mainstream liberal Democrat. He and his magazine moved to the right in the 1970s and 1980s.[1] Benjamin Balint describes it as the "Contentious Magazine That Transformed the Jewish Left Into the Neoconservative Right".[2] Historian Richard Pells says that "no other journal of the past half century has been so consistently influential, or so central to the major debates that have transformed the political and intellectual life of the United States."[3]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM

More from above:

"As for the monumental injustice supposedly done to the Palestinians, it consists largely of losing territory in the war they themselves provoked in 1967, and the refusal of their demand that every inch of it be returned to them by the Israeli victors in that war. Such demands have always been known and universally denounced as revanchism or irredentism, most recently over the Russian seizure of Crimea. But where Israel is concerned, everything goes topsy-turvy, so that Palestinian irredentism is universally supported."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:48 AM

"The accompanying and equally great injustice allegedly suffered by the Palestinians is that they have been denied a state of their own. But this hardly qualifies as unique, given that dozens of other ethnic groups—the Kurds being the most prominent—are in the same boat.

In any event, this "injustice" is also self-inflicted, since three times in the past 15 years the Palestinians have refused offers of a state on most of the territory taken by Israel in 1967 and with Jerusalem as its capital. They have justified these refusals by one pretext or another, but as anyone willing to look can see, what they truly want is not a state of their own living side by side with Israel but a state that replaces Israel altogether.

With this we come to the main reason I believe that the Palestinians do not deserve any sympathy, let alone the astonishing degree of it they do receive (and not least from many of my fellow Jews). It is that ever since the day of Israel's birth in 1948, they have never ceased declaring that their goal is to wipe it off the map. In all other contexts, this would be called by its rightful name of genocide and condemned by all decent people. Yet—here we go topsy-turvy again—for any and every step Israel takes to defend itself against so shamelessly evil an intent, it is the Israelis who are obsessively condemned at the U.N. and by the increasingly strident propagators of what calls itself "anti-Zionism" but is also increasingly indistinguishable from anti-Semitism.

Nor, alas, is it only the leaders of the Palestinians who harbor this evil intent. As revealed by poll after poll, as well as by the elections that led the way for Hamas to take power in Gaza, a decisive majority of the Palestinian people does so as well. No doubt this is the fruit of relentless indoctrination from above, but the damage has been done, and the end result is what it is.

Indeed, the best that can be said of both Palestinian leaders and led is that many of them no longer imagine—as did Gamal Abdel Nasser, the former president of Egypt—that they have the power to drive the Jews of Israel into the sea. Therefore they are now willing to give up pursuing the goal of genocide and to settle for the more modest objective of politicide—that is, to get rid of the Jewish state by transforming it, through various "peaceful" means like the "right of return," into a state with a Palestinian majority."

from
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304640104579487444112949138?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:34 AM

Ah: gotcha, Jim. Wilfred Pickles was someone else, from my far-off youth; Northern comic & wartime newsreader, hosted that 'Have A Go' programme [dire schoolboy joke told me by my Cousin Martin at the time: 'Have you heard about Wilfred Pickles terrible accident? Fell out of bed having a go!' LoL]. Honestly hadn't been aware of what old Fatso MP has been saying about Islam. He is certainly not 'my man' in any sense; just a sizeable hole-in-the-air to me.

I don't deny that Farage comes across as somewhat xenophobic in his desire for UK Independence. Goes with the territory, pretty obviously. But not a million miles from the views of many, inc utap mine, in that I have been, not Eurosceptic [an evasive get-out of a term IMO!], but Europhobic right from the get-go. Farage a very different sort of organism from Griffin, surely?, & hardly to be bracketed with him.

But there is some force to the objection raised just above that this a a thread about the mid-East, & all this EU stuff may be a drift too far. Shall we leave this theme now, don't you think?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 05:59 AM

Israelis blame Jews for continuing disruption of peace talks - official
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Independent
MIDDLE EAST PEACE PROCESS: US SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY FACES 'ANTI-SEMITIC' CLAIMS FOR BLAMING FAILING OF TALKS ON ISRAEL
BEN LYNFIELD JERUSALEM WEDNESDAY 09 APRIL 2014
Stung by comments from US Secretary of State John Kerry that placed most of the blame for the deterioration in the Middle East peace process on Israel, Israeli leaders dismissed them as biased at best, and anti-Semitic at worst.
Insisting that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was the one responsible for the current impasse, deputy foreign minister Zeev Elkin told state-run Israel Radio: "Whoever thought there was a connection between reality and the claims of the international community can be disappointed".
"We have experience that this connection doesn't always exist and that political correctness causes the blame to be apportioned equally or worse."
In the view of Mr Elkin, from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, those who have "eyes to see and know the details" understand that Mr Abbas is to blame and was looking for a way to "escape" negotiations that he never wanted.
David Rotem, another Israeli politician, told The Independent that being blamed by Mr Kerry was to be expected. "The Jews are always found guilty of all the problems in the world," he said. "Israel is not guilty of anything."
Mr Rotem added that he was concerned that Mr Kerry's remarks would foreshadow American pressure on Israel to make concessions to the Palestinians to overcome the impasse.
Last week the peace process suddenly disintegrated with Mr Abbas's application to join 15 UN treaties and conventions as a state party – a step viewed by Israel as incompatible with the talks.
Senior Palestinians said the move was taken in response to Israel's failure to release a final batch of Palestinian prisoners as part of releases it committed to before negotiations resumed in July.
Mr Kerry, making an appearance before senators on Tuesday, traced the crisis to Israel's failure to release the prisoners.
"The prisoners were not released by Israel on the day they were supposed to be released and then another day passed and another day and then 700 [settlement] units were approved in Jerusalem and then poof – that was sort of the moment," he said.
He also termed Mr Abbas's subsequent decision to apply to join international organisations "unhelpful".
The State Department later tried to soften the impression that Mr Kerry was blaming Israel mostly, with spokeswoman Jen Psaki stressing that both sides had taken unhelpful steps.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 05:34 AM

A passionate supporter of Palestinian rights might be wholly opposed to the EU,

Yes. Tony Benn for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 03:29 AM

Sorry Mike - missed a bit - I was referring to Eric Pickles statement on Muslim clerics - he figures largely (in every sense) in the present government, doesn't he?
I've watched Farrago several times and I have gained an impression, that his policy - where he has one, on both immigration and the E.U., are interlinked, and are Xenophobically presented.
His sole contribution to life today appears to be to make the lives of Paul Merton and Ian Hislop a little easier - he would be in line for a Grammy if 'Spitting Image' were still going - 'to absent friends'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 07:15 PM

There seem to be two heated arguments going on in the same thread. A bit confusing. After all the dividing lines on the two issues are liable to be completely at odds. A passionate supporter of Palestinian rights might be wholly opposed to the EU, or enthusiastically in favour of it.

Wouldn't a brief ceasefire while things got redeployed into separate threads make sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 01:37 PM

What 'own man', Jim? No idea whom you are refg to. Depends what the 'single issue' is. I should be much in favour of anything that got us out of this fatuous enslavement to that organisation run exclusively in their own interests by our traditional enemies, the Frogs & the Krauts, whose only point of agreement that I can see is a shared hatred of us. God knows how we ever got caught up with that lot. That loony Heath, wasn't it? Caught us up in a posture to be patronised and belittled by that ungratefullest little shit in the history of mankind, de Gaulle. So can see perhaps some remote hope in Farage's campaign; but whether worth bothering to vote, esp at my age when I'm unlikely to be personally involved in anything for much longer & have never given too much thought to posterity who will doubtless be competent to mind their own affairs...

Still can't see any point in bracketing two people with pretty well no policy overlaps just because they are on broadly the same end of the left-right continuum; but political analysis has never been much of a thing of mine.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM

"I don't read that sort of press."
It's not a particularly 'press' saying as far as I recall
I think its pretty generally applied to anti gays and Muslim extremists with equal vehemence (your own man, Wilfred (think that's his name - could be wrong) used it to describe the latter nor so long ago.
I'm afraid I can't see a great deal of difference between Griffin and 'Farrago' - jackels out of the same game preserve as far as I'm concerned
Can't imagine why someone should vote for a single-policy politician anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 12:35 PM

Oh! Right; thank you, Jim. Not a phrase I've come across in that particular usage; I suppose becoz I don't read that sort of press.

Seems to me a phrase quite well adapted for Griffin, but can't see where it fits that other fella whatevs. But don't propose to get het up about the question, which is, at best, of slightly less than marginal interest to me.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 12:10 PM

"just name a politician whom you would call a "love-merchant", eh?"
Sorry - miss your point entirely - "hate merchant" is, as far as I am aware, a pretty common phrase to describe racists, sectarians and bigots - not of my making whatever - would claim to be so imaginative
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 12:03 PM

Gee, Bruce, Linker is saying that the Isreali Gov't gang is being just as big dickheads, & posibly bigger, as the Palestinians.

Do you actually agree with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM

BTW ~~ re both being "hate-merchants": just name a politician whom you would call a "love-merchant", eh? Talk about moronic phrase-making...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 11:53 AM

Full of admiration, Jim, at your astonishing perspicacity in extrapolating my voting intentions, when I don't even know myself what they might be when the election comes -- or even if I shall still be around to exercise them if I do decide: 82 in a month's time, you know.

Still ~~ play your games, my dear!

Best
~M~

Still think it an idiocy to equate those two just coz they're both of the right-ish tendency. If you'd been around then, I suppose you wouldn't have been able to tell Ulyanov from Bronstein, either!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM

Post away and ignore what's happening - that seems to be the way of your world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM

Sorry, there is no solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict The harsh and ugly truth is that some conflicts really are intractable

By Damon Linker | 6:08am ET

So John Kerry's frantic drive to settle the nearly seven-decade-long clash between the Israelis and Palestinians has come to nothing. Everyone who cares about Israeli security and the suffering of the Palestinians wished him well in his efforts, just as everyone knowledgeable about the conflict understood that those efforts would fail.

And yet surprisingly few on either side have drawn the proper conclusion — which is that, for now at least, there simply is no solution to the conflict.

It's easy enough to see why we're so reluctant to accept this harsh and ugly truth.

As inveterate optimists, Americans have a hard time accepting tragedy. We like to believe that any problem can be fixed with enough gumption and good intentions. We're even more inclined to believe it in the case of Israel and the Palestinians because our steadfast support of Israel over the decades has deeply implicated us in the intricate web of injustices that plague the region.

But our desire to find a way out of the impasse doesn't mean that one exists. Not every puzzle has a solution. Not every conflict can be resolved.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has had an intractable quality from the beginning: Two peoples with competing, exclusivist claims to one small parcel of land. That's one important reason why every attempt to broker a lasting peace agreement over the past 66 years has fallen to pieces in the end — because the end is unreachable.

For one thing, each group insists on making Jerusalem its capital city and claims to be unwilling to accept anything short of that. Yes, it's at least possible that this tension could be finessed by some kind of dual-sovereignty agreement. But there's no finessing this: The Israeli government demands that the Palestinians recognize Israel as the historic homeland of the Jewish people (meaning it will not be permitted to become a binational state), while the Palestinians insist on a "right of return" to land within Israeli territory, which would instantly transform it into a binational state — and one in which Jews make up a minority of the population.

That, my friends, is the very definition of an intractable conflict.

The only way out of such a conflict is for the incentives, priorities, and preferences of the parties to change, making accommodation more likely. But the unfortunate fact is that in recent years the parties have, if anything, been moving even further apart.

The Israeli side feels it got badly burned by the breakdown of negotiations at the Taba Summit in January 2001, and then by the Second Intifada that began soon afterward, unleashing deadly waves of suicide bombings throughout the country. Those bombings stopped not because of negotiations, but because the border fence constructed by the Israeli government greatly increased the difficulty of launching terrorist attacks inside of Israel from the occupied territories. The lesson Israel learned from this experience is that security can only be won through decisive unilateral action.

Unilateral action taught the Israelis a different and even bleaker lesson in Gaza. Dismantle settlements, pull back from occupation, and allow Palestinians to decide their own fate — and they will immediately elect an organization (Hamas) dedicated to annihilating the Jewish state. Israel now lives with a hostile power on its southern border that periodically rains down missiles on Israeli towns.

Add to that the anti-Israel Hezbollah faction (and Iranian proxy) in Lebanon to the north; the Syrian civil war, which pits the staunchly antagonistic government of Bashar al-Assad against even more radical Islamists, to the northeast; an unstable and intermittently hostile Egypt to the southwest; and of course the persistent threat of a nuclear Iran a thousand miles to the east — and one can begin to understand why Israel feels more surrounded and vulnerable than ever. The last thing it will do in such circumstances is undertake another experiment in withdrawal from the modest buffer zone of the West Bank on its militarily vulnerable eastern flank.

Attitudes on the Palestinian side have grown similarly intransigent. After having their hopes raised and dashed so many times, after decades of military occupation and ever-expanding settlement building on land that will ostensibly be part of any independent state, it's no wonder that popular support for a two-state solution is waning among the Palestinian people.

Then there's the fact that recent events seem to have shown the Palestinians that time is on their side. As the years have gone by without a peace deal and the population of the West Bank has increased, the world's outrage at the Israeli occupation and disenfranchisement of the Palestinians has only grown. In the past few years, this indignation has inspired the U.N. and other international bodies to begin recognizing, over strenuous Israeli (and American) objections, occupied Palestine as an independent state. This is an effort that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has now begun to pursue more actively than ever.

Not that such recognition will give many additional rights to the people living in the occupied West Bank. But that, in fact, is the point: To demonstrate to worldwide public opinion that the Palestinians have been consigned by the Israelis to live out their days in impoverished Bantustans where they are denied rudimentary rights to self-determination. The Palestinians hope that a growing chorus of global condemnation will eventually drive Israel either to pull back from the West Bank, thereby allowing the establishment of a fully independent Palestinian state, or to grant full political rights within Israel to the Palestinian people — a move that would turn Israel into a binational state.

Neither has any chance of happening.

Which means that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has reached a condition that the ancient Greek philosophers would have described with the term "aporia" — meaning "to be at a loss" or "impassable." There is no peace process. No way forward. This might change down the road. But for now it is our lamentable but unsurpassable reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:23 AM

""They are pressing and saying, 'No peace without the Jewish state,'" he said, though not spelling out who is applying the pressure. "There is no way. We will not accept.""
More or less what the Israelis have been saying and doing right from the beginning
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 08:22 AM

Abbas: No recognition of Israel as Jewish state
Associated Press By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH
March 7, 2014 2:04 PM

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said there is "no way" he will recognize Israel as a Jewish state and accept a Palestinian capital in just a portion of Israeli-annexed east Jerusalem, rebuffing what Palestinians fear will be key elements of a U.S. peace proposal.

Abbas' comments signaled that the gaps between him and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu remain wide after seven months of mediation efforts by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry.

Abbas, whose remarks were published Friday by the Palestinian news agency WAFA, said he withstood international pressure in the past, when he sought U.N. recognition of a state of Palestine over Washington's objections.

Speaking to youth activists of his Fatah party, he suggested he would stand firm again, particularly over the demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

"They are pressing and saying, 'No peace without the Jewish state,'" he said, though not spelling out who is applying the pressure. "There is no way. We will not accept."

Netanyahu gave interviews to Israeli TV stations, excerpts of which were broadcast Friday night.

"I am ready to proceed, I am ready to reach the end of the conflict, but it must be the end of the conflict," Netanyahu told Channel 10 TV. "We won't allow the establishment of a Palestinian state so that it will continue the conflict, so it needs to recognize the state of the Jews just like they are demanding from us that we recognize the state of the Palestinians."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 08:21 AM

No I can't they are both hate merchants - Farage being slightly less articulate than Griffin
But thank you for an insight into your voting intentions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 08:18 AM

small hope, indeed.


Meanwhile, reports Israel National News, the Palestinian Authority is again trying "unification" with terror group Hamas. As a sign of Fatah's goodwill, Saeb Erekat, the PA's top negotiator and a senior member of the Palestine Liberation Organization, called on Hamas to implement all previous agreements with Fatah in order to "fight together against Israel."
"I hereby declare, in the name of President Mahmoud Abbas and the directorate of Fatah, that Hamas is a Palestinian movement, and is not and never was a terror group," Erekat added.
That statement by Erekat is sure to raise the ire of Israel. Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, has been implicated in dozens of terror attacks against Israelis. It is considered a terror group by America and numerous other countries.
Hamas's own charter declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 07:59 AM

Slow burn:-   If Jim really can't distinguish between Farage & Griffin, but brackets them together as above [7 apr, 0929 am], then he must be even more of a political booby than I had previously thought: which, believe me is saying something!.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 12:03 PM

Sorry - that should read "they are if you choose not to count them"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 11:46 AM

"but that doesn't mean that all such hands are eq"
They are only if you choose to count them
I would suggest that Israeli fanaticism, backed by nuclear weapons is as threatening as it gets
I remember with a bit of a chill one of the last interviews on 'The Jews' series, when the settler described how far he believed the the borders of Israel should extend - god (wheover's) help us all.
You are still herding people - fanatics and Muslims together.
And you are refusing to acknowledge any form of bigotry and hatred, other than Muslim extremism.
We're really not getting anywhere until you stop fielding for one side - and lip-service condemnation doesn't hack it anymore - just had a wonderfully laughable example of that from Keith's 'Homs Horror' defence.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:57 AM

...ually soiled. {Not sure what happened there}. YMMV, but Islamic ones seem to me by a good distance the most so.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:55 AM

[MGM]: "ISLAM IS NOT, in any sense whatever, "A RACE"
[JC]: All male Pakistanis with cultural implants are -'
.,,.

"[M]: and do you really think that "Pakistanis" is entirely synonymous with "Islam"?"
[J]: Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

.,,.
Where do you find this 'deliberate misunderstanding' of mine in this exchange?
.,,.
"no particular group comes away from that one with clean hands"
.,,.
Agreed -- but that doesn't mean that all such hands are eq

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:37 AM

" and do you really think that "Pakistanis" is entirely synonymous with "Islam"?"
Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?
No I do not - I think anybody who holds or supports such views is a racist - if the cap fits
I also believe that there is no difference in the outcome of both - bloody, violent, hate inspred violence and persecution.
"None of your bloody biznis whom I choose to vote for. Don't be so impertinent, Jim!"
I seem to remember your making an effort to find out what my politics were - or did I imagine that one?
I have never criticised "religion" other than to describe it as a superstition, which I believe it to be. I criticise the way religion is used to generate hate and violence, mainly by churches - no particular group comes away from that one with clean hands.
Setting a time limit and using a measuring stick on those abuses just excuses them, which it appears you are doing constantly.
The lady who died for want of an operation last year because "this is a Catholic country" is just as dead as the victims of a fanatic's suicide bomb - and the fact that Ireland has been a "Catholic country" for a very long time makes a body-count very difficult.
And please don't try hiding behind the wives of dead soldiers - there are plenty of victims on both sides - including those who were injured by rioters after the Woolwich incident, and the Asian man who was kicked to death and then burned because he took photographs of kids terrorising his family, in order to give them to the police,, or the many thousands of victims of Paki-bashing.... or any of the long-term victims of racial and sectarian abuse - there really isn't any high-ground in all this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 09:48 AM

... and do you really think that "Pakistanis" is entirely synonymous with "Islam"? If not, then, quite apart from the 'cultural implant' asseveration which has caused you so much confusion over so long a period, what precisely is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 09:39 AM

None of your bloody biznis whom I choose to vote for. Don't be so impertinent, Jim!

This fatuity of denouncing anyone for being more critical of one religion than others really does expose your arguments in all their relativist idiocy. It's not 'religious bigotry' to regard the teaching of one particular religion as being more dangerous than that of others. Ask Mrs Rigby.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 09:29 AM

"ISLAM IS NOT, in any sense whatever, "A RACE"
All male Pakistanis with cultural implants are - you have chosen to defend that statement by describing it as "a misunderstanding on my part" and by persistently defending the sicko who said it as reasonable - wade in shit and you get covered with it
GET THAT please do not shout - it lowers the tone.
And no - it isn't where I am going wrong anyway.
Religious bigotry and racism are basically from the same stable - you are a religious bigot.
And neither are my points about Ireland a pathetic form of argument (except to those who have chosen sides) - and I have certainly never admitted any such thing.
Fighting groups who call themselves whatever, Christian, Muslim, Jew... whenever they claim to be killing "with God on our side"
You seem to have caught the 'denial' virus from your pupil - you argument has no substance other than that.
If you choose to direct your bile at "Muslims" rather than Muslim extremists - you really should consider voting for Farrage or Griffin in the next election - that's where your arguments are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 09:08 AM

... as is your point about the Xtn sects in Ireland. Wotaboutery is a pathetic form of argument, as you well know, & have occasionally admitted when you have now & then come up for air from this rage against the universe in which you appear for most of the time to be entrenched. Name-calling·&·abuse right back to you, Mr Pots'n'Kettles Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

"When I returned the question, you declined to answer.
Fine - I'll make my own assumptions on that one."
.,,.
Sorry, Jim; must have missed that. Of course I've met many Muslims. At University; as teaching colleagues, particularly at Peckham Manor School, which had a very diverse staff; on various social occasions. I too have never found anything to object to in them individually, & several have become friends.

But as I say, our individual experiences in this limited particular are beside the point at issue.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 08:57 AM

"to accuse an entire race"
.,,.,.

Exactly where you are going wrong, Jim, &the whole of this series of idiotic posts of yours falls down ·····

ISLAM IS NOT, in any sense whatever, "A RACE"

Can you really not get that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 08:43 AM

"twenty-hundred-&-something"
It plays safe to limit discussion to 'the past' whenever you choose that to be
Over the last decade or so Israel have committed what they have and are still doing so in the name of Judaism (some of us think it just 'Israeli - you have indicated by your accusations that you believe it to be "Jewish - and "Anti-Semitic" to draw attention to it - but there you go).
Within my lifetime horrific abuses have taken place in the name of one religion or another - to pick on one and ignore the one is sectarian - to accuse an entire race for the crimes committed by religious fanatics or is racist perverts - is racist.
I don't believe abuses are committed by the tenets of any faith, just misuses and distortions of doctrines.
Any Christian could (and has) become a mass murderer if they followed the teaching of, say, Deuteronomy, - most people don't and Christians don't stone adulteresses or tear they eyes out of those who offend them.
You asked me once if I had ever met many Muslims - I replied I had met a few.
When I returned the question, you declined to answer.
Fine - I'll make my own assumptions on that one.
I found the people I met and worked for far more interesting, tolerant and ready to discuss both politics and religion, than I did most people, including my fellow countrymen.
I developed a shameful practice at work of never discussion race with the people I worked with, because I knew that it wold invariably lead to ugly, nasty name-calling
Something like a quarter of the people surveyed by the Daily Mail last year admitted to holding and expressing racist views.
I have never in my life, having travelled to over a dozen countries, including Muslim ones, experienced racial abuse because of my colour, belief or place of origin - wonder how many immigrants or even Britons from another country can say that?
I received my education in post-Empire Britain where we were still singing hymns that told us that to be foreign or of a different religion was to be "in error's chain"
Give us a break Mike - your bigotry is really not a lot different than the hate-mongers who preach the killing of infidels - or the sectarian thugs who will be marching a few hundred miles north of here, proudly telling us they are British and stamping on other people's beliefs.
I lived in London in the 70s and 80's when 'Christians' were placing bombs in shops, while at the same time on this side of the water other Christians who kicked with the other foot, were walking into crowded bars with machine guns and mowing down the drinkers.
Waddya want me to do - pick a side, tot up the bodies to decide which ones are the baddies and which the goodies (or maybe the less-baddies or goodies)      
As far as I'm concerned, you can all take your bigotry and stick it - that may seem unreasonable to you - from the particular side of the fence you choose to stand on.
Your childish abuse does nothing but underline your childishness
Am posting this now - hope this goes off ok, but there are probably a couple of typos for you to pick up instead
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM

Maybe so, Jim. "At one time or another" perhaps -- tho I don't unquestioningly accept that assertion in regard to all the abuses I have detailed; but this is now, twenty-hundred-&-something, not 14-whatever, not any vague 'some time or other'. It's no good complaining of how unfair I am being to all those dear friends of yours in Tower Hamlets or Handsworth or Bradford. Where Sharia Law obtains, it has in practically very case been imposed by a government properly elected by due process. So you think it OK, do you, that much of today's mainstream Islam, howsoever charming many of its individual adherents of your acquaintance may be, widely persists in operating to what you admit to being a medieval [at best!] moral & jurisprudential code in the C21? You say you don't defend these practices; but appear to be saying that, as it's only some Islamists that persist in them, well that's all right then, and it's somehow 'racist' to feel otherwise. So who precisely, one might then be moved to ask, is the racist?

The point you are so lamentably failing to take on board, Jim, is that these abuses are not incidental to, or adventitiously related to, or coincidental with, Islam; but are directly and intrinsically brought about by the very tenets, self-acknowledged & widely-embraced, of that faith; by the very fact that the elected regimes concerned are Islamic ones ( of various 'races': Saudis, Malays, Nigerians, are not racially identical). So it is idiotic to dismiss as 'racist' any animadversions against Islam, any warnings of its being a potentially mischievous, anti-humane faith & philosophical system whose influence should be resisted, or at least closely monitored, by the rest of the world. Such observations are the very opposite of 'racist'.

But I know it's pissing-down-the-wind or trying-to-stop-a-bandersnatch to make the effort to get all this into the thick, doctrinaire, mind's-made-up-please-don't-confuse-me-with-facts ☠ of James Carroll, with its infallible built-in instamatic racism-detector…

Ho-hum!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:22 AM

It is not racist to hate Governments - we would be lesser human beings if we let them do what they do without challenging them.
It is deeply racist to apply that hatred and criticism to the people they claim to represent - which is what you are doing now and what Keith does constantly with his "implant" and "brainwashing" shit.
Every religion carries with it a risk of bigotry, condemnation and hatred and to single out one as being worse that the other, or one as not being as bad at the other, as you do, promotes bigotry and hatred.
As somebody pointed out elsewhere, Christianity has probably been responsible for more persecution throughout history, than any other religion, but not because they are any worse or more fanatical, but because they have been given more of an opportunity to do so.
Blaming a basically peaceful and tolerant people, as I have found all the Muslims I have ever met to be, for the behaviour of fanatics, is bigotry and hate-mongering in the extreme.
No - I am not going to defend any of those things you mention - I never have; but I do recognise them all as being aspects of many religions, including Christianity, at one time or another, and would be again if the opportunity arose.
Why do I post twice - I don't - I never do so deliberately - people like Keith constantly complain of my long posts, so I would have to be extremely stupid in giving him twice as much to whinge about.
Where I am, the internet is extremely slow; for some reason I find this forum extremely slow to respond
I now find that I always have to save my postings before I send them (as I will do this one) because sometimes they don't post, and when I check, they have not been sent.
I'm not a particularly patient person, so occasionally I hit the button twice because I think it is taking to long - simple as that - I thought you might have worked that out for yourself - I misjudged you again, it would appear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:51 PM

& Re your tautologous oxymoron "racist islamophobia", Jim; it is not self-evidently either phobic or racist to be critical of a cultural tradition whose governments of states within whose jurisdictions forms of it are dominant and authoritative, indulge in a variety of practices of a capitally or corporally punitive nature which are not practised or approved of, in states where what most people outside them [particularly those of your generally expressed persuasions, Jim!], whose inhabitants do not regard them as appropriate to the usages of decent C21 society: particularly for many offences which are not even defined as illegal in most such parts of the world. Are you going to defend the treatment notoriously meted out to adultresses, blasphemers, apostates, in such countries as Saudi, Yemen, parts of Malaysia, Pakistan, N Nigeria, &c. If not, then why are not you 'islamophobically racist' too?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:32 PM

HIT ~~ So WHY do you always post twice, then, Jim?

RUN? -- Nope, Still here, waiting for an answer. No longer the least bit interested in your fatuous anti-u·no·wot on the MidEast, which we all know by yawn-inducing ❤ by this time. But have always wondered about this compulsion of yours to post your posts twice. Why DO you do it? If you don't answer, but just turn charmlessly offensive as usual, then you, not I, will be the one doing the runner, eh?

Traditional greetings, as ever

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 03:06 PM

"esp when Jim always prints out all his posts twice. Anyone know why he does that? We've always heard him the first time ~~ gawdelpus"
Spineless as ever with your hit and runs Mike
You'll be picking upon typos next - plenty to choose from
At least Keith has the mindless bollocks yo stand up for what he believes in
At least it's finally brought you out of your "neutral" closet into the bright light of racist Islamophobia.
And then there were two nasty little brain-dead shits
"and look at the first few posts."
And then ignore all the rest - and your continuing suggestion that it was OK to sell Assad the wherewithal to get the opposition into his torture chambers - don't think so, do you.
11,000 people have 'disappeared'from Assad's torture chambers and you still want us to accept your view that he should be sold riot control equipment and armoured cars.
You appear to be indulging in self-harm, but at least you now have someone to hold the razor blade for you.
What a sad pair
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM

Jim, anyone can choose to rely on your reputation for honesty(!), or they can choose to take neither your nor my word for anything and look at the first few posts.

Then they will know which of us is spouting dishonest bollocks, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 01:32 PM

&run&run&run&run&run&run&run&run&run&ru··········

esp when Jim always prints out all his posts twice. Anyone know why he does that? We've always heard him the first time ~~ gawdelpus

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 01:19 PM

"Or, you could follow my link to the thread and see who is talking bollocks!"
OK - how about these for size

"That explains why the Libyan security forces have been putting down unrest in the country with plenty of rubber bullets, tear gas and other ammunition to a considerable degree British made.
The UK was still selling arms to Libya just four months before Colonel Gaddafi turned them on his own people, with government ministers approving a deal for sniper rifles, bullets and tear gas".

"Official figures show that since 2009, Britain approved export licences worth £2.3billion to 16 states over a 21-month period.
Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures. The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents. At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners. Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.
Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia. MPs on the cross-party committee admitted the Coalition government had been 'vigorously backpedalling' to revoke 156 arms export licences to the region since the 'Arab Spring' of uprisings began. But they raised concerns about sales of arms in the first place by Gordon Brown and David Cameron to authoritarian regimes, in deals which are at odds with Britain's stance on upholding human rights."

And your good self.
"You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles. The only other "weapons" supplied were armour plated buses, tear gas and water cannon."
"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim.
Britain does not make Kalashnikov rounds".
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferable to live rounds".

What point exactly are you making or have you completely flipped?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 01:19 PM

"Or, you could follow my link to the thread and see who is talking bollocks!"
OK - how about these for size

"That explains why the Libyan security forces have been putting down unrest in the country with plenty of rubber bullets, tear gas and other ammunition to a considerable degree British made.
The UK was still selling arms to Libya just four months before Colonel Gaddafi turned them on his own people, with government ministers approving a deal for sniper rifles, bullets and tear gas".

"Official figures show that since 2009, Britain approved export licences worth £2.3billion to 16 states over a 21-month period.
Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures. The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents. At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners. Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.
Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia. MPs on the cross-party committee admitted the Coalition government had been 'vigorously backpedalling' to revoke 156 arms export licences to the region since the 'Arab Spring' of uprisings began. But they raised concerns about sales of arms in the first place by Gordon Brown and David Cameron to authoritarian regimes, in deals which are at odds with Britain's stance on upholding human rights."

And your good self.
"You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles. The only other "weapons" supplied were armour plated buses, tear gas and water cannon."
"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim.
Britain does not make Kalashnikov rounds".
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferable to live rounds".

What point exactly are you making or have you completely flipped?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 12:37 PM

Or, you could follow my link to the thread and see who is talking bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 11:22 AM

"I did start a thread about Syria."
Crocodile tears which exposed themselves as such when the British Arms Trade was mentioned
What is happening in Syrian is down to everyone who supported her - Britain sold small arms ammunition and supplied armoured cars and riot control equipment - both urged by you.
That was the depth of your sympathy for the Syrian opposition =- to suggest Assad be given the wherewithal to suppress it and lock its leaders in his torture chambers.
You have been given the total who have been disappeared from those torture chambers yet you have not commented once on them, nor have you responded to Britain having supplied the weaponry to put them there, other than to support it and call those of us who find it degrading to the British people - "anti-British" and are still doing so, in spite of the horrific number of fatalities, casualties and refugees brought about by Britain's friend and trading partner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=143239&messages=757

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM

I did start a thread about Syria.
There was little interest, except from Jim who tried to make it about Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 09:11 AM

"I cited as evidence the fact that Israel is endlessly attacked on a plethora of threads, but there are rather few threads where countries like Syria,"

And if you really gave two shits about those other countries, you would start threads about them, not use them to absolve your preferred oppressors.

Your cynicism is legendary!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM

"I started the thread "Homs horror" as an all out attack on Assad."
You have since defended British sales of chemicals to Assad and reiterated your proposal to supply riot control equipment to his regime.
The veracity of your 'Homs Horror' thread was summed up by your dismissal of criticism of selling sniper bullets to Syria which were probably used to train the snipers shooting down women with babes in arms on the streets of Homs - I think your words were, "only a few sniper rifles" (a significat mistake on your part in revealing that you believe selling rifles for snipers was unimportant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:44 AM

Not true Jim.
I started the thread "Homs horror" as an all out attack on Assad.
It was YOU who tried to make it about Britain, instead of your old mates Russia and China who really did and do supply Assad with all his weaponry and munitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:37 AM

You are, of course, right Troubadour
I think the last time he involved himself in what was happening in Syria was in defence of Britain selling chemicals to them at the time of the Assad chemical attacks.
Defence of British arms sales is yet another of his "games" and any criticism of that becomes "anti-British", just as criticism of Israel is "anti Semitic"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM

We were debating whether Israel is singled out.
I cited as evidence the fact that Israel is endlessly attacked on a plethora of threads, but there are rather few threads where countries like Syria, Egypt or other neighbours are ever attacked.
That is a reasonable observation to make in that context.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:28 AM

"Israel's neighbour Syria right now is guilty of the worst abuses since WW2.
Who has been moved to post about it?"

Only you have been moved to cynically use it in an attempt once more to distract attention from the thread topic.

Manipulative, devious and dishonest, to say the least.

And totally in keeping with the pro Israel, regardless of its atrocious actions, attitude you have displayed ever since the Good Friday Agreement robbed you of your other game.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:15 AM

By the way - i suggest you postpone the celebrations until Kieth gets back from church
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:15 AM

By the way - i suggest you postpone the celebrations until Kieth gets back from church
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 06:50 AM

"Welcome back to the Keith'n'Carroll Show"
Sneer away Mike
I have no doubt whatever that you would take exactly the same stance if Keith's target had been the Jewish people other than those nasty Muslims with 'appalling dress sense'!!
I have come to the decision that there is no place for me on a forum that allows itself to be used for persistent bile and hatred, or those who only intervene to sneer at efforts to stop it.
Go back to bed, as you suggested; I'm sure your conscience is very lonely up there without you.
I'll leave the field open to you and your friend
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 06:38 AM

Tune ♫♫ Birds In The Wilderness ♫♫

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh --
Welcome back to the Keith'n'Carroll Show
Keith'n'Carroll Show
Keith'n'Carroll Show
Keith'n'Carroll Show
Welcome back to the Keith'n'Carroll Show
This one will run and run

&run&run&run&run&run&run&run&run&run&ru·························

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 06:06 AM

"Think I'll go back to bed."
Because I wasn't taught to 'pass by on the other side' - you obviously don't share that view and prefer to sneer from the sidelines.
Keith's racist attacks have now broadened to take in the Irish, Anglo Irish - which includes me and mine.
Obviously something you don't feel worth bothering about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 03:09 AM

I'm not on any particular side of the fence in this instance, Jim. Merely commenting that we have been here time & time again to ∞; that all the usual suspects were just saying all the same things to ∞; so that the whole issue had become a complete matter of

הו הם

so why did you all keep on bothering?

Honestly can't see how or why you could interpret this comment as expressing any specific opinion on the matter in hand. But, as I have said before, like brother Paul in Football Crazy, this is a subject that seems to have "robbed you of the little bit of sense you had". No offence; just a quote that come to mind as germane.

Think I'll go back to bed.

Ho Hum!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:45 AM

"that says "Ho hum!" in Hebrew."
Didn't take long for you to scramble back on your side of the fence Mike
My memory is't as good as it was nowadays either
That says, what a waste in English
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 10:21 PM

I can Greg, but everyone else understands.
I have provided a list of examples.
Here it is again,

All EU countries including Ireland, all Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada,.....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:50 PM

הו הם

FYI ~~ that says "Ho hum!" in Hebrew.

I am afraid I don't know how to write it in Arabic too -- or I would.

~
‎מיכאל~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:40 PM

only a complete fuckwit would fail to know what that means.

Once again, proving that you are one, as you can't define or explain the terms you use.

Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:29 PM

their behaviour is condemned universally throughout the world

Except by liberal democracies.
(Greg only a complete fuckwit would fail to know what that means.)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:25 PM

By the way - as you are fond of pointing out - this thread is specifically on one subject " Small hope for Israel/Palestine" - not on "liberal democracies", not about people "attacking me", not about being "Anti British", not about other "terrorist regimes", all of which you have attempted to introduce here - just about "Small hope for Israel/Palestine" - read the large print at the top of the page.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:06 PM

"Once again: DEFINE "liberal democracies"."
Why - what has this got to do with Israel's behaviour.
This is becoming tediously familiar.
You call Pakistanis 'Implanted perverts' and rustle up a group of "experts" who you claim agree with you.
Because a couple of those "expert" happen to be Asian, you accuse those who #disagree with you of being "racist".
Word War One - you spirit up a team of "historians" who you claim agree with you and suggest that those who disagree you accuse of being "anti-British"
The Irish Famine - you spirit up a team of "historians" again and accuse anybody who disagrees with you of being "brain-washed by biased historians and bigoted educationalists - this time placing all Irish and Irish-American children firmly in your sites - all hate-filled morons who despise Britain.
Now what have we got; the old usual - "you're an anti-Semite if you disagree with me" and surprise-surprise; a team of politician"experts" who believe Israel to be the bee's knees!!
Give us a break Keith - you can fool some of the people some of the time (in your case never) - but nobody on this forum is as thick as you believe them to be.
While I am happy to hang around and help you make another complete ass of yourself, I really believe you are quite capable of doing that under your own steam.
You have Israel's record on war crimes and human rights abuses - defend them - 'Casualty' calls.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:03 PM

I refer to all liberal democracies.

Once again: DEFINE "liberal democracies".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 01:59 PM

"I refer to all liberal democracies."
It doesn't matter who the **** supports the Israeli regime, it's terrorist activities speak for themselves
Why mention Ireland - you've just confirmed (see the rapidly disappearing (not before time) that you believe all Irish and Irish Americans are all hate-filled bigoted zombies because of their having been brainwashed by a biased education system.
However politicians and businessmen regard Israel, their behaviour is condemned universally throughout the world; the only reason they haven't faced war crimes and human rights abuses charges is because they have been protected by over 100 U.S. vetoes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 12:58 PM

Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 12:57 PM

I refer to all liberal democracies.
All EU countries, all Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada,.....

Do any accuse Israel of terrorism?
Greg?
Jim?
Stringsinger?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 12:13 PM

"Does any liberal government accuse Israel of terrorism Jim?"
I assume you are referring to the "liberal" Governments who sell arms to terrorists, such as Britain and the United States?
No more Keith; you stand more of a chance of making your point by actually addressing Israel's behaviour rather than producing character witnesses on its behalf who are the world leaders in the arms trade.
Israel is accused and guilty by its behaviour - defend that, if you must
Stop drifting the thread in order to create diversions
Finish eh - let the discussion continue without making it one of our black holes?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 12:07 PM

Define "liberal government" - if you can. Or do you mean "most historians"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM

I would never defend any terrorist behaviour.
Does any liberal government accuse Israel of terrorism Jim?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM

"You care nothing for murdered Arabs unless you can use them to attack Israel or to attack Britain, or just me."
You are somewhat self-obsessed to think you have any place in my thoughts Keith - this is about Israel and Palestine, not about you.
I am happy to criticise any Government who British sells weapons and the wherewithal to manufacture chemical ones to terrorist states and has defended doing the same, especially when it is the government of my country.
I am equally happy to condemn those who condone such behaviour on a regular basis - if the cap fits, as they say.
If you want to continue to defend Israel's terrorist behaviour, feel free to do so - a friendly piece of advice - your message might be more defective if it wasn't delivered from up your own arse - this is not about you - you only come into it when you defend terrorism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 09:58 AM

You make my point again Jim.
You care nothing for murdered Arabs unless you can use them to attack Israel or to attack Britain, or just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 09:52 AM

Times of Israel - there's neutral for you
Israel's behavior throughout the peace talks has been one of aggression and a clear indication that they have no intention of the expansion of settlements, not eve while the talks are taking place.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 09:48 AM

At the heart of the impasse, however, lies a fundamental asymmetry: Israeli Jews have come to believe that their own best interests, and specifically the imperative to retain a Jewish and democratic Israel, require an accommodation with the Palestinians. There is no comparable imperative on the Palestinian side — not, that is, so long as much of the international community persists in indicating to the Palestinians that they will be able to achieve full independence and sovereignty without the inconvenience of coming to terms with Israel.

Read more: Why the peace talks are collapsing, part 94 | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/why-the-peace-talks-are-collapsing-part-94/#ixzz2xvXMAEjx

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:46 AM

"You make my point again Jim."
No Keith I'll make my point again
"When Assad was still just killing demonstrators and destroying only Homs, I started a thread condemning it."
It was on the same thread that you proposed arming Assad with riot control equipment and excused his being sold "only sniper rifles" - which you identified as such - this last was at the time that the citizens of Homs were being cut down in the streets by snipers.
Since then, you have reiterated your support for the sale of riot equipment, even going as far as to search out an obscure Australian group to back up your outrageous proposals.
You have supported the sale of chemicals to the Syrian regime which are capable of being used for the creation of chemical weapons.
So much for your "sympathy" for Assad's victims.
One sick cookie"
A hypocritical racist defending a regime committing war crimes and human rights abused
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 04:32 AM

You make my point again Jim.
You care nothing for murdered Arabs unless you can use them to attack Israel or to attack Britain, or just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 07:56 PM

Desmond Tutu has an eloquent statement on the oppression of the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 07:48 PM

Nice, BooBad - but can we discuss 2014 rather than ancient history? After all, its the present we have to deal with.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:59 PM

The shame is that a two state solution was offered to the Arabs in 1947. Israel accepted it and wanted to live in peace. The Arabs rejected it and wanted to wage war. Everything that has happened since is the result of that decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:49 PM

Jews went on their own and reclaimed Jewish owned land illegally stole,

No BooBad, Israelis (not "Jews") on their own appropriated and occupied land extralegally.

So to oppose Jewish settlements is actually simply anti-Semitism

Same old dogshit "anti-Semite" smokescreen.

So the oppressor gets to dictate what is "right" and what is "legal".

It was ever thus, BooBad.

Shame that the Israeli government has learned absolutely nothing from the historical persecution of the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:40 PM

The settlement movement began long before any authorization by the Israeli Government as Jews went on their own and reclaimed Jewish owned land illegally stolen in 1948 by Jordan. Settlements date from 1967-1973. The Israeli Government authorized nothing until 1974. So to oppose Jewish settlements is actually simply anti-Semitism - saying that Jews should not be allowed to live on land they own and that the mere presence of Jews is a problem for Arabs. If Israel would claim that all Arabs must leave Israel because they are a provocation, the world would scream, but it seems OK to demand that Arab areas be free of Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:36 PM

According to whom? The Israeli government?

Try again, apologist.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:33 PM

"on territory that is not their own."

The land on which the "settlements" are built are titled to and legally owned by Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:28 PM

BooBad, Persons of whatever religious persuasion should not be allowed to build by fiat backed up by guns on territory that is not their own.

Hence the occupied territories.

But of course in your book, srael can do no wrong, whatever atrocities it commits.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:24 PM

The "settlements", which are nothing but housing developments, had been planned and announced way before the peace talks were proposed. They are being constructed on land legally owned by Jews. Should Jews not be allowed to own land and build on it in the West Bank?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 12:23 PM

Palestinians set new conditions for peace talks to continue

Gee, BooBad, ya think Israeli intransigence and stonewalling and the continued construction of "settlements" in the occupied territories might have influenced the decision?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:07 AM

"When Assad was still just killing demonstrators and destroying only Homs, I started a thread condemning it."
It was on the same thread that you proposed arming Assad with riot control equipment and excused his being sold "only sniper rifles" - which you identified as such - this last was at the time that the citizens of Homs were being cut down in the streets by snipers.
Since then, you have reiterated your support for the sale of riot equipment, even going as far as to search out an obscure Australian group to back up your outrageous proposals.
You have supported the sale of chemicals to the Syrian regime which are capable of being used for the creation of chemical weapons.
So much for your "sympathy" for Assad's victims.
One sick cookie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:06 AM

Why bother negotiating?


Palestinians set new conditions for peace talks to continue

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:29 AM

You make my point Jim.
When Assad was still just killing demonstrators and destroying only Homs, I started a thread condemning it.
It generated little interest, except from you, and you were only interested in attacking Britain as now.
No compassion for murdered Arabs unless Israel can be framed.
No criticism of any other state however evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:14 AM

"Israel's neighbour Syria right now is guilty of the worst abuses since WW2."
With the assistance of British equipment, chemicals, not to mention a suggestion by you that Assad by supplied with the wherewithal to control his people with sales of riot control equipment.
What on earth has this to do with Israel and Palestine - the subject of this thread - Mr "Thread Drift"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:32 AM

Israeli terrorism is current

Israel's neighbour Syria right now is guilty of the worst abuses since WW2.
Who has been moved to post about it?

These are all world-wide recognised abuses of human rights.

Except by decent liberal democracies who recognise no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 03:26 AM

Sorry - missed a bit
You appear to be accusing Mudcat of being a platform for Anti-Semitic hatred
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 03:24 AM

"Only Israel is EVER attacked."
Israeli terrorism is current
Present Israeli behaviour is, as we speak, putting at risk the only slim chance of peace in the Middle East.
Israeli heads of security have publicly described on film how they went about their work - one of them compared the present Israeli leadership with Nazi Germany - all these men are Israeli patriots.
The two official attempts at ethnic cleansing of Bedouins were both withdrawn due to world condemnation
Sabra Shatila - the Palestine blockade - acts of military aggression aimed at Palestinian non-combatants
These are all world-wide recognised abuses of human rights.
A few months ago the screening of 'Five Broken Cameras', a prize-winning documentary, showed up close the predatory and inhuman behavior that is taking place in Israel today.
All are either defended or totally ignored by atrocity deniers.
Any attempts to criticise Israeli behaviour are greeted with hysterical accusations of "Anti-Antisemitism" from anti-Semitics who attribute Israeli war crimes and abuses to the Jewish people as a whole.
Israel places itself in the spotlight because its ongoing behaviour is putting the planet at risk.
Its attitude to its neighbours is an affront to anybody with any feelings of humanity and fairness.
The State of Israel is now ruled by a group of extremists who are intent on creating an Apartheid state and ghettoising all who don't fit into that dream.
That is why "only Israel is ever attacked", which is a stupid lie anyway - human rights abuses from all parts of the world are discussed and condemned on this forum regularly.
This statement is yet another attack on this forum and its members, by an individual whose hatred of humanity appears to know no bounds.
Well done Keith - you've done it again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 12:55 AM

Yes there are plenty of abuses to go around in many countries of the world

...but Mudcat does not care.
Only Israel is EVER attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 05:24 PM

there are plenty of abuses to go around in many countries of the world but this doesn't absolve Israel for its participation in these abuses.

Well, accordiing to BullshitBruce & BooBad, it does absolve them.

Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 05:21 PM

It's fairly obvious that there are many dictators in the world, some in the Muslim world and one notable one in the Zionist world, as FDR used to say, "Yes, but they are our bastards" when it was in the interest of the US.

Israel has become "our bastard" and Kerry is a puppet.

Zionism is separate from all of Judaism, but the Israeli propaganda machine equates the two as one, which it is not. There are many Jews who decry how Israel is violating human rights through violence and religious nationalism.

Here are some people with Jewish backgrounds, Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Norman Finkelstein, Goldstone and I think but not sure Ilan Pappe, and there are plenty more who object to the Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people. Even the young people of Israel are refusing to be conscripted into a corrupted army.

Yes there are plenty of abuses to go around in many countries of the world but this doesn't absolve Israel for its participation in these abuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:55 PM

1639! Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:00 PM

My point is that all your accusations are bollocks.
All decent governments know it is all lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:33 PM

"Oh, that's right- you have a different set of rules for a Jewish State than a Muslim one."
What - don't follow that one at all??
Our Governments trade with any terrorist state - including Israel.
If they had a conscience they would use trade as a lever to help establish human rights - certainly not sell arms to whoever wants them.
What's your point - apart from blaming the Jews for Israeli war crimes again.
Now, about all those apartheid states you were telling us about.....!!!

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:32 PM

Israel has been the subject of over one hundred condemnatory motions at the U.N. - all vetoed by the U.S.

Did any decent government support any of those motions, or just a lot of places with far worse human rights?

Israel has been found to commit enormous human rights atrocities,

By who?
Any liberal democracies or just a lot of places with far worse human rights?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 12:28 PM

"All the countries you have named are allies and valued trading parteners of the U.S. and Britain - you want to do something about it, ask your Govenment to intervene"

What, you mean like Israel is????



Oh, that's right- you have a different set of rules for a Jewish State than a Muslim one.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM

All evicting other races and cultures - wonder where all those relatives of friends I know working in Saudi - or those planning to move there later this year, or all the ex-pats we met on our trip to Egypt, or the Christians living in Libya, or Yemen.....
I have not herd of ghettoisation or eviction at the point of water cannon or chemical sprays, in order to create Muslim settlements - do tell.
Anybody living in any country other than their own is subject to the laws and expected to respect cultures of wherever they settle - what is happening in Israel is forcible eviction of tribes and cultures who have occupied territory for centuries, sometimes millennia, i order to create a Jewish State.
This has got down to the highly evocative situation of creating racially divided public transport.
Go read The Equality report.
Palestine has now been subject to a - what - eight year blockade of essential goods in an attempt to bring it to heel.
Israel has been the subject of over one hundred condemnatory motions at the U.N. - all vetoed by the U.S.
Israel has been found to commit enormous human rights atrocities, and has yet to be brought to justice because of the support of America and her allies/poodles.
Give us a break - even little Booboo (with his clumsy plundering of extremist racist sites) can do better than this.
All the countries you have named are allies and valued trading parteners of the U.S. and Britain - you want to do something about it, ask your Govenment to intervene
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM

Iran
Egypt
Jordan- ( by law since creation as Arab Moslim Palestinian Homeland )
Pakistan & India when separated
Sudan
Eritrea
Libya
Saudi Arabia
Yeman

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM

Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967.

Do tell. Unbelievable, even for you, BooBad.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:06 AM

AS I HAVE SAID
Show one State other than Israel who is actively evicting entire nations in order to create a single/race religion state - stop waffling name names
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:58 AM

I've seen it all now. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:52 AM

Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:37 AM

"no other State I can think of is evicting ethnic groups from legally occupied territory in order to create single- religion communities - can you name one?"

AS I HAVE SAID,

Look at the Arab nations in the region. LOOK at their LAWS.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:07 AM

You might add - no other State I can think of is evicting ethnic groups from legally occupied territory in order to create single- religion communities - can you name one?
Religious extremism such as yours is evil and is dangerous, whatever form it comes in - when it is State inspired by a nation that possesses nuclear capability it puts us all at risk
I've become fed up with people like you who blame the Jews for state terrorist behaviour - it is you who are the anti-Semites.
Attempting to block discussion by saying "your only picking on Israel because you are an anti-Semite", is scooping the bottom of the racist barrel.
It is equivalent to saying black, Asian, Latin-American criminals cannot be prosecuted because of their ethnic origins.
Your turn
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 09:59 AM

Jim,

Check the LAWS in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Iran in regards to Jews and Ba"hai.


Then look at the LAWS in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 09:40 AM

"No other state is systematically ethnically cleansing entire cultural groups to make an apartheid-like state - as did South Africa."
Perhaps you can point out one state which is ghettoising any ethnic group by the use of chemical weapons and forcibly shifting them onto toxic rubbish dumps in the way Israel is Bedouin, in order to create a single culture State - I can't.?
Now that's what I call 'ethnic cleansing in order to create an Apartheid state - what do you call it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 09:12 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:23 AM

Since many here single out Israel as the ONLY regime that commits such terrible crimes

I'm not aware of one single person here who has done this.


" Incidentally, "Jim" is not "many here""


I provided you with "one single person here", AS YOU ADMIT.


You want more, go read the threads yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:57 AM

This what you said:

Since many here single out Israel as the ONLY regime that commits such terrible crimes...

You did not specify the crimes in question and squirming around to narrow your definition after you've been challenged is patently dishonest. Incidentally, "Jim" is not "many here". Now, as with the other thread, I'm moving on from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:55 AM

GergF,

You should be able to find the duct tape you need to continue molesting small rodents.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:53 AM

Since many here single out Israel as the ONLY regime that commits such terrible crimes

I'm not aware of one single person here who has done this.

There is ONE person: BullshitBruce himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:51 AM

Stev,

Here is the first I find- now go look and see about the others.


"Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 01:25 PM

"The problem is that unless you are boycotting.... "
Once again - they're all doing it so why can't Israel be left aloone to do it
****************************************************************************************
No other stat is systematically ethnically cleansing entire cultural groups to make an apartheid-like state - as did South Africa.
****************************************************************************************
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:39 AM

If Jim has stated it on numerous threads, I assume you have the references to hand. I have not known Jim to single out Israel as "the ONLY regime that commits such terrible crimes" (your quote, your capitals). If I'd ever read Jim saying that in a post, I would have immediately waded in to disagree. It seems clear to me that you are unable to support your statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:29 AM

I disagree. Palestinians have been treated poorly by those nations, and Jordan is the Palestinian ARB MUSLIM HOMELAND created from the Mandate Palestine territory. If the laws against Jews there are not fair, why should Israel ( the Jewish Homeland of the Mandate Palestine) be forced to treat Muslims any better ( though they do) ?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM

"My point is that the countries in that region have a far worse record of treatment of minorities and women"
Your point is irrelevant - this thread is entitled "Small hope for Israel/Palestine" - you want to talk about another topic altogether, go open another thread
Your point isn't even thread-drift - it is an entirely different subject
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:10 AM

Jim Carroll has stated this on numerous threads, numerous times. Ask him.

I state that you missed or ignored those posts. - Or that you are not telling the truth about not seeing them-

YOU pick out the truth. I do not claim to know what YOU pay attention to.



My point is that the countries in that region have a far worse record of treatment of minorities and women, IN THEIR LAWS, and there is no complaint- Just against Israel for it's admittedly less than perfect implementation of its far more acceptable laws.

I was prohibited from working in Saudi Arabia BECAUSE of my religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:00 AM

"This was a thread about hope, the hope for a peaceful settlement of the differences between the Jews and the Palestinians"
No it wasn't - it was a comment on the fact that Israel has all but scuppered those hopes by its aggressively predatory behaviour in the Midle East - keep up Booboo - Yogi would strongly disapprove.
Sheesh!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:48 AM

If that post is supposed to be a response to mine, it hasn't really done the trick, has it? You're just flapping around. No substance. If you make an accusation you should be prepared to support it. Now do tell us who here has singled out Israel in the way you described. Quotes from posts would be good, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:27 AM

Then you have missed a number of post about Israel being the ONLY "apartheid" regime left in the world-



No mention of LAWS in Saudi Arabia prohibiting freedom of worship ( as in many other Arab Muslim nations) or the ones in Jordan ( SINCE 1924, when it became the PALESTINIAN MUSLIM HOMELAND portion of Mandate Palestine) prohibiting citizenship to Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:23 AM

Since many here single out Israel as the ONLY regime that commits such terrible crimes

I'm not aware of one single person here who has done this.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:14 AM

Since many here single out Israel as the ONLY regime that commits such terrible crimes, I will presume that if Israel were to adopt the LAWS that are in place in such enlightened countries as Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, et al, with respect to the non-majority religious groups.

Will that make them happy?






Ask any Ba"hai about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:06 AM

This was a thread about hope, the hope for a peaceful settlement of the differences between the Jews and the Palestinians. It remained fairly positive until the usual coterie of haters arrived. They don't ever pass up the opportunity to pollute a thread with their bile, do they.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:11 AM

Who says they have committed war crimes?
Any decent governments?
Name one.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:28 AM

"BUT I will call out hatred and lies and demonization of Jews "
Sure you will - you Anti-Semitic scum have developed a stance of skulking behind six million dead to make your Zionist case.
These are ISRAELI crimes war crimes and human rights abuses, not, as you insist JEWISH
I would have thought the Jews of this world had quite enough to contend with lareeady without having to defend themselves from accusations of crimes such as the mass-murder of refugees at Sabra/Shatila.
Israeli - not Jewish.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 08:30 PM

BUT I will call out hatred and lies and demonization of Jews (and anyone else for that matter) when I see it.

Then tell us exactly where you've seen it, you squiffy little arsehole. Come along now, no more pissing around. Chapter and verse if you don't mind, and do spare us the loose, unfocused venom. Otherwise, why don't you bloody well just shut your ugly face. Permanently, preferably. Backwoodsman-gits like you are precisely what's wrong with this board, and I don't give a monkey's bloody mickey whether or not our timid mods agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 06:52 PM

As I thought, BooBad - nothing but empty platitudes and bullshit.

Thanks for confirming it!

Regards, G.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 06:33 PM

I have nothing to say to sanctimonious, opinionated, holier-than-thou self-satisfied assholes that I haven't said a hundred times before BUT I will call out hatred and lies and demonization of Jews (and anyone else for that matter) when I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:49 PM

So BooBad, aside from the usual apologetic bullshit exempting the Israeli government from the strictures you apply to the rest of the world, what have you got to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:22 PM

And it's cheering section shows up right on cue.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:08 PM

You really are an incredibly vile person, aren't you. Right up there with creationist pete and homophobe Ake and revisionist-denier Keith. A despicable comment from a despicable [prson]. Scum.

Amen, times two. Or, times ten.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:47 PM

Oh look another Jew hating Brit spewing lies and demonizing Israel, what a surprise.

You really are an incredibly vile person, aren't you. Right up there with creationist pete and homophobe Ake and revisionist-denier Keith. A despicable comment from a despicable man. Unless you're a woman. How would I know. Scum. C'mon, give us some more of your obnoxious bile and I'll tell you what I really think.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:45 PM

Oh look - another Anti-Semite blaming Jews for the Crimes committed by the Israeli regime - no surprise there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:24 PM

Oh look another Jew hating Brit spewing lies and demonizing Israel, what a surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 03:00 PM

"Because frankly, I doubt there is a single Palestinian in the Levant or North Africa who wouldn't swap places with an Arab-Israeli in a heart beat."

And the Palestinians you studiously avoid mentioning, in Gaza and the West Bank?

How many of them see any possibility of being treated as human beings, let alone equals?

I'll save you the trouble.............NONE!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:51 PM

"Every country has a few fanatical racists.
Why, in your first sentence, single out Israel?"

In a thread specifically about Israeli/Palestinian relations, why d'ye think?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:38 PM

Too many big words Muskie, too many big words.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:38 PM

Too many big words Muskie, too many big words.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 09:49 AM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 08:45 AM

No matter what the subject...

Tell you what Keith, at least you are consistent....








I've found the link. Any subject upon which his ignorance shines like a beacon.   The normal, want to get on with their lives cosmopolitan western minded people of both sides shake their heads slowly when they hear the talking heads Keith seems to admire and copy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 08:36 AM

This is a discussion about what is happening in Israel/Palestine Mike - I responded to Keith's attempts to defend Israel's behaviour.
I have always condemned all religious - or any other form of terrorism, though I am often accuse of defending Islamist behaviour - I don't.
At the moment the Middle Est has a slim chance of resolving some of the problems - Israel continues to put that at risk - that is the matter under discussion.
I am equally at Egypt's mass condemning to death the opposition of the rebel opposition there (can't remember the exact number), but this in no way impinges on the discussion in hand, despite Keith's permanent efforts to use it as a defence of Israeli terrorism.
As far as the rest of the world - Israel has nuclear capability, which fills me with horror, as does the fact that Iran has as well - but on the other hand, so has the U.S. - god help us all!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 08:36 AM

This is a discussion about what is happening in Israel/Palestine Mike - I responded to Keith's attempts to defend Israel's behaviour.
I have always condemned all religious - or any other form of terrorism, though I am often accuse of defending Islamist behaviour - I don't.
At the moment the Middle Est has a slim chance of resolving some of the problems - Israel continues to put that at risk - that is the matter under discussion.
I am equally at Egypt's mass condemning to death the opposition of the rebel opposition there (can't remember the exact number), but this in no way impinges on the discussion in hand, despite Keith's permanent efforts to use it as a defence of Israeli terrorism.
As far as the rest of the world - Israel has nuclear capability, which fills me with horror, as does the fact that Iran has as well - but on the other hand, so has the U.S. - god help us all!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM

Steve raised the issue of singling out one country for criticism while carefully avoiding others.

This is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I said nothing about "carefully avoiding others". In fact, I never defend breaches of human rights, even in countries I might support in other ways (I actually support Israel's right to exist in peace and I have a lot of sympathy for ordinary Israelis, and I've said these things here on a number of occasions). If you want to start a thread singling out another country for the spotlight, go ahead. I'll join in, if I know enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 07:26 AM

No, Jim: no 'excuse' involved. I excuse nothing of the apartheid activities, which are otiose as well as unjust, & of the existence of which I make no denial. Simply pointing out that there may be more grounds than one for "singling-out"; you, being a political sort of guy, single out the political malefactions; but they are not the only sort which warrant the activity. I explicitly said that doesn't make anything else OK, and you are being unjustly and unintelligently disputative in pretending that you thought that I thought it did. You accused me of "defending one terrorist state by pointing to another as an excuse" - when I had stated in as many words that the states I rubricated were NOT terrorist states in any sense, in respect of the shortcomings I was enumerating, but ones with most defective legal & judicial systems; to which we turn a blind eye coz we need their oil; and anyhow, it's their cultcher innit? Can you not see that your attitude to these abuses is nothing but "Oh well, they are only ......s, so what can you expect?" Search out the implications of that for yourself, why don't you?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 07:16 AM

By the way - one of the persistent acts of terror the US has been accused of is the indiscriminate use of drones in built up ares.
If you open the link that you have bee given, "Israel's Human Rights Record" you will see that Human Rights Watch is accusing Israel of the same act of terror
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 06:42 AM

"No, unless Obama is a terrorist too."
America regularly commits acts of terrorism and has been exposed for having done so often.
Dropping bombs on occupied (in the case of market places, crowded areas, in order to kill SUSPECTED terrorists" is an act of inhuman terrorism - just as much as planting a car bomb is.
America has defended it by inventing the term "collateral damage" - it is an act of terror
No human being (outside of politics) would dream of defending it - but you don't fit that category.
"But it depends what one wants to "single out" states & regional entities FOR, dunnit? Eh, Jim?"
Been there- done that Mike.
You are sinking to Keith's and Bruce's level by defending one terrorist state by pointing to another as an excuse - I was beginning to think you were better than that - it seems not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 06:16 AM

Now, the stoning to death of 'adultresses' [ie any women who put it about, even if married, if it is not to a man approved by the family or the authorities], the public caning of 100 strokes on the bare bottom for any woman who dresses 'immodestly' or exchanges a word with any man she's not related to, the hanging of any who choose to convert to any other religion, &c &c &c --

are NOT "acts of terrorism"; they are just the law as it stands in eg Saudi, Morocco, Algeria, Yemen, other Muslim entities thereabouts. No wonder any Arabs who can manage it would rather live in Israel; even if they do, admittedly [& this is not to justify the fact, simply to describe the situation as is] get apartheided; which I agree they shouldn't & the Israelis have got plenty more land that they could settle without having to steal people's homes & ruin their crops & livelihood; & I agree they are just being bloody awkward 'becoz they can'!

& we've done all this before like a bloody old-style stylus stuck in a groove...

But it depends what one wants to "single out" states & regional entities FOR, dunnit? Eh, Jim?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 06:02 AM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 May 13 - 02:38 PM

The deliberate dropping of a bomb in the middle of a town, knowing there were bound to be many casualties was to sanction deliberate 'collateral damage'.

No, unless Obama is a terrorist too.
The terrorists are legitimate targets and can be attacked if you make every effort to avoid or minimise collateral casualties.
Israel has always done that.

The murder of Rabin was not terrorism and nothing to do with the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:43 AM

"The murder of Rabin was not terrorism and nothing to do with the government of Israel."
The murder of Rabin was carried out by an Israeli terrorist - an act of terrorism.
It was deliberately provoked by mass meetings called by Extremist Rabbis and supported by thousands - an open incitement to terrorism.
Not one of those who organised or spoke at those meetings have been arrested or called to answer the crime that they were actually filmed at - State collusion in terrorism.
"No, unless Obama is a terrorist too."
A moot point - the US at Falujah, Afghanistan and Viet-Nam (and name any state where the CIA has operated) regularly used terror tactics.
The imprisonment and torture of suspects, keeping them in cages for years on end and failing to charge them with any crime are all acts of terror and are recognised as such.
The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR
The sanctioning of the murder of two kidnappers (one of them was kicked to death by soldiers) is an act of terror.
This is a bizarre defence of terrorist atrocities, even by your standards.
Jim Carroll

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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 May 13 - 03:22 PM

The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR
No. It is not.
The six say that it is counter-productive for Israel.
You and I might think they are right, but it is not terrorism.
Terrorism is what the Palestinians do- killing civilians deliberately and for no other reason than to terrorise civilians.

The Boston bombs were planted by Americans.
It would be misleading to call that American terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:17 AM

I am aware of the title Jim, but Steve raised the issue of singling out one country for criticism while carefully avoiding others.

Re. your quotes of us.
Can you show them in context please, or give a link so they can be seen in context.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:11 AM

"Singling out one country again."
Read the thread title - Israel/Palestine
Nice to see you comparing Israeli war crimes with Syria though
Next door is no worse or better than Israeli at the moment and your openly defending terrorist acts against civilians doesn't put you in any position to make judgements on either.
"Me "The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR"
You "No. It is not".
Have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:45 AM

Singling out one country again.
Why do you never single out, say, Syria?
Next door and worse in every way.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:05 AM

Just a refresher of your take on human rights
Me "The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR"
You "No. It is not".
Jim Carroll
ISRAEL'S CURRENT HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 03:55 AM

"What if the country is surrounded by worse ones who never get singled out?"
Makes 'em as bad as one another, should it prove to be the case - can't think of another Apartheid regime since White South Africa shuffled off its mortal coil.
One human rights criminal does not excuse another
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:49 AM

What if the country is surrounded by worse ones who never get singled out?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:31 PM

Singling out one country is bigotry.

Singling out a country for discussion in a thread on an internet forum is singling out a country for discussion in a thread on an internet forum. Having a strongly critical view of a country is not in itself bigotry. Holding (and expressing aloud) a strongly critical view of a country based on the fact that you don't like the people there (even though you know very few of them), or falsely think that the country is a breeding ground for terrorists, or follows a religion you don't like, or eats food you hate, or wears funny headgear that makes you think they're all the Taliban, or for any other unsupportable reason based on ignorance, could well be bigotry. But to put a country in the spotlight because it does things that a lot of thinking people regard as controversial is not bigotry. Any bigotry comes out in the conversation, not in the concept of the discussion. People who too readily cry "bigot" are generally insecure and in possession of weak argument. If the cap fits...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 01:22 PM

So now the U.S. is about to release Johnathan Pollard, traitor and spy, as part of a "deal" which does not prevent Israel from creating more "settlements" in the occupied territories.

Way to go, USA! USA! Let the government of Israel lead you around by the nose, while continuing to villify Edward Snowden.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 03:36 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-dugard/post_356_b_258206.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 03:28 PM

"Jim, your man Goodman is quite clear that the "apartheid" jibe is completely undeserved, and he should know."
For a start , itisn't a "jibe2 - it is now recurring description of what is happening in Israel; Goodman's article was an acknowledgement of that fact.
What he claims is his opinion, as a supporter of Israel - he went out of his way to make that clear
Unlike you, I do not hide behind the opinions of others but try to understand the facts for myself, which in this case are indisputable because they confirm everything said of Israel elsewhere (which you have denied) and because Goodman (as a supporter of Israel), has no reason to make anything up.
"However, maybe 'apartheid' is a bit of an over-emotional locution due to its S African origins and history"
Apartheid is the term now being used inside and outside Israel to describe what is happening there, I first came across it in an article in Haaretz. As I understand the term, it simply means 'separate development - that was Smutt's intention when he introduced it in South Africa - what happened there was a consequence of Apartheid.
Tis is exactly what is happening in Israel; the forcible separation of Jews and non-Jews, mass eviction of whole cultures, forcible seizure of territory in order to build single-culture cultures - last year saw one of the most iconic forms - segregated transport in some areas.
What Goodman described was Apartheid, whether he accepts that it is that is totally immaterial.
The deliberate moving about of people in order to create a single culture state is classic Apartheid - the consequences may not have reached the level they did in South Africa, but they will if it is allowed to continue.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM

Jim, your man Goodman is quite clear that the "apartheid" jibe is completely undeserved, and he should know.

He understands that it is a lie, cynically told for the political aim of de-legitimising Israel.

You were right to post it and hopefully it means that you are starting to see through the propaganda at last.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 09:44 AM

Well, yes, it is a form of apartheid & much to be deplored therefore: esp as the situation represents that peculiarly vitiating wilfulness of the Israelis (which, as I never tire of saying, is what has turned me right off their demographic), in persisting in putting their settlements in such disputed territory in order to make unnecessary political points, when there was plenty of land available elsewhere which they could equally well have settled without such alienatory destructiveness of decent ordinary people's welfare & livelihoods [I'm back to those intensely symbolic olive trees -- sorry, but they are a bit of a thing of mine!].

However, maybe 'apartheid' is a bit of an over-emotional locution due to its S African origins and history. I can't feel the Israeli actions, deplorable as they are, are quite deserving of such an intensely loaded term, with its overtones & associations of political assassination, gross overuse of capital punishment, and intense exploitation, oppression and deprivation of rights. As with 'Nazi', its use strikes me of being in danger of appearing as counterproductive overstatement. They are thoroughly objectionable indeed: but Netenyahu is not, surely, quite in the Hitler, or even the Malan, league of objectionability!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 07:07 AM

As I said - a rose by any other name.
The writer may not believe that what he describes is Apartheid (he wouldn't - he supports Israel)- but what he describes is exactly what it is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 03:29 AM

Wise words Jim.
Thank you for sharing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 03:14 AM

From an Israeli supporter
Jim Carroll
A rose by any other name
LOSING THE PROPAGANDA WAR
JERUSALEM — ON Feb. 4, 1965, as a teenager, I left South Africa, the country of my birth, for a new home in a place I'd never been — Israel.
I loved South Africa, but I loathed the apartheid system. In Israel, I saw a fresh start for a people rising from the ashes of the Holocaust, a place of light and justice, as opposed to the darkness and oppression of apartheid South Africa.
Now, almost 50 years later, after decades of arguing that Israel is not an apartheid state and that it's a calumny and a lie to say so, I sense that we may be well down the road to being seen as one. That's because, in this day and age, brands are more powerful than truth and, inexplicably, blindly, Israel is letting itself be branded an apartheid state — and even encouraging it.
In apartheid South Africa, people disappeared in the night without the protection of any legal process and were never heard from again. There was no freedom of speech or expression and more "judicial" hangings were reportedly carried out there than in any other place on earth. There was no free press and, until January 1976, no public television.
Masses of black people were forcibly moved from tribal lands to arid Bantustans in the middle of nowhere. A "pass system" stipulated where blacks could live and work, splitting families and breaking down social structures, to provide cheap labor for the mines and white-owned businesses, and a plentiful pool of domestic servants for the white minority. Those found in violation were arrested, usually lashed, and sentenced to stints of hard labor for a few shillings per prisoner per day, payable to the prison service.
None of this even remotely exists in Israel or the occupied territories. But, increasingly, in the mind of the world it does. This is because of Israel's own actions and a vigorous campaign by those who oppose its occupation of Palestinians' land and, in some cases, Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. They understand that delegitimization is Israel's soft belly and apartheid the buzzword to make it happen.
International isolation is potentially more dangerous for Israel than the Iranian nuclear program. The Palestinians and their supporters, particularly the young generation, some of whom have graduated from the best universities in the world, have come to realize that the stones of the first intifada and the suicide bombers of the second are yesterday's weapons in yesterday's war.
Boycott, divestment and sanctions are now the way they seek to end the Israeli occupation or Jewish Israel itself. Their message has started to resonate with trade unions, churches, universities and international companies in Europe and the United States, who see Israel as oppressing Palestinians and violating their human rights.
A Dutch pension giant's decision last month to divest from Israel's five largest banks because of their ties to occupation rang warning bells in Israel's business community and the Treasury. According to the finance minister, even a partial European boycott would cost Israel 20 billion shekels (about $5.7 billion) in exports annually and almost 10,000 jobs. But the greatest damage is self-inflicted.
The "apartheid wall," "apartheid roads," colonization, administrative arrests, travel restrictions, land confiscations and house demolitions are the clay apartheid comparisons are made of, and cannot be hidden or denied, for as long as Israel continues with the status quo.
Military occupation comes with checkpoints, antiterrorist barriers, military courts, armed soldiers and tanks. That's the reality, no matter what your politics, and just the ammunition the Palestinians and their supporters need in their new war.
In the coming weeks, the United States is expected to put forward a framework for peace between Israel and the Palestinians, brokered by Secretary of State John Kerry. The Palestinians have said that if the talks fail to produce an agreement, they will take the battle against Israel and for their independence to the International Criminal Court and the United Nations and its various organizations, and fight for sanctions and boycotts, which they hope will force Israel, like apartheid South Africa before it, to its knees. As South Africa learned in the 1980s, possessing nuclear weapons may deter foes on the battlefield, but it doesn't help you win a propaganda war.
Unfortunately, Israel is doing almost everything it can to help its opponents achieve their goal. Instead of focusing on peace talks, Israel continuously signals its intention to build more settlement housing, most recently on Jan. 10, when plans for 1,400 new homes in East Jerusalem and the West Bank were announced. Instead of welcoming Eritrean and Sudanese refugees seeking asylum — the way that a former Likud Party prime minister, Menachem Begin, did in 1977 with the Vietnamese boat people, saying they reminded him of Jewish refugees during the Holocaust — Israel is confining today's asylum-seekers to a camp in the desert, providing reams of footage to those who want to prove Israel is a racist society.
And it didn't help when, on Dec. 15, a ministerial committee approved a bill that would impose heavy, punitive taxes on groups like B'Tselem, which tracks alleged human rights violations in the occupied territories, and Adalah, the legal center for minority rights in Israel.
As anyone who has bought a "Gucci" bag in a Bangkok market can tell you, it's all in the label. And the apartheid label is beginning to stick — fair or not. It carries with it huge consequences for Israel, which the country's inward-looking leaders seem impervious to. They have yet to understand that on this new battlefield, tanks don't count and the use of force, sure to be televised, plays into the hands of the enemy. It's a war Israel cannot win unless it makes peace.
Hirsh Goodman is the author, most recently, of "The Anatomy of Israel's Survival," and the editor in chief of The Jerusalem Report from 1990 to 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 05:08 PM

It is initiatives like that of Ira Weiss, tireless advocate for peace between Jews and Palestinians, that give me hope:

"I feel less pessimistic today. Yesterday I took Shireen and Ophir to the National Zoo to see the pandas. Shireen and Ophir are 13 year old girls who are visiting Washington this week. Shireen lives in Jericho, Palestine. Ophir lives in Kiryat Gat, Israel. While spending the day with, them it was impossible not to notice how they have bonded to one another with that powerful emotional glue that only thirteen-year-old girls share. Shireen and Ophir play soccer together in a program sponsored by the Perez Center for Peace. The opportunity to play soccer together allowed them not merely to overcome the fear and hostility they had towards the other while she was still nameless, but to become fast friends, even though they cannot to talk to one another. Shireen understands and speaks only Arabic. Ophir understands and speaks only Hebrew and English.

It is not possible to remain cynical about peace between Israelis and Palestinians when you visit the National Zoo with kids like Shireen and Ophir."

Dropbox

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 07:34 AM

"Personally, Israel's kindness to Syrian refugees has demonstrated to me that Syrians and Israelis need not be adversaries in the future, that there is space and possibility for an accommodation on even the most seemingly intractable of issues. There is goodwill and humanity on the Israeli side, despite everything I have been taught to believe during my life."

"Some Syrians, and indeed Arabs, are of the opinion that one cannot reconcile even to the slightest degree with Israel and hope to remain loyal to our Palestinian brethren and their aspirations. Frankly, it would not be unfair to say that this sort of hard line stance is most popular among those who have in reality done crap-all in a practical sense for our Palestinian brethren."

"When the war in Syria is over, one of the things that I as a (hopefully) former refugee would want to see addressed, is the disgraceful treatment of our Palestinian brothers and sisters in the Arab world. If it is solidarity with Palestinians that certain Arabs seek, then nothing can improve the Palestinians' situation more quickly than by granting them the right to work, study, travel and private property ownership in the Arab countries they currently reside in.

"Because frankly, I doubt there is a single Palestinian in the Levant or North Africa who wouldn't swap places with an Arab-Israeli in a heart beat."

There is goodwill and humanity on the Israeli side

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 08:07 AM

10 Images of Jewish-Muslim Unity that go Beyond the Headlines

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 06:15 PM

...who call Israel an apartheid state ... why do you think they do that?

'Cause its true, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 05:08 PM

Yet in spite of all that Keith there are posters here who call Israel an apartheid state and compare it to Nazi Germany, why do you think they do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 05:07 PM

Keep goin' idiot- you're on a roll. Or, re-read my post this time for comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 01:50 PM

Arabs in Israel have equal rights under the law
Arabs in Israel can vote for whoever they want
Arabs in Israel can worship freely
Arabs in Israel are entitled to the full same state education as all other Israelis
Arabs are members of the Israeli parliament and ministers in the government

Israeli society gives more opportunity to Arabs than do Arab states to their own citizens. Israeli Arabs and Muslims have the right to vote and to hold public office, like every other Israeli citizen. Nearly one-10th of the Knesset, Israel's parliament, is Arab; there is a mosque in the Knesset building for those who are Muslim. One of the justices of Israel's Supreme Court is an Arab Muslim; so is a minister in the Israeli cabinet. Arabs are active in Israeli commerce, media, education, and law.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 01:05 PM

Singling out one country is bigotry.

No-one here is doing that except you & Keith- singling out one counmtry to absolve, no matter what they do.

Hi, bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 12:59 PM

Right or wrong this is the unfortunate reality in most of the world today. Singling out one country is bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 12:17 PM

And that makes it OK for whatever the Israeli Govt. cares to do, right BooBad?

But thanks for agreeing that Keith's contention is universal bullshit.

the actual situation on the ground is equal rights enshrined in law.

Gee, Keith, as only one example of thousands worldwide across the centuries (milennia?)- the U.S. Civil Rights Act was passed in 1866 & the 14th Ammendment to the Constitution in 1868.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 08:09 AM

"Keith, The actual situation on the ground and reality (which I realize is not your strong suit) put the lie to your bullshit."

Kind of like most everywhere else in the world, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 01:00 AM

Greg, the actual situation on the ground is equal rights enshrined in law.
You were wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 02:16 PM

Keith, The actual situation on the ground and reality (which I realize is not your strong suit) put the lie to your bullshit.

Rave on.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 01:54 PM

All, Jews or Arabs, Palestinian or not, have equal rights in Israel.
Denying that makes you wrong again Greg.
BWAA haa ha ha hahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 01:48 PM

Israel is already a "true democracy" where all, Jew or Arab, have equal rights.


BWAA haa ha ha hahahaha

Guess the Palestinians aren't Arabs in your book then, eh Keith?

Now, I suppose "all historians" support your skewed view of reality, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 01:28 PM

Every country has a few fanatical racists.
Why, in your first sentence, single out Israel?

A better solution for Israel is to become a true democracy, perhaps socialist democracy, wherein Zionists and Palestinians would have equal polity,

I do not know what a "socialist democracy" is, but Israel is already a "true democracy" where all, Jew or Arab, have equal rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM

There are those in the Zionist community who have gone on record in the media by stating that they are better than their Palestinian neighbors and hence have a right to dominate them by whatever means. This is analogous to the white racism of South Africa, a Christian orientation that made the same claim about African people and turned them into second or third class citizens.

A two-state solution would work unless it became "bantustans" for Palestinians propagating the warped Zionist "master race" notion.

A better solution for Israel is to become a true democracy, perhaps socialist democracy, wherein Zionists and Palestinians would have equal polity, but as long as there are some Zionists who, through Christian fundamentalist support, pour cold water on this idea saying that it is "impossible', a faith-based notion on their part, chances for Mid-East peace is actually impossible.

The US is not an honest broker in peace negotiations which are dominated by figures who adhere to Christian doctrine and biblical prophecy about Jewish people.


Zionist expansionism and denying the "right of return" is a dead-end street for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 05:41 PM

"A majority of Israelis and Palestinians, 63 percent and 53%, respectively, support a two-state solution, according to a survey released on Tuesday." - 1st of Jan 2014

http://www.geneva-accord.org/mainmenu/hebrew-u-survey-finds-most-israelis-and-palestinians-support-two-state-solution

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 08:53 AM

"Inequality is a fact of life here, and this, too, is visible in the garbage—particularly in the uncollected garbage on the streets of some Arab neighborhoods, which also tend to lack sidewalks and parks. But in recent years life in Jerusalem has been getting not worse but slowly, markedly better. New infrastructure projects like a light-rail line serving Jewish and Arab neighborhoods and a bike and pedestrian path running a few miles through other Jewish and Arab neighborhoods are leading to more mixing in public spaces. State-funded health care in Arab neighborhoods is improving. One hears more Arabic than ever spoken in predominantly Jewish commercial areas. More Arab residents are requesting Israeli citizenship and taking the Israeli high-school matriculation exams. Jews and Arabs are not friendly with each other, as a rule, but there are many thousands of interactions between them each day, and nearly all of them are uneventful.

What we have here is not peace but peacefulness—a budding, breakable, imperfect coexistence obvious to anyone sensitive to the pulse of the city. It reflects a broader phenomenon in Israel: According to a poll published last month by Ha'aretz, when Arab Israelis were asked if they were "generally satisfied" with their lives in Israel, 79 percent said yes. That is not an uncomplicated "yes," but neither is that statistic insignificant."

Tablet

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 03:22 AM

Piss off Keith - your case is dead in the water (Israel just made sure of that) and all the denials in the world won't remove what you have written and have had presented back to you over and over and over.... again
Learn to live with it - it will come back to bite your bum as long as you continue to dominate this forum with your bigotry and racism if I have anything to do with it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:56 AM

Jim, it would be "utterly farcical" to promote a view and then deny it.
I don't.
I defend what I do say and rubbish your claims that I have entirely different views to those I express.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 05:08 PM

Meet Anett Haskia, Israeli Arab and proud Zionist: Israel is freedom!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 04:14 PM

"Try to be rational for a moment Jim."
No Keith - you be rational
You have posted every single opinion and more on that list - at least once - half of them you have confirmed over the last few months, several on this and other threads currently running
On the number of occasioned I have pasted one in front of you you have abandoned your denial and confirmed that you stick top your opinion - an utterly farcical example being your denial (as here) of your supporting supplying Assad with riot control equipment - you then went off and dug up an obscure Australian pacifists site to confirm that yor claim was valid because they (supposedly) agreed with you PLEASE STOP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF BY DENYING EASILY RETRIEVABLE STATEMENTS YOU HAVE MADE - AND PLEASE STOP ATTEMPTING TO IMPLICATE A FRIEND WHO HAS SHOWN YOU NOTHING BUT KINDNESS AND SUPPORT FOR YOUR EVIL RANTINGS WHEN THE REST OF US KNOW YOU TO BE AN UTTER SHIT - IT'S DISGUSTING AND DEGRADING TO BOTH OF YOU
You really are the pits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 01:57 PM

Jim, it was me who told you that the democratic process in Israel, unique in that region, had chosen not to instigate the plan.
As you know and often tell us, Israel takes no notice of outside opinion and especially not the UN with its built in anti-Israel bias.

Re. my views, if I had ever expressed views like that, a man like Michael would have nothing to do with me.
I would have nothing to do with me!

Try to be rational for a moment Jim.
Why would I post all those things and then deny them?
Why would anyone?

I defend everything I post, but I have never posted that shit you always accuse me of when a thread goes against you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 11:48 AM

"Jim, if I had expressed views like that, a man like Michael would have nothing to do with me."
Which of these to you claim you not expressed and I'll try to jog your memory
Always happy to oblige
"I defend everything I post"
Course you do and I'm delighted that you do - all helps with the CV
I hope Mike is as happy at being implicated in your disgusting statements as I am disgusted that you should attempt to use him in the way you are
"I have never posted the shit you always accuse me of when a thread goes against you."
and you always make the same claim - you have just had your arse put in a sling by Israel's abandoning its ethnic cleansing intentions - how am I losing this argument?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 11:06 AM

The problem always lies with people who see things in black and white and Manichaean
narrow thinking. There are atrocities on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, violence emanating from both quarters, jingoism and epithets, "my way or the highway" thinking and so-called factual data coming from editorials rather than honest reporting.

The fuel to the conflict is being lit by Fundamentalist Christians who are under the delusion that their god wants Israel to survive so it can be destroyed later by the return of a despotic Jesus who will annhilalate Jews if they don't convert, all this written in an absurd text called the King James bible, notably Revelations.

BDS attempts to interject rational behavior not by wanting to destroy Israel but to bring some sense to this country before it destroys itself.

Many rational Jews understand this and are critical of Netanyahu's paranoia and heavy handed dictatorial policies.

His insistence on expansionism through the settlers encroachment onto Palestinian land can only bring about condemnation from the world especially by those who value human rights.

However, BDS attempts to heal the breach by non-violence, always distorted by the media and religious fanatics as somehow the opposite of what it really is, and bolstered by misinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 10:34 AM

Jim, if I had expressed views like that, a man like Michael would have nothing to do with me.

Try to be rational for a moment Jim.
Why would I post all those things and then deny them?
Why would anyone?

I defend everything I post, but I have never posted the shit you always accuse me of when a thread goes against you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 10:00 AM

" I retain my respect for you in that particular, most certainly"
For the reasons I have said Mike - thirty years of work with Travellers gave me a close enough view of how bigoted attitudes like Keith's have affected their lives, some we never spoke to in depth, Like Jeannie and the Stewarts, have confirmed our own experiences - they have all commented on it publicly at one time or another - you must have heard the radio ballad.
In supporting Keith (quite stridently) you have, as far as I am concerned, sold out all those people.
Keith is an extreme bigot on Travellers as well as on other matters - he has your support, good enough for me.
I had nothing to say to you on politics, now I have nothing to say to you on music, which saddens me.
"Why would I post all those things and then deny them?"
Because that's what you do interminably
Yours statements on British fascists is a matter of record
Your statement about implants is a matter of record
Your support for supplying Assad with sniper bullets, riot equipment and chemicals is not only a matter of record, but you have reiterated it and confirmed your support for it within the last month
Your support for a racist site is a matter of recent record
Your support for Israeli ethnic cleansing is a matter of record on this thread.
You opened a thread to deny the existence of No Traveller signs and continue to do so despite our personal experience (as recent as last year) and the mountain of official evidence from groups like The Runnymede Trust and the high-ranking Government Civil Servant who documented Gypsy persecution, Sir Angus Fraser - you continue to make those claims on the basis that you and a handful of others "have never seen one".
Your legendary efforts to defend Israeli support for the mass murder of refugees is a matter of record.
Your defence of the use of chemicals on Palestinians and on Bedouins is a matter of record.
Your support for allowing Governments to move people about like chess-pieces can be found withing a handful of posting up this thread.
Your defence of Israel moving Bedouins onto a toxic rubbish dump is a matter of record.
Have I missed anything - if not, I'll go and dig up some more if you wish?
Now exactly what have I led about?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 08:15 AM

Jordanian sheikh: Allah gave the land of Israel to the Jews
Al Quds and other Arab media outlets published this amazing article this weekend:

    Sheikh Ahmad Adwan, who introduces himself as a Muslim scholar who lives in Jordan, said on his personal Facebook page that there is no such thing as "Palestine" in the Koran. Allah has assigned the Holy Land to the Children of Israel until the Day of Judgment (Koran, Sura 5 – "The Sura of the Table", Verse 21), and "We made the Children of Israel the inheritors (of the land)" (Koran, Sura 26 – "The Sura of the Poets", Verse 59).

    "I say to those who distort their Lord's book, the Koran: From where did you bring the name Palestine, you liars, you accursed, when Allah has already named it "The Holy Land" and bequeathed it to the Children of Israel until the Day of Judgment. There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in the Koran. Your demand for the Land of Israel is a falsehood and it constitutes an attack on the Koran, on the Jews and their land. Therefore you won't succeed, and Allah will fail you and humiliate you, because Allah is the one who will protect them (i.e. the Jews)."

    The sheikh added: "The Palestinians are the killers of children, the elderly and women. They attack the Jews and then they use those (children, the elderly and women) as human shields and hide behind them, without mercy for their children as if they weren't their own children, in order to tell the public opinion that the Jews intended to kill them. This is exactly what I saw with my own two eyes in the 70's, when they attacked the Jordanian army, which sheltered and protected them. Instead of thanking it (the Jordanian army), they brought their children forward to (face) the Jordanian army, in order to make the world believe that the army kills their children. This is their habit and custom, their viciousness, their having hearts of stones towards their children, and their lying to public opinion, in order to get its support."

    It is worth mentioning, that the above mentioned sheikh visited Israel and met Jewish religious scholars. The "Israel in Arabic" site conducted an interview with him, in which he said that the reason for his openness towards the Jewish people "comes from my acknowledgment of their sovereignty on their land and my belief in the Koran, which told us and emphasized this in many places, like His (Allah's) saying "Oh People (i.e the Children of Israel), enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned unto you" (Koran, Sura 5 – "The Sura of the Table", Verse 21), and His saying "We made the Children of Israel the inheritors (of the land)" (Koran, Sura 26 – "The Sura of the Poets", Verse 59) and many other verses.

    He (Adwan) added: "(The Jews) are peaceful people who love peace, who are not hostile and are not aggressors, but if they are attacked, they defend themselves while causing as little damage to the attackers as possible. It is an honor for them that Allah has chosen them over the worlds – meaning over the people and the Jinns until the Day of Judgment. I made the reasons for Allah's choice clear in my books and pamphlets. When Allah chose them, He didn't do so out of politeness, and He wasn't unjust other peoples, it is just that they (the Jews) deserved this."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 06:55 AM

Try to be rational for a moment Jim.
Why would I post all those things and then deny them?
Why would anyone?

I defend everything I post, but I have never posted the shit you always accuse me of when a thread goes against you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 06:54 AM

I don't see why we shouldn't still exchange musical views, Jim; I retain my respect for you in that particular, most certainly. But I agree that politically & ideologically we start from such different preconceptions & premises that trying to communicate on topics concerning these is only likely to exacerbate hostility, and probably best left. We each know pretty well what the other thinks by now, and our discourse is just getting more & more disagreeably & predictably contentious.

Good wishes notwithstanding...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 04:48 AM

"And we'll Fight the Blacks and Muslims with a bank of denials"
Working on the rest of the song
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 04:48 AM

"And we'll Fight the Blacks and Muslims with a bank of denials"
Working on the rest of the song
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 04:43 AM

All lies Jim.
You can not challenge what I really say.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 04:24 AM

Game over with you morons Keith
Israel once again has attempted to introduce ethnic cleansing laws onto their statute books and for the second time, has been forced to withdraw them due to world-wide outrage and U.N. pressure - even the U.S. refused to cross the line this time
You supported their proposals and have not just been left with egg on your face, but are now totally egg-bound.
You fascist tendencies have been obvious for a long time now:
Your defending the use of chemical sprays and water cannon on Bedouin settlements
Your supporting the moving of Bedouin communities onto toxic sites.
Your defence of Israel's part in the massacre of thousands of unarmed refugees - men women and children alike   
Your support for wartime Fascism at the time the Jews were being herded into extermination camps by describing their viciously Anti-Semitic outpourings and their moves to form a provisional Government "when Herr Hitler wins" as "harmless"   
Your describing Pakistanis as implanted potential perverts
Your support for Assad by proposing that he be supplied with riot equipment to neutalise opposition to his regime and herd the ringleaders into his torture chambers.
Your defending the selling of sniper bullets probably used to traine the Homs snipers and chemicals that were almost certainly helpful to his building up his massive chemical weapon stockpile.
Your openly supporting the outpourings of an extremist racist site without either examining it or explaining your support except "I remember the church attack" - nothing more substantial than that to justify 1,000 claims by these scum.
Your support for the Dale Farm evictions, your denial of researched evidence of the no-Traveller signs, your suggestion that Governments are entitled to move Travellers about like chess pieces
Plenty more - but that'll do for now.
All this is a matter of Mudcat record, but please, please, please deny anything or all of it again and give me an opportunity to put it up again.
You are a sad-sick individual, Boo-Boo is a little clown only good for light relief.
I have to admit, I really don't understand Mike's part in all this.
Both he and I have a passion for and have been involved in folk-song for large parts of our lives.
Both of us are fully aware of the contribution Travellers have made to out enjoyment and understanding of those songs - Jeannie Roberts, The Stewarts, Duncan Williamson, Johnny Doran, John Doherty, Phoebe, Jasper and Levi Smith - all of those wonderful people who gave us our songs and music.   
In the thirty odd years Pat and I worked with Travellers, we were told hundreds of times of the treatment they received at the hands of the uncaring and antagonistic British and Irish establishments - their being treated as non-people, as sub humans, harassed and persecuted.
In spite of all this, on the topic of Israel's attempting to ghettoise entire ethnic Travelling communities (and finally being forced to abandon those attempts by world pressure) Mike chooses to once again join you in your sordid and vicious campaigns.
I neither understands how he reconciles that support, either from a musical point of view or a personal one
Ah well
We really have nothing to say to each other about anything Mike
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 01:50 AM

Those fascists can be sooooooo sharp!
Did you feel a big prick Jim, or just a little one?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:53 PM

'fascist pricks
Jim Carroll'
.,,.

Ooh, dear. Hope it didn't hurt too much & he didn't bleed excessive...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 11:44 AM

"you thre morens" hahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 11:32 AM

"I suggest that he stick with what he is good at, you know"
I do and have managed to pull you thre morens out of your closet - fascist pricks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 11:09 AM

Oh look at the bitter little man's attempt at humour. I suggest that he stick with what he is good at, you know; name calling, invective, lies, hate, bigotry etc......his stock-in-trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 08:57 AM

Have you decided who's Curley, Larry or Moe yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 08:10 AM

"ineffectual grinding of the Carrollian dentures!!!"

Hahaha....good one, thanks for the laugh Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:23 AM

Hohohohoho ————


can there be a more delightful sound in the entire Universe

than the

ineffectual grinding of the Carrollian dentures!!!


teeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee.............................

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:11 AM

☞〠☜

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 04:56 AM

It would appear that the Israeli Government have now withdrawn The Prawer plan - the bill you are all vigorously supporting
The Knesset has probably been infiltrated by Anti-Semites
What a shower of clowns you three morons are - good entertainment value though.
You really should do something about that lapse into second-childhood Mike - it gets a little embarrassing to see one of our better-educated behaving like a child
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 04:34 AM

Yep - expected a non- response Mike
I once hoped that you wouldn't allow this moron to drag you down to his level - it seems you were probably there first
You really should be ashamed of yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 03:48 AM

Found you very helpful & interesting on the Paddy West thread, mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 03:42 AM

"Because I don't like fascists and ethnic cleansing - I don't like peole who use this forum being used for delivering messages supporting ethnic cleansing"
.,,.,.
Oh deary-weary-me. You don't like it? Ah diddums den! And who's supposed to lose sleep or give a fluttering-uno-wot over what the great James Carroll doesn't happen to like, then? God, what insufferable conceit, to think we all care what the monster-〠-ed Carroll "likes"! Well, I don't happen to like self-righteous predictably doctrinaire verbose little prigs; but I refrain from proclaiming the fact incessantly to the extent of hijacking threads even on topics where not germane [see Xtn Persectn], to the acute boredom of the entire population, you egocentric little personage you. We've all got the message now as to what a right place your gigantically
everybody·except·those·who·won't·take·you·at·yr·own·inflated·ultraconceited·valuation-loving

♥ is. So why not just shut up for just a millisecond & give us all a rest from what the ineffable Carroll J doesn't happen to like, before we all perish in a pestilence of extremest ennui.

Conceited, selfrighteous egocentric selfregarding little prig!

Shazam! Vanish! Avaunt! Off-piss!

~M.the.Gdn·☤~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 03:01 AM

"Extreme racist sites -"
LIE
"Support for arming Assad -"
LIE
"now support for an open policy of ethnic cleansing"
LIE

From your link Jim.
"The Bedouin resettlement authority said, "The plan is groundbreaking and for the most part legalizes current residences with the creation of rural settlement models, in accordance with the needs of the Bedouin sector." It added that the plan includes economic development, infrastructure, education and employment solutions."

But then, it never happened did it Jim?
"The Prawer Plan called for Israel to officially recognize and register the vast majority of Bedouin settlements throughout the south, and compensate the residents of 35 unrecognized villages — some 30,000 to 40,000 people — who were to be moved off state-owned land into towns built for them.

"Several days ago, the chairman of the Knesset coalition announced that there is not a majority supporting the bill in its present form," Begin said, and indicated that there was a movement afoot to change the bill.

Begin told the assembled reporters that the efforts to "introduce far-reaching changes in the government's formulation" led him to call for its shelving.

"Since the bill reached the Knesset," he said, "all sorts of interest groups have gotten involved, trying to take advantage of the plight of the Negev Bedouin in order to achieve political gain."

"We must not allow a hostile takeover of the bill. We must not allow its kidnapping and its distortion," he said."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 02:47 AM

"Christ, but how can you bear to be such a boring old fart!"
Because I don't like fascists and ethnic cleansing - I don't like peole who use this forum being used for delivering messages supporting ethnic cleansing and I certainly have no time for spineless creeps who lurk behind the scenes egging on the morons.
Boring it is I'm afraid Mike.
Extreme racist sites - Support for arming Assad - now support for an open policy of ethnic cleansing.
How can you support these fascist creeps
"As Jane Austen put it"
Cliché - moi?
Pompous little Thatcherite/Pinocheist pratt
Happy Bedouins
It used to be "Arbeit Macht Frei" - now it's the Prawer bill
Your trio seem to have gone the whole five yards
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4459635,00.html
Yup - I'd rather be boring.
Checkmate, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 05:41 PM

...and

Into the Valley of Death
Rode the...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 05:39 PM

"I will be interested to see if your fairy godmother ever has the temerity to show his face in your support ever again - fascist bastard!
Jim Carroll"
.,,.
Suppose you mean me Jim. You usually do.

Christ, but how can you bear to be such a boring old fart!

As Jane Austen put it, & I never tire of quoting: you do not "deserve the compliment of rational opposition."

So just go back to sleep, eh?, there's a dear little fellow.

Ho-hum···

☤☤☤☤☤☤

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 02:48 PM

"Arbeit Macht Frei" appears to be what you re trying to say.
No Jim.

Re your site.
"A 2005 article in The Jewish Tribune criticized GlobalResearch.ca as "rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial." B'nai Brith Canada had complained that there were comments on a forum that questioned how many Jews died in the Holocaust. Website editor Michel Chossudovsky responded that there was a disclaimer that the website was not to be held responsible for the views expressed in the forum, and he had the comment removed. He also said that he was of Jewish heritage and would be one of the last people to condone antisemitic views.[3] The same article also reported that B'nai Brith Canada wrote a letter to the University of Ottawa (Chossudovsky's former employer) asking for the university "to conduct its own investigation of this propagandist site.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 02:42 PM

"Bedouin Israelis are the fastest growing population group in the world."
"Arbeit Macht Frei" appears to be what you re trying to say.
By the away BoBoo - look up the term 'kapo' if you are not already familiar with it.
I' well aware of the Bedouin Uncle Tom who has been bought off.
I will be interested to see if your fairy godmother ever has the temerity to show his face in your support ever again - fascist bastard!
Jim Carroll

Some happy Bedouins
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israels-begin-prawer-plan-global-protests-against-bedouin-ethnic-cleansing/5360068

Around 40,000 Bedouins are targeted. They're Israeli citizens. They're considered nonpersons. They're treated that way. They're denied all rights.

The so-called Begin-Prawer Plan (Law for Arranging Bedouin Settlement in the Negev) is ruthlessly racist. It legitimizes ethnic cleansing. It wants Bedouin land for exclusive Jewish development.

It authorizes destroying Bedouin homes. It calls for dozens of villages to be leveled. It sanctions mass ethnic cleansing on a scale not seen since 1948. Israeli authorities are trampling on the rights of their own citizens.

According to Association for Civil Rights in Israel attorney Rawia Aburabia:
Israel's plan "will cause the displacement and forced eviction of dozens of villages and tens of thousands of Bedouin residents, dispossessing them of their property and historical rights to their lands, destroying the social fabric of their communities, and sealing the fate of thousands of families into poverty and unemployment."
"All of this while the government simultaneously promotes the establishment of new Jewish communities, some of which are even slated to be built on the fresh ruins of Bedouin villages."
"Rather than displacing these communities, the government should seek a true and just solution that facilitates the inclusion of Bedouin citizens into the civil and social fabric of the Negev by recognizing the unrecognized villages and acknowledging their legal ownership rights to their lands."
"For years, the Bedouin citizens have lived in (unrecognized) villages without basic conditions while around them more and more Jewish communities are built."
"The government must decide whether to seek a true and just solution that facilitates the inclusion of Bedouin in the Negev as equal citizens or a belligerent plan, that only increases the alienation, hostility and poverty in these communities."
Bimkom is an Israeli human right group. Nili Baruch is one of its urban planners. "The key to a solution to the issue of the unrecognized villages in the Negev is planning," she said.
"A plan to formally recognize the unrecognized villages (such as the one initiated by the village residents themselves) will afford them their rights to education, health, adequate infrastructure, and sources of employment."
"Such a process would not only be the most likely to succeed, but also the most just, coming after years of neglect of the unrecognized villages, most of which have been in existence since before the state of Israel was established."
In September 2011, Netanyahu's cabinet approved Begin-Prawer. It's part of a longterm ethnic cleansing agenda. It aims to Judaize areas for exclusive Jewish development.

In June 2013, it passed its first Knesset reading. Two more are required. Final passage could come any time.
Yaron Ben Ezra heads the World Zionist Organization's settlement division. He represents its racist policy.
He calls building new Negev Jewish communities important "to prevent the continued invasion of state lands by the Bedouin and to prevent the creation of Bedouin or Arab (territorial) contiguity."
Israel considers Bedouins foreign invaders, squatters. They lived on their land for centuries before Jews arrived. It doesn't matter.
Israeli revisionists rewrite history their way. They violate international laws, standards, and fundamental democratic principles doing so.
Bedouins are considered nonpersons. They live in so-called "unrecognized villages." The term is Orwellian in its worst sense. How can real people in real communities not exist?
They're considered internal refugees. They're victims of Israel's "War of Independence." It was premeditated aggression.
Nuremberg Tribunal Chief Justice Robert Jackson called these type wars the supreme international crime against peace. Israel is flagrantly guilty multiple times. So is America.
Israel's 1965 Planning and Construction Law delegitimized Bedouin villages. It established a regulatory framework and national plan for future development.
It zoned land for residential, agricultural and industrial use. It prohibited unlicensed construction. It banned it on agricultural land.
It stipulated where Arabs and Jews could live. South African apartheid worked the same way. Israel's version is much worse. It reflects slow-motion genocide.
Palestinian communities got no room to expand. Residential land was rezoned for agricultural use.
Entire communities became unrecognized. Homes and other structures were declared illegal. At least 95% of them existed before the 1965 law passed. It didn't matter. It doesn't now.
Residential and other property on these lands are subject to demolition. Their inhabitants face displacement.
New communities are prohibited. Unrecognized ones are denied essential services.
They include clean drinking water, electricity, roads, transport, sanitation, education, healthcare, postal and telephone service, refuse removal, and more.
Under Israel's Planning and Construction Law, they're illegal. Denying fundamental rights spurns international laws and standards.
Israel's Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom is violated. It authorizes overturning laws contrary to dignity, life, freedom, privacy, property, and right to leave and enter Israel. It states:
"There shall be no violation of the life, body or dignity of any person. All persons are entitled to protection" to preserve them.
"There shall be no deprivation or restriction of the liberty of a person by imprisonment, arrest, extradition or otherwise."
Israeli Basic Law ignores equality. Rights apply solely to Jews. Bedouins targeted for displacement face imprisonment and fines for failing to leave.
Israel considers itself a Jewish state. Arabs are unwelcome, unwanted, unprotected, and unequal under state law.
Bedouins are nonpersons on their own land. They're considered intruders. They're denied all rights. They face constant harassment.
They face imminent loss of their homes, land, communities and freedom. Their lives are at risk when Israel targets them violently.
Negev Bedouins number up to around 100,000. They're all targeted for displacement. About 40,000 face an imminent risk.
International human rights groups condemned Begin-Prawer as blatantly racist. Philip Luther heads Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Program. Last August he said:
"The Prawer-Begin plan is a blatant example of Israel's discriminatory policies towards its Palestinian minority. It must be dropped immediately."
World leaders able to act responsibly do nothing. Israel's Bedouin displacement policy is longstanding. It followed its War of Independence.
During the early 1950s, most Negev Bedouins were relocated. A "permitted" "Siyagh" region was set aside for them. It was in Jordanian-controlled West Bank territory.
Bedouins incrementally returned to their ancestral lands. They struggled to remain there. They continue doing so.
In the late 1990s, Israel escalated efforts to remove them. Increasing numbers of demolition orders were issued.
In 2002, herbicide spraying contaminated their land. Crops were spoiled. Livestock died. Health problems surfaced.
Massive ethnic cleansing plans were drafted. They culminated in Begin-Prawer. It's a landmark racist law.
Palestinians, human rights groups, and supportive activists struggle to prevent its enactment. Tens of thousands of Bedouin futures are at stake.
On November 29, the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign urged human rights supporters to sign it anti-Begin/Prawer letter. It said in part:
"If implemented, this plan will result in the destruction of more than 35 Palestinian towns and villages in Al-Naqab (Negev) in the south of Israel and the expulsion and confinement of up to 70,000 Palestinian Bedouins."
"It means forced displacement of Palestinians from their homes and land, and systematic discrimination and separation."
"The Israeli government is pushing ahead with this plan despite the Palestinian Bedouin community's complete rejection of the plan, and condemnation from human rights groups."
Activists declared November 30 an international "day of rage." Protests were held in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, Gaza, Cairo, other regional cities, Berlin, London, Rome, Paris, the Hague, other European cities, Montreal, Toronto, Washington and elsewhere.
A Bedouin statement said:
"We are human beings and citizens, but the Prawer Plan treats us like animals who can be moved around from place to place with no consultation or regard for our wishes."
"This Saturday, we will stand with our supporters from near and afar, and call for the recognition of the villages denied recognition and for a halt to this cruel plan."
International law prohibits forced displacements. Fourth Geneva's Article 49 states:
"Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive."
Begin-Prawer is a crime against humanity. The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC) says so.
Article 7 prohibits "deportation or forcible transfer of (a) population." It forbids "the crime of apartheid."
It bans "other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health."
It calls these practices "crimes against humanity." Israel turns truth on its head. It claims it wants to "modernize" and "alleviate" Bedouin conditions.
Police states operate this way. They try justifying the unjustifiable. They ignore international laws and norms.
They do it unaccountably. They enforce policy through the barrel of a gun. They do it ruthlessly.
Several Palestinian youth groups issued a statement saying:
"No one will live quietly and comfortably as long as a single family in Negev faces the threat of displacement."
"No one in this country will enjoy freedom and dignity if we Palestinians, especially in Negev, do not live in dignity on our land."
Israel prohibits the right to demonstrate. Military Order No 101 bans gatherings of more than 10 Palestinians without IDF permission.
Violators face stiff fines and imprisonment up to 10 years. It applies to Jews supporting Arabs.
On Saturday, Israeli security forces attacked peaceful protesters. They did so violently. They fired rubber bullets and stun grenades. They used batons, tear gas and skunk water. Dozens were arrested.
Arab Knesset members Ahmed al-Tibi and Jamal Zahalka joined demonstrators. Al-Tibi said:
The protest was meant to emphasize that Prawer will not pass on the ground, even if it does in the Knesset, because it's essential goal is to displace the indigenous Arabs from their towns."
"This resolution will not be respected because it is racist."
According to Zahalka:
"The plan will lead to a confrontation between Israeli and indigenous people in the Negev, and Israel will have to deal with the repercussions."
Palestinians endured Israeli repression since 1948. State-sponsored terror is official policy. Israel's democracy is fake.
Peace is a non-starter. Brutal occupation is a daily reality. World leaders able to help turn a blind eye. Palestinian suffering persists.
Tens of thousands of bedouins struggle for their futures. Land they've lived on for centuries is up for grabs. Israel wants it exclusively for Jews.
Palestinian rights don't matter. Israeli Arab citizens have few. Bedouins have none. It bears repeating. Police states operate this way. Israel is ruthlessly racist.
Stephen Lendman lives in Chicago. He can be reached at [e-mail].
His new book is titled "Banker Occupation: Waging Financial War on Humanity."
http://www.claritypress.com/LendmanII.html
Visit his blog site at sjlendman.blogspot.com.
Listen to cutting-edge discussions with distinguished guests on the Progressive Radio News Hour on the Progressive Radio Network.
It airs Fridays at 10AM US Central time and Saturdays and Sundays at noon. All programs are archived for easy listening.
http://www.progressiveradionetwork.com/the-progressive-news-hour
http://www.dailycensored.com/global-protests-bedouin-ethnic-cleansing/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 01:50 PM

Let's hear from an Israeli Bedouin, even though he probably doesn't know as much of his own situation as do our resident haters.

An Israeli-Bedouin-Arab-Muslim,Ishmael Khaldi, spoke about his childhood, describing his life herding sheep and his home until he was eight—a traditional Bedouin tent.

"We are not perfect. Nobody can ignore there is discrimination there. But the vast majority of people, and the younger generation in particular, enjoy their rights, living in the only democracy in the Middle East. I believe we're going in the right direction," Khaldi says. "People also should remember, Israel itself is a minority in the Middle East. When it comes to judging Israel, the state, which people do all the time, you have to look at all of those things."

Khaldi says he feels it is his responsibility to speak honestly about Israel, both its positives and negatives, and to dispel myths and non-truths about his homeland. When asked by an audience member how to tell good Muslims from a bad, Khaldi responded by stating his own beliefs, shared by—among many—his father, that nowhere in the Koran is violence and hatred a priority over love and peace, and to interpret the Muslim holy book that way is wrong.

Cue the haters calling him an Uncle Tom.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 12:22 PM

The holocaust Jews were not thriving or flourishing.
They were being driven to extinction.
Bedouin Israelis are the fastest growing population group in the world.
What kind of persecution does that?

If you cared about the Bedouin, you would be posting about their pitiful plight in Egypt.
You have no compassion, just a political imperative to attack Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 11:45 AM

"You described them as nomads."
They are nomad - all travellers tend to stick to traditional territories and have permanent centre there, usually in the areas their families came from - Kentish Gypsies, Kerry Travellers, Aberdeenshire Tinkers
"All developed countries have planned development."
What you are proposing id Fascist - the forcible movement of one ethnic group to make room for another
Even the reactionary British Tories have been forced to recognise that rights of travellers (some of them any way) - the Israelis treat them like chess-pieces to be moved at will.
"Bedouin Israelis are not persecuted, they flourish and thrive."
Yeah, I can see that from the photographs in the link I provided!!!
They weren't too happy when the Israeli dirtbags proposed moving them onto a toxic site - neither was the U.N. who raised the matter and condemned the terrorist for trying to do so.
Nor where they happy when the Israelis used toxic sprays and water-cannons on their homes and crops to move them to make room for Israeli families.
Have you ever seen the propaganda films of 'happy Jewish children' in the camps - made at the same time six million of them were being exterminated.   
You are a fascist little bollix and I'm delighted that you confirm that fact with everything you write - keep it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 10:59 AM

Israel is attacking itself by taking a hard-nosed position on the rights of indigenous Palestinian people. They have less to fear from their paranoid view of Islam then they do themselves. Fortunately, according to many articles published by Haaretz, there are quite a few Israeli people who are critical of the Netanyahu regime and the propagandistic lies they tell. The accusations of "anti-semitism" are a smoke screen to denigrate critics of the militaristic fundamentalist right-wing Netanyahu followers that resemble Assad and Mubarak referring to their critics as "terrorists". The same tactic was used in the Fifties in America where everyone who disagreed with Joseph McCarthy was a "communist".
The smear tactics are becoming more evident as the relationship between fundamentalist Christians attempting to fulfill their delusional bible prophecies and militaristic Israelis are disclosed. BDS offers a hope for Israel, that the people there will come to their senses and realize that military blockades, high insular walls, a preponderance of weaponry and spy equipment, or land grabbing and expansion will not solve their problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 04:21 AM

You described them as nomads.
All developed countries have planned development.
Bedouin Israelis are not persecuted, they flourish and thrive.

Why do you care so much for these happy people, and so little for the Christians facing annihilation?
Your concern is not for people, just attacking Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 04:14 AM

"No developed country could allow nomadic herdsmen to wander and camp where they will."
You have been told and you know ***** do not "wander and camp where they will".
They live in settled communities and are being moved to make room for "real" Israelis - to create an apartheid state.
Most of them have occupied these areas for generations - centuries even - far longer that the State of Israel has been in existence - the Israelis are the newcomers.
The Israeli regime is behaving just as the incomers did in Australia and the U.S. in moving the natives into ghettos (reservations) .
What you are arguing is pure fascism - the right of the state over the people - to move people wherever it suits them to do.
It's what sent 600,000 of them to the Auschwitz ovens.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005219
You have been hovering around fascism with your arguments for a long time - now you appear to have leapt right out of your closet.
I ask again - who do you work for BNP, UKIP, Le Pen's mob - or are you just an enthusiastic freelancer - I'm sure if you announce yourself there are plenty who would put work in your way - you appear to have the credentials.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 01:09 AM

No developed country could allow nomadic herdsmen to wander and camp where they will.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:51 PM

"Neither Britain nor Ireland nor Israel could allow nomadic shepherds to camp where they choose."

We could if we had areas where they had traditionally lived and thrived for 600 years.

The Bedouin are being moved to make room for Israeli expansion, no other reason.

The state of Israel exists purely due to a claim of ancient traditional ownership, something they now deny to the Arabs,

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:43 PM

"The difference is you can't blame Jews for that persecution."

There is the libel again. I don't see anybody blaming Jews for any of this.

The blame is directed at the Israeli government, which, unlike Iran's is not run by Rabbis, nor by Jews, but by Israeli politicians. Their religious affiliations are of zero interest to us. Their political activities directing the policies of the "STATE OF ISRAEL" are the topic under discussion.

If we could only get that point into the thick heads of those who cry "Antisemite" at every post, we might be able to discuss that topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:34 PM

"The European Parliament heavily criticized the plan.[9] In January 2012 hundreds of people protested the Prawer Plan, calling for the relocation of about 30,000 Beduins to recognized villages, in front of the Beersheba courthouse.[10] In September 2013 both Human Rights Watch and the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) issued statements condemning Israel's ongoing destruction of Palestinian homes and other structures, particularly in the occupied West Bank and the Negev desert in southern Israel.[citation needed]"

It seems that the government of Israel has been drawing on the experience of their biggest ally, the one which ethnically cleansed the Native Americans to make way for their own settlers, putting the few survivors in reservations where they would be totally dependent upon their "benefactors" for food, water and all the other things they previously got from the land they OWNED.

The down side of learning the lessons of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:15 PM

"Palestinians have full citizenship rights in Israel, but in neighbouring countries are still incarcerated in refugee camps after seventy years."

Tell that to the people of Gaza or the West Bank!

I'm sure they could do with a good laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:03 PM

Neither Britain nor Ireland nor Israel could allow nomadic shepherds to camp where they choose.
That is not persecution, and you can not deny that Bedouin Israelis are a flourishing and thriving community envied by their brethren in neighbouring lands.
It is just a convenient stick to beat Jews with.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:09 PM

"All developed countries have to restrict nomadic lifestyles."
why do they?
Britain is slowly coming terms with the fact with the fact that nomadic groups exist and have to be catered for.
They started to provide acceptable halting sites with adequate facilities situated in places where Travellers could integrate into communities and still carry on their traditional life-style - they even passed laws to make persecution illegal - it was working fine until the Major Government scrapped the 1968 Caravan and Camping Act
The Bedouins don't even pose a problem in the way British Travellers once did - they have created their own communities to enable them to live in the same way they have for centuries
The Israelis are tearing those communities down, using chemicals and water cannons (there goes your riot-control equipment, which I have no doubt you are about to defend again) in some cases to do so, and evicting the rightful inhabitants into ghettos in order to create Islali Apartheid-style communities - a bunch of fascists - just like those are who support them.
You now appear to be moving away from your claim that Israel does not persecute nomads, to saying it is ok because everybody does it.
Another example of open support for racial and ethnic persecution -
You really are a little goose-stepper.
Keep it up - more for the CV
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:04 PM

Of course you do not really care about persecution.
You are completely unmoved by the far worse persecution driving ancient communities to annihilation and extinction that I am trying to get discussed on another thread.
The difference is you can't blame Jews for that persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 02:05 PM

All developed countries have to restrict nomadic lifestyles.
The Bedouin Israelis are flourishing and thriving, and much better off than their brethren elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:00 PM

Repetition of a lie - proven as being such by the recent disturbances currently being reported, doesn't alter a ******* thing, but it does underline your own dishonesty.
Repetition of a lie immediately after been given unequivocal proof is indicative og galloping imbecility.
Moving nomads into ghettos where they are no longer able to follow their tradition occupations and life-styles is ethnic cleansing in anybody's book but yours apparently.
Doing so against their will is State Fascism.
Doing so in order to make room for Israeli settlers and creating ghettos of single ethnic groups is Apartheid - a fact that has been protested against by Israelis and non-Israelis.
You appear to be running true-to-form on at least three threads concurrently at the present time Keith - keep it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 10:53 AM

"Bedouin are not "ethnic cleansed" in Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 06:40 AM

Bedouin are not "ethnic cleansed" in Israel.
Unlike the Egyptian Bedouin, they have full citizenship rights and protection under the law.
The community is flourishing and thriving, and they are the fastest growing population group in the whole world.
Bedouin elsewhere would gladly change places.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:01 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/israel-negev-bedouins-day-of-rage
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
http://forward.com/articles/189828/desert-towns-struggle-shows-pitfalls-of-israels-po/?p=all

A United Nations committee has called for the withdrawal of the draft law that would move 30,000 Bedouin living in the Negev to permanent, existing Bedouin communities. Furthermore, the United Nations human rights chief urged Israel to reconsider a proposed law that would result in the demolition of up to 35 Bedouin villages, displacing as many as 40,000 members of these communities from their ancestral homes. "If this bill becomes law, it will accelerate the demolition of entire Bedouin communities, forcing them to give up their homes, denying them their rights to land ownership, and decimating their traditional cultural and social life in the name of development," Ms. Pillay said. According to the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, the Law for the Regulation of the Bedouin Settlement in the Negev is discriminatory and would legalize racist practices. Further critics of Prawer Plan include an independent human rights organization and legal center, Adalah Adalah which works to promote and defend the rights of Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, 1.2 million people, or 20% of the population, as well as Palestinians living in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). The center describes the Bill - which was approvedby the Israeli Knesset on 25 June 2013 with 43 votes for and 40 votes against, as discriminatory. It adds that the Bill calls for the mass expulsion of the Arab Bedouin community in the Naqab (Negev) desert in the south of Israel. If fully implemented, the Prawer-Begin Plan will result in the destruction of 35 "unrecognized"Arab Bedouin villages, the forced displacement of up to 70,000 Arab Bedouin citizens of Israel, and the dispossession of their historical lands in the Naqab. Despite the Arab Bedouin community's complete rejection of the plan and strong disapproval from the international community and human rights groups, the Prawer Plan is happening now. Adalah further elaborates that Prawer-Begin Bill is an unacceptable proposition that entrenches the state's historic injustice against its Bedouin citizens.
The European Parliament heavily criticized the plan.[9] In January 2012 hundreds of people protested the Prawer Plan, calling for the relocation of about 30,000 Beduins to recognized villages, in front of the Beersheba courthouse.[10] In September 2013 both Human Rights Watch and the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) issued statements condemning Israel's ongoing destruction of Palestinian homes and other structures, particularly in the occupied West Bank and the Negev desert in southern Israel.[citation needed]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:51 AM

There have been a number of massacres of the refugees held in those camps for seventy years by their Arab jailers.
They were all committed by various Arab militia.

Bedouin are not "ethnic cleansed" in Israel.
Unlike the Egyptian Bedouin, they have full citizenship rights and protection under the law, and they are a thriving community.
They are the fastest growing population group in the whole world.

Israel has never used chemical weapons on anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:37 AM

"Ascribing crimes like Sabra and Shatila, chemical weapons and ethnic cleansing of nomads to Jews rather the the Israeli regime is as anti-Semitic a it gets."

Neither Jews nor Israelis are guilty of any of those Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:19 AM

To attribute the crimes of Israel in pursuit of its Apartheid-based policy of expansionism, criticised by Israelis and non Israelis, The United Nations, and peoples worldwide, to Jews, and not the various Israeli regimes, is the deepest form of Anti-Semitism imaginable   
If to criticise Sabra/Shatila, Bedouin ethnic cleansing, the persecution and humiliation of an impoverished people, the use of chemical weapons in hospitals and schools... and the many other crimes carried out by the Israeli's and protected by U.S. vetoes, is Anti-Semitic, the we live in a world populated by Anti-Semites, including by Anti-Semitic Jews.
The documented history of the Israeli state, over 100 vetoes protecting Israeli behaviour and a recent documentary film based on interviews with half a dozen ex heads of Mossad (one of whom pointedly stopped himself from comparing the present Israli leadership to the Nazis), are all unquestionable evidence of Israel's terrorist and human rights record.
"Neither Jews nor Israelis are guilty of any of those Jim."
For me, this would be evidence enough on its own.
Thank you for summing up the case for the prosecution so perfectly Keith - guilty as charged.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 04:52 PM

But if you continue to argue using antisemitic terms,

How, precisely, is opposition to the atrocious policies of the present Israeli government "antisemetic"? And, once again, are those Jewish Israeli citizens who oppose these government policies also "antisemitic"?

Give me a fuckin' break, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 04:21 PM

"I believe that most, if not all, of you are not antisemites."

There are some who, by most definitions except their own, definitely are.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 03:56 PM

Now that the "antisemitism" genie is out of the bottle, I refer you to 'non-Jewish' sources and definitions of that term. Many of the anti-Israel posters, here, have written many things that fit the definition, most especially when calling for the delegitimization of Israel. This has been a frequent suggestion at Mudcat over the past years and topics.

The three sites below are representative in defining antisemitism. The Otttawa Protocol has been adopted by many nations, I believe.

http://www.antisem.org/archive/ottawa-protocol-on-combating-antisemitism/

http://2001-2009.state.gov/g/drl/rls/56589.htm

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/fs/2010/122352.htm

I believe that most, if not all, of you are not antisemites. But if you continue to argue using antisemitic terms, then what can the rest of us think of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 03:23 PM

Neither Jews nor Israelis are guilty of any of those Jim.

More fantasy and denial from the king of bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 02:59 PM

Neither Jews nor Israelis are guilty of any of those Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM

Ascribing crimes like Sabra and Shatila, chemical weapons and ethnic cleansing of nomads to Jews rather the the Israeli regime is as anti-Semitic a it gets.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 02:03 PM

You are being somewhat disingenuous, it seems to me.

And you, M, by equating the opposition of a sizeable number of folks both inside and outside Israel to the present government of Israel and its policies & tactics with "antisemitism" are being more than somewhat idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 11:37 AM

Calling John Kerry an "anti-semite" is shameful and part of the intimidation tactics of the Netanyahu dictatorship. It's the same tactics used to refer to those who disagreed with the "dictators" as "communists" and "terrorists". The Christian reactionaries should be ashamed of themselves for their role in advocating for the razing of the Aqsa Mosque and replacing it with the one they decide is biblical.



The BDS movement is actually pro-Israel attempting to save it from a ruthless regime that would make Israel a security threat to the rest of the world. It is being supported by many Jews or those with Jewish heritage who realize the insanity of the present Netanyahu/Sharon position. Haaretz has many articles about this and is often critical of the present regime, far more than the lock-step, robot-like pronouncements of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee, formerly known as the American Israeli Political Action Committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 10:30 AM

Hey, G, right back to you: The opposition of large numbers of Israeli citizens to their own government's, in many ways culpable, behaviour with regard to the settlement of the West Bank, is in no way incompatible with its exploitation by others [who may wear the cap if it fits] for anti-Israeli comment which may well fall within the definitions of antisemitism as postulated in 2005 by EUMC (The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia). You are being somewhat disingenuous, it seems to me.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 09:38 AM

Hey, M - see below re: all them antisemetic Israeli citizens, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 06:50 AM

About time
Jim Carroll

JOHN KERRY LABELLED 'ANTI SEMITE' FOR WARNING OF POSSIBLE BOYCOTT OF ISRAEL

John Kerry, the US secretary of state, triggered an angry backlash from Israeli leaders on Sunday after warning Israel faces an economic boycott if it failed to reach a peace accord with the Palestinians.
The uproar came as Mr Kerry held cordial talks with his Iranian counterpart, Mohammad Javad Zarif in Munich at which the pair vowed to intensify nuclear diplomacy.
Ministers in Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet accused Mr Kerry of effectively endorsing "anti-Semitic" efforts to impose sanctions on Israel by issuing the warning.
"The risks are very high for Israel," Mr Kerry told the conference. "People are talking about boycott. That will intensify in the case of failure.
"Do they want a failure that then begs whatever may come in the form of a response from disappointed Palestinians and the Arab community?"
Related Articles
While the US secretary of state's remarks were made against a backdrop of new EU regulations barring deals with Israeli businesses based in West Bank settlements, they provoked accusations that he was threatening Israel in on-going peace talks with the Palestinians.
Yuval Steinitz, the intelligence and strategic affairs minister and a close ally of Mr Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said America's top diplomat was "holding a gun to [Israel's] head".
"The things Kerry said are hurtful, they are unfair and they are intolerable," Mr Steinitz told reporters.
"Israel cannot be expected to negotiate with a gun to its head when we are discussing the matters which are most critical to our national interests."
Naftali Bennett, the industry minister and leader of the far-Right Jewish Home party, said: "We expect of our friends in the world to stand by our side against the attempts to impose an anti-Semitic boycott on Israel, and not to be their mouthpiece."
His comments were echoed by Adi Mintz, a senior official in the Settler's Council, who accused Mr Kerry of "an anti-Semitic initiative".
"The anti-Semites have always resorted to a very simple method - hit the Jews in their pockets," he told Israel's Channel 10 TV station.
Mr Netanyahu was more restrained, telling Sunday's cabinet meeting that efforts to impose a boycott were "immoral and unjust" and doomed to fail.
The apparently choreographed chorus of criticism drew a sharp response from the US state department, which denied that Mr Kerry - who is currently trying to draw up a framework agreement between Israel and the Palestinians - was backing an international embargo.
"His only reference to a boycott was a description of actions undertaken by others that he has always opposed ," said Jen Psaki, a state department spokeswoman.
"[Mr Kerry] expected opposition and difficult moments in the process, but he also expects all parties to accurately portray his record and statements."
The row overshadowed a meeting on Sunday between Mr Kerry and Mr Zarif, Iran's foreign minister, to discuss forthcoming talks on Tehran's nuclear programme, scheduled to resume in Vienna this month.
Mr Kerry told Mr Zarif that existing international embargoes would remain in place, despite an interim deal concluded in Geneva last November that gave Iran limited sanctions relief in exchange for suspending some of its nuclear activities. The upcoming talks are aimed at achieving a definitive long-term agreement.
Mr Zarif told the Munich conference that Iran had the political will to reached a "balanced" long-term agreement with the six world powers of America, Britain, France, Russia, China and Germany.
"I think the opportunity is there, and I think we need to seize it," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 06:26 AM

... or three, actually, Greg: add

just to spell it out for the benefit of the myopic

3. antisemitism...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:19 PM

BDS is just a new face for something that's been around for a very long time.

Two things, acttually, that have been atound for a long time, BooBad:

1. Common Sense

2. The need to fight oppression, WHATEVER the source.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 02:29 PM

"If we are to look at Israeli society, it is within the academic community that we've had the most progressive pro-peace views and views that have come out in favor of seeing us as equals…. If you want to punish any sector, this is the last one to approach."

— Al-Quds University President Sari Nusseibeh

The "BDS" or "Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions" movement advocates the demonization of Israel and her actions.

Supporters of BDS are waging a political, economic, cultural, and ideological campaign to delegitimize the State of Israel.

BDS proponents make a false analogy between democratic Israel and Apartheid South Africa so as to isolate and stigmatize Israel.

Advocates of BDS deny Israel the basic human right of self-defense and blame Israel alone for conflict in the region.

BDS supporters demand self-determination for the Palestinians but do not acknowledge the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their homeland, Israel.

BDS is just a new face for something that's been around for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 12:15 PM

I take it you must be a Republican Yaleie then, String?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 11:16 AM

Why BDS wins

Apartheid is the same whether in South Africa or Israel. You don't need any polls to realize this. I don't trust anything with the name Kennedy or Harvard attached to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 09:51 AM

Hey, BooBad & Co:

Being anti- the country of Israel and/or being anti- the government of Israel (both of which you mantain strenuously are not theocgratic)is hardly the being anti-Semitic. Or are you maintaining that the large number of Israeli citizens who oppose the shenanigans of the present government of Israel are anti-Semites as well?

Your usual bullshit, I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 09:33 AM

I was about to say the same Mike, not as eloquently as you of course, but I didn't want to feed the anti-semite trolls and start another flame war. Sometimes you just have to speak out against blatantly hateful accusations because doing otherwise is tantamount to condoning them. The Harvard Kennedy School poll found 77% of Israeli Arabs saying that they would rather live in the state of Israel than anywhere else in the world. Arab villages in Israel which are being proposed for exchange in a land swap deal for Jewish owned land currently in the West Bank are refusing to become part of a Palestinian state, saying that want to remain in Israel. Some apartheid eh! Oh, and as for the Nazi allusion - that speaks for itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:05 AM

Well, Keith: I have always suspected the blanket equating of anti-Israel views with antisemitism to be a disingenuous oversimplification; but there is nevertheless no doubt that antisemitism can sometimes become superficially respectable by disguising itself under an "Israel-is-not-above-criticism" cover. The answer to your question in the present instance can ∴ IMO only be 'antisemitism', pure & simple. No other explanation seems to me to cover the facts of the matter so cogently adduced in your post. Stringie, Jim, GF & the rest would do well to question the motivations for their attitudes & expressions.

But will they? Experentia docet, I greatly fear; so it seems unlikely, dunnit?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 03:26 AM

Of the other counties in the region, Israel is the most democratic and least dictatorial of them all, so why single them out?

Apartheid is about the treatment of minorities.
Of all the countries in the region, minorities get the best deal in Israel.
Christians for instance are being persecuted to extinction all over the region, except in Israel.
In Egypt, Bedouin are exiled to remote deserts, denied basic rights including employment rights and even citizenship, but not in Israel where they are flourishing and thriving.
Palestinians have full citizenship rights in Israel, but in neighbouring countries are still incarcerated in refugee camps after seventy years.
And then there is the Sunni/Shia sectarian violence in almost every country except Israel.
I ask again, of all the countries in the region, why have you singled them out for vilification?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 12:12 PM

No one wants to acknowledge it but as it was rampant in early South Africa, Israel is engaging in a policy of apartheid.

A hard-nosed, xenophobic, tribalistic, ultra-reactionary Netanyahu
has put the gullible US government into the untenable position of supporting another world war.

Expansionism was decried when the Nazi party did it but when the various dictators who are supported by a reactionary US government does it, it is justified as somehow the moral thing to do. A dictator is a dictator whether it's Assad, Pinochet, Noriega, Cici (in Egypt),
Putin, or Netanyahu with his henchman Sharon.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 06:05 PM

A demoralized view.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 05:01 PM

""Every day there are aerial bombings of cities. Each city is bombed three or four times by fighter planes," Firas, who defected from Assad's army to join the rebels fighting to topple him, said.

"Bashar [Assad] didn't take care of us. Here, in Israel, we are being taken care of. Bashar doesn't care about us, whereas Israel does. Bashar fires shells at us, he doesn't care about us at all."

Another patient, Latif, said, "They taught us about the Zionist enemy, the Zionist oppressor. But when we saw the Zionists, [we realized] they were nothing like what we'd been told. They're human beings just like us, human, and even more than that."

Read more: IDF allows first peek into secret Golan Heights field hospital | The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 06:49 PM

One of the biggest problems for the Israelis, as to signing on, is that it came down through Kerry, representing the U.S....and the credibility of the U.S., at this time, is in the toilet....(true story).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 06:09 PM

Hope Lives? Not as long as Netanyahu and his party live.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 01:48 PM

Hope lives:

"Despite the impression Netanyahu is trying to make, even his reservations on the American document won't ruin the framework. Netanyahu is about to say yes to the American outline, which requires dramatic Israeli concessions. He's still trying to play with words and engineer the document so that it won't break up his government, but the chances of that are slim."

Netanyahu close to accepting Kerry plan – and losing his coalition

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 10:22 AM

Secretary of State Kerry devoted most of his talk at Davos today to crafting a framework to resolve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict around the following prinicples:

"An independent state for Palestinians wherever they may be; security arrangements for Israel that leave it more secure, not less; a full, phased, final withdrawal of the Israeli army; a just and agreed solution to the Palestinian refugee problem; an end to the conflict and all claims and mutual recognition of the nation-state of the Palestinian people and the nation-state of the Jewish people."

He also predicted that a failure of the current round of talks would be catastrophic for both parties as well as for the US. He suggested that the UN had neither the ability or the credibility to grant the Palestinian aspiration for independence, and if they failed to achieve it in this round of negotiations with the Israelis, another opportunity would not be likely to arise in the near future. He warned that unilateral acts by either party could precipitate a downward spiral back to violent conflict.

With regard to the eventual complete withdrawal of Israeli troops he added that "the Israelis rightfully will not withdraw unless they know the West Bank will not become a new Gaza, and nobody can blame any leader of Israel for being concerned about that reality." He said that the US, Israel, Jordan and the Palestinians have discussed the creation at the border with Jordan, a "security structure that meets the highest standards anywhere in the world," one which would have the capacity to thwart "an individual terrorist or a conventional armed force."

He emphasized that both sides would gain from a peace agreement. Palestine would achieve independent statehood and the chance for economic prosperity. Israel would get diplomatic recognition and economic ties with the Arab and Muslim world. Estimates are that could result in a six percent increase in GDP per year for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 09:11 AM

Wounded Syrian couple treated in Israel

"We were surprised by the treatment and dedicated medical care we got in Israel," she said. "We hesitated coming to Israel, because we were taught to hate it. We were taught this is a brutal enemy state, but we learned that reality is different. People here have a conscience. Our enemy is in Syria, not in Israel. If only we could stay here."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:01 PM

I agree Bobad.

On the face of it, there is reason for hope, just as long as a two state solution doesn't mean that one state is partially occupied by forces of the other, or that part of the first is under constant siege by the other.

Such is the current position!

I would be interested in hearing just how much of Gaza's supply chain will still be controlled by Israel and whether Gaza will trade through its own ports.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:46 PM

Is there good news on the horizon?

"He may be getting somewhere, after all
John Kerry may be gradually persuading enough Israeli right-wingers that a Palestinian state is worth striving for"

The Economist

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 05:56 PM

On the eve of Kerry's handing an American two state proposal to both the Palestinian and Israeli governments, polls indicate that a majority of BOTH Israelis and Palestinians support a two-state solution. The poll in Palestine was conducted by Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in Ramallah. The poll in Israel was. conducted by the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. 63% of Israelis and 53% of Palestinians support a permanent- settlement based on two states.

http://truman.huji.ac.il/.upload/Joint_press_December_2013%20%282%29.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:43 PM

That sounds like an agreement which could work Bobad, but I still have suspicions about the Israeli government's sincerity, and if such suspicion exists outside the area, those inside will take a lot of reassuring.

I sincerely hope it works, since it gives Palestine at least the illusion of sovereignty.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 11:31 AM

DEBKA Weekly No. 616 of Dec. 20 was first to divulge the nine points of the unpublished draft Kerry planned to present to Israeli and Palestinian leaders this week. Since then, certain amendments were introduced - especially in relation to Israel's military presence in the Jordan Valley and Judea and Samaria. The document continues to be molded by Kerry's ongoing back-and-forth communications with the two parties.
Nevertheless, the nine points disclosed hereunder stand as the basic guidelines of the proposed US framework:

Israel hands over 92.8 pc of West Bank to Palestinians

1. Nearly all its content draws on the proposal Ehud Olmert, then Prime Minister, submitted to Abbas on Aug. 31, 2008, which he never accepted; nor was it approved by any Israeli authority.

2. Territory: Israel will annex 6.8% of the West Bank including the four main settlement blocs of Gush Etzion with Efrata; Maale Adummim; Givat Zeev;and Ariel, as well as all of the "settlements" of East Jerusalem and Har Homa - in exchange for the equivalent of 5.5% of Israeli territory.
3. The Safe Passage: The territorial link between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would cut through southern Israel and remain under Israeli sovereignty and Palestinian control.

Our sources add that out of all other options, the American sponsors of the accord prefer to build an express railway line from Gaza to Hebron, without stops, which would be paid for by Washington. Abbas has already informed John Kerry that he wants the train to go all the way to Ramallah.
There will be a special road connecting Bethlehem with Ramallah that bypasses East Jerusalem. This is mostly likely the same route currently planned to go around Maaleh Adummim.
Since the safe passage will cross through Israeli, accounting for 1% of its territory, this area will be deducted from the land Israel concedes, leaving 4.54% for the land swap with the Palestinians.
4. Jerusalem: East Jerusalem will be divided territorially along the lines of the Clinton Parameters with the exception of the "Holy Basin," which comprises 0.04% of the West Bank.

Sovereignty over this ancient heart of Jerusalem, with its unique and historic concentration of Jewish, Christian and Muslim shrines, will pass to an international commission comprised of the US, Israel, the Palestinians, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
5. Refugees: This issue will be addressed according to guidelines proposed by President Bill Clinton at Camp David in the year 2000 - and rejected by Yasser Arafat.
An International Foundation will be established to resettle the bulk of the Palestinian refugees in Canada and Australia, except for a small portion to be accepted in Israel in the framework of family reunification.

6. Security: The Olmert package made no mention of security. However the Kerry draft deals extensively with this issue and Israel's concerns. It calls for the evacuation of all 10,000 Jewish settlers from the Jordan Valley leaving behind a chain of posts along the Jordan River. Security corridors cutting through the West Bank will maintain their land and operational links with Israel.
Border crossings will be set up between Palestine and Jordan with an Israeli security presence. The security section of the draft assigns the use of West Bank and Gaza airspace by Israel and the Palestinians. There will be no Israeli military presence inside the Palestinian state.

7. Taxes: The present arrangement for Israel to collect customs levies and distribute the revenues to the Palestinians will continue. (debkafile: That is about the only clause which the Palestinians accept.) Israel will carry out security checks on goods bound for Palestinian that are unloaded at Haifa and Ashdod ports, and levy customs at rates fixed by the Palestinians to be disbursed in the Palestinian state.

8. Settlements: Eighty percent of all Jewish settlers on the West Bank will be confined to the major settlement blocs as defined in 2. The remaining 20% amounting, according to American calculations to 80,000 people, will have to decide on their own whether they prefer to stay where they are under Palestinian rule or move to Israel.

debkafile's sources report that Secretary Kerry advised the Israeli Prime Minister bluntly that he need not promise to force settlers to leave their homes - as the Sharon government did when he executed the unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip in 2005. Netanyahu replied that it was unacceptable for Israel to abandon the settlers to their fate. He therefore proposed that instead of forcing them to cross back into Israel, they would be absorbed in the larger settlement blocs remaining under Israeli sovereignty.

9. Timelines: Different timetables are proposed in the US framework for implementing different sections: The Palestinian leader says he is willing to give Israel three years as a transition period for relocating settlers.
When he submitted the paper to the Israeli and Palestinian leaders earlier this month, the Secretary of State told them that he saw no point in the two negotiating teams holding meetings consumed by interminable debates on one point or another. He therefore asked both parties to henceforth send him their comments in writing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:45 AM

Israel has released a third batch of prisoners as part of its peace process.
The release was greeted with wild celebrations by the Palestinians.
Will the Palestinians do anything that the Israelis can celebrate?

Missile attacks, bus bombings and shooting civilians does not do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 07:37 AM

"So far you and your tiny handful of Israeli supporters have refused to comment on their behaviour"

See my post of 28 Dec 13 - 01:45 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:58 AM

You have started smearing me with lies again as you always do when losing.
Just the usual, same old lies.
Let's just discuss the issues Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:54 AM

I did not give it "unquestioning support" Jim.
I told you that I did some checking, but found no faults.
What else am I supposed to do?
You also found no faults.
Nor did Troubadour, Greg or Musket.

That suggests that it is probably mostly accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 03:17 AM

"Neither could you Jim."
Bobad put it up - you gave it your unquestioning support - the 'information' comes from an openly declared Islamophobic site - Muslim Watch
Which of these statements is incorrect?
It is the job of the originators and supporters of vomit like this to prove their case, not for the recipients to disprove it.
You are a stated Islamophobe - you think all Muslims are "implanted" to be perverts by their culture - you have openly made this statement and argued for it on this forum.
Why should we take the word of you, Muslim Watch, the B.N.P..... or any other bunch of lying fanatics.
Go through Boo-Boo's 'Muslim Watch's list and prove the claimed incidents to be true, and to be sectarian and not criminal attacks - it'll only take you few months.   
In the meantime:
Israel's continuing actions of building settlements, along with its previous hostile militaristic behaviour has already put the peace talks - the only possibility at the present time to end the Middle East slaughter - in extreme jeopardy.
It appears to be the intention of the Israeli regime to scupper any little chance of success that these talks have of bringing the conflict to a peaceful conclusion.
So far you and your tiny handful of Israeli supporters have refused to comment on their behaviour - would you care to do so now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 02:31 AM

Can you find a fault with it then Troub?
One false entry?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 07:42 PM

"I do not defend any "fascist information," but could find no fault with the list posted by Bobad.
Neither could you Jim.
Neither could Greg.
Neither could Muppet.
No-one could, so it is probably accurate."

Oh well, that's it then! Four blokes on an obscure niche music website, two of whom were certainly not trying to find fault, couyldn't find fault.

Fan-bloody-tastic!

And that is to be accepted as gospel (according to one of the non tryers)?

Jesus fucking wept! Talk about Hubris!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 03:06 PM

"from a carefully selected group of historians."
Seems like Keith has found himself a new religion - started off well
"There is only one true historian -
Thou shalt worship no her historian than mine"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 02:51 PM

"Well, Jim started off about magic wands & pantomimes. "
My exact feelings about all religions - pleased to see we can agree on something.
Happy New Year Mike - don't work too hard - and don't forget "Nobody loves a fairy when she's (past) forty"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 02:11 PM

I used in fact to do the village pantomime ~~ Haddenham, Cambs is noted around this part of the Fens for its home-made pantomimes: Norma Major came once when Sir John was MP for nearby Huntingdon. I was once a Dr Who, and once a Merry Man in Robin Hood who got shot in the bottom with an arrow. But you will be disappointed to learn that I was never a Fairy Godmother; when we did Cinderella, I was an Ugly Sister ~~ sorry! And I've got too old to do it any more, alas. So I have no wands to wave.

HNY right back 2U, James.

What, you might well ask, has this to do the thread? Well, Jim started off about magic wands & pantomimes. Anyway, just where did those shepherds wash their socks then, at that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 01:47 PM

Quite a large group Greg, and not carefully selected.
Not selected at all.
You can not find one.
NOT A SINGLE ONE!
Bad luck Greg.
You got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:26 PM

but I do learn from historians.

Not quite, Keith. You "learn"[sic] from a carefully selected group of historians.

Its the old ruse of adopting a position and then searching and carefully selecting material to suppost that position.

That is not "learning" nor is it the way serious historians or students of history behave.

Its complete bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 11:52 AM

Given back to the people who have been driven out since the treaty Mike - who else?
The peace treaty that is being deliberately sabotaged by Israeli aggression (Government policy Boo Boo) could save thousands of Israeli and Palestinian lives and pave the way for permanent peace in the Middle East.
I assume you don't want to comment on the wrecking tactics of the Israeli regime - like your soulmates here!!
I had little doubt that you would be lurking somewhere waving your magic wand - shouldn't you be rehearsing for a pantomime somewhere?
Seasons....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 09:01 AM

I see that Hezbollah is doing their part for the peace process: Rockets fired from Lebanon into Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 08:09 AM

"Given back" to whom, Jim? To the Ottoman Empire, the previous owners? I think not.

But I know from experience that it is no use trying to approach you with anything resembling facts on this topic, & it will only degenerate again into accusations of a hurtful nature both ways, so I have now done with this thread,

Hope all had a Merry Xmas. Happy New Year to one & all, Gentile or Jew Or you who turn the wheel and look to windward...

~M~

Not sure what this last bit means: it's from Eliot's The Waste Land, for anyone who may claim to be able to make heads or tails of that fraudulent load of old bum!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 07:13 AM

I do not rewrite History, but I do learn from historians.
I am not so arrogant and stupid as to believe I know more than them!

I do not defend any "fascist information," but could find no fault with the list posted by Bobad.
Neither could you Jim.
Neither could Greg.
Neither could Muppet.
No-one could, so it is probably accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 06:49 AM

Given back - and kept the plum bits for themselves
Go back to rewriting WW1 history and defending fascist 'information' from 'Muslim Watch' - you are not much good at this - or at that either, but at least your other efforts are good for a laugh!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 05:01 AM

the Israelis have slaughteres and continue to slaughter to gain territory

They are not much good at it then.
They have gained none since their defensive war of 1973, and have given away territories bigger than UK!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:47 AM

Yjere are illegal settlement - and there always have been - the Israelis have slaughteres and continue to slaughter to gain territory - which is the start and finish of the trouble in he Middle East.
100+ American vetoes have stood between Israel being indicted as the war criminal she is.
The peace treaty has provided a straw to grasp to end the trouble - the Israelis, from the beginning of negotiations, has done her best to scupper those efforts - why shouldn't she - she has the nuclear weapons and the US veto on her side.
You people have chosen to side with a war criminal and human rights abuser - and you scurry back into your rat-holes whenever Israel's atrocities are held up in front of you.
Why not try your 'Muslim Watch' fascist website again - that might have something to can put up in their defence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 01:45 PM

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which Jewish property was confiscated and retitled, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 12:37 PM

Soldiers being killed by their victims - what a shame.
A government deliberately prolonging a long running conflict caused by annexing lands illegally - by annexing more land in the middle of a peace conference - a crime against humanity.
While Israel continues to occupy and extend its occupation of Palestinian lands people - Israelis and Palestinians will continue to die - simple logic
As still you bunch of morons refuse to comment on Israeli aggression
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 11:23 AM

Who's trying to sabotage the peace conference again?

"A soldier is murdered by a Palestinian co-worker, another soldier is killed by a sniper near Hebron, a 9-year-old is wounded next to her Psagot home from a terrorist's gunshot, a reserve colonel is murdered by Palestinians outside his house in the Jordan Valley, a soldier is wounded by an explosive hidden in a tunnel on the Gaza Strip border, another soldier is stabbed to death by a Palestinian on a bus in Afula, an explosion in a Bat Yam bus is averted due to a passenger's alertness and several hours later a Defense Minister employee is shot dead by a sniper, a Jerusalem policeman is almost run over. Six Israelis have been murdered since the negotiations with the Palestinians were renewed, and there were some 600 other violent nationalistic events."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 09:59 AM

"Ah yes, the usual insightful and helpful contribution to the topic by the usual suspects."
And the silent supporters of Israeli terrorism by the usual apologist - not helpful, but certainly enlightening.
Don't suppose you have any comments on the Israeli attempts to sabotage the peace conference yet again Boo-Boo - no? - thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 09:45 AM

Ah yes, the usual insightful and helpful contribution to the topic by the usual suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 08:13 AM

Absolutely - they'll be back when they've finished fighting the good fight for Christians and telling it how if was in WW1
Happy New year Muskie

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 08:03 AM

First time I looked at this thread. Usual apologists I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 06:52 AM

Israel has made it quite clear throughout the peace talks (that dare not mention their name in some quarters) by it's aggressive and hostile behaviour to any form of settlement that does not include further illegal settlements
The Israeli regime have announced further settlements in the last few days
As someone rightly said - "Small hope for Israel/Palestine" thanks to such warlike actions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:27 PM

Historian Says Bugs Bunny Might be Jewish

A noted Jewish-British cinematic historian has claimed that the world's most famous rabbit displays prominent Jewish characteristics. According to film scholar David Yehuda Stern, Bugs Bunny was created by a Jewish producer, lived in a Jewish neighborhood, has a distinctly New York/Jewish accent and uses his wit and sense of humor to avoid all attempts to eliminate him.

Stern revealed his findings at a lecture held recently at Britain's University of Warwick, Israeli daily Ma'ariv reported. Stern, who watched thousands of animated shorts that feature Bugs Bunny, noted in his presentation that there are Jewish fingerprints all over the smart aleck cartoon character, including the very voice of Bugs Bunny – Jewish actor Mel Blanc.

Stern's exhaustive study even included the findings of one specific cartoon episode in which Bugs Bunny flashes back to his childhood. The New York neighborhood Bugs grew up in is teeming with obviously Jewish characters, such as ultra-Orthodox Jews and other stereotypically Eastern European figures from the turn of the 20th century.

Stern closed his case for Bugs Bunny being Jewish by reminding his audience that the legendary rabbit's arch nemesis is…Porky Pig. The pig, of course, is Judaism's quintessentially unclean animal.

Lastly, Stern joked that the word 'rabbit' becomes 'rabbi' if you just get rid of the final letter…

Bugs! buballeh! Welcome home!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 12:44 PM

the 77% of Israeli Palestinians who say they would rather live in the state of Israel...

Source for this figure?

Stockholm syndrome, or just plain desperation?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:16 AM

So Greg, I suppose you'd call the 77% of Israeli Palestinians who say they would rather live in the state of Israel than any where else in the world "uncle Toms" too. Astonishing arrogance even for an ideologue.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:42 AM

Is there a word that describes a people who give care and comfort to their sworn enemies?
The nearest I can think of is "Good Samaritan."

Are there any examples of Jews receiving such care from their enemies?
Are there "hundreds, possibly thousands" but you can't produce one Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 12:25 PM

By the way, BooBad, what are "uncle Tom" and "oreo" in Hebrew? Or in Arabic, for that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 12:24 PM

And she's still a token Muslim, very much like the token Black folks in the U.S & elsewhere, trotted out for convenience & PR purposes.

So what?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM

"Yet another hypocrite who directed the world to sever ties with Israel until he needed what Israel had to offer. And Israel provided even Sarraj with its best medical care."

Dead Gaza BDS Advocate Sought Israeli Medical Care

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:35 AM

Well *I* would gather that she knows much more about freedom, liberties and academic opportunities in Israel than you do, contrary to what you like to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:18 AM

And what are we to gather from a token Muslim, BooBad?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 05:38 PM

"On trips to Europe, Ali-Selah said that people she met were surprised to learn that Israeli Arabs studied engineering and medicine in Israel, and that they lived among Jews. She points to this lack of awareness as helping to perpetuate the falsehood—strengthened by BDS and Boycotters like Roger Waters — that Israel is an apartheid state –which denies a fundamental truth: Arabs, and in particular Arab women, have more freedom, liberties and academic opportunities in Israel than in any Arab country."

Guess Who's Valedictorian at Israel's Top Medical School?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:16 AM

Iran Must Not Be Allowed to Remain Nuclear

If there is one lesson I hope the world has learned from the past it is that regimes rooted in brutality must never be trusted. And the words and actions of the leadership of Iran leave no doubt as to their intentions.

Should the civilized nations of the world trust a regime whose supreme leader said yet again last month that Israel is "doomed to annihilation," and referred to my fellow Jewish Zionists as "rabid dogs?"

Should we who believe in human rights, trust a regime which in the 21st century stones women and hangs homosexuals?

Should we who believe in freedom trust a regime which murdered its own citizens in the streets of Tehran when the people protested a stolen election in the Green Revolution of Summer, 2009?

Should we who believe in the United States trust a regime whose parliament last month erupted in "Death to America" chants as they commemorated the 34th anniversary of the storming of our Embassy in Tehran?

Should we who believe in life trust a regime whom our own State Department lists as one of the world's foremost sponsors of terrorism?

America, too, defines itself by its words and actions. America adopted me, as it did so many others, and gave me a home after my people were exterminated in the camps of Europe. And from the time of the founding fathers America has always stood up to tyrants. Our nation is morally compromised when it contemplates allowing a country calling for the destruction of the State of Israel to remain within reach of nuclear weapons.

Sanctions have come at a terrible economic cost for the people of Iran. But, unfortunately, sanctions are what have brought the Iranian regime to the negotiating table.

I appeal to President Obama and Congress to demand, as a condition of continued talks, the total dismantling of Iran's nuclear infrastructure and the regime's public and complete repudiation of all genocidal intent against Israel. And I appeal to the leaders of the United States Senate to go forward with their vote to strengthen sanctions against Iran until these conditions have been met.

I once wrote that history has taught us to trust the threats of our enemies more than the promises of our friends. Our enemies are making serious threats. It is time to take them seriously. It is time for our friends to keep their promises.

Elie Wiesel

Nobel Peace Laureate

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM

The Palestinian Red Line
By Prof. Efraim Inbar December 16, 2013

BESA Center Perspectives Paper No. 227

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: PA leader Mahmoud Abbas views recognition of Israel as the Jewish state as a red line. It is high time the Palestinians recognize the Jewish people's right to their ancient homeland, as Israel already recognized Palestinian rights in the land 35 years ago.

The media reported that Mahmoud Abbas, head of the Palestinian Authority (PA), rejected the peace proposals submitted by US Secretary of State John Kerry. The Palestinians leaked that Abbas sent a letter to Kerry reiterating his complete opposition to the demand to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. This was declared a "red line" that the Palestinians will not cross.

This "red line" is not just about semantics, but rather the essence of the conflict. The Palestinian position amounts to denying the Jews the right to establish their state in their homeland. It also indicates without any doubt that the Palestinians, despite the conventional wisdom, are not ready to reach a historic compromise with Zionism, the Jewish national revival movement. Therefore, a stable peace based on mutual recognition and ending all demands is not in the cards. The weak PA seems to accept partition of Mandatory Palestine into two states – perhaps in accordance with the PLO's stages approach – but it still refrains from accepting the legitimacy of the Zionist enterprise.

This is in stark contrast to Israel, which recognized the "legitimate rights of the Palestinians" in the September 1978 Camp David Accords, and is ready for generous territorial concessions in order to implement a partition of the Land of Israel/Palestine. The bitter truth is that the asymmetry in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has not changed for over a century. In essence, this ethno-religious conflict is not about territory – although it obviously has a territorial dimension – but about securing the recognition of the other side to national rights in a given territory.

Despite the image of untrustworthiness in keeping written agreements, Palestinians actually give great importance to the language used in the documents they are asked to sign. Yasser Arafat, generally viewed by most Israelis as an accomplished liar, refused in 2000 to sign an agreement that included a clause about an end to all demands. For him the conflict could end only with Israel's eventual demise. Similarly, Abbas cannot bring himself to put his signature to a document which says that the Jews have returned to their homeland. We know that the perception of Jews being foreign invaders of Palestine is a fundamental widespread Palestinian attitude, which is instilled in the younger generations in the PA-run schools.

The entrenchment of such attitudes is clear also by the lack of a debate among the Palestinians whether to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Discussing Jewish rights to the Land of Israel is not conceivable in the current intra-Palestinian deliberations. Not even the so-called Palestinian moderates are calling for a debate among the Palestinians on whether to recognize the right of self-determination of the Jews in their historic homeland. Palestinian polls do not ask whether Israel should be recognized as a Jewish state. Normative language mentioning rights and international norms in Palestinian discourse is reserved for Palestinian demands only, and is never applied to understand what Israelis want.

The efforts of the Palestinian media to negate the Jewish past and historic links to the Temple Mount, and even the Western Wall, indicate an ideological commitment to rewriting history. Palestinian archeology is similarly used to erase all traces of Jewish presence from the land. Even Koranic sources mentioning the links of the Jews to the Land of Israel are ignored. Such Palestinian behavior serves only to prolong the conflict because it does not teach the Palestinians that Jews are part of the history of this land. All these acts are intolerable and must stop before Israel considers signing a comprehensive peace agreement.

It was a mistake not to insist on recognition of Israel being a Jewish state in the negotiations with the Palestinians in the 1990s. Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu understands very well the need for such recognition by the Palestinians to ensure a historic peace deal, and his insistence on getting it in the framework of a comprehensive settlement is right on the mark.

Moreover, Palestinians are different than the Egyptians or Jordanians, who were not required to accept Israel as a Jewish state. They have no claims to Palestine, while it is the Palestinians and the Israelis that fight for the same piece of land.

The Israelis recognized Palestinian legitimate rights 35 years ago. It is high time for the Palestinians to learn about the "other" they are in conflict with, and reciprocate if they are serious about making peace.

Prof. Efraim Inbar, director of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies, is a professor of political studies at Bar-Ilan University and a fellow at the Middle East Forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 13 - 04:32 AM

"to wash the slime off."
The slime is built in I'm afraid Brucie - it's part of the makeup of you Antisemites and won't wash off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 07:58 PM

And what right do Israelis have to defend themselves from those trying to kill them, after all they're fucking Jews and besides they control the US government, the world's press, the banks and they drink the blood of non Jewish babies, right Stevie boy?

Like I always tell Keith, you can't argue with bloody idiots. By the way, I'm not calling you a bloody idiot. I don't need to. This post of yours marks you out as such without any extra input from me. Also, you lost your cool. You don't get nowhere if you lose your cool. I never lose my cool. Watch and learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 06:30 PM

Oh and 500 - adieu my friends adieu.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 06:28 PM

You're welcome to stay and wallow in your friends' cesspool Greg but I have reached my tolerance limit for the stench.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 06:13 PM


Well this thread has once again been defiled by the usual haters spewing their venomous bile all over it

Like BullshitBruce, for instance?

Gee, BooBad, taking your ball & going home, are ya? Or are you following Harry Truman's admonition?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 05:43 PM

Oh, and one more thing DonT, you don't seem to have a problem with your fellow traveler smearing us as Islamophobes do you you fucking hypocrite - so take your righteous indignation, roll it up into a nice fat wad and shove it up where the sun don't shine - there that's a good lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 04:43 PM

Well this thread has once again been defiled by the usual haters spewing their venomous bile all over it. Have fun pissing into the wind gentlemen. TTFN.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 04:03 PM

Don,
This Braindead is the only one to have attempted Israeli crimes with being "jewish" - in doing so it is he who is Antisemitic.
Hiding behind six million dead victims of Nazism is about as low as you can sink.
He has put up no defence for Israeli behaviour other than those from the script which he prepared earlier - ask him something that is not on it - "Does not compute, does not....." Isaac Assimov couldn't have made a better job of creating a robot
Don't hold your breath waiting for an intelligent response.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 02:02 PM

""Then show THAT, you lying scum sucker. I HAVE STATED facts- If YOU don't ilk them, SHOW THAT THEY ARE WRONG instead of attacking ME.""

NO YOU LYING, BIGOTED, AMERICAN PRICK!

YOU put up just one anti Jewish comment I have ever posted!!

YOU are the aggressor here, like your beloved Israeli government.

Prove your point or PISS OFF!

Reading posts from the three of you makes me feel like I need to take a shower when I log out, to wash the slime off.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 01:50 PM

"Show me where I have called anyone an Antisemite for suggesting that Israel should stop building settlements."
Throughout this and virtually every thread you have gone on supporting Israeli atrocities by hiding behind done-and-dusted, long established history history.
You have consistently refused to comment on the settlements and when the pressure is put on we become Antisemitic or "Jew-hater"
When Israel's crimes are put up for you to disprove or explain - same thing.
Nobody but you has mentioned "Jews" in relation to Israeli war crimes other than you.
Never thought I would come across an antisemitic Zionist - just goes to show, you're never to old to learn - you somewhat shallow bullying thug (or should that be "would-be thug if you had the bottle to actually do anything about your thuggish aspirations.
God knows, Boo Boo isn't the brightest starfish in the sand-bucket, but at least he confines himself behind meaningless cut-n-pastes
I was quite surprised a few months ago when I heard a former head of Mossad describe the Israeli regime as 'Nazi' - reading your postings, it makes sense.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 01:00 PM

Greggie the racist ( "Black Democrat" is read by him as "Dumb Ni**er")

You really do think that if you repeat that lie enough, people will believe it, dontcha, BullshitHorseshitBruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 12:11 PM

"his every utterance is so devoid of evidence, truth, or logic that personal abuse is his one debating trick."


Then show THAT, you lying scum sucker. I HAVE STATED facts- If YOU don't ilk them, SHOW THAT THEY ARE WRONG instead of attacking ME.


I give back what I am attacked with- Argue FACTS, and you will get facts. ATTACK ME, and I will do my best to show you for the bigot you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 11:44 AM

DonT,

YOUR failure to demand that those who agree with you follow the rules YOU complain I am breaking prove you are not entitled to complain.

BullshitBobert claims all who oppose ANY Obama action are Racist KKKrs- YET YOU SAY NOTHING.

Greggie the racist ( "Black Democrat" is read by him as "Dumb Ni**er") makes personnal attacks AND YOU SAY NOTHING.


So shut the fuck up about me stating the truth that some here have shown themselves to be Jew Haters.





Since the ARABS are referring to killing Jews, and not just Israelis, and have attacked JEWS worldwide, not just Israelis, it is fair to use that term.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 11:42 AM

There are millions of Jews in almost every country on the planet, who are native to those countries and who have no traceable ancestors native to what is now Israel.

Their nationality is that of whatever country they were born in.

Their religion is Judaism.

Israel consists of native born Jews, Muslims, some Christians and what are referred to as returning Jews, most of whom are of European birth.

The Israeli government is not a Jewish government. It is the government of the above mixture.

Comment on that government is not about Jews. It is about the reprehensible actions of the organisation itself.

I am utterly disgusted, after the way that we were slagged off for even mentioning the Holocaust, to find one of our rabid Israeli apologists trying to paint a fellow member as a supporter of the Nazi Blood Libel.

You have sunk to new depths and are beneath contempt Bobad!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 11:04 AM

""And what right do Israelis have to defend themselves from those trying to kill them, after all they're fucking Jews and besides they control the US government, the world's press, the banks and they drink the blood of non Jewish babies, right Stevie boy?""

There are only three people on this thread talking about Jews and all three are "Israel can do no wrong" apologists.

All three have utterly failed to show the slightest anti Jewish bias in their opponents because there isn't any!!

Yet one arsehole persists in using the name ""Jim the Jew Hater"" because his every utterance is so devoid of evidence, truth, or logic that personal abuse is his one debating trick.

Decrying the atrocious record and actions of a government is not, and never can be racist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 09:17 AM

"...welcome to being called an Antisemite by Bobad and Brucie here, for suggesting that Israel should stop building settlements"

Show me where I have called anyone an antisemite for suggesting that Israel should stop building settlements. You can't because it is a lie and you are a lying piece of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM

"Put the energy into pushing the hell out of Israel to quit with settlements and to get behind a settlement...

This one issue is the centerpiece of the Al-Qaeda recruitment program..."

Utter rubbish!!

Al-Qaeda;
Hamas;
Fatah;
Hezbollah;
The Muslim Brotherhood;
Lebanon;
Syria;
Jordan;
Egypt;
Iran;
Turkey;
Any other Arab State you could mention.

None of the above could give a toss for the Arabs of Palestine, and that has been proved time and time again over the past 66 years (The Lebanese, the Jordanians, the Egyptians actually imprisoned the Palestinians, the latter two in camps located on Palestinian land that they themselves had stolen - The Syrians do not even let Palestinians into their country after the shit Arafat tried to pull in Jordan - see Black September)

The Arabs of Palestine are simply useful pawns to be dragged out and paraded every time their "leaders" and their allies want another hand out (None of which ever filters down to genuinely benefit the "Palestinians")

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 01:58 AM

"War crimes are war crimes, no matter who commits them...
No???"
Yes of course they are - I was referring to our little man here who is supporting Israeli war crimes.
"Stop the settlements now.."
I agree with you entirely - welcome to being called an Antisemite by Bobad and Brucie here, for suggesting that Israel should stop building settlements
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 09:02 PM

I have no idea what he's on about Bobert, nor do I think does he.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:48 PM

Huh???

War crimes are war crimes, no matter who commits them...

No???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:38 PM

"Yes, hating comes very easily to some it seems."
Only Antisemites who blame Jews for Israel's war crimes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:19 PM

"you're making it very easy for the rest of us"

Yes, hating comes very easily to some it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:11 PM

"But Jimmy the JewHater thinks that killing Jews is just fine."
Are you still insisting that it was the "Jews" and not the Israelis who massacred Arabs when the Brits left Palestine, that it was the "Jews" who dropped chemical weapons on civilians, shelled hospitals and schools, massacres 3,500 refugees at Sabra/Shatila, moved entire communities of Bedoins onto toxic sites, created an apartheid state...... and would have been indicted for war crimes and human rights abuses.
Veeery interesting.
I would have thought it was the Israelis - but if you insist these are "Jewish" crimes - who am I to argue?
Keep it up Brucie - you're making it very easy for the rest of us
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:06 PM

Heck with Syria...

Put the energy into pushing the hell out of Israel to quit with settlements and to get behind a settlement...

This one issue is the centerpiece of the Al-Qaeda recruitment program...

Get this off our backs... We have given Israel enough over the years to reasonably expect them to not work cross purpose with out interests...

Israel, in acting poorly, is hurting it's own self...

Stop the settlements now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:55 PM

And what right do Israelis have to defend themselves from those trying to kill them, after all they're fucking Jews and besides they control the US government, the world's press, the banks and they drink the blood of non Jewish babies, right Stevie boy?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:19 PM

Hey chaps, I wasn't really asking you about convicted (define...) "terrorists". I was asking you about men, women and children held without charge or trial, often for years. Embarrassing, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 04:03 PM

AND the ones released were CONVICTED killers. They had had a trial, and been found guilty of murder.

But Jimmy the JewHater thinks that killing Jews is just fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:59 PM

Whenever they have captured a Jew, they exchange them or their remains for large numbers of convicted terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:19 PM

Israel did make a big gesture of reconciliation for the peace talks by releasing so many convicted terrorists.

Nice work, Keith. Now tell us how many Israelis (terrorists or not) are held by Hezbollah or Hamas. When you've told us that, move on to tell us how many Palestinians (don't forget to include the women and kids, by the way) are held by Israel without charge or trial. Don't forget to go back a few years, Keith. After all, you have been defending Israel against all comers for a few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 02:58 PM

A con - they smashed up the "peace conference that dare not speak it's name" - well - you won't anyway - or Terminus or Boo Boo as for Beardie the Wierdy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 02:14 PM

Israel did make a big gesture of reconciliation for the peace talks by releasing so many convicted terrorists.
Hezbolla's gesture was to take a break from slaughtering Syrians and attempt the murder of some Israeli soldiers, and some ordinary Jewish folk and kids with their illegal missiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 11:43 AM

" the Arabs of "Palestine" cannot and will not define what they see as being "their" borders then there can be be no "theft" of land from them by the Israelis."
The necessity for over 100 U.S.vetoes shows that the world knows differently, as you do otherwise there would be no harm in sitting around a conference table and discussing it nor a reason for your mob
even acknowledging that there is a conference taking place.
Chickenshit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 09:02 AM

If the Arabs of "Palestine" cannot and will not define what they see as being "their" borders then there can be be no "theft" of land from them by the Israelis.

"which means that future generations of Palestinian and Israeli parents can look forward to their children being brought home in body bags."

Over the last 66 years it would appear that neither side seems to have a problem with that prospect, if fact that is the established norm for the region. Judging by rates of attrition, the whole of what was defined as being the Mandated Territory of Palestine in 1923, after Trans-Jordan was created as an exclusively Arab State, will end up being called Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:47 AM

Cut the crap.
You can identify no error in any post.
If you could, you would.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

Keith, all your posts on Israel are one big error. In that you simply don't get it, and don't want to get it. You must have an awful lot of time on your hands, in spite of going over the same old ground again and again and again, to want to drag someone else into your quagmire. No thanks. I'll say what I think and you can like it or lump it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:02 AM

I was responding to Keith's revisionism-by-omission, followed, as ever, by his revisionism-by-revisionism.
No Steve.
You said this about me,
You're a laugh a minute, Keith. One of those people who can persuade themselves of anything if they try hard enough.

I asked you to identify any error in my post, but you were unable to find even one.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:54 AM

"To those who witter on about "Palestinian" Land - I would like them to show me what borders actually define this land."
Which has nothing whatever to do with the deliberate wrecking of the conference by your terrorist mates and it is certainly no comment on how you feel about their spoiler tactics - which means that future generations of Palestinian and Israeli parents can look forward to their children being brought home in body bags.
I take it that for you and your mates, the only future you see is one that is achieved by tanks and chemical weapons and massacring refugees?
As I said - no thoughts on the conference, in fact, no thought at all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:12 AM

I'm quite happy for you to point out what Hezbollah does. I haven't got much time for them either, to be honest. But what you're missing here is that I was responding to Keith's revisionism-by-omission, followed, as ever, by his revisionism-by-revisionism. Thing is, Teribus, one sometimes responds to posts to try to restore a balance that one perceives to be lacking. You can't expect every post from every poster to be a chapter out of the official history of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 07:01 AM

Wrong "Christmas" I did -

"To those who witter on about "Palestinian" Land - I would like them to show me what borders actually define this land."

There is the question for you or one of your Arab "palestinian" mates to answer simply define "their" borders, the borders of the State of Palestine.

They will not do that however because that poses the "Palestinian leadership" in the West bank and in Gaza with a problem, because if they define "their" borders in order to complain about "illegal" settlements they automatically acknowledge the existence and the right to existence of the sovereign state of Israel, something they simply cannot allow themselves to do and THAT is why all peace talks have failed since 1947.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 04:23 AM

"No mention from Steve Shaw of the "Cluster Munitions" fired by Hezbollah"
And still no mention by you or any of your pro-Zionist buddies of the fact that there is a peace conference in progress which has been virtually brought to its knees by Israel's continuing development of illegal sites, its incursion into sovereign territory and its mounting of a security operation in a refugee camp and killing three of the refugees.
Scurrying behind past conflicts (while carefully avoiding the long-term atrocities of a state that would have been long publicly declared "terrorist" had it not been for the protection of over 100 UN vetoes) seems to be a built-in tactic of you atrocity deniers.
Have you any thoughts on the Peace Conference Terminus; more to the point - have you any thoughts?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:49 AM

Lebanon -2006:
IDF hit 832 sites in Southern Lebanon with "Cluster Munitions" the majority of which were delivered in the form of artillery shells and rockets. One quarter of the sub-munitions dropped were duds

Resulting casualties - 28 killed and 186 wounded
As of December 2012, the LMAC data indicated 663 casualties (154 killed; 509 injured) from unexploded submunitions, of which 18% (120) were children.

The IDF identified the sites targeted and gave details of the munitions used, no civilian areas were targeted, they also handed over maps detailing where landmines had been laid. No such information was supplied by Hezbollah.

No mention from Steve Shaw of the "Cluster Munitions" fired by Hezbollah during the same conflict from Southern Lebanon into Israel. Hezbollah fired Chinese-manufactured cluster munitions into Israel civilian targets, using 122-mm rocket launchers, hitting Kiryat Motzkin, Nahariya, Karmiel, Maghar, and Safsufa. The 113 rockets fired killed 44 civilians and injured thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 06:12 PM

No crap, Keith. As ever, you are in complete, blind denial of Israel's wrongdoings. Hundreds of maimed Lebanese kids could vouch for that. One million unexploded bomblets left lying around, all nice and brightly-coloured, just the thing to attract kids. I suppose you think the IDF and their masters "didn't know what they were doing" when they left 'em there? Huh? Stupid thing is, Keith, I sort of already know what you're gonna say next...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 05:59 PM

Cut the crap and point out my error Steve, if you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:37 PM

Israel has stopped using cluster weapons because of the problem of unexploded bomblets.
Most militaries did use them, and unlike firing antipersonel missiles at civilian targets, they were legal.
Decent militaries, like Israel, have ceased the use of cluster weapons.

You're a laugh a minute, Keith. One of those people who can persuade themselves of anything if they try hard enough. As I said, you can't argue with a bloody idiot. God knows why we bother with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:25 AM

Good post Teribus but don't confuse them with facts, their position is not predicated on facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:38 AM

I see my lousy typing has let the usual haters ignore the facts.



"Steve, and Jim the Jew-Hater,

Since you have no problem with those who disagree with Bobert being called KKK, "

BOBERT calls anyone who disagrees with his opinions KKKrs, yet you have no problem with that. EVERYONE who disagrees with ANYTHING Obama says is a racist, even when we are on record as having disagreed with such policies long before Obama was on the political scene.


"and Jim-the-Jew_Hater calls me "Brainless Bruce,"

The standard "Liberal " response to ANY post where facts are presented is to attack the poster, and the "Liberal" logic police NEVER seem to bother noticing- yet they will jump on any logical flaw by those they disagree with, and claim that there is thus no reason to even consider facts.


"you have no fucking right to either complain about or ask for proof of my naming Jim Carroll what he has shown himself to be."

Simple statement of fact.



"Or are you joining the Ubermensch in demanding a different set of rules for those you support versus those you disagree with???

As I say, what a typical bunch of "Liberal" shit for brains."


Again, I have to judge the "Liberals" here by those that post their views, and how they post.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM

Israel has stopped using cluster weapons because of the problem of unexploded bomblets.
Most militaries did use them, and unlike firing antipersonel missiles at civilian targets, they were legal.
Decent militaries, like Israel, have ceased the use of cluster weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:29 AM

"In response, Israel developed its Iron Dome missile interceptors, deploying the mobile units in 2011."

And left hundreds of thousands of unexploded cluster bomblets lying around in southern Lebanon to blow kids' legs off. We know how much you enjoy partial information, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM

Don T

The Palestinian Moslems were given a JEW-FREE state in the early 1920's - TransJordan, over 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory. THOSE were the last borders accepted by the Arabs, and should be the START of any present negotiations.

This has been stated many times, WITH NO REFUTATION by ANY opposed to Israel- so your comment is willful ignorance, or deliberate lie.

As for Jimmie the Jew-hater's comments, he fails to note that the Palestinians have been quite specific in referring to the JEWS that they want to kill, and remove by ethnic cleaning.

He is quite happy for JEWS to be removed from land they were on for thousands of years, I note.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:19 AM

To those who witter on about "Palestinian" Land - I would like them to show me what borders actually define this land.

As far as I am aware in 1947 the Jews of Palestine agreed to a two-state solution proposed by the UN. Unfortunately the Arabs of Palestine and their allies (For that read every Arab country in the world) refused to accept this solution and elected to fight. Borders were then temporarily defined not as per the 1947 proposal but by the ceasefire lines in 1949 (I say temporarily defined as there was never any peace treaty signed - and subsequent Arab actions showed that they most certainly did not recognise these borders as meaning anything)

The big turning point came in 1967 when the pan Arabic Movement led by Nasser attempted to wipe Israel literally from the face of the earth, and received the shock of their lives for their troubles as the IDF cleared the Egyptians from Gaza and the Sinai, the Jordanians from the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the Syrians from the Sheeba Farms and the Golan Heights. Up until this point all these heroic Arab nations had been holding "Palestinian" land obtained by conquest, which apparently most here see nothing wrong with. But in 1967 they lost not only that but significant chunks of their own territory - and they squealed like stuck pigs.

1973 came and went as the Arabs once more elected to go to war and the situation became worse so to get their own land back both Egypt and Jordan did deals on the basis of land for peace and got their own land back. The Arabs of Palestine have still not defined what they see as being "their borders" so how can it be possible for the Israelis to steal land? The Egyptians "stole" Gaza for the best part of twenty years and they would hold it still had it not been for Nasser's f**k-up in 1967 - same goes for Jordan with East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The Mandated Territory of Palestine that was defined in 1923 allows for free settlement anywhere in that territory for Jew and Arab alike, the Jews just happen to be better at it. The Arabs of Palestine have had over 66 years to make something of the situation they themselves elected to get themselves into and they have failed miserably - the failure being entirely self-generated.

There is I fear not the slightest hope for any settlement - so next time it kicks off then the world should just stand back and let one side or the other prevail and settle the matter in blood the way the Arabs of the region have always wanted to settle it. I know which side would prevail (It would not be the Arabs) - and the Arabs of Palestine know that as well so their "leaders" continue with the farce taking every opportunity to grandstand in international forums playing the victim whilst ripping their "people" off by channeling millions off aid packages thrown at the Palestinian leadership by the gullible - Yasser Arafat was a past-master at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 06:13 AM

BBC, 5 days ago, whole piece.

Explosions have been heard in northern Israel, after rockets were fired across the border from southern Lebanon.

Sirens sounded across the area, but no casualties were reported. Footage showed some minor damage at a kibbutz near the coastal town of Nahariya.

Four rockets were fired from southern Lebanon, a stronghold of the Shia Islamist movement Hezbollah.

An Israeli military spokesman said one of the rockets was intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defence system.

Rockets have been fired into Israel intermittently by militant groups since the Israel-Hezbollah conflict in 2006.

But an Israeli army spokesman told the BBC he did not believe Hezbollah was behind the attack.

Lebanese news agencies reported all four rockets were fired at Israel from the Tyre region in southern Lebanon.

Explosions were heard on Thursday afternoon in Nahariyah, on Israel's west coast, and as far east as Kiryat Shemona.

Footage showed the remains of a rocket in a street, with damage to a car and nearby windows.

Lt. Col. Peter Lerner blamed "global jihad"' elements for the attack, but added Israel had not retaliated.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu responded swiftly to the attack, saying Israel was "acting on all fronts" to defend its citizens.

"Our policy is clear: to protect and to prevent. Whoever tries to harm us should know we will harm them," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 06:08 AM

Washington Post, 5 days ago.


"Rockets were fired at Israel (from Lebanon) last year but fell short of entering the country. In 2011, rockets reached Israel and damaged two buildings.

With air raid sirens blaring and civilian air traffic halted, the rocket attack Thursday rekindled memories of the 34-day Israel-Lebanon war in 2006, when Hezbollah fired as many as 4,000 rockets into northern Israel. In response, Israel developed its Iron Dome missile interceptors, deploying the mobile units in 2011."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 05:18 AM

""I NEVER said they should be removed, just that they should settle WHERE THEY WANT and accept the government OF THAT COUNTRY.""

Live where they want, you say?

They want the Palestinian state they were told they would have!

I don't recall any of your little bunch ever approving of that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 05:01 AM

""Rockets have been fired into Israel intermittently by militant groups since the Israel-Hezbollah conflict in 2006."

What the fuck is Lebanon doing firing rockets into Israel in the first place?""

I'd rather like to hear from a credible unbiased source, preferrably one without a dog in the fight, some confirmation that the above is the truth.

Until then, all we have is the word of the Israeli Military, and they've never lied, have they?

Oh look, a flight of pigs going south for the winter.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:45 AM

"Steve, and Jim the Jew-Hater,"
You have persistently defended Israel's ghettoisation of the Palestinian people; defended their abuses, massacres, military incursions, their introduction of apartheid laws, use of chemical weapons, their forcibly moving whole communities of nomads onto toxic sites in order to make room for non-Arab settlers.
You have supported a seven year long blockade that has restricted food, medicines and equipment vital to the everyday living, of an entire people.
All the crimes Israel has been accused of you have attempted to either deny or support.
That is supporting human rights abuses and war crimes
Your particular evidence has been based on your suggestion that the Palestinians have no legal right to live on the lands they have occupied for millennia - that has been your persistent claim.
You have even suggested that the Palestinians be "invited" join their Arab neighbours, willingly or otherwise.
That is giving credence to and openly advocating ethnic cleansing
You have accused those of us who find all of this horrific, inhuman and internationally illegal behaviour of being "Jew haters".
To attribute these crimes to "the Jews" rather than to "the Israeli regime", as the rest of us have, is Antisemitism in the extreme.
You are the only one here to have chosen to make this a "Jewish" thing, making you an anti Semitic ethnic cleanser.
You and your mates have defended Israel's ignored and/or defended Israel's present acts of aggression which have all but scuppered delicate peace negations which might, just might end a history of bloodshed in the Middle East - you haven't even had the bottle between you to even acknowledge that those Peace negotiations are taking place.
This makes you a squalid bunch of war-mongering extremists
Have a nice day Brucie.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

Since you have no problem with those who disagree with Bobert being called KKK, and Jim-the-Jew_Hater calls me "Brainless Bruce," you have no fucking right to either complain about or ask for proof of my naming Jim Carroll what he has shown himself to be.

Non sequitur and childish to boot. I'm amazed you're old enough to have a beard.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

Since you have no problem with those who disagree with Bobert being called KKK, and Jim-the-Jew_Hater calls me "Brainless Bruce," you have no fucking right to either complain about or ask for proof of my naming Jim Carroll what he has shown himself to be.

Non sequitur and childish to boot. I'm amazed you're old enough to have a beard.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

Since you have no problem with those who disagree with Bobert being called KKK, and Jim-the-Jew_Hater calls me "Brainless Bruce," you have no fucking right to either complain about or ask for proof of my naming Jim Carroll what he has shown himself to be.

Non sequitur and childish to boot. I'm amazed you're old enough to have a beard.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:18 PM

And still the usual name-calling & horseshit from BullshitBruce.

Talk anout "Ever Thus".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 04:15 PM

Steve, and Jim the Jew-Hater,

Since you have no problem with those who disagree with Bobert being called KKK, and Jim-the-Jew_Hater calls me "Brainless Bruce," you have no fucking right to either complain about or ask for proof of my naming Jim Carroll what he has shown himself to be.

Or are you joining the Ubermensch in demanding a different set of rules for those you support versus those you disagree with???

As I say, what a typical bunch of "Liberal" shit for brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 04:07 PM

"Well, Jim Carroll the Jew-Hater,"
Brain-dead Bruce the ethnic cleanser
"I mean, how low can you get?"
Give him a chance Steve - he's on the rise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:58 PM

Well, Jim Carroll the Jew-Hater

Let's hear you support that disgusting remark. I mean, how low can you get?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:53 PM

It is Israel's side of the story.
Can it not be heard?
Is that unacceptable Steve?
Too confusing for you to even consider?

That's just crass, Keith. It's the NYT/AIPAC/Israel gloss on the story. The post-outrage adjustment of the story. Two of those three dead guys were having nothing to do with anything when they were shot. Wrong place, wrong time, too bad, Israel shrugs. At least it wasn't kids throwing stones this time. Ever thus. Wake up, Keith, lest we all conclude that we can't argue with a bloody idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:05 PM

Invaded Lebanese sovereign territory

Still waiting for a source for that "fact" Jim.

Israel did make a big gesture of reconciliation by releasing so many convicted terrorists.
Hezbollah's gesture was to take a break from slaughtering Syrians to attempt the murder of some Israeli soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:25 PM

Well, Jim Carroll the Jew-Hater,

I never talked about ethnic cleansing OF Arabs, just about the cleansing BY ARABS that you approved of from 1948 to 1967. YOU are the ONLY one who insists on removing whole populations from areas they have been for hundreds of years.

I did say that the Palestinians, SINCE THEY DID NOT WANT TO BECOME LOYAL ISRAELI CITIZENS ( like many other Arabs who stayed in Israel in 1948) could settle in the ARAB PALESTINIAN HOMELAND of Jordan, or other Arab nations. They have a choice, unlike the Jews driven out of Arab nations. I NEVER said they should be removed, just that they should settle WHERE THEY WANT and accept the government OF THAT COUNTRY.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:08 PM

There is (was maybe) a peace conference during which:
Israel has announced an increase in the number of settlements
Invaded Lebanese sovereign territory
Mounted a security search in a refugee camp in the middle of peace negotiations (seems to have a thing about refugee camps)
Her soldiers have killed three civilian refugees and wounded four more (seems to have a thing about killing and wounding both civilians and refugees)
Her apologists here still remain silent on the fact that there is a peace conference - one has been more or less silent since he proposed ethnic cleansed the Palestinians out of Palestine
Don't thing Israel needs anybody to put her case for her - she's doing a bloody good job of it herself
Back under your bridge lads!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 01:19 PM

It is Israel's side of the story.
Can it not be heard?
Is that unacceptable Steve?
Too confusing for you to even consider?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 01:01 PM

"The Israeli military said." Yeah, right. In the New York Times. Ha bloody ha. And you quote that as authoritative. "Doing their job." Yep, shooting bystanders, eh? Job done, guys!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:43 AM

Yup - right on cue!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:27 AM

From the NY Times:

"The Israeli military said that its troops were in the Qalandia camp to back up security forces seeking to arrest a resident described by the military as a "terror operative." Hundreds of residents threw rocks, firebombs, iron bars and other items at the security forces, including from rooftops, and soldiers were called in to aid them.

The military later said an investigation indicated that camp residents had also fired at the soldiers and that the forces felt their lives were in danger, a standard that then allows the use of lethal force."

It's never a good idea to attack soldiers who are doing their job. Maybe the Palestinians will eventually figure that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:22 AM

Sorry - should read. of course:
"Palestinian Peace talks have been suspended following the killing of three Palestinians by Israeli soldierswho had entered a refugee camp in search of a suspect."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:22 AM

Palestinian Peace talks have been suspended following the killing of three Palestinians who had entered a refugee camp in search of a suspect.
If you could bear with us for a minute, our spokesman on Israeli atrocities will be along to explain why such security raids are essential during delicate peace negotiations - excuse the fact that he won't mention the Peace Conference as he, along with his friends, appear not to believe it is taking place.
Jim Carroll

Ramallah: The Palestinians have officially suspended the direct peace talks with Israel to protest against killing of three Palestinians Monday, Xinhua reported.
The Palestinians were killed during clashes with Israeli soldiers who stormed the Qalandya refugee camp in Ramallah.
Hours after the incident, Yasser Abed Rabbo, an official of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), announced that the Palestinian side decided to call off the fourth round of direct peace negotiations scheduled to be held Monday in the West Bank town of Jericho.
"We decided not to go to the scheduled round of talks today (Monday) in protest of killing three Palestinian young men in Qalandya," Abed Rabbo said.
"The ongoing Israeli escalation of violence against our people can't be justified and it only aims at toppling the efforts to resume the peace negotiations," he added.
The killing of a Palestinian young man in Jenin last week and the killing of three young men near Ramallah Monday outraged many Palestinians, mainly those who are against resumption of the peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
A Palestinian source said that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas addressed a strong letter of protest to the US administration against the Israeli violations in the West Bank.
"President Abbas urged the United States to immediately intervene to avoid more violent consequences among the populations in the West Bank," said the source who did not wish to be identified.
The bodies of the three Palestinian young men who were shot dead by the Israeli soldiers were buried in a cemetery near Ramallah.
Outraged mourners raised slogans of revenge and demanded that the peace talks with Israel be not resumed.
Witnesses said that residents of the Qalandya refugee camp pelted stones and empty glass bottles at the Israeli forces and the Israeli troops responded with live ammunition.
Ahmed Al-Bitawy, director of Palestine Medical Centre in Ramallah, said that Robin Fares, 30, was killed with a gunshot in the chest and the other two teenagers died of head injuries. He added that four more wounded people were in critical condition.
http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/world/palestinians-suspend-peace-talks-with-israel-13134.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:47 PM

Not true Jim.
I just do not lie.
Jim means the Famine thread if anyone wants to check.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 11:36 AM

You've already been caught out lying on the Irish thread - care to make it best out of three?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:33 AM

The Israelis admitted that they were on Lebanese soil
Source, or did you make that up?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:25 AM

We have been over all that so many times.

Arabs have nothing to fear from Israel.
Arabs are being slaughtered on an industrial scale all around Israel, by other Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:49 AM

The fact that you and your braindead buddies refuse to address the fact that Israel has announced the accelleration of settlements and has invaded an sovereign territory during peace negotions which might put an end to the violence and could save many hundreds of human lives shows that as they don't give a toss for peace and you support that
Stop hiding behind contradicting historically proven facts and, at the very least, attempt to defend their conference wrecking behaviour
Your crawling-mate, Brainless Bruce,has at least had the guts to put his cards on the table and suggest ethnic cleansing to be the answer to it all by:
"letting the Palestinians settle in the other Arab nations"
Is that your stance too?
Have the balls to say whether you, as the Israelis, believe the conference to be a waste of time and just window dressing by the Israelis .
"The settlers are ordinary Jews."
The people who have been driven off that land ont toxic sites are just ordinary Arabs.
The people who have been burned by white phosphorus are just ordinary Arab men, women and children.
The people who are being starved into submission and deprived of essential medicines and the means of feeding themselves and their families are just ordinary Palestinians
The people who have been evicted are just ordinary Bedoins
The people who have anexed their land and used for illegal building are nuclar-weilding thugs - stop lyingly distorting the facts and address what is happening now in an attempt to put an end to all this misery, suffering and death
Have the bottle at least to do this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:27 AM

Esteblished fact - Sabra/Shaitila would/could not have happened without Israeli co-operation

Heavily armed militia inside a crowded refugee camp do not need anyone's co-operation to commit random massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:18 AM

Not immigrants, invaders with nuclear capability - remember

The settlers are ordinary Jews.
Just immigrants hoping for a better life for themselves and their children.
People you usually speak for Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 11:01 PM

More 'tit for tat' nonsense. How about a workable peace agreement?. Fair to all???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 06:15 PM

And stop lying
I've said pleent on Egypt and Syria - I said the rebels in Syria should be armed - you, on the other hand, excused the selling of sniper bullets and suggested that Assad should be armed with riot control equipment - please, please tell me I'm lying - more than happy to provide proof again
Have a nice night
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 06:12 PM

"And, what is the objection to Jewish immigrants?"
Not immigrants, invaders with nuclear capability - remember
Esteblished fact - Sabra/Shaitila would/could not have happened without Israeli co-operation - the Lebanese Falangists were merely their hit-man
And still nothing on the conference - no surprise there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:42 PM

The Lebanese, of all people, have had bitter experience of Israeli war crimes in the shape of 3,500 massacred refugees

That massacre of refugees was by Lebanese, as was later massacres when Israelis were not even in Lebanon.

And, what is the objection to Jewish immigrants?
Foreigners, coming in and taking our country?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:35 PM

You choose not to comment on thousands and thousands of killings of ordinary people and children in Syria, Lebanon and Egypt, but choose to make an issue of one tiny incident.
Your hatred of Israelis is not rational Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 11:47 AM

"What the fuck was Israeli doing in Lebanon in the first place"

"Rockets have been fired into Israel intermittently by militant groups since the Israel-Hezbollah conflict in 2006."

What the fuck is Lebanon doing firing rockets into Israel in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 11:40 AM

Still nothing on the Conference, Israel's invasion of Lebanon and the timing of this and the announcement of yet more settlements - thought not!
So Lebanon has responded by a "no casualty" attack on the invasion of its territory - what dd you expect - a box of After Eight?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 11:05 AM

BBC News Middle East
22 August 2013 Last updated at 13:49 ET

Explosions have been heard in northern Israel, after rockets were fired across the border from southern Lebanon.

Sirens sounded across the area, but no casualties were reported. Footage showed some minor damage at a kibbutz near the coastal town of Nahariya.

Four rockets were fired from southern Lebanon, a stronghold of the Shia Islamist movement Hezbollah.

An Israeli military spokesman said one of the rockets was intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defence system.

Rockets have been fired into Israel intermittently by militant groups since the Israel-Hezbollah conflict in 2006.

But an Israeli army spokesman told the BBC he did not believe Hezbollah was behind the attack.

Lebanese news agencies reported all four rockets were fired at Israel from the Tyre region in southern Lebanon.

Explosions were heard on Thursday afternoon in Nahariyah, on Israel's west coast, and as far east as Kiryat Shemona.

Footage showed the remains of a rocket in a street, with damage to a car and nearby windows.

Lt. Col. Peter Lerner blamed "global jihad"' elements for the attack, but added Israel had not retaliated.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu responded swiftly to the attack, saying Israel was "acting on all fronts" to defend its citizens.

"Our policy is clear: to protect and to prevent. Whoever tries to harm us should know we will harm them," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:39 AM

"It is a war crime not to put warning signs around a mine field Jim."
And you know there were no signs there?
What the fuck was Israeli doing in Lebanon in the first place - and if you are going to defend yet another act of aggression by Israel, give us your evidence.
The Lebanese, of all people, have had bitter experience of Israeli war crimes in the shape of 3,500 massacred refugees - it was an invasion by Israeli troops - part of a larger exercise - also admitted by Israel.
The news first appeared in the Irish Times on the day I put it up - it's still to be found - you go and look for it, I can't be arsed because I know you will just move on to defending another act of State terrorism or war crime.
I don't make things up -that's what you do.
You choose not to comment on the peace conference; you choose not to comment on Israel's deliberate attempts to scupper it; you now appear now to be openly making up excuses for international law-breaking even before the preps have come up with anything resembling one for themselves - you are an extremist moron Keith.
If you have nothing more than "Israel didn't do it, whatever it was" go and pester someone else and stop wasting my time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:29 AM

BEIRUT (AP) — The Lebanese military said a group of Israeli soldiers crossed the border into Lebanon and were wounded in an unspecified explosion early Wednesday — a rare incident along the heavily guarded and volatile frontier.

The Israeli side appeared to dispute the location of the incident, saying four soldiers were wounded while carrying out routine activities along the border with Lebanon.

Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon said a blast wounded four soldiers, some lightly, others moderately, "in operational activity along the Lebanon border."

He said the troops were carrying out routine activities "aimed at providing quiet to the residents of the north in particular and the residents of Israel in general."

"During the operational activity, the force came upon an explosive," he said, adding that the military was investigating whether the blast was caused by an old or new explosive.

"But this activity was done and will be done again responsibly and in consideration for the security of the people of Israel," Yaalon added.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:16 AM

The Israelis admitted that they were on Lebanese soil
Source, or did you make that up?

It is a war crime not to put warning signs around a mine field Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM

I see your break hasn't done much to lessen your rabid right wing Zionist fervour – where did you go – Belfast to be with the 'Boys'?
The troops were inside the Lebanese border – early reports suggest that they stepped on a land mine – since then, there is no further information – probably in an effort not to do any more damaged other than that already done by Israel invading a sovereign territory during peace negotiations .
The Israelis admitted that they were on Lebanese soil and that they had to get them out with the help of flares.
In an early slip-of-the-tongue Netanyahu made it clear that whatever territory they trespassed on the were going to do what suited them to "defend Israel"

"Our soldiers defend us and our borders, which is what they were doing last night. We will continue to react to defend Israel's borders," he was quoted by military radio as saying. "We'll continue to work to ensure the protection of our country."

They broke international laws in doing so and have made it clear that they will do it at any time it takes their fancy – but we already knew that from their record of international war crimes.   
It has never been in question that the Israeli troops were on Lebanese soil, neither has it been disputed that they probably stepped on a landmine.
What isn't clear is when those mines were planted, which is immaterial anyway.
Despite the appalling record of injuries caused by landmines cause, they are not internationally illegal - Israel, along with United States, Russia, China, Myanmar, United Arab Emirates, Cuba, Egypt, India, Israel and Iran have all refused to sign a treaty banning them - Israel is listed as among the worst offenders – in fact many Middle Eastern countries use them.
To describe invading soldiers stepping on a landmine as "a war crime" is crassness in the extreme, even for you, thought to continue to avoid the fact that this probably deliberately timed internationally illegal incursion into a sovereign territory, along with the continued building of illegal settlements during peace talks, is par for the course for you and you rabid buddies.
Take another holiday – the last one obviously wasn't long enough.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 07:46 AM

Aug 14 (Reuters) - Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah claimed responsibility on Wednesday for explosions which wounded four Israeli soldiers who infiltrated into southern Lebanon last week.

Nasrallah told Beirut-based Al-Mayadeen television that Hezbollah fighters planted bombs in an area they knew in advance Israeli soldiers would pass through, and detonated one of them when a first group of special forces reached the area.

A second bomb was triggered when Israeli reinforcements arrived on the scene, Nasrallah said, giving the group's first account of an incident about which Israeli military officials have given few details.

"This was a controlled and deliberate operation," Nasrallah said of the explosions. "It was not accidental, and was not (caused by) a landmine left behind by the Israeli occupation."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 06:40 AM

Glad we are communicating again Don.

The Israelis have already held their hands up to this one Keith "for the defence of Israel's borders" is their line - but thanks for your explanation in advance, it was fully anticipated, late in fact!

Which news agency Jim?
And why, with the horror and carnage all around, do you highlight a tiny incident just because it involves Israel?

Decent regimes, including Israel, have stopped using landmines.
Their use is not yet a war crime, but not marking a mine field is.
The Israeli soldiers were victims of a war crime

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:35 PM

If they all lived in peace, why would it matter?

Word would get around.....and then again, why would it matter??

Money would not be as 'important' either, now would it?....as if it is really THAT important now!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 09:18 AM

Priceless!

A self styled mystical music composer who believes that we should go back to the good old days when man lived in small tribes without benefit of organisation, living hand to mouth on what he could kill and enjoying a life expectancy of twenty five years, if a neighbouring tribe didn't kill and eat him before that.

How many people would hear your music then Maestro?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 07:30 AM

Don, sit down and take it easy....calm down...what I said, is that the cardiologist relayed that to me, and yes, the music IS being used for therapy. Frankly, I was quite fascinated by what he said. When I composed it, that was not even what I was thinking about, nor a 'goal'.
So take your biases, that you may think you have about myself, and what you imagine are my 'political views', and toss them. They really get in you way. As I've posted NUMEROUS times, I am NOT a political animal..and why should I be? As far as history shows us, there have been numerous political notions..all replacing each other, all imperfect, all seeming like a 'great idea' at the time, all bringing death and destruction, until another 'brilliant' political notion comes along, and repeats the same ugly cycle again, because they have to 'replace' the former political notion, with yet another equally stupid reason for more death and destruction...while hiding the true motive behind it all, and that is WHO is going to be at the top of the heap.

it, in reality is all just vain bullshit, leaving death and destruction in its wake, looking for the next opportunity to strike again.
You don't believe me?? Cite an example, in world history, that show us different.
...and when you exhaust yourself from 'researching', jump off that stupid train to nowhere, except another train wreck....
...and Oh, how we love to take pride on being on the cowcatcher!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 07:44 PM

BTW, you are a musician, maybe even a brilliant musician, but let's face it, claims that your music has healing qualities which excite qualified medical practitioners over 4 states?

Oh c'mon! Even Walter Mitty would have balked at that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 02:07 PM

""By aligning yourselves with your 'buddies' and trying to 'elaborate' their VERY polarized, and oft recklessly uneducated positions, sometimes you tend to thoroughly embarrass yourself, while trying to draw their 'approval'....""

I have two points to make here GfS

1. I do not slavishly follow anybody else, nor seek anybody else's approval, especially not yours. I look at the evidence and draw conclusions from it, which is why I am often disrespectful to those who twist or ignore it.

2. Whenever you drop the airy fairy mystical crap, there is just a glimmer of the rational debater, but never quite enough .

You could, if you took the trouble, be coherent. You rarely take the trouble and frankly your more excitable rants are virtually incomprehensible.

You may have noticed that I tend to post in bursts with quite long gaps. This is because I have other things to do in the real world which keep me almost as busy as when I was in full time employment.

So I don't have the time or energy to decipher long, hysterical screeds.

Perhaps a step back from the mystic and spiritual? You could always start another thread on that subject?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 10:14 AM

The biggest problem that some of you guys have Don, yourself included, in regards to me and my posts, is that you project the 'center', as being the 'far right'...and therefore combat common sense, fairness, and objective thinking, considering all facts, as 'hostile' toward the 'left', and therefore come off with your 'rebuttals' from the non-thinking position, issued to both sides, for their 'argue-points'. You've done the same on 'that other issue' as well.
By aligning yourselves with your 'buddies' and trying to 'elaborate' their VERY polarized, and oft recklessly uneducated positions, sometimes you tend to thoroughly embarrass yourself, while trying to draw their 'approval'.....from their 'position' which is usually charged with nonsensical over-reactions, and hostility.
Scroll back on this thread, and you will see that what I've posted is neither polarized, nor partisan, but a rather fair assessment, taking broader things into account.

Try it.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM

""and putting the Native Americans onto 'reservations', which is a form of 'human warehousing' which has been used throughout history, including the Germans with the Jews, and the Israelis and the Palestinians.""

So I must have got something right then.

I was just thrown by the total surprise engendered by your apparently admitting that Israel can do anything wrong.

Did you take a wrong turn somewhere?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 01:07 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T: "Hooray! You got something right!"


You should try it sometime.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 06:38 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity - PM
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 12:58 AM

Oh, and 400!

GfS

Hooray! You got something right! Try to build on that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 12:58 AM

Oh, and 400!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 12:57 AM

Don, When I posted Native Americans and Europeans, what do you think I was talking about??? The Europeans WERE the occupiers in America...and because of their imperialistic 'ways', they were already making 'mischief' with the Native American Indians, before America was even the United States.
As we ALL know, this practice continued, as the Europeans gained independence from Europe, became 'Americans' with a government, whose top priorities included the acquisition of land..as much as they could dominate, and putting the Native Americans onto 'reservations', which is a form of 'human warehousing' which has been used throughout history, including the Germans with the Jews, and the Israelis and the Palestinians.

What's there not to get???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 12:53 PM

""After 45 years, Israeli settlements account for less than 2% of the territories.""

True, as far as it goes!

But what is not admitted, is the FACT that Israel has taken control of 62% of the territories, fenced it off from the Palestinian 38%, and is actively "encouraging" Palestinians to leave.

So effective is this "encouragement" that the Palestinian population of the most fertile land, Area C, has been reduced from approx 320,000 to 56,000, and is still falling.

In the same period the Israeli population of this desireable land has risen from 1,200 to 367,000.

That is the unvarnished truth of the situation, however much the anti Muslims here may wish it were not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 12:35 PM

""What's the matter, Don? You can't see the similarities between the Palestinians and Israelis, with the Europeans and the Native""

Sure can! And with the Americans and the Indians.

Same old same old.

Massively superior weapons destroying those who stand in the way of expansion.

Fits the Israel Palestine situation to a T.

When you come down and can think, take a look at the space occupied by 4 million Palestinians and compare with the area in which the 7.8 million Israelis live, and then consider the FACT that Israel is grabbing more on a daily basis.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:38 AM

Israel- Jordan border:


http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/peacetreaty.html
Annex I(a)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:26 AM

Yup, BooBad - more blogoshit from a random individual that has no more creds than anyone else. You channelling BullshitBruce these days?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:06 AM

"....since Israel is unequivocally hated in the Arab and Islamic world, prolonging the refugee crisis paints Israel as the perennial bogeyman to the masses. Playing on the popular hatred of Israel, the plight of the refugees works as a rallying cry for Arab regimes, fueling nationalism and thereby, uniting people under the banner of their leadership — reinforcing their own clutch on power by deflecting all attention from their domestic problems onto Israel. Seeing as how this crisis (and the existence of Israel in general) is such a blessing to the tyrannical Arab regimes, it's obvious that they're content prolonging the sub-human treatment of Palestinians."

The Palestinian Wrong of Return: Perpetuating Victimhood

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

The LAST set of borders for Mandate Palestine that were accepted by both sides was when TransJordan , 77% of the territory of the Mandate, was given to the Muslims, and Jews were forbidden to settle there. THOSE BORDERS include the ENTIRE West Bank as a part of the Jewish Homeland.


The peace treaties with Egypt and with Jordan that HAVE been signed acknowledge those borders, with very small corrections. THERE ARE NO TREATIES with Syria, Lebanon, et al- there are only armistice lines that have been in dispute since 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 08:15 AM

"The terms of the Treaty were designed to end all dispute and both sides agreed and signed it, so the agreed borders were, are, and will remain the legal one until new ones are drawn up"


What the FUCK???


WHAT TREATY?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 05:55 AM

"I'm only trying to point the way, if not pull you through."
Halleluja - praise the lord for all his mercies!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM

Balls???
Try grasping the reality that I laid out for the whole of the region. See if that doesn't get sobering. This is not an easy 'tit for tat', whomever get's the most blame loses, game.

Re-read this:
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 05:49 PM

and this:

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 12:27 PM

...and if you get the full ramifications of that, PLUS other factors not included...just the ones in those two posts, your balls are goin' to do some mighty shrinking, no matter what your arrogance thinks of itself!

This is a global affair, if not handled VERY delicately...so much, that the Israel/Palestinian matter would be small potatoes.....not as small as your balls.....that contains your smaller brain....where in it, even a smaller place is reserved for your prejudices!

Don't bother me with it, unless you think it through.....I'm only trying to point the way, if not pull you through.
Think LARGER!

GfS

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 03:26 AM

"Jim, you should recuse yourself from the subject"
And you and your fellow eejit shold have the balls to address the subject of this discussion - the possible effects of the Israeli regime's behaviour on the current peace talks aimed at ending decades of bloodshed, instead of using it to promote Israeli imperialist ambitions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:32 PM

After I posted a response to Stringsinger post...I forgot to read the two by Jim.
Jim, you should recuse yourself from the subject....you don't get it, and have some biased axe to grind, that is nonproductive. I apologize for mistakenly thinking that you might have been passed that. With your mindset, Israel and Palestine will never resolve anything. I'm sorry.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:26 PM

Stringsinger: "The answer is to somehow wrest the dialogue and the solutions from the politicians
and allow the people of Palestine and Israel to make reasonable decisions."


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 04:41 PM

Whoops - interrupted myself in full flow.
PISS OR GET OFF THE POT - THE PAIR OF YOU
Yours - getting less "repectful with each one of your postinngs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 04:36 PM

"The two sides go to the peace table and start arguing over who was at more fault."
My interest in the Israeli past is an academic one.
The only way it concerns me now is when it is used by prats like you pair to avoid what is happening now
You both have consistently reverted to who did what to who 100 - 200 - 300 years ago to in order to avoid any discussion on what is happening now and what should happen.
IT IS YOU WHO IS INDULGING IN THE "BLAME GAME" AND IT IS YOU WHO REFUSES TO DISCUSS ISRAEL'S PRESENT BEHAVIOR BY SHELTERING BEHIND PAST WRONGS, REAL OR IMAGINED
If you are not prepared to discuss the present situation regarding the peace talks, please allow those of us who wish to do so without the interruption of your inanities to so so - or as they say more succinctly in these parts - P

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 04:33 PM

I want to state emphatically that I don't hate Israel. I lament it having become a "militocracy". I deplore it's begging the US for more weaponry.

The US can't be a legitimate arbiter as long as it sends weapons to Israel.

It's pretty clear that the international community is opposed to the expansion of settlements, an attempt at a land grab.

There is not a wall big enough to solve this ongoing problem.

The solution may come from the young people of Israel and the dissidents.
Netanyahu is old mode and his ways don't work any more.

There have been unofficial alliances between Palestinians and Israelis and this
it the hope for the future.

Obama is on the wrong side of this issue. Kerry's negotiations are "dead in the water".

The answer is to somehow wrest the dialogue and the solutions from the politicians
and allow the people of Palestine and Israel to make reasonable decisions.

For that matter, this applies to the "politocracy" of the US as well. Get the politicians
out of the way and let the people decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:47 PM

Jim, From reading your post, it didn't address what I was saying or what I was talking about. Am I correct?
More wrongs don't justify the wrongs of the past. It's time to re-think the blame game, and get to a solution. Your enumeration of things that the Jews did, would only be countered by the things the Palestinians did as well, and NOTHING would go forward or be accomplished...now would it?
The problem MUST incorporate removing the outside agitators and influences. Any justification by the outsiders, or playing to the outsiders is only going to serve to prevent any solution. Arguing about who did what to who first, and why it was followed up by more violence is NOT going to end the violence.
So what is it?..Are you for prolonging the conflict, or resolving it?

Both sides FEEL 'justified'...playing into that is rather self defeating!

I can see it now........The two sides go to the peace table and start arguing over who was at more fault....and then beating the crap out of each other, because neither side wants to move PAST those issues!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:15 PM

"Right to return"
If you read your history books rather than relying on point-scoring cut-n-pastes you wouldf know that there was a war prior to the signing of the peace treaty in 1949 in which atrocities where committed on both sides
While the British were leaving Palestine, Israeli 'Freedom Fighters' were clearing the way for the new Israeli State by tossing hand-grenades into occupied homes.
The terms of the Treaty were designed to end all dispute and both sides agreed and signed it, so the agreed borders were, are, and will remain the legal one until new ones are drawn up
Stop ******* fighting historical battles by taking your line from the Israeli Press) and deal with what is happening now
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

There is a conference going on at the present time - if there is a "suppression" of news by the media would be refreshing to think that they are cooperating in order to bring about an acceptable settlement
However:

New York Times
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/hamas/index.html

Los Angeles Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-hamas-cracks-down-on-gaza-media-outlets-20130725,0,4115532.story

The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/8347164/Gazas-elected-Islamist-rulers-crack-down-on-secular-community.html

Israel International News
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170839#.UhEI95K1Fo4

The Commentator
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3720/hamas_cracks_down_on_palestinian_informants_in_gaza

Commentator again
http://www.thecommentator.com/articles/tag/hamas/212

Even in Palestine
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/hamas-and-the-urge-to-power/#.UhEMtZK1Fo4

News Now
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/World+News/Middle+East/Palestine/Hamas

Independant
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-claims-success-in-crackdown-on-israeli-collaborators-in-gaza-8614362.html?printService=print

The suppression doesn't seem very effective waddya think?

The Palestinians have pledged themselves to the conference.
The Israelis have announced an expansion of settlements
When Palestine was granted limited membership of the U.N. the immediate Israeli reaction was to announce an increase in settlements   
Who are the peacemakers - take your pick - oh, you already have.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 02:13 PM

Jim, Respectfully(this time), finding the 'blame' on who is more 'justified' in their positions, isn't going to 'solve' the problem. The Israelis took that land, because they felt, that logistically and tactically, they were more vulnerable to attacks from the Iranian backed and supplied Palestinians(along with other 'foreign' enemies, fighting them. The piece is a small piece, not that the size matters, but the location and proximity for missile launches, etc, etc. When, in times past, they made concessions, they were still attacked from that area. Now what I just said, in regards about that doesn't 'justify' or make the problem go away...so in that respect, you do have your point...However, the Israelis want better assurances, that if they enter another peace agreement, that the attacks from that area(or any area) will cease..and in that, they DO have a point...MEANWHILE, back in Iran, they are working up their nuclear program, and stalling for time. whether or not you, or anyone feels that their program is merely for energy, or for weapons, the fact remains, that Israel, among others feel that if Iran achieves success, that the situation will grow more tense and escalate. I think we can agree on that. I think the pressure is on Israel, to 'hold off' taking any preemptive strikes, while other nations(or 'financial concerns', allow a conflict with Iran and the Saudis, as per my previous post. It boils down to a gamble with a race against time, as to how to 'solve' the Iranian factor, in supplying the Palestinians. It should be pointed out, that when the Jews were returning, back in the late 40's and early 50's, that the Jews and Arabs did co-exist, peacefully in Israel. The British were the main targets of the more militant Jewish factions. That is a matter of history, and a true fact. Their tensions escalated later.
The wild card here is the Saudis and Iranians, more than the Israelis and Palestinians. I do believe the two could work out their differences, IF there wasn't outside 'influences', either from the other Arab nations, or the West. Would you agree on that point?...setting aside any personal biases you may feel one way or the other.
Hey, BTW..it's been a good dialogue with you on the subject..Bobad included....AND, this exchange probably has shed more light on the situation, than all the clouded areas of grey, which keeps the REAL concerns away from the mainstream information outlets!
After all, it really is a convoluted mess, with more 'players' involved, than just the Palestinians and Israelis...and in 'solving it' that HAS to be taken into account!
But, judging from the history of man, we always seem to pick the messiest, bloodiest, more pain-ridden path, making room for the exploiters, than the most direct, peaceful paths. History has clearly shown us that...but as I've said before, 'History teaches us that man doesn't seem to learn from history!'

What do you think?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:36 AM

Hamas doing it's part for the peace process and the world turns a blind eye:

Western media sources have been almost completely silent over the latest crackdown by Gaza's terrorist outfit Hamas on opposition political activists.

While The Telegraph's Robert Tait reported on 'fears' of a crackdown, and The Guardian effectively copy-and-pasted an Amnesty International press release, other outlets in the Western world have abdicated their responsibility to report a further deterioration in the terrorist enclave which has operated under a totalitarian dictatorship since Hamas came to power and refused any future electoral process.

Ma'an News Agency reports:

    "Hamas security forces have launched an arrest campaign against Fatah leaders and affiliates in the Gaza Strip, Fatah said in a statement on Sunday. Hamas security forces raided the home of Fatah official Abed al-Aziz al- Maqadma on Thursday, confiscating his computer and mobile phone."

Violence against opposition members is worsening too, with Amnesty reporting that two men have recently been tortured and forced to confess to crimes they perhaps did not commit. The pair, due to be executed this week, are among 40 prisoners on death row in Gaza. If this happened in the United States, the world's media would rightly be outraged.

But for Hamas, and indeed for other regimes around the world, the media is happy to keep the cap on the lens. This is not only bigotry, as it presupposes that Arabs either don't know any better, or that we should not expect more from them, but it is also a gross abdication of the journalistic mantra to seek out and report the story, no matter who, where or what the case may be.

Particularly noteworthy is the absence of interrogation into the matters from the world's largest broadcaster, the BBC.

The publicly funded broadcasting outfit claims it goes the extra mile for the story, and claims to be impartial in its reporting. But the BBC has not only been shown to be biased in a domestic sense, but also in its international coverage.

When some buildings are built, the BBC is there, high-definition cameras at the ready, to capture what it frames as great injustices.

But when terrorists are holding an entire body of people hostage, imprisoning and executing opposition activists, the organisation falls silent.

In two, three, five years, or a decade, when the Palestinians in Gaza finally attempt to or succeed in overthrowing their oppressive rulers, the questions will be asked, like the questions are now of Mohammed Morsi, "Why did this happen? Why didn't we see it coming? Who knew?"

But the answer is that many of us did know. We just don't work at the BBC.

Media silence as Hamas cracks down on opposition

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:21 AM

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Sizable Jewish communities existed in Judea and Samaria prior to 1948. These communities were wiped out by Palestinian Arab mobs in 1920, 1929 and 1936 and during the openly genocidal war waged by Palestinian militias and Arab governments in 1947-48. In an exhaustive and authoritative expose, Lyn Julius reminds us that:

    Until it was wiped out by Palestinian pogroms in 1929, there was a large Jewish community in the center of Hebron.

    The Jewish population of Jerusalem (which has had a Jewish majority since at least the second half of the 19th century) was dispossessed by the Arab riots of 1929 and 1936 (when most fled what is now called the Muslim Quarter). In 1948, the Jordanian Legion expelled all the Jews remaining in the East of the city and destroyed its holy places.

    "Another 16,684.421 dunams of Jewish land in the rural West Bank – including the Gush Etzion settlements, land between Nablus, Jenin and Tulkarm, and in Bethlehem and Hebron – were seized by the Jordanians after 1948."

    The 'Jewish settlements' north of Jerusalem, Atarot and Neve Yaakov, were evacuated in 1948, under the declared threat of advancing Arab armies to massacre all the Jews in their path.

    Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians live on land in and around Jerusalem that is still owned by the Jewish National Fund, including the Kalandia "refugee camp" and the Deheishe "refugee camp" south of Bethlehem.

    In Abu Dis, where Palestinians want to establish their government, 600 dunams of land are Jewish-owned. The Arab riots of 1929 and 1936 forced Jews to flee those areas.

    Iraqi and Iranian Jews owned 145,976 dunams on the West Bank which they had to leave due to violence.

And unlike the Palestinian Arabs, these Jewish communities were displaced or destroyed through no fault of their own. As even Benny Morris, the eminence grise of historians who have accused Israel of expulsions in 1948 has stated,"[t]he Arabs have only themselves to blame for the (unexpected) results of the war that they launched with the aim of "ethnically cleansing" Palestine of the Jews."

In sum, the supposed collective "right of return" of "refugees" as promoted by anti-Israel propagandists, if applied fairly to all as per the language of the clauses invoked, would provide Israel with an undeniable claim to huge, disputed areas in Jerusalem, Hebron, Gush Etzion, Bethlehem, Abu Dis, the north of Jerusalem up to Ramallah, and large swaths of the West Bank.

The "Right of Return"… to Judea and Samaria.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM

To underline all this - from three days ago:
http://kairossouthernafrica.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/palestine-update-ranjan-solomon-palestine-israel-ecumenical-forum/
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 09:35 AM

Only a partial report of what he said - we await the full text

What he also said was:
"He told them he had come to the region for the sixth time to express his support for the renewed peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians. "I have never been this optimist," he said, adding that the international community had never had such expectations and hope that the peace process would reach a solution.
"This time, I expect real peace," the UN head said, urging both sides ''to be patient'' and adding that negotiations are still the best way to reach a two-state solution. "The Israeli and Palestinian people are neighbors and have no choice but to live in harmony and peace, side by side."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-faces-bias-at-un-ban-says/

"He urged Israel to overcome its skepticism and the Palestinians to unify, in order to achieve two states living in peace – three states would be unacceptable."
http://www.debka.com/newsupdatepopup/5374/

Bias against Israel has been recognised as a fact for decades, it has also been recognised that that bias is a direct result of Israeli aggressive policy.
Ky moon's statement makes it clear that any present bias has arisen from the Middle East conflict.
This is why the present peace talks are so vital, and it is also why Israeli policy of continued expansion of settlements while the talks are in progress can only be seen as a deliberate attempt to scuttle those talks - (another indication of this is the refusal of the Two Stooges to even attempt to mention, let alone justify that expansion.
Once more - as the man said:   
"The Israeli and Palestinian people are neighbors and have no choice but to live in harmony and peace, side by side."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 08:34 AM

"United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon met with students at the UN headquarters in Jerusalem on Friday afternoon, and admitted that his organization was biased against Israel.

Responding to a student who said Israelis felt their country was discriminated against in the international organization, Ban confirmed that there was a biased attitude towards the Israeli people and Israeli government, stressing that it was "an unfortunate situation."

UN chief admits bias against Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 04:35 AM

From "THE BEAST" article;
"The borders established in 1949 (which were the borders at the start of June 1967) were therefore particularly arbitrary—with Arabs and Jews asserting claims and counter-claims every which way. Just as Palestinians do not believe they forfeited their rights to the land Israel won in June 1967, how can they argue that Jews forfeited their rights to the West Bank when it was not part of Israel after 1949? Jews continued to pine for the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem, for the overrun settlement (meaning community) of Gush Etzion, for the ancient Jewish city of Hebron."
I suggest that people compare the maps of agreed Palestine with today's maps.
Palestine is now a defensive and beleaguered ghetto undergoing a punishing and inhuman blockade.
This has been brought about by a consistent and long-term expansionist policy in which the Israelis have seized land and driven out the legal occupants.
When forced, they have returned pieces of the least `habitable land "as a gesture of compromise", cherry-picking the best for themselves.
The seized land has been long recognised as being 'illegal', or 'disputed' by the U.N. and most of the rest of the world and has only been able to be used for Israeli settlements through the continual use of the U.S. veto.
The 1949 borders remain the legal ones and only negotiation can change them.
Israel, by its present aggressive actions has shown they are not interested in any negotiations that will not give them the right to the land they have seized - as 'Insanity' pointed out "They won. It happens" - land-grabbing by bomb and gun.
It is this that this 'band of brothers' refuse to discuss here, why would they want to, present Israeli action is indefensible and they know it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 05:49 PM

bobad: "Demonizing Israel, as the opening assumptions of these talks implicitly do, feeds into the blame-game against Israel, gives Palestinians a free pass they don't deserve and makes that day harder to reach."

Ahh!..My dear fellow, you have hit on the nerve of the pulse...'The Blame Game'! As long as 'We the people' are so obsessed with 'who is more justified' because who get's the lion's share of the blame, nothing will get done!..and THAT is exactly what they(the multinational industrialist bankers) want! That is the exact illusion, of why the PERCEIVED blame is falling on Obama, for his handling of the Middle East. Obama is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing!...for 'them'(see above)...and that is seemingly waffling, as the Mid East gets thoroughly destabilized!...not for Israel's sake, but for the oil's sake...and NAFTA...and the Keystone pipeline! Remember, in case you ever looked into it, that in the NAFTA agreement, 60% of the oil, produced in North America(Canada included) had to be exported overseas! Most likely China and the U.K, and Europe....BUT...we also have a treaty put in place with Saudi Arabia, in 1979, by Henry Kissinger, under the Carter Administration, that we buy their oil, they buy our Treasury Bonds, AND we would not expand our drilling domestically!! The only ways out of that, is if Saudi Arabia falls, let's say to the Muslim Brotherhood, OR turmoil surrounding the Suez makes it virtually impossible to ship the oil. Personally, I think these two events MAY coincide...then we get to BLAME that crap on them, and justify drilling here, shipping the oil overseas, and everyone goes home happy...that is if you are one of the 'elite multinational banker/industrialists'. that probably is a huge reason that the Bank of London, was a primary backer of Obama's first run!..and as long as us 'wee folk' are consumed with bickering with each other, or 'left' vs 'right' (another illusion), everything just goes on schedule, with THAT issue never being addressed!...
....but there IS one glitch....Israel, and IT'S will to survive. What if they take out Iran before Iran gets to sponsor a takeover of the Saudis??...Oh my!...those nasty little Jews, huh?
the whole thing is like a multi-headed snake, looking to devour something, anything...and just might start working on it' own tail. But just keep on looking for someone to blame it on...and you'll miss most of the whole movie!
THEATER! ......
...or maybe Jim is right....."- though I don't think he's bright enough to have spotted it."

BTW, what are you looking at?....spotted owls?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 03:21 PM

"Legally, it was only in the late 1970s, thanks to the biased United Nations, that the Fourth Geneva Convention was invoked, treating Israel as a so-called "occupying power" in the territories it now controlled post-1967. The critique offered in Security Council Resolution 446 of March 1979—and many others—that Israel "as the occupying Power," was compelled "to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and, in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories" was absurd. The Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949 sought to prevent a recurrence of Nazi Germany's Hitlerian crimes of conquering a country (which the West Bank wasn't), and transferring its own citizens, often involuntarily (when Israeli settlers volunteer), as part of a brutal colonialist occupation and often an extermination campaign. Using European imperialist words like "colonialist" and "occupation" for the more ambiguous situation in the Israel-Palestine border dispute distorted the area's murky history and legal status. This misapplied law misled many, especially radical Europeans, into thinking that Israel was both colonialist and Hitlerian in its actions—when, among other facts, the Palestinians population has practically quadrupled since 1967."


"....understanding that two people are in love with the same land, the borders of a two-state solution have to minimize the number of people displaced, maximize the viability of both new entities, and try to give both countries enough so that they are happier with what they have than what their radicals delude them into believing they could get. Only with this kind of mutual respect, mutual recognition, and mutual flexibility, will we start inching toward peace. Demonizing Israel, as the opening assumptions of these talks implicitly do, feeds into the blame-game against Israel, gives Palestinians a free pass they don't deserve and makes that day harder to reach."

Ending the Blame Game Through Talks

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 12:27 PM

Stringsinger: "Zionism has broken international laws repeatedly.
So have Islamic extremists. One thing that the two have in common is intractable
religious beliefs. That shows from whence their "laws" emanate."

'Correcto mundo'....Whereas the Native Americans, it was more about 'Spirituality' and the 'unseen'. Imagine if the Native Americans and Nikola Tesla had gotten together!!! instead of the financial industrial barons of the day, that owned the steel, copper and railroads!!..and BTW, the Native Americans, Hopi in particular(as well as others), and the Judea/Christian prophetic texts have MORE in common, than any of the pseudo Christian cults(read 'religions'), who have merged with secular governments, and co-opted each other!! Whereas, the Arabs and Jews are familial, and are actually related to each other!! If you don't know what that's about, just look it up. Don't you just hate it when the world steps into a family squabble??.....(OK, back to the other stuff..)
The Jewish people, after enduring the Holocaust wanted to leave Europe, and return to their homeland, which, at the time was a British protectorate. The British government had in place immigration quotas for that area, and the Jews were flocking back in larger numbers than British 'laws' would allow, and therefore were more restrictive than the Jews were willing to tolerate. So they 'snuck' back in large numbers, using any method they could, including freighters coming in through the British blockades!! (See the classic film 'Exodus' for a pretty accurate account of that period). Once in Israel, there were certain Jewish factions, who wanted complete autonomy, both from the (mostly Arab) occupants of the land, AND the British, who, basically controlled their occupation as a protectorate. Their immigration ceilings, were said to be placed at what they were, because the British didn't think they could handle such a large influx of people, given the infrastructure, at the time.
Certain Jewish groups acted as what today would be called 'terrorists'.
Of course that is all in perception. What is today's 'terrorist', if they are successful, is tomorrow's 'Freedom Fighters' (depending on who wins). Ironic, being as the Boston Tea Party, in protesting Britain's high taxation without representation, dressed up as Native American Indians!!!!...to disguise themselves, and leave room to shift the blame!!!

OK, fast forward: Then there was the The Oslo I Accord or Oslo I, officially called the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, or Declaration of Principles...and instead of typing a bunch more I'll just Do This.
Now, Israel, since has made concessions to the Palestinians, and claim that the Palestinians have broken that, and every peace or cease-fire treaty since. So they hold their line on their justifications for retaliations, while the Palestinians hold theirs in breaking the treaties. Two things to keep in mind, and this is something that Israelis are well aware of, that Iran, and other Muslim controlled governments, are funding the Palestinians,and others, to 'wipe Israel off the face of the map'..(their words of intention, not mine). The Palestinians, want a homeland, which is completely understandable, as do the Israeli Jews, understandable...However, with a different agenda, the Palestinians are being USED to fight a proxy war for Iran!! (Sorta reminiscent of those 'Indians' at the Boston Tea Party, huh?)..Israel defends itself, Palestinians get beat up, everybody bitches at Israel for being the 'aggressors', and using 'tactics' they learned from the German Nazi's, that beat them up, pre- and during WWII.
A couple of things here...The Brits were not as 'friendly' to the Jews, or Israel, as compared to their expediency for Arab controlled oil...so there still is a left-over bias that the Brits have toward the Jews and/in Israel. You can see that, in whatever posts come from our U.K. friends. Remember, that the Jews feel they were regarded by Europeans as the 'niggers of Europe'.
The other thing to keep in mind, is that the Jews in Israel have a sense that they are fighting for their survival, not only as a nation, but as a people! Virtually every citizen is armed with Automatic weapons and gas masks! That's quite a different mindset than exists in America or Britain, where 'political correctness' has replaced common sense, as a necessity to survive as a people and a nation!!
Also, another thing to keep in mind, is that 'political ideologues' most often USE tactics to combat 'symptomatic' issues to further their agendas, instead of getting to the root of the problems, and their devotees parrot those 'symptomatic remedies'!!!!!..While the 'elite political/corporate leaders' are seeking personal control through greed, and peddle fear to achieve it. Just take a look around!!! (sorta like the political leaders use both the 'right and left', like the Iranians use the Palestinians, and other groups to settle their differences for 'power'!!!! Do ya' think the 'average' Iranian on the street gives a rat's ass about Israel??....only from whatever left over bias has filtered down to them.....sorta like the average Brit and their inclinations on how they view the struggle between the Palestinians and Israel.

Now, I have posted this WITHOUT a value judgement favoring either side of the controversy.....and as any decent psychologist/counselor will tell you, it's PERCEPTION, PERCEPTION, PERCEPTION....much like any accomplished musician will tell you, it's PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE~!!!!

Jim Carroll: "You, he and 'Guest from Insanity' have ignored every scrap of evidence placed before you.
You won't even discuss the fact that Israel continues to build settlements in the middle of peace negotiations, which will, and has probably been designed to wreck any settlement that doesn't allow continuing illegal Israeli expansion of it's territory."

Jim Carroll: "Guest from Insanity has just put it in a nutshell - "They won. It happens" - if you've got big enough guns you are entitled to do whatever you please - the 'Good ol' American' way.
And what a magnificent example he provided in the Native Americans - though I don't think he's bright enough to have spotted it. Take a look at the then-and now Palestine maps and make your own comparisons of what happened to them and what is happening in Palestine - "


Bet me!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 12:18 PM

The claim by Israel that the settlements are illegal is based entirely on its refusal to accept the fourth Geneva Convention - cherrypicking which law it will obey and which it ignores.
The international lawmakers and administrators, The Security Council say that they are illegal, Israel says they they aren't.
The judge, jury, witnesses - the rest of the world says he is guilty; Bill the Burglar says he isn't!
All of which does not get around the fact that to accelerate building on (at the very least, disputed land in the middle of peace talks is an act of open provocation showing that has no desire whatever for a peaceful settlement
When Palestine was given observer status by the U.N. Israeli retaliated by accelerating their Settlement programme, thus more or less guaranteeing continuing bloodshed - both Palestinian and Israeli, thus proving they are prepared to sacrifice the lives of their own people in order to prevent Palestine having even a limited voice in international affairs.
Jim Carroll

The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law,[1][2][3][4][5] but Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law[6] because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War, due to lack of a legal sovereign of these territories.[7] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.[8][9]
Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979 and 1980.[10][11][12] UN Security Council Resolution 446 refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and calls upon Israel to desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup. The reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions has declared the settlements illegal[13] as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice[14] and the International Committee of the Red Cross.
The position of successive Israeli governments is that all authorized settlements are entirely legal and consistent with international law,[15] despite Israel's armistice agreements having all being with High Contracting Parties.[16] In practice, Israel does not accept that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies de jure, but has stated that on humanitarian issues it will govern itself de facto by its provisions, without specifying which these are.[17][18] The majority of legal scholars hold the settlements to violate international law, while others have offered dissenting views supporting the Israeli position.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM

It's very sad that once again what is considered legal might be destructive and immoral.
Then again, it's a matter of whose law is chosen to be honored and interpreted.
Reminding people that slavery was once "the law" and the destruction of native Americans was once "the law" doesn't seem to impact on the current idolatry for those whose "law"
defends their position politically. Zionism has broken international laws repeatedly.
So have Islamic extremists. One thing that the two have in common is intractable
religious beliefs. That shows from whence their "laws" emanate.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 10:37 AM

"Commentary Magazine. Another Zionist propaganda outlet/neo-conservative blog. Must be true."
As is The Los Angeles 'Jewish Journal' - an anti-Islamist newspaper which puts the entire blame of the Middle East problems on the Arabs and does not pretend otherwise
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 10:06 AM

"According to international law, Israel has a legal right to settle in the West Bank. After 45 years, Israeli settlements account for less than 2% of the territories. Our willingness to dismantle settlements and give up precious land for a hope of peace-- which we've demonstrated in the past-- is not an endorsement of the spurious accusation that settlements are illegal. It's a statement of how much we value peace."

"What is illegal, immoral and unacceptable is the attempt to use this dispute to delegitimize the Jewish state."

ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 10:05 AM

"The oft-used term 'occupied Palestinian territories' has no basis whatsoever in law or fact," Alan Baker, director of the Institute for Contemporary Affairs at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs and a member of Levy's commission, wrote recently in USA Today.

"The territories are neither occupied nor are they Palestinian. No legal determination has ever been made as to their sovereignty, and by agreement between Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization, they are no more than 'disputed' pending a negotiated solution, with both sides claiming rights to the territory."

Baker adds that Israel has "solid legal rights" to the territory, including "the rights granted to the Jewish people by the 1917 Balfour Declaration, the 1923 San Remo Declaration, the League of Nations Mandate instrument and the United Nations Charter," and that the Oslo agreements "contain no prohibition whatsoever on building settlements in those parts of the territory agreed upon as remaining under Israel's control."

Love 'em or hate 'em, Settlements are not illegal

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 09:48 AM

Commentary Magazine. Another Zionist propaganda outlet/neo-conservative blog. Must be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 09:46 AM

"With its anti-settlement policy, the EU is sending a clear signal that it is acceptable for the Arab states, goaded by the Palestinian leadership, to 'ethnically cleanse' the Jewish population of the so-called Palestinian territories, the Middle East and North Africa, but that Jews living a few meters beyond the 1948 armistice lines are obstacles to peace.

The idea that the territories beyond the Green Line should be Jew-free received a ringing endorsement from Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas just as US secretary of state John Kerry sat Israelis and Palestinians down to peace talks in Washington DC. Not a single Israeli would be allowed in a Palestinian state, Abbas announced."

ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 08:54 AM

"The ultimate end of the illicit effort to use international law to delegitimize the settlements is clear—it is the same argument used by Israel's enemies to delegitimize the Jewish state entirely. Those who consider themselves friends of Israel but opponents of the settlement policy should carefully consider whether, in advancing these illegitimate and specious arguments, they will eventually be unable to resist the logic of the argument that says—falsely and without a shred of supporting evidence from international law itself—that Israel is illegitimate."

The Illegal-Settlements Myth

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 08:39 AM

"The British Mandate recognized the right of the Jewish people to "close settlement" in the whole of the Mandated territory. It was provided that local conditions might require Great Britain to "postpone" or "withhold" Jewish settlement in what is now Jordan. This was done in 1922. But the Jewish right of settlement in Palestine west of the Jordan river, that is, in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, was made unassailable. That right has never been terminated and cannot be terminated except by a recognized peace between Israel and its neighbors. And perhaps not even then, in view of Article 80 of the U.N. Charter, "the Palestine article," which provides that "nothing in the Charter shall be construed ... to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments...."

Eugene V. Rostow

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 08:00 AM

Self-declared Zionist mouthpiece Gatestone again
You really are out of your depth here.
Your mate has proposed the mass (and inevitably compulsory) deportation of the entire Palestinian population from their legally recognised home to "other Arab nations.
You, he and 'Guest from Insanity' have ignored every scrap of evidence placed before you.
You won't even discuss the fact that Israel continues to build settlements in the middle of peace negotiations, which will, and has probably been designed to wreck any settlement that doesn't allow continuing illegal Israeli expansion of it's territory.
Instead you once again produce right-wing-Zionist garbage which, ebven it bore the slightest resemblance to fact, has SFA to the subject in hand.
Go read 'Gatestone's' policy statement, who the Institute's members are, what they say and what they have done - stop making yourself a biger prattthan you already have.
Try this one as a taster, from their own arcives.
"EU Anti-Zionist Campaign Unveiled"
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1794/eu-anti-zionist-campaign
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 06:58 AM

"The mistreatment of Palestinians at the hands of the Lebanese authorities always reminds one of those university professors and political commentators living in the U.S. who pretend to be "pro-Palestinian." They focus their attacks on Israel, and ignore the real suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of Arab countries."

"As Israeli authorities issued permits last week to hundreds of thousands of West Bank Palestinians to visit Israel, the Lebanese government decided to ban Palestinian refugees fleeing the war in Syria from entering Lebanon.

So while Palestinians are being slaughtered and forced out of their homes in Syria, the Lebanese government is preventing them from entering Lebanon.

The Israeli permits, which were issued on the occasion of the Muslim feast of Eid al-Fitr, enabled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to visit shopping malls, restaurants and beaches in Tel Aviv, Jaffa, Haifa, Jerusalem and Acre.

But as the West Bank Palestinians were celebrating the feast in Israel, thousands of their brethren found themselves stranded along the border between Syria and Lebanon."

Palestinians Being Slaughtered, Displaced
Where are the "Pro-Palestinians"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 03:07 AM

There's documented evidence of every single example I gave and it (and more) has been put up in the form of linked articles on this thread and every other one we've ever argued on over and over again.
We have just had a plain, black-and-white suggestion that the Palestinians should be ethnically cleansed out of the area - it really doesn't come any more OTT than that
This comes from someone who is now working on the level of lying by claiming that I, we, whoever, has suggested that the Israelis should be driven "into the sea" and is an anti Semite - the majority of this thread who oppose Israeli policy, goose-steppers.
He knows damn well I was referring to the Israeli behaviour towards the Palestinians in my somewhat, as you say OTT way, - not thick (though he is that too), he just doesn't have anything else to cling to
Brucie's suggestion that all Palestinians should be invited to "settle in other Arab nations" is plain, simple ethnic cleansing; there is no other possible name for it.
No Israeli regime has ever gone as far as to propose the removal of an entire population - they wouldn't dare; the whole of the Jewish people who suffered similar treatment at the hands of despotic regimes in Russia and Germany simply wouldn't go along with it; this is the language of the pogrom.
Guest from Insanity has just put it in a nutshell - "They won. It happens" - if you've got big enough guns you are entitled to do whatever you please - the 'Good ol' American' way.
And what a magnificent example he provided in the Native Americans - though I don't think he's bright enough to have spotted it. Take a look at the then-and now Palestine maps and make your own comparisons of what happened to them and what is happening in Palestine - add this to Brucie's "invited them to settle in other Arab nations" -and what have you got - 'bibbety, bobbety, boo'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 10:52 PM

What's the matter, Don? You can't see the similarities between the Palestinians and Israelis, with the Europeans and the Native Americans....with all those extra brain cells you have??..or do you only have those extra brain cells before you give yourself an enema???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:35 PM

And Goofus, you can take your one brain cell and shove it you know where.

If you don't know, photocopy your arse and look for the hole in the middle.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:27 PM

""Jim Carroll:"Put them in gas ovens, drive them into the desert, starve them into submission, cut off their water and electricity supplies, re-settle them on poisonous dumps.... all have a familiar ring to it.""

Are you really thick, or just devious?

You know damn well that was Jim's somewhat OTT description of the Israeli government's attitude and actions toward Palestinians, not a suggestion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 06:24 PM

No shit, Sherlock!...They won. It happens. When the score goes up on the scoreboard, there is no accompanying explanation or editorial about it, now is there?..Just the score.....ask any Native American, hangin' out in an alley, wrapped in an old J.C. Penney's blanket with a bottle of Thunderbird in a brown sack. That don't bother you does it, Ol' Chap??
Ya' still want to take Ireland, too??

Unbelievable fuckin' hypocrites!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:32 PM

Now we seem to have moved away from your disgusting claim that every crime committed by the various Israeli regimes is "Jewish" and therefore everybody who criticises those crimes is an Anti-Semite....
The borders drawn up at the establishment of the State of Israel are the legal borders agreed at the time.
As the maps which have been linked to on this thread, they have been grotesquely distorted and infringes upon by a whole string of regimes made up of serial war criminals whose crimes are matter not of agenda-driven accusation but actual factual record and are included in the list of over one hundred resolutions of condemnation which have been vetoed by the U.S. at the United Nations.
Those crimes include (from the outset of the State) murderous grenade attacks on family homes in order to clear the way for the new settlers, regular incursions into the legally agreed territory of Palestine, the use of chemical weapons, heavy artillery and sophisticated armament by trained troops on unarmed and unresisting civilians, including women and children, the destruction of homes, schools, hospitals (many of these occupied), the building of a Berlin-type wall cutting farmers off from both the wherewithal to feed their families and the means to a livelihood, the deliberate prevention of fishermen from going about their trade, a now eight year blockade which has caused malnutrition – especially among children....... the list is terrifyingly endless.
You could add to this the facilitating the massacre of three and a half thousand unarmed refugees.
None of this is invention – it is all a matter of documented fact – it is the history of the State of Israel.
"proposed letting the Palestinians settle in the other Arab nations"
I am delighted that you have at last had the bottle to put come out of the closet with your 'ethnic cleansing' proposal.
Despite the extreme shrinking of Palestine carried out through the above methods, the present territory occupied is legal and is documented as such.
Go as far back in history as you want with your revolting claims, it is (now only a small part – you have the maps) the Palestinian homeland, and only a re-negotiaton will change that.
That is unlikely to happen because (as you have made clear by your refusal even to discuss the matter) the Israelis are not the slightest bit interested in negotiations unless the end result is their being allowed to hold on to the territory they are now developing illegally, but that they be allowed to continue to expand and build yet more settlements – their present behaviour which you have refused even to acknowledge makes that perfectly clear.
Your suggestion that 'the Palestinian people be allowed to "settle in other Arab nations" is identical to the British National Party's demand that "all immigrants be repatriated, forcibly or voluntarily" ethnic cleansing, pure and simple NO ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS EVER DARED TO MAKE SUCH AN OBSCENE SUGGESTION.
Delighted to see you have removed the mask at long last.
That the Palestinians do not want Israel a s a neighbour is not only understandable they would be ******* insane if they did, would you want to live next door to a bunch of armed thugs with a history of serial murderous violence stretching back ha]lf a century or more.
If they lived in Britain they would have been served with an ASBO six decades ago.
Now about continuing to build settlements, invade Lebanese territory and all the other thuggish acts, during a peace conference (we should be so lucky!!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 04:10 PM

Well, here's a question to ask the ever so educated 'liberal elite'.......So, you 'give' Israel to the Palestinians, were do the Israelis go?

..and while you're at it, when the peoples who occupied the lands, what is Israel, it was a desolate, non-productive, and a non-prospering piece of dry dirt....the same could be said for the Gaza. Why is it, that in Jewish hands, the land has flourished, but in the various Arab hands, it is/was nothing?...as with the lands they are occupying now? Who's 'fault' is that?...And now that the Jewish people have made their land flourish, and prosper, why give it away to people who don't seem to want to do that for themselves???...How is that unfair???
The Jewish people had that land for over 2000 years....and the 'United States' has occupied 'America', as its country, for about 250 years...which they took and occupied by war, fraud and 'staking a claim', on other people's land, and then make them live on worthless reservations (until they discover oil and minerals).....but you seem to look the other way.
Why is that??
Why is that just peachy-keen with you, who in turn have a bug up your ass about the Jewish people and Israel??
Explain that to us...OK??

Eagerly awaiting an intelligent response.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 04:08 PM

"The suggestion is never considered that the attacking parties in the 1967 war - Syria and Jordan - should be made to forfeit territory as the price for their aggression. No Arab state has been held to account for 'ethnically cleansing' their innocent Jewish citizens whom they branded, from1948 onwards, as 'members of the minority of Palestine'. Instead, the Arab states have pocketed the spoils. It goes without saying that no Arab government has paid out any compensation for lost Jewish property.

Israel is expected to make all the concessions."

How the EU's settlement policy legitimises mass dispossession

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 11:57 AM

Wrong, Jim.

The PALESTINIANS have stated that they will not be happy until EVERY JEW has been driven out of "Palestine"- and have defined ( see their web sites) "Palestine as the ENTIRE Mandate Palestine area, including all of what is now Israel.

And I note you have no disagreement at all with the "Liberal" viewpoint, and that you believe that Jews should be prohibited from access to their most holy site.


YOU HAVE PROPOSED DRIVING OUT A WHOLE NATION INTO THE SEA AS YOU STATE THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN FOR MANY THOUSANDS OF YEARS - THE ISRAELIS.

**I** proposed letting the Palestinians settle in the other Arab nations, as the majority of the Jews driven out of Arab nations have been settled in Israel. You know, like in the ARAB HOMELAND OF MANDATE PALESTINE, which was reserved exclusively for Moslems.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

Reprint from bobad: "Europe's big mistake - when they took the West, which had been 'illegally' occupied by the Native Americans......
proceed........

GfS

P.S. The above is not refuting nor particularly disagreeing or agreeing with bobad...but it IS food for thought!..(Tends to give hypocrites indigestion!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 11:00 AM

beardedbruce: "So, Don, you are illiterate as well as a a bigot, or else you are an intentional liar."

Excellently said!!!..but if he doesn't see it, you might as well throw in 'stupid'!!!!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 10:38 AM

"After all, those Jews have no right to even be alive."
You appear to be hell bent on single handedly turning this into an anti-Semitic rant against all Jewish people
YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE TALKING ABOUT "JEWS" - EVERYBODY ELSE IS TALKING ABOUT ISRAELIS
ONLY YOU HAVE PROPOSED DRIVING OUT A WHOLE NATION INTO THE DESERT AS THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN FOR MANY CENTURIES - THE PALESTINIANS
If you are Jewish you have disgraced them - including the six million.
By continuing to ignore the subject of this discussion - the Israeli's behavior during the progress of peace talks you are indicating that those talks are of no value and the Israeli presence there is hypocritical gesturing
As Boo Boo seems to have slunk back to Jellystone Park, you are left alone to rant and spout your racist vitriol
Enjoy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 10:31 AM

Wise words from a wise man and a symbol of hope for the future:

"I really am very proud in what I am doing," says Suaed, who hails from a large family in which everyone enlisted into the IDF, many of them serving in combat units.

"I am a citizen of the state, it doesn't matter whether Bedouin or Jewish, and am proud to lend my country a hand. Yes, this is my country, and I want to serve it; and, on the way, mostly, I want the Bedouin/Arab sector to understand and internalize that service in the army will only do our society good. Social distancing and separation will lead us nowhere," he says.

'Bedouin or Jewish, I am proud to serve my country'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 10:26 AM

Israel's big mistake - when they retook the West Bank, which had been illegally occupied by Jordan, Moshe Dayan convinced the Arabs, who had been granted Jordanian citizenship and were preparing to leave for Jordan, to stay in the naive assumption that they could co-exist peacefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 09:07 AM

More "Liberal" Viewpoint:

The Mandate Palestine territory was designated as a "Jewish Homeland" in the treaties creating it. When the Mandate Power, Great Britain, saw that there was a large degree of conflict between Arabs and Jews ( ON BOTH SIDES) they split off 77% of the Mandate territory to create an "Arab Homeland" of TransJordan. Jews were forbidden from settling there. The remaining 23% was to be the "Jewish Homeland", but was open to all religious groups. When the UN partitioned the remaining part of the Mandate, the Arabs refused to accept that, and attacked Israel. No Arab nation has ever accepted the 1948 truce line as a border ( see treaties with Egypt and Jordan)
"Liberal" conclusion: We have to insist that Israel go back to the 1948 truce lines as a border, and give the Palestinians whatever else they want.

After all, those Jews have no right to even be alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:58 AM

The "Liberal" Viewpoint:

Under Arab rule, the Jews were not allowed access to their holy sites in Jerusalem. Under Israeli rule, the Arabs have retained access and control of their holy sites in Jerusalem.
"Liberal" conclusion: We have to give the holy sites in Jerusalem to the Palestinians.

Under Arab rule, the West Bank was ethnically cleaned of Jews who had lived there for centuries. Under Israeli rule, the West Bank was open to settlement by Jews and Arabs, although Jewish settlement was restricted to certain areas.
"Liberal" conclusion: We have to give the entire West Bank to the Palestinians

In the creation of Israel, 640,000 Arab Moslems fled the new state, while 820,000 Jews were driven out of the Arab nations.
"Liberal"conclusion: The Palestinians deserve everything, while the Jews should be required to give up whatever the Palestinians want.


The state of Israel has accepted the need for a Palestinian state, and have arrested and kept in jail convicted Palestinian terrorists ( which they are now releasing) who have killed civilians, while the Palestinians kill anyone they suspect of seeking peace, and have stated that they will only settle for the elimination of all Jews in "Palestine", which they have defined to include all of the present state of Israel.
"Liberal" conclusion: The Jews are vicious genocidal killers, and the Palestinians only want peace ( once they have killed all the Jews)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:28 AM

Don T.:"Not one single person on this or any other thread has suggested killing anyone."



Jim Carroll:"Put them in gas ovens, drive them into the desert, starve them into submission, cut off their water and electricity supplies, re-settle them on poisonous dumps.... all have a familiar ring to it."

The "Liberals" here have stated this, not those who support Israel.



So, Don, you are illiterate as well as a a bigot, or else you are an intentional liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 07:51 AM

""and NOW- Gaza has already been given to them""

We have places like Gaza in the UK.

They're called prisons and we put criminals in them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 07:47 AM

""And it is Jim who wants the genocide and ovens- I would be happy to have them go to the Arab nations that SHOULD have accepted them in 1948 but chose to make their lives hell .


But then, those here have never cared about the Palestinians- just about killing Jews.""

The meds ain't working BB. Go see your quack and get something stronger.

Meanwhile, cut down on the more stupid comments, especially where you cannot produce any evidence for the slander.

Not one single person on this or any other thread has suggested killing anyone.

A few of you Israel supporters have tried to justify the IDF's murders of Palestinians.........UNSUCCESSFULLY!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 05:32 PM

The U.N...every "so-called liberal's" dream....except when they give Israel back it's lands, after the holocaust. Some of your nonsense is indicative of how really bigoted some of you guys are!

Don't like it??..Tough beans!..It's the way it is!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:40 PM

BullshitBruce: Get help. Soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:27 PM

To be precise:



All this is bullshit, according to our resident "Black Democrats are "dumb Ni**ers" Greggie boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:23 PM

So the fact that the Palestinians already have a state, and it is 77% of Mandate Palestine, is meaningless to you, GregF?

So the fact that there were more displaced Jews than Palestinian Moslems means nothing to you?

So the fact that under Arab rule, Jewish holy sites in Jeruselem were forbidden to Jews, and under Israeli rule the Arabs retain and control access to the Moslem holy sites?





All this is bullshit, according to our resident "They all are "dumb Ni**ers" Greggie boy

What a true representation of the "Liberal View"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:08 PM

And again - a truckload of BullshitBruce horseshit, having bugger-all to do with anything under discussion .

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 01:57 PM

You seem a little confused- YOU are the one who assigns all those evil acts to Jews.

I have asked what you think the Palestinians deserve, and why.

I have asked why those Jews driven out of Arab nations in 1948 don't deserve whatever you are saying the Palestinians should get.

And I see that you make no attempt to answer polite questions.




But I see you got your signature down...

"Vicious little racist pratt
Jim Carroll"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 01:35 PM

JEWS HAVE NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH THIS AND TO CLAIM THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ISRAEL IS 'JEWISH" IS ABOUT AS ANTISEMITIC AS IT GETS - YOUR CHOICE OF WORDS
Some of the harshest critics of the Israeli regime are Jewish groups like 'Jews For Justice'.
It was former heads of Mossad, the Israeli Secret Service who equated Israeli policy with the Nazis.
By describing Sabra/Shatila, and every other recognised squalidly appalling war crime as "Jewish" you are laying the blame on the Jewish people as a whole.
By skulking behind the six million dead and refusing to respond to anything relevant to what is happening today is to piss on their corpses.
Not only a Zionist, but an anti-Semite one - didn't believe it was possible.
"You mean by the Arab League attack on Israel???"
No - I meant the massacres, including the ones described by Jewish researcher Benny Morris, of thousands of civilians in order to clear the way for Israeli settlements
You have chosen to ignore the present peace settlement and in doing so you have even put the Israelis in disrepute by proving that their participation is a sham
Vicious little racist pratt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:12 PM

""For all the racists and Nazis here,"
Please stop talking to yourself"


I WAS TALKING TO GREGF AND YOU, AS WELL SOME OTHERS. You are happy to accuse others, yet fail to see that you are a genocidal bigot.





"the Jewish homeland as defined by the treaty ending WW 1, for 1921 and 1924"
Which was superseded by the treaty that brought Israel into being, agred by all partities and was drawn up in recognisation of the fact that the Arabs had occupied that part of the Middle East for as long as had the Jews."

Superseded? How? The only thing I can imagine you refer to is that Britain gave up the Mandate. NO TREATY WAS EVER signed among the parties. The ARABS got 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory- how much more should they have?????


"The ink on that treaty wasn't dry when it was breached by Israeli terrorism and human rights abuses."

You mean by the Arab League attack on Israel???



"The change in the territorial maps have been brought about by internationally recognised illegal Israeli settlements which have been facilitated by over a hundred US vetos in the UN"

Wrong.



"To equate opposition to Israeli policy with " racists and Nazis" and Nazis it to lay the blame for Israeli terrorism on the Jews - your choice, nobody else's. "

No, the terrorism is on the Arabs who have declared it is their purpose to kill all the Jews.



"It is also you has claimed and are continuing to claim that the Palestinians have no legal right to Palestine (despite treaties, UN resolutions, world-wide condemnation)"

NO, they have rights, WHICH YOU AND the other Arab nations have denied them since 1948.
(despite treaties, UN resolutions, world-wide condemnation)


"Put them in gas ovens, drive them into the desert, starve them into submission, cut off their water and electricity supplies, re-settle them on poisonous dumps.... all have a familiar ring
to it."

To you it would- that is your preferred method of "negotiating" with Jews, is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:46 AM

"For all the racists and Nazis here,"
Please stop talking to yourself
"the Jewish homeland as defined by the treaty ending WW 1, for 1921 and 1924"
Which was superseded by the treaty that brought Israel into being, agred by all partities and was drawn up in recognisation of the fact that the Arabs had occupied that part of the Middle East for as long as had the Jews.
The ink on that treaty wasn't dry when it was breached by Israeli terrorism and human rights abuses.
The change in the territorial maps have been brought about by internationally recognised illegal Israeli settlements which have been facilitated by over a hundred US vetos in the UN
To equate opposition to Israeli policy with " racists and Nazis" and Nazis it to lay the blame for Israeli terrorism on the Jews - your choice, nobody else's.
It is also you has claimed and are continuing to claim that the Palestinians have no legal right to Palestine (despite treaties, UN resolutions, world-wide condemnation)
Put them in gas ovens, drive them into the desert, starve them into submission, cut off their water and electricity supplies, re-settle them on poisonous dumps.... all have a familiar ring to it.
You have no need to emerge from the closet - you were never in there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:34 AM

And now they are attempting to run weaponry into the West Bank from Syria and Iran through Jordan - getting ready for peace I presume - SSDD.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

And btw, what was the area of PALESTINE in 1950? 1967? How about ZERO- The Arab nations would not allow a Palestine, in order to keep a ready source of cannon fodder and terrorists available.

and NOW- Gaza has already been given to them ( and they use it to attack Israel), and if they want peace, the Palestinians will get some portion of the West Bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:07 AM

For all the racists and Nazis here,

Why don't you look at the maps of Mandate Palestine, the Jewish homeland as defined by the treaty ending WW 1, for 1921 and 1924- note the 77% DECREASE to create the Arab Homeland where Jews were prohibited from settling?

Note the GREATER number of Jews driven from Arab nations than the fraction of Arab Palestinians that fled from Israel in 1948?

No answers from you on that- just ad hominem attacks.You really do represent the "Liberal" viewpoint .



And it is Jim who wants the genocide and ovens- I would be happy to have them go to the Arab nations that SHOULD have accepted them in 1948 but chose to make their lives hell .


But then, those here have never cared about the Palestinians- just about killing Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 10:33 AM

"you have lost the debate gentlemen."
Boo Boo
You have refused to respond to the basic subject - Israeli settlements and the peace talks
Aoart from 2 ultra right sites you have provided no evidence for your claims
You have dismissed all evidence contrary to your own as 'leftie' and haven't even attempted to respond to it.
Yup; you're right (really Right) - you've got us beat hands down.
Give Yogi and the Ranger our regards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 09:39 AM

When all you can do is resort to attacking the sources without regard to the content while employing cutesy little nicknames for other posters you have lost the debate gentlemen. It's been fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 09:26 AM

And with one mighty bound he springs from his Zionist closet.
These would be the same Zionists who are demanding that all Palestinians should have their electricity and water cut off and be driven into the desert would they.
It's a self-declared ultra-Zionist site Boo Boo - you really are not very good at this, are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

Hmmm... a self-proclaimed Zionist propaganda site. Must be true, eh BooBad?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:27 AM

The Incredible Shrinking Jewish National Home

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:18 AM

"I'd like to see how BB and Bobad can spin those four maps into Israel giving up land."
They can't and they won't even try - like all the other facts here, they will ignore them and continue to peddle their 'ethnic cleansing' line.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:08 AM

Obviously the title of this thread needs adjusting.

All's normal for Israel/No hope for Palestine.

Just one look at the maps shows the planned end game.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:05 AM

""What was the land area of Israel in 1948, 1967 and now, with sources please."
The then-and-now comparisons can be made here Don - pretty spectacular.
http://www.juancole.com/2013/08/announcement-squatter-palestine.html""

I'd like to see how BB and Bobad can spin those four maps into Israel giving up land.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:12 AM

Or here
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
or here
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html
Or even further back, here
http://www.peterloud.co.uk/palestine/
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:00 AM

"What was the land area of Israel in 1948, 1967 and now, with sources please."
The then-and-now comparisons can be made here Don - pretty spectacular.
http://www.juancole.com/2013/08/announcement-squatter-palestine.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:50 PM

""Israel, since 1948, has been willing to trade land for peace. They have given up land, but not had peace.""

Go on, amaze us!

What was the land area of Israel in 1948, 1967 and now, with sources please.

Let's see what land they have given up. My suspicion is that it will be a minor proportion of what they had previously grabbed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:37 PM

""Hey, Bobad,

You are making the mistake that Jews are humans. The ones here pushing for the Palestinians have already stated that Jews have no rights, and should be removed by whatever means that are available.""

Another pack of lies you devious prat.

The only people here even mentioning the Jews are you and Bobad.

Nothing being said by anybody else amounts to antisemitism. The only antisemitic comments are your own.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:19 PM

"Israel, since 1948, has been willing to trade land for peace. They have given up land, but not had peace."
No they haven't - the British left to the sound of Israeli 'Freedom Fighters' hurling hand grenades into occupied houses to clear the ground for Jewish settlers - documented fact - it's in the book
They haven't stopped since
You refuse to even refer to what rights Palestinians have to what land
which means none - so it's the gast chambers then.
You refuse to refer to the present peace talks and the influence Israli settlement has already had on the outcome - which means you agree with us that it is no more than a PR exercise by the Israelis who have no interest in peace
You are an inept armchair Zionist fanatic not even capable of putting forward a half decent argument.
You are to the Israeli regime what the skinhead braindeads are to the BNP
Couldn't agree less that we should ignore this pair of yobs Steve - they are making our case far more effectively than we possibly could - leave them at it
Jim Carroll

The 1948 Massacre at Deir Yassin Revisited
by Matthew Hogan
Between 9 and 11 April 1948, over 100 Arab townspeople were massacred by Jewish paramilitaries in Deir Yassin near Jerusalem in the British Mandate of Palestine. The incident was pivotal in modern Middle East history, becoming in one Israeli historian's words, "a landmark in the chronicles of the Israel-Arab conflict and a symbol of the horrors of war."(1) It greatly stimulated Palestinian Arab refugee flight and appears to have been critical in the final decision of the Arab states to intervene directly in Palestine in 1948 to thwart the creation of the state of Israel. The Deir Yassin incident, therefore, is intimately connected to the two main issues that have defined the Arab-Israeli conflict: the armed hostility to Israel by the Arab states and the enduring Palestinian refugee issue.
http://www.deiryassin.org/mh2001.html

Around 107 villagers were killed during and after the battle for the village, including women and children—some were shot, while others died when hand grenades were thrown into their homes.[2] Several villagers were taken prisoner and may have been killed after being paraded through the streets of West Jerusalem, though accounts vary.[3] Four of the attackers died, with around 35 injured.[4] The killings were condemned by the leadership of the Haganah—the Jewish community's main paramilitary force—and by the area's two chief rabbis. The Jewish Agency for Israel sent Jordan's King Abdullah a letter of apology, which he rebuffed.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:02 PM

I dunno- I kind of think they're self-feeding, self-perpetuting, Steve.
But you suggestion has merit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 06:45 PM

I should like to suggest that we no longer feed the bobad/bruce/insanity trolls here. Not a lot of point. Men of reason, let's let the bugger die!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 06:03 PM

Here comes Carroll with his Nazi allusions again

But it's OK for BullshitBruce to play the Nazi card, right BooBad?

Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 04:36 PM

These are two of the prisoners Israel is releasing as their part of the deal to resume peace talks:

South Africa has Nelson Mandela, Poland has John Paul II, and Burma has Aung San Suu Kyi: Though the measure isn't exact, one way to judge a nation is by looking at its heroes. So what does it say about a prospective state of Palestine that among its heroes is Salah Ibrahim Ahmad Mugdad?

Mugdad is among 104 prisoners Israel intends to release as part of a deal orchestrated by Secretary of State John Kerry to resume peace talks with the Palestinians. In 1993, Mugdad killed hotel security guard Israel Tenenbaum "by beating him in the head with a steel rod," according to the Times of Israel. Tenenbaum was 72 at the time of his murder.

Also being released is Salameh Abdallah Musleh, imprisoned for the murder of convenience-store owner Reuven David. "Abdallah, together with an accomplice, entered David's convenience store on May 20, 1991, bound David's arms and legs and beat him to death, before locking the store and fleeing the scene," the Times reports.

Ditto for other Palestinian prisoners. Every society has its criminals, psychotics and killers, and Israel is no exception. But it says something about the current Palestinian leadership that it has made the release of killers a condition of peace talks. It also says something about the moral values of too many Palestinians that they should treat the returning prisoners not as pariahs but as heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 03:27 PM

"What should happen to those evected - gas ovens maybe?"

Here comes Carroll with his Nazi allusions again - he just can't contain himself - it's like Peter Sellers' arm in Dr. Strangelove.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM

Jim,

Israel, since 1948, has been willing to trade land for peace. They have given up land, but not had peace.

What do YOU think the Palestinians should have, and why? I gave my statement that those refugees that left when Israel was formed should have been absorbed by the other Arab nations, as the Jewish refugees from Arab lands were absorbed by Israel.

What right have the Palestinians to Israeli territory?

Does Israel have the right to demand a part of Jordan? If not, why not- THAT was part of the Mandate Palestine that was supposed to become the Jewish Homeland, by the treaty that ended WW 1. It was split off as the ARAB MOSLIM Homeland- so the Palestinians already have a state, of greater area than Israel and the West Bank.

YOU are the one putting people in ovens, not the Israelis. The Arab League declared it was going to destroy all the Jews in Israel, and when Israel defends itself, YOU complain. That indicates your support for genocide, as long as it is "only Jews" that are being killed.

The Palestinians who left Israel, refusing to stay in peace, can settle in some Arab nation- What right do they have for more, unless you give the same rights to those Jews driven out of Arab nations? Shouldn't the LARGER NUMBER of Jewish refugees get at least as much as you are demanding for the Palestinians? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 03:06 PM

In the light of you or your 'crawling mate's' refusal to answer one single salient point, and to establish just what level of Zionist fanatic we are dealing with;
What part of this territory do you believe the Palestinians do have a right to and why?
A silence will be ragarded as "none", in which case what the hell are the Israelis doing at a conference if it is not to accept the total surrender of Palestine into their hands?
What should happen to those evected - gas ovens maybe?
Jim Carr5oll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:40 PM

Back to the usual Greggie boy "Liberal" ad hominem attack.


Too bad reality gives him nothing valid to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM

Back to the usual BullshitBruce horseshit.

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:26 PM

But then, trust a "liberal" to keep two sets of rules, one for wht he agrees with and one for what he doesn't want to respond to.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:24 PM

Hey, Greggie boy,

Didn't you even read the OP?

IT brings up the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:22 PM

You certainly are to laugh at.

But you are the best that "Liberal" Mudcat seems to have.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:18 PM

Obviously GregF is not capable of reasonable discussion.

Reasonable discussion - like pitching the Klan and the Nazis around.

It is to laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:46 PM

Note to all:

GregF has stated in a previous thread that he considers the phrase "Black, and a Democrat" to be the same as "dumb Ni**er".

I hope that you are satisfied with him representing the Palestinian side here.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:41 PM

Obviously GregF is not capable of reasonable discussion.

But then, he is the Voice of "Liberal" Mudcat...

Reason is not expected of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:37 PM

I KNOW!!!!...All Israel has to do is declare all of it's citizens to be homosexual and then the 'so-called left' will rally behind them!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:20 PM

BeardedBullshit, welcome bacK! Hope you had a good few days rest; I'm sure it's exhausting for you to produce the mounds of horseshit you regularly splatter over this forum, and your stinking sewage was sorely missed by one and all, I'm sure.

But what has Herr Himmler's screed got to do with anything? Are you abandoning the Klan for the Nazis?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 12:48 PM

But then, it is nothing new.




"'To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory – Reichsfuehrer S.S. Heinrich Himmler"
2 November 1943

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 12:00 PM

Hey, Bobad,

You are making the mistake that Jews are humans. The ones here pushing for the Palestinians have already stated that Jews have no rights, and should be removed by whatever means that are available. The fact that a Palestinian Homeland WAS formed from
Mandate Palestine, and restricted to Moslim ONLY settlement, on the vast majority of the land that had been designated as a Jewish Homeland by the treaty ending WW 1 seems to be ignored- after all, if the Arabs want ALL the land, they should of course be given it. It is not like Jews are worth being fair to.

(SARCASM)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 11:17 AM

What about the West Bank lands grabbed from the Jews when they were expelled by the Jordanians? Conveniently ignored in this "discussion". Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 11:14 AM

Oh dear - yet another 'land-grabber apologist' busily ignoring the fact that there's a conference taking place at present and the Israeli's are hell bent on disrupting it.
Boo Boo won't - how about you addressing the fact that, if they get their way the conference will collapse leading to yet more bloodshed, Palestinian, Israeli and possibly they rest of us.
Won't hold my breath - you people don't go there, do you?
" like the KKK demanding that Richmond be turned over to them to rebuild the Confederacy. NC"
Why not - seems to have worked fine for the Israelis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 09:59 AM

Why are the pre-1967 borders so sacred? The Arab nations have never accepted them.

From 1948 to 1967, the Jordanian occupied West bank was NOT made into a Palestinian state- Although Jews were driven out and settlements of Moslims were put in ( no complaints about THOSE settlements, I note). No-one has ever said what the Jews driven out of there, and from other Arab lands, should be given. There were 820,000 Jews driven out of Arab nations ( the vast majority), and 640,00 Arab Moslims ( less than the number who stayed in Israel and became citizens) who left Israel.

The Jewish refugees were settled, the majority by Israel. The Palestinian Moslims were held in refugee camps BY THE ARAB NATION, and not allowed to settle, even in the Mandate Palestine Arab homeland of Jordan. Whose fault is that? Why should Israel be responsible for the Arab nations treatment of the Palestinian refugees?

IF the Palestinians "should" be given the West bank and Jerusalam, perhaps the Jews should be given Mecca, and Saudi Arabia.

The last set of borders accepted by the Arab nations were the 1924 division of Mandate Palestine into the Arab Moslim homeland of Trans-Jordan ( 77+% of the Mandate territory)
and the Jewish Homeland of the remainder. Jews were forbidden to settle in the Arab Moslim homeland.

When Jordan occupied the West Bank, from 1948 to 1967, Jews from any nations were prohibited from access to their most holy site, the Wailing Wall. Since 1967, the Arabs have retained access and control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalam, one of their holy sites.There is ZERO chance that the Israelis will give any part of Jerusalam to the Palestinians. Period.

The idea that the Palestinians should be able to get whatever part of Israel that they want is something like the KKK demanding that Richmond be turned over to them to rebuild the Confederacy. NC, sure, but Richmond???

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:58 AM

It's hard to have hope, especially for the future, with this kind of indoctrination going on and funded by the UNRWA no less:

"New video footage appears to show Palestinian children in summer camps run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) being taught that "Jews are the wolf," and that they will one day conquer Israeli cities by force."

"In another scene, a teacher is heard asking the students, "Do you want to return to Jaffa?" They respond enthusiastically, "Yes!" "Haifa?" "Yes!" "Nazareth?" "Yes!"

All these cities are inside modern sovereign Israel."

"....a burka-clad speaker in the report who tells a circle of young campers, "With God's help and our own strength we will wage war. And with education and Jihad we will return to our homes!"

"Her story soon takes a chilling turn. The Palestinians were having a nice barbecue on the beach when a wolf appeared, she recounts. "Who is the wolf?" the teacher asks. "The Jews! Isn't it true that the Jews are the wolf?"

"Who expelled us?" she asks the kids, who listen with rapt attention. "The Jews!" they yell energetically.

"I will defeat the Jews," a camper named Tayma tells the documentary crew. "They are a gang of infidels and Christians. They don't like Allah and do not worship Allah. And they hate us."

One young campers sums up, "The summer camp teaches us that we have to liberate Palestine."

Article

Video

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 05:41 AM

Some consequences of the Israeli settlements programme consequences, for Palestine, for Israel and for the world, as outlined in the Irish Times this morning
The article is accompanied by a cartoon showing Palestinian and Israeli negotiators sitting around a conference table around which two building workers are constructing a new houe. John Kerry is standing by saying "take no notice of them".
Don't suppose Boo Boo will respond to this nay more than he has responded to anything else – maybe 'The Stonegate Institute' has the answer!
Jim Carroll

Senior Palestinian official Yasser Abed Rabbo warned that Israel's determination to press ahead with settlement construction could torpedo the talks.
"Settlement expansion goes against the US administration's pledges and threatens to cause the negotiations' collapse. This settlement expansion is unprec¬edented. It threatens to make talks fail even before they've started," he said.

DELEGITIMISATION CAMPAIGN
Bloomberg columnist Jeffrey Goldberg quoted Mr Kerry warning Mr Netanyahu in recent weeks that if the current peace talks bear no fruit, Israel may soon be facing an interna¬tional delegitimisation cam¬ paign - in his words - "on ster¬oids". The recent decision by the European Union to cut all funds to any Israeli enterprise over the 1967 green line caused shock waves in Israel and was described by minister Tzipi Livni, who will head the Israeli ne¬gotiating team at the peace talks, as a wake-up call.
Mr Netanyahu's biggest fear is that a campaign to isolate and delegitimise Israel would erode Israel's ability to defend itself, particularly if it is forced to act unilaterally to stop Iran acquiring a nuclear bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 04:50 AM

I have always suported the creation of the state of Israel but have been saddened by their Govt policies ever since they invaded Lebanon which added to the instability of that fragile state. There are two "logical" solutions to the 2 state policy, neither of which would be accepted by the interested parties. Either the whole of the West Bank becomes a Palestinian state without any Israeli enclaves and an exchange of population on the scale of the Greek/Turkish 1920s solution, which would probably lead to civil war between Hamas and Fatah. OR Israeli takeover of all the West Bank with any Arabs not prepared to lives within an Israeli state moved to Jordan, which would probably destroy Jordan. The Gaza strip is a basket case and can never be viable and should be part of Israel, giving space for settlers from West Bank.
In reality, I fear that in the long term demographics will destroy Israel. The highest birth rates are among Palestinians and the Ultra Orthodox jews who don't recognise the state but live off its handouts, not working, only studying the Torah and not doing National Service. With fewer jews from the Diaspora choosing to move to Israel and the educated, liberal population having fewer children, their ability to withstand Arab pressures will decline. This might push them into the nuclear solution which is unthinkable.
To encourage/coerce peace negotiations, US should stop subsidising Israel. It was sensible as the state was being established, but no longer, Israel isn't a Third World country needing aid if it gives up its nuclear ambitions.

My 2 shekels.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:08 PM

That as well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 02:06 PM

flexible pragmaitism I think they call it.

Oh, OK - gotcha, Jim. I thought it was adaptive pragmatism, tho.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:48 PM

"Extreme left wing? 'Scuse me? You been listening to Beck and Limbaugh again"
The odd thing it's an organisation that has been used at length by boo Boo and his buddies when they could extract just enough from it to score a point -one of those friends that suddenly becomes an enemy when they don't say the right things in the right way - flexible pragmaitism I think they call it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:06 PM

an extreme left-wing, anti-capitalist and anti-corporate organization, the Center for Media and Democracy.

Extreme left wing? 'Scuse me? You been listening to Beck and Limbaugh again? Or do you just not have a clue what you're talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:02 PM

By the way - if you continue calling me silly names I will have no alternative but to report you to the Jellystone Park Ranger - what would Yogi say?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:57 AM

I have the decency to answer questions when put to me and don't try to avoid them by skulking behind history or using self confessed Islamophobes and Zionist fascists as 'evidence'
I don't suppose you'd like to clarify that last piece of gibberish - thought not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:49 AM

So someone who has seen the terrorist organization from the inside and knows what a sham it is and is brave enough to speak out against it is an "Uncle Tom" and a mouthpiece for the Israeli regime. Only to you and your fellow travelers Carroll.

Oh and by the way you smear my source with this source:

SourceWatch is a propaganda site funded by an extreme left-wing, anti-capitalist and anti-corporate organization, the Center for Media and Democracy. Just like the untrustworthy Wikipedia the content can be written and edited by ordinary web users. Users who all conveniently share an extreme left-wing bias. SourceWatch is frequently cited by those seeking to smear individuals and organizations who do not share their extreme left-wing bias since they cannot find any legitimate criticisms from respected news sources.

Good god, have you no shame, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:35 AM

By the way - he makes no secret of his 'Islamophobia'
You relly should be mre careful in choosing your friends
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:33 AM

"I'm sure Khaled Abu Toameh would be relieved to know that he is an "Islamophobic fascist".
Toameh appears to be an ex Terrorist and is now an Uncle Tom who has changed sides.
As good a journalist as he might be, he is openly a mouthpiece for the Israeli regime and has devoted his career to speaking on their behalf against `his own people including in the official Israeli newspaper, The Jerusalem Post.
The fact that he writes for a self acclaimed Zionist ultra-right fascist rag says all there is to be said for him.
What's your point?
Just a reminder, it is you who have dismissed any criticism of Israel as "dupes, and useful idiots of Hamas and the leftist press"
Enjoy!
Jim Carroll

Khaled Abu Toameh is a Palestinian journalist, living in Jerusalem, who writes for the Jerusalem Post and the Jerusalem Report. Toameh appears as a commentator in Obsession, the anti-Islamic propaganda film. Abu Toameh is part of a group of Palestinians, Muslims or "former terrorists" who now have recanted or have become hostile to their own background/religion. People like Toameh, Walid Shoebat, Brigitte Gabriel, etc., are taken on tour of the United States to malign Palestinians or Muslims.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Khaled_Abu_Toameh

Abu Toameh is a staunch defender of freedom of speech and has criticized the Palestinian Authority for arresting and harassing Palestinian journalists in the West Bank. He said it has become impossible for an independent Arab journalists to work freely in the Palestinian-controlled territories of the West Bank.
In 2009, Toameh declared that "Israel is a wonderful place to live and we are happy to be there. Israel is a free and open country. If I were given the choice, I would rather live in Israel as a second class citizen than as a first class citizen in Cairo, Gaza, Amman or Ramallah."[23] In December 2011 Abu Toameh met in Jerusalem with Georgia State Elected Officials and briefed them on the current developments in the Middle East and the peace process.
In the Durban Review Conference, Toameh criticized Israeli Arab Knesset members for supporting extremism and calling Israel a "state of apartheid" rather than fighting for the rights of Arab citizens of Israel:
And then they come here to tell us that Israel is a state of apartheid? Excuse me. What kind of hypocrisy is this? What then are you doing in the Knesset? If you are living in an apartheid system, why were you allowed, as an Arab, to run in the election? What are you talking about? We do have problems as Arabs with the establishment here. But to come and say that Israel is an apartheid state is a big exaggeration. I am not here to defend Israel, but I think that Knesset members like this gentleman are doing huge damage to the cause of Israeli Arabs. I want to see the Knesset member sitting in the Knesset, in Jerusalem, and fighting for the rights of Arabs over there.[23]
In response, Ali Kazak, former PLO ambassador to Australia, called Toameh a "traitor."[7][24]
Abu Toameh is not only condemned but is often threatened. He says however that more threats are coming from outside the Middle East than from within the Palestinian Authority and that rather uniquely those that threaten him do not not question his reporting but rather want him to shut up.[25]
In an article published in November 2011, Khaled Abu Toameh criticized the current leadership of Israel's Arab citizens for damaging relations between Jews and Arabs inside the Jewish state. Abu Toameh has also written against the mistreatment of Palestinians by Arab governments, which he accused of imposing "apartheid" against Palestinians,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Abu_Toameh

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 07:15 AM

"...a bunch of dedicated Islamophobic fascists"

I'm sure Khaled Abu Toameh would be relieved to know that he is an "Islamophobic fascist".

You don't like being exposed as a dupe of the Palestinian propaganda machine do you Mr. Carroll?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:49 AM

And taking the best land with the best water supplies for themselves. Time-honoured. Iain Smith did it and apartheid South Africa did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:42 AM

""Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said the new construction was approved in areas that Israel expects to retain in any future peace deal.

"There is no way it changes the final map of peace," he said. "It changes nothing.""

Israel shows absolutely no sign of any intent to remove itself from occupation of 62% of what should ultimately be the larger part of the state of Palestine.

The settlement of 2% of that land may be almost irrelevant. The fencing off of 62% and the treatment of those 56,000 Palestinians still remaining in Area C in an obvious attempt to bully them into leaving is the real issue.

Having already compressed 1.7 million Palestinians into the tiny Gaza Strip, Israel is now compressing another 2.1 million into just 38% of what should be their homeland.

Far from the innocent victim of Muslim aggression it claims to be, Israel is actually squeezing the Palestinians into an utterly unsustainable land area which puts them at the mercy of Israel, since they can, at the drop of a hat, be starved into submission.

That is what passes for peaceful intentions in the Israeli government.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 04:56 AM

""According to Reuters, Abbas stated at the time, "In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli – civilian or soldier – on our lands."""

When Abbas talks about some faraway dream of resolution, there are cries of horror from the most vicious premier in Israel's history, but when, in the West Bank under that premier's authority, Israelis pursue a similar ethnic cleansing in reality, that is just natural expansion?

Double standards anyone?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM

"Typical, ignore what Ghazi Hamad said and instead attack the messenger. You dupes are so predictable."
You reject every single piece of evidence put before you as coming from "useful idiots of Hamas and the leftist press" and instead, present us with an article from an openly extremist rabid right-wing self-declared Zionist journal run by a bunch of dedicated Islamophobic fascists and expect us to swallow it wholesale - what are you on Boo Boo?
The article has sweet f.a. to do with the fact that Israel's behaviour in expanding its settlements at the present time will almost certainly, and probably has been designed to wreck the peace talks.
The fact that you will not even discuss these actions, but rather, hide behind irrelevant information that has been invented by people whose job it is to do that sort of thing, is indication that you are fully of aware what the Israelis are doing and why, and don't give a fiddler's fart.   
Come back when you have something sensible to say - or find someone who does.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 08:50 PM

Typical, ignore what Ghazi Hamad said and instead attack the messenger. You dupes are so predictable.

Oh, and the article's author is named Khaled Abu Toameh - must be a Zionist in disguise.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 08:42 PM

Nice one Booboo,
Meet The Gatestone Institute
Jim Carroll

Nina Rosenwald is founder of the Gatestone Institute—a New York-based offshoot of the neoconservative Hudson Institute—and an important funder of a panoply of right-wing "pro-Israel" and anti-Islamic organizations. Dubbed the "Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate" by journalist Max Blumenthal, Rosenwald is an heir to the Sears Roebuck fortune, a co-chair of the board at the equity firm American Securities Management, and vice president of the William Rosenwald Family Fund, which has donated enormous sums to conservative causes. She is the daughter of the late William Rosenwald, a liberal Zionist philanthropist who founded the United Jewish Appeal in the late 1930s.
http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/rosenwald_nina

June 19, 2012 |

In late April, Geert Wilders arrived in New York City to tell his quixotic tale to a rapt American audience. The far-right Dutch Party of Freedom leader—perhaps the world's most prominent anti-Muslim populist—was poised to releaseMarked for Death: Islam's War Against the West and Me, a memoir just out from Regnery, the right-wing US publishing house, in which he recounts his courageous efforts to stop the "Islamicization" of Europe. On his US tour, Wilders proudly portrayed himself as a man on the run—a round-the-clock security detail guarding him against radical Muslims whose violent passions he had supposedly inflamed by his truth-telling—and as a man on the rise: the exodus of his party from the governing coalition had forced new elections in the Netherlands, throwing the country's ossified establishment into chaos.
Upon Wilders's arrival in New York, a little-known think tank called the Gatestone Institute rolled out the red carpet for him. On April 30, before a select crowd that according to Gatestone's website had paid $10,000 a head, he held forth on the persecution he had endured during his recent trial for incitement to hatred and discrimination. "This charade that happened in the Netherlands for the last few years could not have happened in your great country," Wilders said in his speech. Then he cut to the heart of his appeal: "Islam is primarily a dangerous ideology rather than a religion. This is the truth. This violent ideology wants to impose Islamic Sharia law on the whole world, including us—the Kafirs, the non-Muslims…. Islam is the largest threat to freedom which the world is currently facing."
http://www.alternet.org/story/155895/meet_the_sugar_mama_of_anti-muslim_hate

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:46 PM

".... being in thrall to radical Zionist propaganda."

Unlike the useful idiots of Hamas and the leftist press.

Oh look here you have been duped again - must be a Zionist plot - hurry up and organize another flotilla...lol:

"The activists do not care about the Palestinians' suffering as much as they are interested in advancing their anti-Israel agenda. They rarely have anything good to offer the Palestinians."

"Hamas has finally admitted that it is the Egyptians, and not Israel, who have turned the Gaza Strip into a "big prison."

Ghazi Hamad, a senior official with the Hamas-controlled foreign ministry, was quoted this week as saying that the Gaza Strip has been turned into a "big prison as a result of the continued closure of the Rafah border crossing by the Egyptian authorities since June 30."

"Until recently, the charge that the Gaza Strip has been turned into a "big prison" had been made only against Israel, capturing the attention of the mainstream media and human rights organizations around the world.

But now that the charge is being made against Egypt, most international journalists, human rights organizations and even "pro-Palestine" groups, especially at university campuses in the US, Canada and Australia, have chosen to look the other way."

Egypt Blockades Gaza:Where Are the Flotillas?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:20 PM

Correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM

You can convince yourself of anything if you try hard enough.

Actually, one can convince oneself of anything if one DOESN'T try hard enough to establish the actual facts of the situation instead of being in thrall to radical Zionist propaganda.

Similar situation with the NRA nuts in the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:17 AM

The Palestinian Authority supports an Arab League proposal for land swaps between Israel and a future Palestinian state.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 10:56 AM

"was approved in areas that Israel expects to retain in any future peace deal."
They/you would say that - wouldn't they/you - the facts say different.
Maybe we should rename the thread "no hope for Booboo the Israelis have made sure that the present one goes without saying 'Small hope for Israel/Palestine' getting smaller by the day.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 10:53 AM

Ditto...I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 10:41 AM

You can convince yourself of anything if you try hard enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 09:32 AM

"Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said the new construction was approved in areas that Israel expects to retain in any future peace deal.

"There is no way it changes the final map of peace," he said. "It changes nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 05:04 AM

The US knew about the settlement plans before they were announced and quietly accepted them as a sine qua non for the resumption of talks. Accepted a move illegal under international law. Fat chance of progress yet again, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 04:28 AM

Not a great deal of "agreement" here
The link also takes you to the "history" of Israeli aggressive settlement and how it has effevted the size of Palestine from what was agreed in 1948 to what it is now.
Your constant hiding behind carefully selected 'historical facts!!!' and deliberately avoiding the real ones is both dishonest and an indication that you don't even belive your own arguments
Jim Carroll

Israeli Gov't mocks 'Peace Talks' with announcement of 1200 New Squatter homes in Occupied Palestine
POSTED ON 08/12/2013 BY JUAN COLE
The Israeli government of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu announced Sunday that it would take bids on nearly 1200 new housing units on Palestinian territory occupied by Israel.
The news from Tel Aviv further underlines what a charade the John Kerry-pushed "peace talks" are between a powerful Israel occupying some 4 million stateless Palestinians and the officials of the PLO (who lost the 2006 elections to Hamas before the CIA and Mossad made a coup for them in the West Bank). As RT notes, "Today, more than 100 Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank are home to some 560,000 Israelis living among 2.5 million Palestinians." ('Living among' is apparently a euphemism for "stealing land from").
The "peace talks" are supposed to lead to a Palestinian state with sovereignty over Palestinian territory, which is impossible as long as the Israeli squatters chomp away at the very land on which a state would be erected. Netanyahu's spokesman said that the new building is only in parts of Palestinian territory that are not envisaged to return to the Palestinians from Israeli control in any negotiations. But the new building includes venues like East Jerusalem or the West Bank that Palestinians do in fact envisage recovering in any successful peace talks. Netanyahu is simply dictating beforehand what the Palestinians can have, rather as Elysium dictates to the slum-dwellers of earth in the Blomkamp film.
http://www.juancole.com/2013/08/announcement-squatter-palestine.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 03:58 AM

You missed a bit from your posting
"Yet concerns were mounting, especially among Palestinians, that the price is too steep. Sunday's announcement was Israel's third in a week on promoting Jewish settlements on war-won lands the Palestinians want for a state. It fueled Palestinian fears of a new Israeli construction spurt under the cover of U.S.-sponsored negotiations."

"I don't recall any condemnation of military aid to the terrorists on Israel's borders from Iran and Syria hereabout - but it may just be that my memory is faulty."
I don't recall your once addressing or attempting to answer the questions on the effect the announced long-term programme of continued and accelerating settlements (announced last week and certainly not agreed by Palestine), the incursion into Lebanon, and the persistent public and aggressive messages by braindead Israelis such as their Irish Embassy staff ON THE EVE OF THE RE-STARTING OF PEACE TALKS - but that maybe because your politics and your desire to see the situation settled is "faulty", as it is in the case of the Israelis - they are the aggressors and always have been.
Terrorising people, trying to starve them into submission and stealing their homes kills people - on both sides.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 07:17 PM

I don't recall any condemnation of military aid to the terrorists on Israel's borders from Iran and Syria hereabout - but it may just be that my memory is faulty.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:46 PM

No I wouldn't. The role of US in the region is baleful in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:41 PM

" a threat from the USA to withdraw military aid as soon as settlements are announced or as soon as Israel invades neighbouring sovereign states."

Conversely would you support the USA increasing military aid when sovereign Israel is attacked by neighbouring states? Just wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:20 PM

Every time there's a diplomatic move in the offing, Israel announces more settlements. It wasn't just predictable, it was inevitable. The talks are belly up. One thing and one thing only will make Israel get serious: a threat from the USA to withdraw military aid as soon as settlements are announced or as soon as Israel invades neighbouring sovereign states.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:20 PM

Every time there's a diplomatic move in the offing, Israel announces more settlements. It wasn't just predictable, it was inevitable. The talks are belly up. One thing and one thing only will make Israel get serious: a threat from the USA to withdraw military aid as soon as settlements are announced or as soon as Israel invades neighbouring sovereign states.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:32 PM

"JERUSALEM — Israel approved building nearly 1,200 more settlement homes Sunday and agreed to release 26 long-held Palestinian security prisoners – highlighting an apparent settlements-for-prisoners trade-off that got both sides back to peace talks after a five-year freeze."

HuffPo

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:09 PM

Just announced - 1200 new Israeli homes to be built on illegally occupied land two days before the peace talks are due to resume - blessed are the peacemakers!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 01:29 PM

And look at this. Tell me, what in earth could be more wrong than this?

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3557149

It's those damned right wingers. They won't be happy until they kill us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 01:09 PM

Sorry, that was me.

Bobad, Arab countries have not rescued their people. They have not provided them true hospitality that I would view as such . They have 22 countries and much wealth. I want to know what's up with that. It seems the sheiks have abandoned their own people and they are true fascists in the home- where it all begins. If they would be friends with Israel, a door would open. Preventing that? Their own sentiments, aided and abetted by hardcore Israeli right wingers who say that anyone who disagrees with them is Hitler. The problem with hate is that it tends to go full circle. You become the thing you hate and you cannot learn from pain and sufferring- except to hate more.

These right wing Israelis are a scourge to Jews everywhere who wanted Einstein's Israel, who wanted Israel to stand for human rights. The Arabs are not helping. They have earned mistrust with their tactics. As long as they are spoiling for a fight, Israel will give it to them. And God help me, I would just as soon they did. And that's a very hard, very painful thing for me to say. I'm a natural born pacifist. When my ways have gotten me really hurt, I don't change. I chalk it up and remind myself of all the good people I have known.

World peace? Are you kidding me. Bobad, I hate the Pentagon. The very people who profit from war are the ones setting policy. Peddling fear on a regular basis. This latest terror threat? Complete bullshit. A Pentagon reaction to Russia giving asylum to Edward Snowden. To give us the impression we need them. Yeah, like a hole in the head. If their methods worked, Boston would not have happened. If they were interested in anything besides unlimited power, it would have been prevented. What do they want? Never ending war because that's how they make their money. But I digress...

In regard to Israel, There are deeper issues at hand here, namely the treatment of women and children. I could never in good conscience side with anyone against Israel. An end to this patriarchal nonsense is what I value most. I am no cultural relativist.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 11:54 AM

Whoops
The continuing refusal to acknowledge Israel's present actions and the effect they will have on the peace talks only underlines the facts of the matter.
Israel is the aggressor,
She has always been the aggressor, since the setting up of the state.
She will continue to be the aggressor for as long as she adopts an aggressive expansionist policy.
The Arabs did not trust the setting up of the state of Israel in the manner in which it came about; history has proved that this mistrust was justified.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 11:30 AM

http://youtu.be/e-Pv2pdT6Po

         Zombie

Another head hangs lowly,
Child is slowly taken.
And the violence caused such silence,
Who are we mistaken?

But you see, it's not me, it's not my family.
In your head, in your head they are fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are crying...

In your head, in your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie,
Hey, hey, hey. What's in your head,
In your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie?
Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou...

Another mother's breakin',
Heart is taking over.
When the vi'lence causes silence,
We must be mistaken.

It's the same old theme since nineteen-sixteen.
In your head, in your head they're still fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are dying...

In your head, in your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie,
Hey, hey, hey. What's in your head,
In your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie?
Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, oh, oh,
Oh, oh, oh, oh, hey, oh, ya, ya-a...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM

"Destroying Israel is the interest of the entire Arab world, Hizbullah chief Hassan Nasrallah declared on Friday.

AFP reported that the head of the Lebanese terror group made a rare public appearance at a Beirut rally held to mark Iran's Quds Day.

In his speech, Nasrallah thanked "Iran and Syria for all they are doing for Palestine and Jerusalem, and for all they have given to resistance movements (fighting Israel) in Lebanon and Palestine".

Nasrallah called for the end of Israel, saying its elimination "is in the interest not only of the Palestinians but the entire Arab and Muslim world," according to AFP."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM

Just in case you missed this first time around - in full this time.
Further evidence of Israel's 'peaceful' intentions
"The war killed around 1,200 Lebanese. Most of the victims were civilians.
In 2009, Lebanon filed a complaint with the UN, presenting over 7,000 documents pertaining to Israeli violations of the Lebanese territory."
Jim Carroll

LEBANON CRITICAL AS ISRAELI SOLDIERS HURT
MARK WEISS in Jerusalem
Irish Times Thursday *th August 2013

Lebanon says it will file a com¬plaint with the United Nations Security Council after four Is¬raeli soldiers were injured in a mine explosion within Leba¬nese territory.
Lebanese foreign minister Adnan Mansour condemned "Israel's infiltration of Leba¬nese territory" early yesterday morning, describing it as a "bla¬tant violation of Lebanese sov¬ereignty and of UN resolution 1701", which ended the second Lebanese war in 2006.
Israeli security sources con¬firmed that four soldiers had been wounded. Israeli media re¬ported that the troops belonged to an elite unit and that large forces deployed in the area fol¬lowing the blast.
Large explosions
Lebanese residents reported hearing large explosions, after which Israeli flares lit up the border area.
Israeli defence minister Moshe Ya'alon said the injured soldiers were engaged in opera¬tional activity needed to pre¬serve the quiet in the north.
"During the operation, the forces hit an explosive device. We are studying the event to un¬derstand whether this was a new or old device. Obviously we'll learn the lesson that needs to be learned here, but the activ¬ity will continue," he said.
The wounded troops were rushed to western Galilee hospi¬tal in Nahariya where three un¬derwent surgery to remove shrapnel and the fourth was ad¬mitted to intensive care.
A statement by the Lebanese army said the soldiers were in¬jured after penetrating 400 me¬tres across the border.
A Lebanese military official said the soldiers stepped on a landmine after crossing the ceasefire line on foot.
Hizbullah-affiliated media outlets, reported that the explo¬sion occurred in the Lebanese border village of Labbouneh.
Israeli prime minister Biny¬amin Netanyahu said soldiers worked 24 hours a day to pro¬tect the country's borders.
"That's what happened last night," he added. "We'll contin¬ue to act responsibly to protect Israel's borders."
Beefed up forces
Israel's northern border with Lebanon has been quiet since the end of the second Lebanese war in 2006 but the civil war in Syria prompted Israel to beef up forces along the border.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/230537.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 08:04 AM

"Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu complained to US Secretary of State John Kerry about continued Palestinian Authority incitement against Israel, even as a ministerial committee prepared to make good on Israel's pledge to release Palestinian prisoners."

"In his letter to Kerry, Netanyahu complained about statements Abbas made at the end of July to Egyptian journalists.

According to Reuters, Abbas stated at the time, "In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli – civilian or soldier – on our lands."

The prime minister also complained about a Palestinian broadcaster who described the state of Palestine as reaching from Rosh Hanikra to Eilat, when doing a segment about the Barcelona soccer team's visit to the West Bank.

Palestinian children continue to be educated to hate Jews, while Palestinian officials continue to call for their deaths, Netanyahu told Kerry in the letter."

Palestinian incitement undermines peace

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 07:46 AM

And once agai you choose to ignore the open aggression of Israeli behaviour during peace negotiations - no more to be said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 07:36 AM

"If Mahmoud Abbas does not have the power or courage to allow an Israel-based clothing shop to open a branch near his residence in Ramallah, how will he ever be able to make peace with Israel?"

"What Kerry and the U.S. Administration need to understand is that Abbas has failed to prepare his people for the possibility of peace with Israel. Abbas may be conducting peace talks with Israel, but at the same time he is also backing campaigns that promote boycotts and hatred of Israel. It is important to talk peace. But it is even more important to educate people about peace -- something that neither Yasser Arafat nor his successor Abbas has done for the past two decades."

Ramallah vs. the "Peace Process"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:08 AM

Thank you Susan, not seen that before. As Greg pointed out, pity nobody was listening.
Another example for Israel's for Israel's brownnoses to ignore in their support for the Israeli 'fight for peace' in the Middle East from the Atticus Column of the Irish edition of this morning's Sunday Times
Jim Carroll

ISRAELIS DUMP DIPLOMATIC NICETIES WITH "HITLER" JIBE
Some social media etiquette lessons are needed at the Israeli embassy in Dublin, home to perhaps the world's zaniest diplomats. On Tuesday the operator of the embassy's Facebook and Twitter accounts posted that Adolf Hitler would be happy with the United Nations, describing it as a "tool against Israel".
Last Christmas the embassy also quipped that Mary and Jesus would be lynched in modern-day Bethlehem for being Jews, while in another post they shared a moclced-up photograph of Fr Jack with a caption reading: "Feck off Hamas". Has someone been putting something in the Ferrero Rocher?
The ambassador, Boaz Modai, and his wife, Nurit Tinari-Modai, have been in trouble before, notably when a leaked email by Tinari-Modai suggested attacking anti-Israeli activists in the Irish media by exposing secrets about their private lives. The UN/Hitler posts were removed but not before they were noticed by Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper. The left-of-centre daily suggested a solution for the gaffe-prone embassy: removing all its keyboards.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 07:47 PM

Well, sorry Albert- apparently nobody was paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 05:19 PM

That was me up above. And here's another quote from Einstein to Zvi Lurie in January 4, 1955:

"The most important aspect of our [Israel's] policy must be our ever-present, manifest desire to institute complete equality for the Arab citizens living in our midst... The attitude we adopt toward the Arab minority will provide the real test of our moral standards as a people."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 05:07 PM

I just came across a quote from Einstein in a magazine I'm reading. This comes from a speech he gave before the National Labor Committee for Palestine, April 17, 1938, in New York:

"My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure if temporal power... I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain- especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our ranks, which we have already had to fight strongly even without a Jewish state... A return to a nation in the political sense of the word would be equivalent to turning away from the spiritualization of our community that we owe to the genius of our prophets."

You know, they don't call this man a genius for nothing. He's a prophet himself!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 04:27 AM

PS
That should read
"the present regime and their supporters"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:44 AM

"Israel and its people have a rightful place in the Middle East.""
But not all The Middle East" which appears to be the aim of the present regime.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 10:39 AM

Palestinian leaders must halt the hatred

"...the cycle of indoctrination and violence cannot be broken without facing up to its existence, to the need for Western media attention and, above all, to the necessity for the Palestinians' own leadership to halt the hatred and declare clearly in Arabic to Arab audiences that Israel and its people have a rightful place in the Middle East."

The Boston Globe

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:15 PM

It was not just me Don.
Your tales were just not believable.
If you want people to believe such unlikely things, you need to give them something.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 01:52 PM

""You have to stop reading my posts to avoid that very obvious fact that you can not produce proof because it is all bollocks.""

I owe you no answers and no proof to rebut your wild guesses Thicko!

Final word:- GO FUCK YOUSELF!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:43 AM

And of course, Keith YOU don't have to produce any proof whatsoever for any of the bullshit you spout.

Amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:39 AM

Proof Don?
Have you given us a name or a court for you ridiculous story.

The only other thing I said could not be true is that you personally know five people whose cars were damaged or written off in collisions caused by but not involving cyclists.
No-one could believe that.

You have to stop reading my posts to avoid that very obvious fact that you can not produce proof because it is all bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:33 AM

Which news agency gave you that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM

"Let's wait for details Jim."
The Israelis have already held their hands up to this one Keith "for the defence of Israel's borders" is their line - but thanks for your explanation in advance, it was fully anticipated, late in fact!
"Henceforth YOU WILL BE IGNORED!"
Good luck with that one Don!
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that would be like pretending you haven't got a nasty dose of the clap.
I've just made a similar declaration of intent on the Famine thread, but I don't hold out much hope unless I can persuade my GP to immunise me.
Perhaps we should do what they did at Eyam and isolate ourselves so he can't infect anybody else!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:01 AM

to justify the need for that space.

Well, I dunno, Don - "Lebensraum" was an important component of Nazi ideology in Germany, and they never justified it, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:09 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:23 AM

You have accused me of making things up on several occasions, including some for which I have been able to supply proof.

In every case your accusation was a lie.

Of all the posters on this site you are the most biased, the most bigotted, the most xenophobic and the most dishonest.

In future, no post from you will receive a response from me.

To me, you do not exist.""

FFS Get the message. I do not want any communication with you!

Henceforth YOU WILL BE IGNORED!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:24 AM

Let's wait for details Jim.

Don, those bloody immigrants coming here and getting all the best houses, right?

The fact is that after 40+ years, they only represent 13% of the population and occupy 2% of the land.

The whining is all about politics and race.

Population density of West Bank is similar to SE England.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:47 AM

I don't expect we'll get a response to the fact reported this morning that four Israeli soldiers have been injured in an incursion into Lebanese territory - they stood on a land main.
Their illegal incursion was part of a larger one carried ot to "protect Israel's borders"
It seems the hope of any peace treaty is rapidly disappearing into the sunset.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

From the Jewish Daily Forward

For those who constantly repeat the Israeli government propaganda, this is well worth reading, especially as it is from an Israeli publication.

""The number of Palestinians living in Area C may be small, but the area they live in constitutes 62% of the total West Bank and includes its most fertile and resource-rich land. No less significantly, this section of the West Bank encompasses all of Israel's Jewish settlements. And lately, voices on the right that may be part of Israel's next ruling coalition are calling for the outright, unilateral annexation of this West Bank sector.'

Those advocating this move notably include Israel's minister of public diplomacy, Yuli Edelstein, who is a senior member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's ruling Likud Party, and his fellow party member Ze'ev Elkin, a top Likud Knesset member.

The head of Israel's Jewish Home party, which will be the third largest in Israel's recently elected parliament, is also urging that Israel take this step. Like many others, Naftali Bennett, the party chief, is attracted by the prospect of absorbing the lion's share of the West Bank's land and a minimum number of its Palestinian residents.

"There are 350,000 Israelis living in Area C and only 50,000 Arabs," he told Israel's Ynet news website in February 2012. "They will become full-fledged Israeli citizens and according to this plan no one — neither a Jew nor an Arab — would be driven out of his home."

But right now, charge critics, Palestinians are, indeed, being driven out of their homes in Area C as the possibility of Israeli annexation emerges.

A 2011 research report conducted by the European Union noted that in 1967 between 200,000 and 320,000 Palestinians lived in the Jordan Valley, most of which is in Area C. But demolition of Palestinian homes and prevention of new buildings has seen the number drop to 56,000, the report said. In a similar period, it added, the Jewish population in Area C has grown from 1,200 to 310,000.

In many ways, the challenges confronting the residents of this tiny village exemplify the issues at stake.

The IDF order to demolish the Nabi Samwil school's toilet is part of a broader building ban it is enforcing, based on a 1997 designation of the area in which the village sits as a national park. Israel views all of the sites in which Nabi Samwil's Palestinians live as illegal structures.

That designation contrasts with the situation just across the road in the Har Shmuel Jewish settlement, where many new villas are under construction as part of the "natural growth" of the community. In Nabi Samwil, as elsewhere in Palestinian villages of Area C, not only is natural growth not allowed, it is actively stymied, according to international and Israeli critics.

"There is a definite preference for allocating land to settlements while embittering Palestinian lives to the point where they will leave," said Alon Cohen-Lifshitz, who scrutinizes Israeli land and housing plans for Area C for Bimkom, an Israeli non-governmental organization that promotes progressive planning policies. Cohen-Lifshitz terms this a "silent transfer" of Palestinians from Area C.""

Comments? (preferrably more reasoned and logical than "Israel denies it")

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:23 AM

Small correction! Latest figures show 4.2 million Palestinians in total.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:19 AM

In this case Jim. there is another very good reason for the settlers being resented.

They occupy just 2% of the West bank, but require 60% of it to protect themselves being polluted by the presence of the indiginous population they have forcibly excluded.

They need room for their rapidly increasing population to thrive, and they acquire it by enclosing 2 million human beings in just 40% of the West Bank,

To put it another way, based upon that mindset, before the Israeli settlers begin to feel crowded, it'll be standing room only in the Palestinian area.

If there is, according to the Israeli government, room for 2 million Palestians in their area, then there is room for 3 million people in the area occupied by 367,000 Israelis. They'll be needing some fantastic breeding programme to justify the need for that space.

The above is intended to inform those egregious idiots who actually believe the reason for expansion is population growth.

A look at the map will show the area of land occupied by 6 million Israelis, against the area into which 3.7 million Palestians have been compacted.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:36 AM

"it is something else about them that makes them resented."
It is indeed - pure blind bigoted hatred on the part of you and your kind.
It served to provide the Southern States of America with its 'Strange Fruit', why not Britain?
Facts really do get in the way of a good story and are best ignored
Keep it up Keithie - including your rabid anti-immigration campaign, it helps pass an entertaining rainy day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:13 AM

It is a FACT that the settlers are Jews.
Sorry.

The claim that they are illegal is based on Geneva convention.
It is disputed that it applies to this migration because it is not "forced."

Without immigration, room would have to be found for an extra 70 000 people every year anyway.
It is not the number of immigrants that is significant, it is something else about them that makes them resented.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:44 AM

Missed a bit
"Some of us think that immigration enriches a society."
Unless it isn't to Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:38 AM

And once again you choose to ignore the FACTS put in front of you.
Israel is creating settlements on occupied land destined for Jews only - FACT
Many of these settlements are created by evicting ethnic groups who have occupied the land for centuries - FACT
In some cases the ethnic purity of those settlements is protected by law - FACT
Nowhere in the area has it been recorded that Arabs have attempted to prevent Jews from settling anywhere (despite your claims to the contrary - "Why must it be ethnically clean?") - FACT
Whatever the rights and wrongs of these settlements, the Israelis and Palestinians have embarked on peace talks which might, just might arrive at a conclusion where lives can be saved and a sort of coexistence might be arrived at - FACT
Israel has embarked on yet another round of settlements that will almost certainly scupper any chances of these peace attempts having any success, which is a clear indication that they have no interest in a peaceful settlement unless it allows them to continue to expand their territory - FACT
You and your Isriaphile buddies refuse to discuss or even acknowledge any of these FACTS - FACT
You will continue to do so for the foreseeable future as you have no interest whatever in the FACTS of what is happening at the present time.FACT
In addition, you have iced this revolting cake by attempting to equate legal immigrants arriving in Britain with illegal Israeli settlements which have often been achieved by eviction and brute force, are "ethnically pure" motivated and will drive any plans for peace deep into the ground, leading to more innocent deaths - which just about scrapes the bottom of an already all-but-bottomless barrel - FACT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:05 AM

should read 40+ years of immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:03 AM

The annual Palestinian population population growth is greater than the numbers arriving.
After 30+ years of settlements, the immigrants form just 13% of the population.
70% of those immigrants are settled close to the major cities.

Some of us think that immigration enriches a society.
I question the motives of those who want them all to go back where they came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:45 PM

"Settlements are made up of individual families."
Settlements are made for Jews - they are made on occupied land by evicting non-jews, and they often come with specific conditions that no non-Jew should be allow to buy or rent there.
Can we establish from the Brown Noses;
Does the expansion of settlements have no relevance to the present peace negotiations?
If it does, why are the Israelis pursuing a policy of increased expansionism in the middle of peace negotiations?
Can anybody explain why a policy of aggressive expansionism cannot possible have no effect on peace talks?
Given the constant blaming for the trouble in the area on the Palestinians, how does one square the behaviour of the Israelis with "seeking peace"?
Are we to assume that the only 'Peace' the Israelis are interested in is one that will allow them to continue expanding their settlements?
And last but far from least:
Why do you bunch of braindeads (Keith and Boo Boo) continue to refuse to address the present situation when even you pair must realise that to continue to do so is answer enough?
Have a good night D' y'all hear?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:57 PM

since 1967, Israel has pursued a policy of building settlements on the West Bank. These cover about 2% of the area of the West Bank.

Sure, Keith. But you're not counting the no-go zones, are you? And, in the words of Woody, when it comes to desirable land, the Israelis get the oil, the Palestinians get the grease. Happened in apartheid South Africa, happened in Ian Smith's Rhodesia. Exactly the same arguments as yours, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:24 PM

Settlements are made up of individual families.
just like settlers here, they like to live together in communities.

BBC.
"West Bank: Israeli settlements
Since 1967, Israel has pursued a policy of building settlements on the West Bank. These cover about 2% of the area of the West Bank.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/settlements_checkpoints.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM

""It is legitimate for Israel to hold that new border.

It is discriminatory to say that only one ethnic group may live there.
Why not Jews? ""

It should not be ilegal for individuals to settle there and it certainly isn't a case of wanting to ethnically cleanse an existing population.....

HEY! Wait a minute!

It IS a case ot ethnic cleansing, BY THE SETTLERS, of nearly two million of the existing Palestian population, forcing them into only 39% of the West Bank while 367,000 Israelis live in the other 60%, and to keep the Palestinians at bay they buid a wall and defences including an exclusion zone on the Palestinian side enforced by armed soldiers with permission to shoot.

In fact they have better defences aginst the Palestinians than against Jordan, the reason why they claim the right to hold that border.

That's like England in 1940, faced with German aggression, fortifying the Scottish border. Mind you Hadrian got there first.

They also ethnically cleansed vast olive groves which were the only livelihood of the now very cleansed owners.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:22 AM

""The fact remains that the Palestinians living in the West Bank are faring much better under Israel's "occupation" than did the Jews living in the West Bank under the illegal occupation by Jordan.""

500,000 Israeli settlers in West Bank and E. Jerusalem occupy 61 percent of the land area (growing daily), while almost 2 million Palestinians are crammed into the remaining 39 percent.

Those Israelis certainly believe in having plenty of space to stretch, something denied to all Palestinians.

Bobad, given that the settlements are considered to be ilegal by the International Community, what is your justification for invoking irrelevant historical injustices?

Do you believe they justify any actions taken today,......by anybody?

The introduction of twenty new settlements while pretending to seek a peaceful solution, leads the concerned onlooker strongly to suspect that the Palestinians can forget about any hope of concessions, or even status quo,...in fact any hope at all!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:22 AM

So what happened to the lands on which the Jews lived in the West Bank after they were expelled from there by the Jordanians after their illegal occupation in 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM

da-da -da-da - Black hole warning!!
Anwser the point and stop comparing legal Britain immigration with Israeli illegal expansionist lethal terrorism
Answer the "deliberate timing" point - that is what this is about - not peddling British anti-immigration racism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 07:27 AM

Are our settlers "expanding" their country of origin by coming here?
Are you expanding England by settling in Ireland Jim?

It is the fact that they are Jews that the Palestinians object to.
Do deny it again Jim.
It makes you look stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:46 AM

"Why should it be illegal for a Jewish family to settle in West Bank?"
Is it - I thought it was large settlements that were the problem, not individual families?
"Why will they not accept settlers of all races as we do?"
Don't they - do you have any evidence that they don't?
"Why must it be ethnically clean?"
Must it - where is your evidence that it has to be (unlike illegal settlements that are built for Jews and have stated that non-Jews are not welcome and in many cases, not allowed to live in them?
Why do you attempt to make this an issue of discrimination against Jews rather than one of expansionism?
And the most unfathomable (sic) question of them all;
Why won't your mob address the deliberately chosen timing for the expansion of these settlements and the effects that it will inevitably have on the peace talks?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:44 AM

Israel's side of the story.
"◾The provisions of the Geneva Convention regarding forced population transfer to occupied sovereign territory cannot be viewed as prohibiting the voluntary return of individuals to the towns and villages from which they, or their ancestors, had been ousted. Nor does it prohibit the movement of individuals to land which was not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state and which is not subject to private ownership. In this regard, Israeli settlements have been established only after an exhaustive investigation process, under the supervision of the Supreme Court of Israel, designed to ensure that no communities are established on private Arab land.

◾It should be emphasised that the movement of individuals to the territory is entirely voluntary, while the settlements themselves are not intended to displace Arab inhabitants, nor do they do so in practice."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/israeli%20settlements%20and%20international%20law.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:24 AM

Why should it be illegal for a Jewish family to settle in West Bank?
Why will they not accept settlers of all races as we do?
Why must it be ethnically clean?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:43 AM

And by the way - your attempts to compare legal immigration to Britain to the illegal, predatory, racially based (and often involving the eviction of legitimate occupants) settlement policy of the Israelis says all that needs to be said on this matter.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:29 AM

Keith
"Jim, you usually are in favour of welcoming settlers."
I most certainly am where their settlement is both legal and beneficial.
We have long become used to Israel's murderously predatory settlement policy, but the timing of this particular stunt is a clear indication that they have no interest whatever in peace - why should they - they've got superior fire-power and US support (or have they?) - (and probably God) on their side what more could a girl wish for?).
It is a deliberately timed action which will almost certainly guarantee that the negotiations are scuppered and the killing goes on and is a clear definition of intent which has, without a doubt, the full backing of you and your happy band of peacemakers who refuse to even respond to this possibility.
As you and your fellow Israeli regime arse-lickers have studiously avoided the fact that these "illegally identified" on "occupied land" settlements (none of which bear the remotest comparison to legal immigration - unless you happen to be of that particular mindset) have been deliberately accelerated at a time when peace talks are taking place, there seems little point in following you into yet another of your 'Black Holes'.
I'm sure you'll manage to have (yet again)the last word on this without actually addressing the facts of the matter - push on - I'll leave you to it!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:54 AM

Jim, you usually are in favour of welcoming settlers.
As you recently said, "Where will they live, perhaps in houses they have bought from money they earned themselves - maybe from building houses?"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:42 AM

And right on cue......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:22 AM

So Palestinians fared better under Israel than it did under Jordan - jeez - them Jordanians must have been real bad

Not real bad, just not so well administered.
Surveys quoted here support this and there is no movement of people from West Bank in to Jordan.

Jordan chose to attack Israel to seize its sovreign territory.
They invaded across the long and hard to defend land border, but were pushed back to the river.

It is legitimate for Israel to hold that new border.

It is discriminatory to say that only one ethnic group may live there.
Why not Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:00 PM

The Irish Times article says "The international Community considers all of the 121 West Bank Settlements, home to 350,000 Israelis, to be illegal under international law."
The opposition party leader says, The decision to include settlements whose legal status are clouded by doubt, to the map of national properties, is a targeted effort to prevent the peace efforts and will encourage settlers to continue to violate the law".
Wouldn't the first step in defending these actions be to show us how neither is the case?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:26 PM

One wonders why, if Israel is going to make it ten times harder to come to an agreement in order to expand its territory it should go through the motions in the first place
After the last incursion the Zionists demanded that it was time to "cut off electricity and water and drive the Palestinians into the desert".
It would be extremely interesting to see how the human rights courts would react to such a suggestion.
The last time Israel embarked on a major policy of expansion of settlements it was as an act of revenge for Palestine having been partially accepted into the United Nations
So Palestinians fared better under Israel than it did under Jordan - jeez - them Jordanians must have been real bad bastards!!
Tsk, tsk Boo Boo, what would Yogi say?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:14 PM

Well, Bobad,

So Mr. Bard wishes us to pretend that the settlements don't exist? Or is it YOU that wishes us to pretend they dont exist, with Mr. bard as a backup?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:59 AM

Myths and Facts
Mitchell G. Bard

MYTH

"Israel "occupies" the West Bank."

FACT

In politics words matter and, unfortunately, the misuse of words applying to the Arab-Israeli conflict has shaped perceptions to Israel's disadvantage. As in the case of the term "West Bank," the word "occupation" has been hijacked by those who wish to paint Israel in the harshest possible light. It also gives apologists a way to try to explain away terrorism as "resistance to occupation," as if the women and children killed by homicide bombers in buses, pizzerias, and shopping malls were responsible for the plight of the Arabs. Given the negative connotation of an "occupier," it is not surprising that Arab spokespersons use the word or some variation as many times as possible when interviewed by the press. The more accurate description of the territories in Judea and Samaria is "disputed" territories.

In fact, most other disputed territories around the world are not referred to as being occupied by the party that controls them. This is true, for example, of the hotly contested region of Kashmir.

Occupation typically refers to foreign control of an area that was under the previous sovereignty of another state. In the case of the West Bank, there was no legitimate sovereign because the territory had been illegally occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1967. Though the Palestinians never demanded an end to Jordanian occupation and the creation of a Palestinian state, only two countries — Britain and Pakistan — recognized Jordan's action.

It is also important to distinguish the acquisition of territory in a war of conquest as opposed to a war of self-defense. A nation that attacks another and then retains the territory it conquers is an occupier. One that gains territory in the course of defending itself is not in the same category. And this is the situation with Israel, which specifically told King Hussein that if Jordan stayed out of the 1967 war, Israel would not fight against him. Hussein ignored the warning and attacked Israel in 1967. While fending off the assault and driving out the invading Jordanian troops, Israel came to control the West Bank. Had Hussein heeded the warning, the Palestinians of the West Bank would in all likelihood be happily living as Jordanian citizens.

By rejecting Arab demands that Israel be required to withdraw from all the territories won in 1967, the UN Security Council in Resolution 242 acknowledged that Israel was entitled to claim at least part of these lands for new defensible borders.

Since Oslo, the case for tagging Israel as an occupying power has been further weakened by the fact that Israel transferred virtually all civilian authority to the Palestinian Authority. Israel retained the power to control its own external security and that of its citizens, but 98 percent of the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza came under the PA's authority. The extent to which Israel has been forced to maintain a military presence in the territories has been governed by the Palestinians' unwillingness to end violence against Israel. The best way to end the dispute over the territories is for the Palestinians to fulfill their obligations under the Oslo agreements and stop the terror and negotiate a final settlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:25 AM

So what, Bobad - it's still an occupation (no quotes). Are your usual excuses presumed to make it all OK? Or are the Palestinians supposed to be grateful for being subjugated?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:03 AM

S' what - if it were only true - and there is no evidence that this is the case.?
Human rights abuses don't become any less because other people do them.
A war criminal is a war criminal is a war criminal - and so ad infinitum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:36 AM

The fact remains that the Palestinians living in the West Bank are faring much better under Israel's "occupation" than did the Jews living in the West Bank under the illegal occupation by Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:19 AM

The bottom line is that Israel will not make any concessions. We've been here on the end of the hoodwink so many times. They'll talk all right, in full knowledge that pointless talking, for as long as possible, allows life to go nicely on in Israel with less danger of rocket attacks. Even Israel knows that jaw-jaw is better than war-war, even when the jaw-jaw is fraudulent. Israel does not have to make any concessions, or stop building settlements, because whatever they do the US will do nothing except express mild concern. So why should they enter genuine talks? No need. Not until the day the US tells Israel that aggression against neighbours and settlement expansion will result in a withdrawal of military aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM

More settlements? Can't be. Bobad will explain to you thet Israel never does anything wrong or to provoke them hellish Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:29 AM

"Small hope for Israel/Palestine"
And getting smaller by the minute - or should that be 'settlement'?
Jim Carroll

ISRAEL MOVES TO BOOST SETTLEMENTS BEFORE PEACE TALKS
MARK WEISS in Jerusalem

Despite the resumption of peace talks with the Palestini¬ans, Israel has added a num¬ber of outlying West Bank set¬tlements to a list of communi¬ties entitled to special govern¬ment funding.
Ninety settlements were included on the new national priority areas map approved by the government yesterday, entitling the communities to government grants, infrastructure investment, tax breaks and other benefits.
Four dovish ministers ab¬stained in the vote, including environment minister Amir Peretz, who criticised the deci¬sion because it "contradicts this period of efforts to ad¬vance peace".
Among the new settlements eligible for special financial assistance are the! isolated communities of Rehalim, Bruchin and Sansana, considered illegal outposts until the government changed their status to fully fledged settlements.
Illegal settlements
The international community considers all of the 121 West Bank Jewish settlements, home to 350,000 Israelis, ille¬gal under international law.
The future of the settlements will be a core issue- when Israeli and Palestinian negotiators resume peace talks in Israel next week. Israel wants to keep the majority of settlers by annexing the main settlement blocs to Israel and handing over parts of Israeli territory to the Palestinians in a land-swap deal.
The new map includes 600 towns and regions as priority areas. The original aim of the national priority list was to di¬vert funds to poorer communi¬ties, particularly development towns on Israel's periphery. However, the settler lobby has added West Bank Jewish com¬munities to the list, citing "na¬tional security" criteria.
Justice minister Tzipi Livni, who heads Israel's team at the peace talks, abstained in the cabinet vote, saying the nation¬al priority map was intended to advance the national inter¬est, not political interests. "It's inappropriate to take funds in¬tended to tackle socioeconom¬ic gaps and use them to sup¬port outlying settlements in dangerous areas," she said.
Zehava Galon, leader of left-wing opposition party Meretz, called on the Knesset's legal adviser to investigate the government decision.
"The decision to include set¬tlements, whose legal status are clouded by doubt, to the map of national priorities, is a targeted effort to prevent the peace efforts and will encourage the settlers to continue to violate the law..."
Meanwhile, negotiators from both sides confirmed that Israel will release 26 veter¬an Palestinian prisoners next week. The release is the first batch of four, staggered at the request of Israel.
It is believed that the free¬ing of long-term detainees, nearly all arrested before the signing of the Oslo peace ac¬cords 20 years ago, will boost the standing of President Mahmoud Abbas on the Pales¬tinian street.
The Palestinians insist all prisoners should be freed if a comprehensive deal is reached.

Irish Times 5.8.13

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 10:01 AM

The other elephant in the room is the question of settlements...

But...

...if anyone can get this done, it's Kerry...

I'd give it a 30% chance of success but that beats 0%...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM

Hamas is becoming increasingly marginalized. They have lost much of their funding and military arrangements with their allies due to their alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and their support of the uprising in Syria. They will, of course, object to any attempts at a peace agreement with Israel but whether they resort to their usual tactic of trying to scuttle the talks by launching attacks into Israel remains to be seen. Their financial difficulties, internal squabbling and growing isolation leaves them vulnerable to local resentment which has been building for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:32 AM

It is great to see some hope of agreement, and moreover hope that might be practical of achievement.

It would seem that at last common sense has erupted on two sides of the divide.

BUT, and it's a big one,.....that elephant in the corner of the room is yet to be considered.

HAMAS is still the de facto government of Gaza, and at some point their agreement will have to be sought.

They will be a much harder nut to crack, and Abbas cannot realistically promise an end to the violence until they are on board.

Achieving a three cornered agreement is likely to mean greater concessions from Israel than they would be prepared to make.

The most positive part of this development is that it seems to be Israel making the first goodwill move by releasing those Palestinian prisoners without requiring a quid pro quo.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:36 AM

A new round of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians have begun and are scheduled to continue for nine months. This article in the New Republic looks at the five core issues of the conflict: the borders separating Israel and a Palestinian state; the fate of Jewish settlements in the West Bank; security arrangements between the two states; the question of Palestinian refugees displaced in Israel's 1948 War of Independence (and their millions of descendants); and the status of Jerusalem.

Here's What John Kerry's Peace Settlement Will Look Like (Probably)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:55 PM

Like I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:43 PM

""This is a thread about hope - go spread your hate elsewhere.""

If this is a thread about hope, what the hell are YOU doing here.

You just advocate more of the samewith your one sided views.

Real hope will come from those ordinary Israelis who are speaking out against the extremism of their government.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:58 AM

This is a thread about hope - go spread your hate elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:47 AM

""Only a hateful bastard like you can try and use this story to once again demonstrate your hate of Israel and the Jewish people.""

And only a bigoted fool Israeli government apologist would be stupid enough to call me a Jew hater, based on a post in which I specifically separated ordinary Jews from the Zionist government which is ruining what could be a thriving nation.

And only a bigoted Israeli government apologist would consider using the grief of bereaved parents to score political points in a thread about the relationship between that government ant the palestinians it is oppressing.

The cynical lack of sensitivity in that is appalling.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 09:03 AM

There might be more kindness in return were it not for fear of reprisal.
It is not healthy to be seen helping a Jew in many places.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 08:57 AM

Easy, bobad, easy - you're spewing spittle as you type.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 04:29 PM

"I think you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to use the selfless action of grieving parents to justify Israel's abysmal treatment of Palestinians."

Fuck, you never stop with your hateful spite do you.

The thread is entitled small hope - the key word being "hope". Every act of kindness like this from either side is is a sign of hope. In the end peace will come from the citizens on each side deciding that there is more that binds them that keeps them apart. Acts like this is what brings people to better understand each other.

Only a hateful bastard like you can try and use this story to once again demonstrate your hate of Israel and the Jewish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:38 PM

""Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.""

Perhaps she will pass that thought on to the rest of her ministerial colleagues, and perhaps they will see it in the same light in regard to their actions in Gaza and the West Bank.

I don't think I will hold my breath while waiting though!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:32 PM

""Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.

"In my eyes, Noam's parents are noble and an inspiration to us all," German said. At the hardest moment of their life, they made a difficult decision that their son's death would bequeath life to a Palestinian child.

"Their donation is a source of pride and an example of humanity and kindness," the minister said.""

My heart goes out to the parents of that dead child, and I can only marvel at what it cost to decide on organ donation. Likewise I am not surprised that ordinary Israeli citizens should feel kinship with Palestinian parents suffering as they were.

What is not clear is what relevance this has to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel's Government and armed forces, which is more likely to cause the need for transplants than the supply of same.

False equivalence is not a valid argument.

Now, if you had said that there were three possible matches for the organs, two Israelis and one Palestinian, and the Palestinian (being a slightly better match) got the transplant, I would have been very impressed indeed.

I think you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to use the selfless action of grieving parents to justify Israel's abysmal treatment of Palestinians.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM

3-year-old Israeli's kidney saves Palestinian boy

When three-year-old Noam Naor fell out the window and was pronounced clinically dead 10 days ago, his parents decided to donate his organs. One kidney was given to another Israeli child. The other saved the life of a 10-year-old Palestinian.

The operation, carried out Sunday at the Schneider children's ward at Petah Tikva's Beilinson Hospital, was deemed successful.

Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.

"In my eyes, Noam's parents are noble and an inspiration to us all," German said. At the hardest moment of their life, they made a difficult decision that their son's death would bequeath life to a Palestinian child.

"Their donation is a source of pride and an example of humanity and kindness," the minister said.

The Palestinian boy had been treated with dialysis at Jerusalem's Shaare Zedek Medical Center for seven years before the match was found. The Health Ministry's transplant center contacted Noam's parents, and asked them if they'd be willing to donate the kidney to someone who wasn't Israeli — specifically, a Palestinian.

"It doesn't matter who gets the kidneys, so long as fewer children need to undergo dialysis treatments," News1 quoted Noam's father as saying.

The father of the boy who received the donation told the site he had "no words" that could express his feelings, but wanted to thank the donor's family who gave his son "a new life after years of waiting."

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:51 PM

""This might warm some of the cold hearts around here:

Dying 4-year-old girl finds life-savers in land of the enemy
By Paul Goldman, Producer, NBC News""

I don't recall anybody on this thread, or the others, having attacked Israeli doctors.

I DO recall somebody making remarks about Greg "changing the subject, when losing an argument".

Oh yeah! That was YOU Bobad, wasn't it?

As to your previous post about Jew bashing in the USA, we can discuss that, if you really care, in a thread about that topic, since those victims were Americans in the USA.

It is however another sidestep from this thread which is about the government and armed forces of the State of Israel.

What's up, changing the subject because you are losing the argument?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 13 - 01:29 PM

SOUTHERN SHUNEH, Jordan (AP) — Israel's president urged Israeli and Palestinian leaders on Sunday to overcome differences and resume peace negotiations, saying the sides could not afford "to lose this opportunity."

President Shimon Peres issued his call ahead of a gathering of Mideast leaders on the sidelines of a World Economic Forum meeting on the shores of the Dead Sea in Jordan. Sunday's meeting was expected to include a rare face-to-face meeting between Israeli and Palestinian leaders, along with the participation of U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who has devoted much of the past two months to restarting long-stalled peace talks.

"We shouldn't lose the opportunity because it will be replaced by a great disappointment," Peres told reporters in Jordan. "For my experience, I believe it's possible to overcome it. It doesn't require too much time."

Yahoo! News

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:11 PM

This is the saddest part of the article linked to above:

"....the mother's and daughter's journey to safety was a long and dangerous one.

They made their way to Israel through a third country, the name of which has not been made known for security reasons.

The child and her mother are also not being named because of a potentially hostile reaction should they eventually return home.

"It's just too dangerous," said Fatma Sarsour, Arabic translator for Save a Child's Heart.

"At some point, both daughter and mother will go back to Syria and they want to keep this trip a secret," she said.

Her middle-aged mother appeared uncomfortable with media attention because of the perils of being identified and declined to comment."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:47 PM

This might warm some of the cold hearts around here:

Dying 4-year-old girl finds life-savers in land of the enemy
By Paul Goldman, Producer, NBC News

The young girl was dying when she arrived in the land of her country's enemy.

A heart condition had left the 4-year-old Syrian struggling to walk or even talk.

But in Israel – a country still in a state of cease-fire with Syria after the Yom Kippur War four decades ago -- she found her saviors.

Admitted earlier this month to the Wolfson Medical Center, south of Tel Aviv, she underwent life-saving surgery.

The girl is now recuperating on a ward along with children from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Sudan, Romania, China and Israel.

"She would have definitely died if she wouldn't have arrived here," Ilan Cohen, one of the doctors who treated her, said.

Read more

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:06 AM

"the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby'"

Some of your fellow travelers on "the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby': VIDEO: Jew Bashing in USA

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:09 AM

""Israel has stopped attacking Gaza, Sinai and Lebanon.
When will they stop attacking Israel?""

Maybe when Israel stops pushing the Palestinians into a tiny corner of the West Bank and replacing them with Israeli settlers.

Gaza isn't the only issue, however much you would like to deflect attention from the West Bank.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:43 PM

"The role of the religious Christian "wackos" is extremely relevant to this conversation ..."

I think that the role of Islamist "wackos", of which there is a preponderance in Israel's neighbourhood, are more relevant to this conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 02:36 PM

Some Jews are highly critical of Israel
True of any country with freedom of speech, like Israel but excluding most of its neighbours.

The "wackos" have it in their game plan to destroy Jews if they don't convert, once their Jesus returns.
Wackos have wacko plans, but they don't matter because they are wackos.
What is your interest?
Why should we care?


They have hated Israel from day one, so you can not ascribe that to anything Israel has done.

The only way to stop violence is to stop violence. The schoolyard "he did it first" mantra is useless in gaining anyone's respect.
At last something we can agree on.
Israel has stopped attacking Gaza, Sinai and Lebanon.
When will they stop attacking Israel?
Israel has received missiles from all those places in recent weeks.

Each atrocity committed by Israel is met with increasing Islamic fanaticism.
Israel has committed no atrocity, or it would be denounced by countries like Ireland, etc.
In the real world, everyone knows these accusations are shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:05 AM

Remember, Jews are not all Zionists. They haven't all bought into Israeli propaganda.
Some Jews are highly critical of Israel and have a more intimate knowledge of Zionism and what it has become.

The role of the religious Christian "wackos" is extremely relevant to this conversation because the real haters of Israel are supporters of Netanyahu et. al. and their policies. The "wackos" and the military industrial complex are on track to destroying Israel by supporting aggressive Israeli militarism which the world condemns. The "wackos" have it in their game plan to destroy Jews if they don't convert, once their Jesus returns. Meanwhile, the arms merchants get rich.

Islamic fundamentalists are unfortunately on the rise worldwide due to the repressive policies of the U.S. and Israel. The military policies strengthen the reactionary forces of Islam and make it acceptable to people in Afghanstan, Pakistan, Iran, and even Turkey as well as Egypt, which you will remember, burned the Israeli embassy to the ground.

The only way to stop violence is to stop violence. The schoolyard "he did it first" mantra is useless in gaining anyone's respect.

The world is waking up to the fact that Israel could trigger a third world war. Each atrocity committed by Israel is met with increasing Islamic fanaticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:29 AM

Bobad, its obvious that you know bugger-all about the political situation in the US vis-a-vis Israel, or simply choose to ignore reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:18 AM

"the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby'"

Yes, it's true, the Jews control the world and this is how they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:44 AM

Israel's behaviour has drawn condemnation from all over the world, by governments

Only Islamic ones and dictatorships.


"Do any of the 6 accuse Israel of terrorism?"
Yes they ******* do -

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:20 AM

If you'd read all the reviews you claim to have read you'd know that the film isn't about "legality" or "wrong people" - it is six men speaking about what they did, why they did it, and the effect it has had on Israel, The Middle East and the world. If "wrong" comes into it, it is in moral terms, not legal ones (soerly missing from your own input).
There is no commentary to draw legal conclusions - the men speak for themselves.
The main conclusion from the film is that past actions have brutalised the Israeli people and made the Israeli regime comparable to the Nazis - that is what should concern those defending Israel, not whether these actions are "legal".
There was nothing new about dropping bombs on occupied homes to kill suspected terrorists - that has been regular Israeli practice for a long time and was highlighted during the last Gaza incursion - it is a war crime in all but name and the reason it is not officially identified as such is because of the US vetoes which have prevented the world organisations taking action (just as Russia's and China's vetoes have protected Assad's Syria from intervention.
The same vetoes and support by the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby' is also the reason why Israel is not recognised as a terrorist state - not because the UN or Europe supports anything Israel does. Israel's behaviour has drawn condemnation from all over the world, by governments, international organisations and human rights bodies - you and your thicko/sicko buddies have continually referred to these condemnations as lies, Muslim plots, and anti-Semitism.   
You and they are a vicious idiots who twist what everything virtually everybody is saying to promote your mindless viciousness.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:40 AM

"..... and killed the wrong people."
Where on earth did I day that - I said no such thing and neither did the film.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:03 AM

Hamas is categorised as terrorist by EU.
Britain France, Germany and most of rest of EU want Hezbollah categorised terrorist.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/23/us-france-hezbollah-idUSBRE94M07R20130523

Israel is not, so they must all agree with me about Jim's film.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:31 PM

Yes they all do.
Some are critical of the W.Bank settlements.
Fair enough. The settlements are real. They exist.

They do not criticise Israel for committing terrible war crimes and massacring civilians, because that never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:19 PM

As an example of the lies told by our resident anti Arab brigade with respect to international support for Israel the following:-

""Allegations of international law violations

The establishment of Israeli settlements are held to constitute a transfer of Israel's civilian population into the occupied territories and as such are illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention.[91][92][93] This is disputed by other legal experts who argue with this interpretation of the law [94]

In 2000, the editors of the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights Palestine Yearbook of International Law (1998–1999) said "the "transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory" amounts to a war crime. They hold that this is obviously applicable to Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Arab Territories."[95]

In 2004 the International Court of Justice, in an advisory, non-binding[96] opinion, noted that the Security Council had described Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in the occupied territories as a "flagrant violation" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Court also concluded that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law and that all the States parties to the Geneva Convention are under an obligation to ensure compliance by Israel with international law as embodied in the Convention.[87]

In May 2012 the 27 ministers of foreign affairs of the European Union published a report strongly denouncing policies of the State of Israel in the West Bank and finding that settlements in the West Bank are illegal: "settlements remain illegal under international law, irrespective of recent decisions by the government of Israel. The EU reiterates that it will not recognize any changes to the pre-1967 borders including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties."[97] The report by all EU foreign ministers also criticized the Israeli government's failure to dismantle settler outposts illegal even under domestic Israeli law." (My emphasis)

Israel denies that the Israeli settlements are in breach of any international laws.[98] The Israeli Supreme Court has yet to rule decisively on settlement legality under the Geneva Convention.""

You did state earlier in this or in the other thread that Europe supports Israel, did you not?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:10 PM

""Jim states that in the film the six say that Israel acted illegally and killed the wrong people.""

You would deny that nearly 7000 civilians, over 1500 of whom were children, were the wrong people??

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM

We are not talking about drawing conclusions Don.

Jim states that in the film the six say that Israel acted illegally and killed the wrong people.

I am sure that if that was true it would have been reported in all those reviews, so I think he made that up.

I could be wrong.
I often am.
We will see.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM

"There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have to convert or be swept away.

Now let's have a look at what the Qur'an (the holy book of Muslims) has to say about Christians and Jews:

    Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
    Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
    When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
    Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
    Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
    The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
    Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
    The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
    Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
    (22:19)
    Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
    The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
    Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
    Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an (8:12)
    Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)

The Qur'an certainly proclaims that when the time is appropriate, Muslims must use force to convert the unbelievers to Islam. For the non-Muslims, the alternative to this is to pay the humiliating protection money (Jizya tax) or be killed (by beheading, of course). A militarily dominant Islam, without doubt, precludes the peaceful co-existence with the unbelievers if the Muslims have to abide strictly by the unalterable stipulations of the Qur'an.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:10 PM

""I may be wrong about the film but I do not believe I am.
If it says what Jim claims, it would be widely reported.
It is not reported at all.
Could Jim possibly be wrong?""

Being a mere human, Jim could certainly be wrong, but HE has watched the film and drawn a conclusion based on what he saw.

YOU, on the other hand, have ignored the film and made a response based upon the lack of some airy fairy idea of what the reaction of others might be if Jim were right, concluding that, in the absence of such reaction he is not.

Why so reluctant to deal with the real facts, unless I am correct in my assessment of you as a hard wired apologist who simply cannot admit the possibility of being wrong and will refuse any evidence that you are.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 11:19 AM

In Israel, today, there are people of conscience who decry the despotism of their leaders.
And also in Palestine.

There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have
to convert or be swept away.
Wackos.
Nothing to do with our discussion.
There are adamant Muslims who claim Israel must be destroyed and Jews killed because of interpretations of Koranic statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:48 AM

In Israel, today, there are people of conscience who decry the despotism of their leaders.
"Jews only" roads are a side issue. One of the techniques used in propaganda is to sideline major issues with smaller ones to detract from the essential issue. Although Hamas and Israel employ violence toward each other, Israel is the largest offender because it is an occupier and suppressor of Palestine, possessing more weapon technology and includes expansion of their settlements in opposition to the UN and international law.

There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have
to convert or be swept away.

Israeli propaganda is matched by similar forms coming from America. It is engendered by the power brokers in both countries and has no validity in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:45 AM

I have not seen it Don.
Are you suggesting that is a lie?
Why are you so desperate to accuse me of things?
You people are never content to discuss the issues.

I may be wrong about the film but I do not believe I am.
If it says what Jim claims, it would be widely reported.
It is not reported at all.
Could Jim possibly be wrong?
If the film does not say that, he has made it up.

I can't wait to see it myself now.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:26 AM

The weasel's wriggling out of the situation again Jim.

Why do you suppose he hasn't, or claims that he hasn't, watched the film?

He's deathly afraid that he might have to admit that he was wrong, and St Keith just cannot be wrong.

A waste of air and bandwidth.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:34 AM

TO REALLY DO NOT INTEND TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF WHAT WHAT WAS SAID ON THE FILM
Yes I have.
Quotes from 2 reviews and offerred to produce as many more as you want.
None say that the six accuse IDF of illegal actions or hitting the wrong people.
If the six had said that, it would be the main issue.

Now, you produce your evidence Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:28 AM

'Palestinian Only' Buses in Israel: The Big Lies are Back
Of course there are no "Jews only" roads in Israel, just as there are no Jews only buses or even 'Palestinian only' buses in Israel. But if you tell a big lie often enough,....
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/palestinian-only-buses-in-israel-goebbels-big-lies-are-back/2013/03/05/0/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:58 AM

"proof that Israel is a democracy"
And the findings from everywhere else, including groups like Jews for Justice, Unesco, UN Human Rights Watch, Amnesty.... prove that it does not.
Are you saying that the publishing of a report that outlines massive inequalities in Israeli society is proof that there is no inequality in Israeli society? - Hm... I'll have to think about that one!!
"There is no segregation on the buses."
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/israel-needs-a-rosa-parks
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17194265-a-palestinian-rosa-parks-is-needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrag
"They are full citizens with all the rights that go with it."
With full rights to be moved anywhere the Government chooses to move them - in this case, to a toxic rubbish dump.
http://apjp.org/bedouin-land-culture-threaten/
http://apjp.org/2600-bedouins-threatened-with/
TO REALLY DO NOT INTEND TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF WHAT WHAT WAS SAID ON THE FILM
As you just said "That lie was exposed way back."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:44 AM

Every critic of Israeli action denigrated or ignored

That is because they are all shite Don.
That assessment of "The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal" was not mine.
Can you find anyone who thinks otherwise of it?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:30 PM

"And they've achieved so much since 1948, i.e. bugger all."

So that's why 77% of Israeli Arabs say they would rather live in the State of Israel than anywhere else in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:10 PM

""from the survey cited above: "there is much that can and should be done to improve the civic status of Arabs in Israel and the relations between the majority and the minority.""

And they've achieved so much since 1948, i.e. bugger all.

How much longer, one wonders, before the results of their sterling efforts actually become visible?

Lip service to an unwanted ideal never works. Nor does it impress the onlooker.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:35 PM

""Re. Kuala Lumpar thing, the former United Nations Special Rappporteur on the Independence of Judges and Lawyers, Param Cumaraswamy, has suggested the tribunal is a private enterprise with no legal basis and questions its legitimacy.[12] The tribunal does not have a UN mandate or recognition, no power to order arrests or impose sentences, and it is unclear that its verdicts have any but symbolic significance.[13]""

Every critic of Israeli action denigrated or ignored, and all evidence presented by those who have suffered at their hands can be dismissed.

No comment needed on the scumbag promoter of these views.

Balance?............NOT A CHANCE!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 03:10 PM

I remember a garbled film which was totally unclear as to what was happening
It is very clear.
A Hamas man relates that he got a warning call, and he phoned someone who herded civilians onto his roof.
He was standing well clear of the house as they waited!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE

You will continue to ignore the Inequality Report, the book on Shatla/Sabra and every single piece of evidence you claim "does not exist" proving Israel to be a human-rights abusing terrorist state.
No, but the "eye witnesses" often lie.
Deny that Jim?
Fisk and the nurse are more reliable, but they so no evidence of IDF complicity.

I have every confidence that you will never provide the links to your claims about who said what on the film - which confirms that you have lied throughout and have no basis for those claims - prove me wrong.
I am saying that not one review refers to the six saying the wrong people were hit.
Had the six said that, it would be in every one, and the main item.
How many reviews would you like me to quote that do not mention it?
Have you seen one that does?
Be clear, ARE YOU CLAIMING THE SIX SAY THAT ON FILM?

Keith has admitted that he is 'putting the Israeli case because there is nothing else'.
Back to lying and faking quotes again Jim. Shame.

situation with the Bedouins shows these inequalities to be racially based
No. Unlike Egyptian Bedouin, they are full citizens with all the rights that go with it.
- not to mention segregation on the buses,
There is no segregation on the buses.
That lie was exposed way back.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:34 PM

"You are surely not suggesting that the Palestinian Arabs should have no say.....yadda.....yadda.....yadda...."

If you read my post you will see that what I am saying is that the fact that Adalah exists is proof that Israel is a democracy....QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:27 PM

"Adalah is an Arab-Palestinian advocacy organization"
So what?
The report is sponsored by Christian Aid and published by the Konrad Adenauer Institute: as far as I know, has met with no serious challenges to the facts presented - but feel free.
You are surely not suggesting that the Palestinian Arabs should have no say in stating their case regarding the conditions pertaining for them and other ethnic/cultural minorities in Israel - certanily not after Keith has admitted that he is 'putting the Israeli case because there is nothing else'.
Israel is now being described as an apartheid state by Israelis as well as outsiders, and the situation with the Bedouins shows these inequalities to be racially based - not to mention segregation on the buses, persecution of women praying at the Wailing Wall.....
Jim Carroll
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/027/2009/en/e9892ce4-7fba-469b-96b9-c1e1084c620c/mde150272009en.pdf
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2010/02/19/think-tank-tells-israeli-government-to-declare-war-on-peace-groups/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 12:15 PM

"Just how "democratic" Israel is can be found here."

Adalah is an Arab-Palestinian advocacy organization advocating for minority rights in Israel much like similar organizations that exist in other democratic countries such as my own, Canada. As such it is an indicator of a thriving democracy as one would be hard pressed to find such organizations in a fundamentalist theocracy or dictatorship. Most countries could use improvement in their treatment of minorities viz. the plight of aboriginal people in my country and others. Israel acknowledges that it too needs to improve the treatment of it's minority population, from the survey cited above: "there is much that can and should be done to improve the civic status of Arabs in Israel and the relations between the majority and the minority."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 12:05 PM

I remember a garbled film which was totally unclear as to what was happening - not the point anyway.
As Don has pointed out, nobody but yourself has in an any way defended terrorist activity - nobody had defended human rights abuses by Hamas, either by making excuses for them or denying they happened.
One incident by Hamas, if that's what it was, in no way excuses the whole litany of human rights abuses by Israel which have led to condemnation by the UN and by virtually every single human rights group - these have been going on since Britain pulled out of Palestine in the 1940s - at least.
The links you were given cover a whole host of those abuses (including the three on Israeli human shield violations) - you continue to ignore them.
You will continue to ignore the Inequality Report, the book on Shatla/Sabra and every single piece of evidence you claim "does not exist" proving Israel to be a human-rights abusing terrorist state.
I have every confidence that you will never provide the links to your claims about who said what on the film - which confirms that you have lied throughout and have no basis for those claims - prove me wrong.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:51 AM

Earlier this year, Freedom House declared Israel "a free country" and further, said it was "the only free country in all of the Middle East and North Africa."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:45 AM

Jim,
"Hamas fighters use civilians."
That has been accused of happening but not verified

Yes it has.
Just a few posts back I provided a video link showing how IDF telephone warnings of attacks were taken advantage of to rush civilian human shields to the target.
Remember now?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:07 AM

Just how "democratic" Israel is can be found here.
http://adalah.org/upfiles/Christian%20Aid%20Report%
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:55 AM

From the survey cited above:

"Israeli democracy. In relation to Israeli democracy, 44 per cent of Arab respondents say Israel's democracy is at the 'appropriate level', 7.8 per cent say Israel is 'too democratic', 37.2 per cent said it is 'not democratic enough' and only 11 per cent that it is 'not democratic enough by far'. The last answer corresponds to what is routinely said by virtually the entire Arab leadership. In fact, the 'vision documents' of the Arab leadership claim that Israel is not a democracy at all. That is not the opinion of the Arab public."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:47 AM

What does Israel's Arab minority really think?

The Israel Democracy Institute's 'Israeli Democracy Index 2012' – an annual comprehensive survey of the mood of Israeli society, widely considered one of the most authoritative in the field – provides some fascinating data about attitudes among Arab-Israelis regarding Israeli democracy and the state itself. The findings (not significantly different to previous years) certainly reflect a critical attitude towards the Israeli reality and government policies. But they also reflect something else: a huge gap between the responses of Arab-Israelis and the typical discourse of the Arab elite in the country; between opinion at the base and rhetoric amongst the political leadership of this community.

Findings

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:36 AM

Don,
call all the witnesses even Shin Bet officers who knw much more than you about it liars and antisemites.
No, I never have.

You then present the Israeli government's denial as though that were conclusive proof,
Never done that either. I have only ever put their side of the story just for the sake of balance. No reasonable person could object to that.

Jim, I have posted some quotes from reviews already.
It would be easy to Google up some more.
If the six admitted IDF Int. was shite and the wrong people were being hit, that would be the whole story and it would be huge.
Is that what you are claiming the film says Jim?

There are many accusations against Israel by its enemies, but all are denied and the evidence is not there.
Re. Kuala Lumpar thing, the former United Nations Special Rappporteur on the Independence of Judges and Lawyers, Param Cumaraswamy, has suggested the tribunal is a private enterprise with no legal basis and questions its legitimacy.[12] The tribunal does not have a UN mandate or recognition, no power to order arrests or impose sentences, and it is unclear that its verdicts have any but symbolic significance.[13]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 13 - 09:47 AM

What democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 08:25 AM

"Jim,I have read enough about the film so that there will be no surprise revelations for me when I see it."
Simple solution - produce the links to the sources you claim to have read so we know you are not making it up - personally I don't believe you've read anything, but are attempting to junk the information that the film carries - easily proven by linked quotes though.
"They do not criticise the intelligence information, just the use of it."
Prove what - show me the claim I have made and I'll verify it as I have verified everything else.
"Hamas fighters use civilians."
That has been accused of happening but not verified - you have just been given three examples with links of where the Israelis have done just that, using children and whole families in some cases(20 May 13 - 08:06 AM) and have refused to comment on it.
" but the "evidence" for Israeli atrocities is just not there."
Outrageously not true - you've just been given fourteen links to Israeli atrocities (20 May 13 - 03:32 PM) and a very long article from the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission containing vivid accounts of Israeli atrocities.
You are welcome to dispute all these but it is simply lying to claim that evidence "is just not there"
In return - you have not produced any evidence to back up your denials and you consistently refuse to provide links to your claims.
Making such claims makes you a liar, lying about something that is respectively 9 and 11 postings away mkes you an incredibly stupid liar.
Produce links for your claim about the film and explain your lying about there being no evidence of Israeli atrocities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:13 AM

The evidence is there alright! You just ignore it or call all the witnesses even Shin Bet officers who knw much more than you about it liars and antisemites.

You then present the Israeli government's denial as though that were conclusive proof, and expect us to accept trhat you do this in honesty and good faith?

YOU ARE A SICK JOKE!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:01 AM

Don,
Palestinians fire ""murder rockets"" (ignoring the fact that the vast majority of said rockets make craters in fields and frighten cows).
They frighten people and children too.
The ball bearings are not added to frighten cows but to tear through flesh.To murder.

Sandbags are what proper soldiers use for cover.
Hamas fighters use civilians.
That is what should disgust you Don, not me describing it.


WE DO, and YOU DON'T!
Yes we do, but the "evidence" for Israeli atrocities is just not there.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:52 AM

Jim,I have read enough about the film so that there will be no surprise revelations for me when I see it.
They do not criticise the intelligence information, just the use of it.
Can you verify your claim to the contrary?
Whether it is legal to target suspected (that is what they are) terrorists at home is debatable
No it is not. See ICRC statement.
dropping a bomb on the homes of dozens of non-combatant families in order to do so is not
Agree.
IDF do not do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:56 AM

""500 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians from September 29, 2000 to March 31, 2012 in Israel, and another 254 Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.""

Breakdown of deaths 2000 to 2013

Both sides acting in a reprehensible fashion, but these figures (please note that they chose the most conservative figures) do not lend support to the belief that Israel forces pay more than lip service to the minimising of so called ""collateral damage (Keith's "human sandbags").

The number of children killed is particularly reprhensible.

Worth noting the figures for IDF soldiers deceased in 2005.

30 suicide, 14 sickness, 26 accident and just 6 in what are called "terror incidents".

Since 1992, 459 Israeli soldiers have committed suicide.

Bad conscience maybe?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:26 AM

""People who carry out atrocities such as these are war criminals and those who support and justify them are sick bastards.""

All vey well BB, as long as you apply it to both sides!

WE DO, and YOU DON'T!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:18 AM

""Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd murder missile at its people.
It would help if you named the target, but he must have been deeply involved in the missile programme.
As Red Cross states, that makes him a combatant and a legitimate target.

If he surrounds himself with human sandbags, none but he is responsible for the harm he brings to them.""

There, in black and white, is the self exposure of a racist bigot.

Palestinians fire ""murder rockets"" (ignoring the fact that the vast majority of said rockets make craters in fields and frighten cows).

Israelis carry out justified defensive actions which take out a terrorist and a number of ""human sandbags"".

That term for Palestinian civilians (men, women and children) is without doubt the most disgraceful comment I have ever seen on Mudcat (and I've been a membe since the Martin Gibson days).

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:18 AM

"The six never questioned the guilt of those targeted."
You haven't seen the film, you refuse to give us a source for your claims - how the **** do you know what the six questioned?
VERIFY YOUR CLAIMS OR THEY ARE NO MORE THAN INVENTIONS ON YOUR PART
"Israeli Intelligence is renowned for good reason."
Yes, indeed it is - for incursions into other countries to carry out assassinations, for murders of its opponents - there have even been valid claims that they carried out the killings that are being used as an excuse to close the tunnels - they are the security forces of a recognised terrorist state which has been identified as deliberately breaching nearly 100 United Nations regulations.
Whether it is legal to target suspected (that is what they are) terrorists at home is debatable - dropping a bomb on the homes of dozens of non-combatant families in order to do so is not - that is a crime against humanity and a war crime.
Stringsinger:
The overall message that came from the interviews with the security men is that today's Government in Israel has now totally opted for the military solution in Israel.
They have joined up with the ultra-right in order to stay in power, any decision in favour of Palestine taken from outside Israel (eg by the UN) is followed by announcements of more settlements, independent surveys have verified claims that the State is now divided on apartheid lines, the authorities have taken it upon themselves to move whole communities as if they were chess pieces in order to divide the country on racist lines, the incursions have become more and more brutal.....
The claim by the most hard-line of the security men that the behaviour of the Israeli regime is comparable to that of the Nazis, as chilling as that is, is as near to a reality as it gets.
I share your hope - I wish I shared your optimism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:38 PM

The six never questioned the guilt of those targeted.
Israeli Intelligence is renowned for good reason.
That means that it was perfectly legal to target them at home.
They may be right that it did not further the cause of Israel's security, but it was not terrorism.
It was in response to terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:46 PM

Jim, with young writers like Josh Mintz, there may be another glimmer of hope that Israel can correct its military behavior. Uri Avnery is another peace activist that has a real insight
into the politics of the Israeli government. Also, consider Naomi Klein and Norman Finkelstein and hear what they have to say.

When dealing on this issue, the only hope is support the Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanction movement and make Netanyahu and his followers listen hard.

BDS is not an Israel hate group but is sincerely concerned about the road Zionism has traveled
regarding the oppression of Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:32 PM

Anything you can do....
Still waiting for you to substantiate your claim about what the Sin Beth men said Keith
At no time did they show any interest nor comment on the legality of the legality of their actions - their main concern for the devestating damage they had wrought on the State of Israel.
In fairness. if they had any personal misgivings about them they were humanitarian ones.   
Another made up fact methinks.
Jim Carroll
http://www.peterloud.co.uk/palestine/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-war-crimes-against-palestine-witness-testimonies/5312862
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-should-never-forget-its-mideast-atrocities-1.424506
http://www.myiwc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1445
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/5-ways-america-enables-israels-atrocities
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPoJ4pYVlb4dJEp92zohLjucInkLVLyKg
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/09/take-a-look-at-this-list-of-settler-initiated-crimes-against-palestinians-in-the-last-few-weeks.h
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&gmid=23905
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/israeli-war-criminal-list-goes-global/
http://rtsf.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/breaking-silence-on-israeli-war-crimes/
http://nogw.com/israeliatrocities.html
http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=2740
http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis7.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:47 PM

Arabs Fly Nazi Flag near Hevron
Residents of Gush Etzion astounded to see Nazi flag flying near the mosque of Beit Omar.

By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 5/20/2013, 2:20 PM

Hundreds of residents of Gush Etzion, south of Jerusalem, were astounded Monday morning to see an oversized Nazi flag flying next to a mosque in the Arab town of Beit Omar.

The residents notified the IDF.

A resident, Uri Arnon, told the Tazpit News Agency: "I felt we were going back 75 years, losing our hold on the land. The Arabs no longer feel the need to hide their murderous tendencies, announcing out loud that they wish to annihilate us."

An IDF spokesman said that the flag was hung on an electrical line, and that they were waiting to professionals to come and remove it.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168146#.UZpvVb91CS2

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM

You want to flood this site with meaningless out of context claims
"The Shin Bet 6 confirmed that."
Can you substantiate this?
Jim Carroll

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-war-crimes-against-palestine-witness-testimonies/5312862

Israeli War Crimes against Palestine: Witness Testimonies
Hearings of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC)
By Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC)
Global Research, November 25, 2012
Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission
Region: Middle East & North Africa
In-depth Report: CRIMINALIZE WAR, PALESTINE
306    98 46    1853

Global Research Editor's Note

At the height of the bombing of Gaza, legal proceedings directed against the State of Israel involving the initial hearings of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission were launched in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. The decision to launch these proceedings was taken by the Commission in May of 2012.

Pertaining to alleged Israeli war crimes, the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission heard the testimonies of nine complainants.

The following summary of testimonies presented to the Commission provides a historical background on Israeli crimes against humanity extending from the Sabra Shatila Massacres to the 2008-2009 Operation Cast Lead, which resulted in the killings of entire families.

We invite our readers to carefully examine these witness testimonies. They are of crucial importance in an understanding of the current situation in Gaza. Selected excerpts and quotations below. Scroll down for prosecutors' press release :

"Why were the young children killed? [Gaza, January 2009]They are so young and cannot even hold a stone. Like my brother Ahmad. My cousins who were infants were also killed. I have heard that the soldier who kills more – and younger children – moves up higher in ranks."

"What did the children do to deserve to die this way? What did the women do to become widows and what did the old people do to see all this? Nobody is defending us. It is like we are nothing. We do not have a normal happy life like other children. Where is the human right of the child?"

Mahmoud who was only 12-years-old at the time of 2009 attacks, saw his father shot in cold blood by the Israeli soldiers. He told the panel that he and his friends were playing football and mud balls around a fruit tree when they saw F16 planes flying in the area and shooting bombs and missiles.

Displaying maturity beyond his young age, Mahmoud related the terrifying ordeal he and his family underwent during the January 2009 attacks. The soldiers while shooting randomly at the family shot his 4-year-old brother twice in the chest and once in the head and four of his other brothers in their legs and behind the ear.

[Gaza, January 2009] "I went to her and realized that my mother (Rahma Mohammed Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 43) died with half of her face blown away. My father (Talal Hilmy Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 49) and my only daughter (Aza Salah Talal Al-Samony, then aged 2.5) also died, with their face disfigured. A total of 21 of my family members died. More than 50 of them were injured. There was screaming, shouting and crying. Blood was everywhere. I lifted my daughter and she had wounds on her neck and stomach. She was dead. Then, I heard my wife calling my name. I went to her. There were a lot of dead bodies on top of her. Then, I slowly pulled her out. She was injured and she was covered in blood. Three of my sons were badly injured and the other one had difficulties in breathing even now."

In the early hours of the morning [Sabra and Shatila witness testimony], about 16-17 armed soldiers entered her home and shot her husband, brother and cousin dead in front of her and children. She related that militia entered homes and shot at everyone including children and animals.

"Along the way to the stadium, I saw my cousin's daughter who was pregnant lying dead. The murderers had opened her body and taken out her baby and put the baby on her. The child was dead as well. She was lying on the street."

"Along the street there were a lot of dead bodies. Hundreds of bodies were strewn all over. We climbed a hill to the stadium. At the nearest houses I could see bodies of children. Between the houses, which had been half destroyed, there were bodies of men, and also women and children and animals."

On May 11 2012 the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal rendered a historical guilty verdict in The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission v. George Walker Bush et al . The decision to launch a legal war crimes procedure against the State of Israel was taken by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission in the wake of this historic judgment.

Michel Chossudovsky,

Director of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG) and Member of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission,

Kuala Lumpur, November 22, 2012

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

I – KUALA LUMPUR, 20 November 2012 – The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission commenced hearing the testimonies of four of the nine complainants today. The prosecution team had intended to present 11 witnesses at the two-day Commission hearing, but only nine could make it to Kuala Lumpur. Two of the witnesses were unable to make it due to the current Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

The prosecution's first witness was 33-year-old Palestinian Salah Al Sammouni who testified to the 5-panel Commission that 21 members of his family including his father, mother and only infant daughter were killed during a massive Israeli attack in the al-Zaytoun neighbourhood in the South-East of Gaza on 5 January 2009. The remaining 52 injured members of his family and Salah himself (covered in blood and shrapnel) amid firing bullets managed to make their way out of the neighbourhood and found civilians who were kind enough to drive them to the hospital.

He testified that the Israeli military forces, who had bombed their house three times, had denied entry to the Red Cross and hospital ambulances into neighbourhood to tend to the wounded. The ambulances only managed to make their way into his neighbourhood three days after the attack. During the attacks, a sharp metal piece had pierced his forehead and until today the doctors are unable to remove that metal piece.

Here an excerpt of his testimony –

"A short while after the explosion, I heard a very loud explosion about 2 or 3 times. There was dust all over the house. I could not see anything. Later, I saw one missile come through the roof; another from the window and the third one, I do not from where. I then looked around and I saw my mother. I went to her and realized that my mother (Rahma Mohammed Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 43) died with half of her face blown away. My father (Talal Hilmy Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 49) and my only daughter (Aza Salah Talal Al-Samony, then aged 2.5) also died, with their face disfigured. A total of 21 of my family members died. More than 50 of them were injured. There was screaming, shouting and crying. Blood was everywhere. I lifted my daughter and she had wounds on her neck and stomach. She was dead. Then, I heard my wife calling my name. I went to her. There were a lot of dead bodies on top of her. Then, I slowly pulled her out. She was injured and she was covered in blood. Three of my sons were badly injured and the other one had difficulties in breathing even now."

Salah's 15-year-old cousin, Mahmoud Al Sammouni, one of the few survivors of the same attack on that fateful day, also gave his statement at the hearing. However, the young teen could only give part of his testimony to the panel as he had received word that more of his family members were killed in the current conflict in the last few days. He will continue to give his testimony on Wednesday.

Mahmoud who was only 12-years-old at the time of 2009 attacks, saw his father shot in cold blood by the Israeli soldiers. He told the panel that he and his friends were playing football and mud balls around a fruit tree when they saw F16 planes flying in the area and shooting bombs and missiles. He related that there were also many soldiers on the grounds shooting at the walls of homes. He also saw parachutists coming down and landing on the highest buildings in the area and anyone who went out of their homes were shot dead.

Displaying maturity beyond his young age, Mahmoud related the terrifying ordeal he and his family underwent during the January 2009 attacks. The soldiers while shooting randomly at the family shot his 4-year-old brother twice in the chest and once in the head and four of his other brothers in their legs and behind the ear.

He related that they walked barefooted to seek help at the Al Shifa Hospital. "We went to the main road. Along the way we saw a lot of blood on the street, spent bullet shells, shoes. Iron and metal pieces were all across the street so that no one could pass. The soldiers were shooting randomly and people were scared. As we walked along the road, we saw a tank at the side of the road. It was facing the other way. When the soldiers saw us, the tank was turned in our direction and they shot right above our heads."

The prosecution's third witness was 22-year-old Nabil Al-Issawi from Bethlehem, West Bank. The 22-year-old former student of the Ahliya University in Bethlehem was part of a peaceful student demonstration near the Azah Refugee Camp when he was shot in the stomach by an Israeli sniper with a Dum Dum bullet (a bullet which expand on impact). As he lay bleeding on the street, the Israeli soldiers refused to give him immediate aid instead took pictures of him and made fun of him.

The use of Dum Dum bullets during a military occupation is a war crime and Nabil confirmed that the usage of Dum Dum bullets were a norm in the Palestine- Isreali conflict.

He was informed by the doctors that the Dum Dum bullet once penetrated in his body had broken into 3 pieces going into 3 different directions: 2 went out of his body through the back and his rectum while the third stayed inside his bladder near the lower spine. He was hospitalised for almost 6 1/2 months and underwent four operations.

"As a result I missed my last semester in the school (namely, from January to Jun 2008). This affected my academic performance, and I scored poorly in the CGPA (Cumulative Grade Point Average). As a result, I was precluded from pursuing the university course of my choice, namely law," said Nabil who is currently pursing business studies.

"The course of my life has been altered dramatically. As of now, I have an abdominal scar for life and discomfort in sitting upright. I cannot swim competitively as I used to. Apart from this, my family members and I have been prohibited from going to Israel. Further, whenever I go through the Israeli military checkpoints, I am always harassed. I have been traumatised by the incident. Whenever I am about to go through numerous military checkpoints in West Bank, I am in the constant state of anxiety and fear," said Nabil who also informed the panel that he and his family is blacklisted from travelling to the nearby Jerusalem since he was shot.

He demands freedom in his country, stressing that it is the basic right of human beings not to be harassed by forces that have been placed there illegally.

The fourth witness who appeared before the Commission was 42-year-old Jawwad Musleh from Beit Sahour, near Bethlehem, West Bank. The tourism program coordinator gave testimony of the repeated incidents of incarceration that he had been subjected to since the age of 15 and gave the Commission a clearer picture of the socio-economic outlook of West Bank.

He testified that he was first arrested in 1985 when he was 15-years-old on the accusation that he was a member of the Palestine Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP).

He said, "I was first taken a place called Elmaskobeya Prison in West Jerusalem for investigation. Later I was taken to Damoun prison located in Haifa and finally I was taken to Ramallah prison in the West Bank."

He told the panel that the Israeli forces had used different kinds of torture on him. He revealed that they especially used mental and psychological torture and wanted him to admit that he was a member of the PFLP. He was held prisoner for 20 months.

He revealed, "The main charge against me was that I was a member of the Palestine Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). They wanted me to admit that I was a member of the PFLP. They tried to make me believe that they knew everything about me. I refused to confess. Then they began to beat me all over using clubs, sticks, even their feet and hands. The worst part was when there was no interrogation. They put me in confinement with my hands tied behind my back and a hood over my head. The hood was extremely smelly. I could barely breathe. I could not move. My hands were cuffed behind either to a chair or a piece of iron welded to a wall. I had no opportunity to go to the bathroom or to eat. When I did ask for water or to go to the bathroom, the soldiers would blackmail me. They asked me to confess, and only then would they give me water or take me to the bathroom. They prevented me from sleeping or eating or drinking."

"In the end I did confess. I was just a kid. There was a court hearing and there was a lawyer representing me. However, from what I know the decision is usually made by the Israeli intelligence."

Since then, he has been arrested a total of 8 times and each time he was tortured when he was incarcerated. During each interrogation, they wanted to know about his activities and his relationship with PFLP. There were various charges against him: rioting, participating in demonstrations, illegal activities, boycotting Israeli goods and inciting others to do the same, that he was security threat and a danger to the state of Israel.

He testified, "In the last 2 detentions in 1989 and 1990, I was arrested for "administrative reasons". This is a tool the Israelis use for people who are suspected of being active in political activities but for which there is no proof. In such detentions, a person is not entitled to a hearing or lawyers to object to or challenge the detention. You are sent straight to prison. You can only object to the period of detention. The period of detention is usually 6 months. Very often the sentence is confirmed for 6 months. Only in rare cases, it may be decreased to 4 or 3 months."

He added, "These kinds of arrests are common. Before the advent of the Palestinian authority in 1994, it occurred more frequently and more people were arrested. Now there are more than 5000 prisoners in Israeli prisons."

The focus of the interrogation was always on his relationship with political parties, and they would also try to find out more about other people, as they wanted to get the names of other people active in the Palestinian cause.

He related, "Twice, I was sent to Qeziot Military Camp located in the Negev desert south of Palestine. It looks exactly like a Nazi concentration camp with watchtowers and fences. It is located in the middle of the desert and completely isolated from the world. There is no radio, television, newspapers or even visits. I had no access to my family or lawyers for 6 months each time. It was very difficult to lawyers to visit us. I only met my lawyer once each time. The situation in this military camp is horrible because I was isolated, and I had very little food, and even what I had was of poor quality.

In Qeziot, we were all housed in tents. These tents were installed on sandy ground. Each section had 10 tents. There were fences all around. In one tent, there would be 20 to 22 persons. It was very crowded. It was always dusty. Dust and sand would get into our food. We didn't have books or anything to read and write. All we got was some food and a small mattress."

"I was also held 3 times at the Dahariyeh Military Camp located south of Hebron That is also a very horrible place. The rooms were small and very, very crowded. We used to sleep with our legs over each other. There was no space to move. The rooms also very dirty. We were forced to wear prison clothes that were dirty and smelly. There was no access to any bathroom or toilet. The prison guards would bring us a barrel. All of us had to ease ourselves in the barrel openly in the room. When the barrel was full, we were allowed to take it out and empty it and bring it back. Everything used to smell bad, our mattresses and our clothes. There was no natural light. We were not allowed to leave the room. In other prisons, prisoners are allowed 1 or 2 hours in open space. In Dahariyeh, prisoners cannot go out unless going to court or being transferred to other prisons. I was never visited by my family or lawyer."

"We were sometimes beaten by soldiers, although no interrogation was being carried out. They would count us 3 times a day. We would have to stand with our faces towards the wall. If anyone moves or talks, we were beaten hard with clubs. If anyone moved an inch or coughed or sneezed, all would be beaten."

In December 1992 while preparing for participation in a peaceful demonstration on the anniversary of PFLP, he was shot twice in the leg by the Israeli army. It damaged a sciatic nerve in his leg and caused complete impairment and paralysis of his foot.

"Being detained and spending time in prison hardened my resolve to struggle. I became more aware of the cause of the struggle, the history and later I continued being active in the cause. The Israeli forces think that they can kill our soul and patriotism by sending us to prison. However, it is there that our loyalty to our homeland is strengthened."

He added, "More and more Palestinian lands are being taken away. More and more Israeli colonies are being built on lands in the West Bank and Jerusalem. The situation is more complicated now. There are 700,000 Jewish settlers living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem. Jerusalem is being "Judaised" or "Israelised". The Israelis are taking more and more Palestinian lands and building more and more settlements around Jerusalem to make it more and more Jewish and to force Palestinians to leave Jerusalem."

On the subject of the Wall, he testifies, "When it came to building the apartheid wall, the Israelis said it is a security barrier. However, it is actually a strategy to confiscate and expropriate more land. It is not built on the border but inside the West Bank, and this has further reduced the landmass of the West Bank. So Jerusalem, which was part of the West Bank, has now been taken away and annexed to Israel by the construction of the wall."

He said, "Life for Palestinians in Jerusalem is very difficult. The strategy is to make Palestinians leave and to replace them with Jews to make a Jewish city. Now about 200,000 Palestinians live in and around East Jerusalem mainly, and this number is getting less and less by the day. Israel says that Jerusalem is its capital."

He further related, "Jerusalem is important for Muslims and Christians. For Muslims, the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque are very sacred places. The sacred places for Christians are the Sepulchre Church the Via Dolorosa. But both Christian and Muslim Palestinians cannot visit these places. Historically, Jerusalem has always been the centre and the heart of Palestine, economically, culturally, historically but now we are not allowed."

He said, "To move from one place to another in the West Bank, we have to pass through check points. At every checkpoint we have to show identification. There are at the moment 730 checkpoints and roadblocks in the West Bank. This excludes 'flying checkpoints', which the Israeli set up at any place at any time."

He related that the Israeli army control the checkpoints, some checkpoints they can pass with no problem, in some they have to submit ID, while others they have to wait for hours as they are very crowded. He revealed that a journey of one hour could take five hours. And when there is a demonstration, the checkpoints are simply shutdown.

On the issue of water supply, he revealed that Palestinians suffer from water shortages as the Israeli authorities control the control of water. "Water is supplied to the Israeli settlers at a cheaper price, and 5 times more in volume, compared to Palestinians. It is our land, but we pay more and get less water. The water supplied to Palestinians is inadequate for our daily use and causes us great hardship and suffering," he said.

He further revealed, "Many farmers depend on olive harvests. Palestine is full of olive trees. Many farmers' lands have been divided by the wall or the farms are located next to Israeli settlements or military camps. Farmers are therefore deprived of access to their lands. In some cases, they are only given permits to go to their lands during harvest in October. But because they are deprived of access throughout the year to fertilise, water and tend to their trees, the harvest is poor. In many instances, settlers have stolen olives from the farms. In other instances, settlers have burned the trees. Most of the Israeli settlements are located in higher land. Sewage water is discharged to the lower lands, where most of the Palestinians reside. This destroys the farms and trees, and damages the environment."

Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal

II – KUALA LUMPUR, 21 November 2012 – The Commission heard testimonies of witnesses continuing with the 15-year-old Mahmoud whose 21 family members were massacred by Israeli armed forces under Operation Cast Lead in 2009 where Israeli armed forces attacked Gaza. They also called five other witnesses to testify.

Today, the teenager told the Commission the ordeal his 10-year-old sister Amal endured during the attacks in 2009. Amal who was buried under dead bodies for four days is now visually impaired, her hearing is affected and she has 15 pieces of shrapnel's in her head that are medically too risky to remove.

Once again the teenager impressed the Commissioners and those who attended the hearing with his maturity and insights into the conflict.

A video animation called Samouni Street, which he was involved in the making off, was shown depicting Mahmoud's life in a peaceful farming community that was destroyed in 2009. It was a moving account of a child.

He asked, "Why were the young children killed? They are so young and cannot even hold a stone. Like my brother Ahmad. My cousins who were infants were also killed. I have heard that the soldier who kills more – and younger children – moves up higher in ranks."

He said, "What did the children do to deserve to die this way? What did the women do to become widows and what did the old people do to see all this? Nobody is defending us. It is like we are nothing. We do not have a normal happy life like other children. Where is the human right of the child?"

Even in the recent attacks, some of his neighbours have been killed. He fears for his family and relatives.

Dr. Walid Elkhatib, another witness, who comes from Bethlehem District, West Bank is a qualified medical doctor, with a Masters in Public Health, and Higher Diploma in Health Management, testified on the effects of Israeli occupation on Palestinians, especially children.

He testified, "From 1988 until 1996, I worked as a general practitioner. I worked at an emergency clinic during the 1st intifada. I saw many patients who were brought in with different kinds of injuries as a result of Israeli violence – people with gun shot wounds, who had been exposed to tear gas and people who were physically abused by Israeli soldiers."

"Today, I am in charge of child health and protection, social health and Palestinian child law and rights," said the 52-year-old doctor who developed hearing problems due to constant exposure to explosions and has himself come close to being killed several times by the Israeli soldiers.

"I looked at particularly Palestinian children health, not only from the physical point of view but how much Israeli occupation has affected Palestinian children health beyond physical health. It is not merely absence of disease and disability. What I perceived as equally important was emotional, social, mental and environmental health, nutrition and behaviour."

He said, "According to a survey conducted in Palestine in 2010 in cooperation with the World Health Organisation, which I personally oversaw, 24% of schoolchildren in Palestine have suicidal tendencies."

He further added, "There is also increased incidents of disability among Palestinians. Among 20% of injured people have become disabled during the 2nd uprising (Intifada). The most recent report from Palestinian Ministry of Health and Ministry of Social Affairs (2011) showed that 7% of Palestinian children are disabled, some because of the intifada. Generally the number is 1-2% higher in Palestine because of the violence."

He said, "From 2001-2011, there were 2282 cases of disability (93.9% male, 6.1% female). Most of the men were involved in the intifada. 65.6% of them suffered disability as a result of live ammunition. Others were affected by shrapnel, rubber bullet, explosions."

"As a result of the greater number of disabilities, it means that these persons also have less opportunities for work and end up in poverty. There is greater pressure on the government to support these persons, by way of provision of social services, health services, education etc."

"Poverty is rife in the West Bank and Gaza. It increased from an average of 20% prior to the intifada to up to 51% during the intifada. Conditions of poverty also mean poor nutrition. We found that during the Intifada, children's growth was stunted because they did not have enough protein. There are many cases of children with low weight. During the 2nd intifada, the rate of children with low weight (less than 5 years old) increased from 2.5% to 3.2%, the rate of low height increased from 7.5% to 7.9%, and wasting (severe loss of weight) increased from 1.4% to 1.7%."

"According to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), there was a 40% increase of prematurity and miscarriages in pregnant women during the 2nd intifada. Israeli soldiers have also violated international law by attacking hospitals and ambulances with shelling and shooting on the excuse that wanted people or terrorists are in the hospital. Currently 53% of the Palestinian population is below 18 years old."

He said, "Israeli forces attack hospitals and ambulances on the pretext that there are Palestinian fighters hiding there. Which is not true. I have never seen such a situation. It is my opinion that the Israeli forces allege such incidents but do so to merely justify their inhuman actions of attacking hospitals."

It is a slow and certain destruction of a society mentally, physically and socially.

He said, "Over the years, the situation in the West Bank and Gaza has become worse. The Israeli authorities have increased in strength. We can only estimate that it will get worse in the future. The Palestinians face a lot of challenges. We are being threatened all the time by the US and Israel – they threaten to cease the transfer of taxes, to strengthen the checkpoints, to stop aid, to completely stop entry to Jerusalem."

He continued, "Before the 2nd intifada, I believed that Israel was looking for peace with Palestinians. But now I do not believe it. Israel does not believe Palestinian territory belongs to Palestinians. They believe that it is historically Israeli and they are taking it back. They threaten to increase settlements in Palestinian territories if Palestine continues to try and gain recognition as a state from the United Nations (without membership). Israeli actions amount to the extermination of a whole state. Israel believes that eventually Palestinians will leave their lands beyond the walls. Israeli strategy is to deprive the Palestinians of their basic needs to make them leave. The Palestinians are badly in need of support services Otherwise they will have no choice but to leave."

The prosecution subsequent witness was 54-years-old Chahira Abouardini, a mother of three who is a Palestinian refugee (political refugee) living in Camp Shatila, Beirut. She told the Commission about the events that took place at Camp Shatila, Beirut in the month of September 1982, in the now infamous Sabra & Shatila massacre.

She testified, "On 14 September 1982, the Lebanese President Bachir Gemayel was assassinated. After that incident, there were a lot of aircraft flying around Beirut. My husband told me that the situation may get worse, and to prepare the children so that we could leave. On 16 September we went to my father's brick house on Sabra Street. There were other family members as well – my father, my sister (17 years old), my brother (24 years old) and his pregnant wife and 2 children, and my cousin and his wife and 2 children."

Chahira who broke down while giving testimony said, "In the evening beginning from about 5pm, flares were thrown to light up the area. This went on throughout the night. The camp was full of light throughout the night. We did not know what was happening outside. We heard shooting and screaming outside. At about dusk, my sister ran out into the street to see what was happening. She was shot dead by armed militia. When my sister was shot, she shouted for my father. My father came out of the house to see what had happened to my sister. He was also shot and killed. Their bodies were left on the street. Later I found out that those who shot my sister and father were Lebanese Phalangist militia."

In the early hours of the morning, about 16-17 armed soldiers entered her home and shot her husband, brother and cousin dead in front of her and children. She related that militia entered homes and shot at everyone including children and animals.

She said, "Along the way to the stadium, I saw my cousin's daughter who was pregnant lying dead. The murderers had opened her body and taken out her baby and put the baby on her. The child was dead as well. She was lying on the street."

"Along the street there were a lot of dead bodies. Hundreds of bodies were strewn all over. We climbed a hill to the stadium. At the nearest houses I could see bodies of children. Between the houses, which had been half destroyed, there were bodies of men, and also women and children and animals."

The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission hearing on Palestine. The world must do more to help Palestinians. Pic by Chan Wai YewShe testified, "In 36 hours, up to 3500 to 5,000 people from Shatila and Sabra had been massacred, There are also people unaccounted for who had disappeared. The Phalangist militia worked together with the Israelis. They were known to be puppets for Israeli forces. Israelis used them to go into our houses, because these soldiers knew the place, and could speak Lebanese. The Israelis were afraid to go in themselves."

She concluded, "What I want is justice to be done and that those who killed my family members and all the people at Shatila and Sabra to be punished for their crimes."

The prosecution's next witness was Taghreed Nimat from Nablus, West Bank. Due to Taghreed's father's imprisonment for singing nationalistic Palestinian songs, the Israeli forces often targeted her, accusing her for promoting hatred against the Israeli government. In 2004, the Israeli soldiers attacked the Dr Sayed Kamal Mental Hospital in Bethlehem where she was staying and working as a psychologist. The 47-year-old Palestinian's experiences during the hospital attack caused her to suffer a breakdown causing her to take ASVL sedatives twice and other medication for five months.

She also related how she was often harassed unnecessarily by the Israeli military soldiers whatever she went through checkpoints. They soldiers would detain her at these checkpoints for one or two hours or several hours before allowing her through or sometimes refusing entry.

The prosecution also called Anne Sunde, a 66-year-old Norwegian who is residing in Belgium. She was working as a volunteer social worker for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in Beirut in the Sabra and Shatila Camps.

She related, "On 4 June 1982, I visited my friend at Fakhani. While we are chatting in the building, which housed the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) offices, we heard loud noises of planes flying over. We rushed to the shelter in the basement of the building. Then we heard bombing nearby our building. It was loud. The building shook and I was expecting to die under it. It was my first experience of direct violence. One becomes aware what life is. The bombing seemed eternity."

She said, "After a few days the PRCS set up a hospital in La Houd School, Hamra. Since nobody among the volunteers wanted to do cleaning (janitor), I volunteered. I did this together with Kurdish refugees."

She said, "Finally I decided to go back to Belgium on 15 September 1982 via Damascus. However, since it was the morning after Bachir Gemayel's (the then President-elect) death, there were no taxis to take me to Damascus. Great nervousness was felt in town. I returned to the PRCS headquarter in Hamra where most of the foreigners were located."

She then proceeded to relate her harrowing experiences of the killings at the Sabra and Shatila Camps. She further related that when she went to the Shatila Camp she saw many dead bodies of adults and children, both male and female, in strange positions. I also saw dead animals. The bodies were already decomposing and bloated in the summer heat. The smell, she said, was unbearable and there were flies all over.

She added, "It was a horrible scene and they were digging mass graves to bury the dead."

The prosecution next called the 66-year-old Italian expert witness Paola Manduca, a retired Professor at University of Genoa, Italy who is an expert Geneticist. In 2011, she conducted and coordinated two research projects relating to the impact of weapons on reproductive health arising from the attacks in Gaza, especially to children. She also personally spent about more then a year from December 2010 to April 2012 in Gaza, conducting research in Pediatric and maternity hospitals.

She said, "The outcome of our research points to the degradation of the reproductive health and increase in major structural birth defects, following and correlated to the military attacks and possibly to the input of toxic, carcinogen and teratogen (development interfering) agents delivered by weaponry in the environment and in the wounds of victims, and of their assumption by the inhabitants."

She related, "We showed by analytical chemistry methods that in Gaza teratogen and carcinogen metals are found in wounds, in craters since 2006 attacks and in White Phosphorus ammunitions in 2009 and children hair one year after the 2008/09 attacks."

She said, "Our study of birth defects in 0 to 2 year old children registered in 5 paediatric hospitals in Gaza Strip showed that there is a 1.8 fold higher frequency of birth defects in the first 6 months of year 2010, compared to the same period in 2006."

She testified that there was an increase in birth defects in Gaza starting in 2005-06. "It is our view that such sudden increases in birth defects are usually associated to significant and sudden environmental changes."

She confirmed that the start of the increases is correlated in their timing to the military attacks, after the Israeli armed forces left Gaza, and the first news from medical personnel on "unprecedented" wounds, meaning new kinds of wounds from weapons.

She said, "We found that 66% of Gaza parents with a birth defect child were exposed to bombing or /and White Phosphorus shelling during Operation Cast Lead in 2008/09."

She continued, "Couples with birth defect children reported exposure to White Phosphorus 15 fold more often than couples with normal child."

She added, "Our studies have presented proof of a rise in birth defects in Gaza, increasing after the attacks in 2006 and continuing increase up to 2011. It showed correlation of birth defect occurrence with exposure to White Phosphorus shelling. In also showed contamination of the soil by teratogen and carcinogen metals. It showed accumulation of these teratogen and carcinogen metals in children' hair. She also presented proof that teratogen and carcinogen metals are delivered by weapons into the flesh of victims."

She concluded that there is long-term effect on reproductive health associated to metal contamination by exposure to weaponry during war and by war remnants.

KUALA LUMPUR, 21 November 2012 – The Commission heard testimonies of witnesses continuing with the 15-year-old Mahmoud whose 21 family members were massacred by Israeli armed forces under Operation Cast Lead in 2009 where Israeli armed forces attacked Gaza. They also called five other witnesses to testify.

Today, the teenager told the Commission the ordeal his 10-year-old sister Amal endured during the attacks in 2009. Amal who was buried under dead bodies for four days is now visually impaired, her hearing is affected and she has 15 pieces of shrapnel's in her head that are medically too risky to remove.

Once again the teenager impressed the Commissioners and those who attended the hearing with his maturity and insights into the conflict.

A video animation called Samouni Street, which he was involved in the making off, was shown depicting Mahmoud's life in a peaceful farming community that was destroyed in 2009. It was a moving account of a child.

He asked, "Why were the young children killed? They are so young and cannot even hold a stone. Like my brother Ahmad. My cousins who were infants were also killed. I have heard that the soldier who kills more – and younger children – moves up higher in ranks."

He said, "What did the children do to deserve to die this way? What did the women do to become widows and what did the old people do to see all this? Nobody is defending us. It is like we are nothing. We do not have a normal happy life like other children. Where is the human right of the child?"

Even in the recent attacks, some of his neighbours have been killed. He fears for his family and relatives.

Dr. Walid Elkhatib, another witness, who comes from Bethlehem District, West Bank is a qualified medical doctor, with a Masters in Public Health, and Higher Diploma in Health Management, testified on the effects of Israeli occupation on Palestinians, especially children.

He testified, "From 1988 until 1996, I worked as a general practitioner. I worked at an emergency clinic during the 1st intifada. I saw many patients who were brought in with different kinds of injuries as a result of Israeli violence – people with gun shot wounds, who had been exposed to tear gas and people who were physically abused by Israeli soldiers."

"Today, I am in charge of child health and protection, social health and Palestinian child law and rights," said the 52-year-old doctor who developed hearing problems due to constant exposure to explosions and has himself come close to being killed several times by the Israeli soldiers.

"I looked at particularly Palestinian children health, not only from the physical point of view but how much Israeli occupation has affected Palestinian children health beyond physical health. It is not merely absence of disease and disability. What I perceived as equally important was emotional, social, mental and environmental health, nutrition and behaviour."

He said, "According to a survey conducted in Palestine in 2010 in cooperation with the World Health Organisation, which I personally oversaw, 24% of schoolchildren in Palestine have suicidal tendencies."

He further added, "There is also increased incidents of disability among Palestinians. Among 20% of injured people have become disabled during the 2nd uprising (Intifada). The most recent report from Palestinian Ministry of Health and Ministry of Social Affairs (2011) showed that 7% of Palestinian children are disabled, some because of the intifada. Generally the number is 1-2% higher in Palestine because of the violence."

He said, "From 2001-2011, there were 2282 cases of disability (93.9% male, 6.1% female). Most of the men were involved in the intifada. 65.6% of them suffered disability as a result of live ammunition. Others were affected by shrapnel, rubber bullet, explosions."

"As a result of the greater number of disabilities, it means that these persons also have less opportunities for work and end up in poverty. There is greater pressure on the government to support these persons, by way of provision of social services, health services, education etc."

"Poverty is rife in the West Bank and Gaza. It increased from an average of 20% prior to the intifada to up to 51% during the intifada. Conditions of poverty also mean poor nutrition. We found that during the Intifada, children's growth was stunted because they did not have enough protein. There are many cases of children with low weight. During the 2nd intifada, the rate of children with low weight (less than 5 years old) increased from 2.5% to 3.2%, the rate of low height increased from 7.5% to 7.9%, and wasting (severe loss of weight) increased from 1.4% to 1.7%."

"According to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), there was a 40% increase of prematurity and miscarriages in pregnant women during the 2nd intifada. Israeli soldiers have also violated international law by attacking hospitals and ambulances with shelling and shooting on the excuse that wanted people or terrorists are in the hospital. Currently 53% of the Palestinian population is below 18 years old."

He said, "Israeli forces attack hospitals and ambulances on the pretext that there are Palestinian fighters hiding there. Which is not true. I have never seen such a situation. It is my opinion that the Israeli forces allege such incidents but do so to merely justify their inhuman actions of attacking hospitals."

It is a slow and certain destruction of a society mentally, physically and socially.

He said, "Over the years, the situation in the West Bank and Gaza has become worse. The Israeli authorities have increased in strength. We can only estimate that it will get worse in the future. The Palestinians face a lot of challenges. We are being threatened all the time by the US and Israel – they threaten to cease the transfer of taxes, to strengthen the checkpoints, to stop aid, to completely stop entry to Jerusalem."

He continued, "Before the 2nd intifada, I believed that Israel was looking for peace with Palestinians. But now I do not believe it. Israel does not believe Palestinian territory belongs to Palestinians. They believe that it is historically Israeli and they are taking it back. They threaten to increase settlements in Palestinian territories if Palestine continues to try and gain recognition as a state from the United Nations (without membership). Israeli actions amount to the extermination of a whole state. Israel believes that eventually Palestinians will leave their lands beyond the walls. Israeli strategy is to deprive the Palestinians of their basic needs to make them leave. The Palestinians are badly in need of support services Otherwise they will have no choice but to leave."

The prosecution subsequent witness was 54-years-old Chahira Abouardini, a mother of three who is a Palestinian refugee (political refugee) living in Camp Shatila, Beirut. She told the Commission about the events that took place at Camp Shatila, Beirut in the month of September 1982, in the now infamous Sabra & Shatila massacre.

She testified, "On 14 September1982, the Lebanese President Bachir Gemayel was assassinated. After that incident, there were a lot of aircraft flying around Beirut. My husband told me that the situation may get worse, and to prepare the children so that we could leave. On 16 September we went to my father's brick house on Sabra Street. There were other family members as well – my father, my sister (17 years old), my brother (24 years old) and his pregnant wife and 2 children, and my cousin and his wife and 2 children."

Chahira who broke down while giving testimony said, "In the evening beginning from about 5pm, flares were thrown to light up the area. This went on throughout the night. The camp was full of light throughout the night. We did not know what was happening outside. We heard shooting and screaming outside. At about dusk, my sister ran out into the street to see what was happening. She was shot dead by armed militia. When my sister was shot, she shouted for my father. My father came out of the house to see what had happened to my sister. He was also shot and killed. Their bodies were left on the street. Later I found out that those who shot my sister and father were Lebanese Phalangist militia."
In the early hours of the morning, about 16-17 armed soldiers entered her home and shot her husband, brother and cousin dead in front of her and children. She related that militia entered homes and shot at everyone including children and animals.

She said, "Along the way to the stadium, I saw my cousin's daughter who was pregnant lying dead. The murderers had opened her body and taken out her baby and put the baby on her. The child was dead as well. She was lying on the street."

"Along the street there were a lot of dead bodies. Hundreds of bodies were strewn all over. We climbed a hill to the stadium. At the nearest houses I could see bodies of children. Between the houses, which had been half destroyed, there were bodies of men, and also women and children and animals."

She testified, "In 36 hours, up to 3500 to 5,000 people from Shatila and Sabra had been massacred, There are also people unaccounted for who had disappeared. The Phalangist militia worked together with the Israelis. They were known to be puppets for Israeli forces. Israelis used them to go into our houses, because these soldiers knew the place, and could speak Lebanese. The Israelis were afraid to go in themselves."
She concluded, "What I want is justice to be done and that those who killed my family members and all the people at Shatila and Sabra to be punished for their crimes."

The prosecution's next witness was Taghreed Nimat from Nablus, West Bank. Due to Taghreed's father's imprisonment for singing nationalistic Palestinian songs, the Israeli forces often targeted her, accusing her for promoting hatred against the Israeli government. In 2004, the Israeli soldiers attacked the Dr Sayed Kamal Mental Hospital in Bethlehem where she was staying and working as a psychologist. The 47-year-old Palestinian's experiences during the hospital attack caused her to suffer a breakdown causing her to take ASVL sedatives twice and other medication for five months.

She also related how she was often harassed unnecessarily by the Israeli military soldiers whatever she went through checkpoints. They soldiers would detain her at these checkpoints for one or two hours or several hours before allowing her through or sometimes refusing entry.
The prosecution also called Anne Sunde, a 66-year-old Norwegian who is residing in Belgium. She was working as a volunteer social worker for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in Beirut in the Sabra and Shatila Camps.

She related, "On 4 June 1982, I visited my friend at Fakhani. While we are chatting in the building, which housed the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) offices, we heard loud noises of planes flying over. We rushed to the shelter in the basement of the building. Then we heard bombing nearby our building. It was loud. The building shook and I was expecting to die under it. It was my first experience of direct violence. One becomes aware what life is. The bombing seemed eternity."

She said, "After a few days the PRCS set up a hospital in La Houd School, Hamra. Since nobody among the volunteers wanted to do cleaning (janitor), I volunteered. I did this together with Kurdish refugees."

She said, "Finally I decided to go back to Belgium on 15 September 1982 via Damascus. However, since it was the morning after Bachir Gemayel's (the then President-elect) death, there were no taxis to take me to Damascus. Great nervousness was felt in town. I returned to the PRCS headquarter in Hamra where most of the foreigners were located."

She then proceeded to relate her harrowing experiences of the killings at the Sabra and Shatila Camps. She further related that when she went to the Shatila Camp she saw many dead bodies of adults and children, both male and female, in strange positions. I also saw dead animals. The bodies were already decomposing and bloated in the summer heat. The smell, she said, was unbearable and there were flies all over.
She added, "It was a horrible scene and they were digging mass graves to bury the dead."

The prosecution next called the 66-year-old Italian expert witness Paola Manduca, a retired Professor at University of Genoa, Italy who is an expert Geneticist. In 2011, she conducted and coordinated two research projects relating to the impact of weapons on reproductive health arising from the attacks in Gaza, especially to children. She also personally spent about more then a year from December 2010 to April 2012 in Gaza, conducting research in Pediatric and maternity hospitals.

She said, "The outcome of our research points to the degradation of the reproductive health and increase in major structural birth defects, following and correlated to the military attacks and possibly to the input of toxic, carcinogen and teratogen (development interfering) agents delivered by weaponry in the environment and in the wounds of victims, and of their assumption by the inhabitants."

She related, "We showed by analytical chemistry methods that in Gaza teratogen and carcinogen metals are found in wounds, in craters since 2006 attacks and in White Phosphorus ammunitions in 2009 and children hair one year after the 2008/09 attacks."

She said, "Our study of birth defects in 0 to 2 year old children registered in 5 paediatric hospitals in Gaza Strip showed that there is a 1.8 fold higher frequency of birth defects in the first 6 months of year 2010, compared to the same period in 2006."

She testified that there was an increase in birth defects in Gaza starting in 2005-06. "It is our view that such sudden increases in birth defects are usually associated to significant and sudden environmental changes."

She confirmed that the start of the increases is correlated in their timing to the military attacks, after the Israeli armed forces left Gaza, and the first news from medical personnel on "unprecedented" wounds, meaning new kinds of wounds from weapons.

She said, "We found that 66% of Gaza parents with a birth defect child were exposed to bombing or /and White Phosphorus shelling during Operation Cast Lead in 2008/09."

She continued, "Couples with birth defect children reported exposure to White Phosphorus 15 fold more often than couples with normal child."
She added, "Our studies have presented proof of a rise in birth defects in Gaza, increasing after the attacks in 2006 and continuing increase up to 2011. It showed correlation of birth defect occurrence with exposure to White Phosphorus shelling. In also showed contamination of the soil by teratogen and carcinogen metals. It showed accumulation of these teratogen and carcinogen metals in children' hair. She also presented proof that teratogen and carcinogen metals are delivered by weapons into the flesh of victims."

She concluded that there is long-term effect on reproductive health associated to metal contamination by exposure to weaponry during war and by war remnants.

The Prosecution in its submission urged the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC) to make the necessary recommendations on the indictment and persons to be charged to the KLWC Tribunal. They recommended that the state of Israel be indicted for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide from the evidence tendered.

International commissions over the years have concluded that Israel had committed genocide and war crimes. After Operation Cast Lead the UN Goldstone Report stated that Israel committed war crimes in the destruction of civilian infrastructure and in the killing of civilians.

The UN Security Council resolution 521 (1982) condemned the criminal massacre of Palestinian civilians in Sabra and Shatila. The UN General Assembly resolution (ES-7/9 24 September 1982) resolved that the massacre was an act of genocide. The UN MacBride Commission formed after the Sabra and Shatila massacre concluded that Israel had committed genocide and war crimes.

The UN General Assembly on 16 December 1982 passed a resolution reaffirming the applicability of the Geneva Convention to the protection of civilians in the occupied Palestinian and Arab territories including Jerusalem. It noted the failure of Israel to comply with numerous resolutions. It noted also that the actions and record establish conclusively that it is not a peace loving member state and has not carried out its obligations under the Charter of the United Nations.

And yet the international community has failed to take any action against Israel.

Genocide, under the 1948 Genocide Convention is the deliberate infliction of conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of a people in whole or in part. The evidence adduced show that the state of Israel has been engaged in acts of genocide against the Palestinian people. Genocide includes both physical and mental harm caused by the Israeli occupation as well as the bombing and killing of civilians that is going on even now in Gaza.

Gaza and West Bank are under military occupation of Israel. The Fourth Geneva Convention provides protection for people under a military occupation. Israel has breached practically all the articles of the Geneva Convention.

Israel's contention that it is not in occupation of Gaza and West Bank once it withdrew its troops. The reality is Israel is in occupation since the test is belligerent control –Israel is in control. It has blockaded Gaza from the sea and surrounded it by a wall on the land. The Egyptian border is sealed with Gaza. Israel exercises control with the blockade of Gaza, the attack and killing of civilians, the denial of essential supplies, constant killing of civilians. Gaza is under siege.

The World Court in its Advisory Opinion in 'the wall case' in July 2004, participated by the Israeli and Palestinians, rejected all of Israel's arguments that they are not an occupying force. The opinion of the World Court was that the construction of the wall in Occupied Palestinian Territory is contrary to international law.

Israel is stealing Palestinian water and diverting it to Israel and its settlers while Palestinians are being deprived of water. Hundreds of checkpoints have been established by Israel across West Bank and Gaza limiting the access of Palestinians travelling from town to town. With the wall built by Israel the Palestinians are almost in a 'prison'.

Wide spread systematic torture of Palestinians as shown in evidence before the Commission have in numerous cases been documented extensively over the years by human rights organisations including Amnesty International that clearly show that Israel has committed war crimes.

Based on evidence and records, the Sabra and Shatila massacre is a clear case of genocide and war crimes. The Israeli forces had played a key role in working with the Phalangist militia in perpetrating this crime. The Palestinian fighters had withdrawn to Tunisia and the Palestinian civilians at the camps were assured by the US that they would be protected under the Habib Agreement. The International forces consisting of Italian, French and US forces withdrew a day before the massacre started and reappeared after that in Beirut.

Crimes against humanity come from the Nuremberg trials drafted by the US to deal with the Nazis prosecution of Jews which include murder, torture, imprisonment, rape, persecution of a specific identifiable group based on racial, national, ethnic basis. Interestingly, the Israeli war crimes are the same with the only difference being the scale but it is an on going process of destruction of the Palestinian people.

The International Criminal Court (ICC) had refused to accept the Palestine complaint on war crimes against Israel. Palestinians have tried to obtain justice that has been continuously denied to them. The Palestinian complainants now turn to the KLWCC for assistance in obtaining justice.

The Commission upon hearing the evidence and the prosecution submissions announced that as per the charter of the KLWCC they would be deliberate on the facts and the law and prepare a report and its recommendations at a later date.

The 5-panel Commissioners' is headed by Musa Ismail, a former Magistrate, who is currently a practicing lawyer. The other Commissioners include lecturer and author Prof Hans-Christof von Sponeck, who was also a former UN Assistant Secretary General responsible for humanitarian operations in Iraq, Nobel peace prize nominee Denis J. Halliday, who worked for the UN for 34 years and was head of the UN Humanitarian Programme in Iraq, Dr Zulaiha Ismail, former Dean of the Centre for Graduate Studies Universiti Teknologi MARA (UiTM) and currently actively involved with NGOs specifically on the plight of the Palestinians and Michel Chossudovsky, professor of economics emeritus, University of Ottawa and Director, Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG).

The prosecution team for the commission hearing is lead by Prof Gurdial Singh Nijar, prominent law professor and author of several law publications. He is assisted by Prof Francis Boyle, Avtaran Singh and Gan Pei Fern.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:41 AM

But for the missiles, Israel would not have to take action against them.
IDF only targeted in that way confirmed combatants.
The Shin Bet 6 confirmed that.
Israel acted within the law, Hamas were guilty of indiscriminately attacking civilians, operating from civilian areas and placing people as human shields.

The 6 might be right that Israel's security was not improved, but Israel's actions in response to the missiles was restrained and legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:15 AM

20.^ "How Hamas took over the Gaza Strip". BBC News. June 15, 2007. Retrieved January 4, 2010.

21.^ Gaza-Westbank – ICRC Bulletin No. 22 / 2007, AlertNet. Retrieved June 16, 2007.

22.^ Gaza: Armed Palestinian Groups Commit Grave Crimes, Human Rights Watch, June 13, 2007.

23.^ Hospitals offer no safety in Gaza strip, ABC News, June 13, 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:12 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_conflict




37.^ al-Mughrabi, Nidal (November 12, 2007). "Gunfire kills seven at Fatah rally in Gaza". Reuters.

38.^ "Eight dead in Gaza faction clash". BBC News. January 1, 2008. Retrieved May 2, 2010.

39.^ "6 Die as Palestinian Authority Forces Clash with Hamas." New York Times, June 1, 2009, Ethan Bronner [2]

40.^ a b c "Hamas and Fatah hammered for human rights abuses against their own people". thenational. 19May 2011. Retrieved 4 January 2013.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:08 AM

According to B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, 500 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians from September 29, 2000 to March 31, 2012 in Israel, and another 254 Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.[71]
B'tselem reported that the main argument used to justify violence against civilians is that "all means are legitimate in fighting for independence against a foreign occupation". B'Tselem criticized this argument, saying it is completely baseless, and contradicts the fundamental principle of international humanitarian law.
"According to this principle, civilians are to be protected from the consequences of warfare , and any attack must discriminate between civilians and military targets. This principle is part of international customary law; as such, it applies to every state, organization, and person, even those who are not party to any relevant convention."[72]
B'Tselem further noted that Palestinian spokespersons distinguish between attacks inside Israel proper and attacks directed at settlers in the Occupied Territories, stating that since the settlements are illegal and many settlers belong to Israel's security forces, settlers are not entitled to the international law protections granted to civilians. Human rights group B'tselem rejected this argument, and stated:
"The illegality of the settlements has no effect at all on the status of their civilian residents. The settlers constitute a distinctly civilian population, which is entitled to all the protections granted civilians by international law. The Israeli security forces' use of land in the settlements or the membership of some settlers in the Israeli security forces does not affect the status of the other residents living among them, and certainly does not make them proper targets of attack. B'Tselem strongly opposes the attempts to justify attacks against Israeli civilians by using distorted interpretations of international law. Furthermore, B'Tselem demands that the Palestinian Authority do everything within its power to prevent future attacks and to prosecute the individuals involved in past attacks."[72]
Rocket attacks within the green line [edit]
See also: Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel


Israeli boy crippled by Palestinian rocket fire.
Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip have occurred since 2001. Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries,[73][74] as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life.[75]
The weapons, often generically referred to as Qassams, were initially crude and short-range, mainly affecting the Israeli city of Sderot and other communities bordering the Gaza Strip. However, in 2006 more sophisticated rockets began to be deployed, reaching the larger coastal city of Ashkelon, and by early 2009 major cities Ashdod and Beersheba had been hit by Katyusha and Grad rockets.
Attacks have been carried out by all Palestinian armed groups,[76] and, prior to the 2008–2009 Gaza War, were consistently supported by most Palestinians,[77][78][79][80] although the stated goals have been mixed. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
Defenses constructed specifically to deal with the weapons include fortifications for schools and bus stops as well as an alarm system named Red Color. Iron Dome, a system to intercept short-range rockets, was developed by Israel and first deployed in the spring of 2011 to protect Beersheba and Ashkelon, but officials and experts warned that it would not be completely effective. Shortly thereafter, it intercepted a Palestinian Grad rocket for the first time.[81]
The attacks were a stated cause of the Gaza blockade, the Gaza War (Dec 27, 2008 – Jan 21, 2009) and other Israeli military operations in the Gaza Strip, including Operation Rainbow (May 2004), Operation Days of Penitence (2004), the 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict, Operation Autumn Clouds (2006), and Operation Hot Winter (2008).
Attacks began in 2001. Since then, nearly 4,800 rockets have hit southern Israel, just over 4,000 of them since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. The range of the rockets has increased over time. The original Qassam rocket has a range of about 10 km (6.2 mi) but more advanced rockets, including versions of the old Soviet Grad or Katyusha have hit Israeli targets 40 km (25 mi) from Gaza.[73]
Some analysts see the attacks as a shift away from reliance on suicide bombing, which was previously Hamas's main method of attacking Israel, and an adoption of the rocket tactics used by Lebanese militant group Hezbollah.[82]
Denial of service attacks on the emergency services [edit]
There have been a number of reports in the Israeli press about denial of service attacks by Palestinians on the Magen David Adom and other emergency call lines.[83][84][85][86][87][88][89] A spokesman said that they had received up to 2400 harassing calls per day to the Beersheba MDA office[85] deputy Mayor of Sderot said that after investigation that Palestinians were blocking the ability[84] of citizens to seek for help after mortar and missile attacks, According to the MDA director in the Negev some callers identified themselves as Palestinians and said that they had been paid to make the calls.[85] The director said the calls were intended to block the MDA's ability to provide emergency services particularly during major events such as mortar[86] attacks.[85] As of 2006[85][87] filtering systems had been developed and deployed to handle with this type of calls, according to MDA 2008 report one filtering system recognized more than 129,000 phone calls as abusive calls.[90]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:07 AM

Source of last cut and paste and what are the footnotes?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:07 AM

On November 12, a large demonstration dedicated to the memory of late Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat was organized by Fatah in Gaza City. With over 200,000 participants, this was the largest Fatah demonstration in the Gaza Strip since the Hamas takeover. The demonstration was forcibly dispersed by Hamas gunmen, who fired into the crowd. At least six civilians were killed and over 80 people were injured, some from being trampled in the resulting stampede.[37] The smaller militant group Islamic Jihad, whose members have clashed with Hamas several times, condemned the shootings.
2008-present [edit]
On January 1, 2008, at least eight people died in factional fighting in the Gaza Strip.[38]
On May 31, 2009, six people were killed as Palestinian Authority and Hamas forces clashed in Qalqilya. Ethan Bronner described the fighting as an indication "that the Palestinian unity needed for creation of a state is far off."[39]
In 2011, Commission for Human Rights (ICHR), observed that "due to the failure of the reconciliation efforts between Fatah and Hamas throughout 2010, and the ongoing internal political division, the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have been the main victims of the political dispute between both combatant parties," the report observed. Noting the "overwhelming majority" of prisoners being political prisoners as well as "delayed, circumvented or ignored rulings by Palestinian court" and "rise in torture allegations from the previous year".[40] Both groups nevertheless expressed willingness to tackle the issue of political prisoners as a gesture of goodwill. Hamas spokesman Taher al-Nunu said the group would grant amnesty to some 30 Fatah-affiliated political prisoners held after the group took over the Gaza Strip in 2007. Fatah's Sha'ath, also speaking in Gaza, said preparations were underway to release dozens of Hamas prisoners being held in the West Bank.[40]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:02 AM

Battle of Gaza [edit]
Main article: Battle of Gaza (2007)
Throughout June 7 and 15, of fighting Hamas took control of the main north–south road and the coastal road.[20] and removed Fatah officials. The ICRC estimated that at least 118 people were killed and more than 550 wounded during the fighting in the week up to June 15.[21] Human Rights Watch accused both sides with violations of international humanitarian law. Including the targeting and killing of civilians, public executions of political opponents and captives, throwing prisoners off high-rise apartment buildings, fighting in hospitals, and shooting from a jeep marked with "TV" insignias.[22] The International Committee of the Red Cross has denounced attacks in and around two hospitals in the northern part of the Gaza strip.[23] The Israeli government closed all check-points on the borders of Gaza in response to the violence.



"People who carry out atrocities such as these are war criminals and those who support and justify them are sick bastards."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 10:55 AM

"It is legal to target a combatant, even when not engaged in hostilities."
These are not combatants being targeted - they are not even proven "terrorists", it is the indiscriminate killing of everybody who happen to be in the vicinity - that is a war crime when no opposition being offered and the suspects are merely going about their everyday lives.   
The dropping of a bomb on apartments containing a large number of families can neither be described as lawful killing in combat, nor can those families be described as "hostages" - that is the term you have chosen to justify what has been described by human rights organisations and by the UN as "war crimes" - it has been defended by the the US vetos - totally unnecessarily if they had been legal.
Even the Yanks have found it necessary to invent a new term, "collateral damage" to justify it.      
"Firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians, firing from civilian areas and using human shields to prevent counter strikes are all serious war crimes" ..... have all been perpetrated by the Israelis at one time or another - you've just been presented with a batch of human shields used by them. Israel has indiscriminately targeted homes, schools, hospitals and entire streets in their incursions, and from even before the state was set up Jewish "freedom fighters" were throwing hand grenades into occupied houses to clear the ground of Arabs - these are historically documented facts.
The more I read the obscene filth that you write, the more I find myself in total agreement with the Shin Beth guys who pointed out that "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter". It is Israel's expansionist policy that is the cause of these hostilities, it is the refusal by them to negotiate a settlement, (as claimed by the security officials), that is prolonging it, and it is all the evidence that has been presented to you throughout these discussions that makes Israel a fascist, ethnic cleansing state with no regard for human life, and recognised as such by the rest of the world, including decent humane Israelis.
People who carry out atrocities such as these are war criminals and those who support and justify them are sick bastards.
Take your one-man defence of war crimes and shove them - we've got the message - Israel can do no wrong and is quite happy to plumb the depth because they can rely on the US veto to bail them out, just as Assad can rely on Russia and China to do the same in Syria - whence the difference?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 May 13 - 10:53 AM

"It is legal to target a combatant, even when not engaged in hostilities."

The world is filled with unjust, cold, inhuman and callous legalities. That proves nothing.

"Firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians, firing from civilian areas and using human shields to prevent counter strikes are all serious war crimes, not just committed by rogue individuals, but as standard operational procedure."

And Israel is guilty of all of these. And the human shields is a popular lie.

Standard operational procedures has made Israel a pariah of the world.

Jim, Keith has slammed the door on legitimate evidence but your presentation may help others on this site to see the bigger picture. Thanks for doing so.

Again, what is your motivation for your support of Israel Keith? Are you or not a Christian fundamentalist who has a biblical injunction to protect?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 09:25 AM

TERRORIST STATES DROPPING BOMBS ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS TO ASSASSINATE TERRORISTS - WHICH THEY WERE IDENTIFIED AS DOING IN THE LAST INCURSION, AND WHICH THE SHIN BETH MEN SAID WAS A LONG-TERM PRACTICE

It is legal to target a combatant, even when not engaged in hostilities.
It is not a terrorist act.(See quote from International Committee of Red Cross linked to earlier.)
It was never disputed that it was a long-term practice.

Firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians, firing from civilian areas and using human shields to prevent counter strikes are all serious war crimes, not just committed by rogue individuals, but as standard operational procedure.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 08:06 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkEzJZGNyMI
Israel [edit]
The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]
Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] said the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]
In February 2007, Associated Press Television News released footage of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian. The video appears to show the West Bank resident serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers.[31][32] The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident.[31] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank raid.[33]
During the 2008-2009 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and former Israeli soldiers (see Breaking the Silence). According to testimonies, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[34][35]
The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during 2008-2009 Gaza Conflict[36][37]
The Guardian has compiled three videos[38] and testimony from civilians of alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza war, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields, the targeting of medics and hospitals, and drone aircraft firing on civilians deliberately.[39] Three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family have claimed that "they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them".[39]
An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[39]
However, in a report on the Gaza conflict,[40] released July 2, 2009, Amnesty International wrote that Israel did use human shields in Gaza. Amnesty claimed to have found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk. The report also criticized Hamas for human rights violations, but "found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings".[41] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas".
On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[42] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[43][44][45]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield

Two Israeli soldiers who used a nine-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield were given suspended sentences and demoted after being convicted of "inappropriate conduct".
The unnamed soldiers, from the Givati Brigade, ordered Majeh Rabah, from the Tel al-Hawa neighbourhood in Gaza City, to check bags for explosives in January 2009, towards the end of Israel's three-week offensive.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/21/israeli-soldiers-human-shield-avoid-jail
ALL OF WHICH PROVES NOTHING MORE THAN BAD THINGS HAPPEN IN WAR AND HAVE NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH TERRORIST STATES DROPPING BOMBS ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS TO ASSASSINATE TERRORISTS - WHICH THEY WERE IDENTIFIED AS DOING IN THE LAST INCURSION, AND WHICH THE SHIN BETH MEN SAID WAS A LONG-TERM PRACTICE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 07:49 AM

Israel does target the homes of combatants.
That is legal.
In the video an attack was prevented by the use of human shields including children.
That is illegal.
Voluntary shields are entitled to no consideration, but IDF aborted the attack anyway.
IDF shows more concern for Palestinian lives than Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 07:40 AM

And your proof that Israel doesn't target occupied homes - an unidentified and virtually impenetrable film clip claiming that somebody did something somewhere - Proof - you are a joke Keith
And the rest as usual - "Lies, Lies and Lies"
As I said boring and very, very disturbed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 06:27 AM

- Israel has now made it common practice to target "terrorists" in their homes, no matter how many non combatants are concerned - you even responded to this in the past with some crap about mobile phones.
Not true Jim, as this video proves. (PROVES!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE

Your own support for British fascists (in wartime) by describing them as "harmless"
Another Jim lie.
and your attempts to link Israeli war crimes with being Jewish makes you an anti-Semite.
Another Jim lie.
You are a lying apologist for terrorism.
Another Jim lie.

I don't lie Jim, and have no need to anyway.
Your false claims need constant lies to prop them up, but they fall down anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 06:01 AM

This iis typical of your continual lying - Israel has now made it common practice to target "terrorists" in their homes, no matter how many non combatants are concerned - you even responded to this in the past with some crap about mobile phones.
Killing "human sandbags" is killing hostages pure and simple - you have said you are against this.
Your own support for British fascists (in wartime) by describing them as "harmless" and your attempts to link Israeli war crimes with being Jewish makes you an anti-Semite.
Your repetitive attempts to evade the consequences of your own arguments makes you a bore
You are a lying apologist for terrorism.
You a bi-polar mess.
Fuck off and close the door behind you.
Over and out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 05:04 AM

Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd murder missile at its people.
It would help if you named the target, but he must have been deeply involved in the missile programme.
As Red Cross states, that makes him a combatant and a legitimate target.

If he surrounds himself with human sandbags, none but he is responsible for the harm he brings to them.
Israel has a right to strike back at such war criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:56 AM

Nobody has "rubbished" my claim Keith - you are still on your own as an apologist for war crimes - this is a moronic monologue by you - a repetition of "Israel didn't do it".
Your UNLINKED claim by the International Red Cross referred to people who served a "continuous combat function" - which doesn't come anywhere near to describing the slaughter of apartment dwellers who might or might not have lived in an apartment block as a terrorist - at best it is support for the killing of hostages (by your own past description), but the intervies with the Shin Beth men showed it to be an act of calculated murder which is now established as accepted tactics by Israel.
IT IS DISTORTIONS SUCH AS THIS THAT MAKES YOUR INPUT HERE NO MORE THAN ATROCITY AND WAR-CRIMES DENIAL
You have provided no proof whatever of your claims and nor will you; as you said yourself, the only proof you have been able to find are the excuses and denials by Israel and her acolytes.
GFY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:05 AM

YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE THE FACT THAT DROPPING A BOMB ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS A BLATENT ACT OF TERRORISM - A WAR CRIME.
I provided a linked quote from ICRC that it was not.
You chose to restart this thread Jim, so do not complain that other posters rubbish your claims and weak arguments on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:52 AM

"Jim is back but avoiding the thread he himself restarted just a few days ago."
Are you still stalking me?
You are still providing nothing but your own twisted opinions, you are not attempting to qualify those opinions, you are not responding to the LINKED information you have been given, you are still rejecting out-of-hand anything that vaguely puts Israel in a poor light, you continue to ignore the official condemnation of Israel by the UN for its terrorist activities and the evidence provided by Amnesty, Jews For Justice, Human Rights Watch....
YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE THE FACT THAT DROPPING A BOMB ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS A BLATENT ACT OF TERRORISM - A WAR CRIME.
Why on earth should I waste my time on a sad, attention-seeking moron who seems to be getting it off of State terrorism and ethnic cleansing.
Say something worth listening to and you have my undivided attention - go on as you are doing and you continue to be a one-man freak show.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:54 AM

its contribution to genocide.
!
It goes to extraordinary lengths not to kill Gazans while trying to stop the indiscriminate, murderous missiles launched as part of a mission to kill any and all Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:49 PM

But there are more Palestinian killing missiles. The casualties on the Gaza side are far greater than in Israel.

I don't like missiles and I think that to fire them is wrong. But I don't see how Israel can absolve itself in its contribution to genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:28 PM

Not disproportionate enough to actually stop them firing their Jew killing missiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:53 AM

"Tell Jim that Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd missile at its people."

No. It amounts attacks on collective Palestinian people for the works of an individual "odd missile". Highly disproportionate response. "Cast Lead". "Pillar of Cloud".

This is not justice but war-mongering for the purpose of expanding the perversion of Zionism. And this is not an anti-Semitic statement since Zionists can't claim the general
name of Semitic which involves many people in the Middle East.

The solution is to return to the justice of David ben-Gurion and turn Israel into a socialist state that embraces Palestinians giving them equal political voice as well as immigrant Jews.

More dictators that Israel supports: Ronald Reagan, G.W.Bush and Richard Nixon.

To quote Bush: "Dictatorship is fine as long as I'm the dictator". (very funny!)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:48 PM

So Don, you think the murderous illegal missiles were OK because they only terrorised families without killing too many.
No matter that people and kids have to huddle underground instead of school and work.
No matter that people were driven out of S.Israel.
No sign of prejudice there then.
You are a nasty, bigoted person.

Gazan families do not need shelters because nobody is targeting them.

Tell Jim that Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd missile at its people.
The target must have been deeply involved in the missile programme.
As Red Cross states, that makes him a combatant and a legitimate target.
If he surrounds himself with human sandbags, none but he is responsible for the harm he brings to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 May 13 - 11:08 AM

There can be no justification for violence on either Israeli or Palestinian sides. But the egregious attitude is to ignore one side in favor of the other, to excuse Israeli military violence for any reason and to ignore the oppression of the Palestinian people by the Israeli military.

This kind of idolatry is symptomatic of a "true believer" who will accept no other way of looking at the issue.

Fortunately, there are many Jews, and their number is growing, that see the perversion of the Zionist movement by Netanyhu and his henchmen.

Israel has become a theocracy and has extinguished its earlier socialist movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:44 AM

""Are we to take it that you no longer oppose the killing of civilians?""

He never did! He just denied all evidence relating to it except when an Israeli died.

I should have thought you would have picked up on the fact that he considers frightening Israelis to be a far worse crime than killing Arab men women and children who have the misfortune to be in the blast radius of a bomb aimed at one "terrorist", identified as such, of course, only by the Israelis.

Look back at his posts about Israelis cowering in fear in their shelters, while Gaza civilians have no shelters because Israel won't allow the materials to build them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 09:32 AM

Jim is back but avoiding the thread he himself restarted just a few days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:29 AM

Refresh, awaiting Jim's return.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:15 AM

My last was in reply to, "DELIBERATELY DROPPING A BOMB ON AN OCCUPIED APARTMENT BLOCK IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS AN ACT OF TERROR AND A WAR CRIME - IF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE PRODUCE (LINKED) PROOF THAT IT IS NOT."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:55 AM

'Police officers are not legitimate military targets. They are of course a very common target in many conflicts, and such attacks are generally recognised as terrorist acts, whoever carries them out'.

Moot point. The Royal Irish Constabulary (and, after 1922, the Royal Ulster Constabulary) were constituted as a centrally-controlled armed force, outside of the nominal local, civilian control which governed policing in the rest of the UK (apart from the Met, which falls under the Home Office). Indeed, the RUC was the only UK police force whose budget and establishment were included in the United Kingdom Statememt of Defence Estimates (the annual publication which outlines British military spending for the upcoming year). Not that I'm condoning or advocating killing coppers, but in the case of Northern Ireland the distinction between the military and civilian security apparatuses (apparati?) is (or was) something of a false one. That is, I would think, even more so in heavily-militarised parts of the world like the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:25 AM

guidelines of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) published in June 2009. The ICRC opined that anyone who fulfills a "continuous combat function" should be considered a combatant even if he is not taking a direct part in hostilities at the moment he is killed and a person who does not fulfill a continuous combat function, but is killed when directly participating in hostilities, is also considered a combatant;

This from the page I linked to earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:20 AM

McG, that is an opinion.
An alternative opinion, "Human Rights Watch stated that police are presumptively civilians but are considered valid targets if formally incorporated into the armed forces of a party to a conflict or directly participate in the hostilities.[35] The IDF made clear that it regards police under the control of Hamas in Gaza to be inherently equivalent to armed fighters, including them in the militant's count.[31] The PCHR representative argued however that Israel wrongly classified 255 police officers killed at the outset of the war as militants,[36] explaining that International Law regards policemen who are not engaged in fighting as non-combatants or civilians.[31] Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) compiled a report saying that during Gaza War many supposedly civil policemen were at the same time operatives in Hamas's military wing.[37] ITIC stated that Hamas' military wing recruits police officers for military operations and that police forces were drafted to fight Israel during the war in January 2009.[38] One of ITIC bulletins also presented supposed evidence of Hamas policy to hide details of Hamas men who got killed or injured in the fighting.[39]
B'Tselem in its fatalities' figures report wrote that it knew many police officers in the Gaza Strip are also members of the military wings of Palestinian armed groups, and might have taken part in hostilities against Israel. At the same time, the NGO did not possess concrete information on integration of police officers in the combat forces of Hamas and was unable to determine whether all the police officers were legitimate targets or whether the Palestinian police in Gaza, as an institution, is part of the combat forces of Hamas, all of whose members carry out a continuous combat function. For these reasons, police officers that were killed in an attack aimed at police or police stations, were listed by B'Tselem in a separate category.[24]
The controversial Goldstone Report concluded that while there were many individual Gaza policemen who were members of militant groups, the Gaza police forces were a civilian police force and "cannot be said to have been taking a direct part in hostilities and thus did not lose their civilian immunity from direct attack as civilians".[40] The report did not "rule out the possibility that there might be individuals in the police force who retain their links to the armed groups" but finds no evidence that the police were part of the Gaza armed forces and that it "could not verify the allegations of membership of armed groups of policemen."[40] NGO UN Watch noted that the Goldstone Report relies on the testimony of the Gaza police spokesperson Islam Shahwan and accepts the interpretation of his own words "face the enemy" as meaning "distributing food stuffs".[41] In the initial response to the fact-finding mission's report, issued on September 24, 2009, the Israeli Government further added that "in seeking to support its assertion" that the police in Gaza were a civilian police force, not only did the committee reinterpret some of the evidence, but also ignored other explicit statements of the police officials, e.g. the alleged admission by Hamas police chief Jamal al-Jarrah that "the police took part in the fighting alongside the resistance".[42]
The ICT said that many of those listed by PCHR as civilians, including civil policemen, were in fact hailed as militant martyrs by Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 13 - 09:14 AM

Police officers are not legitimate military targets. They are of course a very common target in many conflicts, and such attacks are generally recognised as terrorist acts, whoever carries them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:50 AM

Some context for all this - death toll since 2,000
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:29 AM

That is not "editing anything Keith - do not accuse me of what you did persistently once upon a time before you stopped supplying links in order to disclose that your "quotes" were from Zionist hate sites or were made up by you.
I selected the line that was relevant - that you are claiming that dropping bombs on an apartment block in order to assassinate a claimed and untried "terrorist" is a war crime.
You are now attempting to evade the consequences of that statement with a diversion.
DELIBERATELY DROPPING A BOMB ON AN OCCUPIED APARTMENT BLOCK IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS AN ACT OF TERROR AND A WAR CRIME - IF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE PRODUCE (LINKED) PROOF THAT IT IS NOT.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:20 AM

The quote of mine you quoted, you also edited Jim.
Actual quote,
"The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR
No. It is not.
The six say that it is counter-productive for Israel.
You and I might think they are right, but it is not terrorism.
Terrorism is what the Palestinians do- killing civilians deliberately and for no other reason than to terrorise civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:10 AM

It is legitimate to target an enemy combatant, uniformed or terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:56 AM

And by the way - I specified exactly what I was referring to, I made several point on the contradictions in your claims and asked a specific question - I also requested that you provided linked evidence to your claims - please respond to all of these.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:46 AM

"Jim I was referring to Pillar of Cloud operation."
I don't give a **** what you were referring to - the discussion was about a bomb being dropped on an apartment block in order to kill a claimed terrorist - that was the thread of the discussion which arose from the statements by the Shin Beth heads.
If what they say was accurate this is a war crime despite your claims that killing civilians in order to carry out an assassination is acceptable - and before you claim you never said such a thing:
"The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR"
No. It is not.
You and I might think they are right, but it is not terrorism."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:02 AM

McG, some estimates of those casualties are given here.
IDF did target Hamas Police, regarding them as combatants.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War

Jim I was referring to Pillar of Cloud operation.
Are you talking about something else?
Please be specific re what you think need verifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 02:50 AM

AS I pointed out, this was not legitimate combat - it was an assassination where rules of combat do not apply.
To carry out such an assassination on the homes of civilians IS YET ANOTHER ISRAELI WAR CRIME
"
Israel issued written warnings and made thousands of phone calls to Gaza residents, advising them to stay far away "
It was a secret operation - no advance warning was given.
Assuming you are deliberately avoiding the assassination and talking about the last incursion:
"phone calls to Gaza residents, advising them to stay far away "
Where do you suggest that the entire population of Gaza should have evacuated themselves to - are you seriously suggesting that the Israelis announced which homes were to be bombed in order to kill terrorists, in advance?
CAN YOU PLEASE GIVE LINKS TO ALL THESE CLAIMS OR DO YOU INTEND TO CONTINUE MAKING UP THIS INFORMATION AS YOU GO ALONG?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:33 PM

Of 167 Palestinians killed in the last Gaza "war" 69 were identified by Israel as combatants. A fifth of the civilians killed were children under 12.

True enough if Israel had been aiming to maximise killing they could have killed a great many more, as they had demonstrated back in 2009 when well over a thousand were killed, most of them civilians and hundredsof those being children.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:43 PM

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:14 AM

Don, they hit about 1500 targets in a heavily populated area and only killed about 100 civilians.

That means either that they are total incompetents at killing civilians, or they are brilliant at missing them.


Israel issued written warnings and made thousands of phone calls to Gaza residents, advising them to stay far away
from terrorist installations that would be targeted in air strikes.
Only 25 percent of those killed during NATO's operations in Kosovo were combatants, and that was a much less densely populated than Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:44 PM

Can you show us how they cases here "took reasonable efforts" to avoid or minimise casualties
Yes.
In accordance with the law, warning were issued before the strikes, and highly accurate munitions used near civilian homes.

How do you define "illegally operating"
Firing indiscriminate missiles loaded with explosives and fragments at civilians.

"As I said, they achieved an extraordinarily and historically low number of civilian casualties,"
Utter crap - where is your evidence to back this up?
How selective your memory is Jim!
We have discussed this all before.
I think it was Bobad who first posted the statistics with comparisons to recent similar actions like the NATO airstrikes in Yugoslavia.


Incidentally - none of this "international law" invention is in any way relevant to any of this.
Yes it is.
The IDF action was in response to the rain of anti-personnel missiles on its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 13 - 12:17 PM

Incidentally - none of this "international law" invention is in any way relevant to any of this.
These were ASSASSINATIONS - no combat involved asn acts of terror in their own right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 13 - 11:13 AM

The point I was making is where civilians are killed in order to deter the civilian population from cooperating with the other side, or to punish it for doing so, that is in itself an act of terrorism. It is in fact an extreme form of hostage taking.

The Boston Marathon bombing would appear to fall into this category of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:55 AM

"You may target an enemy illegally operating in a civilian area if you make all reasonable efforts to avoid or minimise civilian casualties."
Can you show us how they cases here "took reasonable efforts" to avoid or minimise casualties while dropping a bomb on a block of flats (also those that were dropped during the incursion)
How do you define "illegally operating" - as the targets discussed were not "operating", but living there?
"As I said, they achieved an extraordinarily and historically low number of civilian casualties,"
Utter crap - where is your evidence to back this up?
"The head of the Shin Bet reported to the Israeli Cabinet that of the 810 Palestinians killed in Gaza in 2006 and 2007, 200 were civilians (a ratio of approximately 1:3). Haaretz assessed this to be an underestimation of civilian casualties. Using B'tselem's figures they calculated that 816 Palestinians had been killed in Gaza during the two-year period, 360 of whom were civilians.[25] 1,010 Israelis were killed between September 29, 2000 and January 1, 2005. Of these, 773 were civilians killed in Palestinian attacks, resulting in a ratio of approximately 5:1.[26]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israeli.E2.80.93Palestinian_conflict
Are we to take it that you no longer oppose the killing of civilians?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:16 AM

As I said, they achieved an extraordinarily and historically low number of civilian casualties, and some of those, like the BBC man's child, transpired to be from Palestinian missiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:29 AM

Yes International law condemns Israel for punishing collectively Palestinians. Rachel Corrie was targeted for defending the destruction of Palestinian homes.

Whose to say what is legal in targeting an "enemy" in a civilian area? And there is no
attempt to avoid or minimize Palestinian casualties. This is not true.

The small hope for Israel has to do with the people of Israel who still have a conscience and they are there protesting the brutal tactics of Netanyahu and the Israeli military.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:10 AM

In the final analyses this seeks to justify any and every action by parties in a conflict. It amounts to a licence for war criminals.

No. International law is quite clear on this.
Collective punishment is not allowed.
Targeting civilians is not allowed.
You may target an enemy illegally operating in a civilian area if you make all reasonable efforts to avoid or minimise civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:04 AM

"I am afraid that is precisely the argument that has been used to justify attacks aimed at civilian targets"
It was exactly the excuse that the Nazis gave for the Lidice massacre following the assassination of Heydrich.
Keith has regularly accused Hamas of using human shields and hiding in occupied area - seems that his argument here is a movable feast to be applied as it suits his argument.
He has also stridently denied that he is in favour of killing hostages - which he appears now to be supporting.
"The six say that it is counter-productive for Israel."
Yet they also say that this is what was being done.
You have yet to respond to the fact that this is now regular practice by the Israelis, particulsarly during the last Gaza incursion (or are the links you have been given also "lies"?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:19 AM

"Yes, that seems a fair description of the connection."

You just can't help yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:56 AM

"If a person is "willing" to be used to allow terrorists commit murder with impunity, they make terrorists of themselves."

I am afraid that is precisely the argument that has been used to justify attacks aimed at civilian targets in all kinds of conflicts, including most relevantly here, Israeli civilians in buses or cafés. "Since you do not oppose the actions of your government, you are legitimate targets".

In the final analyses this seeks to justify any and every action by parties in a conflict. It amounts to a licence for war criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:20 AM

"" -snip- the relationship between Israeli settlers and Palestinians is similar to that between the German army and, say, Poland, not similar to how Germans treated Jews. -snip- ""

When the German occupying forces killed one hundred Poles for any one German soldier killed?

Yes, that seems a fair description of the connection.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:45 AM

No. It is not.

If a person is "willing" to be used to allow terrorists commit murder with impunity, they make terrorists of themselves.
In reality of course, the terrorists care not if the human shields are "willing" or not, and in any case, who can give consent on behalf of a child?

In spite of all that, in the last Gaza operation, the IDF achieved less collateral harm than has ever been achieved in urban warfare before.

The six may say that it did not improve Israel's security, and we might believe them, but they were not accusing themselves of terrorism.
They were responding to Palestinian terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:17 PM

Terrorism is violence causing death and injury to civilians with the aim of affecting the way they behave and the way they think. One of the motives for bombing a civilian district where an adversary is believed to be present is likely be to make people less willing to accept the presence among them of such people. Insofar as this motive is present it means that the bombing is an act of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 03:22 PM

The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR
No. It is not.
The six say that it is counter-productive for Israel.
You and I might think they are right, but it is not terrorism.
Terrorism is what the Palestinians do- killing civilians deliberately and for no other reason than to terrorise civilians.

The Boston bombs were planted by Americans.
It would be misleading to call that American terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 03:00 PM

"The murder of Rabin was not terrorism and nothing to do with the government of Israel."
The murder of Rabin was carried out by an Israeli terrorist - an act of terrorism.
It was deliberately provoked by mass meetings called by Extremist Rabbis and supported by thousands - an open incitement to terrorism.
Not one of those who organised or spoke at those meetings have been arrested or called to answer the crime that they were actually filmed at - State collusion in terrorism.
"No, unless Obama is a terrorist too."
A moot point - the US at Falujah, Afghanistan and Viet-Nam (and name any state where the CIA has operated) regularly used terror tactics.
The imprisonment and torture of suspects, keeping them in cages for years on end and failing to charge them with any crime are all acts of terror and are recognised as such.
The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR
The sanctioning of the murder of two kidnappers (one of them was kicked to death by soldiers) is an act of terror.
This is a bizarre defence of terrorist atrocities, even by your standards.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 02:38 PM

The deliberate dropping of a bomb in the middle of a town, knowing there were bound to be many casualties was to sanction deliberate 'collateral damage'.

No, unless Obama is a terrorist too.
The terrorists are legitimate targets and can be attacked if you make every effort to avoid or minimise collateral casualties.
Israel has always done that.

The murder of Rabin was not terrorism and nothing to do with the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 10:42 AM

Whoops - wrong one, should have been this
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=593863
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 10:37 AM

"The six do not describe Israel as "terrorist.""
Yes they do Keith - the link you were given first does exactly that - your link to the Telegraph review says that the comparison to the Nazis in Europe "should have been left of the cutting room floor" - whatever way you paint it, these concern acknowledged accusations of terrorism.
The murder of Rabin was an act of terror, the incitement to murder by extremist Rabbis at rallies attended by thousands of people was an act of terror, the failure on the part of the Government to take action against those who incited that murder, both before and after the fact, was collusion in an act of terror, the sanctioning of the dropping of a bomb on an occupied area in order to kill a terrorist was and act of terror..... there are other such examples in the film (which you have not seen and have only offered 2 reviews from the "many" you have claimed to have read).
"Are you claiming that the film accuses Israel of that?"
The deliberate dropping of a bomb in the middle of a town, knowing there were bound to be many casualties was to sanction deliberate 'collateral damage'. Acts such as this have been repeated over and over again in Gaza right up to the last incursion - the killing of non combatants is now par for the course for the Israelis - you should know; you have defended it often enough.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/17/world/meast/israel-gaza-strike-report
http://news.yahoo.com/israel-says-november-gaza-strike-killed-12-civilians-171146644.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/17/world/meast/israel-gaza-strike-report
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:43 AM

it talks about deliberate collateral damage

"deliberate" ?
Are you claiming that the film accuses Israel of that?

"Collateral damage is damage to things that are incidental to the intended target. It is frequently used as a military term where it can refer to the incidental destruction of civilian property and non-combatant casualties"

If deliberate rather than incidental, that would be a crime.
No reviewer I have seen mentions that, and I have read lots.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:35 AM

The six do not describe Israel as "terrorist."
Right?
That is your biased interpretation.
The reviewers obviously saw and studied the film.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100213410/the-gatekeepers-is-an-important-film-friends-of-israel-must-not-dismiss-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jordan-mainzer/is-occupation-sustainable_b_2945811.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:24 AM

I meant to write "giving no links to your claims", of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:15 AM

You are now telling me what a film that you haven't seen says and doesn't say.
Nobody has mentioned Jews and nobody has compared like-with-like as far as numbers are concerned - I have taken pains throughout all these discussions to say that in this respect there are no comparisons to be made.
Throughout, it talks about deliberate collateral damage, the incitement of the murder of a prime minister and then the refusal to charge those who incited that murder, the bombing of built up areas to kill one 'terrorist.... a whole host of deliberate acts of terrorism.
In essence, the whole film concludes with the accusation that Israel has become a terrorist state and the politicians have ruled out a peaceful solution =- and all this from six heads of the security service.
Produce your reviews, with links or stand exposed as a moronic liar.
Once more you have reverted to giving links to your claims - can't find any decent Zionist extremist quotes, no doubt!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:49 AM

This, by Jordan Mainzer, Huffington Post.

According to Avraham Shalom, head of the Shin Bet from 1981-1986, the Israeli occupation of Palestine is "a brutal force, similar to the Germans in World War II." While pundits have grossly taken this statement out of context to the point where it sounds like Shalom is calling Israelis Nazis, what he really means, as he distinguishes in the film, is that the relationship between Israeli settlers and Palestinians is similar to that between the German army and, say, Poland, not similar to how Germans treated Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:39 AM

I know from reading many reviews that the six do not accuse Israel of terrorism, only criticising Israel's response to Plaestinian terrorism.
I read this for instance, by Alan Johnson.
I am not uncritical of the film. Moreh should certainly have left one exchange with Avraham Shalom, head of the Shin Bet from 1980 to 1986 on the cutting room floor. Shalom clumsily compares Israel's occupation of the West Bank to the Nazis' treatment of the Poles during World War Two. In fact, some 1.8 to 1.9 million ethnic Polish civilians were victims during the German occupation and a comparison of that genocide to the West Bank after 1967 is worse than ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:26 AM

"Do any of the 6 accuse Israel of terrorism?"
Yes they ******* do - in the film they equate the behaviour of present-day Israel with that of the Nazis in the countries the conquered in Europe - Czechoslovakia and Poland springs immediately to mind ARE YOU REALLY SUGGESTING THAT LIDICE AND WARSAW WEREN'T ACTS OF TERRORISM
I ask again:
have you seen the film?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 06:44 AM

Do any of the 6 accuse Israel of terrorism?
No.
They do say that in response to Palestinian terrorism, Israel should not use military methods.
A political solution would be preferable.

Iran was mentioned first, not by me, in relation to its nuclear aspirations.
Egypt was only mentioned in the OP.I just quoted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 06:32 AM

"I say it does not accuse Israel of terrorism."
If the Nazis were not carrying out terrorist acts in the countries mentioned by the Sin Beth head - how the **** would you describe it
I ask again HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM?
No? - I thought not! It's not on general release in the UK
What has Iran and Egypt to do with this thread BTW?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 05:09 AM

This gives Iran at 9 and Egypt at 10.
Israel is not in the ten.
http://www.therichest.org/location/top-10-countries-with-the-biggest-armies-in-the-world/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 04:43 AM

I say it does not accuse Israel of terrorism.
Do you challenge that?
One of the Gatekeepers made a comparison to the Nazis in Poland, where millions were killed.

Steve,
Israel has the fourth biggest army in the world
I Google "biggest armies" and this was first hit.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-countries-with-largest-armies-map.html

Iran comes in at 6 but Israel is not in top ten.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 04:37 AM

By interviewing six former heads of the Shin Bet, Moreh strives to take this debate to a new level. Not only has he wheeled out some big guns, but he is prepared to use some loaded language as well: Avraham Shalom (career Shin Bet man, head of the agency from 1980 to 1986, pardoned by his political masters for ordering the extra-judicial execution of two Palestinian bus hijackers in 1983) tells Moreh that Israel's military has become "a brutal occupation force" and that Israel is treating the Palestinians in a manner similar to how the Germans treated the Dutch, Poles and others they occupied in World War II.
For many viewers the comparison will shock, and that is the point. It has to be said that throwing the 'Nazi' label around is not an uncommon tactic of Israeli political rhetoric, albeit an extreme one. Still, I suspect few who see the film will be shocked by the comparison to German occupation than one might expect, simply because The Gatekeepers prepares us almost too well for this conclusion. Using the interviews, extensive archival and drone footage, re-enactments, and still-photo diorama techniques, Moreh portrays a Shin Bet intelligence system so comprehensive, so intrusive and so long-lasting that by the time we reached the Shalom comparison to German occupation I was already reminded of a more recent Germany, an authoritarian one founded on Stasi secret service control (constant surveillance, pervasive use of informants, hundreds of thousands of arrests, targeted killing, etc).
http://www.opendemocracy.net/mark-taylor/israel-in-trouble-review-of-gatekeepers-by-dror-moreh

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 04:30 AM

"The Gatekeepers do not accuse Israel of terrorism,"
The film - still fresh in my memory - says exactly what I said it did - that Israel has become little better than Nazi Germany.
Perhaps you might like to tell us what you think it did say - you have seen it haven't you?
And as I said - you have less right than anybody else here to cry "thread drift" when you get into trouble - it is a constant practice of yours.
STOP ATTEMPTING TO MANIPULATE DISCUSSIONS.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 02:54 AM

Jim, you say, in big coloured capitals, " YOU ARE NOT AN OVERSEER ON THIS SITE - DO NOT TRY TO STOP WHAT YOU CAN'T HANDLE - IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS."
But Jim, you accused me of changing the subject.
You were wrong because it was a direct lift from the OP so not thread drift by any definition.
You made a big font, multicoloured twat of yourself again.

And the film.
The Gatekeepers do not accuse Israel of terrorism, they question the worth of a hard military response to Palestinian terrorism.

Steve,
It's amazing how you can be nuke-crazed yet have no nukes, innit!
Yes. Iran is the strongest military power in the region and threatened by no-one, but it destroys its economy and pauperises its people to acquire nukes.
That would be crazy if they had no purpose for those nukes when they get them.

Why have they got them then? Decoration?
No. Like us for deterrence.
You could question their nuclear intentions 50 years ago, but they have proved themselves responsible.
They have not used them in the face of attack, or even invasion, even when losing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:26 PM

Its just fun to collect 'em, Steve. Like stamps or baseball cards.
Especially if the USA is buying 'em for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:15 PM

Why have they got them then? Decoration?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:08 PM

"...if your next door neighbour were sitting on a couple of hundred NUCLEAR WARHEADS and the means to deliver them to your front garden at a minute's notice."

And why would they want to do that, pray tell?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:52 PM

It's amazing how you can be nuke-crazed yet have no nukes, innit!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:46 PM

""You can't see Iran, but the nuke-crazed mullahs aren't far away.""

Not far away maybe, and not particularly ""Nuke Crazed"" either, but I suapect that YOU might want some defensive nuclear capability, if your next door neighbour were sitting on a couple of hundred NUCLEAR WARHEADS and the means to deliver them to your front garden at a minute's notice.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:01 PM

Or the Faschoillamalists. Or mybe the Ramalamadingdongalists. Oe even the Zionistapologists.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:55 PM

Would that one could have such hope for those suffering the governance of the Islamofascists.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:38 PM

Keith, try Mubarak for one. Also, G.W. Bush and Cheney for others. Iraq was an exercise in killing innocents by basically American dictators.

I think Stephen Hawking has the right idea. Don't support the war-mongers in the Likud or the Israeli government.

There are some enlightened people in Israel who are unhappy with the government unlike those outside in America or the U.K.   This is why I have hope for Israel and condemn the Christian Zionazis who would destroy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:26 PM

It's a little country surrounded by neighbours some of whom are hostile to Israel with good reason. However, it's a little country with a big ally that asks no questions, ensures that Israel has the fourth biggest army in the world and which is itself the worlds most militarily-powerful nation.

As for this snippet from your link:

You can't see Iran, but the nuke-crazed mullahs aren't far away.

...well that's about the most blatant, evidence-innocent bit of scaremongering I've seen for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Wente
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:11 PM

Israel is a small country in a big, bad neighbourhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 02:23 PM

Read it Keith - nothing to do with main subject, or if it is, so is Israeli terrorism
The OP's first post was about Israeli behavior to its neighbours
You have been warned before about trying to censor what others write - YOU ARE NOT AN OVERSEER ON THIS SITE - DO NOT TRY TO STOP WHAT YOU CAN'T HANDLE - IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
If you are not going to respond to the undeniable evidence of Israeli terrorism by some of the people who were partly responsible for it, piss of or you'll be late for your goose-stepping lessons.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 13 - 08:20 AM

Jim, you clearly did not bother yourself to even read the OP.
My first post quoted passages from the OP, including the "Egyptian behaviour."
That is why it was in quotes Jim.

Here is my first post again.



He is entitled to his opinions, and no-one can stop Stringsinger filling our screens with them.

"You should know that in Sinai there are concentration camps that would not shame the Nazis. The refugees are held there for weeks, sometimes months, and subjected to hellish torture in order to extort money from their families in Sudan or Eritrea. We find people with burn marks and other signs of abuse; people who have been starved to the extreme; women who were raped and became pregnant and then need an abortion.

It is horrific. The Egyptian authorities have no access to them and also have no motivation [to deal with the problem]. The Bedouin do as they please"

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.

"When Hamas seized control in the Gaza Strip, they started to harass Fatah people in one of the most barbaric ways imaginable: by kneecapping them. We received requests from Gaza to treat wounded people who were in danger of losing their legs."

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.
And, they hate Jews more even than they hated those Palestinians.

"Happily, there have been no exploding buses and terrorist attacks lately, but that casts a veil over the fact that we are still sitting on a powder keg. In regard to the Palestinians, all our fondest dreams of a decade ago have come true: for there to be rational, serious people in their leadership, for the terrorism to stop."

Maybe the bus bombs stopped because they wanted peace, but they only stopped when the wall was built.
That seems the more likely reason.

Stringsinger, your paste job reminds us that Israel is surrounded by cruel and merciless killers, and has every reason to fear being at their mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:16 AM

The "Egyptian behaviour" was in the OP, as was Hamas behaviour.
So called "Israel terrorism" was not, and was not in any subsequent post until you restarted the thread.

Your attempted thread shift to hijack yet another thread is not going to get any support any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 05:35 AM

The title of this thread is "Small hope for Israeli/Palestine" - the "thread drift" that you scurry behind once again points out that there is no hope while Israel continues its present policy of expansionism by terror.
Your 13 year old link has nothing to do with the subject.
Your bringing up Egyptian behaviour has nothing to do with the subject.
You drift these threads whenever it suits you yet accuses others of doing the same when you are cornered.
The fact that you refuse to respond to "horses mouth" evidence of Israeli fascism is proof enough of what you are and what you stand for, as if you hadn't made that obvious from the beginning.
You are a sick apologist for state terrorism and mass murder - end of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:09 AM

Jim, this thread was never about "Israel's terrorism."
That was your thread drift, and I think you have had enough opportunities to try and make that case.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:57 AM

By the way
"The incident happened in 2000."
The link you put up is dated 2008 - but I bow to your information - by your own past arguments, the incident is 13 years out of date rather than the 5 years I mistakenly claimed - scraping even deeper into the bottom of the barrel for evidence that Israel is really a misunderstood little innocent due of "anti-Semitic propaganda".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:49 AM

Still nothing to do with the subject of Israel's history of terrorism.
You offered up in evidence for your claims a Zionist hate site which has described a doctor who works to bring about co-operation between Jews and Arabs by treating children as "a far-leftist anti-Zionist" and "active in the pro-terror anti-Israel propaganda"
It describes the organisation he works for as "pro terror" and a former director of that organisation, who also happens to be an Israeli war hero who was seriously wounded in defence of his country as "anti Semitic".
The language used by the author of that article "usual Jewish leftists" and "usual leftist proclamations" perfectly echoes your own statements throughout all of these discussions.
What has your link to do with the fact that present day Israel has, in the words of a former head of the Shin Beth, become "indistinguishable in all but the enormity from Nazi Germany"?
Israel is run by a sick terrorist regime, (I assume you are not going to comment on the evidence for that which has been given by six heads of the Israeli security service), and defenders of of that regime are sickos, no better than those who refuse to acknowledge the Holocaust.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:05 PM

Autumn 2011 report.
http://www.meforum.org/3076/muhammad-al-dura-hoax

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 02:59 PM

Yes it would.
The incident happened in 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:16 PM

Oh - and by the way - I suppose it would be somewhat churlish of me to point out that Keith's link is dated 2008
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:14 PM

It is virtually impossible to get any information on Keith's site unless you are a fluent French speaker, but it appears to be dedicated to defending Israel and attacking Arabs.
The author appears to be a Zionist as his article describes the doctor he is attacking as a "far-leftist anti-Zionist" and is scattered with phrases such as "usual Jewish leftists" and "usual leftist proclamations."
He describes Dr Raphael Gordon thus (and rather sinisterly includes Gordon's e-mail address in his article):
"Walden is a far-leftist anti-Zionist medical doctor with specialty in surgery, at Tel Hashomer hospital. He is active in the pro-terror anti-Israel propaganda group "Doctors for Human Rights," a group once run by anti-Semite Neve Gordon and which does not believe that Jews should be entitled to any human rights. He is also the son-in-law of Shimon Peres and often described in the press as Shimon Peres' personal physician."
This is the man the author describes as "pro-terror".
"Sheba's Prof. Raphi Walden Awarded the French Legion of Honor
Date12/07/2009
AuthorUnknown
SourceN/A
The Republic of France has awarded its highest honor, the Legion of Honor Award, to Prof. Raphael Walden, a Deputy Director of the Sheba Medical Center. Prof. Walden received the prestigious award in recognition of his leadership in the Israeli NGO, Physicians for Human Rights, and for his concrete contribution to Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation.
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, a close friend of Prof. Walden's, personally insisted on bestowing the "Officer of the Legion" award himself, during Kouchner's recent visit to Israel. Kouchner himself was one of the founders of the international NGO, Doctors without Borders.
Mr. Shimon Peres, President of the State of Israel, participated in the November 18 ceremony which was held at the French ambassador's residence in Jaffa. Prof. Walden is personal physician to Mr. Peres, while Peres is Walden's father-in-law. Former Israeli deputy foreign minister Yossi Beilin was also similarly awarded at the recent ceremony.
Prof. Walden is a vascular surgeon who for years was chief of surgery at Sheba. He is a professor at Tel Aviv University's Sackler School of Medicine, and has been a visiting professor at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston and at Salpetriere Hospital in Paris. He joined Physicians for Human Rights in 1992 and been one of its leaders ever since.
Sheba CEO Prof. Zeev Rotstein said that "We are all tremendously proud of Prof. Walden and thrilled to congratulate him on this most exalted award."
Further information can be found here:
http://www.childrenofpeace.org.uk/archiveold/oct10archive.html
and
http://www.unescochair.uconn.edu/upchrconference10.htm
Information on Neve Gordon, wh he describes as an "Anti-Semite can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neve_Gordon

Little wonder that Keith has refused to link his claims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:45 AM

Which "heartless killers, dictators" does the Israeli government support Stringsinger?
Not Assad. He has Iran and Russia.
Not the Saudis, or any of the Middle Eastern dictatorships.
Which?

Don, what "truth" have we denied?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:30 AM

Keith, the world is filled with heartless killers, dictators and the like. Israeli government supports some of them. So does the U.S.

So nu?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:37 AM

I told you exactly what would happen!

I did so hope I would be wrong, but the apologists cannot abide the truth, whatever the source.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:21 AM

sSo?
What has this got to do with Israeli war crimes?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:45 AM

Speaking of lies, the prof quoted at length in the op was implicated in faking a child's death for anti Israel propaganda.
"Ben-Dror Yemini this week described the role of Walden in the French forgery in his weekly column. Walden prepared a professional medical report [3] that backed the lies and fabrications of the French TV station and the attempt to "prove" the Arab propaganda version of the a-Dura shooting, based on the injuries to a-Dura's father. Only problem is that the good doctor never examined the a-Dura father and based his expert conclusions on some paperwork he got from a Jordanian office. A different Israeli doctor who DID examine the poppa, Dr. Yehuda David, discovered that all the injuries the father was claiming to have suffered when his son was pretending to be shot were in fact injuries from at least 8 years earlier "
http://www.debriefing.org/27123.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:09 AM

"You openly defend atrocities"
A lie Jim. No-one here would do that.
You never have and never could provide an example.


"You present no evidence of your own and you have consistently refused to link your articles."
Another lie. I told you I could and would substantiate anything, but having made the accusation you could not produce any statements needing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 06:13 AM

I beg to differ....history, dear boy, history.

Religion is a conveniently-holy wagon to which you hitch your dastardly cause. Now you know me. I hate religion. Why would I exonerate it so? Because I'm honest!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 05:43 AM

All lies again eh Keith? Now there's a new tactic!!
Did you send me instructions - must have been one I deleted when I decided I wasn't going to put up with being stalked.
Meanwhile back to the Shin Beth boyos
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:59 AM

BTW well done for learning to do links yourself.
I am glad my instructions you requested were helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:52 AM

It is a fact that Israel has been accused by "eye witnesses" of committing crimes that never happened.
Deny that Jim?
Israel's enemies would not have to create crimes if there were real ones.
"..... - all proven beyond doubt,"
Not.
" all denied out of hand. "
Not by us. We may have given Israel's side of the story. What objection could you have to that?
I have also pointed out that no free and well informed country believes all that stuff, including yours Jim.

"You openly defend atrocities"
A lie Jim. No-one here would do that.
Why must you lie about us?

"You present no evidence of your own and you have consistently refused to link your articles."
Another lie. I told you I could and would substantiate anything.
You can always Google text anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:39 AM

"We have questioned the authenticity of alleged crimes"
By "we" I assume you are referring to the tiny handful of pro-Zionist fanatics who post here.
You have actually "questioned" nothing, you have dismissed every single piece of evidence that doesn't show Israel's terrorist regime as shining angels out of hand as "lies", "anti-Israeli", anti- Semitic".... massacres, ethnic cleansing, racism and bigotry, creating an apartheid state, using chemical weapons, targetting civilians, destroying homes, driivinf people off their land to create illegal settlements..... - all proven beyond doubt, all denied out of hand.
You openly defend atrocities by pointing to the behavior of other states as if that had the slightest bearing on what Israel does and has been shown to have done since its foundation.
You present no evidence of your own and you have consistently refused to link your articles.
You have nothing to say and you dominate these threads by not saying it - put up or shut up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 02:49 AM

It is moronic in the extreme to attempt to excuse Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses by pointing to other states and claiming that they are worse

No-one here has ever done that Jim, as I keep telling you.
We have questioned the authenticity of alleged crimes, and we have asked why Israel is always singled out and the worse crimes of neighbours always ignored.

I wonder how fanatics are handling the idea that Israel does not even have the mythical right to a homeland in Palestine and that it is all – well, a myth.
No myths.
Israel was created by UN.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:38 PM

"Religion has got nothing to do with this"

I beg to differ....history, dear boy, history.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:16 PM

Religion has got nothing to do with this, despite what justifiers on both sides might like to claim. It's the usual, good old-fashioned imperialism and racism. No value judgements, except to say that the dominant parties are always better at the racism and imperialism. History, dear boy, history.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:52 PM

"if it wasn't for the politicians in-between"

For once something I can agree with you on - if it was up to the people, on both sides, I am sure there would have been peace long ago if, as you said "it wasn't for the politicians in-between", to which I will add and the religious extremists on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:38 PM

"Israelis and Palestinians Plant Olive Trees Together For Peace"
Very heartening clip Bobad - "if it wasn't for the politicians in-between", as the song nearly says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:27 PM

"And tell me Billy, why have you been hitting people again?"

"It is because I was taught that these people are descended from apes and pigs and that we must kill them wherever they are found."

"Good for you then Billy, you are doing as you are taught, carry on then."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:03 PM

"Miss, Billy has been hitting me again!"

"Come here, Billy. Have you been hitting people again?"

"Yes Miss, but when I hit people I do it with my fists. When Jimmy and Johnny hit people, they do it with sticks!"

"Ah, that's fine then, Billy. Off you go and play!"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:59 PM

Israelis and Palestinians Plant Olive Trees Together For Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:27 PM

Whoops - doesn't appear to be working - try again
Jim Carroll

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:14 PM

It is moronic in the extreme to attempt to excuse Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses by pointing to other states and claiming that they are worse – even if it were true, such a claim would only show that Israel is yet another terrorist state with contempt for human rights and life.
In this case of course it is not true – no other state today has Israel's long running and persistent war crimes and human rights abuses record.
To single out Egypt, after having used that extremist and beleaguered regime as a defence for flooding the supply tunnels in preference to the opinion of present opposition to that regime's claims to the contrary is doubly moronic. There is no argument that the present Egyptian regime is a despotic and undemocratic one – they are the same bunch of thugs whose word was offered as justification for closing the tunnels rather than that of the present opposition, and to describe it as being "worse than Israel" is having ones cake and eating it somewhat.   
Israel's human rights abuses and war crimes are far too well known and documented to be denied; you need go no further than its long and growing list of abuses of United Nations resolutions, the consequences of which they have been persistently protected from by an equally long list of U.S. vetoes - not to mention the history of massacres and atrocities that have been reported on in the world press, including Israel's own.
We've had a long spell here of 'atrocity denial' with the individual concerned not even bothering his arse to produce either evidence to his claims or even links to his very selective quotes. Not good enough if he wants to join the 'let's re-write history club – even David Irving made an effort by actually manufacturing his 'facts' before he presented them as a historical truth.
Recently six more expert witnesses have been added to the list of those speaking out against the Israeli regime – the six former heads of Shin Beth, Israel's security organisation. Their agreement to be interviewed publicly throws open Israel's behaviour for all to see.
They all admitted freely the methods that were used to suppress opposition to the Israeli State and pleaded that there was no other choice to their actions and in fairness their case comes over as that they honestly believed that – judge for yourselves, go and see 'The Gatekeepers' – I saw it on Wednesday and it's stunning in its implications.
The final straw for them appears to have been the murder of Yitzhak Rabin; who, after a vicious campaign of mass rallies by ultra-extremist Rabbis calling for his removal, was 'removed' permanently by a young Zionist extremist – Rabin's crime – along with President Clinton he attempted to negotiate a peace with the Arabs. There was no effort made to bring those who deliberately incited his murder to justice.
The Shin Beth men all said there could be no peace in Israel without compromise on both sides and that the Israeli politicians had betrayed Israel by refusing to even consider negotiating such a peace and instead had opted for an all-out military solution aimed at all Palestinians.
Their main concern now is what Israel has now become.
The oldest (and most hard-line in defending past actions) of the Shin Beth men compared present day Israel as being indistinguishable in all but the enormity from Nazi Germany. He actually stopped in the middle of a sentence describing it as Fascist, saying it was too distressing to give voice to such a thought.
There you go Keith – a group of Israeli supporters who have devoted their lives to securing Israel's future – what do you reckon – misled, naive, anti-Semites or simply anti-Israeli liars making it all up?
I wonder how fanatics are handling the idea that Israel does not even have the mythical right to a homeland in Palestine and that it is all – well, a myth.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:51 PM

Please...please...PLEASE, folks...on ALL sides..give us a summary and a LINK, not a huge copy & paste.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:29 PM

He is entitled to his opinions, and no-one can stop Stringsinger filling our screens with them.

"You should know that in Sinai there are concentration camps that would not shame the Nazis. The refugees are held there for weeks, sometimes months, and subjected to hellish torture in order to extort money from their families in Sudan or Eritrea. We find people with burn marks and other signs of abuse; people who have been starved to the extreme; women who were raped and became pregnant and then need an abortion.

It is horrific. The Egyptian authorities have no access to them and also have no motivation [to deal with the problem]. The Bedouin do as they please"

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.

"When Hamas seized control in the Gaza Strip, they started to harass Fatah people in one of the most barbaric ways imaginable: by kneecapping them. We received requests from Gaza to treat wounded people who were in danger of losing their legs."

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.
And, they hate Jews more even than they hated those Palestinians.

"Happily, there have been no exploding buses and terrorist attacks lately, but that casts a veil over the fact that we are still sitting on a powder keg. In regard to the Palestinians, all our fondest dreams of a decade ago have come true: for there to be rational, serious people in their leadership, for the terrorism to stop."

Maybe the bus bombs stopped because they wanted peace, but they only stopped when the wall was built.
That seems the more likely reason.

Stringsinger, your paste job reminds us that Israel is surrounded by cruel and merciless killers, and has every reason to fear being at their mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:22 PM

Hamas rebuffs Arabs for softening Israeli-Palestinian peace plan

By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA | Fri May 3, 2013 1:39pm EDT

(Reuters) - Islamist Hamas's leader in the Gaza Strip on Friday rejected a revised Middle East peace initiative put forward by the Arab League, saying outsiders could not decide the fate of the Palestinians.

In meetings this week in Washington, Arab states appeared to soften their 2002 peace plan, acknowledging that Israelis and Palestinians may have to swap land in any eventual peace deal.

The United States and the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank praised the move. But speaking to hundreds of worshippers in a Gaza mosque, senior Hamas official Ismail Haniyeh said it was a concession that other Arabs were not authorized to make.

"The so-called new Arab initiative is rejected by our people, by our nation and no one can accept it," said Haniyeh, prime minister of the Hamas government in the coastal enclave.

"The initiative contains numerous dangers to our people in the occupied land of 1967, 1948 and to our people in exile."

He was referring to the partition of British-mandate Palestine in 1948 when the United Nations voted to divide the territory into a Jewish state and an Arab state, and to the 1967 war when Israel captured the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.

Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist and claims all the territory between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river as rightfully Palestinian. It never accepted the Arab plan which was first presented in 2002.

RARE SPAT

The modified version was announced by Qatar's prime minister on Monday and Haniyeh's comments represented a rare public disagreement between Hamas and one of its main supporters.

The rich Gulf state has pledged over $400 million to fund housing projects in the Gaza Strip, which Hamas seized from the rival Palestinian Fatah faction in a brief civil war in 2007.

"To those who speak of land swaps we say: Palestine is not a property, it is not for sale, not for a swap and cannot be traded," Haniyeh said.

Haniyeh said the rival Palestinian Authority, headed by Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, was to blame for inspiring the softer Arab position because it accepted the need for land swaps with Israel.

Israel rejected the Arab peace plan when it was proposed 11 years ago. Israeli officials gave a cautious welcome to the new suggestions, but the government still objects to key points, including the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees and the creation of a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is seeking to revive direct peace talks that broke down in 2010 over the issue of Jewish settlement building in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

On Tuesday, he hailed the Arab League announcement as "a very big step forward."

However, any peace moves will have to confront the fractured Palestinian political landscape with Abbas holding sway over parts of the West Bank and Hamas firmly entrenched in Gaza. Repeated attempts by the two sides to secure a political reunification of the two territories have failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:58 PM

As it stands, any hope for a Palestinian state is dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:59 AM

I hope not, Don T. The world needs more people to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:38 AM

What a pity that there aren't many more with the courage to speak out, String, but it won't be long before this is swamped with comment from the usual bunch, calling him a liar and an antisemitic traitor.

Don T.

Subject: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:11 AM

Here's the text which would ordinarily ask for subscription costs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A different kind of Israeli: Prof. Raphi Walden on why the Jewish people stopped caring

Walden, co-chairperson of Physicians for Human Rights, says that Israeli leaders cynically exploit our fears in order to stay in power. Still, he has not lost hope for peace.

By Ayelett Shani |
Haaretz: Apr.25, 2013
We are meeting on Holocaust Remembrance Day. I know that you have an extraordinary Holocaust-related story.

I was born in France. During the war, my family and I resided in a small village under an assumed identity and with false papers. We were certain no one knew. One day, a neighbor came running over and told us, "Be careful, the Germans are coming." And then we discovered that everyone knew.

They knew and said nothing.

Yes. I have just come from the ceremony at the hospital, where I told that story. On the way, I heard Moshe Arens being asked on the radio what the lesson of the Holocaust is. He replied, "The lesson is that we have to be strong." I say the lesson of the Holocaust that we have to be strong and firm has already been internalized. The true lesson is that we must be compassionate and attentive, as we expected the Gentiles to be compassionate toward us, but found that this was not the case.

The Holocaust taught your family compassion and solidarity. Those values were implanted in you.

They were implanted in me, but this matter is not confined to my personal story. These are Jewish values. Obligation to strangers is mentioned 36 times in the Torah, far more times than Shabbat observance, keeping kosher and the like. Yet you see what is happening today, when people who declare themselves to be the keepers of the "embers" of Judaism are so fundamentally opposed to Jewish humanism. That saddens me very much.

What happened to Jewish humanism? Where did it vanish to?

Jewish humanism became self-defensive. We are still behaving here as though we were in a Diaspora shtetl, and have to beware the goyim who are out to attack us. Hence the emphasis on force, power, toughness.

How much weight do you think governmental rhetoric has in this game? One of today's headlines is: "Netanyahu: Never again a Holocaust, I promise."

I think that is a twisted use of the Holocaust. Like frightening us with all kinds of Iranian threats, or by warning that a million Africans will invade Israel − this is actually a primitive method to keep the masses of the people of Israel in a state of constant fear: If they do not heed the strong leader, a second Holocaust will befall us. The leadership assiduously cultivates, maintains and preserves this Holocaust neurosis, because it is its device for staying in power.

Is it a right-wing device?

It is unequivocally a right-wing device.

Your detractors will say that you are representing the left and living in a bubble with them. Are you sure Israel is in such a strong position?

Stronger than most Western countries. And even the threats that do exist against us do not justify the Holocaust fear that hangs over us like a Damoclean sword. That is intimidation. I would say that it is a cynical exploitation of the fears that nest in everyone. Instead of a sagacious leader showing the way, our leaders nourish these fears.

Like a kind of opium for the masses.

There is no easier way to unite the masses than by depicting an enemy who is out to destroy us.

And one of the results of this approach, you believe, is our attitude toward the refugees.

In our work with the refugees in Physicians for Human Rights, we encounter dramatic human situations. You should know that in Sinai there are concentration camps that would not shame the Nazis. The refugees are held there for weeks, sometimes months, and subjected to hellish torture in order to extort money from their families in Sudan or Eritrea. We find people with burn marks and other signs of abuse; people who have been starved to the extreme; women who were raped and became pregnant and then need an abortion.

It is horrific. The Egyptian authorities have no access to them and also have no motivation [to deal with the problem]. The Bedouin do as they please with the Eritreans. It's an unfathomable situation.

Not so many years ago, people dressed in black with side curls and speaking a strange language knocked on doors and wanted to cross the border into Switzerland. They were turned back and ended their lives in Auschwitz. Where is Jewish compassion? How have we failed to learn that what was done to us, we must not do to others? It is so important for our leadership to strike a posture of force that compassion was simply erased.

That narrative of forcefulness has always existed here.

But now we are in a position to allow ourselves to be compassionate. We are strong enough to have compassion.

Physicians for Human Rights is like a prosthesis for the health establishment: you treat those whom the system ignores.

We treat a population that no one else deals with. They are people without status. The refugees are here, whether we like it or not. The National Health Law stipulates that people who are in critical condition must be treated. But what about people who suffer from chronic illnesses, such as diabetes, and don't have money to buy medicines? Or who need an operation?

We also have a problem of a poor population in this country, people who live on National Insurance allowances and have to decide between medicines and food. The situation is particularly dire for elderly people who have a long list of medicines because, even if they are cheap, it adds up to amounts which they cannot afford. We are here for them, and we also hold a public dialogue with the decision makers in these areas.

And also in regard to political issues.

Indeed. We fight the occupation fiercely and consider it the mother of all sins. We work both at the public level and the grass-roots level. Every Shabbat, a group of physicians and nurses goes to the territories.

A kind of mobile clinic.

Yes. We also take a mobile drugstore and distribute medicines free. The Palestinians are desperately poor. They have no industry and their labor market − Israel − is blocked to them.

How are you received there?

With great love. We arrive in a village or town and are usually met by the mayor or mukhtar. We exchange greetings, have a coffee and get to work. For the most part we set ourselves up in a school or a community center, and each of us treats patients in his specialty; there's a dermatologist, internist, orthopedist, etc.

We see about 400 patients on an average day − 400 people who, for the first time, encounter an Israeli in an experience that is not threatening or violent.

Most of their encounters with Israelis are with the soldier − whom I also pity, spending hours at a checkpoint in the heat − who arrests them. Or the settler who chops down their olive trees; or the Shin Bet security service man who pulls their father out of bed at two in the morning.

This is an opportunity for them to see a different Israeli. An Israeli with an outstretched hand. And because the 400 people have families and neighbors and friends, we touch the hearts of thousands of people. And even if we didn't change anything − and we make no pretense of changing the health situation in the West Bank, or even in a small village − we have succeeded in creating a small light at the end of the tunnel. We have performed an act of human solidarity.

The day ends with a big meal at the hosts' home in a wonderful atmosphere of jokes and joy, and we see how things could be.

But it must also be frustrating.

The truth is that we create this microcosm which, on the one hand, offers hope, but on the other produces a great deal of frustration. If only we could forgo the messianic longings of this extremist minority that is leading us to perdition.

I have met thousands of people in the 20 years in which I have been doing this. What we hear from all of them is that they want only to live in peace and raise their children. They recall nostalgically the period before the intifada, when they worked in Israel and invited their employers to family events. And when the money they made – which was, of course, the minimum wage – was like a treasure for them. With it they built homes and planted vineyards.

In those 20 years, have you ever encountered hostility?

Never.

Really?

Not even once. You remember the horrific [1994] murder perpetrated by Baruch Goldstein in the Tomb of the Patriarchs, right? He killed almost 30 people. We were scheduled to go to the territories on the following Shabbat, but we hesitated. The whole region was like a seething cauldron. In the end we decided to go. And even on that day, we were received with boundless warmth and love.

How do you cope with the authorities, such as the army?

There are all kinds of stories. When Hamas seized control in the Gaza Strip, they started to harass Fatah people in one of the most barbaric ways imaginable: by kneecapping them. We received requests from Gaza to treat wounded people who were in danger of losing their legs. The army viewed them as a security risk and refused to authorize the visit. Three requests were rejected, but with the fourth request we succeeded − somehow the mercy of the authorities was aroused. I operated on a young man. Later, he came for a follow-up check. He was walking on two feet. I looked at him and thought of the three whose requests were turned down and lost their legs.

The state is paying, and will pay, a steep price for its shortsightedness.

Of course. Take the story of the prisoner who died in jail [Maysara Abu Hamdiyeh]. He had been suffering from throat pains since August 2012. He was diagnosed with cancer in February 2013. He was hospitalized on March 30 and died on April 2. Here you have all the wrongs in the world and also all the stupidity in the world. Cancer is not a lightning bolt. Obviously he reached the hospital in serious condition, as he died three days later. And besides that, over and above the ethical and moral aspects, a little common sense is called for. If he had been discharged four or five days earlier, he would have died at home and all the riots in the territories would not have taken place.

Where is Jewish common sense? There are all kinds of dumb bureaucracies; there were holidays and the relevant committee couldn't be convened. A few phone calls could have been made and the grievously ill man discharged.

But that is more an example of the establishment's insensitivity, not human insensitivity.

Bureaucracy leads to cruelty, too. I served in the Paratroops. I held the rank of lieutenant colonel. I was badly wounded but refused to be discharged from the army. I fought in three wars, but Avigdor Lieberman called me an accomplice to terrorism.

How did you feel when he called you that?

I thought it was foolish to view someone who criticizes you as a troublemaker for the Jews.

It's a Bolshevik way of thinking.

Exactly. My criticism comes from love. I proved my love for the country and I continue to prove it. I am not some off-the-wall leftist living in a bubble.

That was the first time the criticism of you was voiced publicly. Have you had to cope with political pressures aimed at stopping or silencing the activity of your group?

No. There was the attempt in the last Knesset to restrict the activity of human rights organizations.

Was that the only time? Have you never been personally asked to stop, to lower the group's profile?

No. No such request was ever made to me. And when I speak to people in the defense establishment about Palestinian prisoners' hunger strikes, for example, they try to help them. If those people die in jail, there really will be an intifada here.

Do you call them personally?

Of course.

At what rank?

I can't tell you. But I call people in the defense establishment with whom I have personal ties to alert them.

When you examine the big picture of what you are doing, do you feel empowered or despairing?

I do not feel despair.

How do you explain that? You are exposed to so many systemic malfunctions and unfortunate stories.

Maybe it's because I see the relations that are created between people. When I come to a Palestinian village or meet a Palestinian physician, there's this instant click that occurs in the most natural way. There are nations between which there was a fundamental, deep grudge − the French and the Germans, for example. Yet look what is happening now. We do not have such deep residues. There are, of course, dead and wounded and bereaved families on both sides, but from what I have seen for the past 20 years, human ties are forged very easily, and those ties are a foundation. I also do not think the political problems are irresolvable.

But no one wants to solve them.

That is because we are being led by the nose by an extremist minority. Look at even the economic angle. We have here a market of 3.5 million Palestinians who are making every effort not to buy Israeli products. But if there were peace, we would have a paradise here. Instead of the dire poverty and the ghettos in south Tel Aviv, people could come and earn a dignified living in construction and go back home at the end of the day.

Do you really think there is a chance, that there is hope?

I am a tour guide by training. In the Paratroops I was a brigade medic in the Jordan Rift Valley. I have been all through the valley, and Judea and Samaria. I am connected to those places. I am not one of those leftists who says these places mean nothing to them. But for the sake of peace I am willing to make this sacrifice. It is a sacrifice, and I am emotionally ready to make the sacrifice. I understand that the messianic hilltop youth expect millions of Palestinians to disappear into thin air; but there is also a large part of the public that is indifferent as long as there is no sword at its throat.

Happily, there have been no exploding buses and terrorist attacks lately, but that casts a veil over the fact that we are still sitting on a powder keg. In regard to the Palestinians, all our fondest dreams of a decade ago have come true: for there to be rational, serious people in their leadership, for the terrorism to stop. Those were our conditions.

But instead of this putting the subject on the agenda, the exact opposite happened.

That is precisely the folly of our leadership, who are worried only about their current term in office. This is as good as it will get.

Are we becoming more racist?

Without a doubt.

To what do you attribute this?

To the psychological pressure that is being implemented from above − and here I accuse the authorities harshly. The interior minister and MKs make flagrantly racist remarks and everyone takes it in their stride. Imagine if some cabinet minister abroad were to talk about Jews the way [former Interior Minister] Eli Yishai talked about the Africans. We are growing more insular and ignoring human dignity.

How do you manage to stay optimistic?

It's because I think that, basically, we have a good nation and these others are deviations and not the mainstream. I don't think there is any other concentration of over five million people with these talents anywhere else on the planet. Not in Paris and not in New York and not in Los Angeles. In art, in painting, in sculpture, in science, in research, in technology, in startups. We are in third place in the world in terms of medical devices.

We are truly overflowing with talent. Except in politics, where we are hard up.