BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 08:21 AM

No I can't they are both hate merchants - Farage being slightly less articulate than Griffin
But thank you for an insight into your voting intentions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 08:22 AM

Abbas: No recognition of Israel as Jewish state
Associated Press By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH
March 7, 2014 2:04 PM

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said there is "no way" he will recognize Israel as a Jewish state and accept a Palestinian capital in just a portion of Israeli-annexed east Jerusalem, rebuffing what Palestinians fear will be key elements of a U.S. peace proposal.

Abbas' comments signaled that the gaps between him and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu remain wide after seven months of mediation efforts by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry.

Abbas, whose remarks were published Friday by the Palestinian news agency WAFA, said he withstood international pressure in the past, when he sought U.N. recognition of a state of Palestine over Washington's objections.

Speaking to youth activists of his Fatah party, he suggested he would stand firm again, particularly over the demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

"They are pressing and saying, 'No peace without the Jewish state,'" he said, though not spelling out who is applying the pressure. "There is no way. We will not accept."

Netanyahu gave interviews to Israeli TV stations, excerpts of which were broadcast Friday night.

"I am ready to proceed, I am ready to reach the end of the conflict, but it must be the end of the conflict," Netanyahu told Channel 10 TV. "We won't allow the establishment of a Palestinian state so that it will continue the conflict, so it needs to recognize the state of the Jews just like they are demanding from us that we recognize the state of the Palestinians."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:23 AM

""They are pressing and saying, 'No peace without the Jewish state,'" he said, though not spelling out who is applying the pressure. "There is no way. We will not accept.""
More or less what the Israelis have been saying and doing right from the beginning
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM

Sorry, there is no solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict The harsh and ugly truth is that some conflicts really are intractable

By Damon Linker | 6:08am ET

So John Kerry's frantic drive to settle the nearly seven-decade-long clash between the Israelis and Palestinians has come to nothing. Everyone who cares about Israeli security and the suffering of the Palestinians wished him well in his efforts, just as everyone knowledgeable about the conflict understood that those efforts would fail.

And yet surprisingly few on either side have drawn the proper conclusion — which is that, for now at least, there simply is no solution to the conflict.

It's easy enough to see why we're so reluctant to accept this harsh and ugly truth.

As inveterate optimists, Americans have a hard time accepting tragedy. We like to believe that any problem can be fixed with enough gumption and good intentions. We're even more inclined to believe it in the case of Israel and the Palestinians because our steadfast support of Israel over the decades has deeply implicated us in the intricate web of injustices that plague the region.

But our desire to find a way out of the impasse doesn't mean that one exists. Not every puzzle has a solution. Not every conflict can be resolved.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has had an intractable quality from the beginning: Two peoples with competing, exclusivist claims to one small parcel of land. That's one important reason why every attempt to broker a lasting peace agreement over the past 66 years has fallen to pieces in the end — because the end is unreachable.

For one thing, each group insists on making Jerusalem its capital city and claims to be unwilling to accept anything short of that. Yes, it's at least possible that this tension could be finessed by some kind of dual-sovereignty agreement. But there's no finessing this: The Israeli government demands that the Palestinians recognize Israel as the historic homeland of the Jewish people (meaning it will not be permitted to become a binational state), while the Palestinians insist on a "right of return" to land within Israeli territory, which would instantly transform it into a binational state — and one in which Jews make up a minority of the population.

That, my friends, is the very definition of an intractable conflict.

The only way out of such a conflict is for the incentives, priorities, and preferences of the parties to change, making accommodation more likely. But the unfortunate fact is that in recent years the parties have, if anything, been moving even further apart.

The Israeli side feels it got badly burned by the breakdown of negotiations at the Taba Summit in January 2001, and then by the Second Intifada that began soon afterward, unleashing deadly waves of suicide bombings throughout the country. Those bombings stopped not because of negotiations, but because the border fence constructed by the Israeli government greatly increased the difficulty of launching terrorist attacks inside of Israel from the occupied territories. The lesson Israel learned from this experience is that security can only be won through decisive unilateral action.

Unilateral action taught the Israelis a different and even bleaker lesson in Gaza. Dismantle settlements, pull back from occupation, and allow Palestinians to decide their own fate — and they will immediately elect an organization (Hamas) dedicated to annihilating the Jewish state. Israel now lives with a hostile power on its southern border that periodically rains down missiles on Israeli towns.

Add to that the anti-Israel Hezbollah faction (and Iranian proxy) in Lebanon to the north; the Syrian civil war, which pits the staunchly antagonistic government of Bashar al-Assad against even more radical Islamists, to the northeast; an unstable and intermittently hostile Egypt to the southwest; and of course the persistent threat of a nuclear Iran a thousand miles to the east — and one can begin to understand why Israel feels more surrounded and vulnerable than ever. The last thing it will do in such circumstances is undertake another experiment in withdrawal from the modest buffer zone of the West Bank on its militarily vulnerable eastern flank.

Attitudes on the Palestinian side have grown similarly intransigent. After having their hopes raised and dashed so many times, after decades of military occupation and ever-expanding settlement building on land that will ostensibly be part of any independent state, it's no wonder that popular support for a two-state solution is waning among the Palestinian people.

Then there's the fact that recent events seem to have shown the Palestinians that time is on their side. As the years have gone by without a peace deal and the population of the West Bank has increased, the world's outrage at the Israeli occupation and disenfranchisement of the Palestinians has only grown. In the past few years, this indignation has inspired the U.N. and other international bodies to begin recognizing, over strenuous Israeli (and American) objections, occupied Palestine as an independent state. This is an effort that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has now begun to pursue more actively than ever.

Not that such recognition will give many additional rights to the people living in the occupied West Bank. But that, in fact, is the point: To demonstrate to worldwide public opinion that the Palestinians have been consigned by the Israelis to live out their days in impoverished Bantustans where they are denied rudimentary rights to self-determination. The Palestinians hope that a growing chorus of global condemnation will eventually drive Israel either to pull back from the West Bank, thereby allowing the establishment of a fully independent Palestinian state, or to grant full political rights within Israel to the Palestinian people — a move that would turn Israel into a binational state.

Neither has any chance of happening.

Which means that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has reached a condition that the ancient Greek philosophers would have described with the term "aporia" — meaning "to be at a loss" or "impassable." There is no peace process. No way forward. This might change down the road. But for now it is our lamentable but unsurpassable reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM

Post away and ignore what's happening - that seems to be the way of your world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 11:53 AM

Full of admiration, Jim, at your astonishing perspicacity in extrapolating my voting intentions, when I don't even know myself what they might be when the election comes -- or even if I shall still be around to exercise them if I do decide: 82 in a month's time, you know.

Still ~~ play your games, my dear!

Best
~M~

Still think it an idiocy to equate those two just coz they're both of the right-ish tendency. If you'd been around then, I suppose you wouldn't have been able to tell Ulyanov from Bronstein, either!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM

BTW ~~ re both being "hate-merchants": just name a politician whom you would call a "love-merchant", eh? Talk about moronic phrase-making...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 12:03 PM

Gee, Bruce, Linker is saying that the Isreali Gov't gang is being just as big dickheads, & posibly bigger, as the Palestinians.

Do you actually agree with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 12:10 PM

"just name a politician whom you would call a "love-merchant", eh?"
Sorry - miss your point entirely - "hate merchant" is, as far as I am aware, a pretty common phrase to describe racists, sectarians and bigots - not of my making whatever - would claim to be so imaginative
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 12:35 PM

Oh! Right; thank you, Jim. Not a phrase I've come across in that particular usage; I suppose becoz I don't read that sort of press.

Seems to me a phrase quite well adapted for Griffin, but can't see where it fits that other fella whatevs. But don't propose to get het up about the question, which is, at best, of slightly less than marginal interest to me.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM

"I don't read that sort of press."
It's not a particularly 'press' saying as far as I recall
I think its pretty generally applied to anti gays and Muslim extremists with equal vehemence (your own man, Wilfred (think that's his name - could be wrong) used it to describe the latter nor so long ago.
I'm afraid I can't see a great deal of difference between Griffin and 'Farrago' - jackels out of the same game preserve as far as I'm concerned
Can't imagine why someone should vote for a single-policy politician anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 01:37 PM

What 'own man', Jim? No idea whom you are refg to. Depends what the 'single issue' is. I should be much in favour of anything that got us out of this fatuous enslavement to that organisation run exclusively in their own interests by our traditional enemies, the Frogs & the Krauts, whose only point of agreement that I can see is a shared hatred of us. God knows how we ever got caught up with that lot. That loony Heath, wasn't it? Caught us up in a posture to be patronised and belittled by that ungratefullest little shit in the history of mankind, de Gaulle. So can see perhaps some remote hope in Farage's campaign; but whether worth bothering to vote, esp at my age when I'm unlikely to be personally involved in anything for much longer & have never given too much thought to posterity who will doubtless be competent to mind their own affairs...

Still can't see any point in bracketing two people with pretty well no policy overlaps just because they are on broadly the same end of the left-right continuum; but political analysis has never been much of a thing of mine.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 07:15 PM

There seem to be two heated arguments going on in the same thread. A bit confusing. After all the dividing lines on the two issues are liable to be completely at odds. A passionate supporter of Palestinian rights might be wholly opposed to the EU, or enthusiastically in favour of it.

Wouldn't a brief ceasefire while things got redeployed into separate threads make sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 03:29 AM

Sorry Mike - missed a bit - I was referring to Eric Pickles statement on Muslim clerics - he figures largely (in every sense) in the present government, doesn't he?
I've watched Farrago several times and I have gained an impression, that his policy - where he has one, on both immigration and the E.U., are interlinked, and are Xenophobically presented.
His sole contribution to life today appears to be to make the lives of Paul Merton and Ian Hislop a little easier - he would be in line for a Grammy if 'Spitting Image' were still going - 'to absent friends'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 05:34 AM

A passionate supporter of Palestinian rights might be wholly opposed to the EU,

Yes. Tony Benn for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 05:59 AM

Israelis blame Jews for continuing disruption of peace talks - official
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Independent
MIDDLE EAST PEACE PROCESS: US SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY FACES 'ANTI-SEMITIC' CLAIMS FOR BLAMING FAILING OF TALKS ON ISRAEL
BEN LYNFIELD JERUSALEM WEDNESDAY 09 APRIL 2014
Stung by comments from US Secretary of State John Kerry that placed most of the blame for the deterioration in the Middle East peace process on Israel, Israeli leaders dismissed them as biased at best, and anti-Semitic at worst.
Insisting that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was the one responsible for the current impasse, deputy foreign minister Zeev Elkin told state-run Israel Radio: "Whoever thought there was a connection between reality and the claims of the international community can be disappointed".
"We have experience that this connection doesn't always exist and that political correctness causes the blame to be apportioned equally or worse."
In the view of Mr Elkin, from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, those who have "eyes to see and know the details" understand that Mr Abbas is to blame and was looking for a way to "escape" negotiations that he never wanted.
David Rotem, another Israeli politician, told The Independent that being blamed by Mr Kerry was to be expected. "The Jews are always found guilty of all the problems in the world," he said. "Israel is not guilty of anything."
Mr Rotem added that he was concerned that Mr Kerry's remarks would foreshadow American pressure on Israel to make concessions to the Palestinians to overcome the impasse.
Last week the peace process suddenly disintegrated with Mr Abbas's application to join 15 UN treaties and conventions as a state party – a step viewed by Israel as incompatible with the talks.
Senior Palestinians said the move was taken in response to Israel's failure to release a final batch of Palestinian prisoners as part of releases it committed to before negotiations resumed in July.
Mr Kerry, making an appearance before senators on Tuesday, traced the crisis to Israel's failure to release the prisoners.
"The prisoners were not released by Israel on the day they were supposed to be released and then another day passed and another day and then 700 [settlement] units were approved in Jerusalem and then poof – that was sort of the moment," he said.
He also termed Mr Abbas's subsequent decision to apply to join international organisations "unhelpful".
The State Department later tried to soften the impression that Mr Kerry was blaming Israel mostly, with spokeswoman Jen Psaki stressing that both sides had taken unhelpful steps.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:34 AM

Ah: gotcha, Jim. Wilfred Pickles was someone else, from my far-off youth; Northern comic & wartime newsreader, hosted that 'Have A Go' programme [dire schoolboy joke told me by my Cousin Martin at the time: 'Have you heard about Wilfred Pickles terrible accident? Fell out of bed having a go!' LoL]. Honestly hadn't been aware of what old Fatso MP has been saying about Islam. He is certainly not 'my man' in any sense; just a sizeable hole-in-the-air to me.

I don't deny that Farage comes across as somewhat xenophobic in his desire for UK Independence. Goes with the territory, pretty obviously. But not a million miles from the views of many, inc utap mine, in that I have been, not Eurosceptic [an evasive get-out of a term IMO!], but Europhobic right from the get-go. Farage a very different sort of organism from Griffin, surely?, & hardly to be bracketed with him.

But there is some force to the objection raised just above that this a a thread about the mid-East, & all this EU stuff may be a drift too far. Shall we leave this theme now, don't you think?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:48 AM

"The accompanying and equally great injustice allegedly suffered by the Palestinians is that they have been denied a state of their own. But this hardly qualifies as unique, given that dozens of other ethnic groups—the Kurds being the most prominent—are in the same boat.

In any event, this "injustice" is also self-inflicted, since three times in the past 15 years the Palestinians have refused offers of a state on most of the territory taken by Israel in 1967 and with Jerusalem as its capital. They have justified these refusals by one pretext or another, but as anyone willing to look can see, what they truly want is not a state of their own living side by side with Israel but a state that replaces Israel altogether.

With this we come to the main reason I believe that the Palestinians do not deserve any sympathy, let alone the astonishing degree of it they do receive (and not least from many of my fellow Jews). It is that ever since the day of Israel's birth in 1948, they have never ceased declaring that their goal is to wipe it off the map. In all other contexts, this would be called by its rightful name of genocide and condemned by all decent people. Yet—here we go topsy-turvy again—for any and every step Israel takes to defend itself against so shamelessly evil an intent, it is the Israelis who are obsessively condemned at the U.N. and by the increasingly strident propagators of what calls itself "anti-Zionism" but is also increasingly indistinguishable from anti-Semitism.

Nor, alas, is it only the leaders of the Palestinians who harbor this evil intent. As revealed by poll after poll, as well as by the elections that led the way for Hamas to take power in Gaza, a decisive majority of the Palestinian people does so as well. No doubt this is the fruit of relentless indoctrination from above, but the damage has been done, and the end result is what it is.

Indeed, the best that can be said of both Palestinian leaders and led is that many of them no longer imagine—as did Gamal Abdel Nasser, the former president of Egypt—that they have the power to drive the Jews of Israel into the sea. Therefore they are now willing to give up pursuing the goal of genocide and to settle for the more modest objective of politicide—that is, to get rid of the Jewish state by transforming it, through various "peaceful" means like the "right of return," into a state with a Palestinian majority."

from
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304640104579487444112949138?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM

More from above:

"As for the monumental injustice supposedly done to the Palestinians, it consists largely of losing territory in the war they themselves provoked in 1967, and the refusal of their demand that every inch of it be returned to them by the Israeli victors in that war. Such demands have always been known and universally denounced as revanchism or irredentism, most recently over the Russian seizure of Crimea. But where Israel is concerned, everything goes topsy-turvy, so that Palestinian irredentism is universally supported."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:17 AM

You certainly pick your allies Brucie
Jim Carroll

Norman Podhoretz – "is an American neoconservative pundit and writer for Commentary"

Vietnam
In an editorial to the Wall Street Journal on the sixth anniversary of the September 11 attacks, Podhoretz contends that the retreat from Iraq should not be similar to the retreat from Vietnam. He argues that when the U.S. withdrew from Vietnam, it sacrificed its national honor.[20]
In 1982, James Fallows wrote a review of Podhoretz's book, Why We Were in Vietnam, for the New York Times, in which he accuses Podhoretz of "changing his views" and "self-righteousness" on the subject of Vietnam, noting that in 1971 Podhoretz wrote that he would "prefer just such an American defeat to a 'Vietnamization' of the war."[21]
A larger quote from Why We Were in Vietnam which was included in the review is as follows:
"As one who has never believed that anything good would ever come for us or for the world from an unambiguous American defeat, I now find myself – and here is the main source of my own embarrassment in writing about Vietnam – unhappily moving to the side of those who would prefer just such an American defeat to a 'Vietnamization' of the war which calls for the indefinite and unlimited bombardment by American pilots in American planes of every country in that already devastated region."

George W. Bush
Podhoretz has praised Bush, saying "George W. Bush (is) a man who knows evil when he sees it and who has demonstrated an unfailingly courageous willingness to endure vilification and contumely in setting his face against it." He goes on to claim that Bush has been "battered more mercilessly and with less justification than any other [president] in living memory."[15][19]

Sarah Palin
In a Wall Street Journal editorial titled "In Defense of Sarah Palin," Podhoretz wrote, "I hereby declare that I would rather be ruled by the Tea Party than by the Democratic Party, and I would rather have Sarah Palin sitting in the Oval Office than Barack Obama.[24]

Commentary Magazine
Commentary is a monthly American magazine on politics, Judaism, social and cultural issues. It was founded by the American Jewish Committee in 1945. Besides its strong coverage of cultural issues, it provided a strong voice for the anti-Stalinist left. By 1960 its editor was Norman Podhoretz, originally a mainstream liberal Democrat. He and his magazine moved to the right in the 1970s and 1980s.[1] Benjamin Balint describes it as the "Contentious Magazine That Transformed the Jewish Left Into the Neoconservative Right".[2] Historian Richard Pells says that "no other journal of the past half century has been so consistently influential, or so central to the major debates that have transformed the political and intellectual life of the United States."[3]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:31 AM

So, Jim?

YOU have been quoting and supporting people who have called for the destruction of an entire people- but I guess genocide is OK if it is by YOUR friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM

And what part of this do you object to???


"Besides its strong coverage of cultural issues, it provided a strong voice for the anti-Stalinist left. By 1960 its editor was Norman Podhoretz, originally a mainstream liberal Democrat. He and his magazine moved to the right in the 1970s and 1980s.[1] Benjamin Balint describes it as the "Contentious Magazine That Transformed the Jewish Left Into the Neoconservative Right".[2] Historian Richard Pells says that "no other journal of the past half century has been so consistently influential, or so central to the major debates that have transformed the political and intellectual life of the United States."[3]"


I guess the idea of DEBATE, where BOTH sides are present, is foreign to your way of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM

And, as I have come to expect from you, you attack the PERSON making statements of fact rather than address the FACTS that are presented.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:02 AM

Gee, Bruce, Linker [ 09 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM ] is saying that the Isreali Gov't gang is being just as big dickheads, & posibly bigger, as the Palestinians. Do you actually agree with that?

But this hardly qualifies as unique, given that dozens of other ethnic groups...

Didn't your mom ever explain to you that just becuse Johnny was doing something that didn't make it OK for you to do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:14 AM

So, Greg,

You are STILL supporting genocide, as well as your racism??


"With this we come to the main reason I believe that the Palestinians do not deserve any sympathy, let alone the astonishing degree of it they do receive (and not least from many of my fellow Jews). It is that ever since the day of Israel's birth in 1948, they have never ceased declaring that their goal is to wipe it off the map. In all other contexts, this would be called by its rightful name of genocide and condemned by all decent people. Yet—here we go topsy-turvy again—for any and every step Israel takes to defend itself against so shamelessly evil an intent, it is the Israelis who are obsessively condemned at the U.N. and by the increasingly strident propagators of what calls itself "anti-Zionism" but is also increasingly indistinguishable from anti-Semitism."

Hamas STILL hard the DESTRUCTION of Israel in it's policies.


I'll keep you and Jimmy in the "Pro-Genocide" group.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM

"And, as I have come to expect from you, you attack the PERSON making statements of fact rather than address the FACTS that are presented."
No facts - just defensive opinions from an ultra-right pro-Israeli journalist who has a half-century reputation for same
Why wouldn't he support the Israeli regime - that's where his politics are?
"I'll keep you and Jimmy in the "Pro-Genocide" group."
And virtually everybody else on this forum, I take it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:44 AM

No, just those that apply one standard to Israel and another to the Paletinians.


So, you refuse to discuss any fact that is supported by those you disagree with?


If ++I++ were to do that, you would have said absolutely nothing on this entire thread….


Gee, maybe that IS the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:53 AM

from the Hamas Charter

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.""


"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who can presume to speak for all Islamic generations to the Day of Resurrection?

This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Sharia (law), and the same goes for all lands conquered by Muslims by force, during the times of (Islamic) conquests, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.

It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Muslims, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Muslims, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit, but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine , is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM

When Billy does it that gets thousands of posts on Mudcat, when Johnny does it that gets none. The reason for that is self evident.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM

Why wouldn't he support the Israeli regime - that's where his politics are?


Are you saying that the only acceptable facts to you are those that are presented by those you agree with? SOME of us look at ALL the presented facts, and try to decide what is the truth based on ALL available information rather than just on what we agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:45 AM

So, Greg, You are STILL supporting genocide, as well as your racism??

Bullshit from BullhitBruce. Imagine my surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:48 AM

Greggie boy,

Still looking for the duct tape, for your hamsters?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM

"Are you saying that the only acceptable facts to you are those that are presented by those you agree with?"
I am saying that all opinions - which is what is being offered here - are to be judged by the individual who offers them
In this this case a right-wing, head-banging Tea party-goer.
These guys come up with a defence before they've committed an atrocity - as do you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:04 PM

Oh, and by the way, Bruce, Linker [ Yopur 09 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM post] is saying that the Isreali Gov't gang is being just as big dickheads, & posibly bigger, as the Palestinians. Do you actually agree with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM

"I am saying that all opinions - which is what is being offered here - are to be judged by the individual who offers them '

1. I was talking about your ignoring the FACTS presented.

2. Your statement means that the rest of us can ignore all posts by you and GenocideGreg, the terror of all small rodents.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:42 PM

Palestinians, marginalized, oppressed, ignored, and undergoing incredible suffering have every right to object to Israel's "terms" for a vacuous peace process.

The idea that they want to replace Israel with a land of their own is garbage.

What they want is parity, equality with Israel and a right to live as free people, the evidence being that the majority of Palestinians are non-violent resisters, only a handful of rocket launchers compared to the mega-weapons assault of Israel.

Syria, Saudi Arabia and Israel are forms of dictatorships that reject any compromise that
suggest a democratic solution or genuine peace process.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:45 PM

To quote Jim:

"I am saying that all opinions - which is what is being offered here - are to be judged by the individual who offers them "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 01:04 PM

"I am saying that all opinions - which is what is being offered here - are to be judged by the individual who offers them "
So - what's wrong with that?
I would never have asked scum like Mosely or Le Pen their opinion on the Jews - I know what they would have said.
The facts speak for themselves - Israel has made clear from day one that the only terms they will accept are those that allow them to continue building settlements on disputed territories
The harassment has not ceased since the beginning and numerous acts of agression have brought the talks to a halt.
The stage has been reached now that even Israel's most influential ally, the U.S. feels itself unable to support - and have become "Antisemitic" (according to those Antisemites who attribute Israeli terrorist policy to "the Jews" - a move in the right direction at last
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 01:30 PM

YO BRUCE!!! WAKE UP!!

Linker [ Your 09 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM post] is saying that the Isreali Gov't gang is being just as big dickheads, & posibly bigger, as the Palestinians. Do you actually agree with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 14 - 10:57 AM

"Zahar also disclosed that Hamas is planning to take advantage of the unity deal to move its terror attacks against Israel to the West Bank. Worse, he declared that after its men set foot in the West Bank, Hamas will target Palestinians who "collaborate" with Israel. "Who said that those who are conducting security coordination with Israel would remain forever?" he asked, referring to the Fatah-dominated security forces in the West Bank.

Zahar, who also said that Hamas would pursue the fight against Israel until the "liberation of all Palestine," is in fact sending a warning message to the Western-funded Palestinian Authority security forces in the West Bank. "We believe in what was mentioned in the Quran: that Palestine, all of Palestine, will be liberated," he added. "The Israeli entity should expect more from Hamas after our rockets reached Tel Aviv."

Hamas: We'll Use Unity Accord To Move Terrorism To West Bank

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 14 - 10:35 AM

MONTREAL — Palestinian doctor Wafiq Othman told a Montreal audience he went to Israel with great trepidation, unsure he could ever trust his Israeli colleagues. - See more at: http://www.cjnews.com/canada/palestinian-md-lauds-israel-saving-children#sthash.andn4qZD.dpuf

Today, five Palestinians are training at SACH, which since its founding in 1996, has treated – free of charge – more than 3,400 underprivileged children from 48 countries, over half of them in the Palestinian territories and other neighbouring countries including Iraq, Jordan and Syria, 30 per cent in Africa and the rest in mostly developing countries around the globe.

He remembers being at the operation of a Palestinian child from Gaza during Israel's conflict with Hamas. "A journalist was there, and he asked the surgeon, Dr. [Lior] Sasson [SACH lead surgeon], if he didn't think he might be treating a Palestinian who would come back one day and kill Israeli children?

"Dr. Sasson said, 'No, I think these children will come back and do peace between Israelis and Palestinians.'" Othman knew then he had come to the right place.

Palestinian MD lauds Israel for saving children

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 14 - 01:19 PM

At least 1,109 Israelis and 6,862 Palestinians have died in Palestine since 2000; 1,519 of them have beenPalestinian children.
It's good to know that some doctors are doing what they are very well paid to do.
STATISTICS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:55 PM

"At least 1,109 Israelis and 6,862 Palestinians have died in Palestine since 2000; 1,519 of them have beenPalestinian children."

And if it weren't for the PLO and Hamas those numbers would be close to zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 14 - 07:17 PM

So you're saying, are you, that the PLO and/or Hamas pulled the triggers? How would you like me to say (which I won't, because, unlike you, I refuse to descend) that, had it not been for George Bush, 3000 Americans would not have died on 9/11? There are none so blind as those who will not see... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 14 - 03:45 AM

"And if it weren't for the PLO and Hamas those numbers would be close to zero."
You mean if they had all stepped aside and let the Israelis goose-step all over the middle east without offering resistance - "Come out with your hands up and you will not be harmed" - just like the the occupants of Sabra Shatila weren't harmed.
It's all happened before Boo Boo.
The State of Israel came into being to the sound of hand grenades being thrown into occupied houses in order to clear the way for israel's Brave New World.
The Palestinian opposition to Israel expansionism is no different in any way to the fight put up by the Jewish people against British colonialism, only this time it is the Israelis who are the militaristic thugs.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 14 - 03:53 AM

Israelis did not kill any in Sabra or Shatila.
All the massacres there were by Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 14 - 05:56 AM

It's good to know that some doctors are doing what they are very well paid to do.

And who pays those Israeli doctors to freely treat their enemies, or rather people from places at war with Israel, and what a rare and wonderful example of humanitarianism.
Small cheer?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 14 - 06:00 AM

"the Israelis goose-step all over the middle east..."

There goes Dr.Strangelove's arm again....he's just unable to control it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 14 - 06:24 AM

Yes, where are they goose-stepping Jim?
They once held vast swathes of the Middle-East taken in repelling attempts to overrun Israel, but hardly any remains.

Others are goose-stepping around in Syria, Hezbollah, ISIS, Iran, but no Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 14 - 07:44 AM

Israel fascilitated the massacre - proven beyond doubt - disputed by Israel, denied by the holocaust deniers.
"Yes, where are they goose-stepping Jim?"
The militaristic expansionist incursions speak for themselves.
This study expresses the concerns build up a military society in Israel.
ISRAELI MILTARISM

Some years ago a non-political collector friend attended a ballad conference in Jerusalem - he wrote of the constant presence of what he described as "strutting uniformed peacocks" on the streets arrogantly searching anybody they randomly chose - he described it as militaristic 20 years ago.
We still have his letter, which ends "Beam me up Scotty".
PROPERTY CONFISCATION
Israeli Soldier testimonies
CHECKPOINTS

OCCUPYING HOMES

CROWD CONTROL

SEARCHING FOR WEAPONS

ETHNIC CLEANSING

Jackbooting it is then
Jim Carroll