BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 06:20 PM

Just for the record, John: I have not only read them but cited them several times on various threads.

Interests of accuracy [remember my 'pedantry is legendary', according to one poster] --

above passim in re UN resolutions:

for 'censoring'
read 'censuring'

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 05:11 PM

"John, are you by innuendo attributing "anti-Semitic language and arguments" to me? If so, please identify same."

I do stand by my statement in context. You wrote that, in essence, bobad is quick to play the A-card. I was responding specically to that statement of yours. During the fifteen years I have been at Mudcat, I have read posts which can be said to be anti-Semitic based on agreed international definitions. Some of those folks no longer post here, some still do. I am not the arbiter of what is anti-Semitic; I posted a link to the international definitions for everybody here to read if they care to. For all I know only bobad and I have read them, or maybe everybody has read and understood them.

The bottom line is this: if one uses the consensus identified anti-Semitic language/arguments more than seldom, maybe that one needs to become more self-aware, if they consider themselves to be fair critics. I believe that my statement @12:41 accurately reflects that.

Greg, last night I did all the research for you that I'm going to do. It is my job neither to look for damning posts from you, nor to determine that you have never so argued. Only you know truly know what you mean when you post. That goes for all of us on Mudcat.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:36 PM

"Why don't you tell us how many UN resolutions censoring Israel last year alone?"

Do you think that the 50 Muslim majority countries in the UN might have something to do with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:24 PM

Associate member with certain export restrictions. I'm not arguing the probability, I'm telling you as a retired businessman who manufactured and sold engineering goods that could be used militarily.

That's the problem with you Keith. You'd rather trawl for bollocks that suits your view than accept facts.

This cow is small. That cow is far away....

Why don't you tell us how many UN resolutions censoring Israel last year alone?

I'll give you clue. There were less than 22 but more than 20. The rest of the world between them had less than 5 but more than 3.

How about I let you tell us their shocking human rights record and bloody minded contempt for the international community?

All you have to do is cut and paste 21 and 4 from this post. You are good at cut and paste so it shouldn't take long.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:01 PM

John, are you by innuendo attributing "anti-Semitic language and arguments" to me? If so, please identify same.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 12:41 PM

Greg, in-as-much-as bobad has defended himself from your comments to me, I will refrain. I do not pretend to know who is nor who isn't an anti-Semite because I cannot see into their heart of hearts. But if someone continually debates using anti-Semitic language and arguments, as I pointed out earlier in this thread (and in others as well) what are we to think of that person. At some point the answer becomes obvious.

I will stand by my interpretation of the context of those posts you listed. I think I tend to take a longer view of what is context for individual posts on this thread than you. As to whether or not bobab was being ironic in his posts, I'll let him answer that challenge from you, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 06:22 AM

"....anyone who criticizes Israel in any shape or form is ipso facto an anti-Semite."

Not true Greg.

Anyone who draws comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is an antisemite as per the EUMC - now Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA).

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations such as Israel being a theocracy or an apartheid state or referring to Gaza as a prison camp etc. This is antisemitism as per the EUMC - now Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA).

Singling out Israel for opprobrium. Just consider the thousands upon thousands of posts about Israel at Mudcat vs. the meager no. of posts concerning the human rights abuses, genocides, occupations etc. going on all over the world. These scarcely merit a few posts until the topic once again returns to Israel. Why is that Greg? I'll tell you why in one word Greg - that word is antisemitism whether you like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 05:49 AM

Restrictions on sensitive nuclear material applies to all states, but you said,
" In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

I was not aware because it is bollocks.
Made up.
Far from regarding it as a rogue state, it is an associate member state of the EU.

You were wrong and I was right, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 05:38 AM

EU don't impose, they may wish to compel member states to observe though, where such decisions are devolved to them, and trade outside of EU has many. The restrictions on nuclear and mass destruction materials is a NATO imposed restriction.

Start learning....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:59 AM

As the EU impose neither Musket, you were wrong anyway.
As ever.
You are very ignorant but I will still debate with you.
You may learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 02:51 AM

Restrictions = sanctions?

You really aren't informed enough on political or military matters to engage in debate Keith. I am no expert myself but bloody hell....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 10:07 PM

Your post misses Bobad's sarcasm

No, John, YOU missed - Boo isn't being sarcastic. Its his pet theme that anyone who criticizes Israel in any shape or form is ipso facto an anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 08:31 PM

Greg F.

25 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM - Bobad, I believe, was being ironic based on Troubadour's laundry lists @6:36 and @6:44. That'll context you.
25 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM - Your post misses Bobad's sarcasm. Ergo it seems to be you who misses context.
25 Jun 14 - 08:20 PM - Bobad confirms you missed his intention, confirming my "ergo".
25 Jun 14 - 09:07 PM - Having missed Bobad's meaning, you double down on @8:09 post.
26 Jun 14 - 08:19 AM - This is your post to me.
26 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM - My answer to your tripartite nonsense statement.

I pretty much (if not exactly) nailed the context issue. I can't say the same for you, but I appreciate the opportunity to show you where you went wrong.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 06:39 PM

Context:
25 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM
25 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM
25 Jun 14 - 08:20 PM
25 Jun 14 - 09:07 PM
26 Jun 14 - 08:19 AM

you agree with 66.66% of it?.

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:56 PM

...agree with it!? (corrected punctuation

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:50 PM

I believe I have the context spot on, Greg. If you don't think I have, enlighten me.
BTW, as you did not comment on the rest of that post, you agree with 66.66% of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:33 PM

Anti-semitism is not a shibboleth...

Context, John, Context.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 12:00 PM

Musket, I stated correctly that there were no UN sanctions, and you ridiculed me for it, saying you didn't know we could stray from reality.

And, you said unequivocally that there were EU restrictions in force and that you had had to comply with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 10:46 AM

My posts are missing as usual.

If this one gets there;

If Keith can say where I have ever spoke of UN sanctions I'd be grateful. If he then undertakes to find out the difference between sanctions and the resolutions I mentioned, he might be able to make a contribution to this thread.

Possibly anyway. His attempts to make me look an idiot above have adequately backfired as usual. By having a second pop, he even managed an encore of the hilarious...   I must stop, I'm in danger of pissing myself here...

Teribus needs to find out the significance of putting words in parantheses before allowing his comments to be judged. Perhaps he could let us know if he is labouring a false point or not getting a point?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM

"Nonsense. You're simply conflating "Jew" with "Government of Israel"- after going to some pains to deny Israel is a theocracy & pointing out the Arabs in the Knesset, etc.- in order to raise the old shibboleth of anti-Semitism."

Eleanor/Bill--every part of that sentence is wrong.
1) I do not conflate "Jew" with "Government". Go back to the earlier posts in this tread re: The Ottawa Protocols.
2) You obviously do not know the meaning of "theocracy."
3) Anti-semitism is not a shibboleth; it is still a very real phenomenon ith the world of 2014, and perhaps even at Mudcat.

Tippity-tap-tap.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:02 AM

The post.

Musket - PM
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:48 PM

"There are no UN sanctions"

Oh well, that's alright then.

Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 10:59 AM

Musket you stated, " In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

Then when I said there were no UN sanctions either, you replied, "Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality. "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:19 AM

This is not exactly true.

Its entirely true.

Israel is the proxy word for Jew/Jewish in that post.

Nonsense. You're simply conflating "Jew" with "Government of Israel"- after going to some pains to deny Israel is a theocracy & pointing out the Arabs in the Knesset, etc.- in order to raise the old shibboleth of anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 07:58 AM

Typical "Musketism":

"Israel is at "war" with Gaza?" - Musket

Which he got from:

"There is a weapons embargo against Gaza which is at war with Israel." - Keith A

Now let me see in recent times we have situations where:

The PIRA declared that they were "At War" with the Brits, and they actually attacked indiscriminately the general population, so please no protestations about them being at war with the British Government.

The above never ever automatically meant that the British, the British Government, or the British Army were ever "At War" with the PIRA.

The Taliban declared War on the UN and central Afghan Government's national reconstruction programme.

No reciprocal declaration from ISAF, ANSF or the Afghan Government.


Troubadour:

Those two prison camps who I think you are referring to - Gaza and the West Bank - If anybody made them so it was the Arabs themselves in 1949 when the Egyptians and the Jordanians took "Palestinians" and shut them up in refugee camps on Palestinian land.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:26 AM

Your lack of knowledge is TRULY stunning Musket.

Just a couple of weeks ago you were telling us about non-existent UN and EU sanctions against Israel, and a silly little story about how you had to comply with them.
What are you like?!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 04:02 AM

Israel is not at war with Gaza.
Gaza, under Hamas, is pledged to destroy Israel and kill all Jews.
It is at war with Israel and constantly committing war crimes against Israel by launching illegal, indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians.

Of course Israel hits back at those war criminals.
It would be a crime against their own people not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 03:34 AM

Israel is at "war" with Gaza? Your lack of knowledge of military matters is rather stunning Keith. Was The United Kingdom at "war" with Northern Island? Is North Korea at "war" with the people of North Korea?

Israel cannot be at "war" with land it considers partially it's territory, although the legitimate residents can be at war with Israel, seeing it as foreign aggressors. Israel claims the UN resolutions are invalid as Gaza forms part of their territory, making it an internal affair. In other words, terrorising people you have a duty to protect and serve. Not that those living there wish Israel to serve them, as they serve them with death and mayhem usually.

Israeli fighter jets bombed it only a few hours ago, killing a three year old child. If Poo Bad searches the internet, he might even come across pictures of her dead body. One less terrorist eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:16 AM

1. Surrounded by armed soldiers in both Gaza and their 40% of the West Bank.

Most countries have armed border guards.

2. Debarred from accepting delivery of ANY goods directly, but forced to accept whatever those armed soldiers CHOOSE to allow.

There is a weapons embargo against Gaza which is at war with Israel.
Any country would do the same.

3. Allowed to leave their open prison camps only by the consent of their prison guards.

Not true. They can go anywhere they like except Israel, which they hate anyway.
   
4. Answered with live rifle fire if they throw a stone in the direction of their oppressors.

All Israel's neighbours are worse in that.

5. Fired upon if they approach the perimeter wire fence.

Yes. The fence is well inside Israel's border and there are prominent warnings which everyone is aware of anyway.

6. Kicked out of their homes and their olive groves destroyed, to make room for Israeli settlers.

Not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:55 PM

"Jews" aren't mentioned in either of Troubadour's posts.

This is not exactly true. Israel and Israeli is mentioned, and we know that Israel is known as the Jewish State, both within Israel and to the world in general. It was created specifically as the Jewish Homeland. Israel is the proxy word for Jew/Jewish in that post.
----------------------------------------------------------------

"How many Israelis are treated thus in surrounding Arab states?"

This is an easy one.

The easy answer is none, zero. This is not a matter of Arab/Muslim benevolence...there are no Israelis in the surrounding countries.

The harder answer is that Jews in those countries are treated as second class citizens, if they are considered citizens at all. Some of those countries don't have enough Jews to populate a synagogue, or even a Minyan (Ten Jews need to form a quorum for communal prayer.) Property is confiscated, Jews are hanged as spies after show trials, and if they are allowed leave those countries, it is with hardly more than the clothes on their backs. One could write a book about this, and many have

[for population statistics of Jews in Muslim countries, Arab countries, and the world in general, go to--
   --wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country--      ]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:07 PM

Flew over my head? Hardly, Boo - you were just beating the same old antisemitism drum. The ususl BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:20 PM

I see that the point I was making flew over your head - no surprise there.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM

Funnything, Boo - "Jews" aren't mentioned in either of Troubadour's posts. You're seeing things that aren't there again. Still. Yet

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM

You neglected to mention that the Jews control the press and the world's economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 06:44 PM

"What have the Arabs of Palestine managed to achieve with it -S.F.A."

Palestine doesn't exist, thanks to Israeli intransigence, Palestine is two open prisons and a futile dream, so your question is facile and inane!

Palestinians can't even buy materials to repair Israeli damage to their homes, because "they might build bunkers instead", and we can't have them hiding in air raid shelters where the Israeli air strikes can't kill them, can we?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM

"The proof that honest brokerage of peaceful terms is nullified is the continued use of violence by Israel and the disproportionate reaction by the poor Palestinians.

Rock throwing is not comparable to phosphor bombs or home demolition by bulldozers

As evidenced by the continued housing developments, Israel would like to dominate any Palestinian attempt at autonomy."

Those who can look at this situation with an unbiased eye cannot fail to notice that it is the Palestinians who are:

1. Surrounded by armed soldiers in both Gaza and their 40% of the West Bank.
2. Debarred from accepting delivery of ANY goods directly, but forced to accept whatever those armed soldiers CHOOSE to allow.
3. Allowed to leave their open prison camps only by the consent of their prison guards.
4. Answered with live rifle fire if they throw a stone in the direction of their oppressors.
5. Fired upon if they approach the perimeter wire fence.
6. Kicked out of their homes and their olive groves destroyed, to make room for Israeli settlers.

How many Israelis are treated thus in surrounding Arab states?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 05:06 PM

Robinson was excellent, too. So all right. I chose Ms Powell because many consider her to be the best movie tap dancer of all time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 12:13 PM

More likely Bill Robinson, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM

"Nice tap-dancing, T-Bird..."
Hahahaha. That was written with a straight face by the Eleanor Powell of Mudcat?! [In case the name is not familiar to you, Greg F., I refer you to imdb.com or wikipedia; type in Eleanor Powell.]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:49 AM

You could just explain why is it not statistically valid to sample a period within the period of interest?
I say it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:28 AM

No, FW, I just don't care to become involved in your two-year-old toddler's game of "Why, Mummy??"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:13 AM

You can't reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:09 AM

I give up, FW. None so blind, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:25 AM

Why is it not statistically valid to sample a period within the period of interest?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

Why is that not acceptable?

Quit simply, FW, because it doesn't address or answer the question as asked.

Got it now?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:11 AM

Greg, you have been given a comparison of the aid over a random period within that of your question.
Why is that not acceptable?
What have you provided?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:55 AM

Nice tap-dancing, T-Bird, but that's TWO questions, and you still haven't answered either of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:32 AM

Yet, despite uniting with Hamas, the PA will still apparently be receiving generous financing from the U.S., Canada and Europe.

The UK, with the best of intentions, offers an average of $135 million a year to the PA for development; nonetheless, the Guardian newspaper reported that the money, always fungible, was instead being used by the PA to finance terrorist imprisoned in Israeli jails -- thus inadvertently financing more terrorism.

In addition, it is no secret that the PA officials have been stealing hundreds of millions of dollars of the aid money intended to improve the livelihoods of my people, the Palestinians, with no sign that Western aid to the PA ever filters down to the Palestinian public.

Instead of financing the PA leaders' lavish lifestyles, the world might finally start questioning the PA's institutionalized incitement of terror and hatred to my people which they relay daily through media, education and the religious institutions.

Ever since the PA came into existence, it has been keen to mass-produce and institutionalize the hatred of Jews and also the West. With their government-controlled TV shows that teach children how to kill Jews, and textbooks that preach hatred for Israel, the PA and Hamas are directly and fully responsible for each and every terror act committed by Palestinians, including the kidnapping of the three teenagers.

Mudar Zahran

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 01:40 AM

The question asked by Greg F was as follows:

" how does that{Aid given to the Palestinians} compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period?"

John on the Sunset Coast is perfectly correct in his statement about this question as it is carefully crafted to deflect from the point being made. Here is what I originally posted:

"In terms of aid, the "Palestinians" have been given four times as much as the total aid given under the Marshal Plan which rebuilt a Europe ravished by five years of total all out war - What have the Arabs of Palestine managed to achieve with it -S.F.A.

IF Greg F had been asking a question that compared apples with apples his question would have been:

"So T-Bird: how does that compare with the aid given to Israel, and what they have achieved with it during the same period?"

Should he ask that question he will get an answer.

"Palestinian" Refugees on "Palestinian" land - WHY?

Yasser Arafat, the man who invented the "Palestinians", the man who attempted to pass himself off as a "Palestinian" refugee, the "leader" of the "Palestinian People" - died a multi-millionaire - where did his money come from? And why have the "Palestinians" still not been able to find it? (Arafat embezzled billions from the self same "Palestinians" he was supposed to be "leading")

Mahmoud Abbas the new "Leader" of the "Palestinian People" also a multi-millionaire (estimated worth US$100 million), money he is suspected of acquiring by systematic embezzlement of public funds.

Now then Greg F it seems that being "Leader" of the "Palestinian People" is a licence to "Print Money" and make a fortune - What do the "Palestinian People" get out of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 05:13 PM

One last time, fuckwit: "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel" IS NOT MY QUESTION! Go back and read the fucking thing posted twice, second time solely for your benefit.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:54 PM

It does answer the your question "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel" Greg.
You have the amounts given to each in a typical year.
Thank you would be nice.