BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 01:55 AM

"They don't seem to have learned much vis a vis the treatment of Palestinians and the planting of illegal settlements, T-Bird."

What illegal settlements Greg F?

"There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. - bobad

Now that seems plain enough, but let us look at it from the other angle Greg F IF the settlements are illegal then that implies that there are borders and that the land "belongs" to someone else. Can you show us Greg F what borders the Palestinians accept, respect and guarantee?

This one perhaps?

As to the treatment of Palestinian Arabs and other minorities living in Israel I would think that the absence of masses of refugees fleeing this imagined oppression that you infer sort of blows that particular "duck" of yours clean out of the water.

Now if you want to really address how people treat other minority groups and other religions take a look at what has happened in Gaza since the Palestinians took over, take a look at Syria in the "rebel" held areas and take a look at the Lebanon since the Syrian invasion and occupation.

I think that what you will find is that the minority ethnic and religious groups in Israel are thriving whilst the ethnic and religious groups in all the other places mentioned have declined sharply.

Stringsinger, I will ask you a simple question that from you only requires a simple YES or NO answer (All other considerations can be debated afterwards) :

"Does the State of Israel have the right to exist and do the citizens of that sovereign state of Israel have the right to live in peace free from attack and threat of attack?"

I ask because I get the distinct impression from everything you write on the subject that the honest answer I expect to get from you is - NO it doesn't and NO they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:08 PM

According to latest reports, Hamas is responsible for the kidnapping

Reports from whom, and backed by what evidence, Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:54 PM

And then something about there being no illegal settlements.

Not much point in arguing with propagandist shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:54 PM

According to latest reports, Hamas is responsible for the kidnapping and have been sworn to secrecy not to cooperate in finding those responsible. This is very sinister and does indicate beyond reasonable doubt that they have connections to those responsible for this heinous crime. The demonstrations in the territories by Hamas supporters praising the kidnappings does give some hint as to the ideologies of those responsible.

Mahmoud Abbas has issued a statement condemning the kidnappings and pleading for an end to the violence. It is obvious that he has no control over the Hamas terrorist wing and he would be advised to annul the agreement with Hamas in a technocratic unity government. It remains to be seen if he will do so.

There is strong speculation that Hamas has many cells that are not answerable to any central Hamas command if it exists. This means that these cells operate independently and do what they wish without the knowledge of the political arm or even the so-called military wing of Hamas. If this is the case, the fate of the kidnapped teenagers is even more uncertain. No group within Hamas has claimed responsibility.

The most important thing now is to bring the kids back home safe and sound. All the accounts and blame-games must be placed on hold until we all know what their fate is - good or bad!

Shimon Zachary Klein

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:44 PM

Israel cracks down on Hamas amid search for teens
Associated Press By KARIN LAUB and JOSEF FEDERMAN
June 16, 2014

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel warned Monday it would exact a heavy price from Hamas, as a massive search for three missing Jewish seminary students turned into the widest crackdown on the Islamic militant group in the West Bank in almost a decade.

Israel has blamed Hamas for the apparent abductions, without providing proof, and has arrested more than 150 Palestinians since the three teens disappeared in the West Bank late Thursday.

Abbas condemned both the apparent kidnapping and a "series of Israeli violations" in a statement Monday. He referred to the arrests and the killing of a 20-year-old Palestinian by Israeli army fire early Monday, during a confrontation between stone throwers and soldiers in a West Bank refugee camp.

Despite the pitched rhetoric, Palestinian security officials have worked with Israeli counterparts to try to locate the missing teens, Palestinian officials said.

Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon said Hamas has begun "paying a heavy price, both in terms of arrests and assets," suggesting the aim is to try to dismantle the Hamas infrastructure in the West Bank. It's not clear how far Israel will go, though, considering the risk of a conflagration in the West Bank after several years of relative calm.

Israel has not provided evidence of Hamas involvement in the disappearance of the teens. Asked about Israel's claim, U.S. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said that while Hamas has used similar tactics in the past, "I don't want to jump to a conclusion" at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:30 PM

There are no illegal settlements

Right. You also believe in the Tooth Fairy, I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:10 PM

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 02:22 PM

Acts of benevolence between disputing parties provide a glimmer of hope

OK, well it would be an "act of benovelence" for the Israeli government to remove all of the illegal settlements instead of creating more on a daily basis, and it would be an "act of benovelence" for the Israeli government to cease its civil and human rights abuses.

These "acts of benevolence" might actually mean something, unlike yourt tale of a single doctor and a singkle patient.

Do you see either happening any time soon? And are you doing to bring about either eventuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM

So you would expect Israel to provide medical care to people who call for it's destruction for free?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:36 PM

"it's called benevolence"
No - it's called business
Jim Carroll

Palestinian medical tourism[edit]
A significant number of residents of the Palestinian territories seek medical treatment in Israel, often for sophisticated tests or treatments not available at Palestinian hospitals. Their treatment is paid for under a financial arrangement with the Palestinian Authority, or in some cases, at their own expense. Medical treatment for Gaza Strip residents is paid for by the Palestinian Authority or organizations such as the Peres Center for Peace.[29]
Palestinians who apply for medical treatment in Israel must obtain a humanitarian entry permit from Israel, of which thousands are issued annually. In January 2009, during the Gaza War, the Palestinian Authority temporarily canceled financial coverage for all medical care for Palestinians in Israeli hospitals, including coverage for the chronically ill and those in need of complex care not available in the Palestinian territories.Palestinian officials stated that they wished to send the patients to neighboring Arab countries instead, accusing Israeli officials of using Palestinian patients, some injured in Israeli airstrikes, in PR campaigns to improve Israel's tarnished image during the Gaza War.[30][31] In 2012, The Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Health reported spending approximately $42 million in 2011 to finance medical coverage of Palestinians in Israeli hospitals and the Arab World.[32] Arab citizens of Israel belong to the same health care system as that of all other citizens of the country.
File:Palestinian woman from the Gaza Strip is giving birth to quadruplets in a caesarean surgery in Israel Hospital.JPG
Gaza Strip resident giving birth to quadruplets at an Israeli hospital, 2008
The quality of medical care in Israel is significantly better than anywhere in the West Bank and Gaza. Irwin Mansdorf, a member of Task Force on Medical and Public Health Issues, Scholars for Peace in the Middle East wrote about routine care that Palestinians continue to receive in Israeli hospitals and from Israeli physicians.[33]
Saving Children, established by the Peres Peace Center, enables hundreds of Palestinian children to receive free medical care, in particular cardiac surgery, from Israeli surgeons.[34]
"Save A Child's Heart" is a program in which any child with heart problems can receive free medical attention and surgery from select doctors and hospitals within Israel. From 1996 to 2007, 4,591 children had been examined world wide, of the 1848 children treated 828 (45%) were Palestinian.[35]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:27 PM

"And the relevence of this single, one time act to the topic under discussion is.........?"

Acts of benevolence between disputing parties provide a glimmer of hope (to me anyway) that people will recognize their shared humanity and provide a step, however small it may be, toward reconciliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM

...That's all that is relevant in this discussion.

Sez you- who appointed you arbiter & when?

an Israeli doctor performed an act of benevolence

And the relevence of this single, one time act to the topic under discussion is.........?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:13 PM

Why is it so hard to believe that an Israeli doctor performed an act of benevolence for someone from a group for which Israel is an enemy? Is your hatred so profound that you can't bring yourself to accept that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:02 PM

I repeat, a physician is under no legal obligation to provide medical care to anyone who is not already their patient for whatever reason. Period. That's all that is relevant in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 12:55 PM

Cute, BooBad, but ya missed something:

Hippocratic Oath: Modern Version

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 12:35 PM

Under common law a physician has traditionally not been required to undertake the care of someone who is not already a patient. This reflects the position that no person is required to provide assistance to another except in exceptional circumstances.10,11,12 As summarized in St. John v. Pope (Texas Supreme Court, 1995), "Professionals do not owe a duty to exercise their particular talents, knowledge, and skill on behalf of every person they encounter in the course of the day … It is only with a physician's consent, whether express or implied, that the doctor–patient relationship comes into being."13 On the basis of the principle of contract law, that both parties must assent to the creation of a relationship, the right of refusal has been extended to emergency situations even when no other physician is available.14,15

10. Linden AM. Canadian tort law. 6th ed. Toronto: Butterworths; 1997. p. 284-99.
11. Fleming JG. The law of torts. 9th ed. Sydney (Australia): LBC Information Services; 1998. p. 162-72.
12. Klar LN. Tort law. 2nd ed. Scarborough (ON): Carswell; 1996. p. 147-69.
13. St. John v. Pope, 901 SW 2d 420 at 423 (Texas SC 1995).
14. Hurley v. Eddingfield, 59 NE 1058 (1901).
15. Fought v. Solce, 821 SW 2d 218 (Tex Ct Civ App 1991).

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:51 AM

Don't dispute your point re the Hippocratic Oath & its implications in the least, Ian. But you appear to me to have avoided the question as to why "Israel is where most Palestinians who can afford it go for healthcare", and what the implications may be for the subsequent reciprocal responsibilities of those 'electing' to exercise that option. Do you really feel that none such should exist?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:42 AM

There was a word in my post. The word was elective.

Whilst avoiding the issue of lack of infrastructure and medical expertise in a country professionals try to leave not enter, Israel is where most Palestinians who can afford it go for healthcare.

Not that such concerns would interest neocons and their apologists.

Let me repeat. Every doctor under professional registration is obliged to treat where possible in an emergency and not refuse elective care on the basis of enemy. You can refuse elective on any normal basis, be it time, funding, clinical risk or whatever you wish, but not on the opinion or status of the presenting patient.

The Red Cross, Red Crescent, Medicine sans Frontier and many more rely on this in order to save lives in areas of conflict. No doctor likes the inability to travel or relocate. Israel as any other country wants recognition of its medical schools so will not risk compromising its relationship with international concordats.

I once gave evidence at a fitness to practice panel at GMC for a doctor from Kuwait practicing here who had, quite lawfully in Kuwait, attended at executions, which is fine if he didn't touch anything or interfere until confirming death but was not passive, giving the go ahead for the trap door when satisfied the rope was attached correctly. They struck him off, which led to his visa being revoked. (My evidence was confirming his local work for the PCT I chaired.)

The international registration concordat through The World Health Organisation is strongly and rigorously upheld. Talk of President Abbas surgery being odd given circumstances politically is not reflecting any reality. Not allowing access to the hospital in the first place is one thing, but no surgeon will compromise their registration, unless they are foolish, and the Israeli law supports that clause.

There is some bollocks on this thread at times....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:15 AM

"What we have is children in the sandbox throwing sand at each other."

And you coming in with your inflammatory lie about Israel being a theocracy is constructive and helpful to the debate?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

The name-calling and rancor attending these erstwhile discussions proves the point as to why there continues to be open hostility between Israel and Palestinians.

There are no "right" answers as the pro-Israel pundits bloviate and the Palestinian people are second class citizens, even though Islam has its share of bloviaters as well.

The factoids presented here have no intrinsic value because they don't solve any problems but create more "walls" and divisions between people with their attempts to rationalize their
hostile behavior.

There is no real talk of peace between the two factions on this site which emphasizes
the thread's meaning here. The small hope has to do with the relinquishing of unhelpful factoids that support a propagandist point of view in the attempt for some to be "right" on this issue to bolster some egoistical claim to logic.

No real logic=no peace. Real logic has to do with an in-depth analysis of the situation and constructive attempts to solve the problem which is not found here or in the mid-East with perhaps the exception of BDS or the flotillas which remain to be seen.

In the meantime, the name-calling and self-righteous smugness of the Israeli defenders and the ignorance of the devastating effects of Islam regarding women's rights, Sharia law and other humanitarian violations is prevalent here.

What we have is children in the sandbox throwing sand at each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

But, Musket, you are avoiding the question of why that particular patient opted to have the doctors in that particular hospital provide the treatment she needed. It seems a bit perverse to demand treatment within a particular community which your husband simultaneously bends all his efforts and energies to undermining.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:50 AM

Abbas' wife was treated at a private clinic so I don't think it was an emergency. I maintain that it was an act of benevolence and there was no obligation to treat her when she could have just as easily been treated at home by qualified doctors trained by the Israelis. Your claim that every doctor is obliged to treat anyone who shows up and asks for it is not true. Dick head.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:39 AM

But Greg F the Israeli Government learned after 20 years.

Oh yes? They don't seem to have learned much vis a vis the treatment of Palestinians and the planting of illegal settlements, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:39 AM

Doctors don't have sworn enemies, they have patients.

Any doctor in any country is under obligation to treat anyone who presents if they are in a position to do so in an emergency and cannot refuse treatment electively on the basis of enemy.

It's called The Hippocratic Oath and forms the basis of the moral obligations of registration. Benevolence has nothing to do with it. It is a professional obligation.

A Palestinian doctor treats Israelis and vice versa. Both The UK and USA recognise medical schools in the area so on that alone, my knowledge serves me.

Poo Bad, is your comment about sworn enemy from ignorance or maliciousness?

Tell you what, is this lack of knowledge feeding all your other comments or is it healthcare you have no idea of?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:25 AM

The Hippocratic Oath has nothing to do with it dick head. The Israeli doctors are under no obligation to treat their sworn enemies - it's called benevolence. Now let see if that benevolence is reciprocated. I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:19 AM

What colour is the sky and how many Moons are there where you are sitting Musket? Because your rational, logic and reasoning are far removed the those considered normal on Planet Earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM

But Greg F the Israeli Government learned after 20 years. As evidenced by their now long standing agreements with Egypt and Jordan (The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan that is NOT Jordan the "glamour model")

They had signed up to all the bullshit Arab ceasefire promises in 1949 and 1956 only to see all the Arab promises broken so after the war in 1967 the Israelis adopted a different tack - land for peace.

Tried that in Gaza too but once again the Arabs of Palestine proved themselves to be liars incapable of keeping to their word.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM

From where I am sitting, saying that the Israelis are always being attacked by the Palestinians just shows the dangerous ignorance of people with no concept, no idea and nothing to bring to what was originally a serious debate.

The patterns and the scripts, not the pattern and the script. I have passed through checkpoints in the company of Israelis and Palestinians in the course of my business over the years and if I learned anything, it's not to take sides or assert the moral right of one side versus the other.

Doctors perform surgery under the Hippocratic Oath. To suggest they might use healthcare as a weapon is to slur the Israelis you are supporting, thick twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM

You'd think that after 67 years the Israeli government would have started to learn which end is up wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:30 AM

Recent events, the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers, have once again proved the pattern and the script for the last 93 years.

Arab attack, Israeli reaction

No attacks, no reactions

You'd think that after 67 years the Arabs of Palestine would have started to learn which end is up wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:28 PM

Will Abbas help find the kidnapped Israelis?

"Doctors in Israel performed surgery on Amina Abbas, the wife of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, at a private clinic near Tel Aviv over the weekend, as tensions between Israel and the PA mounted over the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers by Palestinian terrorists."

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 09:51 AM

Being rodents, I'm pretty sure Guinea pigs ar traif.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 01:16 AM

Presumably the Guinea pigs are kosher...

The coin didn't land on its edge Bruce.
zzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 04:59 PM

Oh.

And here I though it was because he thought he discovered some shit about you and was using it to make a snotty personal remark.

I suspect it's because he's confused you with someone else. Ridicule doesn't always make the intended target look stupid. (Of course, I could be wrong, but it's still amusing when he makes comments about OTHERS and their personal attacks.) Outtahere...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:28 PM

What the holy fuck are you talking about with the guinea pigs?!

Its an example of his rapier-like wit. Or half-wit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

You bet, BullshitBruce: All those thousands of Israeli citizens, the Society of Friends(Quakers), Amnesty International & etc. etc. etc - who oppose the policies of the Israeli Government, what it is perpetrating in the Occupied Teritories, its human rights abuses etc. - Anti-Semites, every man (and woman) jack of 'em.

All part of the Vast International Anti-Semetic Conspiracy, each & every one.

... discuss the facts.

When do you plan to begin?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

What the holy fuck are you talking about with the guinea pigs?!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:48 AM

And that is why YOU are the Mudcat expert on bullshit- it is all you have ever presented when asked for facts.

And the definition fits- Musket and YOU are both anti-Semites by the EU definition, from your own postings.


So go back to your guinea pigs and let the rest of us discuss the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:34 AM

More of the same tired old "anti-Semetic" horseshit, eh BB?

I seem to remember something about bullshit being the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

Trivia quiz, Muskie Baby:


How many time will you prove yourself a bigot and Anti-Semite ( by the EU definition) ?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:03 AM

Musket,

You seem to have problems with simple comprehension.

Israel was a NWS at the time of the NPT- IF it had signed it would have been entitled to keep those weapons and develop more, as the other NWS have done. Yet you complain about Israel.

Pakistan and India were NOT NWS at the time of the NPT- As non-NWS, they would have been forbidden from developing nuclear weapons and have been subject to inspections.
They chose NOT to sign, and then developed nuclear weapons. Yet you have nothing to say about Pakistan, or India.



So YOU criticize Israel for COMPLYING with a treaty IT DID NOT SIGN, nor get the benefits of, while keeping silent on nations such as Iran that have signed the treaty, then violated the terms after getting the benefits????


Sounds like you are BOTH a bigot and an Anti-Semite ( by EU definition)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:29 AM

I shall toss a coin.

Heads.

Anti semitism.

zzzzzzz







Trivia quiz. Brucie baby just mentioned three nuclear armed countries. Which of the three was already offence capable at the time of the agreement, hence refusing to sign something totally fucking different to the undertaking the other two had issues with?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 07:52 AM

Steve,

" Israel is in breach of a treaty that its major aid donors subscribe to"

This is a false statement , as shown by my previous post. Your repeating it makes you a liar, not just misinformed.




Musket,

AT THE TIME that the NPT was being signed, ISRAEL WOULD have been a NWS ++IF++ it had signed up. It chose NOT to sign, and therefore is NOT bound by the provisions that apply to SIGNATORIES. IF it had been a signatory, it would be a NWS.

You may say that it should have been a signatory, but then you need to address India and Pakistan, BOTH of which were NOT NWS at the time of the NPT, chose not to sign, and THEN developed nuclear weapons. Any criticism of Israel without holding Pakistan and India to the same standard is obvious bigotry, and Anti-Semetism according to the above referenced EU definition.

Which is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 06:22 AM

Mr. Shaw one question you seem to be assiduously dodging:

"Why after NINE Years are there still EIGHT Palestinian Refugee Camps in GAZA?"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM

Bearded Bruce overlooks an important point, not that he lets it bother him.

When did Israel admit to having nuclear weapons in the first place? You can't have it both ways.

If Yorkshire, with a similar population had their billions, they could afford to clean out the grease traps in the chippy on the High St in Heckmondwike.

What are the billions being spent on for fuck's sake? Welfare programmes? Most Israelis can survive day to day without government handouts and are overall rather affluent compared to many people so the billions given have to be spent somewhere. Usually spent taking the piss out of UN resolutions.....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:44 AM

Mr Shaw from the exchange regarding Israel the USA and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty I can only infer that you are a complete and utter feckin' eedjit.

Israel's "peaceful" nuclear programme was started shortly after those of the United Kingdom and that of France, it is supposed that Israel became a nuclear weapon state about 13 years BEFORE the Nuclear NPT came into effect. Israel is a non-signatory to that treaty so could you explain to us all, by whatever convoluted stretch and leap of logic precisely why the terms and conditions of the said Nuclear NPT should apply to Israel?

Ah yes all that aid from the USA going to Israel. Well not exactly aid Mr.Shaw they are "credits" that Israel can use or not at their discretion, and they have to be spent in the USA, or if spent in Israel the work resulting from that spent is subject to certain restrictions and prior US approvals. Now why did the USA and Israel feel the need for this "aid"? Ever hear of a thing called "The Cold War"? When US President Dwight D. Eisenhower fucked up right royally in 1956 and failed to back the UK and France over Suez almost overnight he created the following situation for America and the middle-east:

1: Egypt under Nasser found it had a reinforceable border with Israel which included a massive salient projecting deeply into the former mandated territory of Palestine (Gaza) which Egypt had taken by force in 1948.

2: Had Eisenhower backed Britain and France then to get to Israel, Egypt, the leader of the pan-Arabist movement at the time, would have had to confront and break through territory controlled by two permanent sitting members of the UN Security Council (Britain and France) before it could ever create trouble with Israel.

3: The USSR's backing of Nasser meant that most Arabs states fell into the USSR's sphere of influence and the USSR started dishing out the aid she is best known for giving - ARMS

4: The Arab countries of North Africa meant that the USSR secured the Southern shores of the Mediterranean and for the first time ever the USA had to deploy a "Mediterranean Fleet" (IIRC it was the US Sixth Fleet) prior to that the US had maintained a naval presence in the Mediterranean dating back to the early 19th century at a "Naval Squadron" level.

Israel DID get by without that aid in 1948 and her armed forces have never looked back since. The IDF exists to PROTECT Israel whereas the armed forces of Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and every other armed group supported by Arab States exist to ensure that whoever is in power stays in power withing the confines of their own borders - i.e. to suppress civilian dissent, which is why they tend to fare badly when confronted with trained opposition.

Glad you brought up Egypt and the Army - Nothing to do with the "big, bad, West" - the Army has been in control of Egypt ever since Colonel Gamal Abdel Nasser deposed King Farouk of Egypt in 1952 - to date nothing whatsoever has changed.

I did bring up Egypt and Jordan because they made agreements with Israel that they got their land back if they stopped attacking Israel. Since signing those deals there have been no attacks - so those "peace talks" were not only "meaningful" they actually "worked". Different completely to the talks between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs and the Syrians, but exactly the same would apply if the attacks stopped then sovereignty would be respected (Israel as I said has a proven track record of holding to its agreements and keeping their side of the bargain - Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Fatah on the other hand DO NOT)

Rather amused by your "naughty child" analogy. Now you tell me who is acting the part of the "Naughty Child":

1947 - UN propose a two-state solution, the Jews of Palestine agree the Arabs of Palestine reject the UN's proposals and opt for war in 1948 ( A war that they lose) Who was the "Naughty Child"?

1949 - After losing the War in 1948 the UN brokers a ceasefire in which Israel's Arab neighbours and the Arabs of Palestine sign agreeing to the borders defined by the agreement and to cease attacks on Israel. The attacks by Arab Fedayeen based in Egypt, Jordan and Syria continue from 1949 until 1956. Who is the "Naughty Child"?

Keeps going on in that vein right to this day (1967, 1973, 1978, 1982, 1993, 1996, 2000, 2005, 2006, 2008) - As far as the Arabs of Palestine go - their word is about as good as Hitler's was in the 1930s. Who is the "Naughty Child"?

67 years they have had to sort this out - let them get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 09:25 PM

The issue is not whether Israel signed things or not, though it's incredibly buttock-clenching to read about how the US have let Israel off the hook in this regard in such a lily-livered way. Truly, the US is Israel's poodle. The issue is that Israel is in breach of a treaty that its major aid donors subscribe to, and that those donors daren't say anything really. Mainly thanks to the undemocratic pro-Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, which, in the land of the free, dictates absolutely what politicians can and can't say about Israel. Now stop pissing around and let's hear you deny that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:07 PM

"
Ya got any actual facts you'd like to share, or just more editorials?"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:06 PM

Ever think of discussing facts instead of making un-based personal attacks?


No I guess not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:03 PM

Oh dear- another bout of serial postarrhoea. Ever think of changing your diet, BB?