BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:28 PM

Classic quote from Israel's legendary statesman Abba Eban from the above linked article:

"If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:24 PM

"For example, the EU recently found that the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah had squandered close to €2bn of aid from European taxpayers; aid intended to build Palestinian institutions, enfranchise the people, elevate their quality of life. Meanwhile, the Palestinian Al-Quds University is reported to have staged a Nuremberg-style rally by members of the Islamic Jihad terrorist organisation, replete with black uniforms and Nazi salutes. Yet such issues concerning incitement and mismanagement, which strike at the heart of why the Palestinians' national goals remain unfulfilled, are routinely overlooked by the UN.

The UN's one-sidedness has also damaged the larger cause of human rights. So far this year, the UN general assembly has passed 21 resolutions condemning Israel. Four resolutions have been passed against all countries in the rest of the world combined. In the meantime, one can only guess at what truly motivates self-declared supporters of the Palestinian cause who remain relatively silent about the Egyptian blockade of Gaza, or the suffering of Palestinians embroiled in the Syrian conflict."

The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:52 PM

Besides, one person is supposed to poison the entire organization? They canned him. What did you want them to do- keep him on and promote him?

Same old paste-and-copy one-liner horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:52 PM

Right, Boo- Blog-O-Paedia- MUST be true, then. Even if they are unproven accusations, your usual fare. Look up the Blog-O-Paedia entry for UN Watch, why dontcha?

And please, not the Nazi horseshit yet again. Who gives a crap WHAT the man collects? Or are you saying that the collection makes him a de facto Nazi? That's even beyond your usual level of horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:46 PM

The international non-governmental organization Human Rights Watch (HRW) has been criticized by national governments, other NGOs, the media, and its founder and former Chairman Robert L. Bernstein. Among other things, critics have accused the organization of being influenced by United States government policy, particularly in relation to reporting on Latin America; ignoring anti-Semitism in Europe or being itself an anti-Semitic organization; biases in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict; and unfair and biased reporting of human rights issues in Eritrea and Ethiopia. Accusations in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict include claims that HRW is biased against Israel and that this bias in influenced by requesting or accepting donations from Saudi Arabian citizens.

Criticism of Human Rights Watch

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:38 PM

Human Rights Watch investigator suspended over Nazi memorabilia

A senior military analyst with the international watchdog, Human Rights Watch, has been suspended by the organisation following controversy surrounding his collection of Nazi wartime medals and memorabilia.

Marc Garlasco, a former intelligence officer for the Pentagon, has in recent days become the subject of pro-Israeli bloggers who have pointed out that he is an avid collector of Nazi memorabilia from the second world war. The bloggers have questioned whether this is an appropriate hobby for someone who has led Human Rights Watch's investigations into the two recent Israeli wars in Lebanon and Gaza.

The greatest controversy has focused on postings he has made to military memorabilia online bulletin boards under the moniker Flak 88*. In one he was shown wearing a jumper bearing an Iron Cross. In another he wrote: "That is so cool! The leather SS jacket makes my blood go cold it is so COOL!"

Note: 88 = Nazi skinhead code for Heil Hitler. H being the 8th letter of the alphabet, therefore HH=88.


The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:28 PM

Musket, that UK government site is about "arms embargoes and other restrictions."

UK is bound by both UN and EU restrictions.
THERE ARE NONE AGAINST ISRAEL.

stop trying to make me look a liar Keith,

I just supply the facts Musket.
The lies come from you.

"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

That is completely untrue.
Made up.
False.
Honest mistake or something else Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:23 PM

Well, Boo, instead of another of your Pro-Israeli U.N.-Bashing site, let's see what Human Rights Watch has to say


Here


And Here


And Here


And Here

for example....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:01 PM

Gosh, a day in me garden and I find that all this is still going on.

"If you go on saying "Nazi" then you are, in their terms, 'antisemitic'.

Progress at last. Michael has stopped calling Jim an antisemite in unqualified terms, and now only says he's an antisemite "in their terms". So a nice bit of subtle distance put. Don't think I haven't noticed, Michael. Even more backtracking would be welcome, however. If your hubris allows, of course. I love it when I see a man wriggle who really knows he's wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:54 PM

UN, Israel & Anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:44 PM

"There are no UN sanctions against Israel"

"Here is a list of arms embargoes."

Oh dear, where do I start...

Whether it be the list of UN resolutions (as opposed to sanctions as Keith tried changing my words to) or the difference between UK government restrictions and international restrictions we abide by.

Good job I'm not a thick cunt eh?

stop trying to make me look a liar Keith, I'm injecting a bit of reality into this la la land debate. Sorry but I have no time for people who spoil what could be decent debate by your pathetic games. I brush fools off before breakfast and judging by recent threads, so do many others here.

Give up Keith. Best to look daft as a brush than the weird bloke in the tap room with a jacket bought from Army Surplus and ranting about how a military view is interesting..

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:21 PM

Musket, here are all UK and EU restricted countries.
You will not find Israel mentioned.
Where was your firm based?
Yemen?

https://www.gov.uk/current-arms-embargoes-and-other-restrictions

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:15 PM

Jim the governments of France, Ireland, Sweden, Canada, Australia, Finland, etc. are not so "fascist" and not so "interested" that they will rip into Israel over certain policies but ignore war crimes, atrocities and massacres!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:09 PM

There are no UN sanctions against Israel.
Perhaps you are confusing it with Iran?

You also said this

"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment (invisible ink?) to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

It is completely untrue.
Made up.
False.
Honest mistake or something else Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:48 PM

"There are no UN sanctions"

Oh well, that's alright then.

Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality.

How are the toy soldiers?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 01:37 PM

"No democratic government have accused Israel of atrocity or any war crime."
You have made your point Keith - that as far as you are concerned the silence of interested politicians takes precedence over independent reports, human rights groups, protesting Jews.... anybody and everybody who accuses Israel of the atrocities that have been fully documented and in many cases, photographed.
This not only confirms your own fascism, but it is (I believe) an accurate of Israel's fascism - you can't say it clearer than that
That'll do nicely thank you.
Pontificating waffle is no substitute for honest responses Mike
I take it you're all the way with Keith's fascism - your somewhat spineless evasion indicate that to be the case.
Please don't ever call me a bad loser again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:32 PM

An appeal from Fairyland to one Mr J Carroll, who needs urgently to get his head together regarding the several functions of two of our dramatically distinguished magical denizens.

Please would he note that ~~~

The Fairy Godmother was the supernatural enabler who organised means for her Goddaughter Cinderella to go to the Ball to meet Prince Charming, despite the efforts of her two malevolent Ugly Stepsisters [whose names, according to Fairyland folklore, were Jemima & Carol] to prevent her attendance at this enviable function.

I, on the other hand, am the glittering & bellringing assistant to one Mr Peter Pan, who occurs in quite another dramatic entertainment.

It would be much appreciated if Mr Carroll would stop confusing us. Our roles, personalities, and comparative status, are vastly different.

Thank you in advance, Mr Carroll, for your kind consideration of my request.

Yours spellbindingly

☤~Tinkerbell~☤

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:02 PM

"Mike has declined to comment on Jewish accusations of Einstein and co's comments on Israel, or on any similar Jewish statement - gullible propaganda - Antisemitism - what?"
,..,
No I haven't --

"If you go on saying "Nazi" then you are, in their terms, 'antisemitic'. So are all & any of these celebs & notables you adduce if they do so, Jewish or not." 0437 am
.,,.

If you make these accusations and then don't trouble to read the replies to them, as here, you only make a bigger, & more contemptible, fool of yourself, don't you, Jim?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM

There are no UN sanctions either.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:13 AM

Musket, you said this.

"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment (false moustaches?) to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

It is completely untrue.
There are no such EU restrictions.
You made it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM

I don't know about invisible ink, you put that, presumably to make you look foolish.

The EU restrictions apply. They apply to all countries under UN and a concordat of EU countries is in place over it. It covers offensive rather than defensive arms and anything used for nuclear weapons. The USA are the main breakers of the myriad resolutions covering it.

You only issue UN resolutions when you agree them. Rogue state.

Did they teach you how to defend Israel against wogs in the "paras"? {snigger}

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:03 AM

Jim, here is the report of the Israeli enquiry you mention.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/kahan.html

It does not " ridicule the claim that a massacre was not forseen by Israeli officials," it just says that it should have been foreseen.

No democratic government have accused Israel of atrocity or any war crime.
That is why you can not produced any.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:47 AM

Musket, you said this.

"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment (invisible ink?) to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

It is completely untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM

In 2013 alone, The UN handed out 25 resolutions overall, 21 against the rogue state of Israel.

When selling certain machined equipment, we had to prove as part of our export licence that they could not be used for Israeli atomic weapon development, and that if used by the military (who purchase construction plant as the Arabs facing bulldozers and wreckers well know) that they were for defence and never offence.

I had to attest that our agent in Tel Aviv would uphold this. (He was irreligious and scornful of their using fairy stories to oppress people anyway)

Don't say I make things up. I actually live in the world you fantasise over. Stick to your toy soldiers.

Michael. Two things;

I use posh words purely in order to impress you, nobody else. That I learned them whilst knowing my place meant I started using them whilst pushing a ferret down my trousers prior to taking a whippet for a walk.

They are missing the ox. Sturridge looks promising but needs to find the net having run into space, trapped the ball, dodged defenders and done the hard work.... Rooney looked fit but didn't influence play and Honduras were too cynical for our players to try and play. Not much point in getting cropped in a so called friendly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:26 AM

"Just lying propaganda for the consumption of gullible dupes."
All reports of Israeli atrocities have been reported by Human rights groups   such as Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International.
They have been condemned by Jewish organistions such Jews for Justice and have been compared to fascism by Jews themselves as far back as Einstein, through to Noam Chomski and the ex-leader of Mossad.
Describing all these as "lying propaganda" and "gullible" and making the outrageous suggestion that "Governments know better" is confirmation of your own fascism - it is a classical definition of fascism - the tying of the people's will to that of the state (Italy's bundle of sticks).
Mike has declined to comment on Jewish accusations of Einstein and co's comments on Israel, or on any similar Jewish statement - gullible propaganda - Antisemitism - what?
I'd go and watch the tennis with Tinkerbell if I were you - you've shown us what you're made of and added another paragraph to your CV.
Israel it a terrorist state that would have long ago been indicted for its crimes if it hadn't had the protection of US vetoes.
More Israeli "gullible Antisemites"

The massacre was a wild suspension of law and morality, and the interesting normative questions concern the scope and degree of responsibility. The killers entered the camps at the behest of Israeli officials who were certainly aware of Phalangist hostility towards
Palestinians -- Phalangists had previously massacred Palestinians when the Tel Az-Zater refugee camp was taken in 1976, and Bashir Gemayel had repeatedly described the Palestinians as "a people too many" in Lebanon. An Israeli commission of inquiry ridiculed the claim that a massacre was not forseen by Israeli officials, especially after Gemayel's assassination, and concluded that "indirect responsibility" rested on the shoulders of Sharon, Eitan, IDF commanders, Foreign Minister Yitsak Shamir, and Prime
Minister Begin. Presumably, the qualifier "indirect" was based on the assumption that Israeli soldiers did not actually do the killing. Yet, allowing the revenge-seeking Lebanese Forces into the camps under the fiction that they would clean out "terrorists" suggests complicity if not outright instigation. In other circumstances, those responsible -
- directly or indirectly -- would have been convicted of war crimes

Have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 08:33 AM

Article 2 of the Association Agreement between EU and israel states:

Relations between the Parties, as well as all the provisions of the Agreement itself, shall be based on respect for human rights and democratic principles, which guides their internal and international policy and constitutes an essential element of this Agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 08:30 AM

Support?
I said that your accusations of war crimes and atrocities are bollocks, as witness the complete absence of any condemnation by democratic governments.

No country gets blanket support and all get criticised over some policies, but atrocities and war crimes are never allowed to go unopposed.

No war crimes.
No atrocities.
Just lying propaganda for the consumption of gullible dupes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM

Where is your democratic support for Israel - we are not discussing condemnation - as MIke just pointed out "All Britain's relations with anyone are going to be to some extent 'political & business based'"
FRANCE
aAs with China
That's it then - no support anywhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 08:04 AM

Getting a bit lost in all the copy-pasted verbiage, Jim, to be honest. Still don't see how I have made any 'point' for you; or indeed what your 'point[s]' is/are: esp in re those wiki copy/pastes about UK judges issuing arrest warrants for supposed war crimes against visiting Israeli diplomats... I mean, what of it? What was that all about, in relation to the thread?

Thoroughly exercised & puzzled, I fear ···

Think I'll go & watch the tennis.*

Sorry.

~M~

*[BTW, Musk -- are you about? Last night's footie didn't turn out so 'cosy' after all, did it? -- wot with electric storms & 0-0 scoreline, & all!]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:50 AM

Musket.
In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment (invisible ink?) to Israel as we see it as a rogue state.

There are no such EU restrictions on Israel which is an associated state of the European Union.
You made it up Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:41 AM

Jim my case has been that no single democratic state has ever accused Israel of "atrocities" or "war crimes" and none of your ranting challenges that FACT!

Of course they are critical of and speak out against US, and Israeli policies as I have acknowledged they do, but never an accusation of atrocity or war crimes which if true would eclipse any such disagreement.

No war crimes.
No atrocities.
Just lying propaganda for the consumption of gullible dupes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:33 AM

Musket,
Western governments who use resolutions such as this to rein in rogue states. In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state.

I was not aware of that.
Please supply details and or your source.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:19 AM

"Jim: All Britain's relations with anyone are going to be to some extent 'political & business based' by their very nature, aren't they"
Thank you for making my point for me Mile
Keith has listed these countries and claimed support for Israel's policies because of their silence on Israel' atrocities - this and his denials of those atrocities are the only defence he has put forward
Jim Carroll

Norway and Israel Relations
Norway understands this terrifying crisis subjected to Palestine, foreseeing even more imminent disaster, Norway has taken steps to reassure aid and dissemination of the Neo-Nazi Israeli regime, to the point of demanding a return of tax revenues. Two months ago Norway demanded Israel return the palestinian tax revenues generated by the Palestinian economy. According to James Petras (2006) in The Power of Israel in the United States:

On January 25, 2006 the Palestinian people voted overwhelmingly in favor of Hamas in the cleanest election to take place in any Arab Middle Eastern country. The Israeli government immediately refused to recognize the democratic outcome. It refused to turn over Palestinian tax revenues, deliberately blocked all trading outlets to drastically reduce what was already Palestinian subsistence living, and began an intense and prolonged series of violent assaults on Palestinian cities and villages, killing and maiming hundreds.
In response to this evident crisis, Norway proceeded to a press releases urging Israel to return those tax revenues:
"This money belongs to the Palestinians. Israel just administers these funds on behalf of the Palestinian Authority according to an agreement. Withholding these funds undermines President Abbas and other Palestinian political forces that are pursuing a peaceful solution," said Mr Støre.
We are seeing the persistence of Israel's "Final Solution", Ehud Olmert stated after Hamas's democratic election: "I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza" (July 2, 2006), reinforced by Labor Party Minister Yitzak Rabin:
Israel will create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:13 AM

Jim: All Britain's relations with anyone are going to be to some extent 'political & business based' by their very nature, aren't they. Really can't see what point you think you've made with that copy/paste from Wiki about those silly attempts by the ill-disposed to arrest diplomats from a notionally diplomatically "friendly" foreign jurisdiction here on diplomatic missions. What the motivations of the judges perceiving possible prima facie grounds for prosecution may have been is much open to question, it seems to me.

So what was your point, precisely?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:06 AM

Keith
You have consistently included Ireland in your list of Israeli supporters, even though you have been given evidence to the contrary.
Alan Shatter, a Jewish member of the Irish Government who has just bene forced to resign, is the only Irish politician to have spoen in support of Israel
Jim Carroll
Ireland's real position on Israel
On 19 January 2010, Mahmoud al-Mabhouh a senior Hamas military commander was assassinated in Dubai by a team of eight suspected Mossad officers who used counterfeit European passports, including Irish passports.[10] The Irish government responded by expelling a staff member of the Israeli Embassy in Dublin.[11] Ireland subsequently delayed an EU-Israel agreement which would involve allowing Israel to access sensitive information on EU citizens, and demanded that Israel tighten its data protection laws.[12]

On 5 June 2010, an Irish humanitarian aid vessel MV Rachel Corrie heading for Gaza, was intercepted and seized by the Israeli Navy.[13] This caused political tension between Ireland and Israel.[14] [15]
On 25 January 2011, Ireland upgraded the Palestinian envoy in Ireland to that of a full embassy which resulted in the Irish Ambassador to Israel being summoned. Israel announced that it "regrets" the decision.[16]
On 4 November 2011, the Irish ship MV Saoirse carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza was intercepted by the Israeli Navy in international waters. The Navy boarded the ship, took those aboard in custody and towed it to Ashdod. In response, Irish Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore stated that the Irish government do "not agree with [the Gaza blockade], (...) regard it as contrary to international humanitarian law in its impact on the civilian population of Gaza, and (...) have repeatedly urged Israel to end a policy which is unjust, counter-productive and amounts to collective punishment of 1.5 million Palestinians."[17]
On 16 November 2011, unnamed sources from the Israeli Foreign Ministry claimed that "Ireland (is the) most hostile country in Europe" and was "pushing all of Europe's countries to a radical and uncompromising approach". An unnamed official argued that "the Irish government is feeding its people with anti-Israel hatred" and that "what we are seeing here is clear anti-Semitism." An official from the Irish Foreign Affairs Department announced that "the Government is critical of Israeli policies in the occupied Palestinian territories. It is not hostile to Israel and it is clearly wrong to suggest as much," he said. "The notion that this Government is or would be trying to stoke up anti-Israeli feeling is untrue. We are not hostile to Israel. We are critical of policies, particularly in the occupied Palestinian territories. These are not the same things".[18] Israel's ambassador to Ireland was reported as distancing himself from claims of Irish anti-Semitism.[19]
In early 2012 the Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign organised a "cultural boycott" of Israel, as a result of which Irish music group Dervish (band) cancelled a proposed tour of Israel, citing "an "avalanche of negativity" and "venom" directed towards them." [20] This online campaign was officially condemned by Irish Justice Minister Alan Shatter [21] and Irish Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore [22]
In 2013, Alan Shatter, minister of Justice, Equality and Defense said, while visiting Israel, that "Ireland is a friend of Israel. We have a government in Ireland that wants a deeper engagement. But we also have a government in Ireland that is committed to the peace process."[23]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:55 AM

What are my 'facile, lazy memes', please, Ian? I say nothing in excuse of Israel's entirely unacceptable bullying behaviour. My sole contribution has been objection, shared with the committee appointed by the Government of the Dominion of Canada et al, to the inappropriate & facile & peculiarly in context offensive use of the epithet "Nazi" in relation to Israel.

~M~

Always have to look up yet again to remind myself what this manufactured trendy pretentious cant word 'meme' is supposed to mean. Having done so, I am never much the wiser. Still, go on using it if you think it makes you sound sorta philosophical & in choon wiv da zeitgeist 'n' that innit

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:31 AM

Britain's relations with Israel are political and business based
Examples

"Arrest warrants[edit]
When he flew to England in 2005, retired Israeli general Doron Almog narrowly escaped arrest for war crimes after a UK Judge had issued a warrant in a British court, on the basis of the principle of universal jurisdiction. Almog was tipped off about the arrest and stayed on the plane until its return flight to Israel after 2 hours.[22] It was later revealed that the police failed to board the plane because they were denied permission by El Al, Israel's national airline, and feared an armed confrontation and the "international impact of a potentially armed police operation at an airport".[23]

In December 2009, an arrest warrant was issued for then leader of the opposition Tzipi Livni due to alleged war crimes committed during the 2008-09 Gaza War, when Livni was foreign minister.[24] These incidents strained relations between Israel and the United Kingdom, and Israel urged the UK to rethink its policies to prevent a further breakdown.[25] A few months earlier, former military chief Moshe Yaalon had called off a visit to Britain due to similar concerns.[26] Israeli defense minister Ehud Barak was also threatened with arrest, but the courts ruled that as a sitting minister he enjoyed diplomatic immunity.[27] British Foreign Secretary David Miliband announced that Britain would no longer tolerate legal harassment of Israeli officials in this fashion and arrest threats against visitors of Livni's stature would not happen again. To achieve this, British law would be reformed.[28] Israel's deputy foreign minister Danny Ayalon said that the risk of arrest was harming bilateral relations[29] but the law was not changed as promised. Israel halted the "special strategic dialogue" with Britain in protest.[30]

Legislation passed in 2011 under David Cameron's Conservative government altered the law, and required that the Director of Public Prosecutions give his consent to any private prosecution for war crimes under universal jurisdiction, to prevent politically motivated cases and to ensure that there was solid evidence. Justice Secretary Kenneth Clark explained that "the balance is struck between ensuring those who are accused of such heinous crimes do not escape justice and that universal jurisdiction cases are only proceeded with on the basis of solid evidence."[31] Livni arrived in the UK later that year in what was perceived to be a test case of the new legislation. The Crown Prosecution Service later revealed that it had received an application for an arrest warrant but no conclusion had been reached on whether there was sufficient evidence to support conviction. Foreign secretary William Hague then declared that Livni was on a "special mission," which granted her immunity from prosecution.[32] The "special mission" status was effective in protecting Livni in this case.[33]"
"It is all lies and propaganda "
Sure it is
"Governments know better."
Oh - for **** sake - the same governments who carried out an illegal war and gave us decades of body bags from Iraq and Afghanistan
This quote is classic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:09 AM

From this debate you can see how Israel frustrates and embarrasses Western governments and especially educated reasonable people therein.

Don't forget, the facile lazy memes that the likes of Keith, Michael , Poo Bad etc are coming out with are nothing to the propaganda intelligent people with polarised views can manage.

I too have spent time in Israel. I too see happy smiling faces on the beach. But I saw hypocrisy by the, to be fair, scared members of the general public and a deep ingrained belief that Palestinians shouldn't be given a single inch. I saw men with goldilocks hairstyles nodding and telling people to bulldozer Arab settlements. (My business interests took me to such places sadly) and I saw rational people having to observe their Sabbath or face victimisation and worse.

That was mid ' 90s. I see nothing to suggest they are any further in trying to live with neighbours and I see no attempt to comply with UN resolutions we demand they follow.

That's we. Western governments who use resolutions such as this to rein in rogue states. In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state.

Your move.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:47 AM

NO NATION HAS EVER OPENLY SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ATROCITIES OR WAR CRIMES AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED - WHERE HAVE THEY
SILENCE FROM POLITICIANS IS NOT SUPPORT OR EVIDENCE OF INNOCENCE,

You are right.
They have not even criticised it as they have China's internal repression.
That is because there are no atrocities or war crimes to either support or condemn Jim.
They do criticise over the settlers, which would be trivial in comparison if such things were true.

It is all lies and propaganda for the consumption of gullible dupes like you.
Governments know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:37 AM

So go on bleating it then, Jim; and I shall go on indicating what it proves you, in the judgment of at least two competent authorities appointed to judge specifically on this very question, the Government of the Dominion of Canada and the EUMC, to be.

If you go on saying "Nazi" then you are, in their terms, 'antisemitic'. So are all & any of these celebs & notables you adduce if they do so, Jewish or not. It is perfectly possible to be against Israel in its present form without resorting to such officially-designated antisemitic name-calling ~~ I am and I don't. If you don't want to be thought so, stop doing it. If you won't stop, then you are being, little as you like the idea, demonstrably and manifestly, an antisemite. So stop doing it, or live with the designation; and please do not trouble yourself to tell me again that I mustn't 'dare' to call you so.

Up to you...

Best regards as ever

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM

To prove the point, those countries DO criticise Israel over its settlers.
If Israel was guilty of all those heinous crimes, the settlers would not merit a mention.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM

"he nevertheless goes on incessantly bleating "Nazi",
Until you deal with the facts that others, including Jews, are saying the same thing and have done so since the birth of Israel, you are dishonestly avoiding the fact that there is some validity in the accusation - you have added dishonest along with hypocrisy to your CV.
You claim to have responded to all points put to you - do you consider the Mossad man, Noam Chomski, Eisenstein and all the Jews who signed his letter "Antisemites" for making the same comparisons?   
"If they really believed Israel guilty of heinous crimes they would say so and act accordingly."
Ho hum
China committed "heinous crimes" - these countries have "warm friendly relations with her.
CONSERVATIVES RELATIONS WITH CHINA
You have claimed "support for Israel - there is none anywhere - you invented it.
You have yet to even mention the mountain of criticism by these nations on Israel's behaviour - before you claim there is none, you have been given it.
It doesn't matter anyway - if Britain can trade with the Assad family and consider it a friend and close ally for as long as it did, knowing full well the atrocities and murders taking place there, it will trad with any murderous, human tights abusing regime.
2009
Your defence of Israel has now entered the realms of high farce
NO NATION HAS EVER OPENLY SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ATROCITIES OR WAR CRIMES AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED - WHERE HAVE THEY
SILENCE FROM POLITICIANS IS NOT SUPPORT OR EVIDENCE OF INNOCENCE,
Human rights groups throughout the world have condemned Israel as a possible war criminal.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 03:36 AM

It simply means that powerful and rather undemocratic pro-Israel lobbies, especially in the US (and it rubs off on every UK prime minister I can think of) make it impossible for governments to speak out.

That does not stand up Steve.
Countries like Ireland, Sweden, France, Australia, Canada, etc. do speak out against US policy all the time.
If they really believed Israel guilty of heinous crimes they would say so and act accordingly.
The FACT is they do not.

Well, in terms of what I perceive to be outrageous human rights abuses, I could (but won't) bemoan the amount of defence Israel gets here

That ignores the FACT that a huge number of countries with a far worse record of human rights abuse are NEVER criticised by all you Israel bashers.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 03:10 AM

'I don't give a flying fart if you call it "hateful"'
.,,.
Oh, for crying out loud, stop being so disingenuous and aggressive, Steve. Why should I, or anyone, give a flying unowot either what the gr8 Mr S Shaw gives? Who Shaw? What his authority in the matter? I take my authority in the matter from those who know a fair sight better than jumped-up self-opinionated him: ie the Canadian Government citing the EUMC, the professionals appointed by the authority of the nations of Europe to judge of the question.

Now, Jim knows all this, thank you v much just the same Mr S; and if he nevertheless goes on incessantly bleating "Nazi", then he knows he is deliberately falling foul of these declarations and judgements, and thus incurring the terrible risk of being denounced by me as 'antisemitic'; which is what he chooses to go on doing & being, so obviously he can live with it.

Do you think he welcomes the long proboscis of Mr Shaw S being poked in for his defence because he must be too helpless to look after himself? How patronising. He doesn't seem to be unduly fazed and lives with it, so what put-in of yours then, eh, Mr Prodnose Shaw?

So how about you just butt out!

Best regards as ever

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:35 PM

Frederik Willem de Klerk, former President of South Africa (1989-1994) and Nobel Peace Prize laureate in 1993: "It is unfair to call Israel an Apartheid state".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u-NeH0FHq0

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:52 PM

I don't normally bother with such things, but just thought I'd mention that Linda Todd, as anyone can read in her blogs, is a blatant propagandist for the Israeli regime. Nowt wrong with that, one supposes, except that the boobad-minnow refrained from mentioning that his source is, er, slightly less than unbiased, to put it mildly. Do google her, chaps and chapesses, and find out for yourself what a useless bloody fraud bobad truly is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:44 PM

Sure. And where did you copy and paste that from?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:28 PM

About Linda Todd
A Canadian girl with a decidedly unCanadian experience, Linda is a seeker of truth and enlightenment. Formerly married to a Palestinian journalist from Gaza, she lived there and told their story well… until she visited Israel and confirmed her suspicion that she had been exposed to way too much propaganda. As Linda continues to seek truth and enlightenment, she now tells a very different story….one that shows Israel for who she really is – a place of warmth and hospitality….and freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM

Finally Awake: From Pro Palestinian Activist To Staunch Israel Supporter

Posted by: Linda Todd June 1, 2014      

"While in Israel, I made a point of observing as many aspects of life as I could. With so much talk of "apartheid", I purposely looked for signs of this, and instead, noticed how casually people mixed together as they went about their daily lives.

My friends showed me their Israel – no hype, no propaganda, just real life.

I will never be the same.

Now I have to speak truth against the lies I know are being told. I have seen two sides, Gaza and Israel, and have no choice but to share my stories and observations in the hopes of waking others up who have believed the lies just as I did.

I am so happy and grateful to finally be awake!"

Israellycool

Why, yet another bobad-minnow post that does a big quote from somewhere-or-other but which does not contain the slightest input from yer man (or woman - how would I know...) himself. Typical. Just for variety, minnow, go on now, give us one of your Islamophobic one-liners.

Lazy git.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:04 PM

But if you think that this pertinacious use of "Nazi" on Jim's part is not 'hateful' or 'antisemitic', don't attack me. He is asking for such denunciations

No he is not. I don't give a flying fart if you call it hateful. I don't, as it happens. I call it rather too passionate a form of words for my taste and you won't catch me calling Israelis "Nazis" (not because I'm trying to be politically correct, rather that I don't think it), but hateful it isn't, in my book. In my book. But antisemitic it certainly is not. Antisemitism is an attack on Jewish people because they are Jewish people. That is simply not happening in this thread. If you really want to put that construction on it, then you'd better start examining your own prejudices. Start to be a little more honest about this. Perhaps view it from from a little more distance than you are currently doing. If you think Jim is a mortal threat to Judaism, then I'm severely wrong in thinking I've heard the last cuckoo this spring.