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BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Stringsinger 06 May 13 - 10:11 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 May 13 - 10:38 AM
Ebbie 06 May 13 - 10:59 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 May 13 - 12:58 PM
bobad 06 May 13 - 01:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 13 - 02:29 PM
Bill D 06 May 13 - 08:51 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 13 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 13 - 03:27 PM
bobad 11 May 13 - 03:59 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 13 - 04:03 PM
bobad 11 May 13 - 04:27 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 13 - 04:38 PM
bobad 11 May 13 - 04:52 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 13 - 07:16 PM
bobad 11 May 13 - 07:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 02:49 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 03:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 05:43 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 13 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 07:45 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 08:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 May 13 - 10:37 AM
Stringsinger 12 May 13 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 11:45 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 12:14 PM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 12:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 02:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 03:05 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 13 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 13 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 13 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 13 - 05:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 13 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 13 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 13 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Wente 13 May 13 - 03:11 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 03:26 PM
Stringsinger 13 May 13 - 04:38 PM
bobad 13 May 13 - 04:55 PM
Greg F. 13 May 13 - 06:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 13 - 06:46 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 06:52 PM
bobad 13 May 13 - 07:08 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 07:15 PM
Greg F. 13 May 13 - 09:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 13 - 04:30 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 13 - 04:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 13 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 13 - 07:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 07:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 07:49 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 13 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 13 - 08:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 08:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 13 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 13 - 10:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 14 May 13 - 03:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 03:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 May 13 - 08:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 13 - 02:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 May 13 - 04:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 May 13 - 06:56 AM
bobad 15 May 13 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 13 - 08:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 13 - 08:10 AM
Stringsinger 15 May 13 - 09:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 13 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 13 - 10:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 May 13 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 13 - 12:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 13 - 04:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 13 - 05:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 May 13 - 08:33 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 13 - 02:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 13 - 03:02 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 13 - 05:46 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 13 - 05:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 13 - 06:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 13 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 13 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 13 - 08:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 13 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 13 - 10:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 13 - 10:25 AM
GUEST 16 May 13 - 10:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 13 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 13 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 13 - 09:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 May 13 - 10:44 AM
Stringsinger 18 May 13 - 11:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 13 - 02:48 PM
Stringsinger 19 May 13 - 10:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 13 - 12:28 PM
Stringsinger 19 May 13 - 02:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 13 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 13 - 03:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 13 - 04:05 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 13 - 04:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 13 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 13 - 06:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 13 - 06:27 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 13 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 13 - 07:49 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 13 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 13 - 09:25 AM
Stringsinger 20 May 13 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 13 - 10:55 AM
beardedbruce 20 May 13 - 11:02 AM
beardedbruce 20 May 13 - 11:07 AM
Greg F. 20 May 13 - 11:07 AM
beardedbruce 20 May 13 - 11:08 AM
beardedbruce 20 May 13 - 11:12 AM
beardedbruce 20 May 13 - 11:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 13 - 11:41 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM
beardedbruce 20 May 13 - 02:47 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 13 - 03:32 PM
Stringsinger 20 May 13 - 03:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 13 - 04:38 PM
Jim Carroll 21 May 13 - 04:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 May 13 - 05:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 May 13 - 05:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 May 13 - 05:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 13 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 13 - 07:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 May 13 - 07:13 AM
Jim Carroll 21 May 13 - 08:25 AM
Stringsinger 21 May 13 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 13 - 10:36 AM
bobad 21 May 13 - 10:47 AM
bobad 21 May 13 - 10:55 AM
Jim Carroll 21 May 13 - 11:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 13 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 13 - 11:51 AM
Jim Carroll 21 May 13 - 12:05 PM
bobad 21 May 13 - 12:15 PM
Jim Carroll 21 May 13 - 01:27 PM
bobad 21 May 13 - 01:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 13 - 03:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 May 13 - 06:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 May 13 - 07:10 PM
bobad 21 May 13 - 07:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 13 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 13 - 02:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 13 - 03:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 13 - 03:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 May 13 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 13 - 05:45 AM
Stringsinger 22 May 13 - 10:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 13 - 11:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 May 13 - 12:10 PM
bobad 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 May 13 - 01:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 May 13 - 01:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 13 - 03:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 03:03 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 13 - 03:40 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 13 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 05:44 AM
bobad 23 May 13 - 06:18 AM
Greg F. 23 May 13 - 08:29 AM
Stringsinger 23 May 13 - 11:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 02:36 PM
bobad 23 May 13 - 05:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 May 13 - 06:09 AM
bobad 26 May 13 - 08:06 AM
bobad 26 May 13 - 07:47 PM
bobad 26 May 13 - 08:11 PM
bobad 27 May 13 - 01:29 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 May 13 - 04:51 PM
bobad 02 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Jun 13 - 03:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Jun 13 - 03:38 PM
bobad 02 Jun 13 - 04:29 PM
Greg F. 03 Jun 13 - 08:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 13 - 09:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 13 - 06:47 AM
bobad 04 Jun 13 - 06:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 13 - 06:43 PM
bobad 04 Jun 13 - 06:55 PM
bobad 30 Jul 13 - 08:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jul 13 - 09:32 AM
bobad 01 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM
Bobert 01 Aug 13 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 13 - 08:29 AM
Greg F. 06 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 13 - 10:19 AM
bobad 06 Aug 13 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 13 - 11:03 AM
Greg F. 06 Aug 13 - 11:25 AM
bobad 06 Aug 13 - 11:59 AM
Greg F. 06 Aug 13 - 12:14 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 13 - 02:26 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 13 - 03:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 13 - 03:22 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 13 - 03:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 13 - 03:54 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 13 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 13 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 13 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 13 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 13 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 13 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM
bobad 07 Aug 13 - 09:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Aug 13 - 10:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 13 - 02:24 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 13 - 06:57 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 13 - 08:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 13 - 12:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 13 - 12:05 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 13 - 02:38 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 13 - 02:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 13 - 03:13 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 13 - 04:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Aug 13 - 05:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Aug 13 - 05:23 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 13 - 05:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 13 - 07:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Aug 13 - 08:09 AM
Greg F. 08 Aug 13 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 13 - 11:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 13 - 11:39 AM
Greg F. 08 Aug 13 - 11:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Aug 13 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 13 - 04:15 PM
bobad 09 Aug 13 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 13 - 03:44 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 13 - 04:27 AM
GUEST 10 Aug 13 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,SJL 10 Aug 13 - 05:19 PM
Greg F. 10 Aug 13 - 07:47 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 13 - 06:08 AM
bobad 11 Aug 13 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 13 - 07:46 AM
bobad 11 Aug 13 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM
bobad 11 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM
GUEST 11 Aug 13 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 13 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,SJL 11 Aug 13 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,SJL 11 Aug 13 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 13 - 04:09 PM
bobad 11 Aug 13 - 05:32 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Aug 13 - 06:20 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Aug 13 - 06:20 PM
bobad 11 Aug 13 - 06:41 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Aug 13 - 06:46 PM
bobad 11 Aug 13 - 07:17 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 13 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 13 - 04:28 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 13 - 05:04 AM
bobad 12 Aug 13 - 09:32 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 13 - 10:41 AM
bobad 12 Aug 13 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 13 - 10:56 AM
bobad 12 Aug 13 - 11:17 AM
Greg F. 12 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 13 - 06:20 PM
bobad 12 Aug 13 - 06:46 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 13 - 08:42 PM
bobad 12 Aug 13 - 08:50 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Aug 13 - 04:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Aug 13 - 05:42 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 13 - 05:49 AM
bobad 13 Aug 13 - 07:15 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 13 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 13 - 11:35 AM
bobad 13 Aug 13 - 11:49 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 13 - 11:57 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 13 - 12:02 PM
Greg F. 13 Aug 13 - 12:06 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 13 - 01:48 PM
Greg F. 13 Aug 13 - 02:06 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 13 - 05:08 PM
Roger the Skiffler 14 Aug 13 - 04:50 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 13 - 05:41 AM
bobad 14 Aug 13 - 08:58 AM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 13 - 11:14 AM
bobad 14 Aug 13 - 11:17 AM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 12:00 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 14 Aug 13 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Aug 13 - 01:37 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 01:41 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 01:46 PM
Greg F. 14 Aug 13 - 02:18 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 02:22 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 02:24 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 02:26 PM
Greg F. 14 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 13 - 03:06 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM
bobad 14 Aug 13 - 03:27 PM
bobad 14 Aug 13 - 04:36 PM
Greg F. 14 Aug 13 - 06:03 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 13 - 06:45 PM
Greg F. 14 Aug 13 - 08:02 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 13 - 08:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Aug 13 - 08:37 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Aug 13 - 08:50 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 13 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 13 - 04:12 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Aug 13 - 06:05 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Aug 13 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 13 - 06:18 AM
bobad 15 Aug 13 - 08:27 AM
Greg F. 15 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 13 - 09:26 AM
bobad 15 Aug 13 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 13 - 10:33 AM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 13 - 11:07 AM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM
bobad 15 Aug 13 - 11:34 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 13 - 11:46 AM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 13 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 13 - 01:35 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 13 - 01:57 PM
Greg F. 15 Aug 13 - 02:08 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 13 - 02:23 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 13 - 02:27 PM
Greg F. 15 Aug 13 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Aug 13 - 05:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Aug 13 - 07:47 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Aug 13 - 07:51 AM
beardedbruce 16 Aug 13 - 08:28 AM
beardedbruce 16 Aug 13 - 08:58 AM
beardedbruce 16 Aug 13 - 09:07 AM
bobad 16 Aug 13 - 10:26 AM
bobad 16 Aug 13 - 10:31 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 13 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Aug 13 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM
beardedbruce 16 Aug 13 - 11:57 AM
bobad 16 Aug 13 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Aug 13 - 04:10 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 13 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Aug 13 - 06:24 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Aug 13 - 08:27 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Aug 13 - 08:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Aug 13 - 10:52 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 13 - 03:07 AM
bobad 17 Aug 13 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 13 - 08:00 AM
bobad 17 Aug 13 - 08:39 AM
bobad 17 Aug 13 - 08:54 AM
bobad 17 Aug 13 - 09:46 AM
Greg F. 17 Aug 13 - 09:48 AM
bobad 17 Aug 13 - 10:05 AM
bobad 17 Aug 13 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 13 - 10:37 AM
Stringsinger 17 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 13 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Aug 13 - 12:27 PM
bobad 17 Aug 13 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Aug 13 - 05:49 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 13 - 04:35 AM
bobad 18 Aug 13 - 08:34 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 13 - 09:35 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM
bobad 18 Aug 13 - 11:21 AM
bobad 18 Aug 13 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Aug 13 - 02:13 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 13 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Aug 13 - 03:47 PM
Stringsinger 18 Aug 13 - 04:33 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 13 - 04:36 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 13 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Aug 13 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Aug 13 - 11:32 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 13 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 13 - 05:55 AM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 13 - 08:15 AM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM
bobad 19 Aug 13 - 09:06 AM
Greg F. 19 Aug 13 - 09:26 AM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 13 - 09:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Aug 13 - 12:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Aug 13 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Aug 13 - 12:57 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Aug 13 - 12:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Aug 13 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Aug 13 - 01:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Aug 13 - 10:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Aug 13 - 02:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Aug 13 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Aug 13 - 07:30 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Aug 13 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Aug 13 - 10:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Aug 13 - 06:40 AM
bobad 24 Aug 13 - 07:46 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Aug 13 - 10:16 AM
bobad 24 Aug 13 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 13 - 10:39 AM
bobad 24 Aug 13 - 11:05 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 13 - 11:40 AM
bobad 24 Aug 13 - 11:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Aug 13 - 01:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Aug 13 - 01:42 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 13 - 06:12 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 13 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Aug 13 - 11:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 13 - 03:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 13 - 03:27 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Aug 13 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 13 - 07:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 13 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Aug 13 - 11:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 13 - 03:47 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 13 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 13 - 08:22 AM
bobad 27 Aug 13 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 13 - 08:43 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 13 - 01:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Aug 13 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 13 - 02:08 PM
beardedbruce 27 Aug 13 - 02:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Aug 13 - 03:05 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 13 - 03:53 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 13 - 03:58 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 13 - 04:07 PM
beardedbruce 27 Aug 13 - 04:15 PM
Greg F. 27 Aug 13 - 06:18 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Aug 13 - 02:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Aug 13 - 05:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Aug 13 - 05:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 13 - 06:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 13 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,Teribus 28 Aug 13 - 07:19 AM
beardedbruce 28 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 13 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM
beardedbruce 28 Aug 13 - 08:38 AM
bobad 28 Aug 13 - 09:25 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 13 - 04:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 13 - 05:59 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 13 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,Teribus 29 Aug 13 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Aug 13 - 04:23 AM
Teribus 29 Aug 13 - 07:01 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 13 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Aug 13 - 07:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Aug 13 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Aug 13 - 08:47 AM
Teribus 29 Aug 13 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Aug 13 - 11:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Aug 13 - 02:14 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Aug 13 - 02:58 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 13 - 03:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Aug 13 - 03:59 PM
beardedbruce 29 Aug 13 - 04:03 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 13 - 07:19 PM
bobad 29 Aug 13 - 07:55 PM
Bobert 29 Aug 13 - 08:06 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Aug 13 - 08:11 PM
bobad 29 Aug 13 - 08:19 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Aug 13 - 08:38 PM
Bobert 29 Aug 13 - 08:48 PM
bobad 29 Aug 13 - 09:02 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Aug 13 - 01:58 AM
Teribus 30 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM
bobad 30 Aug 13 - 09:17 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Aug 13 - 11:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Aug 13 - 11:42 AM
beardedbruce 30 Aug 13 - 11:44 AM
beardedbruce 30 Aug 13 - 12:11 PM
Greg F. 30 Aug 13 - 01:00 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Aug 13 - 01:50 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Aug 13 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Aug 13 - 04:03 PM
bobad 30 Aug 13 - 04:43 PM
bobad 30 Aug 13 - 05:43 PM
Greg F. 30 Aug 13 - 06:13 PM
bobad 30 Aug 13 - 06:28 PM
bobad 30 Aug 13 - 06:30 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Aug 13 - 07:58 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Aug 13 - 04:32 AM
bobad 17 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM
bobad 19 Dec 13 - 08:16 AM
bobad 21 Dec 13 - 05:38 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 13 - 10:18 AM
bobad 23 Dec 13 - 10:35 AM
bobad 23 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM
Greg F. 23 Dec 13 - 12:24 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 13 - 12:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 13 - 01:42 AM
bobad 24 Dec 13 - 08:16 AM
Greg F. 24 Dec 13 - 12:44 PM
bobad 24 Dec 13 - 08:27 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Dec 13 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Dec 13 - 08:13 AM
bobad 28 Dec 13 - 09:45 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Dec 13 - 09:59 AM
bobad 28 Dec 13 - 11:23 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Dec 13 - 12:37 PM
bobad 28 Dec 13 - 01:45 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Dec 13 - 04:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Dec 13 - 05:01 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Dec 13 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Dec 13 - 07:13 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 13 - 08:09 AM
bobad 29 Dec 13 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Dec 13 - 11:52 AM
Greg F. 29 Dec 13 - 12:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Dec 13 - 01:47 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Dec 13 - 02:11 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Dec 13 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Dec 13 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 29 Dec 13 - 07:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 02:31 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Dec 13 - 03:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 05:58 AM
bobad 30 Dec 13 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 07:45 AM
bobad 31 Dec 13 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 31 Dec 13 - 07:43 PM
bobad 01 Jan 14 - 05:56 PM
bobad 14 Jan 14 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 14 Jan 14 - 04:01 PM
bobad 20 Jan 14 - 09:11 AM
bobad 25 Jan 14 - 10:22 AM
bobad 27 Jan 14 - 01:48 PM
Greg F. 27 Jan 14 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jan 14 - 06:49 PM
bobad 01 Feb 14 - 05:01 PM
Joe_F 01 Feb 14 - 06:05 PM
Stringsinger 02 Feb 14 - 12:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 14 - 03:26 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Feb 14 - 05:05 AM
bobad 03 Feb 14 - 09:33 AM
Greg F. 03 Feb 14 - 09:51 AM
Stringsinger 03 Feb 14 - 11:16 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Feb 14 - 12:15 PM
bobad 03 Feb 14 - 02:29 PM
Greg F. 03 Feb 14 - 05:19 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Feb 14 - 06:26 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Feb 14 - 06:50 AM
Greg F. 04 Feb 14 - 09:38 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Feb 14 - 10:30 AM
Stringsinger 04 Feb 14 - 11:37 AM
Greg F. 04 Feb 14 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 14 - 02:59 PM
Greg F. 04 Feb 14 - 03:23 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 04 Feb 14 - 03:56 PM
bobad 04 Feb 14 - 04:21 PM
Greg F. 04 Feb 14 - 04:52 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 14 - 03:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 14 - 03:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 14 - 03:51 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 14 - 05:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 14 - 06:40 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 14 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 14 - 01:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 14 - 02:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 14 - 03:04 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 14 - 03:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 14 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 05 Feb 14 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 05 Feb 14 - 05:34 PM
GUEST 05 Feb 14 - 05:43 PM
GUEST 05 Feb 14 - 05:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 14 - 01:09 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Feb 14 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 14 - 04:21 AM
Stringsinger 06 Feb 14 - 10:59 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Feb 14 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 14 - 12:22 PM
bobad 06 Feb 14 - 01:50 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Feb 14 - 02:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 14 - 02:48 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Feb 14 - 05:39 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Feb 14 - 05:41 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 14 - 02:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 14 - 03:01 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Feb 14 - 03:42 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Feb 14 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 14 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 14 - 04:56 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Feb 14 - 05:11 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Feb 14 - 05:23 AM
bobad 07 Feb 14 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 14 - 08:57 AM
bobad 07 Feb 14 - 11:09 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 14 - 11:32 AM
bobad 07 Feb 14 - 11:44 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Feb 14 - 05:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 14 - 01:50 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 14 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 14 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 14 - 04:48 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 14 - 04:48 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Feb 14 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 14 - 06:55 AM
bobad 08 Feb 14 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 14 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 14 - 10:34 AM
Stringsinger 08 Feb 14 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 14 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 14 - 01:57 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 14 - 04:14 PM
bobad 08 Feb 14 - 05:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 14 - 01:56 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 14 - 03:22 AM
bobad 13 Feb 14 - 08:53 AM
bobad 15 Feb 14 - 05:41 PM
Stringsinger 16 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 14 - 01:28 PM
Greg F. 16 Feb 14 - 01:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 14 - 01:54 PM
Greg F. 16 Feb 14 - 02:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 14 - 01:00 AM
bobad 17 Feb 14 - 08:09 AM
Greg F. 17 Feb 14 - 12:17 PM
bobad 17 Feb 14 - 12:59 PM
Greg F. 17 Feb 14 - 01:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 14 - 01:50 PM
Greg F. 17 Feb 14 - 05:07 PM
bobad 17 Feb 14 - 05:08 PM
Greg F. 17 Feb 14 - 06:15 PM
bobad 18 Feb 14 - 08:07 AM
bobad 24 Feb 14 - 07:34 AM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 05:08 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 14 - 03:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 14 - 03:29 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 14 - 07:07 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Mar 14 - 09:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 14 - 03:28 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 14 - 03:36 PM
Greg F. 01 Apr 14 - 01:22 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Apr 14 - 09:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 02:49 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 06:02 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Apr 14 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 07:16 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Apr 14 - 07:26 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 08:36 AM
Musket 02 Apr 14 - 08:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 02 Apr 14 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 02 Apr 14 - 03:00 PM
bobad 02 Apr 14 - 04:24 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 04:45 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 14 - 04:47 PM
Greg F. 02 Apr 14 - 05:08 PM
bobad 02 Apr 14 - 05:22 PM
Greg F. 02 Apr 14 - 05:49 PM
bobad 02 Apr 14 - 06:33 PM
Greg F. 02 Apr 14 - 06:52 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 14 - 08:30 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 04:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 06:11 AM
bobad 03 Apr 14 - 07:06 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 07:14 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 14 - 07:23 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 07:27 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 14 - 07:48 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 08:00 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 08:29 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 14 - 08:39 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 08:51 AM
Greg F. 03 Apr 14 - 08:53 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 08:55 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 14 - 08:57 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 09:40 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 10:07 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 10:37 AM
bobad 03 Apr 14 - 10:52 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 14 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 11:06 AM
Greg F. 03 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 12:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 03:32 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 03:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 04:00 PM
Greg F. 03 Apr 14 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Stringsinger 03 Apr 14 - 05:21 PM
Greg F. 03 Apr 14 - 05:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 14 - 12:55 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 03:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 14 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 06:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 14 - 06:29 AM
bobad 04 Apr 14 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 10:07 AM
Greg F. 04 Apr 14 - 12:23 PM
bobad 04 Apr 14 - 06:24 PM
Greg F. 04 Apr 14 - 06:28 PM
bobad 04 Apr 14 - 06:33 PM
Greg F. 04 Apr 14 - 06:36 PM
bobad 04 Apr 14 - 06:40 PM
Greg F. 04 Apr 14 - 06:49 PM
bobad 04 Apr 14 - 06:59 PM
Greg F. 04 Apr 14 - 07:48 PM
Stringsinger 04 Apr 14 - 07:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 14 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 14 - 04:46 AM
bobad 05 Apr 14 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 14 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 14 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM
Greg F. 05 Apr 14 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 14 - 12:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 14 - 12:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 14 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 14 - 01:59 PM
Greg F. 05 Apr 14 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 14 - 03:06 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 14 - 03:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 14 - 03:29 PM
Greg F. 05 Apr 14 - 05:40 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Apr 14 - 05:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 14 - 10:21 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 02:45 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Apr 14 - 03:09 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 06:06 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Apr 14 - 06:38 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 06:50 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 07:15 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 06 Apr 14 - 08:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 08:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 14 - 08:44 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 06 Apr 14 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 11:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 14 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 01:19 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Apr 14 - 01:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 14 - 03:06 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Apr 14 - 05:32 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Apr 14 - 05:51 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 14 - 03:22 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 14 - 08:43 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Apr 14 - 08:57 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Apr 14 - 09:08 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 14 - 09:29 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Apr 14 - 09:39 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Apr 14 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 14 - 10:37 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Apr 14 - 10:55 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Apr 14 - 10:57 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 14 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 14 - 12:03 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Apr 14 - 07:59 AM
beardedbruce 09 Apr 14 - 08:18 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 14 - 08:21 AM
beardedbruce 09 Apr 14 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 14 - 09:23 AM
beardedbruce 09 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Apr 14 - 11:53 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM
Greg F. 09 Apr 14 - 12:03 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 14 - 12:10 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Apr 14 - 12:35 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Apr 14 - 01:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Apr 14 - 07:15 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 14 - 03:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Apr 14 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 14 - 05:59 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Apr 14 - 07:34 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 07:48 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 14 - 09:17 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 09:31 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM
Greg F. 10 Apr 14 - 10:02 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 10:14 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 10:44 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 10:53 AM
bobad 10 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM
Greg F. 10 Apr 14 - 11:45 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 11:48 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM
Greg F. 10 Apr 14 - 12:04 PM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM
Stringsinger 10 Apr 14 - 12:42 PM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 14 - 12:45 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 14 - 01:04 PM
Greg F. 10 Apr 14 - 01:30 PM
bobad 23 May 14 - 10:57 AM
bobad 30 May 14 - 10:35 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 14 - 01:19 PM
bobad 30 May 14 - 03:55 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 14 - 07:17 PM
Jim Carroll 31 May 14 - 03:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 14 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 14 - 05:56 AM
bobad 31 May 14 - 06:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 14 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 14 - 07:44 AM
bobad 31 May 14 - 09:28 AM
Greg F. 31 May 14 - 09:50 AM
bobad 03 Jun 14 - 11:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 08:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 09:15 AM
bobad 04 Jun 14 - 09:30 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 11:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 11:22 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 12:16 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 12:29 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 12:35 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 12:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 02:20 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 03:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 03:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 14 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 14 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 04:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 04:52 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 14 - 06:50 AM
beardedbruce 05 Jun 14 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 07:49 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 14 - 08:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM
Musket 05 Jun 14 - 11:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jun 14 - 02:12 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 02:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 14 - 04:16 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 04:22 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 04:40 AM
bobad 06 Jun 14 - 05:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 14 - 05:36 AM
bobad 06 Jun 14 - 05:44 AM
bobad 06 Jun 14 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 06:52 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jun 14 - 07:16 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 08:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 14 - 09:20 AM
Musket 06 Jun 14 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 10:04 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 14 - 10:31 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 14 - 10:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 14 - 11:10 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM
beardedbruce 06 Jun 14 - 02:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 14 - 02:57 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 03:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 14 - 03:40 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,# 06 Jun 14 - 03:52 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 14 - 08:33 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 07 Jun 14 - 12:16 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 12:59 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 02:21 AM
GUEST,Musket 07 Jun 14 - 03:08 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 03:29 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 03:53 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 04:08 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 04:30 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 05:16 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 05:24 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 07:36 AM
Greg F. 07 Jun 14 - 07:46 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 07:52 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 07:57 AM
Greg F. 07 Jun 14 - 09:11 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 14 - 10:57 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 14 - 02:32 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 14 - 04:20 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 14 - 04:43 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 14 - 04:50 PM
bobad 07 Jun 14 - 05:32 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 05:35 PM
Greg F. 07 Jun 14 - 07:33 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 14 - 08:04 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM
bobad 07 Jun 14 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 14 - 08:44 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 14 - 08:52 PM
bobad 07 Jun 14 - 09:35 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 14 - 03:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 03:36 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 14 - 04:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Musket 08 Jun 14 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 14 - 05:31 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 14 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 14 - 06:06 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 14 - 06:13 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 14 - 07:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 07:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 07:50 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 14 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 08:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 14 - 09:26 AM
Musket 08 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 10:03 AM
Musket 08 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 11:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 14 - 12:02 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 14 - 12:32 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 14 - 01:37 PM
Musket 08 Jun 14 - 02:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 04:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 04:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 04:21 PM
Musket 08 Jun 14 - 04:44 PM
bobad 08 Jun 14 - 04:54 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 14 - 05:01 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 14 - 05:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 14 - 05:28 PM
bobad 08 Jun 14 - 05:38 PM
bobad 08 Jun 14 - 05:46 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 14 - 05:52 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 14 - 06:52 PM
bobad 08 Jun 14 - 07:24 PM
bobad 08 Jun 14 - 07:28 PM
bobad 08 Jun 14 - 07:31 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 14 - 07:44 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 14 - 09:08 PM
bobad 08 Jun 14 - 09:22 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 01:24 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 14 - 04:18 AM
Musket 09 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 09:49 AM
Greg F. 09 Jun 14 - 10:38 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 14 - 11:33 AM
Greg F. 09 Jun 14 - 11:54 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 14 - 11:55 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 14 - 12:00 PM
Greg F. 09 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM
Musket 09 Jun 14 - 12:32 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 03:16 PM
Musket 09 Jun 14 - 03:19 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 14 - 03:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 14 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,Musket 10 Jun 14 - 03:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 14 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 14 - 04:25 AM
GUEST,Musket 10 Jun 14 - 08:36 AM
Teribus 10 Jun 14 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 14 - 09:19 AM
Musket 10 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 14 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Musket 10 Jun 14 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 10 Jun 14 - 05:22 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 14 - 07:51 PM
Greg F. 10 Jun 14 - 09:08 PM
Teribus 11 Jun 14 - 01:41 AM
GUEST,Musket 11 Jun 14 - 03:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 14 - 03:18 AM
GUEST,Musket 11 Jun 14 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 14 - 04:50 AM
Musket 11 Jun 14 - 04:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 14 - 07:15 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 14 - 07:45 AM
Musket 11 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 14 - 09:34 AM
Musket 11 Jun 14 - 10:00 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 14 - 02:40 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 14 - 02:52 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 14 - 03:10 PM
Greg F. 11 Jun 14 - 04:03 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 14 - 04:06 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 14 - 04:07 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 14 - 09:25 PM
Teribus 12 Jun 14 - 03:44 AM
Musket 12 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM
Teribus 12 Jun 14 - 06:22 AM
beardedbruce 12 Jun 14 - 07:52 AM
Musket 12 Jun 14 - 09:29 AM
beardedbruce 12 Jun 14 - 11:03 AM
beardedbruce 12 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM
Greg F. 12 Jun 14 - 11:34 AM
beardedbruce 12 Jun 14 - 11:48 AM
Jeri 12 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM
Greg F. 12 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM
Greg F. 12 Jun 14 - 12:28 PM
Jeri 12 Jun 14 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Musket 13 Jun 14 - 01:16 AM
Greg F. 13 Jun 14 - 09:51 AM
bobad 15 Jun 14 - 12:28 PM
Teribus 16 Jun 14 - 09:30 AM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM
Musket 16 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM
Teribus 16 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM
Teribus 16 Jun 14 - 10:19 AM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 10:25 AM
Musket 16 Jun 14 - 10:39 AM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 10:39 AM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 10:50 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM
Stringsinger 16 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 11:15 AM
Musket 16 Jun 14 - 11:42 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 14 - 11:51 AM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 12:35 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 12:55 PM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 01:02 PM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 01:13 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 01:27 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 14 - 01:36 PM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 02:22 PM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 04:10 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 04:30 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 04:44 PM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 04:54 PM
Musket 16 Jun 14 - 04:54 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 05:08 PM
Teribus 17 Jun 14 - 01:55 AM
bobad 17 Jun 14 - 05:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 14 - 05:02 AM
Greg F. 18 Jun 14 - 10:54 AM
bobad 18 Jun 14 - 11:04 AM
Teribus 19 Jun 14 - 01:13 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Jun 14 - 03:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 14 - 03:56 AM
bobad 19 Jun 14 - 06:56 AM
Musket 19 Jun 14 - 07:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 14 - 07:44 AM
bobad 19 Jun 14 - 07:50 AM
Musket 19 Jun 14 - 10:52 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 19 Jun 14 - 12:27 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 14 - 01:13 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 19 Jun 14 - 03:18 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 14 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Troubadour. 19 Jun 14 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Troubadour. 19 Jun 14 - 06:31 PM
GUEST,Troubadour. 19 Jun 14 - 06:40 PM
GUEST 19 Jun 14 - 06:47 PM
bobad 19 Jun 14 - 07:24 PM
Greg F. 19 Jun 14 - 08:23 PM
bobad 19 Jun 14 - 08:58 PM
Greg F. 19 Jun 14 - 09:59 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 14 - 12:51 AM
Musket 20 Jun 14 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jun 14 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 14 - 08:42 AM
bobad 20 Jun 14 - 08:43 AM
Greg F. 20 Jun 14 - 09:46 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 14 - 10:03 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 14 - 10:08 AM
bobad 20 Jun 14 - 10:10 AM
Musket 20 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 20 Jun 14 - 12:08 PM
bobad 20 Jun 14 - 12:30 PM
Musket 20 Jun 14 - 12:58 PM
Greg F. 20 Jun 14 - 01:00 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 20 Jun 14 - 01:38 PM
bobad 20 Jun 14 - 01:58 PM
bobad 20 Jun 14 - 02:04 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 14 - 02:10 PM
Greg F. 20 Jun 14 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 20 Jun 14 - 06:54 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 20 Jun 14 - 08:55 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 14 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,Musket 21 Jun 14 - 01:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 14 - 05:18 AM
Musket 21 Jun 14 - 07:19 AM
bobad 21 Jun 14 - 08:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 14 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Troubadour. 21 Jun 14 - 09:22 AM
Greg F. 21 Jun 14 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 14 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Troubadour. 21 Jun 14 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Troubadour. 21 Jun 14 - 09:47 AM
bobad 21 Jun 14 - 09:52 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 14 - 10:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 14 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,Troubadour. 21 Jun 14 - 10:32 AM
bobad 21 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM
bobad 21 Jun 14 - 11:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 14 - 11:40 AM
Greg F. 21 Jun 14 - 01:08 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 21 Jun 14 - 04:36 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 21 Jun 14 - 05:15 PM
bobad 21 Jun 14 - 05:27 PM
Greg F. 21 Jun 14 - 08:15 PM
Greg F. 21 Jun 14 - 08:17 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 21 Jun 14 - 08:32 PM
Stringsinger 22 Jun 14 - 08:47 AM
Greg F. 22 Jun 14 - 12:22 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jun 14 - 01:08 PM
Greg F. 22 Jun 14 - 01:44 PM
Teribus 23 Jun 14 - 09:07 AM
Greg F. 23 Jun 14 - 09:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 14 - 10:44 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Jun 14 - 11:39 AM
Greg F. 23 Jun 14 - 12:42 PM
bobad 23 Jun 14 - 01:22 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Jun 14 - 02:20 PM
Greg F. 23 Jun 14 - 02:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 14 - 02:47 PM
Greg F. 23 Jun 14 - 02:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 14 - 03:04 PM
Greg F. 23 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 14 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Musket 23 Jun 14 - 06:07 PM
Greg F. 23 Jun 14 - 06:15 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM
Greg F. 23 Jun 14 - 08:08 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Jun 14 - 09:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 14 - 01:52 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 Jun 14 - 02:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 14 - 04:00 AM
bobad 24 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM
Greg F. 24 Jun 14 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 14 - 01:54 PM
Greg F. 24 Jun 14 - 05:13 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 14 - 01:40 AM
bobad 25 Jun 14 - 08:32 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 14 - 08:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 14 - 09:11 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 14 - 09:25 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 14 - 10:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 14 - 10:13 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 14 - 10:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 14 - 10:49 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 25 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 14 - 12:13 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 25 Jun 14 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,Troubadour. 25 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Troubadour. 25 Jun 14 - 06:44 PM
bobad 25 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM
Greg F. 25 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM
bobad 25 Jun 14 - 08:20 PM
Greg F. 25 Jun 14 - 09:07 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 25 Jun 14 - 09:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 14 - 02:16 AM
Musket 26 Jun 14 - 03:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 14 - 04:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 14 - 06:26 AM
Teribus 26 Jun 14 - 07:58 AM
Greg F. 26 Jun 14 - 08:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 14 - 10:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 14 - 11:02 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM
Musket 27 Jun 14 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 14 - 12:00 PM
Greg F. 27 Jun 14 - 05:33 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jun 14 - 05:50 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jun 14 - 05:56 PM
Greg F. 27 Jun 14 - 06:39 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jun 14 - 08:31 PM
Greg F. 27 Jun 14 - 10:07 PM
GUEST,Musket 28 Jun 14 - 02:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 14 - 03:59 AM
Musket 28 Jun 14 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 14 - 05:49 AM
bobad 28 Jun 14 - 06:22 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 28 Jun 14 - 12:41 PM
Greg F. 28 Jun 14 - 03:01 PM
Musket 28 Jun 14 - 03:24 PM
bobad 28 Jun 14 - 03:36 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 28 Jun 14 - 05:11 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Jun 14 - 06:20 PM
Greg F. 28 Jun 14 - 06:50 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 14 - 07:10 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 14 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 28 Jun 14 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 28 Jun 14 - 08:06 PM
bobad 28 Jun 14 - 08:36 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 28 Jun 14 - 08:42 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Jun 14 - 12:09 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 Jun 14 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Musket 29 Jun 14 - 02:37 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jun 14 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 14 - 04:50 PM
bobad 29 Jun 14 - 05:20 PM
bobad 30 Jun 14 - 02:03 PM
Greg F. 30 Jun 14 - 05:05 PM
bobad 30 Jun 14 - 05:11 PM
bobad 30 Jun 14 - 05:18 PM
Greg F. 30 Jun 14 - 05:42 PM
bobad 30 Jun 14 - 05:42 PM
GUEST 30 Jun 14 - 05:54 PM
bobad 30 Jun 14 - 06:29 PM
Greg F. 30 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM
bobad 30 Jun 14 - 07:19 PM
GUEST 30 Jun 14 - 08:23 PM
bobad 30 Jun 14 - 08:28 PM
Greg F. 30 Jun 14 - 10:06 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 30 Jun 14 - 11:57 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Jul 14 - 12:24 AM
Teribus 01 Jul 14 - 02:17 AM
bobad 01 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM
Greg F. 01 Jul 14 - 07:27 AM
bobad 01 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM
bobad 01 Jul 14 - 08:01 AM
Greg F. 01 Jul 14 - 10:27 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM
bobad 01 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM
bobad 01 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 14 - 02:38 PM
beardedbruce 02 Jul 14 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 14 - 03:13 PM
Greg F. 02 Jul 14 - 06:01 PM
bobad 02 Jul 14 - 07:05 PM
bobad 02 Jul 14 - 09:12 PM
bobad 02 Jul 14 - 09:32 PM
Greg F. 02 Jul 14 - 10:09 PM
bobad 02 Jul 14 - 10:59 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 12:59 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 05:47 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 05:53 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 05:55 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 05:57 AM
Musket 03 Jul 14 - 06:08 AM
bobad 03 Jul 14 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 07:16 AM
Teribus 03 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 09:42 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM
Greg F. 03 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM
beardedbruce 03 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 11:09 AM
Greg F. 03 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 02:07 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 03:36 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM
bobad 03 Jul 14 - 04:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 04:56 PM
Greg F. 03 Jul 14 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 Jul 14 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 Jul 14 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 Jul 14 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 Jul 14 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 Jul 14 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 Jul 14 - 07:55 PM
bobad 03 Jul 14 - 08:28 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Jul 14 - 12:05 AM
Teribus 04 Jul 14 - 01:24 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 03:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 03:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 03:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 04:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 05:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 08:34 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 09:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 02:50 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 03:07 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Jul 14 - 03:22 PM
bobad 04 Jul 14 - 03:38 PM
Greg F. 04 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 14 - 02:51 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 14 - 06:50 AM
Greg F. 05 Jul 14 - 10:35 AM
Stringsinger 05 Jul 14 - 04:33 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM
GUEST 06 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM
Teribus 07 Jul 14 - 01:48 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 14 - 02:15 AM
bobad 07 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM
bobad 07 Jul 14 - 09:07 AM
bobad 07 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM
Stringsinger 07 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM
bobad 07 Jul 14 - 02:32 PM
bobad 07 Jul 14 - 05:45 PM
bobad 07 Jul 14 - 09:11 PM
Teribus 08 Jul 14 - 01:48 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 14 - 02:22 AM
Teribus 08 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM
Ringer 08 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 07:51 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 14 - 09:34 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 09:37 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 14 - 02:28 AM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 07:37 AM
bobad 10 Jul 14 - 07:47 AM
bobad 10 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM
bobad 10 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 12:00 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 12:56 PM
bobad 10 Jul 14 - 01:01 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 01:18 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 01:20 PM
bobad 10 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 01:31 PM
bobad 10 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM
bobad 10 Jul 14 - 01:40 PM
bobad 10 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 02:42 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 02:53 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jul 14 - 06:54 AM
beardedbruce 11 Jul 14 - 08:15 AM
bobad 11 Jul 14 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 14 - 08:53 AM
beardedbruce 11 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM
Greg F. 11 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM
Stringsinger 11 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM
beardedbruce 11 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM
Greg F. 11 Jul 14 - 02:06 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jul 14 - 02:20 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM
Greg F. 11 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jul 14 - 03:32 PM
Stringsinger 11 Jul 14 - 04:17 PM
bobad 11 Jul 14 - 04:33 PM
bobad 11 Jul 14 - 04:54 PM
Greg F. 11 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM
Greg F. 11 Jul 14 - 05:25 PM
bobad 11 Jul 14 - 06:36 PM
Greg F. 11 Jul 14 - 06:49 PM
bobad 11 Jul 14 - 06:54 PM
bobad 11 Jul 14 - 07:08 PM
bobad 11 Jul 14 - 07:38 PM
Greg F. 11 Jul 14 - 08:25 PM
bobad 11 Jul 14 - 08:59 PM
Greg F. 11 Jul 14 - 10:12 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 14 - 02:20 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 14 - 02:26 AM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 14 - 08:47 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 09:05 AM
Ed T 12 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 11:48 AM
robomatic 12 Jul 14 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM
Ed T 12 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 04:06 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 04:09 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 04:13 PM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 05:37 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jul 14 - 06:18 PM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jul 14 - 06:32 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 06:37 PM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 07:22 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 07:49 PM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jul 14 - 10:54 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Jul 14 - 12:40 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jul 14 - 01:40 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 14 - 02:19 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jul 14 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jul 14 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 14 - 04:34 AM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 14 - 09:00 AM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 09:36 AM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM
Greg F. 13 Jul 14 - 10:02 AM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM
Greg F. 13 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM
Ed T 13 Jul 14 - 10:47 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 14 - 03:07 PM
robomatic 13 Jul 14 - 03:19 PM
Ed T 13 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jul 14 - 01:03 AM
Ed T 14 Jul 14 - 06:36 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM
Musket 14 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM
Ed T 14 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 14 - 08:32 AM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 09:42 AM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 14 - 10:50 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 14 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 11:04 AM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM
Ed T 14 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM
Musket 14 Jul 14 - 12:19 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 12:24 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 12:28 PM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 12:35 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 14 - 01:20 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jul 14 - 02:00 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 02:35 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM
Musket 14 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jul 14 - 05:59 PM
Musket 14 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 06:38 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jul 14 - 01:52 AM
Musket 15 Jul 14 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 14 - 02:59 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jul 14 - 03:42 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 14 - 04:15 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jul 14 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 06:32 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 07:41 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM
Ed T 15 Jul 14 - 08:13 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM
Musket 15 Jul 14 - 09:04 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 10:07 AM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 10:12 AM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM
Musket 15 Jul 14 - 10:34 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 10:44 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 10:45 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM
Ed T 15 Jul 14 - 12:02 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 12:42 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 01:31 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Jul 14 - 02:46 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 05:15 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 05:16 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 15 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM
Ed T 15 Jul 14 - 06:55 PM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 08:11 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 14 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 14 - 08:44 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM
Greg F. 16 Jul 14 - 09:04 AM
bobad 16 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM
Ed T 16 Jul 14 - 09:52 AM
beardedbruce 16 Jul 14 - 10:01 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 10:08 AM
bobad 16 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM
bobad 16 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 11:10 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM
beardedbruce 16 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jul 14 - 12:25 PM
beardedbruce 16 Jul 14 - 12:29 PM
beardedbruce 16 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM
Ed T 16 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM
beardedbruce 16 Jul 14 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 14 - 02:57 PM
Ed T 16 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM
Ed T 16 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM
Musket 16 Jul 14 - 04:40 PM
Ed T 16 Jul 14 - 04:55 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 06:03 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Jul 14 - 06:04 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 06:11 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 14 - 06:13 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 06:42 PM
Ed T 16 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 14 - 07:14 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 07:16 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Jul 14 - 07:33 PM
Greg F. 16 Jul 14 - 07:41 PM
Ed T 16 Jul 14 - 07:54 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 07:58 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Jul 14 - 08:14 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 14 - 08:26 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jul 14 - 12:42 AM
Musket 17 Jul 14 - 03:15 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM
Musket 17 Jul 14 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 14 - 05:15 AM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 05:56 AM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 06:14 AM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 06:50 AM
Musket 17 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM
Ed T 17 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 07:45 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 07:51 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 08:13 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 08:16 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 09:06 AM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 09:22 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 09:56 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 14 - 11:40 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 12:04 PM
Musket 17 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 14 - 12:33 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 12:58 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 01:23 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM
Ed T 17 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM
Ed T 17 Jul 14 - 04:12 PM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 04:51 PM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 06:06 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 06:07 PM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 08:04 PM
robomatic 17 Jul 14 - 08:21 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 09:24 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 17 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 09:39 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 09:40 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 17 Jul 14 - 09:56 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 10:19 PM
bobad 17 Jul 14 - 10:31 PM
bobad 18 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 09:16 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 18 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Jul 14 - 11:44 AM
robomatic 18 Jul 14 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM
Greg F. 18 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM
robomatic 18 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 01:46 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 18 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 14 - 04:15 PM
robomatic 18 Jul 14 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Jul 14 - 05:02 PM
robomatic 18 Jul 14 - 07:46 PM
bobad 18 Jul 14 - 08:14 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 14 - 08:30 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 14 - 08:34 PM
bobad 18 Jul 14 - 08:46 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 14 - 08:50 PM
bobad 18 Jul 14 - 09:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM
bobad 18 Jul 14 - 09:37 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 18 Jul 14 - 10:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Jul 14 - 12:47 AM
bobad 19 Jul 14 - 06:47 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 14 - 08:12 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM
bobad 19 Jul 14 - 08:47 AM
bobad 19 Jul 14 - 08:53 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jul 14 - 09:22 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 14 - 09:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 14 - 09:44 AM
bobad 19 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM
bobad 19 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM
bobad 19 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM
Greg F. 19 Jul 14 - 02:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jul 14 - 06:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 14 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 14 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM
bobad 20 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM
bobad 20 Jul 14 - 10:05 AM
bobad 20 Jul 14 - 10:12 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 14 - 10:13 AM
bobad 20 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 14 - 11:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 14 - 11:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 14 - 11:23 AM
Musket 20 Jul 14 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 14 - 11:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jul 14 - 12:24 PM
bobad 20 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM
bobad 20 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jul 14 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 14 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM
Musket 20 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM
Greg F. 20 Jul 14 - 03:22 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Jul 14 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jul 14 - 10:41 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Jul 14 - 11:41 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 04:19 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Jul 14 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 06:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 08:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 08:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 08:48 AM
Musket 21 Jul 14 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 14 - 09:36 AM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 14 - 10:01 AM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 14 - 10:07 AM
Greg F. 21 Jul 14 - 10:27 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 10:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 11:30 AM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM
Greg F. 21 Jul 14 - 12:22 PM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 12:50 PM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM
Stilly River Sage 21 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 04:11 PM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 04:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jul 14 - 05:53 PM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 06:28 PM
bobad 21 Jul 14 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jul 14 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 22 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 22 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Jul 14 - 07:07 AM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 07:29 AM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 14 - 08:12 AM
Musket 22 Jul 14 - 08:20 AM
GUEST 22 Jul 14 - 08:34 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 02:54 PM
Greg F. 22 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 04:10 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM
Greg F. 22 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 14 - 04:17 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 14 - 04:20 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 04:27 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jul 14 - 04:34 PM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 04:37 PM
Greg F. 22 Jul 14 - 06:09 PM
Greg F. 22 Jul 14 - 06:42 PM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 07:06 PM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 07:23 PM
Greg F. 22 Jul 14 - 08:39 PM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 09:06 PM
bobad 22 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 14 - 01:59 AM
Musket 23 Jul 14 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jul 14 - 02:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM
Musket 23 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 14 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jul 14 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jul 14 - 06:34 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM
bobad 23 Jul 14 - 07:05 AM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM
Musket 23 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM
Greg F. 23 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM
bobad 23 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 14 - 09:02 AM
Greg F. 23 Jul 14 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 14 - 09:17 AM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM
Greg F. 23 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM
bobad 23 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jul 14 - 09:40 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM
bobad 23 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM
Greg F. 23 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 03:49 PM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM
Ed T 23 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM
bobad 23 Jul 14 - 05:25 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Jul 14 - 05:54 PM
Greg F. 23 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM
Greg F. 23 Jul 14 - 06:47 PM
bobad 23 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Jul 14 - 08:10 PM
Greg F. 23 Jul 14 - 08:32 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jul 14 - 09:53 PM
Greg F. 23 Jul 14 - 10:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jul 14 - 01:32 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 02:54 AM
Musket 24 Jul 14 - 03:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 14 - 04:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 14 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jul 14 - 05:20 AM
Musket 24 Jul 14 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 06:56 AM
Ed T 24 Jul 14 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 14 - 07:13 AM
Greg F. 24 Jul 14 - 08:28 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jul 14 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 11:51 AM
Musket 24 Jul 14 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 01:01 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 01:18 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 01:38 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM
Musket 24 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 03:09 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 03:19 PM
Greg F. 24 Jul 14 - 03:21 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 03:23 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 03:29 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 03:35 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 03:40 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 03:47 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 03:54 PM
Musket 24 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 14 - 04:19 PM
Greg F. 24 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM
bobad 24 Jul 14 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,hw 24 Jul 14 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jul 14 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 03:09 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jul 14 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Jul 14 - 05:25 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Jul 14 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 06:26 AM
bobad 25 Jul 14 - 06:34 AM
bobad 25 Jul 14 - 06:47 AM
bobad 25 Jul 14 - 06:54 AM
bobad 25 Jul 14 - 07:00 AM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM
Musket 25 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 07:38 AM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 07:41 AM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 07:45 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM
Greg F. 25 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM
Musket 25 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 10:50 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 11:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM
Greg F. 25 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM
bobad 25 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM
bobad 25 Jul 14 - 01:39 PM
Musket 25 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM
bobad 25 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 02:09 PM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 03:37 PM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jul 14 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jul 14 - 05:45 PM
Greg F. 25 Jul 14 - 08:32 PM
GUEST,Ukie 25 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM
bobad 25 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM
Musket 26 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Jul 14 - 03:10 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 03:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 14 - 05:05 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 05:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 14 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 06:16 AM
bobad 26 Jul 14 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 01:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 14 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Jul 14 - 02:47 PM
bobad 26 Jul 14 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,hw 26 Jul 14 - 10:42 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 14 - 03:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 14 - 04:57 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 14 - 05:31 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jul 14 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 14 - 05:57 AM
bobad 27 Jul 14 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM
bobad 27 Jul 14 - 04:17 PM
Greg F. 27 Jul 14 - 07:08 PM
bobad 27 Jul 14 - 08:52 PM
Greg F. 27 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,hw 27 Jul 14 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jul 14 - 10:15 PM
Teribus 28 Jul 14 - 02:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jul 14 - 05:00 AM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 06:04 AM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 06:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 14 - 08:49 AM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 09:06 AM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 09:14 AM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 10:21 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM
Musket 28 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 10:41 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 10:44 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 10:47 AM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 11:12 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 11:32 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 11:33 AM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 11:34 AM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 11:36 AM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 11:44 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 11:45 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 11:55 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 12:15 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 12:23 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 12:39 PM
Musket 28 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM
Musket 28 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 01:19 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 01:43 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 01:48 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 01:56 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 02:01 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 02:04 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 02:16 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 02:24 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 02:29 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 03:07 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 03:21 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 03:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 14 - 05:24 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 05:27 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 05:32 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 06:31 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 06:43 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 06:53 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 07:00 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 07:03 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 07:19 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 09:45 PM
Teribus 29 Jul 14 - 01:59 AM
Musket 29 Jul 14 - 04:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 14 - 06:33 AM
Teribus 29 Jul 14 - 07:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 14 - 07:41 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 07:49 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM
Musket 29 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM
Teribus 29 Jul 14 - 09:05 AM
Greg F. 29 Jul 14 - 09:59 AM
Greg F. 29 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 10:08 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 10:14 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM
Greg F. 29 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM
Greg F. 29 Jul 14 - 10:26 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM
Greg F. 29 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM
Musket 29 Jul 14 - 12:12 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 12:18 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 01:01 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM
bobad 29 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM
Greg F. 29 Jul 14 - 06:17 PM
Greg F. 29 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM
robomatic 29 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM
bobad 29 Jul 14 - 07:44 PM
robomatic 29 Jul 14 - 08:09 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 14 - 08:39 PM
Greg F. 29 Jul 14 - 09:00 PM
Greg F. 29 Jul 14 - 09:02 PM
bobad 29 Jul 14 - 09:08 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 14 - 09:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Jul 14 - 05:00 AM
Musket 30 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 06:09 AM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 06:35 AM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 06:56 AM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 07:33 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 07:52 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM
Greg F. 30 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM
Greg F. 30 Jul 14 - 10:08 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM
Ed T 30 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 14 - 12:14 PM
Greg F. 30 Jul 14 - 12:35 PM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 14 - 12:59 PM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 01:08 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM
Musket 30 Jul 14 - 01:30 PM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 01:50 PM
Greg F. 30 Jul 14 - 02:00 PM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 02:04 PM
Greg F. 30 Jul 14 - 02:09 PM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 02:13 PM
Greg F. 30 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 03:40 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 04:07 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 30 Jul 14 - 04:12 PM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 14 - 05:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 14 - 05:19 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Jul 14 - 05:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 14 - 05:30 PM
Ed T 30 Jul 14 - 05:38 PM
Greg F. 30 Jul 14 - 06:35 PM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 07:45 PM
Greg F. 30 Jul 14 - 07:51 PM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 08:03 PM
bobad 30 Jul 14 - 08:06 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 14 - 08:20 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 30 Jul 14 - 08:25 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 14 - 03:38 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 14 - 04:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 14 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 04:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 14 - 05:03 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 05:40 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 14 - 05:43 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 06:12 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 14 - 06:26 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Jul 14 - 06:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 14 - 07:13 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 07:34 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM
Musket 31 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 08:05 AM
Musket 31 Jul 14 - 08:08 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Jul 14 - 08:13 AM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 08:16 AM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,hw 31 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM
Bill D 31 Jul 14 - 10:20 AM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 10:57 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 11:50 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 31 Jul 14 - 11:50 AM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 12:01 PM
Musket 31 Jul 14 - 12:05 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 01:10 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 01:12 PM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 01:20 PM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 01:27 PM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 31 Jul 14 - 02:45 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 14 - 03:12 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 04:05 PM
Ed T 31 Jul 14 - 04:53 PM
GUEST 31 Jul 14 - 05:33 PM
Greg F. 31 Jul 14 - 05:55 PM
Ed T 31 Jul 14 - 06:05 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 31 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM
Greg F. 31 Jul 14 - 06:19 PM
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Subject: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:11 AM

Here's the text which would ordinarily ask for subscription costs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A different kind of Israeli: Prof. Raphi Walden on why the Jewish people stopped caring

Walden, co-chairperson of Physicians for Human Rights, says that Israeli leaders cynically exploit our fears in order to stay in power. Still, he has not lost hope for peace.

By Ayelett Shani |
Haaretz: Apr.25, 2013
We are meeting on Holocaust Remembrance Day. I know that you have an extraordinary Holocaust-related story.

I was born in France. During the war, my family and I resided in a small village under an assumed identity and with false papers. We were certain no one knew. One day, a neighbor came running over and told us, "Be careful, the Germans are coming." And then we discovered that everyone knew.

They knew and said nothing.

Yes. I have just come from the ceremony at the hospital, where I told that story. On the way, I heard Moshe Arens being asked on the radio what the lesson of the Holocaust is. He replied, "The lesson is that we have to be strong." I say the lesson of the Holocaust that we have to be strong and firm has already been internalized. The true lesson is that we must be compassionate and attentive, as we expected the Gentiles to be compassionate toward us, but found that this was not the case.

The Holocaust taught your family compassion and solidarity. Those values were implanted in you.

They were implanted in me, but this matter is not confined to my personal story. These are Jewish values. Obligation to strangers is mentioned 36 times in the Torah, far more times than Shabbat observance, keeping kosher and the like. Yet you see what is happening today, when people who declare themselves to be the keepers of the "embers" of Judaism are so fundamentally opposed to Jewish humanism. That saddens me very much.

What happened to Jewish humanism? Where did it vanish to?

Jewish humanism became self-defensive. We are still behaving here as though we were in a Diaspora shtetl, and have to beware the goyim who are out to attack us. Hence the emphasis on force, power, toughness.

How much weight do you think governmental rhetoric has in this game? One of today's headlines is: "Netanyahu: Never again a Holocaust, I promise."

I think that is a twisted use of the Holocaust. Like frightening us with all kinds of Iranian threats, or by warning that a million Africans will invade Israel − this is actually a primitive method to keep the masses of the people of Israel in a state of constant fear: If they do not heed the strong leader, a second Holocaust will befall us. The leadership assiduously cultivates, maintains and preserves this Holocaust neurosis, because it is its device for staying in power.

Is it a right-wing device?

It is unequivocally a right-wing device.

Your detractors will say that you are representing the left and living in a bubble with them. Are you sure Israel is in such a strong position?

Stronger than most Western countries. And even the threats that do exist against us do not justify the Holocaust fear that hangs over us like a Damoclean sword. That is intimidation. I would say that it is a cynical exploitation of the fears that nest in everyone. Instead of a sagacious leader showing the way, our leaders nourish these fears.

Like a kind of opium for the masses.

There is no easier way to unite the masses than by depicting an enemy who is out to destroy us.

And one of the results of this approach, you believe, is our attitude toward the refugees.

In our work with the refugees in Physicians for Human Rights, we encounter dramatic human situations. You should know that in Sinai there are concentration camps that would not shame the Nazis. The refugees are held there for weeks, sometimes months, and subjected to hellish torture in order to extort money from their families in Sudan or Eritrea. We find people with burn marks and other signs of abuse; people who have been starved to the extreme; women who were raped and became pregnant and then need an abortion.

It is horrific. The Egyptian authorities have no access to them and also have no motivation [to deal with the problem]. The Bedouin do as they please with the Eritreans. It's an unfathomable situation.

Not so many years ago, people dressed in black with side curls and speaking a strange language knocked on doors and wanted to cross the border into Switzerland. They were turned back and ended their lives in Auschwitz. Where is Jewish compassion? How have we failed to learn that what was done to us, we must not do to others? It is so important for our leadership to strike a posture of force that compassion was simply erased.

That narrative of forcefulness has always existed here.

But now we are in a position to allow ourselves to be compassionate. We are strong enough to have compassion.

Physicians for Human Rights is like a prosthesis for the health establishment: you treat those whom the system ignores.

We treat a population that no one else deals with. They are people without status. The refugees are here, whether we like it or not. The National Health Law stipulates that people who are in critical condition must be treated. But what about people who suffer from chronic illnesses, such as diabetes, and don't have money to buy medicines? Or who need an operation?

We also have a problem of a poor population in this country, people who live on National Insurance allowances and have to decide between medicines and food. The situation is particularly dire for elderly people who have a long list of medicines because, even if they are cheap, it adds up to amounts which they cannot afford. We are here for them, and we also hold a public dialogue with the decision makers in these areas.

And also in regard to political issues.

Indeed. We fight the occupation fiercely and consider it the mother of all sins. We work both at the public level and the grass-roots level. Every Shabbat, a group of physicians and nurses goes to the territories.

A kind of mobile clinic.

Yes. We also take a mobile drugstore and distribute medicines free. The Palestinians are desperately poor. They have no industry and their labor market − Israel − is blocked to them.

How are you received there?

With great love. We arrive in a village or town and are usually met by the mayor or mukhtar. We exchange greetings, have a coffee and get to work. For the most part we set ourselves up in a school or a community center, and each of us treats patients in his specialty; there's a dermatologist, internist, orthopedist, etc.

We see about 400 patients on an average day − 400 people who, for the first time, encounter an Israeli in an experience that is not threatening or violent.

Most of their encounters with Israelis are with the soldier − whom I also pity, spending hours at a checkpoint in the heat − who arrests them. Or the settler who chops down their olive trees; or the Shin Bet security service man who pulls their father out of bed at two in the morning.

This is an opportunity for them to see a different Israeli. An Israeli with an outstretched hand. And because the 400 people have families and neighbors and friends, we touch the hearts of thousands of people. And even if we didn't change anything − and we make no pretense of changing the health situation in the West Bank, or even in a small village − we have succeeded in creating a small light at the end of the tunnel. We have performed an act of human solidarity.

The day ends with a big meal at the hosts' home in a wonderful atmosphere of jokes and joy, and we see how things could be.

But it must also be frustrating.

The truth is that we create this microcosm which, on the one hand, offers hope, but on the other produces a great deal of frustration. If only we could forgo the messianic longings of this extremist minority that is leading us to perdition.

I have met thousands of people in the 20 years in which I have been doing this. What we hear from all of them is that they want only to live in peace and raise their children. They recall nostalgically the period before the intifada, when they worked in Israel and invited their employers to family events. And when the money they made – which was, of course, the minimum wage – was like a treasure for them. With it they built homes and planted vineyards.

In those 20 years, have you ever encountered hostility?

Never.

Really?

Not even once. You remember the horrific [1994] murder perpetrated by Baruch Goldstein in the Tomb of the Patriarchs, right? He killed almost 30 people. We were scheduled to go to the territories on the following Shabbat, but we hesitated. The whole region was like a seething cauldron. In the end we decided to go. And even on that day, we were received with boundless warmth and love.

How do you cope with the authorities, such as the army?

There are all kinds of stories. When Hamas seized control in the Gaza Strip, they started to harass Fatah people in one of the most barbaric ways imaginable: by kneecapping them. We received requests from Gaza to treat wounded people who were in danger of losing their legs. The army viewed them as a security risk and refused to authorize the visit. Three requests were rejected, but with the fourth request we succeeded − somehow the mercy of the authorities was aroused. I operated on a young man. Later, he came for a follow-up check. He was walking on two feet. I looked at him and thought of the three whose requests were turned down and lost their legs.

The state is paying, and will pay, a steep price for its shortsightedness.

Of course. Take the story of the prisoner who died in jail [Maysara Abu Hamdiyeh]. He had been suffering from throat pains since August 2012. He was diagnosed with cancer in February 2013. He was hospitalized on March 30 and died on April 2. Here you have all the wrongs in the world and also all the stupidity in the world. Cancer is not a lightning bolt. Obviously he reached the hospital in serious condition, as he died three days later. And besides that, over and above the ethical and moral aspects, a little common sense is called for. If he had been discharged four or five days earlier, he would have died at home and all the riots in the territories would not have taken place.

Where is Jewish common sense? There are all kinds of dumb bureaucracies; there were holidays and the relevant committee couldn't be convened. A few phone calls could have been made and the grievously ill man discharged.

But that is more an example of the establishment's insensitivity, not human insensitivity.

Bureaucracy leads to cruelty, too. I served in the Paratroops. I held the rank of lieutenant colonel. I was badly wounded but refused to be discharged from the army. I fought in three wars, but Avigdor Lieberman called me an accomplice to terrorism.

How did you feel when he called you that?

I thought it was foolish to view someone who criticizes you as a troublemaker for the Jews.

It's a Bolshevik way of thinking.

Exactly. My criticism comes from love. I proved my love for the country and I continue to prove it. I am not some off-the-wall leftist living in a bubble.

That was the first time the criticism of you was voiced publicly. Have you had to cope with political pressures aimed at stopping or silencing the activity of your group?

No. There was the attempt in the last Knesset to restrict the activity of human rights organizations.

Was that the only time? Have you never been personally asked to stop, to lower the group's profile?

No. No such request was ever made to me. And when I speak to people in the defense establishment about Palestinian prisoners' hunger strikes, for example, they try to help them. If those people die in jail, there really will be an intifada here.

Do you call them personally?

Of course.

At what rank?

I can't tell you. But I call people in the defense establishment with whom I have personal ties to alert them.

When you examine the big picture of what you are doing, do you feel empowered or despairing?

I do not feel despair.

How do you explain that? You are exposed to so many systemic malfunctions and unfortunate stories.

Maybe it's because I see the relations that are created between people. When I come to a Palestinian village or meet a Palestinian physician, there's this instant click that occurs in the most natural way. There are nations between which there was a fundamental, deep grudge − the French and the Germans, for example. Yet look what is happening now. We do not have such deep residues. There are, of course, dead and wounded and bereaved families on both sides, but from what I have seen for the past 20 years, human ties are forged very easily, and those ties are a foundation. I also do not think the political problems are irresolvable.

But no one wants to solve them.

That is because we are being led by the nose by an extremist minority. Look at even the economic angle. We have here a market of 3.5 million Palestinians who are making every effort not to buy Israeli products. But if there were peace, we would have a paradise here. Instead of the dire poverty and the ghettos in south Tel Aviv, people could come and earn a dignified living in construction and go back home at the end of the day.

Do you really think there is a chance, that there is hope?

I am a tour guide by training. In the Paratroops I was a brigade medic in the Jordan Rift Valley. I have been all through the valley, and Judea and Samaria. I am connected to those places. I am not one of those leftists who says these places mean nothing to them. But for the sake of peace I am willing to make this sacrifice. It is a sacrifice, and I am emotionally ready to make the sacrifice. I understand that the messianic hilltop youth expect millions of Palestinians to disappear into thin air; but there is also a large part of the public that is indifferent as long as there is no sword at its throat.

Happily, there have been no exploding buses and terrorist attacks lately, but that casts a veil over the fact that we are still sitting on a powder keg. In regard to the Palestinians, all our fondest dreams of a decade ago have come true: for there to be rational, serious people in their leadership, for the terrorism to stop. Those were our conditions.

But instead of this putting the subject on the agenda, the exact opposite happened.

That is precisely the folly of our leadership, who are worried only about their current term in office. This is as good as it will get.

Are we becoming more racist?

Without a doubt.

To what do you attribute this?

To the psychological pressure that is being implemented from above − and here I accuse the authorities harshly. The interior minister and MKs make flagrantly racist remarks and everyone takes it in their stride. Imagine if some cabinet minister abroad were to talk about Jews the way [former Interior Minister] Eli Yishai talked about the Africans. We are growing more insular and ignoring human dignity.

How do you manage to stay optimistic?

It's because I think that, basically, we have a good nation and these others are deviations and not the mainstream. I don't think there is any other concentration of over five million people with these talents anywhere else on the planet. Not in Paris and not in New York and not in Los Angeles. In art, in painting, in sculpture, in science, in research, in technology, in startups. We are in third place in the world in terms of medical devices.

We are truly overflowing with talent. Except in politics, where we are hard up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:38 AM

What a pity that there aren't many more with the courage to speak out, String, but it won't be long before this is swamped with comment from the usual bunch, calling him a liar and an antisemitic traitor.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:59 AM

I hope not, Don T. The world needs more people to speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:58 PM

As it stands, any hope for a Palestinian state is dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:22 PM

Hamas rebuffs Arabs for softening Israeli-Palestinian peace plan

By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA | Fri May 3, 2013 1:39pm EDT

(Reuters) - Islamist Hamas's leader in the Gaza Strip on Friday rejected a revised Middle East peace initiative put forward by the Arab League, saying outsiders could not decide the fate of the Palestinians.

In meetings this week in Washington, Arab states appeared to soften their 2002 peace plan, acknowledging that Israelis and Palestinians may have to swap land in any eventual peace deal.

The United States and the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank praised the move. But speaking to hundreds of worshippers in a Gaza mosque, senior Hamas official Ismail Haniyeh said it was a concession that other Arabs were not authorized to make.

"The so-called new Arab initiative is rejected by our people, by our nation and no one can accept it," said Haniyeh, prime minister of the Hamas government in the coastal enclave.

"The initiative contains numerous dangers to our people in the occupied land of 1967, 1948 and to our people in exile."

He was referring to the partition of British-mandate Palestine in 1948 when the United Nations voted to divide the territory into a Jewish state and an Arab state, and to the 1967 war when Israel captured the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.

Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist and claims all the territory between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river as rightfully Palestinian. It never accepted the Arab plan which was first presented in 2002.

RARE SPAT

The modified version was announced by Qatar's prime minister on Monday and Haniyeh's comments represented a rare public disagreement between Hamas and one of its main supporters.

The rich Gulf state has pledged over $400 million to fund housing projects in the Gaza Strip, which Hamas seized from the rival Palestinian Fatah faction in a brief civil war in 2007.

"To those who speak of land swaps we say: Palestine is not a property, it is not for sale, not for a swap and cannot be traded," Haniyeh said.

Haniyeh said the rival Palestinian Authority, headed by Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, was to blame for inspiring the softer Arab position because it accepted the need for land swaps with Israel.

Israel rejected the Arab peace plan when it was proposed 11 years ago. Israeli officials gave a cautious welcome to the new suggestions, but the government still objects to key points, including the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees and the creation of a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is seeking to revive direct peace talks that broke down in 2010 over the issue of Jewish settlement building in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

On Tuesday, he hailed the Arab League announcement as "a very big step forward."

However, any peace moves will have to confront the fractured Palestinian political landscape with Abbas holding sway over parts of the West Bank and Hamas firmly entrenched in Gaza. Repeated attempts by the two sides to secure a political reunification of the two territories have failed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:29 PM

He is entitled to his opinions, and no-one can stop Stringsinger filling our screens with them.

"You should know that in Sinai there are concentration camps that would not shame the Nazis. The refugees are held there for weeks, sometimes months, and subjected to hellish torture in order to extort money from their families in Sudan or Eritrea. We find people with burn marks and other signs of abuse; people who have been starved to the extreme; women who were raped and became pregnant and then need an abortion.

It is horrific. The Egyptian authorities have no access to them and also have no motivation [to deal with the problem]. The Bedouin do as they please"

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.

"When Hamas seized control in the Gaza Strip, they started to harass Fatah people in one of the most barbaric ways imaginable: by kneecapping them. We received requests from Gaza to treat wounded people who were in danger of losing their legs."

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.
And, they hate Jews more even than they hated those Palestinians.

"Happily, there have been no exploding buses and terrorist attacks lately, but that casts a veil over the fact that we are still sitting on a powder keg. In regard to the Palestinians, all our fondest dreams of a decade ago have come true: for there to be rational, serious people in their leadership, for the terrorism to stop."

Maybe the bus bombs stopped because they wanted peace, but they only stopped when the wall was built.
That seems the more likely reason.

Stringsinger, your paste job reminds us that Israel is surrounded by cruel and merciless killers, and has every reason to fear being at their mercy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:51 PM

Please...please...PLEASE, folks...on ALL sides..give us a summary and a LINK, not a huge copy & paste.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:14 PM

It is moronic in the extreme to attempt to excuse Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses by pointing to other states and claiming that they are worse – even if it were true, such a claim would only show that Israel is yet another terrorist state with contempt for human rights and life.
In this case of course it is not true – no other state today has Israel's long running and persistent war crimes and human rights abuses record.
To single out Egypt, after having used that extremist and beleaguered regime as a defence for flooding the supply tunnels in preference to the opinion of present opposition to that regime's claims to the contrary is doubly moronic. There is no argument that the present Egyptian regime is a despotic and undemocratic one – they are the same bunch of thugs whose word was offered as justification for closing the tunnels rather than that of the present opposition, and to describe it as being "worse than Israel" is having ones cake and eating it somewhat.   
Israel's human rights abuses and war crimes are far too well known and documented to be denied; you need go no further than its long and growing list of abuses of United Nations resolutions, the consequences of which they have been persistently protected from by an equally long list of U.S. vetoes - not to mention the history of massacres and atrocities that have been reported on in the world press, including Israel's own.
We've had a long spell here of 'atrocity denial' with the individual concerned not even bothering his arse to produce either evidence to his claims or even links to his very selective quotes. Not good enough if he wants to join the 'let's re-write history club – even David Irving made an effort by actually manufacturing his 'facts' before he presented them as a historical truth.
Recently six more expert witnesses have been added to the list of those speaking out against the Israeli regime – the six former heads of Shin Beth, Israel's security organisation. Their agreement to be interviewed publicly throws open Israel's behaviour for all to see.
They all admitted freely the methods that were used to suppress opposition to the Israeli State and pleaded that there was no other choice to their actions and in fairness their case comes over as that they honestly believed that – judge for yourselves, go and see 'The Gatekeepers' – I saw it on Wednesday and it's stunning in its implications.
The final straw for them appears to have been the murder of Yitzhak Rabin; who, after a vicious campaign of mass rallies by ultra-extremist Rabbis calling for his removal, was 'removed' permanently by a young Zionist extremist – Rabin's crime – along with President Clinton he attempted to negotiate a peace with the Arabs. There was no effort made to bring those who deliberately incited his murder to justice.
The Shin Beth men all said there could be no peace in Israel without compromise on both sides and that the Israeli politicians had betrayed Israel by refusing to even consider negotiating such a peace and instead had opted for an all-out military solution aimed at all Palestinians.
Their main concern now is what Israel has now become.
The oldest (and most hard-line in defending past actions) of the Shin Beth men compared present day Israel as being indistinguishable in all but the enormity from Nazi Germany. He actually stopped in the middle of a sentence describing it as Fascist, saying it was too distressing to give voice to such a thought.
There you go Keith – a group of Israeli supporters who have devoted their lives to securing Israel's future – what do you reckon – misled, naive, anti-Semites or simply anti-Israeli liars making it all up?
I wonder how fanatics are handling the idea that Israel does not even have the mythical right to a homeland in Palestine and that it is all – well, a myth.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:27 PM

Whoops - doesn't appear to be working - try again
Jim Carroll

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:59 PM

Israelis and Palestinians Plant Olive Trees Together For Peace


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:03 PM

"Miss, Billy has been hitting me again!"

"Come here, Billy. Have you been hitting people again?"

"Yes Miss, but when I hit people I do it with my fists. When Jimmy and Johnny hit people, they do it with sticks!"

"Ah, that's fine then, Billy. Off you go and play!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:27 PM

"And tell me Billy, why have you been hitting people again?"

"It is because I was taught that these people are descended from apes and pigs and that we must kill them wherever they are found."

"Good for you then Billy, you are doing as you are taught, carry on then."


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:38 PM

"Israelis and Palestinians Plant Olive Trees Together For Peace"
Very heartening clip Bobad - "if it wasn't for the politicians in-between", as the song nearly says.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:52 PM

"if it wasn't for the politicians in-between"

For once something I can agree with you on - if it was up to the people, on both sides, I am sure there would have been peace long ago if, as you said "it wasn't for the politicians in-between", to which I will add and the religious extremists on both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:16 PM

Religion has got nothing to do with this, despite what justifiers on both sides might like to claim. It's the usual, good old-fashioned imperialism and racism. No value judgements, except to say that the dominant parties are always better at the racism and imperialism. History, dear boy, history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:38 PM

"Religion has got nothing to do with this"

I beg to differ....history, dear boy, history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 02:49 AM

It is moronic in the extreme to attempt to excuse Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses by pointing to other states and claiming that they are worse

No-one here has ever done that Jim, as I keep telling you.
We have questioned the authenticity of alleged crimes, and we have asked why Israel is always singled out and the worse crimes of neighbours always ignored.

I wonder how fanatics are handling the idea that Israel does not even have the mythical right to a homeland in Palestine and that it is all – well, a myth.
No myths.
Israel was created by UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:39 AM

"We have questioned the authenticity of alleged crimes"
By "we" I assume you are referring to the tiny handful of pro-Zionist fanatics who post here.
You have actually "questioned" nothing, you have dismissed every single piece of evidence that doesn't show Israel's terrorist regime as shining angels out of hand as "lies", "anti-Israeli", anti- Semitic".... massacres, ethnic cleansing, racism and bigotry, creating an apartheid state, using chemical weapons, targetting civilians, destroying homes, driivinf people off their land to create illegal settlements..... - all proven beyond doubt, all denied out of hand.
You openly defend atrocities by pointing to the behavior of other states as if that had the slightest bearing on what Israel does and has been shown to have done since its foundation.
You present no evidence of your own and you have consistently refused to link your articles.
You have nothing to say and you dominate these threads by not saying it - put up or shut up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:52 AM

It is a fact that Israel has been accused by "eye witnesses" of committing crimes that never happened.
Deny that Jim?
Israel's enemies would not have to create crimes if there were real ones.
"..... - all proven beyond doubt,"
Not.
" all denied out of hand. "
Not by us. We may have given Israel's side of the story. What objection could you have to that?
I have also pointed out that no free and well informed country believes all that stuff, including yours Jim.

"You openly defend atrocities"
A lie Jim. No-one here would do that.
Why must you lie about us?

"You present no evidence of your own and you have consistently refused to link your articles."
Another lie. I told you I could and would substantiate anything.
You can always Google text anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:59 AM

BTW well done for learning to do links yourself.
I am glad my instructions you requested were helpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 05:43 AM

All lies again eh Keith? Now there's a new tactic!!
Did you send me instructions - must have been one I deleted when I decided I wasn't going to put up with being stalked.
Meanwhile back to the Shin Beth boyos
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 06:13 AM

I beg to differ....history, dear boy, history.

Religion is a conveniently-holy wagon to which you hitch your dastardly cause. Now you know me. I hate religion. Why would I exonerate it so? Because I'm honest!


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:09 AM

"You openly defend atrocities"
A lie Jim. No-one here would do that.
You never have and never could provide an example.


"You present no evidence of your own and you have consistently refused to link your articles."
Another lie. I told you I could and would substantiate anything, but having made the accusation you could not produce any statements needing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:45 AM

Speaking of lies, the prof quoted at length in the op was implicated in faking a child's death for anti Israel propaganda.
"Ben-Dror Yemini this week described the role of Walden in the French forgery in his weekly column. Walden prepared a professional medical report [3] that backed the lies and fabrications of the French TV station and the attempt to "prove" the Arab propaganda version of the a-Dura shooting, based on the injuries to a-Dura's father. Only problem is that the good doctor never examined the a-Dura father and based his expert conclusions on some paperwork he got from a Jordanian office. A different Israeli doctor who DID examine the poppa, Dr. Yehuda David, discovered that all the injuries the father was claiming to have suffered when his son was pretending to be shot were in fact injuries from at least 8 years earlier "
http://www.debriefing.org/27123.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:21 AM

sSo?
What has this got to do with Israeli war crimes?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:37 AM

I told you exactly what would happen!

I did so hope I would be wrong, but the apologists cannot abide the truth, whatever the source.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:30 AM

Keith, the world is filled with heartless killers, dictators and the like. Israeli government supports some of them. So does the U.S.

So nu?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:45 AM

Which "heartless killers, dictators" does the Israeli government support Stringsinger?
Not Assad. He has Iran and Russia.
Not the Saudis, or any of the Middle Eastern dictatorships.
Which?

Don, what "truth" have we denied?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:14 PM

It is virtually impossible to get any information on Keith's site unless you are a fluent French speaker, but it appears to be dedicated to defending Israel and attacking Arabs.
The author appears to be a Zionist as his article describes the doctor he is attacking as a "far-leftist anti-Zionist" and is scattered with phrases such as "usual Jewish leftists" and "usual leftist proclamations."
He describes Dr Raphael Gordon thus (and rather sinisterly includes Gordon's e-mail address in his article):
"Walden is a far-leftist anti-Zionist medical doctor with specialty in surgery, at Tel Hashomer hospital. He is active in the pro-terror anti-Israel propaganda group "Doctors for Human Rights," a group once run by anti-Semite Neve Gordon and which does not believe that Jews should be entitled to any human rights. He is also the son-in-law of Shimon Peres and often described in the press as Shimon Peres' personal physician."
This is the man the author describes as "pro-terror".
"Sheba's Prof. Raphi Walden Awarded the French Legion of Honor
Date12/07/2009
AuthorUnknown
SourceN/A
The Republic of France has awarded its highest honor, the Legion of Honor Award, to Prof. Raphael Walden, a Deputy Director of the Sheba Medical Center. Prof. Walden received the prestigious award in recognition of his leadership in the Israeli NGO, Physicians for Human Rights, and for his concrete contribution to Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation.
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, a close friend of Prof. Walden's, personally insisted on bestowing the "Officer of the Legion" award himself, during Kouchner's recent visit to Israel. Kouchner himself was one of the founders of the international NGO, Doctors without Borders.
Mr. Shimon Peres, President of the State of Israel, participated in the November 18 ceremony which was held at the French ambassador's residence in Jaffa. Prof. Walden is personal physician to Mr. Peres, while Peres is Walden's father-in-law. Former Israeli deputy foreign minister Yossi Beilin was also similarly awarded at the recent ceremony.
Prof. Walden is a vascular surgeon who for years was chief of surgery at Sheba. He is a professor at Tel Aviv University's Sackler School of Medicine, and has been a visiting professor at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston and at Salpetriere Hospital in Paris. He joined Physicians for Human Rights in 1992 and been one of its leaders ever since.
Sheba CEO Prof. Zeev Rotstein said that "We are all tremendously proud of Prof. Walden and thrilled to congratulate him on this most exalted award."
Further information can be found here:
http://www.childrenofpeace.org.uk/archiveold/oct10archive.html
and
http://www.unescochair.uconn.edu/upchrconference10.htm
Information on Neve Gordon, wh he describes as an "Anti-Semite can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neve_Gordon

Little wonder that Keith has refused to link his claims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:16 PM

Oh - and by the way - I suppose it would be somewhat churlish of me to point out that Keith's link is dated 2008
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 02:59 PM

Yes it would.
The incident happened in 2000.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:05 PM

Autumn 2011 report.
http://www.meforum.org/3076/muhammad-al-dura-hoax


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:49 AM

Still nothing to do with the subject of Israel's history of terrorism.
You offered up in evidence for your claims a Zionist hate site which has described a doctor who works to bring about co-operation between Jews and Arabs by treating children as "a far-leftist anti-Zionist" and "active in the pro-terror anti-Israel propaganda"
It describes the organisation he works for as "pro terror" and a former director of that organisation, who also happens to be an Israeli war hero who was seriously wounded in defence of his country as "anti Semitic".
The language used by the author of that article "usual Jewish leftists" and "usual leftist proclamations" perfectly echoes your own statements throughout all of these discussions.
What has your link to do with the fact that present day Israel has, in the words of a former head of the Shin Beth, become "indistinguishable in all but the enormity from Nazi Germany"?
Israel is run by a sick terrorist regime, (I assume you are not going to comment on the evidence for that which has been given by six heads of the Israeli security service), and defenders of of that regime are sickos, no better than those who refuse to acknowledge the Holocaust.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:57 AM

By the way
"The incident happened in 2000."
The link you put up is dated 2008 - but I bow to your information - by your own past arguments, the incident is 13 years out of date rather than the 5 years I mistakenly claimed - scraping even deeper into the bottom of the barrel for evidence that Israel is really a misunderstood little innocent due of "anti-Semitic propaganda".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:09 AM

Jim, this thread was never about "Israel's terrorism."
That was your thread drift, and I think you have had enough opportunities to try and make that case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 05:35 AM

The title of this thread is "Small hope for Israeli/Palestine" - the "thread drift" that you scurry behind once again points out that there is no hope while Israel continues its present policy of expansionism by terror.
Your 13 year old link has nothing to do with the subject.
Your bringing up Egyptian behaviour has nothing to do with the subject.
You drift these threads whenever it suits you yet accuses others of doing the same when you are cornered.
The fact that you refuse to respond to "horses mouth" evidence of Israeli fascism is proof enough of what you are and what you stand for, as if you hadn't made that obvious from the beginning.
You are a sick apologist for state terrorism and mass murder - end of.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:16 AM

The "Egyptian behaviour" was in the OP, as was Hamas behaviour.
So called "Israel terrorism" was not, and was not in any subsequent post until you restarted the thread.

Your attempted thread shift to hijack yet another thread is not going to get any support any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 13 - 08:20 AM

Jim, you clearly did not bother yourself to even read the OP.
My first post quoted passages from the OP, including the "Egyptian behaviour."
That is why it was in quotes Jim.

Here is my first post again.



He is entitled to his opinions, and no-one can stop Stringsinger filling our screens with them.

"You should know that in Sinai there are concentration camps that would not shame the Nazis. The refugees are held there for weeks, sometimes months, and subjected to hellish torture in order to extort money from their families in Sudan or Eritrea. We find people with burn marks and other signs of abuse; people who have been starved to the extreme; women who were raped and became pregnant and then need an abortion.

It is horrific. The Egyptian authorities have no access to them and also have no motivation [to deal with the problem]. The Bedouin do as they please"

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.

"When Hamas seized control in the Gaza Strip, they started to harass Fatah people in one of the most barbaric ways imaginable: by kneecapping them. We received requests from Gaza to treat wounded people who were in danger of losing their legs."

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.
And, they hate Jews more even than they hated those Palestinians.

"Happily, there have been no exploding buses and terrorist attacks lately, but that casts a veil over the fact that we are still sitting on a powder keg. In regard to the Palestinians, all our fondest dreams of a decade ago have come true: for there to be rational, serious people in their leadership, for the terrorism to stop."

Maybe the bus bombs stopped because they wanted peace, but they only stopped when the wall was built.
That seems the more likely reason.

Stringsinger, your paste job reminds us that Israel is surrounded by cruel and merciless killers, and has every reason to fear being at their mercy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 02:23 PM

Read it Keith - nothing to do with main subject, or if it is, so is Israeli terrorism
The OP's first post was about Israeli behavior to its neighbours
You have been warned before about trying to censor what others write - YOU ARE NOT AN OVERSEER ON THIS SITE - DO NOT TRY TO STOP WHAT YOU CAN'T HANDLE - IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
If you are not going to respond to the undeniable evidence of Israeli terrorism by some of the people who were partly responsible for it, piss of or you'll be late for your goose-stepping lessons.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Wente
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:11 PM

Israel is a small country in a big, bad neighbourhood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:26 PM

It's a little country surrounded by neighbours some of whom are hostile to Israel with good reason. However, it's a little country with a big ally that asks no questions, ensures that Israel has the fourth biggest army in the world and which is itself the worlds most militarily-powerful nation.

As for this snippet from your link:

You can't see Iran, but the nuke-crazed mullahs aren't far away.

...well that's about the most blatant, evidence-innocent bit of scaremongering I've seen for a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:38 PM

Keith, try Mubarak for one. Also, G.W. Bush and Cheney for others. Iraq was an exercise in killing innocents by basically American dictators.

I think Stephen Hawking has the right idea. Don't support the war-mongers in the Likud or the Israeli government.

There are some enlightened people in Israel who are unhappy with the government unlike those outside in America or the U.K.   This is why I have hope for Israel and condemn the Christian Zionazis who would destroy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:55 PM

Would that one could have such hope for those suffering the governance of the Islamofascists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:01 PM

Or the Faschoillamalists. Or mybe the Ramalamadingdongalists. Oe even the Zionistapologists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:46 PM

""You can't see Iran, but the nuke-crazed mullahs aren't far away.""

Not far away maybe, and not particularly ""Nuke Crazed"" either, but I suapect that YOU might want some defensive nuclear capability, if your next door neighbour were sitting on a couple of hundred NUCLEAR WARHEADS and the means to deliver them to your front garden at a minute's notice.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:52 PM

It's amazing how you can be nuke-crazed yet have no nukes, innit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:08 PM

"...if your next door neighbour were sitting on a couple of hundred NUCLEAR WARHEADS and the means to deliver them to your front garden at a minute's notice."

And why would they want to do that, pray tell?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:15 PM

Why have they got them then? Decoration?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:26 PM

Its just fun to collect 'em, Steve. Like stamps or baseball cards.
Especially if the USA is buying 'em for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 02:54 AM

Jim, you say, in big coloured capitals, " YOU ARE NOT AN OVERSEER ON THIS SITE - DO NOT TRY TO STOP WHAT YOU CAN'T HANDLE - IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS."
But Jim, you accused me of changing the subject.
You were wrong because it was a direct lift from the OP so not thread drift by any definition.
You made a big font, multicoloured twat of yourself again.

And the film.
The Gatekeepers do not accuse Israel of terrorism, they question the worth of a hard military response to Palestinian terrorism.

Steve,
It's amazing how you can be nuke-crazed yet have no nukes, innit!
Yes. Iran is the strongest military power in the region and threatened by no-one, but it destroys its economy and pauperises its people to acquire nukes.
That would be crazy if they had no purpose for those nukes when they get them.

Why have they got them then? Decoration?
No. Like us for deterrence.
You could question their nuclear intentions 50 years ago, but they have proved themselves responsible.
They have not used them in the face of attack, or even invasion, even when losing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 04:30 AM

"The Gatekeepers do not accuse Israel of terrorism,"
The film - still fresh in my memory - says exactly what I said it did - that Israel has become little better than Nazi Germany.
Perhaps you might like to tell us what you think it did say - you have seen it haven't you?
And as I said - you have less right than anybody else here to cry "thread drift" when you get into trouble - it is a constant practice of yours.
STOP ATTEMPTING TO MANIPULATE DISCUSSIONS.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 04:37 AM

By interviewing six former heads of the Shin Bet, Moreh strives to take this debate to a new level. Not only has he wheeled out some big guns, but he is prepared to use some loaded language as well: Avraham Shalom (career Shin Bet man, head of the agency from 1980 to 1986, pardoned by his political masters for ordering the extra-judicial execution of two Palestinian bus hijackers in 1983) tells Moreh that Israel's military has become "a brutal occupation force" and that Israel is treating the Palestinians in a manner similar to how the Germans treated the Dutch, Poles and others they occupied in World War II.
For many viewers the comparison will shock, and that is the point. It has to be said that throwing the 'Nazi' label around is not an uncommon tactic of Israeli political rhetoric, albeit an extreme one. Still, I suspect few who see the film will be shocked by the comparison to German occupation than one might expect, simply because The Gatekeepers prepares us almost too well for this conclusion. Using the interviews, extensive archival and drone footage, re-enactments, and still-photo diorama techniques, Moreh portrays a Shin Bet intelligence system so comprehensive, so intrusive and so long-lasting that by the time we reached the Shalom comparison to German occupation I was already reminded of a more recent Germany, an authoritarian one founded on Stasi secret service control (constant surveillance, pervasive use of informants, hundreds of thousands of arrests, targeted killing, etc).
http://www.opendemocracy.net/mark-taylor/israel-in-trouble-review-of-gatekeepers-by-dror-moreh


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 04:43 AM

I say it does not accuse Israel of terrorism.
Do you challenge that?
One of the Gatekeepers made a comparison to the Nazis in Poland, where millions were killed.

Steve,
Israel has the fourth biggest army in the world
I Google "biggest armies" and this was first hit.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-countries-with-largest-armies-map.html

Iran comes in at 6 but Israel is not in top ten.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 05:09 AM

This gives Iran at 9 and Egypt at 10.
Israel is not in the ten.
http://www.therichest.org/location/top-10-countries-with-the-biggest-armies-in-the-world/


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 06:32 AM

"I say it does not accuse Israel of terrorism."
If the Nazis were not carrying out terrorist acts in the countries mentioned by the Sin Beth head - how the **** would you describe it
I ask again HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM?
No? - I thought not! It's not on general release in the UK
What has Iran and Egypt to do with this thread BTW?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 06:44 AM

Do any of the 6 accuse Israel of terrorism?
No.
They do say that in response to Palestinian terrorism, Israel should not use military methods.
A political solution would be preferable.

Iran was mentioned first, not by me, in relation to its nuclear aspirations.
Egypt was only mentioned in the OP.I just quoted it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:26 AM

"Do any of the 6 accuse Israel of terrorism?"
Yes they ******* do - in the film they equate the behaviour of present-day Israel with that of the Nazis in the countries the conquered in Europe - Czechoslovakia and Poland springs immediately to mind ARE YOU REALLY SUGGESTING THAT LIDICE AND WARSAW WEREN'T ACTS OF TERRORISM
I ask again:
have you seen the film?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:39 AM

I know from reading many reviews that the six do not accuse Israel of terrorism, only criticising Israel's response to Plaestinian terrorism.
I read this for instance, by Alan Johnson.
I am not uncritical of the film. Moreh should certainly have left one exchange with Avraham Shalom, head of the Shin Bet from 1980 to 1986 on the cutting room floor. Shalom clumsily compares Israel's occupation of the West Bank to the Nazis' treatment of the Poles during World War Two. In fact, some 1.8 to 1.9 million ethnic Polish civilians were victims during the German occupation and a comparison of that genocide to the West Bank after 1967 is worse than ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 07:49 AM

This, by Jordan Mainzer, Huffington Post.

According to Avraham Shalom, head of the Shin Bet from 1981-1986, the Israeli occupation of Palestine is "a brutal force, similar to the Germans in World War II." While pundits have grossly taken this statement out of context to the point where it sounds like Shalom is calling Israelis Nazis, what he really means, as he distinguishes in the film, is that the relationship between Israeli settlers and Palestinians is similar to that between the German army and, say, Poland, not similar to how Germans treated Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:15 AM

You are now telling me what a film that you haven't seen says and doesn't say.
Nobody has mentioned Jews and nobody has compared like-with-like as far as numbers are concerned - I have taken pains throughout all these discussions to say that in this respect there are no comparisons to be made.
Throughout, it talks about deliberate collateral damage, the incitement of the murder of a prime minister and then the refusal to charge those who incited that murder, the bombing of built up areas to kill one 'terrorist.... a whole host of deliberate acts of terrorism.
In essence, the whole film concludes with the accusation that Israel has become a terrorist state and the politicians have ruled out a peaceful solution =- and all this from six heads of the security service.
Produce your reviews, with links or stand exposed as a moronic liar.
Once more you have reverted to giving links to your claims - can't find any decent Zionist extremist quotes, no doubt!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:24 AM

I meant to write "giving no links to your claims", of course.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:35 AM

The six do not describe Israel as "terrorist."
Right?
That is your biased interpretation.
The reviewers obviously saw and studied the film.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100213410/the-gatekeepers-is-an-important-film-friends-of-israel-must-not-dismiss-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jordan-mainzer/is-occupation-sustainable_b_2945811.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:43 AM

it talks about deliberate collateral damage

"deliberate" ?
Are you claiming that the film accuses Israel of that?

"Collateral damage is damage to things that are incidental to the intended target. It is frequently used as a military term where it can refer to the incidental destruction of civilian property and non-combatant casualties"

If deliberate rather than incidental, that would be a crime.
No reviewer I have seen mentions that, and I have read lots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 10:37 AM

"The six do not describe Israel as "terrorist.""
Yes they do Keith - the link you were given first does exactly that - your link to the Telegraph review says that the comparison to the Nazis in Europe "should have been left of the cutting room floor" - whatever way you paint it, these concern acknowledged accusations of terrorism.
The murder of Rabin was an act of terror, the incitement to murder by extremist Rabbis at rallies attended by thousands of people was an act of terror, the failure on the part of the Government to take action against those who incited that murder, both before and after the fact, was collusion in an act of terror, the sanctioning of the dropping of a bomb on an occupied area in order to kill a terrorist was and act of terror..... there are other such examples in the film (which you have not seen and have only offered 2 reviews from the "many" you have claimed to have read).
"Are you claiming that the film accuses Israel of that?"
The deliberate dropping of a bomb in the middle of a town, knowing there were bound to be many casualties was to sanction deliberate 'collateral damage'. Acts such as this have been repeated over and over again in Gaza right up to the last incursion - the killing of non combatants is now par for the course for the Israelis - you should know; you have defended it often enough.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/17/world/meast/israel-gaza-strike-report
http://news.yahoo.com/israel-says-november-gaza-strike-killed-12-civilians-171146644.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/17/world/meast/israel-gaza-strike-report
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 10:42 AM

Whoops - wrong one, should have been this
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=593863
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 02:38 PM

The deliberate dropping of a bomb in the middle of a town, knowing there were bound to be many casualties was to sanction deliberate 'collateral damage'.

No, unless Obama is a terrorist too.
The terrorists are legitimate targets and can be attacked if you make every effort to avoid or minimise collateral casualties.
Israel has always done that.

The murder of Rabin was not terrorism and nothing to do with the government of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 13 - 03:00 PM

"The murder of Rabin was not terrorism and nothing to do with the government of Israel."
The murder of Rabin was carried out by an Israeli terrorist - an act of terrorism.
It was deliberately provoked by mass meetings called by Extremist Rabbis and supported by thousands - an open incitement to terrorism.
Not one of those who organised or spoke at those meetings have been arrested or called to answer the crime that they were actually filmed at - State collusion in terrorism.
"No, unless Obama is a terrorist too."
A moot point - the US at Falujah, Afghanistan and Viet-Nam (and name any state where the CIA has operated) regularly used terror tactics.
The imprisonment and torture of suspects, keeping them in cages for years on end and failing to charge them with any crime are all acts of terror and are recognised as such.
The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR
The sanctioning of the murder of two kidnappers (one of them was kicked to death by soldiers) is an act of terror.
This is a bizarre defence of terrorist atrocities, even by your standards.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 03:22 PM

The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR
No. It is not.
The six say that it is counter-productive for Israel.
You and I might think they are right, but it is not terrorism.
Terrorism is what the Palestinians do- killing civilians deliberately and for no other reason than to terrorise civilians.

The Boston bombs were planted by Americans.
It would be misleading to call that American terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 13 - 08:17 PM

Terrorism is violence causing death and injury to civilians with the aim of affecting the way they behave and the way they think. One of the motives for bombing a civilian district where an adversary is believed to be present is likely be to make people less willing to accept the presence among them of such people. Insofar as this motive is present it means that the bombing is an act of terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:45 AM

No. It is not.

If a person is "willing" to be used to allow terrorists commit murder with impunity, they make terrorists of themselves.
In reality of course, the terrorists care not if the human shields are "willing" or not, and in any case, who can give consent on behalf of a child?

In spite of all that, in the last Gaza operation, the IDF achieved less collateral harm than has ever been achieved in urban warfare before.

The six may say that it did not improve Israel's security, and we might believe them, but they were not accusing themselves of terrorism.
They were responding to Palestinian terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:20 AM

"" -snip- the relationship between Israeli settlers and Palestinians is similar to that between the German army and, say, Poland, not similar to how Germans treated Jews. -snip- ""

When the German occupying forces killed one hundred Poles for any one German soldier killed?

Yes, that seems a fair description of the connection.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:56 AM

"If a person is "willing" to be used to allow terrorists commit murder with impunity, they make terrorists of themselves."

I am afraid that is precisely the argument that has been used to justify attacks aimed at civilian targets in all kinds of conflicts, including most relevantly here, Israeli civilians in buses or cafés. "Since you do not oppose the actions of your government, you are legitimate targets".

In the final analyses this seeks to justify any and every action by parties in a conflict. It amounts to a licence for war criminals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:19 AM

"Yes, that seems a fair description of the connection."

You just can't help yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:04 AM

"I am afraid that is precisely the argument that has been used to justify attacks aimed at civilian targets"
It was exactly the excuse that the Nazis gave for the Lidice massacre following the assassination of Heydrich.
Keith has regularly accused Hamas of using human shields and hiding in occupied area - seems that his argument here is a movable feast to be applied as it suits his argument.
He has also stridently denied that he is in favour of killing hostages - which he appears now to be supporting.
"The six say that it is counter-productive for Israel."
Yet they also say that this is what was being done.
You have yet to respond to the fact that this is now regular practice by the Israelis, particulsarly during the last Gaza incursion (or are the links you have been given also "lies"?)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:10 AM

In the final analyses this seeks to justify any and every action by parties in a conflict. It amounts to a licence for war criminals.

No. International law is quite clear on this.
Collective punishment is not allowed.
Targeting civilians is not allowed.
You may target an enemy illegally operating in a civilian area if you make all reasonable efforts to avoid or minimise civilian casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:29 AM

Yes International law condemns Israel for punishing collectively Palestinians. Rachel Corrie was targeted for defending the destruction of Palestinian homes.

Whose to say what is legal in targeting an "enemy" in a civilian area? And there is no
attempt to avoid or minimize Palestinian casualties. This is not true.

The small hope for Israel has to do with the people of Israel who still have a conscience and they are there protesting the brutal tactics of Netanyahu and the Israeli military.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:16 AM

As I said, they achieved an extraordinarily and historically low number of civilian casualties, and some of those, like the BBC man's child, transpired to be from Palestinian missiles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:55 AM

"You may target an enemy illegally operating in a civilian area if you make all reasonable efforts to avoid or minimise civilian casualties."
Can you show us how they cases here "took reasonable efforts" to avoid or minimise casualties while dropping a bomb on a block of flats (also those that were dropped during the incursion)
How do you define "illegally operating" - as the targets discussed were not "operating", but living there?
"As I said, they achieved an extraordinarily and historically low number of civilian casualties,"
Utter crap - where is your evidence to back this up?
"The head of the Shin Bet reported to the Israeli Cabinet that of the 810 Palestinians killed in Gaza in 2006 and 2007, 200 were civilians (a ratio of approximately 1:3). Haaretz assessed this to be an underestimation of civilian casualties. Using B'tselem's figures they calculated that 816 Palestinians had been killed in Gaza during the two-year period, 360 of whom were civilians.[25] 1,010 Israelis were killed between September 29, 2000 and January 1, 2005. Of these, 773 were civilians killed in Palestinian attacks, resulting in a ratio of approximately 5:1.[26]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israeli.E2.80.93Palestinian_conflict
Are we to take it that you no longer oppose the killing of civilians?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 13 - 11:13 AM

The point I was making is where civilians are killed in order to deter the civilian population from cooperating with the other side, or to punish it for doing so, that is in itself an act of terrorism. It is in fact an extreme form of hostage taking.

The Boston Marathon bombing would appear to fall into this category of terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 13 - 12:17 PM

Incidentally - none of this "international law" invention is in any way relevant to any of this.
These were ASSASSINATIONS - no combat involved asn acts of terror in their own right.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:44 PM

Can you show us how they cases here "took reasonable efforts" to avoid or minimise casualties
Yes.
In accordance with the law, warning were issued before the strikes, and highly accurate munitions used near civilian homes.

How do you define "illegally operating"
Firing indiscriminate missiles loaded with explosives and fragments at civilians.

"As I said, they achieved an extraordinarily and historically low number of civilian casualties,"
Utter crap - where is your evidence to back this up?

How selective your memory is Jim!
We have discussed this all before.
I think it was Bobad who first posted the statistics with comparisons to recent similar actions like the NATO airstrikes in Yugoslavia.


Incidentally - none of this "international law" invention is in any way relevant to any of this.

Yes it is.
The IDF action was in response to the rain of anti-personnel missiles on its people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 13 - 05:43 PM

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:14 AM

Don, they hit about 1500 targets in a heavily populated area and only killed about 100 civilians.

That means either that they are total incompetents at killing civilians, or they are brilliant at missing them.

 Israel issued written warnings and made thousands of phone calls to Gaza residents, advising them to stay far away
from terrorist installations that would be targeted in air strikes.
Only 25 percent of those killed during NATO's operations in Kosovo were combatants, and that was a much less densely populated than Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:33 PM

Of 167 Palestinians killed in the last Gaza "war" 69 were identified by Israel as combatants. A fifth of the civilians killed were children under 12.

True enough if Israel had been aiming to maximise killing they could have killed a great many more, as they had demonstrated back in 2009 when well over a thousand were killed, most of them civilians and hundredsof those being children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 02:50 AM

AS I pointed out, this was not legitimate combat - it was an assassination where rules of combat do not apply.
To carry out such an assassination on the homes of civilians IS YET ANOTHER ISRAELI WAR CRIME
"Israel issued written warnings and made thousands of phone calls to Gaza residents, advising them to stay far away "
It was a secret operation - no advance warning was given.
Assuming you are deliberately avoiding the assassination and talking about the last incursion:
"phone calls to Gaza residents, advising them to stay far away "
Where do you suggest that the entire population of Gaza should have evacuated themselves to - are you seriously suggesting that the Israelis announced which homes were to be bombed in order to kill terrorists, in advance?
CAN YOU PLEASE GIVE LINKS TO ALL THESE CLAIMS OR DO YOU INTEND TO CONTINUE MAKING UP THIS INFORMATION AS YOU GO ALONG?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:02 AM

McG, some estimates of those casualties are given here.
IDF did target Hamas Police, regarding them as combatants.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War

Jim I was referring to Pillar of Cloud operation.
Are you talking about something else?
Please be specific re what you think need verifying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:46 AM

"Jim I was referring to Pillar of Cloud operation."
I don't give a **** what you were referring to - the discussion was about a bomb being dropped on an apartment block in order to kill a claimed terrorist - that was the thread of the discussion which arose from the statements by the Shin Beth heads.
If what they say was accurate this is a war crime despite your claims that killing civilians in order to carry out an assassination is acceptable - and before you claim you never said such a thing:
"The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR"
No. It is not.
You and I might think they are right, but it is not terrorism."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:56 AM

And by the way - I specified exactly what I was referring to, I made several point on the contradictions in your claims and asked a specific question - I also requested that you provided linked evidence to your claims - please respond to all of these.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:10 AM

It is legitimate to target an enemy combatant, uniformed or terrorist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:20 AM

The quote of mine you quoted, you also edited Jim.
Actual quote,
"The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR
No. It is not.
The six say that it is counter-productive for Israel.
You and I might think they are right, but it is not terrorism.
Terrorism is what the Palestinians do- killing civilians deliberately and for no other reason than to terrorise civilians."


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:29 AM

That is not "editing anything Keith - do not accuse me of what you did persistently once upon a time before you stopped supplying links in order to disclose that your "quotes" were from Zionist hate sites or were made up by you.
I selected the line that was relevant - that you are claiming that dropping bombs on an apartment block in order to assassinate a claimed and untried "terrorist" is a war crime.
You are now attempting to evade the consequences of that statement with a diversion.
DELIBERATELY DROPPING A BOMB ON AN OCCUPIED APARTMENT BLOCK IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS AN ACT OF TERROR AND A WAR CRIME - IF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE PRODUCE (LINKED) PROOF THAT IT IS NOT.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:50 AM

Some context for all this - death toll since 2,000
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 13 - 09:14 AM

Police officers are not legitimate military targets. They are of course a very common target in many conflicts, and such attacks are generally recognised as terrorist acts, whoever carries them out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:20 AM

McG, that is an opinion.
An alternative opinion, "Human Rights Watch stated that police are presumptively civilians but are considered valid targets if formally incorporated into the armed forces of a party to a conflict or directly participate in the hostilities.[35] The IDF made clear that it regards police under the control of Hamas in Gaza to be inherently equivalent to armed fighters, including them in the militant's count.[31] The PCHR representative argued however that Israel wrongly classified 255 police officers killed at the outset of the war as militants,[36] explaining that International Law regards policemen who are not engaged in fighting as non-combatants or civilians.[31] Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) compiled a report saying that during Gaza War many supposedly civil policemen were at the same time operatives in Hamas's military wing.[37] ITIC stated that Hamas' military wing recruits police officers for military operations and that police forces were drafted to fight Israel during the war in January 2009.[38] One of ITIC bulletins also presented supposed evidence of Hamas policy to hide details of Hamas men who got killed or injured in the fighting.[39]
B'Tselem in its fatalities' figures report wrote that it knew many police officers in the Gaza Strip are also members of the military wings of Palestinian armed groups, and might have taken part in hostilities against Israel. At the same time, the NGO did not possess concrete information on integration of police officers in the combat forces of Hamas and was unable to determine whether all the police officers were legitimate targets or whether the Palestinian police in Gaza, as an institution, is part of the combat forces of Hamas, all of whose members carry out a continuous combat function. For these reasons, police officers that were killed in an attack aimed at police or police stations, were listed by B'Tselem in a separate category.[24]
The controversial Goldstone Report concluded that while there were many individual Gaza policemen who were members of militant groups, the Gaza police forces were a civilian police force and "cannot be said to have been taking a direct part in hostilities and thus did not lose their civilian immunity from direct attack as civilians".[40] The report did not "rule out the possibility that there might be individuals in the police force who retain their links to the armed groups" but finds no evidence that the police were part of the Gaza armed forces and that it "could not verify the allegations of membership of armed groups of policemen."[40] NGO UN Watch noted that the Goldstone Report relies on the testimony of the Gaza police spokesperson Islam Shahwan and accepts the interpretation of his own words "face the enemy" as meaning "distributing food stuffs".[41] In the initial response to the fact-finding mission's report, issued on September 24, 2009, the Israeli Government further added that "in seeking to support its assertion" that the police in Gaza were a civilian police force, not only did the committee reinterpret some of the evidence, but also ignored other explicit statements of the police officials, e.g. the alleged admission by Hamas police chief Jamal al-Jarrah that "the police took part in the fighting alongside the resistance".[42]
The ICT said that many of those listed by PCHR as civilians, including civil policemen, were in fact hailed as militant martyrs by Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:25 AM

guidelines of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) published in June 2009. The ICRC opined that anyone who fulfills a "continuous combat function" should be considered a combatant even if he is not taking a direct part in hostilities at the moment he is killed and a person who does not fulfill a continuous combat function, but is killed when directly participating in hostilities, is also considered a combatant;

This from the page I linked to earlier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:55 AM

'Police officers are not legitimate military targets. They are of course a very common target in many conflicts, and such attacks are generally recognised as terrorist acts, whoever carries them out'.

Moot point. The Royal Irish Constabulary (and, after 1922, the Royal Ulster Constabulary) were constituted as a centrally-controlled armed force, outside of the nominal local, civilian control which governed policing in the rest of the UK (apart from the Met, which falls under the Home Office). Indeed, the RUC was the only UK police force whose budget and establishment were included in the United Kingdom Statememt of Defence Estimates (the annual publication which outlines British military spending for the upcoming year). Not that I'm condoning or advocating killing coppers, but in the case of Northern Ireland the distinction between the military and civilian security apparatuses (apparati?) is (or was) something of a false one. That is, I would think, even more so in heavily-militarised parts of the world like the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:15 AM

My last was in reply to, "DELIBERATELY DROPPING A BOMB ON AN OCCUPIED APARTMENT BLOCK IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS AN ACT OF TERROR AND A WAR CRIME - IF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE PRODUCE (LINKED) PROOF THAT IT IS NOT."


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:29 AM

Refresh, awaiting Jim's return.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 09:32 AM

Jim is back but avoiding the thread he himself restarted just a few days ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:44 AM

""Are we to take it that you no longer oppose the killing of civilians?""

He never did! He just denied all evidence relating to it except when an Israeli died.

I should have thought you would have picked up on the fact that he considers frightening Israelis to be a far worse crime than killing Arab men women and children who have the misfortune to be in the blast radius of a bomb aimed at one "terrorist", identified as such, of course, only by the Israelis.

Look back at his posts about Israelis cowering in fear in their shelters, while Gaza civilians have no shelters because Israel won't allow the materials to build them.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 May 13 - 11:08 AM

There can be no justification for violence on either Israeli or Palestinian sides. But the egregious attitude is to ignore one side in favor of the other, to excuse Israeli military violence for any reason and to ignore the oppression of the Palestinian people by the Israeli military.

This kind of idolatry is symptomatic of a "true believer" who will accept no other way of looking at the issue.

Fortunately, there are many Jews, and their number is growing, that see the perversion of the Zionist movement by Netanyhu and his henchmen.

Israel has become a theocracy and has extinguished its earlier socialist movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:48 PM

So Don, you think the murderous illegal missiles were OK because they only terrorised families without killing too many.
No matter that people and kids have to huddle underground instead of school and work.
No matter that people were driven out of S.Israel.
No sign of prejudice there then.
You are a nasty, bigoted person.

Gazan families do not need shelters because nobody is targeting them.

Tell Jim that Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd missile at its people.
The target must have been deeply involved in the missile programme.
As Red Cross states, that makes him a combatant and a legitimate target.
If he surrounds himself with human sandbags, none but he is responsible for the harm he brings to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:53 AM

"Tell Jim that Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd missile at its people."

No. It amounts attacks on collective Palestinian people for the works of an individual "odd missile". Highly disproportionate response. "Cast Lead". "Pillar of Cloud".

This is not justice but war-mongering for the purpose of expanding the perversion of Zionism. And this is not an anti-Semitic statement since Zionists can't claim the general
name of Semitic which involves many people in the Middle East.

The solution is to return to the justice of David ben-Gurion and turn Israel into a socialist state that embraces Palestinians giving them equal political voice as well as immigrant Jews.

More dictators that Israel supports: Ronald Reagan, G.W.Bush and Richard Nixon.

To quote Bush: "Dictatorship is fine as long as I'm the dictator". (very funny!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:28 PM

Not disproportionate enough to actually stop them firing their Jew killing missiles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:49 PM

But there are more Palestinian killing missiles. The casualties on the Gaza side are far greater than in Israel.

I don't like missiles and I think that to fire them is wrong. But I don't see how Israel can absolve itself in its contribution to genocide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:54 AM

its contribution to genocide.
!
It goes to extraordinary lengths not to kill Gazans while trying to stop the indiscriminate, murderous missiles launched as part of a mission to kill any and all Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:52 AM

"Jim is back but avoiding the thread he himself restarted just a few days ago."
Are you still stalking me?
You are still providing nothing but your own twisted opinions, you are not attempting to qualify those opinions, you are not responding to the LINKED information you have been given, you are still rejecting out-of-hand anything that vaguely puts Israel in a poor light, you continue to ignore the official condemnation of Israel by the UN for its terrorist activities and the evidence provided by Amnesty, Jews For Justice, Human Rights Watch....
YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE THE FACT THAT DROPPING A BOMB ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS A BLATENT ACT OF TERRORISM - A WAR CRIME.
Why on earth should I waste my time on a sad, attention-seeking moron who seems to be getting it off of State terrorism and ethnic cleansing.
Say something worth listening to and you have my undivided attention - go on as you are doing and you continue to be a one-man freak show.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:05 AM

YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE THE FACT THAT DROPPING A BOMB ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS A BLATENT ACT OF TERRORISM - A WAR CRIME.
I provided a linked quote from ICRC that it was not.
You chose to restart this thread Jim, so do not complain that other posters rubbish your claims and weak arguments on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:56 AM

Nobody has "rubbished" my claim Keith - you are still on your own as an apologist for war crimes - this is a moronic monologue by you - a repetition of "Israel didn't do it".
Your UNLINKED claim by the International Red Cross referred to people who served a "continuous combat function" - which doesn't come anywhere near to describing the slaughter of apartment dwellers who might or might not have lived in an apartment block as a terrorist - at best it is support for the killing of hostages (by your own past description), but the intervies with the Shin Beth men showed it to be an act of calculated murder which is now established as accepted tactics by Israel.
IT IS DISTORTIONS SUCH AS THIS THAT MAKES YOUR INPUT HERE NO MORE THAN ATROCITY AND WAR-CRIMES DENIAL
You have provided no proof whatever of your claims and nor will you; as you said yourself, the only proof you have been able to find are the excuses and denials by Israel and her acolytes.
GFY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 05:04 AM

Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd murder missile at its people.
It would help if you named the target, but he must have been deeply involved in the missile programme.
As Red Cross states, that makes him a combatant and a legitimate target.

If he surrounds himself with human sandbags, none but he is responsible for the harm he brings to them.
Israel has a right to strike back at such war criminals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 06:01 AM

This iis typical of your continual lying - Israel has now made it common practice to target "terrorists" in their homes, no matter how many non combatants are concerned - you even responded to this in the past with some crap about mobile phones.
Killing "human sandbags" is killing hostages pure and simple - you have said you are against this.
Your own support for British fascists (in wartime) by describing them as "harmless" and your attempts to link Israeli war crimes with being Jewish makes you an anti-Semite.
Your repetitive attempts to evade the consequences of your own arguments makes you a bore
You are a lying apologist for terrorism.
You a bi-polar mess.
Fuck off and close the door behind you.
Over and out.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 06:27 AM

- Israel has now made it common practice to target "terrorists" in their homes, no matter how many non combatants are concerned - you even responded to this in the past with some crap about mobile phones.
Not true Jim, as this video proves. (PROVES!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE

Your own support for British fascists (in wartime) by describing them as "harmless"
Another Jim lie.
and your attempts to link Israeli war crimes with being Jewish makes you an anti-Semite.
Another Jim lie.
You are a lying apologist for terrorism.
Another Jim lie.

I don't lie Jim, and have no need to anyway.
Your false claims need constant lies to prop them up, but they fall down anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 07:40 AM

And your proof that Israel doesn't target occupied homes - an unidentified and virtually impenetrable film clip claiming that somebody did something somewhere - Proof - you are a joke Keith
And the rest as usual - "Lies, Lies and Lies"

As I said boring and very, very disturbed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 07:49 AM

Israel does target the homes of combatants.
That is legal.
In the video an attack was prevented by the use of human shields including children.
That is illegal.
Voluntary shields are entitled to no consideration, but IDF aborted the attack anyway.
IDF shows more concern for Palestinian lives than Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 08:06 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkEzJZGNyMI
Israel [edit]
The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]
Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] said the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]
In February 2007, Associated Press Television News released footage of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian. The video appears to show the West Bank resident serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers.[31][32] The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident.[31] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank raid.[33]
During the 2008-2009 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and former Israeli soldiers (see Breaking the Silence). According to testimonies, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[34][35]
The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during 2008-2009 Gaza Conflict[36][37]
The Guardian has compiled three videos[38] and testimony from civilians of alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza war, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields, the targeting of medics and hospitals, and drone aircraft firing on civilians deliberately.[39] Three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family have claimed that "they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them".[39]
An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[39]
However, in a report on the Gaza conflict,[40] released July 2, 2009, Amnesty International wrote that Israel did use human shields in Gaza. Amnesty claimed to have found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk. The report also criticized Hamas for human rights violations, but "found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings".[41] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas".
On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[42] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[43][44][45]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield

Two Israeli soldiers who used a nine-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield were given suspended sentences and demoted after being convicted of "inappropriate conduct".
The unnamed soldiers, from the Givati Brigade, ordered Majeh Rabah, from the Tel al-Hawa neighbourhood in Gaza City, to check bags for explosives in January 2009, towards the end of Israel's three-week offensive.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/21/israeli-soldiers-human-shield-avoid-jail
ALL OF WHICH PROVES NOTHING MORE THAN BAD THINGS HAPPEN IN WAR AND HAVE NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH TERRORIST STATES DROPPING BOMBS ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS TO ASSASSINATE TERRORISTS - WHICH THEY WERE IDENTIFIED AS DOING IN THE LAST INCURSION, AND WHICH THE SHIN BETH MEN SAID WAS A LONG-TERM PRACTICE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 09:25 AM

TERRORIST STATES DROPPING BOMBS ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS TO ASSASSINATE TERRORISTS - WHICH THEY WERE IDENTIFIED AS DOING IN THE LAST INCURSION, AND WHICH THE SHIN BETH MEN SAID WAS A LONG-TERM PRACTICE

It is legal to target a combatant, even when not engaged in hostilities.
It is not a terrorist act.(See quote from International Committee of Red Cross linked to earlier.)
It was never disputed that it was a long-term practice.

Firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians, firing from civilian areas and using human shields to prevent counter strikes are all serious war crimes, not just committed by rogue individuals, but as standard operational procedure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 May 13 - 10:53 AM

"It is legal to target a combatant, even when not engaged in hostilities."

The world is filled with unjust, cold, inhuman and callous legalities. That proves nothing.

"Firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians, firing from civilian areas and using human shields to prevent counter strikes are all serious war crimes, not just committed by rogue individuals, but as standard operational procedure."

And Israel is guilty of all of these. And the human shields is a popular lie.

Standard operational procedures has made Israel a pariah of the world.

Jim, Keith has slammed the door on legitimate evidence but your presentation may help others on this site to see the bigger picture. Thanks for doing so.

Again, what is your motivation for your support of Israel Keith? Are you or not a Christian fundamentalist who has a biblical injunction to protect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 10:55 AM

"It is legal to target a combatant, even when not engaged in hostilities."
These are not combatants being targeted - they are not even proven "terrorists", it is the indiscriminate killing of everybody who happen to be in the vicinity - that is a war crime when no opposition being offered and the suspects are merely going about their everyday lives.   
The dropping of a bomb on apartments containing a large number of families can neither be described as lawful killing in combat, nor can those families be described as "hostages" - that is the term you have chosen to justify what has been described by human rights organisations and by the UN as "war crimes" - it has been defended by the the US vetos - totally unnecessarily if they had been legal.
Even the Yanks have found it necessary to invent a new term, "collateral damage" to justify it.      
"Firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians, firing from civilian areas and using human shields to prevent counter strikes are all serious war crimes" ..... have all been perpetrated by the Israelis at one time or another - you've just been presented with a batch of human shields used by them. Israel has indiscriminately targeted homes, schools, hospitals and entire streets in their incursions, and from even before the state was set up Jewish "freedom fighters" were throwing hand grenades into occupied houses to clear the ground of Arabs - these are historically documented facts.
The more I read the obscene filth that you write, the more I find myself in total agreement with the Shin Beth guys who pointed out that "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter". It is Israel's expansionist policy that is the cause of these hostilities, it is the refusal by them to negotiate a settlement, (as claimed by the security officials), that is prolonging it, and it is all the evidence that has been presented to you throughout these discussions that makes Israel a fascist, ethnic cleansing state with no regard for human life, and recognised as such by the rest of the world, including decent humane Israelis.
People who carry out atrocities such as these are war criminals and those who support and justify them are sick bastards.
Take your one-man defence of war crimes and shove them - we've got the message - Israel can do no wrong and is quite happy to plumb the depth because they can rely on the US veto to bail them out, just as Assad can rely on Russia and China to do the same in Syria - whence the difference?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:02 AM

Battle of Gaza [edit]
Main article: Battle of Gaza (2007)
Throughout June 7 and 15, of fighting Hamas took control of the main north–south road and the coastal road.[20] and removed Fatah officials. The ICRC estimated that at least 118 people were killed and more than 550 wounded during the fighting in the week up to June 15.[21] Human Rights Watch accused both sides with violations of international humanitarian law. Including the targeting and killing of civilians, public executions of political opponents and captives, throwing prisoners off high-rise apartment buildings, fighting in hospitals, and shooting from a jeep marked with "TV" insignias.[22] The International Committee of the Red Cross has denounced attacks in and around two hospitals in the northern part of the Gaza strip.[23] The Israeli government closed all check-points on the borders of Gaza in response to the violence.



"People who carry out atrocities such as these are war criminals and those who support and justify them are sick bastards."


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:07 AM

On November 12, a large demonstration dedicated to the memory of late Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat was organized by Fatah in Gaza City. With over 200,000 participants, this was the largest Fatah demonstration in the Gaza Strip since the Hamas takeover. The demonstration was forcibly dispersed by Hamas gunmen, who fired into the crowd. At least six civilians were killed and over 80 people were injured, some from being trampled in the resulting stampede.[37] The smaller militant group Islamic Jihad, whose members have clashed with Hamas several times, condemned the shootings.
2008-present [edit]
On January 1, 2008, at least eight people died in factional fighting in the Gaza Strip.[38]
On May 31, 2009, six people were killed as Palestinian Authority and Hamas forces clashed in Qalqilya. Ethan Bronner described the fighting as an indication "that the Palestinian unity needed for creation of a state is far off."[39]
In 2011, Commission for Human Rights (ICHR), observed that "due to the failure of the reconciliation efforts between Fatah and Hamas throughout 2010, and the ongoing internal political division, the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have been the main victims of the political dispute between both combatant parties," the report observed. Noting the "overwhelming majority" of prisoners being political prisoners as well as "delayed, circumvented or ignored rulings by Palestinian court" and "rise in torture allegations from the previous year".[40] Both groups nevertheless expressed willingness to tackle the issue of political prisoners as a gesture of goodwill. Hamas spokesman Taher al-Nunu said the group would grant amnesty to some 30 Fatah-affiliated political prisoners held after the group took over the Gaza Strip in 2007. Fatah's Sha'ath, also speaking in Gaza, said preparations were underway to release dozens of Hamas prisoners being held in the West Bank.[40]


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:07 AM

Source of last cut and paste and what are the footnotes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:08 AM

According to B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, 500 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians from September 29, 2000 to March 31, 2012 in Israel, and another 254 Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.[71]
B'tselem reported that the main argument used to justify violence against civilians is that "all means are legitimate in fighting for independence against a foreign occupation". B'Tselem criticized this argument, saying it is completely baseless, and contradicts the fundamental principle of international humanitarian law.
"According to this principle, civilians are to be protected from the consequences of warfare , and any attack must discriminate between civilians and military targets. This principle is part of international customary law; as such, it applies to every state, organization, and person, even those who are not party to any relevant convention."[72]
B'Tselem further noted that Palestinian spokespersons distinguish between attacks inside Israel proper and attacks directed at settlers in the Occupied Territories, stating that since the settlements are illegal and many settlers belong to Israel's security forces, settlers are not entitled to the international law protections granted to civilians. Human rights group B'tselem rejected this argument, and stated:
"The illegality of the settlements has no effect at all on the status of their civilian residents. The settlers constitute a distinctly civilian population, which is entitled to all the protections granted civilians by international law. The Israeli security forces' use of land in the settlements or the membership of some settlers in the Israeli security forces does not affect the status of the other residents living among them, and certainly does not make them proper targets of attack. B'Tselem strongly opposes the attempts to justify attacks against Israeli civilians by using distorted interpretations of international law. Furthermore, B'Tselem demands that the Palestinian Authority do everything within its power to prevent future attacks and to prosecute the individuals involved in past attacks."[72]
Rocket attacks within the green line [edit]
See also: Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel


Israeli boy crippled by Palestinian rocket fire.
Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip have occurred since 2001. Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries,[73][74] as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life.[75]
The weapons, often generically referred to as Qassams, were initially crude and short-range, mainly affecting the Israeli city of Sderot and other communities bordering the Gaza Strip. However, in 2006 more sophisticated rockets began to be deployed, reaching the larger coastal city of Ashkelon, and by early 2009 major cities Ashdod and Beersheba had been hit by Katyusha and Grad rockets.
Attacks have been carried out by all Palestinian armed groups,[76] and, prior to the 2008–2009 Gaza War, were consistently supported by most Palestinians,[77][78][79][80] although the stated goals have been mixed. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
Defenses constructed specifically to deal with the weapons include fortifications for schools and bus stops as well as an alarm system named Red Color. Iron Dome, a system to intercept short-range rockets, was developed by Israel and first deployed in the spring of 2011 to protect Beersheba and Ashkelon, but officials and experts warned that it would not be completely effective. Shortly thereafter, it intercepted a Palestinian Grad rocket for the first time.[81]
The attacks were a stated cause of the Gaza blockade, the Gaza War (Dec 27, 2008 – Jan 21, 2009) and other Israeli military operations in the Gaza Strip, including Operation Rainbow (May 2004), Operation Days of Penitence (2004), the 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict, Operation Autumn Clouds (2006), and Operation Hot Winter (2008).
Attacks began in 2001. Since then, nearly 4,800 rockets have hit southern Israel, just over 4,000 of them since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. The range of the rockets has increased over time. The original Qassam rocket has a range of about 10 km (6.2 mi) but more advanced rockets, including versions of the old Soviet Grad or Katyusha have hit Israeli targets 40 km (25 mi) from Gaza.[73]
Some analysts see the attacks as a shift away from reliance on suicide bombing, which was previously Hamas's main method of attacking Israel, and an adoption of the rocket tactics used by Lebanese militant group Hezbollah.[82]
Denial of service attacks on the emergency services [edit]
There have been a number of reports in the Israeli press about denial of service attacks by Palestinians on the Magen David Adom and other emergency call lines.[83][84][85][86][87][88][89] A spokesman said that they had received up to 2400 harassing calls per day to the Beersheba MDA office[85] deputy Mayor of Sderot said that after investigation that Palestinians were blocking the ability[84] of citizens to seek for help after mortar and missile attacks, According to the MDA director in the Negev some callers identified themselves as Palestinians and said that they had been paid to make the calls.[85] The director said the calls were intended to block the MDA's ability to provide emergency services particularly during major events such as mortar[86] attacks.[85] As of 2006[85][87] filtering systems had been developed and deployed to handle with this type of calls, according to MDA 2008 report one filtering system recognized more than 129,000 phone calls as abusive calls.[90]


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:12 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_conflict




37.^ al-Mughrabi, Nidal (November 12, 2007). "Gunfire kills seven at Fatah rally in Gaza". Reuters.

38.^ "Eight dead in Gaza faction clash". BBC News. January 1, 2008. Retrieved May 2, 2010.

39.^ "6 Die as Palestinian Authority Forces Clash with Hamas." New York Times, June 1, 2009, Ethan Bronner [2]

40.^ a b c "Hamas and Fatah hammered for human rights abuses against their own people". thenational. 19May 2011. Retrieved 4 January 2013.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:15 AM

20.^ "How Hamas took over the Gaza Strip". BBC News. June 15, 2007. Retrieved January 4, 2010.

21.^ Gaza-Westbank – ICRC Bulletin No. 22 / 2007, AlertNet. Retrieved June 16, 2007.

22.^ Gaza: Armed Palestinian Groups Commit Grave Crimes, Human Rights Watch, June 13, 2007.

23.^ Hospitals offer no safety in Gaza strip, ABC News, June 13, 2007.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:41 AM

But for the missiles, Israel would not have to take action against them.
IDF only targeted in that way confirmed combatants.
The Shin Bet 6 confirmed that.
Israel acted within the law, Hamas were guilty of indiscriminately attacking civilians, operating from civilian areas and placing people as human shields.

The 6 might be right that Israel's security was not improved, but Israel's actions in response to the missiles was restrained and legal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM

You want to flood this site with meaningless out of context claims
"The Shin Bet 6 confirmed that."
Can you substantiate this?
Jim Carroll

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-war-crimes-against-palestine-witness-testimonies/5312862

Israeli War Crimes against Palestine: Witness Testimonies
Hearings of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC)
By Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC)
Global Research, November 25, 2012
Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission
Region: Middle East & North Africa
In-depth Report: CRIMINALIZE WAR, PALESTINE
306    98 46    1853

Global Research Editor's Note

At the height of the bombing of Gaza, legal proceedings directed against the State of Israel involving the initial hearings of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission were launched in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. The decision to launch these proceedings was taken by the Commission in May of 2012.

Pertaining to alleged Israeli war crimes, the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission heard the testimonies of nine complainants.

The following summary of testimonies presented to the Commission provides a historical background on Israeli crimes against humanity extending from the Sabra Shatila Massacres to the 2008-2009 Operation Cast Lead, which resulted in the killings of entire families.

We invite our readers to carefully examine these witness testimonies. They are of crucial importance in an understanding of the current situation in Gaza. Selected excerpts and quotations below. Scroll down for prosecutors' press release :

"Why were the young children killed? [Gaza, January 2009]They are so young and cannot even hold a stone. Like my brother Ahmad. My cousins who were infants were also killed. I have heard that the soldier who kills more – and younger children – moves up higher in ranks."

"What did the children do to deserve to die this way? What did the women do to become widows and what did the old people do to see all this? Nobody is defending us. It is like we are nothing. We do not have a normal happy life like other children. Where is the human right of the child?"

Mahmoud who was only 12-years-old at the time of 2009 attacks, saw his father shot in cold blood by the Israeli soldiers. He told the panel that he and his friends were playing football and mud balls around a fruit tree when they saw F16 planes flying in the area and shooting bombs and missiles.

Displaying maturity beyond his young age, Mahmoud related the terrifying ordeal he and his family underwent during the January 2009 attacks. The soldiers while shooting randomly at the family shot his 4-year-old brother twice in the chest and once in the head and four of his other brothers in their legs and behind the ear.

[Gaza, January 2009] "I went to her and realized that my mother (Rahma Mohammed Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 43) died with half of her face blown away. My father (Talal Hilmy Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 49) and my only daughter (Aza Salah Talal Al-Samony, then aged 2.5) also died, with their face disfigured. A total of 21 of my family members died. More than 50 of them were injured. There was screaming, shouting and crying. Blood was everywhere. I lifted my daughter and she had wounds on her neck and stomach. She was dead. Then, I heard my wife calling my name. I went to her. There were a lot of dead bodies on top of her. Then, I slowly pulled her out. She was injured and she was covered in blood. Three of my sons were badly injured and the other one had difficulties in breathing even now."

In the early hours of the morning [Sabra and Shatila witness testimony], about 16-17 armed soldiers entered her home and shot her husband, brother and cousin dead in front of her and children. She related that militia entered homes and shot at everyone including children and animals.

"Along the way to the stadium, I saw my cousin's daughter who was pregnant lying dead. The murderers had opened her body and taken out her baby and put the baby on her. The child was dead as well. She was lying on the street."

"Along the street there were a lot of dead bodies. Hundreds of bodies were strewn all over. We climbed a hill to the stadium. At the nearest houses I could see bodies of children. Between the houses, which had been half destroyed, there were bodies of men, and also women and children and animals."

On May 11 2012 the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal rendered a historical guilty verdict in The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission v. George Walker Bush et al . The decision to launch a legal war crimes procedure against the State of Israel was taken by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission in the wake of this historic judgment.

Michel Chossudovsky,

Director of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG) and Member of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission,

Kuala Lumpur, November 22, 2012

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

I – KUALA LUMPUR, 20 November 2012 – The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission commenced hearing the testimonies of four of the nine complainants today. The prosecution team had intended to present 11 witnesses at the two-day Commission hearing, but only nine could make it to Kuala Lumpur. Two of the witnesses were unable to make it due to the current Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

The prosecution's first witness was 33-year-old Palestinian Salah Al Sammouni who testified to the 5-panel Commission that 21 members of his family including his father, mother and only infant daughter were killed during a massive Israeli attack in the al-Zaytoun neighbourhood in the South-East of Gaza on 5 January 2009. The remaining 52 injured members of his family and Salah himself (covered in blood and shrapnel) amid firing bullets managed to make their way out of the neighbourhood and found civilians who were kind enough to drive them to the hospital.

He testified that the Israeli military forces, who had bombed their house three times, had denied entry to the Red Cross and hospital ambulances into neighbourhood to tend to the wounded. The ambulances only managed to make their way into his neighbourhood three days after the attack. During the attacks, a sharp metal piece had pierced his forehead and until today the doctors are unable to remove that metal piece.

Here an excerpt of his testimony –

"A short while after the explosion, I heard a very loud explosion about 2 or 3 times. There was dust all over the house. I could not see anything. Later, I saw one missile come through the roof; another from the window and the third one, I do not from where. I then looked around and I saw my mother. I went to her and realized that my mother (Rahma Mohammed Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 43) died with half of her face blown away. My father (Talal Hilmy Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 49) and my only daughter (Aza Salah Talal Al-Samony, then aged 2.5) also died, with their face disfigured. A total of 21 of my family members died. More than 50 of them were injured. There was screaming, shouting and crying. Blood was everywhere. I lifted my daughter and she had wounds on her neck and stomach. She was dead. Then, I heard my wife calling my name. I went to her. There were a lot of dead bodies on top of her. Then, I slowly pulled her out. She was injured and she was covered in blood. Three of my sons were badly injured and the other one had difficulties in breathing even now."

Salah's 15-year-old cousin, Mahmoud Al Sammouni, one of the few survivors of the same attack on that fateful day, also gave his statement at the hearing. However, the young teen could only give part of his testimony to the panel as he had received word that more of his family members were killed in the current conflict in the last few days. He will continue to give his testimony on Wednesday.

Mahmoud who was only 12-years-old at the time of 2009 attacks, saw his father shot in cold blood by the Israeli soldiers. He told the panel that he and his friends were playing football and mud balls around a fruit tree when they saw F16 planes flying in the area and shooting bombs and missiles. He related that there were also many soldiers on the grounds shooting at the walls of homes. He also saw parachutists coming down and landing on the highest buildings in the area and anyone who went out of their homes were shot dead.

Displaying maturity beyond his young age, Mahmoud related the terrifying ordeal he and his family underwent during the January 2009 attacks. The soldiers while shooting randomly at the family shot his 4-year-old brother twice in the chest and once in the head and four of his other brothers in their legs and behind the ear.

He related that they walked barefooted to seek help at the Al Shifa Hospital. "We went to the main road. Along the way we saw a lot of blood on the street, spent bullet shells, shoes. Iron and metal pieces were all across the street so that no one could pass. The soldiers were shooting randomly and people were scared. As we walked along the road, we saw a tank at the side of the road. It was facing the other way. When the soldiers saw us, the tank was turned in our direction and they shot right above our heads."

The prosecution's third witness was 22-year-old Nabil Al-Issawi from Bethlehem, West Bank. The 22-year-old former student of the Ahliya University in Bethlehem was part of a peaceful student demonstration near the Azah Refugee Camp when he was shot in the stomach by an Israeli sniper with a Dum Dum bullet (a bullet which expand on impact). As he lay bleeding on the street, the Israeli soldiers refused to give him immediate aid instead took pictures of him and made fun of him.

The use of Dum Dum bullets during a military occupation is a war crime and Nabil confirmed that the usage of Dum Dum bullets were a norm in the Palestine- Isreali conflict.

He was informed by the doctors that the Dum Dum bullet once penetrated in his body had broken into 3 pieces going into 3 different directions: 2 went out of his body through the back and his rectum while the third stayed inside his bladder near the lower spine. He was hospitalised for almost 6 1/2 months and underwent four operations.

"As a result I missed my last semester in the school (namely, from January to Jun 2008). This affected my academic performance, and I scored poorly in the CGPA (Cumulative Grade Point Average). As a result, I was precluded from pursuing the university course of my choice, namely law," said Nabil who is currently pursing business studies.

"The course of my life has been altered dramatically. As of now, I have an abdominal scar for life and discomfort in sitting upright. I cannot swim competitively as I used to. Apart from this, my family members and I have been prohibited from going to Israel. Further, whenever I go through the Israeli military checkpoints, I am always harassed. I have been traumatised by the incident. Whenever I am about to go through numerous military checkpoints in West Bank, I am in the constant state of anxiety and fear," said Nabil who also informed the panel that he and his family is blacklisted from travelling to the nearby Jerusalem since he was shot.

He demands freedom in his country, stressing that it is the basic right of human beings not to be harassed by forces that have been placed there illegally.

The fourth witness who appeared before the Commission was 42-year-old Jawwad Musleh from Beit Sahour, near Bethlehem, West Bank. The tourism program coordinator gave testimony of the repeated incidents of incarceration that he had been subjected to since the age of 15 and gave the Commission a clearer picture of the socio-economic outlook of West Bank.

He testified that he was first arrested in 1985 when he was 15-years-old on the accusation that he was a member of the Palestine Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP).

He said, "I was first taken a place called Elmaskobeya Prison in West Jerusalem for investigation. Later I was taken to Damoun prison located in Haifa and finally I was taken to Ramallah prison in the West Bank."

He told the panel that the Israeli forces had used different kinds of torture on him. He revealed that they especially used mental and psychological torture and wanted him to admit that he was a member of the PFLP. He was held prisoner for 20 months.

He revealed, "The main charge against me was that I was a member of the Palestine Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). They wanted me to admit that I was a member of the PFLP. They tried to make me believe that they knew everything about me. I refused to confess. Then they began to beat me all over using clubs, sticks, even their feet and hands. The worst part was when there was no interrogation. They put me in confinement with my hands tied behind my back and a hood over my head. The hood was extremely smelly. I could barely breathe. I could not move. My hands were cuffed behind either to a chair or a piece of iron welded to a wall. I had no opportunity to go to the bathroom or to eat. When I did ask for water or to go to the bathroom, the soldiers would blackmail me. They asked me to confess, and only then would they give me water or take me to the bathroom. They prevented me from sleeping or eating or drinking."

"In the end I did confess. I was just a kid. There was a court hearing and there was a lawyer representing me. However, from what I know the decision is usually made by the Israeli intelligence."

Since then, he has been arrested a total of 8 times and each time he was tortured when he was incarcerated. During each interrogation, they wanted to know about his activities and his relationship with PFLP. There were various charges against him: rioting, participating in demonstrations, illegal activities, boycotting Israeli goods and inciting others to do the same, that he was security threat and a danger to the state of Israel.

He testified, "In the last 2 detentions in 1989 and 1990, I was arrested for "administrative reasons". This is a tool the Israelis use for people who are suspected of being active in political activities but for which there is no proof. In such detentions, a person is not entitled to a hearing or lawyers to object to or challenge the detention. You are sent straight to prison. You can only object to the period of detention. The period of detention is usually 6 months. Very often the sentence is confirmed for 6 months. Only in rare cases, it may be decreased to 4 or 3 months."

He added, "These kinds of arrests are common. Before the advent of the Palestinian authority in 1994, it occurred more frequently and more people were arrested. Now there are more than 5000 prisoners in Israeli prisons."

The focus of the interrogation was always on his relationship with political parties, and they would also try to find out more about other people, as they wanted to get the names of other people active in the Palestinian cause.

He related, "Twice, I was sent to Qeziot Military Camp located in the Negev desert south of Palestine. It looks exactly like a Nazi concentration camp with watchtowers and fences. It is located in the middle of the desert and completely isolated from the world. There is no radio, television, newspapers or even visits. I had no access to my family or lawyers for 6 months each time. It was very difficult to lawyers to visit us. I only met my lawyer once each time. The situation in this military camp is horrible because I was isolated, and I had very little food, and even what I had was of poor quality.

In Qeziot, we were all housed in tents. These tents were installed on sandy ground. Each section had 10 tents. There were fences all around. In one tent, there would be 20 to 22 persons. It was very crowded. It was always dusty. Dust and sand would get into our food. We didn't have books or anything to read and write. All we got was some food and a small mattress."

"I was also held 3 times at the Dahariyeh Military Camp located south of Hebron That is also a very horrible place. The rooms were small and very, very crowded. We used to sleep with our legs over each other. There was no space to move. The rooms also very dirty. We were forced to wear prison clothes that were dirty and smelly. There was no access to any bathroom or toilet. The prison guards would bring us a barrel. All of us had to ease ourselves in the barrel openly in the room. When the barrel was full, we were allowed to take it out and empty it and bring it back. Everything used to smell bad, our mattresses and our clothes. There was no natural light. We were not allowed to leave the room. In other prisons, prisoners are allowed 1 or 2 hours in open space. In Dahariyeh, prisoners cannot go out unless going to court or being transferred to other prisons. I was never visited by my family or lawyer."

"We were sometimes beaten by soldiers, although no interrogation was being carried out. They would count us 3 times a day. We would have to stand with our faces towards the wall. If anyone moves or talks, we were beaten hard with clubs. If anyone moved an inch or coughed or sneezed, all would be beaten."

In December 1992 while preparing for participation in a peaceful demonstration on the anniversary of PFLP, he was shot twice in the leg by the Israeli army. It damaged a sciatic nerve in his leg and caused complete impairment and paralysis of his foot.

"Being detained and spending time in prison hardened my resolve to struggle. I became more aware of the cause of the struggle, the history and later I continued being active in the cause. The Israeli forces think that they can kill our soul and patriotism by sending us to prison. However, it is there that our loyalty to our homeland is strengthened."

He added, "More and more Palestinian lands are being taken away. More and more Israeli colonies are being built on lands in the West Bank and Jerusalem. The situation is more complicated now. There are 700,000 Jewish settlers living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem. Jerusalem is being "Judaised" or "Israelised". The Israelis are taking more and more Palestinian lands and building more and more settlements around Jerusalem to make it more and more Jewish and to force Palestinians to leave Jerusalem."

On the subject of the Wall, he testifies, "When it came to building the apartheid wall, the Israelis said it is a security barrier. However, it is actually a strategy to confiscate and expropriate more land. It is not built on the border but inside the West Bank, and this has further reduced the landmass of the West Bank. So Jerusalem, which was part of the West Bank, has now been taken away and annexed to Israel by the construction of the wall."

He said, "Life for Palestinians in Jerusalem is very difficult. The strategy is to make Palestinians leave and to replace them with Jews to make a Jewish city. Now about 200,000 Palestinians live in and around East Jerusalem mainly, and this number is getting less and less by the day. Israel says that Jerusalem is its capital."

He further related, "Jerusalem is important for Muslims and Christians. For Muslims, the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque are very sacred places. The sacred places for Christians are the Sepulchre Church the Via Dolorosa. But both Christian and Muslim Palestinians cannot visit these places. Historically, Jerusalem has always been the centre and the heart of Palestine, economically, culturally, historically but now we are not allowed."

He said, "To move from one place to another in the West Bank, we have to pass through check points. At every checkpoint we have to show identification. There are at the moment 730 checkpoints and roadblocks in the West Bank. This excludes 'flying checkpoints', which the Israeli set up at any place at any time."

He related that the Israeli army control the checkpoints, some checkpoints they can pass with no problem, in some they have to submit ID, while others they have to wait for hours as they are very crowded. He revealed that a journey of one hour could take five hours. And when there is a demonstration, the checkpoints are simply shutdown.

On the issue of water supply, he revealed that Palestinians suffer from water shortages as the Israeli authorities control the control of water. "Water is supplied to the Israeli settlers at a cheaper price, and 5 times more in volume, compared to Palestinians. It is our land, but we pay more and get less water. The water supplied to Palestinians is inadequate for our daily use and causes us great hardship and suffering," he said.

He further revealed, "Many farmers depend on olive harvests. Palestine is full of olive trees. Many farmers' lands have been divided by the wall or the farms are located next to Israeli settlements or military camps. Farmers are therefore deprived of access to their lands. In some cases, they are only given permits to go to their lands during harvest in October. But because they are deprived of access throughout the year to fertilise, water and tend to their trees, the harvest is poor. In many instances, settlers have stolen olives from the farms. In other instances, settlers have burned the trees. Most of the Israeli settlements are located in higher land. Sewage water is discharged to the lower lands, where most of the Palestinians reside. This destroys the farms and trees, and damages the environment."

Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal

II – KUALA LUMPUR, 21 November 2012 – The Commission heard testimonies of witnesses continuing with the 15-year-old Mahmoud whose 21 family members were massacred by Israeli armed forces under Operation Cast Lead in 2009 where Israeli armed forces attacked Gaza. They also called five other witnesses to testify.

Today, the teenager told the Commission the ordeal his 10-year-old sister Amal endured during the attacks in 2009. Amal who was buried under dead bodies for four days is now visually impaired, her hearing is affected and she has 15 pieces of shrapnel's in her head that are medically too risky to remove.

Once again the teenager impressed the Commissioners and those who attended the hearing with his maturity and insights into the conflict.

A video animation called Samouni Street, which he was involved in the making off, was shown depicting Mahmoud's life in a peaceful farming community that was destroyed in 2009. It was a moving account of a child.

He asked, "Why were the young children killed? They are so young and cannot even hold a stone. Like my brother Ahmad. My cousins who were infants were also killed. I have heard that the soldier who kills more – and younger children – moves up higher in ranks."

He said, "What did the children do to deserve to die this way? What did the women do to become widows and what did the old people do to see all this? Nobody is defending us. It is like we are nothing. We do not have a normal happy life like other children. Where is the human right of the child?"

Even in the recent attacks, some of his neighbours have been killed. He fears for his family and relatives.

Dr. Walid Elkhatib, another witness, who comes from Bethlehem District, West Bank is a qualified medical doctor, with a Masters in Public Health, and Higher Diploma in Health Management, testified on the effects of Israeli occupation on Palestinians, especially children.

He testified, "From 1988 until 1996, I worked as a general practitioner. I worked at an emergency clinic during the 1st intifada. I saw many patients who were brought in with different kinds of injuries as a result of Israeli violence – people with gun shot wounds, who had been exposed to tear gas and people who were physically abused by Israeli soldiers."

"Today, I am in charge of child health and protection, social health and Palestinian child law and rights," said the 52-year-old doctor who developed hearing problems due to constant exposure to explosions and has himself come close to being killed several times by the Israeli soldiers.

"I looked at particularly Palestinian children health, not only from the physical point of view but how much Israeli occupation has affected Palestinian children health beyond physical health. It is not merely absence of disease and disability. What I perceived as equally important was emotional, social, mental and environmental health, nutrition and behaviour."

He said, "According to a survey conducted in Palestine in 2010 in cooperation with the World Health Organisation, which I personally oversaw, 24% of schoolchildren in Palestine have suicidal tendencies."

He further added, "There is also increased incidents of disability among Palestinians. Among 20% of injured people have become disabled during the 2nd uprising (Intifada). The most recent report from Palestinian Ministry of Health and Ministry of Social Affairs (2011) showed that 7% of Palestinian children are disabled, some because of the intifada. Generally the number is 1-2% higher in Palestine because of the violence."

He said, "From 2001-2011, there were 2282 cases of disability (93.9% male, 6.1% female). Most of the men were involved in the intifada. 65.6% of them suffered disability as a result of live ammunition. Others were affected by shrapnel, rubber bullet, explosions."

"As a result of the greater number of disabilities, it means that these persons also have less opportunities for work and end up in poverty. There is greater pressure on the government to support these persons, by way of provision of social services, health services, education etc."

"Poverty is rife in the West Bank and Gaza. It increased from an average of 20% prior to the intifada to up to 51% during the intifada. Conditions of poverty also mean poor nutrition. We found that during the Intifada, children's growth was stunted because they did not have enough protein. There are many cases of children with low weight. During the 2nd intifada, the rate of children with low weight (less than 5 years old) increased from 2.5% to 3.2%, the rate of low height increased from 7.5% to 7.9%, and wasting (severe loss of weight) increased from 1.4% to 1.7%."

"According to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), there was a 40% increase of prematurity and miscarriages in pregnant women during the 2nd intifada. Israeli soldiers have also violated international law by attacking hospitals and ambulances with shelling and shooting on the excuse that wanted people or terrorists are in the hospital. Currently 53% of the Palestinian population is below 18 years old."

He said, "Israeli forces attack hospitals and ambulances on the pretext that there are Palestinian fighters hiding there. Which is not true. I have never seen such a situation. It is my opinion that the Israeli forces allege such incidents but do so to merely justify their inhuman actions of attacking hospitals."

It is a slow and certain destruction of a society mentally, physically and socially.

He said, "Over the years, the situation in the West Bank and Gaza has become worse. The Israeli authorities have increased in strength. We can only estimate that it will get worse in the future. The Palestinians face a lot of challenges. We are being threatened all the time by the US and Israel – they threaten to cease the transfer of taxes, to strengthen the checkpoints, to stop aid, to completely stop entry to Jerusalem."

He continued, "Before the 2nd intifada, I believed that Israel was looking for peace with Palestinians. But now I do not believe it. Israel does not believe Palestinian territory belongs to Palestinians. They believe that it is historically Israeli and they are taking it back. They threaten to increase settlements in Palestinian territories if Palestine continues to try and gain recognition as a state from the United Nations (without membership). Israeli actions amount to the extermination of a whole state. Israel believes that eventually Palestinians will leave their lands beyond the walls. Israeli strategy is to deprive the Palestinians of their basic needs to make them leave. The Palestinians are badly in need of support services Otherwise they will have no choice but to leave."

The prosecution subsequent witness was 54-years-old Chahira Abouardini, a mother of three who is a Palestinian refugee (political refugee) living in Camp Shatila, Beirut. She told the Commission about the events that took place at Camp Shatila, Beirut in the month of September 1982, in the now infamous Sabra & Shatila massacre.

She testified, "On 14 September 1982, the Lebanese President Bachir Gemayel was assassinated. After that incident, there were a lot of aircraft flying around Beirut. My husband told me that the situation may get worse, and to prepare the children so that we could leave. On 16 September we went to my father's brick house on Sabra Street. There were other family members as well – my father, my sister (17 years old), my brother (24 years old) and his pregnant wife and 2 children, and my cousin and his wife and 2 children."

Chahira who broke down while giving testimony said, "In the evening beginning from about 5pm, flares were thrown to light up the area. This went on throughout the night. The camp was full of light throughout the night. We did not know what was happening outside. We heard shooting and screaming outside. At about dusk, my sister ran out into the street to see what was happening. She was shot dead by armed militia. When my sister was shot, she shouted for my father. My father came out of the house to see what had happened to my sister. He was also shot and killed. Their bodies were left on the street. Later I found out that those who shot my sister and father were Lebanese Phalangist militia."

In the early hours of the morning, about 16-17 armed soldiers entered her home and shot her husband, brother and cousin dead in front of her and children. She related that militia entered homes and shot at everyone including children and animals.

She said, "Along the way to the stadium, I saw my cousin's daughter who was pregnant lying dead. The murderers had opened her body and taken out her baby and put the baby on her. The child was dead as well. She was lying on the street."

"Along the street there were a lot of dead bodies. Hundreds of bodies were strewn all over. We climbed a hill to the stadium. At the nearest houses I could see bodies of children. Between the houses, which had been half destroyed, there were bodies of men, and also women and children and animals."

The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission hearing on Palestine. The world must do more to help Palestinians. Pic by Chan Wai YewShe testified, "In 36 hours, up to 3500 to 5,000 people from Shatila and Sabra had been massacred, There are also people unaccounted for who had disappeared. The Phalangist militia worked together with the Israelis. They were known to be puppets for Israeli forces. Israelis used them to go into our houses, because these soldiers knew the place, and could speak Lebanese. The Israelis were afraid to go in themselves."

She concluded, "What I want is justice to be done and that those who killed my family members and all the people at Shatila and Sabra to be punished for their crimes."

The prosecution's next witness was Taghreed Nimat from Nablus, West Bank. Due to Taghreed's father's imprisonment for singing nationalistic Palestinian songs, the Israeli forces often targeted her, accusing her for promoting hatred against the Israeli government. In 2004, the Israeli soldiers attacked the Dr Sayed Kamal Mental Hospital in Bethlehem where she was staying and working as a psychologist. The 47-year-old Palestinian's experiences during the hospital attack caused her to suffer a breakdown causing her to take ASVL sedatives twice and other medication for five months.

She also related how she was often harassed unnecessarily by the Israeli military soldiers whatever she went through checkpoints. They soldiers would detain her at these checkpoints for one or two hours or several hours before allowing her through or sometimes refusing entry.

The prosecution also called Anne Sunde, a 66-year-old Norwegian who is residing in Belgium. She was working as a volunteer social worker for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in Beirut in the Sabra and Shatila Camps.

She related, "On 4 June 1982, I visited my friend at Fakhani. While we are chatting in the building, which housed the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) offices, we heard loud noises of planes flying over. We rushed to the shelter in the basement of the building. Then we heard bombing nearby our building. It was loud. The building shook and I was expecting to die under it. It was my first experience of direct violence. One becomes aware what life is. The bombing seemed eternity."

She said, "After a few days the PRCS set up a hospital in La Houd School, Hamra. Since nobody among the volunteers wanted to do cleaning (janitor), I volunteered. I did this together with Kurdish refugees."

She said, "Finally I decided to go back to Belgium on 15 September 1982 via Damascus. However, since it was the morning after Bachir Gemayel's (the then President-elect) death, there were no taxis to take me to Damascus. Great nervousness was felt in town. I returned to the PRCS headquarter in Hamra where most of the foreigners were located."

She then proceeded to relate her harrowing experiences of the killings at the Sabra and Shatila Camps. She further related that when she went to the Shatila Camp she saw many dead bodies of adults and children, both male and female, in strange positions. I also saw dead animals. The bodies were already decomposing and bloated in the summer heat. The smell, she said, was unbearable and there were flies all over.

She added, "It was a horrible scene and they were digging mass graves to bury the dead."

The prosecution next called the 66-year-old Italian expert witness Paola Manduca, a retired Professor at University of Genoa, Italy who is an expert Geneticist. In 2011, she conducted and coordinated two research projects relating to the impact of weapons on reproductive health arising from the attacks in Gaza, especially to children. She also personally spent about more then a year from December 2010 to April 2012 in Gaza, conducting research in Pediatric and maternity hospitals.

She said, "The outcome of our research points to the degradation of the reproductive health and increase in major structural birth defects, following and correlated to the military attacks and possibly to the input of toxic, carcinogen and teratogen (development interfering) agents delivered by weaponry in the environment and in the wounds of victims, and of their assumption by the inhabitants."

She related, "We showed by analytical chemistry methods that in Gaza teratogen and carcinogen metals are found in wounds, in craters since 2006 attacks and in White Phosphorus ammunitions in 2009 and children hair one year after the 2008/09 attacks."

She said, "Our study of birth defects in 0 to 2 year old children registered in 5 paediatric hospitals in Gaza Strip showed that there is a 1.8 fold higher frequency of birth defects in the first 6 months of year 2010, compared to the same period in 2006."

She testified that there was an increase in birth defects in Gaza starting in 2005-06. "It is our view that such sudden increases in birth defects are usually associated to significant and sudden environmental changes."

She confirmed that the start of the increases is correlated in their timing to the military attacks, after the Israeli armed forces left Gaza, and the first news from medical personnel on "unprecedented" wounds, meaning new kinds of wounds from weapons.

She said, "We found that 66% of Gaza parents with a birth defect child were exposed to bombing or /and White Phosphorus shelling during Operation Cast Lead in 2008/09."

She continued, "Couples with birth defect children reported exposure to White Phosphorus 15 fold more often than couples with normal child."

She added, "Our studies have presented proof of a rise in birth defects in Gaza, increasing after the attacks in 2006 and continuing increase up to 2011. It showed correlation of birth defect occurrence with exposure to White Phosphorus shelling. In also showed contamination of the soil by teratogen and carcinogen metals. It showed accumulation of these teratogen and carcinogen metals in children' hair. She also presented proof that teratogen and carcinogen metals are delivered by weapons into the flesh of victims."

She concluded that there is long-term effect on reproductive health associated to metal contamination by exposure to weaponry during war and by war remnants.

KUALA LUMPUR, 21 November 2012 – The Commission heard testimonies of witnesses continuing with the 15-year-old Mahmoud whose 21 family members were massacred by Israeli armed forces under Operation Cast Lead in 2009 where Israeli armed forces attacked Gaza. They also called five other witnesses to testify.

Today, the teenager told the Commission the ordeal his 10-year-old sister Amal endured during the attacks in 2009. Amal who was buried under dead bodies for four days is now visually impaired, her hearing is affected and she has 15 pieces of shrapnel's in her head that are medically too risky to remove.

Once again the teenager impressed the Commissioners and those who attended the hearing with his maturity and insights into the conflict.

A video animation called Samouni Street, which he was involved in the making off, was shown depicting Mahmoud's life in a peaceful farming community that was destroyed in 2009. It was a moving account of a child.

He asked, "Why were the young children killed? They are so young and cannot even hold a stone. Like my brother Ahmad. My cousins who were infants were also killed. I have heard that the soldier who kills more – and younger children – moves up higher in ranks."

He said, "What did the children do to deserve to die this way? What did the women do to become widows and what did the old people do to see all this? Nobody is defending us. It is like we are nothing. We do not have a normal happy life like other children. Where is the human right of the child?"

Even in the recent attacks, some of his neighbours have been killed. He fears for his family and relatives.

Dr. Walid Elkhatib, another witness, who comes from Bethlehem District, West Bank is a qualified medical doctor, with a Masters in Public Health, and Higher Diploma in Health Management, testified on the effects of Israeli occupation on Palestinians, especially children.

He testified, "From 1988 until 1996, I worked as a general practitioner. I worked at an emergency clinic during the 1st intifada. I saw many patients who were brought in with different kinds of injuries as a result of Israeli violence – people with gun shot wounds, who had been exposed to tear gas and people who were physically abused by Israeli soldiers."

"Today, I am in charge of child health and protection, social health and Palestinian child law and rights," said the 52-year-old doctor who developed hearing problems due to constant exposure to explosions and has himself come close to being killed several times by the Israeli soldiers.

"I looked at particularly Palestinian children health, not only from the physical point of view but how much Israeli occupation has affected Palestinian children health beyond physical health. It is not merely absence of disease and disability. What I perceived as equally important was emotional, social, mental and environmental health, nutrition and behaviour."

He said, "According to a survey conducted in Palestine in 2010 in cooperation with the World Health Organisation, which I personally oversaw, 24% of schoolchildren in Palestine have suicidal tendencies."

He further added, "There is also increased incidents of disability among Palestinians. Among 20% of injured people have become disabled during the 2nd uprising (Intifada). The most recent report from Palestinian Ministry of Health and Ministry of Social Affairs (2011) showed that 7% of Palestinian children are disabled, some because of the intifada. Generally the number is 1-2% higher in Palestine because of the violence."

He said, "From 2001-2011, there were 2282 cases of disability (93.9% male, 6.1% female). Most of the men were involved in the intifada. 65.6% of them suffered disability as a result of live ammunition. Others were affected by shrapnel, rubber bullet, explosions."

"As a result of the greater number of disabilities, it means that these persons also have less opportunities for work and end up in poverty. There is greater pressure on the government to support these persons, by way of provision of social services, health services, education etc."

"Poverty is rife in the West Bank and Gaza. It increased from an average of 20% prior to the intifada to up to 51% during the intifada. Conditions of poverty also mean poor nutrition. We found that during the Intifada, children's growth was stunted because they did not have enough protein. There are many cases of children with low weight. During the 2nd intifada, the rate of children with low weight (less than 5 years old) increased from 2.5% to 3.2%, the rate of low height increased from 7.5% to 7.9%, and wasting (severe loss of weight) increased from 1.4% to 1.7%."

"According to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), there was a 40% increase of prematurity and miscarriages in pregnant women during the 2nd intifada. Israeli soldiers have also violated international law by attacking hospitals and ambulances with shelling and shooting on the excuse that wanted people or terrorists are in the hospital. Currently 53% of the Palestinian population is below 18 years old."

He said, "Israeli forces attack hospitals and ambulances on the pretext that there are Palestinian fighters hiding there. Which is not true. I have never seen such a situation. It is my opinion that the Israeli forces allege such incidents but do so to merely justify their inhuman actions of attacking hospitals."

It is a slow and certain destruction of a society mentally, physically and socially.

He said, "Over the years, the situation in the West Bank and Gaza has become worse. The Israeli authorities have increased in strength. We can only estimate that it will get worse in the future. The Palestinians face a lot of challenges. We are being threatened all the time by the US and Israel – they threaten to cease the transfer of taxes, to strengthen the checkpoints, to stop aid, to completely stop entry to Jerusalem."

He continued, "Before the 2nd intifada, I believed that Israel was looking for peace with Palestinians. But now I do not believe it. Israel does not believe Palestinian territory belongs to Palestinians. They believe that it is historically Israeli and they are taking it back. They threaten to increase settlements in Palestinian territories if Palestine continues to try and gain recognition as a state from the United Nations (without membership). Israeli actions amount to the extermination of a whole state. Israel believes that eventually Palestinians will leave their lands beyond the walls. Israeli strategy is to deprive the Palestinians of their basic needs to make them leave. The Palestinians are badly in need of support services Otherwise they will have no choice but to leave."

The prosecution subsequent witness was 54-years-old Chahira Abouardini, a mother of three who is a Palestinian refugee (political refugee) living in Camp Shatila, Beirut. She told the Commission about the events that took place at Camp Shatila, Beirut in the month of September 1982, in the now infamous Sabra & Shatila massacre.

She testified, "On 14 September1982, the Lebanese President Bachir Gemayel was assassinated. After that incident, there were a lot of aircraft flying around Beirut. My husband told me that the situation may get worse, and to prepare the children so that we could leave. On 16 September we went to my father's brick house on Sabra Street. There were other family members as well – my father, my sister (17 years old), my brother (24 years old) and his pregnant wife and 2 children, and my cousin and his wife and 2 children."

Chahira who broke down while giving testimony said, "In the evening beginning from about 5pm, flares were thrown to light up the area. This went on throughout the night. The camp was full of light throughout the night. We did not know what was happening outside. We heard shooting and screaming outside. At about dusk, my sister ran out into the street to see what was happening. She was shot dead by armed militia. When my sister was shot, she shouted for my father. My father came out of the house to see what had happened to my sister. He was also shot and killed. Their bodies were left on the street. Later I found out that those who shot my sister and father were Lebanese Phalangist militia."
In the early hours of the morning, about 16-17 armed soldiers entered her home and shot her husband, brother and cousin dead in front of her and children. She related that militia entered homes and shot at everyone including children and animals.

She said, "Along the way to the stadium, I saw my cousin's daughter who was pregnant lying dead. The murderers had opened her body and taken out her baby and put the baby on her. The child was dead as well. She was lying on the street."

"Along the street there were a lot of dead bodies. Hundreds of bodies were strewn all over. We climbed a hill to the stadium. At the nearest houses I could see bodies of children. Between the houses, which had been half destroyed, there were bodies of men, and also women and children and animals."

She testified, "In 36 hours, up to 3500 to 5,000 people from Shatila and Sabra had been massacred, There are also people unaccounted for who had disappeared. The Phalangist militia worked together with the Israelis. They were known to be puppets for Israeli forces. Israelis used them to go into our houses, because these soldiers knew the place, and could speak Lebanese. The Israelis were afraid to go in themselves."
She concluded, "What I want is justice to be done and that those who killed my family members and all the people at Shatila and Sabra to be punished for their crimes."

The prosecution's next witness was Taghreed Nimat from Nablus, West Bank. Due to Taghreed's father's imprisonment for singing nationalistic Palestinian songs, the Israeli forces often targeted her, accusing her for promoting hatred against the Israeli government. In 2004, the Israeli soldiers attacked the Dr Sayed Kamal Mental Hospital in Bethlehem where she was staying and working as a psychologist. The 47-year-old Palestinian's experiences during the hospital attack caused her to suffer a breakdown causing her to take ASVL sedatives twice and other medication for five months.

She also related how she was often harassed unnecessarily by the Israeli military soldiers whatever she went through checkpoints. They soldiers would detain her at these checkpoints for one or two hours or several hours before allowing her through or sometimes refusing entry.
The prosecution also called Anne Sunde, a 66-year-old Norwegian who is residing in Belgium. She was working as a volunteer social worker for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in Beirut in the Sabra and Shatila Camps.

She related, "On 4 June 1982, I visited my friend at Fakhani. While we are chatting in the building, which housed the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) offices, we heard loud noises of planes flying over. We rushed to the shelter in the basement of the building. Then we heard bombing nearby our building. It was loud. The building shook and I was expecting to die under it. It was my first experience of direct violence. One becomes aware what life is. The bombing seemed eternity."

She said, "After a few days the PRCS set up a hospital in La Houd School, Hamra. Since nobody among the volunteers wanted to do cleaning (janitor), I volunteered. I did this together with Kurdish refugees."

She said, "Finally I decided to go back to Belgium on 15 September 1982 via Damascus. However, since it was the morning after Bachir Gemayel's (the then President-elect) death, there were no taxis to take me to Damascus. Great nervousness was felt in town. I returned to the PRCS headquarter in Hamra where most of the foreigners were located."

She then proceeded to relate her harrowing experiences of the killings at the Sabra and Shatila Camps. She further related that when she went to the Shatila Camp she saw many dead bodies of adults and children, both male and female, in strange positions. I also saw dead animals. The bodies were already decomposing and bloated in the summer heat. The smell, she said, was unbearable and there were flies all over.
She added, "It was a horrible scene and they were digging mass graves to bury the dead."

The prosecution next called the 66-year-old Italian expert witness Paola Manduca, a retired Professor at University of Genoa, Italy who is an expert Geneticist. In 2011, she conducted and coordinated two research projects relating to the impact of weapons on reproductive health arising from the attacks in Gaza, especially to children. She also personally spent about more then a year from December 2010 to April 2012 in Gaza, conducting research in Pediatric and maternity hospitals.

She said, "The outcome of our research points to the degradation of the reproductive health and increase in major structural birth defects, following and correlated to the military attacks and possibly to the input of toxic, carcinogen and teratogen (development interfering) agents delivered by weaponry in the environment and in the wounds of victims, and of their assumption by the inhabitants."

She related, "We showed by analytical chemistry methods that in Gaza teratogen and carcinogen metals are found in wounds, in craters since 2006 attacks and in White Phosphorus ammunitions in 2009 and children hair one year after the 2008/09 attacks."

She said, "Our study of birth defects in 0 to 2 year old children registered in 5 paediatric hospitals in Gaza Strip showed that there is a 1.8 fold higher frequency of birth defects in the first 6 months of year 2010, compared to the same period in 2006."

She testified that there was an increase in birth defects in Gaza starting in 2005-06. "It is our view that such sudden increases in birth defects are usually associated to significant and sudden environmental changes."

She confirmed that the start of the increases is correlated in their timing to the military attacks, after the Israeli armed forces left Gaza, and the first news from medical personnel on "unprecedented" wounds, meaning new kinds of wounds from weapons.

She said, "We found that 66% of Gaza parents with a birth defect child were exposed to bombing or /and White Phosphorus shelling during Operation Cast Lead in 2008/09."

She continued, "Couples with birth defect children reported exposure to White Phosphorus 15 fold more often than couples with normal child."
She added, "Our studies have presented proof of a rise in birth defects in Gaza, increasing after the attacks in 2006 and continuing increase up to 2011. It showed correlation of birth defect occurrence with exposure to White Phosphorus shelling. In also showed contamination of the soil by teratogen and carcinogen metals. It showed accumulation of these teratogen and carcinogen metals in children' hair. She also presented proof that teratogen and carcinogen metals are delivered by weapons into the flesh of victims."

She concluded that there is long-term effect on reproductive health associated to metal contamination by exposure to weaponry during war and by war remnants.

The Prosecution in its submission urged the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC) to make the necessary recommendations on the indictment and persons to be charged to the KLWC Tribunal. They recommended that the state of Israel be indicted for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide from the evidence tendered.

International commissions over the years have concluded that Israel had committed genocide and war crimes. After Operation Cast Lead the UN Goldstone Report stated that Israel committed war crimes in the destruction of civilian infrastructure and in the killing of civilians.

The UN Security Council resolution 521 (1982) condemned the criminal massacre of Palestinian civilians in Sabra and Shatila. The UN General Assembly resolution (ES-7/9 24 September 1982) resolved that the massacre was an act of genocide. The UN MacBride Commission formed after the Sabra and Shatila massacre concluded that Israel had committed genocide and war crimes.

The UN General Assembly on 16 December 1982 passed a resolution reaffirming the applicability of the Geneva Convention to the protection of civilians in the occupied Palestinian and Arab territories including Jerusalem. It noted the failure of Israel to comply with numerous resolutions. It noted also that the actions and record establish conclusively that it is not a peace loving member state and has not carried out its obligations under the Charter of the United Nations.

And yet the international community has failed to take any action against Israel.

Genocide, under the 1948 Genocide Convention is the deliberate infliction of conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of a people in whole or in part. The evidence adduced show that the state of Israel has been engaged in acts of genocide against the Palestinian people. Genocide includes both physical and mental harm caused by the Israeli occupation as well as the bombing and killing of civilians that is going on even now in Gaza.

Gaza and West Bank are under military occupation of Israel. The Fourth Geneva Convention provides protection for people under a military occupation. Israel has breached practically all the articles of the Geneva Convention.

Israel's contention that it is not in occupation of Gaza and West Bank once it withdrew its troops. The reality is Israel is in occupation since the test is belligerent control –Israel is in control. It has blockaded Gaza from the sea and surrounded it by a wall on the land. The Egyptian border is sealed with Gaza. Israel exercises control with the blockade of Gaza, the attack and killing of civilians, the denial of essential supplies, constant killing of civilians. Gaza is under siege.

The World Court in its Advisory Opinion in 'the wall case' in July 2004, participated by the Israeli and Palestinians, rejected all of Israel's arguments that they are not an occupying force. The opinion of the World Court was that the construction of the wall in Occupied Palestinian Territory is contrary to international law.

Israel is stealing Palestinian water and diverting it to Israel and its settlers while Palestinians are being deprived of water. Hundreds of checkpoints have been established by Israel across West Bank and Gaza limiting the access of Palestinians travelling from town to town. With the wall built by Israel the Palestinians are almost in a 'prison'.

Wide spread systematic torture of Palestinians as shown in evidence before the Commission have in numerous cases been documented extensively over the years by human rights organisations including Amnesty International that clearly show that Israel has committed war crimes.

Based on evidence and records, the Sabra and Shatila massacre is a clear case of genocide and war crimes. The Israeli forces had played a key role in working with the Phalangist militia in perpetrating this crime. The Palestinian fighters had withdrawn to Tunisia and the Palestinian civilians at the camps were assured by the US that they would be protected under the Habib Agreement. The International forces consisting of Italian, French and US forces withdrew a day before the massacre started and reappeared after that in Beirut.

Crimes against humanity come from the Nuremberg trials drafted by the US to deal with the Nazis prosecution of Jews which include murder, torture, imprisonment, rape, persecution of a specific identifiable group based on racial, national, ethnic basis. Interestingly, the Israeli war crimes are the same with the only difference being the scale but it is an on going process of destruction of the Palestinian people.

The International Criminal Court (ICC) had refused to accept the Palestine complaint on war crimes against Israel. Palestinians have tried to obtain justice that has been continuously denied to them. The Palestinian complainants now turn to the KLWCC for assistance in obtaining justice.

The Commission upon hearing the evidence and the prosecution submissions announced that as per the charter of the KLWCC they would be deliberate on the facts and the law and prepare a report and its recommendations at a later date.

The 5-panel Commissioners' is headed by Musa Ismail, a former Magistrate, who is currently a practicing lawyer. The other Commissioners include lecturer and author Prof Hans-Christof von Sponeck, who was also a former UN Assistant Secretary General responsible for humanitarian operations in Iraq, Nobel peace prize nominee Denis J. Halliday, who worked for the UN for 34 years and was head of the UN Humanitarian Programme in Iraq, Dr Zulaiha Ismail, former Dean of the Centre for Graduate Studies Universiti Teknologi MARA (UiTM) and currently actively involved with NGOs specifically on the plight of the Palestinians and Michel Chossudovsky, professor of economics emeritus, University of Ottawa and Director, Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG).

The prosecution team for the commission hearing is lead by Prof Gurdial Singh Nijar, prominent law professor and author of several law publications. He is assisted by Prof Francis Boyle, Avtaran Singh and Gan Pei Fern.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:47 PM

Arabs Fly Nazi Flag near Hevron
Residents of Gush Etzion astounded to see Nazi flag flying near the mosque of Beit Omar.

By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 5/20/2013, 2:20 PM

Hundreds of residents of Gush Etzion, south of Jerusalem, were astounded Monday morning to see an oversized Nazi flag flying next to a mosque in the Arab town of Beit Omar.

The residents notified the IDF.

A resident, Uri Arnon, told the Tazpit News Agency: "I felt we were going back 75 years, losing our hold on the land. The Arabs no longer feel the need to hide their murderous tendencies, announcing out loud that they wish to annihilate us."

An IDF spokesman said that the flag was hung on an electrical line, and that they were waiting to professionals to come and remove it.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168146#.UZpvVb91CS2


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:32 PM

Anything you can do....
Still waiting for you to substantiate your claim about what the Sin Beth men said Keith
At no time did they show any interest nor comment on the legality of the legality of their actions - their main concern for the devestating damage they had wrought on the State of Israel.
In fairness. if they had any personal misgivings about them they were humanitarian ones.   
Another made up fact methinks.
Jim Carroll
http://www.peterloud.co.uk/palestine/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-war-crimes-against-palestine-witness-testimonies/5312862
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-should-never-forget-its-mideast-atrocities-1.424506
http://www.myiwc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1445
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/5-ways-america-enables-israels-atrocities
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPoJ4pYVlb4dJEp92zohLjucInkLVLyKg
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/09/take-a-look-at-this-list-of-settler-initiated-crimes-against-palestinians-in-the-last-few-weeks.h
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&gmid=23905
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/israeli-war-criminal-list-goes-global/
http://rtsf.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/breaking-silence-on-israeli-war-crimes/
http://nogw.com/israeliatrocities.html
http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=2740
http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis7.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:46 PM

Jim, with young writers like Josh Mintz, there may be another glimmer of hope that Israel can correct its military behavior. Uri Avnery is another peace activist that has a real insight
into the politics of the Israeli government. Also, consider Naomi Klein and Norman Finkelstein and hear what they have to say.

When dealing on this issue, the only hope is support the Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanction movement and make Netanyahu and his followers listen hard.

BDS is not an Israel hate group but is sincerely concerned about the road Zionism has traveled
regarding the oppression of Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:38 PM

The six never questioned the guilt of those targeted.
Israeli Intelligence is renowned for good reason.
That means that it was perfectly legal to target them at home.
They may be right that it did not further the cause of Israel's security, but it was not terrorism.
It was in response to terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:18 AM

"The six never questioned the guilt of those targeted."
You haven't seen the film, you refuse to give us a source for your claims - how the **** do you know what the six questioned?
VERIFY YOUR CLAIMS OR THEY ARE NO MORE THAN INVENTIONS ON YOUR PART
"Israeli Intelligence is renowned for good reason."
Yes, indeed it is - for incursions into other countries to carry out assassinations, for murders of its opponents - there have even been valid claims that they carried out the killings that are being used as an excuse to close the tunnels - they are the security forces of a recognised terrorist state which has been identified as deliberately breaching nearly 100 United Nations regulations.
Whether it is legal to target suspected (that is what they are) terrorists at home is debatable - dropping a bomb on the homes of dozens of non-combatant families in order to do so is not - that is a crime against humanity and a war crime.
Stringsinger:
The overall message that came from the interviews with the security men is that today's Government in Israel has now totally opted for the military solution in Israel.
They have joined up with the ultra-right in order to stay in power, any decision in favour of Palestine taken from outside Israel (eg by the UN) is followed by announcements of more settlements, independent surveys have verified claims that the State is now divided on apartheid lines, the authorities have taken it upon themselves to move whole communities as if they were chess pieces in order to divide the country on racist lines, the incursions have become more and more brutal.....
The claim by the most hard-line of the security men that the behaviour of the Israeli regime is comparable to that of the Nazis, as chilling as that is, is as near to a reality as it gets.
I share your hope - I wish I shared your optimism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:18 AM

""Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd murder missile at its people.
It would help if you named the target, but he must have been deeply involved in the missile programme.
As Red Cross states, that makes him a combatant and a legitimate target.

If he surrounds himself with human sandbags, none but he is responsible for the harm he brings to them.
""

There, in black and white, is the self exposure of a racist bigot.

Palestinians fire ""murder rockets"" (ignoring the fact that the vast majority of said rockets make craters in fields and frighten cows).

Israelis carry out justified defensive actions which take out a terrorist and a number of ""human sandbags"".

That term for Palestinian civilians (men, women and children) is without doubt the most disgraceful comment I have ever seen on Mudcat (and I've been a membe since the Martin Gibson days).

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:26 AM

""People who carry out atrocities such as these are war criminals and those who support and justify them are sick bastards.""

All vey well BB, as long as you apply it to both sides!

WE DO, and YOU DON'T!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:56 AM

""500 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians from September 29, 2000 to March 31, 2012 in Israel, and another 254 Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.""

Breakdown of deaths 2000 to 2013

Both sides acting in a reprehensible fashion, but these figures (please note that they chose the most conservative figures) do not lend support to the belief that Israel forces pay more than lip service to the minimising of so called ""collateral damage (Keith's "human sandbags").

The number of children killed is particularly reprhensible.

Worth noting the figures for IDF soldiers deceased in 2005.

30 suicide, 14 sickness, 26 accident and just 6 in what are called "terror incidents".

Since 1992, 459 Israeli soldiers have committed suicide.

Bad conscience maybe?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:52 AM

Jim,I have read enough about the film so that there will be no surprise revelations for me when I see it.
They do not criticise the intelligence information, just the use of it.
Can you verify your claim to the contrary?
Whether it is legal to target suspected (that is what they are) terrorists at home is debatable
No it is not. See ICRC statement.
dropping a bomb on the homes of dozens of non-combatant families in order to do so is not
Agree.
IDF do not do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:01 AM

Don,
Palestinians fire ""murder rockets"" (ignoring the fact that the vast majority of said rockets make craters in fields and frighten cows).
They frighten people and children too.
The ball bearings are not added to frighten cows but to tear through flesh.To murder.

Sandbags are what proper soldiers use for cover.
Hamas fighters use civilians.
That is what should disgust you Don, not me describing it.


WE DO, and YOU DON'T!

Yes we do, but the "evidence" for Israeli atrocities is just not there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:13 AM

The evidence is there alright! You just ignore it or call all the witnesses even Shin Bet officers who knw much more than you about it liars and antisemites.

You then present the Israeli government's denial as though that were conclusive proof, and expect us to accept trhat you do this in honesty and good faith?

YOU ARE A SICK JOKE!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 08:25 AM

"Jim,I have read enough about the film so that there will be no surprise revelations for me when I see it."
Simple solution - produce the links to the sources you claim to have read so we know you are not making it up - personally I don't believe you've read anything, but are attempting to junk the information that the film carries - easily proven by linked quotes though.
"They do not criticise the intelligence information, just the use of it."
Prove what - show me the claim I have made and I'll verify it as I have verified everything else.
"Hamas fighters use civilians."
That has been accused of happening but not verified - you have just been given three examples with links of where the Israelis have done just that, using children and whole families in some cases(20 May 13 - 08:06 AM) and have refused to comment on it.
" but the "evidence" for Israeli atrocities is just not there."
Outrageously not true - you've just been given fourteen links to Israeli atrocities (20 May 13 - 03:32 PM) and a very long article from the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission containing vivid accounts of Israeli atrocities.
You are welcome to dispute all these but it is simply lying to claim that evidence "is just not there"
In return - you have not produced any evidence to back up your denials and you consistently refuse to provide links to your claims.
Making such claims makes you a liar, lying about something that is respectively 9 and 11 postings away mkes you an incredibly stupid liar.
Produce links for your claim about the film and explain your lying about there being no evidence of Israeli atrocities.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 13 - 09:47 AM

What democracy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:36 AM

Don,
call all the witnesses even Shin Bet officers who knw much more than you about it liars and antisemites.
No, I never have.

You then present the Israeli government's denial as though that were conclusive proof,
Never done that either. I have only ever put their side of the story just for the sake of balance. No reasonable person could object to that.

Jim, I have posted some quotes from reviews already.
It would be easy to Google up some more.
If the six admitted IDF Int. was shite and the wrong people were being hit, that would be the whole story and it would be huge.
Is that what you are claiming the film says Jim?

There are many accusations against Israel by its enemies, but all are denied and the evidence is not there.
Re. Kuala Lumpar thing, the former United Nations Special Rappporteur on the Independence of Judges and Lawyers, Param Cumaraswamy, has suggested the tribunal is a private enterprise with no legal basis and questions its legitimacy.[12] The tribunal does not have a UN mandate or recognition, no power to order arrests or impose sentences, and it is unclear that its verdicts have any but symbolic significance.[13]


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:47 AM

What does Israel's Arab minority really think?

The Israel Democracy Institute's 'Israeli Democracy Index 2012' – an annual comprehensive survey of the mood of Israeli society, widely considered one of the most authoritative in the field – provides some fascinating data about attitudes among Arab-Israelis regarding Israeli democracy and the state itself. The findings (not significantly different to previous years) certainly reflect a critical attitude towards the Israeli reality and government policies. But they also reflect something else: a huge gap between the responses of Arab-Israelis and the typical discourse of the Arab elite in the country; between opinion at the base and rhetoric amongst the political leadership of this community.

Findings


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:55 AM

From the survey cited above:

"Israeli democracy. In relation to Israeli democracy, 44 per cent of Arab respondents say Israel's democracy is at the 'appropriate level', 7.8 per cent say Israel is 'too democratic', 37.2 per cent said it is 'not democratic enough' and only 11 per cent that it is 'not democratic enough by far'. The last answer corresponds to what is routinely said by virtually the entire Arab leadership. In fact, the 'vision documents' of the Arab leadership claim that Israel is not a democracy at all. That is not the opinion of the Arab public."


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:07 AM

Just how "democratic" Israel is can be found here.
http://adalah.org/upfiles/Christian%20Aid%20Report%
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:45 AM

Jim,
"Hamas fighters use civilians."
That has been accused of happening but not verified


Yes it has.
Just a few posts back I provided a video link showing how IDF telephone warnings of attacks were taken advantage of to rush civilian human shields to the target.
Remember now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:51 AM

Earlier this year, Freedom House declared Israel "a free country" and further, said it was "the only free country in all of the Middle East and North Africa."


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 12:05 PM

I remember a garbled film which was totally unclear as to what was happening - not the point anyway.
As Don has pointed out, nobody but yourself has in an any way defended terrorist activity - nobody had defended human rights abuses by Hamas, either by making excuses for them or denying they happened.
One incident by Hamas, if that's what it was, in no way excuses the whole litany of human rights abuses by Israel which have led to condemnation by the UN and by virtually every single human rights group - these have been going on since Britain pulled out of Palestine in the 1940s - at least.
The links you were given cover a whole host of those abuses (including the three on Israeli human shield violations) - you continue to ignore them.
You will continue to ignore the Inequality Report, the book on Shatla/Sabra and every single piece of evidence you claim "does not exist" proving Israel to be a human-rights abusing terrorist state.
I have every confidence that you will never provide the links to your claims about who said what on the film - which confirms that you have lied throughout and have no basis for those claims - prove me wrong.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 12:15 PM

"Just how "democratic" Israel is can be found here."

Adalah is an Arab-Palestinian advocacy organization advocating for minority rights in Israel much like similar organizations that exist in other democratic countries such as my own, Canada. As such it is an indicator of a thriving democracy as one would be hard pressed to find such organizations in a fundamentalist theocracy or dictatorship. Most countries could use improvement in their treatment of minorities viz. the plight of aboriginal people in my country and others. Israel acknowledges that it too needs to improve the treatment of it's minority population, from the survey cited above: "there is much that can and should be done to improve the civic status of Arabs in Israel and the relations between the majority and the minority."


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:27 PM

"Adalah is an Arab-Palestinian advocacy organization"
So what?
The report is sponsored by Christian Aid and published by the Konrad Adenauer Institute: as far as I know, has met with no serious challenges to the facts presented - but feel free.
You are surely not suggesting that the Palestinian Arabs should have no say in stating their case regarding the conditions pertaining for them and other ethnic/cultural minorities in Israel - certanily not after Keith has admitted that he is 'putting the Israeli case because there is nothing else'.
Israel is now being described as an apartheid state by Israelis as well as outsiders, and the situation with the Bedouins shows these inequalities to be racially based - not to mention segregation on the buses, persecution of women praying at the Wailing Wall.....
Jim Carroll
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/027/2009/en/e9892ce4-7fba-469b-96b9-c1e1084c620c/mde150272009en.pdf
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2010/02/19/think-tank-tells-israeli-government-to-declare-war-on-peace-groups/


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:34 PM

"You are surely not suggesting that the Palestinian Arabs should have no say.....yadda.....yadda.....yadda...."

If you read my post you will see that what I am saying is that the fact that Adalah exists is proof that Israel is a democracy....QED.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 03:10 PM

I remember a garbled film which was totally unclear as to what was happening
It is very clear.
A Hamas man relates that he got a warning call, and he phoned someone who herded civilians onto his roof.
He was standing well clear of the house as they waited!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE

You will continue to ignore the Inequality Report, the book on Shatla/Sabra and every single piece of evidence you claim "does not exist" proving Israel to be a human-rights abusing terrorist state.
No, but the "eye witnesses" often lie.
Deny that Jim?
Fisk and the nurse are more reliable, but they so no evidence of IDF complicity.

I have every confidence that you will never provide the links to your claims about who said what on the film - which confirms that you have lied throughout and have no basis for those claims - prove me wrong.
I am saying that not one review refers to the six saying the wrong people were hit.
Had the six said that, it would be in every one, and the main item.
How many reviews would you like me to quote that do not mention it?
Have you seen one that does?
Be clear, ARE YOU CLAIMING THE SIX SAY THAT ON FILM?

Keith has admitted that he is 'putting the Israeli case because there is nothing else'.
Back to lying and faking quotes again Jim. Shame.

situation with the Bedouins shows these inequalities to be racially based
No. Unlike Egyptian Bedouin, they are full citizens with all the rights that go with it.
- not to mention segregation on the buses,
There is no segregation on the buses.
That lie was exposed way back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:35 PM

""Re. Kuala Lumpar thing, the former United Nations Special Rappporteur on the Independence of Judges and Lawyers, Param Cumaraswamy, has suggested the tribunal is a private enterprise with no legal basis and questions its legitimacy.[12] The tribunal does not have a UN mandate or recognition, no power to order arrests or impose sentences, and it is unclear that its verdicts have any but symbolic significance.[13]""

Every critic of Israeli action denigrated or ignored, and all evidence presented by those who have suffered at their hands can be dismissed.

No comment needed on the scumbag promoter of these views.

Balance?............NOT A CHANCE!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:10 PM

""from the survey cited above: "there is much that can and should be done to improve the civic status of Arabs in Israel and the relations between the majority and the minority.""

And they've achieved so much since 1948, i.e. bugger all.

How much longer, one wonders, before the results of their sterling efforts actually become visible?

Lip service to an unwanted ideal never works. Nor does it impress the onlooker.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:30 PM

"And they've achieved so much since 1948, i.e. bugger all."

So that's why 77% of Israeli Arabs say they would rather live in the State of Israel than anywhere else in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:44 AM

Every critic of Israeli action denigrated or ignored

That is because they are all shite Don.
That assessment of "The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal" was not mine.
Can you find anyone who thinks otherwise of it?
No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:58 AM

"proof that Israel is a democracy"
And the findings from everywhere else, including groups like Jews for Justice, Unesco, UN Human Rights Watch, Amnesty.... prove that it does not.
Are you saying that the publishing of a report that outlines massive inequalities in Israeli society is proof that there is no inequality in Israeli society? - Hm... I'll have to think about that one!!
"There is no segregation on the buses."
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/israel-needs-a-rosa-parks
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17194265-a-palestinian-rosa-parks-is-needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrag
"They are full citizens with all the rights that go with it."
With full rights to be moved anywhere the Government chooses to move them - in this case, to a toxic rubbish dump.
http://apjp.org/bedouin-land-culture-threaten/
http://apjp.org/2600-bedouins-threatened-with/
TO REALLY DO NOT INTEND TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF WHAT WHAT WAS SAID ON THE FILM
As you just said "That lie was exposed way back."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:28 AM

'Palestinian Only' Buses in Israel: The Big Lies are Back
Of course there are no "Jews only" roads in Israel, just as there are no Jews only buses or even 'Palestinian only' buses in Israel. But if you tell a big lie often enough,....
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/palestinian-only-buses-in-israel-goebbels-big-lies-are-back/2013/03/05/0/


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:34 AM

TO REALLY DO NOT INTEND TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF WHAT WHAT WAS SAID ON THE FILM
Yes I have.
Quotes from 2 reviews and offerred to produce as many more as you want.
None say that the six accuse IDF of illegal actions or hitting the wrong people.
If the six had said that, it would be the main issue.

Now, you produce your evidence Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:26 AM

The weasel's wriggling out of the situation again Jim.

Why do you suppose he hasn't, or claims that he hasn't, watched the film?

He's deathly afraid that he might have to admit that he was wrong, and St Keith just cannot be wrong.

A waste of air and bandwidth.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:45 AM

I have not seen it Don.
Are you suggesting that is a lie?
Why are you so desperate to accuse me of things?
You people are never content to discuss the issues.

I may be wrong about the film but I do not believe I am.
If it says what Jim claims, it would be widely reported.
It is not reported at all.
Could Jim possibly be wrong?
If the film does not say that, he has made it up.

I can't wait to see it myself now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:48 AM

In Israel, today, there are people of conscience who decry the despotism of their leaders.
"Jews only" roads are a side issue. One of the techniques used in propaganda is to sideline major issues with smaller ones to detract from the essential issue. Although Hamas and Israel employ violence toward each other, Israel is the largest offender because it is an occupier and suppressor of Palestine, possessing more weapon technology and includes expansion of their settlements in opposition to the UN and international law.

There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have
to convert or be swept away.

Israeli propaganda is matched by similar forms coming from America. It is engendered by the power brokers in both countries and has no validity in reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 11:19 AM

In Israel, today, there are people of conscience who decry the despotism of their leaders.
And also in Palestine.

There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have
to convert or be swept away.

Wackos.
Nothing to do with our discussion.
There are adamant Muslims who claim Israel must be destroyed and Jews killed because of interpretations of Koranic statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:10 PM

""I may be wrong about the film but I do not believe I am.
If it says what Jim claims, it would be widely reported.
It is not reported at all.
Could Jim possibly be wrong?
""

Being a mere human, Jim could certainly be wrong, but HE has watched the film and drawn a conclusion based on what he saw.

YOU, on the other hand, have ignored the film and made a response based upon the lack of some airy fairy idea of what the reaction of others might be if Jim were right, concluding that, in the absence of such reaction he is not.

Why so reluctant to deal with the real facts, unless I am correct in my assessment of you as a hard wired apologist who simply cannot admit the possibility of being wrong and will refuse any evidence that you are.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM

"There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have to convert or be swept away.

Now let's have a look at what the Qur'an (the holy book of Muslims) has to say about Christians and Jews:

    Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
    Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
    When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
    Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
    Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
    The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
    Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
    The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
    Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
    (22:19)
    Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
    The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
    Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
    Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an (8:12)
    Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)

The Qur'an certainly proclaims that when the time is appropriate, Muslims must use force to convert the unbelievers to Islam. For the non-Muslims, the alternative to this is to pay the humiliating protection money (Jizya tax) or be killed (by beheading, of course). A militarily dominant Islam, without doubt, precludes the peaceful co-existence with the unbelievers if the Muslims have to abide strictly by the unalterable stipulations of the Qur'an.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM

We are not talking about drawing conclusions Don.

Jim states that in the film the six say that Israel acted illegally and killed the wrong people.

I am sure that if that was true it would have been reported in all those reviews, so I think he made that up.

I could be wrong.
I often am.
We will see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:10 PM

""Jim states that in the film the six say that Israel acted illegally and killed the wrong people.""

You would deny that nearly 7000 civilians, over 1500 of whom were children, were the wrong people??

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:19 PM

As an example of the lies told by our resident anti Arab brigade with respect to international support for Israel the following:-

""Allegations of international law violations

The establishment of Israeli settlements are held to constitute a transfer of Israel's civilian population into the occupied territories and as such are illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention.[91][92][93] This is disputed by other legal experts who argue with this interpretation of the law [94]

In 2000, the editors of the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights Palestine Yearbook of International Law (1998–1999) said "the "transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory" amounts to a war crime. They hold that this is obviously applicable to Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Arab Territories."[95]

In 2004 the International Court of Justice, in an advisory, non-binding[96] opinion, noted that the Security Council had described Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in the occupied territories as a "flagrant violation" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Court also concluded that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law and that all the States parties to the Geneva Convention are under an obligation to ensure compliance by Israel with international law as embodied in the Convention.[87]

In May 2012 the 27 ministers of foreign affairs of the European Union published a report strongly denouncing policies of the State of Israel in the West Bank and finding that settlements in the West Bank are illegal: "settlements remain illegal under international law, irrespective of recent decisions by the government of Israel. The EU reiterates that it will not recognize any changes to the pre-1967 borders including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties."[97] The report by all EU foreign ministers also criticized the Israeli government's failure to dismantle settler outposts illegal even under domestic Israeli law." (My emphasis)

Israel denies that the Israeli settlements are in breach of any international laws.[98] The Israeli Supreme Court has yet to rule decisively on settlement legality under the Geneva Convention.
""

You did state earlier in this or in the other thread that Europe supports Israel, did you not?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:31 PM

Yes they all do.
Some are critical of the W.Bank settlements.
Fair enough. The settlements are real. They exist.

They do not criticise Israel for committing terrible war crimes and massacring civilians, because that never happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:03 AM

Hamas is categorised as terrorist by EU.
Britain France, Germany and most of rest of EU want Hezbollah categorised terrorist.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/23/us-france-hezbollah-idUSBRE94M07R20130523

Israel is not, so they must all agree with me about Jim's film.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:40 AM

"..... and killed the wrong people."
Where on earth did I day that - I said no such thing and neither did the film.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:20 AM

If you'd read all the reviews you claim to have read you'd know that the film isn't about "legality" or "wrong people" - it is six men speaking about what they did, why they did it, and the effect it has had on Israel, The Middle East and the world. If "wrong" comes into it, it is in moral terms, not legal ones (soerly missing from your own input).
There is no commentary to draw legal conclusions - the men speak for themselves.
The main conclusion from the film is that past actions have brutalised the Israeli people and made the Israeli regime comparable to the Nazis - that is what should concern those defending Israel, not whether these actions are "legal".
There was nothing new about dropping bombs on occupied homes to kill suspected terrorists - that has been regular Israeli practice for a long time and was highlighted during the last Gaza incursion - it is a war crime in all but name and the reason it is not officially identified as such is because of the US vetoes which have prevented the world organisations taking action (just as Russia's and China's vetoes have protected Assad's Syria from intervention.
The same vetoes and support by the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby' is also the reason why Israel is not recognised as a terrorist state - not because the UN or Europe supports anything Israel does. Israel's behaviour has drawn condemnation from all over the world, by governments, international organisations and human rights bodies - you and your thicko/sicko buddies have continually referred to these condemnations as lies, Muslim plots, and anti-Semitism.   
You and they are a vicious idiots who twist what everything virtually everybody is saying to promote your mindless viciousness.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:44 AM

Israel's behaviour has drawn condemnation from all over the world, by governments

Only Islamic ones and dictatorships.


"Do any of the 6 accuse Israel of terrorism?"
Yes they ******* do -


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:18 AM

"the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby'"

Yes, it's true, the Jews control the world and this is how they do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:29 AM

Bobad, its obvious that you know bugger-all about the political situation in the US vis-a-vis Israel, or simply choose to ignore reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:05 AM

Remember, Jews are not all Zionists. They haven't all bought into Israeli propaganda.
Some Jews are highly critical of Israel and have a more intimate knowledge of Zionism and what it has become.

The role of the religious Christian "wackos" is extremely relevant to this conversation because the real haters of Israel are supporters of Netanyahu et. al. and their policies. The "wackos" and the military industrial complex are on track to destroying Israel by supporting aggressive Israeli militarism which the world condemns. The "wackos" have it in their game plan to destroy Jews if they don't convert, once their Jesus returns. Meanwhile, the arms merchants get rich.

Islamic fundamentalists are unfortunately on the rise worldwide due to the repressive policies of the U.S. and Israel. The military policies strengthen the reactionary forces of Islam and make it acceptable to people in Afghanstan, Pakistan, Iran, and even Turkey as well as Egypt, which you will remember, burned the Israeli embassy to the ground.

The only way to stop violence is to stop violence. The schoolyard "he did it first" mantra is useless in gaining anyone's respect.

The world is waking up to the fact that Israel could trigger a third world war. Each atrocity committed by Israel is met with increasing Islamic fanaticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 02:36 PM

Some Jews are highly critical of Israel
True of any country with freedom of speech, like Israel but excluding most of its neighbours.

The "wackos" have it in their game plan to destroy Jews if they don't convert, once their Jesus returns.
Wackos have wacko plans, but they don't matter because they are wackos.
What is your interest?
Why should we care?


They have hated Israel from day one, so you can not ascribe that to anything Israel has done.

The only way to stop violence is to stop violence. The schoolyard "he did it first" mantra is useless in gaining anyone's respect.
At last something we can agree on.
Israel has stopped attacking Gaza, Sinai and Lebanon.
When will they stop attacking Israel?
Israel has received missiles from all those places in recent weeks.

Each atrocity committed by Israel is met with increasing Islamic fanaticism.
Israel has committed no atrocity, or it would be denounced by countries like Ireland, etc.
In the real world, everyone knows these accusations are shite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:43 PM

"The role of the religious Christian "wackos" is extremely relevant to this conversation ..."

I think that the role of Islamist "wackos", of which there is a preponderance in Israel's neighbourhood, are more relevant to this conversation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:09 AM

""Israel has stopped attacking Gaza, Sinai and Lebanon.
When will they stop attacking Israel?
""

Maybe when Israel stops pushing the Palestinians into a tiny corner of the West Bank and replacing them with Israeli settlers.

Gaza isn't the only issue, however much you would like to deflect attention from the West Bank.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:06 AM

"the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby'"

Some of your fellow travelers on "the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby': VIDEO: Jew Bashing in USA


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:47 PM

This might warm some of the cold hearts around here:

Dying 4-year-old girl finds life-savers in land of the enemy
By Paul Goldman, Producer, NBC News

The young girl was dying when she arrived in the land of her country's enemy.

A heart condition had left the 4-year-old Syrian struggling to walk or even talk.

But in Israel – a country still in a state of cease-fire with Syria after the Yom Kippur War four decades ago -- she found her saviors.

Admitted earlier this month to the Wolfson Medical Center, south of Tel Aviv, she underwent life-saving surgery.

The girl is now recuperating on a ward along with children from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Sudan, Romania, China and Israel.

"She would have definitely died if she wouldn't have arrived here," Ilan Cohen, one of the doctors who treated her, said.

Read more


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:11 PM

This is the saddest part of the article linked to above:

"....the mother's and daughter's journey to safety was a long and dangerous one.

They made their way to Israel through a third country, the name of which has not been made known for security reasons.

The child and her mother are also not being named because of a potentially hostile reaction should they eventually return home.

"It's just too dangerous," said Fatma Sarsour, Arabic translator for Save a Child's Heart.

"At some point, both daughter and mother will go back to Syria and they want to keep this trip a secret," she said.

Her middle-aged mother appeared uncomfortable with media attention because of the perils of being identified and declined to comment."


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 13 - 01:29 PM

SOUTHERN SHUNEH, Jordan (AP) — Israel's president urged Israeli and Palestinian leaders on Sunday to overcome differences and resume peace negotiations, saying the sides could not afford "to lose this opportunity."

President Shimon Peres issued his call ahead of a gathering of Mideast leaders on the sidelines of a World Economic Forum meeting on the shores of the Dead Sea in Jordan. Sunday's meeting was expected to include a rare face-to-face meeting between Israeli and Palestinian leaders, along with the participation of U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who has devoted much of the past two months to restarting long-stalled peace talks.

"We shouldn't lose the opportunity because it will be replaced by a great disappointment," Peres told reporters in Jordan. "For my experience, I believe it's possible to overcome it. It doesn't require too much time."

Yahoo! News


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:51 PM

""This might warm some of the cold hearts around here:

Dying 4-year-old girl finds life-savers in land of the enemy
By Paul Goldman, Producer, NBC News
""

I don't recall anybody on this thread, or the others, having attacked Israeli doctors.

I DO recall somebody making remarks about Greg "changing the subject, when losing an argument".

Oh yeah! That was YOU Bobad, wasn't it?

As to your previous post about Jew bashing in the USA, we can discuss that, if you really care, in a thread about that topic, since those victims were Americans in the USA.

It is however another sidestep from this thread which is about the government and armed forces of the State of Israel.

What's up, changing the subject because you are losing the argument?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM

3-year-old Israeli's kidney saves Palestinian boy

When three-year-old Noam Naor fell out the window and was pronounced clinically dead 10 days ago, his parents decided to donate his organs. One kidney was given to another Israeli child. The other saved the life of a 10-year-old Palestinian.

The operation, carried out Sunday at the Schneider children's ward at Petah Tikva's Beilinson Hospital, was deemed successful.

Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.

"In my eyes, Noam's parents are noble and an inspiration to us all," German said. At the hardest moment of their life, they made a difficult decision that their son's death would bequeath life to a Palestinian child.

"Their donation is a source of pride and an example of humanity and kindness," the minister said.

The Palestinian boy had been treated with dialysis at Jerusalem's Shaare Zedek Medical Center for seven years before the match was found. The Health Ministry's transplant center contacted Noam's parents, and asked them if they'd be willing to donate the kidney to someone who wasn't Israeli — specifically, a Palestinian.

"It doesn't matter who gets the kidneys, so long as fewer children need to undergo dialysis treatments," News1 quoted Noam's father as saying.

The father of the boy who received the donation told the site he had "no words" that could express his feelings, but wanted to thank the donor's family who gave his son "a new life after years of waiting."

The Times of Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:32 PM

""Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.

"In my eyes, Noam's parents are noble and an inspiration to us all," German said. At the hardest moment of their life, they made a difficult decision that their son's death would bequeath life to a Palestinian child.

"Their donation is a source of pride and an example of humanity and kindness," the minister said.
""

My heart goes out to the parents of that dead child, and I can only marvel at what it cost to decide on organ donation. Likewise I am not surprised that ordinary Israeli citizens should feel kinship with Palestinian parents suffering as they were.

What is not clear is what relevance this has to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel's Government and armed forces, which is more likely to cause the need for transplants than the supply of same.

False equivalence is not a valid argument.

Now, if you had said that there were three possible matches for the organs, two Israelis and one Palestinian, and the Palestinian (being a slightly better match) got the transplant, I would have been very impressed indeed.

I think you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to use the selfless action of grieving parents to justify Israel's abysmal treatment of Palestinians.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:38 PM

""Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.""

Perhaps she will pass that thought on to the rest of her ministerial colleagues, and perhaps they will see it in the same light in regard to their actions in Gaza and the West Bank.

I don't think I will hold my breath while waiting though!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 04:29 PM

"I think you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to use the selfless action of grieving parents to justify Israel's abysmal treatment of Palestinians."

Fuck, you never stop with your hateful spite do you.

The thread is entitled small hope - the key word being "hope". Every act of kindness like this from either side is is a sign of hope. In the end peace will come from the citizens on each side deciding that there is more that binds them that keeps them apart. Acts like this is what brings people to better understand each other.

Only a hateful bastard like you can try and use this story to once again demonstrate your hate of Israel and the Jewish people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 08:57 AM

Easy, bobad, easy - you're spewing spittle as you type.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 09:03 AM

There might be more kindness in return were it not for fear of reprisal.
It is not healthy to be seen helping a Jew in many places.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:47 AM

""Only a hateful bastard like you can try and use this story to once again demonstrate your hate of Israel and the Jewish people.""

And only a bigoted fool Israeli government apologist would be stupid enough to call me a Jew hater, based on a post in which I specifically separated ordinary Jews from the Zionist government which is ruining what could be a thriving nation.

And only a bigoted Israeli government apologist would consider using the grief of bereaved parents to score political points in a thread about the relationship between that government ant the palestinians it is oppressing.

The cynical lack of sensitivity in that is appalling.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:58 AM

This is a thread about hope - go spread your hate elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:43 PM

""This is a thread about hope - go spread your hate elsewhere.""

If this is a thread about hope, what the hell are YOU doing here.

You just advocate more of the samewith your one sided views.

Real hope will come from those ordinary Israelis who are speaking out against the extremism of their government.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:55 PM

Like I said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:36 AM

A new round of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians have begun and are scheduled to continue for nine months. This article in the New Republic looks at the five core issues of the conflict: the borders separating Israel and a Palestinian state; the fate of Jewish settlements in the West Bank; security arrangements between the two states; the question of Palestinian refugees displaced in Israel's 1948 War of Independence (and their millions of descendants); and the status of Jerusalem.

Here's What John Kerry's Peace Settlement Will Look Like (Probably)


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:32 AM

It is great to see some hope of agreement, and moreover hope that might be practical of achievement.

It would seem that at last common sense has erupted on two sides of the divide.

BUT, and it's a big one,.....that elephant in the corner of the room is yet to be considered.

HAMAS is still the de facto government of Gaza, and at some point their agreement will have to be sought.

They will be a much harder nut to crack, and Abbas cannot realistically promise an end to the violence until they are on board.

Achieving a three cornered agreement is likely to mean greater concessions from Israel than they would be prepared to make.

The most positive part of this development is that it seems to be Israel making the first goodwill move by releasing those Palestinian prisoners without requiring a quid pro quo.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM

Hamas is becoming increasingly marginalized. They have lost much of their funding and military arrangements with their allies due to their alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and their support of the uprising in Syria. They will, of course, object to any attempts at a peace agreement with Israel but whether they resort to their usual tactic of trying to scuttle the talks by launching attacks into Israel remains to be seen. Their financial difficulties, internal squabbling and growing isolation leaves them vulnerable to local resentment which has been building for a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 10:01 AM

The other elephant in the room is the question of settlements...

But...

...if anyone can get this done, it's Kerry...

I'd give it a 30% chance of success but that beats 0%...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:29 AM

"Small hope for Israel/Palestine"
And getting smaller by the minute - or should that be 'settlement'?
Jim Carroll

ISRAEL MOVES TO BOOST SETTLEMENTS BEFORE PEACE TALKS
MARK WEISS in Jerusalem

Despite the resumption of peace talks with the Palestini¬ans, Israel has added a num¬ber of outlying West Bank set¬tlements to a list of communi¬ties entitled to special govern¬ment funding.
Ninety settlements were included on the new national priority areas map approved by the government yesterday, entitling the communities to government grants, infrastructure investment, tax breaks and other benefits.
Four dovish ministers ab¬stained in the vote, including environment minister Amir Peretz, who criticised the deci¬sion because it "contradicts this period of efforts to ad¬vance peace".
Among the new settlements eligible for special financial assistance are the! isolated communities of Rehalim, Bruchin and Sansana, considered illegal outposts until the government changed their status to fully fledged settlements.
Illegal settlements
The international community considers all of the 121 West Bank Jewish settlements, home to 350,000 Israelis, ille¬gal under international law.
The future of the settlements will be a core issue- when Israeli and Palestinian negotiators resume peace talks in Israel next week. Israel wants to keep the majority of settlers by annexing the main settlement blocs to Israel and handing over parts of Israeli territory to the Palestinians in a land-swap deal.
The new map includes 600 towns and regions as priority areas. The original aim of the national priority list was to di¬vert funds to poorer communi¬ties, particularly development towns on Israel's periphery. However, the settler lobby has added West Bank Jewish com¬munities to the list, citing "na¬tional security" criteria.
Justice minister Tzipi Livni, who heads Israel's team at the peace talks, abstained in the cabinet vote, saying the nation¬al priority map was intended to advance the national inter¬est, not political interests. "It's inappropriate to take funds in¬tended to tackle socioeconom¬ic gaps and use them to sup¬port outlying settlements in dangerous areas," she said.
Zehava Galon, leader of left-wing opposition party Meretz, called on the Knesset's legal adviser to investigate the government decision.
"The decision to include set¬tlements, whose legal status are clouded by doubt, to the map of national priorities, is a targeted effort to prevent the peace efforts and will encourage the settlers to continue to violate the law..."
Meanwhile, negotiators from both sides confirmed that Israel will release 26 veter¬an Palestinian prisoners next week. The release is the first batch of four, staggered at the request of Israel.
It is believed that the free¬ing of long-term detainees, nearly all arrested before the signing of the Oslo peace ac¬cords 20 years ago, will boost the standing of President Mahmoud Abbas on the Pales¬tinian street.
The Palestinians insist all prisoners should be freed if a comprehensive deal is reached.

Irish Times 5.8.13


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM

More settlements? Can't be. Bobad will explain to you thet Israel never does anything wrong or to provoke them hellish Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:19 AM

The bottom line is that Israel will not make any concessions. We've been here on the end of the hoodwink so many times. They'll talk all right, in full knowledge that pointless talking, for as long as possible, allows life to go nicely on in Israel with less danger of rocket attacks. Even Israel knows that jaw-jaw is better than war-war, even when the jaw-jaw is fraudulent. Israel does not have to make any concessions, or stop building settlements, because whatever they do the US will do nothing except express mild concern. So why should they enter genuine talks? No need. Not until the day the US tells Israel that aggression against neighbours and settlement expansion will result in a withdrawal of military aid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:36 AM

The fact remains that the Palestinians living in the West Bank are faring much better under Israel's "occupation" than did the Jews living in the West Bank under the illegal occupation by Jordan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:03 AM

S' what - if it were only true - and there is no evidence that this is the case.?
Human rights abuses don't become any less because other people do them.
A war criminal is a war criminal is a war criminal - and so ad infinitum
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:25 AM

So what, Bobad - it's still an occupation (no quotes). Are your usual excuses presumed to make it all OK? Or are the Palestinians supposed to be grateful for being subjugated?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:59 AM

Myths and Facts
Mitchell G. Bard

MYTH

"Israel "occupies" the West Bank."

FACT

In politics words matter and, unfortunately, the misuse of words applying to the Arab-Israeli conflict has shaped perceptions to Israel's disadvantage. As in the case of the term "West Bank," the word "occupation" has been hijacked by those who wish to paint Israel in the harshest possible light. It also gives apologists a way to try to explain away terrorism as "resistance to occupation," as if the women and children killed by homicide bombers in buses, pizzerias, and shopping malls were responsible for the plight of the Arabs. Given the negative connotation of an "occupier," it is not surprising that Arab spokespersons use the word or some variation as many times as possible when interviewed by the press. The more accurate description of the territories in Judea and Samaria is "disputed" territories.

In fact, most other disputed territories around the world are not referred to as being occupied by the party that controls them. This is true, for example, of the hotly contested region of Kashmir.

Occupation typically refers to foreign control of an area that was under the previous sovereignty of another state. In the case of the West Bank, there was no legitimate sovereign because the territory had been illegally occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1967. Though the Palestinians never demanded an end to Jordanian occupation and the creation of a Palestinian state, only two countries — Britain and Pakistan — recognized Jordan's action.

It is also important to distinguish the acquisition of territory in a war of conquest as opposed to a war of self-defense. A nation that attacks another and then retains the territory it conquers is an occupier. One that gains territory in the course of defending itself is not in the same category. And this is the situation with Israel, which specifically told King Hussein that if Jordan stayed out of the 1967 war, Israel would not fight against him. Hussein ignored the warning and attacked Israel in 1967. While fending off the assault and driving out the invading Jordanian troops, Israel came to control the West Bank. Had Hussein heeded the warning, the Palestinians of the West Bank would in all likelihood be happily living as Jordanian citizens.

By rejecting Arab demands that Israel be required to withdraw from all the territories won in 1967, the UN Security Council in Resolution 242 acknowledged that Israel was entitled to claim at least part of these lands for new defensible borders.

Since Oslo, the case for tagging Israel as an occupying power has been further weakened by the fact that Israel transferred virtually all civilian authority to the Palestinian Authority. Israel retained the power to control its own external security and that of its citizens, but 98 percent of the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza came under the PA's authority. The extent to which Israel has been forced to maintain a military presence in the territories has been governed by the Palestinians' unwillingness to end violence against Israel. The best way to end the dispute over the territories is for the Palestinians to fulfill their obligations under the Oslo agreements and stop the terror and negotiate a final settlement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:14 PM

Well, Bobad,

So Mr. Bard wishes us to pretend that the settlements don't exist? Or is it YOU that wishes us to pretend they dont exist, with Mr. bard as a backup?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:26 PM

One wonders why, if Israel is going to make it ten times harder to come to an agreement in order to expand its territory it should go through the motions in the first place
After the last incursion the Zionists demanded that it was time to "cut off electricity and water and drive the Palestinians into the desert".
It would be extremely interesting to see how the human rights courts would react to such a suggestion.
The last time Israel embarked on a major policy of expansion of settlements it was as an act of revenge for Palestine having been partially accepted into the United Nations
So Palestinians fared better under Israel than it did under Jordan - jeez - them Jordanians must have been real bad bastards!!
Tsk, tsk Boo Boo, what would Yogi say?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:00 PM

The Irish Times article says "The international Community considers all of the 121 West Bank Settlements, home to 350,000 Israelis, to be illegal under international law."
The opposition party leader says, The decision to include settlements whose legal status are clouded by doubt, to the map of national properties, is a targeted effort to prevent the peace efforts and will encourage settlers to continue to violate the law".
Wouldn't the first step in defending these actions be to show us how neither is the case?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:22 AM

So Palestinians fared better under Israel than it did under Jordan - jeez - them Jordanians must have been real bad

Not real bad, just not so well administered.
Surveys quoted here support this and there is no movement of people from West Bank in to Jordan.

Jordan chose to attack Israel to seize its sovreign territory.
They invaded across the long and hard to defend land border, but were pushed back to the river.

It is legitimate for Israel to hold that new border.

It is discriminatory to say that only one ethnic group may live there.
Why not Jews?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:42 AM

And right on cue......
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:54 AM

Jim, you usually are in favour of welcoming settlers.
As you recently said, "Where will they live, perhaps in houses they have bought from money they earned themselves - maybe from building houses?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:29 AM

Keith
"Jim, you usually are in favour of welcoming settlers."
I most certainly am where their settlement is both legal and beneficial.
We have long become used to Israel's murderously predatory settlement policy, but the timing of this particular stunt is a clear indication that they have no interest whatever in peace - why should they - they've got superior fire-power and US support (or have they?) - (and probably God) on their side what more could a girl wish for?).
It is a deliberately timed action which will almost certainly guarantee that the negotiations are scuppered and the killing goes on and is a clear definition of intent which has, without a doubt, the full backing of you and your happy band of peacemakers who refuse to even respond to this possibility.
As you and your fellow Israeli regime arse-lickers have studiously avoided the fact that these "illegally identified" on "occupied land" settlements (none of which bear the remotest comparison to legal immigration - unless you happen to be of that particular mindset) have been deliberately accelerated at a time when peace talks are taking place, there seems little point in following you into yet another of your 'Black Holes'.
I'm sure you'll manage to have (yet again)the last word on this without actually addressing the facts of the matter - push on - I'll leave you to it!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:43 AM

And by the way - your attempts to compare legal immigration to Britain to the illegal, predatory, racially based (and often involving the eviction of legitimate occupants) settlement policy of the Israelis says all that needs to be said on this matter.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:24 AM

Why should it be illegal for a Jewish family to settle in West Bank?
Why will they not accept settlers of all races as we do?
Why must it be ethnically clean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:44 AM

Israel's side of the story.
"◾The provisions of the Geneva Convention regarding forced population transfer to occupied sovereign territory cannot be viewed as prohibiting the voluntary return of individuals to the towns and villages from which they, or their ancestors, had been ousted. Nor does it prohibit the movement of individuals to land which was not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state and which is not subject to private ownership. In this regard, Israeli settlements have been established only after an exhaustive investigation process, under the supervision of the Supreme Court of Israel, designed to ensure that no communities are established on private Arab land.

◾It should be emphasised that the movement of individuals to the territory is entirely voluntary, while the settlements themselves are not intended to displace Arab inhabitants, nor do they do so in practice."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/israeli%20settlements%20and%20international%20law.aspx


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:46 AM

"Why should it be illegal for a Jewish family to settle in West Bank?"
Is it - I thought it was large settlements that were the problem, not individual families?
"Why will they not accept settlers of all races as we do?"
Don't they - do you have any evidence that they don't?
"Why must it be ethnically clean?"
Must it - where is your evidence that it has to be (unlike illegal settlements that are built for Jews and have stated that non-Jews are not welcome and in many cases, not allowed to live in them?
Why do you attempt to make this an issue of discrimination against Jews rather than one of expansionism?
And the most unfathomable (sic) question of them all;
Why won't your mob address the deliberately chosen timing for the expansion of these settlements and the effects that it will inevitably have on the peace talks?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 07:27 AM

Are our settlers "expanding" their country of origin by coming here?
Are you expanding England by settling in Ireland Jim?

It is the fact that they are Jews that the Palestinians object to.
Do deny it again Jim.
It makes you look stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:12 AM

da-da -da-da - Black hole warning!!
Anwser the point and stop comparing legal Britain immigration with Israeli illegal expansionist lethal terrorism
Answer the "deliberate timing" point - that is what this is about - not peddling British anti-immigration racism
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:22 AM

So what happened to the lands on which the Jews lived in the West Bank after they were expelled from there by the Jordanians after their illegal occupation in 1948?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:22 AM

""The fact remains that the Palestinians living in the West Bank are faring much better under Israel's "occupation" than did the Jews living in the West Bank under the illegal occupation by Jordan.""

500,000 Israeli settlers in West Bank and E. Jerusalem occupy 61 percent of the land area (growing daily), while almost 2 million Palestinians are crammed into the remaining 39 percent.

Those Israelis certainly believe in having plenty of space to stretch, something denied to all Palestinians.

Bobad, given that the settlements are considered to be ilegal by the International Community, what is your justification for invoking irrelevant historical injustices?

Do you believe they justify any actions taken today,......by anybody?

The introduction of twenty new settlements while pretending to seek a peaceful solution, leads the concerned onlooker strongly to suspect that the Palestinians can forget about any hope of concessions, or even status quo,...in fact any hope at all!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM

""It is legitimate for Israel to hold that new border.

It is discriminatory to say that only one ethnic group may live there.
Why not Jews?
""

It should not be ilegal for individuals to settle there and it certainly isn't a case of wanting to ethnically cleanse an existing population.....

HEY! Wait a minute!

It IS a case ot ethnic cleansing, BY THE SETTLERS, of nearly two million of the existing Palestian population, forcing them into only 39% of the West Bank while 367,000 Israelis live in the other 60%, and to keep the Palestinians at bay they buid a wall and defences including an exclusion zone on the Palestinian side enforced by armed soldiers with permission to shoot.

In fact they have better defences aginst the Palestinians than against Jordan, the reason why they claim the right to hold that border.

That's like England in 1940, faced with German aggression, fortifying the Scottish border. Mind you Hadrian got there first.

They also ethnically cleansed vast olive groves which were the only livelihood of the now very cleansed owners.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:24 PM

Settlements are made up of individual families.
just like settlers here, they like to live together in communities.

BBC.
"West Bank: Israeli settlements
Since 1967, Israel has pursued a policy of building settlements on the West Bank. These cover about 2% of the area of the West Bank.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/settlements_checkpoints.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:57 PM

since 1967, Israel has pursued a policy of building settlements on the West Bank. These cover about 2% of the area of the West Bank.

Sure, Keith. But you're not counting the no-go zones, are you? And, in the words of Woody, when it comes to desirable land, the Israelis get the oil, the Palestinians get the grease. Happened in apartheid South Africa, happened in Ian Smith's Rhodesia. Exactly the same arguments as yours, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:45 PM

"Settlements are made up of individual families."
Settlements are made for Jews - they are made on occupied land by evicting non-jews, and they often come with specific conditions that no non-Jew should be allow to buy or rent there.
Can we establish from the Brown Noses;
Does the expansion of settlements have no relevance to the present peace negotiations?
If it does, why are the Israelis pursuing a policy of increased expansionism in the middle of peace negotiations?
Can anybody explain why a policy of aggressive expansionism cannot possible have no effect on peace talks?
Given the constant blaming for the trouble in the area on the Palestinians, how does one square the behaviour of the Israelis with "seeking peace"?
Are we to assume that the only 'Peace' the Israelis are interested in is one that will allow them to continue expanding their settlements?
And last but far from least:
Why do you bunch of braindeads (Keith and Boo Boo) continue to refuse to address the present situation when even you pair must realise that to continue to do so is answer enough?
Have a good night D' y'all hear?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:03 AM

The annual Palestinian population population growth is greater than the numbers arriving.
After 30+ years of settlements, the immigrants form just 13% of the population.
70% of those immigrants are settled close to the major cities.

Some of us think that immigration enriches a society.
I question the motives of those who want them all to go back where they came from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:05 AM

should read 40+ years of immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:38 AM

And once again you choose to ignore the FACTS put in front of you.
Israel is creating settlements on occupied land destined for Jews only - FACT
Many of these settlements are created by evicting ethnic groups who have occupied the land for centuries - FACT
In some cases the ethnic purity of those settlements is protected by law - FACT
Nowhere in the area has it been recorded that Arabs have attempted to prevent Jews from settling anywhere (despite your claims to the contrary - "Why must it be ethnically clean?") - FACT
Whatever the rights and wrongs of these settlements, the Israelis and Palestinians have embarked on peace talks which might, just might arrive at a conclusion where lives can be saved and a sort of coexistence might be arrived at - FACT
Israel has embarked on yet another round of settlements that will almost certainly scupper any chances of these peace attempts having any success, which is a clear indication that they have no interest in a peaceful settlement unless it allows them to continue to expand their territory - FACT
You and your Isriaphile buddies refuse to discuss or even acknowledge any of these FACTS - FACT
You will continue to do so for the foreseeable future as you have no interest whatever in the FACTS of what is happening at the present time.FACT
In addition, you have iced this revolting cake by attempting to equate legal immigrants arriving in Britain with illegal Israeli settlements which have often been achieved by eviction and brute force, are "ethnically pure" motivated and will drive any plans for peace deep into the ground, leading to more innocent deaths - which just about scrapes the bottom of an already all-but-bottomless barrel - FACT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:44 AM

Missed a bit
"Some of us think that immigration enriches a society."
Unless it isn't to Britain
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:13 AM

It is a FACT that the settlers are Jews.
Sorry.

The claim that they are illegal is based on Geneva convention.
It is disputed that it applies to this migration because it is not "forced."

Without immigration, room would have to be found for an extra 70 000 people every year anyway.
It is not the number of immigrants that is significant, it is something else about them that makes them resented.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:36 AM

"it is something else about them that makes them resented."
It is indeed - pure blind bigoted hatred on the part of you and your kind.
It served to provide the Southern States of America with its 'Strange Fruit', why not Britain?
Facts really do get in the way of a good story and are best ignored
Keep it up Keithie - including your rabid anti-immigration campaign, it helps pass an entertaining rainy day
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:19 AM

In this case Jim. there is another very good reason for the settlers being resented.

They occupy just 2% of the West bank, but require 60% of it to protect themselves being polluted by the presence of the indiginous population they have forcibly excluded.

They need room for their rapidly increasing population to thrive, and they acquire it by enclosing 2 million human beings in just 40% of the West Bank,

To put it another way, based upon that mindset, before the Israeli settlers begin to feel crowded, it'll be standing room only in the Palestinian area.

If there is, according to the Israeli government, room for 2 million Palestians in their area, then there is room for 3 million people in the area occupied by 367,000 Israelis. They'll be needing some fantastic breeding programme to justify the need for that space.

The above is intended to inform those egregious idiots who actually believe the reason for expansion is population growth.

A look at the map will show the area of land occupied by 6 million Israelis, against the area into which 3.7 million Palestians have been compacted.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:23 AM

Small correction! Latest figures show 4.2 million Palestinians in total.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

From the Jewish Daily Forward

For those who constantly repeat the Israeli government propaganda, this is well worth reading, especially as it is from an Israeli publication.

""The number of Palestinians living in Area C may be small, but the area they live in constitutes 62% of the total West Bank and includes its most fertile and resource-rich land. No less significantly, this section of the West Bank encompasses all of Israel's Jewish settlements. And lately, voices on the right that may be part of Israel's next ruling coalition are calling for the outright, unilateral annexation of this West Bank sector.'

Those advocating this move notably include Israel's minister of public diplomacy, Yuli Edelstein, who is a senior member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's ruling Likud Party, and his fellow party member Ze'ev Elkin, a top Likud Knesset member.

The head of Israel's Jewish Home party, which will be the third largest in Israel's recently elected parliament, is also urging that Israel take this step. Like many others, Naftali Bennett, the party chief, is attracted by the prospect of absorbing the lion's share of the West Bank's land and a minimum number of its Palestinian residents.

"There are 350,000 Israelis living in Area C and only 50,000 Arabs," he told Israel's Ynet news website in February 2012. "They will become full-fledged Israeli citizens and according to this plan no one — neither a Jew nor an Arab — would be driven out of his home."

But right now, charge critics, Palestinians are, indeed, being driven out of their homes in Area C as the possibility of Israeli annexation emerges.

A 2011 research report conducted by the European Union noted that in 1967 between 200,000 and 320,000 Palestinians lived in the Jordan Valley, most of which is in Area C. But demolition of Palestinian homes and prevention of new buildings has seen the number drop to 56,000, the report said. In a similar period, it added, the Jewish population in Area C has grown from 1,200 to 310,000.

In many ways, the challenges confronting the residents of this tiny village exemplify the issues at stake.

The IDF order to demolish the Nabi Samwil school's toilet is part of a broader building ban it is enforcing, based on a 1997 designation of the area in which the village sits as a national park. Israel views all of the sites in which Nabi Samwil's Palestinians live as illegal structures.

That designation contrasts with the situation just across the road in the Har Shmuel Jewish settlement, where many new villas are under construction as part of the "natural growth" of the community. In Nabi Samwil, as elsewhere in Palestinian villages of Area C, not only is natural growth not allowed, it is actively stymied, according to international and Israeli critics.

"There is a definite preference for allocating land to settlements while embittering Palestinian lives to the point where they will leave," said Alon Cohen-Lifshitz, who scrutinizes Israeli land and housing plans for Area C for Bimkom, an Israeli non-governmental organization that promotes progressive planning policies. Cohen-Lifshitz terms this a "silent transfer" of Palestinians from Area C.
""

Comments? (preferrably more reasoned and logical than "Israel denies it")

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:47 AM

I don't expect we'll get a response to the fact reported this morning that four Israeli soldiers have been injured in an incursion into Lebanese territory - they stood on a land main.
Their illegal incursion was part of a larger one carried ot to "protect Israel's borders"
It seems the hope of any peace treaty is rapidly disappearing into the sunset.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:24 AM

Let's wait for details Jim.

Don, those bloody immigrants coming here and getting all the best houses, right?

The fact is that after 40+ years, they only represent 13% of the population and occupy 2% of the land.

The whining is all about politics and race.

Population density of West Bank is similar to SE England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:09 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Reinforcing respectful 'boundaries'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:23 AM

You have accused me of making things up on several occasions, including some for which I have been able to supply proof.

In every case your accusation was a lie.

Of all the posters on this site you are the most biased, the most bigotted, the most xenophobic and the most dishonest.

In future, no post from you will receive a response from me.

To me, you do not exist.
""

FFS Get the message. I do not want any communication with you!

Henceforth YOU WILL BE IGNORED!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:01 AM

to justify the need for that space.

Well, I dunno, Don - "Lebensraum" was an important component of Nazi ideology in Germany, and they never justified it, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:49 AM

"Let's wait for details Jim."
The Israelis have already held their hands up to this one Keith "for the defence of Israel's borders" is their line - but thanks for your explanation in advance, it was fully anticipated, late in fact!
"Henceforth YOU WILL BE IGNORED!"
Good luck with that one Don!
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that would be like pretending you haven't got a nasty dose of the clap.
I've just made a similar declaration of intent on the Famine thread, but I don't hold out much hope unless I can persuade my GP to immunise me.
Perhaps we should do what they did at Eyam and isolate ourselves so he can't infect anybody else!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:33 AM

Which news agency gave you that Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:39 AM

Proof Don?
Have you given us a name or a court for you ridiculous story.

The only other thing I said could not be true is that you personally know five people whose cars were damaged or written off in collisions caused by but not involving cyclists.
No-one could believe that.

You have to stop reading my posts to avoid that very obvious fact that you can not produce proof because it is all bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:43 AM

And of course, Keith YOU don't have to produce any proof whatsoever for any of the bullshit you spout.

Amusing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 01:52 PM

""You have to stop reading my posts to avoid that very obvious fact that you can not produce proof because it is all bollocks.""

I owe you no answers and no proof to rebut your wild guesses Thicko!

Final word:- GO FUCK YOUSELF!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:15 PM

It was not just me Don.
Your tales were just not believable.
If you want people to believe such unlikely things, you need to give them something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 10:39 AM

Palestinian leaders must halt the hatred

"...the cycle of indoctrination and violence cannot be broken without facing up to its existence, to the need for Western media attention and, above all, to the necessity for the Palestinians' own leadership to halt the hatred and declare clearly in Arabic to Arab audiences that Israel and its people have a rightful place in the Middle East."

The Boston Globe


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