BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term

Subject: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:24 AM

One of the reasons that atheism has become strident in recent times is that today there are people who are religious bullies that show no tolerance for an atheist point of view. The evidence for this is the insulting idea that atheism or what I would prefer to call it, non-belief or FreeThought is uniform and somehow has a bible or doctrine. This attitude has no respect for non-belief and as a result deserves no respect in turn for those ideas that promulgate such bigoted opinions.


We can get along if an honest respect is shown for differing points of view without an attempt to mind-rape non-believers into forcing them into some kind of religion which not only doesn't make sense but insults their intelligence.


Ideas, religious or political need to be expressed in a rational non-rage-aholic way and condemnations by inflammatory threads to attack non-believers serves to shut down legitimate discourse.


Mudcat is not a religious or atheistic forum but a genuine attempt to share honest ideas even if we all don't agree.

Thanks, Joe, for offering a forum for honest opinions in an environment today where people in power attempt to suppress ideas that they don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 May 13 - 11:32 AM

All I ask politicians is that when they refer to "people of all faiths" they add the 2 little words "and none." Blair did that after 9-11, Obama did it in his 1st inaugural address. Rarely heard since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 15 May 13 - 11:38 AM

Whatever, haven't we had enough of this shit lately .. but it is your right to keep the threads coming if you so wish ... But I bet I speak for more than a few when I say ... There is enough shit on mudcat and we don't need anymore shit flinging

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 15 May 13 - 11:39 AM

and I won't talk about my religious beliefs if you don't talk about yours

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 May 13 - 12:13 PM

amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 15 May 13 - 12:17 PM

Strident atheism not a religion ...but strident stupidity is!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 May 13 - 01:05 PM

That would be a nice touch, Mrrzy.
Good point about religious bullies, Stringsinger. I have one in my immediate family and several amongst my inlaws which makes for some pretty hairy holiday gatherings and although I've been a live and let live non-theist since I learned to think for myself (that is not a jab at the faithful) I lean toward strident atheism when confronted by them and other evangelical christians who try to force the "I am the way and the light" doctrine on me as well as their anti-choice and anti-gay agendas. Sadly, these folks, whose company I do enjoy (most of them, anyway) when not blungeoned with their religious discourse, would be bullies regardless of their religious inclinations as evidenced by their agressive political posturing. Not surprisingly they all get their marching orders from Rush Limbaugh. Christian fundamentalism seems to just be another weapon in their arsenal.
That said, a large majority of the christians I know are kind, charitable, non-judgemental people.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 13 - 01:16 PM

"Whatever, haven't we had enough of this shit lately"
I sem to remember you opening a rather nasty thread on your own recently.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 May 13 - 01:35 PM

Ho hum. More and more and more and so to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:00 PM

...but is my lackadaisical and apathetic atheism a religion if I fervently work to keep it that way? I strongly resist any temptation to knock on the door of my local Jehovah's Witnesses Temple and ask them leading questions.

Scholars differ....

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:19 PM

True, Bill D, and of course it isn't rare to hear that someone practice an instrument religiously ..

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:25 PM

My religion is played on turf over 90 mins or 98 if you are away to Man Utd. Not that we get that privilege these days.

If I put what religious dudes call atheism to my Creed I would say that my brand of religion (Sheffield Wednesday) has less adherents than many other religions and the evidence shows my claims of the only team worth supporting would be seen to be shallow claims. Still, faith is faith and truth is truth. The one true path leads to S6 on a Saturday afternoon.

I don't want others to follow my religion and if you show me respect how the hell can we argue in the pub?

That's what puts it apart from most organised religions. It tolerates other religions, especially when taking 6 points off them in a season.

Oh. It doesn't tell me how to run my life either. It accepts that I will ring Praise or Grumble on BBC Radio Sheffield and have the odd bitch.

But the rest of the time it accepts I don't need someone to tell me how to behave and trusts me to be a responsible person who does the odd good deed for its own sake. It doesn't judge me when I piss in the bushes when staggering home from the pub and doesn't make me feel guilty about coveting my neighbour's missus. (To give a hypothetical situation.   Dear.   Fancy a cuppa? No. Just posting on mudcat my sweet. I didn't even realise he had a missus actually. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:01 PM

Yes, but the almighty NFL is the One True Football!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:59 PM

doesn't make me feel guilty about coveting my neighbour's missus.

Well I suppose it's better than coveting your neighbour's ass. Or not. Dammit, it might be. Have you got photos? Are you sure you're not just a little pissed off because CHELSEA have just triumphed?

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:06 PM

My feisty atheist neighbour in my previous village hated Jehovah's Witnesses coming round. She was in her front garden watering the flowers one Sunday when a pair arrived, beautifully dressed in posh outfits. She turned the hose on them and shouted "Okay! Let us spray!" I had to run out with a towel so they could dry off a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: michaelr
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:21 PM

Haha! I like your neighbour!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:25 PM

Your feisty, atheistic, neighbor turned the hose on people because she didn't like their religious beliefs. This is good? Help me out, because I am totally missing it...

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:48 PM

sheesh I doubt that it was because she "didn't like their religious beliefs." More because she objected to the proselytizing, the invasiveness, not to mention the wasted time that no one gets back.

I have never done anything overtly impolite to a visiting pair but I have most definitely been assertive in telling them that I have my own beliefs and that I don't feel obligated to discuss them. I have also told them that I would prefer that they not waste their time by coming back.

Once a few years ago on a public sidewalk I took a threatening step toward an unpleasant individual who wouldn't shut up (not JW or LDS) and he skedaddled. He really thought I was going to hit him. If he had stood still, perhaps I would have. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:53 PM

LOL, Eliza.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: John P
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:52 AM

We can get along if an honest respect is shown for differing points of view

followed by

haven't we had enough of this shit lately

and

Strident atheism not a religion ...but strident stupidity is!!

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 09:04 AM

I would never be rude to Jehovah's Witnesses or anyone else who knocked on my door and I always take their handouts and read them. It's quite instructive. If they've called at a bad time I'll tell them so, politely, but more often I'll have a little chinwag with 'em. There are always areas of agreement in any case. Yes, it is a wonderful world and yes, it all fills me with wonder as to how it all got here, etc. But then I have to tell them that the theory of evolution by natural selection explains all the diversity, beauty and complexity of life on Earth and that, in my view, inexplicably-complex and highly improbable bolt-ons to that, God for example, are not required. You simply can't explain something by conjuring up an "explanation" that is, in itself, totally inexplicable! That's usually the prompt for a fond farewell!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:59 AM

"
Whatever, haven't we had enough of this shit lately .. but it is your right to keep the threads coming if you so wish ... But I bet I speak for more than a few when I say ... There is enough shit on mudcat and we don't need anymore shit flinging"

I bet you speak for quite a few people. Religious bullies are very good about shutting people up when they don't agree with them but they reserve the right to express their views freely.

The more insults that religious people give to atheists, the larger the atheist movement grows worldwide.

The reason that atheism has suddenly become strident is this very reaction of intolerance.

i don't even like the word "atheist" that much because it doesn't describe the level of non-belief. I'm not an "aunicornist" or and "aSantaclausist" or an "atoothfairiest" but I am fairly certain that there is no evidence for any god reserving the small percentage that I possibly could be wrong. With religious bullies, there is no uncertainty whatever.

The only reason that I keep this going is that my intelligence has been insulted by the idea that my non-belief is a religion. Why should I respect anyone's religious ideas when my own ideas are not respected but reviled?

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 May 13 - 12:09 PM

...if you show me respect how the hell can we argue in the pub?

Exxactly.

Also hosing isn't a good idea unless it was really, really hot, or the people were once their clothes were wet (ducking and running for cover)...

Far better to try to convert *them* to rationality. Makes for a short discussion, usually, and they don't come back for a while, especially if you make it a point to flirt outrageously with the younger one and point out that the only reason not to have sex all the time like bonobos is pretty much their religion!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:07 PM

Mark me as stridently intolerant of all religious views. Athiestic as well. All very boring.

VAMOS !

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:32 PM

Yea I am a bully, I sit here minding my own business while you start another thread on the Gospel of Dawkins. Who is the bully here what don't you fucking get, people get sick of religious threads and the trolls who start them.   That includes atheist.

fucking clueless

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:41 PM

nobody I mean nobody gives a rats ass what someone believes or doesn't believe, that is entirely personal. However preaching on a music site is going to get some fiery reaction from other members in case ya didn't notice. Nobody give a shit about what anyone doesn't believe in or does believe in. fucking total clueless to think it matters. Like others have just posted, take you beliefs or non beliefs and keep your Gospel private as I do mine. Nobody cares what I believe or don't, likewise with Dawkins followers. if it is so important to preach go knock on doors. More than a few people have already said this time and again

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:42 PM

try a hobby, me and Will and Q like old watches. Bobster like chainsaws and antiques. for fuck sake

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:44 PM

Old dude. Have you the ISBN or the American book reference for this gospel of Dawkins? I would like to read it because you have me at a disadvantage.

In the clueless stakes, between Galileo and the Pope of the day, I know where I'd place my money. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 04:01 PM

All organized religion has its evil also because it is a function of man. Me I walk my own path anc certainly don't try to tell others mine is best or there's is stupid. My point is, Who cares what anyone believes or doesn't. I don't ask my friends what they believe or don't believe. I simply cherish them. I never ever read so much hate as I have in both the atheist threads and the religious thread. Ya know it is always a mistake to lump people into a general category but Strings seems to love doing that if you read all his posts.

My point is who have you helped today, who's day did you make better .. I bet I already know the answer. so like I said ... most catters are pissed off over all of these threads religious or atheist. They are productive to noone

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:36 PM

What is it about religion that makes people so angry? Why is it that a civilized discussion about it can't take place?

If it is such a problem, why even bother to respond to this thread or any other about
this issue?   If people are tired of this topic they have the option not to respond and ignore it and can curb their hostility.

The reason that atheists today are strident is precisely because there is a tendency to put non-believers in a little box and make all kinds of theories up about why they believe what they do. They are reviled by many people who are intolerant. They are treated as if they are sick puppies. Their stridency means they have been unduly maligned over the years.

Obviously, people do care about this issue since they bother to reply to it.

Why do threads pop up that try to define atheists as having pain, or another religion, or any futile pseudo-psychological analysis of their motives?

What is it about religion that makes people defensive? Is it that their own beliefs are shaky?

Why is religion considered such a sacred topic that it can't be talked about in the way we discuss politics or issues of social concerns or any other topic for that matter?

The thread that stated the canard that atheism was a kind of religion seems to have a lot of Mudcatters responding to it. That thread was helpful if it really got people thinking about it.   This thread is an answer to that other one.


I feel no hostility to anyone personally to anyone on Mudcat but there are a lot of bigoted and silly ideas floating around that need a response and deserve no respect.

One of them is that non-belief is a religion. Personally, I don't care what you believe as long as you don't attack atheists by foolish interpretations of how they think. Then that deserves a rational response.

Also, this is the BS section, not the music section and it's appropriate to discuss many topics here, some which may be uncomfortable.

Otherwise what's the point of having a BS section at all? Just "shut up and sing!"

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:35 PM

cause ya got three threads going on all with the same subject ... The issue has been debated to death. And it ain't just atheists either. It is the same issue with the neighbor lady that came to my house two years ago from the assembly of God Church. First I was polite but brief, the second time in the same week I was less then polite. The third time in the same week I went off on her and said my belief is private. My relationship with God is private. Nobody cares what you believe or don't Take it elsewhere. Likewise all these threads ever accomplish is a pissing match and nothing ever changes. Why bother. Everyone I talk to on mudcat gets fed up with them but is afraid to say anything. Me I am not afraid to say anything. But hey if it floats yer boat.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:36 PM

Come autumn, I worship the Great Pumpkin, I partake of his flesh in wondrous pies; my recipe is the best!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:48 PM

{{{{{ Mrrzy }}}}}}


...or more than that???

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:02 PM

Everyone I talk to on mudcat gets fed up with them but is afraid to say anything.

Well, you are an angry man it would seem, but angry men get listened to better if they refrain from making up this kind of rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:26 PM

Stringsinger, olddude has a point. The recent overabundance of threads on atheism is annoying, no matter who has started them. There was already a thread titled BS: Militant atheism has become a religion - and there were already far too many atheist threads before that. Anything said in this thread, could have been said in the other threads.

You ask, Why is it that a civilized discussion about it can't take place? Well, I like to talk about religious issues; but I don't want to be in a place where people think I'm pushing my religion on somebody else. I also don't really want to be forced into a place where I feel pressured to defend my religion. And I'm sorry, but I feel no need to apologize for molester priests or abusive nuns or obnoxious door-to-door evangelists - I have never supported any of those activities at any time in my life, so why should I feel bound to apologize for them. I've devoted my life to social justice and tolerance, so why should I feel compelled to apologize for anyone who is unjust or intolerant? I've questioned my religious faith and my religious denomination (Catholic) all my life. I know damn well what are the shortcomings of my religious denomination, and I've fought those shortcomings for decades. I don't want to be condemned for those shortcomings, because I have never supported them.

I've known about the Spanish Inquisition and child molesting priests all my life, and I have NEVER supported them - but yet I am continually attacked in this forum because of them. I've been called a child molester in this forum, simply because I'm Catholic - and despite the fact that I have worked long and hard to prevent sexual abuse in my church.

I do have a strong religious faith. I see the sacred in most everything that surrounds me - but I want to enjoy and appreciate that and I really don't want to defend it or argue about it. I have utmost respect for science and the scientific method - but I also enjoy what I see as an experience of the presence of the divine in all that science describes. But that's a personal thing, and I don't want to burden others with that if they don't see things the way I see them.

Aside to pete from seven stars link: I'm sorry, but I can't see the creation story in the bible as scientific truth. I think Darwin does a far better job of describing how it happened, even though some details may be different. Still, I see the Bible as an important statement of the presence of the divine from before the beginning of all things. If other people don't see the divine in what I see, that's fine with me - just don't bug me about it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:36 PM

That guest was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:58 PM

In rational, grown-up debates, I see no harm is asking people to defend their religious faith. Not that you belong to a Catholic church that contains abusing priests, etc. That's your affair. I've worked in schools with head teachers and senior staff that I've hated, but they were not the really important people and I didn't leave. For forty years I've been a member of a trade union that I think has been lily-livered in almost every aspect of what unions are supposed to be for, but I fought from within to try to make it better. You're not guilty just because you mindfully stick with something. But religion in general has been cosseted for millennia. We are supposed to be gentle on religion (it was worse at one time, of course, what with heresy laws and what have you). We are supposed to tolerate religious symbolism and iconography and ceremony as the default settings of society. We get shouted at for suggesting that children should be raised as free thinkers, not shackled to a faith that they belong to only by accident of birth. It's curmudgeonly to criticise harvest festivals in which the laziest bugger in existence is praised for his alleged bountiful gifts (and we ignore the pests and diseases and droughts he puts in our way, of course). It's mean to suggest we deprive little children of the Christmas fairytale with its carols and Christingles. But these things are manifestations of the faith, peddled as truth, that you don't think you should have to defend. I'm not sure about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 09:16 PM

And so, Steve, what would your ideal world be? How must I behave to make you happy? Must I apologize every time I sing a carol, and appreciate icons only behind closed doors because they may offend someone? Should I shroud the Vatican in canvas, and grind the Pieta into gravel? What is it that would make you happy?

If I'm thankful to Whomever or Whatever for abundance and if I ask for deliverance from pestilence, what's it to you?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 11:22 PM

You are right Steve I am angry. I have one thread on pocket and wrist watches. I don't start a new daily thread on them. I add to the thread that already exists. If you want to do your preaching, pick one of the 1000 threads that you bash everyone of any belief and go at it. The the rest of us don't have to wade through your preaching when we want to talk to our friends who lost a loved one or those are sick and getting chemo. Or just need some Spaw laughs. Instead we all have to jump over your preaching threads. I don't care what you believe or don't believe. I could give a rats ass wasting time trying to explain my beliefs because they, unlike yours are personal and private. You feel the need to aggravate half of the mudcat community with your new never ending thread preaching. Like I said if it is so important to you .. go knock on doors. I would say the same thing if one of the other believers in God did what you keep doing ... IE preaching about their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 11:37 PM

I would expect people to get mad at me if I started an pocket watch Elgin thread, then a hamilton thread, then a waltham thread, and a howard thread, and a omega thread all saying the exact same f'in thing. so people have to jump over a dozen of them every time they want to find out how Spaw is doing or Kendall or anything else. Pick a thread, have at it instead of driving everyone nuts. Then we can all jump over it and read what we really want to read

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,musket without sans
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:25 AM

All the threads on pocket watches wind me up.

(Sorry. Couldn't help it)

The relevance to this thread escapes me though. Forgive me if I am wrong but this thread is about Sheffield Wednesday. Ok. It is about how rational normal people get fed up of other otherwise normal people putting them in a box so they can compare them with their own hobby. The more some people try to stifle the debate the more their stance is shown for what it is. Religion is a jealous Creed and the moment you questioniit the more the victim mentality comes through.

BBC Question Time last night was a point in case. A questioner said that as a few thousand people had signed a petition against gay marriage on religious grounds the government had to drop the bill. It was pointed out that in the room of 200 people he was in a very small minority. That made him angry. Angry that God was subject to democracy. Sadly his supporters included a cabinet minister. The defence secretary of all people. But not the ex cabinet minister who was gay and an ex vicar for that matter.

Straw men? A minister of the realm and a sad young man with unkempt hair and an attitude join together to wish to coerce people using religion as their tool?

I'm off to buy some 4x2 and a bag of nails. Get as many as I can before its too late. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:36 AM

I don't take issue with religion at all, apart from where it impacts massively on the world in extremely evil ways. Islam, Catholicism and Judaism can all go to hell. Buddhism and Wicca not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 13 - 05:26 AM

Olddude, the answer is really, really simple. Don't open the bloody thread. Hope this helps.

Joe, no-one is asking you to defend your individual actions. In your earlier post you wished that you didn't have to defend your religion. Well, I might go to bed thinking about Marilyn Monroe every night. How would you know? But you'd be bloody annoyed if I stuck Marilyn Monroe posters and statues up all over your town and tried to force the schoolkids to learn her life story. Your religion gets everywhere, whether you like it or not, so I'm saying it had better be good. That's what I mean by saying you don't necessarily get to be left alone. That's what religion has demanded for itself (sometimes under pain of death) for millennia. It's now time for religion's adherents to do some staunch defending. When you think about it, it would be one good way of making religion a lot better.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:07 AM

Interesting perspective at the Huffington Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:15 AM

That is excellent. Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: John P
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:56 AM

Olddude, you don't seem to understand that attitudes like yours are why some atheists get sore. Apparently we do need more atheist threads, and more, and more, until you and your ilk figure out that atheism isn't a religion, isn't a belief system, isn't being forced on anyone, isn't even usually talked about until someone launches a religious attack on us or advocates making laws that don't line up with the First Amendment.

keep your Gospel private as I do mine.

Bullshit asshole speech. Saying this, after everything that's been said on the subject, is an attack. Get a clue.

The the rest of us don't have to wade through your preaching

More bullshit asshole speech, and, as Steve has noted, no one is forcing you to read.

and I won't talk about my religious beliefs if you don't talk about yours

More bullshit asshole speech, and you DO talk about your religion a lot, usually in a way that is a put-down of anyone who doesn't share it.

I would say the same thing if one of the other believers in God did what you keep doing ... IE preaching about their beliefs.

But you don't. In fact, you started one of the threads and have been one of the biggest puerile jerks toward atheists in all of them. Here's the deal: you don't get to go around being an asshole toward people and then expect them to be polite to you. You don't get to tell them to shut up and go away while you are saying rude things. Until you learn to speak politely to people who don't share your beliefs, you can expect to called on it. And, after a certain point that you reached some time back, you can expect them to stop being polite themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: John P
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:44 AM

I should add that there has been a fair bit of asshole behavior from atheists as well. Calling someone a "god botherer", while sort of funny, is rude. Bringing rapist priests and the history of religious intolerance and violence into every discussion of religion is not only rude but really stupid. People get to believe whatever they like, and the only time the rest of us get to talk negatively about them is when they attack people who don't share their beliefs or when they advocate making of laws that are based on religion. In other words, there's no reason to kick people unless they're stepping on your toes, and then you only get to kick them enough to get them off your toes.

Part of the problem, of course, is that many of the religious people are so smugly self-centered that they don't even realize how rude they are being, so trying to get them to stop looks like an attack to them. By "smugly self-centered" I mean that many people seem to think that being religious is the only normal way to live one's life, and that anyone who doesn't share their beliefs is weird and alien.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 May 13 - 12:33 PM

Hey! A Marilyn Monroe religion. May rival the Great Pumpkin.

Come Fall, the Great Pumpkin will deliver his seeds. In the seeds is the Word.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:13 PM

By "smugly self-centered" I mean that many people seem to think that being religious is the only normal way to live one's life

Exactly. I don't especially feel like being shouted down by people who assume that religion is the correct default position of society, then get told I'm rude and abusive to Christians when I inform them that that they are plain wrong and they should, instead, keep it entirely to themselves. Including away from children.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:56 PM

John P: "Bringing rapist priests and the history of religious intolerance and violence into every discussion of religion is not only rude but really stupid."

Do you actually think that? Because I find it incredible that you would think that these huge issues are not relevant.

]It's essentially saying, "bringing all the incredibly bad things that religion has caused into every discussion about religion is not only rude, but really stupid."]

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: John P
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:33 PM

CS, these topics are relevant to discussions about these topics. Occasionally they become relevant to other discussions. These are important topics that ought to be discussed. But when they are thrown in the face the Christians in every single thread about religion or atheism, it starts to look like someone is changing the subject in order to conduct an attack. How do these topics relate to a discussion of someone's faith? How do they relate to a discussion of whether or not atheism is a belief system? Why should perfectly normal people who happen to be Christians have to answer for the crimes of other people? And yes, it really does appear that some people think the Christians should answer for them. They act like by bringing up the Spanish Inquisition they have scored some point against the religious folks, like these crimes are relevant to any and all religious discussions. From a purely selfish standpoint, I get tired of trying to have conversations when other people are lobbing bombs into them. It makes the conversation a good deal less meaningful and fun, and distracts everyone from the subject at hand.

Yes, I was essentially saying that "bringing all the incredibly bad things that religion has caused into every discussion about religion is not only rude, but really stupid." Save it for when it means something. And don't attack people simply for being Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 13 - 12:51 AM

So, here's what CS says, in answer to John P:

John P: "Bringing rapist priests and the history of religious intolerance and violence into every discussion of religion is not only rude but really stupid."

Do you actually think that? Because I find it incredible that you would think that these huge issues are not relevant.

]It's essentially saying, "bringing all the incredibly bad things that religion has caused into every discussion about religion is not only rude, but really stupid."]

First, take note that John P does not practice a religion, but he does seem to be very balanced in his approach. Since I'm Catholic, I am constantly held to task in this forum for the molester priests and Magdalene Laundries and the inquisition and bishops opposing gay marriage and anti-condom prejudice and all sorts of other things that some people in the Catholic Church are guilty of - even though the vast majority of Catholics do not support such things. So, yeah, I am constantly challenged to defend my church for these offenses - offenses for which there is no defense. As a matter of fact, I have fought against these offenses all my life. I consider these offenses to be abhorrent, and not to be part of the legitimate practice of religion.

But lots of people go to church, and some of them are likely to be criminals - and their fellow church-goers should not be held to answer for their crimes unless they have participated in or encouraged those crimes. When I lived in the city, I had a number of neighbors who committed crimes - should I be held to answer for their misdeeds?

If you want to discuss a shortcoming in the Catholic Church, I'm happy to discuss it - but don't blame me for it unless I did the deed. And don't tell me what I believe and then then condemn me for it - most likely, that's not what I believe.

Hell, Steve Shaw won't even let me call myself "progressive," despite my peace demonstrations and civil rights marches and social justice work and my having the only Obama bumper sticker in the parish parking lot (and I have one favoring gay marriage, too).

It really distresses me that in recent years I have seen so much intolerance on the part of those who call themselves "liberals." Back In the Day, tolerance was deemed to be one of the major aspects of liberalism, and I could proudly call myself a liberal without anybody trying to push me out the door because of my religious beliefs. No more, I guess. Now liberals want to grow up to be bigots, too.

-Joe Offer-

P.S. Oh, and Steve - I'm a really, really big fan of Marilyn Monroe. Are you going to try to say that's not allowed because I'm Catholic?

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:59 AM

well said john.construtive comments.i have sometimes posted on crimes and atrocities by atheists, but i think always in response to the tactics you describe.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:40 AM

Joe, all that would be well and good if Christians didn't leave it at that. They make foolish remarks about non-belief is a religion which is Orwellian to say the least.

Again and again, if Christians really believed in what they say they do, then it wouldn't matter how much criticism they receive and they would curb their self-righteous pompous arrogance.

I have seen more intolerance on the part of those who consider themselves religious than I ever have found in the atheist community.

It's true, however, that criminality isn't confined to one point of view over another.

Intolerance in one person' book just might be a justifiable criticism of religiosity when it attacks atheists, which you can't deny, happens more than not. Just look at the reactions of some of the religious bullies on Mudcat. They complain because they want to shut up those who have a negative position on religion whereas the give themselves the right to attack atheists with impunity.

BTW, any pseudo phony psychological appraisal of atheists as a general class is specious.
Not all Catholics are alike nor are all atheists.

Again, I use the term atheist when I feel that religious people are attacking me for my non-belief. I don't think it's the best term. I prefer FreeThinker.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 May 13 - 11:01 AM

"I like living a life filled with mystery and awe and wonder. I hope I never lose my habit of gazing and something wonderful and not being able to say more than simply, "Oh, wow!"

You don't have to be religious to do this Joe. Fine non-believing scientists say this all the time. It just doesn't require a god to have this experience. Scientists are more able to do this because they are constantly in exploration through reality channels.



"I agree with you, Joe. I think the song says enough that it should bring an end to just about any disagreement on the subject."

No it won't, Ebbie. It resolves nothing but avoids the discussion of the issue.

"I know what you mean, Steve Shaw, but I disagree; to me DeMent is clearly shrugging when she says that. She just chooses not to make it an issue."

There is no virtue in that. It may not be an issue for her. For others, it may well be an important issue particularly when it engenders vituperative and violent responses by those who claim to be religious and try to do a number on atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 May 13 - 11:07 AM

""Bringing rapist priests and the history of religious intolerance and violence into every discussion of religion is not only rude but really stupid.""

As rude and stupid as quoting Leviticus on homosexuality?

It's a two way street.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket on a Saturday
Date: 18 May 13 - 12:46 PM

Hey Joe!

Fair enough. However, saying the vast majority of Catholics don't support anti gay marriage or condom restrictions etc is somewhat confusing. If the vast majority of an organisation think something is wrong, then change it. Simple .

John. I use the term god botherer and I use it a lot. It adequately describes those who run down the batteries on my door bell and describes those whom wish to inflict religious clauses into legislation. It is a term of ridicule and is used to denote that I don't recognise their aims whilst concerned that ther aims are for their hobby to affect me.

I love to enjoy and when I can even celebrate the altruism and dedicated commitment to helping others that I see in so many people. Only last night I was at an awards ceremony where people who go that extra mile to help others were recognised and admired for their good deeds. Many were reluctant to be feted and some were happy that the work they do, as opposed to them themselves was recognised. But the common link was doing good for goodness sake. So refreshing to spend a night hearing of good deeds with no reference to a higher cause forcing them, or saying it is their duty as a Christian, Muslim, hindu, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:08 PM

Well, Musket, there's no provision for voting on the teachings of the Catholic Church - and I'm not sure I'd like to have non-theologians vote on theological issues, anyhow. My friend the Lutheran pastor says their method of voting on doctrine gets really weird at times. What usually happens in the Catholic Church is that with teachings that don't work, people just start ignoring them. And then a century after the unworkable teaching is forgotten, it's abolished. Limbo went away a little quicker. It was something that was taught into the 1960s, and then was forgotten. A couple of years ago, Pope Benedict said it didn't exist. The right-wingers in the Catholic Church are making a last stand on gay marriage, but most Catholics just don't care if gays get married or not. Surveys show that 98 percent of American Catholics ignore the Catholic Church's restrictions on birth control. Most likely, other places will follow that trend.

And while the rules may be on the books, most of the controversial topics are rarely spoken of from the pulpit - which means they're probably not as important as critics seem to think they are. Yeah, some parishes have "natural family planning" classes to present rhythm as an alternative to birth control, but these really aren't pushed very hard. And yes, the Catholic bishops in California put money into the Proposition 8 attempt to prohibit gay marriage, but it appears that gay marriage will become legal in California any day now. And I have only once heard a negative word about homosexuality in a sermon - that was from a rather right-wing deacon, and he got a tongue-lashing from the pastor.

My local and national governments have lots of laws on the books that I don't favor, and so I work to change them with the realization that I will not be 100% successful. Same with any institution - not every aspect will be favorable to me, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I can't live and prosper within the structure of the organization.

Stringsinger, my statement about the song "Let the Mystery Be" (Iris DeMent) was that the song expresses what I feel about things, that it's good to be able to enjoy the mystery of things and not argue about them or over-analyze them. I think we ALL should be able to drop the constant arguments and look for things that unite us. Whether or not we're religious, you and I and even Steve Shaw should all be able to look together at a flower and simply enjoy the beauty of it.

In the "Militant Atheism" thread, Stim brought up Edie Brickell's song, "What I Am" to counter what I said about the DeMent song, but "What I Am" also speaks very strongly to me. I find that here at Mudcat, too often I'm forced to whimper, "but I'm not like that," when I'm being condemned for the Spanish Inquisition and molesting priests and the Magdalene Laundries. "What I am is What I am" - don't go blaming me for all that shit unless you hear me supporting it.

The basis of bigotry, is blaming all members of a group for the actions of a few. Mudcat is full of that sort of bigotry. In an ideal discussion forum, people would address the substance of what other people have said. Do we do that here as much as we should, or do we rely too much on labels and bigotry?

And on the topic of this thread and the militant atheism thread, perhaps the idea is that certain militant or strident atheists have recently been guilty of some of the more obnoxious traits of religions - intolerance and exclusion, and making money by playing on the intolerance and fear that people have of groups other than themselves. Strident atheism can be every bit as strident and obnoxious as strident religion - and it's the stridency and obnoxiousness we should criticize, not the religion or atheism.

Let's all go out and look at flowers this lovely spring day, and together enjoy the mystery of beauty that they bring to us.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 13 - 08:27 PM

you and I and even Steve Shaw should all be able to look together at a flower and simply enjoy the beauty of it.

This looks good and harmonious until you delve a little more. I saw a programme about Richard Feynman the other evening and they had him saying this (this is verbatim):

"I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts."

Of course you can "simply" enjoy the beauty of a flower. If you like, you can marvel at this perfect creation of your God. But why let your intellect stop running there? You don't need God. You need curiosity and study and scholarship, executed to the best of your mind's abilities. You'll find a lot more beauty in that flower that way than you ever imagined possible. That's what some of us strident atheists are trying to tell you. All without having to praise God for making it (which, of course, he didn't). God, to reinterpret Feynman, may not subtract, but he sure stops you from adding.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:01 AM

>>You don't need God. You need curiosity and study and scholarship, executed to the best of your mind's abilities. You'll find a lot more beauty in that flower that way than you ever imagined possible.<<

The point I have been making is not that strident atheist/non-believers, whatever are religionists, I'm just saying that some of them are every bit as irritating and have the same bad habits as those they condemn.

For example look at the preaching and condescension in the above.

There is a lot of evidence that the three most dogmatic and evangelical people on this forum are atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:35 AM

I dunno, that Steve Shaw still sounds pretty darn much like an evangelical atheist to me.

He assumes that since I'm Catholic and I like flowers, I must not have studied botany.

Harumpf!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:41 AM

Amen to that brother! zzzzzz. Thought he had gone quiet. Ah well.

Joe. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I know that democracy and doctrine don't go hand in hand but someone decides what parts of Scripture are silly or embarrassing and those parts adherents should observe. Is it too radical to open the question up to those who are affected by it? National elections in government are based on asking those affected what they wish to be bound by so why not faith if it shapes you and your life?

Religions speak of moving with the times to remain relevant. Some become coercive whilst others reinvent themselves. My concern based on what I see and hear is that if people feel fulfilled without it they don't crave it despite peer pressure. Tobacco and recreational drugs have an affinity with religions on that score.

Surely there is more to it than that? Rhetorical question really because the more I see around me the more I am convinced that whatever the fulfilling role faith has it begins with either peer pressure or vulnerability.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:26 AM

Hi, Musket -the "canon" of Scripture was more-or-less set by general acceptance by 150 AD, and officially accepted in the 300s. Many people here have questioned why other writings such as the gnostic gospels were not accepted into scripture. Most of the gnostic writings were newer, maybe 150-200 AD. The decision was based mostly on what people used among the religious writings of the time. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of a plan for what should and should not be accepted as Scripture.
There's lots of embarrassing stuff left in the bible, so I don't think that "bad stuff" was intentionally edited out. Some of the Hebrew
Scriptures, particularly Genesis, show signs of heavy editing. As centuries passed, people added their own stories and customs. I think it might be most accurate to say that the Scriptures went through the
Folk Process, not through heavy, intentional editing.

Steve Shaw, despite your preconceived notions about what and how I believe, my faith really doesn't work that way - and it certainly doesn't impair my ability to study the science of things. My faith give me joy - that's why it's part of my life. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine - but let me have my joy, unmolested.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:58 AM

I'm something of a neutral in this discussion, believing in some form of deity, but emphatically not believing in any of the organised religions with their agenda of thought control.

I think we ought all to be able to accept that Joe is sincere in his faith and not responsible for the past, present, or future actions of the lunatic or criminal fringes of the Catholic Church.

In many ways this is a non discussion.

It is, or should be self evident that non belief cannot be be a belief system.

The constant bickering and mud slinging both between believers and non believers, and also between believers in different faiths, is the major reason for my having ditched the bloody lot as soon as I was clear of the influence of my grammar school teachers.

There is only one human race and we are all stuck on the same ball of dirt floating through space, and instead of getting together to ensure that this existence continues, we actively seek and manufacture methods to divide us into spitting, swearing, warring factions.

How bloody stupid is that?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:31 AM

Steve Shaw, despite your preconceived notions about what and how I believe, my faith really doesn't work that way

The only notions I have about what and how you believe are what you tell me.

and it certainly doesn't impair my ability to study the science of things.

Well I think you may be wrong about that. Do you believe that God creates things? Started everything off? That he's the guiding light behind the laws of the universe? A force that ramifies through everything? The spirit that breathes life? If so, I think your ability to see nature for what it really is is seriously impaired. If you see that beautiful flower and even think of thanking God for it, you're seeing things all wrong. But if it gives you joy, so be it.

My faith gives me joy

Maybe so. But no faith can trump edification and joy through knowledge. And knowledge takes endeavour and hard work to achieve, never achieved by having it poured over you, unlike accident-of-birth faith.

The life so short,
the craft so long to learn,
Th' assay so hard,
so sharp the conquering.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:34 AM

I dunno, that Steve Shaw still sounds pretty darn much like an evangelical atheist to me.

Evangelical? Well I don't start threads about it and all I ever do is respond to what people say. Show me an evangelist that operates that way, please!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:18 AM

Ya' wanna' know why atheism has become strident?

Religious bullies

Sure, non-belief is irritating to religious bullies.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:35 AM

Joe, being "impolite" is not defaming you in any way personally. There is no reason that religion should be treated any differently than political or social views. Remember that in the South, desegregation was considered to be "impolite". Women were subject to that label for wanting to exercise their political rights. Corporate CEOS think "liberals" are impolite for challenging their ideas of the pseudo-free market.

One's faith is one's own business until it becomes other people's business. Then to refute it is "impolite".

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:18 PM

The problem with religion is that people inculcate their own beliefs in their children, both at home and by sending them to church and separate schools.

Here in Alberta, two main separate school systems exist, one public and one Catholic; both funded by public money.
In the States, at least, separate schools are largely funded by those using them, a little better.

Children are separated in their learning and activities. They are not free to develop their own views .

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:34 PM

Aye but try saying there is no such thing as a Christian child and watch the buggers spring from the woodwork.

Catch em young.

As ever, I boast about two things.

1. My ability (fading) to drink 7 pints before needing a pee.

2. Tried with what I consider success to teach my boys how to think not what to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:35 PM

Why don't you religionists police your denominations instead of wasting time going after atheists? We are faced in this country today with a Christian Taliban with people of "faith" who are as misogynistic, cruel and violent in the name of Jesus as they are in the Mid-East.

Stop trying to demonize atheists by insisting that they are bigots or dogmatic and go after the reprehensible clerics, priests, imams, rabbis in your own religions.

Fortunately, there are some Christians et. al. who do care about their "faith" cleaning up their act. But not enough. This same criticism leveled at Islam can be said for Christians.

You wonder why atheism is strident? Look no further from the reprehensible acts of members of your religious denominations.

You can choose to keep your head in the sand and ignore and excuse this behavior and watch atheism grow as a movement for peace and justice. You call this evangelical,
I call it an appeal to justice and civil rights.

Also, you can use a familiar canard, "religion doesn't kill people, people kill people."

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:39 PM

When I say "your own religions" I mean to exclude non-belief as a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:27 PM

Separate schools are part of the "catch 'em young" operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:06 PM

Why don't you religionists police your denominations instead of wasting time going after atheists? We are faced in this country today with a Christian Taliban with people of "faith" who are as misogynistic, cruel and violent in the name of Jesus as they are in the Mid-East.

Stop trying to demonize atheists by insisting that they are bigots or dogmatic and go after the reprehensible clerics, priests, imams, rabbis in your own religions.

Fortunately, there are some Christians et. al. who do care about their "faith" cleaning up their act. But not enough. This same criticism leveled at Islam can be said for Christians.

Well said, Frank!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:44 PM

Stringsinger says (and SRS repeats):

Why don't you religionists police your denominations instead of wasting time going after atheists? We are faced in this country today with a Christian Taliban with people of "faith" who are as misogynistic, cruel and violent in the name of Jesus as they are in the Mid-East.

Stop trying to demonize atheists by insisting that they are bigots or dogmatic and go after the reprehensible clerics, priests, imams, rabbis in your own religions.

I can't do anything about them, Frank - despite the fact that I despise their misconduct. They're your neighbors and your fellow Americans. Why don't you do something about them? Why don't you control what they think and what they say and what they do?

Because you can't.

And neither can I.

And if you blame me for their misconduct, then I think that's just about a perfect fit with the definition of bigotry.

C'mon, Frank. Use some logic. How is it that I'm supposed to be able to control these people any better than you can? How is it that I should have more of an obligation to control these people than you have?

I understand why you despise them. I despise them, too. Your bigotry is not in your being annoyed by these hateful and obnoxious people. Your bigotry is in blaming me and other believers for the conduct of people we have no ability to control.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 13 - 07:59 PM

Oh, but you do have the control. You can leave the club. I've listened to you complaining about all the wrongs of your club. But you're still in it. That's what gives succour to to the bigots in your club. That decent people like you are right in there with them. You are their veneer of decency. You are the reason they'll prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:53 PM

Yes, Steve, I can leave the club. The trouble is, the Catholic Church is MY club, part of who I am. I find the Presence of God within that Catholic Church, flawed though that church may be. So, I should leave is simply because you think I should?

And would my leaving the Catholic Church stop certain Catholics from being unjust and obnoxious and molesting children and whatever else you find atrocious? And mind you, I also find those things atrocious.

Do you move out of the neighborhood every time you don't like the neighbors?

But, as we've said in discussing the Edie Brickell song earlier in these threads, "What I am is What I am." I am not your conception of me. I am not your conception of the Catholic Church. My faith is not what you conceive to be faith. And my conception of God, is not your conception of God - in fact, there's a good chance that my conception of God is the exact opposite of what you conceive.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 13 - 07:09 AM

So, I should leave is simply because you think I should?

Did I say that? Really, there's no need to join the pete 'n' Jack misrepresentation brigade, you know.

OK, so you stay in. But where's the fight from within? You think that sitting there quietly disobeying the rules you don't care for is a fight? What does that do for the millions of women in Africa and Latin America who get no choice in the matter? Where's your fight for them? Where was the fight from within when Mother Teresa was telling the poorest people in the world not to fight their poverty? If there's a big fight going on in the Catholic church about contraception, gay marriage, poverty, etc., well where are the signs of it for us to see?

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 May 13 - 10:36 AM

"C'mon, Frank. Use some logic. How is it that I'm supposed to be able to control these people any better than you can? How is it that I should have more of an obligation to control these people than you have?"

Joe, I don't blame you for your faith or attitude. Here is an answer to your question. You can stand up and criticize the role your Church has played over the decades and speak out if you are sincere. The sexual molestation of children, the subjugation of women by a male hierarchy, the authoritarian edicts of the Popes, the denunciation of those who don't agree with the principles of the Church, the unnatural human demands put upon priests and nuns sexuality, the denunciation by the Popes of "Liberation Theology", a bad precedent, and not be afraid to take a moral stand in defense of what you believe and not allow it to be corrupted by an institution that has lost its way. Contraception and abortion may be areas in which people are entitled to disagree but to accept a blanket condemnation by those who don't agree it a form of religious bigotry and bullying.

What do you really believe Joe? And why do you believe it?

I have respect for Dorothy Day, Ammon Hennessey and others (not Mother Theresa)
for their interpretation of Catholicism. I also respect the actions of the recent nuns who were incarcerated for taking a moral stand in going after nuke weapons. So I am not totally critical of all actions by religious or Catholic people. The Berrigans were heroes to me.

You can do something about it if you want. Speak out! That is logical.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 May 13 - 11:03 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver - PM
Date: 20 May 13 - 08:19 AM

"I must admit I find all this personal stuff a tad specious. I don't come here to judge or be judged, much less 'understood' - stick to the topic, chaps."

Thanks Blandiver. You are so right. This isn't about personal issues.

Joe, Martin Luther King and Ghandi were both called "impolite" in their day. Sometimes, to take a moral stand, you have to be thought of as being "impolite" and to judge certain ideas to be specious. The great movers and shakers of democracy were also accused of being "impolite" and "irritating".

I'll say it again, it's not meant to be personal unless it's taken it that way. This is an examination of ideas, not personalities. Some ideas just suck.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:31 PM

There are a lot of things a moderte could do.

In Canada, work against the separate (RC) schools by opposing their taxpayer funding. With their influence from local primates and organizations like the Newman Club, and the Canadian Catholic students Assn., their teachings oppose much of recent scientific findings.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:52 PM

Just received an hilarious leaflet c/o SPUC through my letter box proclaiming the collapse of the known universe if the government legalise Same Sex marriage. There really ought to be a law to the effect that Free Speech does not mean the freedom to promote such hateful propaganda in the suppression of actual hard won freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:03 PM

Actually, Blandiver, the Free Speech violation that you mention does fall into the category of "yelling fire in a crowded theater." Unfortunately, the First Amendment, as you know, has been trounced upon by the Limbaughs, Santillis, Hannitys, and other Wing Nuts who for some reason are allowed spew their hatred on the air waves while dissenters and gay rights advocates are censored. The problem with laws in the US is that at the convenience of the power brokers, (corporate owned media stooges), these laws are ignored or repealed.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:12 PM

Thanks Blandiver. You are so right. This isn't about personal issues.

Too true! But it gets personal pretty quick around here. Jack the Sailor even opened a thread trying to 'get to know me' FFS - I humoured it, but really ought to have told him to feck off. Too polite! This is not what we're here for. Others have similar tactics - gets a bit cloying & awkward, you end up feeling embarrassed just for posting - as I did with the the 'getting to know you' thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:12 PM

I suspect, Stringsinger (love that name!), that Joe O. is doing from withIN what you do from withOUT. More, actually, because his is a constant effort; from what I am aware of, you don't have as big a venue. To me, that implies that what Joe does has, and will have, a bigger impact than you in both the short term and long term. A believer who criticizes AND has constructive comments may have more validity than a nonbeliever who never took any stock in it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 13 - 06:04 PM

But by their fruits shall we know them, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 13 - 08:54 PM

There ya go, Steve. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 13 - 03:07 AM

So, Frank, you want to know what I believe?

Well, I don't believe in proselytizing. My faith is sacred and precious to me, and I don't want to argue about it - and I'd never dream of forcing it on somebody who doesn't want it. You'll find many believers who study "apologetics" so they can defend what they believe, but that's a closed-fist, legalistic approach to faith that makes my stomach churn - very often, I think that these "apologists" don't really have a clue what faith is, either. I prefer to just be who I am, and not defend myself. I believe that people who have faith, receive it as a gift - and that people who do not have faith (and that includes a whole hell of a lot of "religious" people) cannot fathom what this faith thing is all about. So, I can't preach or explain my faith. All I can do is live it, and maybe people will see that my living a life a faith makes sense.

I believe in social justice, and I work probably 40 hours a week in social justice causes - working at a respite center for women in poverty, working with homeless people, and working for a more humane and effective criminal justice system in California. I work primarily through what you might call "faith-based" organizations (because I am a "faith-based" person), but these organizations never preach and are open to a broad spectrum of people - anyone can volunteer, and anyone can receive services.

I don't believe in Management, and I particularly don't believe in Upper Management. Management is necessary in an institution, but it is rarely the seat of wisdom or effectiveness in the institution. I work with Management when I have to, but always warily. And I am particularly wary of Upper Management in the Catholic Church. I am an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy, and I have worked for the IBVM (Loretto) Sisters and the Sisters of Social Service. Those orders are members of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, which is being investigated for paying too much attention to social justice and to little to issues like abortion and fighting gay marriage. Sisters of these orders were part of the Nuns on the Bus campaign, led by Sister Simone Campbell of the Sisters of Social Service.

But if you find what's good about a group of people, don't look to its leaders - look to the people who do the work. And the people I work with, are marvelously effective in handling the social ills of our society that the taxpayers are too tight-fisted to pay to resolve.

Please take good note that I fully believe that atheists do all sorts of wonderful things, in social justice and everything else that matters in this world. I have never once said that religious people are better or more moral that non-religious people. They live in different contexts, whichever is meaningful for them.

I live in a religious context. That is who I am, and I like living in that context.

I fully acknowledge all the bad that is and has been done in the name of religion. There's bad there, no doubt about it; but hey, there's bad everywhere. People condemn me because they say I should be out there fighting all those bad guys every minute of my life, but you know what? I've found that it does very little good to fight bad guys. I get that all the time in my jail reform work. People condemn me for "siding with the bad guys" when I campaign for education and drug and alcohol treatment and job training for jail and prison inmates "who don't deserve to be treated well after all the horrible things they've done." Well, if you give those inmates a chance when they're released after a too-long prison sentence, maybe they'll get a job and settle down and make something of themselves. And I've worked with convicts enough, that I've taken a liking to many of them.

And take a look at all those issues. In any society, there is disagreement on issues, and the disagreement has to stew for some time before the issues are resolved. The issue of contraception has just about wasted itself away, although it raises its head once in a while. Homosexuality and homosexual marriage have come into discussion much more recently, and those issues are still stewing. There seems to be more progress on the political scene, but there is more progress in the religious context than you might suspect - but the issue is still stewing. Hearts and minds are changing, but slowly - if you try to fight those hearts and minds while they're in the midst of changing, you'll set them back decades.

The issue of molester priests has more-or-less been resolved in the U.S., and it is on its way to resolution in Europe. It's just beginning to be acknowledged in the Catholic Church in Africa, so there will be more scandals. And it's still a matter that is simply not understood by anybody - nobody has answers, so the only thing being done is the imposition of heavy restrictions and heavy penalties for misconduct. That's a start, but we really need to learn what causes our epidemic of child molestation in all aspects of society, and we need to learn how to stop it.

Oh, and the Spanish Inquisition? It's a dead issue. Nobody defends the Inquisition, so there's no reason to condemn anybody for it. All those people who should be condemned for it, have been dead for centuries. Get over it.

There's only so much that can be done to "fight" things. Far more effective, to my mind, is to work in positive ways to better the lot of people in need. Far better to offer "good" alternatives, rather than to fight evil.

And as for faith, believers believe what they believe, and it's sacred to them. And Frank and Steve, what I'm calling "impolite" is attacking people for what they believe - both of you have done it, continually. Don't try to refute what they believe - it's part of them, and it really isn't doing you any harm if they don't think the way you do. If they do actual harm, that's another matter; but that's really not often the case. Yeah, it happens - but not nearly so often as the screamers would have you think. So, leave them alone.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:01 AM

""You can do something about it if you want. Speak out! That is logical.""

Really Frank? Speak out?

It was you that psted that link to what happens to those who speak out against the fundies in Joe's neck of the woods.

Trying to persuade him to lay himself open to that kind of misery is at best unkind, at worst somewhat loony.

Would you do that yourself?

I doubt it, and neither would I. Individuals cannot prevail. What is required is a grass roots uprising and that is almost impossible to achieve.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:17 AM

Wait! Wait!!

What happens to us who speak out against fundies in my neck of the woods? Where's that link?

I do remember once when I said something nice about Obamacare in the barber shop. Everything went silent, but I swear I could hear the "click" of guns being cocked....

The barber was cool about it, though. He's a friend of mine.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:05 AM

I wasn't spinning that tight a loop Joe.

Your neck of the woods in this case referred to the US of A in its entirety.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 13 - 09:10 AM

And Frank and Steve, what I'm calling "impolite" is attacking people for what they believe - both of you have done it, continually.

I think you've got that wrong. We certainly attack your belief system, because it is deluded and it has done much harm on this planet. That is not in any way to say that every adherent of your belief system has done harm or sets out to do harm. Far from it. But you often give the impression that the critical side of your consciousness has not been raised anywhere near enough. Whilst acknowledging that you have done a lot of good in your community, and show your own children how to be open-minded, in the big world of religious faith you are in a small minority. Yet your leave-us-alone mantra seems unshakeable, and that's worrying. You and people like you might fully deserve to be left alone. An awful lot more believers, though, have got a lot to answer for, and many of them are in the mainstream, not just on the lunatic fringe. and if the questioning seems impolite that's only because religion has, for millennia, set its face against ever accepting criticism. It's very unhealthy, and, if your faith is as sound as you say, you should be able to shrug us off - intellectually, preferably.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 13 - 09:54 AM

We don't attack people for what they believe.

We do however, criticize those beliefs systems.



An attack on us personally might be construed as an attempt to classify our non-beliefs as a religion and is "impolite" if we follow that logic. Religious ideas are not sacrosanct and above scrutiny for their efficacy or reality. Non-religious ideas as well.

If non-belief is held up to scrutiny by zealous religionists, than we who are forced into calling ourselves atheists have the same right to scrutinize religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 13 - 09:59 AM

Joe, despite the word wrangling over "impolite" I have to say that you and I are on the same page in our social outlook.

I think that our system of government is broken and unfortunately religion as well as politics plays a role in this. I'm not blaming you for that. You're a good guy and I respect that.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:07 AM

"But Don, if some people want to hold onto a literal view of the biblical creation story, does it really matter?"

Yes, it matters greatly, Joe. People are still being persecuted by violence and ugliness by those who question the legitimacy of the bible. Religion is being forced fed in small towns that allow prayer meetings in government buildings in violation of the First Amendment of the US Constitution. Also, scientists are being denigrated by these so-called creationists who arrogantly claim they have the answers to life's conundrums and all people have to do is believe. This is errant BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:10 AM

On top of that, literal readings (or, more correctly, misreadings) of the Qurʼan have misled millions of Muslims down a very wrong path. Misreadings of religious texts which are then acted upon are dangerous, as we have seen to our cost. Religion has no right to avoid scrutiny, from outside as well as from within. I wish it didn't have to be true, but religion affects everyone, adherents or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:19 AM

If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again.

― Penn Gilette, God, No!: Signs You May Already Be an Atheist and Other Magical Tales

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:35 AM

I've just had a déjà vu.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 13 - 08:32 PM

Again?

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:29 AM

According to Les Barker, the first time we experience deja vu is the second.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:41 AM

Oh no!!! Here they are again don wxy.. musket and the nautical fraud jerk the sailior et al..with their half baked theories on something they obviesly know the square root of zilch.I there no end to their smug buffoonery?

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:12 AM

Concerned speaks my name in vain?

Fuck off, there's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:38 AM

May I add my voice to Musket's.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:38 AM

"What is required is a grass roots uprising and that is almost impossible to achieve."

Don, it is being achieved. It grows daily. Secularism is on the rise.

What I asked Joe to do was to speak out to his fellow Catholics. Other Catholics are doing this. I think that Muslims should speak out to other Muslims, etc.

Fortunately, there are Israeli Jews who are speaking out against the misuse of Zionism.

Would I speak out? I have no religious affiliation to speak out to. I do speak out when I perceive injustice, however. I'm speaking out here.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,musket without sans
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:09 PM

http://www.salon.com/2013/05/22/tornado_survivor_to_wolf_blitzer_sorry_im_an_atheist_i_dont_have_to_thank_the_lord/

Sorry. On mobile so can't make a blue link.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:27 PM

One would sincerely hope that anyone thanking the Lord for surviving a tornado would simultaneously be bitterly critical of him for letting loads of other people, including children, suffer a terrible death, and, indeed, for sending the bloody tornado in the first place. I mean, had he not sent it they wouldn't have to be grovelling around thanking him for surviving it.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:18 PM

Oh, Frank, my fellow Catholics consider me to be very outspoken...

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 May 13 - 10:49 AM

Good Joe, keep talking to them. Maybe they'll become rational.

Joe, I like what this pope said about "meeting in the middle".

BTW everyone, Dawkins says that Science is not a Religion. Otherwise it would be
easier to get funding.

Maybe everyone should thank the lord for global warming. That's one for the deniers.

So instead of this intolerant "impolite" behavior suggesting that atheists are religious fanatics, the religionists should examine their own religions for these autocratic accusations. Their evangelism and dogma are impolite to say the least to non-believers.

BTW, Joseph Stalin spent five earlier years in a Eastern Orthodox seminary. That's where he learned to be god. ( Some atheist!)

Apparently Obama, as much as he denies it, thinks that his god condones torture.
How about a good Christian prison such as Gitmo? Praise the lord and pass the feeding tube!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:04 AM

Well, if nothing else this thread has shown up the foul mouthed lout Musket for the fraud he undoubtedly is.He even outpaces salty imposter Seaman Staynes.

It would be easy for me to answer you back in kind Brother Musket, but I am now a born again christian who has just returned from a religouse retreat. Being in a state of grace I can now forgive you.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:50 AM

Im not a loud mouthed lout. I'm Mr loud mouthed lout to you.

Mind you I am a fraud. 10 out of 10 for that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:30 AM

I didnt say "loud" I said "Foul"..but by the sound of you and some of your self opiniated posts, I guess both words well suit you.



Altogether a thoroughly unpleasent cretin you seem to me.There again, on reflection, you and Seaman Staynes could head an orderly queue of no nothing, smug, self - opiniated dolts on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:56 AM

Oh, by the way dear heart:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------













FUCK OF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON.!!

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 25 May 13 - 03:34 PM

Fuck of what?

Ignorant sod.

Anyway I just got a pm from someone saying who you are, ,allegedly.

Best not mention small boys and key workers then eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 13 - 03:42 PM

Musket, don't let "concerened" waylay what has been a reasonably relatively civil and interesting discussion.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:31 PM

Joe, looks like Pope Francis has given us FreeThinkers some slack. That's a refreshing development. I think at least that he recognizes that strident atheism is not a religion.

A religion requires a set of laws, a holy book and a god. FreeThinkers require none of that and have the right to disagree entirely about how they think among themselves. They are not dogmatic because most of them don't agree on everything. Dogma requires everyone to think alike.

As a FreeThinker, I don't claim to have all the answers about life and can only go on what available legitimate evidence there is. If it turns out that there is a small probability for the existence of a god, and that were verifiable scientifically, I could change my mind. I think most people who call themselves atheists feel the same.
This is not dogma or theology.

The only reason that us FreeThinkers get our backs against the wall and call ourselves atheists is because silly threads like "militant atheism is a religion"
is unreasonable and is a form of attack. Atheists are not "militant" in the dictionary sense. Some are strident because when attacked, they yell louder in pain.

It's not impolite to discuss religion rationally and criticize some of its practices when warranted. Ad hominem remarks are impolite and worse, not constructive.

Professor Dawkins has been unduly attacked by people who have not bothered to really listen to him. He is most civil when dealing with people he doesn't agree with and would be a good model for some of the ad hominem vindictive behavior of some people on this thread. He discusses rationally and some people don't like it who don't agree with him. He's miles apart from the approach of Christopher Hitchens who is generally combative.

If it weren't for the negative history of religion in dealing with "atheists", there would be no problem. People could believe whatever they wanted as long as they left others alone. But when they start to attack and denigrate others, then the war begins.

In the meantime, religion is a subject that should be discussed rationally and disagreements can be met without rancor.

The reason that threads like this keep getting comments is that today, FreeThought is on the rise making it the most potent numbers of people involved in the rejection of religion. Some religious people see this as an attack on their religion but I see this as a potential for human and secular growth.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:30 PM

It seems that one of the most prevalent delusions people have is that they are "Free Thinkers". Present company excepted;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 26 May 13 - 02:50 AM

You are right Joe, but sometimes cathartic you know, putting the bits in place.

This thread is slightly more civil than some although fundamentally frustrating as it gives form to a word called atheism and that will never do. Despite string singer arguing that it shouldn't it nevertheless invites the idea.

There is no word for non stamp collecting. No term of reference for not being able to enjoy opera and nothing describes not wishing to eat celery in a single word.

But there again adherents of the above have nothing to fear from apathy. Tell that to the finance department of religious organisations. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:39 AM

It seems that one of the most prevalent delusions people have is that they are "Free Thinkers".

This statement requires support.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket getting confused as usual
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:44 AM

Mmm. Free thinking. I am blessed, no seriously I am.

Notwithstanding the superstitious interpretation of blessed, I truly am.

You see, my parents were caring and intelligent enough to teach me the barriers, instil a sense of altruism and philanthropy which I strive to uphold, and hae carried this on to my own sons and as of earlier this year I have a grandchild to learn about her place in society.

But the most valuable gift of all was ensuring I didn't feel guilty, didn't feel I had to waste my time carrying out mumbo jumbo each week, and most of all, think as me, not as an old delusioned man in a dog collar.

Free thinking. Don't knock it till you try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Concerened
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:19 PM

Free thinking.?. thinking seems to be a struggle for some ot you people..

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:49 PM

As an alternate: You may think you're open-minded, but that doesn't make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:47 PM

As an alternate: You may think you're open-minded, but that doesn't make it so.

And what, pray, does that alternate with?

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:56 PM

The other.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:18 AM

Boom Boom!

I was expecting a Basil Brush logic to Mr Shaw's rhetorical question and once it appeared thought I'd add the last bit.

Im not open minded. I'm not free thinking. I am open minded. I am free thinking.

Take your choice.

Here's a few bits to help you with the quest you seem fascinated with.

I see no evidence for the literal approach to ancient Scripture so I dismiss it out of hand and treat those who think so as either brain washed delusionists or people with an agenda.

People who use their belief as a metaphor to help them through life are deserving of a pint when I see them in the pub. What ever floats your boat.

Organised religion always has an agenda beyond its membership. I treat with caution and question them when they creep outside their box.

Elephants and microprocessors are mutually exclusive in the observable world. Science and theology are too.

Im a simple lad but this is a simple subject and making it difficult is to betray an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:27 AM

Yeah but I'm incredibly free-thinking about Liverpool whilst you are incredibly closed-minded about Sheffield Wednesday (I felt a little closed-minded about Liverpool Saturday but I was OK again Sunday).

But seriarsely, I think it's best to not pigeonhole oneself when it comes to "thinking". Just say what you're thinking and be damned. All the better if you have a little think before thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans scarf and rattle
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:58 AM

If I had to think before thinking, I wouldn't have time to think about it.

Liverpool fans think Gerrard is the second coming, I know John Sheridan controlled a midfield better than anyone before or since.

I suppose thinking before saying is something people should be aware of before upsetting huge sections of the population on the basis of my imaginary friend says women gays and non believers are second class citizens or mass delusion is something to be celebrated without dissenting questions.

So, what have we learned? we found that playing a harmonica doesn't make you an expert on football, theological knowledge doesn't always mean rational wisdom, defending absurd notions such as creationism just makes you more absurd in your waffle and oh yes. Joe Offer has a breaking point where he comes off the fence.

A pity really because whilst we all have them, I feel as if Steve has just shot Bambi's mum.

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 07:56 AM

Now there's a thought.

I haven't had a second coming since 1983. Maybe I should stop drinking beer... :-(

(and wrong thread but hey-ho) - I wish to protest again that I was responding to a stupid Ron post. I have no worries about my annoying Christians as an atheist presenting a rather devastating (as it turned out) biblical quote, but I have an issue with those who feel so stung who themselves had kept a complacent silence about the post lionising Joe Offer. It's fine to let it ride and feel the warm glow when you're being praised, and, more, being juxtaposed in high contrast with worthless heathens, but not fine to get all stroppy when one of those worthless heathens points out to you the injustice of that juxtaposition when you could easily have spoken out against it yourself. Bambi shot his own mum (a metaphor I've probably got a bit twisted, but, again, hey-ho).

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 07:56 AM

Now there's a thought.

I haven't had a second coming since 1983. Maybe I should stop drinking beer... :-(

(and wrong thread but hey-ho) - I wish to protest again that I was responding to a stupid Ron post. I have no worries about my annoying Christians as an atheist presenting a rather devastating (as it turned out) biblical quote, but I have an issue with those who feel so stung who themselves had kept a complacent silence about the post lionising Joe Offer. It's fine to let it ride and feel the warm glow when you're being praised, and, more, being juxtaposed in high contrast with worthless heathens, but not fine to get all stroppy when one of those worthless heathens points out to you the injustice of that juxtaposition when you could easily have spoken out against it yourself. Bambi shot his own mum (a metaphor I've probably got a bit twisted, but, again, hey-ho).

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 13 - 07:57 AM

I've just had a second coming. Ironic...

Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:54 AM

Eyup. It seems there are only us two left standing in this bar.

Suggest we sup up and bugger off.

Job done.

Subject: BS: Militant atheism is not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:27 PM

More and more, the relationship between our environmental crisis and the principles of evolution are being made clear.

"Militant atheism" is simply a reaction against the intransigence of religious communities and is in no way a religion of itself. This is misleading propaganda on the part of true "believers".

Everyone has a right to their own belief system in a democracy but what is overstepping that right is to accuse those who are reacting to the fundamental problems of religious fanaticism as "miltant atheists", an empty procedure akin to talking about "Islamofacism" or other meaningless epithets.

The voices of clarity are emerging louder and massive among young people who decry the excesses of religion and those religious folk who persecute non-believers by offering this
destructive label of "militant atheists as a religion". The label is not seen by some religious folk as belittling those who disagree with them. This thread is an attack on non-believers,
make no mistake about that. Dawkins has every right to offer his opinion publicly and has been falsely accused of attacking religious believers. He hasn't personalized his comments but kept them on a plane of logic and the promotion of science when it is denigrated by preachers, prelates, priests or any self-appointed important figures of religion..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism is not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket smiling
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 02:17 PM

String singer, you really are a martyr. Wait till the logic choppers from CofE start patronising you again. Then the emissaries from Dumbfuckistan will scoff at you. Then pete wakes up...

I'd just call this thread part 3 myself. Because once they start preaching, the co messiahs and associated gnome are left with no choice other than to remind all about the true religion. This one, as you may recall, offers bingo instead of salvation but at least a teddy bear or carriage clock are true prizes.

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism is not a religion
From: GUEST,Da-da-da-da-dum...
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 02:32 PM

Oh, get a life...

Everything is a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism is not a religion
From: GUEST,Horsie?
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 02:41 PM

Horsie

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,The troll formally known as the troll conce
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 06:37 PM

It is nice to know that the ginger bum inhabitant centrist clowns are alive and well and still spouting their crap..

Subject: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM

It seems that these posts have little service than to offer propagandistic views about religion and non-belief. The term "militant atheism" smacks of a kind of Joseph McCarthy term
to divide and conquer. It is a form of name-calling that is used to derogate points-of-view that don't accede to religious doctrines.

Richard Dawkins laughs at this term since it has been concocted by those who try to make a religion out of non-belief to justify their continuing persecution of non-believers.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 01:25 PM

Elves, please merge all these threads - one is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 01:35 PM

I am so glad to have the self appointed thread content police patrolling the beat. Saying that threads with slightly different ideas should be merged while the thread that the same person started as "part 2" of another thread should stay unmerged.

The logic implied is idiosyncratically astounding.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 03:04 PM

Eyup Sailor!

A bit rich coming from a God bothering prat who keeps reminding the elves that anyone who laughs at you is in breach of some fictitious terms of membership of Mudcat.

zzzz


Militant reality. Who'd have thought of it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 03:14 PM

The previous post is in violation of the terms of use published on the membership page posted below.


Log In (Reset Cookie) - Log Out

Be aware that our forum is Free.

Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

>>>>>>>You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty,<<<<< or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak.

Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum. It is public. Unlike Facebook, there is NO PRIVACY at all.

We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection.

Membership, however, is currently being purified.

One of the great things about mudcat over the years has been our ability to meet other mudcatters around the world in person and visit their homes and such. For this to be safe for everyone, we gotta kinda put you through the ringer a bit. So...

To join this here site, you gotta talk to Joe. A very nice email should be sufficient

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 05:29 PM

Shouldn't that be "wringer"?   "ringers" are two different sorts of beasts altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 06:03 PM

" in violation of the terms of use published"

Oh... *wry grin* ..it probably is. I'd guess it would take 27 elves working 12 hour shifts to monitor and edit enough threads to enforce the idea... and this would generate 3 times as many posts complaining about borderline examples and complaining that the continuity had been totally disrupted.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 06:33 PM

Wry grin. Mr Musket brags that he is doing it on purpose as some sort of enforcement of his values. also until "09 Jan 14 - 03:14 PM " he thought the rules were "fictitious terms of membership" don't you think that educating people who arrogantly display their ignorance is worth the effort.

I'm not saying that the elves should respond to every act of unkindness, arumentitiveness etc, but when someone claims it as a mission violates a very simple and unimposing set of rules just about every second post, I don't think it is unreasonable to point it out.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 07:07 PM

Oh, grow up FFS!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 07:17 PM

I seem to remember that once upon a time the term "church militant" was used, and it denoted Christians eager to spread their faith in the existence of God, and of Christ as saviour. when we attach the word "militant" to "atheist" it denotes those eager to spread their faith position in the assertion that there is [or there is little chance of] there being a God, and also their very vocal opposition to "god botherers"!.
if the above description is nowhere near you, then please rest assured you are not being got at. if it does,- then people living in glass houses should not throw stones!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 10:16 PM

*I* point out obvious problems.

*YOU* are a bit aggressive.

*HE* is overtly militant!

(after the columnist Sydney J. Harris. who used to make lists like that every few months)

Propaganda terms can come from almost anywhere, depending on tone and context.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 10:17 PM

"'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term"

'Militant Atheism' is a term that if you're thinking about it one way or another, you've got WAY too much time on your hands, just trying to think of ANYTHING!
It happens when the affluent, who don't know that they are, happen to be very bored, as well!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket grinning
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 01:16 AM

Says something about the quality of the thread when it takes old Goofus to drag it back on song.

Anyway what's new about this thread? Seaman Stains lights the blue touch paper, then complains about the fireworks. Starry pete confuses superstition with lack of superstition, inferring that not being superstitious is a faith statement in itself. I use my knowledge of which buttons to press in order to get entertainment from some of the more predictable characters here.

Seems like another sunny day in Mudcatland to me.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 01:58 AM

Musket, grinning: "I use my knowledge of which buttons to press in order to get entertainment from some of the more predictable characters here."

Last time he pressed his belly-button, his ass fell off!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 02:33 AM

" I use my knowledge of which buttons to press in order to get entertainment from some of the more predictable characters here. "

In clear and arrogant violation of the terms of use of this site.

He is mocking you Max.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 02:57 AM

" ... it denoted Christians eager to spread their faith in the existence of God, and of Christ as saviour."

Frankly, pete, I've always found that eagerness to be a bit alarming. When some 'eager' Christian approaches me in the street, or knocks on my door, to tell me the "good news!" about something or other, my instinct is to get away as fast as possible! If I ever found myself cornered by such a person, then there's a good chance that I might turn 'militant'.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:09 AM

The rules seem pretty vague.

As far as I can see, Ian is the only person here who indulges in personal insults and cursing, directly at other members without provocation.

This is quite distinctly different from being able to discuss any subject on this forum, as long as one is being factual.

The old rules simply stated that personal abuse was banned, and worked very well.....policed mainly by the membership.

If everyone behaved like Ian discussion would be impossible, he either prints insulting remarks, curses and swearwords, or incomprehensible jargon.

This is his MO.....he has said it often enough, he wants to shut down discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:31 AM

Why does this state of affairs continue on this forum?
Because many people value their own personal ideology over freedom of expression.
They quite enjoy seeing people who hold alternative views being insulted and sworn at....although they would never indulge in that sort of behaviour themselves.

There are people on this thread who try to equate the actions of folk like Ian, with those of us who want a reasoned discussion on any issue, without being subjected to intimidation.

It is really up to the membership to determine what SORT of forum we have, is it to be a serious platform for debate.....the members are intelligent enough for that, or is it to be a foul playground for trolls and bullies?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:40 AM

There is no one on this forum more "predictable" than Ian

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:53 AM

If ever we find who this Ian is who questions people without provocation, it would be nice. We could ask him why he does it.

I go by the name of Ian too. In fact, I have been known to question the character of a bloke called Alex who uses Akenaton but insists on naming others. Mind you, the difference between me and this fictitious Ian is that I respond when he says gay people are perverts, that they are unnatural and offensive to natural law, whatever that is. I possibly get a tad angry when he speaks of forcing people to undergo medical tests and being out on a register simply for being gay. Even the celibate ones apparently.

Tell you what, I will give a nod to decency on these threads when those in charge censor incitement to hatred, which happens to be illegal, never mind distasteful where this Alex bloke lives.

Jerk the Sea Cadet starts threads to provoke, then hilariously screams about some code of conduct. Can't recall you screaming when our resident Scottish bigot calls to round up queers and poufs? Where is your indignation when God botherers use these threads to promote their particular brand of bigotry, misogyny and telling children they are sinners?

Keep banging the rocks together, and don't forget to splice the mainbrace whatever..

zzz

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 05:21 AM

While there have been murderous and oppressive atheists, by and large they don't do those things for the purposes of spreading atheism. The opposite is true of theists - historically they have enslaved and compelled precisely for the purposes of trying to spread belief in their gods.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 05:38 AM

No God??..No Love...What did you fucking expect?...Atheists to be Saint-like?

Nope nope nope...They're Blue Meanies....sociopathic..no conscience about their behavior.....

'Militant Atheism': ".....ATTEN-CHUTT!!!......At ease.....stand straight... suck in that need to offend.....firm it up....fire first..then ask questions.....they all got what they got cummin'....just duck and learn to take cover....so you can come back and suck the life out of another room again!!"

"YESSIR!!!"

"The moment you regard your fellow man as yourself, is the day you need to take cover..or you can die!"

"YESSIR!!"

"I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!"

"YESSS-SIR!!!!"

"Know your enemy, love, faith, hope, joy, and peace....take no prisoners!! Yours is a 'Search and Destroy' mission....if it's invisible, and feels like it came from that 'invisible God', snuff it immediately...we're up against a critical time element!!......"

"YESSIR!!"

"Dismissed!"

"YESSIR"

Trot trot trot....hmmm....just waiting for this screen to come on....


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 12:32 PM

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty,

I think a sure sign of being argumentative is flatly saying that things are not true when it is generally accepted that they are. Most everyone knows who the Ian is that Ake is addressing. Most of all the Ian who answered his point with snooty sarcasm.


Musket the rules are very very clear. You are not free to be unkind. It is clear that you are and you brag about it. You are here to "Push buttons," punish people for opinions you do not like and generally disrupt conversation.

Lots of people disagree with Ake's politics vis a vis gay people, including my self. Dozens have expressed their displeasure with Ake's Only one person constantly brings that up as an ad hominum attack even when those issues are not under discussion. Only one person follows Ake around the forum harassing him. Only one person consistently brags about harassing people.

Whether you like it or not, Ake is entitled to express his opinions. His doing so does not give you license to be unkind, impolite, argumentative, and snooty. You are entitled to respectfully disagree, respectfully.

I did start a thread. But not to provoke. I said "here is an article some might fid interesting. Stringsinger took it upon himself to redefine terms in an NPR article. You called me a jerk. Who is being unkind and argumentative?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 01:10 PM

Hee hee the tshirt says Militant atheism = There's no goddamn god god damn it!

Anyway, militant does not mean enthusiastic nor rabid, it means having a military attitude towards as in let's go in and let our .45's do the talking for us, so it's rarely the atheists who are thus. Which would make it obviously a propaganda term...

Or they mean it literally, as in, figuratively.

***********AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH****************
go the language people...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 01:19 PM

Ian, I don't care in the least what you think of my "views" which you completely misunderstand.
Show me where I have "incited hatred"....I don't hate homosexuals, I feel rather sorry that they will never know the pain and joy of producing and bringing up their own children, but "hate" is not in my nature.
Very many people worldwide see same gender sex as a perversion, but that is surely arguable without "hatred" being brought up.
To practice a perversion is not the end of the world, there are many perfectly harmless perversions.....unfortunately male to male sex seem to be a very dangerous one.

I am concerned that the behaviour of your and some of you "gang", ruin what has always been a fine and civil debating platform. Your abusive "style"....or lack of, could soon become acceptable here and that will be the day we can all log off!

Jack...you too have been subjected to childish name calling as has Pete just for defending people with a religious faith. We have disagreed about lots of things over the years yet always in a civilised manner...Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 02:39 PM

Don't be faux-naif, wannabee pharoah. You have argued here for the imprisonment of all homosexuals (or something like that) and proselytised with propaganda statistics about STDs and GUIs. And you have asserted that Romanies/travellers are sociopaths. You appear to be a ball of hate spitting everywhere you go. You know I despise Mither most of the time but you are an aspirant oppressor and discriminator.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 02:41 PM

Oh, and Pete from the 7 stars is from a more distant planet than Fugitive From Sanity - a denier of history and archaeological fact - and a bloody nuisance at a singaround with soppy self-penned god-bothering songs.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 02:47 PM

Don't get me wrong Ake, I have pushed a button or two for my own amusement in my time. Just not since I found out it was against the rules.   I am willing to try Max's new paradigm. But I know it won't work with people proudly and arrogantly doing the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 03:38 PM

Jerk. Fuck off.

How's that?

What's all this about following the worm around threads? A trail of slime is the only thing that does that. Don't tell lies. Max wouldn't like it.

Homophobia is disgusting. Pointing the fact out is a responsible good thing to do. Members of the human race , including armchair socialists like Bridge. He is a human. A weird one I grant you. But hey ho. Members of the human race don't turn the other cheek when the likes of Akenhateon wish to oppress others.

In the meantime I'll take the piss and Jerk the Sea Cadet will scream decency , whilst being nice to the worm.

After all, bigotry and Christianity seem to work well together.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:36 PM

Ian, both Richard and yourself have no compunction it presenting what I SAY in a manner that you think will show you and your agenda in the best possible light.
Truth never comes into anything you write.

I have never argued for the imprisonment of all homosexuals, or even for any homosexuals....I have said openly that I don't agree with the criminalisation of homosexuals.

I do not present the figures, the health agencies do that and anyone who thinks they are meaningless is a fool.
The figures depict a stark picture of a section of our society suffering an epidemic of sexual disease.
That is undeniable if you have one operational rain cell between you.

I have never said gypsies/ travellers are sociopaths, but in my area they were certainly taking advantage of bad legislation to run a large drug and money lending business, enforced at knife point.
Fortunately their fortress was closed and the families involved rehoused in areas where the police could monitor them.

I know exactly what I am talking about, you Richard do not.
You have not seen the slashed faces, or the terrified young addicts.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 06:09 PM

"What's all this about following the worm around threads? A trail of slime is the only thing that does that. "

obvious violation of the terms of use.


I am no nicer to Ake than anyone else. He is following the rules. there is no rule against voicing unpopular opinions. I am trying not to be unkind, impolite, argumentative, or snooty to anyone. I would like the forum to also do that. Most people have. You are standing in the way. Why don't you show some decency and try to behave yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 06:22 PM

Ain't no such thing as militant atheism.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 06:48 PM

"Only one person follows Ake around the forum harassing him. Only one person consistently brags about harassing people."

Kind of begs the question "Who is the foremost OP of anti Atheist threads?"

Judge not, lest ye be judged!   Eh Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 07:02 PM

Is there really that big of a difference between stupidity and hate???
..and don't you just hate it when 'some' speak against 'hate', but then present a stupid premise that they're tying to make...now we have to separate just plain old hate, as opposed for hate for stupidity...or if some present a stupid point of view, just to support their hate for anything not as stupid as they can't understand...then they hate you if you don't want to be as stupid as they are, and agree with something totally stupid...and THEN they REALLY HATE that!!.....then they try to spread their thinly veiled indignation, with smooth rhetoric...but it's really just more stupid hate speech....

..or something like that!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 07:28 PM

those that only offer mockery. insults , and foul language instead of attempting a reasonable argument, have already lost the argument ,even if they ever had a good argument to start with.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 12:13 AM

I have not started a single "Anti-atheist thread." I started a thread linking to an article by a famous atheist talking about other atheists and their actions and said it reminded me of a few people on this forum. In fact the complaint that I had then is the complaint that I have now, which is they are poor representatives of the cause they claim to care for because they are as dogmatic and pushy as the people they claim to dislike.

But to say that I am "anti-atheist" because I dislike the behavior of a few jackasses on this form simply is not true.

Do you think the "church of the Godless" threads I started is anti-atheist? How so? The article says these people are joining in fellowship as a substitute for Christian Church. I certainly an not against that. In fact I wish them well. Others call their church's name an oxymoron but lets face it. There is military intelligence. There are jumbo shrimp.

I have no problem saying that Musket is breaking the rules here. You can try to judge me for that. The problem is that I don't break the rules every day. I certainly don't claim that the rules are ficticous. I don't proudly claim to be pushing people's buttons.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 02:41 AM

Wonderful. I seem to be breaking the rules, though obviously not. Akenhateon breaks the law where he lives and you say homophobic incitement to hatred is a valid opinion.

I could I suppose quote the many times the worm has stated that just being human and choosing your gender of lover is perverted, that it is against natural law and as such should be compelled to be forced to be put on a register after undergoing medical tests without consent.

But no. As ever, this is about God botherers such as Jerk the Sea Cadet wanting to claim smug superiority over rational people. If I had to try to belittle others to justify my faith, I would ask myself if I was secretly embarrassed by what I believe in.

Oy pete. Me saying "fuck" doesn't lead to your God mysteriously appearing. There is no argument against your young earth creationism nonsense , there doesn't have to be one.

Who's next? Form a pile.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 03:28 AM

Well, not me, Ian. You seem to be making sense on this thread, even if not on another where we are currently exchanging posts!

Re the thread question. Well, "militant" is a bit of an emotive boo-word; but it would surely be idle to deny that some atheists [of whom I am one] are more anxious to demonstrate, let us say, the intellectual superiority of their position to that of some religious people, than are others.

A little story re a late dear friend, well known to readers of this forum. During a middle-aged period in my 40s, during which I thought I would test out my beliefs [after which, as I say, I returned to my default position, atheism], I mentioned to Peter Bellamy, who was staying over with us as he always did when gigging around Cambs, that I had got adult-baptised and confirmed and was church-going regularly in my [then] new village.

"Oh yes," he replied truculently, "well then I've got a couple of questions to ask you."

"OK, Pete," I replied. "But just ask yourself a couple of questions first. Why do you want to ask me these questions? Is it to try and deprive me of my faith? And, if so, what do you want to do that for?"

Pete thought for a moment. "You're right," he said."I won't ask my questions after all."

I think there are some atheists who might do well sometimes to ask themselves these questions before {'militantly' or otherwise} questioning the beliefs of others.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket clicking knuckles
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 04:43 AM

Michael, you disappoint me. I was looking forward to trying to argue the toss with someone who can return the grenade still ticking!

Perhaps the work of the late Mr Bellamy with regard to Kipling and forming the Edwardian view of military endeavour may be of use in the present WW1 thread. Keith appears to be sinking. He has been listing to port for a while mind.

Regarding your conversation over belief, I find one thing curious. You were on a voyage of discovery, taking stock etc and presumably didn't find the hidden treasure. Those who advertise the treasure could never accept that you can deprive someone of lack of faith. Such depriving would be seen in their eyes as enlightenment.

And that is when everybody runs home to polish their guns.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:57 AM

Sorry, Ian. But we can't disagree every time, & must occasionally co-operate in lobbing our grenades at others.

Don't disagree with your point above, about the attempts of the 'enlightened' to convert those they see as the unenlightened. But I can't see it as contradicting the point I made about the contrariwise efforts, one of which PB was about to launch on me till I persuaded him to think better of it. Where do you find anything 'curious' in my exchange with Pete?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 10:16 AM

There is a persecution complex going around in Christian circles at present. Not the labelling of ethnic communities along belief name tags, but silly old men such as an ex Archbishop of Canterbury claiming that "atheists" are depriving them of their faith.

So my curiosity is based on the trap you seem to have fallen into (in your "youth") of assuming questioning of faith as attempted deprivation . It's as if some religious people expect others to accept and never question their faith. All well and good but religious people are happy for their cult (but not other cults) to have influence in society at large, but this large member of society insists on questioning rather than accepting that which aims to have an effect on him.

I find Brasso to be good, and pipe cleaners to prevent build up around the helix scoring in the barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 11:37 AM

I didn't 'assume' it, Ian. If you read what I wrote again, you will note that I specifically asked Pete to consider whether that was his motivation. It appears that, on consideration, he considered it so, & withdrew. But I had assumed nothing -- altho consideration as to what other motivation he might have had for his truculent announcement of the questions he had to pose did rather, you must admit, give rise to a remote possibility of such a motive on his part. But I fail to see myself as having 'fallen into any trap'; that's just your emotive gloss, innit!

〠~M~〠

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 12:47 PM

Without emotive gloss, social intercourse wouldn't glide so easily.

Other types of intercourse are easier with lubrication too, but I am willing to bet Jacko can find something in the rule book precluding mentioning them.

An aside to the world!!

I have managed to find, on Amazon, (why didn't i look there before? I buy from them most weeks...) a nut for one of my banjos that has sat in its box for ten years waiting for me to replace it. It is the correct size, no filing, rubbing down etc that blighted earlier attempts.

£3.50 too..

I am so happy, I could crap a grapefruit. Just thought I would share the second happy news of the day with you all.

The first happy news was just shared with half of Yorkshire. Got back from the match earlier. Just stuffed Leeds 6.0.

If the beer is on form in The White Bear tonight, thats the proof that good things come in 3s.

Militant atheism? Pah! Lady luck every time.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 12:56 PM

Let's bottom line it...people don't know how the fuck they got here, or what the fuck to do or think now that they've arrived!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 02:28 PM

Happy to support Mither here if he promises to pluck his drum with strings elsewhere (and it would be nice if he became a socialist, so long as I did not have to meet him). Wannabee Pharoah, he has you nailed.

MtheGM - since, on balance, religion does much more harm than good it is good to try to derive its users of their "faith" and convert them to rationality - but it is largely only the religious who do that about religion by killing them.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 02:32 PM

Helluvan echo in this room.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 04:06 PM

Agree with you up to a point this time, Richard. But the compulsion you urge must, surely, involve some degree of 'militancy', mustn't it?

& OTOH I do know people who do derive much comfort from their faith, and with some of them I'd as soon stamp on a fallen nestling bird as try to deprive them of it.

I always suffer from a maddening habit [maddening to myself as well as to anyone else] of being able to see both sides of things, often leading to a sort of practical & intellectual paralysis. How 'militant' I think my atheism should be is one of such questions.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 04:43 PM

Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term? please discuss...and lets have less of the petty, ginger woosy, ditchcreeping psuedo morality and name calling.Try and behave like grown ups..

I know it is a lot to ask of you moronic, centrist,thumb up bum side winders..but for sanitys sake lets try..pretty pink please?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:00 PM

I see jerk the sailor is back with us with his toadying ways and shit eating grin...and quoting stuff he barely understands, like his nautical pretensions

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:15 PM

not very kind of you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:16 PM

Musket: "Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term? please discuss...and lets have less of the petty, ginger woosy, ditchcreeping psuedo morality and name calling.Try and behave like grown ups..

I know it is a lot to ask of you moronic, centrist,thumb up bum side winders..but for sanitys sake lets try..pretty pink please?"

You post is somewhat self-fulfilling.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:20 PM

Shouldn't that be self-defeating?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:21 PM

Shouldn't that be self-defeating?

Well, when people play with themselves..one of them has to lose!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:29 PM

The preceding post of 09 Jan 14 - 03:04 PM by GUEST,Musket is in clear violation of the terms of use.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:47 PM

Oh Jack, cut him some slack..he's bored and has nothing to say...he's too weary to be witty..it's just 'one of those days'.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:52 PM

He can grow up and try to behave like the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:01 PM

As far as I can see, Ian is the only person here who indulges in personal insults and cursing, directly at other members without provocation.

Then you need to see an occulist, Pharoah.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:05 PM

Yes Greg, he forgot you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:18 PM

OOOOOH Jackie! Such wit!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:38 PM

I don't see the point of this thread without Stringsinger's posts and the responses to them. Should it be merged with his other Atheist thread?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 06:45 PM

LOL I meant the current one. I didn't know this one existed.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 09:07 PM

Seems to me that most groups have militants. The militant wing of a group is usually its most extreme, most aggressive, and most likely to be alienated from other groups. Militants seem to thrive on hating and attacking others.

Christians certainly have militants - the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. Muslims have their militants, and some of those militants become terrorists. And I think that atheists have their militants, too - I can't think of any reason why they should be exempt.

But I don't think that "militant" is a propaganda term when it's used to describe the extremist part of any group. It seems to be a very accurate term in that situation. Where the term "militant" becomes unfair and might be considered propaganda, is when the term is used to describe and blame the entire group, not just the extremists within the group.

I suppose that the next logical thing to do, is to ask whether the larger group should be held to blame for the actions of its extremists, its militants. I think not. Of course, much of the content of our Mudcat religion threads is exactly that - blaming groups for the misdeeds of the group's extremists, rather than an honest assessment of the actuality of the group.

And we have both religious and non-religious people who spew out that blame, over and over again.

Shame on them.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 09:45 PM

Well, Joe, how about we blame the several groups for not abjuring and/or condemning the extremists?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 10:41 PM

"He can grow up and try to behave like the rest of us."

But he IS behaving like the rest of us!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 10:53 PM

200....I can't believe it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 11:28 PM

200 for now.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 11:30 PM

Ha! that didn't last long!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 11:39 PM

Jack the Sailor: "200 for now."....

...."Ha! that didn't last long!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:28 AM

Greg F says: Well, Joe, how about we blame the several groups for not abjuring and/or condemning the extremists?

I think that's an unfair and unwise expectation, Greg. People on the "lunatic fringe" crave attention, and even negative attention gives an air of legitimacy. I really shouldn't be expected to "abjure and/or condemn" every idiot that comes down the pike. There are times when condemnation is effective - but there are many times when silence is far more effective and appropriate.

I certainly feel an obligation to show respect for homosexuals, but I feel no need to condemn the anti-homosexual activities of the Westboro Baptist Church. They're a group of forty bigots who are very good at calling attention to themselves. Why should I give them any attention at all?

Now, if there were some sort of Central Baptist Authority, I think they might be morally bound to expel the Westboro folks, but I don't think the Baptists have a central authority that is able to do that. And if there were expelled, then they'd get even more publicity by being martyrs for their cause.

Does that make sense to you, Greg? I think it is dangerously close to bigotry to condemn an entire group the the actions of its lunatic fringe, or to expect that larger group to condemn what is obviously reprehensible conduct on the part of the fringe group. If I'm a Christian and an anti-homosexual group also calls itself Christian, that doesn't give you cause to condemn me as anti-homosexual unless I have done something myself to deserve that title.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:11 AM

Goofus. You credited me with a quote from troll who used to be concerned. Do keep up. I never say bum. I would probably say arse, or if ensuring Jerk or your good self got the message , ass.

Ass where I come from is what a racehorse would turn out as if the contributors to this thread designed it. Self included to be fair.

Talking of keeping up, you have met me Bridge. Tsk. Perhaps didn't notice the Rolls and fat cigar. Tell you what, whilst you are waffling on about me being some lackey or other for plutocrats, the likes of the worm or Pharoh as some call him, reckon I'm a sandal wearing tree hugging loony leftist. You see, we all read into posts with our preconception antenna finely tuned.

And finally Cyril? And finally Esther.

There was an old sailor called Jerk
Who reckoned that threads wouldn't work
Unless we all posted
Ideas that he hosted
If we didn't then he'd go berserk

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:31 AM

I liked the limerick, Musket, despite myself - but I still think you should be nicer....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 06:28 AM

Most reckon I am nice Joe. No idea if they are right of course...

As I have said before, when some people on here insult others without knowing it or failing to take it into account, I don my BatMan outfit and right wrongs in the best Hollywood tradition. The only exception being the man behind Akenaton. Some attitudes shouldn't be encouraged by making light of them. I mean every single word there. The others I could probably argue the toss with a smile over a pint or bottle.

Or few.

Strangely, some still think their outrageous behaviour is ok. I know mine is beyond the pail (pale, let's not go there!)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 08:38 AM

"Tell you what, whilst you are waffling on about me being some lackey or other for plutocrats, the likes of the worm or Pharoh as some call him, reckon I'm a sandal wearing tree hugging loony leftist."

So you think that is my opinion of you Ian? :0)

I have a little respect for "loony left tree huggers", they are real people with emotion and empathy with nature....the sincere ones.

On the other hand, I know exactly what you are, you make your personality clearer with every post you deliver.

I'm afraid you are a common stereotype....and the irony is, your "raison detre" is to stereotype every other person or alternative view that you encounter.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 10:43 AM

I think it is dangerously close to bigotry to condemn an entire group the the actions of its lunatic fringe

That's not what I'm doing, Joe - read my post again.

I feel no need to condemn the anti-homosexual activities of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Ah but Joe, its hardly just the Westboro jackasses, no?

that doesn't give you cause to condemn me as anti-homosexual unless I have done something myself to deserve that title.

1. No, but it gives me the right to condemn someone that DOESN'T do something, as in "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

2. Joe, this isn't about you personally.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:16 AM

"I suppose that the next logical thing to do, is to ask whether the larger group should be held to blame for the actions of its extremists, its militants. I think not."

I think not too, and as people can subscribe to more than one worldview (such as scientists with a faith) the argument is revealed for what it is: a rather clumsy attempt to promote a reductionist viewpoint to support the arguer's own personal view. All organisations, whether an established religion, political party, scientific society or local charity are microcosms of wider society and the intrigues, existence of internal factions and the dominance of the odd megalomaniac are all part of how we as a species work together. It's all transient anyway.

For what it's worth, I think people are fundamentally good and do have the best interests of others at heart. The Fred Phelps/Taliban/Militant/Dawkins literalists/fundamentalists/ideologues tend to be rather unsophisticated souls with a high tolerance of violence and an ego the size of Greenland; shouters and sowers of discord rather than the more reflective, considerate majority. These people exist in any section of society, not just religion.

There's just one thing that bothers me though. If you are religious, isn't your default position that everyone who doesn't follow your particular creed is wrong? If you truly adhere to C of E (for example) teachings then all Shinto priests, Catholic Cardinals, Buddhist Rinpoches, Siberian Shamans etc etc must be wrong. Christ said the only way to God is through him, so doesn't that supersede all that old testament lunacy such as the stoning of people for calling mum and dad, marrying your sister and murdering one of the kids etc? So that means only Christians can be correct (from a Christian viewpoint?).

I could be wrong about any of these religions (I'm what you might call a scientific agnostic) so perhaps when I meet St Peter he'll have a few stern words for me (or if Tibetan Buddhism is the true religion then we can all whine about how we were misled as we walk the world as hungry ghosts). I'm not sure I would like to have to judge people like that.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:17 AM

Ah.. it was getting good for a while ..old barnacle balls biting nicely..me sweet baby musket showing his usual extremely excellent sense of humour and scholastic and artistic ability with that rather fine Limerick..But Lo!! what happened.. back to the usual back biting and slanging match by the thumb up bum and crayon brigade ..lol..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:18 AM

I suppose acknowledging "worm" as meaning him is a start.

I was thinking of a more correct example of the word "stereotype." The best I can think of is when some fool or other says all gay people are perverts. Another could be use of parentheses to come up with gay "marriage."

Regarding Joe's statement that it is close to bigotry to condemn a whole group on the basis of a lunatic fringe, this seems logical until the whole group wish to influence others. The moral right to influence politics, things which affect people who don't share your beliefs starts with stating what is, in this case Christian, and what isn't.

As it stands, without the likes of The Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury disowning their radical fringe, I cannot see where the moral authority is to be anything other than irrelevant?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:22 PM

Muskbutt: "The moral right to influence politics, things which affect people who don't share your beliefs starts with stating what is, in this case Christian, and what isn't.
As it stands, without the likes of The Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury disowning their radical fringe, I cannot see where the moral authority is to be anything other than irrelevant?"

What does the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury have to do with 'Spirituality'???..That's like saying politics has something to do with 'Freedom'!

Those are just organizations who co-opt people whose interest lies in those things, but steer them away FROM 'Freedom' and/or 'Spirituality' into exploiting them for power through manipulations!

Jesus was talking about love, and loving your brother, because under it all we are really one living organism....Politicians preach division, so they can structure their own power base.

Methinks atheism is just a backlash AGAINST those 'religious' structures, rather than God...by God's definition!
Neither religious 'leaders' nor politicians, represent the heart of their followers. History CLEARLY teaches us that!.....(but then, history also teaches us that man never learns from history!).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:12 PM

Worldwide, most ordinary Christians IMO, see homosexuality as a "perversion" and this is the reason they are opposed to the redefinition of Christian marriage.
The fact that we happen to live in the "liberal" West, does not automatically make us superior in religious matters or thought
Christianity did after all originate in the East.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:35 PM

Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:11 AM post from Guest, Musket is in flagrant violation of the terms of use.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:49 PM

>>From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:18 AM

I suppose acknowledging "worm" as meaning him is a start.<<

Is a clear violation of the terms of use. It is argumentative and unkind.


>>Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll - PM
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:17 AM

Ah.. it was getting good for a while ..old barnacle balls biting nicely..me sweet baby musket showing his usual extremely excellent sense of humour and scholastic and artistic ability with that rather fine Limerick..But Lo!! what happened.. back to the usual back biting and slanging match by the thumb up bum and crayon brigade ..lol..<<

Also unkind and argumentative.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:03 PM

Oy worm. Nobody is redefining Christian marriage. Christians don't have the monopoly on marriage and if anybody says gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry, they are showing their crass bigotry and awful attitude. An attitude that has no place in respectable society. You say you aren't religious, so claiming you shouldn't be ashamed of your odious view on the basis Christians share it is beneath contempt. Marriage is open to all. Praise Clapton!

This summer, we are guests at a gay wedding. Two lots of ruddy pressies as we were at their civil partnership bash.... Guess what? They are both Christians and attend church for that matter.

Jerk. Give me a list of these here rules will you? I want to see how many I can break in one paragraph, and relate them all to you. Anyway, didn't you like the limerick? I don't write poetry for any silly sausage you know. You are in an exclusive club. Only you and Goofus to date.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:40 PM

You know Joe a few people egged on Martin Gibson. You said that I was squealing like a stuck pig when I got tired of him calling my wife names not acceptable anywhere and I started pointing out JUST HOW MUCH, he was insulting people. Ultimately Gibson got banned, but your turning the focus on his victims for pointing out his incivility delayed that day for far too long.

You can complain all you want about people being uncivil, but when you encourage that with a wink, you undermine your own words and efforts of the "mudelves" to enforce what are pretty simple and clear rules. Should be nicer is your judgement but that post and that limmerick clearly violate the rules that Max posted.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:44 PM

>>From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:03 PM

Oy worm.

Jerk. Give me a list of these here rules will you? I want to see how many I can break in one paragraph, and relate them all to you.<<<

Max he is mocking your rules.


Musket. I've told you where the rules were and posted them in several thread. Go to the homepage of Mudcat and click on "membership" if you want to see them again.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM

Come on Jerk!!! get a life for yourself you salt stained charleton.

Come on fess up!! apart from your obvious false pretensions as a mariner and your pathetic attempts at the pseudo intellect..the only thing you are really good at is aresole creeping, toadying, brown nosing elves and the ultra critique of your betters, like me and sweet cheeks muskett.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:05 PM

"From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 02:31 AM

I liked the limerick, Musket, despite myself - but I still think you should be nicer....

-Joe- "

This is very counterproductive. He doesn't need to be "nicer." He needs to follow the rules. The limerick was unkind, impolite and designed to provoke an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:52 PM

>>RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll - PM
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM

Come on Jerk!!! get a life for yourself you salt stained charleton.

Come on fess up!! apart from your obvious false pretensions as a mariner and your pathetic attempts at the pseudo intellect..the only thing you are really good at is aresole creeping, toadying, brown nosing elves and the ultra critique of your betters, like me and sweet cheeks muskett. <<

blatent disrespect for the rules and for all other members of this forum.

I think we deserve better than having this forum be a playground for serial trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 05:31 PM

Well bugger off then.

Come on, Joe asked me to be nice. I was! Not one reference in that limerick about Seaman Stains, Jerk the Sea Cadet, Whacko Jacko or Spunky Jack.

Must be getting soft in my old age.

Anyway, why start provocative threads just to get indignant about the reaction? You should be thanking us for feeding your masochistic streak. Your fascination with " militant atheism " seems to be getting the reaction you keep asking for.

I say you are in breach of the rules. I've never read the buggers you understand but surely your provocative blundering is at least as bad as my piss taking? Not a problem. It isn't wrong to lie to Christians is it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 05:38 PM

Ian, I do not recognise the term "worm", it was evident whom you were addressing by the contents of your post. If you want to continue to make a fool of yourself, carry on.
Homosexuals can avail themselves of civil "marriage" at the moment, giving all the rights and benefits of heterosexual marriage.
That is not enough for the activists, who want Christian marriage re-defined to accommodate what most Christians see as a perversion.
Are you trying to say that Christians or anyone else for that matter have no right to oppose legislation which seeks to legitimise behaviour associated with huge rates of sexually transmitted disease on one hand and contradicts the teachings of the Christian rule book on the other........you are an ideologue of the worst type.

I am at present an atheist, but am probably in the process of change, these threads have opened my eyes to which section of the community is REALLY harking back to the dark ages...and beyond.
It is obvious that our modern society requires a moral compass more than ever.

Joe, I must agree with Jack here, do you really want to see the forum degenerate into a mess of abuse such as we see here?
It would be easy, if we were so minded, for any of us to adopt Ian's approach which is intimidation and abuse in place of reasoned argument.
Every post from Ian to myself, or most other members with whom he disagrees, contains personal insults


There are several people here who have behaved in a devious and sometimes insulting manner to me personally, if I were to use Ian's MO, the forum would be a battleground....stupid and aggressive, well, that is what is happening slowly but surely, personal abuse is becoming acceptable......a geriatric Facebook?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 05:48 PM

>>Well bugger off then.

Come on, Joe asked me to be nice. I was! Not one reference in that limerick about Seaman Stains, Jerk the Sea Cadet, Whacko Jacko or Spunky Jack.

Must be getting soft in my old age.

Anyway, why start provocative threads just to get indignant about the reaction? You should be thanking us for feeding your masochistic streak. Your fascination with " militant atheism " seems to be getting the reaction you keep asking for. <<

I did not start this thread or any other to provoke. This thread and the vast majority of the threads about Militant Atheism were started by Stringsinger. But he hasn't broken any rules. He isn't deliberately defying Max and the moderators to see just how much he can get away with. Click on "Membership." What is not allowed is clearly and simply presented.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 06:05 PM

>>>Homosexuals can avail themselves of civil "marriage" at the moment, giving all the rights and benefits of heterosexual marriage.<<<

I don't understand your argument here. Are you opposed to the use of word "marriage?" to describe civil unions?


>>That is not enough for the activists, who want Christian marriage re-defined to accommodate what most Christians see as a perversion.<<<

Most Christans, for now, maybe but that is changing especially with the Pope and the leaders of many more progressive denominations preaching tolerance and acceptance.

>>>Are you trying to say that Christians or anyone else for that matter have no right to oppose legislation which seeks to legitimise behaviour associated with huge rates of sexually transmitted disease on one hand and contradicts the teachings of the Christian rule book on the other........you are an ideologue of the worst type.<<<

I think you have a punctuation problem here. But I agree if there are people telling churches what to believe that is wrong, But the flip side is that churches have no business telling monogamous gay couples living as a family that they are not married. I also believe that you are on very shaky ground in implying that Gays living in monogamous, state sanctioned, unions increase the spread of AIDs. Next to celibacy is obviously the most effective way to prevent any STD.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:13 AM

Well, I'm the Music editor here now, and I don't have anything to do with enforcing the "rules," such as they are. The longstanding practice at Mudcat has been that for the most part, people are supposed to police themselves and act in a civil manner simply because it's good for discussion.

There's so much bickering and nastiness in this thread, that it's hard for me to figure out where there's any logic in this discussion any more.

I did see some comments before that seem to say that the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury have no right to "intervene" in "political" issues. That's not really how things work in churches in modern times. For the most part, blind obedience disappeared a century or more ago. The Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury represent their denominations, so that does give them some clout; but mostly what they do, is say what they think on issues they consider important. They present their opinions in a rational manner and invite people to consider what they say. If what they say makes sense, people may go along with it. If not, people ignore them.

At times in this forum, it seems to me that some people are saying that religious leaders have no right to speak out on issues that are not strictly religious, because they might unduly influence matters in which they have no business. Well, I disagree. Religious leaders have as much right to speak out, as anyone.

And I still think Musket should be nicer....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 02:15 AM

Aye Joe. And it would be nice if there were things for Musket to be nice about.

Every time the worm puts the word marriage in parentheses when referring to same sex marriage , don't expect me to say "well, that's one view." It's disgraceful bigotry of the first order.

Every time Jack pushes his beliefs down peoples' throats by giving stereotypical slurs to the already insulting term atheist, I doubt I will keep quiet.

Every time you wash your hands of everything to do with religion other than your particular congregation yet say Christians this, Christians that, I will point out the role of appointed (anointed ?) leaders and their responsibilities in order for any congregation to have relevance in their community at large.

I find fighting smouldering embers with huge flames to be most cathartic. Certainly flushes out a few real agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:39 AM

here here fellows!! well spoken.

You see barnacle balls, there is a major flaw in your whingeing; some of us ;notably sweet cheeks muskett and I make no pretense of who we are
.I have never pretended to be anything else than a humble troll

On the other hand a major fraud such as you leaves yourself wide open for some mild teasing and criticism.

I mean, your absurd nautical pretensions alone sets you aside from intelligent chaps and chapessese.

There is no such thing as "nice", a particularly middle class woosy ginger liberal home service express readers beige word.

Most of the people posting on here (with the exception of course of muskeett and i) are not nice and leave themselves wide open with their smart arsed, pseudo semi digested comments, their outrageous comments on folks grammar and spelling etc,a lot of this directed at me personally, so aint ii right I come back at them with a little gentle teasing?

Jerk, face it, you are not nice with your dangerous reactionary posts.The likes of you the antisocial shaw person, big baby wizzjet the horrible unstable gnome charector are the ones who are out of order here..as muscett quaintly and eloquently puts it..you don't like it bugger of then

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 11:37 AM

Musket, No one is asking you to stop expressing your opinions. You are simply being asked to play by the rules. These rules which can be found by clicking on the membership page.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty.

All you have to do is express your opinions without being any of those things.

I see you are finding nicer ways to justify your boorish, antisocial and rule flouting behavior.

"I find fighting smouldering embers with huge flames to be most cathartic. "

Though I find that your admitting the lack of proportion in what you do without remorse is disturbing. I hope that whatever mental anguish is causing you to feel you need this catharsis abates soon. But please until then, please try to be to follow the rules.

I am trying to follow the rules. It is an adjustment. Until recently kindness and politeness has not been a requirement here and much of the "policing" has been done by people rudely shouting others down, one of my first experiences here was being called a "horse's patoot" by a well respected moderator here. I won't deny the truth of the charge. I was being unkind, impolite, argumentative, maybe a little snooty. But that was the culture for much of the forum. No doubt others considered it "wit" as I did.

Bottom line, you need to follow the rules. Policing is not done through name calling here any more. The moderators don't do it anymore (to be fair the moderators that did don't moderate anymore) Most members don't do it anymore. I don't do it anymore and you have no right to do it. If you want someone to take out your anger on, join a boxing gym or get a therapist. But the rules here say

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty.

That means that you are not free to be any of those things. Max's rule change was pretty smart. Now once the culture has changed enough so that most people here are not beating down people who they disagree with, the moderators need only pick off the worst offenders one at a time. As long as you are calling me, Ake, and pete names and/or trying to pick fights with us, every time we offer an opinion, not involving you, on a particular topic you will be at the top of their list.

You and this person. who is nothing but impolite, argumentative, and snooty will be at the top of their list.

From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll - PM
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 11:47 AM

And I still think Musket should be nicer....

Musket doesn't have to be nicer.

He has to NOT be unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty.

You don't have to avoid encouraging musket is his self-appointed crusade to bully opinions he does not like off this forum.

But it makes it harder on everyone, including musket and you when you do. You seem to enjoy the chaos that reigns here up until the point where it is laid at your feet.

I get the feeling that you are undermining Max's rule change that you are not in accord with his idea with how things should be.

How do you feel the "self-policing" should be done? With fighting and rancor? I feel it is best done when everyone tries to follow the rules and they refuse to encourage those who do deliberately break the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 11:51 AM

I see seaman staynes wants to play by his own set of rules!!

Cant you see it is you that is wrong you nasty, little self opinionated, cake eating latchicoe you?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 11:54 AM

Yeah but no but. The troll who is etc tells everyone she fancies me, which I reckon is a secret way of saying she fancies me. Can't blame her, the mirror never lies.

Look Jack, you are trying to reason with me so let me be serious as a bit of a one off.

The rules would prevent the person posting as Akenston from repeating the awful abhorrent hate he propagates, yet because he does it without the word "fuck" that's alright?

You make a point of stereotyping and making sweeping generalisations of rational people, but reacting to that is apparently wrong.

pete insults anyone and everyone who is involved in any way in any branch of science, and says that lack of belief is a belief system, not to mention that the world is a few weeks old. But if you don't respect that irresponsible claptrap, you must be the one at fault ?

If it's all the same to you, I'll keep taking the piss, you'll keep lobbing grenades and pete can keep questioning the age of the universe. Everybody happy.

But in the meantime, it would be nice if hay members of Mudcat could open a thread without having to read that they are perversion and against natural law. It would be nice if, as an idea, Max wrote some rules to ensure they could? Perhaps find a nautical judge to shout "point of order!" when there is a risk that people could read something distressing without having provoked it?

Ditto having to put up with fools who try to bring your lack of belief down to their level.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 11:55 AM

No, I want to play by the rules posted on the "Membership" page.

The previous post could not have been more argumentative.

>>From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll - PM
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 11:51 AM

I see seaman staynes wants to play by his own set of rules!!

Cant you see it is you that is wrong you nasty, little self opinionated, cake eating latchicoe you? <<

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:00 PM

That should say gay, not hay.

I appear to have a homophobic iPad.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:32 PM

Oy,musket keeps attacking me for my non belief, that everything came from nothing via no one................seriously though, musket and co may be foul mouthed antagonists , but I don't get upset about it as I suspect it is obvious to most people ,even those who might otherwise agree with them, who is being unconstructive in their postings.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:40 PM

"The rules would prevent the person posting as Akenston from repeating the awful abhorrent hate he propagates, yet because he does it without the word "fuck" that's alright?"

The rules say that you are free to be anything but the five things listed. "Bigotted in the opinion of Ian. Is not on the list. It is very simple and clear.

I don't stereotype rational people. I have been saying that some people who claim to be atheists share some of traits that they abhor in people of faith. You and two others quickly identified yourselves as such and proceeded to prove my point over and over again. The two others are now behaving much more rationally, while you are refusing to read and understand a very simple and clear sentence written by the owner of this forum.   

As infuriating as pete's lack of logic is, He has not been unkind, he has not been impolite, he has not been argumentative, he has not been snooty toward you or anyone on this forum. You have been all of the above to many people. So have I. But when I realized it was against the rules, I stopped.

>>>If it's all the same to you, I'll keep taking the piss, you'll keep lobbing grenades and pete can keep questioning the age of the universe.<<<

No it is not all to same to me. As long as I am abiding by the rules I will ask see them enforced.

They are only grenades in your apparently confused mind. As I said, I said that "some people on this" forum behaved like the "militant atheists" that Van Der Wall, famous Atheist scientist, was describing. You and a couple of others reacted to that by picking a fight. I'll admit that when you insulted me I tried to police you with your own medicine. That was before I heard of and bought into the rule change.

pete and Ake and I and the several others you berate, have a right to be anything they want except for unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty.

You have the right to the same. You have no right to try to police others by being unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty. It is as simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:44 PM

What could be more foul mouthed than teaching fantasy as fact to impressionable children? Telling them they are sinners? Compared to the beautiful reality of the universe, teaching them a boring restrictive alternative based on superstition and mistrust of others?

I think you will find pete, that promoting reality isn't antagonistic, it's beginning to right a historical wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:47 PM

That is commendable pete. I hereby commend you for saying it. I, on the other hand am tired of Musket calling me names and calling other people names, spreading bile and anger on this forum like uncomposted pig manure on Covent Garden. I would prefer that he took his need to release his anger, which he has recently expressed on this thread and his disproportionate responses, expressed with the "embers", analogy elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:52 PM

>>>
What could be more foul mouthed than teaching fantasy as fact to impressionable children? Telling them they are sinners? Compared to the beautiful reality of the universe, teaching them a boring restrictive alternative based on superstition and mistrust of others?

I think you will find pete, that promoting reality isn't antagonistic, it's beginning to right a historical wrong. <<<

Sigh, you are welcome to right that historical wrong, on this forum if you so chose.

Click on the "membership link" you will see this.

"You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak."

Its very simple and not much to ask. What is it that you do not understand?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 05:15 PM

What could be more foul mouthed than teaching fantasy as fact to impressionable children?

How about inventing an incident that never happened, involving school kids being chopped up and the bits fed to pigs.
That is the product of a very sick mind.
I think that is worse.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 12:12 AM

musket: "...so claiming you shouldn't be ashamed of your odious view on the basis Christians share it is beneath contempt. Marriage is open to all."

Yeah, I met your mother...nice guy!..and your dad, sure had nice boobs!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 01:31 AM

Aye Goofus. Beer does that. He had his toes amputated so he could get closer to the bar.

Nice to see the support for homophobia. Yeah Jerk, he has a right to an opinion, but here in civilisation, we have laws to protect people from having to read incitement to hatred. The worm doesn't live in Dumbfuckistan.

I point out hatred expressed on this website.

For good reason.

Which seem to escape your notice.

At least I hope that's what it is.

Hi Keith. Does nurse know you are up and about ? Feeding pork is one thing, educating it seems to be another thing entirely. For anyone interested in what Keith is waffling on about. I mentioned a media report where in the ethnic conflict African stakes, a gang claiming to be. "Christian" carried out atrocities on communities claiming to be "Muslim." Keith couldn't find a web based account of this particular claim, despite a couple of million of us being informed of it , hence I appear to be a liar.

Possibly a contender for Jerk's adjudication of the rules. There again, don't be silly Musket. The object of the exercise is to allow bigotry to be posted in peace. Silly me.



Anyway, away from the "let's deflect criticism away from odious views and go for Musket instead" which is better by the way than when you type odious bullshit between you, back to the thread.

Curious report yesterday of a man from Afghanistan who was granted leave to stay here for a few years. Those are now up and in the meantime he has lost his Muslim faith. He is claiming religious asylum as an atheist on the grounds that he could be executed on his return, apostate and all that.

Funny thing religion. Till you see the dangerous side.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:31 AM

"... musket keeps attacking me for my non belief, that everything came from nothing via no one..."

As I keep telling you, over and over and over again, pete, it's not a question of BELIEF, or "non belief" it's a question of EVIDENCE. You can believe whatever nonsense you like but if you want to convince anyone else, you have to provide some evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:42 AM

Here is the claim Musket made.
No-one had a memory of such an event.
No news agency has any reference to such an event.
Such an event would be highly memorable and widely reported.
Google finds no trace of it.

: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:36 AM

Can't decide whether to offer it a Christian burial or not.

The children in an Islamic School in Nigeria the other year weren't given a choice. They were cut up and fed to pigs.

I would have mentioned them before but Keith insists this is about Christians being persecuted rather than persecuting.

(That last sentence is also untrue)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:20 AM

A few people have objected to my suggestion that Musket should be nicer, so let me retract that....he should be "more congenial," a "hale fellow well met," and the like...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:27 AM

Who blinked?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,the troll who replaces the troll formally kn
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:49 AM

Barnacle balls is just like a banging door aint he?

And like a banging door he should be shut close!!

He Cant think of anything nice to say about anyone so he goes for two of the nicest people on this thread; me and sweetpants.

When will this nautical nob-head up anchor and sail of into the sunset?

His self centered attitude and self righteous posing is a s bad as that other no mark, old dude and his little tic tocks.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:09 AM

Congenital ? Oh, sorry, I see what you mean Joe.

The snag is, as I have said before.. There are some suspect postings in the BS section, as there should be I suppose. But standing up to bigotry isn't one of them.

Laughing and joking with people who have distasteful views is laughing at those they feel superior to. I can't help that. I'm not a politician and I can't be hypocritical over this.

Some of them debase what you hold dear too, so your restraint isn't so much admirable as confusing to a simple soul like me. (Note, I don't have a soul...).

For instance, watch this..


Oy Keith. I see the Israelis give state funerals to terrorists!



Wait.....


Be patient ....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:01 PM

You say my views on health rates are distasteful Ian....fair enough, you put up an argument that says homosexual men have the same rates of sexually transmitted disease as heterosexuals and I will debate with you on that.

However.....I see no "laughing and joking" in your posts to me or to Christians. they contain vicious abuse cursing and insults, but even someone with a "liberal" perspective would be hard pushed to find any humour there.

Joe....You say Ian should be "more congenial", but seriously, what would you think if we all behaved in the manner that Ian does?
Do you think cursing swearing, insults, name calling in place of reasoned argument are good for the forum? Do you not see what would happen if we all used personal abuse as a weapon?

I know my views are not popular with the majority here, but the figures are true and extremely worrying and as such are a subject for debate.
To ask why these rates apply only to male homosexuals in every country in the world, and why homosexuality is being promoted as a safe and healthy lifestyle while these rates apply, is surely a debatable issue and people arguing on either side of that debate should not be subjected to personal abuse or claims of bigotry?

Personally, Ian's ranting and gibberish has no effect on me, but if these bullying tactics are to be referred to as "less than congenial",
then that is an open invitation for the whole membership to dispense with reason and adopt abuse as a debating tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:48 PM

Ah, shimrod, another assertion, implying evolutionism has evidence to back it ,and creation does,nt. I have offered evidences that suggest that the biblical timeline is more in keeping with the evidence, than the imagined aeons of Darwinism.    I can't recall you offering any evidence at all!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:08 PM

"Personally, Ian's ranting and gibberish has no effect on me, but if these bullying tactics are to be referred to as "less than congenial",
then that is an open invitation for the whole membership to dispense with reason and adopt abuse as a debating tactic. "

Certainly it is an invitation to Musket to continue in he rule breaking.

The logical conclusion is that Joe does not approve of those rules as written. Its like he is saying keep making up nasty things to call people. but be nicer about it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:30 PM

""Bigotted in the opinion of Ian. Is not on the list."

Maybe bigotted in the opinion of all but three or four posters should be.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:36 PM

"pete and Ake and I and the several others you berate, have a right to be anything they want except for unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty."

Are you even aware of the stupidity of that statement and the range of GENUINELY unacceptable behaviour it endorses?

No wonder Musket extracts the urine (is that more the kind of language you accept?)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:48 PM

"To ask why these rates apply only to male homosexuals in every country in the world,"

Well Ake, if you want bigotry accepted as normal, how about lying?

In third world countries HIV/AIDS is rife among heteros (up to 40% infected in many African states), so you are either VERY selective in choosing your statistics, or else a bloody liar.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:58 PM

GUEST, You can click on "membership" and read the rules yourself. I didn't make them up and I won't defend them. I will abide by them if they are enforced or abided by. If you think Musket deserves to carry on his vendetta of unkind words in violation of those rules, why don't you ask Max to add "except for Musket."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:16 PM

Jack and Ake, you certainly have twisted what I said. If Ian/Musket were congenial in these discussions, this would certainly be a better place for an intelligent exchange of ideas. Similarly, if Jack the Sailor could lose his distorted perception of the "rules" and his combative attitude, and be less of a self-righteous prig, this might be a place where an intelligent exchange of ideas could be possible.

As far as I can see, the only offense committed by Ake and Pete in this forum, is that they have dared to express conservative ideas amidst a liberal majority - but they have always done so in a polite and civil manner, and I respect that. And if they didn't express their ideas, what would the liberals have to respond to? For discussion to happen, it has to go in two directions - but in an atmosphere of civility and respect.

And yes, I think that Ian/musket has been unfair in his attacks against others, particularly against Ake. One would think that Ian would be above that sort of nastiness, but apparently not.

And since I have dared to question the conduct of the exquisitely self-righteous Jack the Sailor, he will soon, as in the past, commence to squeal like a stuck pig....

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,The troll formally known as the troll conce
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:24 PM

There you have it jerk..straight from the man himself...how does it feel..phoney?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:29 PM

Ake, I find myself a bit puzzled by the HIV argument you are making and how it pertains to marriage. If you are making the argument on a World wide basis, Trubadour has a point about Africa. Would you like to run it by one more time in an attempt to settle it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:38 PM

I gotta say that to my mind, the one thing likely to reduce the rate of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases among homosexuals, is homosexual marriage. Certainly, there will be many who will violate their marriage vows, but the same is true in heterosexual marriage.

And I'm still trying to figure out how homosexual marriage poses some sort of threat to my heterosexual marriage.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 05:17 PM

"And I'm still trying to figure out how homosexual marriage poses some sort of threat to my heterosexual marriage."

That is what decided me in favor of Gay marriage. As you know, Carol and I got married in our mid forties, so all of the arguments about marriage being for children applied to us as well.

I figured if they thought the argument was sincere they'd come for us next. If they intend to discriminate between us and a gay couple on the basis of a lie then I had to choose the side that was demanding equal rights.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 05:47 PM

...evolutionism[sic] has evidence to back it, and creation does'nt.

There's no such thing as "evolutionism" Pete, except in your mind. However if you meant to say

"evolution has evidence to back it, and creation does'nt."

You would be absolutely correct.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:09 PM

Joe, you have avoided the question of abusive behaviour.

The issues of homosexuality, infection rates, homosexual "marriage", religious faith etc, are all open for debate and Ian is free to state his views on these matters.

Ian uses personal abuse and attempts intimidation in order to deprive others of the right to voice their opinions.

This is the question, what if all, or a majority of members used Ian's tactics?
How long would this excellent forum survive?

Jack....even in Africa, infection rates among male homosexuals are many times that of heterosexuals......CDC has stated clearly that in all countries MSM infection rates are higher than any other demographic.
Marriage does not make people monogamous....I have known of highly promiscuous married couples.......the extended family structure is what keeps society on the rails....no one, or very few want their offspring to think that their parents are sexually loose or have partners outside the family.
That is not to say that couples without children cannot remain faithful to one another, but a secure family structure is the ideal.
Homosexual "marriage" is an Orwellian smokescreen, which gives the impression that all is well within the male homosexual community, while in fact it is suffering an epidemic of sexual infection.
It also stops that particular demographic from being targeted with effective measures to stop the spread of disease within it.

While folks keep repeating that monogamy is the best way of stopping the infection, the disease will keep spreading, as the "marriage" rates amongst MSM are so minute, and as I said already,"marriage" is no guarantee of monogamy.
Marriage rates are falling in all demographics, so why are infection rates only rising in MSM?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:52 PM

Sorry Joe, I missed your post of 4;19.

I would just add, that Jack has been subjected to almost as much abuse as I have, and please don't call me a conservative :0).

Most folks round here think I'm a radical socialist, but mostly I'm just Ake, another Mudcatter who likes to put in his tu'ppence worth....civilly.

I do think that a lot of conservative core beliefs on social issues make sense, and some "liberal" ones are crass stupidity.
I suppose the only label I would be prepared to wear is "Anti-capitalist".....I'm with Francis on that one!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:53 AM

You think I'm being unfair Joe?

I suppose you can read what it writes and form your own opinion but in my opinion there is no place for bigotry. No place for singling out a section of society and blaming it for wider issues.

Presumably no place on Mudcat for gay people to engage in threads without having to put up with wicked debased hatred of them, just for existing. Let alone others having opinions on how equal others are prepared to accept them as.

"Their" behaviour. Fook me gently.... Who are "they?" The worm compounds his ignorance of respectful behaviour even when trying to defend the indefensible! When you come to an answer to that question you will have defined all the descriptions of bigotry I have offered, largely in the direction of the sad individual posing as Akenaton.



Perhaps our respecter of rules might get around to seeing if posting incitement to hatred is on Max's shit list? Slowly but surely our salty matey is seeing the agenda informing Akenhateon's outpourings.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:11 AM

Muskett: "Nice to see the support for homophobia. Yeah Jerk, he has a right to an opinion, but here in civilisation, we have laws to protect people from having to read incitement to hatred. The worm doesn't live in Dumbfuckistan."

Hey, now THAT is more of an accurate example of a 'Freudian Slip'..Yours was inaccurate and a misnomer in application.

You also stated that, .."so claiming you shouldn't be ashamed of your odious view on the basis Christians share it is beneath contempt. Marriage is open to all."

Open to ALL???....except if that applies to YOUR parents, you take it as an insult and offense. Makes me wonder what is underneath your rap, that sees homosexuality as OK 'and open to all'....EXCEPT YOUR PARENTS!!...You got something against homosexuality, and project that people MUST feel the way YOU do, so you accuse them of 'hate'???

A bit telling, Ol' Chap!

As for me, I tend to identify with those I have a couple of things in common with....those who have the will to survive and reproduce....
also referred to as 'Living Beings'.
'Hate' or 'Phobia' is just YOUR take on it....Not where I'm at, at all! Try to think LARGER!!

GfS

P.S. Matter of fact, I don't really have the need to discuss them at all.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:37 AM

"... implying evolutionism has evidence to back it ,and creation does,nt."

pete, there is a vast body of evidence supporting the theory of evolution (don't know what "evolutionism" is). I suggest that you read some of it - rather than just relying on Christian fundamentalist websites and an old book full of myths.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:36 AM

You are thinking large alright Goofus.

Huge large piles of it.

To the more sane people here... There are a few who complain I take the piss.

Where you find yourself being attacked for refusing to entertain hatred and bigotry in a debate, I suppose taking the piss is the only logical response.

Fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 07:15 AM

Ian, your "argument" seems consist of continual repetition of the lie that "Akenaton hates homosexuals". There are a few homosexual couples in the area where I live, with whom I get on quite well. I do repairs to their property and have no problem with them at all.

"Hatred" has nothing to do with it, in fact, on the few occasions that "marriage" has been briefly discussed, they give the opinion that they wish they could be left alone to get on with their lives.
There are three couples that I work for, none of them are "married" or in civil union.
My stance has always been against the activists, many of whom are not homosexual, but "human rights" workers who have an agenda to push.
Legislation being promoted by these people is bad for society and bad for homosexuals, as it obscures the integral problems in this type of sexual behaviour and inhibits treatment programmes.

You refuse to believe the evidence of your own eyes and do not recognise that there IS a problem.

I say immediate action must be taken to stop the epidemic.

Who is the most "hate filled"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 07:42 AM

Behaviour. Treatment programmes....

I preferred it when you were more honest about your irrational hatred and used terms such as perverted, against natural law and "marriage."

Oh, hang on.. You still use that last one.

Immediate action needs to be taken to get the fucking truth out. Snag is, the truth wouldn't sway the likes of you.

Going to get a shower now.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:02 AM

My dictionary defines perversion.

"A turning from the true purpose, use, or meaning"
"Deviation from the normal"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:11 AM

Many people see homosexuality as a perversion, a deviation from "normal" sexual activity.

Do you think that male to male sex is "normal" sexual activity?
In my area of the country, the practice is extremely rare.

As I have said before, some perversions are harmless, but this one appears to be very dangerous indeed, as it contains very high promiscuity rates and very high infection transmission rates.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:51 AM

Ever though that if you were gay, heterosexual sex might be a deviation from the normal ?

By your perverse logic, being ginger is perverse, ergo ginger people are perverted.

Notwithstanding that sex isn't the be all and end all of being gay or straight. Whilst it isn't any of our business, I laughed my head off when in an interview recently, an American baptist pastor asked Stephen Fry what it felt like to have a cock shoved up his rectum. "I don't know." He said. "I personally don't relish the thought of anal sex."

I have no idea how many people in Scotland indulge in anal sex. I went out with a girl from Airdrie for a short while whilst working there, and she wanted me to have a pop, as it were. Not my cup of tea though. I doubt I would use that as evidence that all Scottish women like a bit of back door action.

Unless you know better?

In answer to your question. Normal sexual activity is normal sexual activity. If I were gay and wanted penetrative sex, then yes, it would be normal. As I am what I am, my sex, however it happens to be is normal to me. I don't understand your question?

Oh! Silly me, I do understand.

You sit in judgement of others.

Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:18 AM

So, nothing is perverse if people do it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:33 AM

I think the point is that if a person is comfortable doing something it is not perverted to them. It may seem strange to others but that is what being judgmental is all about. We all do it to some extent. The crux of the argument is where do you draw the line and who draws it? For instance, same sex intercourse may be acceptable to most while sex with children and animals is not. The main point here is that in the former case both parties give their consent. In the second one of the parties is not likely to have agreed. In my opinion it is wrong and counter-productive to label both cases as the same.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:36 AM

"Many people see homosexuality as a perversion, a deviation from "normal" sexual activity."

Homosexuality is a normal variation of sexual behaviour and certainly not a perversion. As I mentioned on another thread this is widely studied and very well understood.

The idea homosexuality is a "perversion" is a cultural trope and has no basis of fact in behavioural studies, biology or any other science for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:37 AM

You are just waffling Ian, as Keith has illustrated.

But you can really do it if you try hard...well done, only one tiny bit of childish name calling in your last post, and at least some attempt at discussion.
Maybe we can end up as friends, I don't hold a grudge.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:51 AM

>>>From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:36 AM

You are thinking large alright Goofus.

Huge large piles of it. <<<

Flagrant violation of the terms of use.

No one is asking you not to express your opinion. You can do it without the sarcasm and personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:59 AM

>>>From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:51 AM



You sit in judgement of others.

Back in your hole worm. <<<<

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:09 AM

Ake, Am I right in thinking you are saying that your only objection to gay marriage is that it is a "smokescreen" for other problems in the gay community?


If so, why would you have any objection to a gay couple marrying one another if they intend monogamy and want the same rights and recognition that straight couples get?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:39 AM

I confess I'm coming to this thread late, and yes, that I've skipped some, so I just might be repeating a point made earlier (though I doubt it).

But I will say plainly that I am an atheist. That is to say that I believe there is no god (singular or plural, capitalized or lower case). This is quite different from saying that I do not believe in a god; that would be much more ambivalent, a weaker statement than my actual position.

But I am NOT an anti-theist, which would be the logically correct name
for "Militant Atheist", I think.

I think this is a distinction which should be kept in mind throughout this thread and throughout this or any other discussion of people's
position(s) with respect to religion and its place (if any) in a civilized world.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:50 PM

I don't know where to start?

Dave the Gnome puts it in a nutshell regarding what is acceptable. Consenting sex by both parties is acceptable.

Still not sure why the fascination with sex is part of this though. After all, not everybody indulges. If we go by the evidence we have, it says anal sex is the most successful way to transmit viruses. After all, the French even stick pain killers up their bottom, as the fastest way to get into the bloodstream. Hence viriaemia and bactoraemia like the bot bot. The other bit of evidence, here in The UK by certain Royal Colleges, in particular The Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh, suggest that recipients of anal sex in The UK are 85 % women. (Sourced by presentation where anal sex is noted for clinically relevance such as colo rectal concerns.) Add that to the estimates Keith A Hole of Hertford keeps throwing around that only a third of undiagnosed HIV affects gay men, and you start to see why it is so frustrating to see people accept the terrible slur that HIV is a gay issue. It is a people issue.

The relevance to this thread.   Excellent example of narrow minded fools spreading propaganda in order to denigrate a section of society. A bit like God botherers slurring rational people, calling them militant atheists just because they don't accept superstition as fact, or wish to be told how to behave.

Oy Jerk! Any chance, when saying I break the rules, of noting Goofus saying my Dad had a pair of tits?

Thought not.

You don't care about any rules really. Only as a tool to gag people who see through your approach. False fool.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 01:20 PM

>> Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:50 PM

I don't know where to start?

Dave the Gnome puts it in a nutshell regarding what is acceptable. Consenting sex by both parties is acceptable.

The relevance to this thread.   Excellent example of narrow minded fools spreading propaganda in order to denigrate a section of society. A bit like God botherers slurring rational people, calling them militant atheists just because they don't accept superstition as fact, or wish to be told how to behave.

Oy Jerk! Any chance, when saying I break the rules, of noting Goofus saying my Dad had a pair of tits?

Thought not.

You don't care about any rules really. Only as a tool to gag people who see through your approach. False fool.<<

Violations of the rules.


Ian Mathers. I don't even comment every time you break the rules. I am certainly not going to comment on someone who does it occasionally and who has improved so much as GfS. The difference between your rudeness and his is that he only does it when provoked and you do it to provoke. Oh yeah, and you do it constantly.


If I was using it as a tool to gag "people" (meaning you) then "people" would be shutting up.

I'm using it as a tool to let you show "people" (meaning you) how stubborn, stupid, rude, ungrateful and antisocial you are being. Max provides this wonderful forum for all of us and you cannot accept or abide by one simple request. Shame on you sir!! Shame Shame Shame Shame!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 01:38 PM

A '70s disco song if I recall. "Shame on you, if you can't pass poo". Or something like that.

Goofus has "improved" eh? Nice to see you really do think you are the arbiter of good taste. (Quoting bubble gum disco songs isn't good taste though.) Who the flying fook are you to decide what is good or bad? As you said , people want to post here, and reckoning on a self righteous prig on a mission jumping on their backs ain't going to be useful. Greater minds than mine have you weighed up. On this thread too....

At least you are comfortable with selecting who and when to complain about. They say ignorance is bliss.

I commend your post to all. I hope many people read it.

We could do with a good laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 01:43 PM

Stu, I don't mean to sound dismissive, but your last post comes over as a sort of excuse?
The norm in sexual behaviour is heterosexual, only a very small section of society practice homosexuality, therefore they can be said to "deviate from the norm"....perverse, as defined in my dictionary.

Ian "hates" ginger hair, :0), but that point is not valid as we are discussing sexual BEHAVIOUR, not race or hair colour....another "smokescreen?"
The same tactics are used to re-define marriage....effectively saying that anyone should be allowed to marry anyone as long as they "love" one another.
Is "love" a cultural trope? "Does it have a basis of fact in behavioural studies, biology or any other science for that matter."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 01:53 PM

Jack, my stance against homosexual "marriage" is chiefly on health grounds, the "smokescreen" stance if you like, but although I am presently undecided about religion, I have much sympathy with those committed people of faith who protest about the re-definition of Christian marriage( marriage blessed by the church). They far outnumber homosexuals and further outnumber the homosexuals who wish to avail themselves of "marriage"
So the rights of the majority are being adversely affected by a small minority.....those rights being not marriage rights, but the right to redefine the what Christian marriage actually means.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:06 PM

Jerk this is getting godamme tedious,..you are are a prick of the first order

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:07 PM

As peace and congeniality seems to have broken out on this here thread, :0) I have decided to bow out for a while and let the green shoots mature. I shall move to the back of the bus and let Jack or Ian take over the wheel.
Happy motoring!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:38 PM

Stu: "Homosexuality is a normal variation of sexual behaviour and certainly not a perversion. As I mentioned on another thread this is widely studied and very well understood.
The idea homosexuality is a "perversion" is a cultural trope and has no basis of fact in behavioural studies, biology or any other science for that matter."

Homosexuality is a normal variation of sexual behaviour.......

'Normal variation'????....not according to the reason for REPRODUCTIVE organs....
You might consider that your(and others) version of 'Normal Variation' would be a self-indulgence...but 'normal'??..and to others, by true definition of the word, it falls under the category as Akenaton CORRECTLY posted..BY TRUE DEFINITION:

Akenaton: "My dictionary defines perversion.
"A turning from the true purpose, use, or meaning"
"Deviation from the normal"

So explain (or don't) how homosexuality is a normal activity for reproduction.

Stu: "The idea homosexuality is a "perversion" is a cultural trope and has no basis of fact in behavioural studies, biology or any other science for that matter."

Stu's preceding comment is based solely on political opinion, and NOT on fact, by any biological definition, and therefore FALSE....but it makes for happy fodder for wannabe activists...but still FALSE!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 04:51 PM

>>> Jerk this is getting godamme tedious,..you are are a prick of the first order <<<

Breaks all of the rules except for being for or against what shall not be talked about.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 05:00 PM

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity - PM
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 02:38 PM

Ian Mathers

For an excellent example of how to conduct yourself on this forum in an energetic matter, without braking the rules, please read the post referred to above.

GfS was not unkind or impolite or and of those things but he did say clearly what he thought was wrong with Stu's opinion.

I think that GfS was dead wrong in a couple of points, but he was gentleman enough and grateful enough to honor Max's request.

It's really not that difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:54 PM

Jack the Sailor: "I think that GfS was dead wrong in a couple of points.."

Yeah?..Where??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 01:26 AM

Well let's start.

The bit beginning with G and ending in oofus. Not much right with that for starters.

What have reproductive organs got to do with marriage? Those who marry and then have children, or those who marry and don't have children. They are all married. Are you saying infertile people should be barred then ? What about gay couples who adopt ? Gay women who undergo IVF from a donor?

You know, I really must do as Jerk says and stop taking the piss out of Goofus's gormless outbursts. After all, when you read what he actually says, it isn't very nice at all... Fodder for wannabe activists? I take it you are a wannabe woman shagger activist then?

Fucking creep.



Add that to your list Jerk. I notice you are politely questioning the stance of our resident queer bashers. Given time, you will be dismissing them rather than engaging with them yourself. Has the penny dropped yet?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:00 AM

Watch it Ian my friend, you're slipping back into childish behaviour, but don't worry i'll try to guide you, just concentrate and keep your eye on the road.
You'll soon get the hang of it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:26 AM

Interesting...

I have been ignoring your pet troll. If I thought you were what your troll infers, I doubt I would be replying, acknowledging your presence or touching a thread you were on. Your homophobia is to be challenged, but if you were as this person says, then you would be ignored.

Tell you what, I say you are accusing me of being someone else, and you reply by apologising.

I won't lower either of us by asking if they are correct. I know of the Seaham findings, I also know some Scottish trainers were involved. I know due to newsletters from greyhound rescue charities I support. You know of course that I take ex racers as pets.

Don't make a mental leap. Your obsession with making me look bad has crossed a line there. I have not acknowledged your troll, so try to respect that.

Please.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:50 AM

I couldn't help but chuckle a few times while reading that, and mused to myself, "Said like a true devotee of 'Militant Atheism' chanting the self-hypnotic mantra, from the 'Talking Point' propaganda script!

Here..I'll give you a couple of 'thoughts'...

Mustblab: "What have reproductive organs got to do with marriage?"

'Just a spoonful of 'sugar' makes the medicine go down..medicine go down..Oh medicine go down..

Mustblab: "What have reproductive organs got to do with marriage?"

Yeah, there's a lot of people committing legal adultery, because they had no reproductive organs...only toys.

Mustblab: "What about gay couples who adopt? Gay women who undergo IVF from a donor?

Right!...In our brave new IVF world you can buy a kid for $19.95...and if you act now, as a special TV offer, we'll throw in a second pair for free... you pay only shipping and handling.

Mustblab: "Fodder for wannabe activists? I take it you are a wannabe woman shagger activist then?"

Naw...I'm a musician...I'm not with the 'party' I'm with the band!


Now, here's something for YOU to consider...and telling if you could get an homosexual to be honest with you, and not tell you what you 'want to hear, so you'll back away....because you're getting too close.....
"Do you really think you are/were not worth passing on your life and being, to your own child?.............................. Why?..................."

And if you hear, "I just never wanted to...." then he's being leery of you. If you got him to open up to you, it may alter your given political adamant, 'reasoning'.

Ironic, as well, with heteros....You hear, "Hi Honey!.....I just got back from the Doctor's...and guess what?!?!!"

..and the guy gets a 'start', in his heart....('oh noooo')"..Uh,..umm What?"

"I'm pregnant!..We're going to have a baby!!"

..and the guy's mood sinks...but being careful he says, "Are you sure??"



...but then some people are worth it, Ol' Chap!!..ya' just gotta put your heart into it!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 05:02 AM

I asked a short while ago for a definition of bigotry.

I never thought it would come from Goofus......

Go on, I shouldn't but I'm curious. What is legal adultery?

Ignoring all the other howlers you have mumbled, that's the one I am most intrigued about.

Notwithstanding your odd view of IVF and adoption.....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:56 AM

"Stu, I don't mean to sound dismissive, but your last post comes over as a sort of excuse?
The norm in sexual behaviour is heterosexual, only a very small section of society practice homosexuality, therefore they can be said to "deviate from the norm"….perverse, as defined in my dictionary."

"Normal variation'????....not according to the reason for REPRODUCTIVE organs....
You might consider that your(and others) version of 'Normal Variation' would be a self-indulgence...
So explain (or don't) how homosexuality is a normal activity for reproduction.

Stu: "The idea homosexuality is a "perversion" is a cultural trope and has no basis of fact in behavioural studies, biology or any other science for that matter."

Stu's preceding comment is based solely on political opinion, and NOT on fact, by any biological definition, and therefore FALSE….but it makes for happy fodder for wannabe activists…but still FALSE!!""

You seem to labouring under the concept that sexual activity is purely reproductive and has no other function beyond reproduction, but this is wrong and biologists have moved away from this hypothesis many years ago. Sexual selection drives many evolutionary and biological processes and to single out same-sex interaction as being not normal is simply incorrect.

Sexual behaviour plays other roles within animal societies (including human) including the bonding of individuals within same-sex groups (lions, some cetaceans) and in Bonobos, our closest living relatives on the planet, same-sex interaction is an intrinsic part of how the structures of their society are established and reinforced. In this context, human and other primate (and mammal) same-sex relationships are utterly explicable biologically and are totally normal, regardless of whatever interpretation any of us put on it.

My 'political' opinion (my opinions on homosexuality are not 'political') is irrelevant; the fact is same sex interactions provide a valuable biological function, and that isn't going to change because anyone thinks it's 'perverse'. We all interpret this according to our own particular cultural viewpoint, which is subjective and as far as biological and behavioural science is concerned, meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 07:15 AM

Stu, no matter what we USE sexual intercourse FOR, nature gave us reproductive organs to ensure the survival of the species by reproduction.
Nature made sexual intercourse pleasurable, not so it could be used to sell perfume, mens mags, or fast cars, but to ensure that we reproduce as often as possible

Even if you view sexual intercourse as simply a vehicle for sexual pleasure, the norm is still heterosexuality and a huge majority of humans are repulsed by any same sex behaviour.

The definition is "deviation from the norm".

I repeat what Keith said,...."so anything is permissible so long as we do it?"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 07:47 AM

Ian you have twice mentioned the "troll", I take it you mean Guest (Seaham cemetery)...I have no idea what this person is implying,I know nothing about Seaham cemetery.

In all the years that I have kept greyhounds, I have had a few which required to be put to sleep, either through old age(pets after their racing career, ), through very serious injury(I have nursed dogs with moderate injuries like hock or muscle tares, back to health), or cancer, which is common in the breed.

All work was done by the registered vet at my local track, a long established and respected business of over 50 years.
All this can be verified if required.
If this person(the troll) or you, are trying to implicate me in any kind of cruelty to greyhounds, you better be very careful what you say on these pages.....the greyhound community take a dim view of those who falsely stir up aggression against one of their number.

If you know anything about this person, please advise him/her on what I have written.

I have no intention of addressing the matter further, unless the person makes him/her self known to me.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM

I repeat what Keith said,...."so anything is permissible so long as we do it?"

No, no and a big number no. Have you read my reply to that comment and Muskets response to that? Nothing that forces another person into doing something they do not want or have not agreed to should be permissible. Anything happening between consenting adults should be considered their business and no-one else's.

Why class homosexual activity along with pedophilia, bestiality and a host of other unsavoury activities when it is blatantly obvious that they are as different as chalk and cheese. Unless it is to make people believe that consensual sex between adults is also unsavoury?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 08:24 AM

My final word on this matter.
I have just googled "Seaham Cemetery", and found what you and your friend were referring to. A man who ran a "business" disposing of unwanted dogs, chiefly greyhounds, but also strays and injured dogs brought to him by the police. The man stated that the RSPCA knew of his "business"
The article states that this person disposed of "up to" 10 000 dogs in a ten year period, from the 1990's.

All racing dogs are now chipped and no respectable vet will kill a healthy dog.....the rules in greyhound racing are very strict. All retired dogs must be rehomed.

None of this has anything to do with me, as I live and race hundreds of miles from Seaham, under GBGB rules.
I can only imagine that the "troll" has read this article and has attempted to link me to it, to undermine my arguments or credibility on this forum.


Hope this puts your mind at rest regarding my character Ian, wouldn't like you to think I walk around leaving a trail of slime behind me? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 08:33 AM

Bloody hell, I reckon Akenhateon isn't in the same league as Goofus. His use of big words might look impressive to some fools. Poor Akenhateon can only repeat drivel and make simple childish conclusions, so long as they support his hatred of gay people.

Goofus brings homophobia to a new level. I don't know if I am complimenting the turd or not there?

By the way, Akenhateon, you still owe me an apology for assuming I was the bloke living in a cemetery. I find it best not to feed trolls. As I said, I take your word that you were not involved in the awful events.

So, let's take stock. Two loving caring married people make love in bed, turn the light out and go to sleep. They happen to both be men.

Eight blokes, wearing gimp masks, three women covered in oil and studs in their nipples and a sheep have a sex session. The sheep was female and no willy inadvertently ended up stuck up the bottom of another bloke. One of the women falls pregnant.

Just trying to ascertain which is normal, which is debased. We can take consent for granted in all aspects other than the sheep, who isn't covered under The Mental Capacity Act 2005, but for the purpose of this exercise, let's assume she was up for it. I'm a Derbyshire lad, I can tell when no means no and when it means maybe.

Some here reckon I take the piss. I reckon I just point out where others do. Desperate bigotry requires desperate justification eh?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 08:48 AM

Ian, there is no point responding to your latest post, it is in comprehensible.
Watch the speed limit!!!

Guest (SC) If you are try to insinuate any ill treatment of grey hounds by me.....please be specific. I don't understand why you would attempt to link me to actions which took place hundreds of miles away.

My racing dogs are now at Sittingbourne, Romford and Wimbledon, but they have only been in England a few months?
Are you one of the anti greyhound racing people? I f so I will open a new thread, I would be interested to discuss the issue with you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:01 AM

Crossed posts. I did say I am not acknowledging the troll interested in the awful greyhound business.

My post was about your unsavoury views on gay lifestyle you posted a few up, or all the bloody time actually, but that's another story.

I was also showing my dismay of Goofus thinking sex is some thing to do with marriage and marriage is something to do with procreation. Your nodding in agreement with him isn't a sign of anything other than your predictability. Possibly don't even know what it is, except it is aimed at me. Your automatic assumption I was your greyhound stalker was bad enough....

Don't call him my friend. The accusation was appalling if he has no proof. If he has, then he should take it to the police,not Mudcat.

Your character doesn't need slurring, trust me.......

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:24 AM

>>>
Mustblab: "What have reproductive organs got to do with marriage?"

'Just a spoonful of 'sugar' makes the medicine go down..medicine go down..Oh medicine go down..

Mustblab: "What have reproductive organs got to do with marriage?"

Yeah, there's a lot of people committing legal adultery, because they had no reproductive organs...only toys.

Mustblab: "What about gay couples who adopt? Gay women who undergo IVF from a donor?

Right!...In our brave new IVF world you can buy a kid for $19.95...and if you act now, as a special TV offer, we'll throw in a second pair for free... you pay only shipping and handling.

Mustblab: "Fodder for wannabe activists? I take it you are a wannabe woman shagger activist then?"

<<<

The use of "Mustblab" is unkind, though some might argue that it is a proportional response to "Goofus." You know fighting embers with embers.. I'll won't risk the dilemma of Joe and the limerick by saying whether or not I enjoyed it in spite of myself.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:35 AM

>>>From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 05:02 AM

I asked a short while ago for a definition of bigotry.

I never thought it would come from Goofus......

Go on, I shouldn't but I'm curious. What is legal adultery?

Ignoring all the other howlers you have mumbled, that's the one I am most intrigued about.

Notwithstanding your odd view of IVF and adoption..... <<<

So close! Just one word away from showing a molecule of respect for Max and the members of this forum.   Just one measly too often repeated insult! Come on lad!! Keep trying! You can get there.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:39 AM

"Your character doesn't need slurring, trust me......."

Your remark above validates my little joke Ian....thank you.

You know no more than GUEST (SC) about my character, you do know my views on homosexual health rates, religion, and Capitalism.
Do you define ones character by their views on these subjects? or in the "world according to Ian", do we "non messiahs" not deserve an opinion?

Keep looking in that mirror!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:44 AM

"I repeat what Keith said,…."so anything is permissible so long as we do it?""

I'm not interested in arguing philosophical points, I can see you won't be persuaded.

I am however stating the fact that sexual behaviour includes activities that goes beyond those required for reproduction: they are also used in bond reinforcement within same-sex groups and the establishment of hierarchies within some animal groups. In fact, 75% of Bonobo sexual activity is non-reproductive, apparently. Do you only use your arms for waving?

This is an observable fact, not an opinion. Google it and read the volumes already published in peer-reviewed journals. Same-sex interaction is widely observed in many animal groups, including humans. It's a variant of normal sexual behaviour.

What is being argued here is how we as a society treat those who engage in same-sex relationships, and I'll leave you guys to sort that out.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:52 AM

Do you only use your arms for waving?

Maybe something else starting with 'wa' and finishing with 'ing' too. Oh, hang on, I guess that would be perverted...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:56 AM

GfS, other posters have covered every point of yours I disagreed with.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 10:07 AM

"Anything happening between consenting adults should be considered their business and no-one else's."
Anything? I do not think that is the case Dave.
In the case of incest, sexual intercourse is criminalised, not for health reasons, but for societal stability.
Not so very long ago I remember two close relations offered to be sterilised so they could continue their relationship....the offer was refused and the male subsequently committed suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 10:31 AM

>>
Stu, no matter what we USE sexual intercourse FOR, nature gave us reproductive organs to ensure the survival of the species by reproduction.
Nature made sexual intercourse pleasurable, not so it could be used to sell perfume, mens mags, or fast cars, but to ensure that we reproduce as often as possible <<

"Nature gave us" is not a very scientific or realistic way to describe how these things came about, but lets go with that.

There are also no rules in nature that bar us from finding new uses for the things "Nature gave us." Nature gave us opposable thumbs so that we could peel bananas and to grip branches to swing from them. After five million years we have progressed to the point where that same grip can be used to "pleasure" ourselves and double click on internet porn.

Stu's example of the bonobo is very illustrative. They have a very complex social structure built around dominant females rubbing their junk together.

Would you dare to say that nature did not give lady bonobos their overly large and obvious lady parts to facilitate these homoerotic (to the bonobos) displays of affection?

Have you done a social science class? What is the norm. Is much more complex and nuanced than you have said in this thread. Norms vary from community, tribe to tribe. On the one hand the Norm among say the Puritans of colonial times would be different than the norm among the Romans of Caligula's court. You might think that both societies were outside "the norm" But obviously within their own group, they were not.

Talking about the "norm" and "perversion" is not at all useful in determining what is permissible in society. A couple might enjoy rubbing anchovy paste on each other and licking it off. Certainly that would not be the norm. But it would be no reason to limit the size of purchases of anchovy paste. It may have been the norm to go out to Pub Friday night get a snoot full, slap the wife when she asks for the rent money and impose cold flacid semiconsensual coitus on her. What is the norm is not always right.

Unprotected, promiscuous sex was the norm for many younger people until the AIDS epidemic. No one said it was perverted not to be that way. But lots thought it odd. Now that is not the norm. Things change. People adjust. Societies adjust. Norms adjust to the times. Nature gave us that ability.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 10:41 AM

>>
Not so very long ago I remember two close relations offered to be sterilised so they could continue their relationship....the offer was refused and the male subsequently committed suicide.<<

This is not an argument in your favor. It poses far more questions than it settles. BTW From a Biblical perspective the story of Adam and Eve and Noah, if taken literally, imply that a lot of incest happened in the booting and rebooting of humanity. Aslo in Noah's case speaking of what nature gave us, incest must have been rampant in the repopulation of the unclean animals.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 10:51 AM

I have no idea why incest is criminalised. Apart from it is relatively boring. Looks like a red herring in this case. Besides, if that is the only example you can come up with against consenting adults being left alone, it is a pretty poor argument anyway. The number of cases must be absolutely tiny compared to the number of homosexual relationships.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:06 AM

The reason Dave is that it is believed incest would upset the balance of society.....the norm was heterosexual marriage and since heterosexual marriage has gone into decline, so has society there are now huge numbers of single parent families....causing bewildered and insecure children and additional cost to the benefits agencies.

But, although heterosexual marriage rates are falling and homosexual "marriage" and union rates are rising a little, only amongst MSM are STD infection rates increasing.
Does that point to Homosexual "marriage" as a cure, or even a control on infection rates......Doesn't look like it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:31 AM

"Does that point to Homosexual "marriage" as a cure, or even a control on infection rates......Doesn't look like it. "

I don't know of anyone on this Earth who thinks of Gay marriage as control on the spread of STDs. Those gays I know of who have married say it is an expression of love and commitment. I have no reason to doubt that they are being honest about that. I would expect them to be as sentimental as me and that is why I got married.

There are suggestions and rules of hygiene for all human interactions. If straight people are careful about sex, they greatly decrease the odds of getting sick. Same for gays. Statistics suggest that there are some groups of people who are less careful than others. There is no causal effect shown between that and marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM

Several people here have suggested just that, Jack, that "gay marriage" equates to monogamy and is likely to have the greatest effect on rising infection rates.

I maintain that this argument is a "smokescreen" and does more harm than good.
More frequent testing and contact tracing in "at risk" groups (MSM being by far the group most "at risk") is required before any impact will be made on halting the epidemic.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM

"The reason Dave is that it is believed incest would upset the balance of society."

Honestly, I think the reason was more likely "the Bible says so." But I think the Bible said so because people who wrote the Bible observed that close relatives who had offspring had to deal with birth defects. Not to mention the issues in the family dynamic if one member wants to do it while the other does not or is too young to decide.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:46 AM

You are correct about the "family dynamic" Jack, that is covered in what I referred to as societal imbalance.
Perhaps I should have made my meaning more clear.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 01:17 PM

A bit of homework would not go amiss. Various studies and the relaxing of the law some places shows no serious increase in birth defects. I have no axe to grind here so you can look it up yourselves but, as I said before, red herring.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 01:50 PM

Well, it's not my red herring Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 02:57 PM

So at least you know the answer to the question of where Cain got his wife from, jack. They were clear back then from any harm coming from that. And it was,nt till Moses that it was prohibited.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 03:24 PM

But after Cain slew Abel, he fled to the Land of Nod, which was East of Eden. Now, where did that come from, who populated it to reject him, where did they all come from?...

& re the incest bit: read the story of Lot & his daughters, Gen XIX, 30-36.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:28 PM

Muskrat: "Goofus brings homophobia to a new level."..and this one, "I asked a short while ago for a definition of bigotry.
I never thought it would come from Goofus......"

Homophobia and bigotry has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about...that's in YOUR head!

...and speaking of bigotry...do you got something against people who got married, guy and girl, because they LOVE each other, made love, because they LOVE each other, conceived KNOWINGLY, because they loved each other, had their own baby, stayed together, because they loved each other, funneled that LOVE into their child, because they all loved each other, grew older together, Because they Loved each other....and the child(ren) inherited that, and were nurtured with that....continued on the values that brought them into the world.....

Not divorced, because of some selfish whim, not took in a bum of a guy, because she didn't compromise her intuitions, made a lot excuses, and rationalizations to get abortions, re-married 3 or more times...always blaming someone else....stuck on welfare to get by, while the Ol' man is pursuing 'career opportunities', and new people to fuck..not even paying child support....
Isn't it time that we look UP to people with higher consciousness, than raise up the degenerate, and validate stupid excuses, and animal depravity???
Are you hostile to people who can be successful while being responsible in their care and behavior to their bodily systems???...and not pretending to be something they are not....redefining anything that is wholesome or 'good'..instead of living in it...
...and then call people bigots and homophobes, because they are sick of stupid activists trying to rub their nose in bullshit???

Has NOTHING to do with bigotry or homophobia...and in my above descriptions, I never even mentioned anything about homosexuals.....

BTW, people who HAVE done the aforementioned loving and raising of kids, by their first one and only 'Love'.....tend to agree....it has NOTHING to do with 'hate'....or being foolish and having to make excuses for it...or gathering a movement of like-minded lames!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:31 PM

Jack the Sailor: "GfS, other posters have covered every point of yours I disagreed with."

Chicken!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:47 AM

Why do you want to argue with me? Won't you be distracted from your conversations with them?

Musket is not a homophobe but he may be a bit of a gingerphobe.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 01:25 AM

Too bloody true I am! Ingrowing toe nails have reached epidemic proportions. I suggest all ginger people, regardless of whether they own those curved toe nail clippers be forcefully subjected to testing for inflammation of big toe.

If we don't, society will break down.

Goofus. At least attempt to frame your odd yet suspect sinister bullshit in plain English. It is hard to read so most probably won't bother. I'd hate you to feel people have tacit agreement of your weird views based on not bothering challenging them.

My experience is that lack of challenge leads to thinking it is through agreement in the minds of bigots.

Notice that Jerk, err Jack? I didn't break any rules there. A bit of parody, a bit of reality check for reality's fugitive.

There you go!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 01:50 AM

I never thought Musket was homophobic...and neither am I...sometimes people get all wound up in political agendas, or the propaganda surrounding an agenda, and start believing shit that isn't even remotely true...even passing laws based on false information and bad science.
Being as 'some' on here fancy themselves as pontifically brilliant, they process information that is emotionally charged, but basically rooted in nonsense. If they were that brilliant, then it seems to me that we'd be RAISING people's awareness, rather than basing policies aimed at the lowest common denominator of responsibility!!
Have you noticed that the same people who are anti cigarettes or anti gun, because they can be harmful, even deadly, are the same people who kick sand all over Akenaton, and demean him, because he is very against HIV/AIDS..which just so happens to be equally harmful, even deadly....and if a person walked into a crowded area with a loaded gun, what a fucking lunatic..and blame the gun!!..BUT if a person walked into the same crowd with HIV/AIDS looking to buttfuck somebody, he becomes the 'sacred cow' of the same quasi-pseudo 'activists'...and we must not hurt their feelings at any cost!!..or you're a 'bigot'!!
What a load of pig-shit!
Sufficeth to say these same assholes, are 'pro-death'..when it suits them, as in free abortions for every irresponsible bitch who gets knocked up....and everybody else has to pay for it, whether it is against their understanding and relationship with God!!...so the next step is to try to kill God...OH!..but wait a minute....there is no God, for them..How fucking convenient!
The same idiots rail 'Pete from seven stars link'...when they have not the remotest clue as to his EXPERIENCE in HIS relationship to God. Pete may come off as a bit of a fundamentalist...but I bet you that he has prayed for certain things or circumstances...or even for a greater capacity to LOVE...and then when the prayer is answered, some jerk off is going to tell him that it never happened????? Why??..Because the prayers weren't cleared by 'Party Headquarters'???
Can't you just see a newborn baby in the arms of the mother while the father is looking on.....just hoping with all their hearts that the kid turns out to be a homosexual?????????????
GET FUCKING SERIOUS!!!...Would the reason they DON'T hope that is because they are 'homophobic bigots'??..Fuck no!..Matter of fact, it's the furthest thing from their minds....and if somebody wants to bitch about that, too...fuck somebody, get her pregnant, have the baby and raise it to be homosexual...that is because it is such a 'hip' place to be!..........Usually when the kid grows up and gravitates to being homosexual, it is DEVASTATING to the parents!..(not to mention the psyche of the kid!).
...and I'm not going to go around that idiotic 'genetic' determined horse-crap again, either!.....nor do I really want to talk about this bullshit any further, with ideologues who don't know diddly-squat about the science of it....but manage to pull up some stupid link to a study, funded by more political hacks, who have been bought and paid for!

Homosexuals can do whatever they fucking want....and now that assholes have LOWERED the standard for marriage to being near meaningless, they want in on it too, with the same degree of acknowledgment as someone who married, with the intention of raising their own kids, wrought by that love and that relationship....and 'adopting' merely for having an accessory is hogwash, too!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 08:35 AM

Do you feel better for that Goofus?

I reckon a puppy died when you posted it.

Before you go off on one, just remember there are many reasons for the legal (noting to do with religion) contract called marriage. It is about loving each other. No room in the bed for the bearded interloper unless you want him. Do you think that as my second marriage isn't going to bear children that we lowered the concept? Howsabout an old couple in the 80s then? Shouldn't they get married? Perhaps you should get a test to see if you fire blanks or are barren. Make it illegal for them to get married?

Tosser.

Stupid gormless tosser.

You are right on one thing though. Gay people can do what the fuck they want. So can you. So can the next person you set eyes on.

Celebrate that you can offer such odious hurtful bile without fear of legal retribution. Just as I celebrate that I can point. Out what a disgusting creep you really are.

I am considering stopping my dog from playing with you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 09:20 AM

Musket, You can get your point across without the use of the words "tosser" or "Goofus"

GfS, you can get by without calling people Jerk offs.


"and now that assholes have LOWERED the standard for marriage to being near meaningless, "

Funny, I would blame that on my parents generation, where role models like Burton and Taylor got as many divorces as they could afford and threw on new spouses as many times as they bought mink coats and Rolexes. I would blame that on a 50% divorce rate. It wasn't so long ago when, if there were a forum like this, the discussion might have centered on whether divorce should be legal.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 11:00 AM

Aye, and many years ago, people had to suffer in loveless marriages. The taboo around divorce went a long time ago. Women can leave abusive husbands etc.



When berating me, you said I called him a tosser. Not true. I called him a gormless tosser.

He answers to Goofus, just out of interest. Just as he answers to Fugitive from Sanity. The cap well and truly fits.

Funny how you can read reactionary bile that denigrates whole sections of society, then respond by picking up on his calling people a jerk off. A bit like telling Oswald Mosely his black shirts show perspiration and some people could find that offensive.....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 11:31 AM

The point is, that in any society everyone cannot behave exactly as they like.
Health and social consequences are always taken into account.(Polygamy incest, group marriage etc)
The demise of marriage is not something to be celebrated it is the result of a sustained "liberal" attack on religion. It may result in more personal freedom, if freedom is even definable, but is certainly bad for the wellbeing of children and the health of society at large.

No point in citing isolated cases( "we are happily married and don't want/cant have children")....well that's a shame, but the vast majority do want/ can have children and a secure family structure is accepted as the best way of nurturing and bringing them up.

Personal "freedom" in this context is simply selfishness in disguise.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:46 PM

>>When berating me, you said I called him a tosser. Not true. I called him a gormless tosser.<<<

Rule violation. Argumentative. But my main objection is tediousness.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:51 PM

>>>
Funny how you can read reactionary bile that denigrates whole sections of society, then respond by picking up on his calling people a jerk off. A bit like telling Oswald Mosely his black shirts show perspiration and some people could find that offensive.<<<<

Funny how you can be shown the same few simple words dozens and dozens of times and still not understand them.

"You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak."

I don't see anything there about no being free to express "reactionary bile that denigrates whole sections of society," He is allowed to do that under the rules. Under the rules, you are not allowed to call him a Goofus. Its really really really clear.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 01:06 PM

You thick twat.

(Rule 4, subsection B para 8.4 applies.)

So, reactionary bile that denigrates whole sections of society doesn't fall under "unkind," "impolite" or argumentative?

You can say, as Akenhateon keeps trying in his simple childish fashion, that gay people aren't really married, and that they can't form a secure family structure, yet Goofus is offensive? (He is, but I was referring to the term.)

Don't you think there are any gay people who read Mudcat then? Don't you think rational respectable people have every right to feel offended by hatred, regardless of whether it is aimed at them? Perhaps I should call you Jack after all. As in "I'm alright Jack."

Clearly, whoever puts themselves up as self styled guardian of some fictitious rule book shouldn't be you. You exhibit no sense of proportion, no sense of reality and make a point of shouting at people who question bigotry.

Perhaps a view could be made of that too.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 01:29 PM

"Clearly, whoever puts themselves up as self styled guardian of some fictitious rule book shouldn't be you. You exhibit no sense of proportion, no sense of reality and make a point of shouting at people who question bigotry."


fictitious? Click membership on the first page of this website. It is there. You don't have much credibility if you can't do that simple thing.

If you did, you would find that we are ALL free to " be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak."

I am not required to demonstrate a sense of proportion, which by the way is an odd request from you who claims to fight embers with flames because it is "cathartic" Do you somehow feel that your flames are proportional to others' embers? I am not required to demonstrate to you my "sense of reality." I am only required to "be anything you (I)want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak."

If you feel that GfS is being unkind to unnamed undetected offended Gays who may read his posts, don't you feel that it would be a lot more constructive to tell him that rather than simply calling him "goofus."

You are free to point out anything that you feel is wrong with GfS's posts as long as you go to the membership page that Max wrote, read the rules and follow them.

Your best defense against me "berating" you for breaking the rules is to be a little more grown up and clever and to stop calling people names. Its not a difficult concept.

Ian Mather you are not "pointing out bigotry." You are calling people names and berating them. If anyone on this forum is shouting. The shouting is lead by you. If you see shouting in the posts where I point out that you are disrespecting this forum with your behavior. The shouting is quoted and the words are yours. My words are quiet, calm, cold and unemotional.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 05:36 PM

The point Jack, is that Mr Mather does not want to be reasonable or play by the rules, his purpose is to silence discussion not encourage it. He has said that on many occasions....according to Ian there is no room on Mudcat for discussion of homosexual health statistics or views on homosexual "marriage", which do not correspond with his.

Mr Mather's bad behaviour is a tactic, which thankfully is not working; that's why I love this forum, it contains many real liberals and few Orwellian reproductions

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 06:15 PM

I think he just like to call people names. There are much easier ways to discourage discourse on those topics, such as not bringing them up so much.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 06:51 PM

'Personal freedom' at the cost of someone else's safety or well-being, is NOT freedom!

..and as far as the lame excuse about the last generation's 'role models'...maybe the answer doesn't lay in emulations of loose behavior. Nobody forced people to look up to idiots, then call them 'celebrity idols'.

Perhaps, (and I know the 'so-called liberals hate this term) PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY just might be something to instill in people, rather than bailouts, 'safety nets', taxing others to compensate for rampant irresponsible loose behavior, might just be a novel idea.

In not that long ago, 'ancient Rome' there were 'vomitoriums'...where, when people ate so much that they were stuffed full, they could go into this room, and with the use of a feather, cause themselves to throw up, then clean up so they could go back and gorge themselves some more...though it was the common practice of the affluent, and NOW generally people think that was pretty disgusting and decadent, .....but abortion clinics are just dandy, right?...and serving much the same purpose....and don't chant the mantra of 'rape or incest...that is a different matter.

Here are some quotes by Margaret Sanger, founder of 'Planned Parenthood'(Vomitorium of the irresponsible, complete with revolving doors):

"The most merciful thing that the large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."

"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."

"Give dysgenic groups [people with "bad genes"] in our population their choice of segregation or [compulsory] sterilization."

"Article 1. The purpose of the American Baby Code shall be to provide for a better distribution of babies… and to protect society against the propagation and increase of the unfit.
Article 4. No woman shall have the legal right to bear a child, and no man shall have the right to become a father, without a permit…
Article 6. No permit for parenthood shall be valid for more than one birth."

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

THESE are quotes from Sanger..THIS IS a 'So-called liberal' HERO!!!!, while at the same time they oppose any reference to homosexuals being predominant carriers of the HIV/AIDS virus, and taking ANY steps to single them out for testing or regulating or even acknowledgement!!!!

..and for 'ideologues' sakes, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT HINTING TO THEM ABOUT 'PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY'...or you're a homophobic bigot!!..a 'religious crackpot'....a 'perceived' hater.....

...and then they wonder why a vast majority of people are sick and tired of them getting away with being shills for the multinational corp-conglomerates...frankly I'm pretty fed up with their shallow, short-sighted, hypocritical bullshit!.....and wrapping it up in rhetorically pretentious self-righteous rap of 'personal freedom'.

"...and you think we're talkin' 'bout somebody else"..Zappa, from 'Plastic People'

Fuck them in their pompous, self-righteous asses....it would be brain food!!

GfS

P.S. There IS one 'benefit' though...any woman who would kill her child, so she could keep fucking idiots, would probably make a shitty mom, anyway!..besides, there's the probability that she's spreading STD's in the process of having 'fun' with her 'personal freedom'!! The only reason idiots like that have cunts...is so that idiot men would even talk to them!..maybe even take them home to meet Mama!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:19 AM

All I know is that blaming gays for problems with marriage in general is far fetched.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 01:18 AM

Well, we're making progress!
...though it's 'politically incorrect' to even hint that the women, have anything to do with failed marriages...even 'domestic abuse'.
You can thank the exploitation of women by the 'woman's movement' for that....in REALITY, you can thank the Rockefellers for that one...they wanted to increase the tax base, so they financed a huge part of the woman's movement....sorta like the Koch Brothers and the TEA party...or $oro$, and all his $henanigan$...but that's another subject. Thanks to them, we have MANY broken homes, and single parents...but everybody's 'equal', right???....and the suckers and victims still breathe that sweet lie!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 01:31 AM

GfS, Margaret Sanger was a racist and favored eugenics. True, she was a strong advocate for birth control, but she was NEVER any kind of "Liberal hero."

Even though those who have no concept of what Liberal philosophy is all about claim--erroniously--that she is.

And, of ciourse, those who maintain that a woman's place is in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant. NOT Liberals.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:13 AM

Well their place sure isn't in the workplace as a single mom, because some shit left her after knocking her up!
You'd agree to that...wouldn't you?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:37 AM

Ok. That worked.

I said quite a lot but then threw in a scrap of text about rules. Jerk homed in on that, completely disregarding everything pertinent to his stupid illogical statement that Goofus and the worm have every right to propagate hatred.

What's up? Is it that you don't wish to offend bigots or some other reason ? Nothing wrong in offending offence you know. My Dad and many others made a point of it from 1939 to 1945. Presumably so people didn't have to put up with the idea of blaming sections of society for the failings of all. To have the freedom to live your own life.

Yet here we are,disgusting little shits such as Alex / Akenaton spew hatred and bile and you know what? Members of religious cults refuse to condemn them for it. Church leaders perpetuate a two lane society (three, I keep forgetting the fundamental misogyny.). So fools get confused even if their gut instinct is equality.

Hang your bloody head in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:48 AM

Why have both of these 'Militant Atheism' threads degenerated into tedious slanging matches about homosexuality/homophobia? Why not start another thread about homosexuality/homophobia which others can choose whether or not to read or participate in?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM

I would agree Shim, but people like Ian have no wish to DISCUSS these matters sensibly, he simply produces a continual stream of abuse.

To Ian these matter should not be discussed reasonably as there is a possibility of the truth getting out.
For months he denied the validity of the health figures for male homosexuals, and anyone mentioning them was jumped on and called a homophobe, bigot, cunt, bastard, shit, worm etc, for doing so.
I may say, without much or any protest from you or most of the membership......with a few honourable exceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 05:37 AM

Shimrod: "Why have both of these 'Militant Atheism' threads degenerated into tedious slanging matches about homosexuality/homophobia?"

I don't know about everybody else, but I believe the topic was more aimed at 'Personal Responsibility'..and just cited an example or two...and as far as I was concerned, I spent more time posting in regards to 'loose' behavior...both men and women.

I also stated: "..and for 'ideologues' sakes, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT HINTING TO THEM ABOUT 'PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY'...or you're a homophobic bigot!!..a 'religious crackpot'....a 'perceived' hater..."

Knee jerk re-actions to the conditioning from dishonest propaganda..stuff like that....and, abortions..and hypocrisy.....take your pick.....don't get obsessed with any of the 'examples'.
Fair enough?

Firth: "GfS, Margaret Sanger was a racist and favored eugenics. True, she was a strong advocate for birth control, but she was NEVER any kind of "Liberal hero."

Come on..Jeez, Don!... she is the founder of Planned Parenthood!!!!.....listen to the 'so-called liberals' scream bloody murder at the thought of closing any number of their sacred temples!
'Atheists', too....no sweat off their backs...no God??..kill everything in sight!..especially anybody, young or old who doesn't agree!...make sure there is no one left who will make us feel uncomfortable!...and NO!!, There is no box to think outside of!!

G'Night...

G'fs

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 09:31 AM

Why stop at queers Alex?

If you want to disguise hate as debate, bring in niggers, Pakis, pikeys. The list is endless.

Anyone other than you in fact. No problem offending people for the crime of existing so long as you just call it debate.

Sorry for trying to stifle it. Where do we start? What's the most effective type of pogrom? No, we couldn't do that one. Liberals wouldn't like it. They spoil all the fun, the stuck up bastards.



Excuse me, anyone got a bucket?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 09:58 AM

Have you ever considered a HAT instead? Your comprehension of others opinions would improve considerably Ian.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:15 AM

Since when was incitement to hatred an opinion?

Personality disorder maybe. But opinion is stretching it a bit.





I wish that glue would finish drying. I am logging on and reading bile instead of getting the bloody banjo fixed for a gig tonight. I try to avoid songs with a moral purpose but since reading some of the shit he comes out with, I have resurrected my version of Si Khan's Curtains of Old Joe's House.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:28 AM

>>>Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:37 AM

Ok. That worked.

I said quite a lot but then threw in a scrap of text about rules. Jerk homed in on that, completely disregarding everything pertinent to his stupid illogical statement that Goofus and the worm have every right to propagate hatred. <<<

Flagrant disrespect for the rules of this forum and its members.

Shimrod, I'm sure that you've noticed that Musket's tactic is to bring up those subjects every time he is asked to stop acting like a bully in a school yard. He also tends to call other people bigots while using pretty offensive stereotypes. I suspect that is the answer to your question.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:59 PM

So pointing out hatred is wrong eh, sailor boy?

I guess I'll just have to be wrong then. Never thought being offended by bigotry was a fucking tactic.

Have fun in the playground with your homophobic play pals.

You know, I doubt you are a bad man really, so eventually perhaps you might even understand why so many people here are sick, in many senses, of victimisation of whole groups of society, of misogyny, of attempts to point at innocent people and call them a problem that needs dealing with.

Whilst waiting for the penny to drop, don't mind if I shake the vending machine a bit?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 01:08 PM

Demonstrating hatred toward others, especially other forum members, is very wrong Ian Mather. You ought to knock it off.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 01:34 PM

Musket: "So pointing out hatred is wrong eh, sailor boy?"

No, but making up hatred, out of other people's posts, when there is none, is pretty stupid..AND diverts the thread to avoid discussing issues, in ways you haven't considered is.

Shallow accusations of 'hatred and bigotry', projected out of YOUR head, does NOT prove any valid point, other than you like to accuse others, to whom you can't seem to make a valid point.
Perhaps you should try understanding something out of your own VERY narrow box, constructed out of flimsy 'talking points' propaganda that you (along with a lot of others)bought into, while being manipulated by the very people, who brought you(and a lot of others) a load of crap to believe in...which has been turning out to be quite false.

Oh, and BTW, you are not convincing anybody of anything, because instead of putting forth valid points, you're just spewing hatred, and fear that your programmed conceptual world is crumbling, in the light of truth and common sense.

Snap now, and avoid the rush!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link.
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 01:57 PM

Mithe,.....being as Adam and Eve begat sons and daughters over their almost thousand years I suspect there were too many to stay ay home and after a couple hundred years some of em moved to nod! And the lot incest thing....that was father and daughters.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:35 PM

"And the lot incest thing....that was father and daughters."

Daughters raping the father, maybe the creepiest scene in all of literature. Maybe Lot knew what he was doing offering them to the Sodomites.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:41 PM

GfS, you have a very simple-minded idea of what life is all about.

Many people—most, actually—are mixed bags, with both good and bad ideas. Planned Parenthood was a good idea. Eugenics and racism are atrocious ideas. Liberals acknowledge Margaret Sanger for Planned Parenthood, but deplore many of her other ideas. In NO WAY is she some kind of "Liberal hero!"

As to your simplistic ideas about single women raising children, there ARE women who WANT it that way. They don't want to marry anyone, but they do want a child. And they cope very nicely, thank you!

I know one young woman who didn't want to marry, but did want a child. She tried In-Vitro Fertilization and carried to term, but the baby died within a couple of hours after it was born.   Not wanting to go through that experience again, she adopted a little girl from a Chinese orphanage (because of China's "one child" policy, girl babies are a dime a dozen, and life in a Chinese orphanage is no bed of roses!). The girl is in her teens now, and is thriving. She plays the violin. Not only can she play a mean Bluegrass fiddle, she loves classical music, her mother is paying for her lessons, and she is currently playing in her high school orchestra.

Mother and daughter are not wealthy, but they're happy and doing quite well, thank you!

There are a number of women out there who don't want to marry anyone, but want to have and raise a child. It occasionally happens that they seek out the "services" of a male friend—shopping around and choosing the man on the basis of his intelligence, general health, and other genetic factors that they find desirable and want their child to have. And in such cases, often to the male friend's surprise, the woman "propositions" the man.

Just because it's unconventional or offends someone's delicate sensibilities in matters of what they consider "proper behavior," it does not mean that it is wrong or "immoral."

Same with same-sex relationships.

Try to widen your focus, GfS.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:22 PM

Well, it sounds like things went bad with her first husband(?), sperm donor, or one night stand...but obviously she had a bad experience with men.
Betcha dollars to doughnuts, she would have much rather had one good ol' man who really loved her, and the baby, than to go through all she went through.....
I think it far better to RAISE people's awareness for equality, rather than to make everybody an emotional and/or moral cripple equally.
Certain political agendas have made it all to easy, to keep people stupid, and/or giving up to reach a higher level...don't you?..if you don't like your spouse for some petty reason, just walk away....IS DUMB! It is detrimental to children, as it is with the adults, as well.

Check this out....Firth: "They don't want to marry anyone, but they do want a child. And they cope very nicely, thank you!"

"They don't want to marry anyone.." as in, anymore than the few ones to start off with??....or, she's tired of 'shopping'....or is she an bitch who attracts good guys and runs them off.and blames them??

I think you're being the simplistic one here.

Families are better off by having a loving family structure IN TACT...not some 'socially acceptable' broken home, with a lot of other blind excuses...
There's an expression...."Women who praise divorce, probably made a lot of other excuses, too!"

You seem to readily excuse marriages on a 'trial basis'....when is the audition over and the loving unity in a commitment going to wrap the child in it's security??

Less is a rip-off!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:36 PM

Oh..I forgot one...

Firth: "They don't want to marry anyone, but they do want a child. And they cope very nicely, thank you!"

Cope???? ...That's the best they can do...'cope'???

Sorta sounds like the people you are imagining don't look forward to much in the way of a fulfilled life......

What do you have against original nuclear families???...is it you just can't imagine what it takes to have one...so you wish everybody else has a walk-a-way loophole???
That sucks!
Sure hate to be the child of that kind of parent!!!!!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:09 AM

Jaysus, Goofus, you don't understand ANYTHING about people!!! The women I'm talking about do NOT "sleep around!"

But then, you can't even conceive of such. Whores and satyrs are all that populate the slimy world in your so-called "mind."

But others here, I'm sure, DO understand.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:39 AM

A point you obviously missed, Goofball, perhaps due to your slipshod reading abilities. I said that the young woman who did not want to get married, but wanted a child, became pregnant thru "IN-VITRO FERTILIZATION."

But I used the wrong term. She became pregnant though artificial insemination, done at a fertility clinic. NOT through direct sexual intercourse.

She was NOT--and IS not--"sleeping around."

If you don't know what either in-vitro fertilization or artificial insemination are, look them up!

Not everyone is a slavering, lust-driven animal such as you!

Don Firth

P. S.   Or are you trying to compensate for your secret hunger for little boys?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:59 AM

Where's your defence of creepy slime balls now Jerk?

Or is it just me you like to shout at?

Pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 05:39 AM

Spurred on by 'pete-from-seven-stars-link's' fatuous assertion that there is no evidence for evolution, I am currently reading Richard Dawkins' book, 'The Greatest Show on Earth: the evidence for evolution' (I challenge you to read it to, pete. It'll make a change from all those red-neck websites you read!). Anyway, at the beginning of the book, Dawkins points out that, until recently, much Western - particularly Christian - thinking has been heavily influenced by Plato's concept of idealised forms. Hence, according to that philosophy, mice, rabbits, cockatoos, hamsters etc. exist as idealised, unchanging forms (bet you didn't know that you'd been brainwashed by an ancient, PAGAN Greek, did you, pete?). Modern science, on the other hand, thinks in terms of populations of species - which contain considerable variation clustered around the mean. Over long periods of time, certain parts of the population are naturally selected over others and move away from the mean - gradually changing into other species (Dawkins expresses it better than I can - read the book).
This is, of course, a statistical concept - and as someone who routinely applied statistical ideas in his daily work, I can understand its power.

I suspect that some of the recent contributors to this thread are also Platonists. They believe that human sexual behaviour also exists in idealised forms and departures from those forms are to be deplored. Nevertheless, in the ideal, non-Platonic, real world, human sexual behaviour is as variable as anything else. If the human species is to progress, we need to dump Platonism and learn to embrace and tolerate variation.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 05:48 AM

Don: Could no way make out the point or purpose of your throwaway footnote about "hunger for little boys". Struck me as a most unfortunate interpolation in about every possible way one could think of. Would you be so good as to clarify what you meant by it, please?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 06:50 AM

I agree Michael, that was a disgusting slur. If he has no evidence to support it, he should make an immediate apology to Sanity, who' recent post have been absolutely on the button regarding the issues under discussion.

Don has an unfortunate history of making such remarks, especially to me, regarding his opinion of my sexual orientation....a subject, of which he has absolutely no knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 10:07 AM

" And the lot incest thing….that was father and daughters."

Ah, that's all right then.

:-/

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 11:08 AM

Firth: "Not everyone is a slavering, lust-driven animal such as you!"

Spoken like a 'true man'....
Hey, one of the differences between you and I is I'm the one, who raised the kids I fathered....and YOU'RE the one who used the woman you impregnated as a substitution for your hand and Vaseline...then walked away....and let me clue you in, because YOU have no clue, or experience to draw from....raising my children was a joy, challenge and pleasure that outlasted the fuck itself!

As for your other slur..not everyone shares, or are entertained by your fantasies. You are a disgusting, pathetic near human being.

An apology is not needed from the likes of you.....I saw a massive dog turd out on the lawn the other day...it wasn't apologizing for being there, either!

Now, you're attempting to divert the thread again, as either your 'so-called liberal' tactics have instructed you zombies to do, or you're just chronically locked into rude behavior...whatever the case, the topic of the thread, IS the discussion at hand.....stick to it.

......as soon as you wipe that other stuff off!


GfS

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 11:17 AM

>>Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:59 AM

Where's your defence of creepy slime balls now Jerk?<<<

Let me point out that calling people "creepy slime balls" and "jerk"
is an obvious violation of this very clear instruction.

"You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak."

I don't generally read GfS's posts or Don Firth when he replies. I would not know they are insulting each other if you were not pointing it out. You on the other hand follow me around calling ME names and and trying to start your little bickerfests with ME. As per the rules, written by Ma, I am free to be anything I want except for the items listed. What I am free not be is your attack monkey. If you think that some third party ought to be reminded of the rules, you are free to do it yourself.

You can call me out for things I am not doing all you want. But obviously and ironically the standards you are applying are fictitious and exist only in your apparently muddled mind. Do yourself a favor. Do us all a favor. Go to the membership page and learn the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 11:54 AM

Cappy: "I don't generally read GfS's posts or Don Firth when he replies."

Well if you had you would have gotten quite an education of where he comes from.

Keeping within the topic, (which he is known for of NOT DOING), he ought to start his own thread...."How I disregarded my own child, abandoned him and the mother, and became an 'honorable' defender of 'Militant Atheism'"....

...and for anyone else....

"If I speak with the eloquence of men and of angels, but have no love, I become no more than blaring brass or crashing cymbal. If I have the gift of foretelling the future and hold in my mind not only all human KNOWLEDGE but the very secrets of God, and if I also have that absolute faith which can move mountains, but have no love, I amount to NOTHING at all. If I dispose of all that I possess, yes, even if I give my own body to be burned, but have no love, I achieve precisely NOTHING.

4 This love of which I speak is slow to lose patience—it looks for a way of being CONSTRUCTIVE. It is not possessive: it is neither anxious to IMPRESS nor does it cherish INFLATED IDEAS OF ITS OWN IMPORTANCE,

5-6 Love has good manners and does not pursue selfish advantage. It is not touchy. It does not keep account of evil or gloat over the wickedness of other people. On the contrary, it is GLAD WITH all GOOD men when TRUTH PREVAILS.

7-8a Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen.
All gifts except love will be superseded one day

8b-10 For if there are prophecies they will be fulfilled and done with, if there are "tongues" the need for them will disappear, if there is KNOWLEDGE IT WILL BE SWALLOWED UP IN TRUTH. For our KNOWLEDGE IS ALWAYS INCOMPLETE and our prophecy is always incomplete, and when the complete comes, that is the end of the incomplete.

11 When I was a little CHILD I TALKED and FELT and THOUGHT like a LITTLE CHILD. Now that I am a man my childish speech and feeling and thought have no further significance for me.

12 At present we are men looking at puzzling reflections in a mirror. The time will come when we shall see reality whole and face to face! At present all I know is a little fraction of the truth, but the time will come when I shall know it as fully as God now knows me!

13 In this life we have three great lasting qualities—faith, hope and love. But the greatest of them is LOVE."

1 Corinthians 13,~~J.B. Phillips

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 12:38 PM

"Well if you had you would have gotten quite an education of where he comes from."

I don't see the utility in obtaining a degree in OPA (other people's arguments)

If you want other people to read what you write, you have to do do things, write in an intelligible manner and write about things which interest them. You can also reference them by nasty names (Musket is proof that that gets attention), but that makes them a lot less likely to take your thoughts seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 12:46 PM

Cappy: "If you want other people to read what you write, you have to do do things, write in an intelligible manner and write about things which interest them."

Hey, one man's ceiling is another man's floor.
You want to keep on topic of things that interest them??...OK....

"Whoever does not LOVE does not know God, because GOD is LOVE." ~~1 John 4:8.

So according to that, 'Militant Atheism' is a paramilitary outfit designed to wipe out love.

Now just look at the posts from our resident militants!!

Any questions???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 12:55 PM

Jacks right Sanity, keep calm, you've got it right, but you are allowing them to provoke you.
If you lose the head they can claim the argument, no matter nonsensical their stance may be.......Peace, man!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:18 PM

Hey, I'm cool....so calm that I've stayed dead on target!

Regards, Ake!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:29 PM

All I'm saying is that I don't read your posts because they don't address me and the topics don't concern me. Musket is losing the argument with me so he is trying to facilitate a fight between you and me.

You leave me alone so I leave you alone. On the other hand. Musket picks at a lot of people.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:46 PM

No, stu, it was not alright,   Context!          Shimrod....yes shimrod I have heard that Christian teaching at one point got platonised, and fixity of species was a belief in Victorian times , I think.    That has nothing to do with modern creation teaching which saw variety in organisms before Darwin wrote about it. However the info in the genes only causes reproduction after its kind, and you have not demonstrated that it can depart from the limits of the variations in the organism, to become anything else......however many generations you throw at it.    So if Dawkins has evidence to the contrary, by all means share it!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:51 PM

-M-, the remark could very well have been left out, but it's in answer to continued references on GfS's part to something I said, years ago in another thread, about a relationship I was involved in some 45 years ago and which I did not initiate. He put the sleaziest possible spin on it and he just won't let it go. He keeps bringing it up.

HE, ALSO, revealed something about himself that, undoubtedly, he regretted. I'm just reminding him that, should he keep up with the snarky references, I might just cut and re-post the post that he undoubtedly regrets HE made.

As to Ake's remark, occasionally I have reminded him that, according to articles in "Scientific American" and "Psychology Today," those who show as much incessant antipathy toward homosexuals as he does are, very frequently, fighting urges within themselves that scare the hell out of them. He might just ask himself why he feels compelled to write so much wordage on the subject.

Same goes for GfS.

In the meantime, I'm crawling out of this slime-pit and leaving it to Goofus and Ake. I have better, more important things to do than argue with these two.

Ta-bloody-ta!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:05 PM

Do you use random words and throw them together Jerk?

Your description of me is rather cute really. You give me influence I rather think I don't have and attach a purpose to my posts.

How the hell do you manage to tie your own shoe laces? You are so up your own arse that you don't realise how stupid your attacks are. You say I have to be nice to Goofus and the worm and say that they have every right to spew homophobic hatred then say you never read what they put.

Try reading what they put. They should go into show business as a double act. Goofus says atheism is about destroying love. The worm says he is right, whilst claiming to he an atheist himself. Goofus says the most disgraceful personally insulting comments about another Mudcat member, but I'm in the wrong for calling it Goofus.

Hey? You reckon I'm following you around the threads? Notwithstanding that is either an exhibit of your own self importance or a sign of paranoia... I might start doing so if you keep up this level of entertainment. Class A material for my comedy set.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:43 PM

" He might just ask himself why he feels compelled to write so much wordage on the subject."

My observation would be because other people keep bringing it up.


Speaking of trolling rude people,

>>Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:05 PM

Do you use random words and throw them together Jerk? <<

>>Goofus and the worm <<

Blatant disrespect for the rules of this forum which can be found by clicking on membership. Blatent disrespect for Max. Blatant ingratitude.

Blatant attempts to be argumentative.

A whole pile of blatant lies. But he is allowed to lie.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 04:32 PM

Gratitude? Lies? Rules?

Looks like I was right after all. You do type random words.

Nurse!

In the meantime, Goofus and the worm do their best to make Mudcat a rather ugly website. Keep supporting them you sanctimonious fraud. I wonder why you do?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 04:44 PM

"Lies" like those guys are the ugliness on this website and not you. "Gratitude" or the lack therof you being too childish and selfish to read the rules Max posted and follow them.

Its not that complicated. Its not random at all.

"Goofus and the worm"

It also not hard to figure out that I am supporting no one. I am simply educating you. The problem is not that you calling them names specifically. It is that you think that name calling is allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 04:46 PM

I used to argue with gnu about trolls, I reckoned they were a figment of ones imagination, gnu said....no they do exist, they live and breathe and I think you(Ake) are a very proficient one!

Well gnu was wrong about me, because I actually care about the subject on which I write, whether it be politics, religious belief, or social issues. I do not say things for "effect", to cause trouble, or to close down discussion.

Gnu was right(and I apologise for disbelieving him), that trolls do live and breathe, and are a menace to serious discussion.
If anyone shares the belief that I used to hold about the non-existence of trolls, you will find no finer example of the beast than Mr Mather (musket). Study how he operates, how he provokes aggression, using personal attacks at every opportunity, notice he never addresses the issue directly, preferring to print lame insulting jokes, reams of meaningless jargon, or nasty childish name calling, surrounding himself with acolytes who have now shown the good sense to desert, him as his MO is slowly and surely exposed.

Perhaps the messianic Mr Mather (MMM), should join the group of stereotypes which he is so fond of presenting......"The Stereotypical Troll".......God bless 'im! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 05:10 PM

preferring to print lame insulting jokes, reams of meaningless jargon, or nasty childish name calling,

You forgot to mention his use of blatant lying.
Lacking any argument, he just makes shit up.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 08:27 PM

"I agree Michael, that was a disgusting slur. If he has no evidence to support it, he should make an immediate apology to Sanity, who' recent post have been absolutely on the button regarding the issues under discussion."

It's a pity that you couldn't raise any interest in taking Goofball to task for his unwarranted and false characterisations of Don Firth over a perios of years.

Your bias is very clear, as is Goofball's.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 08:36 PM

"If anyone shares the belief that I used to hold about the non-existence of trolls, you will find no finer example of the beast than Mr Mather (musket)."

He at least has the guts to post as himself, unlike the trolls identifying themselves as a Pharaoh and a fugitive from sanity.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 08:47 PM

Thank you, Troubadour!

Like the wise and knowledgeable Galactic Hitchhiker, you know where your towel is.

It seems that, unfortunately, the same cannot be said of many. . . .

Don Firth (checking in from time to time)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 01:54 AM

Any more?

Internet text isn't the best medium for facial expression of showing disdain for unacceptable propagation of hate and lies.

So if it's all the same to you, I shall deal with the trolls by name calling them. Not big, not smart but not a problem either considering the poor quality of the small shallow people trolling.

Goofus.
Worm
Keith A Hole of Hertford
Jerk the Sea Cadet.

I really am laughing my fucking head off at how they berate me for pointing out disgusting odious filth on these threads, normally propagated by themselves, and want me to apologise for pointing out their lack of humanity.

Keep it up. It's almost worth the distraction the odd minute or two in a day provides to log on and see what's coming next. Mind you, getting tediously predictable.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:28 AM

Cappy: "Musket is losing the argument with me so he is trying to facilitate a fight between you and me.
You leave me alone so I leave you alone. On the other hand. Musket picks at a lot of people."

Well that's what people do who don't believe in God/Love. What did you expect?

Musky: "Musket is losing the argument with me so he is trying to facilitate a fight between you and me."

Well, better you than him, huh?....just ask him!..naw...better yet, read the posts!!

Firth: "...about a relationship I was involved in some 45 years ago and which I did not initiate."

Now you're claiming abuse?..and she raped you??....maybe you weren't there??....or is it that moral turpitude thing, again?

She 'forced you'?....then she didn't want you even around the child(according to you)...and it was ALL HER FAULT.....OK, sure..anything you say.......
(that's why he likes to see himself as a political activist, eh?)
..OK..defend 'Militant Atheism' run from Love....and politically be active..so YOU can tell people how to run their lives???......hmmmm..I got it now....

GfS

P.S...What else does anyone need to know about 'Militant Atheism' is propaganda??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:22 AM

"No, stu, it was not alright,   Context!"

I don't understand. Please tell my what this actually means. Does it mean in the context of the time incest was OK? Really? When did it become not OK, and who said so?

I don't have a clue about this, so unless someone tells me I'll remain ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:27 AM

"However the info in the genes only causes reproduction after its kind, and you have not demonstrated that it can depart from the limits of the variations in the organism, to become anything else……however many generations you throw at it."

Hmmm. I've just asked you to explain why incest is OK and now we're back to this old cobblers. This comment is just bloody minded ignorance; no offense, but it's crass stupidity to even type that, let alone actually believe it.

Best stick to explaining 'context'.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 06:44 AM

"So if Dawkins has evidence to the contrary, by all means share it!"

No, pete, I'm suggesting that YOU read Prof. Dawkins' book. I'm sure that it will provide you with answers to all of your questions - but I'm not going to attempt to re-gurgitate it so that you can nit-pick my interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:35 AM

>>>
So if it's all the same to you, I shall deal with the trolls by name calling them. Not big, not smart but not a problem either considering the poor quality of the small shallow people trolling.

Goofus.
Worm
Keith A Hole of Hertford
Jerk the Sea Cadet. <<<


It is not all the same to me. It is not all the same to Max. You are showing disrespect and ingratitude by ignoring a simple request.

From the membership page.

"Be aware that our forum is Free.

Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak. "

It is unkind, impolite argumentative and snooty for you to call people names and judge them. Its pretty simple and you have a choice. You are allowed to express unpopular opinion. You are not allowed to be an argumentative, name calling jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:46 AM

"Well that's what people do who don't believe in God/Love. What did you expect?" I have to take issue on this.

There are plenty of good people on this forum who do not believe in God who do not insult people and have not taken it upon themselves to attack several people every day fighting "embers with flames" because they find it "cathartic."

Ian Mather does not do this because he does not believe in God.

Please keep in mind that while many members of this forum do not believe in God, he is the only one going out of his way every to call you names.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:55 AM

Blah!! blah!!! blah!!!blabitty blah!!!...the same old judgmental, priggish, right wing crap from the biggest asshole on Mudcat with the smallest mind..

"You are allowed to express unpopular opinion. You are not allowed to be an argumentative, name calling jerk. " who gives you the right , phony?


It is you who are showing disrespect and ingratitude by ignoring a simple request by me to challenge my justifiable comments to you.


As I said if you can, I will leave this thread forever..but from your past record I guess I will have along wait?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:04 AM

>>>Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,concerened - PM
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:55 AM

Blah!! blah!!! blah!!!blabitty blah!!!...the same old judgmental, priggish, right wing crap from the biggest asshole on Mudcat with the smallest mind..

"You are allowed to express unpopular opinion. You are not allowed to be an argumentative, name calling jerk. " who gives you the right , phony?<<<

From the membership page.

"Be aware that our forum is Free.

Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak. "

How many of those rules did your last post break?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM

Cappy: "Please keep in mind that while many members of this forum do not believe in God, he is the only one going out of his way every to call you names."

Yes, as I've mentioned before, 'name-calling' is a common, but telling tactic of those who have no case, nor anything intelligent to contribute to the topic's discussion..so they resort to childish playground antics, to see if they can get like-minded nitwits to pile on...it gives them a 'feeling' of 'winning some sort of consensus, to their immature and erroneous position. They can't 'win it' on the merits of reason, logic or common sense!.............and then they can't understand it why the sane people don't take them seriously, OR why people DO NOT want to be like them or adopt their quasi point of view, when the end result is nasty attitude, argumentative immature name calling!!...Jeez!...This is what we are left to believe, as to bottom line of the top of their quest????..They figure the more hostile, rude and stupidity that they exhibit...the more their making their point.....problem is, they ARE making their point.....that they are moronic idiots with nothing to say!!

As to the reason that I came down on Don, is nothing more than the fact that he posted his desperately stupid little libelous 'footnote', when in my prior posts leading up to it, I was NOT personalizing my rhetorical questions to him!...but he had to step right into it...even though a couple of posters call on him to apologize. Knowing that he is incapable, I just fired back some TRUTH at him, illustrating what kind of selfish and self-serving character he is...and his 'points of view' are paved with misinformation and/or flagrant stupidity...THROUGH the YEARS....and he STILL doesn't fucking 'get it'!!
Now he's claiming that SHE 'initiated it'....and he was helplessly deceived by her......well I got news for ya', Dimples,...You seem to have an inclination THROUGH THE YEARS of being susceptible of being deceived...and then turning around and peddling more deception in arguing your 'points'.....and so it has evolved into how you approach politics!!...'In for a penny, in for a pound'.....and folks are, and should be wary of virtually ANYTHING that you apply YOUR limited understanding to, because maybe other people aren't so vulnerable to believe what you choose to believe....just to satisfy YOUR selfish need for ego gratification!!! ...whether it be to recklessly get laid, or promoting some bullshit 'so-called liberal' propaganda d'jour as you did with 'Obamacare' (latest example).
Bottom line, is you naively grab the disinformation, you have a track record of being fooled on serious matters, and then you insult those who don't subscribe to your nonsensical delusions....then he PM's people to come to his 'aide'....and causes them to be made fools out of!...but he don't care...as long as he thinks his latest bullshit is accepted by somebody..anybody....and the only ones he's able to conscript(who haven't given up on him), are jackasses!!....and they are the same jackasses, that display jackass behavior...WHOOOPPIEEE!
Next,you'll be buying them complimentary incense to burn at your autographed pictures of yourself that you'll send them for their birthdays!!!

Good grief, grow up, as opposed to growing into your second childhood, and take some sort of responsibility for being a chronic and terminal fuck up!
....but that's propaganda!!.....getting others to believe bullshit...and that's your life's mission!...that's politics!

OK..I'm done....Go bullshit each other and pat each others on the back, for at least not throwing up on each other!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:14 PM

Let's all sit cross legged at the feet of the noble self appointed arbiter of what people are allowed to say.

Let's all marvel as he puts words in people's keyboards and makes sweeping general observations of why you say what you do.

Swoon with admiration as he tells us all that Musket doesn't believe in God and that's why he points out stupidity.

Never question the noble Lord Jerk as he forgets the worm isn't superstitious either but Musket saves the most condemning comments for said worm.

Oy Jerk! Any chance of quoting the rules again? Just in case we didn't read the bleedin things the last time? Perhaps add the bits in your head but not on the website that says you can insult Don Firth, you can insult me , and Goofus can spew shit all day, whilst Keith A Hole of Hertford can shout liar! every time his idiotic takes on a subject fail scrutiny.

If you want to look a daft sod waving the rule book , you have to read posts like the real moderators do, not shout at those you disagree with and claim you don't read them when those you agree with fart their odious bile.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:33 PM

Let me re-phrase...Politics is the tactic of deceiving people, through propaganda, to build a consensus by getting people to abandon their common sense and go along with politically motivated crimes against humanity, regardless of political party!...hence, the Korean 'conflict'(they called it a 'police action'..but nobody got arrested), The Warren Report, Vietnam, The Golden Triangle, the oil deal with the Saudis, (buying our bonds in exchange for buying their oil, the pretending it was for 'environmental reasons', NAFTA, GATT, recreational abortions, GMO's, repealing Glass-Steagal, the Twin Towers, Iraq (twice), the 'war on terrorism, the 'war on drugs', 'war on poverty', the Patriot Act, 'jobs czar, shovel ready jobs, AIG bailout, solar energy subsidies to cronies, (all of which collapsed, but not before the kickback was payed), Citizens United, NDAA, Obamacare, NSA scandals, trying to re-define marriage, homosexuality based on 'genetics' and now 'Militant Atheism' as a move toward 'secularism', (among others) because they can't have 'God' around, if they want the STATE to be the sole supreme being!..all of them brought about by deception...all of them backfiring.....EXCEPT to the bankster/corporate/Military Industrial Complex....of whom your 'party leaders' are just shills, and pay homage, doing their bidding!!
Get a fucking clue!!!!!!!!!!

Politics employs, trying to discredit common sense and/or traditions that work, to replace it with the forced will of the Military Industrial Complex..regardless of party, because the bankster/corporate/Military Industrial Complex owns the both, and the media! .....and those who promote the deceptive delusions by means of propaganda, and call it 'truth' are just those who fell into their game.....and are too fucking stupid to flash that they've been deceived into being delusional babblers.

There!..That was simple!

I just hope they like good music..after all, Beethoven's music has outlasted several governmental changes in Austria-Germany....as did any good music.
(maybe people get into politics because they just couldn't get into good music......it requires 'Heart'!).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 01:08 PM

..Oh, I forgot, Iran/Contra, the 'Woman's Movement', the Keystone Pipeline, Benghazi, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, 'stimulus', the Fed, easy 'loans for the housing market, Freddie and Fannie Mae, 'Fast and Furious' programs, non-enforcement of the borders, immigration policies and the lack thereof,...and the list goes on....and I'm SURE that the list steps on the toes of anyone who hasn't seen through the lies and propaganda surrounding them ALL!

GfS

P.S...and I'm sure you can think of a few more...even your personal favorite 'sacred cows'...and it's ALL bullshit!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 01:10 PM

..and 400 posts for the clueless!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 01:56 PM

Joe,

"Nobody cares what you believe or don't" is unfortunately not true. If we accept the Constitution, then this should be true but it is also true that threads like this are started by people who want to trash those who are non-believers. My thread was posted in reaction to this.

I am increasingly amazed at the vitriol that people have who do not want to discuss their religious beliefs rationally. It should be no different than those wanting to discuss their political, musical or economic beliefs. There is nothing sacrosanct about a person's belief system that can't be discussed in a rational, civilized manner.

There is the problem that in most cases, religious beliefs tend not to be rational and this is borne out by the role of religion in politics, today and the fanaticism of those in the military industrial complex and the air force who are trying to Christianize the public.

Those who are annoyed by this discussion are generally those who may not be sincere in their belief systems. Otherwise they have the right to opt out and not respond.

I still maintain that there is a large percentage of religious people who take it upon themselves to deride or degrade non-belief because of their indoctrination.

I welcome a rational discussion on this topic and have thrown no crap at people who are religious personally but I think that religion has had a track record of violence, vitriol and superstition not to mention the obnoxious behavior of evangelism.

This is a worthy topic of conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:15 PM

>>>From: GUEST,Musket - PM
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:14 PM

Let's all sit cross legged at the feet of the noble self appointed arbiter of what people are allowed to say.

Let's all marvel as he puts words in people's keyboards and makes sweeping general observations of why you say what you do. <<<

These two things apply to you more than anyone on this forum. You arbitrate allowed opinions and punish offenders by calling them names.


You not only use "sweeping generalizations." You also use words like "ginger" and "paki" to refer to human beings. Of course if you understood, you would know that you are free to act like a bigot.

You are also free to try reverse psychology on me for saying that I am "predictable" when you know bloody well that I am simply doing what I said I would do.

It is like the puppy who pees on the floor saying it is "predictable" when he gets bashed on the nose with a newspaper. The puppy is right of course. But that doesn't mean that pissing all over this forum should be tolerated.

Which brings me to the point of this post and several others recently.

Click here to read the rules.

You will see the rules in all of their glory. You will a picture of the man who wrote them.

You will see that I can be what I want. I don't want to be a person who points out the rules to everyone. I do want to be a person who points out the rules to you! as long as you are breaking them. Again I ask you to practice your cathartic stress release somewhere other than here. If you want to point out bigotry or arbitrate other peoples words here, the rules Max wrote do not forbid that IF you do it kindly, politely and without trying to pick a fight.

However, if, in future, you are unkind, impolite, argumentative, or snooty, I will probably point it out. Not because it is just, or wise or fair, but because I am free to be what I want as long as I am not unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak. Reminding you of your own stubbornness and childishness is a lot more satisfying than being drawn into your silly arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:41 PM

>> If we accept the Constitution, then this should be true but it is also true that threads like this are started by people who want to trash those who are non-believers. My thread was posted in reaction to this.<<<

Stringsinger

This thread was started by you sir in fact this thread is a combination of two threads like this started by you.

Is it fair to say that you start threads like this to trash non-believers. Or would you rather just admit that your statement is in error?

Are you aware that the constitution only protects people from government interference in their speech? It would be a good thing for you to keep in mind.

>>I am increasingly amazed at the vitriol that people have who do not want to discuss their religious beliefs rationally. It should be no different than those wanting to discuss their political, musical or economic beliefs. There is nothing sacrosanct about a person's belief system that can't be discussed in a rational, civilized manner.<<

The vitriol on this forum about religion on this forum comes overwhelmingly from a few people who are not religious and there is no lack of uncivilized talk on each and all of the topics you mentioned. On the topic of religion I don't see much civilized discussion on your part. You tend to lecture, "discussion" implies balanced communication.   

>>I still maintain that there is a large percentage of religious people who take it upon themselves to deride or degrade non-belief because of their indoctrination.<<

No one has argued that. Though I might ask you to put some numbers behind "large percentage."

It has been argued that there are a few very vocal non-believers who take it upon themselves to deride or degrade belief because of their indoctrination or lack of it.

It has been argued that some non-believers act like evangelicals with a dogma of non-belief instead of Christianity. People have wondered if such people are among us.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:44 PM

I have never used ginger or paki you stupid fool. I write for a British audience, as irony and mockery of bigotry is generally seen for what it is in more sophisticated societies.

Streuth....

By the way, I doubt study of rules is a prerequisite to use a public website. Granted, you may not understand where the moderators are coming from if they edit or delete your posts but 99% of people here take that risk.

Whilst we are at it, if you were logical or rational, you too could apply to be a moderator.

I haven't read the rules. I have no intention of reading the rules. If Max wants half a debate in these threads that would be his affair, but from where I am sitting, challenging bigotry, homophobia, misogyny and crass stupidity is not on his shit list just yet. I hope it never is, but if it ever is, hopefully hatred will be barred at the same time.

Pissing on the carpet is one thing, but the likes of Goofus and the worm drop the odd shit on it for good measure.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:49 PM

One last but IMPORTANT note on this matter, then back to the original subject of this thread:

I presume that anyone and everyone here with an I.Q. over that of the average toenail fungus knows that Guest from InSanity is lying through his teeth about me. NONE of what he has written about me is true!

He should be aware that he is guilty of libel, by putting into print (and that includes in internet forums and blogs) defaming and untrue statements about another person. And that that person can then SUE them for libel and defamation of character.

Hiding behind a "Guest" designation or other pseudonym still does not keep one sufficiently anonymous that he or she cannot easily be found and called to account. Every time someone posts on a forum, they leave behind a record of their IP address—which is essentially the same as "caller ID" with a telephone. All a Mudelf would need to do is pull up any message that someone posted and there is the poster's IP address. And that poster can then be traced.

An attorney could subpoena the information if necessary, and find out WHO authored that post—name, address, all the information.

So, as I say, hiding behind a phony name doesn't mean one is really anonymous.

In the early Sixties, I had occasion to sue a music store owner who was bad-mouthing me as a guitar teacher, and I won the case. He was ordered by the court to cease and desist (shut his big mouth) and pay me several thousand dollars in damages.

So I am familiar with the procedure.

HAVE A CARE, Guest from InSanity. I can haul your ass into court!!

And I'm thinking seriously about it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:04 PM

I reported the website for not deleting incitement to hatred, an offence where Akenaton lives. I doubt with the workload that it would get followed up, but you have to make a stand.

Goofus's awful attacks on you are beyond anything anyone should have to read. Sadly, our self appointed holier than thou merchant fails to notice, he just wants me thrown off for calling the shit Goofus.

They say there is one in every village Don. We have a commune of them here. Both sides of the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:06 PM

>>>I presume that anyone and everyone here with an I.Q. over that of the average toenail fungus knows that Guest from InSanity is lying through his teeth about me. NONE of what he has written about me is true!

He should be aware that he is guilty of libel, by putting into print (and that includes in internet forums and blogs) defaming and untrue statements about another person. And that that person can then SUE them for libel and defamation of character.<<<

I have not seen I.Q. data for toenail fungi so I can't speak to that. But I believe you next to zero cause for a libel suit. You'd have to prove that he wasn't joking, he said it knowingly and deliberately and that he is of sound mind. You may be able to prove one or two of those things about GfS, but not all three.

I think that the likelihood of you scaring him with hints of libel is even more remote.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:07 PM

Stringsinger: "There is the problem that in most cases, religious beliefs tend not to be rational and this is borne out by the role of religion in politics, today and the fanaticism of those in the military industrial complex...."

I agree!....Just as politics has replaced statesmanship, religion has tried to replace any true understanding of the Spiritual.....and the war against the Spiritual and the war against true statesmen has been running rampant amongst those who are either too lazy or too stupid to find out and know the difference!..and as a result the whole of the body politic, and/or the genuine belief is God suffer. Politics is its own worse enemy, and 'religions' do more to make banal any depth of real cause and effect, of the unseen powers that otherwise would have profound meaning.

I also agree with Stringsinger, that a salient discussion would be in order....but due to the tactics of the 'less than open-minded' we're stuck with the puerile antics of 'believers' of either, that is corrupt political policies AND impotent 'religious' dogma!! Even those tactics are chosen for those to disengage and avoid getting to the bottom of the motives and the 'powers-that-be' behind the curtain....and these silly fucks just go right along with it. It is a cancer on the brotherhood of mankind and the body politic, alike!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:15 PM

Tell us, oh Inflated One, what is the lie?
I'm only repeating what you bragged about, when you thought you were impressing people.
YOU'RE the one who implied I was a pedophile!!..and you got blasted back with your own medicine...except mine was based on what you said to be true...and the added element of common sense!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:28 PM

>>>I haven't read the rules. I have no intention of reading the rules. If Max wants half a debate in these threads that would be his affair,<<<

That works very well for me as it allows me to rub your nose in your own pig headedness and disrespect for this forum. And anyone who wants to see if what you are doing is right, they can read the rules of the forum. As I said, point out your antisocial behavior on this forum is more fun than wallowing in your mud.


>>> but from where I am sitting, challenging bigotry, homophobia, misogyny and crass stupidity <<<   


You are doing none of those things. You are childishly calling people names. How do you think you are challenging bigotry by perpetuating stereotypes by using terms like "Paki" and "Ginger?"
I have not seen the people you call "bigots" use these terms to refer to people, only you. But there is no rule against being a weekminded hypocrite who hides behind so-called humor, which a lot of bigots do. So if I thought that was what you are doing I probably wouldn't bother to point it out other than to enjoy the irony of you calling people "bigot."

I have enough to enjoy in pointing out every day that you are again being an obnoxious stubborn rule breaker and then watching you use playground psychology to try to get me to stop. By all means don't read the rules and abide by them if that is the kind of man you are Ian Mather.


>>is not on his shit list just yet. I hope it never is, but if it ever is, hopefully hatred will be barred at the same time.<<<

I don't think its a "shit list" Ian. I don't think he wants to be your daddy. I think he posted those rules expecting most of us to be grown ups and respect them. I would like for you to be a grown up and respect the posted rules. But I don't think that you will.

>>>Pissing on the carpet is one thing, but the likes of Goofus and the worm drop the odd shit on it for good measure. <<<

Look at that you literally dropped a "shit" on this thread.

And biting at the other puppies and worse, not learning, will get you sent to the pound.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:31 PM

>>I reported the website for not deleting incitement to hatred, an offence where Akenaton lives. <<

Are you are saying that you reported Max to the Scottish authorities?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:31 PM

No, Jack. I've been through the drill and know what's involved. Trying to claim he was "only joking" is extremely lame, and in no way constitutes a defense.

Goofus, I NEVER said any of the things you claim I said.

I'm copying and pasting your posts about me to show to my attorney.

Keep giggling. You might just be giggling on the other side of you face quite soon.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:36 PM

"I reported the website for not deleting incitement to hatred, an offence where Akenaton lives"

I'm afraid I must tell you Ian, that you have committed the cardinal sin. You have broken the main rule in the book, a rule which when broken on a couple of previous occasions, resulted in the miscreants being "disappeared"....never to be heard of again.
Alas poor Shambles! I knew him well.

The rule you have broke is as follows.
"Being for or against that of what we do not speak"

I would tell you what "that of what we do not speak" is,....but I dare not, lest I suffer the same fate which awaits YOU. :0(

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:57 PM

So sue me...I could always use the money!
Oh, and don't forget to include YOUR posts....including the one that you allege me to be a pedophile...AND the others from the past, that shows that I, for one, wasn't making anything up...repeating back to you your history as told to us by you!!

BTW, frivolous lawsuits can be more expensive to the person filing them, than the original suit...some states even have criminal charges for filing them!

...and don't think I'm kidding!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:16 PM

That's the problem with people who believe their own press.....DELUSION!

....now, maybe we can get back to the main topic....Don uses this same tactic over and over again....he wants all the threads to end up a forum in which he gets everyone to be talking about him....when no one is even remotely interested, he'll kick it off be talking about himself.
It happens every time he gets backed into a corner, and can't back up his frothing rants!

OK..enough about Don....and his past reckless 'sexploits'....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:44 PM

Man, he's just shoveling the hole deeper!

Keep it up, Goofus. It all makes interesting reading.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 08:03 PM

Well if you weren't such a block-headed, stubborn spin-master, you'd find a lot of interesting reading on here...some even from me...but you're so full of yourself, you can't absorb anything!...Well you know what they say about 'know-it-alls'...they think they know it all, so the can't learn anything.
Ever noticed that?


Frustrating isn't it?
Oh well!.....back to the topic...'Militant Pests'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:01 PM

Gust, you're even more full of shit than usual. Take a breather.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 12:58 AM

I give up. Jack the Sailor makes it quite clear he is not capable of understanding. His defence of the rather nasty person behind Goofus plus his support of the worm make his agenda perfectly clear.

Which is fine.

It does however cross the rubicon from twisting his tail because the reaction is fun to just dismissing him with contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 09:17 AM

I'm really happy to have you dismiss me with contempt or otherwise, if it means you stop calling me names and that you try to become a respectful member of this forum.

But lets be clear, I'm not defending anything that GfS or any of the people you attack say. I am merely pointing out that the rules say that they are free to do as they wish within the rules as are you. They break the rules much less than you and your rule breaking is often aimed at me.

If you want to point out bigotry, If you want to dispute a rule, you can do it within the rules. Many of us do so regularly.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 01:28 PM

If the disgraceful accusations Goofus comes out with or the homophobic hatred the worm mutters are within the rules, one of the following applies.

1. You can't read.
2. You don't understand what you read.
3. The rules aren't fit for purpose.

I shall now have a quick scan of said rules.

Hang on.








Nope. They seem to fit the bill. Must be you duck.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 01:40 PM

Ian Mather,

The rules are very very very simple and very very very easy to understand and abide by if you so choose.

You are free to inform those people that you feel they are not living up to your interpretation of the rules. You are not free to be unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak.

I have no doubt that in the rough and tumble of spirited debate that most of us, including those that you have called names, do violate those rules. Only one person brags when he does it. Only one person does it several times a day almost every day.

I don't care to remind them of the rules. They are not my concern. You are my concern, Ian Mather, for reasons which have been explained many times.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:06 PM

"It is not all the same to me. It is not all the same to Max."

If there were the slightest smidgeon of truth in that statement, Max would have already dealt with it.

I suspect (tho' not claiming to KNOW his mind) that Max is heartily sick of your pissing and moaning about all who fail your twisted idea of good behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,The Ghost of Christmas Past
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:14 PM

Ian, GfS did NOT express hatred for homosexuals, that is only YOUR take on it. Sounds like the hatred is in your head.

GfS happens to have had some of the most insightful, interesting, witty, amusing and entertaining posts on Mudcat.

It certainly appears to me, that because GfS has also accurately pointed out some of the most egregious examples of hypocrisy in our political divide, Don Firth being the most glaring example, that Don encouraged Stilly River Sage to boot him off, whether temporarily or not, time will tell, because GfS accurately called Don's opinionated hypocrisy for what is is, and Don just couldn't handle it!

With that in mind, instead of making Mudcat a fair place for different perspectives and exchange of varying ideas, Stilly River Sage, along with the nonsense of the lunatic fringe of the left, is turning Mudcat into a place that is 'safe for hypocrisy'.

A protest is in order!

The Ghost of Christmas Past
(And NO, I'm not GfS)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:38 PM

Yes you are.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:00 PM

GUEST,Troubadour

Thanks for the feedback, but I will stand by what I said. The rules Max wrote are clear enough. I'm going with the thought that he meant what he said when writing them and if he felt otherwise now he would have changed the rules.


There are all kinds of reasons why he may not be cracking down on each instance, the most likely reason that he does not have the time to waste baby sitting the rule breakers.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM

I don't think it is GfS SRS. The content is very similar but the writing style is way different.

Not that it matters.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:17 PM

One of his regular IP addresses, Jack. And who else would give him such a shining review?

Guest, you'll be allowed back but your behavior is that of a stalker, so if you don't stop following people around and pouncing on them your messages will be deleted or you'll be put in time out again. To think we bothered to worry about you when you were so ill a while back. What fools we were.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:22 PM

CLICKY.

I think Stilly checked the IP number, Jack. The style is not that different.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:23 PM

Yep!

DF

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:27 PM

I stand corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 08:18 PM

I understand, Goofass. I wouldn't want to be identified as GfS either.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 11:20 PM

Poor sod! Hoist with his own petard and last seen running for the horizon with his ass on fire. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 01:12 AM

Hang in there, Jack, and check this out...........

Jack the Sailor: "I don't think it is GfS SRS. The content is very similar but the writing style is way different."

"I stand corrected."

Firth: "I think Stilly checked the IP number, Jack. The style is not that different."

Firth: "Yep!"

Gillmor: "I understand, Goofass. I wouldn't want to be identified as GfS either."

The Ghost of Christmas Past: "(And NO, I'm not GfS)"

Stilly River Sage: "Yes you are."



Oh Goodie!! A PERFECT EXAMPLE of what I just previously posted, which was:

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:33 PM

"Let me re-phrase...Politics is the tactic of deceiving people, through propaganda, to build a consensus by getting people to abandon their common sense..."

Jack, your instincts and common sense was absolutely correct!
It wasn't me.....Now note the feeling you get when this question is answered, versus the feeling of having to abandon your common sense...
(sometimes a well placed question can change a life)...and remember atheism does not believe in God nor his laws, like lying etc etc...

Stilly and Don say it was because they checked my IP address..therefore it was me......

Now here's the question....
How could it have been my IP address when my IP address was blocked??
She said she checked..Don said, "I think Stilly checked the IP number, Jack. The style is not that different."

Whatever you detected, when you said "....but the writing style is way different" was your common sense. Their Atheist/'so-called liberal' Propaganda made it appear different, appealing to those with like ideologies...

Truth, and this can be verified by a truly objective 'moderator'...and if found to be true, SRS should be canned.....
That IP address has never ever been used by me, in 9196 posts, and she blocked my computer.


'Militant Atheism' is Godless propaganda"...No laws of 'love' or 'honesty'.....deceiving those who they can...See how it works?
..and the difference between left and right wings....is all about MONEY...how it is handled, and who controls it....as long as 'WE, THE PEOPLE' are passive, obedient consumers!..they will have NOTHING to do with freedom and/or independent thinkers...matter of fact, they'd like to exterminate us all!!

Happy Realizations!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 01:21 AM

Matter of fact, Cappy Jack, the way you've been trying to keep people to post within the rules, you'd be a better moderator!...at least you're not THAT tainted with ideology!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:22 AM

That IP address has never ever been used by me, in 9196 posts
How do you know that address?
Is it true you use several?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:44 AM

The ghost of Goofus past....

I suppose you would have to be a ghost in order to carry out magic, such as curing gayness. (One of his less salubrious claims.)

On that bombshell, and keeping on track of the thread, (superstition verses rationality,) I notice one of the catholic priests that has just been promoted to Cardinal, (a Spanish bloke,) has just a given a speech saying homosexuality is a disease and we should look for a cure.

Nice.

Reminds me of a the one about a bloke who got brave in the pub and went up to a lady and said "I fancy you." She said, "You are wasting your time, I'm a lesbian." Oh, he said, what does that mean? (As opposed to "What part of lesbia do you come from?") "Look," she said. "See that lass over there? I'd love to go over and suck on her breasts." "Oh Jesus!" He said. "I reckon I'm a lesbian too!"

The moral being, there is no disease, just perspective.....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:52 AM

I must be an anorexic lesbian then. I fancy women and every time I look in a mirror I see a fat bloke.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:07 AM

There comes a point in every long thread where controversy gives say to repetition gives way to ennui gives way to acute boredom gives way to just not worth even opening any more.

I hereby bow formally out of this thread,

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:16 AM

Tatty bye me old duck.

If you get bored, Sainsburys have an offer on.....





Christ on a bike. What if everybody posted to say they weren't posting?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:44 AM

Another one joins the big baby wizzjet and the other no mark frauds...well no loss there, says I.

Well, sweet cheeks xxxxxxxx, this o'l gal wont be going anywhere..to much fun to be had hear..

Muskett sweety,as long as
you are dropping your pearls of wisdom I will hang around,

Poor old barnacle balls. he is a right Billy no mates aint he?

I do love it when self righteous prigs like jerk get shot with their own gun, don't thee?

If nothing else the thread needs people like me and sweet cheeks to keep a nice objective balance to the job.

If course, my job is the easiest

..exposing the arch toadying sneak and nautical fraud, Roger the cabin boy.....keep it up jerk..you are so out of our league it is laughable.

A few crayons are winging their way to you as we speak..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:09 PM

I'm with MtheGM. This thread has become extremely boring. Bye bye, you bunch of ridiculous, obsessive, petulant, self-indulgent tossers!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:20 PM

Ta ta.

Try not to start any threads personifying atheism for now eh? They only get the lampooning they deserve. Some of us go along with the lampooning and reverse adulation for a laugh.

Right with you wonderfulwobblybits xxxxxxx

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:30 PM

Am I confusing Shimrod with stringsinger?

Oh.

Which do I apologise to?

There again, apologising to anyone for any reason just encourages my entourage of idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:38 PM

Another no hoper has kicked the slats out of his playpen..I suppose it is to much to ask that the nautical sneak and fraud has also left town?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:47 PM

Use your phone, use the next door neighbor's connection, go to the library, do what you can to connect, Gust, I'm sure you've figured out the angles. There were miles of posts all from you on that IP address. So get a grip. You got bonked once and the message was clear. It's as easy to block several as one, but the point is, we shouldn't have to. Behave yourself. Stop stalking people. It's easier just to delete you, when it comes down to it.

The point of this thread has probably long since been lost, so if it gets too gnarly it'll probably get closed. I can't say by who, many people are tired of the back-biting that goes on in these long BS threads.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 10:45 AM

"The Ghost of Christmas Past
(And NO, I'm not GfS)"

CORRECT! With that guest tag on the front both you and Goofus are nobodies!

As am I!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 10:53 AM

Goofass, grow a pair and own up to it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:01 AM

"If God is Love,(and a lot more to those properties than just a 'feeling'), telling lies, making up stuff, being malicious is not out of bounds for Atheists...they don't care, and have no conscience of accountability...it's all about agenda, not honoring any set of higher values.
Bitch all you want, but it's true..and this thread is a perfect example."

My, doesn't get snarky when caught with its fingers in the cookie jar?

Incoherent too. Just look at the absolute bull pucky poated above. According to this refugee from the local funny farm, his choice of imaginary friend is the source of all the virtues, and without it everything goes to hell in a handcart.

His pretence of innocence not only includes a denial of his use of several IP addresses, but also his denial of authorship of posts which definitely came from his home PC.

Goofus, TELL IT TO THE MARINES!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 12:47 PM

This is what the thread is about:

One of the reasons that atheism has become strident in recent times is that today there are people who are religious bullies that show no tolerance for an atheist point of view. The evidence for this is the insulting idea that atheism or what I would prefer to call it, non-belief or FreeThought is uniform and somehow has a bible or doctrine. This attitude has no respect for non-belief and as a result deserves no respect in turn for those ideas that promulgate such bigoted opinions.


We can get along if an honest respect is shown for differing points of view without an attempt to mind-rape non-believers into forcing them into some kind of religion which not only doesn't make sense but insults their intelligence.

Ideas, religious or political need to be expressed in a rational non-rage-aholic way and condemnations by inflammatory threads to attack non-believers serves to shut down legitimate discourse.

Mudcat is not a religious or atheistic forum but a genuine attempt to share honest ideas even if we all don't agree.

Thanks, Joe, for offering a forum for honest opinions in an environment today where people in power attempt to suppress ideas that they don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 03:25 PM

I started this thread because there is a couple of religious people here who subtly trash non-believers. The thread that started this series was one that implied that so-called "militant atheism" is a religion. This is nonsense.

I agree wholeheartedly with what Stilly River Sage has to say.


"Is it fair to say that you start threads like this to trash non-believers. Or would you rather just admit that your statement is in error?"

This is pure sophistry. It's an attempt to belittle my defense against religious bullying and bigotry by twisting words.

"Are you aware that the constitution only protects people from government interference in their speech? It would be a good thing for you to keep in mind."

The Constitution protects people from unwarranted religious intrusion into their lives by prohibiting it as a litmus test for public office.



"The vitriol on this forum about religion on this forum comes overwhelmingly from a few people who are not religious and there is no lack of uncivilized talk on each and all of the topics you mentioned."

This is not true. There's plenty of religious bullying and vitriol to go around.

"On the topic of religion I don't see much civilized discussion on your part. You tend to lecture, "discussion" implies balanced communication."

On the contrary, the authoritarian pronouncements are not coming from me. I see no balanced communication coming on this topic with such nonsense as "militant atheism is a religion". That's not balanced, that's absurd.

>>I still maintain that there is a large percentage of religious people who take it upon themselves to deride or degrade non-belief because of their indoctrination.<<

"No one has argued that. Though I might ask you to put some numbers behind "large percentage."

The bulk of religious folk overwhelmingly denigrate non-believers and many of them are in government. They do so by implication if not violent reactions of a physical nature. The numbers are staggering, beyond an ability to tally them.

The prejudice against same-sex marriage is a case in point. Here's an article that defines the role of religion today on the subject of marriage.

Christian hypocrisy

"It has been argued that there are a few very vocal non-believers who take it upon themselves to deride or degrade belief because of their indoctrination or lack of it."

That percentage compared to those who deride non-belief is small. I would say that
belief systems need to be challenged if they defy logic just as Democratic Party members can challenge Republican Party members on the basis of their respective ideologies.

Name-calling such as referring to "militant atheism" is an attempt to belittle non-belief.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 04:05 PM

No Stilly,

That is not what this thread is about. This thread is about a few bickering mudcatters continuing their personal bickering on yet another thread.

The topic stopped being "Militant Atheism" about that four threads ago. Please tell me why stringsinger is the only person who is allowed to restate his position in one thread as an opening post in another. Once he was allowed to do it only changing one letter in the title.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 04:21 PM

Troubadour: "If God is Love,(and a lot more to those properties than just a 'feeling'), telling lies, making up stuff, being malicious is not out of bounds for Atheists...they don't care, and have no conscience of accountability...it's all about agenda, not honoring any set of higher values.
Bitch all you want, but it's true..and this thread is a perfect example."

Thanks Troubadour for posting that....It was another post that SRS deleted because she has a history of deleting posts that don't suck up to her personal 'ideology'...and this latest stunt of hers is just another way she uses to place politics over reality! ....

...then she has the audacity to post this!!: "Thanks, Joe, for offering a forum for honest opinions in an environment today where people in power attempt to suppress ideas that they don't like."

What a hypocrite!!!!!

GfS

P.S. Think this post will last long?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 04:46 PM

She was quoting Strinsinger. I think your post will last. It shows that you are not paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 05:31 PM

Jack,
   I saw that it was a quote....nonetheless, when different points of view are expressed, even not the ones that 'follow set ideologies', we as writers need that input in addressing topics that have national, and even international interest. To quash such discussions do not serve us musicians, AT ALL...
Stringsinger and I have had some differences in the past, but at least, they were/are honest differences...AND the main thing is, it causes us to think..beyond the typical 'talking point' crap that is being fed to us from the political parties, who meter and control the whole of the national dialogue!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term
From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 04:05 PM

No Stilly,

That is not what this thread is about. This thread is about a few bickering mudcatters continuing their personal bickering on yet another thread.

The topic stopped being "Militant Atheism" about that four threads ago. . .

So, this thread is finished.