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BS: 'Militant Atheism' is a propaganda term

Stringsinger 15 May 13 - 10:24 AM
Mrrzy 15 May 13 - 11:32 AM
olddude 15 May 13 - 11:38 AM
olddude 15 May 13 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 May 13 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Guest from sanity 15 May 13 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,gillymor 15 May 13 - 01:05 PM
Jim Carroll 15 May 13 - 01:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 May 13 - 01:35 PM
Bill D 15 May 13 - 02:00 PM
DMcG 15 May 13 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Musket sans respectability 15 May 13 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,gillymor 15 May 13 - 04:01 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 13 - 06:59 PM
GUEST,Eliza 15 May 13 - 07:06 PM
michaelr 15 May 13 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,Stim 15 May 13 - 09:25 PM
Ebbie 15 May 13 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,gillymor 15 May 13 - 09:53 PM
John P 16 May 13 - 01:52 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 13 - 09:04 AM
Stringsinger 16 May 13 - 10:59 AM
Mrrzy 16 May 13 - 12:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 May 13 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,olddude 16 May 13 - 03:32 PM
olddude 16 May 13 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,olddude 16 May 13 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Musket sans respectability 16 May 13 - 03:44 PM
olddude 16 May 13 - 04:01 PM
Stringsinger 16 May 13 - 05:36 PM
olddude 16 May 13 - 06:35 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 May 13 - 07:36 PM
Joe Offer 16 May 13 - 07:48 PM
GUEST 16 May 13 - 08:02 PM
Joe Offer 16 May 13 - 08:26 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 13 - 08:36 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 13 - 08:58 PM
Joe Offer 16 May 13 - 09:16 PM
olddude 16 May 13 - 11:22 PM
olddude 16 May 13 - 11:37 PM
GUEST,musket without sans 17 May 13 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,CS 17 May 13 - 03:36 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 13 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,gillymor 17 May 13 - 09:07 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 13 - 09:15 AM
John P 17 May 13 - 09:56 AM
John P 17 May 13 - 10:44 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 May 13 - 12:33 PM
Steve Shaw 17 May 13 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,CS 17 May 13 - 01:56 PM

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Subject: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 May 13 - 10:24 AM

One of the reasons that atheism has become strident in recent times is that today there are people who are religious bullies that show no tolerance for an atheist point of view. The evidence for this is the insulting idea that atheism or what I would prefer to call it, non-belief or FreeThought is uniform and somehow has a bible or doctrine. This attitude has no respect for non-belief and as a result deserves no respect in turn for those ideas that promulgate such bigoted opinions.


We can get along if an honest respect is shown for differing points of view without an attempt to mind-rape non-believers into forcing them into some kind of religion which not only doesn't make sense but insults their intelligence.


Ideas, religious or political need to be expressed in a rational non-rage-aholic way and condemnations by inflammatory threads to attack non-believers serves to shut down legitimate discourse.


Mudcat is not a religious or atheistic forum but a genuine attempt to share honest ideas even if we all don't agree.

Thanks, Joe, for offering a forum for honest opinions in an environment today where people in power attempt to suppress ideas that they don't like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 May 13 - 11:32 AM

All I ask politicians is that when they refer to "people of all faiths" they add the 2 little words "and none." Blair did that after 9-11, Obama did it in his 1st inaugural address. Rarely heard since then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 15 May 13 - 11:38 AM

Whatever, haven't we had enough of this shit lately .. but it is your right to keep the threads coming if you so wish ... But I bet I speak for more than a few when I say ... There is enough shit on mudcat and we don't need anymore shit flinging


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 15 May 13 - 11:39 AM

and I won't talk about my religious beliefs if you don't talk about yours


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 May 13 - 12:13 PM

amen!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 15 May 13 - 12:17 PM

Strident atheism not a religion ...but strident stupidity is!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 May 13 - 01:05 PM

That would be a nice touch, Mrrzy.
Good point about religious bullies, Stringsinger. I have one in my immediate family and several amongst my inlaws which makes for some pretty hairy holiday gatherings and although I've been a live and let live non-theist since I learned to think for myself (that is not a jab at the faithful) I lean toward strident atheism when confronted by them and other evangelical christians who try to force the "I am the way and the light" doctrine on me as well as their anti-choice and anti-gay agendas. Sadly, these folks, whose company I do enjoy (most of them, anyway) when not blungeoned with their religious discourse, would be bullies regardless of their religious inclinations as evidenced by their agressive political posturing. Not surprisingly they all get their marching orders from Rush Limbaugh. Christian fundamentalism seems to just be another weapon in their arsenal.
That said, a large majority of the christians I know are kind, charitable, non-judgemental people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 13 - 01:16 PM

"Whatever, haven't we had enough of this shit lately"
I sem to remember you opening a rather nasty thread on your own recently.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 May 13 - 01:35 PM

Ho hum. More and more and more and so to bed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 13 - 02:00 PM

...but is my lackadaisical and apathetic atheism a religion if I fervently work to keep it that way? I strongly resist any temptation to knock on the door of my local Jehovah's Witnesses Temple and ask them leading questions.

Scholars differ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:19 PM

True, Bill D, and of course it isn't rare to hear that someone practice an instrument religiously ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 15 May 13 - 03:25 PM

My religion is played on turf over 90 mins or 98 if you are away to Man Utd. Not that we get that privilege these days.

If I put what religious dudes call atheism to my Creed I would say that my brand of religion (Sheffield Wednesday) has less adherents than many other religions and the evidence shows my claims of the only team worth supporting would be seen to be shallow claims. Still, faith is faith and truth is truth. The one true path leads to S6 on a Saturday afternoon.

I don't want others to follow my religion and if you show me respect how the hell can we argue in the pub?

That's what puts it apart from most organised religions. It tolerates other religions, especially when taking 6 points off them in a season.

Oh. It doesn't tell me how to run my life either. It accepts that I will ring Praise or Grumble on BBC Radio Sheffield and have the odd bitch.

But the rest of the time it accepts I don't need someone to tell me how to behave and trusts me to be a responsible person who does the odd good deed for its own sake. It doesn't judge me when I piss in the bushes when staggering home from the pub and doesn't make me feel guilty about coveting my neighbour's missus. (To give a hypothetical situation.   Dear.   Fancy a cuppa? No. Just posting on mudcat my sweet. I didn't even realise he had a missus actually. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 May 13 - 04:01 PM

Yes, but the almighty NFL is the One True Football!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 13 - 06:59 PM

doesn't make me feel guilty about coveting my neighbour's missus.

Well I suppose it's better than coveting your neighbour's ass. Or not. Dammit, it might be. Have you got photos? Are you sure you're not just a little pissed off because CHELSEA have just triumphed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 May 13 - 07:06 PM

My feisty atheist neighbour in my previous village hated Jehovah's Witnesses coming round. She was in her front garden watering the flowers one Sunday when a pair arrived, beautifully dressed in posh outfits. She turned the hose on them and shouted "Okay! Let us spray!" I had to run out with a towel so they could dry off a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: michaelr
Date: 15 May 13 - 08:21 PM

Haha! I like your neighbour!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:25 PM

Your feisty, atheistic, neighbor turned the hose on people because she didn't like their religious beliefs. This is good? Help me out, because I am totally missing it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:48 PM

sheesh I doubt that it was because she "didn't like their religious beliefs." More because she objected to the proselytizing, the invasiveness, not to mention the wasted time that no one gets back.

I have never done anything overtly impolite to a visiting pair but I have most definitely been assertive in telling them that I have my own beliefs and that I don't feel obligated to discuss them. I have also told them that I would prefer that they not waste their time by coming back.

Once a few years ago on a public sidewalk I took a threatening step toward an unpleasant individual who wouldn't shut up (not JW or LDS) and he skedaddled. He really thought I was going to hit him. If he had stood still, perhaps I would have. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 May 13 - 09:53 PM

LOL, Eliza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: John P
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:52 AM

We can get along if an honest respect is shown for differing points of view

followed by

haven't we had enough of this shit lately

and

Strident atheism not a religion ...but strident stupidity is!!

Interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 09:04 AM

I would never be rude to Jehovah's Witnesses or anyone else who knocked on my door and I always take their handouts and read them. It's quite instructive. If they've called at a bad time I'll tell them so, politely, but more often I'll have a little chinwag with 'em. There are always areas of agreement in any case. Yes, it is a wonderful world and yes, it all fills me with wonder as to how it all got here, etc. But then I have to tell them that the theory of evolution by natural selection explains all the diversity, beauty and complexity of life on Earth and that, in my view, inexplicably-complex and highly improbable bolt-ons to that, God for example, are not required. You simply can't explain something by conjuring up an "explanation" that is, in itself, totally inexplicable! That's usually the prompt for a fond farewell!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:59 AM

"
Whatever, haven't we had enough of this shit lately .. but it is your right to keep the threads coming if you so wish ... But I bet I speak for more than a few when I say ... There is enough shit on mudcat and we don't need anymore shit flinging"

I bet you speak for quite a few people. Religious bullies are very good about shutting people up when they don't agree with them but they reserve the right to express their views freely.

The more insults that religious people give to atheists, the larger the atheist movement grows worldwide.

The reason that atheism has suddenly become strident is this very reaction of intolerance.

i don't even like the word "atheist" that much because it doesn't describe the level of non-belief. I'm not an "aunicornist" or and "aSantaclausist" or an "atoothfairiest" but I am fairly certain that there is no evidence for any god reserving the small percentage that I possibly could be wrong. With religious bullies, there is no uncertainty whatever.

The only reason that I keep this going is that my intelligence has been insulted by the idea that my non-belief is a religion. Why should I respect anyone's religious ideas when my own ideas are not respected but reviled?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 May 13 - 12:09 PM

...if you show me respect how the hell can we argue in the pub?

Exxactly.

Also hosing isn't a good idea unless it was really, really hot, or the people were once their clothes were wet (ducking and running for cover)...

Far better to try to convert *them* to rationality. Makes for a short discussion, usually, and they don't come back for a while, especially if you make it a point to flirt outrageously with the younger one and point out that the only reason not to have sex all the time like bonobos is pretty much their religion!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:07 PM

Mark me as stridently intolerant of all religious views. Athiestic as well. All very boring.

VAMOS !


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:32 PM

Yea I am a bully, I sit here minding my own business while you start another thread on the Gospel of Dawkins. Who is the bully here what don't you fucking get, people get sick of religious threads and the trolls who start them.   That includes atheist.

fucking clueless


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:41 PM

nobody I mean nobody gives a rats ass what someone believes or doesn't believe, that is entirely personal. However preaching on a music site is going to get some fiery reaction from other members in case ya didn't notice. Nobody give a shit about what anyone doesn't believe in or does believe in. fucking total clueless to think it matters. Like others have just posted, take you beliefs or non beliefs and keep your Gospel private as I do mine. Nobody cares what I believe or don't, likewise with Dawkins followers. if it is so important to preach go knock on doors. More than a few people have already said this time and again


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:42 PM

try a hobby, me and Will and Q like old watches. Bobster like chainsaws and antiques. for fuck sake


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 16 May 13 - 03:44 PM

Old dude. Have you the ISBN or the American book reference for this gospel of Dawkins? I would like to read it because you have me at a disadvantage.

In the clueless stakes, between Galileo and the Pope of the day, I know where I'd place my money. ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 04:01 PM

All organized religion has its evil also because it is a function of man. Me I walk my own path anc certainly don't try to tell others mine is best or there's is stupid. My point is, Who cares what anyone believes or doesn't. I don't ask my friends what they believe or don't believe. I simply cherish them. I never ever read so much hate as I have in both the atheist threads and the religious thread. Ya know it is always a mistake to lump people into a general category but Strings seems to love doing that if you read all his posts.

My point is who have you helped today, who's day did you make better .. I bet I already know the answer. so like I said ... most catters are pissed off over all of these threads religious or atheist. They are productive to noone


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:36 PM

What is it about religion that makes people so angry? Why is it that a civilized discussion about it can't take place?

If it is such a problem, why even bother to respond to this thread or any other about
this issue?   If people are tired of this topic they have the option not to respond and ignore it and can curb their hostility.

The reason that atheists today are strident is precisely because there is a tendency to put non-believers in a little box and make all kinds of theories up about why they believe what they do. They are reviled by many people who are intolerant. They are treated as if they are sick puppies. Their stridency means they have been unduly maligned over the years.

Obviously, people do care about this issue since they bother to reply to it.

Why do threads pop up that try to define atheists as having pain, or another religion, or any futile pseudo-psychological analysis of their motives?

What is it about religion that makes people defensive? Is it that their own beliefs are shaky?

Why is religion considered such a sacred topic that it can't be talked about in the way we discuss politics or issues of social concerns or any other topic for that matter?

The thread that stated the canard that atheism was a kind of religion seems to have a lot of Mudcatters responding to it. That thread was helpful if it really got people thinking about it.   This thread is an answer to that other one.


I feel no hostility to anyone personally to anyone on Mudcat but there are a lot of bigoted and silly ideas floating around that need a response and deserve no respect.

One of them is that non-belief is a religion. Personally, I don't care what you believe as long as you don't attack atheists by foolish interpretations of how they think. Then that deserves a rational response.

Also, this is the BS section, not the music section and it's appropriate to discuss many topics here, some which may be uncomfortable.

Otherwise what's the point of having a BS section at all? Just "shut up and sing!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:35 PM

cause ya got three threads going on all with the same subject ... The issue has been debated to death. And it ain't just atheists either. It is the same issue with the neighbor lady that came to my house two years ago from the assembly of God Church. First I was polite but brief, the second time in the same week I was less then polite. The third time in the same week I went off on her and said my belief is private. My relationship with God is private. Nobody cares what you believe or don't Take it elsewhere. Likewise all these threads ever accomplish is a pissing match and nothing ever changes. Why bother. Everyone I talk to on mudcat gets fed up with them but is afraid to say anything. Me I am not afraid to say anything. But hey if it floats yer boat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:36 PM

Come autumn, I worship the Great Pumpkin, I partake of his flesh in wondrous pies; my recipe is the best!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:48 PM

{{{{{ Mrrzy }}}}}}


...or more than that???


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:02 PM

Everyone I talk to on mudcat gets fed up with them but is afraid to say anything.

Well, you are an angry man it would seem, but angry men get listened to better if they refrain from making up this kind of rubbish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:26 PM

Stringsinger, olddude has a point. The recent overabundance of threads on atheism is annoying, no matter who has started them. There was already a thread titled BS: Militant atheism has become a religion - and there were already far too many atheist threads before that. Anything said in this thread, could have been said in the other threads.

You ask, Why is it that a civilized discussion about it can't take place? Well, I like to talk about religious issues; but I don't want to be in a place where people think I'm pushing my religion on somebody else. I also don't really want to be forced into a place where I feel pressured to defend my religion. And I'm sorry, but I feel no need to apologize for molester priests or abusive nuns or obnoxious door-to-door evangelists - I have never supported any of those activities at any time in my life, so why should I feel bound to apologize for them. I've devoted my life to social justice and tolerance, so why should I feel compelled to apologize for anyone who is unjust or intolerant? I've questioned my religious faith and my religious denomination (Catholic) all my life. I know damn well what are the shortcomings of my religious denomination, and I've fought those shortcomings for decades. I don't want to be condemned for those shortcomings, because I have never supported them.

I've known about the Spanish Inquisition and child molesting priests all my life, and I have NEVER supported them - but yet I am continually attacked in this forum because of them. I've been called a child molester in this forum, simply because I'm Catholic - and despite the fact that I have worked long and hard to prevent sexual abuse in my church.

I do have a strong religious faith. I see the sacred in most everything that surrounds me - but I want to enjoy and appreciate that and I really don't want to defend it or argue about it. I have utmost respect for science and the scientific method - but I also enjoy what I see as an experience of the presence of the divine in all that science describes. But that's a personal thing, and I don't want to burden others with that if they don't see things the way I see them.

Aside to pete from seven stars link: I'm sorry, but I can't see the creation story in the bible as scientific truth. I think Darwin does a far better job of describing how it happened, even though some details may be different. Still, I see the Bible as an important statement of the presence of the divine from before the beginning of all things. If other people don't see the divine in what I see, that's fine with me - just don't bug me about it.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:36 PM

That guest was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:58 PM

In rational, grown-up debates, I see no harm is asking people to defend their religious faith. Not that you belong to a Catholic church that contains abusing priests, etc. That's your affair. I've worked in schools with head teachers and senior staff that I've hated, but they were not the really important people and I didn't leave. For forty years I've been a member of a trade union that I think has been lily-livered in almost every aspect of what unions are supposed to be for, but I fought from within to try to make it better. You're not guilty just because you mindfully stick with something. But religion in general has been cosseted for millennia. We are supposed to be gentle on religion (it was worse at one time, of course, what with heresy laws and what have you). We are supposed to tolerate religious symbolism and iconography and ceremony as the default settings of society. We get shouted at for suggesting that children should be raised as free thinkers, not shackled to a faith that they belong to only by accident of birth. It's curmudgeonly to criticise harvest festivals in which the laziest bugger in existence is praised for his alleged bountiful gifts (and we ignore the pests and diseases and droughts he puts in our way, of course). It's mean to suggest we deprive little children of the Christmas fairytale with its carols and Christingles. But these things are manifestations of the faith, peddled as truth, that you don't think you should have to defend. I'm not sure about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 13 - 09:16 PM

And so, Steve, what would your ideal world be? How must I behave to make you happy? Must I apologize every time I sing a carol, and appreciate icons only behind closed doors because they may offend someone? Should I shroud the Vatican in canvas, and grind the Pieta into gravel? What is it that would make you happy?

If I'm thankful to Whomever or Whatever for abundance and if I ask for deliverance from pestilence, what's it to you?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 11:22 PM

You are right Steve I am angry. I have one thread on pocket and wrist watches. I don't start a new daily thread on them. I add to the thread that already exists. If you want to do your preaching, pick one of the 1000 threads that you bash everyone of any belief and go at it. The the rest of us don't have to wade through your preaching when we want to talk to our friends who lost a loved one or those are sick and getting chemo. Or just need some Spaw laughs. Instead we all have to jump over your preaching threads. I don't care what you believe or don't believe. I could give a rats ass wasting time trying to explain my beliefs because they, unlike yours are personal and private. You feel the need to aggravate half of the mudcat community with your new never ending thread preaching. Like I said if it is so important to you .. go knock on doors. I would say the same thing if one of the other believers in God did what you keep doing ... IE preaching about their beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: olddude
Date: 16 May 13 - 11:37 PM

I would expect people to get mad at me if I started an pocket watch Elgin thread, then a hamilton thread, then a waltham thread, and a howard thread, and a omega thread all saying the exact same f'in thing. so people have to jump over a dozen of them every time they want to find out how Spaw is doing or Kendall or anything else. Pick a thread, have at it instead of driving everyone nuts. Then we can all jump over it and read what we really want to read


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,musket without sans
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:25 AM

All the threads on pocket watches wind me up.

(Sorry. Couldn't help it)

The relevance to this thread escapes me though. Forgive me if I am wrong but this thread is about Sheffield Wednesday. Ok. It is about how rational normal people get fed up of other otherwise normal people putting them in a box so they can compare them with their own hobby. The more some people try to stifle the debate the more their stance is shown for what it is. Religion is a jealous Creed and the moment you questioniit the more the victim mentality comes through.

BBC Question Time last night was a point in case. A questioner said that as a few thousand people had signed a petition against gay marriage on religious grounds the government had to drop the bill. It was pointed out that in the room of 200 people he was in a very small minority. That made him angry. Angry that God was subject to democracy. Sadly his supporters included a cabinet minister. The defence secretary of all people. But not the ex cabinet minister who was gay and an ex vicar for that matter.

Straw men? A minister of the realm and a sad young man with unkempt hair and an attitude join together to wish to coerce people using religion as their tool?

I'm off to buy some 4x2 and a bag of nails. Get as many as I can before its too late. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:36 AM

I don't take issue with religion at all, apart from where it impacts massively on the world in extremely evil ways. Islam, Catholicism and Judaism can all go to hell. Buddhism and Wicca not so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 13 - 05:26 AM

Olddude, the answer is really, really simple. Don't open the bloody thread. Hope this helps.

Joe, no-one is asking you to defend your individual actions. In your earlier post you wished that you didn't have to defend your religion. Well, I might go to bed thinking about Marilyn Monroe every night. How would you know? But you'd be bloody annoyed if I stuck Marilyn Monroe posters and statues up all over your town and tried to force the schoolkids to learn her life story. Your religion gets everywhere, whether you like it or not, so I'm saying it had better be good. That's what I mean by saying you don't necessarily get to be left alone. That's what religion has demanded for itself (sometimes under pain of death) for millennia. It's now time for religion's adherents to do some staunch defending. When you think about it, it would be one good way of making religion a lot better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:07 AM

Interesting perspective at the Huffington Post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:15 AM

That is excellent. Thanks for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: John P
Date: 17 May 13 - 09:56 AM

Olddude, you don't seem to understand that attitudes like yours are why some atheists get sore. Apparently we do need more atheist threads, and more, and more, until you and your ilk figure out that atheism isn't a religion, isn't a belief system, isn't being forced on anyone, isn't even usually talked about until someone launches a religious attack on us or advocates making laws that don't line up with the First Amendment.

keep your Gospel private as I do mine.

Bullshit asshole speech. Saying this, after everything that's been said on the subject, is an attack. Get a clue.

The the rest of us don't have to wade through your preaching

More bullshit asshole speech, and, as Steve has noted, no one is forcing you to read.

and I won't talk about my religious beliefs if you don't talk about yours

More bullshit asshole speech, and you DO talk about your religion a lot, usually in a way that is a put-down of anyone who doesn't share it.

I would say the same thing if one of the other believers in God did what you keep doing ... IE preaching about their beliefs.

But you don't. In fact, you started one of the threads and have been one of the biggest puerile jerks toward atheists in all of them. Here's the deal: you don't get to go around being an asshole toward people and then expect them to be polite to you. You don't get to tell them to shut up and go away while you are saying rude things. Until you learn to speak politely to people who don't share your beliefs, you can expect to called on it. And, after a certain point that you reached some time back, you can expect them to stop being polite themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: John P
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:44 AM

I should add that there has been a fair bit of asshole behavior from atheists as well. Calling someone a "god botherer", while sort of funny, is rude. Bringing rapist priests and the history of religious intolerance and violence into every discussion of religion is not only rude but really stupid. People get to believe whatever they like, and the only time the rest of us get to talk negatively about them is when they attack people who don't share their beliefs or when they advocate making of laws that are based on religion. In other words, there's no reason to kick people unless they're stepping on your toes, and then you only get to kick them enough to get them off your toes.

Part of the problem, of course, is that many of the religious people are so smugly self-centered that they don't even realize how rude they are being, so trying to get them to stop looks like an attack to them. By "smugly self-centered" I mean that many people seem to think that being religious is the only normal way to live one's life, and that anyone who doesn't share their beliefs is weird and alien.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 May 13 - 12:33 PM

Hey! A Marilyn Monroe religion. May rival the Great Pumpkin.

Come Fall, the Great Pumpkin will deliver his seeds. In the seeds is the Word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:13 PM

By "smugly self-centered" I mean that many people seem to think that being religious is the only normal way to live one's life

Exactly. I don't especially feel like being shouted down by people who assume that religion is the correct default position of society, then get told I'm rude and abusive to Christians when I inform them that that they are plain wrong and they should, instead, keep it entirely to themselves. Including away from children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strident atheism not a religion
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:56 PM

John P: "Bringing rapist priests and the history of religious intolerance and violence into every discussion of religion is not only rude but really stupid."

Do you actually think that? Because I find it incredible that you would think that these huge issues are not relevant.

]It's essentially saying, "bringing all the incredibly bad things that religion has caused into every discussion about religion is not only rude, but really stupid."]


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