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Poor Performers & What to do?

Ron Davies 22 May 13 - 04:42 PM
Ron Davies 22 May 13 - 04:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 May 13 - 03:58 PM
The Sandman 22 May 13 - 01:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 May 13 - 01:48 PM
The Sandman 22 May 13 - 11:17 AM
Johnny J 22 May 13 - 10:28 AM
GUEST 22 May 13 - 10:14 AM
TheSnail 22 May 13 - 09:31 AM
The Sandman 22 May 13 - 08:41 AM
The Sandman 22 May 13 - 08:35 AM
TheSnail 22 May 13 - 07:46 AM
The Sandman 22 May 13 - 06:49 AM
Ebbie 21 May 13 - 04:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 May 13 - 03:32 PM
Ron Davies 21 May 13 - 02:01 PM
Ebbie 21 May 13 - 02:01 PM
Ron Davies 21 May 13 - 01:45 PM
The Sandman 21 May 13 - 07:10 AM
TheSnail 21 May 13 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie) 21 May 13 - 02:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 May 13 - 01:42 AM
Ebbie 20 May 13 - 08:40 PM
Jack Campin 20 May 13 - 06:56 PM
Ebbie 20 May 13 - 04:00 PM
My guru always said 20 May 13 - 03:02 PM
Howard Jones 20 May 13 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,John Foxen 20 May 13 - 02:54 PM
The Sandman 20 May 13 - 02:47 PM
Ebbie 20 May 13 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,mickyp 20 May 13 - 02:05 PM
The Sandman 20 May 13 - 02:04 PM
Megan L 20 May 13 - 01:03 PM
The Sandman 20 May 13 - 12:50 PM
Ron Davies 20 May 13 - 12:35 PM
Johnny J 20 May 13 - 12:25 PM
Ebbie 20 May 13 - 10:41 AM
The Sandman 20 May 13 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 13 - 03:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 May 13 - 03:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 13 - 03:22 AM
Richard Bridge 20 May 13 - 03:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 13 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 20 May 13 - 02:55 AM
Ebbie 19 May 13 - 09:35 PM
Harmonium Hero 19 May 13 - 08:43 PM
dick greenhaus 19 May 13 - 08:28 PM
Ron Davies 19 May 13 - 08:00 PM
Harmonium Hero 19 May 13 - 07:13 PM
Maryrrf 19 May 13 - 05:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:42 PM

Though I would say that the poster owes Ebbie an apology.   Not that she is likely to get it.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:41 PM

"also good manners". Precisely.

I was not the one who needlessly picked a fight with Ebbie, whose question, you may recall, is the subject of the thread.

Physician, heal thyself.

It's also interesting, that, if in the poster's considered opinion, I am trolling, the esteemed poster appears ignorant of the first rule of dealing with trolling: don't respond.


She is happy-- for excellent reasons-- that the poster will not be performing for her.   We can only hope that the poster himself is as happy.

Then everybody will be happy.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:58 PM

Oh, I see! Hahahaha. Metro, Gnome! I get it! Never heard that before...

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:51 PM

DAVE THE GNOME, had any good rides on the metro of late


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:48 PM

To set the record straight when I mentioned people not turning up it was no-one on here. It was someone I really wanted to see and I was disappointed when they didn't arrive. Out of respect for the artist and because I would not malign anyone I will never name them. If anyone on here did not turn up at any gigs, sorry, but I didn't notice.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 13 - 11:17 AM

good points bryan, and that is why the organiser chooses who sings at the club, its bad point is that audiences in acertain area can be deprived of seeing a certain performer, answer to that is for someone to start a different club preferably not on the same day


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Johnny J
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:28 AM

Oops, last post was from me... Johnny J (I lost my cookies)


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:14 AM

At our club(We certainly don't always get things right), we have to turn people down for a variety or reasons. In many cases, some of the acts are really good and we might even enjoy them ourselves under other circumstances.

We are fortunate enough to have a very good venue but, therein, lies other issues. It holds a maximum of roughly 150 people which is great when we wish to book the Carthys, Simpsons, Gaughans of this world. However, the lay out of the room ensures that it's still a nice atmosphere with between 50-70 people and so we don't necessarily have to have the place "packed to the gunnels" every week.

However, when we get much below 50 or so people, it can start to look a little more spacious and if we only bring in around 20-30 it can sometimes feel a wee bit depressing. Also, it even influence the actual performance although guests are expected to be professional... Usually, a nice "buzz" about the place rubs off on the main guest and the perfromance does gain an extra edge.

It's also the case, that unlike many other clubs, our overheads are quite high and we would normally require to have an audience of 50+ to break even on most nights.

As it is, some of our nights don't always break even(For various reasons) although it *usually* balances out over the year. However, when booking acts we have to do so on the basis that they have at least a "fighting chance" of paying their way. Of course, not all of them will do this no matter how well we plan for the situation.

So, that leaves lots of good performers many of whom are quality acts whom we have to disappoint not because of their musical (in)ability but because they wont "suit" our venue. However, for a smaller club with few overheads, such acts are ideal.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 13 - 09:31 AM

Dick, you did indeed give us an excellent and professional performance at your last booking. I'm sorry you didn't get the attendance you deserved but it was neither our fault nor yours. Long after we had arranged the booking someone else arranged a private event on the same evening which drew away a large part of the potential audience. These things happen. Mumford and Sons are taking over the town for a weekend in a couple of months. I'm not sure how that will affect us.

there may be reasons such as poor publicity on the organisers part or a that is not popular venue

No. Poor attendance is relative to the norm. The case I had in mind consistently brought in single figures. I think the previous booking secretary had fobbed them off but I was a bit more honest and got cries of "unfair". They started lobbying the rest of the committee. They didn't get the booking.

The main point that I'm trying to make is that those looking for bookings need to have realistic expectations of organisers. We aren't professionals. We aren't getting paid. We are doing it for the love of it. We have some right to please ourselves how we do it.

Earlier someone said "the Guest slightly further down the thread who started off a post by stating "I don't much like Scottish songs" maybe shows the pitfalls there could be with one person holding too much sway". (With a smiley I grant you.) Er sorry? Why should someone put time and effort for free into organising an event they wouldn't enjoy?


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 13 - 08:41 AM

So to put it Succintly, Honesty is what is required, but also good manners.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 13 - 08:35 AM

Bryan, I had a very enjoyable gig at your club, a couple of months ago, and you were very kindly paid me a compliment about my singing and concertina playing and my professionalism., you said and I hope you dont mind me quoting you, " that i was a very good singer and concertina player"
so I will attempt to answer that question,
I am perfectly prepared to be told no, your style of music does not fit in with our booking policy, something I might expect lets say from Hitchin folk club,
I am also prepared to accept no, I do not like you, I would think that rather sad, because there may be some people who would like to see me despite the organisers dislike, but it just has to be accepted.
however I regard it as swings and roundabouts, for everyone who doesnt like you there will be one who does, for example I have been booked 25 times in the last 50 years at Stockton folk club, and was given a stockton 50 year sold t shirt to prove it [howmany of my detractors on this thread who do not know me personally can say that?.I regularly get booked at The Wilsons Folk Club, they are fine singers them selves so I regard that as a compliment
I am also prepared to accept sorry you did not draw a crowd[ there may be reasons such as poor publicity on the organisers part or a that is not popular venue or any number of reasons a football match world cup on the same night guest not being popular in the immediate vicinty[ that can happen to evryone] in the end the organiser whio is funding it has the final decision is to who they book, musicians have to accept that.
my visit to your club was poorly attended, however the night before i had a very good attendance at Swindon folk club, I do not know the reason for the poor attendance at your club, but I do appreciate the way you treated me, and I would fully understand if you felt unable to book me again, its one of those things, I had good attendances at Deal folk club, Stamford folk club and Faversham, not very far from you. all clubs in southe east kent or sussex.
if anyone is silly enough to make judgements on a performer on the basis of an internet discussion forum, well that would be a very sad indictment of why we are all trying enjoy and to play this music. Organisers should be straight forward, that does not mean they should say "we dont book any old tom dick or harry here" this actually happened to one highly respected concertina player and singer from the north of England.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:46 AM

Ebbie

I got a communication from someone we used last year saying s/he was available again this year and looking forward to it. Well, we don't really want him/her again in the foreseeable future.

Yes, it is dificult. The trouble is, we're all terribly nice and don't want to say "No we don't want to book you because you're crap.". Our set up is rather different from yours. We book a guest for two 45 minute slots and fill the rest of the time with residents and floor spots, usually only for one somg per head. The main guest will be someone we have experience of, either directly or by trusted friends, so we rarely get a dud. We never book on the basis of CDs or Soundcloud or YouTube. If we've booked someone several times and they consistently fail to pull an audience, it can be difficult. Fobbing them off with an excuse can backfire as I've discovered to my cost.

We get far more requests for bookings than we can possibly accommodate so "I'm sorry we haven't got an available slot" is no more or less than the truth. As has been pointed out, there are a lot of artists chasing a finite supply of bookings. I hope that most of them realise that we do have to make choices.

Perhaps some of the professional performers on here would like to tell us how they would like to be given the thumbs down.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:49 AM

"thought about this matter"

I assure you the role of Lancelot is not type-casting for me. But the dear poster picked a fight with Ebbie---who had a perfectly reasonable question, and treated all the answers with respect---needlessly.

I'm so glad to know he does know the meaning of temerity.

It's also good to see he has discovered the joys of grammar--for somebody who actually wants to communicate.    Unless of course one of the goals is to protest the bourgeois restrictions of good English. Perhaps that's part of being a good soldier.

The overwhelming majority of us have provided calm constructive advice, without casting aspersions on Ebbie, who is only trying to do her best in her role in the venue she describes. It seems a reasonable request--and most of us have managed it."
i have provided calm constructive advice, namely to run workshops with excess money, I also suggested that this is the sort of thing that should be sorted out before an organiser starts an event, quite a sensible suggestion,I am not picking a fight with anyone, I believe this shouldbe thought about before anyone starts organising anything.
you on the other hand have decided to pick a fight with me one of your posts is a good example of trolling and flaming, the post above is a second example of flaming, Ron your sarcastic tone is unecessary, give it a break, please


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 May 13 - 04:13 PM

To me it definitely would, DtG. We haven't had that happen. Yet. :)


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 13 - 03:32 PM

Does poor performance include guests who do not turn up when they are supposed to?

DtG


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 May 13 - 02:01 PM

"should have thought this out".   Don't want to misquote the illustrious poster.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 May 13 - 02:01 PM

"...people who are more inclined to be 'liberals'....and 'liberals' often have a 'sense of entitlement'...that is 'I play and sing, we agree politically, therefore you owe me the chance to get up, and 'perform'..or you are a 'bad guy' and 'not really as cool as you are supposed to be'."

GfS, that takes the cake! Wherever did you come up with this 'truism'? lol

To theSnail, what brought up this subject to my mind is that I got a communication from someone we used last year saying s/he was available again this year and looking forward to it. Well, we don't really want him/her again in the foreseeable future. In my response to the person I suggested a local commercial gig, with the implication that that place draws many people of her/his age. 'Bout the best I could do...


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:45 PM

"thought about this matter"

I assure you the role of Lancelot is not type-casting for me. But the dear poster picked a fight with Ebbie---who had a perfectly reasonable question, and treated all the answers with respect---needlessly.

I'm so glad to know he does know the meaning of temerity.

It's also good to see he has discovered the joys of grammar--for somebody who actually wants to communicate.    Unless of course one of the goals is to protest the bourgeois restrictions of good English. Perhaps that's part of being a good soldier.

The overwhelming majority of us have provided calm constructive advice, without casting aspersions on Ebbie, who is only trying to do her best in her role in the venue she describes. It seems a reasonable request--and most of us have managed it.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:10 AM

Ron Davies, I said, the organiser should have thought this out before running an event.
you have subsequently decided to attack me personally with this-"unless anybody has the temerity (look it up) to disagree with you on anything.

Or perhaps you treat your audiences differently and reserve your wonderful tolerance and charm, on display in this thread, for us. Lucky us."
    it seems like you are attempting to stop my right to disagree about something, by suggesting that I do not allow anyone to disagree with me.
To suggest that someone should have thought about this matter before organising an event is not intolerant, it is just good organisation.   
To suggest I do not know the meaning of temerity is    a good example of flaming and trolling.
THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE STANDARDS,is to use excess money to send people to workshops or pay for them to have individual lessons either instrumental or vocal.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:34 AM

Some of us put a lot of hard work into helping run clubs and without our help the club probably would not exist.

Thanks, Eddie. This sort of thread always seems to involve a certain amount of organiser bashing. We are all volunteers. We don't get any training. We don't have to pass any exams. We may not be the best we could be but we're the best you've got.

I help organise a club that is run by a committee and while all the residents are fine performers, we are not the main draw and stand back for the guests and floor singers. We have a policy of trying to give a floor spot to ayone who wants one, time permitting. Last Saturday we had to get in extra chairs; we must be getting something right.

With the policy of Ebbie's venue, I think the occasional dud is inevitable. Surely the audience realise this and for $5 I don't think they,ve got much cause for complaint. From one of her posts -

We have completed eight seasons (October through March) and our audiences have steadily grown in size.

What's the problem?


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie)
Date: 21 May 13 - 02:08 AM

This is one of these threads that will probably still be running many years from now with contributions into the thousands.
A few things are clear to me so far:
Some of us are not nearly as good as we think we are.
Some of us put a lot of hard work into helping run clubs and without our help the club probably would not exist.
Some of us are really thrilled to get the chance to perform in front of an audience even if we are rubbish.
Some of us would benefit from friendly evaluation of our performance.
Some of us would curl up and die if we were criticised.
Clubs are different, some big and successful, some small and just limping along.
There is room for all kinds.
The audience will decide for themselves what they are prepared to put up with.
Any club that doesn't hold some kind of support/audience will fold.
None of this is any help whatsoever!

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:42 AM

If the performance is costing the audience money, then it is up to the organizers to give them the best bang for the buck...and not be so unwilling to draw a line, for those who do not take their craft seriously enough to do their HOMEWORK! To charge admission, and then put up cheesy performers, would, in fact, be arrogant. If someone wants to do the gig, let them know early enough, that you EXPECT a performance, that does not embarrass everyone else involved, because you also have next year. This happens more with 'folk festivals', which more often than not, cater to, and are catered by, people who are more inclined to be 'liberals'....and 'liberals' often have a 'sense of entitlement'...that is 'I play and sing, we agree politically, therefore you owe me the chance to get up, and 'perform'..or you are a 'bad guy' and 'not really as cool as you are supposed to be'....well, you know what?....that's all fine and dandy, but come back when your act is not all about YOU....come back when you care enough about everything, that you do your homework....there are plenty of people who have!
If they are interested, let them know you are 'particular'...on behalf of the show, the audience, and all the other acts!
Don't allow them to throw a 'guilt trip' on you...they either can cut it, or they can't. You can tell them 'No', and they may get pissed off or miffed....BUT, it also may cause them to get off their lazy asses, and come back better, too....in which case, they would thank you, later!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 13 - 08:40 PM

Jack Campin, that's another good idea! We have discussed stockpiling the excess for the occasional guest artist who may not be available any other way. I'm kind of reluctant to do that, mainly because we have so many great musicians here in town, people that I'd like to see make some money from their art. In other words, I'd like to see them make some of the "hundreds of dollars that can be made" from folk music. :)

There are a good many workshops and music camps and music teachers available in Juneau, mostly for youngsters. What I would like to see is songwriting clubs and workshops, harmony workshops, drop-in jamming places, things along that line. Ideally, we would have/rent/own a public place for all those things plus more - the problem is that we don't want to charge more for these concerts, which means that we won't have enough money any time soon. :)

Once a year, at Alaska Folk Festival time, we have all those things but that week goes by awfully fast.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 May 13 - 06:56 PM

If there is spare money left over at the end of the year, would it make sense to invest it in some sort of community music venture, like a samba school? A lot of people who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket can make a great contribution to something like that.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:00 PM

Hils, I have already received a glowing report of you AND your musical abilities from a Mudcatter near and dear to both of us. :)

Thanks, guys. You've given me lots to think about and mull over.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: My guru always said
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:02 PM

Ebbie Dear, what Howard said!

You're doing a fantastic job keeping music alive in your Community, keep it up however you can. If you can encourage others to make music along the way that's great. If you can spur people into improving their performance that's even better. But it sounds like your Community appreciates what you're doing and it's wonderful that your excess funds go to a well-deserved recipient!

Personally if I were ever in the area I'd be glad to sing a few songs, I'd even audition *grin*
Hils


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:55 PM

Ebbie, it sounds like the primary purpose of your group is to facilitate music in a small community. It that's the case, then perhaps you have to forget about 'quality control' in the interests of encouraging as many as possible to play.

However as well as satisfying yourself and the performers you also have to satisfy the audience. You have to find a way to explain that philosphy to them. If they buy into it, then you're on a winner. If not, then you may have to be selective and only book performers by invitation after having heard them play.   There's no reason you shouldn't give improvers a chance to do a couple of songs, perhaps even have part of the evening as an open mic. However allowing all-comers a 20 minute slot regardless of their ability risks losing your audience.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:54 PM

Wow, Ebbie. Is this Juneau, Alaska, we are talking about? Looking at the map I can see your problems but I think you are making great strides to deal with them. More power to your elbow.
There isn't an easy solution to dealing with poor performers. If you have a small catchment area -- and this can happen even in a big town -- then you have to work with what you can get. There isn't an easy way to tell someone that they are not going to get a booking or a repeat booking at your club. The lines you used in your original post are quite reasonable but those who want to take offence will.
There was a post some time ago in which a performer complained he had been told by a club organiser that he was good but wasn't right for the club. He took offence at what I see as a very reasonable comment. There have been performers seeking gigs at the small club on the outskirts of London I help to run who I thought were very good wouldn't have been able to hold our particular audience for a whole evening.
Also there may be performers who are technically impressive yet whose personality would alienate the audience - and they can be far worse than poor but pleasant performers.
You might consider changing the format of your club. Instead of 20 minute slots, you might try allocating short slots of one or two songs to all-comers then giving longer slots to better artists. If someone comes along for a couple of songs and is obviously good then invite them back and increase their time.
To find locally talented people you might try holding singarounds - informal gatherings in a pub or a hall where you go round the room inviting everyone in turn to sing, recite or play. This could encourage people who might be intimidated by the idea of standing up on a stage for the first time.
Best of luck. Foxen would love to play at your venue but sadly I don't think we'll make it the States.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:47 PM

". At the end of the season we decide where the excess money should go."
might i suggest with your excess money you provide appropriate workshops, so that some of your performers have a chance of improving, that would be a positive step in attempting to raise standards.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:08 PM

One more time, for clarity's sake:

This is a small community, much smaller than our 30,000 in population would indicate. Unlike almost any other town our size 'down south' or in the UK, our town is isolated and remote- our nearest big town is 600 miles away - by air. By road our nearest big town is more than 800 miles away - so we can't draw either performers or audiences from the towns around us. The towns and villages 'close' to us are at least 4 hours away by ferry.

What you see in Juneau is what you get. Fortunately, Juneau has a great many talented people, not least of which is our musical community. I come from Oregon in a town almost identical in size to Juneau but it has nowhere the caliber of talent evident here.

Our working premise- or at least my rationale - is what I said to an acquaintance who had recently relocated to a village and complained that there was no music there: If my new town has 1000 residents, I know that at least 30 of them make music. Of that 30, I know at least 10 would like to make music with other people; I am going to find those 10.

And so we started our series. It is not a club- it has no members, no dues, no costs other than the $5.00 at the door. In return people get to know talented musicians of their community, a low-cost evening out, a goodies intermission with the opportunity to socialize with friends and strangers alike. Many of our performers have become great favo(u)rites in our town.

It is low key and informal, but also reliable and just plain fun. There are not, in my judg(e)ment, many experiences more pleasurable than going home with your head and heart full of music.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,mickyp
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:05 PM

Over the years ive heard alot of the UK artists who have replyed to this thread performing. All i can say is that they have got away with it for so long why cant others. Cheers all !


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:04 PM

Megan L,
I disagree, in my experience, a lot of performers tend to under estimate their abilties, most of them would benefit form the sort of helpful environment and guidance that MacColl and Seeger and the Critics group provided.
my experience has been considerable 40 years ,furthermore there are videos on you tube of me singing and playing.
perhaps you could provide some videos of yourself, since you seem to have an opinion, that appears to denigrate a lot of people, who you seem to think overestimate themselves and their abilities


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Megan L
Date: 20 May 13 - 01:03 PM

Unfortunately a lot of people think more of themselves and their abilities than those who have to suffer listening to them or indeed reading their posts do.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:50 PM

there may be quite a few talented mudcatters, whether they are prepared to travel miles and can afford to do so is a different matter.
ron davies, you understood perfectly what i was saying, i hope you enjoy scoring points and being pedantic.
Ron, I play music purely for pleasure, which is why I would not travel hundreds of miles to Ebbies club EVEN IF SHE PAID ME, because it would not be pleasurable
Neither I could I afford the travelling cost.,
however I run a singers club in my village and participate and run a weekly trad music session, I also run a folk festival and AM INVOLVED IN RUNNING a jazz festival all of which are unpaid, so dont lecture me about playing or promoting music and receiving no money.
you, like Ebbie do not know me personally, you seem to be prejudging me on a remark I made which was critical of the need for Ebbies post as an organiser., a remark that i stand by, you should have this issue sorted out before you run any event
in plain anglo saxon, Ron, go and play feticules somewhere else


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:35 PM

"since you dont (sic) pay anybody (sic) what do you expect (sic)." ( Is grammar anti-folkie?)



It ain't necessarily so.    For instance, there are quite a few talented Mudcatters who are willing to play and sing for the joy of it--and people like to hear them--and participate themselves in the music. Yes, they are not professionals.    This does not mean they are incompetent.   They probably have the luxury of having music as an avocation, a passion--not a job.

It's likely---in fact it's clear--- that there are talented people in Ebbie's area.   All she's trying to do is minimize the number of perfomers at her venue who think they have a lot more talent than they do.

As has been pretty clearly established, in order to deal with the problem, she will have to audition--though that, it seems, has not been the case up to now.   The auditions will have to be in person or by recording (which is taking a chance. Scholars bicker on whether the chance is worth it. I think it is.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Johnny J
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:25 PM

Nothing wrong with doing things your way as such, Ebbie.

However, as I suggested earlier (And more tactfully than GSS), you get what you pay for(or don't)to a certain extent.

Yes, there is no reason why you shouldn't get some good quality performers from time to time. Good "up and coming" acts may wish to find a platform to make themselves better known while you'll also get good local performers or visiting musicians who are content just to enjoy the experience and will support your concept.

However, I don't think this can always be guaranteed and it's probably inevitable that you'll have to take the rough with the smooth from time to time.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 13 - 10:41 AM

Whatever.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:58 AM

Ebbie, you dont get it do you, I have no desire to play at your venue.
I think that organisers should have thought THE problem of poor
performers out BEFORE THEY STARTED RUNNING AN EVENT.
since you dont pay anybody what do you expect, if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
you charge 5 dollars on the door, you dont pay anybody, and you expect quality, I think you are barmy, it is a little bit like charging someone to come and plaster your house and then expecting a good job and then complaining because the plastering is poor, you want a good job you employ a skilled tradesman and you have to pay him well.
in my opinion
the only good thing about your system of organisation is that you let youngsters in free.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:32 AM

"I guess that makes Tom Paley a bad guitarist."
I saw Tom perform in London a couple of weeks ago and was once again staggered at how much respect and understanding he brings to the songs he sings - enough to spend the time getting them right at least.
Would that......!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:23 AM

a lot of guitarists aren't interested in guitar construction at all. if you have enough knowledge to get your guitar set up correctly. and a big enough budget change your guitar strings quite often its not really too much of a problem with modern electronic tuners being so affordable.

older guitarists are often resistant to technology and reckon you should have perfect pitch and be able to hear which guitar strings to tighten or loosen.

I personally think it can be tricky.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:22 AM

He does now, Richard, but I saw three different tunings for three consecutive songs and the 'tuning time' for that is considerable to the waiting audience. In all fairness that was many years ago and more recently I have seen Martin keep re-tunes to a minimum by various means. Thanks for reminding me he has changed though - You are quite right to point out that it is no longer an issue. Funny how first impressions stick with you though isn't it!

DtG


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:14 AM

Actually, I am repeatedly impressed by the speed and accuracy with which Martin Carthy goes from tuning to tuning.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:04 AM

"A bad guitarist will always take longer to tune"
I guess that makes Tom Paley a bad guitarist.

And Martin Carthy!

DtG


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:55 AM

"now that the best way to run a club is by benevolent dictatorship" I've heard that one before John but the post by the Guest slightly further down the thread who started off a post by stating "I don't much like Scottish songs" maybe shows the pitfalls there could be with one person holding too much sway :-)


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:35 PM

Thanks, Ron.

I need to clarify that

1. We do not have a folk club, even though the music is acoustic and we don't usually use a sound system because our acoustics are excellent. We present a wide variety of music- everything from pop to shape note singing to singer/songwriter stuff to traditional folk songs to old standards, and back again. I would most likely draw the line at rap; I don't care for it and most of our audience members would probably not either. In any case I get to make the decision.
2. We charge $5.00 at the door (a 3-hour/5 set event); youngsters free.
3. Nobody gets paid- that includes the performers. The only exceptions we have made was a few occasions when we snagged a performer who was passing through town and who used us as a teaser for a later concert they were putting on.
4. At intermission we serve cookies and coffee/tea. We put out a donations basket since it appears that people don't like to eat for free. But the goody donors don't get that money- it goes into the pot. We do comp anyone who brings goodies.
5. At the end of the season we decide where the excess money should go. For instance, this evening we're making a donation to the hall for their fundraiser. We will still have about a thousand dollars in the kitty; by the time we start the series again this fall that money will have been paid out.
6. I don't like numbered lists, Dick. Incidentally it is true that I don't actually know you but I am aware from your posting history that you are a thin-skinned performer who is probably a talented musician. I wouldn't dream of inviting you to perform in a venue such as mine. Thanks heavens.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:43 PM

Breedloveboy: "open tunings are easier to play"..
Maybe so, but you still have to learn to find your way around them. And I didn't mention open tunings....And they are not necessarily easier to get properrly tune, either.
John 'near enough for folk' Kelly


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:28 PM

"A bad guitarist will always take longer to tune"
I guess that makes Tom Paley a bad guitarist.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:00 PM

"personal slight".   Oh c'mon.   Ebbie was just trying to clarify the nature of her venue--which she did in a quite even-tempered way.

It's the poster who needs to cool off a bit, and not feel the need to reach for his sword to defend his sacred honor (honour?) quite so eagerly.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 19 May 13 - 07:13 PM

Maryrrf: Thank you for the comments. Glad you enjoyed the songs. The titles are under the sounclips, not above. I don't know where most people would expect them to be, but at least one other person that I know of has expected them to be above. I'll have to re-think that one. Actually, if you click on the title rather than the hairy caterpillar (whatever that thing is called) you'll get the right one. Ponchartrain is one that I've had some very nice commenbts about when I've sung it out. At one singaround, somebody got in first; borrowed a guitar, took out a crib sheet and launched into the song. Absolutely crucified it. Grrr.
John Kelly.


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Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:32 PM

Another thread hijack - I watched John Kelly's videos and I was deeply impressed. This is someone who knows and understands traditional music and how to let the focus be on the song. I do some booking for a concert series, and I would much rather see videos such as the ones John posted as opposed to something "produced". I have no doubt that, if I were to see John at a folk club (and if I ever have the chance, now that he is on my radar, I will not miss it) what I would get would be very close to what I saw on the video (only much better because it would be live).   John, I also listened to the sound samples on your website and enjoyed them very much, but I wanted to let you know that the titles on the selections don't correspond to what's actually there. For example, I clicked on "Lakes of Ponchartrain" and got a completely different song. Still lovely and I listened to them all, but what you click on is not what you get.

Ebbie, there's probably no good answer for your situation - it's never easy to tell someone they just aren't up to snuff! Tactful but diplomatic - easier said than done!


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