Poor Performers & What to do?

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Breedloveboy
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:08 PM

A bad guitarist will always take longer to tune, because his ear is not developed enough to identify whats wrong and be able to put it right quickly. If you want proof watch Tommy Emmanuel, he tunes whilst playing if he has to.

Come of it Harmonium Hero open tunings are easier to play.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:50 AM

Ebbie,.1. you do not know me. 2. you do not appear to be able to take a criticism of your posting this thread.
3.What make you think I want to play at your venue.
4.
I believe that organisers should have a clear idea how to deal diplomatically with performers,BEFORE they start running any kind of club or event,Ialso think it is the prerogative of organisers if they are financing the club to be able to choose who they want to allow to sing.
5.if you wish to take my remarks as a personal slight, that is your problem not mine

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:42 AM

Jack and I have both given up the struggle - don't want to spend any more of our remaining years struggling for recognition. We're both weak physically.

Best of luck John. Theres still great pleasure to be had playing music for yourself and friends.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:31 AM

Al: I thought I was the support act!
Keith: get yerself over to the White Lion in Swinton on 5th August!
Thanks Al and Keith for the supportive comments. It's those that keep me going.
Incidentally, Al is another who is getting ignored by the folk clubs. Writes witty songs, has a very nice guitar style, and a friendly way with an audience. I don't seem to hear Keith's name as much as he deserves either. Singer, multi-instrumentalist and witty entertainer. And of course there's Al's friend and mine, Jack Hudson. One of the Voices of the folk world, writes good songs, one of which I'm thinking about having a go at myself, and almost completely ignored, to the folk world's eternal shame. And there are others. But we just seem to hear the same couple of dozen names ad nauseam.
The point has been made more than once about tuning, and it's a complaint I hear quite frequently. Many folk guitarists, myself included, tend to use a variety of different tunings. For the non-guitarist, I would point out that this is not a cheat, to make things easier. On the contrary; you are effectively having to re-learn the instrument for each tuning. But different tunings give different possibilities and diierent effects. I try to keep the re-tuning to a minimum, by doing a couuple of songs in the same tuning in the first half, and re-tuning in the interval, or having a couple of songs in the same half with perhaps only one string having to be re-tuned. But then I've got the harmonium and other things, so I'm not using the guitar so much. Of course, if the guitar is your only instrument, it's a bit problematical; some guitarists get around this by lugging three guitars around. That's if they can afford three guitars - good guitars ain't cheap, you know! The other problem, which is the curse of the string player generally, is keeping the thing in tune. Sometimes one particular string may be problematical. But often the problem is changes of atmosphere or temperature. Just because you tuned up before you came on stage, it doesn't mean that the instrument will stay in tune while you're there. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the instrument is at fault. It has to be admitted, however, that some guitarists in particular overdo it; whether from nervousness, or it's a delaying tactic while they think what to sing next, or remember how the song starts, or it's just a pose...I dunno. In some cultures, of course, tuning is part of the performance. maybe we're too impatient in the West.
John Kelly

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:47 AM

I get really pissed off with people who thing that tuning is "near enough". If the guitar is out - TUNE IT!.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Breedloveboy
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:34 AM

My personal dislike are people who come onto a stage and immediately start tuning and retuning their guitars. There is no excuse for it, either a their guitar is no good, or they are not hearing correctly. Practice and Tune, in your own time!!

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,keith price
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:55 AM

Well said Big Al I'm with you, book him now while he's still got the van.
Hope to see you soon John.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:59 AM

John Kelly is a remarkable talent. One of the best singers of traditional song that I have ever heard in over forty years going to folk clubs. He's no slouch as a guitarist also and other instruments.

Its been my privilege to be his support act at Loughborough acoustic club.

I met him after seeing him as a floorspot at Mansfield folk Club. I wa immediately struck by the quality and originality of his work. You must understand that cheap cam excerpts on Yourtube in no way represent the talent of this guy. If you like traditional music, you will not be disappointed by John Kelly's work, should you book him for your club or festival.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 May 13 - 11:52 PM

Ebbie-
It's really a matter of to whom you feel responsible ---the peformer or the audience.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:42 AM

Traitor: Hope it proves helpful. Perhaps you could post the outcome here, as I'm sure quite a few people would be interested. It's always a delicate and worrying position to be in, when somebody needs to be made aware of something which might potentially offend or upset them.

DTM: Wholheartedly agree. I don't much care for singarounds. I'm all in favour of people being allowed to have their chance to get up and sing, but I think the old way of getting up in front of the audience and doing a couple of songs was better. Singarounds seem to be encouraging mediocrity and incompetence, and there seems to be an attitude that someone having the right to have a go is more important than doing the songs any sort of justice, or that what the singer is getting out of the exercise is more important than what the audience is getting. I am of opinion that crib-sheets should be banned - as they have been in some clubs. They simply encourage people not to bother trying to learn the songs. Much better that they make the extra effort to learn songs properly, and then do their floor spot when they have a couple of songs ready to sing to the audience, rather than burying themselves behind a crib-sheet and just going through the motions, This may mean that they won't sing every week, but the audience would get more satisfaction from it , and so - surely - would the singer; is that such a bad thing?
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:41 PM

Spot artists should have a reasonable level of competence - that's a no brainer. IMO, sing-a-round sessions should be open to all levels however, having said that, the singer/player should have at least learned the song/tune to some degree before airing their rendition. I cringe at the efforts of some individuals who are consistantly unrehearsed.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Traitor
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:16 PM

Thanks for the reply HH. You divine correctly that we have a committee run club. Your suggestion is a good one. I shall have to.work out a gentle way to avoid a repeat. They are all good friends so I will make sure of a good outcome. As you are aware, a reputation takes time and effort to build but can be destroyed very quickly.
Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 13 - 07:44 PM

Oh, well.. if Ebbie doesn't mind; it's helping to keep the thread going, anyway.
Anonymous guest: the somgs were recorded on a camera, and the sound is not the best quality. I don't have the money to het a professional video done. If organisers are going to judge my performance on the quality of the recording, they might just as well say they didn't like the colour of my shirt. I'm not trying to sell the videos; they are just to give people a taste of what I do. As regards concentrating on festivals, I'd rather sing in clubs. Festival bookinngs can be very unsatisfactory, and, frankly, a pain in the arse. And they are not interested in people like me anyway.
Hi Mike. Glad you liked the songs. There'll be more soon.
Matt: I can take your point about 'people's tolerance for the kind of overproduced, glossy CD....' etc. It's probably true to some extent. The triumph of style over content (which is peretty much what showbiz is all about; folk music should be more honest - it used to be the antidote to showbiz, but not any more). But I have heard adverse comments about this sort of thing from some organisers, and one lady in Scotlamd said that what I was doing was right; that she had booked a duo on the strength of a great-sounding CD, and was disappointed with the reality - they didn't sound the same on stage.
And you may have a different experience in London. I haven't been much within the M25 yet - I've done floor spots at five clubs around the peripheries, and have been booked twice at Orpington (Change of Horses). But I have found it easier to get dates in the south east generally, than in other areas. Pity it's 200 miles away! I get no support from my local clubs. There are half a dozen clubs around the north west where I get booked over and over, but the ones nearest home just ignore me. It's a closed shop.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: matt milton
Date: 17 May 13 - 04:25 PM

sorry, I'm going to perpetuate the 'hijack' for a bit...

John said:
" I think you said, on another thread a few months ago (my appologies if this wasn't you) in response to somebody looking for advice on getting dates, that it has never been easier to get bookings - you listed all the ways of publicising yourself. I would take issue; it's true that there have never been so many ways to publicise yourself, many of which are free, or inexpensive, but getting dates is another matter. I've been singing in the clubs for 45 years, all but a few years gap, and I'd say it's never been harder."

...yes, sounds like me. And I still think it's easy to get gigs, thanks to social networking and the internet, but that might be because perhaps we're spoilt, to an extent, in London. There are a LOT of places to play here and I've never had a problem getting gigs, even though I'm nobody, with very few recordings to show for myself.

I admit, it must be very difficult if you don't even have a computer. And I agree with you, that, in principle, it SHOULD be, in an ideal world, the case that one could just, in an egalitarian way, turn up and do a floor spot, blow everyone away by one's brilliance and be offered back for a headline gig, or a too-notch support slot to Martin Carthy or something.

But, personally, I think you're underestimating people's tolerance for the kind of overproduced, glossy CD, big-package presentation. I think it carries a lot of weight. I've seen a lot of the current, younger folk scene's brightest and best being roundly ignored at folk clubs and singer-songwriter nights over the last 10 years ... until, that is, they got record deals, album reviews ... success breeds success and people tend to hear with their preconceptions, and enjoy things they have been primed to enjoy.

I mean, there's a singer at my local folk club who really struggles with pitch, wandering all over the place, but who everyone else thinks is a-mazing, largely I suspect because she's easy on the eye and her general singing voice is pleasant in that "pretty young girl who sings folk" kind of way. Somehow I don't think she'd be tolerated at all there if she was a podgy, bald, 60something. One strange side-effect of the digital age is that people want to believe their eyes.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Elmore
Date: 17 May 13 - 04:12 PM

Never had this problem. We were one of the few venues to book "traditional" performers,so we had a superabundance of excellent artists and a shortage of dates on which to present them. So, forty years later our performers are aging, and our members are dying.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:43 PM

Gee, my computer can't spell "performers". I'm sure it's not the fault of the writer.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 May 13 - 02:54 PM

I don't mind thread hijacking! It's been interesting.

"...the organiser cannot decide what to do for herself then in my opinion she should not be running a folk club." You may note that we don't have a, strictly speaking, folk club. This is a small venue to introduce performers to audiences and to showcase known crowd pleasers.

Ya know, Dick M, I doubt I would go listen to you. I like my performers to be people I care to know.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:36 AM

Just to add to the thread hijack, John - loved your videos on Vimeo. The GUEST here who turned one off after 10 seconds was, in my view, mistaken.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:26 AM

Ebbie: Sorry - I seem to be hijacking your thread, which isn't being very helpful, and wasn't my intention. I'm going to go away and saw some wood.
JK

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:18 AM

if the organiser cannot decide what to do for herself then in my opinion she should not be running a folk club.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:15 AM

Hi Dave. So, you thought you'd escape me by moving to Skipton? Ha! You can't even escape my dancing, as I'll be there with Seven Stars, for 'Clogfest' in July. As regards dancing in clubs, I used to do it in the '70s, with The Wakes, and have done it an odd time recently, by request of the organiser; as it happened, one of the regulars was able to accompany me. Are you doing Abram this year? Hope to see you at one or other event, anyway.

Matt: Thanks for looking at the new site. The old one wasn't actually mine; it was some spare space Al Whittle had, and he set it up - I had no cotrol. As regards all those internet sites, Iit's not the way for me. My computer skills don't go much beyond swearing at the bloody thing. I haven't even got a computer of my own - can't afford one, and wouldn'e be able to set anything up on it. But even if I did, it would do no good. I'll guarantee that a goodly number of club organisers don't spend a lot of time scouring these websites looking for guests. It's a buyers' market. Too many of us chasing too few bookings. And some organisers have their own fixed ideas about who to book. Others don't trust CDs and publicity handouts. I wouldn't, if I were running a club. As has been suggested on this thread, it's too easy to make a recording, and there's too much scope for sexing up recordings. Same with publicity. I could, as easily as anybody else, send out glossy, professional photographs (which tell you nothing about what I sound like), and a blurb telling you that I am one of the UK's most accomplished singers, a stunning intrumentalist and acclaimed song arranger, blah, blah, blah. Once people have been had by this sort of bilge, and the accompnying slick, over-produced CD (featuring various famous musicians, to make the mediocre singer sound good) they no longer give any credence to such things. If I turn up, by arrangement, at their club, and get up in front of their audience and perform, they know exactly what they would be getting, and can see how their audience reacts to it. I know that many people think I'm crackers, but I believe this is the way to do things. But I've been to clubs where the organiser is simply NOT INTERESTED - have been very off-hand, and simply treated me as any other floor singer, although I've emailed or phoned in advance and explained who I am and that I am Looking for dates. And I've spoken to other singers who have had the same experience with the same organisers. All the internet presence in the world isn't going to impinge on their consciousness. I've also gone down the road of sending out demo CDs to festivals: nothing - zippo - zilch. Some of them didn't even respond to my request for an address to send the demo. I think you said, on another thread a few months ago (my appologies if this wasn't you) in response to somebody looking for advice on getting dates, that it has never been easier to get bookings - you listed all the ways of publicising yourself. I would take issue; it's true that there have never been so many ways to publicise yourself, many of which are free, or inexpensive, but getting dates is another matter. I've been singing in the clubs for 45 years, all but a few years gap, and I'd say it's never been harder. Of course, as evidenced by the experiences recounted on this thread, there will always be those who manage to blag their way in. And while it's difficult to know what's the best way to guard against it, they do tend to have short careers.

Sorry- wittering again. John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:55 AM

I generally dont care much for Scottish songs having found dialect a major hurdle to my listening ears as they try to follow the lyric
I stayed with that one because I appreciated the cittern playing and you sing in tune and in time.
the melody was soothing.
But
its nice to go travelling and I wish you all the best,
we must never lose the joy we get from singing for singing's sake.
Focus and target festival organisers as opposed to clubs.
redo the one with harmonium and play it quietly so it is under you voice.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:42 AM

dear Harmonium man

i just auditioned you for my club


i clicked on to your canadee i o and was moved to turn it off after 10 seconds

the harmonium drowned your vocal and i could not recognise the song.

i admit to having heard Nic Jones and a woman from a folk club sing it unaccompanied once . i would listen again to them .

Your immediate and the first impression you convey will count heavily for or against you.

Some folk clubs are genuine and they will engage you. you appear a to be an intriguing character , but most i fear will not.

I organise to promote the genre but also to entertain there bums-in-seats is important

where a club has a staunch and loyal following its philosophy will probably be at odds with mine

I shall now give your other song a listen

All the best

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:11 AM

This thread suggests to me that people in the US are having some of the same problems that we are in UK, although I think the US folk scene is organised a bit differently. There do seem to be a lot of singers about who think they have some divine democratic right to get up and sing. Up to a point, I'd say that, in folk clubs, they do. However, this has to be tempered by the right of paying punters to get what they think they are paying for. If it's a singaround/song circle, then everybody gets a go, but these are usually free, or minimal entry fee, and people know what to expect. The concert platform, with named performers getting an extended spot, and punters paying to get in, is an entirely different thing. The folk club lies somewhere in between. There were always general principles on which folk clubs ran, but no actual rules, so there was always scope for variation and experiment. I think this generally worked satisfactorily, but when people like me have suggested, in previous Mudcat threads, that this was the way to do things, we've been told "no, we can't go back to the old ways". (Is there only me that sees the irony in this?) Some clubs didn't have floor spots on guest nights, and the atmosphere tended to be more formal. I preferred the clubs where there were at least some floor spots on guest nights, and the atmosphere was more relaxed. (It isn't as if you were paying a fortune to get in in those days). I remember once, in the '70s, after the floor spots, the guest (I'm pretty sure it was Nic Jones; my apologies to him if it wasn't) on getting up for his second spot said "the floor spots are always my favourite part of a folk club; you never know whether your singer is going to be brilliant or bloody awful". I agree. I love the element of unpredictability. I also agree with several posters here, that a 20 minute spot, if the performer is not right, can be dire.
I'm waffling again.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Johnny J
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:42 AM

Well, if you are booking an act for only twenty minutes and possibly others on the same evening, I'd imagine that you wouldn't want to spend too much money on each one. Unless it's a very lucrative club, of course, but even then if you are paying out a decent sum you would surely want your money's worth in terms of performance time?

So, to a certain extent, you get what you pay for in these situations.

That's not to say all the acts will be bad nor should they be. It's possible that some will be very good "up and coming" musicians who are happy enough to do a short spot to help promote themselves.
You may also get good local experienced musicians who are happy enough to do a shorter set for the appropriate remuneration because the may be at a "loose end" and they may also be "friends" and supporters of the folk club scene.
On the other hand, there will also be those acts who are still "honing" their craft, "past their best", or just not up to it.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:16 AM

It seems clear that "warm up" is not the situation for Ebbie.   She appears to be talking about perfomers who themselves are to be the "main act", but are disappointing.

Perhaps it's the difference between the US and UK approaches to folk clubs. I'm aware that in the UK you can have warm-up acts.   In the US we often do not.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Johnny J
Date: 17 May 13 - 06:08 AM

There has been a bit of divergence in this thread and floor singers/spots have featured heavily in the discussion.

Yes, the OP is referring to "booked acts" but he or she also states

"Mind you, these are just 20 minute sets, which means that anyone can sit through practically any one of them."

I realise that all clubs are organised differently but, in certain quarters, a 15-20 minute set could also be an extended floor spot.

Certainly, if the artists have been advertised to play at the venue and the punters have bought tickets on the strength of this then the organiser has an extra responsibility to the audience.

However, if the 15-20 minutes set is just a "warm up" for the main act who may be doing something like two 45 minute sets, then this may be seen as less crucial. Of course, as I said earlier, it's not necessarily fair on the audience who have come to see somebody else but once their chosen act gets on the stage most of them will "forget the pain" and generally enjoy the night as a whole unless the support or floor singers have been really bad.

Many clubs may have a succession of floor singers/performers for 20 mins or even longer rather than a "warm up" act before the main guest arrives. At least, this offers some opportunity for variety even if the next singer isn't necessarily any improvement on the previous one!
:-)

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 17 May 13 - 05:39 AM

I have had over 35 years of being a paid performer and have also run folk clubs, I really do not like the tone of this thread at all.
in my experience a well run club can cope with one poor floor singer in an evening, this is where the resident or resident group has to come in and bring the evening up.
While I agree with that comment about floor singers the OP was talking about booked acts doing longer sets.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: johncharles
Date: 17 May 13 - 05:15 AM

Dear Bill D. I heard someone sing the song years ago. i got the words and fitted the half remembered tune to it. Later I heard the original version by Red River dave but decided to stick with the way I was already performing it. It is not commonly sung in the UK as far as I can tell therfore the expectation of a particular tune may not be so great.
I was singing it in a pub recently and a man form the performing rights society was there taking notes. When he asked who performed it I told him it was Red River Dave the yodelling cowboy; I think he thought I was pulling his leg by the look he gave me. john

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:21 AM

John - Swinton in August, Skipton in October

As an ex-Swintonian and a new Skiptonian (is that right?) that is good news for me. Hopefully see you at at least one of them and hoping you get the breaks you deserve. Shame we don't still have the music halls - you could make up the difference clog dancing :-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: matt milton
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:43 AM

@John Kelly: I only just looked at your new website. It's definitely a step in the right direction, much better looking than the slightly apologetic website you had before. But getting a website is only half the game - as you say, people don't come to it by accident. You have to tell them about it. Publicise it (and yourself) a lot.

Make sure you're on Bandcamp too. Send CDs to all the folk radio outlets in the UK and internationally (you can research this on Facebook and Google - maybe it's about time for another Mudcat thread on this...) Send press packs with CD and bio to folk clubs and festivals and magazines. Think laterally: if no-one wants to interview you, interview yourself (hey, it worked for Glenn Gould); if no-one plays you on the radio, start your own podcast... Start videoing yourself on YouTube etc.

Doing all that stuff is more likely to get you gigs these days than driving to folk clubs and doing a floor spot.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:59 PM

Traitor: that's a difficult one. It sounds as though you've got a committee-run club. There are problems with this. It has been suggested on Mudcat before now that the best way to run a club is by benevolent dictatorship - I think that was the expression - and I'm inclined to agree. In the old days - the bad old days, as some would insist - most clubs were run by a resident singer or group, and the club stood or fell by their efforts. If people liked the residents, then there would be a regular audience. If they didn't, there wouldn't be. It's natural selection. What to do in a case like yours, I'm not sure. Is there any way that they could be made aware of adverse comments from the audience, without making it sound as if it's coming from other organisers?
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Traitor
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:55 PM

I help run a club. Several of the leading organisers think they are good performers. Their last performance as support to a good performer was dire. Had they not been valued volunteers, we would never let them play again.
Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:22 PM

Ron Davies: Thank you for those comments. It seems that what you - and others, judging by other comments I've had - are picking up is just what I intend: that it's not about the singer - it's about the song. In the popular music field, it's the other way around - it's about the singer. It seems to me that too many people here - in the UK - are trying to drag folk music into showbiz. It's not where it belongs. There seems to be too much emphasis on personalities, awards, and 'entertainment'. I always thought, in my naivety, that people went to folk clubs to be entertained by folk music. Silly me!
Thanks again. I just hope that some organisers here pick up on this - not just for my sake; as I said earlier, there are quite a fewof us banging our heads against the same brick wall.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:01 PM

John Kelly--

Wow.   That's stunning, especially "As I Was A-Wandering"    Wonderful creation of atmosphere, talent to spare, and respectful serving of the music, rather than the perfomer insisting "Look at me."   The cittern is enchanting.    Wish you could make it to the US.

Your approach is the opposite of what we are criticizing---our problem is people of marginal talent who feel that their adolescent-style angst should be adored by the rest of the world.

Would there were more like you, and fewer navel-gazers. It ain't so--more's the pity.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 13 - 05:00 PM

(side question for john charles... how did you all get that tune for Amelia Earhart? It is quite a ways from what Red River Dave wrote. It is well-performed and would be fine....except for those who are expecting the original)

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: johncharles
Date: 16 May 13 - 02:50 PM

The type of night, audience expectations,aims of the performer, combined with subjective views on what is "poor" make this a tricky area.
My personal view
1. club nights where there is no or little charge and people usually do two/three songs "poor" performances make little difference.
2. guest nights where there is a more significant charge then care needs to be taken to ensure any support spots are of a "reasonable" standard, the occasional poor performance will probably be excused if it is relatively short.
3. major concert - get it right both in terms of style and skill of any supports as the audience is usually more varied and has paid good money to be entertained.
Booking anyone is subjective. Professionals usually have recordings,videos reviews etc which can help, others who are semi-professional or amateur can be more of a problem.
I play in a trio, we see this as a hobby and are not chasing money we get club and festival spots usually from people who have seen us play. we take the view that with us what you see is what you get we have a few live recordings which together with actually seeing someone are the best way to decide wether you want to book an act.
amelia earhart's last flight
i guess for many of us,particularly in the folk world where many of the audience are also performers, the judgement of "poor" versus "worth a short spot"versus "worth booking for a full concert", is derived from how we view our own performance standards, and any particular type of music we favour.
Anyone who really wants to sing/play will be able to find a niche it may not meet their aspirations but hey its music.Enjoy.
John

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:51 PM

Bainbo: thanks for that - it works here anyway. I can never get the clicky thing to work, and my son & daughter, who do know how to do it, aren't here.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Bainbo
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:30 PM

Does this link for the Harmonium Hero website work?

Failing that, here are a couple of the videos:
As I Was a-Wandering
Canadee-i-o

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:15 PM

Ebbie: I keep getting that 'harmonica hero' stuff when I try to get on my website, but it usually comes up with the website once I've typed in the whole name. maybe your search engine is putting it further down the list. There is one song (unaccompnied) on Youtube. It was recorded in a folk club for entry to an unaccompanied singing contest. It's "When a Man's in Love". The title, plus my name and 'trad2mad 2012' should find it. I don't get over to the US, but thanks for the interest. Now, if only some of the organisers here would do the same......

John Kelly (ducking for cover)

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 13 - 01:00 PM

I have had over 35 years of being a paid performer and have also run folk clubs, I really do not like the tone of this thread at all.
in my experience a well run club can cope with one poor floor singer in an evening, this is where the resident or resident group has to come in and bring the evening up.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: John P
Date: 16 May 13 - 11:23 AM

You could have occasional open mic nights where new acts audition for a concert slot. Audiences know what to expect from an open mic. My opinion is that if you are charging people to come and watch a performance, you have a duty to put on competent performers. People who do the booking for venues have to learn to say no.

Ebbie, I don't know if this is true, but your situation may be complicated by the possibility that you are the only place in town to hear or to perform folk music. This may impose a heavier than usual requirement that you engage in artist development -- if there's only one place to play and the booker says no, there's not much option for a beginning performer. As has been suggested, events that are participatory in nature are a good place for people to play music if they aren't ready for more formal performing. I have watched (and encouraged) musicians who regularly attend song circles and open mics go from being pretty bad to being very good. That said, there are also musicians who will never achieve the minimum competence required to perform, and song circles are a great place for them to play and sing in an appropriate setting.

I usually don't tell people what I think of their performance unless they ask me, I think they can hear blunt honesty without damage, and I see the possibility of them actually getting better (I always complement where possible and criticize with a great deal of respect). I am in strong disagreement with the habit that so many folkies seem to have of praising everyone, no matter how bad they are. People who aren't ready to get on stage shouldn't get on stage, and gaining a clear idea of their own level of competence is the only way they are going to get any better, or to figure out that they should stop inflicting themselves on others. Unfortunately, people who can't work that out for themselves before they get on a stage probably won't ever work it out. A well-developed self-critical facility is essential to being a good musician. And the person doing the booking for a venue has to learn to say no.

Praising unpracticed or incompetent musicians and/or giving them a stage is also somewhat insulting to the musicians who have spent the time and dedication acquiring real skills. We really aren't all the same, and artistic achievement isn't a democracy.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 13 - 11:11 AM

John Kelly, is there someplace online in the US where I can hear you? I tried 'harmoniumhero.com' and it is all about harmonicas. :)

Are you on YouTube? I didn't find you there.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 16 May 13 - 11:01 AM

While I can sympathise with the OP, and, as Dave says, this discussion has come up before - seemingly to no avail, there is another side to the problem for performers like me. Some of you know me, and have seen me, either as a booked guest, or doing promotional floor spots. Almost all of my bookings are the result of promo spots. I have done these spots up and down the UK, from Aberdeen to the south coast. So far, about two thirds of the clubs have not been interested. The traveling has cost me more than I have had back in earnings, and I can no longer afford the cost of diesel and insurance. I currently have three dates lined up: Swinton in August, Skipton in October, and Frodsham in May 2014....that's if I'm still on the road. As things stand, it's likely that I won't be able to afford to renew my van insurance next February. Ten or a dozen dates would fix that, but most of the clubs which might be interested are booked further ahead. I have offers of two dates in the south east, but can't afford to do them except as part of a tour. Before some helpful person informs me that the folk scene (hate that term - can we find another?) doesn't owe me a living, I would like to point out that I know; it doesn't owe any of us a living, for that matter, but that is not what this post is about.
I don't imagine myself to be the best singer or performer in the business; I think I have a pretty fair idea of my abilities and shortcomings. I have always been a nervous performer, and lacking in confidence. I am probably my own biggest critic, but I know from past experience, that I would get over the nervousness if I were out performing regularly. What keeps me going is that, from the comments I have had, both in person and on this forum and elsewhere, and from the fact that the clubs that have booked me usually do so again - Swinton, for instance is a fourth date (plus a couple of times at their mini-weekend), Skipton a third date, and Frodsham about the tenth - I believe that I have something to offer that is appreciated by a lot of people. (Please bear with me - this is not a trumpet-blowing excercise). And, as I said, these dates are almost exclusively from turning up, at considerable expense, and performing to their audience. What more can people like me do? Everybody told me I should get a website. I have - harmoniumhero.com if anybody's interested. On it you can hear short clips from about half of the songs on my CDs, and there are now four videos, with more to follow. This has so far got me no bookings. I don't think people visit websites by accident. They have usually heard/of the performer before. I still think that turning up and singing ought to be the way to do things.
So where does this leave me? I was driven out of the game once before for a few years, from disillusionment and frustration, but wasn't happy not singing, and returned to the fray, determined not to be driven out again. But it's happening. I'm not alone in this. There are plenty of people in the same position - frustrated, ignored and bitter.
Sorry this has been so long-winded, and it's not all about me (see previous sentence).

John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:44 AM

This is an interesting conversation and I hope it continues.

However, just to be clear, our series is not 'open mike'. We book five sets for the evening- three before goodies intermission and two after.

We try to place performers strategically for the optimum, i.e. the new/weakest one is usually #2 in the lineup, and the known crowd pleaser usually goes last, in order to hold the crowd. Generally speaking, it works.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: breezy
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:40 AM

let the audience decide, each one has 2 cards. one with a tick ,the other with a cross alternatively one card with a yes ok the other with 'rubbish no more'
have the audience decide and involved then they will have more fun


Audition prior to the concert

never trust word of mouth

Have some standards or else have some kind of fun

This has given me an idea

All the best

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:31 AM

As Jack says, we at EFC have had a few disasters but not many. Perhaps, an average of one a year. That's aside from occasions when some acts are a little disappointing or don't always perform at their best but we can't always anticipate when they might have an "off night".
The majority, however, are usually good at what they do even if they don't appeal to everyone's tastes(We cover a wide spectrum).

Unless we already know or have heard the act, we obviously listen to CDs, You Tube clips, and so on as well as take advice from other clubs and concert organisers. However, as Jack observes, this isn't always a true guide.
The best way to judge is by first hand experience but, even then, an act you may have enjoyed elsewhere might let you down or not make a successful transition into your own venue.

As regards Guest Matt's comments, it would be impractical and unfair to check out floor singers and those who offered to do very short spots (A longer support spot, fair enough) in this way. After all, everybody has to start somewhere.
Besides, the facilities to record yourself are relatively recent, In the past, people used to perform live, sometimes for several years, before they would ever dream of recording or be given the opprtunity.
Nowadays, it seems to be the other way around.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:51 AM

...or even their bit - just to please the pedants :-)

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:51 AM

What treewind said! Unfortunately this topic has been done before and I got right going over by some members when I said I would not have poor or unknown floor singers on a guest night when there is a paying audience there to see the paid guest. They are more than welcome on a singers nights which is free for all attending whether performing or not. Seems a pretty fair way of determining who gets a support spot when the audience pays and it is still fair to poor performers who enjoy doing there bit.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: treewind
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:11 AM

"If somebody is completely new to you, let them do one number as a tryout before granting a 20 minute act."

This is standard floor singer policy in some UK folk clubs. Or typically "one song please, and if there's time in the second half you'll get another". Whether there's time for another is, of course, a quality control decision but it doesn't have to be presented as such...