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BS: Unarmed soldier killed, (London-May 2013)

GUEST,Alan 22 May 13 - 01:53 PM
kendall 22 May 13 - 02:35 PM
Dave Hanson 22 May 13 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,CS 22 May 13 - 03:04 PM
jacqui.c 22 May 13 - 03:47 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 May 13 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Alan 22 May 13 - 04:46 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,Alan 22 May 13 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Eliza 22 May 13 - 05:22 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 05:42 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 05:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 May 13 - 05:54 PM
akenaton 22 May 13 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,Eliza 22 May 13 - 05:59 PM
akenaton 22 May 13 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Alan 22 May 13 - 06:27 PM
Greg F. 22 May 13 - 06:45 PM
Ebbie 22 May 13 - 07:00 PM
bobad 22 May 13 - 07:05 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 07:17 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 07:35 PM
Ron Davies 22 May 13 - 08:22 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 09:00 PM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 23 May 13 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 23 May 13 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 06:24 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 06:33 AM
Barb'ry 23 May 13 - 07:00 AM
Barb'ry 23 May 13 - 07:06 AM
Greg F. 23 May 13 - 08:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 08:38 AM
akenaton 23 May 13 - 08:44 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 09:19 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 09:26 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 09:33 AM
akenaton 23 May 13 - 09:43 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 09:44 AM
Greg F. 23 May 13 - 09:46 AM
Greg F. 23 May 13 - 09:58 AM
akenaton 23 May 13 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 23 May 13 - 10:43 AM
Richard Bridge 23 May 13 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,CS 23 May 13 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 11:02 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 11:39 AM
akenaton 23 May 13 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 23 May 13 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 23 May 13 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 May 13 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 01:11 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Eliza 23 May 13 - 02:38 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 23 May 13 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,Lavengro 23 May 13 - 03:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 May 13 - 03:52 PM
Les in Chorlton 23 May 13 - 04:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 04:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 04:35 PM
Richard Bridge 23 May 13 - 05:14 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 05:51 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 May 13 - 06:05 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 May 13 - 06:10 PM
GUEST,Eliza 23 May 13 - 06:10 PM
bobad 23 May 13 - 06:13 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 May 13 - 06:26 PM
The Sandman 23 May 13 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,Eliza 23 May 13 - 06:35 PM
bobad 23 May 13 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 07:20 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 08:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 13 - 02:46 AM
akenaton 24 May 13 - 03:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 13 - 03:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 13 - 04:05 AM
akenaton 24 May 13 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,musket without sans 24 May 13 - 04:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 13 - 04:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 13 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Alan 24 May 13 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 13 - 05:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 May 13 - 05:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 13 - 05:28 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 May 13 - 06:06 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 May 13 - 06:43 AM
Stu 24 May 13 - 06:58 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 May 13 - 07:08 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 May 13 - 07:13 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 May 13 - 07:22 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 13 - 07:23 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 May 13 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,Alan 24 May 13 - 07:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 13 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Alan 24 May 13 - 07:58 AM
selby 24 May 13 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 24 May 13 - 08:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 13 - 08:52 AM
Stu 24 May 13 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 24 May 13 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Lavengro 24 May 13 - 10:12 AM
Richard Bridge 24 May 13 - 10:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 13 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,CS 24 May 13 - 11:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 13 - 11:05 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 May 13 - 11:21 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 May 13 - 12:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 13 - 12:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 13 - 12:56 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 May 13 - 01:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 13 - 06:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 13 - 06:52 PM
Richard Bridge 24 May 13 - 07:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 13 - 07:50 PM
Songwronger 24 May 13 - 08:11 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 May 13 - 08:55 PM
GUEST 24 May 13 - 10:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 03:40 AM
Richard Bridge 25 May 13 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie) 25 May 13 - 04:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 05:01 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 13 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 06:15 AM
bobad 25 May 13 - 06:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 06:53 AM
MGM·Lion 25 May 13 - 07:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 May 13 - 07:31 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 May 13 - 07:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 07:51 AM
Greg F. 25 May 13 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 13 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 13 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 08:51 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 25 May 13 - 08:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 09:06 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 25 May 13 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 13 - 11:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 May 13 - 12:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 12:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 12:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 May 13 - 12:22 PM
Jim Carroll 25 May 13 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 25 May 13 - 01:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 01:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 May 13 - 01:29 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 May 13 - 01:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 May 13 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Guest balance 25 May 13 - 02:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 02:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 13 - 04:19 PM
mayomick 25 May 13 - 04:53 PM
MGM·Lion 25 May 13 - 05:25 PM
mayomick 25 May 13 - 06:03 PM
bobad 25 May 13 - 06:53 PM
Greg F. 25 May 13 - 08:14 PM
LadyJean 25 May 13 - 10:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 13 - 04:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 May 13 - 05:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 May 13 - 05:33 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 May 13 - 05:44 AM
MGM·Lion 26 May 13 - 05:58 AM
mayomick 26 May 13 - 06:09 AM
MGM·Lion 26 May 13 - 08:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 13 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 13 - 09:28 AM
Greg F. 26 May 13 - 09:47 AM
mayomick 26 May 13 - 10:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 13 - 10:48 AM
Greg F. 26 May 13 - 11:40 AM
MGM·Lion 26 May 13 - 12:37 PM
mayomick 26 May 13 - 01:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 13 - 01:33 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 May 13 - 01:46 PM
MGM·Lion 26 May 13 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Eliza 26 May 13 - 02:53 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 May 13 - 03:29 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 May 13 - 03:55 PM
Greg F. 26 May 13 - 04:21 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 May 13 - 04:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 13 - 04:31 PM
bobad 26 May 13 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,CS 26 May 13 - 05:21 PM
Greg F. 26 May 13 - 06:03 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 26 May 13 - 06:03 PM
bobad 26 May 13 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Eliza 26 May 13 - 06:42 PM
bobad 26 May 13 - 07:21 PM
bobad 26 May 13 - 07:40 PM
Greg F. 26 May 13 - 08:18 PM
bobad 26 May 13 - 08:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 May 13 - 03:04 AM
Richard Bridge 27 May 13 - 03:32 AM
GUEST,Eliza 27 May 13 - 06:14 AM
Greg F. 27 May 13 - 09:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 13 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 27 May 13 - 01:05 PM
GUEST 27 May 13 - 01:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 13 - 03:05 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 27 May 13 - 03:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 13 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,Eliza 27 May 13 - 03:57 PM
Richard Bridge 27 May 13 - 03:59 PM
Richard Bridge 27 May 13 - 04:01 PM
Greg F. 27 May 13 - 04:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 13 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Eliza 27 May 13 - 05:30 PM
Greg F. 27 May 13 - 07:05 PM
Richard Bridge 27 May 13 - 09:14 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 01:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 13 - 02:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 13 - 03:36 AM
Richard Bridge 28 May 13 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 13 - 03:48 AM
Richard Bridge 28 May 13 - 03:52 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 03:56 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 13 - 04:07 AM
mayomick 28 May 13 - 04:59 AM
Richard Bridge 28 May 13 - 05:17 AM
Richard Bridge 28 May 13 - 05:23 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 13 - 05:53 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 06:05 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 13 - 06:09 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Eliza 28 May 13 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 13 - 06:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 13 - 06:36 AM
mayomick 28 May 13 - 07:14 AM
Richard Bridge 28 May 13 - 07:34 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 07:43 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 07:44 AM
mayomick 28 May 13 - 07:53 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 07:57 AM
GUEST,Musket sans body 28 May 13 - 08:06 AM
Stu 28 May 13 - 08:32 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 13 - 08:45 AM
Stu 28 May 13 - 09:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 13 - 09:28 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 09:42 AM
Stu 28 May 13 - 09:53 AM
mayomick 28 May 13 - 10:21 AM
Stu 28 May 13 - 10:33 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 13 - 11:09 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 13 - 11:11 AM
bobad 28 May 13 - 11:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 13 - 11:23 AM
Stu 28 May 13 - 11:25 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 11:31 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 May 13 - 11:44 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 11:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 May 13 - 11:59 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 12:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 May 13 - 12:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 May 13 - 12:32 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 12:35 PM
selby 28 May 13 - 12:39 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 May 13 - 12:46 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 12:49 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 12:51 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 01:13 PM
bobad 28 May 13 - 03:41 PM
Richard Bridge 28 May 13 - 05:20 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 13 - 05:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 May 13 - 06:52 PM
Richard Bridge 28 May 13 - 10:38 PM
MGM·Lion 29 May 13 - 12:55 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 13 - 01:08 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 13 - 01:11 AM
GUEST,jeff 29 May 13 - 02:41 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 13 - 02:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 13 - 04:26 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 13 - 05:15 AM
bobad 29 May 13 - 06:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 13 - 06:40 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 08:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 May 13 - 09:09 AM
bobad 29 May 13 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 13 - 09:38 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 10:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 13 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 11:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 May 13 - 11:03 AM
bobad 29 May 13 - 11:12 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 11:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 13 - 12:15 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 12:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 May 13 - 12:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 13 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Eliza 29 May 13 - 01:58 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 02:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 13 - 04:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 May 13 - 05:03 PM
MGM·Lion 29 May 13 - 05:06 PM
MGM·Lion 29 May 13 - 05:13 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 13 - 05:18 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 May 13 - 05:39 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 May 13 - 05:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 13 - 05:53 PM
GUEST 29 May 13 - 06:15 PM
Greg F. 29 May 13 - 06:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 May 13 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,Lisa 29 May 13 - 06:40 PM
bobad 29 May 13 - 06:42 PM
Richard Bridge 29 May 13 - 07:13 PM
MGM·Lion 29 May 13 - 11:47 PM
MGM·Lion 29 May 13 - 11:53 PM
GUEST,Forlorn Lass 30 May 13 - 12:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 13 - 03:02 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 13 - 03:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 13 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 05:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 13 - 05:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 05:59 AM
Stu 30 May 13 - 06:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 13 - 06:50 AM
Richard Bridge 30 May 13 - 07:46 AM
MGM·Lion 30 May 13 - 08:16 AM
MGM·Lion 30 May 13 - 08:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 08:42 AM
bobad 30 May 13 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Cossack 30 May 13 - 10:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 13 - 10:29 AM
Greg F. 30 May 13 - 10:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 10:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 13 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 13 - 11:06 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 May 13 - 11:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 May 13 - 11:33 AM
Greg F. 30 May 13 - 11:38 AM
bobad 30 May 13 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 13 - 12:15 PM
bobad 30 May 13 - 12:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 13 - 01:01 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 13 - 01:27 PM
MGM·Lion 30 May 13 - 02:11 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 13 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 30 May 13 - 03:27 PM
The Sandman 30 May 13 - 03:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 04:14 PM
bobad 30 May 13 - 04:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 13 - 04:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 04:29 PM
MGM·Lion 30 May 13 - 06:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 06:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 13 - 06:34 PM
bobad 30 May 13 - 06:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 13 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 03:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 13 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 04:07 AM
MGM·Lion 31 May 13 - 04:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 May 13 - 04:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 May 13 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 13 - 05:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 13 - 05:30 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 May 13 - 05:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 May 13 - 05:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 May 13 - 05:55 AM
bobad 31 May 13 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 31 May 13 - 06:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 13 - 06:07 AM
MGM·Lion 31 May 13 - 06:18 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 31 May 13 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 31 May 13 - 07:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 13 - 08:38 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 08:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 13 - 09:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 13 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 13 - 09:50 AM
MGM·Lion 31 May 13 - 09:50 AM
bobad 31 May 13 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 10:50 AM
MGM·Lion 31 May 13 - 10:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 13 - 12:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 13 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 13 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 01:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 13 - 01:43 PM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 01:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 13 - 01:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 13 - 02:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 13 - 03:03 PM
Jim Carroll 31 May 13 - 03:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 13 - 04:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 13 - 04:56 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 31 May 13 - 05:28 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 May 13 - 08:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 13 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 13 - 03:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 13 - 03:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 13 - 04:53 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 13 - 05:38 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 01 Jun 13 - 07:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 13 - 07:41 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 01 Jun 13 - 08:42 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 01 Jun 13 - 09:04 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 01 Jun 13 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM
bobad 01 Jun 13 - 12:56 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 13 - 12:59 PM
Greg F. 01 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM
Greg F. 01 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jun 13 - 01:24 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jun 13 - 01:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jun 13 - 01:52 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 13 - 01:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 13 - 02:24 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 01 Jun 13 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jun 13 - 03:01 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 01 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 13 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jun 13 - 03:54 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 13 - 04:09 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 01 Jun 13 - 04:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 13 - 04:33 PM
Greg F. 01 Jun 13 - 04:59 PM
Greg F. 01 Jun 13 - 05:01 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 13 - 05:26 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 13 - 05:35 PM
Greg F. 01 Jun 13 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jun 13 - 07:17 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Jun 13 - 10:00 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 01 Jun 13 - 11:53 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 13 - 11:54 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 02 Jun 13 - 12:16 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 13 - 12:25 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 02 Jun 13 - 12:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 13 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 13 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 13 - 06:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 13 - 07:10 AM
bobad 02 Jun 13 - 07:48 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 13 - 11:16 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 13 - 11:17 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 13 - 11:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 13 - 11:47 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 02 Jun 13 - 12:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 13 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Toking Episcopalian 02 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 13 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 13 - 12:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 13 - 01:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Jun 13 - 02:03 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 13 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 13 - 02:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 13 - 03:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 13 - 03:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 13 - 04:02 PM
bobad 02 Jun 13 - 04:47 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 13 - 09:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 13 - 01:42 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 13 - 03:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 13 - 03:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 13 - 04:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 13 - 04:21 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 04:57 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 13 - 05:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 13 - 05:42 AM
GUEST,Same old guest 03 Jun 13 - 05:42 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 05:51 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 07:24 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 13 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 13 - 08:16 AM
bobad 03 Jun 13 - 08:22 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 08:42 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 08:48 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 09:42 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 09:52 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 13 - 10:37 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 11:17 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 13 - 01:17 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 13 - 02:39 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 13 - 02:55 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 13 - 03:05 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 13 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,Guest who 03 Jun 13 - 06:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 13 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 13 - 03:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 13 - 03:09 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 13 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 13 - 03:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 13 - 03:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 13 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 13 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,Guest who dare not speak his name 04 Jun 13 - 04:14 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 13 - 05:23 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 13 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Same old guest 04 Jun 13 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 13 - 06:40 AM
bobad 04 Jun 13 - 06:45 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 13 - 08:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 13 - 09:00 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 13 - 10:47 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 13 - 10:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 13 - 11:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jun 13 - 05:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 13 - 06:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 13 - 06:25 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 12:00 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 12:22 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 01:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 13 - 01:43 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 13 - 03:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 13 - 03:25 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 03:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 13 - 05:51 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 06:01 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 07:50 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 08:55 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 13 - 01:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 13 - 02:40 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 13 - 02:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Jun 13 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Eliza 06 Jun 13 - 06:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 13 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 06 Jun 13 - 06:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jun 13 - 08:41 AM
GUEST 06 Jun 13 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,Eliza 06 Jun 13 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 13 - 10:20 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 13 - 10:52 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 13 - 10:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jun 13 - 02:21 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Jun 13 - 03:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 13 - 03:43 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Jun 13 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Eliza 06 Jun 13 - 06:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Jun 13 - 07:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Jun 13 - 07:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Jun 13 - 07:48 PM
bobad 06 Jun 13 - 08:04 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 13 - 01:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 02:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jun 13 - 03:32 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 13 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 07 Jun 13 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,Guest who shall remain gormless 07 Jun 13 - 04:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jun 13 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 07 Jun 13 - 05:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jun 13 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 06:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Jun 13 - 06:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 07 Jun 13 - 06:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 06:50 AM
bobad 07 Jun 13 - 06:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jun 13 - 06:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Jun 13 - 07:45 AM
bobad 07 Jun 13 - 08:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jun 13 - 08:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jun 13 - 08:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 08:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 08:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 09:00 AM
bobad 07 Jun 13 - 09:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 13 - 09:03 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 13 - 09:49 AM
bobad 07 Jun 13 - 10:36 AM
bobad 07 Jun 13 - 10:42 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 13 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 13 - 01:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jun 13 - 02:34 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Jun 13 - 03:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 13 - 06:47 PM
Greg F. 07 Jun 13 - 09:00 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 13 - 12:44 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 13 - 02:52 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 13 - 05:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 05:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Jun 13 - 06:15 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 13 - 06:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 13 - 06:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 07:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 07:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 07:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 07:23 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 13 - 07:27 AM
bobad 08 Jun 13 - 07:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 07:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 07:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 07:47 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 07:53 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 08:05 AM
bobad 08 Jun 13 - 08:06 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 13 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 08:16 AM
bobad 08 Jun 13 - 08:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 09:16 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 09:30 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 09:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 13 - 09:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 13 - 09:50 AM
bobad 08 Jun 13 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 09:52 AM
bobad 08 Jun 13 - 10:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 13 - 11:14 AM
bobad 08 Jun 13 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 12:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 13 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 12:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 08 Jun 13 - 01:11 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 08 Jun 13 - 02:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 02:16 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 13 - 03:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 04:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 13 - 04:22 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 13 - 04:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 13 - 05:15 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 13 - 11:47 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 13 - 02:28 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 13 - 03:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 13 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 13 - 05:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jun 13 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 13 - 08:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jun 13 - 08:25 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 13 - 12:27 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 13 - 12:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 13 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 13 - 01:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jun 13 - 01:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jun 13 - 02:31 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Jun 13 - 10:22 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 01:36 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 13 - 02:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jun 13 - 03:07 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 03:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 03:21 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 03:46 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 03:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 13 - 04:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 13 - 04:51 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 04:58 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 13 - 05:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jun 13 - 05:01 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 05:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 13 - 05:09 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 05:24 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 05:29 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 05:30 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 06:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 13 - 06:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 06:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 13 - 06:35 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 13 - 06:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 13 - 06:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 07:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 07:21 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 07:26 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 07:31 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 13 - 08:19 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Jun 13 - 08:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 09:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 09:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 13 - 12:56 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 01:51 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jun 13 - 01:51 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 13 - 02:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Guest who is bored shitless 10 Jun 13 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,Eliza 10 Jun 13 - 06:27 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jun 13 - 08:13 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 13 - 01:18 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 13 - 01:34 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Jun 13 - 02:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 13 - 02:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 13 - 03:57 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Jun 13 - 04:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 13 - 06:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jun 13 - 06:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 13 - 07:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 13 - 08:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 13 - 08:12 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 13 - 11:18 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Jun 13 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sin 11 Jun 13 - 01:46 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 13 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Eliza 11 Jun 13 - 02:33 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 13 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Eliza 11 Jun 13 - 03:18 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 13 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,Eliza 11 Jun 13 - 04:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 13 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,Eliza 11 Jun 13 - 05:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 13 - 05:46 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 13 - 03:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 13 - 03:16 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 13 - 03:31 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 13 - 03:55 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 13 - 04:04 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Jun 13 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 13 - 04:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 13 - 04:33 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 13 - 05:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jun 13 - 07:00 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 13 - 07:26 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 13 - 07:29 AM
bobad 12 Jun 13 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 13 - 07:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Jun 13 - 08:01 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 13 - 08:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jun 13 - 08:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Jun 13 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 13 - 08:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 13 - 08:51 AM
bobad 12 Jun 13 - 09:08 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 13 - 09:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jun 13 - 10:57 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 13 - 01:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jun 13 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Jun 13 - 03:18 PM
bobad 12 Jun 13 - 04:57 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 13 - 05:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jun 13 - 06:18 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Jun 13 - 01:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 13 - 02:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 13 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 13 - 03:17 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 13 - 04:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 13 - 04:36 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Jun 13 - 04:52 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 13 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 13 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 13 - 08:35 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 13 - 09:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 13 - 09:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 13 - 09:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 13 - 09:34 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Jun 13 - 09:49 AM
bobad 13 Jun 13 - 09:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 13 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 13 - 10:40 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 13 - 12:14 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 13 - 12:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 13 - 01:09 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 13 - 01:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 13 - 01:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 13 - 03:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 13 - 04:01 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 13 - 03:37 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 13 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 14 Jun 13 - 04:17 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Jun 13 - 05:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 06:22 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 06:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 06:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 07:37 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 13 - 07:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 07:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 07:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 08:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 13 - 08:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 13 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 09:22 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 09:23 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 13 - 09:54 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jun 13 - 09:55 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 09:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 10:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 10:22 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 10:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 10:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 10:41 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 11:05 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 13 - 12:02 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Jun 13 - 12:16 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 12:44 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Jun 13 - 12:56 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 12:58 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Jun 13 - 01:05 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Jun 13 - 01:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 13 - 01:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 01:46 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 01:47 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 02:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 13 - 04:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 04:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 05:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 05:08 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Jun 13 - 05:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 05:24 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 13 - 05:26 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Jun 13 - 12:48 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 13 - 03:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 13 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,keith A 15 Jun 13 - 04:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 13 - 02:40 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 13 - 03:28 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 13 - 03:44 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 13 - 03:57 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 13 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Donkey-spotter 16 Jun 13 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 13 - 05:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 13 - 06:02 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 13 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 13 - 07:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 13 - 12:02 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 13 - 12:08 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 13 - 12:16 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 13 - 12:17 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Jun 13 - 12:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 13 - 12:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 13 - 12:24 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 13 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 13 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 13 - 12:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 13 - 01:17 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Jun 13 - 02:17 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 13 - 03:13 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 13 - 03:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 13 - 04:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 13 - 04:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 13 - 04:58 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Jun 13 - 11:59 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 13 - 03:17 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 13 - 03:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 04:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 13 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 13 - 04:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jun 13 - 04:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 06:23 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Jun 13 - 07:20 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 07:40 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 07:46 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 07:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 08:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 08:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jun 13 - 09:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jun 13 - 09:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 09:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 09:42 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 09:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jun 13 - 10:31 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 11:08 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 11:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jun 13 - 12:24 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 01:06 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 13 - 01:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jun 13 - 02:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jun 13 - 02:41 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 05:20 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 05:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jun 13 - 05:55 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 13 - 06:06 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 13 - 07:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 13 - 07:19 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Jun 13 - 07:28 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 12:21 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 12:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 01:25 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 01:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 01:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jun 13 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 13 - 03:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 03:52 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 04:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 04:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jun 13 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 13 - 04:19 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 04:40 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 13 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 04:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jun 13 - 04:54 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 04:54 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 05:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jun 13 - 05:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 06:01 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 06:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 06:25 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 06:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 08:42 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 11:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jun 13 - 03:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 13 - 04:15 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 13 - 05:22 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 13 - 03:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 13 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jun 13 - 04:45 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 13 - 04:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jun 13 - 05:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 13 - 12:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 13 - 12:53 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 13 - 01:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jun 13 - 01:24 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 13 - 05:38 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 13 - 02:31 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 13 - 02:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jun 13 - 02:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 13 - 02:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 13 - 03:01 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 13 - 03:02 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 13 - 03:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 13 - 03:18 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Jun 13 - 03:26 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 13 - 04:38 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Jun 13 - 04:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 13 - 05:08 AM
bobad 21 Jun 13 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 13 - 10:18 AM
bobad 21 Jun 13 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 13 - 10:42 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 13 - 11:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 13 - 11:41 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 13 - 12:35 PM
Backwoodsman 21 Jun 13 - 12:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 13 - 01:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 13 - 02:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 13 - 05:43 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 13 - 10:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 13 - 12:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 13 - 12:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Jun 13 - 12:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jun 13 - 01:03 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Jun 13 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 13 - 01:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jun 13 - 02:26 PM
bobad 22 Jun 13 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 13 - 03:11 PM
bobad 22 Jun 13 - 06:03 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Jun 13 - 11:51 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Jun 13 - 11:53 PM
GUEST,Guest who is about to vomit, 23 Jun 13 - 02:20 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 13 - 03:36 AM
GUEST,Guest who thinks religion is bollocks 23 Jun 13 - 03:51 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 13 - 04:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 13 - 04:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 13 - 04:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 13 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 13 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Guest who is confused 23 Jun 13 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 13 - 05:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 13 - 05:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 13 - 06:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 13 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Guest who has nothing better to do 23 Jun 13 - 07:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 13 - 07:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 13 - 07:29 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 13 - 07:54 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 13 - 07:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 13 - 08:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 13 - 08:26 AM
bobad 23 Jun 13 - 08:32 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 13 - 08:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 13 - 08:50 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 13 - 08:52 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 13 - 09:36 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 13 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,CS 23 Jun 13 - 11:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 13 - 12:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 13 - 04:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 13 - 05:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 13 - 05:13 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 13 - 05:29 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 13 - 05:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 13 - 05:32 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 13 - 02:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 13 - 03:51 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 13 - 04:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 13 - 04:24 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 13 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 13 - 04:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 13 - 04:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 13 - 04:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 13 - 04:40 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 13 - 05:15 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 13 - 05:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 13 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 13 - 06:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 13 - 06:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 13 - 06:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 13 - 06:20 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 13 - 06:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 13 - 06:30 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 13 - 07:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 13 - 08:01 AM
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Subject: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:53 PM

A very sad reflection on what Britain has become in 2013. I do hope the youth of Britain will respond positively.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-respond-to--serious-incident--after-reports-of-assault-in-woolwich--south-london-150210708.html?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: kendall
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:35 PM

Appalled is hardly sufficient.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:51 PM

The firearms officers should be getting a bollocking for not killing them.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:04 PM

If they weren't shot dead, then that was a good thing, these men wanted to be martyred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:47 PM

Sickening.

Watch out for the backlash - most of the Muslims in the UK are decent law abiding people who will be as appalled at this event as anyone. Let's hope that anger doesn't make them victims too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:06 PM

Ridiculous thread title. Maybe a mod can come up with something more helpful. And it didn't take long for the predictable imbecile response to show up. Well done Dave Hanson(yawn).

Blood-soaked murderer tries to explain...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:08 PM

agreed- most muslims dont go in for that jihad stuff.
terrible - maybe about 10 mile from my home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:46 PM

Peter, it isn't your thread, so please don't make suggestions as to changing the title, now run away and play please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:58 PM

I'm surprised that you would stand by your clever-alec stupidity, Alan. Anyone thinking to discuss the Woolwich atrocity is unlike to search for "Britain 2013" before starting a new thread. And anyone looking for this thread in a year's time will do well to remember your laboured cynicism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:01 PM

As I said Peter, go and play yourself. The thread title stands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:22 PM

Tragic and horrifying. My husband is a black Muslim, and I'm worried that all law-abiding Muslims might be ostracised for this barbaric act.It is indeed almost incredible that such a thing could take place in Britain in 2013, so I see nothing wrong with the thread title. This time last year, our country was so proud about the Jubilee and our preparations for the Olympics. Visitors of all races and creeds were welcomed and mixed together happily. This event has cast a dreadful cloud over London. So sorry for the young man's family. What a totally needless death.


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Subject: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:42 PM

An off-duty soldier was hacked to death in Woolwich, SE London, today - in broad daylight - by two guys shouting Allah Akhbar. After beheading him, they told bystanders to call the police, then hung around chatting. Police duly arrived, shot and injured them and put them under arrest.

Man with blood on his hands holds knife at attack scene


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:51 PM

Just realised that that video link might not be available stateside.

Here it is on Youtube.

And here's a BBC report of the ghastly incident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:54 PM

I'm worried that all law-abiding Muslims might be ostracised for this barbaric act.

Probably with good reason, Eliza. Trouble is that until Moslem leaders renounce extremism like this and begin to actively excommunicate the perpetrators of violence most people will believe that this type of behavior is condoned by that religion. I am not saying that is a true picture of Moslems but it is what a lot of people will believe. And world leaders will pander to a vocal majority whether they are right or wrong.

Those "law-abiding Muslims" need to ensure that the extremists are caught and brought to justice by working closely with anti-terrorist police and lobbying their leaders to let it be known that there will be no 'heaven' for the jihadists. Is it Moslem or Muslim BTW? - My first introduction to the religion is when my Dad talked about his ancestors, the Cossacks, fighting 'Mohammedans'! Is that no longer PC?

I hope all is OK for you and your husband.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:55 PM

We are living in a madhouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:59 PM

Thank you Dave. Fortunately most people in our little village (pop 800) know my husband and he's well-liked as he does a lot for the community. He calls himself a Musulman, the term used in W Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:18 PM

Its getting more like the end of the Roman Empire every day...madness rules socially and politically.

The TV screen is the circus and the prancing celebrities the mad perverted rulers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:27 PM

Police just confirmed, a number of people are posting footage on several social websites tonight showing the young soldiers head being hacked off. I hope the fears I have tonight don't become reality.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4938197/shooting-in-woolwich-london.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:45 PM

Sounds like pretty much nobody knows much of what actually went on or why.

Tune in again later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:00 PM

Note that the ill-named Britain 2013 thread is already discussing this incident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:05 PM

"Sounds like pretty much nobody knows much of what actually went on or why."

Au contraire dear Greg there were multiple witnesses and one of the killers himself spoke on video:

A witness identified as James told local radio station LBC that he saw two suspects attack the young victim with knives, including a meat cleaver.

"They were hacking at this poor guy, literally," he told the station. "They were hacking at him, chopping him, cutting him."

Multiple witnesses said the victim was wearing a T-shirt bearing the logo of the veterans charity Help for Heroes.

The attack took place less than a mile from a military barracks, in Woolwich, southeast London.

Britain's Home Secretary Theresa May told ITV News she had been briefed by the Director General of the Security Service MI5 on what she called a "sickening and barbaric" attack.

One eyewitness posted on Twitter that he had seen the victim "with his head chopped off" but this was not confirmed by any police or government officials.

Local resident Graham Wilders told the BBC he saw a man pulling out a handgun. He said:

    "As I drove around the corner I see the car on the pavement. I thought there's been an accident … there was two people leaning over and I thought they were trying to resuscitate him, there was a bloke against the wall.

    "Next minute ... another bloke has come along and told me they were actually stabbing him, apparently they actually run the car into him and knocked him down before they done anything.

    "And then next minute there was a bloke come along in a silver little car and he got out and he shouted out to everyone 'someone phone the police.' So we phone the police. So next minute what happened he actually pulled a handgun out."

    "Next minute I see the silver car shoot off."



The man holding the cleaver was videotaped by a bystander saying: "By Allah we swear by the almighty Allah and we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone."

"Leave our lands and we can all live in peace, that's all I have to say."


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:17 PM

Here's a fuller report, Greg, with copious eye-witness detail:

Daily Telegraph

The calm demeanour of the guy with blood-covered hands who had the nerve to apologise that women had had to witness the atrocity was extraordinary and chilling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:35 PM

My Arab partner has just emailed me from Amman: "Are these guys human beings?????"

Meanwhile the Muslim Council of Britain has condemned the atrocity in the most unequivocal terms: Muslims condemn attack


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 13 - 08:22 PM

"Muslim Council of Britain has condemned the atrocity in the most unequivocal terms".

NB, all brilliant Mudcat analysts, including the esteemed OP, who are convinced that all evil is due to religion.

I wonder how long it will take til said Mudcatters forget this lesson---yet again. Not long, I'll wager.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 09:00 PM

"Evil" itself is of course a concept born out of religion, Ron, implying the involvement of some supernatural, Satanic force.

If this latest horror was committed, as you seem to assume, by people whose thinking was firmly grounded in the here and now, then it would indeed be one small step (there have been others) towards rebutting my suspicion that many of the worst things that happen are done by people inspired by superstitious/religious beliefs, or result from the exploition of such beliefs.

I strongly suspect, however, that the perps in this case had some crazy notion that they were fulfilling their god's purpose. Their post-crime behaviour had all the hallmarks of a pitch at martyrdom, in the belief that they were soon be rewarded by their maker.

So yep, broadly speaking, I'd say irrational behaviour and religious beliefs sit comfortably together, and likely did so in the present case. But that's not to say you can't have one without the other, nor that all people of religion do crazy things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:39 AM

Britain is on a tilt switch as it is without this.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/woolwich-edl-demo-mosques-attacked-021243145.html?vp=1#tWrZnhl


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:42 AM

'Leave our lands'? I've seen the pictures of these two animals and neither of them look like Afghans or Iraqis to me. Just scum. Worthless wastes of flesh who've probably turned to some bullshit 'religion' to fill up their meaningless, pointless lives. And no, it's nothing to do with Islam any more than the IRA had anything to do with Catholicism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:24 AM

Close eye-witness account


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:49 AM

That lady is Britain 2013 too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:24 AM

A decade ago the very thought of such an incident on a British street would have been unthinkable. Sadly I do not think it will be the last.

British Muslim terrorists have moved their game up a notch,they seem to be working under the single cell system, clean skins without record, minimum use of computer/cell phone devices, difficult to gather intelligence on such people, no sophistication or time span in any degree goes into planning, no quartermaster required, no camp attendance or association with T.O's (training officers).

I don't want to be alarmist, but if such attack operations were to occur again in the UK we could see some group or collective individuals deliver a measured response.

The government are playing the seriousness of this incident down this morning, much as they did after recent council elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:26 AM

Eye-witness statements have been tweeted and quoted in a headline in the Sun newspaper to the effect that the victim was beheaded. But this is put in serious doubt by Ingrid Loyau-Kennett's very coherent and detailed account in the Guardian (Peter Laban's link above). I should have known not to trust the Sun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:33 AM

The account in today's Daily Mirror says it all, many British papers such as the Guardian fearful of printing the facts it would appear.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-horrified-witnesses-tell-1904602


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Barb'ry
Date: 23 May 13 - 07:00 AM

The Islamic Society of Britain has been quick to put out this statement (link below). What happened in Woolwich was terrible, disgusting, a heinous crime but we must be very careful not to let our condemnation of what happened spread into a condemnation of all Muslims. It would be scarily easy to allow that to happen.

Woolwich Terror Statement


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Barb'ry
Date: 23 May 13 - 07:06 AM

Guest Alan - although you did start the thread as you are a Guest I am unable to contact you via a pm to discuss the title. As this appalling event has affected many people, I am going to add 'Woolwich' to the thread title so that we don't get lots of other threads starting on the same subject. If you would like to join Mudcat, you will be able to use all the functions, including messaging people.

Also, it would be sad for people to get the idea that this event defines 'Britain' or 'Britishness' - I hope you agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:31 AM

"He said he had killed the man because he (the victim) was a British soldier who killed Muslim women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan. He was furious about the British Army being over there."

Well, the man has a valid point. His method of acting on that point may be unfortunate, but "blowback" is a reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:38 AM

Just unfortunate Greg?
And valid anyway?
I think you are out on your own on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013 (Woolwich)
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:44 AM

"Also, it would be sad for people to get the idea that this event defines 'Britain' or 'Britishness' - I hope you agree."..Barb'ry 23rd May.

From Akenaton....19th may.
"liberals" should ponder on this truth, before sounding off about "equality" for sexual minorities, or support for those who would like to see our heads severed from our bodies."

Welcome to the new "liberal" Britain Barb'ry!


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:11 AM

Keith, rather than try to outdo each other in the vocabulary of atrocity, it might be more productive to give measured thought to yesterday's horror/atrocity/barbarity. Choice of words aside, Greg's point is entirely valid and, as far as I can see, he's the first to have raised it.

No doubt you'll agree that these violent acts, by people willing to sacrifice their own lives, would not be happening if the US had reacted rationally to 9-11 and the Bush-Blair criminal invasion of Saddam had not happened. The challenge now is to find some way of getting back to where we were.

And before you say it, yes, we would obviously be in a better place still if 9-11 had not happened in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:19 AM

I have not indulged in any vocabulary of atrocity.
I do not accept that such deeds are in anyway justified.
You and Greg are entitled to your opinions, but I will not be joining a debate on the pros and cons of this act, or how much we are to blame for what was done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013 (Woolwich)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:26 AM

So sanity prevailed, for which thanks Barb'ry.

If you can be bothered, you might consider importing some of the posts in the unarmed soldier beheaded thread then closing/deleting that thread. Although Alan seems to favour other accounts over that given to the Guardian and ITV Daybreak by Ingrid Layou-Kennett, I think my putting "beheaded" in the other thread's title could turn out to embarrass me. As chatter solidifies into hard fact I think we'll find that there was no beheading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013 (Woolwich)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:33 AM

Keith, you quibbled at the word "unfortunate" which was cerainly not wrong, but plainly not expressive enough for your taste. Now if I may quibble with you, I have not suggested - and I doubt if any Mudcatter would suggest - that yesterday's murder was "justified". It was, however, somewhere along a scale towards "inevitable."
Threads combined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:43 AM

Yes Peter, this crime and the London Underground massacre were obviously prompted to a large extent by UK foreign policy.

BUT....these crimes were committed by psychiatrically unbalanced religious zealots, who I am quite sure have the tacit approval of a pretty large section of British Moslems.

OK maybe we reap what we have sown, but Powell's "rivers of blood" are always on the point of welling up at source.

The recent trials of mainly British Pakistani muslims for the grooming and rape of children points to extreme cultural differences and the fact that Human rights activists constantly try to deny this adds to the toxicity.

The leaders of Islam here in the UK,no more speak for the ordinary
people, than do our politicians for us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:44 AM

Wow, quick! Or maybe you were ahead of me. Thanks Barb'ry/mod.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:46 AM

Inevitable AND wholly predictable, Peter.

How long are certain people going to
support killing innocent civilians by the thousands - or tens of thousands - 'keep poking that hornet's nest with a stick' if you will, and then act suprised and outraged when they get stung?

Clearly a case of "the chickens coming home to roost" - and more to come unless sanity prevails, and apologists like several individuals on this thread see the error of their ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:58 AM

I am quite sure have the tacit approval of a pretty large section of British Moslems.

Are ye now? Is that because of your crystal ball, your consistent disregard of facts & evidence, your demonstrated bigotry, or just your plain old bullshitting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 13 - 10:06 AM

I dont know if you have any experience of British Asian communities Greg?.....I do not use a crystal ball, ignore facts, or practice bigotry.....YOU are the expert "bullshitter"


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 May 13 - 10:43 AM

Serious question Akenaton. You say you are sure that they have the tacit approval of a large section of British Muslims.

Granted, you have form when it comes to statements concerning large sections of society that you woke up one morning and decided to hate but I await your rationale with bemused interest.

The hospital where my office sits has over a thousand Muslims working every day saving people's lives alongside their 7000 colleagues. I wonder if I would see the same results if I did a straw poll.

Not that I would. Assumptions to support preconceived bigotry are best left to the experts eh Ake?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 13 - 10:54 AM

Er - did these chaps look "Asian"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:01 AM

This was a piece of bloody PR intended to encourage the British public to think twice about allowing their governments to blow up muslims overseas. And while the act was indeed barbaric, the message was delivered extremely successfully; even with This Morning's Lorraine Kelly's attempts to stop Ingrid Loyau-Kennet from repeating too much of the stuff about women and children being blown up in Afghanistan. There's going to be no chance of a media blackout with so many witnesses and mobile recording devices around. As drone attacks continue overseas, I wouldn't be surprised if we may see more of this kind of thing here in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:02 AM

Clearly the government and the Muslim Council of the UK sense more of a backlash than they care to admit.I spoke to my brother in law who is with a major media corporation in London earlier today, he said they received a directive early this morning, no interviews with anyone associated with a list provided, no interviews or photographs to be used in reports of the three buildings damaged last night in Manchester and the South East of England.

Maybe it is a tactical move by the government, but what about the freedom of the press and the democratic right to express ones views ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:39 AM

Ake, I don't know which (if any) British Asian community you know, but it was not representative.

I DO happen to know a bit about Islam, having a flat in Bosnia and a Palestinian Arab partner who was brought up as a muslim. To me you remarks in this thread sound ill-informed, insular and suggestive of a blinkered world view. Overwhelmingly both in the UK and around the rest of the world, muslims will have been horrified and disgusted by the Woolwich killing; much more so, in fact, than I am myself.

My own reaction has been little more than a shrug. Yes, an unarmed man has been brutally slaughtered without any hint of justification. But in all honesty, so what? We now discover that three of the four Americans killed by drones since 2009 were untargeted innocents. If we apply that ratio to all the civilians killed by US drones, we may assume the US has killed many hundreds of innocent people in its misguided and counter-productive efforts at extrajudicial execution. These murders may be done remotely rather than at close range with meat cleavers, but the mess on the ground can be just as bad. Yet according to polls, most Americans are comfortable with this.

So however sickened we may be by the Woolwich slaughter, we should retain some sense of perspective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:18 PM

You make a rather good point Peter...and of course I was wrong to say Asians, but we have a large British Muslim population in Glasgow who are very insular. I have spoken to quite a number over the years and gauge their attitude to non Muslims as pretty derisory and certainly most believe us to be morally bankrupt.....often with good cause, but there is no integration possible for cultural and religious reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:24 PM

Alan. "A decade ago the very thought of such an incident on a British street would have been unthinkable."

Surely you haven't forgotten the murders of Stephen Lawrence and Anthony Walker? Hardly broad daylight middle of town either of them, but the only "crime" any of these victims committed was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and in the "wrong" ethnic group.

Yes, I agree with Peter K's comments about the damage which Britain and the US are doing in Afghanistan. But the only effect which yesterday's slaughter will have is to deepen the wedge currently being driven between the Christian and Muslim communities in this country. And that of course is exactly what these ratbags wanted, just like their counterparts on the far right.

Strange and sad how fascists and Islamic fundamentalists end up as a mirror image of one another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:31 PM

Akenaton. I can't speak for Glasgow, not having been there for many years, but I've spoken to Muslims all over England and find them anything but insular. In fact the vast majority have been extremely welcoming and friendly. If some Muslims consider Britain to be morally bankrupt, perhaps they've got good reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:41 PM

"Little more that a shrug", My God almighty, where DO some of you come from. An innocent man is brutally murdered in the street..and you "shrug". Sometimes I do despair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 01:11 PM

Good point Fred, the point he is making refers to a similar incident occurring before on the streets of the UK in which PC Keith Blakelock was also hacked to death in the line of duty.

Full story here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-10856921


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 01:26 PM

Well said, Fred McCormick.

HiLo, any idea how many innocent people have been killed by US drones, even just during Obama's presidency? Do you grieve for each and every British soldier killed in Afghanistan? Have you the slightest idea how many innocent people have been killed in Baghdad in (say) the last fortnight? Spare me the crocodile tears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 13 - 02:38 PM

My husband (African-born Muslim) was extremely grieved and upset by the events in London. He tells me no true Muslim would ever contemplate committing such atrocities. BUT on arrival here in Norfolk he first attended a smallish mosque where the worshippers were apparently solely from Pakistan and Bangladesh. They were hostile and rude to him, and after eight weeks of unpleasantness he changed to the mosque at the UEA, where the folk, from many countries, were much more friendly and welcoming. The first mosque seemed very 'fundamentalist' (his word) and even racist. At the gym where he's a member there is a Pakistani Muslim couple and the man spoke to him about being more radical and 'active' in Islam. This worried him and he doesn't speak to him any more. He feels that the Asian type of Muslim he has encountered is somewhat radicalised and too fierce, not at all integrated into British life like himself. This isn't a racist opinion, just an observation on his part. I told him to be very very careful not to be sucked in to any 'special group' of over-zealous Muslims, as he may end up being under surveillance etc. It's a minefield for him. Luckily, he's so well-liked in our village and even comes to church with me from time to time that no-one could say he's a 'fundamentalist'. I see on the News that the EDL are on the march, There will no doubt be more of that sort of thing as a backlash after this attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:27 PM

".....The US, the UK and its allies have repeatedly killed Muslim civilians over the past decade (and before that), but defenders of those governments insist that this cannot be "terrorism" because it is combatants, not civilians, who are the targets. Can it really be the case that when western nations continuously kill Muslim civilians, that's not "terrorism", but when Muslims kill western soldiers, that is terrorism? Amazingly, the US has even imprisoned people at Guantanamo and elsewhere on accusations of "terrorism" who are accused of nothing more than engaging in violence against US soldiers who invaded their country.

It's true that the soldier who was killed yesterday was out of uniform and not engaged in combat at the time he was attacked. But the same is true for the vast bulk of killings carried out by the US and its allies over the last decade, where people are killed in their homes, in their cars, at work, while asleep (in fact, the US has re-defined "militant" to mean "any military-aged male in a strike zone"). Indeed, at a recent Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on drone killings, Gen. James Cartwright and Sen. Lindsey Graham both agreed that the US has the right to kill its enemies even while they are "asleep", that you don't "have to wake them up before you shoot them" and "make it a fair fight". Once you declare that the "entire globe is a battlefield" (which includes London) and that any "combatant" (defined as broadly as possible) is fair game to be killed - as the US has done - then how can the killing of a solider of a nation engaged in that war, horrific though it is, possibly be "terrorism"? ..."

From The Guardian - 'Was This Terrorism?'


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:50 PM

Guest Alan: "A decade ago the very thought of such an incident on a British street would have been unthinkable"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhfgQOLSrTQ


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:52 PM

So, because the US and UK kill innocent people it is OK for other people to? The only thing an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth philosophy will result in is a world of blind soup-eaters. To make it clear to the apologists out there, both 'sides' are in the wrong. The only difference is the scale. And if we are talking numbers does anyone have the actual facts of how many people have been killed by the US and UK and how have been killed by the fundamentalists all over the world? I suspect the difference will be minimal but am willing to learn if someone can present the statistics. Bearing in mind that on the side of the fundamentalists we are talking about killing people of their own race and religion if they are a slightly different sect!

DtG


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Subject: Obit: A Soldier died yesterday
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:06 PM

I have this from my friend Bill Mitton:

Bill Mitton
I THINK I NEED TO SAY THIS.....

I AM HE
I am he who would welcome you
For I know of my country's freedom
I am he who would bind your wounds
For I know of my country's love
I am he who would feed your hunger
For I know of my land's bounty
I am he who would be your shield
For my home knows no suffering
I am he who would understand your God
For I know and Love my own.
Yet If you have no God
this I to will defend
I am he who beats no martial drum
Nor waves his banner high
I am he who would be a reluctant patriot
For my land has yet to need one.
YET
I am he who holds his freedom precious
And would be savage in it's defence
I am he who know his flag's history
And cherishes it's union.
I am he who holds these islands dear
For I am Celt, Angle, Saxon, I am
Hugonaut, I am Saphardim, I am Ashkanasi
I am West Indian
I am Punjhabi, I am Bangladashi
I am the child of imigrants
I am the son of refugees
My face is many coloured
My heart holds many faiths
And sometimes none.
BUT THIS IS MY LAND
I AM HE WHO HOLDS IT DEAR
THIS YOU SHOULD KNOW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:25 PM

British soldiers do not commit murder in Afghanistan.
The Independent. August 2012

British soldiers in Afghanistan are being forced to act as bait in an attempt to draw the Taliban into opening fire, a serving platoon commander has alleged.

Soldiers are risking their lives to get round strict rules of engagement that allow them to shoot only if they are being attacked or are in "imminent danger".

The Taliban are increasingly exploiting the rules by hiding weapons in undergrowth near patrol routes – meaning British forces cannot act against them until they actually pick up their guns.

The claims are made by Lieutenant Jimmy Clark , a platoon commander who recently returned from a tour of Afghanistan.

Shocking scenes to be broadcast in a documentary, Our War, on BBC Three this evening reveal how it was only by luck that soldiers survived a bomb while on a patrol nicknamed "Op Bait" late last year.

Lt Clark from 2 Mercian, who was leading the patrol, describes his frustration at the rules of engagement, which led to soldiers acting as bait to tempt the Taliban into attacking them. "It's difficult really to 'fight' an enemy we're not allowed to fight. Under our rules of engagement we can only really return firehttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-soldiers-resort-to-baiting-taliban-to-beat-rules-of-engagement-8082165.ht


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:35 PM

The Woolwich killers were Nigerian.
Muslims are not being murdered in Nigeria, they are doing the murdering.
CBN
"Islamic fighters have killed scores in multiple attacks on Christian homes and churches. There have been calls for revenge, but also for forgiveness.

Madalla Christmas Massacre

"It was a beautiful day. We came to church to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ," worshipper Uche Bonaventure said.

"People started coming as early as six o'clock in the morning. It was going to be a joyous occasion," recalled Father Issac Achi, at St. Theresa's Catholic Church in Madellah

But it never turned out that way.

"It was five or ten minutes after the first service and suddenly this boom!" Bonaventure remembered.

A suicide bomber in a vehicle packed with explosives drove up a busy street and stopped in front of the church. Bonaventure and his 17-month-old son had just walked out the church's front doors when the bomb exploded.

"The explosion threw me on this side and my son was hurled across the other side. Around me I could see bodies on fire," he told CBN News.

The radical Muslim group Boko Haram claimed responsibility for this attack and several other attacks in various parts of Nigeria last Christmas Day.

The group's goal is to turn Africa's most populous nation into an Islamic country ruled by Sharia law.

In January alone, Boko Haram struck 21 times, killing more than 250 people.

Almost 1,000 have died in recent months in multiple terror attacks around the country.

Two hundred miles north of St. Theresa's church Ester Garba remembers her dedicated husband who was killed in a bomb attack.

"So many people loved my husband. He loved to share the gospel with others," she said.

Isaac Kure's father was killed in the same attack.

"They would not let me see my father's body. He was beyond recognition," he said.

Margaret Frames' husband was also one of the victims of an attack by the radical Islamic group.

"He was shot in the mouth, in the elbow, and in the back. I have not slept very well since that day," she told CBN News.

On Jan. 20, 26 days after the Christmas Day massacre, Boko Haram killed 185 people in a string of coordinated attacks in Kano.
A Boko Haram spokesman has declared war on Nigeria's government, the security services, and the country's Christians.

"I enjoy killing anyone that God commands me to kill the way I enjoy killing chickens and rams," the spokesman said in a video released online.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/February/Terror-Group-Enjoys-Killing-Nigerian-Christians-/


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:14 PM

Oh dear. What is happening to me? I agree with Fluffy. None of which excuses the attack. And please all remember that Muslim authorities and many Muslim individuals have spoke out to condemn the attack in very forceful terms.

Was there a security failure? I thought I was hearing that the perps were "on radar". And why did the police take so long to arrive?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:51 PM

Keith, are you sure the Woolwich killers are Nigerian? Where have you seen that, and do you know how their nationality has been defined? (Passports? Place of birth?) Your words about muslims doing the killing in Nigeria come just as Boko Haram elements have come under severe pressure from a major government offensive in the north of the ocuntry. Apart from which, your point is fair enough.

DtG, are you counting zealous American Christians among the fundamentalists? If so, you might conceivably be right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:05 PM

#Woolwich: "Nothing in Islam justifies this dreadful act" (D Cameron)? "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them" (Repentance, the Koran).


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:10 PM

My poem cum song "Impressions of London in 1997" - http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/478320652


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:10 PM

The named man arrested is British and born here. His father is Nigerian but lives here (according to BBC News).


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:13 PM

My friend Tarek Fatah on the butchering of Lee Rigby:

U.K. Beheading Shows: It's Time To Fight the Doctrine of Jihad

"While ordinary Britons and non-Muslims around the world are bewildered by these never-ending acts of terrorism, the response of the leaders of the Islamic community is the tired old cliche -- Islam is a religion of peace, and jihad is simply an "inner struggle.""

The Huffington Post


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:26 PM

David Cameron a couple of years ago "The multiculultural state has failed"; me, for decades, "It's our world/our United Nations that should be multicultural.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:29 PM

I think it is important to remember that Christianity has many different sects
As Christianity developed, differences arose between Christians. At the moment there are three major Christian groups (Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestant), and many other smaller groups (called sects, or denominations) within these (E.g. Greek Orthodox, Anglo-Catholic, Evangelical, Methodist, Anglican etc.).
The Muslims also have different sects, who have differences.
The people responsible for this murder had the beliefs of ONE SECT of Muslims, it is unfair to blame all Muslims for this murder, or to lump all sects of the Muslim faith together.
The murder of this soldier is no worse than any murder, and no worse than this some of you here.. need to get real.
The Guardian, Thursday 2 May 2013 13.41 BST

Birmingham murder – family of Mohammed Saleem appeal for witnesses
Shazia Khan, left, comforts Nazia Maqsood as they appeal for information over the death of their father, Mohammed Saleem. Photograph: PA

A 75-year-old man stabbed to death yards from his home may have been targeted in a racially motivated attack, according to police.

Mohammed Saleem, who used a walking stick, was stabbed three times in the back as he returned home from prayers at his local mosque in Small Heath, Birmingham, on Monday night.

The blows were struck with such violence they penetrated to the front of his body.

The father of seven also had no defensive wounds in what has been described as a swift, vicious and cowardly attack by the man leading the murder investigation, Detective Superintendent Mark Payne of West Midlands police.

Officers want to trace a white man, aged 25-32, of medium height and build, spotted on CCTV footage running near the scene of the attack around the time it happened, just before 10.30pm.

Police also want to trace a seven-seat people carrier captured on CCTV, driving near the mosque with the two male occupants, both white and in their 30s, who are considered "significant witnesses".

In an emotional family appeal on Thursday, two of Saleem's daughters, Shazia Khan, 45, and Nazia Maqsood, 44, called for the attackers to hand themselves in. They tearfully described their father as a "widely respected member of the community" and "much-loved".

Payne said the possibility it was a racially motivated attack was "a significant line of inquiry" and a large number of detectives were working on the case. "To the attacker I say we will find you and we will bring you to justice," he added.

Khan, who lives in London, said she believed it was "a premeditated brutal attack, pre-planned, intended to kill".

She said: "I cannot see him having any enemies being so full of hate to do this to him. He was an old man – that's what he was. He had no other agenda in his life, it's unacceptable and we just cannot believe an attack like this would happen to him. We just cannot understand it.

"We have to walk past where he was killed and we can visualise it – we have to live with that for the rest of our lives."

Describing her father, Khan said he had worked with youths at the mosque and "was a really good role model and had a great sense of humour, very tongue in cheek". She said people from all walks of life had been paying their condolences.

Khan also had a message for her father's killers: "We don't know who carried out the attack – all we can say is you will be caught and you will be punished and justice will be done, legally.

"I hope they come forward. I hope that anyone who knows this man [seen in Wyndcliffe Road] or the driver in the car, there may be mobile phone videos made of the killing – we don't know. If there's any information people are sharing, every little bit of information is vital that will help catch the killer.

"It is unusual for someone of that description to be in that area. It may not be linked, we don't know, but every avenue has to be covered. We have to all pull together and get justice for my father and anybody else, because this could happen again."


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:35 PM

The detainee was born into a devout Christian family and converted to Islam about ten years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:42 PM

Terry Glavin, Ottawa Citizen columnist, on the killing of 25-year-old Royal Fusilier Lee Rigby:

"Note well that these idiocies about blowback and retaliation do not generally come from the mosques at all. It's the sort of rubbish that comes from out of the mouths of moral illiterates.

It should stop."

Column: Moral illiterates weigh in on Woolwich


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 07:20 PM

I don't think people should make comparisons with the war in Afghanistan with what happened yesterday in Woolwich. Keith Blakelock, a serving police officer was also cut to pieces on a British street with a machete. That was before the British government undertook the current war against Muslim extremists.

Full story here.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Keith_Blakelock


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:21 PM

Glad you remembered that one, Alan. Back up the thread you were saying that nothing like the Woolwich crime could have happened even ten years ago. Anyway, is it Britain 2013 or Britain 1985? Make your mind up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:28 PM

As I said before Peter, go play yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:46 AM


The hospital where my office sits has over a thousand Muslims working every day saving people's lives


The Glasgow airport bombers included hospital doctors.
The London bombers included school workers.
Their colleagues had no idea they were militants.

Although this pair were known to security as militant would-be jihadists, they could not monitor them because there are "thousands" such known to them.

As Islamic terrorists go, these were remarkably restrained.
All previous have tried to kill as many people as possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:40 AM

Bobad...I dont know if you have read of the 7/7 London underground bombings, which were directly linked to British involvement the war in Iraq and carefully planned.

Of course this does not excuse the crime, but gives an insight into the thinking of many politically motivated young Muslims.

Contrary to what you have been saying for a couple of years, we, the UK, should not be involved in these self-serving adventures...such as Iraq, Libya, Syria etc


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:43 AM

DtG, are you counting zealous American Christians among the fundamentalists?

I would indeed, as I would count secular extremists or those from any other country or religion. I don't know why you would single out American Christians any more than the others but I suppose you have your own agenda. It is extremism that is wrong from whatever background.

I would like to know if there are any factual evidence that one 'side' has killed more people or been responsible for more atrocities than another. I asked for that before but as none has been presented I guess any such arguments on this thread are, as is usual for Mudcat, speculation and personal prejudice.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:05 AM

Done a bit of digging myself. To try and ensure an unbiased view I consulted an Islamic source - WikiIslam

"Sunni extremists accounted for the greatest number of terrorist attacks and fatalities for the third consecutive year," the report says. "More than 5,700 incidents were attributed to Sunni extremists, accounting for nearly 56 percent of all attacks and about 70 percent of all fatalities."

The report says that in 2011, a total of 10,283 terrorism attacks across the world killed 12,533 people. Terrorism also is blamed for 25,903 injuries and 5,554 kidnappings.

According to NCTC, of the 12,533 terrorism-related deaths worldwide, 8,886 were perpetrated by "Sunni extremists," 1,926 by "secular/political/anarchist" groups, 1,519 by "unknown" factions, 170 by a category described as "other", and 77 by "Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist" groups.


The information comes from the 2011 NCTC Report on Terrorism, which is based on information available as of March 12, 2012.

Now, I have done half the work. Can someone let us know how many people were killed by US/UK attacks in the same period? I would be very surprised if it was vastly different.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:21 AM

I think you miss the point Dave...if I understand what you are saying.

Surely Western involvement has led to the widespead de-stabilisation of the Middle East and North Africa and that has produce religious and ethnic conflict and spread fundamentalism.

Personally, my opinion is that this was not Western stupidity, but a deliberate attempt to gain access to the area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,musket without sans
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:32 AM

Keith. I shall go and make a citizens arrest on all my colleagues then. Just in case. Then I shall arrest the Christians I work with, just in case.

Then I shall arrest you because I used to employ someone who lives in Hertford and he has a police record.

Doesn't take long in each thread for your veneer of respectability to peel off, does it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:50 AM

I fully understand that, ake - I don't believe it is an excuse for attacks on anyone though. Surely Gandhi showed us that there IS an alternative didn't he? The point I am making is to those who seem to endlessly repeat the mantra of "America/UK/The west/Christians/Bolivian Unicyclists are even worse." And the point I am trying to make is that extremists are all as bad as each other. Why people cannot accept that there is just NO excuse for ANYONE killing in this way is beyond me.

Oh - And I agree fully that it was stupidity and greed that caused it. On all sides.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:56 AM

Sorry - damn preef rooding - It was NOT stupidity BUT greed etc etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:59 AM

I think some of you are missing the point Keith is making. He is a British Christian going about his life in a society he contributed to, as did his family before him. If individuals wish to live within an established society they should firstly respect the law of the land, also not expect their cultural identity and traditions to receive preferential treatment. I witnessed people spitting on the coffins of British service men and women arriving home from Afghanistan, I am yet to see or hear a public apology for those actions in any hastily assembled self beneficial news conference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:08 AM

Please do not try to speak for me "Alan."


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:18 AM

Maybe calmer and more thoughtful heads have decided that more comment would be tantamount to shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre Alan.

Maybe they also feel that comments such as those by our resident anti liberal, anti traveller, anti gay contributor, would simply amount to an inflammatory challenge and cause more trouble both from other Muslims and our own very nasty racist thugs.

If we let terrorists force us to lower our standards and change the way we live, then they have alreay won!

The simple answer is to break the cycle of hatred, not reinforce it!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:28 AM

If individuals wish to live within an established society they should firstly respect the law of the land

I would strongly suspect that those who do not adhere to the law of the land are, in the main, not concerned with political or religious ideology. What would you have us do with them, Alan?

Don, yes, the best answer is to break the cycle of hatred but that is far from simple. Better men than you or I have tried since those that said 'Ug' began to hate those who said 'Nug'. Sadly none have succeeded.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:06 AM

Last century, Gandhi and I repatriated - God knows we were right and the likes of pro-immigrationists, such as Tony Blair, were wrong; my poem on "Land Rights" - http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/476693050


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:43 AM

""Don, yes, the best answer is to break the cycle of hatred but that is far from simple.""

One thing is certain! It won't be brought about by retaliation. The answer is to initiate an open dialogue between our disparate communities and hammer out a way, not to integrate, but to exist side by side with the culturally different.

Integration into a totally different cultural and religious system is an impossibility, as should be obvious to the meanest intellect.

Multiculturalism hasn't worked because those who tried to implement it don't know what it is.

It isn't enough to pay lip service to the idea, without showing the respect and tolerance which alone makes the minority feel at home, welcome and part of the community.

The young people of ethnic minorities are more readily radicalised when they are treated with suspicion and distrust.

And since the 1950s they have been so treated.

It is past time to change that, which should start at primary schools and continue throughout education.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:58 AM

Walkabouts, we always have, and always will be a multicultural nation, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Some of my ancestors were Huguenots and came here seeking safety from persecution. Would you chuck me out of the country? At the time, there were plenty of people like you that would have; they were wrong then and they're wrong now.

My impression of the attackers is of two blokes who have lost all sense of perspective and ended up living a sort of religious Walter Mitty lifestyle. The fact they were gullible enough to believe that a horrific attack like this actually means something beyond the fact they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed due to their lack of reason, and they have no ability to question what they're told in any meaningful fashion says more about their character than the perceived lack of integration on the part of the Muslim community.

That said, you cannot divorce foreign policy from attacks like this, especially when one of the attackers themselves explicitly cite this as a motivator for their actions. This is a matter that grieves the Muslim people that live here, and a great many of us that are not religious too. It's dangerous to deny the actions of the UK government are without consequence, although this fact seems lost on the political classes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:08 AM

The United Nations should finally respect land rights, make all economic/capitalist immigration illegal, and help genuine asylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country. Travel and fair trade are good/imperialism and economic/capitalist immigration are bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:13 AM

>>"Oh dear. What is happening to me? I agree with Fluffy...">>
I knew you couldn't hold out much longer... ;0) xx

"...Mohammed Saleem, who walked with the aid of a stick, was stabbed four time in the back so viciously that the wounds penetrated his chest...."

HATE is HATE...it comes in every colour, in every religion, in every Divisive Hateful Comment. Did WE raise our voices about this? Did WE go to Twitter, as many Muslims are now doing, to say "NOT IN OUR NAME!" ? Or did we simply think nothing, as we were not informed by our Mainstream Media, who are now turning the airwaves into Sounds and Thoughts of Hatred? Did 'Cobra' meet to discuss the death of Mr. Saleem?

FULL REPORT


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:22 AM

Love OUR WORLD being multicultural.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:23 AM

It has not taken long to make this a "Muslim" crime and link it it Immigration.
Last night the Fascists were out on force on the streets of Woolwich milking the incident for all it was worth, and their counterparts here have begun to pop their heads out of their rat-holes already.
Yesterday David Cameron said - rightly - that this was a crime by two sick individuals (or words to that effect).
If this was a "Muslim" crime, then Anders Breivik's massacre was a "Christian" one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:28 AM

Walkabouts Verse....I know you like people to all live in special little 'boxes' from which they must never venture out, but please, wake up and know there is the blood of the world running through your veins...But blackout glasses on, so that you can see NO colours, then just accept PEOPLE as your Brothers and Sisters...

Fuck The Evil Ones, but trust me, MOST people are GOOD and KIND and LOVING.

This world will NEVER go back to your idea of 'each in their own' thank God. EMBRACE the world letting go of all borders, all countries, for trust me, what is coming in the not too distant future, from Mother Nature will have you not giving a fuck about all of this nonsense, whilst possibly ending up begging your Muslim brother or sister for help...

Thank you.

And may I suggest, that as a start on your new path, you fly this flag from your house...


UNITY DEFEATS EVIL - Facebook link


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:29 AM

Many people here don't live in the areas of Britain that are proving problematic. If you face reality you will see that many areas are powder kegs. Watch the interviews with ordinary people on the ground, not the polished politicians or government funded community relations groups. The same message is the repeated time and time again. The change in attitude was reflected recently during council elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:47 AM

Many people here don't live in the areas of Britain that are proving problematic. If you face reality you will see that many areas are powder kegs.

Where do you live, Alan? I live between Keighley and Skipton. I work in Bradford and regularly go out in all three places. Both Keighley and Bradford are amongst those potential 'powder kegs' that you mention and the right wing press are so fond of quoting. Skipton is, possibly, the cultural opposite. Manchester, where I have just moved from and is the home of the unfortunate victim, is multi-cultural to the extreme. The 'change in attitude' of 'ordinary people' you quote is not apparent in any of these areas. The attitude of the ordinary person is just the same. The attitude of the extremist thug is just the same. It is only the press and politicians that are telling us any different.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:58 AM

Dave, I am pleased you find this. As I said yesterday, my brother in law works in the media and his office received an email at 6am what amounted to be a gagging order, who to interview and who not, what to give coverage to and what not, which is why there was no coverage given to buildings attacked the previous evening in three areas of the UK. The reporting of several aspects of this incident still appear artificial and muted. Anyone that thinks there isn't problems in front of us is living in some utopia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: selby
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:20 AM

I do not know where I live in this modern world, but my old fashion values believe nothing makes this heinous crime right.
Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:21 AM

Funny thing multiculturalism. I used to live in rural North Derbyshire with its very low ethnic diversity.

I always will recall my local pub and being a tap room bar fly myself at the time listeningto tthe usual suspects complaining that if "they" would only integrate more, "we" might not be so suspicious. Putting aside who the hell we and they are, I did nod slightly at the idea of self imposed apartheid being an issue.   Then... a black guy walked in and ordered some drinks for his family outside (walking country, lots of ramblers passing through. ) when he walked in the place went silent till he walked out again.

Quite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:52 AM

I don't find that odd at all, Musket. I remember well the first black people I came across - Heather and Christopher Agboola. Can't remember where they came from but they joined our school, an RC primary, when I was about 9 or 10 I suspect - Very early 60's anyway. They were viewed as kids view everything new - With interest but a certain amount of trepidation. You don't say when the incident you refer to happened but if it was many years ago it is probably no indication of today's attitude.

Set me off thinking though. I have been hiking and fell walking for about 35 years. The number of black walkers I have seen can be counted on one hand - Including a very nice chap with his children I met about 4 weeks ago on a bridge over the Leeds/Liverpool canal at Kildwick. I suppose I could have asked him why black people don't seem take to the hills as us mad English do - But he may have took it the wrong way! I think I can also safely say that I have never met any Indian or Arabic looking people on the hills either - But plenty Japanese! I can say the same about our folk club - As far as I can remember only 2 black men and 1 black woman have ever been.

I would certainly never put this down to any hint of insularity on anyone's part - Both activities are as welcoming as any other. Maybe it is a culture difference of some sort? Maybe this is what people do not understand and are, therefore, frightened of? Dunno really. Just speculation and psycho-babble - neither of which do any good so before anyone draws any conclusion from this please note it is just a train of thought :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:11 AM

". . .and help genuine asylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country"

Why shouldn't they come here? Have we become so uncivilised we should turn those in need for our door?

"Love OUR WORLD being multicultural."

If this is implying that our country shouldn't be multicultural then as a statement it's beneath contempt.

What are you suggesting exactly here? How do we achieve a non-multicultural society? Tell me in words a five year old would understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:48 AM

Nic Clegg ( British Deputy Prime Minister) was talking about the killing today on UK tv, and I was fascinated to hear him list the things that - he said - the killers wanted.
He went on about them wanting to spread unrest and stir up tension.
The list went on and on, but what he didn't mention is what we know the killers wanted i.e. for Britain to get out of Iran, Afghanistan etc.
I thought that "big" omission on Clegg's part was very telling!


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:12 AM

DtG "As far as I can remember only 2 black men and 1 black woman have ever been"

I seem to remember that in a wider sense this was not lost on Nick Griffin and other fascists, prompting the setting up of "Folk Against Fascism" in response?

DtG "I have never met any Indian or Arabic looking people on the hills either - But plenty Japanese!"

I used to work with a lot of Japanese, and I asked one of them why there was an apparent fascination among him and his countrymen in horse riding, golf and hillwalking? (we were a 30 min drive from the Beacons). He said that basically it was because they all needed space to perform, and that space was at a premium in Japan.

Apologies to all for adding to "thread creep". If membership was open I would have PM'd you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:30 AM

Gravesend, the home of the original Sikh crash helmet riot, not a problem area? Come off it!

Nice to see you have re-invented the D-notice too. Whatever happened to that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:49 AM

Thread creep is natural Lavengro - I don't think it is an issue. I could be (and probably am) wrong about Nasty Nicks involvement with the folk world but I felt it was more that he believed us Folkies to be rampant nationalists - Which FAF showed we were not!

Tunesmith - I am not at all sure if Britain, or the US for that matter, getting out of Iran and Afghanistan would help at this stage. All criminals would love for the police to get out of their towns. All bullies would love the teachers to get out of schools and those reveling in the chaos created by terrorism would love to be left to their own devices. Now, I have no argument with anyone questioning why and how 'we' were put in charge but that is a different issue. What I am questioning is the wisdom of leaving the innocent people of those countries to the mercies of those who would apply their kind of rule with much harsher force.

I don't necessarily believe that this will happen. The truth is, I don't know but am simply applying the 'better the devil you know' philosophy. I also consider myself lucky to not be in a position where I have to make the decision that would affect millions of lives and, even though I have little time for politicians of all types, I can sympathise with them in this no-win situation.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:00 AM

Tunesmith: "The list went on and on, but what he didn't mention is what we know the killers wanted i.e. for Britain to get out of Iran, Afghanistan etc.
I thought that "big" omission on Clegg's part was very telling!"

Telling but not terribly surprising. It's what all politicians do. Did he go on to tell us that they "hate our freedoms"? Even nicey nicey Lorraine Kelly was keen to talk over Ingrid (can't recall her long surname) the woman who spoke directly with the men, when she repeated the killer's talk about women and children being blown up in Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:05 AM

That we should leave (which we are anyway) is a widely held view.
Anyone can make their views known by writing to MPs and the press, organising petitions and protests and all the other ways that are open to free citizens in a democracy.

Chopping someone up is not a political action.
Indeed we can not be seen to be influenced by such acts, thereby encouraging more of them, so it actually makes it harder to make any change in that direction.

I do not think it is in any way appropriate to discuss British foreign policy as a cause for this act.
Many (most) here are bitterly opposed to foreign policies, but they do not chop people up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:21 AM

I witnessed people spitting on the coffins of British service men and women arriving home from Afghanistan, I am yet to see or hear a public apology for those actions in any hastily assembled self beneficial news conference.

You're engaged in an important conversation, but this one was started by and is hearded along by a puppetmaster - the guest troll who has called himself many things over the years. This week he is "Alan." If it goes pear-shaped at some point, you have been warned.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 12:07 PM

Keith: should Bush and Blair have been entitled to expect no reaction at all within the UK against their reckless, ill-judged and illegal invasion of Iraq? Or is it that you think the resulting catastrophe, in which innocent civilians have died in many scores of thousands, should be met with peaceful protest and petitions? Stu made a good point about this, backup the thread, to which I would add that it is not only muslims who have been aggrieved by UK foreign policy.

I notice Alan did not respond when Alan asked him where he lived. Wherever he lives, DtG, I think you might find his views have been tainted by EDL "thinking." Witness this:

"I don't want to be alarmist, but if such attack operations were to occur again in the UK we could see some group or collective individuals deliver a measured response." Oh no, Alan, not alarmist at all.

Walkabouts: I don't suppose your "nearest safe country" line has anything to do with you thinking there will always be a nearer safe country than the UK? Try selling your selfish philosophy in Jordan (where my partner is right now): a country of little more than a million people which has grown to something like eight million (estimates vary); the increase almost entirely made up of refugees from Palestine, Iraq and now Syria.

I've forgotten who garnered the stats from an Islamic source on terrorist fatalities in 2011, but at a glance they look suspect to me, if only because they imply that very few fatalities if any were down to Shia muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 12:19 PM

It was me, Peter. It was from WikiIslam - The link is above. I am quite happy to accept it may be wrong if someone can prove it but until such a time I can only assume it is true.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 12:56 PM

Keith: should Bush and Blair have been entitled to expect no reaction at all within the UK against their reckless, ill-judged and illegal invasion of Iraq?
Of course not.
No politician in a democracy can or does expect that.
Or is it that you think the resulting catastrophe, in which innocent civilians have died in many scores of thousands, should be met with peaceful protest?

Yes I do.
I am shocked that you don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:26 PM

Perhaps, Keith, you don't have that much affinity, religious or otherwise, with any of those scores of thousands - in fact hundreds of thousands - of innocent Iraqis who died as a result of the Bush-Blair adventure.

For my own part I would probably not have the guts to respond with violence even if relatives of mine were caught up in the collateral. But that's not the point. It should be obvious to anyone that such a monstrous crime would provoke at least a few people to violence. And you are in Cloud Cuckoo land if you think the present level of terrorist threat is unrelated to US and UK interference in Iraq and Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:16 PM

Obviously there is no justification for killing anyone on the streets of London. Or other places.

We shouldn't pull troops out of Afghanistan and stop sending drones to kill people, mostly civilians, because some people take that as a reason for murdering a man here. In London. We should do it because it's wrong for us to continue to kill people ourselves, or to have people doing it in our name.

................

I suggest somene starts up another thread to talk about the stuff this thread has drifted to, which is interesting in itself - and sticj a link to t in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:52 PM

Agree McG.

For my own part I would probably not have the guts to respond with violence even if relatives of mine were caught up in the collateral.

And who would you chop up if you did have the guts?
A young soldier with a loving wife and kid?
A police man or woman?
It should be obvious to anyone that such a monstrous crime would provoke at least a few people to violence
Again, against who?

And you are in Cloud Cuckoo land if you think the present level of terrorist threat is unrelated to US and UK interference in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It maybe this time.
And if they do it because we allow gay marriage or women's rights, should we go back on that?
We are live in a democracy. Not by luck but by bloody sacrifice.
When a government ignores our will we throw them out.
We do not chop up helpless, unarmed young squaddies and pretend we are doing something noble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:14 PM

Both here and in the USA democracy has ceased to function at all well.


But it is worth noting that in a war you kill enemy troops - and even civilians.

Also in a war, people from one country who assist the enemy are called traitors or Quislings.


Nothing at all to do with religion or colour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:50 PM

"When a government ignores our will we throw them out."

And the next government continues to do the same things,

"We do not chop up helpless, unarmed young squaddies and pretend we are doing something noble."

No, instead we kill helpless unarmed people in other ways, far away from where we live, and in far greater numbers. And we call tat a noble enterprise.

Murder is obscene, wherever it is done. There is a duty on those in whose name it is done to denounce it and to repudiate it. That is indeed true of Muslim leaders, to whom it must be appalling to see an unarmed man chopped down by someone calling out the name of Allah - but it is every bit as much true of those of us whose governments involve us in organised slaughter in distant countries.


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Subject: BS: The Woolrich Busker
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:11 PM

I know the busker who watched it all.

"He said they put chalk marks on the ground where the actors, sorry terrorists, involved had to stand.

"He said it was so obviously fake; the police threatened to beat him up unless he moved and kept his mouth shut."

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2013/05/woolwich-false-flag-inside-job-fake.html

Don't know who you are, dude, but intelligence agencies tie up loose ends after operations like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:55 PM

What's with the "loving wife and kid" Keith? Does that make it a worse crime? You think maybe the guy was singled out because he had a loving wife and kid? Well sorry, but I'd bet his attackers didn't give a damn whether the wife was loving or not, or whether there was one child or five.

It often turns out that victims had loving wives and kids, whether they are British soldiers, Iraqi civilians or whatever, and regardless of who kills them. Grow up Keith, and don't be so pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:07 PM

I would like to say something different from all of the previous discussions. Personally, I was amazed at the publicity given to the murderers and their cause, by showing them with bloodstained hands on the front of many of our newspapers. What encouragement to any others with their crazy ideas. I could not buy a newspaper that day, and I think that it would have been better to have a completely blank front page with a line saying that it was with respect to the poor lad that editors were not giving the killers their wished fame and publicity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 03:40 AM

Sorry Peter for being pathetic.

For my own part I would probably not have the guts to respond with violence even if relatives of mine were caught up in the collateral.
And who would you chop up if you did have the guts?
A soldier?
A police man or woman?
It should be obvious to anyone that such a monstrous crime would provoke at least a few people to violence
Again, against who?

And you are in Cloud Cuckoo land if you think the present level of terrorist threat is unrelated to US and UK interference in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It maybe this time.
And if they do it because we allow gay marriage or women's rights, should we go back on that?
We are live in a democracy. Not by luck but by bloody sacrifice.
When a government ignores our will we throw them out.
We do not chop up helpless, unarmed young squaddies and pretend we are doing something noble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 13 - 04:06 AM

No, when a government ignores our will we can no longer throw it out. This government has introduced fixed term parliaments and seriously restricted the obligation of a government to resign if losing a vote of confidence, and MPs frequently renege on the things they promised in order to get elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie)
Date: 25 May 13 - 04:37 AM

This made me stop and think! Never a bad thing.

Woolwich Attack Response - Nabil Goes In

Eddie


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:01 AM

Democracy has not failed because a minority are unable to get their unpopular views reflected in policy.
Extremists have always responded to that fact with violence, but I did not expect to see that response proposed here.

us whose governments involve us in organised slaughter in distant countries
If a majority believed that, the government would fall.
They don't and nor do I.

The slaughter in those lands is overwhelmingly committed by others, who happen to be Muslim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:38 AM

"Woolwich Attack Response - Nabil Goes In"
Absolutely magnificent - and a million miles away from the crocodile tears of the racist morons who openly peddle their vomit-making race and cultural hatred on thread after thread after thread on this forum.
"who happen to be Muslim."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:15 AM

Jim, how would you describe those responsible for the slaughter in Syria?
Lebanon?
Nigeria?
Iraq?
Pakistan?
Egypt?
Afghanistan?
North Africa?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:33 AM

List of Islamist Terror Attacks For the Past 30 Days

Date         Country         City         Killed         Injured         Description
2013.05.24         Pakistan         Peshawar         2         3         Two other people are killed when a suicide bomber targets a rival cleric.
2013.05.23         Pakistan         Quetta         133         16         The Tehreek-i-Taliban "proudly claim" a brutal bombing that leaves over a dozen dead.
2013.05.23         Niger         Agadez         20         16         Suicide bombers detonate in a local army barracks, killing about twenty others.
2013.05.22         Afghanistan         Moqur         4         14         A suicide bomber detonates at a busy market, wiping out four bystanders.
2013.05.22         UK         London         1         0         An off-duty soldier is hacked to death in the name of Allah by two Muslims.
2013.05.21         Pakistan         Quetta         1         0         A Sunni police officer deliberately kills a fellow officer for being a Shiite.
2013.05.21         Iraq         Kirkuk         5         46         Holy warriors send razor-sharp shrapnel into patrons of a cattle market, taking out at least five.
2013.05.21         Iraq         Baghdad         6         18         Six people bleed to death when Mujahideen set off a bomb outside a cafe.
2013.05.21         Iraq         Abu Ghraib         11         21         Eleven people at a mosque bleed out following a bombing by Religion of Peace rivals.
2013.05.20         Iraq         Samarrah         8         15         Eight Shia pilgrims are sent straight to Allah by Sunni car bombers.
2013.05.20         Iraq         Anbar         13         0         Thirteen innocent kidnap victims are brutally executed by religious militants.
2013.05.20         Dagestan         Makhachkala         4         44         Four people are killed when Jihadists set off a bomb in front of a courthouse.
2013.05.20         Afghanistan         Baghlan         14         11         A Fedayeen suicide bomber murders fourteen people.
2013.05.20         Pakistan         Bajour         1         0         Fundamentalists fire on a polio team, killing a guard.
2013.05.20         Iraq         Hillah         9         26         Nine people are cut down by Religion of Peace rivals while leaving a mosque.
2013.05.20         Iraq         Baghdad         12         20         A dozen Shiites are torn to shreds by sectarian bombers at a market.
2013.05.19         Tunisia         Tunis         0         11         Eleven policemen are injured when Salafists throw petrol bombs at them.
2013.05.19         Lebanon         Tripoli         2         6         A boy is among two people killed during a sectarian clash between Sunni and Shia.
2013.05.19         Pakistan         Basya Khel         1         5         A bomb targeting children leaves one dead.
2013.05.19         Iraq         Haditha         8         0         Al-Qaeda attack a police station and kill eight occupants.
2013.05.19         Iraq         Rawa         3         2         Islamic 'insurgents' gun down three local cops in cold blood.
2013.05.19         Iraq         Baghdad         2         5         Religious radicals open fire on a group of men playing checkers, killing two.
2013.05.19         Iraq         Baqubah         2         0         Terrorists kill and man and his wife in their home.
2013.05.19         Afghanistan         Moqor         6         4         Six Afghans lose their lives to a Taliban ambush.
2013.05.18         Iraq         Latifiya         5         10         Jihad car bombers take out ten Iraqis.
2013.05.18         Afghanistan         Khak-e-Safid         1         0         A local policeman is gunned down in his driveway by Sunni hardliners.
2013.05.18         Iraq         Garma         4         0         al-Qaeda gunmen take down four Iraqis.
2013.05.18         Iraq         Basra         1         0         A Shia cleric is shot to death by Religion of Peace rivals.
2013.05.18         Iraq         Baghdad         5         0         Mujahideen enter a home and slaughter five family members, including two children ages 8 and 10.
2013.05.18         Thailand         Narathiwat         1         4         One person bleeds to death after Muslim 'separatists' bomb a hotel.
2013.05.18         India         Kupwara         1         0         Muslim militants from Pakistan shoot an Indian border guard to death.
2013.05.18         Syria         Damascus         3         5         Terrorists detonate a car bomb near a school, killing three people.
2013.05.18         Afghanistan         Bakwa         4         0         Taliban militants murder four Afghan soldiers with a bomb.
2013.05.17         Iraq         Baqubah         43         57         A double bomb attack on a Sunni mosque leaves over forty worshippers dead.
2013.05.17         Iraq         Baghdad         22         57         al-Qaeda bombers take down two dozen Iraqis with three bombs.
2013.05.17         Pakistan         Baz Darrah         21         120         Twenty-one worshippers at two mosques are sent straight to Allah by Religion of Peace rivals.
2013.05.17         Afghanistan         Kandahar         9         70         Islamic hardliners bomb a family restaurant, killing nine innocents.
2013.05.17         Yemen         Mukalla         1         0         A security officer is assassinated by al-Qaeda gunmen on a motorcycle.
2013.05.17         Iraq         Fallujah         2         8         Terrorists bomb a coffee shop, killing two patrons.
2013.05.17         Egypt         Alexandria         1         3         A Copt is killed during an assault by a Muslim bomb on a church.
2013.05.17         Pakistan         Mianwali         2         0         A faith healer and his wife are brutally murdered in their home by suspected fundamentalists.
2013.05.17         Iraq         Madain         8         25         Eight mourners at a funeral are disassembled by sectarian bombers.
2013.05.16         Pakistan         Mingora         2         1         A child activist and a peace committee member are shot by the Taliban in targeted attacks.
2013.05.16         Pakistan         Matani         5         6         Religious extremists open fire a convoy of local combat engineers, killing five.
2013.05.16         Pakistan         Peshawar         2         0         Two truck drivers are shot to death by Muslim extremists.
2013.05.16         Iraq         Kirkuk         12         18         A dozen people are torn to shreds when a suicide bomber self-detonates at a Shia mosque.
2013.05.16         Afghanistan         Kabul         15         40         A dedicated Sunni blows himself up in a city street, exterminating fifteen souls, including two children
2013.05.16         Iraq         Kamaliya         3         14         Three civilians are laid out by a Mujahideen car bomb at a taxi stand.
2013.05.16         Iraq         Sadr City         9         16         A 7-year-old child is among nine killed when Sunnis bomb a bus stop in a Shia neighborhood.
2013.05.16         Somalia         Gof Gadud         5         10         An al-Shabaab ambush leaves five dead.
2013.05.15         Thailand         Pattani         1         0         Muslim 'insurgents' shoot a 50-year-old villager to death.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Baghdad         14         68         At least five al-Qaeda bombs targeting Shiites leave a dozen dead and many more in agony.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Sadr City         7         33         Sunnis set off three car bombs in Shia neighborhoods, leaving seven dead.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Kadhimiya         2         9         Two people are taken out by Jihad car bombers.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Kirkuk         12         23         Two Jihad car bombings leave a dozen Iraqis dead.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Abu Ghraib         2         0         Two brothers are taken from their home and slain execution style by al-Qaeda.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         A suicide bomber kills two Iraqis.
2013.05.14         Iraq         Fallujah         2         0         al-Qaeda militants shoot two brothers to death.
2013.05.14         Iraq         Mosul         1         14         A child is taken out by Mujahid car bombers.
2013.05.14         Iraq         Baghdad         12         0         Fundamentalists execute a dozen people at a series of shops selling alcohol.
2013.05.14         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         Religion of Peace activists shoot a pastor to death in his home.
2013.05.14         Afghanistan         Garmsir         3         7         Children are among the casualties when Sunni radicals set off a motorcycle bomb at a market.
2013.05.14         Syria         Raqqa         3         0         Video surfaces of the cold-blooded execution of three captives by al-Nusra Islamists.
2013.05.14         Syria         Deir al-Zor         11         0         al-Nusra Islamists summarily execute eleven captives on video while praising Allah.
2013.05.13         Libya         Benghazi         15         41         Islamists are thought responsible for a car bomb blast at a hospital that leaves over a dozen dead, including two children.
2013.05.13         Afghanistan         Helmand         3         0         Three Georgian soldiers are killed when a suicide truck bomber plows into their base.
2013.05.13         Pakistan         Bara         1         8         Taliban militants take out a child with a rocket.
2013.05.13         Iraq         Ramadi         3         7         A Holy Warrior detonates a suicide vest, killing three Iraqis.
2013.05.13         Afghanistan         Arghistan         10         12         Women and children are among ten civilians ripped to shreds by a bomb planted by religious radicals.
2013.05.12         Pakistan         Muslim Colony         1         0         A 19-year-old woman is strangled by her conservative family for getting pregnant.
2013.05.12         Pakistan         Quetta         8         97         A child is among eight people blown to bits by a Lashkar-e-Jhangvi suicide car bomber.
2013.05.12         Iraq         Basra         1         0         Religion of Peace rivals gun down a cleric outside his mosque.
2013.05.12         Iraq         Mosul         5         0         Five suspected al-Qaeda victims are handcuffed and shot in the back of the head.
2013.05.12         Iraq         Baghdad         4         0         Terrorists shoot four women to death in their own home.
2013.05.12         Iraq         Mishahada         3         0         Mujahideen murder three men walking by the side of the road.
2013.05.11         Pakistan         Manghopir         2         3         A suicide bomber sends two souls to Allah.
2013.05.11         Pakistan         Karachi         11         40         Children are among the casualties when Islamists set off a bomb blast targeting voters.
2013.05.11         Pakistan         Peshawar         1         10         A bomb outside a polling station leaves one dead.
2013.05.11         Iraq         Nineveh         3         21         A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills two women and a child.
2013.05.11         Iraq         Shurqat         3         19         Three people are incinerated by a suicide truck bomber.
2013.05.11         Pakistan         Panj Khata         1         35         A 10-year-old boy is taken out by a bomb planted by Sunni hardliners.
2013.05.11         Kenya         Mandera         2         4         Islamists throw a grenade at a group of Kenyans and then shoot them in the head.
2013.05.11         Afghanistan         Nuristan         1         0         A man is murdered in his own home by the Taliban.
2013.05.10         Pakistan         Kurram         3         0         The Taliban gun down three security personnel.
2013.05.10         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         Lashkar-e-Jhagvi kidnap and murder a Shiite civilian.
2013.05.10         India         Rajpora         1         0         A farmer is murdered inside his home by Muslim militants.
2013.05.10         Iraq         al-Dhera         1         5         A 2-year-old child is pulled into pieces by Mujahid bombers.
2013.05.10         India         Lassipora         1         0         An imam is shot to death outside his mosque by Religion of Peace rivals.
2013.05.10         Iraq         Mahaweel         3         7         Religion of Peace rivals bomb a mosque, killing three worshippers.
2013.05.10         Pakistan         Miranshah         4         21         Religious fanatics take out four locals with a bomb blast at a market.
2013.05.10         India         Pulwama         1         0         Hizb-ul-Mujahideen gun down a police officer.
2013.05.09         Pakistan         Torghar         6         10         A half-dozen people are disassembled by Islamic bombers.
2013.05.09         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         Sipah-e-Sahaba gunmen murder a 35-year-old Shiite.
2013.05.09         Iraq         Baghdad         3         2         Terrorists kill three university students with a bomb placed on a bus.
2013.05.09         Yemen         Lahij         1         0         al-Qaeda gunmen take down a local traffic cop.
2013.05.09         Egypt         Cairo         0         1         An American professor is stabbed five times by a well-educated terrorist.
2013.05.09         Iraq         Hawija         1         11         al-Qaeda bombers take out an Iraqi child.
2013.05.09         Pakistan         Multan         1         8         Fundamentalists are suspected of opening fire on a political rally, killing one.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Abu Ghraib         2         3         Religion of Peace rivals set off an IED at a mosque that leaves two dead, including the imam.
2013.05.08         Pakistan         Beaver Ridge WV Canaan         2         23         A woman is among two people blown away by a Shahid suicide bomber.
2013.05.08         Pakistan         Hangu         2         18         Women and children are among the casualties when Islamic militants set off a bomb at a market.
2013.05.08         Thailand         Narathiwat         1         1         A 45-year-old woman is shot to death by Muslim terrorists.
2013.05.08         Afghanistan         Kandahar         3         0         At least three drivers are killed by Taliban gunmen at a protest.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Fallujah         3         2         al-Qaeda gunmen open fire on police officers at a checkpoint, killing two.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Mosul         1         4         A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills a civilian.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Salaheddin         1         1         A suicide bomber manages to kill one other person.
2013.05.08         Yemen         Lahij         3         0         Three men in a car are wasted by al-Qaeda gunmen.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Kirkuk         2         49         Two suicide bombers take down two Iraqis and injure about fifty others.
2013.05.07         Nigeria         Bama         26         0         Twenty-six people, including three children, are burnt alive as Islamists set fire to a police barracks.
2013.05.07         Afghanistan         Ghazni         4         1         Taliban bombers send four Afghan cops to Allah.
2013.05.07         Nigeria         Bama         14         0         Boko Haram attack a prison housing Islamist prisoners, killing fourteen guards.
2013.05.07         Algeria         Keddara         2         0         Two guards at a quarry are murdered by Islamic fundamentalists.
2013.05.07         Pakistan         Lower Dir         5         0         Five people are killed in a Taliban attack on a secular party official.
2013.05.07         Nigeria         Bale         1         0         Boko Haram murder a man in front of his wives and children.
2013.05.07         Thailand         Pattani         1         0         Militant Muslims shoot a clerk to death at a restaurant.
2013.05.07         Pakistan         Korangi         2         0         Two activists of a secular-leaning party are assassinated by religious fundamentalists.
2013.05.07         Pakistan         Hangu         12         35         At least a dozen people are obliterate when a Fedayeen suicide bomber detonates at an election rally.
2013.05.07         France         Roussillon         0         1         A Muslim who had recently returned from the Haj shouts 'Allah Akbar' and stabs a police officer at random.
2013.05.06         Thailand         Narathiwat         1         0         Muslim militants gun down a 62-year-old man on his way home from work.
2013.05.06         Bangladesh         Kanchpur         4         0         Four security officials are beaten to death by anti-blasphemy activists.
2013.05.06         Philippines         Basilan         2         0         An Abu Sayyaf ambush leaves two dead.
2013.05.06         Iraq         Mosul         5         0         Two bombings, one by a Shahid, leave five Iraqis dead.
2013.05.06         Iraq         Baghdad         6         13         Mujahideen roll grenades into a rival mosque, sending at least six worshippers straight to Allah.
2013.05.06         Syria         al-Quasair         20         0         Hezbollah is accused of butchering twenty people, mostly women and children, with knives.
2013.05.06         Iraq         Baghdad         7         26         Jihadi car bombers take out seven Iraqis near a restaurant.
2013.05.06         Pakistan         Peshawar         25         64         A Shahid suicide bomber detonates at an election rally, slaughtering over two dozen innocents.
2013.05.06         Bangladesh         Motijheel         1         0         A policeman is hacked to death by Islamists chanting 'death to those who insult Allah'.
2013.05.05         Iraq         Mahmoudiya         2         0         Mujahideen invade a home and shoot a man and his son to death.
2013.05.05         Iraq         Baghdad         1         6         Muslims set off a bomb at a rival mosque, killing a passerby.
2013.05.05         Pakistan         Sibi         4         7         The Tehrik-i-Taliban is suspected of attacking the convoy of a secular political candidate, killing four.
2013.05.05         Egypt         al-Arish         1         0         Four fundamentalists shoot a bartender to death for serving alcohol.
2013.05.05         Somalia         Mogadishu         11         20         Eleven people are ripped to pieces by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
2013.05.05         Bangladesh         Dhaka         4         24         At least four civilians are killed by a Hefajat-e-Islam 'siege'.
2013.05.05         Iraq         Jamiyah         3         13         Three patrons are killed by a Fundamentalist bomb at an Internet cafe.
2013.05.05         Somalia         Buulo Sheekh         2         0         A 95-year-old man and his grandson are murdered in their home by al-Shabaab activists.
2013.05.05         Afghanistan         Korghan         4         5         Sunni hardliners dismantle four civilians with a roadside bomb.
2013.05.05         Thailand         Narathiwat         2         3         Two Thais are killed by a Muslim 'separatist' bomb.
2013.05.05         Pakistan         Orangi         5         0         A 9-year-old girl and three women are among five shot to death during an honor killing at a brothel.
2013.05.05         Nigeria         Njilan         10         0         Islamic extremists stage a Sunday morning attack on a church and a nearby cattle market, killing at least ten.
2013.05.04         Thailand         Narathiwat         1         0         A 59-year-old truck driver is murdered by Muslim militants.
2013.05.04         Thailand         Pattani         1         0         Muslim terrorists shoot a 50-year-old civilian twice in the head.
2013.05.04         Mali         Gao         2         4         Two local soldiers are taken out by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
2013.05.04         Pakistan         Karachi         3         40         Children are among the casualties when Religion of Peace activists blow up a secular-leaning party office.
2013.05.04         Afghanistan         Farah         2         0         Two American trainers are murdered by a Taliban in uniform.
2013.05.04         Nigeria         Ngamdu         4         0         Religion of Peace activists tie up four villagers and cut their throats.
2013.05.03         Pakistan         Karachi         2         0         A 3-year-old boy and his father are brutally gunned down by the Tehreek-e-Taliban.
2013.05.03         Syria         Banias         145         0         Thirty-four children and forty women are among one-hundred forty-five victims of a sectarian massacre.
2013.05.03         Iraq         Baghdad         7         30         Sectarian Jihadis detonate a bomb at a rival mosque, killing seven worshippers.
2013.05.03         Pakistan         Islamabad         1         0         The prosecutor investigating a prominent assassination by terrorists is himself gunned down on his way home.
2013.05.02         Afghanistan         Barg-e-Matal         1         0         An Afghan policeman is picked off by a Taliban sniper.
2013.05.02         Syria         Bayda         51         0         Fifty-one villagers are slaughtered because of their sectarian status according to a human rights group.
2013.05.02         Thailand         Pattani         6         0         Muslim 'insurgents' murder a 3-year-old boy and five others when they fire into a Buddhist convenience store.
2013.05.02         Afghanistan         Pula-i- Alam         8         0         Sunni hardliners murder eight local cops with a roadside bomb.
2013.05.02         Pakistan         Manghopir         2         0         Two watchmen at a private school are murdered after threats from militants.
2013.05.02         Egypt         Qattawiya         1         0         A Facebook user is shot to death by the Muslim Brotherhood after criticizing the group.
2013.05.02         Iraq         Albu Faraj         1         4         A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills one other person.
2013.05.01         Iraq         Baji         5         0         Five police officers are taken down by an al-Qaeda blast.
2013.05.01         Afghanistan         Gereshk         3         4         The Taliban murder a peace envoy and two guards.
2013.05.01         Syria         Damascus         1         15         Sunni terrorists are blamed for a car bomb that kills at least one.
2013.05.01         Iraq         Garma         6         15         A suicide bomber detonates in a crowd, slaughtering at least a half-dozen.
2013.05.01         Pakistan         Karachi         2         0         Two Shiites are assassinated by Sipah-e-Sahaba terrorists.
2013.05.01         Iraq         Baquba         3         11         Mujahideen bomb a restaurant and murder a rival cleric in separate attacks.
2013.05.01         Nigeria         Gashua         7         0         Five civilians are among seven shot to death by Islamic extremists.
2013.05.01         Dagestan         Makhachkala         2         2         Two teens are killed by a bomb planted by Jihadis outside a store that refused to pay zakat.
2013.05.01         Iraq         Ramadi         2         10         Two Iraqis bleed to death following a shrapnel bombing by 'insurgents'
2013.05.01         Iraq         Hussainya         4         12         A brutal Sunni car bomb in a Shia suburb leaves four residents dead.
2013.04.30         Syria         Marjeh         14         103         Terrorists bomb a commercial district, killing over a dozen.
2013.04.30         Tunisia         Mount Chaambi         0         6         A half-dozen local soldiers and police are injured when Islamists set off land mines.
2013.04.30         Israel         Tapuah         1         0         A Palestinian stabs a 31-year-old Jewish father of five to death in an unprovoked attack at a bus stop.
2013.04.30         Jordan         Amman         1         0         A young woman is stabbed 20 times and beheaded by her brother after 'dishonoring' the family.
2013.04.30         Iraq         Baghdad         4         20         Religion of Peace rivals bomb a Sunni mosque, killing four worshippers.
2013.04.30         Pakistan         Karachi         2         0         Muslim extremists shoot two liberal party workers to death.
2013.04.30         Iraq         Sulaiman Beg         2         5         A Shahid suicide bomber takes two Iraqis with him.
2013.04.29         Syria         Damascus         6         0         Six bystanders are laid out by a suspected al-Nusra car bomb.
2013.04.29         Nigeria         Ringim         5         0         Sharia proponents send rocket-propelled grenades into a bank and police station, killing five.
2013.04.29         Pakistan         Charsadda         1         15         Children are among the casualties of a suspected Islamist bombing.
2013.04.29         Iraq         Mahmoudiya         6         14         Sunni radicals detonate a car bomb in a Shia neighborhood, sending a half dozen resident to Allah.
2013.04.29         Iraq         Karbala         3         14         Three Shia pilgrims are brought down by and al-Qaeda bomb.
2013.04.29         Iraq         Diwaniyah         9         23         Nine Iraqis at a restaurant are exterminated by al-Qaeda car bombers.
2013.04.29         Iraq         Amarah         18         42         Eighteen Shiites standing in a market are ripped to pieces by Sunni bombers.
2013.04.29         Pakistan         Adamkot         3         0         Religious radicals kidnap and execute three local security personnel.
2013.04.29         Syria         Nubbol         20         0         Twenty Shiite adults are reportedly abducted and beheaded by Sunni militia.
2013.04.29         Pakistan         Peshawar         9         60         Sunni hardliners plant a bomb on a motorcycle that kills at least nine people waiting for a bus.
2013.04.28         Pakistan         Peshawar         3         12         Three secular activists bleed to death from a bombing attack by religious radicals.
2013.04.28         Pakistan         Parachinar         1         3         Sipah-e-Sahaba terrorists set off a bomb outside a sports stadium in a Shiite area, killing one.
2013.04.28         Bangladesh         Bakhrabaj         1         0         Islami Chhatra Shibir terrorists cut the throat of a secular youth leader.
2013.04.28         Algeria         Tipaza         3         0         Armed Islamists mow down three police volunteers by the side of the road.
2013.04.28         Pakistan         Swabi         2         16         A 7-year-old girl is among two people disassembled by Tehreek-e-Taliban bombers.
2013.04.28         Bangladesh         Umarpur         3         50         Jamaat-e-Islami attack participants at a meeting of a secular-leaning political party, killing three.
2013.04.28         Philippines         Ubit         2         0         Abu Sayyaf militants murder two local soldiers.
2013.04.28         Afghanistan         Ghazni         3         2         Three local policemen are murdered by Taliban bombers.
2013.04.28         Pakistan         Kohat         6         10         Fundamentalists bomb the headquarters of a left-leaning political party, killing six.
2013.04.27         Pakistan         Karachi         2         10         Islamic fundamentalists car bomb a secular party office ahead of an election.
2013.04.27         Pakistan         Karachi         1         1         Sectarian Jihadis gun down a Shiite.
2013.04.27         Yemen         Radda         6         0         Six Yemenis are killed during an al-Qaeda attack.
2013.04.27         Thailand         Pattani         1         2         Muslim 'separatists' shoot a man to death on his way to work.
2013.04.26         Pakistan         Karachi         11         45         Children are among the casualties when fundamentalists detonate a bomb at the office of a moderate political party.
2013.04.26         Syria         Damascus         4         12         al-Nusra Islamists send mortars into a residential area, killing four.
2013.04.26         Iraq         Mahmoudiya         3         4         Three Iraqis are take out by an IED.
2013.04.26         Afghanistan         Kandahar         45         10         The Taliban bomb a tanker which is then run into by a bus, killing forty-five passengers.
2013.04.26         India         Haigam         4         0         Four policemen are gunned down in cold blood by Islamic terrorists.
2013.04.26         Iraq         Baghdad         8         36         Bombs planted by sectarian rivals outside mosques kill eight worshippers.
2013.04.26         Iraq         Sadr City         5         19         Five people are disassembled by a Mujahid bomb at a motorcycle shop.
2013.04.26         Iraq         Baghdad         7         13         Jihadis bomb a shopping center killing seven patrons.
2013.04.26         Iraq         Tikrit         5         0         Five volunteers manning a checkpoint are machine-gunned by al-Qaeda.
2013.04.25         Iraq         Najaf         4         22         Muslim bombers kill four people at a bus stop.
2013.04.25         Afghanistan         Kunduz         6         0         Six local cops are drugged and shot to death by the Taliban.
2013.04.25         Pakistan         Karachi         6         13         The Taliban bomb the offices of a secular-leaning political party, killing at six.
2013.04.25         Nigeria         Gashua         11         17         Eleven people are killed in two Boko Haram attacks.
2013.04.25         Pakistan         Quetta         1         1         The Tehreek-e-Taliban is suspected of a grenade attack that leaves one person dead.
2013.04.25         Somalia         Mogadishu         1         0         A chief prosecutor is assassinated by suspected al-Shabaab.
2013.04.25         Pakistan         Safora Goth         1         0         A secular political worker is murdered by Tehreek-e-Taliban.
2013.04.25         Bangladesh         Satkania         1         12         A young girl is killed during a clash between two Islamic student groups.
2013.04.24         Iraq         Baghdad         8         23         Eight Shiites at a bus stop are obliterated by Sunni bombers.
2013.04.24         Afghanistan         Karak         2         0         Two local police officers are killed during a Taliban assault on a station.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:53 AM

Jim, it has been suggested that whenever you make that personal attack on me instead of discussing the issues, I make this statement.

'Jim, I fully accept that you think I am a racist, and as such worthy of abuse. This is something I dispute and is vehemently denied by Mudcatters who have met me personally; my family; the members of my church, and my community.

That aside, these are some opinions I wish to express and some facts I wish to highlight and discuss on this forum.

Therefore can we take your opinion of me personally as a given, and have a debate as to what I have to say, nonetheless.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:21 AM

Fat chance, Keith. Jim's infallible instamatic racist-spotter-equipment goes into auto-action with no interference from his intellect and his fingers just instinctively type away without his consciousness being remotely engaged. So just ignore...

~M~

Oh hell: I made a vow was going to stay off this thread; but Jim's tic·tic·tics have something of a similar effect on me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:31 AM

""As I said yesterday, my brother in law works in the media and his office received an email at 6am what amounted to be a gagging order, who to interview and who not, what to give coverage to and what not, which is why there was no coverage given to buildings attacked the previous evening in three areas of the UK.""

What a pity we can't apply a gagging order to the anonymous racist trolls who periodically crawl out of the woodwork here.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:42 AM

""Perhaps, Keith, you don't have that much affinity, religious or otherwise, with any of those scores of thousands - in fact hundreds of thousands - of innocent Iraqis who died as a result of the Bush-Blair adventure.""

That's an understatement Peter!

Any comment favourable to Muslims initiates a knee jerk that could send his footwear into orbit.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:51 AM

So Don, do you also believe that the killing was an understandable response to British crimes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:00 AM

Hey Bobad - ya got a list of innocent civilians killed in Iraq & Afghanistan/Pakistan for the same calendar period?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:03 AM

"Jim, how would you describe those responsible for the slaughter in Syria?"
A Syrian despotic regime, once a valued trading partner and ally of Britain - how would you describe them (always bearing in mind that you suggested they be armed with "riot control equipment" in order to get the opposition tucked safely in their torture cells and out of harm's way)?
There is about as much significance that the people of Afghanistan or any of the places you mentioned are "Muslims" as it is that the people who are in there with their drones, helicopters and sophisticated weaponry are overwhelmingly "Christians" - the only people who can possibly have any interest in such insignificant details are those who would build a wall between anybody whose culture. colour or nationality is in any way different than our own.
What is significant is that those who have been sent to fight in these countries (including the poor bastard who was hacked to death), comes from oil wealthy and powerful oil-dependent countries who have seen fit to destabilise that part of the world to ensure that the oil keeps coming - even to the extent of inventing non-existent "weapons of mass destruction" to justify that destabilisation.
There is something more than a little revolting about those who would use the body of a freshly-murdered human being as a soapbox to promote race and culture hatred.
Said what I have to say - carry on hating!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:06 AM

"comes from oil wealthy and powerful oil-dependent countries "
Should read "wealthy, powerful and oil dependent countries" - sorry
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:51 AM

Greg,the calendar period was the last 30 days, most of those on Bobad's list were indeed innocent civilians, and a list of those killed by British or even Western forces would be very short indeed.

Jim, there IS significance in the religion of those involved in the slaughter because it is mostly Sunni/Shia sectarianism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:55 AM

Keith, I would have thought even you could understand what happened at Woolwich. Two guys with their heads full of crazy ideology murdered a soldier in some kind of desperate retaliation for what British soldiers have been doing elsewhere. Understanding does not mean condoning.

You obviously thought one of your posts was worth repeating, feeble as it was. Within it, again repetitiously, you wanted to know whom I would expect to be on the receiving end of any violent response provoked by violent American-British invasions. I didn't answer because the answer was obvious, but let me spell it out: I don't know. Often British and American intelligence agencies don't know, which is why it is hard to defend against. People who, rightly or wrongly, feel desperate can be very unpredictable.

And by the way, the assault on Iraq was opposed by a majority in the UK and it provoked the biggest demonstration ever in the UK. We didn't throw out the government, either then or at the subsequent general election. That's no big deal if our representative democracy over-rides the popular mood on (say) dog-licensing or daylight saving. But when it results in vast numbers of needless fatalities and the massive destabilising of a whole region, expect some blowback, both legitimate and illegitimate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:06 AM

Peter, I am in favour of peaceful protest.
You say that is not enough.
I think that is wrong and I am sure you are in a small minority.

Anyone with strong feelings against the last Gulf war could have voted Lib Dem who contested every seat on an anti-war platform.
Very few did.
That is democracy.
You want something different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:52 AM

Where did I say peaceful protest is not enough Keith? You think I will quarrel if the Woolwich Michaels are convicted? Incidentqlly I see thqt crimes against muslims have increased in recent days. Again not surprising, but equally wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:58 AM

Or is it that you think the resulting catastrophe, in which innocent civilians have died in many scores of thousands, should be met with peaceful protest?
Yes I do.
I am shocked that you don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 11:22 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War
Speaks for itself really!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:11 PM

""So Don, do you also believe that the killing was an understandable response to British crimes?""

NO, I DO NOT!

Neither do I believe, as so many of our more detestable anonymous arseholes, that the actions of two demented bigots are in any way representative of the vast majority of British Muslims.

Do YOU?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:16 PM

What does it speak Jim?
I very much doubt that anyone reading that would learn anything new.
Does it say anything at all about an unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:19 PM

Neither do I believe, as so many of our more detestable anonymous arseholes, that the actions of two demented bigots are in any way representative of the vast majority of British Muslims.

Do YOU?


No, but a not insignificant minority ("thousands").


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:22 PM

""and a list of those killed by British or even Western forces would be very short indeed.""

Take it a step further and consider how that list will expand, if you examine the true figures for civilian casualties as a direct or indirect result of Western (including UK) forces action in other countries, instead of staying home and defending what is our country.

Try to think honestly, without your customary Muslim = Evil filter in place.

Whether others kill more, or fewer, civilians is irrelevant. It does not excuse us if we kill fewer, nor them if we kill more.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:52 PM

"What does it speak Jim?"
It "speaks" (whatever that particular piece of gibberish means), that worldwide democratic opposition to an illegal war doesn't stand fiddler's fart of a chance when it clashes with the interests of multinationals.
Your taking over of a thread once again to trot out the party line "speaks" that you have no intention of desisting from using the body of a barely cold victim of a vicious murder as a platform for your Islamophobic rant.
Nothing changes.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 01:06 PM

I look forward with interest to see how you defend the establishment if it turns out to be true that MI5 attempted to recruit one of the killers - a Muslim plot, no doubt!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 01:13 PM

I think it probably true Jim.
I think it a sensible policy to employ informers.

Don, do you believe our forces are involved in indiscriminate killing.
You know about British rules of engagement?
You know our soldiers are instructed in legal and illegal military actions, that they must refuse to obey illegal orders and that they are held accountable for every round fired?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 01:29 PM

""No, but a not insignificant minority ("thousands").""

Based on what?..........Your vast knowledge of the Muslim community in Britain?

Well, it's always good to have confirmation of your idea of "balance"!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 01:53 PM

""Don, do you believe our forces are involved in indiscriminate killing.""

Don't be a complete prat. You know very well I mean nothing of the sort.

I referred to indirect as well as direct killings.

Can you deny that many fewer Iraqis would ghave been killed in internal and insurgent actions, had we and the US minded our own affairs.

Ditto, Afghanistan!

The place for a National Defensive force, is within its own borders, and that applies equally to the US and Britain, as to Israel and its neighbours.

A common factor in the History which BB claims we don't understand, is that there is always resistance to an occupying force, and in recent history that has incuded violent resistance in the occupyer's homeland.

It is, or should be, a no brainer, except in the minds of those who believe that only their own side should be allowed to fight for their homeland.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 02:04 PM

For those, like yourself, who see only the actions of your own side as justified, there is only one side to any argument.

Your comments prove this daily.

Until you can see, recognise and understand (without condoning) the other side of the argument, you are simply not worth talking to, or for that matter, listening to.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Guest balance
Date: 25 May 13 - 02:53 PM

Has anyone on this thread mentioned that the poor fellow hacked to death was a machine gunner in Afghanistan? I wonder if he ever shot anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 02:53 PM

Based on what?..........
A former MI5 chief on R4 pm prog said "thousands" were known to them.
MI5 has since said about 2000.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 04:19 PM

Balance, they are only allowed to engage to save life.
If he did it would only be active armed combatants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: mayomick
Date: 25 May 13 - 04:53 PM

I've heard people talk about the police's slow response , but didn't this happen about 200 yards from an army barracks ?It seems odd that somebody in the army didn't know what was happening a couple of minutes walk away. Wouldn't streets so close to a barracks be carefully monitored by cctv?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:25 PM

The army has already anticipated that point, mayomick; pointing out that, though aware of what was occurring, they are/were not authorised to make armed intervention in such a civilian context, and could not engage unarmed against armed criminals: whereas armed police were empowered to do so, subject to their own well-understood rules of engagement.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: mayomick
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:03 PM

So they were aware that one of their own people had just been butchered and left it to the police to arrive fifteen minutes later. I can understand rules are rules and they wouldn't perhaps have known whether the men had guns or not. All the same it sounds a bit cowardly. I'd have expected a hundred soldiers -armed or unarmed - to come running out of the barracks and confront the killers . The woman who jumped off the bus to give assistance and then remonstrated with the murderers had more guts. (Having said that , I don't know how much of a hero I would be myself in the same situation !)


There was a possible copycat attack in Paris today , according to Rte News. "A French soldier patrolling a business neighbourhood west of Paris has been stabbed in the neck and injured by a man who fled the scene and is being sought by police, President Francois Hollande said."


http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0525/452666-french-soldier-injured-in-paris-knife-attack/


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:53 PM

So, you think that the root cause of Islamist Jihadism is Israel and the West's interference in Islamic countries, well think again:

The ambassador answered us that [their right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.

The above passage is not a reference to a declaration by al Qaeda or some Iranian fatwa. They are the words of Thomas Jefferson, then the U.S. ambassador to France, reporting to Secretary of State John Jay a conversation he'd had with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, Tripoli's envoy to London, in 1786 -- more than two and a quarter centuries ago.

That is before al Qaeda and the Taliban, before the creation of Israel or the Arab-Israeli conflict, before Khomeini, before Saudi Arabia, before drones, before most Americans even knew what jihad or Islam was, and, most importantly, well before the United States had engaged in a single military incursion overseas or even had an established foreign policy.

An Atheist Muslim's Perspective on the 'Root Causes' of Islamist Jihadism and the Politics of Islamophobia


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:14 PM

I see we've come back again, one more time, to the oxymoronic Muslim Atheist and a three-hundred year quotation that has somewhat less than zero relevance in today's world.

It was bullshit first time around, and its bullshit still, as will it be the next time you repeat it.

How many 18th Century Christian[sic]quotations expressing the same ideas would you like to have posted, Bobad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:59 PM

Fox News is crowing about the anti Muslim demonstrations in England right now. Revolting!

Well, of course it is, it's Fox News.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:09 AM

The police think there was a wider conspiracy, and have arrested three more men, two of whom had to be tasered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:24 AM

""A former MI5 chief on R4 pm prog said "thousands" were known to them.
MI5 has since said about 2000.
""

And the Home Secretary said, on BBC TV this morning, that the figure of "thousands" referred to all those currently known to have the "potential to become radicalised".

You understand the word "potential"?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:33 AM

""I'd have expected a hundred soldiers -armed or unarmed - to come running out of the barracks and confront the killers .""

Which is exactly the difference which military training makes. Those soldiers obeyed the rules because that is what they are trained to do.

Had they followed their instincts, it would have made no difference for the victim, and given the suicidal fervour of the killers, we would now be talking about six or more dead soldiers and probably the women tending to the victim as well.

I wondered how long it would take for some know nothing clown to start yakking about cowardice.

The point is that our armed forces are strictly debarred from taking military action in civil matters, and rightly so.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:44 AM

""That is before al Qaeda and the Taliban, before the creation of Israel or the Arab-Israeli conflict, before Khomeini, before Saudi Arabia, before drones, before most Americans even knew what jihad or Islam was, and, most importantly, well before the United States had engaged in a single military incursion overseas or even had an established foreign policy.""

Firstly, the fact that one idiot should grossly misquote the Q'ran in a fit of boastful sabre rattling two centuries ago is of little interest.

Secondly, if you really believe that Western countries had not interfered in the Islamic world of that era and before, you are desperately in need of some basic History lessons.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:58 AM

Don ~~ What is your justification for "grossly misquote the Q'ran"? It is, or was, an accurate quotation from part of The Q'ran so far as I can see. As is well-known, the Book may contradict this elsewhere -- the Suras are not entirely consistent throughout. But there does not appear, then or now, to have been any "gross misquotation".

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: mayomick
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:09 AM

"Had they followed their instincts, it would have made no difference for the victim, and given the suicidal fervour of the killers, we would now be talking about six or more dead soldiers and probably the women tending to the victim as well."


Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word cowardice , but that's the very attitude I was talking about Don. Had a hundred soldiers come running out to assist their fallen comrade, it's very unlikely that six of them would have been killed . The people who killed Drummer Rigby were not supermen .


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:15 AM

But the soldiers were under orders, Mick. They only deploy if ordered. Their orders were clearly not to do so, as interference in the situation would be contrary to their rules of engagement. It was a job for the civilian police. I agree it was regrettable that the police involvement appeared to be delayed; but if they had got there in 3 minutes I can't see it would have made a lot of difference, as Drummer Rigby was dead by then and his killers were not attempting to escape.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:38 AM

Don, May may have said that.
As you say, she referred to potential radicalisees.

When it emerged that the suspects were known as would-be jihadists, it was asked why a closer watch was not put on them.

"Members will examine to what extent the alleged murderers were "on the radar" and whether there was any "culpability" on the part of the security service, the source said.

But they stressed: "There are thousands of people who are on the radar as would-be suspects. Only with a very small fraction of those are you able to provide that level of surveillance so that you know what each and every one of their movements is." "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/did-mi5-blunder-over-woolwich-killers-we-will-never-know-8631565.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 13 - 09:28 AM

Financial Times.
"Security experts argue that MI5 and the police have records on many Islamist extremists in the UK. In 2007, Jonathan Evans, former head of MI5, said there were at least 2,000 people in the UK who "pose a direct threat to national security and public safety".

However, security experts say MI5 has to constantly assess which of these might go on to plot acts of violence and therefore need to be pursued with greater intensity. "
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/33d814b4-c3d3-11e2-aa5b-00144feab7de.html#axzz2UPAKLP8K
What are you taking issue with Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 May 13 - 09:47 AM

Gee, Don - I wonder if they can explain - regardless of political and religious orientation - who DOESN"T have the "potential" to become radicalized?

Dead people, perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: mayomick
Date: 26 May 13 - 10:15 AM

I find it hard to believe that there were actually orders issued not to go to Drummer Rigby's assistance. If there were, how did the people giving the orders know that the poor kid wasn't still alive after the attack? I wasn't suggesting some sort of organized military deployment against the two terrorists ,so much as about the reaction of individuals in the army at seeing one of their own getting cut down in this way. Standing orders quite correctly make the distinction between military and civilian roles , but I can't see any officer reprimanding soldiers who disobeyed standing orders to go to the aid of Drummer Rigby in such an instance as this. If there were actual orders issued in the twenty minutes or so that it took for the police to arrive , I'd say that whoever gave the order would be in for trouble .


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 13 - 10:48 AM

It was not in sight of the gates.
The street is not overlooked by the barracks.

Greg MI5 is only interested in people who pose a threat to the nation.
They have a couple of thousands and these two were not considered more dangerous despite having been arrested in Kenya and tried to get to Somalia.
So, what is your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 May 13 - 11:40 AM

MI5 is only interested in people who pose a threat to the nation.

Right ----- and no-one poses a risk to the nation other tham Ismuslic Llamamentalists. No other threats out there.

And the CIA is forbidden to operate within the borders of the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 May 13 - 12:37 PM

On the contrary, mayomick, if the Officer Commanding had been aware of what was going on, he would have been in trouble if he had permitted any of the men under his command to intervene in what was strictly a matter for the civilian police.

Have you, I wonder, ever been subject to military law? -- I suspect you to be too young to have done National Service like us oldies. If you haven't, I suggest you drop the topic: you are just making yourself look a bit silly.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: mayomick
Date: 26 May 13 - 01:13 PM

MgM
are you seriously trying to tell me that soldiers aren't allowed to intervene in a civilian situation under any circumstance? Had the young man been trapped in a flat that was on fire a hundred yards from a huge army barracks would his fellow soldiers have said that it was a matter for the fire brigade ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 13 - 01:33 PM


Right ----- and no-one poses a risk to the nation other tham Ismuslic Llamamentalists. No other threats out there.


Yes there are Greg, but this figure is just about them.
A couple of thousands that they know about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 May 13 - 01:46 PM

"Walkabouts Verse....I know you like people to all live in special little 'boxes' from which they must never venture out, but please, wake up and know there is the blood of the world running through your veins...But blackout glasses on, so that you can see NO colours, then just accept PEOPLE as your Brothers and Sisters..." (Lizzie Cornish)...My "venture out" before sitting down to write WAV included about 40 nations; I doubt anyone appreciates our world/our United Nations being multicultural as much as I. And I'm a 100% sure that things would be a lot better and more peaceful if humans would just trade fairly with and VISIT other nations as respectful tourists.

And do you get angry, Lizzie, when you hear people talking about emigrating to Australia, e.g., without any consideration for Aboriginal "Land Rights"? http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/476693050


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 May 13 - 02:24 PM

Mayo ~~ Senior officers are appointed in recognition of their ability to decide on appropriate action, and hence to issue appropriate orders, in accordance with their judgment of a situation. In the circumstances you postulate, a CO would decide as to the best course of action, but would be unlikely to order his men to intervene as they could then possibly inhibit, rather than assist, the work of the appropriate authorities [in this case the Fire Brigade] -- but this would be a matter for his decision according to the circumstances prevailing. All would depend on the Colonel's assessment. In the case with which this thread is concerned, I repeat, an order from a CO to his men to intervene would be ultra vires, and I do not think any CO would assess it otherwise.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 May 13 - 02:53 PM

The contentious verse from the Koran is 9:5, where followers are exhorted to 'fight' polytheists and use the sword to either force them to convert to Islam and pay a Tax or be killed. There are quite a few verses in the same vein, about 'fighting' non-believers and if they prove stubborn, to kill them. This doesn't sound to me as if 'jihad' is an 'inner struggle' but a physically violent means to eradicate people who continue to practise their religion and refuse to conform to the rules and mores of Islam. The problem is that there are also verses encouraging peace and mercy etc. However, it's the infamous 9:5 that seems to be causing fundamentalists to incite terrorism. It must be added that in the early verses, 'People of the Book' (ie Jews and Christians) might get away with merely paying a Tax to Muslim coffers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 May 13 - 03:29 PM

...that's from Repentance, Eliza, part of which I quoted above: "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 May 13 - 03:55 PM

You will not find any such language in WalkaboutsVerse, of course; you will find positive nationalism, fair trade, vegetable and native gardening (harvest and habitat), animal welfare, birth control, eco-travel, anti-capitalism, pro-regulationism, a love of life...http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:21 PM

Eliza- you are of course familiar with the Old Testament? Plenty of similar "contentious" verses therein.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:25 PM

...militant but not as militant as the Koran, I think, Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:31 PM

Example Greg?
And what about New Testament?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:37 PM

I see Greg's resorting to the false equivalence gambit once again - it's old, it's bullshit but it's all he's got.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:21 PM

" it's old, it's bullshit but it's all he's got."

It is old and it is bullshit, it's such a pity that millions of people are so obsessed with such a load of old bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:03 PM

Care to show me where & why its false equivalence Bobad, or is your regular Islamophobic bullshit all you've got?

Keith - please show me where I mentioned the New Testament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:03 PM

Please, don't forget to also discuss Mr. Mohammed Saleen, aged 75, who was also unarmed and on his way home from his Mosque.

He suffered many fatal stab wounds in what the police described as the most frenzied and vicious attack they have ever seen.

It's just that THIS story, for some strange reason, NEVER made it into the mainstream media, such as all over our TV or Radio..

Also, please don't forget also to mention that over 5,000 Muslims came together today at Morden Mosque to pray for Drummer Lee and to show their solidarity with many others in this country....

No Christians went to their Churches in their thousands to pray for Mr. Mohammed Saleem, a much loved elderly gentleman and grandfather,who was deeply loved, liked and respected.

His family too have been torn apart and to be honest, no-one gave a fuck...

???????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:14 PM

Calling me Islamophobic (sic) now are you Greg. That shows me you are on the ropes with nothing left but name calling - but I knew that all along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:42 PM

Greg, I am indeed familiar with the Old Testament and in fact the entire Bible. My quotes from the Koran and any observations I made about them don't prevent me from noting similar warlike references in many other religious texts. I was merely commenting and not judging. One could, if one were so inclined, draw parallels with the activities of,say, the Conquistadores, the Spanish Inquisition, the Puritans, Mary I, Elizabeth I and many other bloodthirsty ways of ensuring 'converts' to any number of different religions. But we are, I thought, discussing here the murder this week of a man in Woolwich, motivated apparently by a deformed and misguided zeal for 'jihad' in the warped minds of two strange young men purporting to be Muslims. Opening out the thread to take in any and every religion would make it very unwieldy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:21 PM

Right you are Eliza, Greg has a penchant of trying to divert from the subject at hand when it comes to militant Islam, Islamism, Jihadism or whatever name you give it. He appears to either not understand the distinction between that and Islam or is a supporter of it especially when it is directed against Israel. He labels those of us who oppose it as Islamophobes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:40 PM

Sorry, in my previous post "penchant OF" should have been "penchant FOR" - I'm fussy that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:18 PM

My quotes from the Koran and any observations I made about them don't prevent me from noting similar warlike references in many other religious texts.

Agreed, Eliza.

Unfortunately, Islama/ophobic fanatics like Bobad are somehow prevented from noting similar warlike references in many other religious texts. And from even acknowledging that they exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:42 PM

There he goes again, lol. It's too bad because at one time I enjoyed his posts and agreed with many of them but then he became not much more than a stalker with a glib comment aimed at those with whom he disagrees and has now descended simply into name calling....sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:04 AM

So, we are now down to petty point scoring, mis-information and complete nonsense. Didn't take long did it. Sad.

A young father has been brutally killed. There is no excuse for that.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:32 AM

There is a difference between excusing and understanding. I understand that some Muslims might see the western invasions of Muslim countries as religious oppression with more than a hint of crusade about them, and I understand that some of those might wish to take revenge on members of the western armed forces who took part in those invasions.

If there is a war, then non-combatants do get killed and sometimes even targetted - consider the Blitz, Cologne, Munich, Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. But nowadays we tend to see it as less immoral seek to kill and destroy only combatants, military resources, and installations necessary for military purposes.

One may rightly prohibit and seek to prevent actions outwith such moral judgements - but history proves that you can only stop martyrs by addressing their cause. Even WWII German hostagetaking and murder did not stop the resistance, and we see the resistance as heroes. Nothing stopped the Irish republicans (although I do not see them as heroes, and many of their targets were civilian rather than military).

I am concerned that the organisational response, even from Muslims, seems to include licensing for Islamic Imams (since I can't see a way to prejudge which are likely to become Islamist as distinct from Islamic).

What utterly baffles me however is how an apparently intelligent A grade student born in London and into an observant Xtian family could buy into the type of Islam that, apparently, he did. I get more and more the flavour of a young man with a mental illness. I know someone in the same hospital as him, and gossip (probably more reliable than government pronunciamento) is that he really is not likely to die so perhaps we will get some answers in due course .

Must go and fix caravan!


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:14 AM

I agree with you Richard. That's why I wrote '...warped minds of two strange young men...' It has been suggested that one of the them had undergone torture and perhaps abuse of a sexual nature while under interrogation in Kenya, and that this abuse had engendered the subsequent acts in Woolwich. One could be cynical and deduce he's preparing the way for his defence in court, (post-traumatic stress disorder, torture-induced psychosis etc) but on the other hand, perhaps he truly was rendered vulnerable by his experiences. I have faith that the British Justice System will thoroughly and fairly assess his state of mind and deal with him accordingly. They must after all let Justice be seen to have been done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:35 AM

He appears to either not understand the distinction between [Jihadism] and Islam

As there are those who ostensibly do not understand - or choose to ignore - the distinction between Judaism and militant Zionism.

And those who maintain that the foreign policies of Britain & the US and the foreign and domestic policies of Israel are irrelevant to the points under discussion, as is the concept of "blowback".

He labels those of us who oppose it as Islamophobes.

Do you intend "it" to refer to Islam or Jihadism or something else entirely? And how would you characterize yourself? as an Islamophile?

he became not much more than a stalker with a glib comment aimed at those with whom he disagrees

And then there are those who label people who disagree with them "stalkers". Of course, that is in no way "name calling".

It's too bad because at one time I enjoyed his posts and agreed with many of them

I'm gutted. Absolutely gutted.

There is a difference between excusing and understanding.

Amen, Richard. Absolutely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:37 PM

Eliza, he was in Kenya to cross into Somalia to join al-Shabab, a violent extreme Islamist group, so what happened there came after his radicalisation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 13 - 01:05 PM

"he was in Kenya to cross into Somalia to join al-Shabab, a violent extreme Islamist group"
Me
"MI5 attempted to recruit one of the killers"
Keith
"I think it probably true Jim. I think it a sensible policy to employ informers"
And "violent extreme Islamist group" members, it would appear.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 13 - 01:34 PM

Mayomick provides a salutory example of just how stupid some people can be.

That is before al Qaeda and the Taliban, before the creation of Israel or the Arab-Israeli conflict, before Khomeini, before Saudi Arabia, before drones, before most Americans even knew what jihad or Islam was, and, most importantly, well before the United States had engaged in a single military instead of sayincursion overseas or even had an established foreign policy. But after the crusades, Bobad.

Apologies Keith. I suppose instead of saying "Or is it that you think the resulting catastrophe, in which innocent civilians have died in many scores of thousands, should be met with peaceful protest?" I should have said: "Or is it that you expect the resulting casualty...will be meet by peaceful protest?" That would have been nearer to what I meant, but I admit that I have great sypmathy with violent protest in some circs, even in our dempracy. One vote in four years allows precious little scope to express a view on everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:05 PM

There are many non-violent ways of expressing views, e.g. demonstrations, protests, civil disobedience.

I am still shocked that you think it reasonable to resort to violence.

Jim, MI5 has had many successes in "turning" enemies, but perhaps they will employ you as an expert consultant.
What do they know compared to you, right Jim?

Are you challenging the accuracy of anything I have said?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:24 PM

Sorry, I was the guest at 1.34pm.

I don't know whether Keith's question was only intended for Jim. If for me too, I do question some of the stuff Keith comes out with. Not least his assertion that "thousands" of muslims are out to get us. His position is at best a bit inconsistent. He seemed to accept that 2,000 muslims are deemed to be potential risks (according to MI5) but also that only an unspecified proportion of that 2,000 might go on to plot violence.Someone above referred to Quran 9.5 which I took to mean surah 9, section 5 in an English translation. But I see no words in that section approximating to what was quoted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:31 PM

Peter, I said that of course the majority of British Muslims are not extremist, but that a significant minority are, and quoted the security services figure.
These are those known to be sympathetic to militant Islam.
I first heard it quoted on a R4 news prog. but I provided some links showing the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:57 PM

In which case, Keith, his possible 'defence' of having been tortured and rendered mentally ill or whatever won't hold water in court. It also seems unlikely that TWO insane men joined forces to perpetrate this atrocity. Regarding the verse/s from the Koran, surely any world religion should see that such exhortations are not at all appropriate nowadays. In the OT one is encouraged to 'smite' various non-acceptable groups, grab the jawbone of an ass and whack people, and in a general way commit violent and murderous acts. But no sane person would advocate such behaviour today. Would they....?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:59 PM

I think you'll find that a large proportion of the US fundagelical right would indeed so exhort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:01 PM

Keith, give us the correct citation, and give us the correct text, and then we can see if you are a bigoted liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:12 PM

I think you'll find that a large proportion of the US fundagelical right would indeed so exhort.

Absolutely, Richard. Not only would, but DO. Constantly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:30 PM

Richard I have given 4 links already.
Have you not heard this statement given to explain why these two were not being watched when security forces were aware of their militancy?
Are you suggesting I have made it all up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:30 PM

I imagine that the sort of folk who would bury a woman up to her neck in the sand and chuck rocks at her head until she dies, chop off the hand of a thief or genitally mutilate young girls wouldn't baulk at hacking to death a man in the street with a meat cleaver. But the majority of Muslims surely don't subscribe to such evil?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 13 - 07:05 PM

But the majority of Muslims surely don't subscribe to such evil?

Correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 13 - 09:14 PM

Keith: tell us EXACTLY the relevant verses of the Koran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 01:37 AM

But depends which Muslims surely, Eliza; the majority of those in Muslim countries where such evils are a part of the established law [Saudi, N Nigeria...] DO so subscribe, alas; do they not? Or who would chuck those rocks, amputate those hands, mutilate those genitals, cane those raped girls' bare bottoms...?

And what was the ancestry of these two young men? --


"Thursday 23 May 2013 UK
Woolwich suspect Michael Adebolajo a 'typical teenager'
Woolwich murder suspect Michael Adebolajo "was just a typical teenager" says a shocked neighbour who knew him when he was growing up in Essex.
Kemi Ibrahim-Adeoti told Channel 4 News that at first she didn't recognise the man in the videos of the incident in Woolwich, which left soldier Lee Rigby dead and two suspected attackers under armed guard in hospital, as the same person who had come round to play with her own son as a teenager:
"I'm just appalled that something like that could happen in the Nigerian community..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 13 - 02:31 AM

Richard, I have not commented on the Koran and know nothing about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:36 AM

I would ask those who say that Islam is a religion of peace and that Muslims are constrained to commit no murder, how they reconcile that with current events in Syria and Iraq.

Mass atrocities against ordinary people and children are a daily occurrence, and for no tactical purpose.
They appear to be an end in themselves and committed by apparently deeply religious Muslims, even though the victims are also Muslims albeit the wrong sort.
How much less mercy can non-believers expect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:45 AM

Keith, it was MtheGM who asserted that a rendering of part of the Koran was accurate, not you.   Apologies for that.

MtheGM, you say above " It is, or was, an accurate quotation from part of The Q'ran so far as I can see.". Please provide us the exact reference so that we can check.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:48 AM

"how they reconcile that with current events in Syria and Iraq."
Or the Israelis in Gaza - or the Christians in Viet-Nam or Chile or Greece..... or how does any "peace loving and "god-fearing" religion-claiming nation carry out murders and other atrocities - or "pass by on the other side while they are being committed - suspension of belief perhaps?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:52 AM

The nearest I can find is "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

This is really fairly unlike Bobad's alleged quote of "The ambassador answered us that [their right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."

Here is an explanation of "zakah" - http://www.uwt.org/site/article.asp?id=172


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:56 AM

Richard ~~ My point was rather in the nature of a query to Don as to the reason for his denouncing it as inaccurate than an outright assertion as to its accuracy. I accepted what I had read from those, including Muslims, who had commented on the Sura under question. I note that Don has not been back to justify his claim that the translation was 'inaccurate'.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 04:00 AM

... or, as he actually claimed, 'misquoted'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 13 - 04:07 AM

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/submitted/Perry/holywar.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: mayomick
Date: 28 May 13 - 04:59 AM

"Mayomick provides a salutory example of just how stupid some people can be."

You should learn to spell before you throw out insults like that Peter. Why did you insult me in that way?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:17 AM

Don may not have challenged the accuracy of the alleged quote, but I now have. Kindly respond.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:23 AM

Interesting link Jim. A bit out of date (2001) and I think not written by an Islamic scholar (correct me if I am wrong).

It also translates the offending verse differently - saying "idolaters" rather than "polytheists".


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:30 AM

Demonstrate more clearly where the inaccuracy lies, please then Richard: by citing the version Don claimed to be responding to with accusations of 'misquotation', and what you asseverate to be the correct quotation; and I will endeavour to respond if significant differences do indeed appear, which could not be accounted for by simple variations in the verbal options of the translators.

Till then: no comment.

Why, btw, have you chosen to respond on Don's behalf when he has not himself seen fit to do so? Will he welcome this interpolation of yours, do you think?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:53 AM

Neither the date nor the religion/culture of the scholar is in any way relevant to the arguments he puts forward (I take it you were being serious and not taking the piss out of those who have used such get-outs in the past?).
It is a general analysis of how all three religions have been adapted to suit various agendas throughout history - in my opinion a brilliant summing up of the 'movable feast' nature of all religions.
Nit-picking the teachings of Islam to point the finger at all Muslims as being potential perverts or killers or general undesirables is an all-too-common practice on this forum and using the brutal killing of a young man within days of the event in order to do so seems particularly despicable - and speaking as a non-believer, particularly 'unchristian' - correct me if I'm wrong.
A plague on all their houses      
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:05 AM

Jim ~~ I don't think anyone has suggested that 'all Muslims' sympathise with such violent practices ostensibly in support of their faith; but I would commend to you the ongoing correspondence in The Times regarding the attempts by Dr T Hargey, Imam of Oxford mosque, to distance himself from the offenders' actions, and the extent to which correspondents consider these to have fallen far short of an outright denunciation.

Never, in addition, forget the wise words of Yeats in 'The Second Coming' ~~

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity


~~ It is an unhappy phenomenon that those with enough 'passionate intensity' to commit such acts are those liable to be regarded as the spokespersons for whatever cause it may be that they purport to espouse.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:09 AM

"have you chosen to respond on Don's behalf when he has not himself seen fit to do so?"
I seem to remember it was Don who jumped to your defence and put me in my place (rightfully) when I was harassing you for a clarification of your own position?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:17 AM

...and your point is...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:28 AM

Part of the problem is that the young are passionate and ardent. They are therefore vulnerable to the 'teachings' of the terrorist cells apparently preaching hatred and murder in back rooms of certain mosques or houses. It must be quite exciting and even flattering to be given 'jihad' tasks involving danger, and requiring courage to undertake. You see this in student riots, the London riots, Punk rock twenty years ago etc etc. Disaffected youth will always be a good recruiting ground for evil. To counteract this there are already many organisations (of faiths and of none) who try to direct the young towards worthwhile activities. They need more funding and promoting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:35 AM

"...and your point is...?"
Do as you would be done by maybe?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:36 AM

Or the Israelis in Gaza -
Bad example Jim.
The Israelis endeavoured to avoid harming civilians and achieved a record low figure for collateral casualties.
Civilians were not targeted as even Goldstone affirmed.
In Syria and Iraq the atrocities are targeted and quite deliberate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: mayomick
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:14 AM

I don't think you should confuse nastiness with youthful passion and ardour Eliza. It's not only the young who can be nasty - Peter K is an old boy isn't he? I remember shortly after the Danish Islamophobic cartoons came out in 2005 speaking to a Muslim who had helped organize the huge march against the invasion of Iraq in Dublin two years previously . A lot of people were saying at the time - especially leftists it must be said - that the Danish newspaper had a right to mock Muslims ,that the cartoons were an expression of free speech , how it was important to defend hard won democratic rights against the islamo-fascists etc etc . The Muslim shook his head and asked , but why do people want to mock us and insult us in the first place?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:34 AM

Wriggling, MtheGM?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:43 AM

"...and your point is...?"
Do as you would be done by maybe?
Jim Carroll ---
.,,.
I think you misunderstood, Jim. I was not "harrassing" Don for an answer, but asking Richard why he thought Don had not chosen to respond to my query as to where he [Don] found a 'misquotation'. It was Richard I was addressing in the post you misquoted [you omitted the vital word 'why' at the beginning of the bit you pasted], not Don.

Got it now?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:44 AM

So I think it might just be you who are 'wriggling', Richie-Boy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: mayomick
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:53 AM

And now the UK wants to turn him into some sort of a hero . I had a facebook request from somebody two days ago asking me to sign a petition to give Lee Rigby a state funeral. It really shows the low mentality over there - I suppose you can't help it with your history , all your nasty anti-Muslim jokes, all your years of Paki-bashing your centuries of plundering in the name of spreading civilization, some of it got blown back at you in Woolwich - a hideous echo. I felt sorry for your poor drummer boy and wondered why you left him on the road to die alone and some arsehole comes along and calls me stupid !


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 07:57 AM

I mean, Rich, furnish the two versions postulated of the Sura in question as I requested, and I will gladly comment on the differences, if any, which might constitute 'misquotation'. Until you have done that, how would you expect me to comment, having nothing to go on?

~M~

[like the police station where the lavatory got stolen; the cops said they had nothing to go on...]


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Musket sans body
Date: 28 May 13 - 08:06 AM

Mayomick. Are all paddies as thick as you?

Not nice is it?

So stop stereotyping the English then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 13 - 08:32 AM

Mayomick - thanks for the appalling generalisation of an entire nation. You'd fit in a treat with the BNP and UKIP and the like; you're more Anglo-Saxon than most of the British you so despise.

"some of it got blown back at you in Woolwich"

Wow. Really nasty. You must be so proud. Just goes to show there are these sad, ignorant tossers in every country in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 13 - 08:45 AM

"have fallen far short of an outright denunciation"
I would remind you that there far more issues than this in operation here, as has been made plain by those who would use the killing of a soldier as a platform to attack Muslims - including those of you who would set out to prove that such acts are down to the Muslim religion.
Worth repeating I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU9QBX4U9qE
"The Israelis endeavoured to avoid harming civilians"
No they didn't, but thanks for your example of exactly the type of individual I'm talking about - your timing was impeccable.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 13 - 09:03 AM

"Part of the problem is that the young are passionate and ardent. They are therefore vulnerable to the 'teachings' of the terrorist cells apparently preaching hatred and murder in back rooms of certain mosques or houses"

Extremist politics always blossom during times of depravation, depression and economic instability and it's no coincidence that all over Europe right-wing and extremist religious groups are on the rise. This is because many people (often at the lower end of the income spectrum) feel they have no voice in society; the political elite ignore and lie to them (and us), large corporations dictate government policy and ordinary folk are completely sidelined. With no hope of long-term stability in their lives they seek meaning elsewhere, often in the sometimes incoherent rantings of political and religious fringes who will accept their devotion without question, provided they don't question too much themselves. Some sort of economic stability is essential to prevent extremism in all its myriad forms; people need to feel they can earn a living, have a secure home, know that if they fall on hard times society will care for them.

Combine this with the spectre of nationalism and the lazy. predictable stereotyping of any group outside the mainstream (Roma, homosexuals, immigrants, the poor, the disabled etc) or from another country (see mayomicks rant above and anything uttered by the English Defence League), chuck in a bit of nationalism or religious bigotry and you're away.

On the radio this morning was a chap from a mosque in London (I missed the start of the interview) who, along with some of the ladies of the mosque took tea and biccies to the EDL protest on Sunday in an attempt to create dialogue. It worked partially, but what it seemed to have done is actually get people to talk to each other and recognise that between some of the EDL lot and the Muslims from the mosque there was indeed plenty of common ground.

People need to interact and communicate to have their misconceptions challenged, and they need to talk and understand to see that wherever you are in the world, whatever your sexual orientation, the colour of your skin, where and to whom you were born, which football team you follow or who your god is, at the end of the day we're all pretty much the same, we worry about the same things, laugh at the same things and are all trying to get through life with as little trouble as possible, and pretty much all ordinary folk are sharing the struggle.

Haters gonna hate, but fuck 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 13 - 09:28 AM

such acts are down to the Muslim religion.
They are not, as most Muslims do not approve, but they are committed in the name of Islam.

"The Israelis endeavoured to avoid harming civilians"
No they didn't,


Yes they did.
" in 2007 and 2008 the ratio dropped to an unprecedented level of less than 1:30, or 2–3 percent of the total casualties being civilian.[28] Figures showing an improvement from 1:1 in 2002 to 1:30 in 2008 were also cited by Jerusalem Post journalist Yaakov Katz.[21]
Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School stated that the 2008 figure of 1:30 represents the lowest civilian to combatant casualty ratio in history in the setting of combating terrorism. Dershowitz criticized the international media and human rights organizations for not taking sufficient note of it. He also argued that even this figure may be misleading because not all civilians are innocent bystanders.[29]
In October 2009, Dershowitz stated that the ratio for Israel's campaign of targeted assassinations stood at 1 civilian for every 28 terrorists. He argued that "this is the best ratio of any country in the world that is fighting asymmetrical warfare against terrorists who hide behind civilians. It is far better than the ratio achieved by Great Britain and the United States in Iraq or Afghanistan, where both nations employ targeted killings of terrorist leaders."[30]
Testifying before the United Nations, Col. Richard Kemp, a British commander, stated that:[31]
Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population... The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.

The IDF blog lists various counter-terrorism methods used by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties and lower the civilian casualty ratio, and includes videos related to each method:[32]
Pinpoint targeting - singling out terrorists for an airstrike in a way that won't harm civilian bystanders.
Aborting strikes due to risk of civilians being injured or killed.
Advanced technology - the IDF has heavily invested in smart bombs,[36] and has developed special missiles, such as the F-16I Sufa and the Delilah Missile, which has the ability to cancel a strike while in the air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israeli_airstrikes_on_militants_in_the_Gaza_Strip


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 09:42 AM

"those of you who would set out to prove that such acts are down to the Muslim religion."
.,,.
Those of whom, Jim? It's those who do the acts who set out to 'prove' this. Some just take their word for it. As they are Muslims, they should know, after all ~~ better than the unnamed 'you' that you accuse; and better than Jim Carroll.

Shouldn't they?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 13 - 09:53 AM

"I would ask those who say that Islam is a religion of peace and that Muslims are constrained to commit no murder, how they reconcile that with current events in Syria and Iraq."

Islam/Judasim/Christianity and their legion offspring would all say they are religions of peace and tolerance, yet all are motivators in societies who use extreme violence as a tool of foreign policy. Whether they're fighting each other, their own internal conflicts or whatever all these religions claim to be the 'true' word of god and so justify their acceptance of violence.

How does any killer reconcile their core beliefs, even if contradictory, to themselves?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: mayomick
Date: 28 May 13 - 10:21 AM

Oh I see, I'm the same as your UKIP , BNP and EDL, am I? - there should be plenty of room for dialogue if that's the case seeing as you're interested in finding common ground with extremism in all its myriad forms. I'm very much looking forward to the free biccies Stu ,if you've any left over after meeting with the chaps and ladies of the EDL.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 13 - 10:33 AM

mayomick, you can share my biccies anytime you want, and you just might find not everyone in Great Britain/England/Wales/Scotland/whoever-the-fuck-you-hate fits your narrow-minded preconceptions.

Shit, perhaps we'll even have a tune?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:09 AM

"Those of whom, Jim?"
Those of you who would make this a "Muslim" crime and attempt to prove it so with selections from the Koran.
If this is a "Muslim" crime then the Norwegian massacre (committed by a self-proclaimed militant Christian - and all other atrocities carried out by Christians would have to be regarded as a "Christian" crime.
I've been following the 'Times' debate with some interest; it fails to take into consideration the 'Keith' factor - that if the balance is got wrong one way it is seen as an indication of an admission of guilt, if the other way it is seen as an insult to non Muslims and equally an indication of guilt.
Meanwhile, cack at the soapbox - Keith once more uses yet another thread to prove that Israelis "didn't do it guv".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:11 AM

Did I write 'cack' - stet.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:17 AM

When it comes to picking on Muslims all day long (& damaging & desecrating Islam) NO ONE, can compete with Islamist Jihadis. If "Islamophobia" can be measured in terms of killing Muslims, we have 3 million dead in Bangladesh, we have Darfur, we have the slaughter of Shia, Ahmadi, Sufi & many Sunni on an industrial scale in Pakistan, Iraq & beyond; not to mention those indirectly killed & harmed as a result of the Jihadi Islamists actions from the US 'War on Terror' after the 9 11 to the recent execution in the UK & the incidents against innocent Muslims in its wake. Blowing up Mosques; isn't that Islamophobic? How about blowing up Muslim pilgrims? Or the brutal stonings of women, including rape victims, including child rape victims for "crimes against chastity", aren't they Muslims? Or the young girls shot or attacked with acid for wanting an education or trying to escape a forced "marriage with a man 3 or 4 times their age? They're Muslims too. If It comes to acts of desecration, like burning the Koran, there are orchestrated protests when some idiot in the US does it, but how many Korans are destroyed when a Mosque or pilgrimage is blown up? (or doesn't it matter as long as they kill a load of innocent Muslims in the process?)And how many Korans were burned when the historic libruary at Timbuktu was set on fire by Islamists? And Why? "Why not?" it seems, along with some of the treasures of Islamic civilisation at it most creative. It's hard to damage & degrade the faith, the civilisation & the people more than that. White nationalist fascists in Europe spew Muslim hating rhetoric, & exploit the abuses of fascists of the Islamist variety as their most effective propaganda. But in their wildest dreams, the most anti-Muslim fascists in Europe could only dream of inflicting the misery & death upon Muslims, & the damage to their faith & reputation that the Islamist Jihadi fascists do on a regular basis. I think that anyone would be hard pressed to compete with that, when it comes to "picking on Muslims", & least of all, those Muslims like Tarek Fatah, who strive to show that there are other faces to Islam & that the Jihadis do not represent them.

Copied from the comment section of a post of a cartoon by Tarek Fatah on Facebook.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:23 AM

Keith once more uses yet another thread to prove that Israelis "didn't do it guv".
You raised the subject of Israel Jim, and you can not challenge anything that I have posted.
It is all fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:25 AM

Seems I'm not the only one who thinks we are all the same:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/28/woolwich-murder-faith-humani


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:31 AM

'Those of you who would make this a "Muslim" crime and attempt to prove it so with selections from the Koran' ---

It is not 'OF YOU' who are doing this, Jim; it is 'OF THEMSELVES'--
Can you really not get it? The Islamists quote the Koran in their own justification incessantly. All anyone else does is point this out.

Oh, what's the use? Once that Carroll·Patent·Instamatic·Racism·Spotter gets plugged in....


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:44 AM

""I note that Don has not been back to justify his claim that the translation was 'inaccurate'.""

Inaccurate insofar as it represents the very worst kind of cherry picking, well beloved of our minority of racea nd gender bigots.

It is a sentence, the proper meaning of which is obscured by the absence of the whole textual context from which it has been ripped, and even thyen it is not a verbatim translation of the original words.

In other words its genuine meaning has been twisted, either by the man who is reported to have said it or, quite possibly, by him who reported (politicians both).

As to why I have not been back before, to answer, I seem to recall I once had occasion to defend your right actually to have a life outside of Mudcat, eh Mike?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:58 AM

Indeed, Don. Didn't mean to hassle. But really exercised as to wherein precisely lies the 'mistranslation' you claim to find in the passage under consideration. Do you actually know the original from which the extract comes? Or know how selective it may be? Tendentious selective quotation of an out-of-context passage is not quite the same thing as a 'mistranslation' [a tendentious accusation in itself, eh?], is it now? Without reproducing a work in full, it is surely all that can ever be furnished.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 May 13 - 11:59 AM

""To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable.""

While delivering basic necessities to your prisoners, which in reality, is what the inhabitants of Gaza are, is a necessity if you wish to avoid being accused of genocide.

You really need to stop stupidly trying to pretend that Gaza Palestinians are free agents.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 12:07 PM

Perhaps, indeed, Don, you are in a position to do what Richard appears to be unwilling to do [& he accuses me of 'wriggling'!], and cite that version of the Sura we are discussing, alongside what you would consider 'a verbatim translation of the original words', so that we should at least have some genuine basis to pursue this [what seems to me not unimportant] point?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 May 13 - 12:22 PM

""The Islamists quote the Koran in their own justification incessantly.""

This is where the inaccuracies build upon each other into one massive misconception.

The Islamists do not quote the Q'ran. Most of the British ones, in all probability, have neither the deire nor the ability to read it.

What they quote are the slanted interpretations of carefully cherry picked passages, by sundry trouble making Islamist preachers whose objective is to produce the kind of action we saw in woolwich.

If they had read the book for themselves, they would know under precisely what conditions of persecution those actions were to be taken.

Just as, in the bible, some quite horrendous actions are mandated, which no Christian who has read the whole book for himself would advocate as general rules to be obeyed in the modern world.

However, there are some so-called Christians who have been radicalised in the same way as these Muslim youths.

Compare the Japanese, currently the most polite and law abiding people, who are enthralled by scenes of natural beauty, with the Japanese of seventy years ago and their treatment of prisoners of war and conquered peoples.

Human beings can be turned, so easily, into ravening beasts by charismatic community leaders with an agenda to destroy some group which they hate.

We have such people in the USA, Britain, Iran, Syria, yes and Israel and every other country on the planet.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 May 13 - 12:32 PM

""Without reproducing a work in full, it is surely all that can ever be furnished.""

Not, I suspect, your original thought or words, which is why I have no problem with categorising that sentence as "weasel words".

You know perfectly well that just adding in a dozen surrounding sentences can easily reverse the meaning which an interpreter has chosen to convey.

A classic from the bible is the story of Jesus chasing the money lenders(changers) from the temple.

How many times have you seen that used to claim that he thought those men were evil.

Just a superficial glance at the surrounding text shows that it was the location, not the occupation, to which he objected.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 12:35 PM

OK then, Don: it is those stir-it-up imams who are doing it. 'Cherry-picked' or not, it is, so, extracts from the Koran that they are feeding to those young men; and don't claim that the imams have never read it. All you have done is move the responsibility one stage farther back in the Islamist community. But Jim claims it is some of us trying to throw the responsibility on Koranic quotations; which it isn't.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: selby
Date: 28 May 13 - 12:39 PM

Compassion and sense appears to work on all sides
Keith

York Mosque praised for offering EDL protesters tea

Father Tim Jones said "the world can learn" from what happened outside the mosque
A mosque has been praised for serving tea and biscuits to English Defence League supporters after the far-right group arranged a demonstration there.
About six people turned up to protest at the mosque in Bull Lane, York, on Sunday and were invited inside to play football with worshippers.
More than 100 supporters of the mosque had gone there after learning of the planned EDL protest.
Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu said the mosque's response was "fantastic".
He said: "Tea, biscuits, and football are a great and typically Yorkshire combination when it comes to disarming hostile and extremist views."
'Proud moment'
Father Tim Jones, who went to the Bull Lane mosque, which is situated in his parish, said: "I've always known they were intelligent and compassionate people and I think this has demonstrated the extent to which they are people of courage - certainly physical courage and also a high degree of moral courage.

"I think the world can learn from what happened outside that ramshackle little mosque on Sunday."

Hull Road ward councillor Neil Barnes said it had been a "proud moment for York".

He said: "I don't think I'll ever forget the day that the York Mosque tackled anger and hatred with peace and warmth - and I won't forget the sight of a Muslim offering a protester tea and biscuits with absolute sincerity."

Fears over a demonstration grew after Yorkshire EDL Scarborough Division posted a message on its Facebook page calling for supporters to gather outside the mosque.

Imam Abid Salik said: "We did have a few people who did come to protest but when they came some of the members of the mosque went over and they engaged in a conversation.

"Some people went over with cups of tea and biscuits, they were talking for about 30 or 40 minutes and then they came inside, which was a really, really beautiful thing."


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 May 13 - 12:46 PM

""Perhaps, indeed, Don, you are in a position to do what Richard appears to be unwilling to do [& he accuses me of 'wriggling'!], and cite that version of the Sura we are discussing, alongside what you would consider 'a verbatim translation of the original words', so that we should at least have some genuine basis to pursue this [what seems to me not unimportant] point?""

No Mike, I do not have the ability to read the original in Arabic, or Aramaic, or whetever was the original. For taht you would need an Islamic theological scholar.

But if I cannot prove that the actual words have been misquoted, no one here can prove that they have NOT!

So to use that story without further inquiry, to make some anti Islam point, is at best specious and at worst, downright dishonest.

Given that the quote consists of a single sentence, taken from a passage which might say anything from "this is a hard and fast rule" to "genuine believers should not act in accordance with this heresy"........well, I'm sure you see where I'm coming from.

A lot more research is needed before we allow our eager beaver anti Muslims to start throwing bricks,.......and please don't ask Abu Qtadr!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 12:49 PM

Point taken, Don. But we are not talking about the money-changers in the temple; we are talking about a particular Koranic passage, which some imams have used to persuade some youths, so that they could then cite it as their authority, to do certain things. You don't know their context [if you did you would have accepted my previous challenge and supplied it!]; neither do I. Neither do the young men; but the imams do, and if they choose to 'cherry-pick' for this purpose...

Is there, perhaps, something not entirely unweasel in your words here?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 12:51 PM

That in response to your previous post, but I don't think yours cross-posted with it invalidates my point...


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 01:13 PM

"But if I cannot prove that the actual words have been misquoted, no one here can prove that they have NOT!"
.,,.
Feel bound to say, Don, with all moderation, that that seems to me more than somewhat desperate...!


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:41 PM

"But Islamism is not Islam. Islamism is the politicisation of Islam, the desire to impose a version of this ancient faith over society. To achieve this, Islamism uses political grievances, such as mine, to alienate and then provide an alternative sense of belonging to vulnerable young Muslims. Preying on the grievances of disaffected young men is the bedrock of Islamism.

Like all bigoted ideologies, it plays on the identity politics game, creating a "them and us", in order to provide a home for the "us" against the alien "other" and control the community by acting as the sole "representative" of Muslims."

I was a radical Islamist who hated all of you


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:20 PM

FFS, MtheGM. Go back and read the thread. I don't have to do your homework. You will find Bobad's (I think it was Bobad) quote (for the accuracy of which I do not vouch) of the words of an ancient Moslem addressing teh USA. You will find your assertion that it accurately represented the Koran. You will find a reference to which verse of the Koran. And you will find my text, taken from a Koranic site. I'll see if I can find the link to the site again, but really you should do your own homework.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 13 - 05:41 PM

I made no such assertion, Richard. I simply asked Don his reason for asserting that it was a misquotation, when so far as I remembered its sentiment was as I remembered having read previously. He has since admitted he can't be sure, as he doesn't know the language of the original quotation -- but that 'nobody can prove that it isn't misquoted'; which, as I said to him, strikes me as somewhat desperate.

I don't see where you get the idea that it is my job to prove for you that I am wrong. If you want so to demonstrate, by putting together the two versions under consideration, then that is up to you. Not, I repeat, my job at all. If you can't be bothered, then I stick to my point that neither you nor Don has demonstrated any 'misquotation' of the Sura in question to have occurred,,, and trust my recollection that bobad's citation which started this tranche of the discussion off is accurate. If you still think it isn't then demonstrate so. Otherwise shut-up-a-da-face.

FFS, as you so charmingly put it.

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 May 13 - 06:52 PM

OK Mike,

Desperate you say.

I say that one single sentence taken from any text, can never give an accurate assessment of the thrust of the whole, absent the context.

Now you tell me that is wrong, if you can, in honesty, do so.

Put your money where your mouth is, or else shut it, as you say, FFS!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 13 - 10:38 PM

Jesus wept, MtheGM.

First Bobad

"
Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad - PM
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:53 PM

So, you think that the root cause of Islamist Jihadism is Israel and the West's interference in Islamic countries, well think again:

The ambassador answered us that [their right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.

The above passage is not a reference to a declaration by al Qaeda or some Iranian fatwa. They are the words of Thomas Jefferson, then the U.S. ambassador to France, reporting to Secretary of State John Jay a conversation he'd had with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, Tripoli's envoy to London, in 1786 -- more than two and a quarter centuries ago.

That is before al Qaeda and the Taliban, before the creation of Israel or the Arab-Israeli conflict, before Khomeini, before Saudi Arabia, before drones, before most Americans even knew what jihad or Islam was, and, most importantly, well before the United States had engaged in a single military incursion overseas or even had an established foreign policy."

Now look at the translation I gave you, from a Koranic source: my words: -

"From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 28 May 13 - 03:52 AM

The nearest I can find is "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

This is really fairly unlike Bobad's alleged quote of "The ambassador answered us that [their right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."



If you look, the words quoted by Thomas Jefferson (or allegedly so) as NOT the same as the relevant words of the Koran (the source for which I have also given above). In short, they are a misquote. You said they were accurate. They are not. In short, Don was (remarkably) quite right on this occasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:55 AM

Thank you, Richard. I take the point, if these are indeed the same passages. But you are wrong in your last comment ~~ I did not say they were accurate; I made no assertion but simply asked where Don had found them, as he claimed 'misquoted', as they resembled what I recalled to have heard on some previous occasion. He has now withdrawn his assertion that they were misquoted, admitting that he hasn't the knowledge to make such a judgment; and fallen back on his somewhat feeble IMO argument that no passage can be accurately quoted by extracting a single sentence from it out of context; to which I would rejoin that it would depend what that sentence, even regarded as a single entity, says, and that this will not pass as an outright generalisation.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 01:08 AM

I didn't say 'FFS', Don. If you look, I was quoting Richard back at himself.

As to your, "I say that one single sentence taken from any text, can never give an accurate assessment of the thrust of the whole, absent the context.
Now you tell me that is wrong, if you can, in honesty, do so."

I dealt with this in my reply to Richard [in which I apologise for failing to close the 'underline' instruction which should only have underlined the one word 'asked']. To reiterate: sometimes it can, sometimes not; it depends both on the content of the single sentence quoted and of its content. I should myself feel that that sentence originally cited by bobad [which, I remind you, you claimed 'a misquotation' but now admit you haven't the knowledge to maintain such an accusation] is strong enough in itself to provide at least evidence of lethally aggressive intentions in its formulator, whatever the rest of the passage in which it appears (which you have not cited to show that the sentence quoted is in any way atypical of its context) may say.

Do you, honestly now Don, not feel this at least a tenable position on my part?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 01:11 AM

'it depends both on the content of the single sentence quoted and of its content' ...

Apologies for that nonsensical phrase above ~~ the 2nd 'content' should of course have been 'context'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,jeff
Date: 29 May 13 - 02:41 AM

There isn't a single Muslim anywhere in the world who doesn't have blood on their hands when it comes to these types of atrocities. ALL mosques have a portion of their tithes set aside for Jihad. There are no 'good, law abiding muslims'. They simply lay low and wait until they have a clear majority then they try convert or destroy the culture in which they find themselves. If they're good and lawabiding theyr ejudt lsying low until the timre is right.

Don't be fooled for a second as we're ALL infidels and lower than dogs unless some worthwhile service can be found for an infidel to serve his/her muslim overlord. Otherwise, it's perfectly ok to kill and EAT a non-muslim, povided they're consumed uncooked. Sharia Law. These 2 guys think they are martyrs for Jihad, their lives are meaningless, but what glories await them in the hereafter. Sorry if this seems to fly in the face amoung the Musim apologists on this site. Get it through your thick skulls. They are out to convert or destroy Westen Civilization.

Thus far they're making rather short work of it. 20 years ago the Musilim Botherhood ageed it's priority is to indoctrinate the next generation of Amerian children. In somet textbooks 34 pages are devoteed to explaning muslim traditions and cutoms while all the other religions are limited to a total of 3.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 02:58 AM

In fact, Don: on reflection I can't but feel that your silly argument on no·quote·admissible·without·context deserves a bit of the old reductio ad absurdum.

So tell me please: if one sentence is not enough, then how many of a context must be given before an argument from quotation is acceptable? 3 sentences? 10 sentences? 100 sentences? Nothing will do but the entire work even if it's Clarissa or War&Peace?

Oh, come on now, Don...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 04:26 AM

This may not be a neutral site, but it gives examples of the verses you are concerned about.

"The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.   

The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God, however this can work both ways. Most of today's Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:15 AM

And, Don, since we are on this topic of 'context', which you, not I, urge as an essential, I feel no stabs of conscience in reminding that you lot over there incessantly take, not even a sentence but a mere 5 words spoken by the late Lady Thatcher, "no such thing as 'society'", most exquisitely out of context, to make them mean something you are perfectly aware was not her intention at all.

So how about that then?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:17 AM

Indeed Keith, and many if not most Imams begin their prayer service with this invocation:

"Anta mawlana, fanSurna 'Alal Qawmil Kaafiryun"

"[O Allah] You are our Protector, give us victory over the Kuffar [Jews, Christians, Hindus and other non-Muslims]"

This is what Tarek Fatah, indefatigable crusader against Islamization, has to say about it:

"Long before a jihadi picks up an AK47, he or she is imbibed with a false sense of victimhood and hatred towards non-Muslims. That hate is subtle, yet potent. And there are Imams urging the faithful to utter prayers against the Kuffar — Jews, Christians, Hindus and other non-Muslims.

Just the ethics of such hateful sermons and prayers is questionable, if not repugnant.

Never once in any of his sermons did Prophet Muhammad invoke such angry words towards non-Muslims."


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:40 AM

Thanks Bobad.

Jim, do you take issue with this?
Reuters today) - Evidence gathered by French authorities suggests the Muslim convert suspected of stabbing a soldier near Paris was acting in accordance with his religious beliefs, a state prosecutor said after the suspect's arrest on Wednesday.

Prosecutor Francois Molins told a news conference the suspect was seen on video surveillance camera "saying a Muslim prayer" minutes before an attack which came three days after the May 22 murder of a British soldier on the streets of London.

"That leads us to believe he was acting on the basis of religious beliefs," Molins said.


French police have said they believe the attack was inspired by the hacking to death of a British serviceman in southeast London by men shouting Islamist slogans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 08:45 AM

"Jim, do you take issue with this?"
Do you take issue with any of this?

SCRIPTURES OLD TESTAMENT DEUTERONOMY 17
The Fifth Book of Moses Called Deuteronomy
Chapter 17
Those who worship false gods will be put to death—Priests and judges are to determine the hard cases—Kings are not to acquire horses, wives, or gold for themselves—The king must study the laws of God daily.

1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the Lord thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evil favouredness: for that is an abomination unto the Lord thy God.

2 If there be found among you, within any of thy agates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Wonder if any of these terrorist attacks can be described as "Christian".

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3777392.ece
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article/1854/racist-ex-soldier-who-threatened-to-behead-a
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/04/17/298808/exus-soldier-gets-prison-for-mosque-fire/
http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.ie/2011/12/stoke-on-trent-mosque-arsonists-jailed.html
http://www.iengage.org.uk/news/2025-ex-soldier-admits-pigs-head-attack-on-cheltenham-mosque

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 13 - 09:09 AM

I can see what you are getting at, Jim, but did any of the perpetrators of the above attacks justify them by saying they were doing it in the name of Christianity? I must admit I only skimmed the articles but I could see no such reference, in which case they can be called anti-Moslem attacks, but not Christian attacks. OK - The difference may be subtle but I would have no qualms in saying there was a Christian attack if that is what the perpetrator said it was, just as when some of the Islamist attacks were done in the name of Islam they can be described as such.

Just my view of course.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 13 - 09:20 AM

They are definitely hate crimes and if the perpetrators claimed to be acting on their Christian beliefs they could be characterized as Christian terrorism as could any terrorist act committed by religious fanatics in the name of their religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 09:38 AM

Jim, you objected to the suggestion that it was a crime of religion.
My point was that it is pretty much universally accepted as such, as now is the attack in Paris.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 10:02 AM

"I can see what you are getting at, Jim, but did any of the perpetrators of the above attacks justify them by saying they were doing it in the name of Christianity?"
Does it matter?
Breivik made a point of describing himself as a "Christian Militant" - does that make his massacre a "Christian" one?
In the end it doesn't matter a toss.
These ancient rantings have no effect on sane, reasonable people whatever - it is the nutters in any society they incite to acts of hatred, and people who carry out those acts can and have come from any religion race or country.
No - the Woolwich murder was not a political act - it was the work of a number of twisted bastards who justified themselves by claiming religion to be their reason.
Equally twisted are those who attempt to pin these crimes as belonging to this or that particular brand of religion (in this case, somebody who has previously claimed that an entire gender of a racial/religious community is inclined to sexual deviancy because of their "cultural implant) - sickos all!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 10:04 AM

Should read; "No - the Woolwich murder was not a political or religious act"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 10:36 AM

attempt to pin these crimes as belonging to this or that particular brand of religion
We don't.
The perps. and their supporters do.
Why should we not believe them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 11:03 AM

"The perps. and their supporters do."
No, the nutters (on both sides - you and them) do.
Hate merchants all.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 13 - 11:03 AM

"I can see what you are getting at, Jim, but did any of the perpetrators of the above attacks justify them by saying they were doing it in the name of Christianity?"
Does it matter?
Breivik made a point of describing himself as a "Christian Militant" - does that make his massacre a "Christian" one?
In the end it doesn't matter a toss.


1. Yes it does matter. If people say they are committing a crime in the name of (enter your own whatever) then it is fair to say it is a (whatever) crime.
2. As Breivik made the point that he was a Christian Militant the implication was that he committed the crime in the name of Christianity. So, yes, that was a Christian hate crime.
3. In the end it doesn't matter a toss to the victims. But it does matter in the reporting of such crimes as (whatever). If it is an Islamist hate crime, let's call it that. If it is a Radical Christian hate crime. Then call it that as well.

the Woolwich murder was not a political act - it was the work of a number of twisted bastards who justified themselves by claiming religion to be their reason.

The massacre of Jews, Gypsies and Poles in WW2 was also an act of a number of twisted bastards as well. But we waged war on the whole German nation, not just the twisted bastards. When the population fails to control it's own extremists someone else needs to intervene. Whether that should be the UK, the US the UN or someone else is entirely another debate. And, yes, the same should apply to everyone!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 13 - 11:12 AM

IMO Jim's position has now reached the "argumentum ad absurdum" stage, he is now merely trolling and we all know how to deal with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 11:31 AM

Are you suggesting it is not the nutters but the religion that is the cause of these crimes - if this is the case, why is it not true of Christians, or don't they commit hate crimes?
If this is your belief, your argument is no different than Keith's "cultural implant" statement, which leads us to the conclusion that no practicing Muslim can be trusted.
Try some more Bible hate for size - plenty more where that came from.
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
Jim Carrroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:15 PM

They can not all be "nutters" Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:24 PM

"They can not all be "nutters" Jim."
Why not Keith - you get away with it - same bilious hate?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:37 PM

Are you suggesting it is not the nutters but the religion that is the cause of these crimes

I am not sure who that question was addressed to, Jim, but from my viewpoint - No I am not. What I am suggesting is that where nutters commit crimes in the name of a religion or political party then that religion/party needs to address it. Where they will not, or are incapable of doing so, someone else needs to intervene. And once again I am talking about ALL factions here.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:55 PM

Why not Keith - you get away with it
An individual like me might believably be deranged, but you can not dismiss a vast global movement as all afflicted.
You would have to be, er, a nutter Jim.

They are acting on deeply held religious belief.
They believe they are doing the will of Allah, and expect to be rewarded by Allah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 01:23 PM

"vast global movement as all afflicted."
Are you claiming that all Muslims are terrorists - or are you claiming that active Muslim organisations are only involved in what they do because of religious conviction.
Do you not think that Sabra/Shatila, Abu Graib, the Gulf War, illegal settlements, a six-year blockade, weapons of mass destuction, 'Paki' bashing..... and the bigotry and hatred so wonderfully represented by turds like you might not have a smidgeon to do with the resentment and reaction shown by many Muslims?
Nah - perish the thought!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 01:35 PM

Sorry - Dave - didn't see you
I was actually addressing Keith but -
"in the name of a religion or political party then that religion/party needs to address it."
So you are suggesting that if a "militant Christian" like Breivik (or any Christian) runs amok, then it is the responsibility of the church and not the appropriate authorities?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 May 13 - 01:58 PM

Any religious adherents of any persuasion must be (and are) subject to the laws of the land. If their activities involve crime, whether violence, abuse, inciting to hatred and racism, murder, FGM, bigamy, under-age sex etc etc I'd imagine it's the responsibility of the Police to investigate and arrest the offenders, and for the judicial system to judge and/or sentence. This would apply to any members of any religion, in fact to anybody doing anything illegal. One cannot, after all, arrest 'A Religion' can one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 02:55 PM

"One cannot, after all, arrest 'A Religion' can one?"
To some people's great regret.
Can we have a little perspective here.
There are a million and a half Muslims in the United Kingdom - second only to Christians.
Muslim communities are recognised as law-abiding, industrious and least likely to cause offence yet they are the most racially and culturally persecuted people in Britain.
This crime was committed by two people, with a tiny handful of others suspected of complicity.
Terrorist crimes or crimes of race hatred by Muslims in Britain all all but non-existent.
If this murder is in any way inspired by Islam, the British people would be up to their backsides in similar incidents on a regular basis.
"This would apply to any members of any religion"
Not sure about that Eliza.
I could walk into a Christian (Catholic) confessional, confess to having sexually abused a dozen children and suggest it might happen again, and walk out without fear of being either apprehended or reported.
Not sure if this applies to the Muslim faith, nor am I sure how British law views this fact.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 04:08 PM


Are you claiming that all Muslims are terrorists

No.
- or are you claiming that active Muslim organisations are only involved in what they do because of religious conviction.

No.

Am I claiming that active Islamist organisations are only involved in what they do because of religious conviction?
Yes. They say so.
Why should we heed you and ignore them Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:03 PM

""Do you, honestly now Don, not feel this at least a tenable position on my part?""

No sir! I do not.

Returning to my ""somewhat feeble IMO argument"", you may have overlooked the strongest part of it.

I said that the whole passage could equally easily have included an injunction to carry out these actions or an injunction against.

Deviously extracting one sentence could equally be used by a radical to advocate attacks on Christians, or by a racist to denigrate the whole Islamic community.

I do not think this is a weak argument, as we have seen this sentence used for both purposes in the last couple of days.

You have, in fact, made my point very well indeed in your reference to the misinterpretation of the Thatcher quote, though I know such was not your intention. I have been rebutting that interpretation for years, without success.

Once a bigot has made up his mind based on an out of context remark, he simply doesn't choose to hear any rebuttal.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:06 PM

"I could walk into a Christian (Catholic) confessional, confess to having sexually abused a dozen children and suggest it might happen again, and walk out"
.,,.
No you couldn't, Jim. Without your expressing a 'firm purpose of amendment', the priest would be unable to grant absolution. Even I know that, and I am no RC and have never been anything near. You mean well in so many ways, Jim; but o-dear-me you can be so ignorant sometimes...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:13 PM

Thank you for the "sir", Don. There is really no need, my dear fellow!

I think we have taken this particular dispute as far as it can go, and are simply beginning to assert repetitiously. Not something we are ever going to agree about ~~ I think your position absurdly over-generalised; you find my responses uncomprehending. We are not likely to move on from that sort of stalemate, I don't think.

Let's leave it there, shall we?

Best regards

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:18 PM

"but o-dear-me you can be so ignorant sometimes"
And you can be so deviously stupid Mike - as I made plain "without fear of being either apprehended or reported" I was not referring to "absolution" I was pointing out that I would be free to continue abusing children because the priest would be under an obligation not to report me to the authorities - go educate yourself.
"Yes. They say so."
Some make that an excuse for doing so - unless you could point to a universal declaration showing otherwise.
Perhaps you might comment on the statistics I gave.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:39 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:55 PM

Why not Keith - you get away with it
An individual like me might believably be deranged, but you can not dismiss a vast global movement as all afflicted.
You would have to be, er, a nutter Jim.

They are acting on deeply held religious belief.
They believe they are doing the will of Allah, and expect to be rewarded by Allah.
""

So, in this post, you are saying that the whole of global Islam is terrorist out of ""deeply held religious belief"", not just the tiny minority of radicalised nutters.

________________________________________________________________

""Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 May 13 - 04:08 PM


Are you claiming that all Muslims are terrorists
No.
- or are you claiming that active Muslim organisations are only involved in what they do because of religious conviction.
No.

Am I claiming that active Islamist organisations are only involved in what they do because of religious conviction?
Yes. They say so.
Why should we heed you and ignore them Jim?
""

And in this post you have denied claiming that all Muslims are terrorists, and in answer to the second question, you have responded "No", and also "Yes. They say so".

Apart from the fact that your posts reek of anti Muslim sentiment and the concept that Muslim = Evil, do you really have the slightest idea of what you are actually claiming?

It doesn't appear so!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:43 PM

""No you couldn't, Jim. Without your expressing a 'firm purpose of amendment', the priest would be unable to grant absolution.""

What he is talking about Mike, is not absolution, but the hard and fast rule that prevents a priest informing the authorities of details of a confession.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 05:53 PM

So, in this post, you are saying that the whole of global Islam is terrorist out of ""deeply held religious belief"", not just the tiny minority of radicalised nutters.
No don.
I was talking about global Islamism, not global Islam.

They are the ones doing the terrorism, and they say they do it for religion.
Jim says he does not believe that.
How about you Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:15 PM

Jews and Christians have an explicit commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

They do kill, however, and what allows them to do this is the special dispensation they grant themselves. It becomes acceptable when done in the service of the state. Is this what Moses taught? No. Jesus? Double no. This special dispensation is the result of state agendas in collusion with religion leaders themselves. These religious leaders have developed a certain mentality of "I'm a rabbi or a priest whereas you're a soldier." My job is to preach, yours to kill. Of course this is all hypocrisy, but the commandment remains intact.

Islam, on the other hand, says that it is permissable, even desirable, to kill infidels and to commit atrocities against women. It would appear that the vast majority of Muslims and their leaders have granted themselves special dispensation to avoid such acts, but the commandment remains intact.

The difference is in the standard. Make no mistake, Islam is a false religion. What I would like to do is pick up some of you, drop you off in Pakistan, pick you up in about a year (if you're still alive) and see what you have to say then. Some of you hate Jews but others feel compelled to defend who they see as the underdog. Those people need to learn that being the underdog is no guarantee of virtue.

I knew this girl who got involved with a disabled man. He subjected her to hardcore verbal abuse to the point where I believe if he had been physically able to, he would have subjected her to a whole lot worse. Certain people ought not to have certain caoabilities I'd say. As guilty as she felt, she eventually had to walk away. Who was the underdog there? The one who appeared to be at a disadvantage or the one who actually was?

David the Cossack Gnome, take a break:

Ой чий то кінь стоїть


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:19 PM

Make no mistake, Islam is a false religion.

Oh great, another brain-damaged fundagelical fuckwit heard from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:20 PM

""I was talking about global Islamism, not global Islam.""

Oh well that's alright then, providing of course that there is any such thing as global Islamism.

Do you know of any such organisation, or are you just making it up as you go along, as usual?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Lisa
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:40 PM

What a song! About unrequited love. Believe it or not, you don't have to turn to rock for an earful of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 13 - 06:42 PM

"I spent 13 years inside Hizb ut-Tahrir (HT), the global Islamist organisation that first spawned al-Muhajiroun, the banned Islamist terrorist organisation founded by Omar Bakri Muhammad and Anjem Choudary."

This from the account of Maajid Nawaz which I linked to in my post of 28 May 13 - 03:41 PM which you probably either didn't bother reading or read and ignorted because it puts lie to everything you and that other dingbat Carroll are professing.

Nawaz spent thirteen years operating as a radical Islamist (his own words) but, of course, you and that other idiot know that it has nothing to do with Islam so maybe you should let him know that he has been deluded all this time and is really just a "nutter" who has nevertheless gained a law and Arabic degree from The School of African and Oriental Studies and a Masters in political theory from the London School of Economics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 May 13 - 07:13 PM

Meanwhile, MtheGM continues to claim that the Koran says something that it did not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 11:47 PM

If you were a Catholic, Jim, that would not be an option to you. If not, and the priest knew this, he would probably decline to hear your confession. If you pretended to be so in order to get him to listen and then left without appearing to desire absolution, then it is perfectly possible that, after searching his conscience and perhaps consulting his Bishop, he would not consider himself bound by the principle of the secrets of the Confessional and report the matter anyhow. I shouldn't try it if I were you!

I repeat ~~ ignorant!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 13 - 11:53 PM

aRich`rd ~~ Get it into your thick skull, please, that I 'claim', & have claimed, nothing. If you think you can find an explicit 'claim' in anything I have posted re this supposed 'misquotation' of a Shura that we are engaged with, paste it please to demonstrate the truth of your claim. Otherwise just shut the hell up and go away, there's a dear fellow.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Forlorn Lass
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:18 AM

Alas, Jim Carroll only cares for human beings in the abstract. In other words, he loves humanity, it's people he can't stand. Makes me sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:02 AM

So you are suggesting that if a "militant Christian" like Breivik (or any Christian) runs amok, then it is the responsibility of the church and not the appropriate authorities?

No. The authorities need to intervene as well as the church. However, in a lot of countries the Moslem church and the authorities are one and the same thing. Where they are separate, like here for instance, we can have both factions intervene. Remember the Catholic church declaring that it would ex-communicate IRA killers? I do. Has anything similar been done in the name of Islam? Have any of the Islamist authorities arrested and prosecuted known killers? I don't know but would be surprised if we can find any examples of it.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:23 AM

"If not, and the priest knew this, he would probably decline to hear your confession."
I suggest you familiarise with exactly what priests have listened to and granted absolution for - and refused to pass on to the appropriate authorities, in many cases allowing the confessor to continue 'sinning' - you really have to tell me which branch of Specsavers you go to for your rose-coloured spectacles.
Please don't preach to me on a subject that has been a part of my experience for all of my life.
"They are the ones doing the terrorism,"
No they are not - you have described what is happening in Gaza as "terrorism" - it has nothing to do with holy war - it has everything to do with retaliating to a brutally expansionist regime.
The Assad regime is Muslim, as you have pointed out - what is happening in Syria is about suppressing opposition to that regime - nothing to do with religion. In fact, up to the end of the present arms embargo the civilised Christian world has continued to sit on its hands and do nothing while the people of Syria are slaughtered, egged on by people like you who have applauded that inaction even to the extent of suggested that the regime be supplied with riot control equipment.
Many of the States that adhere to Sharia law are trading partners with and allies of the west. Within weeks of the beginning of the Arab Spring protests the British Prime Minister was hosting an arms fair in order to try and sell arms to the same regimes - not a great sign of holy war there.
If these were "holy wars", the streets of countries like Britain with high immigrant Muslim populations would be awash with blood a point you continue to ignore, as is your wont   
The only holy war here is the one being fought by people like yourself with your blind racist/cultural hatred of one religious group, while at the same time giving wholesale support to a real live-'n-kicking terrorist State heavily influenced by religious extremists.
"Alas, Jim Carroll only cares for human beings in the abstract."
Whatever you say anonymous guest - but at least I'm not attempting to use the killing of a young soldier as a platform for Islamophobia - which I have little doubt you regard as a laudable way to behave.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:49 AM

Hi, unnamed Guest of Cossack or Russian extraction. I understand your point if you are indeed Cossack. My paternal Grandfather was born in what is now Krupotkin on the banks of the Kuban river and eventually became a Russian Orthodox priest in England. My father was brought up in Poland after my Grandparents were kicked out of Russia on religious grounds. The hatred the Cossacks hold for Moslems (or Mohamedans as my Father calls them) is legendary and considering that they were often fighting for the same resources in a harsh environment I believe the hatred was not always religious.

I believe you are perfectly entitled to your views on other religions. As long as those views have not and will not result in violence then Greg F's comment is both uncalled for and insulting to all those who do have a strong faith - In all religions. I do like the song as well, is it you? I lost my Russian language when I was around 5 so thanks to Guest, Lisa for the explanation as well.

One question though - What do I need to tale a break from?

Na zdorovje (Yes, I know it is old fashioned but remember I have not spoke true Russian for 55 years!)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 05:13 AM

Don.

Oh well that's alright then, providing of course that there is any such thing as global Islamism.

If you are really so profoundly ignorant, you have no hope of following never mind participating in this discussion.
Look it up Don dear, or leave it to us.

Jim,
what is happening in Syria is about suppressing opposition to that regime - nothing to do with religion.

I do not believe that you are that ignorant and have really not been following these events.
Assad's ruling clan is a minority Shia sect, and the opposition Sunni.
The opposition receives support from Sunni Gulf states and Assad gets help from Shia Iraq, Iran and Hezbollah.
It is a sectarian religious war that has already spread to Iraq and beginning in Lebanon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 05:19 AM

Syria's deepening sectarian war bleeds across borders

Tucson Citizen ‎- 47 minutes ago

Syria's deepening sectarian war bleeds across borders - News from USA TODAY.
Rockets strike Beirut suburb as sectarian strife flares in Lebanon, Syria


CNN‎ - 3 days ago
Syrian rebels threaten Hezbollah as sectarian conflict intensifies


Washington Post‎ - 1 day ago


Sectarian attacks in Iraq stoked by spillover from Syrian war | World ...



www.guardian.co.uk › World news › Iraq‎



May 21, 2013 – Ability of prime minister Nouri al-Maliki to contain crisis may hinge on events beyond his control.


Rockets hit Beirut area as sectarian strife flares in Lebanon, Syria ...



www.cnn.com/2013/05/26/world/meast/lebanon-violence

4 days ago – Four rockets struck strongholds of the militant group Hezbollah in Lebanon on Sunday, highlighting fears of sectarian tensions in the country ...


Syria's deepening sectarian war bleeds across borders - USA Today


www.usatoday.com/story/news/.../2013/.../syria-sectarian.../237008...


by Oren Dorell7 hours ago – The Syrian civil war is increasingly drawing in nations across the Middle East, in a regionwide conflict that threatens to pit world powers against ...



Syria conflict spills over into Lebanon with more sectarian fighting ...



►►


www.euronews.com › News

6 days ago
world news - Gunmen have been seen prowling through a Sunni district of the Lebanese city of Tripoli after ...

More videos for 2013 sectarian syria »


Syrian rebels threaten Hezbollah as sectarian ... - Washington Post



www.washingtonpost.com/...syrian...sectarian.../2013/.../bb57fe86-c7a2-11...

2 days ago – Shooting, rocket attacks reflect growing tension in Lebanon as factions take sides in Syria's civil war.


Sectarianism in Iraq stoked by Syrian war - Washington Post



articles.washingtonpost.com › Collections

May 16, 2013 – BAGHDAD — A recent tide of sectarian tensions that erupted into the worst violence seen in Iraq in five years is testing the government of Prime ...


5/16/2013: SYRIA: The Sectarian Divide - USCIRF



www.uscirf.gov › News Room › Press Releases‎



May 16, 2013 – May 16, 2013 | By USCIRF. WASHINGTON, D.C.– The two-year armed conflict in Syria has left at least 80,000 people dead and more than 5 ...


The Syrian War Is Not Only Sectarian - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the ...



www.al-monitor.com/.../2013/.../syrian-conflict-failed-sectarian-analysis....‎



3 days ago – While many observers have described the Syrian civil war in sectarian terms, this analysis fails to explain many aspects of the current crisis and ...


Battle for Syrian Town Spurs Sectarian Fighting in Northern ...



www.nytimes.com/2013/.../battle-for-syrian-town-spurs-sectarian-fighting-i...

5 days ago – Fighting for the Syrian town of Qusayr has been unusually fierce, and the tenacity of rebels against better-armed opponents has given the battle ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 05:29 AM

Sorry Dave - missed you again.
"The authorities need to intervene as well as the church"
What happened in Woolwich was a crime and as such, has to be dealt with by the law.
Should Woolwich suddenly become involved in a holy war, certainly, the church becomes involved, but despite claims to the contrary, this in not the case, it is a murder carried out by a tiny handful of people from a population of one and a half million (a point that you, along with Keith, continue to ignore) - does any church anywhere excommunicate everybody guilty of a serious crime?
Your comparison with the IRA is facile in the extreme.
The local Muslim leaders where among the first on the scene to express their abhorrence at what had happened in Woolwich, one cleric described it as "an insult to Islam" to make the claims that the killers did.
It seems to me that nothing short of a signed confession of guilt would satisfy some people.
BTW - the same church that used the excommunication card during the 'troubles' is now threatening to excommunicate those politicians who 'vote the wrong way' in the forthcoming vote on pregnancy termination.
As far as I'm concerned, the sooner the church, any church, is totally barred as an organisation from having any influence on national (particularly political) matters whatever, the cleaner will be the air we breathe.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 05:59 AM

tiny handful of people from a population of one and a half million (a point that you, along with Keith, continue to ignore)
Not ignored Jim, acknowledged.
There are only a few thousand Islamists here.
A small minority, but significant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:22 AM

"There are only a few thousand Islamists here."

Where did that figure come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:50 AM

As far as I'm concerned, the sooner the church, any church, is totally barred as an organisation from having any influence on national (particularly political) matters whatever, the cleaner will be the air we breathe.

Absolutely agreed, Jim. Here in England I think we have it. Well, I hope so anyway. Ireland is getting there. What about Iran, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan etc. etc.? That is part of the point I am trying to make. When those authorities unite in getting rid of the interference of the church in their politics then we can eliminate the religious labels applied to them. But they will not. They will continue harbouring criminals and murderers that have committed their crimes in the name of their faith. The other part of the point is that the churches that these people claim to represent - notice I do say claim - need to be seen to act. Not just declare their abhorrence. When the half million (the figure you quote) peaceful Moslems are seen to be acting by, possibly, providing the civil authorities information on radical factions, then there will be no good reason for anyone to promote anti-Moslem feelings. It is no longer enough to sit back and say sorry but it is out of my hands.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 May 13 - 07:46 AM

Hello, the post eater temporarily saved you M the GM.


"Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:58 AM

Don ~~   ...   It is, or was, an accurate quotation from part of The Q'ran so far as I can see.    ...   ".

Were you lying or are you so senile that you are suffering from memory loss?



Off for a nice weekend, so DO continue to be honest while I am not here to monitor you, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:16 AM

"by a tiny handful of people from a population of one and a half million (a point that you, along with Keith, continue to ignore)"
.,,.
I don't think anyone is ignoring that point, Jim; but youl are surely ignoring the consideration that it is not just their numbers, but the effect these individuals have, and their prominence and visibility, that matters. How many did it take to knock the Twin Towers down? 3, was it? I point out again that the statistics are overridden by the point made by Yeats [the greatest of Irish poets so I expect you will love his work as I do], that

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity


It's that passionate intensity that does the damage, not the actual number who possess it. A sort of opposite of the Hegelian idea that at some point a quantative difference will morph into a qualitative one ~~ opposite because here it is the smallness, rather than the largeness, of the numbers at issue.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:23 AM

Ah, Richard, yes, I didn't put that too well did I?

Caught, you might say ✍✍✍☞☞☞☜☜☜

☹☹☹☹☹


Have a good time. I will try harder while you are gone!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:29 AM

Our security services say there are around 2000 individuals who they believe pose a threat and you have to assume they have missed some.
This was all covered earlier in the thread Stu.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:42 AM

The new head of British security service MI5 Jonathan Evans said on Monday that there are at least 2,000 people in Britain who pose a threat to national security because of their support for terrorism.

    In his first public speech, made in Manchester, since taking the job in April, Evans said there had been a rise of 400 since November 2006 and some are as young as 15.

    Calling Islamic extremism the "most immediate and acute peacetime threat" in the 98-year history of MI5, he said "The more that this ideology spreads in our communities, the harder it will be to maintain the kind of society that the vast majority of us wish to live in."
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/06/content_7017305.htm

Key questions about MI5's handling of Michael Adebolajo, the Briton of Nigerian descent, one of Lee Rigby's alleged killers, include its apparent decision not to keep tabs on him after he was arrested in Kenya in 2010 supposedly on his way to train with al-Shabaab, the al-Qaeda franchise extremist group based in neighbouring Somalia.

MI5 has thousands of individuals on its terrorism database. It has always said, notably during the investigation into the 7/7 bombings, that who to keep under surveillance, and how persistently, was a matter of of priorities.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/defence-and-security-blog/2013/may/28/mi5-woolwich-attack-parliament


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:46 AM

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities.
27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.
http://www.scotsman.com/?id=1956912005
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist.html

Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.
http://www.fosis.org.uk/sac/FullReport.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

ICM Poll: 13% of Muslim in Britain support al-Qaeda attacks on America.
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/guardian-muslims-march-2004.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Populus Survey: 18% of British Muslims would be proud or indifferent if a family member joined al-Qaeda.
http://www.populuslimited.com/poll_summaries/2006_07_04_Times_ITV.htm
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Policy Exchange (2006): 7% Muslims in Britain admire al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/libimages/246.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Center for Social Cohesion: One Third of British Muslim students support killing for Islam
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html
http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/pdf/IslamonCampus.pdf

Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

NOP Research: Hardcore Islamists comprise 9% of Britain's Muslim population;
Another 29% would "aggressively defend" Islam;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for religious or political ends acceptable.
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

ICM Poll: 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

GfK NOP: 28% of British Muslims want Britain to be an Islamic state
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Civitas: 1 in 3 Muslims in the UK strongly agree that a wife should be forced to obey her husband's bidding
http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site%20Download.pdf
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

BBC Poll: 1 in 10 British Muslims support killing a family member over "dishonor".
http://www.expressandstar.com/blogs/peter-rhodes/2011/12/28/honour-killing-%E2%80%93-a-stain-on-our-nation/

Two-thirds of young British Muslims agree that 'honor' violence is acceptable.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117003/More-thirds-young-British-Muslims-believe-honour-violence-acceptable-survey-reveals.html

ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for political ends acceptable
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Cossack
Date: 30 May 13 - 10:08 AM

David the Gnome, I meant take a break from the debate to enjoy an old Cossack song by a modern artist. The Cossack heritage has nothing to do with this debate per se. But you don't meet many people who come from that particular background and when you do, it pricks your ears up. I am Ukrainian on my father's side. My people come from Halychyna which is closer to the Carpathian Mountains and Poland than the Cossack lands which are further East and South. However, the most nationalistic Ukrainians are the ones that live in the West and perhaps oddly, they identify with the Cossacks. The real reason why the Ukrainians that live in the East and South identify as Russian is because of extermination and resettlement in Cossack territories. Something very similar happened in Northern Ireland. Similarly, my lowlander Episcopalian Scot grandfather identified with the Highlanders and "Ladies from Hell."

I think this is known as hijacking a thread. Okay, one more:

Nazar Savko


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 10:29 AM

Thanks Cossack - I will indeed take a break and may even watch the Russian Language version of 'Iron and Blood - The legend of Taras Bulba' later :-) Good job it is sub-tiled though! I only know of the atrocities committed in the Ukraine from the book "A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian". Very good book. Treats the subject seriously but wrapped in a very humourous story. Well worth a read if you haven't done so already.

As I said, my Grandfather was from Krupotkin on the Kuban. My Grandmother, however, was from Bialystok - Which is in the North East of Poland, very close to the Ukraine and Belarus. Oddly enough, and in keeping with the thread, although Grandad was a Russian Orthodox Cossack, during the war he did a lot to help the ghetto-ed Jewish population of Bialystok. I believe it now has a high Moslem population and I suspect if it had been the same in the 1940's he would have done just the same.

Thread drift over.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 13 - 10:41 AM

Great, Bobad - Polls, so it must be true! Ya got any statistics on the number of Muslims who support Manchester United?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 10:55 AM

What have you got Greg?
Nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:02 AM

Statistics are we we have, I'm afraid. Polls may not be completely accurate but they provide at least some measure of opinion. Without them all we have is supposition and guesswork.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:06 AM

"The new head of British security service MI5 Jonathan Evans said on Monday that there are at least 2,000 people in Britain "
Fascinating choice of link here Keith - China - weren't they the ones....?
Never mind - your posting is a typical distortion of what is being discussed here.
Nowhere in Evan's speech does he mention an Islamic threat to Britain - the term is used only once in a reference to "a significant number of young people who have gone to fight in the Yemen" - no mention of how many.
The thrust of his speech is aimed at the threat from the IRA, not from Muslims in Britain.
Also directed at Bobad's 'formidable' list.
No matter what 'facts' have been gathered regarding British Muslims' opinion poll responses, the fact remains that the Muslim communities in Britain are recognised as law-abiding, industrious and least likely to cause offence yet they are the most racially and culturally persecuted people in Britain.
I have no idea of where you gathered your information from, but I was fascinated to find that they are all to be found, using similar wording as you have provided, on the WHITE PRIDE site
Dave:
"When the half million (the figure you quote)"
The figure I quoted was one and a half million.
"then there will be no good reason for anyone to promote anti-Moslem feelings."
There is never a reason to promote anti-any race or religious feeling, certainly not when those who might be involved represent such a minuscule percentage of the Muslim population, but the again, when did racist bigots ever need a reason? (I am in no way suggesting that you are one of those)
Your suggestion of reporting those who are involved in terrorist activity presumes that there are enough of them to have come to general notice - there is no evidence that there are.
The MI5 record speaks for that fact - one of the killers was first asked for information regarding those who might be involved in terrorism, he was then offered a job working for them and finally they lost interest in him altogether - not so much 'after the horse has bolted', rather pretending there was a horse in there in the first place - covering their arses maybe?
"What about Iran, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan"
We can only hope they do get their act together, but as far as the situation stands in Britain, the last thing you do to avoid a holy war at home is to demand that a church takes action on what is a criminal act.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:18 AM

""Don.

Oh well that's alright then, providing of course that there is any such thing as global Islamism.
If you are really so profoundly ignorant, you have no hope of following never mind participating in this discussion.
Look it up Don dear, or leave it to us.
""

Unpleasant little wanker at times, aren't you.

Islam is global, but militant radical Islamism seems to consist largely of isolated small groups gathered around so-called Imams whose attitudes are about as xenophobic as yours, and who use cherry picked segments from the Q'ran to incite disaffected idiots to violent action.

You even admitted yourself that it amounts to 2000 or so in this country who are a potential threat according to MI5.

It isn't close to becoming even a national movement within any Western country, let alone a global one. If it were, we would have streets running in blood, and if the inane mumblings of Islamophobes like yourself are given the slightest credence, we one day may.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:33 AM

There are in fact 2.8 million Muslims in the UK now of which, our resident Islamophobe admits, some 2000 are being watched by MI5 as a potential (not definite) threat.

This he claims is a ""small but significant"" number. He also mentions a figure of half a million peaceful Muslims.

So obviously he knows even less about maths than he does about demographics.

Perhaps he would enlighten us with his threat grading of the other 2,298,000

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:38 AM

Unfortunately, Dave, some of the polls - depending on how constructed and administered and to whom can be worse than guesswork at times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:11 PM

The apologists demand figures then reject them when provided - anyone surprised?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:15 PM

"The apologists demand figures then reject them when provided - anyone surprised?"
The Islamophobes dredge up a bunch of 'facts' from a self confessed white supremist site and act affronted when they are called into question - anybody surprised?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:56 PM

Every one of those figures is referenced, which are from a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 01:01 PM

"When the half million (the figure you quote)"
The figure I quoted was one and a half million.


Sorry, Jim. I wasn't really paying attention. I have a tad of ADD, especially where rants are concerned!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 01:27 PM

"Every one of those figures is referenced, which are from a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site"
And every one of them contradict the information coming fro elsewhere, including the speech from the MI5 head.
Whatever opinions your polls come up with, in reality the Muslim population in Britain is not officially considered a security threat.
How about some other gathered information - from neither white supremist not Muslim site in return.
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/
https://news.liv.ac.uk/2013/02/08/the-liverpool-view-islamophobia-in-contemporary-britain/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/the-shameful-islamophobia-at-the-heart-of-britains-press-861096.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shahnaz-taplinchinoy/in-britain-politics-of-is_b_908119.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 13 - 02:11 PM

"the Muslim population in Britain is not officially considered a security threat."
,..,
A great comfort to Mrs Rigby, we may be sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 02:47 PM

"A great comfort to Mrs Rigby, we may be sure."
Care to offer some comfort to all those who have suffered and even died at the hands of racist bigots?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:27 PM

I've been trying to stay out of this, but if you want a sure fire wooden nickel posting just trust to trusty old MtheGM.

I haven't got time to blue clicky it, but follow this link http://pastebin.com/Mbc0r8rD for a list of several hundred crimes perpetrated by members of the English Defence League. Does that mean we're all tarred with the same brush because we're all white? No it does not.

The racist murderers of Anthony Walker and Stephen Lawrence were likewise all white. Does the fact they posed a security risk to the Black community mean the rest of us do also? It most certainly does not.

David Copeland, who planted three nail bombs in London was/is a militant fascist and white supremacist whose murderous deeds must surely place him right alongside the most evil of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. Does that make me a threat to UK security because we share the same colour skin, social culture and probably religious background. I most sincerely hope not.

Let's get this straight. The vast majority of Islamic people are not bombers or murderers or terrorists. They are decent hard working respectable people and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the fanatics and nutters as a "security threat". Neither do they deserve the persecution which the vermin of the British far right are currently attempting to inflict on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:39 PM

where is don quixote when we need him


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 04:14 PM

militant radical Islamism seems to consist largely of isolated small groups gathered around so-called Imams
It might seem so to you, but that is shite.
Have you never heard of Al Qaeda, Taleban, Al shabab, Boko Haram, the recent war in Chad,.....
I did suggest you try looking it up Don, but you chose to demonstrate your profound ignorance to the world again.
I was being nice to you, silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 04:19 PM

So Carroll you were lying about the data coming from a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site". You were just trying to associate me with white supremists (sic) to try and smear me you lying piece of shit. I have never once in my life accessed a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site" but you seem to have some familiarity with them. Is that where you and your fellow travelers congregate to discuss the "Jewish problem"? You are scum. Fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 04:19 PM

Jim, while I am sure you are right on the subject of Islamaphobia, you are barking up the wrong tree with the opinion polls. Most of the stats detailed above were collected either by NOP or ICM research. Regardless of whether the polls were published on a white supremacist site, emel or the beano, they are, or seem to be, genuine opinion polls. None of the articles you quote refute their findings. They simply repeat things that you have said before and most of us already know without producing any facts or figures. You may well be right if you say the opinion polls are incorrect, but to argue against published figures without any proof is futile.

Fred, thanks for chipping in. Your posts are usually reasonable and well thought out. What you are saying is very true but, unless I am mistaken, no-one has said that all Moslems are terrorists or murderers. I cannot speak for others but my view is the same as yours. The vast majority are decent, hardworking, respectable people. However, the vast majority of Germans in the 1930s were the same. They didn't stand up to the thugs and look what happened. I am sure the vast majority of Cambodians were decent folk but in the 1970s an extremist faction gained power and the rest is history. I was pleased at the arrival of the 'Arab Spring' where those ordinary Moslems said enough is enough of the despotic and fanatical leaders. But it seems to have lost momentum. We need to help them in any way we can to rid themselves of those who approve of and sanction murder. Just like we need all the help we can get to rid ourselves of our warmongering politicians - of all parties!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 04:29 PM

Jim, this survey is reported on the BBC site.
Not too white supremacist I hope!

•36% of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared with 19% of over-55s
(20% would be about 500 000 people)

•59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared with 28% who would prefer to live under Sharia law.
(28% is about 700 000)

•7% "admire organisations like al-Qaeda that are prepared to fight the West". 13% of 16 to 24-year-olds agreed with this statement compared with 3% of over-55s
(7% is about 170 000 people!)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6309983.stm


MI5 knows of about 2000 sufficiently dangerous to keep a file on each of them but can not watch so many.
They have used that to convict many gangs now in the planning stages of mass murder attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:01 PM

Gee thanks Fred. Always an honour to be singled out by one of your sparkling intellect. An intellect which would no doubt have us believe that all that litany of nasty white murderers you have dug up must have done it because they had been urged on by the recalcitrant rectors and vindictive vicars of their parishes, citing --

now remind me, which chapters and verses of Leviticus or Deuteronomy would it have been?;

-- just the way all these Islamist blowers up and hackers down have been told it is their duty to Allah to do it by their imams, citing most precise Surahs from their holy book...

We all know that consistency in argument is your speciality and watchword [when not distracted into threatening severe physical violence against octogenarians for unfortunate slips of memory for which they have already apologised]; so, for the sake of your own consistency, that must be your point, mustn't it?

Regards

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:30 PM

Fred.
The vast majority of Islamic people are not bombers or murderers or terrorists. They are decent hard working respectable people and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the fanatics and nutters as a "security threat". Neither do they deserve the persecution which the vermin of the British far right are currently attempting to inflict on them.

All of that is true.
Not one person here has disputed any of those obvious, self-evident truths.
So, why did you feel the need to post it Fred?

Now what is your opinion of the Woolwich incident Fred?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:34 PM

Sorry.
Fred.
The vast majority of Islamic people are not bombers or murderers or terrorists. They are decent hard working respectable people and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the fanatics and nutters as a "security threat". Neither do they deserve the persecution which the vermin of the British far right are currently attempting to inflict on them.

All of that is true.
Not one person here has disputed any of those obvious, self-evident truths.
So, why did you feel the need to post it Fred?

Now what is your opinion of the Woolwich incident Fred?
Were they motivated by any religious beliefs they might have held?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:56 PM

"So, why did you feel the need to post it Fred?"

Allow me to offer an opinion on that question. He, like a few others on this thread, is attempting to conflate the opposition to Islamism with antipathty towards Muslims in general. Why they do this is a mystery to me as no one here (a couple of anonymous cranks excepted) have said or even implied that "the vast majority of Islamic people are bombers or murderers or terrorists". It is my belief that they are either seriously misinformed on the subject of militant Islamism or they are suffering from some sort of holier-than-thou complex.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:45 AM

I like that, Bobad. I'm going to the doctor to see if he will confirm HTT complex :-)

Seriously though, you have something there. I suspect I will now be classed as a rampant right wing, Islamaphobic, child molesting fiend. Ah well, here goes anyway.

I have agreed over and again that the majority of Moslems are ordinary folk, just like you and I. Just like everywhere else there is good and bad in all cultures and it is my belief that the vast majority of ALL people are good. However, the minority that cause the issues are usually the the bad ones. Because the rest of us are too hard-working, polite and decent we do not complain too much and we would certainly never act against the bad ones even though we can see it is bad. They have been very clever, those bad ones, in as much as they have established that if you are against them, you must be against everything admirable they stand for. If you are anti-EDL, you are anti English. You would have us enslaved by a foreign power and all Morris dance would be replaced by satanic rites. If you are against the Imams who preach hate and incite murder, you must be anti-Islam, you want to cut the nadgers off every Moslem and turn mosques into bingo halls.

Trouble is now that a lot of ordinary folk have become indoctrinated in this philosophy. A lot of people believe the right wing nutters. A lot of people believe the manipulative Imams. Going back to something I said earlier, we have seen it happen before. A lot of people in pre-war Germany believed that if they were anti National Socialist (I will not mention the other N word for fear of invoking Godwins law) they were anti German and unpatriotic. We must make sure that it never happens again. In any society. It is up to us decent hard-working ordinary folk to stop the nutters taking over the asylum. Again. If we need help to do it then I would hope that the ordinary decent folk all over the world will help. If anyone else needs help, like the hard-working English Moslems, then we should help them too. Without fear of being accused of hate crimes.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:50 AM

" He, like a few others on this thread, is attempting to conflate the opposition to Islamism with antipathy towards Muslims in general"
If you put a minute handful of incidents down to the religion of an entire immigrant population of Britain IT IS ANTIPATHY TOWARDS MUSLIMS IN GENERAL - HOW CAN IT NOT BE? THESE PEOPLE ARE MUSLIMS
By blaming their religion for this incident, you point the finger at the British Muslim population, just as Keith's disgusting 'cultural implant' claim points the finger at every single male Pakistani - an enemy within, as the lady put it.
You have turned a thread on the horrific murder of a soldier into an Islamophobic diatribe - as if there haven't been enough such similar diatribes on this forum lately (all dominated by the usual suspect(s).
Bobad's list goes back to 2004, yet the position has not changed regarding British Muslims behaviour since then - they remain the most law abiding, industrious and unobtrusive cultural group in Britain, they also remain the most persecuted - and shit like this fuels that persecution.
Whatever Bobad's opinion polls say, the Muslim communities in Britain are not a threat and not considered a threat (despite claims to the contrary) except by the lynch-mob mentality that would make them one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:04 AM

If you put a minute handful of incidents down to the religion of an entire immigrant population of Britain IT IS ANTIPATHY TOWARDS MUSLIMS IN GENERAL

How can you say that, Jim? You have said over and over in many threads that the English are, in general, racist. You have stated quite categorically that, due to incidents you have witnessed, you know that the English are racist. Yet when someone says that these bombers and murderers, that claim they are acting for Islam, are Moslems, you assume that we are against all Moslems. Sorry, but you are becoming that entrenched in your apparent hatred of some of the posters on here that your arguments are becoming nonsensical and hypocritical.

When one's reason goes out of the window there is no point trying to reason with them.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:07 AM

A suggestion that was made higher up this thread and dismissed out of hand by our resident Islamophobe.
It was also discussed last night on Question time - and recieved with surprising unanimity.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/29/britain-wars-terror-islamophobia
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:29 AM

Muslims 'the most law abiding, industrious and unobtrusive cultural group in Britain' - J Carroll [who else?!]
.,,.,.
Don't you love that 'unobtrusive'?

If that's what they are, then where have all these threads full of such nonsense from the egregious JC come from? Why has anyone OPd them, posted to them?

'Unobtrusive', eh. As 'unobtrusive' as the Shard...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:56 AM

""The apologists demand figures then reject them when provided - anyone surprised?""

I just gave you census figures, and this is the best answer you have?

It would seem that your comment is correct,......for Israeli apologists.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:26 AM

""Sorry.
Fred.
The vast majority of Islamic people are not bombers or murderers or terrorists. They are decent hard working respectable people and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the fanatics and nutters as a "security threat". Neither do they deserve the persecution which the vermin of the British far right are currently attempting to inflict on them.

All of that is true.
Not one person here has disputed any of those obvious, self-evident truths.
So, why did you feel the need to post it Fred?
""

Maybe because of the following comment from you encompassing the whole worldwide Muslim community?

""An individual like me might believably be deranged, but you can not dismiss a vast global movement as all afflicted.
You would have to be, er, a nutter Jim.

They are acting on deeply held religious belief.
They believe they are doing the will of Allah, and expect to be rewarded by Allah.
""

Oh look, somebody is disputing those obvious, self-evident truths.

Guess who!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:27 AM


A suggestion that was made higher up this thread and dismissed out of hand by our resident Islamophobe.

"Islamophobe" is a lie, but I will dismiss it again.
These two disagreed with aspects of government policy just like all the rest of us do.
Unlike the rest of us, they chose to express it by running a car into an off duty soldier and then trying to behead him with meat cleavers.

That does not come from politics but from religious fervour.
It is what Islamist groups like Al Qaeda do.

Most Muslims are decent people and hate such behaviour, but around 7% "admire" it.
A small minority but a significant number of people.
About 170 000 in Britain.

The joke is that although Muslims are indeed being slaughtered in hundreds every day "in their lands," it is not us or any Westerners doing it.
It is other Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:30 AM

Don.

Oh look, somebody is disputing those obvious, self-evident truths.

Guess who!


As we have just been saying, none of us can guess Don.
Certainly it is no member of Mudcat.
You are lying and smearing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:45 AM

""Have you never heard of Al Qaeda, Taleban, Al shabab, Boko Haram, the recent war in Chad,.....
I did suggest you try looking it up Don, but you chose to demonstrate your profound ignorance to the world again.
I was being nice to you, silly.
""

You are full of these stupid little non sequiturs, aren't you smartarse?

I suggest you do more, and better research. It might save you from making a bigger fool of yourself than you have already.

You may then be able to distinguish between tribal groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and terrorist organisations in the wider scene.

You will also find that Al Qaeda is not an organisation, but a number of disparate groups in different countries, acting independently, but following broadly, the utterances of Osama Bin Laden.

Theree is no actual worldwide Islamist organisation. There are no Islamist organistaions in Western countries which qualify as national.

If any such existed in reality, rather than in the paranoid dreams of xenophobes, then the streets would indeed be running red with blood.

Whatever spurious claims and unverifiable opinion polls you put up, the fact remains that MI5 are monitoring just 2000 individuals, who might at some future time constitute a threat, or might not!

Some global conspiracy.............NOT!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:50 AM

""Guess who!

As we have just been saying, none of us can guess Don.
Certainly it is no member of Mudcat.
You are lying and smearing.
""

On a scale of one to ten.

Reading 5
Comprehension 2

The quote was from one of YOUR posts, and if you had read the whole of mine you would have known that!

Sheesh
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:55 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:55 PM

Why not Keith - you get away with it
An individual like me might believably be deranged, but you can not dismiss a vast global movement as all afflicted.
You would have to be, er, a nutter Jim.

They are acting on deeply held religious belief.
They believe they are doing the will of Allah, and expect to be rewarded by Allah.
""

Here is the basis of the lying smear.

No member would? Well, you did!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:57 AM

A brave British woman shows why Nobel Laureate Wole Soyinka is right when he calls England a 'cesspit' breeding Islamists


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:05 AM

Re several of the above posts. If you think there's no-one out there (or maybe even on this thread) who isn't blaming the entire Muslim population for the death of Lee Rigby, think again.

Perhaps you haven't noticed the newspaper reports but the entire British far right has been mobilising its forces in hatred of the Muslim population for over a week now. Tomorrow, one of the biggest such organisations is organising a march/motorcade (festooned with swastikas, I shouldn't wonder) from Woolwich to Lewisham Islamic Centre. Why Lewisham Islamic Centre? Because their presence on the steps of that building, plus their inflammatory hate filled speeches, will be specifically designed to provoke a backlash among the Muslim community. The mobilisation time is 13-00, if anyone wants to go along and make effective use of the English right of free speech. But God help you if they get hold of you when the police aren't around.

I don't what any of the other sick sad sods of the far right are doing, but I do know that the English Defence League is mobilising no less than 60 demonstrations across the country. This is in addition to the dozens they've already held, and at each demonstration the message will be the same. "Packies out!" And God help anyone they run into who is not of the same skin colour as them, or the same sexual orientation, or the same religion or political persuasion. God help us all in fact, because there is no doubt that the far right see this as their Kristallnacht and they will use it to whip up as much hatred and bloodshed as they possibly can.

Keith A. Now what is your opinion of the Woolwich incident Fred?

Absolutely sickening and appalling. I hope the perpetrators are banged up where they belong for the maximum sentence the court can hand down. My concern lies not with the barbarians who did the killing, but with all the innocent people who didn't.

Sorry M, I just can't follow your logic. Who said anything about recalcitrant rectors and vicars? And while you're at it, when have I ever threatened anyone on this site with "severe physical violence".


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:07 AM

Islamism is not a single organisation, but it is a vast global movement as I said Don.
I have never made an anti-Islamic post.
That is a lying smear that you and Jim fall back on because you have nothing else.

"They are acting on deeply held religious belief.
They believe they are doing the will of Allah, and expect to be rewarded by Allah"

That is not Islamophobic, but a factual observation which they themselves would and do endorse.
I have stated enough times that they are in a small minority of Muslims, but you choose to ignore that.
Why Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:18 AM

Fred: You threatened ME, in most truculent and menacing tones, when I got mixed up on another thread and attribd something Jim had said to you. If you have forgotten, I haven't. You will find it if you go thru your posted threads on your personal page. It wasn't that long ago.

My logic is that the minority of Muslims who are Islamists are urged into their violent acts by their imams; whereas those white murderers you so carefully catalogued had NOT been so influenced by their rectors & vicars, had they? So the Islamists are a concrete group similarly motivated by the same influences, whereas the white lot you adumbrated were a completely discrete grouping with no common factor but the commission of a particular offence. So your analogy as to the motivations of the two groups was thoroughly forced & factitious, wasn't it?

Got it now?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:42 AM

"I just gave you census figures, and this is the best answer you have?"
No - you've had the response to your list of opinion polls - no evidence whatever that they are in any way in indication of Muslim behaviour in Britain - doesn't get any plainer than that.
"Islamophobe" is a lie, but I will dismiss it again."
'Course you will Keith - and you will continue to show it to be the case on every relevant and irrelevant thread on this forum.
To describe a whole cultural gender as potential pervs is as 'phobic' as it gets and it sums up perfectly the knuckles-along -the-ground attitude of every goose-stepper who seeks to make the lives of 'different' others miserable.
"About 170 000 in Britain."
Another figure out of the air - just like your mythical 2,000 potential Muslim threats to security - and please don't say you didn't claim them to be Muslim - you produced that on a thread discussing.
These figures are totally meaningless unless they are acted on, and considering the level of racism swilling around, I'm surprised they aren't higher.
What a pathetically benighted little band of holy warriors - you really`should decide each day whose turn it is to use the brain!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:45 AM

M. I did not threaten you with "severe physical violence". I said that if we ever met I'd give you a hard time you wouldn't forget in a hurry. I was talking about an attack of the verbals, not a physical attack. In view of what you accused me of, I consider that was a prefectly justifiable reponse.

The fact that you blamed me for something Jim Carroll said, and then completely distorted what he actually said, so that it made me sound like some sort of anti-Jewish fascist, was a bit low even by your standards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:56 AM

Should Woolwich really influence policies on another continent?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:38 AM

If you think there's no-one out there (or maybe even on this thread) who isn't blaming the entire Muslim population for the death of Lee Rigby, think again.

I don't believe anyone thinks that, Fred. We know that there are people out there who would be happy to wipe out all Moslems. Just as there are Moslems who would like to wipe out all Christians. It just needs to be stated, yet again, that there is no evidence of it on this thread. I challenge anyone to find anyone saying they blame the entire Muslim population for this attrocity.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:49 AM

"I don't believe anyone thinks that"
Yes they do - blame the religion and you blame everybody who follows that religion.
Re earlier comment about British racism - I suggest you Google "is Britain racist" and come back and tell me it is only my opinion.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:51 AM

I wonder how people would feel if clerical abuse was described as "Catholic"?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:15 AM

You have it the wrong way round, Jim

Fred : If you think there's no-one out there (or maybe even on this thread) who isn't blaming the entire Muslim population for the death of Lee Rigby, think again.

My response : I don't believe anyone thinks that, Fred.

IE - I don't believe anyone thinks there's no-one out there blaming the entire Muslim population etc. Simples!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:23 AM

Oh, but I do dispute the claim blame the religion and you blame everybody who follows that religion. BTW.

I blame the Catholic church for the abuse scandal because it is some of the leaders of that church that covered it up for so long. I don't blame the entire Catholic population.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:50 AM

To describe a whole cultural gender as potential pervs

Same tired old lie.
You have been pushing it for years Jim, but anyone who cares knows the truth.
.
"About 170 000 in Britain."
Another figure out of the air - just like your mythical 2,000 potential Muslim threats to security


170 000 is about 7% of 2.5 million. The survey quoted by BBC said 7% of British Muslims "admired" Al Qaeda.

The figure of 2000 has come from the security services. I provided quotes from head of MI5.
"out of thin air" was not true Jim.
Another lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:50 AM

Other catters on the thread, as well as me, read it as a physical threat, Fred. It occurred after I had apologised for the confusion. You made no disclaimer as to its being the physical threat that I and others had interpreted as was made manifest by our responses. If you were merely talking verbals, then you would be well aware that I could give back as hard a time as I got; but when I pointed out that, at 81, I would hardly be a match for you (which would not have been the case in the event of mere verbals), you left it at that and in no way modified or qualified the threat you had made. Just go back to that thread & look again if you would have the goodness. You will see that you are being, belatedly, merely disingenuously evasive.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:15 AM

Commentator Emma-Kate Symons of The Australian Financial Review contrasts French and British response to Islamist terrorism. She includes this quote from my friend Tarek Fatah: "The fact these terrorists are motivated by one powerful belief – the doctrine of armed jihad against the "kuffar" (non-Muslims) – is disingenuously denied by Islamic clerics and leaders. As a Muslim, I can say without fear, the latest terror attack has a basis in Islam and it's time for us Muslims to dig our heads out of the sand".

Read it here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:49 AM

"Same tired old lie."
Yup - certainly is, but I've come to expect nothing else from you - good job it's archived.
"The figure of 2000 has come from the security services."
Won't bother asking for a link, but that would be the same security services that tried to get information from one of the killers, offered him a job, then lost interest in him wouldn't it?
"The fact these terrorists are motivated by one powerful belief..."
Wonder why all this isn't obvious in a population of 2.5 million - strange that!
"I blame the Catholic church"
But you aren't blaming the Muslim church; you are blaming the Muslim religion.
"I don't believe anyone thinks there's no-one out there blaming the entire Muslim population"
Ho hum - to claim it the fault of the religion you are casting aspersions on everybody who follows that religion - double simples.
"2000"
The figure refers to all terrorist threats in Britain, the upsurge in IRA activity being easlily the front runner - Islam gets one single mention in the MI5 speech - as you rightly say - "another lie".
And so ad infinitum.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:50 AM

BTW
Shouldn't you be attending to your other Islam hate threads - they've disappeared
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:53 AM

FRED: Here is your post on the Thatcher Obit thread 16 apr 13

"Michael Grosvenor Myer has accused me of issuing some kind of "apparent invitation to shoot Jewish refugees ['useful for target practice']". ...
That is an outrageous lie. Unlike Mr Grosvenor Myer, I spend a considerable part of my life fighting racism and fascism and all forms of bigotry …
I am not going to waste my time demanding an apology from this creep. I shall just warn him that if we ever come face to face, he will be extremely sorry."

My reply ~~ "Fred ~~ I withdrew that statement, admitting to having confused two discourses 15 apr 1011pm. Mixed you up with Jim, can't remember why. Sorry!!!
I should nevertheless appreciate not being threatened at my age with physical violence, if you wouldn't mind too much. Don't think I should be a match for a young fellow like you at the age of 81."

You made no reply to that to deny the threat of physical violence, clearly implied by that "if we ever come face to face, he will be extremely sorry." You certainly never even hinted that you had meant verbals only; which would not have made much sense anyhow for reasons given in my last post.

If that was not a threat of physical violence, then it will do very well till a threat of physical violence comes along.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:41 PM

Sorry Jim, but you seem to have lost it altogether.

"I blame the Catholic church"
But you aren't blaming the Muslim church; you are blaming the Muslim religion.
"I don't believe anyone thinks there's no-one out there blaming the entire Muslim population"
Ho hum - to claim it the fault of the religion you are casting aspersions on everybody who follows that religion - double simples.


Part 1. The Catholic Church is, to me, the same as the Catholoc religion. I do not use the phrase 'Moslem Church' because, rightly or wrongly, it does not sound right.

Part 2. Once again you have the wrong end of the stick. Once again I am saying that no-one believes that anyone thinks that no-one is blaming the entire Moslem population. OK - awkward English, my fault, but just read it carefully and you will see we are agreeing. Y
I think you are just arguing because you cannot stop!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:43 PM

No mention of IRA Jim, just the Islamist threat.
You made that up.

The new head of British security service MI5 Jonathan Evans said on Monday that there are at least 2,000 people in Britain who pose a threat to national security because of their support for terrorism.

    In his first public speech, made in Manchester, since taking the job in April, Evans said there had been a rise of 400 since November 2006 and some are as young as 15.

    Calling Islamic extremism the "most immediate and acute peacetime threat" in the 98-year history of MI5, he said "The more that this ideology spreads in our communities, the harder it will be to maintain the kind of society that the vast majority of us wish to live in."

    "As I speak terrorists are targeting young people and children in this country," he said, "They are radicalizing, indoctrinating and grooming young, vulnerable people to carry out acts of terrorism."

    "This year, we have seen individuals as young as 15 and 16 implicated in terrorist-related activity," he said.

    "Al-Qaida has a clear determination to mount terrorist attacks against the United Kingdom," he said. "This remains the case today, and there is no sign of it reducing."

    In Iraq, Algeria and parts of East Africa, especially Somalia, he said, the "al-Qaida brand" had expanded and now posed a threat to Britain.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/06/content_7017305.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:52 PM

again, no mention of IRA.
"Killers Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale were both known to MI5 but were classed as fringe figures who did not merit full scale monitoring.

Express.co.uk quoted Barrett, as saying that it is incredibly hard to find the signals, as to when a person who expresses radical views, flips over to become a violent extremist.

Lord Blair, former Metropolitan Police Commissioner, said there were "thousands and thousands of people who listen to Islamic extremists". MI5 and MI6 must go after the most dangerous suspects who travel abroad for terrorist training, he added.

Lord Blair said the Security Service (MI5) has limited resources, and must prioritise people who are most likely to move from being interested in violent extremism to carrying it out. He said even if they have the resources to do it, they have to have a very high level of suspicion to put surveillance on them.

There are believed to be at least 3,000 people on MI5's database of extremist suspects."

http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/ex-mi6-chief-says-it-s-incredibly-hard-to-stop-terror-attacks-113052600467_1.h


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:25 PM

"Part 1. The Catholic Church is, to me, the same as the Catholic religion"
'Tisn't I'm afraid Dave - the church is the purveyor of the religion - which is a collection of beliefs - look it up and see which of us has "lost it".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:43 PM

Financial Times this time Jim.
Security experts argue that MI5 and the police have records on many Islamist extremists in the UK. In 2007, Jonathan Evans, former head of MI5, said there were at least 2,000 people in the UK who "pose a direct threat to national security and public safety".
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/33d814b4-c3d3-11e2-aa5b-00144feab7de.html#axzz2UtPLvxXr

My figures were correct Jim.
You were wrong to challenge them, and now look silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:45 PM

"A great comfort to Mrs Rigby, we may be sure."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/31/drummer-lee-rigby-inquest-woolwich
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:45 PM

Two British Muslims were killed this week.
In Syria, by Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 02:36 PM

"Part 1. The Catholic Church is, to me, the same as the Catholic religion"
'Tisn't I'm afraid Dave - the church is the purveyor of the religion - which is a collection of beliefs - look it up and see which of us has "lost it".


Sigh. I am obviously suffering from non-understandable syndrome (NUS - Has that been used elsewhere? :-) )

Please read that again, Jim. The Catholic church is TO ME, etc. etc. To you it is something else. I am not going to get into semantics though. Instead, let's just say we speak a different language.

Out of interest though, does this mean you have actually understood what I was very awkwardly trying to say in point 2?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:03 PM

Oh, and just to backup my interpretation, look at the first website I came to when looking up 'church' -

Church
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
        Look up church in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Church is an English word for a Christian religious institution or building but it may refer to:

    1 Religion
    2 People
    3 Places
    4 Popular music
    5 Other uses

So I guess not everyone can separate church from religion as glibly as you can to try and prove a point.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:32 PM

"I am obviously suffering from non-understandable syndrome"
You obviously are suffering from something.
What is under attack here are cultural communities' beliefs which, some people are claiming, make them commit acts of terror.

Dictionary definition.
Religion (ri-Hjan, ra-) n. Abbr. rel., relig.
I.The expression man's belief in and reverence for a superhuman power or power regarded as creating or governing the universe. 2. Any personal or institutionalised system of beliefs or practices embodying this belief or reverence: the Hindu religion.
3. The spiritual or emotional attitude of one who recognises the existence of a superhuman power : - powers.
4. Any objective pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion: A collector might make a religion of his hobby.
5. The monastic way of life. 6. Archaic. Sacred rites or practices. [Middle English religioun, from Old French religion, from Latin religio (stem n gion-), bond between man and the gods, perhaps from religare, bind back : re-, back + ligare, to bind, fasten

The church has a totally different definition and I agree entirely with you about their role in clerical abuse.

Keith
I should really read your own links if I were you.
"There are believed to be at least 3,000 people on MI5's database of extremist suspects."
Nowhere does it specify who or what these "extremist suspects" are.
Those taking a leading part in the Tottenham riots will be on the list.
Left and right wing extremists involved in militant activities, such as 'White Pride' who were organising attacks on Asian communities following the underage sex trials will be on the list.
Those who organise football violence will be on the list.
Those who organise mass protest demonstrations will be on the list.
Those organising the present demonstrations after the Woolwich killing, including those suspected of the attacks on mosques will be on the list.
As I have pointed out Jonathon Evans made his main issue in his speech on terrorism the then recent upsurge in IRA activity, so they will be on the list.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/8008252/Jonathan-Evans-terrorism-speech.html
Evans also makes an issue of spying in his speech; potential spies will be on his list.
Anybody directly associating with terrorist suspects, knowingly or unknowingly will be included, as will any relatives of suspects (of any persuasion) or anybody visiting world trouble spots.
What determines "national security" is, and always has been a catch-all phrase – it included your old friend Jack Straw at one time
Nowhere in either of your links is there any indication of who or how many of this figure are Islamists, Asians, Irish...... whatever
From the beginning you have claimed this figure as referring solely to those belonging to Muslim communities – and it is this that makes you the racist bigot you are.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:27 PM

I did read them Jim.
The context is unequivocal.
I do not care that you deny it. Everyone knows that it refers to Islamist extremists, and you just make yourself even more ridiculous.

And, 170 000 is about 7% of 2.5 million. The survey quoted by BBC said 7% of British Muslims "admired" Al Qaeda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:56 PM

OK, Jim. I agree. Your definitions are obviously more correct and, more importantly, I am stupid and don't understand what is going on in the world. I shall give up quoting any facts and listen only to dogma until such a time that I feel it necessary to commit ritual suicide by listening to Irish folk until my brain leaks out of my ears.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:28 PM

Christianity, or even Catholicism, is not a false religion, however, it has been interpreted falsely by various "Christian" churches throughout history. For example, during the Reformation, many devout Protestants, beginning with the king, were looking to plunder churches and monasteries in the name of religious differences. Monarchs have given these kinds of orders, to kill "infidels"and to pillage religious sites. Ungodly popes have given such orders as well. But not Jesus, nor the apostles, nor the saints, nor any faithful follower of Christ. Anyone can call themselves a Christian. T'ain't necessarily so. Not only that but scores of pagan peoples were forcibly converted to Christianity, tortured and killed in the name of Christ. But let it be said, Jesus did not say to do any of this. In fact, quite the opposite.

Jews, I suppose, are also capable of what others might deem false or extreme interpretations of Judaism, however, most Jews who could be described as religious have no intention of killing and that, incidentally, means they are deadbeats in the eyes of many secular Jews living in Israel. Jews do not proselytize so if they do kill it's not going to be in the name of religion but in the name of statehood only (better known as Zionism). Even in Khazaria there was religious tolerance and diversity inclusive of Judaism, Islam and Christianity as well as Pagan beliefs.

Islam alone says it is justifiable to kill infidels. The command comes straight from the top. So if I have "Islamophobia" there's a good reason for it. Does that mean I want Muslims wiped out? No. Does that mean that I want individual Muslims to be hacked apart in the street? Hell no. Can you imagine what it must have been like to suddenly struck by a car and then set upon and hacked to death by mashugees? Can you imagine the terror he felt in his last few minutes of life. He probably died of a heart attack, poor man. This thread is supposed to be about HIM and his plight, not about the supposed plight of Muslims everywhere. What, no compassion for Lee Rigby?

And to those who are more worried about the potential backlash to Muslims everywhere than the life of Rigby and his family, your sense of justice and humanitarianism is seriously out of whack. HE is the victim here, not them. This man's death should not become merely another occasion for you to spout your pro-Muslim rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:16 PM

""That is not Islamophobic, but a factual observation which they themselves would and do endorse.
I have stated enough times that they are in a small minority of Muslims, but you choose to ignore that.
Why Don?
""

Becvause in that post you chose to separate out the bands of twisted nutjobs who actually do these things and talk about the whole worldwide Muslim community as potential terrorists.

Read your own post, which by the way is something you should make a point of doing anyway, before you hit the submit button.

You expose much more than you realise of your attitudes and prejudices.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 02:54 AM


Becvause in that post you chose to separate out the bands of twisted nutjobs who actually do these things and talk about the whole worldwide Muslim community as potential terrorists.


Complete shite, as is your ludicrous contention that global Islamism is an Islamophobic fantasy.
Would that it were.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:29 AM

"Everyone knows that it refers to Islamist extremists,"
No we don't Keith, it's just that some of you would like to believe we do - just another example of your Islamophobic inventiveness.
I'm sure you can pull something up to prove your case, but please hurry up, none of us are as young as we were - pratt!
"I shall give up quoting any facts"
That's the problem here Dave - we don't have too many "facts" - just hate generated opinions.
I have no love of Islam or any religion; just not prepared to let it be used against people of an entire culture unchallenged.
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/author/islamophobia-watch
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:46 AM

we don't have too many "facts" - just hate generated opinions.

True, Jim. But the facts we do have are disputed without any evidence and, to me, it looks like the hate generated posts are not the ones I think you are referring too.

Last post by me on this thread. No point in trying to reason with the unreasonable.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:53 AM


"Everyone knows that it refers to Islamist extremists,"
No we don't Keith, it's just that some of you would like to believe we do


When you say "we" you mean you.
You are in denial.
The truth is plain to everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:38 AM

"The truth is plain to everyone."
If the Security Services released specified the details of the contents of their data-bases the wouldn't be very 'secure' - would they? - pratt!
As I said, easily solved - show where they have specified who is on their lists.
I really would take a peep at Stella Rimington's memoirs, 'Open Secret' - makes fascinating reading and shows us just how 'private' our private' lives are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:03 AM

Jim Carroll, it's clear you are a cultural relativist and that's okay to a point, however, concern for human rights should trump cultural relativity. I notice that you are never concerned the plight of Muslim women living in such a misogynist culture. You would deny there's any problem eventhough news stories show up on a regular basis describing atrocities against women. Bet if I posted a thread about that you'd be nowhere in sight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:41 AM

Thousands of British Muslims are being watched by police and MI5 under suspicion of possible terrorist involvement, a Scotland Yard chief has disclosed.
Peter Clarke, the head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch, said they were being looked at in the belief that they might be involved directly or indirectly in supporting terrorism.
His estimate was given in an interview for a BBC2 documentary, al-Qa'eda: Time to Talk, which investigates British Muslim connections with the terrorist network and will to be shown tomorrow.
Mr Clarke said: "What we've learnt since 9/11 is that the threat is not something that's simply coming from overseas into the United Kingdom. What we've learnt, and what we've seen all too graphically and all too murderously, is that we have a threat which is being generated here within the United Kingdom."
When asked roughly how many Muslims were being looked at, Mr Clarke said: "I don't want to go down the numbers game, I don't think it's helpful … all I can say is that our knowledge is increasing and certainly in terms of broad description, the numbers of people who we have to be interested in, are into the thousands."http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527844/Yard-is-watching-thousands-of-terror-suspects.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:42 AM

And here are some quotes from the Koran and other authoritative sources that back up what I have been saying:

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause." 
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." 
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed." 
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission." 
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious." 
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." 
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)." 
Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'" 
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them." 
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good." 
Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace." 
Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding." 

Want more? There's plenty where that came from...


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 09:04 AM

Ah, what the hell? Why not post a few more?:

Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth." 
Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, 'Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, 'Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, 'A Little work, but a great reward.'" 
Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'" 
Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights." 
Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place"
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you." 
Qur'an:8:72 "Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so." [Another translation reads:] "You are only called to protect Muslims who fight." 
Muslim:C9B1N31 "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought." 
Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.'" 
Qur'an:8:73 "The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)." 


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 12:28 PM

What? Nothing to say? Jim? Don? Greg F.?

Here's more of what you defend:

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us." 
Qur'an:48:16 "Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture."
Qur'an:48:22 "If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah." 
Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam." 
Qur'an:47:31 "And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters." 
Tabari VI:138 "Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting." 
Tabari VI:139 "Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse 'And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.'" 
Qur'an:9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah's Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah." 
Ishaq:550 "The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling." 
Qur'an:5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment." 
Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory." 
Tabari IX:22 "The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly." 
Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant." 
Tabari IX:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them." 
Tabari IX:88 "Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah's Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger's command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them." 
Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends." 
Muslim:C9B1N29 "Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: 'I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.' Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat."
Muslim:C9B1N33 "The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'" 
Muslim:C10B1N176 "Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: 'There is no god but Allah,' but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: 'Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him?' I said: 'He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.' The Prophet said: 'Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?'" 
Muslim:C20B1N4597 "The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: 'There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'" 
Muslim:C28B20N4628 "Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty." 
Muslim:C28B20N4629 "The Messenger said: 'One who is wounded in the Way of Allah—and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way—will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.'" 
Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 "The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: 'Who is the best of men?' He replied: 'A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah's Cause.'" 
Muslim:C42B20N4684 "A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: 'Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?' The Messenger of Allah said: 'Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.'" 
Muslim:C53B20N4717 "The Prophet said: 'This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.'" 
Bukhari:V5B59N288 "I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, 'We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.' I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him." 
Bukhari:V5B59N290 "The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward." 
Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers." 
Qur'an:2:217 "They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: 'Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah's Cause have the hope of Allah's mercy."
Qur'an:2:244 "Fight in Allah's Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all."

Had enough? Because I've had enough of your BS threads! These people are not victims. They are your self-professed enemies. I am not telling you to hurt them but if defend them you are fools. They will do to you what they did to Drummer Rigby if given half a chance. And if you people start anymore of these BS threads, I'll be back with every one of these hateful passages! Remember, it's not me who came up with them. Try bothering to educate yourselves before you start defending haters. Think about your own defense because you're going to need to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM

Keith,
Your cutting is sis years old (September 2006)- unless the police have arrested and spirited away the thousands they were watching in the intervening period (perhaps to the Guantanamo Bay concentration camp lookalike the Brits have set up in Afghanistan), or waiting until they have a few thousand cells free to house them, it appears they were guilty of nothing more than being suspected by the police - thank you for making my point for me.
Susan,
Re your list from the Koran - we really have been there and done that.
I suggest you look up the long list (and there's many more) of passages in the Christian Bible calling for death to the unbeliever.
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 12:56 PM

False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. It would be the antonym of the mathematical concept of material equivalence. It is achieved by "shifting, imprecise, or tactical (re)definition of a linking term. A common way for this fallacy to be perpetuated is one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.

Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 12:59 PM

Sorry Susan - missed a bit
"Bet if I posted a thread about that you'd be nowhere in sight."
I have no sympathy whatever with how Muslim culture treats women, homosexuals, thieves...... I find it absolutely appalling, but I do not see any of that as a reason to persecute, scapegoat and terrorise ordinary Muslim men women and children for a brutal murder they had no part whatever in.
I see no protest on your part regarding the mosque burnings, huge demonstrations demanding an end to immigration and calls to send immigrants "back to where they came from", and ongoing year-by-year terrorising by right-wing thugs who have made their lives unbearable and dangerous just because they are "different".
A few first hand accounts here
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=11405
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM

So SJ - whan are you going to peruse the Old Testament and extract similar examples and post them? Plenty in there as well. Or do you just want to ignore them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM

Thanks for the definition Bobad. Now, can you show any evidence that it applies, if you can put your Islamophobia aside for as long as it takes to do so?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:24 PM

Some very interesting accounts, Jim, and very disturbing. As you know, my husband is black (first reason for him to be wary) Muslim (second reason) and an immigrant (third). As I said, in our little village he's well known and much liked. He helps in our local church and in the community generally (eg painting the village hall, erecting our huge marquee for village events and being trained as projectionist for a future village hall cinema, to name but a few.) But he and I both realise that this happy state of affairs may not pertain elsewhere in the UK. Not so long ago, he went on a coach trip to Manchester to see Man U's football ground etc. I was worried, and told him to stay close to the other passengers. Luckily he didn't come to any harm. But now he says he'd like to visit London again this time on his own, as I'm not too well and can't travel far at the moment. He even says (and why shouldn't he?) that he'd like to visit one of the big mosques there and worship with 'his brothers'. He's so trusting and innocent and has been 'spoiled' in our Norfolk village. I just pray he'll be alright. People are understandably so incensed at this wicked act of murder, and my husband could easily be targeted coming out of the mosque. He even resembles one of the killers, I'm worried for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:43 PM

""Complete shite, as is your ludicrous contention that global Islamism is an Islamophobic fantasy.
Would that it were.
""

Well old son, if 2000 persons of interest, who MI5 think may be potential trouble or may not, represent the UK branch of worldwide militant Islamism, it looks as though militant Islamism is in a bit of trouble of its own.

Short staffed, as you might say.

Hmmmmm?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:52 PM

""And, 170 000 is about 7% of 2.5 million. The survey quoted by BBC said 7% of British Muslims "admired" Al Qaeda.""

The survey of British Muslims:

1. How many polled?
2. What demographics were included?
3. What precise questions were put to them?

You are clutching at straws even more than usual, given that admiring Al Qaeda doesn't equate to joining, or even supporting it, and you don't even have a clue as to what it is about Al Qaeda they admire.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:55 PM

"I suggest you look up the long list (and there's many more) of passages in the Christian Bible calling for death to the unbeliever." you say to Susan, Jim. Sure enuff. Now point our any country or society in the world where apostasy from Xtianity & conversion to another faith is a capital offence. Or any sort of legal offence for that matter.

Go on.

Just one.

Oh, why do I bother?   Jim's watchword, as everybody knows, is "My mind is made up. Please do not confuse me with facts." Susan, take note.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 02:24 PM

Don, if the survey was not done properly and by a reputable firm, BBC would not publicise its findings.
Don, Global Militant Islam is doing very well.
To suggest otherwise is to entertain us all again with your profound ignorance.

Jim, however many they had on their watch list 6 years ago, it is MORE NOT LESS now.
They put more resources into it posts 7/7, and have foiled an attempt at mass murder at least once every year since, and some years several.
You were wrong to challenge and you now look very silly indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 02:27 PM

What a bunch of dumb asses you are! When you are killed in Judaism it only means that you are no longer recognized! You no longer belong, you are cast out! You don't actually die in the literal sense. You're just not a Jew anymore. Don't shrug it off however because it's a serious matter. Your parents sit shiva for you as if you'd died. You're dead. Non-Jews do this also except they don't name it. The vast majority don't ritualize it.

Now for religious Jews, this could breaking with tradition. For secular Jews, this will be acting in a manner that threatens the welfare of civilized,, hardworking, even gentle people. You would have to be a soul beyond human redemption to merit that sentence of "No, we don't even care about what happens to this person."

Eliza, I have nothing to say to you. Women get a free pass when it comes to matters if the heart. Haven't you ever listened to Billy Holiday? Besides, I've never quite gotten over
Cat Stevens. Guess he gets a free pass too:

Peace Train 


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:01 PM

I'm glad SJ Lepak that you have nothing to say to me, as I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM

Oh sorry. I thought you were the Eliza who said this:

Tragic and horrifying. My husband is a black Muslim, and I'm worried that all law-abiding Muslims might be ostracised for this barbaric act.It is indeed almost incredible that such a thing could take place in Britain in 2013, so I see nothing wrong with the thread title. This time last year, our country was so proud about the Jubilee and our preparations for the Olympics. Visitors of all races and creeds were welcomed and mixed together happily. This event has cast a dreadful cloud over London. So sorry for the young man's family. What a totally needless death.

Btw, I know what you're hiding under the hijab- donkey ears! We have people up in Boston here that are going to live their lives without arms and legs! The average person has nothing to say about what government does. We try but they swindle us. So don't bring it around here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:46 PM

Eliza
"I'm worried for him."
I sincerely hope without cause.
"Now point our any country or society in the world..."
So we have to put the blame for the death of a soldier on the people who have chosen to leave their countries of origin and live in Britain - do I have that right?
I hold no brief whatever for any religion, and am alarmed when they get a foothold in any society - I get tired of repeating that I believe religion - any religion and politics is a toxic mix.
Historically, when any religion weilds political power it invariably abuses it - from Inquisition Spain, Henry VIII's and Cromwell's England right through to 20th century "Holy Ireland" with its Magdalene Laundries and clerical abuses (not to mention 21st century Vatican continuing cover-up of those abuses)
In Ireland at present we are in the middle of a "to terminate or not to terminate a non-viable pregnancy" battle, following the death of a young woman who was refused one - I believe a similar dispute is taking place in El Salvador (?) too..   
I am in no way comparing Christianity with Islam, favourably or otherwise, I'm simply pointing out that we can all throw about examples of violent and inhuman demands from our holy books.
I hope, though certainly will not live long enough to see the time all religion becomes a matter of personal choice and not something imposed on human beings from birth by a self-appointed guardian of our souls".
"it is MORE NOT LESS now"
THEN PRODUCE SOME GENUINE FIGURES TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM INSTEAD OF MAKING THEM UP TO SUIT YOUR BIGOTRY
I suggest that anybody left with any genuine interest in this subject
other than to use the body of a dead soldier as an Islamophobic soapbox, read through the reasoned, friendly and humanely sympathetic postings at the beginning of this thread, before Keith and his merry Klavern of Klansmen hijacked it - as has happened over and over and over...... again on this forum.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:54 PM

SJ Lepak, I am indeed that Eliza who said exactly that. But 'hijab'?? 'donkey's ears'?? I'm sure the other members of the PCC of St Margaret's church would be amazed if I arrived at our committee meetings in a hijab. And the last time I looked in a mirror, my ears appeared to be quite normal. If you have a valid point to make regarding my posts, it would be better if you were a little less obtuse, as so far, you're not making a great deal of sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:09 PM

Eliza
Tried to PM you, hadn't noticed you were a guest.
Can I apologise if I have alarmed you in any way with my descriptions of racism - it was certainly not my intention.
I lived in London for thirty years and witnessed a great deal of racism - but can I stress that it was all passively verbal and non-threatening - in my opinion, very much a part of the hangover of Empire conditioning.
At no time did I witness racist violence, though I was aware that it took place, usually orchestrated in advance by the sewer-rat politicos.
I never found London a particularly friendly place, nor did I find it a violent one, just a large somewhat amorphous English city.
If I have upset you in any way, my apologies.
Best wishes to you and your husband,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:25 PM

"Eliza" does Joe Offer know you?

Jim, you are worthy of the Marxist crazies that overthrew the Tsar for Stalin!

Btw, Steve Gardham should have warned me about what an asshole you are, but I forgive him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:33 PM

Lepak, Eliza is a much loved, respected and honest Mudcatter.

Take back your insults and/or fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:59 PM

& conversion to another faith is a capital offence. Or any sort of legal offence for that matter.

Roman Catholocisism. Ever heard of excommunication & the Death of the Soul?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:01 PM

as I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Not to worry, Eliza. Apparently nor does she.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:26 PM

"Now point our any country or society in the world..."
So we have to put the blame for the death of a soldier on the people who have chosen to leave their countries of origin and live in Britain - do I have that right?

.,,.
No, of course you don't. A complete irrelevance & I can't see how you could possibly have interpreted what I wrote to mean any such thing.

My point was that, altho the holy book of Xtnty does indeed contain certain injunctions to war against the outsider &c, they were way back then, not now. The injunctions of Xtn holy writ are not followed now to the extent of the execution of apostates anywhere in the whole world [my challenge to you was to name one place where they were ~~ which you can't becoz there are none]; whereas in places where Sharia obtains, apostasy or conversion to another religion is a capital offence, often imposed ~~ in Saudi, N Nigeria &c. Which is where your implied comparison by invocation of some of the more truculent bits of Leviticus is going to fall down.

But, I wonder again why I bother, since it is J Carroll that I am addressing; who always knows best so never listens...


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:35 PM

Roman Catholicism is not a legislative jurisdiction in that sense, Greg F. & death of the soul due to excommunication is not the sort of physical death I wrote about, & well you know it. Don't pretend to be more stupid & awkward than you are; it is entirely otiose.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:55 PM

Roman Catholicism is not a legislative jurisdiction in that sense

Ever hear of The Vatican?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:17 PM

Jim, thank you so much for your kindly concern. You didn't alarm me by your accounts, I just feel that London may be a little unsafe for my husband at the moment. It was so nice of you to try to PM me, and I appreciate your consideration. And thank you too Keith for your comment. It's good to know I am welcome here on Mudcat. Kindest regards to all! Eliza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 10:00 PM

MtheM said "That will be a great comfort to Mrs Rigby" or words to that effect, in response to a suggestion that the muslim community is not seen as a security threat. It's a pity he didn't read the Rigby family's comments before exploiting Mrs Rigby for his own purpose. It's fairly clear that the Rigbys themselves do not see the muslim community as a threat.

Thread drift: It is a sectarian religious war that has already spread to Iraq and beginning in Lebanon.

That's way too glib, Keith. It has become sectarian, as is often the case with insurrections (cf the relatively mini-commotion in Northern Ireland). But it started as a protest against brutal governance, the protesters believing for some reason that western-style democracy might work in Syria. They forgot that before Bashar Al Asad and his dad Hafez, Syria was virtually ungovernable, with a coups almost yearly.

But for all its manifest sins, the Asad dynasty (part of the Allawi sect, which only in recent times got attached to the fringes of Shia Islam) has stuck to a broadly sectarian line. In fact the Asads have governed rather like Saddam in Iraq, but a good bit more brutally. And as with Iraq, it was madness to think that taking on the regime would make things better. Apart from anything else, militant Shia fundamentalists glimpse the possibility of an Islamic state emerging from the vacuum, and Sunni wealth in Qatar and elsewhere has rushed to bankroll the rebels in support of Syria's Sunni majority. In short, it's a Holy mess into which the UK government is itching to pour more weaponry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 11:53 PM

Wow! Go babysit my grandson, come back and were all so smug :-) Et tu Keith? That's fine. You seem confused. You want my kid gloves? Here you take 'em.

Having donkey ears means you don't listen. It has nothing to do with your appearance. It's like this little folk tale from Guyana about the town crier:

"When he knock and shout, some shiver because dem didn't like what dem hear. Dem got some who love to talk and talk but don't listen. Dem like donkey. Dem ears long but don't hear dem own story."

Do you even know what obtuse means? It means lacking in quickness of perception or intellect. I am hardly that - but you might be. If you're not wearing a hijab then you're married to a token Muslim. That's fine. We got token everything out here. I myself am a token Episcopalian in honor of my grandfather.

I remember when I first went into Grampa's church. Having been brought up Catholic, I was horrified by an enormous inverted cross. But I later found out it was there because our church had been named for St. Peter and St. Peter had been crucified upside down at his own request. Oy, what a meshuggener. Like it's not bad enough right side up?   Gra

And I hate to disappoint y'all but there ain't no such thing as a "mudcatter" 'cept in yo head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 11:54 PM

Of course I've heard of the Vatican, you patronising booby, Greg. It has no legislative powers as a "state" beyond the parking arrangements in St Peter's Square. I'd like to see what would happen if its town council or whatever the hell they call it tried to introduce capital punishment for speeding along Via Aurelia!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:16 AM

Oh, I forgot to tell you that Grampa said the upside down cross was okay because Episcopalians are not superstitious. My grandfather was a good Christian because he lived as a Christian. He didn't go in for any hocus-pocus. Or any hypocrisy. We had pipes at his funeral.

And he loved cats. We had a lot of cats. That's why I know there's no such thing as a mudcat. Cats are very clean. They clean themselves actually. And they're very cute doing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:25 AM

Actually, Susan, a mudcat is a kind of fish.

'Catfish native to the Mississippi Delta's "muddy waters," especially the yellow bullhead' - wikipedia

Hence the name of this forum, whence our name for ourselves, Mudcatters.

Best

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:49 AM

You mean the funny looking fish with the whiskers? That's funny because there's two cats in the Mudcat video. I just assumed...

What is This Place? 

But sure I know about mudcats- mainly polywogs- but sure :-))) Ain't no such thing anyway. Get over yourselves. Not you.

First hit in Britain. Made in France.

I Love My Dog


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:55 AM

Peter, I know well how Syria started and have been discussing it here from when it was peaceful protests against the regime.
Do you glibly deny that it is now a religious sectarian war with inhuman atrocities committed daily by both sides?

Jim, I first mentioned a figure of 2000 and said where I had heard it.
When you challenged it I provided ample evidence that the figure was reasonable, and you have produced nothing to support a significantly lower figure.
You have made a fool of yourself over a trivial factoid.
Likewise the 7%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 05:34 AM

"you have produced nothing to support a significantly lower figure."
There are no figures to produce - MI5 do not give such information and nowhere is it shown that the figures have risen - that is your invention.
Lets get this straight - in 2006 the figures for terrorist threats were 2,000 - which includes all the 'suspects' I have given IRA, spies et al (according to MI5 head), left and right wing organisations - and those who are routinely listed as a risk, - mustn't forget Mrs Thatcher's "Enemies Within" the Trades Unions.
What happened to those 'suspects - were they arrested, were they found to be safe, do the security forces still have them under surveillance, are they roaming free despite the fact that they are a security risk?
But most relevant WHERE ARE YOU GETTING YOUR INFORMATION - HAVE YOU BUGGED THE CIA HEADQUARTERS?
You are a moron Keith, and the fact that you continue to invent "facts" to make your Islamophobic case makes you a lying moron bigot.
Syria is a wonderful example of your moronic attitude - you open a hand-wringing thread about what was happening in Homs, when thousands of citizens were being cut down by sniper fire you explain how it was OK to sell Assad "only sniper bullets", you suggest it would be acceptable to sell him riot control equipment, you oppose suggestions that Britain arm the opposition and ignore the Chinese/Russian veto, and you appear surprised that the Syrian people have turned to the only people who are prepared to help - the Extremists.   
You are an inarticulate clown who is unable to maintain a coherent argument and make two statements relate to one another.
If you have any idea whatever what how many suspects there are, produce your sources or go away and take your nodding dog with you - he is becoming as pathetic as you are.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 06:21 AM

Lets get this straight - in 2006 the figures for terrorist threats were 2,000 - which includes all the 'suspects' I have given IRA, spies et al (according to MI5 head),

Actual quote.
Thousands of British Muslims are being watched by police and MI5 under suspicion of possible terrorist involvement, a Scotland Yard chief has disclosed.
Peter Clarke, the head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch, said they were being looked at in the belief that they might be involved directly or indirectly in supporting terrorism.
When asked roughly how many Muslims were being looked at, Mr Clarke said: "I don't want to go down the numbers game, I don't think it's helpful … all I can say is that our knowledge is increasing and certainly in terms of broad description, the numbers of people who we have to be interested in, are into the thousands."

Same link.
"The counter-terrorist effort now under way, with some 70 investigations against suspected Islamic extremists, is unprecedented and unmatched even at the height of the IRA's mainland campaign."

WHERE ARE YOU GETTING YOUR INFORMATION - HAVE YOU BUGGED THE CIA HEADQUARTERS?
You are a moron Keith, and the fact that you continue to invent "facts" to make your Islamophobic case makes you a lying moron bigot.


I have given sources and links for everything.
A pointless and desperate lie Jim, as it is still fresh in everyone's minds.
You just make a bigger and bigger ARSE of yourself.
(but don't stop on my account)


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 07:10 AM

I suggest that anybody left with any genuine interest in this subject
other than to use the body of a dead soldier as an Islamophobic soapbox, read through the reasoned, friendly and humanely sympathetic postings at the beginning of this thread, before Keith and his merry Klavern of Klansmen hijacked it


I suggest the same, to see what a disgusting lie that is, to add to all the other lies Jim tells in his desperation to smear someone he can not challenge in any other way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 07:48 AM

That's the way it plays out with the apologists - their claims are refuted with facts and figures and they resort to smearing and name calling because that's all they have left. This thread has run it's course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 11:16 AM

"Thousands of British Muslims are being watched by police and MI5 under suspicion of possible terrorist involvement, a Scotland Yard chief has disclosed."
SEPTEMBER 12TH "))
What has happened to the thousands who were being watched, SEVEN YEARS AGO - secretly banged up, deported or not guilty of any crime - come on Keith - you have a hot line into the security services, you must know?
THE LONGER YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER THIS THE BIGGER MORON YOU BECOME - YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ANY BACKING TO YOUR CLAIM OF INCREASED NUMBERS, YOU HAVE REFUSED TO RESPOND TO THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO SIGN OF TERRORIST ACTIVITY IN THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY,. YOU CONTINUE TO LIE
"I have given sources and links for everything."
NO YOU HAVE NOT -
"This thread has run it's course."
You wish!!
What a trio of tossers!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 11:17 AM

Should read ,SEPTEMBER 12TH 2006
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 11:46 AM

I fear that the tosser is the one who thinks his hysterical non-arguments somehow become more valid & convincing by being printed in

BLOODY GREAT BIG RED BLOCK CAPITALS


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 11:47 AM

The quote was of Peter Clarke, the head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch.
He was quoted in The Daily Telegraph, and I provided the link.

Scotland Yard would not allow such a lie to be published in the Telegraph.
So, what is your challenge Jim dear?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:02 PM

It sure has you miserable bunch of gnarly trolls! You say the same damned things over and over and over again. You're boring to the max :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:03 PM

If you come up with one Jim, please put it in the biggest and reddest capitals that HTML will allow.
I would hate to miss it, you silly arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Toking Episcopalian
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM

Hey guys, wanna smoke one? Jerry Garcia says it makes you behave :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:49 PM

Just toke yourself off, Pisco...


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:54 PM

"I fear that the tosser is the one who thinks his hysterical non-arguments somehow become more valid & convincing by being printed in"
No Mike - the tosser is the one who lurks in the shadows while his mates stick their necks out, only emerging occasionally to egg them on when they run out of steam.
"He was quoted in The Daily Telegraph, and I provided the link."
Nothing later than 2006 then - now there's a surprise!
Stick and stones and all that.
"You're boring to the max"
And you're the sad lady who thinks Stalin replaced the Tsar - go buy a history book!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 01:26 PM

The numbers could hardly go down since then!
There has been a gang of Islamists convicted of plotting mass murder every year since then, and several some years.
We have been told that the current two were on the watch list, but could not be watched because there were still thousands on it.

I have produced a lot of facts.
You have provided nothing to suggest the figure should be lower.
Are you going to?
You would like to but you can't, because it is bollocks, like everything you post on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 02:03 PM

""Peter Clarke, the head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch, said they were being looked at in the belief that they might be involved directly or indirectly in supporting terrorism.
When asked roughly how many Muslims were being looked at, Mr Clarke said: "I don't want to go down the numbers game, I don't think it's helpful … all I can say is that our knowledge is increasing and certainly in terms of broad description, the numbers of people who we have to be interested in, are into the thousands.
""

It may have escaped your attention Keith, but he operative word here is might, since implicit in that is the phrase "or might not".

Why is it that you specifically have such a problem with this concept?

Could it be your hatred of Muslims which prevents you from seeing all the ramifications of the word might?

It certainly seems to be so!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 02:33 PM

"operative word here is might, since implicit in that is the phrase or might not"
.,,.
No, Don; sorry, but that's feeble and desperate. What is implicit in the use of the word 'might' here [along with all that pathetic "not going into the numbers game" shtick] is that they are the words of a spokesman scared too shitless of the PC-Brigade and the anti-racist industry to come out with the true figures he had, right there on the paper before him. This was 6 years ago, remember [as poor old Jim never tires of telling us because it's all he's got, poor old - ah - match-beginner-with-the-coin]; before the whole of that pusillanimous evasiveness was blown sky-high by decent investigative journalism, esp by The Times.

You know it's true.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 02:58 PM

"Jim, it's a manner of speaking that the Tsar was replaced by Stalin."
Did you say you were a teacher - hope you don't teach history!
"The numbers could hardly go down since then!"
Don't be more stupid than you have been already - the significance of the killing under discussion is its rarity - you have claimed 2,000 suspects now - you can't substantiate it so you have retreated to "maybes". You claim that the number of suspects has increased   - you can't substantiate it and are now trying to skirt around it.
The 2,000 figure comes from the Metropolitan Police - not MI5 and it was conjured up as a "maybe" - as Don has just pointed out, over a year after the London bombings, when the nearest the police had come to arresting accomplices was to execute an innocent bystander in an Underground tube station, so the must have been fairly desperate to come up with some results - "observation" being one of the favourite euphemisms for "getting nowhere".
As has been requested here and elsewhere, stop inventing phony figures.
You have no evidence at all that the figures have increased, there have been no arrests or deportation of the 2'000 suspects so it seems that they were innocent of all crimes, or the figure was snatched out of the air just as yours have.
There is no increased 'suspect terrorist activity' from the Muslim community - they remain as well behaved as they always have been, despite you and your shitty mates trying to paint them as monsters and degenerates, in order to make their lives harder than they already are.
"There has been a gang of Islamists convicted of plotting mass murder every year since then, and several some years."
Can you provide links to this - the only claim I can find is on the fascist "Stormfront" website?
"I have produced a lot of facts." You have not - you have invented them and refused to substantiate your claims - the nearest one to reality was your 2,000 which you have just all but admitted was back in 2006 - "The numbers could hardly go down since then!"
"but could not be watched because there were still thousands on it"
NO WE HAVEN'T - PRODUCE YOUR EVIDENCE OR STOP LYING - we have been told the police lost interest in them - nobody has claimed "thousands" - you're going to end up with a nose longer than Tony Blair's!
You really should work out a use order for the brain - yo really are dipping out in the share.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:13 PM

Here is evidence that the numbers have not gone down.
It is provided for us by MI5.

Our experience over the last ten years has shown that networks of terrorist supporters can be extraordinarily determined, resilient and patient. Some groups that have been disrupted or have had members convicted of terrorist or other offences have nonetheless been able to recover. They have resumed terrorist-related activities within a relatively short period of time and sometimes under new leadership.

Over 310 individuals have been convicted of terrorist offences in the UK between 11 September 2001 and 30 September 2012. A number of those who have been imprisoned and are due for release are still committed to extremism. They are likely to return to terrorist activities and will need to be monitored in coming years.

Experience has shown that it is very rarely the case that anyone who has been closely involved with terrorist-related activity can be safely taken off our list of potentially dangerous individuals.

Terrorists continue to aspire to attack high-profile targets in the UK and abroad. Major public events present new opportunities for terrorists. The UK's police and intelligence services continue to step up efforts to counter the ongoing threat from international terrorism.
https://www.mi5.gov.uk/home/the-threats/terrorism/international-terrorism/international-terrorism-and-the-uk/the-trajectory-of-t


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:30 PM

"There has been a gang of Islamists convicted of plotting mass murder every year since then, and several some years."
Can you provide links to this - the only claim I can find is on the fascist "Stormfront" website?

yes I can, and I never look at such sites.
Nor should you.
They use hits as evidence of support.

Asked if MI5 was in the dock, Sir Malcolm (Rifkind, former defence sec.) told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "No, I don't think they're in the dock. I think that would be very unfair.

"Do remember one fundamental point: the fact we have not had anyone killed until these tragic events in Woolwich since the 7/7 bombings in 2005 is not because there hasn't been terrorist plots.

"Every year since 2005 there has been at least one, sometimes two or even more, terrorist plots which were disrupted and prevented from killing British citizens, partly because of the work of MI5 - in some cases very largely because of the work of MI5 - and other intelligence agencies."


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 04:02 PM

The MI5 link does not work.
Unless anyone can help, just google the first paragraph from my extract.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 04:47 PM

This should work - MI5 link - you cut off the end of the url.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 09:03 PM

This video was referenced by Bobad but nobody commented on it.
Freedom of speech?
WTF?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 01:42 AM

When they do not respond, it means they can't.
Bobad gave an explanation for why Jim trawls racist sites.
He did not respond.
(Jim just admitted he frequents the "fascist Stormfront" site.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 03:42 AM

"Jim just admitted he frequents the "fascist Stormfront" site.
I never look at such sites. Nor should you."
What a stupidly ignorance-imposing statement - if I wand to find what you people are up to these are the sites to go to.
However, whenever I attempt to trace your statements because you refuse to link them, I come up with organsiations like 'Stormfront' 'The English Defence League' 'UKIP' and the 'British National Party' - which should tell everybody who they are dealing with here – thank you for the opportunity of pointing that fact out.
Bobad's list of links came from The White Supremist - I pointed that out at the time.
"This video was referenced by Bobad but nobody commented on it."
Why should we Susan - it was an early report which appeared in all the press here and was common knowledge - a brave lady facing a murderous thug - what has it got to do with 'savage hordes of foreigners' on our doorstep?
Have read through much of the MI5 site comments on terrorism - am reading through your link with interest - I suggest you do the same.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 03:58 AM

I attempt to trace your statements because you refuse to link them,
Same old lie Jim.
Would you care to give an example?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 04:17 AM

Bobad's list of links came from The White Supremist - I pointed that out at the time.

You did, but it was a lie.
As Bobad said, "So Carroll you were lying about the data coming from a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site". You were just trying to associate me with white supremists (sic) to try and smear me you lying piece of shit. I have never once in my life accessed a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site" but you seem to have some familiarity with them. Is that where you and your fellow travelers congregate to discuss the "Jewish problem"?"

What is their take on Global Zionism Jim?
Is it like coming home?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 04:21 AM

The third survey he listed was the one quoted by BBC that I also put up, saying I hoped BBC was not too white supremacist for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 04:57 AM

"a brave lady facing a murderous thug - what has it got to do with 'savage hordes of foreigners' on our doorstep?"
.,,.
"'a' murderous thug"?! "a"??? A bloody great parade of murderous thugs, of whom that fat slug was just the spokie. Weren't you watching Jim? Of course not. You were doing your usual ostrich act, so you could ignore the bleeding-obvious, the patent lesson that Islam should never have been allowed a foothold here to preach its poisonous [and filthy-mannered] doctrine that, now they are here & have taken over some of our cities [Luton; Bradford...], we have got to change all our ways to accommodate their filthy fatuous ideas or they are going to kill a few more of our soldiers & blow up a few more of our buses. And then lift your head out just long enough to shout "Racist", coz it's all you've got, before burying it again.

Modern equivalent of the one on KoKKo's 'little list' in The Mikado, 'the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone,
All centuries but this, and every country but his own' ~~
good old Gilbert had their number all right, Carroll & his like. Make me sick. Traitors. Is High Treason still a capital offence, I wonder?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 04:59 AM

sorry the html went apeshit: but hope my point comes over nonetheless


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