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BS: Unarmed soldier killed, (London-May 2013)

GUEST,Alan 22 May 13 - 01:53 PM
kendall 22 May 13 - 02:35 PM
Dave Hanson 22 May 13 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,CS 22 May 13 - 03:04 PM
jacqui.c 22 May 13 - 03:47 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 May 13 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Alan 22 May 13 - 04:46 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,Alan 22 May 13 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Eliza 22 May 13 - 05:22 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 05:42 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 05:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 May 13 - 05:54 PM
akenaton 22 May 13 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,Eliza 22 May 13 - 05:59 PM
akenaton 22 May 13 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Alan 22 May 13 - 06:27 PM
Greg F. 22 May 13 - 06:45 PM
Ebbie 22 May 13 - 07:00 PM
bobad 22 May 13 - 07:05 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 07:17 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 07:35 PM
Ron Davies 22 May 13 - 08:22 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 May 13 - 09:00 PM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 23 May 13 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 23 May 13 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 06:24 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 06:33 AM
Barb'ry 23 May 13 - 07:00 AM
Barb'ry 23 May 13 - 07:06 AM
Greg F. 23 May 13 - 08:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 08:38 AM
akenaton 23 May 13 - 08:44 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 13 - 09:19 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 09:26 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 09:33 AM
akenaton 23 May 13 - 09:43 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 May 13 - 09:44 AM
Greg F. 23 May 13 - 09:46 AM
Greg F. 23 May 13 - 09:58 AM
akenaton 23 May 13 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 23 May 13 - 10:43 AM
Richard Bridge 23 May 13 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,CS 23 May 13 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,Alan 23 May 13 - 11:02 AM

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Subject: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:53 PM

A very sad reflection on what Britain has become in 2013. I do hope the youth of Britain will respond positively.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-respond-to--serious-incident--after-reports-of-assault-in-woolwich--south-london-150210708.html?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: kendall
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:35 PM

Appalled is hardly sufficient.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:51 PM

The firearms officers should be getting a bollocking for not killing them.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:04 PM

If they weren't shot dead, then that was a good thing, these men wanted to be martyred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:47 PM

Sickening.

Watch out for the backlash - most of the Muslims in the UK are decent law abiding people who will be as appalled at this event as anyone. Let's hope that anger doesn't make them victims too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:06 PM

Ridiculous thread title. Maybe a mod can come up with something more helpful. And it didn't take long for the predictable imbecile response to show up. Well done Dave Hanson(yawn).

Blood-soaked murderer tries to explain...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:08 PM

agreed- most muslims dont go in for that jihad stuff.
terrible - maybe about 10 mile from my home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:46 PM

Peter, it isn't your thread, so please don't make suggestions as to changing the title, now run away and play please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:58 PM

I'm surprised that you would stand by your clever-alec stupidity, Alan. Anyone thinking to discuss the Woolwich atrocity is unlike to search for "Britain 2013" before starting a new thread. And anyone looking for this thread in a year's time will do well to remember your laboured cynicism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:01 PM

As I said Peter, go and play yourself. The thread title stands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:22 PM

Tragic and horrifying. My husband is a black Muslim, and I'm worried that all law-abiding Muslims might be ostracised for this barbaric act.It is indeed almost incredible that such a thing could take place in Britain in 2013, so I see nothing wrong with the thread title. This time last year, our country was so proud about the Jubilee and our preparations for the Olympics. Visitors of all races and creeds were welcomed and mixed together happily. This event has cast a dreadful cloud over London. So sorry for the young man's family. What a totally needless death.


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Subject: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:42 PM

An off-duty soldier was hacked to death in Woolwich, SE London, today - in broad daylight - by two guys shouting Allah Akhbar. After beheading him, they told bystanders to call the police, then hung around chatting. Police duly arrived, shot and injured them and put them under arrest.

Man with blood on his hands holds knife at attack scene


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:51 PM

Just realised that that video link might not be available stateside.

Here it is on Youtube.

And here's a BBC report of the ghastly incident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:54 PM

I'm worried that all law-abiding Muslims might be ostracised for this barbaric act.

Probably with good reason, Eliza. Trouble is that until Moslem leaders renounce extremism like this and begin to actively excommunicate the perpetrators of violence most people will believe that this type of behavior is condoned by that religion. I am not saying that is a true picture of Moslems but it is what a lot of people will believe. And world leaders will pander to a vocal majority whether they are right or wrong.

Those "law-abiding Muslims" need to ensure that the extremists are caught and brought to justice by working closely with anti-terrorist police and lobbying their leaders to let it be known that there will be no 'heaven' for the jihadists. Is it Moslem or Muslim BTW? - My first introduction to the religion is when my Dad talked about his ancestors, the Cossacks, fighting 'Mohammedans'! Is that no longer PC?

I hope all is OK for you and your husband.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:55 PM

We are living in a madhouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:59 PM

Thank you Dave. Fortunately most people in our little village (pop 800) know my husband and he's well-liked as he does a lot for the community. He calls himself a Musulman, the term used in W Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:18 PM

Its getting more like the end of the Roman Empire every day...madness rules socially and politically.

The TV screen is the circus and the prancing celebrities the mad perverted rulers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:27 PM

Police just confirmed, a number of people are posting footage on several social websites tonight showing the young soldiers head being hacked off. I hope the fears I have tonight don't become reality.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4938197/shooting-in-woolwich-london.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 13 - 06:45 PM

Sounds like pretty much nobody knows much of what actually went on or why.

Tune in again later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:00 PM

Note that the ill-named Britain 2013 thread is already discussing this incident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:05 PM

"Sounds like pretty much nobody knows much of what actually went on or why."

Au contraire dear Greg there were multiple witnesses and one of the killers himself spoke on video:

A witness identified as James told local radio station LBC that he saw two suspects attack the young victim with knives, including a meat cleaver.

"They were hacking at this poor guy, literally," he told the station. "They were hacking at him, chopping him, cutting him."

Multiple witnesses said the victim was wearing a T-shirt bearing the logo of the veterans charity Help for Heroes.

The attack took place less than a mile from a military barracks, in Woolwich, southeast London.

Britain's Home Secretary Theresa May told ITV News she had been briefed by the Director General of the Security Service MI5 on what she called a "sickening and barbaric" attack.

One eyewitness posted on Twitter that he had seen the victim "with his head chopped off" but this was not confirmed by any police or government officials.

Local resident Graham Wilders told the BBC he saw a man pulling out a handgun. He said:

    "As I drove around the corner I see the car on the pavement. I thought there's been an accident … there was two people leaning over and I thought they were trying to resuscitate him, there was a bloke against the wall.

    "Next minute ... another bloke has come along and told me they were actually stabbing him, apparently they actually run the car into him and knocked him down before they done anything.

    "And then next minute there was a bloke come along in a silver little car and he got out and he shouted out to everyone 'someone phone the police.' So we phone the police. So next minute what happened he actually pulled a handgun out."

    "Next minute I see the silver car shoot off."



The man holding the cleaver was videotaped by a bystander saying: "By Allah we swear by the almighty Allah and we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone."

"Leave our lands and we can all live in peace, that's all I have to say."


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:17 PM

Here's a fuller report, Greg, with copious eye-witness detail:

Daily Telegraph

The calm demeanour of the guy with blood-covered hands who had the nerve to apologise that women had had to witness the atrocity was extraordinary and chilling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 07:35 PM

My Arab partner has just emailed me from Amman: "Are these guys human beings?????"

Meanwhile the Muslim Council of Britain has condemned the atrocity in the most unequivocal terms: Muslims condemn attack


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 13 - 08:22 PM

"Muslim Council of Britain has condemned the atrocity in the most unequivocal terms".

NB, all brilliant Mudcat analysts, including the esteemed OP, who are convinced that all evil is due to religion.

I wonder how long it will take til said Mudcatters forget this lesson---yet again. Not long, I'll wager.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 09:00 PM

"Evil" itself is of course a concept born out of religion, Ron, implying the involvement of some supernatural, Satanic force.

If this latest horror was committed, as you seem to assume, by people whose thinking was firmly grounded in the here and now, then it would indeed be one small step (there have been others) towards rebutting my suspicion that many of the worst things that happen are done by people inspired by superstitious/religious beliefs, or result from the exploition of such beliefs.

I strongly suspect, however, that the perps in this case had some crazy notion that they were fulfilling their god's purpose. Their post-crime behaviour had all the hallmarks of a pitch at martyrdom, in the belief that they were soon be rewarded by their maker.

So yep, broadly speaking, I'd say irrational behaviour and religious beliefs sit comfortably together, and likely did so in the present case. But that's not to say you can't have one without the other, nor that all people of religion do crazy things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:39 AM

Britain is on a tilt switch as it is without this.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/woolwich-edl-demo-mosques-attacked-021243145.html?vp=1#tWrZnhl


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:42 AM

'Leave our lands'? I've seen the pictures of these two animals and neither of them look like Afghans or Iraqis to me. Just scum. Worthless wastes of flesh who've probably turned to some bullshit 'religion' to fill up their meaningless, pointless lives. And no, it's nothing to do with Islam any more than the IRA had anything to do with Catholicism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:24 AM

Close eye-witness account


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:49 AM

That lady is Britain 2013 too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:24 AM

A decade ago the very thought of such an incident on a British street would have been unthinkable. Sadly I do not think it will be the last.

British Muslim terrorists have moved their game up a notch,they seem to be working under the single cell system, clean skins without record, minimum use of computer/cell phone devices, difficult to gather intelligence on such people, no sophistication or time span in any degree goes into planning, no quartermaster required, no camp attendance or association with T.O's (training officers).

I don't want to be alarmist, but if such attack operations were to occur again in the UK we could see some group or collective individuals deliver a measured response.

The government are playing the seriousness of this incident down this morning, much as they did after recent council elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:26 AM

Eye-witness statements have been tweeted and quoted in a headline in the Sun newspaper to the effect that the victim was beheaded. But this is put in serious doubt by Ingrid Loyau-Kennett's very coherent and detailed account in the Guardian (Peter Laban's link above). I should have known not to trust the Sun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:33 AM

The account in today's Daily Mirror says it all, many British papers such as the Guardian fearful of printing the facts it would appear.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-horrified-witnesses-tell-1904602


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Barb'ry
Date: 23 May 13 - 07:00 AM

The Islamic Society of Britain has been quick to put out this statement (link below). What happened in Woolwich was terrible, disgusting, a heinous crime but we must be very careful not to let our condemnation of what happened spread into a condemnation of all Muslims. It would be scarily easy to allow that to happen.

Woolwich Terror Statement


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013
From: Barb'ry
Date: 23 May 13 - 07:06 AM

Guest Alan - although you did start the thread as you are a Guest I am unable to contact you via a pm to discuss the title. As this appalling event has affected many people, I am going to add 'Woolwich' to the thread title so that we don't get lots of other threads starting on the same subject. If you would like to join Mudcat, you will be able to use all the functions, including messaging people.

Also, it would be sad for people to get the idea that this event defines 'Britain' or 'Britishness' - I hope you agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:31 AM

"He said he had killed the man because he (the victim) was a British soldier who killed Muslim women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan. He was furious about the British Army being over there."

Well, the man has a valid point. His method of acting on that point may be unfortunate, but "blowback" is a reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:38 AM

Just unfortunate Greg?
And valid anyway?
I think you are out on your own on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013 (Woolwich)
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:44 AM

"Also, it would be sad for people to get the idea that this event defines 'Britain' or 'Britishness' - I hope you agree."..Barb'ry 23rd May.

From Akenaton....19th may.
"liberals" should ponder on this truth, before sounding off about "equality" for sexual minorities, or support for those who would like to see our heads severed from our bodies."

Welcome to the new "liberal" Britain Barb'ry!


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:11 AM

Keith, rather than try to outdo each other in the vocabulary of atrocity, it might be more productive to give measured thought to yesterday's horror/atrocity/barbarity. Choice of words aside, Greg's point is entirely valid and, as far as I can see, he's the first to have raised it.

No doubt you'll agree that these violent acts, by people willing to sacrifice their own lives, would not be happening if the US had reacted rationally to 9-11 and the Bush-Blair criminal invasion of Saddam had not happened. The challenge now is to find some way of getting back to where we were.

And before you say it, yes, we would obviously be in a better place still if 9-11 had not happened in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded on London St
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:19 AM

I have not indulged in any vocabulary of atrocity.
I do not accept that such deeds are in anyway justified.
You and Greg are entitled to your opinions, but I will not be joining a debate on the pros and cons of this act, or how much we are to blame for what was done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013 (Woolwich)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:26 AM

So sanity prevailed, for which thanks Barb'ry.

If you can be bothered, you might consider importing some of the posts in the unarmed soldier beheaded thread then closing/deleting that thread. Although Alan seems to favour other accounts over that given to the Guardian and ITV Daybreak by Ingrid Layou-Kennett, I think my putting "beheaded" in the other thread's title could turn out to embarrass me. As chatter solidifies into hard fact I think we'll find that there was no beheading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain 2013 (Woolwich)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:33 AM

Keith, you quibbled at the word "unfortunate" which was cerainly not wrong, but plainly not expressive enough for your taste. Now if I may quibble with you, I have not suggested - and I doubt if any Mudcatter would suggest - that yesterday's murder was "justified". It was, however, somewhere along a scale towards "inevitable."
Threads combined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:43 AM

Yes Peter, this crime and the London Underground massacre were obviously prompted to a large extent by UK foreign policy.

BUT....these crimes were committed by psychiatrically unbalanced religious zealots, who I am quite sure have the tacit approval of a pretty large section of British Moslems.

OK maybe we reap what we have sown, but Powell's "rivers of blood" are always on the point of welling up at source.

The recent trials of mainly British Pakistani muslims for the grooming and rape of children points to extreme cultural differences and the fact that Human rights activists constantly try to deny this adds to the toxicity.

The leaders of Islam here in the UK,no more speak for the ordinary
people, than do our politicians for us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:44 AM

Wow, quick! Or maybe you were ahead of me. Thanks Barb'ry/mod.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier beheaded, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:46 AM

Inevitable AND wholly predictable, Peter.

How long are certain people going to
support killing innocent civilians by the thousands - or tens of thousands - 'keep poking that hornet's nest with a stick' if you will, and then act suprised and outraged when they get stung?

Clearly a case of "the chickens coming home to roost" - and more to come unless sanity prevails, and apologists like several individuals on this thread see the error of their ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:58 AM

I am quite sure have the tacit approval of a pretty large section of British Moslems.

Are ye now? Is that because of your crystal ball, your consistent disregard of facts & evidence, your demonstrated bigotry, or just your plain old bullshitting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 13 - 10:06 AM

I dont know if you have any experience of British Asian communities Greg?.....I do not use a crystal ball, ignore facts, or practice bigotry.....YOU are the expert "bullshitter"


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 May 13 - 10:43 AM

Serious question Akenaton. You say you are sure that they have the tacit approval of a large section of British Muslims.

Granted, you have form when it comes to statements concerning large sections of society that you woke up one morning and decided to hate but I await your rationale with bemused interest.

The hospital where my office sits has over a thousand Muslims working every day saving people's lives alongside their 7000 colleagues. I wonder if I would see the same results if I did a straw poll.

Not that I would. Assumptions to support preconceived bigotry are best left to the experts eh Ake?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 13 - 10:54 AM

Er - did these chaps look "Asian"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:01 AM

This was a piece of bloody PR intended to encourage the British public to think twice about allowing their governments to blow up muslims overseas. And while the act was indeed barbaric, the message was delivered extremely successfully; even with This Morning's Lorraine Kelly's attempts to stop Ingrid Loyau-Kennet from repeating too much of the stuff about women and children being blown up in Afghanistan. There's going to be no chance of a media blackout with so many witnesses and mobile recording devices around. As drone attacks continue overseas, I wouldn't be surprised if we may see more of this kind of thing here in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:02 AM

Clearly the government and the Muslim Council of the UK sense more of a backlash than they care to admit.I spoke to my brother in law who is with a major media corporation in London earlier today, he said they received a directive early this morning, no interviews with anyone associated with a list provided, no interviews or photographs to be used in reports of the three buildings damaged last night in Manchester and the South East of England.

Maybe it is a tactical move by the government, but what about the freedom of the press and the democratic right to express ones views ?


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