BS: Unarmed soldier killed, (London-May 2013)

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:52 PM

again, no mention of IRA.
"Killers Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale were both known to MI5 but were classed as fringe figures who did not merit full scale monitoring.

Express.co.uk quoted Barrett, as saying that it is incredibly hard to find the signals, as to when a person who expresses radical views, flips over to become a violent extremist.

Lord Blair, former Metropolitan Police Commissioner, said there were "thousands and thousands of people who listen to Islamic extremists". MI5 and MI6 must go after the most dangerous suspects who travel abroad for terrorist training, he added.

Lord Blair said the Security Service (MI5) has limited resources, and must prioritise people who are most likely to move from being interested in violent extremism to carrying it out. He said even if they have the resources to do it, they have to have a very high level of suspicion to put surveillance on them.

There are believed to be at least 3,000 people on MI5's database of extremist suspects."

http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/ex-mi6-chief-says-it-s-incredibly-hard-to-stop-terror-attacks-113052600467_1.h

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:43 PM

No mention of IRA Jim, just the Islamist threat.
You made that up.

The new head of British security service MI5 Jonathan Evans said on Monday that there are at least 2,000 people in Britain who pose a threat to national security because of their support for terrorism.

    In his first public speech, made in Manchester, since taking the job in April, Evans said there had been a rise of 400 since November 2006 and some are as young as 15.

    Calling Islamic extremism the "most immediate and acute peacetime threat" in the 98-year history of MI5, he said "The more that this ideology spreads in our communities, the harder it will be to maintain the kind of society that the vast majority of us wish to live in."

    "As I speak terrorists are targeting young people and children in this country," he said, "They are radicalizing, indoctrinating and grooming young, vulnerable people to carry out acts of terrorism."

    "This year, we have seen individuals as young as 15 and 16 implicated in terrorist-related activity," he said.

    "Al-Qaida has a clear determination to mount terrorist attacks against the United Kingdom," he said. "This remains the case today, and there is no sign of it reducing."

    In Iraq, Algeria and parts of East Africa, especially Somalia, he said, the "al-Qaida brand" had expanded and now posed a threat to Britain.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/06/content_7017305.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:41 PM

Sorry Jim, but you seem to have lost it altogether.

"I blame the Catholic church"
But you aren't blaming the Muslim church; you are blaming the Muslim religion.
"I don't believe anyone thinks there's no-one out there blaming the entire Muslim population"
Ho hum - to claim it the fault of the religion you are casting aspersions on everybody who follows that religion - double simples.

Part 1. The Catholic Church is, to me, the same as the Catholoc religion. I do not use the phrase 'Moslem Church' because, rightly or wrongly, it does not sound right.

Part 2. Once again you have the wrong end of the stick. Once again I am saying that no-one believes that anyone thinks that no-one is blaming the entire Moslem population. OK - awkward English, my fault, but just read it carefully and you will see we are agreeing. Y
I think you are just arguing because you cannot stop!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:53 AM

FRED: Here is your post on the Thatcher Obit thread 16 apr 13

"Michael Grosvenor Myer has accused me of issuing some kind of "apparent invitation to shoot Jewish refugees ['useful for target practice']". ...
That is an outrageous lie. Unlike Mr Grosvenor Myer, I spend a considerable part of my life fighting racism and fascism and all forms of bigotry …
I am not going to waste my time demanding an apology from this creep. I shall just warn him that if we ever come face to face, he will be extremely sorry."

My reply ~~ "Fred ~~ I withdrew that statement, admitting to having confused two discourses 15 apr 1011pm. Mixed you up with Jim, can't remember why. Sorry!!!
I should nevertheless appreciate not being threatened at my age with physical violence, if you wouldn't mind too much. Don't think I should be a match for a young fellow like you at the age of 81."

You made no reply to that to deny the threat of physical violence, clearly implied by that "if we ever come face to face, he will be extremely sorry." You certainly never even hinted that you had meant verbals only; which would not have made much sense anyhow for reasons given in my last post.

If that was not a threat of physical violence, then it will do very well till a threat of physical violence comes along.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:50 AM

BTW
Shouldn't you be attending to your other Islam hate threads - they've disappeared
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:49 AM

"Same tired old lie."
Yup - certainly is, but I've come to expect nothing else from you - good job it's archived.
"The figure of 2000 has come from the security services."
Won't bother asking for a link, but that would be the same security services that tried to get information from one of the killers, offered him a job, then lost interest in him wouldn't it?
"The fact these terrorists are motivated by one powerful belief..."
Wonder why all this isn't obvious in a population of 2.5 million - strange that!
"I blame the Catholic church"
But you aren't blaming the Muslim church; you are blaming the Muslim religion.
"I don't believe anyone thinks there's no-one out there blaming the entire Muslim population"
Ho hum - to claim it the fault of the religion you are casting aspersions on everybody who follows that religion - double simples.
"2000"
The figure refers to all terrorist threats in Britain, the upsurge in IRA activity being easlily the front runner - Islam gets one single mention in the MI5 speech - as you rightly say - "another lie".
And so ad infinitum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 13 - 10:15 AM

Commentator Emma-Kate Symons of The Australian Financial Review contrasts French and British response to Islamist terrorism. She includes this quote from my friend Tarek Fatah: "The fact these terrorists are motivated by one powerful belief – the doctrine of armed jihad against the "kuffar" (non-Muslims) – is disingenuously denied by Islamic clerics and leaders. As a Muslim, I can say without fear, the latest terror attack has a basis in Islam and it's time for us Muslims to dig our heads out of the sand".

Read it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:50 AM

Other catters on the thread, as well as me, read it as a physical threat, Fred. It occurred after I had apologised for the confusion. You made no disclaimer as to its being the physical threat that I and others had interpreted as was made manifest by our responses. If you were merely talking verbals, then you would be well aware that I could give back as hard a time as I got; but when I pointed out that, at 81, I would hardly be a match for you (which would not have been the case in the event of mere verbals), you left it at that and in no way modified or qualified the threat you had made. Just go back to that thread & look again if you would have the goodness. You will see that you are being, belatedly, merely disingenuously evasive.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:50 AM

To describe a whole cultural gender as potential pervs

Same tired old lie.
You have been pushing it for years Jim, but anyone who cares knows the truth.
.
"About 170 000 in Britain."
Another figure out of the air - just like your mythical 2,000 potential Muslim threats to security

170 000 is about 7% of 2.5 million. The survey quoted by BBC said 7% of British Muslims "admired" Al Qaeda.

The figure of 2000 has come from the security services. I provided quotes from head of MI5.
"out of thin air" was not true Jim.
Another lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:23 AM

Oh, but I do dispute the claim blame the religion and you blame everybody who follows that religion. BTW.

I blame the Catholic church for the abuse scandal because it is some of the leaders of that church that covered it up for so long. I don't blame the entire Catholic population.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:15 AM

You have it the wrong way round, Jim

Fred : If you think there's no-one out there (or maybe even on this thread) who isn't blaming the entire Muslim population for the death of Lee Rigby, think again.

My response : I don't believe anyone thinks that, Fred.

IE - I don't believe anyone thinks there's no-one out there blaming the entire Muslim population etc. Simples!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:51 AM

I wonder how people would feel if clerical abuse was described as "Catholic"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:49 AM

"I don't believe anyone thinks that"
Yes they do - blame the religion and you blame everybody who follows that religion.
Re earlier comment about British racism - I suggest you Google "is Britain racist" and come back and tell me it is only my opinion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:38 AM

If you think there's no-one out there (or maybe even on this thread) who isn't blaming the entire Muslim population for the death of Lee Rigby, think again.

I don't believe anyone thinks that, Fred. We know that there are people out there who would be happy to wipe out all Moslems. Just as there are Moslems who would like to wipe out all Christians. It just needs to be stated, yet again, that there is no evidence of it on this thread. I challenge anyone to find anyone saying they blame the entire Muslim population for this attrocity.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:56 AM

Should Woolwich really influence policies on another continent?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:45 AM

M. I did not threaten you with "severe physical violence". I said that if we ever met I'd give you a hard time you wouldn't forget in a hurry. I was talking about an attack of the verbals, not a physical attack. In view of what you accused me of, I consider that was a prefectly justifiable reponse.

The fact that you blamed me for something Jim Carroll said, and then completely distorted what he actually said, so that it made me sound like some sort of anti-Jewish fascist, was a bit low even by your standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:42 AM

"I just gave you census figures, and this is the best answer you have?"
No - you've had the response to your list of opinion polls - no evidence whatever that they are in any way in indication of Muslim behaviour in Britain - doesn't get any plainer than that.
"Islamophobe" is a lie, but I will dismiss it again."
'Course you will Keith - and you will continue to show it to be the case on every relevant and irrelevant thread on this forum.
To describe a whole cultural gender as potential pervs is as 'phobic' as it gets and it sums up perfectly the knuckles-along -the-ground attitude of every goose-stepper who seeks to make the lives of 'different' others miserable.
"About 170 000 in Britain."
Another figure out of the air - just like your mythical 2,000 potential Muslim threats to security - and please don't say you didn't claim them to be Muslim - you produced that on a thread discussing.
These figures are totally meaningless unless they are acted on, and considering the level of racism swilling around, I'm surprised they aren't higher.
What a pathetically benighted little band of holy warriors - you really`should decide each day whose turn it is to use the brain!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:18 AM

Fred: You threatened ME, in most truculent and menacing tones, when I got mixed up on another thread and attribd something Jim had said to you. If you have forgotten, I haven't. You will find it if you go thru your posted threads on your personal page. It wasn't that long ago.

My logic is that the minority of Muslims who are Islamists are urged into their violent acts by their imams; whereas those white murderers you so carefully catalogued had NOT been so influenced by their rectors & vicars, had they? So the Islamists are a concrete group similarly motivated by the same influences, whereas the white lot you adumbrated were a completely discrete grouping with no common factor but the commission of a particular offence. So your analogy as to the motivations of the two groups was thoroughly forced & factitious, wasn't it?

Got it now?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:07 AM

Islamism is not a single organisation, but it is a vast global movement as I said Don.
I have never made an anti-Islamic post.
That is a lying smear that you and Jim fall back on because you have nothing else.

"They are acting on deeply held religious belief.
They believe they are doing the will of Allah, and expect to be rewarded by Allah"

That is not Islamophobic, but a factual observation which they themselves would and do endorse.
I have stated enough times that they are in a small minority of Muslims, but you choose to ignore that.
Why Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:05 AM

Re several of the above posts. If you think there's no-one out there (or maybe even on this thread) who isn't blaming the entire Muslim population for the death of Lee Rigby, think again.

Perhaps you haven't noticed the newspaper reports but the entire British far right has been mobilising its forces in hatred of the Muslim population for over a week now. Tomorrow, one of the biggest such organisations is organising a march/motorcade (festooned with swastikas, I shouldn't wonder) from Woolwich to Lewisham Islamic Centre. Why Lewisham Islamic Centre? Because their presence on the steps of that building, plus their inflammatory hate filled speeches, will be specifically designed to provoke a backlash among the Muslim community. The mobilisation time is 13-00, if anyone wants to go along and make effective use of the English right of free speech. But God help you if they get hold of you when the police aren't around.

I don't what any of the other sick sad sods of the far right are doing, but I do know that the English Defence League is mobilising no less than 60 demonstrations across the country. This is in addition to the dozens they've already held, and at each demonstration the message will be the same. "Packies out!" And God help anyone they run into who is not of the same skin colour as them, or the same sexual orientation, or the same religion or political persuasion. God help us all in fact, because there is no doubt that the far right see this as their Kristallnacht and they will use it to whip up as much hatred and bloodshed as they possibly can.

Keith A. Now what is your opinion of the Woolwich incident Fred?

Absolutely sickening and appalling. I hope the perpetrators are banged up where they belong for the maximum sentence the court can hand down. My concern lies not with the barbarians who did the killing, but with all the innocent people who didn't.

Sorry M, I just can't follow your logic. Who said anything about recalcitrant rectors and vicars? And while you're at it, when have I ever threatened anyone on this site with "severe physical violence".

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:57 AM

A brave British woman shows why Nobel Laureate Wole Soyinka is right when he calls England a 'cesspit' breeding Islamists

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:55 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 May 13 - 12:55 PM

Why not Keith - you get away with it
An individual like me might believably be deranged, but you can not dismiss a vast global movement as all afflicted.
You would have to be, er, a nutter Jim.

They are acting on deeply held religious belief.
They believe they are doing the will of Allah, and expect to be rewarded by Allah.""

Here is the basis of the lying smear.

No member would? Well, you did!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:50 AM

""Guess who!

As we have just been saying, none of us can guess Don.
Certainly it is no member of Mudcat.
You are lying and smearing.""

On a scale of one to ten.

Reading 5
Comprehension 2

The quote was from one of YOUR posts, and if you had read the whole of mine you would have known that!

Sheesh
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:45 AM

""Have you never heard of Al Qaeda, Taleban, Al shabab, Boko Haram, the recent war in Chad,.....
I did suggest you try looking it up Don, but you chose to demonstrate your profound ignorance to the world again.
I was being nice to you, silly.""

You are full of these stupid little non sequiturs, aren't you smartarse?

I suggest you do more, and better research. It might save you from making a bigger fool of yourself than you have already.

You may then be able to distinguish between tribal groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and terrorist organisations in the wider scene.

You will also find that Al Qaeda is not an organisation, but a number of disparate groups in different countries, acting independently, but following broadly, the utterances of Osama Bin Laden.

Theree is no actual worldwide Islamist organisation. There are no Islamist organistaions in Western countries which qualify as national.

If any such existed in reality, rather than in the paranoid dreams of xenophobes, then the streets would indeed be running red with blood.

Whatever spurious claims and unverifiable opinion polls you put up, the fact remains that MI5 are monitoring just 2000 individuals, who might at some future time constitute a threat, or might not!

Some global conspiracy.............NOT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:30 AM

Don.

Oh look, somebody is disputing those obvious, self-evident truths.

Guess who!

As we have just been saying, none of us can guess Don.
Certainly it is no member of Mudcat.
You are lying and smearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:27 AM


A suggestion that was made higher up this thread and dismissed out of hand by our resident Islamophobe.
"Islamophobe" is a lie, but I will dismiss it again.
These two disagreed with aspects of government policy just like all the rest of us do.
Unlike the rest of us, they chose to express it by running a car into an off duty soldier and then trying to behead him with meat cleavers.

That does not come from politics but from religious fervour.
It is what Islamist groups like Al Qaeda do.

Most Muslims are decent people and hate such behaviour, but around 7% "admire" it.
A small minority but a significant number of people.
About 170 000 in Britain.

The joke is that although Muslims are indeed being slaughtered in hundreds every day "in their lands," it is not us or any Westerners doing it.
It is other Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:26 AM

""Sorry.
Fred.
The vast majority of Islamic people are not bombers or murderers or terrorists. They are decent hard working respectable people and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the fanatics and nutters as a "security threat". Neither do they deserve the persecution which the vermin of the British far right are currently attempting to inflict on them.

All of that is true.
Not one person here has disputed any of those obvious, self-evident truths.
So, why did you feel the need to post it Fred?""

Maybe because of the following comment from you encompassing the whole worldwide Muslim community?

""An individual like me might believably be deranged, but you can not dismiss a vast global movement as all afflicted.
You would have to be, er, a nutter Jim.

They are acting on deeply held religious belief.
They believe they are doing the will of Allah, and expect to be rewarded by Allah.""

Oh look, somebody is disputing those obvious, self-evident truths.

Guess who!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:56 AM

""The apologists demand figures then reject them when provided - anyone surprised?""

I just gave you census figures, and this is the best answer you have?

It would seem that your comment is correct,......for Israeli apologists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:29 AM

Muslims 'the most law abiding, industrious and unobtrusive cultural group in Britain' - J Carroll [who else?!]
.,,.,.
Don't you love that 'unobtrusive'?

If that's what they are, then where have all these threads full of such nonsense from the egregious JC come from? Why has anyone OPd them, posted to them?

'Unobtrusive', eh. As 'unobtrusive' as the Shard...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:07 AM

A suggestion that was made higher up this thread and dismissed out of hand by our resident Islamophobe.
It was also discussed last night on Question time - and recieved with surprising unanimity.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/29/britain-wars-terror-islamophobia
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:04 AM

If you put a minute handful of incidents down to the religion of an entire immigrant population of Britain IT IS ANTIPATHY TOWARDS MUSLIMS IN GENERAL

How can you say that, Jim? You have said over and over in many threads that the English are, in general, racist. You have stated quite categorically that, due to incidents you have witnessed, you know that the English are racist. Yet when someone says that these bombers and murderers, that claim they are acting for Islam, are Moslems, you assume that we are against all Moslems. Sorry, but you are becoming that entrenched in your apparent hatred of some of the posters on here that your arguments are becoming nonsensical and hypocritical.

When one's reason goes out of the window there is no point trying to reason with them.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:50 AM

" He, like a few others on this thread, is attempting to conflate the opposition to Islamism with antipathy towards Muslims in general"
If you put a minute handful of incidents down to the religion of an entire immigrant population of Britain IT IS ANTIPATHY TOWARDS MUSLIMS IN GENERAL - HOW CAN IT NOT BE? THESE PEOPLE ARE MUSLIMS
By blaming their religion for this incident, you point the finger at the British Muslim population, just as Keith's disgusting 'cultural implant' claim points the finger at every single male Pakistani - an enemy within, as the lady put it.
You have turned a thread on the horrific murder of a soldier into an Islamophobic diatribe - as if there haven't been enough such similar diatribes on this forum lately (all dominated by the usual suspect(s).
Bobad's list goes back to 2004, yet the position has not changed regarding British Muslims behaviour since then - they remain the most law abiding, industrious and unobtrusive cultural group in Britain, they also remain the most persecuted - and shit like this fuels that persecution.
Whatever Bobad's opinion polls say, the Muslim communities in Britain are not a threat and not considered a threat (despite claims to the contrary) except by the lynch-mob mentality that would make them one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:45 AM

I like that, Bobad. I'm going to the doctor to see if he will confirm HTT complex :-)

Seriously though, you have something there. I suspect I will now be classed as a rampant right wing, Islamaphobic, child molesting fiend. Ah well, here goes anyway.

I have agreed over and again that the majority of Moslems are ordinary folk, just like you and I. Just like everywhere else there is good and bad in all cultures and it is my belief that the vast majority of ALL people are good. However, the minority that cause the issues are usually the the bad ones. Because the rest of us are too hard-working, polite and decent we do not complain too much and we would certainly never act against the bad ones even though we can see it is bad. They have been very clever, those bad ones, in as much as they have established that if you are against them, you must be against everything admirable they stand for. If you are anti-EDL, you are anti English. You would have us enslaved by a foreign power and all Morris dance would be replaced by satanic rites. If you are against the Imams who preach hate and incite murder, you must be anti-Islam, you want to cut the nadgers off every Moslem and turn mosques into bingo halls.

Trouble is now that a lot of ordinary folk have become indoctrinated in this philosophy. A lot of people believe the right wing nutters. A lot of people believe the manipulative Imams. Going back to something I said earlier, we have seen it happen before. A lot of people in pre-war Germany believed that if they were anti National Socialist (I will not mention the other N word for fear of invoking Godwins law) they were anti German and unpatriotic. We must make sure that it never happens again. In any society. It is up to us decent hard-working ordinary folk to stop the nutters taking over the asylum. Again. If we need help to do it then I would hope that the ordinary decent folk all over the world will help. If anyone else needs help, like the hard-working English Moslems, then we should help them too. Without fear of being accused of hate crimes.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:56 PM

"So, why did you feel the need to post it Fred?"

Allow me to offer an opinion on that question. He, like a few others on this thread, is attempting to conflate the opposition to Islamism with antipathty towards Muslims in general. Why they do this is a mystery to me as no one here (a couple of anonymous cranks excepted) have said or even implied that "the vast majority of Islamic people are bombers or murderers or terrorists". It is my belief that they are either seriously misinformed on the subject of militant Islamism or they are suffering from some sort of holier-than-thou complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:34 PM

Sorry.
Fred.
The vast majority of Islamic people are not bombers or murderers or terrorists. They are decent hard working respectable people and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the fanatics and nutters as a "security threat". Neither do they deserve the persecution which the vermin of the British far right are currently attempting to inflict on them.

All of that is true.
Not one person here has disputed any of those obvious, self-evident truths.
So, why did you feel the need to post it Fred?

Now what is your opinion of the Woolwich incident Fred?
Were they motivated by any religious beliefs they might have held?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:30 PM

Fred.
The vast majority of Islamic people are not bombers or murderers or terrorists. They are decent hard working respectable people and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the fanatics and nutters as a "security threat". Neither do they deserve the persecution which the vermin of the British far right are currently attempting to inflict on them.

All of that is true.
Not one person here has disputed any of those obvious, self-evident truths.
So, why did you feel the need to post it Fred?

Now what is your opinion of the Woolwich incident Fred?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 13 - 06:01 PM

Gee thanks Fred. Always an honour to be singled out by one of your sparkling intellect. An intellect which would no doubt have us believe that all that litany of nasty white murderers you have dug up must have done it because they had been urged on by the recalcitrant rectors and vindictive vicars of their parishes, citing --

now remind me, which chapters and verses of Leviticus or Deuteronomy would it have been?;

-- just the way all these Islamist blowers up and hackers down have been told it is their duty to Allah to do it by their imams, citing most precise Surahs from their holy book...

We all know that consistency in argument is your speciality and watchword [when not distracted into threatening severe physical violence against octogenarians for unfortunate slips of memory for which they have already apologised]; so, for the sake of your own consistency, that must be your point, mustn't it?

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 04:29 PM

Jim, this survey is reported on the BBC site.
Not too white supremacist I hope!

•36% of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared with 19% of over-55s
(20% would be about 500 000 people)

•59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared with 28% who would prefer to live under Sharia law.
(28% is about 700 000)

•7% "admire organisations like al-Qaeda that are prepared to fight the West". 13% of 16 to 24-year-olds agreed with this statement compared with 3% of over-55s
(7% is about 170 000 people!)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6309983.stm


MI5 knows of about 2000 sufficiently dangerous to keep a file on each of them but can not watch so many.
They have used that to convict many gangs now in the planning stages of mass murder attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 04:19 PM

Jim, while I am sure you are right on the subject of Islamaphobia, you are barking up the wrong tree with the opinion polls. Most of the stats detailed above were collected either by NOP or ICM research. Regardless of whether the polls were published on a white supremacist site, emel or the beano, they are, or seem to be, genuine opinion polls. None of the articles you quote refute their findings. They simply repeat things that you have said before and most of us already know without producing any facts or figures. You may well be right if you say the opinion polls are incorrect, but to argue against published figures without any proof is futile.

Fred, thanks for chipping in. Your posts are usually reasonable and well thought out. What you are saying is very true but, unless I am mistaken, no-one has said that all Moslems are terrorists or murderers. I cannot speak for others but my view is the same as yours. The vast majority are decent, hardworking, respectable people. However, the vast majority of Germans in the 1930s were the same. They didn't stand up to the thugs and look what happened. I am sure the vast majority of Cambodians were decent folk but in the 1970s an extremist faction gained power and the rest is history. I was pleased at the arrival of the 'Arab Spring' where those ordinary Moslems said enough is enough of the despotic and fanatical leaders. But it seems to have lost momentum. We need to help them in any way we can to rid themselves of those who approve of and sanction murder. Just like we need all the help we can get to rid ourselves of our warmongering politicians - of all parties!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 04:19 PM

So Carroll you were lying about the data coming from a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site". You were just trying to associate me with white supremists (sic) to try and smear me you lying piece of shit. I have never once in my life accessed a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site" but you seem to have some familiarity with them. Is that where you and your fellow travelers congregate to discuss the "Jewish problem"? You are scum. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 13 - 04:14 PM

militant radical Islamism seems to consist largely of isolated small groups gathered around so-called Imams
It might seem so to you, but that is shite.
Have you never heard of Al Qaeda, Taleban, Al shabab, Boko Haram, the recent war in Chad,.....
I did suggest you try looking it up Don, but you chose to demonstrate your profound ignorance to the world again.
I was being nice to you, silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:39 PM

where is don quixote when we need him

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 30 May 13 - 03:27 PM

I've been trying to stay out of this, but if you want a sure fire wooden nickel posting just trust to trusty old MtheGM.

I haven't got time to blue clicky it, but follow this link http://pastebin.com/Mbc0r8rD for a list of several hundred crimes perpetrated by members of the English Defence League. Does that mean we're all tarred with the same brush because we're all white? No it does not.

The racist murderers of Anthony Walker and Stephen Lawrence were likewise all white. Does the fact they posed a security risk to the Black community mean the rest of us do also? It most certainly does not.

David Copeland, who planted three nail bombs in London was/is a militant fascist and white supremacist whose murderous deeds must surely place him right alongside the most evil of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. Does that make me a threat to UK security because we share the same colour skin, social culture and probably religious background. I most sincerely hope not.

Let's get this straight. The vast majority of Islamic people are not bombers or murderers or terrorists. They are decent hard working respectable people and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the fanatics and nutters as a "security threat". Neither do they deserve the persecution which the vermin of the British far right are currently attempting to inflict on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 02:47 PM

"A great comfort to Mrs Rigby, we may be sure."
Care to offer some comfort to all those who have suffered and even died at the hands of racist bigots?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 13 - 02:11 PM

"the Muslim population in Britain is not officially considered a security threat."
,..,
A great comfort to Mrs Rigby, we may be sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 01:27 PM

"Every one of those figures is referenced, which are from a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site"
And every one of them contradict the information coming fro elsewhere, including the speech from the MI5 head.
Whatever opinions your polls come up with, in reality the Muslim population in Britain is not officially considered a security threat.
How about some other gathered information - from neither white supremist not Muslim site in return.
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/
https://news.liv.ac.uk/2013/02/08/the-liverpool-view-islamophobia-in-contemporary-britain/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/the-shameful-islamophobia-at-the-heart-of-britains-press-861096.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shahnaz-taplinchinoy/in-britain-politics-of-is_b_908119.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 13 - 01:01 PM

"When the half million (the figure you quote)"
The figure I quoted was one and a half million.

Sorry, Jim. I wasn't really paying attention. I have a tad of ADD, especially where rants are concerned!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:56 PM

Every one of those figures is referenced, which are from a "self confessed white supremist (sic) site"?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:15 PM

"The apologists demand figures then reject them when provided - anyone surprised?"
The Islamophobes dredge up a bunch of 'facts' from a self confessed white supremist site and act affronted when they are called into question - anybody surprised?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 13 - 12:11 PM

The apologists demand figures then reject them when provided - anyone surprised?