CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'

Subject: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:43 PM

Hi folks,

I know how tired most of you are of the "what is" and "what isn't" folk music question.   But I have a practical concern.

I'm part of the programming committee for Peach City Radio, and also have my own show---Larry Saidman's Top 200 Albums of All Time.

Since at some point we are applying to be a broadcast station (right now we're online ((peachcityradio.org)) ), but we want to follow the guidelines for the Canadian Radio and Television Commission (CRTC) which requires a certain percentage of music that is not pop or country. In those other Specialty categories you also don't have to play as high a proportion of Canadian music.

One specialty category is called "Folk or Folk Oriented". They define it this ways.

        "Subscategory 32: Folk and folk-oriented
        This genre includes authentic, traditional folk music, as well as contemporary folk-oriented music, that draw substantially on traditional folk music in style and performance. It includes old-time country music recorded before the 1950s, and traditional bluegrass."

I'm fairly clear as to what is meant by old time country, bluegrass, and traditional folk.   But the "contemporary folk oriented music" is confusing.

I've searched the CRTC website for more clarification, but there is none. Apparently though much of their policing of this is complaint driven.

So, in a sense, people who are interested in 'folk oriented' music are the experts.   That's some of you.

So here is my question.   

What do you consider to be 'folk oriented' and what would, in your mine, be clearly bleeding into the 'pop' or contemporary country categories.   It's ok to give me examples.

And, of course, if you've had experience with the CRTC, that would be nice to hear your experience.

But I also want to hear from any of you with an opinion.   

What recordings would you call "Contemporary Folk Oriented" music...from that very vague definition given by the CRTC.

I'

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Tootler
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:53 AM

I suggest people whose origins or roots are in folk music but who write (and perform) their own songs would fit in that category.

Also modern songs which draw on traditional song for their inspiration.

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:43 AM

Thanks for the response, tootler.

So for the first category---singer-songwriters whose roots are in folk. Would Gordon Lightfoot be in that category? How about John Stewart (formerly of the Kingston Trio).......even his pop hit of "GOld"?    Richard Thompson---even his electric stuff (as his early group, Fairport Convention did do lots of traditional music).? How about the "Phil Ochs greatest hits" album.   Or modern Bob Dylan?

MOdern songs that draw on traditional sources: The Wreck of The Edmund Fitzgerald? (LIghtfoot).   How about Moby when he did that song that sampled the traditional blues/gospel song of Vera Hall "Trouble So Hard".

I"d love to hear some examples of modern songs that draw on traditional song for their inspiration-----and when is it deviating too far from the tradition in order to be considered "folk oriented".

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:23 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:44 PM

There surely can't be more than one employee at the CRTC checking that stations meet this guideline.

Any chance you can find who it is and ask them in person how they decide?

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 23 May 13 - 09:31 PM

The CRTC is a huge bureaucracy......and I suspect that nobody knows exactly how they decide. They probably have various 'police' depending on the region of the country. And they do state that one justification (maybe similar to that criteria one person gave for calling something 'folk' was if people sing it at folk clubs) for calling a song 'folk' (or folk oriented) is if it's played as part of a 'folk' program.

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:02 AM

I have zero knowledge of CRTC. However it should be fairly obvious in most cases what music is NOT 'folk-oriented'- it's only at the margins that there might be some doubt, in which case it becomes a matter of opinion.

My guess is they wouldn't be interested if you play the occasional questionable track. What is more likely to attract their attention is if you appear to be using the special category to obtain special privileges which you're then abusing by playing a large proportion of non-complying music. They're not the folk police and won't be interested in the esoteric arguments we get into on here. I don't think they're likely to come down on you over individual tracks, however if you were to put on shows consisting entirely of heavy metal, disco, jazz or classical then they might take an interest.

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:21 PM

Thanks for your input, Howard.

It's those 'margin' that end up being so difficult....and I know that much of the music I play on my program is in those margins.

Here's a list of what I'm playing in my first 12 programs or so of my Top 200.

Some of it is clearly 'folk oriented'...Karen Dalton, Don McLean, Belle Starr, Leonard Cohen, Pete Seeger, Pentangle, Joni Mitchell, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Bud and Travis, Emmylou Harris (doing Wayfaring Stranger), Tom Rush, David Wiffen, Stan Rogers, Kate Campbell, Dave Van Ronk, Richard White, Nancy White.   Do you agree?

Others are clearly jazz or world....which is fine, as that is also Category 3 (non-pop music).

But a lot is very marginal. Where woulde we put Pearls Before Swine, Mickey Newbury, Paul Simon, Lonnie Johnson (singing and playing Summertime), Greg Garing, Michael Nesmith (singing "Texas Morning"), Randy Newman, Shel Silverstein, Chad Mitchell, etc.

So what percentage of this program should be category 3 (folk, folk oriented, world, jazz, classical) and what would be category 2 (pop, dance, contemporary country (50's or later)?

That's my dilemma. And if I can figure that out for my program, than I can give guidance to other programmers.

LARRY SAIDMAN'S TOP 200 ALBUMS OF ALL TIME

200. Karen Dalton: It's So Hard to Tell Who's Going to Love You The Best. (1969)
            song: In the Evenin' (trad).

199. Talking Heads 77.   (1977)
                 song: Tentative Decisions (David Byrne)

198: Tony Kosinec: The Passerby (1985)
              song: Listen to The Hukilau (Kosinec)

197.   Andrew Hill: Compulsion (1968)
            selection: Compulsion (part )

196. Pete Seeger: Carnegie Hall Concert (1963)
        song: Guantanamera (Josi Marti, Hector Angulo)

195. James Brown: I Got The Feeling    (1968)
        song: I Got the Feeling (J. Brown)

194.   Jake Holmes: The Above Ground Sound of Jake Holmes (1967)
               songs:   Dazed and Confused (Holmes), Penny's (Holmes)

193 Folk Implosion: One Part Lullaby (1999)
        song: Mechanical Man (Barlow, Louis, Davis)

192. Joni Mitchell: Ladies of the Canyon (1970
        Song: For Free (Mitchell)
191. Don Gibson: Touch the Morning (1973)
        Song: Sweet Dreams (Gibson)

190. Hensley's Electric Jazz Band & Synthetic Symphonette: Masters of Deceit (1969)
        Song: Shining (Hensley, Bagshaw)

189. Paul Butterfield Band: Better Days. (1973)
        Song: Please Send Me Someone to Love (Percy Mayfield)

188. Neil Young: Harvest (1972)
        Song: Are You Ready For the Country (Young)

187. Oingo Boingo: Only a Lad. (1981)
        song: Only a Lad (Danny Elfman)

186. Pete Wingfield: Breakfast Special (1975)
        Song: 18 With A bullet (Wingfield)

185. Patricia Barber: Nightclub (2001)
        song: You Don't Know Me (Cindy Walker, Eddy Arnold)

#184: Eugene McDaniels: Outlaw   (1970).
        Song: Sagittarius Red (McDaniels)      

#183. Michael Nesmith & The First National Band: Nevada Fighter. (1971)
        song: Texas Morning (Michael Murphy)

#182 Jackie DeShannon: Laurel Canyon.   (1968)
        song: The Weight (R. Robinson).

#181: Sum1: Islands with Beautiful Names (1995)
        song: Definition(Part)/Columbus (Dana Frauzel)        

#180: Bud and Travis: Latin Album   (1965)
song: Malaguena Salerosa (trad).

#179: Prince: Purple Rain (1984)
song:Darling Nikki

#178: Thelonius Monk: Straight No Chaser. (1966)
        Song: Straight No Chaser

#177: Dave Edmunds: Repeat when Necessary (1979)
        songs: Crawling from The Wreckage(Graham Parker), Queen of Hearts (Hank DeVito)

#176. Greg Garing: Alone    (1987)
        song: Alone (Garing, Andrea Kirsten)

#175. Danny Kaye: Danny Kaye (1942)
        song: Dinah. (Lewis, Young, Akst).

#174   Randy Newman: Good Old Boys. (1974)
        Song: Marie (Newman).

#173. Buffy Sainte Marie: It's My Way    (1964)
        Song: It's My Way (Sainte-Marie)

#172.Dan Mangan:Nice Nice Very Nice. (2010)
        Song: Tina's Glorious Comeback.

#171. Tim Buckley: StarSailor (1970)
        song: Monterey (Larry Beckett, Tim Buckley)

#170.Nellie Lutcher:Our New Nellie.(1956).
        Song: You Made Me Love You. (James V. Monaco, Joseph McCarthy)

#169. The Zombies: Begin Here (1965)
        songs: She's Not There (Rod Argent)/I Remember When I Loved Her (Argent).

#168.   Shel Silverstein: Songs and Stories. (1978)
        Song: Scum of The Earth.

#167. Emmylou Harris: Roses in the Snow (1980)
        song: Wayfaring Stranger.
        
#166. David Wiffen: Coast to Coast Fever. (1972)
Song: Skybound Station

#165. Stan Rogers: Fogerty's Cove (1976).
Song: Make and Break Harbour

#164. Tom Rush:   Self Titled. (1970, Columbia).
Song: Old Man's Song (Murray McLaughlin).

#163. Eurythmics: Touch (1983)
        Song: Here Comes the Rain Again

#162. Tal Farlow and Lenny Breau: Chance Meeting. (1980/1987)
Song: My Foolish Heart.

#161. The Eels:   Souljacker (2001)
        Songs: Bus Stop Boxer / That's Not Really Funny

#160.   John Anderson: Seminole Wind (1992)
        song: Straight Tequila Night

#159. Darius Milhaud: MIlhaud Plays Milhaud (1956)
La Sur de la toit. (Nothing Doing Bar). (composed 1920).

#158. Tom T. Hall: In Search of a Song.(1971)
Song: WHO'S GONNA FEED THEM HOGS.

#157. Sly & The Family Stone: Stand(1969) .   
song:I WANT TO TAKE YOU HIGHER

# 156 Randy Newman: (1981)   Ragtime (soundtrack)
Song: RAGTIME/ONE MORE HOUR (Jennifer Warnes)
   
#155. Quicksilver Messenger Service: Happy Trails. (1968)
Song: MONA/MAIDEN OF THE CANCER MOON/CALVARY.

# 154. Carole King: Tapestry (1971).
song: IT'S TOO LATE. 3:54

#153. . Mickey Newbury: Blue to This Day (2003)   
song: HELP ME SON


extra song.   Mrs. Linda---Nancy White (from Unexpected, 1983. 3:04.


# 152. The Rivingtons: Doin' the Bird. (1962)
        Songs: MAMA OOM MOW MOW/PAPA OOM MOW MOW


# 151. . LAMBCHOP: What Another Man Spills. (1998)
Song: INTERRUPTED.

150. Stan Getz and Charlie Byrd:   (1962)   
song: SAMBA TRISTE.

Extra song: Richard White: Ladies and Gentlemen. (1983) Song: AUTUMN IN PARIS.

149. Michael Nesmith: Tropical Campfires (1994).
Song: FOR THE ISLAND

148. Kate Campbell: Visions of Plenty (1988)).
Songs: BOWLORAMA/CRAZY IN ALABAMA

#147. Patti Smith: Horses (Dec/1975).
Song: IN EXCELSIS DEO/GLORIA   

146. Dave Van Ronk: Songs for Aging Children (1973)
Songs: I WANNA GO BACK TO MY LITTLE GRASS SHACK/GREEN ROCKY ROAD.   

145. Sarah Vaughan: After Hours (1960.
SONG: SOPHISTICATED LADY./ EVERYTIME WE SAY GOODBYE

144. Dire Straits: Making Movies. \
Song: ROMEO AND JULIET.

143. Mac Wiseman: Songs that Made the Jukebox Famous.(1980)
Song: IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE NOW/I WONDER HOW THE OLD FOLKS ARE AT HOME

142. Billy Joe Shaver (w. Eddie Shaver).
Song: I'VE BEEN TO GEORGIA ON A FAST TRAIN/OLD CHUNK OF COAL.

Extra song (Canadian addition:   Joe Hall:Volume Five Number Two.(1976)   
Song: PREPARING TO BEGIN. 4:31.

141. Chad Mitchell: Himself (1966)
song: MARIEKE/HALF A CROWN.

140. Patti Smith: Wave (1979)
song: WAVE (4:36).

139. Geoff and Maria Muldaur: Pottery Pie. (1968).
SONGS: NEW ORLEANS HOPSCOP BLUES /GUIDE ME O GREAT JEHOVAH

138. Bela Fleck and The Flecktones (w. Victor Wooton):Three Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
SONG: MONKEY SEE./VIX 9

137. Gordon Lightfoot: Sit Down Young Stranger.
SONG: APPROACHING LAVENDER/ME AND BOBBY MCGEE

136. Mary Chapin Carpenter: Stones in the Road.
Song: WHY WALK WHEN YOU CAN FLY.

extra song. Lonnie Johnson: The Complete Folkways Collection (1967). Song: SUMMERTIME. 2:

135. King Crimson: Court of the Crimson King (1969)
song: EPITAPH

134. Paul Simon: There Goes Rhymin' Simon (1973)
song: SOMETHING SO RIGHT.

133. Eugene McDaniels: Screams and Whispers.
        Song: NUCLEAR DANCING

132. Jennifer Warnes: Famous Blue Raincoat
song: FIRST WE TAKE MANHATTAN

131.   Shpil Es Nokh a Mal: Orkestre Klezmer Volume 2
SONGS: ONGA BUCHARESTI 2:20 /7 BEAT MACEDONIAN. 2:24.

130. The Pentangle: Sweet Child (double lp, 1968.
song: HOLE IN THE COAL.5:20

129. Eric Burdon and the Animals: Winds of Change
song: PAINT IT BLACK 6:00

128. Nick Lowe: Pure Pop for Now People.
Songs: MARIE PROVOST 2:42. /I LOVE THE SOUND OF BREAKING GLASS. 2:51.

127. Pearls Before Swine: Beautiful Lies You Could Live In.(1971)   
SONG: A LIFE 2:55.

126.   ELECTRONIC MUSIC. (1967?),
SELECTION: VISAGE. Mimaroglu/Cathy Berberian

Extra song: (Canadian) BELLE STARR:The Burning Of Atlanta.
Song: SUMMERLEA(Fred Eaglesmith) 3:54


125. Leonard Cohen: Songs of Leonard Cohen.
        Song: SISTERS OF MERCY

124. Elvis Presley: Elvis Presley (1st lp w. some tracks from Sun Sessions).
        Songs: I'M COUNTING ON YOU/TRYIN' TO GET TO YOU.

123. Ilya: Somerset
        Song. AND STILL YOU CAN"T SAY NO.

Extra.   David Ackles: EVERYBODY HAS A STORY (From Five and Dime).

122. Don MacLean: Tapestry
        Song: THREE FLIGHTS UP.

121. Mickey Newbury: Lovers. Song: APPLES DIPPED IN CANDY.

120. Khada Cherif Hadria: Diri Kitabri (1995) song: DAHAOUTATOU 4:39

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:54 PM

Leonard Cohen is folk?

Heavens to Betsy!

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:57 PM

I saw your post in the other thread & was hoping you'd refresh this thread - so I wouldn't have to search for it... lazy sod that I am

back in the day, I was a volunteer host for a Folk Show on a public radio station out of SUNY-Stony Brook. And while we could push the envelope, in fairness to the audience we did stick to our mission of presenting traditional & "modern" folk artists. Simon & Garfunkel may be listed as "folk rock", but this is not what people were tuning in to hear. And we often featured performers who "just happened" to be in the next concert presented by the local folk music groups... LOL heh, they need all the support they can get to stay viable.

so it's not just what fits the "label", but what do your potenital listeners expect or hope to hear? Is there a sizable Scottish or Irish population in your area? Celtic music may fit the bill. Five hours of Balkan women's music may fulfill the CRTC requirements...   but you could lose your listeners at the same time.

It's always easier to find what they didn't like... complaints always seem to outnumber the compliments. If you're already on the internet, then try out some artists and ask for some feedback. But I do think you will need to satisfy the on-air audience as much as a bureaucratic requirement. imho

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:10 PM

Thanks for your feedback, Q and science geek. I have lots of musical knowledge but am quite ignorant of 'categories'. So it's great to hear that at least one person is aghast that I'd classify Leonard Cohen as folk oriented.

And science geek, as for potential listeners? One thing about community radio is we 'build up' potential listeners.....so I'm quite clear with my Top 200 Albums of All Time that these are very personal......and the 'curiosity' factor is just as important as any entertainment factor.   The eclecticism and unpredictability is a very important factor.

But yes....if I had specifically a 'folk oriented' program, then it would be very useful to reflect the community.   In fact, from your definition of 'folk', that would be an absolute requirement, wouldn't it.

For CRTC categories? Well, who knows.

Subject: RE: CRTC Category of 'Folk or Folk Oriented'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:15 PM

Cohen is not folk, but he plays an acoustic guitar and mumbles so for those who do not stick to "folk" he is clearly folk oriented. Pretty well anything with acoustic instruments is "folk oriented", but I think you are wise to distinguish that from "folk".