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BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found

beardedbruce 24 May 13 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 24 May 13 - 11:44 AM
JohnInKansas 24 May 13 - 11:52 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 May 13 - 01:15 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 May 13 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 24 May 13 - 01:56 PM
beardedbruce 24 May 13 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Alan 24 May 13 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Eliza 24 May 13 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 24 May 13 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Alan 24 May 13 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Eliza 24 May 13 - 03:01 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 13 - 03:37 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 13 - 03:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 May 13 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,Lorgain Guest 24 May 13 - 05:15 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 May 13 - 05:28 PM
Rapparee 24 May 13 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,Eliza 24 May 13 - 06:40 PM
Jim Martin 25 May 13 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,leeneia 25 May 13 - 10:07 AM
LadyJean 25 May 13 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 26 May 13 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,ollaimh 26 May 13 - 07:04 AM
Richard Bridge 26 May 13 - 07:29 AM
Jim Martin 26 May 13 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 26 May 13 - 07:58 AM
Rapparee 26 May 13 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Triplane 26 May 13 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 26 May 13 - 04:37 PM
Rapparee 26 May 13 - 09:48 PM
Joe Offer 27 May 13 - 12:15 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 13 - 03:12 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 27 May 13 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 27 May 13 - 05:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 14 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 11 Mar 14 - 02:42 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 14 - 04:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 02:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 02:27 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 04:02 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 04:44 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 04:58 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 05:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 06:17 AM
Musket 12 Mar 14 - 06:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 08:42 AM
Allan C. 12 Mar 14 - 08:42 AM
Jeri 12 Mar 14 - 09:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 10:35 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 10:44 AM
Teribus 12 Mar 14 - 11:11 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 11:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 12:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 14 - 03:18 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 03:34 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Mar 14 - 04:17 PM
Jeri 12 Mar 14 - 04:36 PM
Stilly River Sage 12 Mar 14 - 04:51 PM
Mr Red 12 Mar 14 - 05:20 PM
GUEST 12 Mar 14 - 07:28 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 14 - 03:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 14 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 14 - 04:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 14 - 04:42 AM
Musket 13 Mar 14 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 14 - 04:50 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 14 - 06:52 AM
Musket 13 Mar 14 - 07:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 14 - 07:53 AM
Allan C. 13 Mar 14 - 09:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 08:34 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 14 - 01:12 PM
Musket 14 Mar 14 - 01:55 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 02:06 PM
bubblyrat 14 Mar 14 - 02:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 14 - 04:08 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 04:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 14 - 04:29 PM
Greg F. 14 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 14 - 06:16 PM
Greg F. 14 Mar 14 - 06:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Musket 15 Mar 14 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 06:18 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 07:37 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 07:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 14 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 11:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 11:57 AM
Musket 15 Mar 14 - 12:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 12:24 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 14 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 14 - 05:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 06:45 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 14 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 06:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 14 - 08:25 AM
Musket 16 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 09:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 14 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 14 - 03:09 PM
Teribus 17 Mar 14 - 04:37 AM
Musket 17 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 14 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 14 - 05:29 AM
Musket 17 Mar 14 - 06:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 14 - 06:06 AM
Teribus 17 Mar 14 - 10:42 AM
Greg F. 17 Mar 14 - 11:32 AM
sciencegeek 17 Mar 14 - 01:58 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 14 - 02:44 PM
Musket 17 Mar 14 - 03:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 14 - 04:31 PM
Teribus 18 Mar 14 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 05:47 AM
Teribus 18 Mar 14 - 08:48 AM
sciencegeek 18 Mar 14 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 11:47 AM
Teribus 18 Mar 14 - 12:08 PM
sciencegeek 18 Mar 14 - 12:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 02:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 14 - 04:27 PM
Teribus 19 Mar 14 - 03:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Mar 14 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 14 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Mar 14 - 07:18 AM
Teribus 19 Mar 14 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Mar 14 - 08:31 AM
sciencegeek 19 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM
sciencegeek 19 Mar 14 - 09:44 AM
sciencegeek 19 Mar 14 - 10:06 AM
Teribus 19 Mar 14 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM
pdq 19 Mar 14 - 11:50 AM
sciencegeek 19 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM
sciencegeek 19 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM
sciencegeek 19 Mar 14 - 01:36 PM
Greg F. 19 Mar 14 - 02:15 PM
Greg F. 19 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM
sciencegeek 19 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM
mg 19 Mar 14 - 06:33 PM
Teribus 20 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 14 - 06:34 AM
sciencegeek 20 Mar 14 - 07:22 AM
sciencegeek 20 Mar 14 - 09:28 AM
sciencegeek 20 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM
sciencegeek 20 Mar 14 - 10:19 AM
Teribus 20 Mar 14 - 10:46 AM
Greg F. 20 Mar 14 - 11:05 AM
sciencegeek 20 Mar 14 - 11:15 AM
mg 20 Mar 14 - 01:37 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 14 - 01:49 PM
sciencegeek 20 Mar 14 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 14 - 02:10 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 14 - 03:31 AM
GUEST,Musket 21 Mar 14 - 04:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 14 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 05:00 AM
sciencegeek 21 Mar 14 - 05:05 AM
sciencegeek 21 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM
Musket 21 Mar 14 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 06:33 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 14 - 06:57 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 14 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 07:32 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 07:35 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 14 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 14 - 07:53 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 14 - 07:57 AM
kendall 21 Mar 14 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 08:17 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 08:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 14 - 08:39 AM
sciencegeek 21 Mar 14 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 14 - 09:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 14 - 09:06 AM
Greg F. 21 Mar 14 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 09:29 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 14 - 09:55 AM
sciencegeek 21 Mar 14 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 10:05 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 14 - 10:10 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM
sciencegeek 21 Mar 14 - 10:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 14 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 10:28 AM
pdq 21 Mar 14 - 10:45 AM
Greg F. 21 Mar 14 - 10:55 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 10:57 AM
Greg F. 21 Mar 14 - 10:59 AM
mg 21 Mar 14 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Musket 21 Mar 14 - 01:16 PM
sciencegeek 21 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 14 - 04:14 PM
sciencegeek 22 Mar 14 - 07:48 AM
sciencegeek 22 Mar 14 - 07:59 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 09:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 01:57 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,Stringsinger 22 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 03:32 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 03:55 PM
GUEST 22 Mar 14 - 04:41 PM
sciencegeek 22 Mar 14 - 05:28 PM
Greg F. 22 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 06:59 PM
Greg F. 22 Mar 14 - 08:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 14 - 03:03 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 14 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 14 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 14 - 06:56 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 14 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 14 - 08:48 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 14 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM
sciencegeek 23 Mar 14 - 09:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 14 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 14 - 11:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 14 - 12:38 PM
Greg F. 23 Mar 14 - 12:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 14 - 02:24 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 03:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 14 - 03:42 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 04:16 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 04:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 14 - 05:53 AM
Greg F. 24 Mar 14 - 09:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 14 - 09:26 AM
Teribus 24 Mar 14 - 11:03 AM
Greg F. 24 Mar 14 - 11:17 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 11:40 AM
Teribus 24 Mar 14 - 11:54 AM
sciencegeek 24 Mar 14 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 12:23 PM
mg 24 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 14 - 12:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 14 - 01:06 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 01:09 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 02:28 PM
sciencegeek 24 Mar 14 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 03:33 PM
sciencegeek 24 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM
pdq 24 Mar 14 - 03:49 PM
Greg F. 24 Mar 14 - 04:09 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 04:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 14 - 04:51 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 14 - 04:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 14 - 05:48 PM
Teribus 25 Mar 14 - 04:34 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 25 Mar 14 - 05:28 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 14 - 05:38 AM
Teribus 25 Mar 14 - 05:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 14 - 06:20 AM
Musket 25 Mar 14 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 14 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 14 - 06:40 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 14 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 14 - 07:21 AM
Teribus 25 Mar 14 - 08:15 AM
Musket 25 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 14 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM
sciencegeek 25 Mar 14 - 09:15 AM
Greg F. 25 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 14 - 10:10 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 14 - 10:15 AM
sciencegeek 25 Mar 14 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 14 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 14 - 01:39 PM
Musket 25 Mar 14 - 02:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 14 - 05:56 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 14 - 03:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 14 - 03:45 AM
Teribus 26 Mar 14 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,Musket 26 Mar 14 - 04:05 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 14 - 04:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM
Teribus 26 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 14 - 07:27 AM
sciencegeek 26 Mar 14 - 08:44 AM
Teribus 26 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 14 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM
Teribus 26 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM
Greg F. 26 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 14 - 09:49 AM
Teribus 26 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM
sciencegeek 26 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM
Teribus 26 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM
Teribus 26 Mar 14 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 14 - 11:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 14 - 12:15 PM
Musket 26 Mar 14 - 12:18 PM
sciencegeek 26 Mar 14 - 12:51 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Mar 14 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,guest 26 Mar 14 - 09:53 PM
Teribus 27 Mar 14 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 14 - 04:49 AM
Teribus 27 Mar 14 - 05:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 14 - 05:07 AM
Teribus 27 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 14 - 06:18 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 14 - 06:29 AM
Teribus 27 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 14 - 08:09 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM
Teribus 27 Mar 14 - 08:34 AM
GUEST 27 Mar 14 - 08:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 14 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 14 - 09:35 AM
Musket 27 Mar 14 - 09:57 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 14 - 04:13 PM
Greg F. 27 Mar 14 - 06:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 02:24 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 14 - 03:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 14 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 14 - 04:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 05:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 05:59 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM
sciencegeek 28 Mar 14 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 06:41 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 14 - 07:01 AM
sciencegeek 28 Mar 14 - 07:05 AM
Teribus 28 Mar 14 - 08:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM
Greg F. 28 Mar 14 - 09:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 09:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 09:13 AM
Teribus 28 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM
Teribus 28 Mar 14 - 09:50 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 14 - 10:04 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 14 - 10:12 AM
Teribus 28 Mar 14 - 10:15 AM
Greg F. 28 Mar 14 - 10:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 14 - 03:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 14 - 04:26 PM
Greg F. 28 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 14 - 01:49 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 14 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 14 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 14 - 08:32 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM
Greg F. 30 Mar 14 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 14 - 10:43 AM
Greg F. 30 Mar 14 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 14 - 11:20 AM
Jeri 30 Mar 14 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 14 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 14 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 14 - 12:04 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 14 - 12:25 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 14 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 14 - 12:29 PM
Greg F. 30 Mar 14 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 14 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 14 - 01:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 14 - 01:15 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 04:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 14 - 04:41 AM
Teribus 31 Mar 14 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 05:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 06:02 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 06:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 14 - 07:43 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM
Teribus 31 Mar 14 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 31 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 14 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM
pdq 31 Mar 14 - 10:51 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 10:55 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 14 - 03:32 PM
Greg F. 31 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 03:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 14 - 03:56 PM
pdq 31 Mar 14 - 04:27 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 05:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 14 - 05:51 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 08:07 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 14 - 08:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 14 - 02:19 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 03:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 14 - 04:40 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 07:55 AM
Greg F. 01 Apr 14 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 14 - 09:47 AM
Greg F. 01 Apr 14 - 09:51 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 10:33 AM
Greg F. 01 Apr 14 - 10:57 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 01 Apr 14 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 01 Apr 14 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM
Musket 01 Apr 14 - 12:29 PM
Greg F. 01 Apr 14 - 12:39 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 01:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 14 - 03:09 PM
Greg F. 01 Apr 14 - 03:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 14 - 04:07 PM
Greg F. 01 Apr 14 - 04:11 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 05:20 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 14 - 05:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 02:24 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 03:03 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 03:22 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 03:51 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 05:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 05:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 06:26 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 07:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 07:51 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 08:26 AM
Teribus 02 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 01:06 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 01:28 PM
pdq 02 Apr 14 - 02:01 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 14 - 02:51 PM
Greg F. 02 Apr 14 - 03:13 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 04:11 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 04:14 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 14 - 04:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 02:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 03:21 AM
Teribus 03 Apr 14 - 03:39 AM
Teribus 03 Apr 14 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 04:17 AM
Teribus 03 Apr 14 - 05:04 AM
Teribus 03 Apr 14 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 05:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 06:02 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 06:06 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 06:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 07:12 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 07:56 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 08:25 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 08:34 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 09:50 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 09:50 AM
Teribus 03 Apr 14 - 09:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 10:04 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 10:44 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 11:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 11:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 11:38 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 12:17 PM
pdq 03 Apr 14 - 12:44 PM
GUEST 03 Apr 14 - 02:12 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 03:15 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 03:21 PM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 14 - 03:24 PM
pdq 03 Apr 14 - 03:29 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 14 - 03:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 14 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 14 - 04:02 PM
pdq 03 Apr 14 - 04:25 PM
Greg F. 03 Apr 14 - 04:59 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 03:43 AM
Teribus 04 Apr 14 - 03:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 14 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM
Teribus 04 Apr 14 - 04:58 AM
Teribus 04 Apr 14 - 05:05 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 05:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 14 - 05:14 AM
Teribus 04 Apr 14 - 05:38 AM
Teribus 04 Apr 14 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 06:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 14 - 06:36 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 07:22 AM
Teribus 04 Apr 14 - 09:41 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 09:58 AM
pdq 04 Apr 14 - 10:05 AM
beardedbruce 04 Apr 14 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 10:18 AM
pdq 04 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM
pdq 04 Apr 14 - 10:36 AM
pdq 04 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM
Greg F. 04 Apr 14 - 11:09 AM
beardedbruce 04 Apr 14 - 11:15 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 14 - 11:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 14 - 04:56 PM
pdq 05 Apr 14 - 02:31 PM
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Subject: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:36 AM

The Irish potato famine that caused mass starvation and approximately 1 million deaths in the mid-19th century was triggered by a newly identified strain of potato blight that has been christened "HERB-1," according to a new study.



http://news.yahoo.com/mystery-irish-potato-famine-solved-140830483.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:44 AM

For flip's sake! Everbuddy knows the flippin' cause of the potato famine, man! It was that there wasn't enuff potatos for awhiles becoz of diseese and so the people got too hungry and they all started starvin' to death. That is why my fambly the McBrides came to North America in the first plase, eh? Canada can thank the flippin' potato famine coz without it I wood not BE here! And that would be a trajeddy.

- Shane


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:52 AM

A very interesting note in the articles about this new finding is the belief that the blight was a "new thing" that was somewhat different, genetically, from any previous similar crop diseases, and more importantly - if true - the people who reported this result believe it may have "run its course" and may be extinct now.

Of course we "eradicated smallpox" too(?), but that hasn't prevented at least three research labs from making it "from scratch" in the lab.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:15 PM

This particular strain may have run its course, but the P. infestans species complex continues, and it has shown its variability.

The article is well-worth reading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:33 PM

They may have found what destroyed the taties, but what mostly caused the famine was - to put it at its least contentious - indifference within what was then the British Ruling Class.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:56 PM

'fraid I have to agree with Peter K - my first thought when I saw the OP was that we may have a better ID on the cause of the potato blight, but the famine was a whole different matter.

Ireland was EXPORTING food, while the Irish people starved. And there has been speculation that many of the landed gentry thought it was a good way to bring the "lazy Irish" into submission - since before the blight it was easy enough to feed an Irish family from the potato crop and not have to submit to the typical type of labor that the industrialized areas of Great Britain were forced into to make a so called "living wage".


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:59 PM

No disagreement with last two posts- thread title SHOULD have been
"Irish Potato Blight- Cause Found"

Mea culpa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:20 PM

There was no famine in Ireland, just a potato blight. Plenty of other vegetables were grown by the Irish,unfortunately England took them from Ireland and left the people to starve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:46 PM

Am I right in thinking that the British offered the Irish corn for famine relief, which was rather stupid of them as such grain was not known and the people had no way of grinding/preparing it? I'm sure I read that somewhere. Also, despicably, the poor souls were regarded as little better than animals and not worth bothering about. My mother was Irish, a Duffy from Cork. Even in her day, there were signs on B&Bs and lodgings in London, NO IRISH OR COLOUREDS. The particular strain of potato blight caused the spuds to go black and turn to stinking mush in the ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:52 PM

mea culpa accepted, bb

Not every variety of potato is equally suceptible to blight and in the Andes were they originated, there are dozens if not hundreds of cultivars/varieties. Most of the irish potatos were all basically the same plant, since it is replanted from the cut up tuber... vegetative reproduction as opposed to sexual reproduction from fertilized seeds.

but another "ironic" point is that prior to the introduction of the potato - which many Europeans distrusted due to it being a member of the nightshade family, it often took drastic measures to force people to eat them- a mainstay of the Irish was the turnip (the original jack o lantern) which was not affected by the blight. But there was no real effort to provide seed for other crops and not everyone probably remembered how to grow much of anything else.

I guess this is an good reason to help preserve heritage varieties of food crops and livestock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:55 PM

Eliza, Indian corn was sold to the Irish during the great hunger, it wasn't gifted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:01 PM

Ah, thank you Alan. It was maize then. How cruel to try to sell it to them. Am I right (sorry about senile questions, wait until you get to my age!) in saying there's a reference to this in Fields of Athenry, about some British politician and his cursed corn?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:37 PM

As has been pointed out, The Famine was only part of the problem of what happened in Ireland.
Mismanagement was common and misappropriation of relief supplies occurred regularly. Relief supplies were stolen by those given the task of distributing them and resold; relief money was misappropriated regularly.
Around here they still refer to the walls around the fields on one of the old landlord's estates as "the shilling walls" because, although the workers on famine relief where supposed to be paid half-a-crown for their labour, they were in fact given one shilling, the landlord pocketing the rest.
A local building here is still referred to as "Balls' school; it was run as a school by a clergyman, Mr Balls, who was what they still call "A souper". The children were given free soup, but only ON CONDITION THAT they changed their religion to Protestant.
Landlords evicted tenants who were unable to pay their rent and knocked the houses down so they could not return to them. If the evicted tenants were lucky the local County Home (workhouse) would take them in, but usually they died at the sides of the road.
There is a tradition here called "the hungry grass" - they are stretches of land said to contain unmarked famine graves, and if you walked over them it is claimed that you get hunger pains.
One of the positive stories from that time was of how a cart going around collecting the bodies of those who had died on the roads turned from the main street and up the hill towards the graveyard. One of the bodies rolled off and landed at the side of the road outside a smithy.
The smith ran out and found that the 'corpse' wasn't dead; took him in, fed him up and offered him a job. He survived for another 20 years.
One of the best historical accounts of the Famine the book, 'The Great Hunger', written by an Englishwoman, Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith, and probably the finest fictionalised reconstruction, simple entitled 'Famine' was by Irish Author Liam O'Flaherty.
The most horrific episode I've come across of this time took place in Cork - I think in Skibbereen, one of the worst hit places in Ireland.
Jim Carroll

From the 'Cork Examiner' of March 19th, 1847 reporting on a court case in which a man had been charged with stealing food.
He said he was driven to it by what had happened to his wife. The court was told: The starving woman lay in her hovel next to her dead three year old son, waiting for her husband to return from begging food. When night fell and his failure to return led her to imagine him dead in a ditch, she lay there in the faint fire's dying embers, caressing with her eyes her dead son's face and his tiny fists.
With death searching her and now with her own fists clenched, she made one last effort to remain alive. Crawling as far away from her son's face as she could, as if to preserve his personality or at least her memory of it, she came to his bare feet and proceeded to eat them.
When her husband returned and saw what had happened, he buried the child, went out, and was caught trying to steal food. At his trial the magistrate from his immediate district intervened on his behalf, citing the wife's act as a circumstance deserving special consideration. The baby's body was exhumed, the flesh of both its feet and legs found to have been gnawed to the bone, and the husband released and allowed to return to his wife.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:41 PM

"Even in her day, there were signs on B&Bs and lodgings in London, NO IRISH OR COLOUREDS."
Still around in Liverpool when I was a child were signs in lodging houses saying "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:05 PM

The name "Corn," applied in UK-Ireland of that time, was a generic term for cereal crops.

In N. Am., nowadays maize comes to mind when someone says corn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Lorgain Guest
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:15 PM

The Famine Plot has all the answers, by Tim Pat Coogan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:28 PM

I was posting TIC, bb, not meaning to question the thread name. Sorry to draw it a bit off course, but all interesting stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:11 PM

And some of that corn, by 1847, was being hoarded by profiteers in Ireland. There were not enough mills to grind it -- although "corn meal" had been sold and given away in Ireland as early as the 1830s.

Remember too that Germany, France, the Low Countries and England suffered from the potato blight. Unlike Ireland, however, these countries were not nearly as dependent upon potatoes as their primary article of diet. There was some suffering, but not nearly on the scale as in Ireland.

See The Graves Are Walking for more info.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:40 PM

It was Charles Trevelyan. He also said that the potato blight was a lucky act of providence!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Jim Martin
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:20 AM

The "Lumper" (so named because of its' lumpy appearance)was the variety of potato which caused the problem, being particularly susceptible to blight and with a regime of monoculture (have we learned nothing?) being in place, disaster was assured - but they didn't realise that at the time, of course!

http://www.celtictraveler.com/famine-potato.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:07 AM

Interesting stuff, bruce!
=========
DNA detectives

The researchers studied 11 historic samples from potato leaves that were collected about 150 years ago in Ireland, the United Kingdom, Europe and North America.

The scientists found these ancient samples, which were preserved at the Botanical State Collection Munich and the Kew Gardens in London, still had many intact pieces of DNA. In fact, the DNA quality was so good the researchers were able to sequence the entire genome of Phytophthora infestans and its host, the potato, within just a few weeks...

According to the study, Phytophthora infestans originated in Mexico's Toluca Valley. When Europeans and Americans first came to Mexico in the 16th century, the pathogen experienced increased genetic diversity, and in the early 1800s, the HERB-1 Phytophthora strain emerged and was brought out of Mexico, the researchers said.

By the summer of 1845, the HERB-1 strain had arrived at European ports, and the potato disease spread throughout Ireland and the United Kingdom, causing the Irish potato famine. In the 20th century, as new varieties of potatoes were introduced, the HERB-1 strain was eventually replaced by the US-1 Phytophthora strain, the researchers said.
=======
The potato blight may have been helped out by another factor - planting the crop too early. People didn't realize that the potato pieces will simply rot if put into ground that's too cold. The sky may be blue, the weather warm, but soil is much slower to heat up.

We had crazy weather this spring, and it was a relief to read in the paper that tomatoes should not be transplanted outside until the soil temp is at least 60 at a depth of 2-4 inches. We got out the instant-read thermometer (up till now used only for roast beef) and checked. Soil temp was 65, so the tomatoes could safely go outdoors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 May 13 - 11:06 PM

My dad spent some time in a German POW camp. The Germans gave the British and American officers corn meal, ground Indian corn, among their provisions. Before the Americans came, the British had used the cornmeal, which is very absorbent, to clean the floor. Americans taught them that the stuff was food. I can imagine what the Irish thought of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:24 AM

The potato blight may have been helped out by another factor - planting the crop too early.

Not quite sure what to make of that. To this day the only chance potato growers in the West of Ireland have to get any chance of a crop without blight (other than spraying the bejayses out of it) is to plant as early varieties as possible. I plant a bed of first earlies and hope I can get most out of the ground before the blight get at them.
There's the alternative of a few blight resistant varieties ofcourse, there are a few, but most people don't seem to like the taste of those.

If too early planting has the tubers rot, it's not the blight that causes the rot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:04 AM

Planting too early, racist anglos come up with a million "reasons"for famine. When I was young follies in vancouver used to say it was caused by the irish refusing to eat fish. The idea being that on an island there was fish everywhere. Rationalizations worthy of the Nazi paper der sturmer.
They still follow the nzai holocaust denial tactics of minimumizalizing the number. Once an irisman steps on a ship his death is not part of the famine. There are quarantine islands all over eastern Canada. With hundfed"so of thousands of irish grave. Those poor souls died of disease brought on by malnutrition and inhuman transport conditions. A quarter million irish(and some Scotts gaels) are hurried on grosse Isle alone, but they don't,t count. Like all gaels they were not human to the racist militaristic empire. The same empire, I might add, that terrorized iraqi civilians and tortured many people there.

New brunswick has thirty five thousand irish graves on the quarantine island in the mouth of the mirimicl river. The English settlers let them die. Brave acadiens roed over at night to free a few and nursed them back to health. Onfortunatelt the numbers were too big to make much difference in the death rate. There were less than seventy thousand acadiens, and at least one hundred and fifty thousand on quarantine islands in the maritimes(new brunswick, nova Scotia, and prince Edward island).

The cruelty and barbarism of the English has few equals in human history. And some Anglo folk song circles banners singing irish rebel songs. Anglo racism knows no bounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:29 AM

Olly, whatever the rights and wrongs of the UK's treatment of the Irish during and in relation to the famine (in which particular area I may be less pro-English than you expect) you have a lot of bottle if you want to come to my home and sing songs about killing me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Martin
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:39 AM

I make an organic treatment for blight making a tea using horsetail - here's a recipe:

http://www.gardenplansireland.com/forum/about1313.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:58 AM

I haven't found the nettle and comfrey tea mentioned very effective, haven't tried the horsetail. I do use the Burgundy mixture, again not 100% but it does seem to slow things down. But I admit saying that from a background of not bothering with potato growing at all for over ten years after loosing a few crops to blight and only having gone back to it on a small scale in the past few years.

The thing is, not a lot of things will grow very succesfully here (I do not like cabbage at all so won't grow that, pakl choi and some chinese cabbage aside). Two years ago I even lost all tomatos, courgette etc in the polytunnel to blight. And anything not affected by it is likely to be eaten by slugs. It's overall just more frustration than it's worth, it's great when you get a good year though (rare as they are).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 May 13 - 10:52 AM

Having studies several works on the Potato Famine and made several tri ps to Ireland and seen for myself both the records and the graveyards, I can only say that the policies of the British government would lead to international condemnation today.

Too few ships, refusal to use British naval vessels to ship grain, stinginess...meanness...on the part of the government and merchants, a view of religion that makes the Taliban look nice, and above all, an attitude of "well, they're only Irish" killed millions.

And this was done to a part of Great Britain! The Act of Union made it such. But then there is the example of the Highland Clearances and "To Hell or Connaught" as precedents.

It was not England's finest hour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 26 May 13 - 02:43 PM

Irish-American Famine Relief by Christine Kinealy


Throws some non politically? motivated light on how the rest of the world reacted to the famine and the plight of the Irish people affected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:37 PM

"And this was done to a part of Great Britain! The Act of Union made it such."

Ireland was never a part of Great Britain as such. It was part of the UK. The famine was pretty significant in part of Britain too though in the Scottish Highlands. The govt again reacted intiially far too slowly but this was down to their idealogy of laissez-faire (do nothing as the market will fix things)rather than wanting people to starve. When they were finally pushed into action they still baulked somewhat at giving things free preferring work schemes etc. Again their rigid ideology. Nothing more useless during a catastrophe than people in power who are convinced their way is correct despite all the evidence being to the contrary.

I read a lot of Scottish history volumes and the prevailing thought seems to be that the Highland famine didn't go into the apocalyptic scale of the Irish famine because despite it being during the Clearance phase the Highland landlords were still for the most part native and even if they were anglicised they still held some sense of responsibility towards their tenants. Likewise the Church of Scotland was the established native church. Organised charity often prevented it from being much worse than it could have been. On the other hand the ruling class in Ireland were the anglo-Irish rather than native and were more estranged plus of course the scale was simply more massive.

I think the Scottish famine of the 1690s (the ill years) which particularly hit the north-east Lowlands, was perhaps worse than the later potato blight in scotland. Some counties lost 30% of the population. People fled to the cities, fled overseas mostly to Ulster then perhaps across the ocean, or simply starved to death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 May 13 - 09:48 PM

UK or Great Britain -- it does nothing to absolve the leadership. Not in Ireland, not in Scotland, and not among those who suffered in England.

There is a time and place for laissez-faire, but a famine isn't among either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:15 AM

Sudden Oak Death has been an issue recently here in Northern California, destroying trees in our beautiful woodlands. Apparently, it's caused by Phytophthora ramorum, and it's related to the cause of the Irish potato blight, Phytophthora infestans. It kills our beautiful oak trees amazingly fast. It makes me reluctant to use oak firewood, because I might be contributing to the spread of this disease.

I have read that Irish potatoes before the blight, were particularly nutritious, close to being a "perfect food" - far more nutritious that the potatoes we have nowadays. Is that just hogwash, or is there truth to that? Are there potatoes nowadays that are closer to "perfect nutrition"?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:12 AM

"if you want to come to my home and sing songs about killing me."
I have little doubt that, had we a living, creative traditions up to the 1940s we would all be travelling around the world and singing songs about killing Germans, (particularly if we found a cosy beirkeller after we'd just beaten Bayern Munich) just as we sing songs about killing the French, and just about every other nation we have fought with down the centuries.
The famine was a tiny, if horrifically spectacular incident in Anglo-Irish relations and its aftermath still haunts Ireland. Songs about this relationship (there are few, if any Irish songs contemporary with the famine) are very much a continuing part of her history, which is still regularly re-visited via her songs about '98, '67, the evictions, the emigrations, the Land War, Easter Week, the War of Independence..... and long may that continue to be the case.
We visited this town throughout 'the troubles'; I remember one particularly moving occasion during the Willie Clancy Summer School around the time the hunger strikers were dying and the main street was bedecked with black flags.
We heard plenty of 'those' songs but we never encountered s minute's hostility from those Irish people who had travelled from all over the country to take part in the music making - if there was any hostility it was aimed at politicians, not the visiting Brits.
A rather odd incident sums it up for me.
A friend was visiting a town in the south of this county at the time England was playing a European football team in a final.
He went into a pub where the match was being shown on television; the locals, packed into the back room, were screaming themselves hoarse for the English side and were ecstatic when they won the game.
As the trophy was being presented a band struck up 'God Save the Queen" - two beer glasses sailed through the air simultaneously from different part of the room, right through the screen.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:19 AM

"UK or Great Britain -- it does nothing to absolve the leadership"

Never suggested it did. In fact I pointed out that they could be blamed for political dogma mixed in with incompetence. But the statement that Ireland was a part of Great Britain was just plain and simply incorrect. Some things can be debated and depend on a point of view but other things are just basic incorrect statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:00 AM

'I have read that Irish potatoes before the blight, were particularly nutritious, close to being a "perfect food" - far more nutritious that the potatoes we have nowadays. Is that just hogwash, or is there truth to that? '

THat Joe, is definitely hogwash of the first order. Recently a number of growers have put the potato that was popular around the famine, the Lumper, back on the market. It's generally accepted as an ugly, unpleasant tasting, poor quality tuber.

National Geographic article (google will throw up loads, there's been a lot of publicity surrounding this)


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Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 12:48 PM

In the last couple of posts to the just closed Skibbereen thread, two people state that Britain was culpable as if there was no dispute.
For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed.

Renowned historian Dr. Christine Kenealy stated, quoting others, that such historians were "dominant" and had been since 1930.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 02:42 PM

Piss of, Keith - it is incontravertable that "God sent the blight, but Britain sent the famine" and this has been proven and documented time and time again, despite what morons like yourself and/or your cadre of tame WWI apologist-type "historians" might blather on about.

Fur Jesus' and all our sakes, don't pollute another thread with your idiotic bullshit.

And if you're talking about Christine Kinealy - none of whose books I am sure you have ever read - you are prostituting and misrepresenting her theses regarding Britain's involvement & responsibility.

So fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 04:00 PM

Can I just make clear why Keith has re-opened this thread
He has just managed to get the song thread 'Skibbereen' closed and now wishes to re-trawl over this subject once more.
I have little oubt that this will meet the same fate.
Irish famine timeline -it's all here
Jim Carroll

http://www.irishhistorian.com/IrishFamineTimeline.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 02:23 AM

My short post, repeated here, did not get the thread closed.
It was your hysterical and wildly abusive reply.

I have stated the truth.
There is debate and most historians now do not find Britain culpable.
You know that to be true, and you know that Kenealy confirmed it because it was all laid out in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 02:27 AM

The threads have been messed up and mixed up.
This one.
thread.cfm?threadid=151520&messages=452#3555978


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 03:57 AM

This is intolerable
You have reopened this thread in defiance of the administrator's decision to to close the topic - grounds for being discipled at the very least on a discussion forum.
It is a subject on which you have admitted you have no personal knowledge whatever - you have said you have never read a book on the subject; nobody on the last thread baked your arguments and you have no support your support here.
You are now mounting a one-man campaign on something to which you have admitted to being totally ignorant on
You appear now to be taking on the administrators of this thread,
What the **** are you on?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:02 AM

The moderators moved my post to this thread, reopening it.
What I said about historians and Kinealy is an easily verifiable fact.
Does anyone deny it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:39 AM

You have linked us back to a thread in which Kinealy's statements described exactly the opposite and you admitted you could not understand why she came to such conclusions.
I have no intentions of re-opening a subject with you that you have admitted you have no personal knowledge on whatever.
I'll do you a deal.
You opened your attack on the Skibbereen thread in response to a note I have done for song we are putting up as part of our collection on our County Library website.
It is based around a statement made by the man responsible for distributing famine relief.
Ye was an appointee of the British Government so it can be safely assumed that it reflects the official view of that Government, otherwise they would never have left him in charge of such a vital task.
The statement says plainly that the Irish famine sufferers were evil people being punished by God for their evil ways and the famine was His way of controlling them.
Show me where this was not the prevailing view at the time and I will withdraw the note and replace it with one based on your evidence - I will not accept the usual carefully selected cut-'n-pastes that you substitute for knowledge - real evidence only.
Now - to Mr Trevelyan:
Skibbereen –(Roud 2312) Pat MacNamara
See also, Skibbereen – Tom Lenihan OK
The first known appearance of this song was in a 19th-century publication, The Irish Singer's Own Book (Noonan, Boston, 1880), where the song was attributed to Patrick Carpenter, a poet and native of Skibbereen. It was published in 1915 by Herbert Hughes who wrote that it had been collected in County Tyrone, and that it was a traditional song
Ireland's Great Famine remains one of history's worst cases of a natural disaster mismanaged; locked warehouses stuffed with supplies, enough food to feed the population being shipped out of Ireland by the boatload, and a man in charge of famine relief who believed the famine to be God's punishment on the Irish
In a letter to Thomas Spring-Rice, Lord Mounteagle, Sir Charles Trevelyan described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgment of God"   
From the 'Cork Examiner' of March 19th, 1847, reporting on a court case in which a man had been charged with stealing food.   
In his defense he said that he was driven to it by what had happened to his wife.   
The Court was told:

"The starving woman lay in her hovel next to her dead three-year old son, waiting for her husband to return from begging food.   When night fell and his failure to return led her to imagine him dead in a ditch, she lay there in the faint fire's dying embers, caressing with her eyes her dead son's face and tiny fists.   With death searching her, and now with her own fists clenched, she made one last effort to stay alive. Crawling as far away from her son's face as she could, as if to preserve his personality, or at least her memory of it, she came to his bare feet and proceeded to eat them."

Illustration inserted here
Skibbereen 1847 by Cork artist James
Mahony (1810–1879), commissioned by
Illustrated London News 1847.

The legacy of the famine remains a part of the Irish psyche, particularly in its long and unbroken history of emigration.
It can also be found in folk-memory – my mother said her mother always claimed it was a "mortal sin not to eat the whole potato". This was echoed by Kerry Traveller Mikeen McCarthy, who said he once met an old woman who had lived during the famine and told him exactly the same thing.
The last generation had it in their lore; we were told several times of the "Hungry Grass", patches of land supposedly containing unmarked famine graves; it was said that anybody who walks over it is stricken by hunger pains.
One such piece of ground is said to be not far from The Hand Cross on the slopes of Mount Callan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:44 AM

Kinealy is a historian who does support the old Nationalist view and is not a revisionist.

However she stated that revisionist historians are now "dominant" and have been for over eighty years.
She has also said that she thinks the balance might change in the future.

So, does anyone deny that there is historical debate, and right now most historians do not find that Britain can be held culpable?

Jim?
Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:58 AM

You have my offer - take it or leave it, simple as that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 05:09 AM

"Jim? Greg?"
font color=red>AND PLEASE STOP ADDRESSING JUST TWO PEOPLE - THIS HAS BEEN A ONE-MAN CAMPAIGN ON YOUR PART TO PROVE THE BRITISH EMPIRE DIDN'T DO IT - AGAIN - YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT ON EITHER THREAD
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 06:17 AM

Jim, I made no "attack."
I want no argument.

I did state that Britain's culpability is disputed by historians, a verifiable fact.
Does anyone deny that fact?

I am also repeating Kinealy's statements that those who blame Britain are the minority, and have been for over eighty years.
Does anyone deny that?

That is all I have to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 06:40 AM

Reading a lone sympathetic to your own outlook historian who has to rubbish history in order to get their moment of fame...

Not for the first time eh Keith?

A bit like going to a church and coming out smug and sanctimonious because someone who is paid to "forgive" absolves you of your less tasteful traits.

On the subject of the Irish famine, this was also the time when economics was being seen as a science in a way not seen before. Whilst Trevallian and his cohorts had political reasons for their callous attitude, they also were of the mind that Adam Smith was right and to interfere in trade was ultimately folly.

I would say that in the past, people oppressed others for their own ends. The snag is, the past is ever present, as gays, ethnic minorities, religions and lack of religions find out each and every day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 06:49 AM

I did state that Britain's culpability is disputed by historians, a verifiable fact.
Does anyone deny that fact?

I am also repeating Kinealy's statements that those who blame Britain are the minority, and have been for over eighty years.
Does anyone deny that fact?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM

"YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT"

Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.

Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.
Massachusetts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM

"That is all I have to say."
You have the Government's attitude to the famine in its representative Trevelyan's statement.
""effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgment of God""
That is the nearest we have to an official government statement - not from "historians" a century and a half later
YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO COMPLETELY IGNORE IT
You have been given the chronological list of the Great Irish Famine containing further statements by Trevelyan stating that the British economy was more important than feeding the Irish people (Government official policy)
YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE IT – NOT EVEN AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
You continue to hold Christine Kinealy up as your star witness even though you have said that you "don't understand" her description of the British policy towards Ireland as "inhuman and callous"
You had me worried for a moment – I really did begin to wonder whether somebody who confesses to never having read a book on the subject really does know more than every single contributor to this forum, including those of us whose understanding of it is based on the fact that many of our ancestors (not only mine) fled from Ireland directly because of England's genocidal policy – whew what a relief!!
Just in cases you ever decide to read something - 'yr 'tis again
http://www.irishhistorian.com/IrishFamineTimeline.html

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 08:42 AM

Britain's culpability is disputed by historians, a verifiable fact.
Do you deny that FACT Jim?

Kinealy stated that those who blame Britain are the minority, and have been for over eighty years.
Do you deny that FACT Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 08:42 AM

From what I have read the blight was the icing on the cake. A huge amount of the land and houses were owned by British businessmen and some of higher rank. Rents were often, if not generally paid in potatoes and turnips. In many instances these were brought directly to the docks where they were weighed and then credit was issued by the ship owners who, in turn, paid the landlords from the profits gained when the produce was sold to British markets. In some places the landlords became so greedy that they created what I would call reverse quotas. A family was allowed to retain only a specified amount of potatoes. As few as two per day were allotted per adult and per pig, if pigs were kept. Children were allotted one potato per day. All else was considered as rent.

Things were clearly already bad enough and then the blight struck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 09:09 AM

I closed the thread. You TWO weren't talking about the song, and I didn't want another installment of the "Keith & Jim sbow to take over a good music thread. I moved it below so you can carry on your public relationship where it's easier for your unwilling audience to ignore you.

But seriously guys -- it's not one of you. It's BOTH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 09:12 AM

I have nothing else to say.
I just thought it dishonest to state Britain's culpability as an undisputed fact, knowing that is not the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 10:18 AM

"I just thought it dishonest to state Britain's culpability as an undisputed fact, knowing that is not the case."
Now you are being maliciously dishonest - you have deliberately refused to respond to the actual statements of Britain's representative in Ireland at the time - instead you have manufactured claims by selected "historians" writing a century and a half later to prove (sic) "Britain never dunnit Guv" (again)
I have extracted every single contemporary account of Trevalyan's policy on Ireland from the Time-Line you refuse to acknowledge.
He was Britain's representative and was carrying out their policy.
You will ignore this as you have ignored every other fact put before you - hopefully, you will bow slink away in shame - but I doubt it
Jim Carroll


1846
Charles Trevelyan, Permanent Secretary at the Treasury, told the Relief Commissioners that 'the landlords and other ratepayers are the parties who are both legally and morally answerable for affording due relief to the destitute poor'.
On the 20th, the chairman of the Relief Commission, Edward Lucas, said he believed that current and contemplated measures could not 'provide an effectual remedy'. 1400 out of 2049 electoral divisions in Ireland had reported the appearance of the blight.
Medical officers recorded a rise in cases of influenza, jaundice, and small pox, but particularly of diarrhoea and dysentery, caused by eating rotten potatoes.
Charles Trevelyan commented that 'indirect permanent advantages will accrue to Ireland from the scarcity, and the measures taken for its relief[...] Besides, the greatest improvement of all that could take place in Ireland would be to teach the people to depend upon themselves for developing the resources of the country, instead of having recourse to the assistance of the government on every occasion'.
The first shipment of Indian corn arrived in Ireland. It was unloaded in Cork where it was to be ground ready for consumption. Indian corn was difficult to prepare and not known in Ireland. It was bulky and filling. Sir Randolph Routh of the Relief Commission believed it kept off fever, but people referred to it as 'Peel's brimstone'. The decision to order something so obscure and unpalatable had been taken deliberately by the government, calculated not to interfere with private trade.
On the 20th, Trevelyan informed Routh that government plans should be 'promulgated'.
On the 3rd, a report by the Treasury condemned the payment of people on public works regardless of their results. It recommended that food should be given instead of wages, and if money wages were paid, they should only be sufficient to prevent starvation. This report had been written personally by Trevelyan and had not been reviewed before publication.
On the 21st, a Treasury Minute announced that all public measures for combatting the famine would be brought to a close. Trevelyan believed that relief operations should be ended despite the reappearance of the blight 'or you run the risk of paralysing all private enterprise and having this country on you for an indefinite number of years'
Depots re-opened on the 28th. Trevelyan insisted that grain should be sold at market prices, or 'the whole country will come upon us'.
Routh accused the Treasury of not having made enough effort to obtain food. Trevelyan maintained that food shortages were general in the United Kingdom, and supplies had to be controlled. 'The whole world was ransacked for supplies.' He also said that 'the ordinary mercantile interests of even the greatest trading nation in the world is unequal to such a novel emergency'.

1847
The British Relief Association was established in London by a group of English businessmen. Their representative Count Strzelecki travelled to Ireland.
Queen Victoria wrote the 'Queen's Letter', an appeal for money to relieve distress. The Queen, Trevelyan and Thackeray were among those who contributed. A total of £171, 533 was raised.
On the 25th, government officer Captain Pole remarked that 'outside Dublin, the country is uncivilised'.
The Times described the Irish as 'a people born and bred from time immemorial, in inveterate indolence, improvidence, disorder, and consequent destitution'. It accused them of 'astounding apathy [...] to the most horrible scenes under their eyes'. Punch magazine was also carrying articles and caricatures of this type. This media pressure, fed by Trevelyan and Charles Wood, had an impact on British public opinion.
A separate Poor Law Commission was set up in Ireland. The Treasury, e.g. Trevelyan, was to be more prominent in administering poor relief.
The Poor Law was also amended during 1847 to increase the powers of guardians to assist the poor, particularly smallholders, to emigrate. If a person who occupied land valued at less than £5 turned it over to their landlord, the landlord was obliged to pay two thirds of their emigration costs, and the guardians would pay the rest. The emigrant no longer had to be a workhouse inmate. However, it was not until the 1849 Mansell Act that guardians would be allowed to borrow the cost of emigration from the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners. As a result, Poor Law emigration rose sharply, but always made up a small proportion of all emigrants.
Soup kitchens were closed in 55 unions on the 15th, mainly in the east and the midlands. The rest were scheduled to be closed on the 29th. This was later adjusted so that the 'impotent' sick and poor could receive relief until the 30th of September. Twenty-two unions were listed as 'distressed', meaning that they would require external assistance.
Trevelyan himself wrote to the Times that financial assistance to Ireland should be limited, because 'the change from an idle, barbarous isolated potato cultivation, to corn cultivation, which frees industry, and binds together employer and employee in mutually beneficial relations... requires capital and a new class of men'.
A separate Poor Law Commission was set up in Ireland. The Treasury, e.g. Trevelyan, was to be more prominent in administering poor relief.
The Poor Law was also amended during 1847 to increase the powers of guardians to assist the poor, particularly smallholders, to emigrate. If a person who occupied land valued at less than £5 turned it over to their landlord, the landlord was obliged to pay two thirds of their emigration costs, and the guardians would pay the rest. The emigrant no longer had to be a workhouse inmate. However, it was not until the 1849 Mansell Act that guardians would be allowed to borrow the cost of emigration from the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners. As a result, Poor Law emigration rose sharply, but always made up a small proportion of all emigrants.
Soup kitchens were closed in 55 unions on the 15th, mainly in the east and the midlands. The rest were scheduled to be closed on the 29th. This was later adjusted so that the 'impotent' sick and poor could receive relief until the 30th of September. Twenty-two unions were listed as 'distressed', meaning that they would require external assistance.
Trevelyan himself wrote to the Times that financial assistance to Ireland should be limited, because 'the change from an idle, barbarous isolated potato cultivation, to corn cultivation, which frees industry, and binds together employer and employee in mutually beneficial relations... requires capital and a new class of men'.

!848
On the 29th, Trevelyan intervened in a scheme to send female Irish orphans aged between 14 and 18 to Australia. He recommended that Protestant rather than Catholic girls should be sent because of their better 'moral education'. Only girls trained in needlework and washing should be sent, which effectively ruled out any from the poverty-struck western unions. The guardians were also supposed to provide emigrants with an outfit.
On the 13th, Trevelyan asserted that assistance should be given only if absolutely essential, because otherwise 'the demands upon us would become infinite'. He criticised the Poor Law Unions for the way they had handled the resources available to them.
Trevelyan wrote to Twistleton that he wanted small farmers to emigrate. 'If small farmers go, and their landlords are reduced to selling portions of their estates to persons who will invest capital, we shall at last arrive at something like a satisfactory settlement of the country.' Russell also commented that 'it is better that some should sink, than that they should drag others down to sink with them'.
On the 24th, Russell said to Clarendon that 'the great difficulty concerning Ireland this year is one that does not spring from Trevelyan and Charles Wood but lies deep in the breasts of the British people. It is this - we have granted, lent, subscribed, worked, visited, clothed the Irish; millions of pounds worth of money, years of debate, etc. etc. - the only return is calumny and rebellion - let us not grant, clothe etc. etc. any more and see what they will do... Now, without borrowing and lending we could have no great plan for Ireland - and much as I wish it, I have got to see that it is impracticable'.
On the 7th, the Commissioners, having tried to get more money from the Treasury, said they felt 'absolved of any responsibility'. Trevelyan was unsympathetic, but admitted that the government was obliged to provide a minimal form of relief, or 'the deaths' would be 'an eternal blot on the nation'. He called paupers 'prodigal sons' who should not be given 'the fatted calf' but only 'the workhouse and one pound of meal per day'.
On the 2nd, the Poor Law Commissioners appealed to Trevelyan to apply some of the government's grant to defray the expense of treating cholera. The Treasury said this could be done 'with caution'. It was not long before the Treasury was accusing the Poor Law Commissioners of being too liberal with the money.
Trevelyan suggested that all children should be put out of workhouses to make room for able-bodied men. Twistleton refused to do this. The number of people receiving relief in Irish workhouses had reached its peak at 227,329 a day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM

I am not going to argue history with you Jim.
It is safe to assume that historians are aware of all that and take it into account with all the other evidence available to them.

When they have done that, most of them find that Britain can not be blamed.
You have had many opportunities now to deny that fact, but you can't.
Can you Jim?
Greg?
Musket?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 10:35 AM

Musket has said about a different era, "those historians should know better."
Like he does.
And Jim and Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 10:44 AM

2I am not going to argue history with you Jim."
Whewre have you ever -
You are not arguing with me or anybody - you have been given statements on the British policy towards the Famine - you choose to ignore them - why on earth should it be any different from any other of your claims - leopards, spots and all that
"And Jim and Greg."
and everybody else you have ever argued with on this forum - stop distorting the views of contributors to this discussion - you little liar you!!
Byee
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 11:11 AM

"A huge amount of the land and houses were owned by British businessmen and some of higher rank. Rents were often, if not generally paid in potatoes and turnips. In many instances these were brought directly to the docks where they were weighed and then credit was issued by the ship owners who, in turn, paid the landlords from the profits gained when the produce was sold to British markets. In some places the landlords became so greedy that they created what I would call reverse quotas. A family was allowed to retain only a specified amount of potatoes. As few as two per day were allotted per adult and per pig, if pigs were kept. Children were allotted one potato per day. All else was considered as rent."

Love to know where this fairy tale came from. It certainly raises some interesting questions if it were true, so I presume Allan C would know the answers to them.

Ownership of the land. If the major part of the land was owned by "British Businessmen" how was it transferred to Irish ownership and when? The nobility and landed gentry of the "ascendancy" were for the most part "Anglo-Irish" (Not British Businessmen). To simplify matters they leased land to agents who then rented out the land to maximise the agent's profit.

Rents were not paid in potatoes and turnips, for a small parcel of land which the tenant used to cultivate to feed his family, the rent was paid by the tenant working on the land owners land. Now if what you said was true how did the the poor impoverished tenant get his crops down to the docks to be weighed? Must have taken one hell of a long time to load a cargo under this totally ridiculous system don't you think, no shipping company would stand for it logically if you think about it, it would cost them a fortune in time and lost cargoes.

No mention of the real culprits - The Gombeen Men - look them up, you probably won't because they weren't English. They didn't exist in Scotland so in the highlands and western isles right the way through the famine the men fished to suppliment the diet. In Ireland particularly on the west coast the Gombeen Men forced the fishermen to sell their gear and boats to pay their extortionate interest.

Suggest you read Cecile Woodham-Smith's book "The Great Hunger", she's hard enough on the British Government but fairly so and does give credit where and when it is due. She's very scathing in her coverage of the supposed "help" that was received from America and the treatment of Irish immigrants on landing in America (Modern Day St.Patrick's Day derives from it - a PR exercise, a street party thrown to make the Irish more popular among the other immigrant communities in American cities)

The reason most Irish emigrated to the New World via Canada was because they sailed for free. To board a ship bound directly for the USA you had to prove yourself to be of good character and health and be financially sound to the tune of £10, you were then subject to quarantine on arrival. If the ship carried any sick onboard it was held off the coast until all was clear, sometimes that took weeks. Most Irish entered the USA via Chicago from Canada having travelled across the Great Lakes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 11:43 AM

You wanna ignore the contemporary accounts too Terrytoon -now there's a surprise!!!
That was attributed directly to Trevelyan's statement in 1848 go get someone to read you a book (though you might start with getting them to read you the messages posted on this thread
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 12:20 PM

"You wanna ignore" historians' conclusions on contemporary accounts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 12:50 PM

""You wanna ignore" historians' conclusions on contemporary accounts?"
Only the ones you have deliberately misquoted
You wanna go and read something and put the contemporary statements right - no - I thought not.
Christine Kinealy says that the policy towards Famine victims was inhuman - maybe you can start be putting her right!
Tosser!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 03:18 PM

Christine Kinealy.
"Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 03:34 PM

"Christine Kinealy."
Lastworditis again Keith - so be it
ow will you feck off?
Jim Carroll

"Dr. Christine Kinealy, in responding to the words of the Ambassador, introduced her book as follows: -
"In the autumn of 1846, the potato crop failed for the second consecutive year in Ireland. Daniel O'Connell wrote to the British government and warned them that unless they intervened quickly to provide relief, there would be a 'death-dealing famine' in the country. Sadly, O'Connell's prediction proved to be true.
The Great Irish Famine was a turning point in the development of modern Ireland. In the space of six years, Ireland lost 25 per cent of her population through death and disease. This statistic alone marked the Irish Famine as one of the greatest human tragedies in modern European history.
Yet it is not only the number of people who died which makes the Famine such a tragedy. It is also the way in which they lost their lives. Death from famine or famine-related diseases is slow, painful and obscene.
Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain.
This year marked the 150th anniversary of 'Black '47' – the single year when disease, suffering and mortality were at their highest. But the Famine did not end in 1847. In 1849, the level of mortality was almost as great as it had been in 1847.
Today – even though famine still exists in the world – it is hard to imagine the suffering, the sense of loss and the trauma of Irish people during those years. The recollections of a survivor of the Famine years convey some of this loss:"


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM

And just in case that wasn't enough to shut you up;
You were given this in the early years of the last discussion.
You've borrowed selectively from it.
When it was quoted at you later you dsaid you didn't understand how she could have said such a thing.
Despite it having been pointed out to you, you have deliberately misinterpreted the meaning of the word 'revisionism' for your own purposes.
Jim Carroll

Ms Kinealy - the floor is all yours - da-rah!
"Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain."

BEYOND REVISIONISM: reassessing the Great Irish Famine
Published in 18th-19th Century Social Perspectives, 18th–19th - Century History, Features, Issue 4 (Winter 1995),The Famine, Volume 3
'The day after the Ejectment', Illustrated London News, 16 December 1848.
1995 marks the 150th anniversary of the first appearance of a new and deadly strain of potato blight in Ireland; a blight that reappeared in varying degrees over the next six years. As a consequence of the resultant food shortage and the more general disruption to economic life, by 1852 at least one million Irish people had died and a further one million had emigrated from Ireland. Thus, in the space of six years, Ireland lost twenty-five per cent of her population. The demographic decline continued and by 1901, the population of Ireland had fallen to four million. This population decline made Ireland unique within Europe as all other European countries experienced rapid population growth during the nineteenth century. Using the demographic criterion alone, the Famine was a human tragedy of immense proportions and one which was clearly a defining moment in the course of modern Irish history.

Self-censorship
So far, the anniversary of the appearance of the potato blight and subsequent Famine has attracted a lot of public and media attention in Ireland and, to a lesser extent, in Britain, America, Australia and Europe. The coincidence of the Northern Ireland peace process has increased international interest in Irish affairs, and a number of articles, TV and radio reports have seen the two events as being inextricably linked. A number of Irish academics have even stated that the current political climate has facilitated a new freedom in the discussion of past events. An underlying question is whether historians, social scientists, ethnographers, and even some government ministers and journalists, have allowed contemporary concerns to restrict historical debate. If this is the case, what are the implications of this self-censorship on interpretations and reinterpretations of the Irish Famine?

Nationalist paradigm
To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994). In Protestant schools in Northern Ireland, Irish history was rarely part of the curriculum (see Peter Collins, 'History teaching in Northern Ireland' in HI Spring 1995). Accordingly, in many Irish schools, a heroic but simplistic view of Irish history emerged, a morality story replete with heroes and villains. This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. In the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, and by implication, although less centrally, loyalist myths. Thus, at the launch of the influential Irish Historical Studies journal in 1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms either north or south of the border.

Revisionism
In the 1960s, the study of history in many European countries was transformed as historians increasingly began to employ the methodologies of other disciplines and to develop new theoretical approaches. In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history. This approach became known as 'revisionism'. As the IRA campaign intensified, revisionism gained a new prominence, in the battle for Irish hearts and minds, and challenging nationalist mythology became an important ideological preoccupation of a new generation of historians. A number of leading academics justified this construction on the grounds that IRA violence was linked directly with nationalist myths, although empirical evidence has been less forthcoming.
But did this new representation of Irish history really represent a new reality about Ireland's past, particularly in relation to the Famine? The revisionist approach contained a number of inherent contradictions and limitations. From its origins, although revisionist history claimed to be value-free and objective, it had its own agenda or set of values, which varied over time and
in degrees of intensity. A key objective of Irish revisionism was to exorcise the ghost of nationalism from historical discourse and to replace it with historical narratives that persistently played down the separateness and the trauma, and derided the heroes and villains of Irish history. However, this declared determination of revisionism to destroy the 'myths and untruths' of populist historical consciousness has also limited the ability of revisionists to construct an alternative view of Irish history. Also, as Seamus Deane, the literary critic and poet has observed, in Ireland, there exists 'the felt need for mythologies, heroic lineages and dreams of continuity'. Such myths and dreams need to be explained and deconstructed, not denied, destroyed or omitted, to suit a present
convenience.

Symbiotic relationship with nationalism
From the outset revisionism has depended for its existence on a symbiotic relationship with nationalism. Overall, this has limited the terms of reference of Irish history, and, as a consequence, Irish historiography– particularly Famine historiography– has been polarised within the confines of a concentric and narrow historical discourse. A false–but emotionally powerful–dichotomy has been created between traditional, reactionary nationalism and secular, modern revisionism. Irish historiography has, therefore, been constrained rather than extended as a result of revisionism.
How has Irish revisionism presented or represented historical narratives on the Famine? This has been achieved in a number of ways, but predominantly by rejecting popular perceptions, by deriding traditional accounts, and by destroying selectively the myths of the Famine years. A number of key issues relating to the Famine, however, have been particularly subjected to revisionist re-presentation.

Impact minimised and marginalised
Firstly, in revisionist interpretations the impact of the Famine on the development of modern Ireland has been minimised and marginalised. This is most apparent in the area of demography, particularly in revisionist accounts of excess mortality. In the influential but flawed book edited by Edwards and Williams and first published in 1956, both the editors and the contributors chose to avoid the unpalatable question of excess mortality, admitting only that 'many, many people died' (see James S. Donnelly, Jr., 'The Great Famine: its interpreters, old and new' in HI Autumn 1993). Other accounts have argued that the Famine merely accelerated demographic trends already under way before 1845.
How many people did die during the Famine? Although precise mortality figures are not available, estimates based on contemporary government returns and statistical analyses undertaken by econometric historians have computed excess mortality to have been at least one million people. This figure also coincides with accounts provided by contemporary government officials, including both the Irish constabulary and census commissioners. What is significant about this area of debate is the determination of revisionist historians to understate the impact, in particular the degree of mortality, resulting from the Famine. The death-toll resulting from the Irish Famine makes it unique in modern European and, indeed, world history. Other national famines since 1800 (e.g. Somalia in the 1990s or Ethiopia in the 1980s) have, in comparison, been far less demographically lethal than the Great Famine in Ireland.

Inevitable?
Secondly, there has been a tendency by revisionist historians to view the Famine and the consequent mortality as inevitable, the food shortage representing a long overdue Malthusian subsistence crisis. Furthermore, according to this interpretation, economic backwardness, over-population and administrative inefficiency, made Ireland unable to respond effectively to the sustained crisis of the Famine. But how backward was pre-Famine Ireland?
On the eve of the Famine, Ireland had one of the tallest, sturdiest, best fed and most fertile populations in Europe. The ubiquitous, and highly nutritious potato, was largely responsible for this. But Irish agriculture was not monolithic. By the 1840s, apart from growing sufficient potatoes to feed over five million people, and large numbers of farm animals and fowl, Ireland was also growing large quantities of grain, and by the 1840s was exporting sufficient grain to Britain to feed approximately two million people. Population density was highest in the north-east of Ireland which was also the most industrially advanced part of the country. Furthermore, Ireland at the time of the Famine had a highly developed administrative infra-structure including, since 1838, a national system of poor relief.
Issue of culpability avoided
Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway.
The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable. In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly. But the soup kitchens were only ever intended to be a short-term measure, and after the government closed them in the autumn of 1847, mortality again rose sharply. This brief episode, however, in which free food was provided on a nation-wide basis, demonstrated that the administrative capability to provide relief existed. Unfortunately for the poor of Ireland, the political and ideological will to continue the scheme did not exist (see Peter Gray, 'The triumph of dogma: ideology and Famine relief' in HI Summer 1995).
The financial commitment to alleviate Irish suffering was also inadequate. In the course of the Famine, (over a seven year period) the British government spent approximately £9.5 million on various relief schemes. The greatest portion (over £4.5 million) was expended on the ill-conceived public works schemes in the winter of 1846-7 which coincided with the period of highest Famine mortality, as a result of weak and hungry people being forced to undertake hard, physical labour as a 'test' of destitution. Furthermore, much of the money provided for relief was given as a loan to the Irish administration, which was both interest and principal bearing and had to be paid back immediately. Overall, the contribution of the British government over seven years, represented only about 0.2 per cent of the British GNP. Less than ten years later, in the course of the Crimean war (over a three year period), the British government spent £69 million on military expenditure.

Collective guilt?
Fourthly, and as an extension of the above, suffering, emotion and the sense of catastrophe, have been removed from revisionist interpretations of the Famine with clinical precision. The obscenity and degradation of starvation and Famine have been marginalised. Popular books on the Famine, notably those by Cecil Woodham-Smith and Robert Kee, which have placed suffering at the heart of the Famine, have been derided or dismissed by many within the academic establishment, although not, it has to be said, by the general reading public. The Great Hunger by Woodham Smith has sold almost sixty thousand hard back copies, making it the best-selling Irish history book of all time. Irish academics, with the honourable exception of Cormac Ó Gráda, have been less enthusiastic. Roy Foster, an influential revisionist, in an article optimistically entitled 'We are all revisionists now', pejoratively described Woodham Smith as 'a zealous convert', whilst, in 1964, a question in an undergraduate history examination paper in University College Dublin stated 'The Great Hunger is a great novel. Discuss'.
A more invidious variation of this theme is that the population of Ireland today is descended from the survivors—sometimes even described as the 'winners'—of the Famine period, thus implying a collective guilt amongst Irish people. Moreover, it has been suggested, that because a number of interest groups may have benefited from the economic dislocation of the Famine years, it is unfair to blame any other group for responding inadequately to the Famine. Survival and success, however, do not negate the suffering and starvation—either directly or indirectly—of the vast majority of the population.
No practical impediment to government intervention
Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense. Throughout the eighteenth century, and in 1817, 1822 and indeed, in 1845, the Irish and British governments imported food for resale in Ireland. In the subsistence crisis of 1782, an embargo was placed on the export of grain from Ireland, despite the opposition of Irish grain merchants. Furthermore, in the subsistence crisis of 1845 to 1847, which occurred throughout Europe, governments throughout the continent responded by temporarily closing their ports to exports (Portugal, Turkey, Russia, amongst others). This was, in fact, a traditional response to Famine conditions. Also, as the Corn Law crisis proved, there was no practical or ideological impediment to government intervention in the market place when it suited the purposes of the government.

Removed from centre stage
Sixthly, the Famine has been removed from the centre stage of nineteenth century Irish history. Instead, continuity is emphasised and it is argued that trends such as the decline of the Irish language, the change to pasture farming, and the demographic decline, would have occurred without the Famine, which was merely an accelerator in these processes. These views have resulted in curious assertions. For example, Raymond Crotty has argued that 1815 was far more important in the economic development of modern Ireland than the Famine years. Econometric historians such as O'Rourke, Ó Gráda and Mokyr have exposed the absurdity of this assertion by combining statistical interpretation with common sense.

Ideological minefield
Finally, revisionism has created an ideological minefield in Irish history, in which those historians who attempted to write traditional Irish history, based on a recognition that reality involves conflict as well as consensus, and cataclysm as well as continuity, were regarded as promoters of a backward nationalist ideology. In regard to the Famine, interpretations which hinted at the issue of culpability of the British government were pigeon-holed as being apologists and perpetrators of the nationalist struggle. Perhaps this accounts for the dearth of serious scholarly research on the Famine, most notably by historians within Ireland. Interestingly, the sesquicentenary commemoration has created a new interest and appears to be creating a new generation of what are becoming known in Ireland as 'faminists'.
For many decades, the tragedy and significance of the Famine have been minimised, sanitised and marginalised by leading revisionist historians (and their supporters in the media). A declared purpose of Irish revisionism has been to 'demythologise' all Irish history, but in relation to the Famine, its target has been almost exclusively Irish nationalist history, and occasionally a mere caricature of it. Furthermore, revisionism has replaced nationalist historiography with a new orthodoxy based, at times, on equally facile myths and shibboleths. The process of challenging and revising should be an integral part of all historical writing. Irish revisionism, however, has stifled rather than stimulated historical debate on the Famine.
Although revisionism claims to be objective and value-free (a philosophical impossibility), in reality it has had a covert political agenda. As republican violence intensified, so did the determination of revisionists historians to destroy nationalist interpretations of Irish history. This has sometimes resulted in an equally unbalanced view emerging which, in the case of the Famine, has thrown the starving baby out with the purified bath-water.

Conclusion
Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s. However, as a new generation of historians emerges and more research is undertaken, it is unlikely that this domination will continue. This is not to say that revisionism in its various guises will disappear. As the American economist J.K. Galbraith has observed:
Faced with a choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everybody gets busy on the proof.
Christine Kinealy is a Fellow of the University of Liverpool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:17 PM

Round and round it goes and where it stops no one knows.

ZZZZZZZZZZ


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:36 PM

The more of this I read, the more I think we've got a pair of compulsives who aren't capable of stopping. I wish they'd infested some site other than Mudcat, though. Oh, well--what can ya do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:51 PM

Throw potatoes at them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 05:20 PM

principle cause of the famine was mono-culture.

some large (say 80%) of potatoes were one type. The fungus spread because it had a big target. It was also susceptible to light - it grew faster in the light. Farmers covered the potatoes to slow (or prevent as they thought) the blight.

History repeats itself, it has to nobody is listening.

viz I give you Microsoft Windows and Cavendish bananas

both are subject to viruses (or fungii in the case of bananas) which spread easily due to mono-culture. Bananas are a special case as they effectively only propagate vegitatively, with human intervention. They don't generate seeds (or so rarely as to be effectively sterile). Making all bananas clones, how easy is that as a target?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:28 PM

Fascinating, actually, the thread subject itself. Love biology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 03:16 AM

"Oh, well--what can ya do?"
Maybe take some interest in human rights abuses and learn from them?
Ah wll , what can ya do?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 03:58 AM

There were active contributions from five Mudcat members just yesterday on this thread.
The number of BS threads has just dwindled into single figures.
Why are people so negative about a live and interesting debate?

Jim I know Dr Kinealy is of the old Nationalist school and not a revisionist.
I said that yesterday, 12 Mar 14 - 04:44 AM .

She acknowledges that the revisionist view is now "dominant" and has been since before any of us were born.

That is why I say you are wrong to put forward one version as an undisputed fact.
It IS disputed and you know it because I have been telling you for hundreds of posts.

Others will have to ask Jim why he needed telling so many times something that is an obvious fact and that he refuses to deny anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:34 AM

Keith
Last word on this
You have been advocating Christine Kinealy as your star historian and have distorted her view to suggest they support your own
Her statement above is diametrically opposite to everything you have been arguing
You have refused to respond to every singly salient point of how the Famine was handled - you have refused to acknowledge that the government appointee openly stated that the famine was God's punishment of the Irish and that it was a way of 'culling' them - coming from a man in his position, that can only be construed as Government policy, in which case, The Famine was used as an exercise in ethnic cleansing.
Christine Kinealy (your star witness) says exactly what needed to be said on the famine.
You re-opened this thread to continue an argument you had already been humiliated on - in doing so you have humiliated yourself further.
You will now attempt to salvage something from the ashes of your own making - you will do so on your own
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:42 AM

You are being dishonest Jim.
I KNOW KINEALY IS A NATIONALIST HISTORIAN!!!

All I am saying is that blame is disputed, and it is dishonest to deny that dispute.

Kinealy is clear that it is disputed, and also that Revisionism (no blame) is actually dominant and has been for a very long time.

Can we agree on that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:45 AM

If the "revisionist" view is dominant, then by pure definition and logic, Keith's misty eyed jingoistic drivel represents the revision, surely? Even if the Empire loving fools were right, then by challenging the accepted norm, they are being revisionist? You can't use it as an insulting word when technically the term applies to the other view, prat.

I love the bit where Keith said his pet historian took historical data into account when forming a view. On the gay bashing threads, he asserts that data is definitive and you can't form a view, because data is data full stop.

Why should anyone take anything he says seriously? Granted, I never have done but I can sniff the buggers out a mile off. Goes with the territory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:50 AM

Musket, you have no idea what we are even discussing.
Some historians are described as Nationalist.
Put very simply for you to understand, they blame Britain.
The Revisionists do not.

I am neither, and have no "pet historian."

I am just pointing out the obvious fact that there is a dispute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 06:52 AM

You really are wasting your time Muskett - this moron hasn't got an honest bone in his body and the chance of getting him to back down even when he has been totally humiliated is non existent
However - enjoy the circus
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 07:17 AM

Where is the link to your claim I don't know what we are talking about?

Show us the evidence.

You can't, can you? Liar etc etc where's my strait jacket?

(Sounds familiar Keith?)

Revision - the art of changing your mind in the light of consideration of present or subsequent evidence.

I doubt therefore I could call Keith a revisionist. He makes his mind up then tries to find evidence to support it. All detractors being liars of course.

I may be the only one who doesn't understand it, although I think I am not alone all the same... But I note I am the only one who has pointed out the UK government fascination with not interfering with Adam Smith principles at that time, as much a factor as the callous disregard of the Irish that such economic outlooks helped formulate.

But there again, I'm not on a list of Keith kite marked historians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 07:53 AM

Jim, how can I "back down" from claiming that blame is disputed, WHEN IT PATENTLY IS AND YOU DO NOT EVEN DENY IT!????

Musket, here is the quote you requested that shows you have completely failed to grasp the issues under discussion.

"Keith's misty eyed jingoistic drivel represents the revision, surely? Even if the Empire loving fools were right, then by challenging the accepted norm, they are being revisionist?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Allan C.
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 09:38 AM

The use of corn was mentioned earlier. This may be of interest. It was found here.   

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Peel came up with his own solution to the food problem. Without informing his own Conservative (Tory) government, he secretly purchased two shipments of inexpensive Indian corn (maize) directly from America to be distributed to the Irish. But problems arose as soon as the maize arrived in Ireland. It needed to be ground into digestible corn meal and there weren't enough mills available amid a nation of potato farmers. Mills that did process the maize discovered the pebble-like grain had to be ground twice.
To distribute the corn meal, a practical, business-like plan was developed in which the Relief Commission sold the meal at cost to local relief committees which in turn sold it at cost to the Irish at just one penny per pound. But peasants soon ran out of money and most landowners failed to contribute any money to maintain the relief effort.
The corn meal itself also caused problems. Normally, the Irish ate enormous meals of boiled potatoes three times a day. A working man might eat up to fourteen pounds each day. They found Indian corn to be an unsatisfying substitute. Peasants nicknamed the bright yellow substance 'Peel's brimstone.' It was difficult to cook, hard to digest and caused diarrhea. Most of all, it lacked the belly-filling bulk of the potato. It also lacked Vitamin C and resulted in scurvy, a condition previously unknown in Ireland due to the normal consumption of potatoes rich in Vitamin C.
Out of necessity, the Irish grew accustomed to the corn meal. But by June 1846 supplies were exhausted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM

Does anyone challenge my original statement and my only claim?


In the last couple of posts to the just closed Skibbereen thread, two people state that Britain was culpable as if there was no dispute.
For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed.

Renowned historian Dr. Christine Kenealy stated, quoting others, that such historians were "dominant" and had been since 1930.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 08:34 AM

"Jim, how can I "back down" from claiming that blame is disputed, "
It is certainly not disputed by your historian Christine Kenealy, and the basic facts of the Famine are not disputed by any historian.
The only thing under dispute if dealt with clearly in Kinealy's statement - that few historians have dealt with the apportioning of blame, leaving a handful of pro-Imperialist revisionists to say it wasn't Britain's fault - this is your line - go and read her statement   
All historians agree that the Peel Government tried its best to alleviate the suffering of the Famine victims.
The following Russell Government dismantled Peel's policies, closed the warehouses and contiued shipping essential food out of starving Ireland.
They clearly stated that famine relief was totally the responsibility of the Irish farmers and they deliberately created a situation in which emigration was the only solution - that is the inescapable opinion of all historians to one degree or another.
You still refuse to even acknowledge the fact that he Russell Government's view of the situation was set out quite clearly in Trevelyan's statement - the the economy of the Empire took precedence over feeding the Famine victims, the Famine was a God-administered punishment for the sins of the Irish people and the Famine was a convenient was of solving 'The Irish Question' was the attitude of the Russell's administration- anybody making such a statement would have been dismissed on the spot if it had in any way contradicted Government policy.
There is no dispute whatever over any of these points - how could there be, they are documented facts?
But then again, if you can give a historian who does contradict a single point of history - feel free to do so - Christine Lenealy certainly doesn't
What is in dispute is whether allowing the interests of Empire over the well-being of the Irish people was justified.
The British Government gave its decision on that at the time of the present Queen's visit by apologising for the way the Famine was handled.
There is no dispute whatever - this has been another of your one-man campaigns to justify the behaviour of the British Empire's treatment of its subjects.
So once again you stand alone in your arguments - against everyone of of us "pearlless swine" wh have contributed to this discussion (except Colonel Chinstrap, who offered his bar-room two pennyworth)
Your disgusting accusation that the Irish historians and educationalists have "brainwashed" Irish children (witch-hunting Massachusetts was your comparison) is also your invention, on par with your "All Pakistanis" statement and very much a part of your contempt for the Irish people.
No historian or educationalist has ever taught children to hate Britain - on the contrary, historiand, educationalists and politicians have deliberately omitted to apportion blame, as Christine Kinealy points out.
Your continuing reliance on unread (by you) historians to make your non-existent case is both dishonest and incredibly stupid – I would have thought Christine Kenealy blowing up I your face (yet unacknowledged by you) would have taught you a lesson – obviously not.
Carry on squirming
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM

And by the way - please stop deliberately mis-quoting Christine Kenealy- her atatement - above- indicates that her directly in opposition to your own and her "such historians" refer to thosewho have been peddling your line
Read the ******* article
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:12 PM

I have peddled no line.
I have not argued any History, and have no opinion on it.

I just said that blame is disputed by some historians, which is true.
ANYONE DENY THAT?????

Kinealy said that the revisionists (no blame) have been dominant since 1930.
ANYONE DENY THAT?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:55 PM

If it came from your keyboard, I'd lay odds on being satisfied in denying it without even bothering to read it.

Track record?

You know, the word "revisionist" means altering an original perception. Why is Keith so cock sure that anything that challenges a view he is comfortable is therefore revisionist?

It is a relative term. Blame was disputed at the time, never mind when comfortable people wrote about it in the abstract in order to get their own place in history.

"Relating history is a self serving exercise." A J P Taylor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 02:06 PM

"I have peddled no line."
Yes you bloody well have
You have claimed Britain to be innocent of all wrongdoing and you have gathered out-of-of context quotes from a few sources in order to prove your point.
Blame has never been attributed, so why should any historian deny anything?
The first major work on famine blame appeared last year written by Tim Pat Coogan - historians have not debated it it before this, only to discuss whether the actions taken my the Government to protect the Imperial economy was justified - the British Government have now decided it wasn't and have apologised - you know better of course - don't you always?
You still refuse to acknowledge your incredible foot-in-mouth in choosing Kinealy as your star witness - I suppose you now disagree with her now she has been proved to have cut the legs from under you?
Whatever Kinealy did say - she now has apportioned blame so she must be a revisionist - your deliberate misuse of the term as got me quite confused!
You have had the facts of the Famine, you continue to ignore Trevelyan's statement outlining Government policy - he seems to be the only one you do agree with.
Again, as with World War One - your whole case has been of your own invention.
Somewhat insane, don't you think?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 02:53 PM

Dear Oh Dear !! Calm down now !!

I have been in bands with Irish people ;I have served in the Armed Forces with Irish People ; I have been put on a charge and disciplined by an Irishman ( Master-At-Arms Paddy Calnan ) ;I have played with numerous Irish people in Tom King's pub "The Herschel Arms" in Slough .
NONE of thes people have never even MENTIONED the Potato Famine , or blamed me or the English in general for it .
I personally have no issues with the Vikings,Danes,Saxons, Romans,French or members of other ethnic groups who have invaded England and raped,pillaged,burned ,or inflicted any other indignities upon us .Life's too short , so GET ONE !!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:08 PM

You have claimed Britain to be innocent of all wrongdoing

Completely untrue.
I have never even expressed an opinion about it.

Much of the trouble between us results from you imagining I have said things I never have or would!

Musket, the Revisionists on this do NOT blame Britain.
Kinealy is NOT Revisionist but she concedes that they are dominant and have been for over eighty years.

The issue is disputed, and it is dishonest to state it as an undisputed fact.
That is why I intervened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:17 PM

"I have been in bands with Irish people"
You miss the point Bubbly - this is not about blame, it is about stopping idiots from re-writing history
Nobody here- has blamed "the English people in general" for anything, rather, they, like all people, would like to understand their history and set the record straight.
I am a Brit living in the West of Ireland and have had associations with this place since the early 1970s.
My people were Famine refugees who, like millions since the Famine, have been forced to leave their country and live elsewhere.
Far from being 'blamed;' for anything, my wife and I have been welcomed by the Irish people we live among - but that doesn't stop our neighbours from wanting to understand why their families are scattered all over the globe.
One of the problems with history is it never goes away - many Brits I know still fight World War Two every time a German spreads his towel out too far on a Greek or Spanish beach - not to mention the Nazi salutes at English/German football matches.
Please try to keep up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:29 PM

it is about stopping idiots from re-writing history

Err, that is what historians do Jim.
Right?

Historians dispute that Britain can be blamed.
That is all I have ever said, and it is true.
Anyone deny that?

You have attacked and abused me for saying the simple, plain truth.
Once again, I was right and Jim, Greg and Musket all wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM

Nyah nyah! Nah nyah!

Best to revise Keith's mental age downwards from four to two, methinks, if I understand Piaget correctly.

By the way, Terrible Two - which of Kinealy's books have you actually read?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:16 PM

I have read no books about the famine Greg.
I have no opinion on it Greg.
Historians dispute the question of blame Greg.
Kinealy says so, and says the revisionists (who say Britain can not be blamed) are dominant and have been for nearly NINETY YEARS Greg!

My case is just that, and I am right and you are wrong Greg.
It is dishonest to deny the disputed History.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:26 PM

Different day, Keith - same old ignorant bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 02:54 AM

I thought you had some respect for Kinealy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 04:00 AM

"Historians dispute the question of blame Greg."
No they don't - a tiny handful of your fellow Empire Loyalists attempt to defend British policy by saying (as Mrs Pinochet did) that there was no alternative to giving priority to the Imperial economy rather than feeding the starving Irish.
Not one single historian has ever challenged the facts of the Famine - the shipping of food out of starving Ireland, the closure of food stores and workhouses, the enforced emigration, the suggestion that the Famine was "God's punishment on the lazy Irish" and at the same time a convenient solution to "The Irish Question'.
That policy was made clear by Britain'r representative in Ireland, Sir Charles Trevelyan' in a letter - it is indisputable British policy.
Your breathtaking cowardice in even acknowledging this statement, let alone trying to explain away the genocidal implications of it (which you would no doubt attempt to do if you had the balls) sums up your totally dishonest tactic of hiding behind historians whose opinions you have totally distorted.
If you have one single shred of evidence of any historian denying these facts (not opinions - stated Government policy) then produce it.
The million who died and the countless millions who were subsequently forced to emigrate (and continue to do so) were little more than 'collateral damage' in defence of the British Empire.
Now - you proof that this is not the case is.............?
And once again, a reminder - Kinealy contradicts ever line you have attempted to peddle here. (12 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM)
Yours in growing amusement
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 04:01 AM

We tend to debate whilst Keith claims to intervene.

You know, despite all his dogmatism in pursuit of the wrong bone, it wasn't till I read that word a few posts up that I realised. He must be so far up his own arse.

What do you mean by intervene Keith? Are you saying that when something is said you disagree with, you have to put us right?

That would be most invaluable if it came from someone who didn't spout bollocks on any and possibly every subject.

Wow. Just when you wonder if you are being unkind on a person, they always seem to justify your suspicions.

Any chance of intervening where your friend gets his arse round his fascination with arses?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 06:18 AM

What do I mean by intervene?
Jim and another posted as if blame was undisputed.
It is, so I pointed that fact out.

Not a tiny handful of historians Jim.
Kinealy states that the views is dominant and has been for nearly ninety years.
She says she thinks the balance might change in the future, but the issue is not clear cut and you are being dishonest about it.

From your 12th March 3.59 pm quote,
"Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s"

And,"
Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway.
The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable. In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 07:37 AM

Now that really is doctoring texts to suit your agenda
This is the rest of the section you have carefully selected
The "revisionists" she is referring you, as she makes quite plain, are those who present only the effects of the Famine and not the culpability.
Are you really so stupid as to present selective quotes when the whole article is there to see
TREVELYAN'S LETTER EXPRESSED CLEARLY GOVERNMENT POLICY - ACT OF GOD - CLOSE WORKHOUSES AND GRAIN STORES - ENFORCED EMIGRATION - CULL THE POPULATION - UNQUOTE!!
You really are an abomination Keith
Jim Carroll

Full quote:
" But the soup kitchens were only ever intended to be a short-term measure, and after the government closed them in the autumn of 1847, mortality again rose sharply. This brief episode, however, in which free food was provided on a nation-wide basis, demonstrated that the administrative capability to provide relief existed. Unfortunately for the poor of Ireland, the political and ideological will to continue the scheme did not exist (see Peter Gray, 'The triumph of dogma: ideology and Famine relief' in HI Summer 1995).
The financial commitment to alleviate Irish suffering was also inadequate. In the course of the Famine, (over a seven year period) the British government spent approximately £9.5 million on various relief schemes. The greatest portion (over £4.5 million) was expended on the ill-conceived public works schemes in the winter of 1846-7 which coincided with the period of highest Famine mortality, as a result of weak and hungry people being forced to undertake hard, physical labour as a 'test' of destitution. Furthermore, much of the money provided for relief was given as a loan to the Irish administration, which was both interest and principal bearing and had to be paid back immediately. Overall, the contribution of the British government over seven years, represented only about 0.2 per cent of the British GNP. Less than ten years later, in the course of the Crimean war (over a three year period), the British government spent £69 million on military expenditure.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 07:46 AM

From the Independant
God and England made the Famine
"Charles E. Trevelyan, who served under both Peel and Russell at the Treasury, and had prime responsibility for famine relief in Ireland, was clear about God's role: "The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated".
John Mitchel, the Young Ireland leader, transported in 1848 to Van Diemens Land, had a different view, calling the famine "an artificial famine. Potatoes failed in like manner all over Europe; yet there was no famine save in Ireland. The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the famine".
A Trevelyan letter to Edward Twisleton, Chief Poor Law Commissioner in Ireland, contains the censorious, "We must not complain of what we really want to obtain. If small farmers go, and their landlords are reduced to sell portions of their estates to persons who will invest capital we shall at last arrive at something like a satisfactory settlement of the country"."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM

Jim, she is attacking Revisionism.
She is not a Revisionist, but she says most historians are, and have been for nearly ninety years!
Your are dishonest and wrong to claim there is no dispute.
There is, and I did not deserve to be attacked and abused merely for pointing out that truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM

"Jim, she is attacking Revisionism."
She is indeed - not your distorted interpretation of "revisionism"
You have consistently and quite deliberately misused the term 'revisionism' to avoid addressing the facts of British culpability.
You are still doing so.
One more time:
TREVELYAN'S LETTER EXPRESSED CLEARLY GOVERNMENT POLICY - ACT OF GOD - CLOSE WORKHOUSES AND GRAIN STORES - ENFORCED EMIGRATION - CULL THE POPULATION - UNQUOTE!!
I will continue to put this statement up and I have no doubt you will continue to ignore it - which is fine by me; every time you do so will be a further exposé of your lying dishonesty and yet another hole in your already well-riddled credibility.
"Your are dishonest and wrong to claim there is no dispute."
Don't you dare call me a liar - if you have any evidence what exactly that dispute is and how it contradicts anything I have said, tell us what it is; so far you have only alluded to it.
Jim Carroll
This from the Dictionary of Irish History Studies.
Revisionism
"For others, professional historians born in an independent Ireland and former students of the Institute of Historical Research in London, the British relationship is not paramount. For them, the Famine was a historical problem to be coolly dissected and demythologized. Anxious to wean the Irish public away from myths of the past, the revisionists tended to play down the importance of the Famine, or suggested that it was somehow inevitable and not the fault of the British government"


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

By the way - your deliberate misuse of the term "revisionism" was pointed out to you right at the beginning of this discussion, so you are not in the position to claim it was accidental.
You are in fact a "revisionist" as far as the English language is concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 10:36 AM

She is not a Revisionist, but she says most historians are, and have been for nearly ninety years!

Keith, you know fuck-all what she is or what she says, never having read any of her works.

Now, piss off back to fuckwit land, like a good lad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM

"Now, piss off back to fuckwit land, like a good lad."
Now why o I doubt that - he'll be haunting this thread till his keepers find him and take him back to the asylum
Jim Cattoll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 11:44 AM

Kinealy,
"Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts."

She uses Revisionist in the same way that I do.
That is the usage in this context.

"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2Z7fhxnXV

Robert Nielson.
The most controversial issue in Anglo-Irish affairs is the allegation that food was exported during the Famine. This was first claimed by Irish nationalists as a reason to end British rule and the Famine certainly put an end to the idea that Ireland would be a part of the United Kingdom for good. However, it is extraordinarily difficult to prove the claim true or false, and to my knowledge no one has. Records of exports simply weren't kept or have since been lost. It is certainly true that some food was exported, but there is no way of knowing how much or if it would have prevented the Famine. Food was also imported, though again, it is unknown where this outweighed the food that was exported. The starving Irish had little money so merchants naturally (in their mind) sold it abroad where they could get a better price. Had a ban on exports been put in place, lives would have been saved, but how many is unknown.
http://robertnielsen21.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/was-the-irish-famine-genocide/

Human limitations and timidity dominate
the story of the Great Famine, but of great and
deliberately imposed evil in high positions of
responsibility there is little evidence. The really great
evil lay in the totality of that social order which made
such a famine possible and which could tolerate, to the
extent it did, the sufferings and hardship caused by the failure of the potato crop.

http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/KS3_Famine_Interpretations.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 11:57 AM

Do you three sillies get it yet?

In the context of the famine, nationalist historians blame the government, and revisionists do not.

Kinealy is a nationalist, but concedes that is a minority view and long has been.

Blame is disputed.
That FACT can not be disputed.

You ARE dishonest if you claim otherwise Jim.

Stating that true fact does not make me a "fuckwit" or any of the other nasty things you people call me when you have no rational reply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 12:14 PM

People don't have a rational reply to irrational bollocks.

Fuckwit


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 12:24 PM

"Irrational bollocks"

It is irrational that you deny that some historians find that Britain can not be blamed for the famine, when I have quoted historians actually stating exactly that!

I am right.
It is disputed.
You three are, as ever, WRONG, and all the offensive and gratuitous abuse and name calling in the world can not hide your ignorance of the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 01:14 PM

Fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM

TREVELYAN'S LETTER EXPRESSED CLEARLY GOVERNMENT POLICY - ACT OF GOD - CLOSE WORKHOUSES AND GRAIN STORES - ENFORCED EMIGRATION - CULL THE POPULATION – UNQUOTE
ow youi are openly offering doctored opinions
You are a lying, shameless holocaust denier
You have carefully selected from Neilsons opinion (that's what it is) to make your lying case
What he actually wrote was:
It was not murder or genocide that killed so many, but neglect. The government believed in laissez-faire economics or what would now be called free market fundamentalism (I have a post on the issue here). They believed that the government should not interfere with the market or it would only make the situation worse. They believed (like many today) that aid to the Irish would only make them lazy and dependent on handouts. They believed Ireland was over-populated and welcomed emigration to America. There was certainly a lot of racism, but I believe the larger motivator was aristocratic disgust for the poor. The government didn't believe that poor people should be helped no matter how desperate their situation or what their nationality was. This, and not some genocidal master plan, was why so little was done during the Famine.
The Famine was the greatest calamity in Irish history. People needlessly died due to cold-hearted indifference and the elevation of the market above the lives of people. Nowhere near enough aid was given as prejudice won out over compassion. Laissez faire turned into Leave them to die. But this was a crime of neglect, not genocide. There never was intent to destroy the Irish. Had the government really wanted to exterminate the Irish, they would have done more than let natural disasters run their course. The claims by Coogan and others, while passionate, simply do not have enough evidence to support themselves.
Christine Kinealy actually wrote:
A more invidious variation of this theme is that the population of Ireland today is descended from the survivors—sometimes even described as the 'winners'—of the Famine period, thus implying a collective guilt amongst Irish people. Moreover, it has been suggested, that because a number of interest groups may have benefited from the economic dislocation of the Famine years, it is unfair to blame any other group for responding inadequately to the Famine. Survival and success, however, do not negate the suffering and starvation—either directly or indirectly—of the vast majority of the population.
No practical impediment to government intervention
Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense. Throughout the eighteenth century, and in 1817, 1822 and indeed, in 1845, the Irish and British governments imported food for resale in Ireland. In the subsistence crisis of 1782, an embargo was placed on the export of grain from Ireland, despite the opposition of Irish grain merchants. Furthermore, in the subsistence crisis of 1845 to 1847, which occurred throughout Europe, governments throughout the continent responded by temporarily closing their ports to exports (Portugal, Turkey, Russia, amongst others). This was, in fact, a traditional response to Famine conditions. Also, as the Corn Law crisis proved, there was no practical or ideological impediment to government intervention in the market place when it suited the purposes of the government.

WHAT IS YOUR - AND CHRISTINE KINEALY'S DEFINITION OF REVISIONISM ANED HOW DOES YOUR CLAIM OF WHAT HERS IS TIE UP WITH WHAT SE WROTE?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 05:33 PM

some historians find that Britain can not be blamed for the famine, when I have quoted historians actually stating exactly that!

Uh, fuckwit, some "historians" claim that the Holocaust never happened, that Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili was a misunderstood humanitarian and that the universe is only 6000 years old.

You are apparently among their intellectual equals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 06:45 PM

You have carefully selected from Neilsons opinion (that's what it is

Yes.
He is a historian.
There is dispute, as I said.

Definition of revisionism, Kinealy,
"In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history. This approach became known as 'revisionism'."

" A key objective of Irish revisionism was to exorcise the ghost of nationalism from historical discourse and to replace it with historical narratives that persistently played down the separateness and the trauma, and derided the heroes and villains of Irish history."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM

""In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history"
The "traditionalist nationalist view of history" has been to deal only with the effects of the famine and not discuss its causes - to rely on emotion rather than facts - Kinealy has said that and it is above for you to read if there are not too many words for you to cope with.
That is her accusation against the revisionist view of history - it's all up there - read it.
Kinealy, Neilson and every other historian have squarely laid the blame of the consequences of the Famine on the Russell Government.
All of them have taken pains to point out the closure of the warehouses and workhouses, the shipping of food out of Ireland, the laissez-faire policy which put the Imperial economy above the well-being of the Irish people.... that has been a major part of all the writings on the subject.
A few (very few) have attempted to justify those actions as unavoidable, but not one single historian has ever attempted to deny them - they couldn't if they wanted to - they are established facts of history.
You, on the other hand, have refused even to acknowledge them - to you, they are unimportant.
You are doing what no historian would dare do - you are attempting to absolve the British Empire from all blame - a familiar agenda with you.   
In a way, all historians are 'revisionists' on the subject - none of them have dealt with the Trevelyan letter and its implications of deliberate ethnic cleansing.
Kinealy makes a point above and in one of her books, which I have just finished, that one of the problems with discussing the history of the Famine today is the likelihood of giving comfort to dissident Republicans at a time when a United Ireland is being negotiated - it's a fair point.
I personally can't see how such a statement from Britain's powerful representative in Ireland cannot possibly be construed in any other way than 'ethnic cleansing and holocaust' - it was Trevelyan's openly stated view and he was left in office after he expressed it - he was later honoured for his services by a grateful Government.
You will, no doubt, ignore all this and continue to distort and misrepresent history in the way you have now made a regular habit in doing.
The only value of discussing anything with you is to allow you to show yourself up as the Jingoistic Empire Loyalist that you are.
You have no support here and you have had virtually none on any important thread you have contributed to.
You have used phrases like 'pearl before swine' to describe those who oppose you and have declared yourself "infallible" - so you have claimed superiority over virtually every member of Mudcat - ignorant "swine" all.
You are now a figure of fun every time you take part in debates, especially ones like this where you openly admit that you have not even the interest to read up on them - have you really never read a book on something you spend so much time pontificating on - is that the level of your interest?
Yours in anticipation of even more entertainment today
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM

""In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history"
The "traditionalist nationalist view of history" has been to deal only with the effects of the famine and not discuss its causes - to rely on emotion rather than facts - Kinealy has said that and it is above for you to read if there are not too many words for you to cope with.
That is her accusation against the revisionist view of history - it's all up there - read it.
Kinealy, Neilson and every other historian have squarely laid the blame of the consequences of the Famine on the Russell Government.
All of them have taken pains to point out the closure of the warehouses and workhouses, the shipping of food out of Ireland, the laissez-faire policy which put the Imperial economy above the well-being of the Irish people.... that has been a major part of all the writings on the subject.
A few (very few) have attempted to justify those actions as unavoidable, but not one single historian has ever attempted to deny them - they couldn't if they wanted to - they are established facts of history.
You, on the other hand, have refused even to acknowledge them - to you, they are unimportant.
You are doing what no historian would dare do - you are attempting to absolve the British Empire from all blame - a familiar agenda with you.   
In a way, all historians are 'revisionists' on the subject - none of them have dealt with the Trevelyan letter and its implications of deliberate ethnic cleansing.
Kinealy makes a point above and in one of her books, which I have just finished, that one of the problems with discussing the history of the Famine today is the likelihood of giving comfort to dissident Republicans at a time when a United Ireland is being negotiated - it's a fair point.
I personally can't see how such a statement from Britain's powerful representative in Ireland cannot possibly be construed in any other way than 'ethnic cleansing and holocaust' - it was Trevelyan's openly stated view and he was left in office after he expressed it - he was later honoured for his services by a grateful Government.
You will, no doubt, ignore all this and continue to distort and misrepresent history in the way you have now made a regular habit in doing.
The only value of discussing anything with you is to allow you to show yourself up as the Jingoistic Empire Loyalist that you are.
You have no support here and you have had virtually none on any important thread you have contributed to.
You have used phrases like 'pearl before swine' to describe those who oppose you and have declared yourself "infallible" - so you have claimed superiority over virtually every member of Mudcat - ignorant "swine" all.
You are now a figure of fun every time you take part in debates, especially ones like this where you openly admit that you have not even the interest to read up on them - have you really never read a book on something you spend so much time pontificating on - is that the level of your interest?
Yours in anticipation of even more entertainment today
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 05:10 AM

That is her accusation against the revisionist view of history - it's all up there - read it.

I have, several times.
She does attack the revisionist view of famine History.
She is part of the dispute that you deny.

That whole essay that you copied is about that dispute.
She is anti-revisionist, but concedes that revisionists are "dominant" and long have been.

All I have ever said is that it is disputed.
I was right, and you were wrong to ridicule and abuse me for it.
The "fuckwit" was right and you were all wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM

"She does attack the revisionist view of famine History."
You've been told what her attacks on the 'Revisionist view"' are - she says exactly what it is and I've pointed it out to you
"You were all wrong".
Don't you find the constant repetition of this disturbing, even from your own point of view?
All you have ever said is "Britain didn't do it" - how could you possible say anything else never having been interested enough to read a book on the subject?
By the way - did you know that Christine Kinealy has been compared to Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith the "revisionist"
This (critical) review put her point of view perfectly - don't know enough on the subject to make my mind up one way or the other
but it does outline her approach to revisionism pretty well.
You're a jingoistic idiot, bur please keep it up - I don't start work for a couple of hours
A Death-dealing Famine
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 06:56 AM

I'll be happy to continue doing this while you are happy to continue making a fool of yourself by denying what's there for all so see
Jim Carroll
The Great Irish Famine was a turning point in the development of modern Ireland. In the space of six years, Ireland lost 25 per cent of her population through death and disease. This statistic alone marked the Irish Famine as one of the greatest human tragedies in modern European history.
Yet it is not only the number of people who died which makes the Famine such a tragedy. It is also the way in which they lost their lives. Death from famine or famine-related diseases is slow, painful and obscene.
Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain.
This year marked the 150th anniversary of 'Black '47' – the single year when disease, suffering and mortality were at their highest. But the Famine did not end in 1847. In 1849, the level of mortality was almost as great as it had been in 1847.
Today – even though famine still exists in the world – it is hard to imagine the suffering, the sense of loss and the trauma of Irish people during those years. The recollections of a survivor of the Famine years convey some of this loss:
In A Death-Dealing Famine she "focuses on the key factors which nurtured both policy formulations and the unfolding of events in mid-nineteenth-century Ireland. These include political ideologies, such as the influential doctrine of political economy; providentialist ideas which ordained that the potato blight was a 'judgement of God'; and an opportunistic interpretation of the crisis that viewed the Famine and the consequent social dislocation as an opportunity to reconstruct Irish society. Kinealy also examines the roles of the Irish landlords and merchants, political factions in Westminster and the pivotal role played by civil servants within the British government."
http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/knealy.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 08:25 AM

All you have ever said is "Britain didn't do it"

Completely untrue!
I have never expressed an opinion about it and do not even have one.

All I ever said was that historians dispute it.
They do, so why all the abuse, swearing and name calling?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM

Perhaps the irritating "I'm right and you are wrong" gets on people's' nipples?

Compounded by being an inaccurate observation most of the time....


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 09:00 AM

One of the only things left to say is until you show enough interest in this or any subject you use to back up your blimpish jingoism to read something on it you will never be anything more than the laughing stock you have become on this forum.
You have ignored everything that has been put before you, you have not shown the slightest desire to learn anything of the subject in hand and once again, you are backtracking on something you have said throughout this argument
Historians do not say what you clam they have said - you made it up.
You have had enough of Kinealy to know what stance she takes
Yu have already changed your tack on this thread and denied doing so (see above) - from the start your line was that Britain was in no way responsible for the Famine and you then scurried around for cut-'n-pastes which you mistakenly believed backed your case.
Your misunderstanding of the term "revisionism" was, is and will remain a classic example of idiocy.
You have blankly refused even to acknowledge points before you over and over again
You are now refusing to respond to the facts about Kinealy even though you have had three lots
Let's face it Keith, you are not very good at your flag-wagging blimpishness; your behaviour is crude and transparent and it has attracted comment every time you've displayed it - baiting you has ceased to be fun.
Go away and come back when you've read a book, you have become tiresome and I'm far too busy to waste time entertaining idiots.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 09:12 AM

Kinealy writes about the dispute.
She is part of the dispute.
She says that revisionists do not blame the government.
She says what I say about the dispute.

I claim no knowledge of the famine, except that blame is disputed.
Jim alone has posted pages and pages of telling one version only.

Even to state the fact that there is a dispute creates outrage among the forum fascists.
No-one dares to say anything else and the BS section is dwindling away after being such a vibrant place for so many years.

Not even putting up the other case, but just daring to state there is one produces a shit-storm of foul-mouthed abuse, vilification and ridicule.

The forum used to be a better place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM

"The forum used to be a better place."
It did indeed
Nobody else behaves the way do on Mudcat Keith, if they did it would not be worth remaining a member.
"Stand not upon your going, but go".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 03:09 PM

What is my behaviour?

I dared to say that there is another view to that of you and the forum fascists.
I did not even put the alternative view, just the suggestion of it was too much for you.

In return, not reasoned response, but vile, foul mouthed abuse, vilification and ridicule.

With people like you on the forum, ordinary decent people fear to put a view in case it brings down on them that shit storm of mindless abuse.

You people have deprived Mudcat of somewhere to exchange views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 04:37 AM

1: Trevelyan's letter if that is the one written on the 9th October 1846 to Thomas Spring-Rice, Lord Mounteagle, is one in which Trevelyan gives HIS opinion and evaluation of the situation. No Government Policy is described in any detail and the failure of the land owners to accept their responsibilities is highlighted. No mention is made of the closure of workhouses or grain stores, no mention is made of enforced emigration and no mention is made with regards to culling the population.

If anyone wants to read the letter in it's entirety I provide a link below:

Trevelyan's Letter


2: One thing you omit to mention the relief given by the British Government was at the time unprecedented and was ten times that of the next largest charitable source of relief. It was also greater than all other donations combined.

3: You also seem to conveniently forget precisely how "government" works in a Parliamentary democracy - things are voted on and there are times when members of the political party in power will vote against the government. Those in power then were not the professional politicians of today whose only loyalty is to their party and to keep it in power for as long as possible by whatever means available. You mentioned the "Corn Laws", the importance of which was their repeal to allow free trade and the end of protectionism for home grown wheat for both British and Irish farmers. Peel succeeded in pushing through the repeal of the old protectionist Corn Laws of 1815, but it cost him his Government as he lost the vote on his Bill on Catholic Emancipation. He knew full well that the Whigs who had voted for him on his repeal of the Corn Laws would not vote with him for Catholic Emancipation so he deliberately crashed his Government to put the matter to the people.

4: For all the talk about how the British Government should have done this and they should have done that, not one single person, not one single historian has come up with any detail as to how they could have actually achieved what was required. If anybody doubts what I am saying, just cast your minds back a few months to Typhoon Haiyan, how long did it take for the relief effort and international aid to get organised? How long did it take to get through? How long will it take for that relief effort to show any real effect as far as the lives of the people affected go? And that is with all the benefits of modern technology immediately to hand - None of which were available to the British Government in the period 1845 to 1851.

Did the Famine strike throughout Ireland? No it did not. If you look at the parts worst affected take a look at the means of communication and transportation. Very simplistically people talk about an embargo on the export of food from Ireland, which supposedly had worked in the previous famine in 1782 (Same people conveniently forget that the famines of 1727-1730; 1740-1741 & 1782-1783 were nowhere near the scale of the famine of 1845-1847) - just how was all this food being grown in Ireland to be preserved and distributed to the areas that needed it? No ports, no railroads, very poor road networks, no storage facilities, no distribution network. The most successful survival technique adopted by people suffering from the ravages of widespread famine throughout time has always been - MOVE. In Cecile Woodham-Smith's definitive account of the famine, "The Great Hunger", she details the number of people who died in Ireland from malnutrition in the course of a normal year - it was astounding somewhere in the region of 250,000 IIRC. She also makes the point that if that was considered "normal" then things have to get far, far worse before things get noticed. She also clearly states that the great killer in the years 1845 to 1851 was not hunger it was disease and that the thing that depleted the population of Ireland more than anything else between the years 1845 to 1851 was neither, starvation or disease - it was emigration - i.e. people MOVED.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM

It is difficult to exchange views when one member, let's call him.. I don't know, Keith, for the sake of giving him a name, tries stifling debate by continually finding snippets, often out of context, on websites that support one view or seem to, and use that to try and stop debate by applying a "this is right, therefore you are wrong" perspective.

Debate is debate. Web crawl Top Trumps is subjective at best and boorish at all times.

Oh, and putting the words of others without qualification and then trying to say you haven't expressed a view doesn't help your credibility or lack of.



I can confirm that potatoes are abundant in Ireland again. I had hash browns as part of my breakfast this morning at Bewleys in Leopardstown. Still got a thick head from last night in Templebar, but got to get a bit of work done today before spending the next few days here with my lad, who flies in tomorrow morning. Beer to drink, spuds to eat and old friends to catch up with. (Also, rather excited about doing a turn at The Oliver St John Gogarty Wednesday night. A bit of an honour.)

Still, waffling on about me being in Ireland is at least more on topic than claiming the opinion of a historian is different to the same opinion and historian when you first mentioned her, eh Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:17 AM

I do not recognises any such Keith.
This one has just said that there are different versions of famine History that are known as nationalist and revisionist.
That is a fact so I was, and am, right about that.

No "trawling" required Musket.

So, do you now accept that I was right all along?
If not, point out specifically anything I have got wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM

Trevelyan was an appointee of the Government - the responsibility for what happened was theirs, not his.
Had his opinions on such a fundamental matter coming from someone holding such a vital post conflicted, in any way conflicted with theirs he would have been dismissed - he was honoured for his work in Ireland - I million dead and mass immigration forever.
The government adhered to his wishes to the letter because they were one and the same.
In the end his was the voice that decided Ireland's fate
When the Government softened and decided to send ship-loads of seed corn for relief, he opposed it - none was sent.
It was the Government decision to dismantle was Peel had set up - not Trevelyan's.
The Government closed the workhouses and warehouses, adopted a policy of laissez-faire and mass immigration - not Trevelyan.
Britain put the interests of the richest and most powerful Empire on the planet before the lives of the Irish people - a million died and many millions were forced to emigrate - that is the judgement of history.
It is not the job of historians to "come up with a solution - it is their job to judge if the actions taken were the right ones - all have said that they weren't.
It doesn't hack it to blame the staff - it was Government policy, pure and simple, that was responsible for the outcome of the famine.
Whether the Government shared Trevelyan's views was immaterial - it was his opinions that were translated into action (or should that be inaction)
Jim Carroll

Trevelyan, Sir Charles Edward (1807-1886), British civil servant. As assistant secretary to the Treasury, 1840-59, he virtually dictated relief measures during the GREAT FAMINE (1845-9 . Together with the Prime Minister, LORD JOHN RUSSELL, and Chancellor of the Exchequer, SI CHARLES WOOD, he was totally committed to free trade; in addition he held the belief that the famine resulted both from a benign Providence seeking to reduce an expanding population and from 'the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.' From March 1846 he controlled public works through the disbursement of public funds. He defended the export of grain from Ireland on grounds of free trade; when rioting broke out in protest at the exporting of corn he deployed mobile columns of two thousand soldiers (who were provisioned with beef, pork, and biscuits) 'to be directed on particular ports at short notice.' He was opposed to railway construction as a form a relief and successfully opposed Russell's scheme for the distribution of some £50,000 worth of seedlings to tenant-farmers. Informed bv an official, 4 September 1847, that 'the face of the country is covered with ripe corn while the people dread starvation' and that 'the grain will go out of the country, sold to pay the rent' Trevelyan (who had never visited Ireland) replied, 'It is my opinion that too much has been done for the people. Under such treatment the people have grown worse instead of better: and we must now try what independence exertion can do . . .' In 1848 he ceased Treasury grants to distressed POOR LAW unions, though by now there was an outbreak of cholera. Later in the year he was knighted for his services to Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM

Trevelyan was an appointee of the Government - the responsibility for what happened was theirs, not his.
Had his opinions on such a fundamental matter coming from someone holding such a vital post conflicted, in any way conflicted with theirs he would have been dismissed - he was honoured for his work in Ireland - I million dead and mass immigration forever.
The government adhered to his wishes to the letter because they were one and the same.
In the end his was the voice that decided Ireland's fate
When the Government softened and decided to send ship-loads of seed corn for relief, he opposed it - none was sent.
It was the Government decision to dismantle was Peel had set up - not Trevelyan's.
The Government closed the workhouses and warehouses, adopted a policy of laissez-faire and mass immigration - not Trevelyan.
Britain put the interests of the richest and most powerful Empire on the planet before the lives of the Irish people - a million died and many millions were forced to emigrate - that is the judgement of history.
It is not the job of historians to "come up with a solution - it is their job to judge if the actions taken were the right ones - all have said that they weren't.
It doesn't hack it to blame the staff - it was Government policy, pure and simple, that was responsible for the outcome of the famine.
Whether the Government shared Trevelyan's views was immaterial - it was his opinions that were translated into action (or should that be inaction)
Jim Carroll

Trevelyan, Sir Charles Edward (1807-1886), British civil servant. As assistant secretary to the Treasury, 1840-59, he virtually dictated relief measures during the GREAT FAMINE (1845-9 . Together with the Prime Minister, LORD JOHN RUSSELL, and Chancellor of the Exchequer, SI CHARLES WOOD, he was totally committed to free trade; in addition he held the belief that the famine resulted both from a benign Providence seeking to reduce an expanding population and from 'the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.' From March 1846 he controlled public works through the disbursement of public funds. He defended the export of grain from Ireland on grounds of free trade; when rioting broke out in protest at the exporting of corn he deployed mobile columns of two thousand soldiers (who were provisioned with beef, pork, and biscuits) 'to be directed on particular ports at short notice.' He was opposed to railway construction as a form a relief and successfully opposed Russell's scheme for the distribution of some £50,000 worth of seedlings to tenant-farmers. Informed bv an official, 4 September 1847, that 'the face of the country is covered with ripe corn while the people dread starvation' and that 'the grain will go out of the country, sold to pay the rent' Trevelyan (who had never visited Ireland) replied, 'It is my opinion that too much has been done for the people. Under such treatment the people have grown worse instead of better: and we must now try what independence exertion can do . . .' In 1848 he ceased Treasury grants to distressed POOR LAW unions, though by now there was an outbreak of cholera. Later in the year he was knighted for his services to Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:29 AM

In addition, of course, it was Government policy to give the landlords a free hand and evict tenants who were unable to pay rent, they even provided the forces of law-and-order to do it - this went of for decades after the famine ended.
Don't thik Trevelyan can be held responsible for that either, but maybe I've missed something!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 06:02 AM

Whilst waiting for the man I am here to see, I got bored so am sad enough to have a quick look at Mudcat.

Great to see my posts still here on this thread at any rate.





Yeah, Keith, you are right all along. Far right at times, but if it stops you coming out with pompous shit, then let's all worship at the temple of Right Keith.

Right.





Still waiting. I came in on the Luas tram, but he is driving in and Dublin centre is a bit on the busy side today. You'd think there were roads blocked off for parades or something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 06:06 AM

Just point out anything I got wrong then Musket.

Confident prediction-you won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 10:42 AM

Ah Christmas after wading through your usual pointless and ill-informed waffle it becomes abundantly clear that you simply didn't bother reading Trevelyan's letter then?

The Famine existed through the years 1845, 1846 and 1847.

How much of a railway network could have been constructed in that time using the technology available? Considering of course that the work would have to have been carried out by "weak and hungry people being forced to undertake hard, physical labour" - your words Christmas not mine.

Fields of corn were the answer then eh? How were all those tiny parcels of land to be prepared for this crop of grain? Indeed was the land even suitable for planting wheat? How was this seed corn to be transported and distributed? What would the yield be per half or quarter acre? Enough to feed the poor beggar who had to put in all that work plus his family? I somehow doubt it.

Seedlings were another answer were they? What type of seedlings Christmas? Or, as I suspect, do you just simply not know the difference in terms between seed corn and seedlings?

Tell me Christmas when canals became big in mainland Britain for the transport of goods who was it built them? The "Government" or private enterprise? Who was it that built and improved the roads? "Government" or private enterprise? Who was it built the railway networks, "Government" or private enterprise?

Oh by the way take a look at the history of railways in Ireland I think it would surprise you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 11:32 AM

Another British Empire Imperialist heard from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 01:58 PM

well... it would seem that changing the thread name from famine to blight did little if anything to change the need to battle over past events....

How about we instead look to lessons that could and should be learned from past mistakes/events....

Lesson number one... beware vulnerabilities in your food supply. Reliance on a limited number of food plants or animals - not just kind but also the genetic strains of each- increases vulnerability to disease and reduced production. Translation... don't put all your eggs in one basket if you want to protect your food supply from getting smashed.

Lesson number two... there are always those who seek to take advantage or profit from another's misfortune... politics and profiteering are two of the most exploitive human activities I can think of.

Lesson number three... good intentions need to be coupled with knowledge & understanding to affect a positive result.

It is most likely that the maize imported was actually flint corn... which needs to be made into hominey to be edible... which is why grits (ground from hominey) is a mainstay food down south. Cornmeal is ground from dent corn and usually mixed with wheat flour for baking, or cooked into a mush or fritter. And you still need to add beans to provide a complete mix of amino acids necessary for a healthy diet. Introducing rutabagas would have worked better in the early years of the blight... imho.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 02:44 PM

I have been long familiar with Trevelyan's letter - what's your point?
The British Government decided to do nothing that would effect the Imperial economy and they made that perfectly plain.
They dismantled the efforts of the previous government and put nothing in its place - that is what caused the catastrophe, not Trevelyan's opinion of the Irish, which was shared by a large percentage of the British establishment anyway.
It was the genocidal inaction that every single historian who has written on the subject has condemned - the racism that was behind it just explained that inaction.
Opening shops so those who had been ruined by the catastrophe could go and buy food just about sums up the mentality of the powers-that be.
This was pretty well confirmed when they prevented farmers from rebuilding their lives by allowing the landlords to evict those worst affected by that Famine - even providing backup - Clements - Lord Leitrim, was one of the worst examples
The railway project was suggested as part of the famine relief scheme to provide employment, while at the same time opening out the rural economy - not just an act of charity - even that was refused.
Instead, meaningless labour projects were devised, like building walls across open moorland, through woods and over mountains, which served no useful purpose whatever.
Around here we have what are still referred to as 'The Shilling Walls' across the old landed estate
Peel's Government sent five shillings to be paid to each man who worked on a project to build 'Famine walls' over a local landlord's estate - the English landlord who was responsible for distributing the relief paid only one shilling per man - hence 'The Shilling Walls
The actions taken (and not taken) by the British Government during and following the Famine virtually depopulated Ireland; Trevelyan's attitude is an indication of why.
Again - what's your point.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 03:05 PM

You don't ask much Keith!

Not enough hours in the day nor charge in my iPad to list your terminological inexactitudes. Anyway, the taxi awaits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 04:31 PM

OK Musket just pick one.
Confident prediction-you won't.

Jim,
It was the genocidal inaction that every single historian who has written on the subject has condemned -
Not true.
the racism that was behind it just explained that
False premise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 03:05 AM

"The British Government decided to do nothing that would effect the Imperial economy and they made that perfectly plain."

Rather at odds with the fact that they actually did more than everybody else combined isn't it?

But then perhaps you would have preferred it had they actually done nothing? There was certainly no deliberate intent with a view to the genocide you speak of.

Very good post from sciencegeek

"Lesson number one... beware vulnerabilities in your food supply. Reliance on a limited number of food plants or animals - not just kind but also the genetic strains of each- increases vulnerability to disease and reduced production. Translation... don't put all your eggs in one basket if you want to protect your food supply from getting smashed."

In Ireland of the 18th and 19th centuries the dependence in certain places was brought about by a mixture of debatable necessity coupled with indolence and ignorance.

"Lesson number two... there are always those who seek to take advantage or profit from another's misfortune... politics and profiteering are two of the most exploitative human activities I can think of."

Land Agents and the Gombeen Men the vast majority of whom like the land owners were Irishmen.

"Lesson number three... good intentions need to be coupled with knowledge & understanding to affect a positive result."

Failed unprecedented reactions of the British Government faced with a unique crisis of unparalleled magnitude that basically they were not equipped to deal with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 04:25 AM

"Rather at odds with the fact that they actually did more than everybody else combined isn't it?"
Been there - done that
Ireland's fate in such circumstances was the direct responsibility of the British Empire, Peel's Government acknowledged that fact and made some attempts to alleviate the catastrophe.
The Russell administration abandoned that responsibility, dismantled the few, inadequate measures that Peel had installed and decided to give the market a free hand; they actually stated than nothing should be done to hinder the free market.
Their role wasn't just passive, but an extremely active one - continuing to ship food out of Ireland, which was already known as "England's Breadbasket", putting armed guards on the locked warehouses and providing military support for the evictions that had begun in 1847.
It's sole contribution to the crisis was to create a situation where the only solution to the crisis was to emigrate (stated policy) and set up assisted passage schemes
They deliberately set out to alter the economic and cultural structure of Ireland so it would no longer be the thorn in the side of the Empire that it had been for centuries - and they would have succeeded had it not been for the continuing opposition of 1867 and the Land League Wars, eventually leading to the War of Independence.
Whether the death toll was deliberate or just a spin-off of British action/inaction remains a moot point among historians, the fact that it was a result of it is part of the history they have documented - everything stated by the historians Numbnuts has put up says exactly that.
To say that the most wealthy and powerful Empire on the planet was not in a position to do anything about it is, as Christine Kinealy pointed out "nonsense":
"Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense"
You really should read what your friend has put up.
Another quote summing up Britain's 'inability' to honour its direct responsibility:
"Following the defeat of Napoleonic France in 1815, Britain enjoyed a century of almost unchallenged dominance and expanded its imperial holdings across the globe."
The gombeen men were a side effect - in no way a cause, and to blame them is the same as blaming Trevelyan - Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they delibarately abused that responsibility fot the 'good of Empire'.
Woodham-Smith described other types of exploitation - that of relief supplies being purchased by English and Irish merchants, deliberately shipped back and forth across the Irish Sea up to four times before they were unloaded, in order to manipulate the selling prices upward; prolonging the already extreme shortages - part of the 'free trade' that the Russell administration had pledged itself to.
Britain not only did nothing, but it manipulated that 'nothing' in order to gain political and economic capital out of the 'Great Famine'.
After it was over, they continued to support and actively assist the Landlords, Clements, Vandeleur, Stackpole... the English 'gombeen men', to evict the survivors, leading to revolts and permanent land warfare.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 05:47 AM

Britain's 'Famine Relief' efforts
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 08:48 AM

"Ireland's fate in such circumstances was the direct responsibility of the British Empire, Peel's Government acknowledged that fact and made some attempts to alleviate the catastrophe."

Direct responsibility of the British Empire eh? How? Did the British Empire have a Parliament then Christmas? If it did I have never heard of it, or anyone who purportedly led it? Where would this British Empire Government stand in precedence and relation to say the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1845? Would it be superior or inferior? Of course no such parliament existed and there was no overriding monolith called the British Empire, even if there was it would have no say with regard to affairs in Ireland post the Union in 1801 which made Ireland part of the United Kingdom.

The Tory Government of Robert Peel and the Duke of Wellington wanted to do more for Ireland than just simply repeal the 1815 Corn Laws they wanted to push ahead with Catholic Emancipation, but the Corn Law topic split their party and Peel needed help from the Liberal Opposition. The Government lost a vote in the Commons and Peel went to the country which returned Russell's Liberal government.

"The Russell administration abandoned that responsibility, dismantled the few, inadequate measures that Peel had installed and decided to give the market a free hand; they actually stated than nothing should be done to hinder the free market."

That was the ticket that they had been elected on and the Corn Laws of 1815 remained repealed. I think that the one thing that yourself and Ms Kinealy have forgotten is that the political process in the UK does not run on diktat, if a law has to be passed it must first be presented and debated in the House of Commons and passed, it then goes to the House of Lords where they can suggest amendments and then it gets passed into law.

"Their role wasn't just passive, but an extremely active one - continuing to ship food out of Ireland, "

To suggest that it was the British Government who insisted that food be shipped out of Ireland is just fanciful nonsense, the Corn Laws having been repealed, meant that those who farmed and grew the food could sell it where they liked for the best price their crops could sell for. Remember these were "Irish" farmers selling their produce, and that there was no way of getting this produce to the west of Ireland and no means to store and distribute it there. No point at all in apportioning blame where it does not belong or in suggesting totally impracticable solutions and fancifully imagining that things could be done that were impossible at the time.

"It's sole contribution to the crisis was to create a situation where the only solution to the crisis was to emigrate (stated policy) and set up assisted passage schemes."

Yep that just about sums it up – Ireland was vastly over-populated, it's track record was extremely poor as were its future prospects unless things were done to get people off the land. Judge for yourself, famines in 1727-1730; 1740-1741; 1782-1783, what would you suggest? Just let things drift on as they were, hoping for the best, with a burgeoning population boom only serving to make matters worse in the future? Not even sheep are dumb enough to remain on hills with no grazing.

"They deliberately set out to alter the economic and cultural structure of Ireland so it would no longer be the thorn in the side of the Empire that it had been for centuries - and they would have succeeded had it not been for the continuing opposition of 1867 and the Land League Wars, eventually leading to the War of Independence.

The economic and cultural structure of Ireland did need altering, some say it still does as recent events have shown.

"Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense" - Christine Kinealy

Idiotic argument – that would have required legislation passed in Parliament. Do you want ports opened or closed? If you have closed the ports for exports how do you get imports in? Imports of what? The famine did not just strike in Ireland it struck the whole of Europe and every country in Europe was buying up American cereal crops so what is it that you are going to import that wasn't already being imported?

Ms Kinealy conveniently dismisses the lack of ports, the lack of railways and the poor roads as mere inconsequential details. But real problems and lack of infrastructure cannot be by-passed and dismissed in retrospect with a wave of a historians magic wand. Food once harvested tends to go rotten rather rapidly unless it is distributed quickly. In 19th century Ireland that just couldn't happen.

"Following the defeat of Napoleonic France in 1815, Britain enjoyed a century of almost unchallenged dominance and expanded its imperial holdings across the globe."

Fail to see the relevance of this

"The gombeen men were a side effect - in no way a cause"

On the contrary Christmas in the west of Ireland the Gombeen men were the cause by forcing fishermen to sell their gear and boats, to repay their debts at ruinous interest, thereby crippling them twice over, once by robbing them of their livelihoods and twice by robbing the population of a bountiful source of protein.

This next one is the typical "socialists" mantra (i.e. It is always some else's fault):

"Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they deliberately abused that responsibility for the 'good of Empire'."

Ehmm No. Ireland was the responsibility of the people who lived there, same as Scotland was the responsibility of the Scots who lived there (No equivalent of the Gombeen Men in Scotland Christmas – so the Highlands did not suffer as badly as the west of Ireland).

Drink any Guinness yesterday Christmas? Arthur Guinness as Irish as they come, his grandson Sir Benjamin Lee Guinness had his hands on the tiller of the Guinness family fortune between 1839 and 1868.

"By 1855 Guinness had become the richest man in Ireland having built up a huge export trade and by continually enlarging his brewery"

Hey Christmas – what are the ingredients for making porter? What were the ingredients required in the years 1845 to 1851? All the British Governments fault eh?

"Woodham-Smith described other types of exploitation - that of relief supplies being purchased by English and Irish merchants, deliberately shipped back and forth across the Irish Sea up to four times before they were unloaded, in order to manipulate the selling prices upward; prolonging the already extreme shortages - part of the 'free trade' that the Russell administration had pledged itself to."

And the activities of those English and Irish merchants being legal could be prevented by the British Government how?

"Britain not only did nothing, but it manipulated that 'nothing' in order to gain political and economic capital out of the 'Great Famine'."

I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 10:06 AM

"I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."

An unworthy statement in my opinion. Why not ask the same about slavery or the Holocaust?

There is a huge difference between the actions of individual people and their motives for short term gains vs. what is the "enlightened self interest" of nations. You only need to observe the antics of the Tea Party in the US to see the same narrow minded self interest in action.

Man's inhumanity to man goes back as far as you care to look. As long as there are people with power who lack empathy for their fellows, this kind of behavior will persist... new place, new circumstance, but same behavior and outcome... It's the fact that they have the power/ability to put their decisions into effect that causes such hardships. Be they big business or politicians makes little difference to those who end up with the short end of the stick.

As for whining songs... see how cheerful you are if you lose most of your family to starvation and are forced from your homeland... those people were victims of discrimination coupled with a natural disaster that no one of that era was equipped to handle. There is no call to mock their plight.

Britain as a nation carries the stigma... while those culpable made out nicely for themselves and are now as dead as the famine victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 11:33 AM

Utter gibberish - you have the facts - you have the statements of the historians - you have the actions of Landlord, with full official British support - you have the consequences
You offer pro - Imperialist bluster in return.
"And the activities of those English and Irish merchants being legal could be prevented by the British Government how?"
By closing the ports to such trade, as Kinealy suggests - how simple could that have been?
Britain backed the free market - that is how the free market operates.
You dismissal of Keith's star witness, Christine Kinealy somewhat gives your support for his case a sever kick in the goolies - perhaps time for an emergency script meeting to enable you both to sing from the same hymn sheet.
"interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads"
Many thanks for your summing up of the Irish attempts to record their history in verse - somewhat reminiscet of members of the British establishment's "whinging Yids" following the events of World War Two, don'tcha think?
After all they're/we're all only t'ick Paddies who deserved "God's punishment.
Hope you don't mind my mentioning it, but you always become frenetically repetative with your use of "Christmas" when foundering your way through problematic facts you can't handle in any other way - a little unimaginative.
Perhaps I can help with some variations – 'Christmas' was fairly popular in junior school, as was 'Lewis' (but I suppose literary references are a little out of your depth)
Why not try "Carroll is a girl's name" for a change – never failed to raise a smile.
Keep flag-wagging Territoon, Terpitude, Colonel Blimp, Chocolate Soldier, Bar-room brigadier, Colonel Chinstrap – whatever you prefer.
Comon boyp – show a little inventiveness – you have become rather childishly boring.   
Yours in anticipation
Christmas Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 11:47 AM

Sorry sciencegeek
I left my posting on the back-boiler for too long before I sent i without checking if anybody had intervened with an intelligent comment -hence the cross-posting.- my sentiments exactly
These discussions certainly bring them scurrying out of the woodwork
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 12:08 PM

Sciencegeek, I was not the one promoting the myth that Britain gained politically and economically from the disaster, nor did I infer that if they did it was done deliberately.

Problem lots of people in a confined and finite space are repeatedly suffering from food shortages and famines - The only solution is to get them to move, so as to prevent it happening again.

Odd in all the critics castigation there is no mention of landlords who not only paid passage for those evicted tenants but also bought land for them in Canada and in the USA. No mention of troops being sent out to ensure that eviction notices were adhered to refusing to do so on arrival and who as complete units returned to their barracks having left all their provisions with the people they had been sent there to see evicted.

No criticism leveled at the utter lack of assistance given to their parishioners by the Catholic Church in Ireland.

"those people were victims of discrimination coupled with a natural disaster that no one of that era was equipped to handle."

Precisely right across the board.

"There is no call to mock their plight."

Nobody is mocking their plight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 12:42 PM

this is the line I was responding to... if not yours, my apologies...
"I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."


regarding this"
Problem lots of people in a confined and finite space are repeatedly suffering from food shortages and famines - The only solution is to get them to move, so as to prevent it happening again."

Easier said than done... especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

Logistics is the "devil in the details" that hinders or prevents the implementation of most "solutions".   And since it is most unlikely that sex will become unpopular anytime soon, there is a critical need to reduce the population reproduction rate... the math is simple, but our ability to respond correctly is not looking good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

you have the statements of the historians

Only Nationalist historians Jim, who are a minority.

How is Kinealy my "star witness" except that she acknowledges that revisionist historians are the dominant view.
(Except on Mudcat obviously)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 02:22 PM

"Only Nationalist historians Jim, who are a minority."
Go and play while the adults are talking Keith - how many times have you been told that Christine Kinealy isn't a nationalist
"Nobody is mocking their plight."
"interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 04:27 PM

Christine Kinealy is a nationalist famine historian.
She attacks revisionists in her History Today essay that you copied.
She also explains the difference which you so struggle to understand.

You claim to be well read, but have you ever read a work by a revisionist who she is clear have the dominant position among historians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 03:42 AM

OK then sciencegeek take the two sentences that you seem to have taken exception to:

1: "I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom."

It was the contention of one poster that Great Britain had made economic and political capital out of the famine. As yet I am waiting a response that provides substantive evidence that Great Britain benefited in any manner at all - we do know that the relief effort mounted by the British Government cost them £9.95 million pounds.


2: "It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."

Depending on the perspective that statement is 100% correct - "Raised on songs and stories" - unfortunately all too true and most of them are wildly exaggerated I could make a list pointing out their historical inaccuracies but quite frankly I simply just cannot be bothered, one undisputed result of those songs being that they perpetuate hatred.


By all means take a look at and evaluate the options open to the "authorities" in 1845 - 1849 regarding the problem they faced:

"Problem lots of people in a confined and finite space are repeatedly suffering from food shortages and famines - The only solution is to get them to move, so as to prevent it happening again."

To which you came out with the statement - "Easier said than done... especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

First let us take your view that to move the people was "easier said than done". Well that is rather idiotic as that is exactly what did happen - IT WAS DONE.

Take a look at the alternative are you honestly trying to tell me that it would have been easier to:
a) Construct port facilities and dredge harbours
b) To build railroads
c) Build roads and bridges
d) Construct food storage and establish distribution networks

Are you completely mad? To undertake all that work so that people could stay where they were simply to suffer inevitable food shortages a few more years down the line? Who would provide the workforce let alone the skilled labour required? Idiotic. To move people means that the only problems you have to solve is to feed and shelter them on their way. To supply them with food you have to go through all of the above bringing in more people to actually do the work adding to the problem.

A simple exercise for you sciencegeek - what would it require to move one fully loaded wagon of food 30 miles and bring it back over poorly surfaced roads - I think the answer will stagger you (By the way remember that if a horse just eats grass or hay you get no work out of it so remember to that you must also carry food for the horses)

As for "especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet."

Your first two words render the rest irrelevant. I cannot understand how, or why you haven't picked up on it yet, but the NOW we are discussing are the years 1845 to 1851. But returning to your comment, I was not aware that the current "human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet".

"Logistics is the "devil in the details" that hinders or prevents the implementation of most "solutions".

Supports the points I have been attempting to make. The situation was unique and unparalleled in scale, there was nothing in place or worked out beforehand to cater with the situation as it developed. To put anything in place from scratch takes time, there is a learning curve and mistakes will definitely be made. Attempting to put forward the argument that things could be done as quickly in the 19th century as they can be in the 21st is ludicrous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

one undisputed result of those songs being that they perpetuate hatred.

As does the direction to Irish (and NY) schools to teach that Britain was culpable even though it can not be justified in the opinion of most historians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM

You wouldn't perchance be splitting hairs regarding the word culpable would you Keith?

It's just that it is beyond dispute that our forefathers were guilty of horrendous actions but under the law of the day, Parliament wouldn't be culpable.

Logic chopping. The last refuge of the terminally wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:24 AM

"Take a look at the alternative are you honestly trying to tell me that it would have been easier to..."
Yeah far "easier" to ship them off to America or allow them to starve - after all they were only a nations of indolent morons besotted with their "whining" patriotic songs - they deserved everything God bestowed on them (fascinating when the mask slips, isn't it?).
Britain under Russell chose to do nothing because it suited the Empire to cull a troublesome neighbour - the weevils in the breadbasket.
Starvation, locked warehouses, exploiting merchants, mass evictions...
Not worth a mention.
Cristmas Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:40 AM

Musket, I have no opinion but I note that most historians do not apportion blame.

I know you that think you know more about History than historians, but I do not join in your self-adulation and aggrandisement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 07:18 AM

"Musket, I have no opinion"
Yu have no knowledge either - how could you have without having never read a book?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:01 AM

"Take a look at the alternative are you honestly trying to tell me that it would have been easier to..."

"Yeah far "easier" to ship them off to America or allow them to starve - after all they were only a nations of indolent morons besotted with their "whining" patriotic songs - they deserved everything God bestowed on them (fascinating when the mask slips, isn't it?)." - your words Christmas - not mine

Well yes logically it is easier to move people from a place in which all they will ever be able to do is subsist and suffer, with ever increasing frequency, chronic food shortages and unemployment.

As to shipping them off to America? Another myth, the vast majority of those who emigrated from Ireland did not go to America they went to the British mainland, next most popular destination was Canada and thence to the USA. Very few sailed directly to the USA for reasons that Cecile Woodham-Smith explains very clearly.

I believe the whinging ballads written retrospectively came a lot later down the track.

As for them deserving "everything God bestowed on them" if you try to find out what the Roman Catholic Church did to help their parishioners you will discover that the view you express was widely held and believed by both the people themselves and the clergy. (In one case they regarded the blight as God's punishment for the college at Maynooth accepting grant money from the Government - Dr Paul Cullen, Rector of the Irish College in Rome. While in 1846 a Father Theobald Mathew, stated his opinion that the, "potato crop was no more than one wide waste of putrefying vegetation....due to Divine providence again pouring out upon us the vial of its wrath.")

This letter of Trevelyan's that you seem to like waving about like a flag yet seem unable to comprehend if indeed you have ever actually read it castigates the land owners, identifies the need to move people off the land so that agriculture can be reformed so that enough food can be grown and the population sustained.

Russell and the British Government did nothing!!! £9.5 million more than all other forms of aid received lumped together by quite a significant margin. That £9,500,000 would be the equivalent of £1,045,000,000 today, our last hand-out to the Irish Government amounted to £7,000,000,000 - you might knock it all you want, the one thing you cannot do is deny that it was ever given.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:31 AM

" chronic food shortages and unemployment"
Which is more or less what happened to them in America - plus extreme open racist abuse and eventually being enlisted into a Civil war which led to the slaughter of many thousands of them - where the **** do you think they went - the Land of Milk and Honey - Britain THE WEALTHIEST NATION ON THE PLANET WHITH INCREASING ADDITIONS TO ITS WEALTH AND POWER washed their hands of the Irish problem and ethically cleansed them out of Ireland.
The alternative was to continue and develop Peel's efforts - they stated categorically that Britain's economical interests must come first
You and your racist buddies choose to ignore that statement
The fact that other God Botherers shared Trevelyan's view is totally immaterial - it was the British government's responsibility to deal with it Peel tried to, Russell decided to throw the Irish to the wolves.
The Irish were systematically and unnecessarily driven out out Ireland because it suited the Empire - that is the fact of the matter.
You and Dozy Danny really have blown it "maudlin, idiot Irish" and him back to his "cultural implanted" Irish schoolchildren
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM

"To which you came out with the statement - "Easier said than done... especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

First let us take your view that to move the people was "easier said than done". Well that is rather idiotic as that is exactly what did happen - IT WAS DONE."

So the MILLIONS of people who starved to death IN IRELAND did so because they refused to go???? Ships lay empty in the harbors waiting for them??? Give me a break.

And just where were they supposed to go??? America and Canada had problems absorbing the number of Irish that did make it to their shores. And ignores the numbers of would be immigrants that were lost at sea in the infamous coffin ships.

Pardon me, but it is your assumptions that I am finding idiotic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 09:44 AM

"Are you completely mad? To undertake all that work so that people could stay where they were simply to suffer inevitable food shortages a few more years down the line? Who would provide the workforce let alone the skilled labour required? Idiotic. To move people means that the only problems you have to solve is to feed and shelter them on their way. To supply them with food you have to go through all of the above bringing in more people to actually do the work adding to the problem.

A simple exercise for you sciencegeek - what would it require to move one fully loaded wagon of food 30 miles and bring it back over poorly surfaced roads - I think the answer will stagger you (By the way remember that if a horse just eats grass or hay you get no work out of it so remember to that you must also carry food for the horses)"

And if you can remember that far back, my statement was basically that logistics would make or break any plan... and 1840's western nations were not prepared to handle such a natural disaster.

I also never even implied that shipping food was a viable option... I did opine that introducing rutabagas to the area at the start of the blight would have had better results than what was actually done. My reason for that is that it is not in the nightshad family, so immune to the blight and could be grown along with cabbages - similiar growing needs- and was similiar enough to turnips to be a familiar crop.

And since I actually raise livestock, I am acutely aware of the cost of fodder and what it takes to transport it. And anyone interested in the logistics of transporting supplies using horse & mule transport, should read about the horse in the American Civil War. I think there is also a dvd out on the subject.

You also have avoided the fact that food products were exported from Ireland during the famine... one can not help but be struck by the irony. That alone supports my assertion that there were those whose motives were more in profit than humanitarian efforts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 10:06 AM

"I was not aware that the current "human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet"."

neither are a goodly number of people who will not be very happy when it gets closer to home...

the critical word is "sustainable"... you might want to read up on population ecology. look closely at population doubling time and what can cause population crashes.

this was something I understood back in 1963 at the ripe out age of 12... my mistake was thinking that if a kid could figure it out, adults would be right on top of it.... sigh


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:39 AM

Right for a start sciencegeek - millions of people did not starve to death in Ireland - so can we leave the inaccurate, hysterical, emotive, histrionics at the door.

Main causes for the drop in the population of Ireland between 1841 and 1851
1: Emigration largest number
2: Disease and illness
3: Malnutrition

Total number taking all three into account was 1.3 million according to census information. The ratios being something like 4:1:1

The vast majority of those who left took the short journey across the Irish Sea to England and Scotland and that is where they stayed. The myth that they all clung onto the hulls of "coffin" ships and drifted across to the USA and Canada is total bullshit - just like the millions in aid that was supposed to have been sent by the Americans to help out. The greatest charitable contribution sent from the USA came from American Plains Indians NOT the American Irish.

Ah yes of course we should have imported rutabaga (swedes) for the starving Irish to feed on, now apart from the fact that they did not become common in mainland Britain until the 1900s I think might explain why this crop was not seized upon as a solution (It would have been 50 years too late) also you keep saying they could have used this or they could have used that but you keep dodging the point of how you actually get these items to where they were needed - hopefully at some juncture in this discussion you will get round to addressing this rather significant stumbling block.

Ah so we are not all on the point of starvation then - thought not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM

Keith. I have decided to call myself a historian.

Now address my point above please.

After all, you love quoting historians and advocating their view, even with your convenient get out clause of saying you aren't saying it.

Not much point in saying it then, is there? Everybody else seems to want to debate. Do you know what debate means? Really? I'm asking it in a genuine attempt to find out. It would answer so many questions ..,,,


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:50 AM

"human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet"

The current population is close to 8 billion, but that is not relavant to things that happened around 1850 when the world population was around 1.2 billion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

pardon me... ONLY approximately 1 million Irish died during the famine. Obviously they missed the boat over to Liverpool... because England was waiting to welcome them with open arms....

And I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality... "On August 4, 1847, The Toronto Globe reported on the arrival of emigrant ships: "The Virginius from Liverpool, with 496 passengers, had lost 158 by death, nearly one third of the whole, and she had 180 sick; above one half of the whole will never see their home in the New World."

The example I used is based a friend's family history... they waited weeks for the ship their relatives were on to arrive in New York. It was never heard from again.

I'm stealing this from NOVA... "the human population growth curve is currently following an exponential curve or a "J-shape". Common sense tells us that such growth cannot continue - otherwise within a few hundred years every square foot of the Earth's surface would be taken up by a human. Furthermore, experience with other species tells us that, ultimately, resource limitations and/or habitat degradation will force the human population curves to approach an upper limit or asymptote - the carrying capacity, often symbolized as " K" by ecologists. It is very natural to ask the linked questions - does humanity have a carrying capacity and, if so, what is it - and when will we reach or overshoot this limit?"

Good question... and if the world population doubles in a single generation, it's vulnerability to famine increases. Do the math... Malthus did.

Climate change and land use decisions may diminish the earth's carrying capacity even faster. The reason why food was exported from Ireland is partly because England's change from an agrarian to industrial was taking place at the same time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM

"human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet"

The current population is close to 8 billion, but that is not relavant to things that happened around 1850 when the world population was around 1.2 billion.

Agreed... but only to the extent that humans on the whole had options - if they weren't squimish about displacing other people or exploiting new habitats. I threw that in as an aside because the issue of more mouths to feed than food to feed them is not confined to history... it is an on-going fact... not some abstract concept to be ignored. However, the Irish were living on an island, not wealthy and not in a position to pack up and leave at the drop of a hat. Plus they, or anyone else for that matter, had no way of knowing that this blight would far more devastating than any previously encountered. Experience isn't always the best teacher... because there is always that new experience to be had.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:36 PM

oh... sorry - before some nit picker goes on about "not every Irishman was poor".. I will qualify that the Irish who suffered the worst because of the blight (you know them)... were the ones with limited options.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 02:15 PM

ONLY approximately 1 million Irish died during the famine.

Oh, well, that's all right then, innit, T-Bird?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

And that's circa 1 million that died IN IRELAND- doesn't count those emigrants that tried to escape the Famine & died on ships or in other countries from famine-induced diseases & etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM

I find it "interesting" that my "Introducing rutabagas would have worked better in the early years of the blight... imho." got transmuted into importing rutabagas for food...   

Since it was recorded as being present in the royal gardens in England as early as 1669 and was described in France in 1700, it was an unexplored option for an alternative crop. It may lack the higher caloric value of potatoes, but is high in nutrition and easy to cultivate. And for your information, introducing a crop is done by providing seed or root stock/cuttings so that it can be cultivated in the area of interest.   

So your snarky response was to a statement fabricated in you own mind.... "Ah yes of course we should have imported rutabaga (swedes) for the starving Irish to feed on, now apart from the fact that they did not become common in mainland Britain until the 1900s I think might explain why this crop was not seized upon as a solution (It would have been 50 years too late) also you keep saying they could have used this or they could have used that but you keep dodging the point of how you actually get these items to where they were needed - hopefully at some juncture in this discussion you will get round to addressing this rather significant stumbling block."

The REAL stumbling block is having people so wedded to defending their own positions that they blind themselves to alternatives. Can anyone acknowledge that this is not a black and white issue? That honest mistakes were made along with callus indifference on the part of others? This need to make ogres or saints and simplistic answers, when the reality is far more complex.

Here on Mudcat we spar & trade snarky comments, along with some downright obnoxious remarks... better than using suicide bombers to make your point, but equally unproductive.

Here in the US, there are those regard the less fortunate as parasites ... our treatment of the native population was nothing to be proud of... but there are still those who think it was "noble".

Human nature is a combination of traits that can be very positive or very negative and it was human beings and their actions/inactions during the potato blight that is being "debated/argued over" in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 06:33 PM

you can't really separate the malnutrition and the disease...Irish, despite the no food but potato and no drink but water were remarkably healthy and strong, tis said. Starving people can not attend to the most basic sanitation for example. A disease that someone would shrug off in good health would kill a famished person.

And the whole census thing must be looked at. Lots and lots were undocumented in their own country. They came out of the woodwork under some circumstances. Do you think the outlaws in the Galtee ?? mountains were censized?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM

Census figures put the population of Ireland in 1841 at 8.2 million. The Census for 1851 tallied 6.9 million. That marks a drop in population of 1.3 million and that number is not solely down to the decrease due to the famine it also includes those who died of natural causes unconnected to the famine - True?

Nowhere even remotely close to 1 million died - we do know with a fair degree of certainty that approximately 1 million people did emigrate

There might have been people not included in the censuses but it would be highly unlikely to extend to as much as 12.5% of the total population - that sort of number would be noticeable in a predominantly rural community, they have to have shelter, they have to burn cooking fires and they have to eat. The contention that a hitherto unheard of and unknown mass of 1 million Irishmen, women and children crept out of the woodwork to die just to stick it to the Brits is downright laughable. If you want to introduce the factor of "woolly" numbers then do so accepting the fact that it must be recognised that those inaccuracies work both ways.

Of course sciencegeek swedes were known about in the late 1600s and early 1700s "they were described in France" question is pal, who was actually cultivating them as a crop? - In the UK we know with absolute certainty that that didn't happen until the early 1900s - again True? So what on earth makes you think that, all of a sudden, growing swedes would immediately spring to mind as a solution to a potato blight that struck in the mid 1800s? Who would have come up with the idea? Who would have the necessary knowledge regarding this crop, who among the starving Irish would know what to do with it? Who would they have suggested it to? Who would have acted on it? Just how long would it have taken to mass the number of plants required (IF you could get them - Remember the blight hit Europe as well), ship them to Ireland, distribute them, then plant and grow them to the stage where they would have been of any benefit.

I am sorry once more you seem to blithely skate over the detail, ignore all the very real problems to offer up a totally unworkable solution then castigate the authorities for not following that through - Just try getting your head round the fact that in Ireland in the 1840s they couldn't even harvest and transport crops grown in Ireland to the west of their own country. They had a hard enough time transporting and distributing ground corn to centres of population. That was the reality that the authorities had to deal with and nobody anywhere in the world had ever had to deal with something on this scale before - personally I believe that they deserve being cut a bit of slack on that point.

" I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality"

I am sorry to disappoint you but the term "Coffin Ship" although associated with the transport of emigrants from both Scotland and Ireland has got nothing whatsoever to do with "the deplorable conditions" of the passengers onboard. It is an insurance term meaning any ship that has been overinsured and is therefore worth more to its owners sunk than afloat.

"The REAL stumbling block is having people so wedded to defending their own positions that they blind themselves to alternatives. Can anyone acknowledge that this is not a black and white issue? That honest mistakes were made along with callus indifference on the part of others? This need to make ogres or saints and simplistic answers, when the reality is far more complex."

The only people wedded to defending their own positions are those who are stubbornly clinging to the myth that the Potato Famine in Ireland was all a deliberate plot engineered by Great Britain.

Example: "Britain THE WEALTHIEST NATION ON THE PLANET WITH INCREASING ADDITIONS TO ITS WEALTH AND POWER washed their hands of the Irish problem and ethically cleansed them out of Ireland."

I am sorry but that is complete and utter crap. It is complete and utter crap that does not even stand up to even the most cursory examination.

a) Great Britain was certainly ONE OF the wealthiest nations on the planet and in response to the situation in Ireland, Great Britain provided more in terms of aid and relief than every other source of aid donated combined by a factor of about three - the exact statistics are given in Cecile Woodham-Smith's book "The Great Hunger". Great Britain also received and absorbed the largest number of emigrants from Ireland.

b) By the mid 1800s the British Empire had started to go into decline and the Empire was actually costing Great Britain money according to historian and economist Niall Ferguson - so much for "INCREASING ADDITIONS TO ITS WEALTH AND POWER"

c) Had Great Britain really "washed their hands of the Irish problem" it would have been cheaper for them to simply sit back and do nothing, just as the American Irish did, just as the Roman Catholic Church did, just as the Irish land owners did.

I am the only one here arguing the case that it wasn't some fiendish and deliberate plot. I am arguing the case that it was not a black and white issue. I am arguing the case that mistakes were made. The only thing is neither yourself or the likes of GregF and Christmas Carroll can be arsed to actually debate - you merely attack. Take your viewpoint as an example. God knows how many times I have now asked you just how things could have been done to feed the people in situ, reform their farming practices so that the next famine would not just be a few more years down the line - So far you have refused point blank to address those questions offering up instead alternative solutions that would have been impossible to implement at the time - YOU then stubbornly defend those impracticable solutions.

So just one last time. I do not care what the food is, I do not give a toss what the relief is - it could be Chinese take away for all I care.

How do you transport it to the people in situ? Taking into account that you have:
- No ports to ship in whatever it is that is required
- No storage facilities to hold these supplies
- No distribution network
- No roads suitable for large wagons, very few large wagons
- No fodder for horses, very few horses for that matter

While you are sorting all this out people are malnourished so they cannot work and people are dying. In this situation there is only ONE THING you can do that will be of immediate effect - you must move the people to where you can get relief to them, if they will not move voluntarily then they must be induced to move or they will surely die.

My only experience of anything like this was in 1970 the Bhola Cyclone that swept up the Bay of Bengal and struck East Pakistan killing 500,000 people - According to the New York Times "It remains the deadliest tropical cyclone ever recorded, and one of the deadliest natural disasters in modern times.". The cyclone struck on the 12th November. Aid and relief efforts were drastically hindered by the situation between India and Pakistan - it took some 10 days before real intervention began, the Royal Navy sent the Amphibious Assault Ship HMS Intrepid and the Heavy Repair Ship HMS Triumph (ex-Fleet Aircraft Carrier). We arrived 12 days after the cyclone had struck, but we had flown advanced parties ahead to do the recces for us. We had 650 men, we had helicopters and we had landing craft to distribute food and materials, to land portable generators and to build shelters. In HMS Triumph we had our own fabrication facility that could damn near make anything mechanical or electrical we required, we had technicians who could be flown ashore to repair anything that required repair. The survivors we found were in a state of depression and total apathy, they had to be bullied into movement and action just in order to save themselves, otherwise they would have just squatted where they were until they died. Initially they could not be bothered to move a couple of hundred yards to where food and shelter were. Once they knew that there was food and shelter available the men could then be organised into teams to assist in the search and rescue, relief operations and clear up (Bodies being the greatest risk and health hazard - but once again the only option was to move the people in order to save them. One of the Pakistani Naval Officers acting as our Liaison Officer commented as the effort wound down, "Until the next time" When asked about it he said that the people accepted the cyclones and tidal surges as a fact of life, they would gradually steal back to places that they knew full well were dangerous, because those places were easier to farm and to fish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:34 AM

"you must move the people to where you can get relief to them, if they will not move voluntarily then they must be induced to move or they will surely die."
Which is pretty much the exact opposite of what they did in Ireland - they drove them out and left them to fend for themselves in hostile environments
Presenting British (in)action as altruism is as stupid as it gets.
It's not even as if those left behind were assisted in any way - they were left to the mercies of 'the free market' - exploiting predatory merchants and evicting landlords.
It is difficult to find anything other than regional figures of evictions but when a police estimate calculated that 250,000 people had been evicted between 1849 and 1854 - they had started several years ealier than that and continued to the end of the century.
A summing up of the attitude towards tenants who were unable to pay their rents was summed up fairly neatly in this:
"West Clare was one of the worst areas for evictions, where landlords turned thousands of families out and demolished their derisory cabins. Captain Kennedy in April 1848 estimated that 1,000 houses, with an average of six people to each, had been levelled since November. The Mahon family, Strokestown House alone in 1847 evicted 3,000 people, and according to John Gibney were still able to dine on lobster soup.
After Clare, the worst area for evictions was County Mayo, accounting for 10% of all evictions between 1849 and 1854. The Earl of Lucan, who owned over 60,000 acres (240 km2) was among the worst evicting landlords. He was quoted as saying 'he would not breed paupers to pay priests'. Having turned out in the parish of Ballinrobe over 2,000 tenants alone, the cleared land he then used as grazing farms. In 1848, the Marquis of Sligo owed £1,650 to Westport Union; he was also an evicting landlord, though he claimed to be selective, saying he was only getting rid of the idle and dishonest. Altogether, he cleared about 25% of his tenants."
Repatriation - rebuilding, famine relief.
Sure it was!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:22 AM

once again, words have been put into my mouth....

and apples have been compared to oranges to reach the "obvious" conclusion that their position is "right" and all others "wrong".

A century before the Potato Blight, Jonathan Swift felt compelled to write "A Modest Proposal". A response to prevailing attitudes about Ireland and the Irish poor. Many made poor by discriminatory laws imposed by a "foreign" government. This is the historical background that laid the groundwork upon which later events took place.

I find that the "obvious solution" championed by Teribus to be remarkably similar to that used in America. Take away the land from the current inhabitants and then when they persist in trying to retain their way of life, find a way to remove them completely... or at least to somewhere that you have no use for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:28 AM

here are some links to a more scholarly examination of the Irish Famine than what is currently occupying this thread.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/sadlier/irish/rwhyte.htm

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/sadlier/irish/Famine.htm

"Census figures put the population of Ireland in 1841 at 8.2 million. The Census for 1851 tallied 6.9 million. That marks a drop in population of 1.3 million and that number is not solely down to the decrease due to the famine it also includes those who died of natural causes unconnected to the famine - True?"

oh... and comparing the census data from 1841 to 1851 is as meaningful as the answer 42 in the Hitchhiker's Guide.

Two data points without context is absurd... and no population biologist would ignore reproductive rates along with migration (both in and out) and mortality when positing their conclusions. Because your statement is only valid if in that entire decade no children were born or died... not the way I would bet.

Populations are not static... that is why you need to apply statistical tools with well defined assumptions... not "simple arithmatic". That only is valid to support the statement that the change in population is from this to that... and useless to expalin the "why" for the change.   

The 1841 figure includes all those born and still alive at the time of the census taking. And children born subsequently are only tallied if still alive and living in the census area. You need to know the reproductive rate of the studied population to infer approximate numbers... or hope that the birth/baptismal and death/burial records of that period exist and are reasonably accurate... to support a statement regarding just how many individuals perished or migrated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM

"I am the only one here arguing the case that it wasn't some fiendish and deliberate plot. I am arguing the case that it was not a black and white issue. I am arguing the case that mistakes were made."

I agree only to the fact that you are arguing... with me and everyone else.

I make a statement to the effect that no one in that period was equipped to deal with the results caused by the potato blight and that logistics can make or break any relief plan... and you attack me for "ignoring" logistically problems???? You come across as a pompus jackass more in love with their own voice than interested in listening to others... or making a positive contribution to a discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:19 AM

"Are you completely mad? To undertake all that work so that people could stay where they were simply to suffer inevitable food shortages a few more years down the line? Who would provide the workforce let alone the skilled labour required? Idiotic."

No more idotic than building the "famine walls"... many still standing today.

"At the same time a board of works would embark on a massive new road construction programme to provide employment for the rural poor - this eventually culminated in the much despised 'famine walls' built up throughout the country, but particularly in the hills and mountains of the west of Ireland, where walls were built solely to provide work to peasants in return for food. More often than not these stone walls provided no economic or infrastructural benefit, but were built anyway."

Is this some form of "My country right or wrong." issue? You can be proud of your nation and still acknowledge the fact that nations are run by people... and not always nice or good ones at that.

I can be proud of the good things done by America and still accept the fact that slavery existed, the native population was exploited and exterminated in many cases and that we have had robber barons and yellow journalists creating war fever. The list goes on... right now it includes the Tea Party and the Conservative Right... to be replaced by others in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:46 AM

Ah sciencegeek I didn't know that tin the USA you have a full census every year. In the UK we run them every ten years, and I hate to be so simplistic but if at one census the the population is detailed as being X and then ten years later the census gives the figure a X-Y then I know that over the course of that decade the population has dropped, and it gives me the number by which it has dropped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:05 AM

right now it includes the Tea Party and the Conservative Right... to be replaced by others in the future.

And the sooner the better. Ditto the Tories.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:15 AM

we have a census each decade, and even today must acknowledge that they are not 100 percent accurate.

HOWEVER... we use the data to establish the number of elected representatives to be assigned to each state or commonwealth and for guidance in deployment of federal aid.

IT IS NOT USED TO SUPPORT STATEMENTS REGARDING DEATH OR MIGRATION RATES OR TOTAL NUMBERS!

And THAT is my objection to your statement... "That marks a drop in population of 1.3 million and that number is not solely down to the decrease due to the famine it also includes those who died of natural causes unconnected to the famine - True?" because you are using it in the context of defending your figure for how many Irish died during the Potato Famine.


Once again ... comparing apples to oranges as if there is any meaning to be found. So keep your snark to yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:37 PM

I do not believe there was a fiendish plot to perpetuate the famine and cleanse the Irish. I think there was a combination of a natural disaster, overpopulation, overdependence (by fiat, not by choice of Irish) on one crop, poor logistics, delayed understanding of the extent of the problem, religious barriers, people taking advantage of religious considerations, dire threats to the survival of the landlords too, weather that made it all worse, total lack of infrastructure in places, etc.....I think that some people..English people..tried very hard to set some things in motion. ONe was to use money that had been reserved for draining land to put people to work doing something that would lead to actual food rather than building roads to nowhere and disrupting present roads. There was a big plan to send a huge number of people to Canada that was considered. Some landlords did all that they could; some were horrible; some had no resources themselves. Some landlords were called to Parliament to explain their actions during the famine.

There could very well be two definitions of coffin ships but the Irish call them by that name referring to the death that took place on them during emigration...it is a very common name that everyone almost of Irish descent knows.

Irish were luckier in some respects than the Ukrainian sufferers..at least the landlords wanted them gone. The serfs of Ukraine were kept there to starve..and if you want to see what your Irish ancestors probably looked like, you can google pictures and videos and interviews of still living survivors of the Ukrainian famine..hodolomor???

It is a complex mess that has been and probably will be repeated throughout the world. To me a sustainable population, with sustainable agriculture, combined with relief efforts combined with the natural efficiency of free markets and charity are things that need to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:49 PM

One of the problems in discussing the Famine is that unless you are Irish and/or live in Ireland, you are not talking about history - something that happened a century and a half or so ago - how the famine was handled changed Ireland socially and culturally.
I have lived here for fifteen years and have collected songs and social history in this area for 40 years.
I cannot think of a single family that has net been effected by emigration.
I sat in a music session last night and realised that there was not one person in the pub who had not worked abroad at one time or another.
I've just annotated our collection of 400+ songs, a large percentage of them locally made emigration songs, not harking back to the Famine, but reflecting the period from 1850 to the present day. New songs are still being composed; a Country and Western singer in Connemara is composing emigration songs in Irish to reflect was is happening there today "whining dirges, no doubt!.
Because of the way the Famine was mishandled (some believe deliberately) Ireland was never able to recover it (if this is true, think of the consequences if Ireland had been forced to participate in the W.W.1, obscenity, as was intended).
Nobody is claiming that all this is entirely the fault of Britain; Irish political incompetence and corruption added to an already unsolvable problem.
Britain's two great legacies to Ireland were Immigration and sectarian conflict - the Celtic Tiger was a bit of a miracle really, but the bankers and politicians managed to kick that one to death fairly efficiently.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:51 PM

very interesting points raised, Jim

since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships, the Irish famine victims among them, I live in a state with a fairly large Irish population. I would like to point out also that the middle 19th century was the second wave from Ireland... 1799 saw quite a few who came over for "health reasons"... it being very unhealthy to stay after the failed rebellion. My father-in-law's family are descended from one such fellow who settled in Lake Placid.

And we live within 50 miles of the Erie Canal... renowned for the large Irish workforce involved in its construction. Many of the Irish descendants make at least one trip to Ireland in their lifetimes. And not a few of my folk music friends are Irish or Anglo-Irish that have become naturalized citizens, as well as those from England and Scotland. I have to say.. they all get along far better than some of us here on Mudcat.

In America, two of our early presidents were also deeply committed to improvements to agriculture and that legacy had a lasting effect on our country. That same period in time saw many of the arguably brightest & best, potentially natural leaders in Ireland to be lost - either executed, deported or fled. I have to ponder an alternate reality where these people were able to stay in Ireland and how they would have responded to the challenge of the blight...


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:10 AM

Keith. I have decided to call myself a historian.
Now address my point above please.


When I talk of historians, I mean people whose profession has been the study of the period.
You can call yourself anything you like, and you do, but it does not make it true.

What is true is that many historians find there is no case for blame over this catastrophe.
What is also true is that their's is the dominant view and has been for a very long time.
Many people have a vested interest in keeping hate alive, and are prepared to use false History to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:31 AM

Very good post mg probably the best summation in the entire thread.

"since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships"

Another dearly clung to MYTH - I would refer you to Cecile Woodham-Smith's definitive work on "The Great Hunger" in which she explains the criteria required for those wishing to take direct passage to the ports on the eastern seaboard of the United States of America as opposed to those sailing to Canada. Greatest point of entry into the United States of America during the period we are discussing was Chicago, those people having landed in Canada, travelled up the St. Lawrence and over the Great Lakes.

Previously sciencegeek you mentioned two "Coffin Ships", one which sailed to Canada and the other that sailed to New York:

" "The Virginius from Liverpool, with 496 passengers, had lost 158 by death, nearly one third of the whole, and she had 180 sick; above one half of the whole will never see their home in the New World."

The example I used is based a friend's family history... they waited weeks for the ship their relatives were on to arrive in New York. It was never heard from again."


Now then in all honesty with 20 x 20 hindsight I can tell you which ship I would have preferred to have sailed in.

On the "Virginius" any idea of how many of those passengers who boarded the ship brought the sickness with them? Of the second if the ship was on direct passage to New York it would not have been permitted to enter port with sickness onboard, it would have been compelled to remain offshore, or it could divert to Canada, which most of the ships caught in this predicament did - "Give me your sick and needy indeed", fine words pity nobody in the US actually at the time lived up to them - Canada to her credit did. The other more obvious reason as to why the ship was "never heard of again" was that she foundered - I think sciencegeek you would be amazed at the number of sailing ships that did do just that, the percentage was staggering (Something like between 20% to 30% - in the pre-Plimsoll Line days two routes with the worst reputation were Cape Horn of course and the North Atlantic run, there was a very good reason for there being a specific load line for Winter North Atlantic)

Now I will give you the name of another of your "Coffin Ships" - "The three masted Barque the "Jeannie Johnstone", 154 ft long, built in 1848 and owned by two Merchants from Tralee. Between 1848 and 1855 she made 16 voyages carrying emigrants to Canada and to America - the numbers carried depended on her destination varying between 193 and 254 - in all that time not one single passenger died. She was a trading vessel taking people to the new world and bringing timber back, so vessel turn round time was important so the Jeannie Johnstone carried a doctor, as did other "Coffin Ships". Jeannie Johnstone was lost crossing the Atlantic with a load of timber in 1858, she became waterlogged and her crew climbed and clung to the rigging as their ship slowly sank beneath them - the crew were rescued by a Dutch ship - Jeannie Johnstone maintained her perfect safety record right to the end" A replica of the ship was built and launched on the 6th May 2000, today it is moored on the River Liffey in Dublin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:19 AM

The Westminster government of the day and their reaction to the famine was debated in a training course I attended in safeguarding children and vulnerable adults a few years ago.

Basically, on the premise that the government felt they couldn't interfere with market forces, or Adam Smith philosophy as it was, we were asked to debate whether their reaction would constitute abuse. The answer the guy was looking for was yes.

Abuse by neglect.

By pressing "submit message " and having my post analysed by Keith, that makes me a historian. I might put it on my cv. Beer doesn't buy itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:47 AM

Do not sell yourself short Musket.
Not just a historian, but a fucking important historian!
Right?
And obviously you know much more about History than those mere professional and academic historians.
"Those historians should know better" as you are want to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:00 AM

The transportation of Famine refugees was treated (as was emigration itself) as a business enterprise - a cheap, convenient way of ridding Ireland of its undesirables and unsustainables.
Some of the ships were custom built, most were hastily adapted from cargo vessels, grain, timber and metal carriers - some had previously been slave carriers - and the accommodation showed that.
You only need step on board the Dunbrodie at New Ross or the Jeannie Johnson to confirm this - I think the Dunbrodie has only a couple of cabins - the rest is made up of open bunks closed off by curtains.
This from the excellent 'The Famine Ships' by Edward Laxton (1996)

"For ship owners, captains, crews and agents, this sudden increase in the passenger trade all the year round, was very welcome. Whereas in previous years they had operated a lucrative three-sided business - timber, iron, tools, salt and varied cargo down to West Africa; slaves out to America; cotton, tobacco, wheat and provisions back to Europe -outward-bound passages had been losing money. The Na¬poleonic Wars had ended around the turn of the century, completely upsetting the balance of trade in Europe. In particular, the price of timber had soared five-fold: the forests of Canada had more than enough wood to satisfy demand in Europe, and it was cheaper to buy there and ship it home. It was cheaper still if cargo could be found for the westward crossings and once again the human cargo, emi¬grants instead of slaves, provided the answer. Within a year or two it would provide more revenue than Canadian timber sailing eastwards.
Five thousand ships sailed across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants in the six years of the Famine Emigration. They were diverse in size, safety and comfort, or the lack of it, and they varied in many other respects - in age and in the experience and quality of their crews, their speed on the voyage, provisions on board, and the fares they charged.
American packet ships of more than 1,000 tons, with triple-decks were built in the late 1840s specifically for the emigrant trade. They would carry more than 400 passengers, some in private cabins. But by no means all the ships were custom-built. When the British Queen first put to sea in 1785 she needed several major repairs before she could carry passengers on regular voyages from Liverpool to New York. And when the Elizabeth and Sarah achieved infamy in the fever year of 1847, she had been at sea for 83 years.
Undoubtedly, many of the Famine ships would have carried African slaves in the early years of the 19th cen¬tury. The European slave traders finally ended their activities barely a dozen years before the onset of the Famine and the Arab slavers continued to ply well into the 1860s.
There were tiny vessels like The Hannah with a crew of six and measuring only 59 feet - about the same length as four family cars parked bumper-to-bumper. She was converted from a coaster by the addition of a third mast to enable her to go into deeper waters, and sailed to New York five times, from Dublin, Cork and Limerick, with a complement of only 50 or 60 passengers crammed below in a single hold.
These Irish men and women were not always welcome on arrival in their new homeland, for this desperate migration represented cheap labour, a threat to the established Amer¬ican workforce. But they dug canals, built roads and laid railways, they became seamstresses and servants.
The alternative was to stay at home and starve. A meal, a job, a place to rest, a chance to survive was all the Famine emigrants asked. They left Ireland by sailing ship every day, summer and winter, for six years while the Famine lasted, to make the 3,000 mile journey across the Atlantic Ocean."

"When I talk of historians"
You have no knowledge which qualifies you to talk about historians - you have never read one of their books - you've already told us that.
Between the pair of you, your combined knowledge is representative of 'The Bernard Manning School of Celtic Studies' and apparently coming from the same place.
Historians have never been in doubt as to what caused the catastrophe rising from the Blight - the policy of the Russell Government as interpreted by Trevelyan
As Kinealy points out, for various revisionist reasons that have never discussed who was to blame in detail - she and her fellow historians are now doing so.
The bad news is that you are going to have to actually read what they have to say rather than carefully select out-of-context and distorted snippets to back up a long-held prejudice.
That's what knowledge is all about.
In the meantime, your pompous pronouncements are of little more than entertainment value.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:05 AM

"since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships"

Another dearly clung to MYTH"

what the heck is wrong with you???? once again, you have altered what I said... "since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships, the Irish famine victims among them, I live in a state with a fairly large Irish population." and then proceed to argue with what I supposedly said. I also went to state that there had been more than one influx of Irish refugees.

and have you never heard of Ellis Island? I give you a quote from our National Park site...

Ellis Island opened in 1892 as a federal immigration station, a purpose it served for more than 60 years (it closed in 1954). Millions of newly arrived immigrants passed through the station during that time–in fact, it has been estimated that close to 40 percent of all current U.S. citizens can trace at least one of their ancestors to Ellis Island.

There is an online list of names of those who passed through the station... and that is only since 1892... ships have been bringing settlers to New York since it was under Dutch control in the 1600's
If that isn't a major port... what is? New York City is noted for it's ethnic neighborhoods... the result of the many varied immigrant groups that landed in NY and never left.

I fear that you are deluded if you think that citing a single case where there was no loss of life negates the fact that many ships carrying Irish immigrants suffered high mortality... apples and oranges once again...

and if you think I have no idea what happened to the ship that was lost... well, you are just demonstrating what a pompous ass you must be.

kindly remove your head from your anal sphincter... it will give you a clearer view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM

oh... maybe I should mention that both my great grandfather and my grandfather had their captains papers...

Jesse Williams skippered small coastal vessels along the eastern seaboard. My grandfather, George, was an able bodied seaman on coastal steamers, but after his third shipwreck worked the Steel Pier in Atlantic City to raise enough money to buy his own boat... which he ran for almost 40 years out of Cape May NJ... taking out day fishing parties. One of the first to do so... and not bad for a guy who lost his right arm when he was a kid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:41 AM

I'm not a fucking important historian. I am merely fucking important.

Do keep up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM

You have no knowledge which qualifies you to talk about historians

The only knowledge I claim is that many historians do not support the version of events you have posted at enormous length.
That is the truth and you can not deny it.

Kinealy is not one of those but she concedes she is in a minority.
That is the truth and you can not deny it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:33 AM

Anybody interested in the details of the migrations really should get hold of Terry Coleman's seminal work on the subject 'Passage to America' - he's done as excellent study of the subject as his did on the Navvies - indispensable.
As excellent as Mrs Woodham Smith's book is, it if far too thinly spread to be relied on for detail.
Keith has told us she is a "revisionist" so nothing she wrote can be trusted anyway - and he should know!!
A quote from Coleman's book from a contemporary source:
"Before the emigrant has been a week at sea he is an altered man. How can it be otherwise? Hundreds of poor people, men, women, and children, of all ages, from the drivelling idiot of ninety to the babe just born, huddled together without light, without air. wallowing in filth and breathing a fetid atmosphere, sick in body, dispirited in heart, the fevered patients lying between the sound, in sleeping places so narrow as almost to deny them the power of indulging, by a change of position, the natural restlessness of the disease; by their agonized ravings disturbing those around, and predisposing them, through the effects of the imagination, to imbibe the contagion; living without food or medicine, except as administered by the hand of casual charity,dying without the voice of spiritual consolation, and buried in the deep without the rites of the church."
Coleman devotes an entire chapter to the brutal treatment meted out by the ships crews to Emigrants.

"That is the truth and you can not deny it."
You have never read a single book by a single historian so you cannot possibly know what any of their opinions are - you cannot deny that
I can deny what I choose and you would have no grounds for contradiction other than your pre-conceived bigotry.
Interesting that Kinealy has now been relegated to a "minority" rather than in the hallowed ranks of your "all historians" though - amazing what the presentation of a few facts can do.
Go read a book
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:57 AM

Hate to point this out to you but the period currently under discussion is that between 1845 and 1851!!! So WFT has Ellis Island which opened in 1892 got to do with anything. What your grand-sires did or did not do bears no relevance to the subject under discussion.

New York was NOT a major destination for immigrant ships in the period under discussion - if it had been then all those immigrants would have had to have proved the following before even embarking in Ireland or England:

- That they were in good health
- That they were not Chinese
- That they had goods or hard currency to the value of £20
- That they would not be a financial burden to the port or community they landed in.

It was because of those criteria that the vast majority of Irish emigrants who crossed the Atlantic to escape the famine sailed to ports in Canada where none of the above applied. It was then extremely easy for them to cross the land border from Canada into the USA as again none of the above conditions applied.

"I fear that you are deluded if you think that citing a single case where there was no loss of life negates the fact that many ships carrying Irish immigrants suffered high mortality... apples and oranges once again..."

Ah but somehow it is perfectly rational and reasonable in your view for you to cite two examples to argue that 75% of those who made the crossing died. The truth of the matter is - Did people die whilst on passage - YES they did - Did they die in vast numbers? - No they did not when compared to the number that landed and went on to settle in both Canada and the United States of America. Did the British Government deliberately and with intent put those people on ships to die in droves? No they did not, they did not put anybody on ships period - that was the personal decision of the individual. What ship they boarded and what destination they selected were entirely up to the people wishing to emigrate themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:01 AM

"I'm not a fucking important historian. I am merely fucking important." - Musket

Not to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:32 AM

"So WFT has Ellis Island which opened in 1892 got to do with anything."
The subject under discussion is The Irish potato blight
The effects of that blight lasted from 1845 to the present day - that's WTF our fiend's comments have to do with the discussion, but on the other hand - when in doubt, bluster and bully your way out.
You talk about whatever you wish Terrytoon - the rest of us will discuss the subject in hand
"Not to me."
nd you, not to anybody else other than yourself.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:35 AM

"our fiend's comments"
And before you try to capitalise on typos - that is exactly what they were
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM

For Keith - from Neilson - another "minority" view from one of your own historians
Jim Carroll
"The Famine was the greatest calamity in Irish history. People needlessly died due to cold-hearted indifference and the elevation of the market above the lives of people. Nowhere near enough aid was given as prejudice won out over compassion. Laissez faire turned into Leave them to die."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:50 AM

An authority on merchant ships of the 19th Century now are we Christmas?

"The transportation of Famine refugees was treated (as was emigration itself) as a business enterprise - a cheap, convenient way of ridding Ireland of its undesirables and unsustainables."

Really? Who was it treated as a business by? Perhaps by ship owners and those importing timber into Great Britain but not by the British Government.

"Some of the ships were custom built, most were hastily adapted from cargo vessels, grain, timber and metal carriers - some had previously been slave carriers - and the accommodation showed that."

I would say that most fell into the category of those hastily adapted as they could be likewise hastily re-adapted to carrying a cargo back from either Canada or America – Ship owners are funny that way they prefer not to have their ships running about the world's seas and oceans in ballast. If the ships were British flagged vessels then very few of them would have ever been slavers by the mid 1800s (Slave Trade Act 1807 prohibited British ships from carrying slaves).

"You only need step on board the Dunbrodie at New Ross or the Jeannie Johnson to confirm this - I think the Dunbrodie has only a couple of cabins - the rest is made up of open bunks closed off by curtains."

And that Christmas had been the bog standard way of creating cabins in Merchant vessels for hundreds of years. If you go onboard HMS Victory your notice will be drawn to the fact that ALL accommodation was temporary – even Lord Nelson's. Merchant vessels had to carry cargo and were designed for that purpose and warships were designed so that they could be fought by their crews and the only space allocated on their decks was for guns, pumps, capstans and rigging.

I can see from your quoted excerpt why you deem Edward Laxton's book a work of such excellence. It conforms to your prejudices.

One wonders why the good Mr. Laxton didn't fasten on the voyage of the Virginius related to us by sciencegeek – that made the voyage of the "Elizabeth and Sarah" look like a pleasure cruise.

"Five thousand ships sailed across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants in the six years of the Famine Emigration. They were diverse in size, safety and comfort, or the lack of it, and they varied in many other respects - in age and in the experience and quality of their crews, their speed on the voyage, provisions on board, and the fares they charged."

And what Mr Laxton fails to mention, rather conveniently for Christmas's point of view, is that most of those ships landed the vast majority of those who travelled in them safely on the shores of either Canada or America.

"Undoubtedly, many of the Famine ships would have carried African slaves in the early years of the 19th century. "

Not if they were British ships. I believe that even the Americans prohibited the building or fitting out of slavers at round about the same time (1807).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:53 AM

One of my own?
I have none, and I never claimed an "all historian" agreement.

I did point out that your vast acreages of posts were just one version of events.
I did point out that there was disagreement among historians, and that is the undeniable truth.
Kinealy has said that revisionists are the dominant view and have been for nearly ninety years.
That too is an undeniable truth, so what exactly are you accusing me of?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:57 AM

"The effects of that blight lasted from 1845 to the present day"

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA - Utterly derisible

I shudder to thing of your views on the Great Flood, the Black Death, and the Mongol Hordes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: kendall
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:03 AM

I doubt that anyone will care, but I've been on a long leave from Mudcat, and today I checked in out of boredom, and as usual, the name calling is still here.
It's one of the reasons I left.
All this vitriolic crap about something that took place 150 years ago is pretty petty compared to what is going on in OUR lifetime.
Adios


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:17 AM

"An authority on merchant ships of the 19th Century now are we Christmas?"
No - but I've read several people who are - try it
Read what has been put up then dispute it - you appear to adopt the ignore and denyapproach to history like your fick friend (who is now apparently disagreeing you in spades.
Read what has been written about Emigration Terrytoon
Emigration became an answer to Ireland's problems in 1847 and remains a prominent feature of Irish life
That is the legacy left by Britain, along with sectarian conflict
You are now becoming a bit of a nuisance Keith - go and play in the garden
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:17 AM

"An authority on merchant ships of the 19th Century now are we Christmas?"
No - but I've read several people who are - try it
Read what has been put up then dispute it - you appear to adopt the ignore and denyapproach to history like your fick friend (who is now apparently disagreeing you in spades.
Read what has been written about Emigration Terrytoon
Emigration became an answer to Ireland's problems in 1847 and remains a prominent feature of Irish life
That is the legacy left by Britain, along with sectarian conflict
You are now becoming a bit of a nuisance Keith - go and play in the garden
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:39 AM

like your fick friend (who is now apparently disagreeing you in spades.

If you mean me Jim, I remind you again that I am not disagreeing with anyone.
I merely stated that the version you posted at such great length was not the only version recognised by historians.

Why do you attack me for stating that demonstrable truth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:49 AM

if you were half as good at deduction as you are at fabrication & leaping to conclusion, you might actually post something useful... but instead we get more of your BS

By 1850, the Irish made up a quarter of the population in Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Buffalo, and Baltimore.

Ellis Island is just part of the long history of immigrants arriving in NYC... a fact that you seem bound & determined to contest. In your view... they obviously landed in Quebec and then travelled on until they reached New York.

"Ah but somehow it is perfectly rational and reasonable in your view for you to cite two examples to argue that 75% of those who made the crossing died."

Well... since I DID NOT make that argument... those are your words, not mine... I only have to point out that the irrationality come from you.

I gave two links to a educational website that includes first hand reports and caveats when there is uncertainty about accuracy of a source. How you choose to contrue or miscontrue them is on you.

And after critizing my reference to Ellis Island, you then use the criteria from decades after the famine to justify why they couldn't have come thruough NY. The following is the Ellis Island Foundation   http://www.ellisisland.org/genealogy/ellis_island_history.asp

From the very beginning of the mass migration that spanned the years (roughly) 1880 to 1924, an increasingly vociferous group of politicians and nativists demanded increased restrictions on immigration. Laws and regulations such as the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Alien Contract Labor Law and the institution of a literacy test barely stemmed this flood tide of new immigrants. Actually, the death knell for Ellis Island, as a major entry point for new immigrants, began to toll in 1921.

This from Hostra.edu:
Most of the canal diggers were Irish immigrants. One reason that Canvass White recruited the Irish to work on the canal because he was impressed with Irish canal maintenance engineer named J.J. McShane. Many Irish immigrants who were living in cities in New York State found it difficult to get work because they were looked down upon by native-born Americans. What other reasons might Canvass White been glad to hire the Irish to build the canal?

And this from the National Park Service

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/ohioeriecanal/ethnicity.htm

The Irish wave of immigration to the Cuyahoga Valley was a result of canal construction. After the Napoleonic Wars peace settlements of 1815, Irish emigration intensified. Before the potato famine of 1846, more than a million Irish resettled in a foreign country. Many Irish immigrants who landed in New York City were recruited to work on New York State's Erie Canal, completed in 1825. Upon completion of the Erie Canal, many of these Irish workers came to northeast Ohio to work and made up the bulk of the labor force on the northern segment of the Ohio and Erie Canal. In fact, the 1850 State of Ohio Census lists 22.4% of the state's immigrants as coming from Ireland. The Irish Town Bend Archeological District in Cleveland's Flats District reflects the settlement era working class status of this ethnic group. Many of the early German settlers in the southern region of the Canalway were motivated by religion. In 1772 Moravian missionary David Zeisberger led a group of 28 Delaware Indians to the Tuscarawas River Valley to establish Schoenbrunn – the first settlement in the Northwest Territory. This mission settlement grew to include 60 dwellings and more than 300 inhabitants. Today it is a reconstructed village that is managed by the Ohio Historical Society.

America was settled by immigrants... and every local and regional historical society has records supporting the facts of who they were and just where they went... untouched by those who would deny those facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM

In detail - for those who have trouble with paragraphs with more than two sentences.
The evictions (yet to be responded to) continued to the end of the 19th century, leading to a devastated rural economy Nothing was done By Britain to relive that devastation.
The result was land wars and political unrest - Britain total expenditure was policing that unrest.
Enforced emigration led to a permanent drain of manpower.
More political unrest at the beginning of the 20th century until finally a settlement was brought about.
New Ireland immediately inherited a civil war caused by an enforced agreement, a partitioned Ireland and permanent sectarian conflict in the most arable part of the Island.
The inherited Empire economy had established emigration as a major feature of Irish life.
Despite blips in the economy, that remains the case (not helped, of course, by open, bloody warfare caused by a divided Ireland.
As I said - right up to the present day - not centuries ago.
This pattern has been repeated throughout the colonial world, but not to the same extent as in Ireland
As I said to your friend - go buy a book and stop making things up
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:02 AM

You might have read Christmas, but your only problem is that you don't understand what it is you are reading. Example - passenger accommodation on merchant ships of the time.

How many thousands arrived in Canada and America? That's the proof that the vast majority survived the crossing. But that was not the inference given in the article was it?

That between 1851 and 1975 some 4.7 million Irish citizens emigrated to America, doesn't surprise me for a second, those who went prospered and kin left behind in Ireland moved to share their prosperity. Nothing to do with Britain's legacy - more like a matter of personal choice - True? If you dispute that I would like to see your evidence substantiating the charge that they were driven out by the big bad British


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:06 AM

The English and Scottish rural populations were displaced too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:25 AM

For T-Bird's benefit, one site of many. I can't be arsed to make clickies.


http://www.moytura.com/grosse-ile.htm

http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/lhn-nhs/qc/grosseile/index.aspx


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:29 AM

"You might have read Christmas"
Now you are adopting a hit-and run line
-answer the points that have been made.
As far as thge coffin sheps are concerned -how many survived in no way contrqadicts the fact that they were shipped like cattele, wjhhich was my point
Some figures
"By the end of 1847, the awful toll could be calculated from the 200 immigrations ships that had made the crossing. Of 98,105 passengers (of whom 60,000 were Irish), 5293 died at sea, 8072 died at Grosse Isle and Quebec, 7,000 in and above Montreal. In total, then, at least 20,365 people perished (the numbers of those that died further along in their journey from illnesses contracted on the coffin ships cannot be ascertained) ? one-third of each vessel's passenger list. "
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:55 AM

"By 1850, the Irish made up a quarter of the population in Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Buffalo, and Baltimore."

And??

"Ellis Island is just part of the long history of immigrants arriving in NYC... a fact that you seem bound & determined to contest. In your view... they obviously landed in Quebec and then travelled on until they reached New York. "

Not one single Irishman, woman or child who fled the famine between 1845 and 1851 landed at Ellis Island – True?

"Ah but somehow it is perfectly rational and reasonable in your view for you to cite two examples to argue that 75% of those who made the crossing died."

Well... since I DID NOT make that argument... those are your words, not mine... I only have to point out that the irrationality come from you.


Please correct me if I am in error here but isn't the following yours:
"The Virginius from Liverpool, with 496 passengers, had lost 158 by death, nearly one third of the whole, and she had 180 sick; above one half of the whole will never see their home in the New World."

The example I used is based a friend's family history... they waited weeks for the ship their relatives were on to arrive in New York. It was never heard from again."


Now that is two ships – in one only half the people arrive and in the other nobody survives – expressed in very basic terms that is a 75% loss rate isn't it?

As for the rest I couldn't give a toss about Ellis Island it has got about as much to do with the emigration of the Irish and Scots from Great Britain in the period under discussion as London Heathrow Airport has.

"From the very beginning of the mass migration that spanned the years (roughly) 1880 to 1924,

And the relevance of that fact to the period 1845 to 1851 is??

The "Irishmen" who worked on the Erie Canal were Scots Irish (about 5,000 of them) and their presence had nothing whatsoever to do with fleeing anything let alone a famine seeing as how the work was carried out long before the blight struck in Ireland (1817 to 1825) – they saw it as an opportunity as at the time there were very few civil engineers in the USA.

Many of those same workers moved on in 1825 to build the Ohio & Erie Canal (1825 to 1832) so once again what relevance this has to the subject under discussion mystifies me.

America was indeed settled by immigrants... and the bulk of Irish immigration into the USA during the period 1845 to 1851 came via Canada.

Oh Christmas your post of 21 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM - biggest load of twaddle I have ever read in my life - always somebody else's fault isn't it - how convenient


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:59 AM

it is always amazing and sad to see how far people will go in their denial of history...

like the guy who stood up in a session during the 2013 Republican convention ( please bear in mind that the Republican Party was the party of abolitionists and the session was presided by a black Republican on the issue of how to attract more American Blacks into the Republican Party) and asserted that it was absurd for American Blacks to be upset about the issue of slavery... they had it pretty good back then... free food and lodging. WTF?????

or those who insist that the Holocaust never happened...

I suspect that these people have such delicate egos that they must take their feelings of self worth from external sources, rather than being secure in their own value. They take their identity and self worth from the group they identify with... I'm American... white... black ... Christian... Muslim... the list goes on. They then perceive any less than glowing approval of that group as a direct attack upon themselves... how else to explain how personally they react to what I perceive as fairly neutral comments.

Facts are facts... take them and learn from them. Try to avoid repeating past mistakes... which you can't do if you can't acknowledge that mistakes were made.

Some useful links were posted and most of the posters have been reasonable, so there has been some value to this thread... but arguing with the wall is not very productive and has only served to demonstrate the lengths to which some will go to avoid altering their mindset.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:05 AM

" biggest load of twaddle I have ever read in my life - always somebody else's fault isn't it - how convenient"
Banks of Denial again -
]You have had the facts on immagration
You have had the facts on Britain's solution
You have had the facts on the conditions on the coffin ships
You have had a summing up of post famine history
Denial doesn't hack it
Your proof?
Won't hold my breath
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:05 AM

" biggest load of twaddle I have ever read in my life - always somebody else's fault isn't it - how convenient"
Banks of Denial again -
]You have had the facts on immagration
You have had the facts on Britain's solution
You have had the facts on the conditions on the coffin ships
You have had a summing up of post famine history
Denial doesn't hack it
Your proof?
Won't hold my breath
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:10 AM

What's the matter Christmas you seem to stuttering or frothing a great deal today?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

Thank you once more sciencegeek (Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:59 AM) for another contribution that has got S.F.A. to do with the subject being discussed - if one thing has been demonstrated you are at least consistent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:24 AM

OK... in terms that you might understand, though I'm not holding out much hope.

Entering into "discussions" with you on the topic of the Irish Potato Blight is as productive as trying to discuss the Holocaust with a NeoNazi...

or the issue of segregation and discrimination of Blacks with a White Supremacist...

or the scientific study of evolution with a Christian Fundamentalist...

are you getting it yet????

you are a waste of my time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:26 AM

Jim,
You have had the facts on historians.
Most do not support your version of events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:28 AM

"What's the matter Christmas you seem to stuttering or frothing a great deal today?"
Nothing but bluster - damn - thought we were on the point of a real breakthough
Ah well!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:45 AM

"The Famine was the greatest calamity in Irish history. People needlessly died due to cold-hearted indifference and the elevation of the market above the lives of people. Nowhere near enough aid was given as prejudice won out over compassion. Laissez faire turned into Leave them to die."

This is a very telling statement. It shows that the Irish history revisionists and the Marxist Lefties are working together to divide people and foment hatred, just about all that they ever offer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:55 AM

You forgot 'or the First World War with Keith', there, Science.

T-Bird, you should have read up on Erie Canal history before making an arse of yourself: The first enlargement of the Erie Canal took place between 1835 and 1862- and employed more men that the initial construction. Ditto the interconnecting Champlain Canal. So shove your 1817 to 1832 "Scots Irish" engineers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:57 AM

"Marxist Lefties "
Ah - leftie plot!
Never thought of that
Came from one of Keith's historians (see Nielson) and haas been reiterated by every single historian writing on the subject - read the thread
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:59 AM

PeeDee, what the hell are you going on about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 12:53 PM

I am a bit confused about some of the Erie Canal proclamations. My ancestors were not Scots-Irish, they were not civil engineers and we believe they worked on the Erie and other canals. They ended up in Iowa as laborers and farmers. This would be the early 1850s.

Many ships landed in Quebec, and very many in New Brunswick, especially at first because of the trade of carrying big timber to England and then having basically empty ships. Those were prime coffin ships because they were absolutely unsuited to human transportation..they would just rig up some bunks, have no accomodations for toilets, and were generally awful. Many people took them with no other recourse, and ended up walking through Vermont I believe and on to the Niagra Falls area and further south.

Ellis Island came later. There was Castle Gardens before...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:16 PM

I would have read Terribulus's posts but he isn't fucking important enough.



Why does Keith tend to use the words true and truth when referring to historian opinion? Has he any idea what historians actually write?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM

yes indeed, mg the settlement of North America has a long and tangled history. Which is why you can not take one single fact and then try to apply it to all situations.

And is why I posted links to the National Park Service so that folks could look for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

There was a period of time when canal building was extensive since water transport is cheaper than overland... or at least it was until the boom in building railroads - thanks to advances in engine design.   Some canals were only half constructed when railroads were built past them. But both require large labor forces to construct... so the labor force went where the jobs were.

The reference to Ellis Island was me being more than a little annoyed about the blythe dismissal of New York being a major port of call for immigrant ships because Quebec was also a major port of call. Like there was only room on the continent for one? I'm still unclear as to what point that was supposed support... it just felt like one more distortion.

Oh.. and the term coffin ship was in common usage prior to the famine... meaning a ship that was overloaded and unsafe to sail. The term was then later used to describe the many ships that had no business carrying passengers, much less packing them full of immigrants. Since Lloyds of London insured shipping, they established some rules in an effort to ensure that cargo shipping met some safety standards... but they did not copyright the term and as long as you define the context in which you use the term, no reason to carry on about its use.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM

"I am a bit confused about some of the Erie Canal proclamations"
Terry Coleman's 'Passage to America' carries a great deal of information of who left from where and landed where - excellent starting point for anybody following up queries.
Jim Carroll
His account fo the early disasters
Jim Carroll
"In the first week of May 1847 the Liverpool Telegraph and Shipping Gazette carried a paragraph saying the King of Holland had strongly recommended the Emperor of Japan to throw open his country to the Europeans so as not to run the risk of being bombarded into civilization like the Chinese, and a letter, on something nearer home, from a correspondent who signed himself as One Long Connected with the Shipping Interests of Liverpool. He wrote:
Another emigrant ship has foundered and 248 of our fellow creatures have been launched, unshrived, into eternity. And another, and another, will share the same fate unless a strict and searching inquiry be instituted to ascertain if man is not guilty in some measure of causing so great a sacrifice of human life. The tale of one unfortunate vessel is the tale of many ... A few days and the circumstance is forgotten - it is only the foundering of an emigrant ship - remembered but by relatives. Of the 251 passen¬gers (the supposed number on board) only three escaped. The rest were drowned 'between decks' or washed from the wreck. No agonizing cry was heard - no piercing scream for help arose above the howling of the waves - all were silent, speechless, and sank into the sleep of mute death... O God! it is a most harrowing picture.1
The ship was the Exmouth, out of Londonderry bound for Quebec, and wrecked on the west coast of the Scottish island of Islay. She was an old vessel, launched in 1818, but she was in good repair. She foundered in a chasm. Later 108 bodies were recovered, hooked up by men who were lowered by ropes from the summit of the rocks on either side. Most of the dead were women and children, who were naked and mutilated, some without faces, others without heads or limbs. They were separately wrapped in sheets by two men named Campbell, who saw to their decent interment in a spot near the cliffs.
Fifty-nine emigrant ships to America were lost in the years 1847—53, and the Foundering Emigrant Ship was a clas¬sical Victorian disaster, much reported. The Powhattan, bound for Philadelphia, was wrecked on 16 April 1854 off the coast of New Jersey. She was stranded within eight yards of the low-water mark, so near that the passengers and crew could hear and reply to the suggestions made by those on shore, and though she did not break up for nearly twenty-four hours after she struck, no one from her reached the shore alive. The California Packet, a brig of 292 tons carrying pig iron, advertised to sail on 29 August 1853, finally did sail on 6 October, put back the next day, sailed again only on 3 November, and was abandoned the next day when she began to leak. The boats were not provisioned, the master abandoned the passengers seventy miles off the coast of Ireland, and made off. Three adults and fourteen children died.6 The summer of 1849 was a bad one. The brig Hannah, 287 tons, having had large repairs, and a new deck, sailed from Newry for Quebec, and struck an iceberg; 129 passengers were saved but fifty or sixty were crushed by the ice.6 In mid-July the Maria, with 111 passengers from Lim¬erick to Quebec, also struck an iceberg, and there were only nine survivors.' That same month the brig Charles Bartlett of Plymouth, Mass., bound from London to New York, was run down by the Cunard steamer Europa, 1,918 tons.
Forty-two of the brig's 142 passengers were saved, and the steamship company 'voluntarily intimated to the Mayor of Liverpool their intention of forwarding, free of charge, by their next two steamers to America, the persons saved from the wreck'.
The best-documented wreck of all was that of the OceanMonarch, which burned and sank in the Mersey barely out of Liverpool on 24th August 1848, with the loss of 176 lives"


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:14 PM

Musket, I did not use the words "true" or "truth" to describe anyone's opinion.
Only to describe absolute facts, i.e. that many historians do not find that the government was culpable, and that Kinealy stated that they are the majority.

Jim,
and haas been reiterated by every single historian writing on the subject

Of course it has not!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:48 AM

well, thanks to "debate" above, the name Christine Kinealy came up. The geek did some searching & found this interesting book for young people co-authored by her. I dare say, good reading for any age... especially us old foggies.


Making Sense of History: Evidence in Ireland for the Young Historian (Ulster Historical Foundation Publications)

This book will help you find out about the different types of evidence which historians study when doing their historical research. It also provides examples of this evidence, on which you will be able to carry out your own research. Some sources are very rare and are the only remaining evidence of a time in the past; other periods, especially the recent past, have lots of evidence which must be tested for bias and accuracy. This book will give you background information and advice about evidence in all its forms. This will enable you to develop the skills of a young historian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:59 AM

found another gem from wiki... it would seem that the US has set a legal standard for "historians", thanks to right wing Holocaust deniers.

During the Irving v Penguin Books and Lipstadt trial it became evident that the court needed to identify what was an "objective historian" in the same vein as the reasonable person, and reminiscent of the standard traditionally used in English law of "the man on the Clapham omnibus".[3] This was necessary so that there would be a legal bench mark with which to compare and contrast the scholarship of an objective historian against the methods employed by David Irving, as before the Irving v Penguin Books and Lipstadt trial there was no legal precedent for what constituted an objective historian.[3]

Justice Charles Gray leant heavily on the research of one of the expert witnesses, Richard J. Evans, who compared illegitimate distortion of the historical record practice by holocaust deniers with established historical methodologies.[4]

In summarising Gray's judgement, in an article published in the Yale Law Journal, Wendie E. Schneider distils these seven points for what he meant by an objective historian:[5]

       The historian must treat sources with appropriate reservations;
       The historian must not dismiss counterevidence without scholarly consideration;
       The historian must be even-handed in treatment of evidence and eschew "cherry-picking";
       The historian must clearly indicate any speculation;
       The historian must not mistranslate documents or mislead by omitting parts of documents;
       The historian must weigh the authenticity of all accounts, not merely those that contradict a favored view; and
       The historian must take the motives of historical actors into consideration.

Schneider uses the concept of the "objective historian" to suggest that this could be used as an aid in assessing what makes a historian suitable to be an expert witnesses under the Daubert standard in the United States. Schneider proposed this, because, in her opinion, Irving could have passed the standard Daubert tests unless a court was given "a great deal of assistance from historians".[6]

Schneider proposes that by testing a historian against the criteria of the "objective historian" then, even if a historian holds specific political views (and she gives an example of a well-qualified historian's testimony that was disregarded by a United States court because he was a member of a feminist group), providing the historian uses the "objective historian" standards, he or she is a "conscientious historian". It was Irving's failure as an "objective historian" not his right wing views that caused him to lose his libel case, as a "conscientious historian" would not have "deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence" to support his political views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:07 AM

"Of course it has not!"
Yup it has - prove it hasn't
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 01:57 PM

reiterated by every single historian writing on the subject

I do not need to prove that such a ridiculous claim is false!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM

Then feel free to contradict
You've had Kinealy's statement on who is to blame - you've ignored it
You've had Neilson's statement on who is to blame - you havew ignored it
You have had Trevelyan's statement - you won't even acknowledge it   
You have had entire documents specifically blaming British inaction and leaving it to the open market - you have ignored them
You have had the stated policy of forced immigration - you have ignored it
Game, set and match
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:09 PM

So that's two historians then.
I accept that.
Kinealy also states that most do not find the government culpable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM

This is a very informative debate with many facts being presented.

One point I think that is overlooked is the religious war between the "Proddies" and the "Papists", an ongoing war since Henry VIII.

There will apparently be defenders and deniers of oppression whether emanating in England, US or Israel, offering rationalizations for the abuse of human rights based on some spurious and prejudiced propaganda fostering nationalist views.

These views are tantamount to Holocaust deniers hiding behind some warped idea of history.

It's the same as the whining of Creationists about not having "equal time" with scientific discoveries.

I think it's rational to accept that the Irish famine happened because England wanted it to happen and did nothing to alleviate it. The real cause of the Irish famine was oppression.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:32 PM


I think it's rational to accept that the Irish famine happened because England wanted it to happen and did nothing to alleviate it.


This is obviously another subject you know nothing about but have lots of opinions on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:55 PM

"This is obviously another subject you know nothing about but have lots of opinions on."
You mean he hasn't read a book?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:41 PM

The Famine Plot- has all the answers, by Tim Pat Coogan. Amazon will provide it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:28 PM

The Famine Plot blurb...

During a Biblical seven years in the middle of the nineteenth century, Ireland experienced the worst disaster a nation could suffer. Fully a quarter of its citizens either perished from starvation or emigrated, with so many dying en route that it was said, "you can walk dry shod to America on their bodies." In this grand, sweeping narrative, Ireland''s best-known historian, Tim Pat Coogan, gives a fresh and comprehensive account of one of the darkest chapters in world history, arguing that Britain was in large part responsible for the extent of the national tragedy, and in fact engineered the food shortage in one of the earliest cases of ethnic cleansing. So strong was anti-Irish sentiment in the mainland that the English parliament referred to the famine as "God's lesson."

Drawing on recently uncovered sources, and with the sharp eye of a seasoned historian, Coogan delivers fresh insights into the famine's causes, recounts its unspeakable events, and delves into the legacy of the "famine mentality" that followed immigrants across the Atlantic to the shores of the United States and had lasting effects on the population left behind. This is a broad, magisterial history of a tragedy that shook the nineteenth century and still impacts the worldwide Irish diaspora of nearly 80 million people today."

Of course, the lower classes of their own nation were hardly treated any better. But their hard labor was needed to keep the mills and factories running... so they got the food instead of the Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM

Once our resident I-saw-it-on-the-internet-so-it-must-be-true bumper-sticker "historian" and professional fuckwit Keith has read Coogan - assuming that he actually is able to read, that is - he might also pick up Cecil Woodham-Smith's "The Great Hunger".


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:59 PM

Jim and I discussed both books at length on previous thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:19 PM

How did you do that, Keith, since you have never read either one?

Fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 03:03 AM

The discussion is here.
Read it yourself.
thread.cfm?threadid=151520&messages=452


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 04:14 AM

"Jim and I discussed both books at length "
What!!!!
You are lying - I mentioned the books - you dismissed them both out of hand as "revisionist Republicanism" ; only someone with your twisted imagination can describe that as having "discussed" it.
You have still not read it, nor any other single book
Your not having read anything on the subject makes anything you have to say totally invalid on two counts
You have no knowledge authoritative knowledge on which to base your jingoistic claims - only your "Britain didn't ever do anything bad" jingoism.
Your boastful, "I have never read a book on the subject" indicates that you have no interest in the subjects you vandalise with your studies ignorance, other than to defend Britain's role - in this case, in one of history's great crimes against humanity.
I have since read Coogan's book and find it convincingly impressive, though inconclusive - he, at least attempts to explain Trevelyan's statement - you continue to totally ignore it - further evidence of your flag-wagging agenda (you really have no interest in facts if they don't suit your bigotry.
I'm delighted you have linked to the debate - it shows your dishonest, your ignorance, your inventive lying lying by scooping up undigested quotes because you believe (usually mistakenly) that they back up your case.
The thread is a classic example of vacillation and spectacular u-turns.
As for your on-going ignorance of the term "revisionism"....
You want to be a contender - read a book - then you might have something to say worth responding to
"Jim and I discussed both books at length" - a classic case for framing and hanging on the wall - you are a joke
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 05:39 AM

You have only read books that tell your chosen version of events.
Read any revisionist historians Jim?

I have an open mind, but I am influenced by the findings of historians.
I know that there is dispute.
You post vast tracts of text that give one version only, and a minority view at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 06:56 AM

"You have only read books that tell your chosen version of events."
You have no idea of either what books I have read or what my 'version of events' might be again, you are diverting the discussion away from the balls you have made of it.
You cannot possibly be influenced by the "findings of historians" if you have never read what those findings are - you have proved that over and over again
My "vast tracts" have largely come from Kinealy, who a fellow Mudcatter introduced to this forum, followed by Neilson - both used by you to support your case and both blown up in your face.
How ****** dare you claim to know what I read, and how dare you suggest I am selective in my reading you dishonest little shit
Have I read any "revisionist" historians - I introduced Cecil Woodham Smith into this discussion - you wrote her off as "revisionist" - Tim Pat Coogan "revisionist republican.
I have always read as widely as possible on any subject that interests me - it's you who "selects" what you never get round to reading.
Try Robert Kee, Cathal Portair, Grieves Barder, Mansegher, Percival, Gallagher - even Marx and Engles... an entire spectrum of writers giving dozens of points of view in Irish history
and the dozen more I have on the shelves here - not counting the countless library books I've borrowed down the years.
You apparently don't even bother to read your own posts - you are apparently suffering from a sever bout of studied illiteracy on every singly subject you choose to foul up with your ignorance.
Now go and read a book
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 07:28 AM

You vindictively re-opened this thread to try to score some points - you have managed to humiliate yourself further
Go away - you are embarrassing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 08:48 AM

How can you think Woodham Smith and Coogan are revisionists?!
You still have not worked out the what is being discussed!

Historians dispute blame.
That is a fact and my only case in this whole discussion.

Kinealy tells us that the revisionists are dominant.
She tells us that the nationalist Woodham-Smith's work is derided by academic historians as a work of fiction. A "novel" they said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:10 AM

"Kinealy tells us that the revisionists are dominant."
Kineley doesn't tell anybody who doesn't read her (or anybody's) books anything, you pompous moron.
This has gone far enough
Someone pointed out that they had this thread transferred from the Skibbereen thread and that both of us were to blame for ruining that one - he was right.
We have destroyed thread are thread with these stupid, stupid black-hole arguments
You come to these subjects with no prior knowledge - you go away with none.
You don't even read your own cut-'n-pastes and you certainly don't read what anybody puts up here.
I've done with this - until you actually show enough interest to find out about these subjects I suggest, for the good of this forum and its members I request you do follow suit.
You are a cancerous growth on what is otherwise an excellent source of knowledge.
Stay out of my face - I really am not qualified to deal with special needs children
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM

I really would be grateful if somebody would remind me if anything resembling one of these farces shows its ugly head - apologies to all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:59 AM

Straight line: "Why do you keep hitting your head against the wall?"

Punch line: "Because it feels so good when I stop."

But at least I got a partial list of historians to look into when I have more time on my hands. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 10:02 AM

But I am not arguing.
I am merely pointing out that that there are differing views among historians.
That is a fact and you can not and do not deny it.
I simply do not understand why it makes you so angry and abusive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 11:51 AM

"But at least I got a partial list of historians"
If you've got time on your hands, take a look at 'The Famine Atlas'.
It's a doorstep of a book and far too expensive to buy casually, but if your library has it, take a look.
A remarkable regional survey and well worth dipping into regularly - it's not a continuous read; just an excellent reference.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 12:38 PM

Do any historians make the genocide accusation?
Coogan does, but is he an historian?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 12:56 PM

Coogan does, but is he an historian?

Fuckwit.

He's one of the top of the line.

Once you learn to read, try reading his book(s).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 02:24 PM

Is he qualified at all Greg?
Is he a member of any learned societies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:35 AM

"Is he a member of any learned societies?"
Pompous ******* nonsense
Tim Pat Coogan is one of the most respected hitorians in Ireland today on the subject of Irish political history with a dozen best-selling books to his credit
Putting historians on pedestals because they have letters behind their name is dangerous idolatry
Junking respected historians because they haven't is the equivalent to book-burning.
Doing both without having read either is straightforward mindless propaganda.
Not so long ago you were basing your argument on World War one on a tabloid journalist who works for an extreme right-wing newspaper, has no historical qualifications whatever but has written a book on military tactics - you insisted over and over again he was a historian, despite the fact he had never sat a history qualification in his life
You hadn't read his or anybody else's book on the subject either.
Max Hastings is a tabloid journalist with an interest in a single aspaect World War One.
If he is a "historian" with one book under his belt - Tim Pat Coogan, with a dozen books and a life-long study of the subject of Irish political and social history behind him is a thousand times more a historian   - you cannot pick and choose which historians are good or bad because they appear to suit your case - at least, that's what you claim.
Who the hell do you think you are?
You boast that yopu've never read a book on the subject yet you reserve the right to denigrate writers you have never read - you are an extremist nutter.
Stop goose-stepping your way through this forum.
I said I was not going to continue this argument with you and I have no intentions of doing so - I just wanted to put your blatant propagandising into context.
Over and out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:42 AM

Famine History books that do not blame Britain never become best sellers, even though they may be acclaimed among historians.
Being a best selling historian is not equivalent to being a good one.

Historians who blame Britain are a minority even if they are best sellers, and those who claim it was genocide are a minority of one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:16 AM

I have no intention of re-entering an argument with an extreme nationalist who distorts history and historians to make his nationalist case
You cannot possibly know what historians say without having read what they have written - stop inventing things you have admitted you know nothing about - take your extremist propaganda somewhere else and stop fouling up wht should be interesting and informative discussions
You've blown it with your manipulative stupidity
Stop buggering up these thread with your extremism and ignorance
Piss off
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:16 AM

I have no intention of re-entering an argument with an extreme nationalist who distorts history and historians to make his nationalist case
You cannot possibly know what historians say without having read what they have written - stop inventing things you have admitted you know nothing about - take your extremist propaganda somewhere else and stop fouling up wht should be interesting and informative discussions
You've blown it with your manipulative stupidity
Stop buggering up these thread with your extremism and ignorance
Piss off
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM

BUT I AM NOT ARGUING!!!.
I merely state facts that you do not and can not deny.

You posted your version of events, at very great length, as if it was the only one.
I merely pointed out that it was not.

Someone then posted a piece by Kinealy, who is in a position to know, where she states that historians who support your view are in a minority and long have been.

That is my whole case and you can not deny any of it.
No argument at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:53 AM

We often say that it takes two to have an argument.
Here we have an exception to the rule.

I have not argued against anything you have said.

You have made general attacks on me, and argued against things I have never said, without once challenging one single thing that I have said!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:22 AM

Is he qualified at all Greg? Is he a member of any learned societies?

Fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:26 AM

Should we take that as a no Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:03 AM

"And I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - sciencegeek - 19 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

The term "coffin ship" was in use long before 1847 and had nothing whatsoever to do with "deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - That the term was hijacked does not surprise me in the least - but at least have the honesty to recognise it for what it is.

In your first example the "Virginius" why did you omit to mention that among those who died on the voyage were the vessel's Master, First and Second Mates and damn near the entire crew, (I take it they must have been sharing the same deplorable conditions), and the loss of the bulk of the ship's crew must have affected her performance under sail with only one officer, a couple of men and one boy left to handle her – a bit selective of you isn't it sciencegeek (Go back and read that historical check list for the US's legal standard for "historians" –you will find out that you do not match up)

Now then Christmas:   
"You have had the facts on immigration" – No idea how many people entered Ireland during the famine years as immigrants Christmas – perhaps all these evil Brits wishing to cash in on this economic and political bonanza you keep prattling on about, but seem unable to provide any evidence of ever having occurred. We do however know the numbers of Irishmen, women and children who emigrated from Ireland and entered mainland Britain, Canada and the United States of America.

"You have had the facts on Britain's solution" - Yes repeal the laws that kept the price of crops artificially high and allow the cheap import of cereals, setting up of a means of distributing relief. When that failed due to the scale of the problem they put in place measures to move people off the land whether to towns and cities in Ireland, or on mainland Britain, or by emigration to Canada or the United States of America. With the exception of Belfast, Ireland generally had never undergone either an agrarian revolution or an industrial revolution as mainland Britain had. Therefore work opportunities in the major centres of population in Ireland, apart from Belfast, were minimal, so most left Ireland for mainland Britain. The measures obviously worked because subsequent to the famine of 1845 to 1851 while rare periodic periods occurred in which there were food shortages, there was never another famine in Ireland (Or Scotland for that matter). Doesn't alter the fact that during the period in question Britain paid for 750,000 people working on relief projects and fed 3 million - weird sort of "genocide" don't you think?

"You have had the facts on the conditions on the coffin ships" - Yes standard practice at the time for transporting people on ships that were essentially cargo vessels. Oh and for all your heart rending examples, designed and repeated time and time again to appeal to the furthering of this emotive claptrap and myth the following can be seen - "that first year of shipping (1847) particularly to the mouth of Saint Lawrence was untypical and that mortality on ships across the Atlantic was less than 5 per cent. Less actually than German emigrants migrating to North America in the same time period." – Professor Liam Kennedy of Queens College quoting Professor Joel Mokyr Were those Germans all part of the same diabolical British plot then Christmas?? Read some accounts and they speak of how healthy and happy the German emigrants were, but the figures tell a different story according to Joel Mokyr. Your Mr Laxton, gave the figure that five thousand trips were made across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants during the six years of the Famine Emigration And your Mr. Terry Coleman mentions that the total number of emigrant ships that were lost making the trans-Atlantic crossing amounted to 59 – So just over 1% of the ships foundered – Take a look at the statistics for Cape Horn they make that 1% loss rate look good going for the vessels of the period and the times. The purpose built ships for the passage of emigrants (Such as the "City of Adelaide" that carried emigrants to Australia) generally post date the period under discussion.

"You have had a summing up of post famine history" - Your "victims version" fueled by illogical, fictionalized, emotive claptrap, or fact? In 1879 the crop failed in Ireland, this caused hunger and there were food shortages, but not the death toll – why? Because of changes in the technology of food production, primarily enabled by the disappearance of the tiny subdivided plots of land. The disappearance of the cotter tenant ("i.e. those who left the land during the famine we are discussing), in short the land could be farmed a damn sited more efficiently. Post famine history also tells us that post 1840s in Ireland a railroad system was built that allowed food to be transported to the west of Ireland in days rather than months. The phenomenon of those emigrating post 1845-1851 famine came about simply by those people exercising their own free will or as a result of panic as was seen in 1879 – It most certainly did not come about by any deliberate plan instigated by any British Government as you contend.

One of your post famine songs about emigration puts it beautifully - written by Liam Reilly IIRC - Flight of Earls

It's not murder fear or famine
that makes us leave this time
We're not going to join McAlpine's Fusiliers
We've got brains and we've vision
We've got education too
And we just can't throw away these precious years"


The song was written about the state of affairs in Ireland in 1981/82 and the reason they left was because there was no work for them to do pure and simple - so in an Ireland that had been completely independent for 60 years it was still Britain's fault? Just how pathetic do you wish to paint yourselves?

Erie Canal Greg F? The topic was introduced by sciencegeek who mentioned it's construction NOT it's future modifications – I merely pointed out to him who actually was involved in its original construction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:17 AM

Lame, T-Bird- you were trying to imply that no Famine-period Irish emigrants were involved working on the Erie Canal. And you were wrong.

Nice tap-dancing, tho.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:40 AM

So there we have it
First class transportation
No enforced Emigratuin
No God's will
No closure of food stores and workhouses
No laissez-fairer policy
No Evictions
No Land War
No partition
No sectarian strife
No near century of National conflict
And above all - no evidence - just denial
Rule Britannia
Utter ethnic cleansing delial without a shred of evidence to back ity up - have you met Keth - let me introduce you,you should get on - he's a nationalist nutter as well
Yours
Christmas
PS - now new nickname so - no imagination


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:54 AM

Tim Pat Coogan's Book that Christmas & Co are hailing as being the new bible did not stand up all that well to critical review:

"I can't think of a single historian who has researched the Famine in depth – and Tim Pat has not researched it in depth. One of the striking things about this book is the narrowness of the evidential sources he uses and indeed they're presented so badly. Titles are misquoted. You might even say the title of his own book, The Plot, is itself misleading, and indeed the subtitle, England's Role in Ireland's Greatest Tragedy. Well it was Britain, not the United Kingdom. That's an old nationalist trope: England the neverending source of Ireland's ills. I find it terribly difficult, and I'm not being unkind, to find any redeeming feature in this book. That's its only point of originality. It's outdated, outmoded, and could I say, I was pleased to see that at moments you did engage with some modern scholarship, like Joel Mokyr, the great Dutch historian … of the Great Famine. I don't think you understood what he was saying. You have a phrase at one point – excess mortality – numbers per cent per thousand – that phrase means nothing. You clearly didn't understand what he was saying. And when you talk about coffin ships, one of the searing images of the Famine – appalling – and of course I accept that the Great Famine was a vast catastrophe, that's the title of one of my publications on this, but even when talking about coffin ships, surely you need to set that in context. The Grosse Isle experience was appalling, I've been to Grosse Isle, I've seen those graves, but that was not typical of transatlantic shipping during the Famine. If you had read Joel Mokyr and others, as your references seem to suggest, you would see quite clearly that Mokyr says that that first year of shipping particularly to the mouth of Saint Lawrence was untypical and that mortality on ships across the Atlantic was less than 5 per cent. Less actually than German emigrants migrating to North America in the same time period. So either you're guilty of incredibly selective reading or, I just wonder, have you lost the plot? Did you really understand what you were reading at times? - Professor Liam Kennedy

Tim Pat does admit that he targets what he calls "academic historians", I suppose he means those that have studied history and who have had to prove their ability to do so. He certainly has not.

So Tim Pat has written 6 books has he? Well if that is your metric Max Hastings has written 26 - only one subject you say? Work it out for yourself:

America, 1968: The Fire This Time (Gollancz, 1969) ISBN 0-575-00234-4
Ulster 1969

The Fight for Civil Rights in Northern Ireland (Gollancz, 1970) ISBN 0-575-00482-7

Montrose: The King's Champion (Gollancz, 1977) ISBN 0-575-02226-4

Bomber Command (Michael Joseph, 1979) ISBN 0-7181-1603-8

Battle of Britain by Len Deighton, Max Hastings (Jonathan Cape, 1980) ISBN 0-224-01826-4

Yoni — Hero of Entebbe: Life of Yonathan Netanyahu (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1980) ISBN 0-297-77565-0

Das Reich: Resistance and the March of the Second SS Panzer Division Through France, June 1944 (Michael Joseph, 1981) ISBN 0-7181-2074-4

Das Reich: March of the Second SS Panzer Division Through France (Henry Holt & Co, 1982) ISBN 0-03-057059-X

The Battle for the Falklands by Max Hastings, Simon Jenkins (W W Norton, 1983) ISBN 0-393-01761-3, (Michael Joseph, 1983) ISBN 0-7181-2228-3

Overlord: D-Day and the Battle for Normandy (Simon & Schuster, 1984) ISBN 0-671-46029-3

The Oxford Book of Military Anecdotes (ed.) (Oxford University Press, 1985) ISBN 0-19-214107-4

Victory in Europe (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1985) ISBN 0-297-78650-4

The Korean War (Michael Joseph, 1987) ISBN 0-7181-2068-X, (Simon & Schuster, 1987) ISBN 0-671-52823-8

Outside Days (Michael Joseph, 1989) ISBN 0-7181-3330-7

Victory in Europe: D-Day to V-E Day (Little Brown & C, 1992) ISBN 0-316-81334-6

Scattered Shots (Macmillan, 1999) ISBN 0-333-77103-6

Going to the Wars (Macmillan, 2000) ISBN 0-333-77104-4

Editor: A Memoir (Macmillan, 2002) ISBN 0-333-90837-6

Armageddon: The Battle for Germany 1944–45 (Macmillan, 2004) ISBN 0-333-90836-8

Warriors: Exceptional Tales from the Battlefield (HarperPress [UK], 2005) ISBN 978-0-00-719756-9

Country Fair (HarperCollins, October 2005) ISBN 0-00-719886-8.

Nemesis: The Battle for Japan, 1944–45 (HarperPress [UK], October 2007) ISBN 0-00-721982-2 (re-titled Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944–45 for US release Knopf ISBN 978-0-307-26351-3)

Finest Years: Churchill as Warlord, 1940–45. London, HarperPress, 2009. ISBN 978-0-00-726367-7 (re-titled Winston's War: Churchill, 1940–1945 for US release by Knopf, 2010, ISBN 978-0-307-26839-6)

Did You Really Shoot the Television?: A Family Fable. London, HarperPress, 2010. ISBN 978-0-00-727171-9

All Hell Let Loose: The World At War, 1939–1945. London, HarperPress, 29 September 2011. ISBN 978-0-00-733809-2 (re-titled Inferno: The World At War, 1939–1945 for US release by Knopf, 1 November 2011, ISBN 978-0-307-27359-8. 729 pp)

Catastrophe 1914: Europe Goes to War. London, Knopf Press, Release Date 24 September 2013, ISBN 978-0307597052, 640 pp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:11 PM

The term "coffin ship" was in use long before 1847 and had nothing whatsoever to do with "deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - That the term was hijacked does not surprise me in the least - but at least have the honesty to recognise it for what it is."

So now I'm the dishonest one... back to poounding my head against the wall...

SO - If it's qualifiers that you need... as a result of the high mortality aboard many of the ships used to transport Irish refugees during the potato famine, the term coffins ships was applied to those ships. As opposed to your insistence that it could only refer to overloaded and over insured ships.   

"Erie Canal Greg F? The topic was introduced by sciencegeek who mentioned it's construction NOT it's future modifications – I merely pointed out to him who actually was involved in its original construction."   

Here is my actual statement: And we live within 50 miles of the Erie Canal... renowned for the large Irish workforce involved in its construction. Pardon me for leaving out the fact that the Erie Canal is now part of the NYS Barge Canal System and as you drive along the NYS Thruway you will see preserved remanants of the original canal as well as sections of the current day canal.

The dang thing has been built & rebuilt over the years since 1825... you just assumed that I could only mean the original construction... just as you have assumed that HER is a HIM. Sorry - no Y chromosome in this geek.

Quibbling with a post on this thread does not change historical facts, it only represents a desperate need to preserve one's fixed opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:23 PM

So - someone Didn't like Coogan's book - so what - I read it and gave my opinion keep up
However many books our tabloid journalist has written - he remains a tabloid journalist and does not merit Keith's criterion (not mine) of a the qualified historian he was demanding from everybody else - but there you go - that's Keith for you.
As you have made no detailed criticism of Coogan's book you appear not to have read it - but there again, you seldom give detailed quotes on anything - just cut-'n-paste swoops and divine inspiration presumably - just like Keith.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong on the basis of having read something and got it wrong - I don't slavishly follow any agenda - I'm not a flag-wagger - unlike you pair of morons, I'm not a God Save England, Ireland or wherever
I certainly don't describe people as whining Irish - like you pair of prats
As I said to your friend - go read a book and stop relying on the good o''three Bs - bullshit, bullying and bluster - you don't impress
Happy Christmas


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM

I really don't think they have a good idea of the numbers who died and emigrated...especially to England...are there ships manifests of who went to Liverpool from Ireland? Would a captain of a decrepit timber ship bother to take laborious records of his starving passengers?

As for the Germans, a witness to one unloading said the Germans came out singing and the Irish came out crawling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:59 PM

So - someone Didn't like Coogan's book - so what

Errr, not just someone, but Professor Liam Kennedy

BSc, MSc (NUI), PhD (York), FRHistS
Professor Emeritus of Economic & Social History
E-mail: l.kennedy@qub.ac.uk
Liam Kennedy was born in rural Tipperary under the star sign of Leo (or was it Taurus?), well before the era of Radio Telefis Eireann and the Friesian cow. His undergraduate degree was in food science but he experienced a later Pauline conversion to history. His formative intellectual influences included Raymond Crotty (Irish agricultural production), Sir John Hicks (A theory of economic history), Edna O'Brien (The country girls) and the Tipperary Star. In 2005 he held a visiting professorship at the University of Toronto and is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. Liam Kennedy retired from the academic staff in September 2011, but remains an active member of the Queen's History community.
Research Interests

Themes of rural social change dominated his earlier research interests, and still retain an emotional charge. Increasingly, however, his interests have shifted towards the study of long-term social change in Ireland, extending from the 17th to the 20th century. Historical studies of wages, prices and living standards, as well as secular change in the political and religious demography of Ireland have come to the fore. Other interests include Belfast in 1911, and bastardy and the Irish. In his darker moments he contests the notion of the MOPE syndrome: that in the comparative historical stakes the Irish were the most oppressed people ever.
Select Publications

Books:
(With Peter Solar), Irish Agriculture: A Price History from the mid-18th century to the eve of the First World War, 1755–1913 (Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 2007).
(Ed., with R.J. Morris), Scotland and Ireland: order and disorder, 1600–2000 (Edinburgh: John Donald, 2005).
(With L.A. Clarkson et al), Mapping the Great Irish Famine (Dublin: Four Courts Press, 1999).
(Ed., with Isabelle Devos), Marriage and the rural economy: western Europe since 1400 (Brussels, 1999).
Colonialism, religion and nationalism in Ireland (Belfast: Institute of Irish Studies, 1996).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 01:06 PM

Max Hasting, "tabloid journalist" and,
, spending a year (1967–68) as a Fellow of the World Press Institute, following which he published his first book, America, 1968: The Fire This Time, an account of the US in its tumultuous election year. He became a foreign correspondent and reported from more than sixty countries and eleven wars for BBC TV's 24 hours current affairs programme and for the Evening Standard in London. Hastings was the first journalist to enter the liberated Port Stanley during the 1982 Falklands War. After ten years as editor and then editor-in-chief of The Daily Telegraph, he returned to the Evening Standard as editor in 1996 until his retirement in 2002.[2] He received a knighthood in 2002. He was elected a member of the political dining society known as The Other Club in 1993.[3]
He has presented historical documentaries for the BBC and is the author of many books, including Bomber Command which earned the Somerset Maugham Award for non-fiction in 1980. Both Overlord and The Battle for the Falklands won the Yorkshire Post Book of the Year prize. He was named Journalist of the Year and Reporter of the Year at the 1982 British Press Awards, and Editor of the Year in 1988. In 2010 he received the Royal United Services Institute's Westminster Medal for his "lifelong contribution to military literature", and the same year the Edgar Wallace Award from the London Press Club.[2]
In 2012 he was awarded the US$100,000 Pritzker Military Library Literature Award, a lifetime achievement award for military writing, which includes an honorarium, citation and medallion, sponsored by the Chicago-based Tawani Foundation.[4]
Hastings is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature, and the Royal Historical Society. He was President of the Campaign to Protect Rural England from 2002–2007.
In his 2007 book Nemesis: The Battle for Japan, 1944–45 (also known as Retribution in the United States), the chapter on Australia's role in the last year of the Pacific War was criticised by the chief of the Returned and Services League of Australia and one of the historians at the Australian War Memorial for allegedly exaggerating discontent in the Australian Army during this period.[5] Dan van der Vat in The Guardian called it "even-handed", "refreshing" and "sensitive", and praised the language used.[6] The Spectator called it "brilliant" and praised his telling of the human side of the story.[7]


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 01:09 PM

"I really don't think they have a good idea of the numbers who died and emigrated"
I couldn't find an overall figure - just the specific ones from Coleman's book - which seems to indicate that the figures were massive
- see above (21 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM)
Wouldn't mattre to this pair of clowns anyway - they all died for a good cause - the Empire
More historians Keith - doesn't it tempt you to go and read one - eejit -either of you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 02:28 PM

125,000 died on the voyage in one year alone 1847
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:02 PM

125,000 died on the voyage in one year alone 1847
Jim Carroll

how depressing... and this number is what some have included in the "but this number of people emmigrated" and therefore their demise somehow is no longer relevant to the discussion.

I'm sure that will draw some flack...

With the exception of the Williams side of my family, the rest came over fairly recently and without the heartbreak associated with other forced emmigrations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:33 PM

That was one year - the famine lasted for 5
Those who were already ill whe they embarked had been left with no choice - the warehouses and workhouses had been closed - armed soldiers were set to guard over-full warehouses - there were reports of them firing on 'rioters' ie starving peasants demanding food.
The sick emigrants were left two alternatives - to die in the lanes or on board ship.
Maybe it wasn't 'human engineering' - maybe it was as Kinealy and Neilson said, it was callous indifference
Not convinced either way - but whatever - there's no evading the responsibility unless you ignore the fats and hide behind 'historians'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:49 PM

The vast majority of deaths in Ireland between 1845 and 1851 were caused by cholera and typhus, along with the usual causes: accidents and old age.

If someone really wants to know what causes cholera and typhus, they can do some research. Suffice it to say, overpopulation led to inadequate sanitation which led to disease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:09 PM

Ah, PeeDee- more utter BS. Tell us: Have you ever read Coogan, Woodham-Smith Or Kinealy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:47 PM

"were caused by cholera and typhus"
Brought on by malnutrition, no access to water, lack of medical attention and exposure to the elements
What's your point?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:51 PM

There is no evading the scale of the human catastrophe, but was anyone to blame?
There is no consensus, and you are wrong to claim otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:56 PM

Famine deaths

There is no evading the scale of the human catastrophe, but was anyone to blame?
No Keith - it was the will of God - Trevelyan said so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:48 PM

You were wrong to post as if there was one accepted view.
Your view is actually a minority view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 04:34 AM

1: »Quibbling with a post on this thread does not change historical facts"
I could not agree more sciencegeek and so far not one single fact provided indicates that there was ever any deliberate intent or plan on the part of the British Government to carry out a campaign of genocide in Ireland between 1845 and 1851. Now the fact that they could have handled things far better is not in doubt, but there was no deliberate campaign. On "Coffin" Ships here is another possible contender for ships that could justly be called "Coffin" Ships – Look up Sir Edward Pine Coffin, Commissary-General who between January 1846 and March 1848 directed that new built steam powered naval ships be used to distribute relief supplies on the West coasts of Ireland and Scotland, he specified those ships as they would not be dependent upon prevailing winds to successfully complete their voyages – Again hardly falls in with the line about a deliberate campaign of genocide does it?

2: "However many books our tabloid journalist has written - he remains a tabloid journalist and does not merit Keith's criterion (not mine) of a the qualified historian he was demanding from everybody else "

Ever looked up Tim Pat Coogan on Google?

"Timothy Patrick "Tim Pat" Coogan (born 22 April 1935) is an Irish historical writer, broadcaster and newspaper columnist. He served as editor of The Irish Press newspaper from 1968 to 1987."

So being perfectly logical and using your own criteria, if Sir Max Hastings cannot be described as a Historian because he was just a journalist, then neither can Tim Pat Coogan – True? Or as usual do you simply let your own bigotry take over, in order that you can just make stuff up as you go along?

By the way a historical writer is a different animal to a historian, I leave it to you to research the difference.

Now let us take a look at Sir Max Hastings:

"Sir Max Hugh Macdonald Hastings, FRSL, FRHistS (born 28 December 1945) is a British journalist, editor, historian and author."

The FRSL = Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature
The FRHistS = Fellow of the Royal Historical Society

So critically acclaimed by professional bodies in the fields of literature and history to the degree that he is welcomed into their most prestigious societies ( I would have thought that counted for something GBS was a FRSL IIRC)

Hastings in his time has supported both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party and has voted accordingly. He also is on record as having described Gordon Brown as "wholly psychologically unfit to be Prime Minister" – so no-one can fault the man's judgement or instincts .

3: As far as reading books go the work I have constantly referred to, which I have read and studied, has been the one that is generally regarded as the Definitive work on the Famine of 1845 to 1849 and that is Cecil Woodham-Smith's "The Great Hunger" and as I have previously stated on this thread she does not spare the British Government, but does give credit where it is due (Unlike yourself) and she provides no argument to suggest any deliberate campaign on the part of the British Government – no policy of Genocide.

4: As far as numbers went mg there were, and there are, records kept by both Shipping companies and port authorities of people landing, they are available on line for anyone wishing to look them up ("The Irish Times" has a particularly good one listing some 225 vessels that sailed between 1845 and 1851). It was a business mg and businesses run on paper.

You mentioned the Germans, as did I, the account you refer to, may well be correct, but it does not alter the fact discovered by Joel Mokyr during his research that more Germans died whilst on passage.

"1983: Why Ireland Starved: An Analytical and Quantitative Study of Irish Poverty, 1800-1851;

He dismisses widespread arguments that Irish poverty can be explained in terms of over-population, an evil land system or malicious exploitation by the British. Instead, he argues that the causes have to be sought in the low productivity of labour and the insufficient formation of physical capital -- results of the peculiar political and social structure of Ireland, continuous conflicts between landlords and tenants, and the rigidity of Irish economic institutions.

Irish history is often heavily coloured by political convictions: Mokyr brings to this controversial field not only wide research experience but also impartiality and scientific objectivity. The book is primarily aimed at numerate economic historians, historical demographers, economists specializing in agricultural economics and economic development and specialists in Irish and British nineteenth-century history."



Odd isn't it that during this same period people were flocking to America from all over Europe for exactly the same reasons that the Irish were emigrating – no accusations of genocide there though, strange really as in most of those countries their Governments did not lift a finger to help those fleeing.

On the mainland of the United Kingdom the West Coast of Scotland and the Highlands were particularly badly hit – yet the Scots do not accuse the British Government of any act of genocide.

In the closing years of the 17th century and the early years of the 18th century Scotland lost approximately 20% of its population to famine. It was one of the driving arguments for the Act of Union in 1707.

In the aftermath of the 45 Rebellion clearances that had started in the 17th century were accelerated, but the big difference here was that although land-owners wanted their former clansmen off the land they wanted them housed in new towns and villages that they had built (Helmsdale in Sutherland is one example of such a town) to work in cottage industries, fishing, kelping and in mines. Those dispossessed on the other had wanted to move further afield and this was the subject and inspiration of Burn's poem "Address of Beelzebub" written in 1786 and this is the foreword and introduction to it:

"To the Right Honourable the Earl of Breadalbane, President of the Right Honourable and Honourable the Highland Society, which met on the 23rd of May last at the Shakespeare, Covent Garden, to concert ways and means to frustrate the designs of five hundred Highlanders, who, as the Society were informed by Mr. M'Kenzie of Applecross, were so audacious as to attempt an escape from their lawful lords and masters whose property they were, by emigrating from the lands of Mr. Macdonald of Glengary to the wilds of Canada, in search of that fantastic thing-Liberty."

The Scottish Famines of 1690s and 1780 caused great loss of life, the Highland famine of 1846 to 1852 resulted in fewer deaths but caused over 1.7 million people to leave Scotland.

" Famine was a real prospect throughout the period, and certainly it was one of severe malnutrition, serious disease, crippling financial hardship and traumatic disruption to essentially agrarian communities. The causes of the crisis were similar to those of the Great Irish Famine and both famines were part of the wider food crisis facing Northern Europe caused by potato blight during the mid-1840s." - General summation given in Wiki, Highland Potato Famine


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:28 AM

"Odd isn't it that during this same period people were flocking to America from all over Europe for exactly the same reasons that the Irish were emigrating – no accusations of genocide there though, strange really as in most of those countries their Governments did not lift a finger to help those fleeing."

A spurious argument at best... since the topic was the Irish Potato Blight which was co-opted into the Irish Famine... which involved a far greater proportion of the overall population than on the continent.

Now why don't we get down to the real case here and cut the BS...

my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight... we have enough problems even today dealing with plant pathogens. So the crop failures were inevitable. I also indicated that some of the well meant relief efforts failed because of ignorance.

BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular.

Anymore than I make excuses for the


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:38 AM

More quibbling about the "coffin ships" does not later by one corpse the number of people who died on them - it just shuffles around them - as you apologists do.
Cecil Woodham Smith's The Great Hunger certainly is not "definitive" - it is merely an excellent introduction to the subject.
Keith dismissed it as "revisionist" whatever his mind has interpreted the term.
The 150th anniversary of the Famine produced a whole batch of fresh studies on the subject - many of them examining the political motivation and the implications of appointing a religious fanatic like Trevelyan to be put in charge of distributing food to a population he despised - his actions show that.
If that were not enough, I stumbled across the debate between Kennedy and Coogan on 'The Famine Plot' - fascinating listening.
Kennedy describes Trevelyan as "a dedicated workaholic" struggling to feed the starving people
Kennedy, whatever his qualifications, turns out to be no more than a Famine apologist - like you pair of clowns.
He in no way attempts to explain Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish, nor why such a man should have been appointed - he certainly never refers to the fact that Trevelyan decided to take a long holiday in the middle of the Famine - leaving the Irish to continue to starve.
One thing I had missed when I read Coogan's book, which I revisited last night, was an appendix containing a long letter sent anonymously by Trevelyan (under the pseudonym Philalethes) to The Morning Chronicle (Oct. 11th 1843), expressing his hatred of the Irish as lazy malcontents who didn't appreciate the benefits of the British Empire - this is the man who was appointed to feed the people he hated.
I have never come across Trevelyan's letter before and can find no reference to it elsewhere - a historical cover-up?   
Comparing other famines with the Irish one is more or less equivalent to saying human rights atrocities are acceptable because everybody does them - as you both have done
You have described The Famine as "unprecedented" - it was.
The way it was handled was Genocidal - whether it was deliberately so is what should be debated.
Your advocating for Hastings doesn't make a happorth of difference - not to me anyway.
I haven't read his book and haven't commented on what he wrote - I pointed out that his latest work was cited as being "weak on the causes of WW1 - no more.
My reason for raising his name was to point out the hypocrisy of Keith (who still hasn't read a book as as far as I know) demanding "evidence from real historians" while basing his entire arguments (on WW1) on the writings of a tabloid journalist, with no historical qualifications, permanently employed a notoriously jingoistic producer of rightist bum-fodder - how crassly dishonest can you get.
You want to make a point about the Famine - do so.
Don't compare it to other famines - don't waffle about who invented coffin ships - come out from behind the reputations of 'prominent historians and address the facts, which are simply based on the Government decision to abandon all attempts at relief and opt for "inevitable" mass deaths and/or enforced emigration - that is what lies at the heart of over a million deaths and a permanent culture of Irish emigration ever since.
Stop waffling and blustering - stick to the point boy!
Yours
Christmas
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:52 AM

"125,000 died on the voyage in one year alone 1847
That was one year - the famine lasted for 5"


And?? Are you trying to infer that the 125,000 is an average? (Of course it isn't) That as the famine lasted 5 years therefore 625,000 people must have died making the journey from Ireland to the new world? (Nowhere near that number died crossing the Atlantic)

Another figure that has been bandied about has been that 30% of those setting out across the Atlantic from Ireland died – Again that is not true. One man who has studied this extensively is Joel Mokyr and he, as I have previously stated, put the overall percentage of those dying on passage as being 5%, specifically mentioning and drawing our attention to the year 1847 as being untypical.

On the link entitled "Famine deaths" written by Professor Joel Mokyr, supplied by Christmas, there is one thing of which I am certain, he either did not read it (Because if he did it blows his deliberate plot and genocide theory out of the water), or if he did, like journalist Tim Pat Coogan, he simply just did not understand what it was that he was reading.

Black '47 – the worst year of the famine, the famine which Christmas, and his supporters on this forum, claim was an act of deliberate genocide on the part of the British Government to wipe out the Irish nation by deliberately starving them to death. In 1847 the worst year of the famine in Ireland 6,000 people starved to death according to the link that Christmas provided. Just under quarter of a million people did die that year but not from starvation. Yet Christmas puts forward the case that if food had been provided to the people (logistically impossible to do as was discovered at the time) by the British Government then all would have been well. Professor Joel Mokyr in his paper tells you different Christmas and he explains the whys and the wherefores – you just simply did not read them, or understand them.

But here is the bit that blows Christmas's claims out of the water – taken directly from Professor Joel Mokyr's paper:

VIII: CONCLUSION
The dimensions of a disaster depend on the size of the impact and the vulnerability of
the society upon which it is inflicted. The functional relation between outcome and the two
determinants is, however, additive rather than multiplicative. Even seemingly invulnerable
societies can be devastated if the impact is large enough. Conversely, weak and vulnerable
societies may survive for long periods if they are lucky enough to avoid major challenges.

Sadly, Ireland was not lucky.
Ireland's vulnerability was in terms of its overall poverty, the physical impossibility
of storing potatoes, and the thinness of markets in basic subsistence goods due to the
prevalence of the potato. But there is a second dimension to the vulnerability which
compounds the first one, and that is that all populations of the time were vulnerable to an
increase in the incidence of infectious diseases in case of outside shocks. The absence of a
clear understanding of the nature of disease meant that the privations and disruptions of the
Famine quickly translated themselves into the horror-filled statistics of Wilde's 1851 "Tables of Deaths".

It bears repeating that in past famines, including the Great Irish Famine, most
victims were not killed directly by hunger and exposure but by micro-organisms. Neither
the victims, NOR THE AUTHORITIES, NOR MEDICAL EXPERTS understood this basic fact
until the 1880s.
Their ignorance of the exact nature of what it was that was killing most victims is a
crucial element in determining the demographic impact of past famines. The main reason
why modern famines differ from past famines is that today we understand the role that
infectious disease plays during nutritional crises. A careful analysis of epidemics during past
famines can therefore help us toward a better understanding of precisely what happened in
the past. The understanding of the epidemiology and etiology of infectious diseases and the
physiology of their symptoms, and the knowledge of how to treat patients suffering from
basic ailments such as fever and diarrhoea will remain with us even if antibiotics lose some
of their effectiveness with the proliferation of drug-resistant strains. Moreover, even in the
presence of severe food scarcities, the complete collapse of hygiene and personal care can be
prevented. In this respect, the timing of the Irish famine was as tragic as its dimensions:
had Phytophthora Infestans attacked only a few decades later, better understanding of the
basic mechanisms of death thanks to the scientific advances following the work of Pasteur
and Koch might have saved many thousands of lives."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:20 AM

Keith dismissed it as "revisionist" whatever his mind has interpreted the term

No. Keith described Woodham-Smith as Nationalist, the opposite of Revisionist.
I did not choose the terms used by historians, but it is not that hard to grasp Jim!

I am not "demanding "evidence from real historians" "
I am pointing out that they are divided, and that your view is a minority one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:24 AM

You know, you can't bandy the word revision around without reference to the index text.

What was that?

Anyone?

Hello?




This is also an excellent cart before the horse. The thread asks for debate on the cause of potato blight, and the discussion is about the reaction to the potato blight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

Revisionism and Nationalism in the context of famine History has been laid out from the beginning of the discussion on the previous thread.

I am amazed that you two find the terms so confusing.
Come back when you have got it clear in your little minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:32 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:58 AM

Steve, it was a famine triggered by the blight.
All historians agree it was catastrophic for Ireland.
The old "nationalist" historians regarded the English as being uniquely uncaring and the Irish as uniquely the victims.

"Revisionist" historians challenge the view that England was culpable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:40 AM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:38 AM
Jim, I am not the historian, and I did not expect you to agree with them all, but they are eminent and respected.
I did not choose the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" as applied to historians of the famine.
Google "revisionist nationalist history famine ireland" and see what comes up.

I also gave this link to a page that explains the usage fully.
http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/KS3_Famine_Interpretations.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 07:16 AM

That explains why the British closed the warehouses, workhouses, contuned to export food and enforced emigration while allowing mass evictions of tenants - which lasted for another half century half-century - damn, I didn't thinks of that.
If you don't mind, Id rather go with the suggestion that Britain appointed someone who hated the Irish (and said so) to distribute food and allowed him to carry out a cull of undesirables - at least, until a bettes suggestion comes along.
The Irish economy, agrarian and rural, was as it was under British rule - It wasn't changed in any way because it suited the Empire to leave it as it was - Britain's breadbasket.
There were no attempts at modernisation - it remained a basic peasant economy - and referred to as such.
That situation was prevalent throughout the Empire - each colony alloted its role in feeding the beast.
Any attempts to alter that situation were firmly and bloodily imposed.
Probably the best example of the Imperial mindset was 'Poor Little Belgium's' slaughtering 10,000.000 Congolese.
You want to excuse Britain's policy, do so and stop waffling around long dismissed excuses.
Keith's historians have all made their views clear that it was Britain's "callous" laissez-faire policy that caused so many deaths, whether it was intended or not.
Keith - if I wanted a group of gods to worship, I'd join a pantheist church - historians produce facts on which we can make up our own minds (those of us who have them) - they do not deliver scriptures writ in stone
You might find that if you ever get round to reading one.
There is no confusion of the term revision - just the way you have adapted it to mean whatever you want it to mean.
I'm happy to dip into the earlier discussion in which you used it as an outright condemnation of all historians other than your own and produced a massive list of your having done so, only to have it totally ignored by you.
Go and play in the garden and maybe we'll go for a walk - after you've taken your medicine, of course
Your mindless repetition on inanities only manages to convince that you are really a Dalek.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 07:21 AM

I've already put up your document - by the way
or suggested that it was somehow inevitable and not the fault of the British government
Which is more or less what you pair are doing.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:15 AM

"More quibbling about the "coffin ships" does not alter by one corpse the number of people who died on them - it just shuffles around them - as you apologists do."

Don't believe I personally have shuffled anything around – you are trying to infer or claim that 625,000 people died on the ships transporting emigrants from the British isles to either Canada or America during the famine of 1845 to 1851 – Now if one was to accept that between 1845 and 1855 two million Irish men, women and children emigrated to the new world that would mean that just over 31% died. Only trouble is Christmas that just doesn't tally with the numbers who landed and went on to live in the new world. Joel Mokyr an ecomonics historian however has studied the numbers and his percentage indicates only 5% lost their lives. Now do I believe him, or do I believe you? Professor Mokyr has an international reputation in his field of study and is widely acclaimed, you on the other hand I know for a fact have a long history of just making stuff up, and deliberately misrepresenting things to suit your general anti-British bias. So if you don't mind I will go with the good Professor.

"Cecil Woodham Smith's The Great Hunger certainly is not "definitive" - it is merely an excellent introduction to the subject."

Much acclaimed when it was written back in 1962, it was critically reviewed by historians as being overly harsh on Trevelyan. When I read it I thought it was a good book and your view is shared by:

Great Famine Interpreters - Old & New

The writer also comes down on the side that there was no great deliberate plot and that Mitchel's book was propaganda.

What evidence do you wish to concoct to substantiate your claim that Trevelyan was a religious fanatic? I mean this is the same supposed religious fanatic who in one letter dated 29 April 1846, wrote:

"Our measures must proceed with as little disturbance as possible of the ordinary course of private trade, which must ever be the chief resource for the subsistence of the people, but, coûte que coûte (at any cost), the people must not, under any circumstances, be allowed to starve."

Strange words to use for a man hell bent in destroying the Irish nation by starving them to death don't you think?

"I stumbled across the debate between Kennedy and Coogan on 'The Famine Plot' - fascinating listening."

Yes it was Christmas and Kennedy ran circles round Coogan, even although Coogan was given more time.

"Kennedy, whatever his qualifications, turns out to be" - A Historian Not a Hack ("Your words Christmas").

Reading up about Trevelyan I came across this bit of nonsense written by one Ciarán Ó Murchadha, from his book "The Great potato famine: Ireland's Agony 1845-1852":

"The Peelite Relief Programs that were in operation during the beginning years of the famine were shut down on July 21, 1846 by Charles Wood, 1st Viscount Halifax, on Trevelyan's orders"

Now just looking at who was who in that statement you had Charles Wood, 1st Viscount Halifax, who was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, second most important political appointment in the Whig Government of Lord John Russell, and you had Charles Edward Trevelyan the British civil servant chiefly responsible for administering Irish relief policy throughout the famine years (He didn't pick up his KCB until 1848). Now then you tell me who was in a position to give who orders? (Hint: It certainly wasn't Trevelyan). By the way what holiday did Trevelyan take between 1845 and 1852?

"One thing I had missed when I read Coogan's book, which I revisited last night, was an appendix containing a long letter sent anonymously by Trevelyan (under the pseudonym Philalethes) to The Morning Chronicle (Oct. 11th 1843), expressing his hatred of the Irish as lazy malcontents who didn't appreciate the benefits of the British Empire"
I have never come across Trevelyan's letter before and can find no reference to it elsewhere - a historical cover-up?


So only Tim Pat Coogan has got substantive proof that Phlalethes and Charles Edward Trevelyan are indeed the same person, as no reference is made to this letter elsewhere, so it MUST BE a cover up? What about if Trevelyan didn't write the letter at all? Oh by the way as to the Irish being lazy I would refer you to the link you supplied "Famine deaths" and acquaint yourself with what Professor Joel Mokyr says about the Irish on that point – their indolence, personal hygiene and living habits were all massive contributory factors with regard to death from contagious diseases.
   
"Comparing other famines with the Irish one is more or less equivalent to saying human rights atrocities are acceptable because everybody does them"

The only points of comparison that I have made have centred on:

1: Ireland was not the only place struck by this particular famine, but is the only place in which people, such as yourself are wittering on about deliberate plots and genocide purely to advance a political objective.

2: That while famines raged throughout Europe the British Government was the only Government that put in place a relief effort (Over three-quarters of a million men engaged in Government sponsored work programmes and just over three million people being fed).

"You have described The Famine as "unprecedented" - it was.
The way it was handled was Genocidal - whether it was deliberately so is what should be debated."


No case to answer, the charge just simply cannot be substantiated. All factual evidence points to the opposite of deliberate genocide.

"Your advocating for Hastings doesn't make a happorth of difference - not to me anyway."

The Hastings/Coogan thing just demonstrates your hypocrisy, bigotry and bias.

"You want to make a point about the Famine - do so."

I have done so, shooting down one argument of yours after another

"Don't compare it to other famines"

Ah only the Irish Famine counts eh? How parochial of you

"don't waffle about who invented coffin ships"

Nobody invented "Coffin" Ships Christmas it was a term already in use before the famine ever occurred, what was under discussion was the fact that the term did not originate with the Famine. Don't dare to presume to tell me what I can and cannot mention in conversation with others on this forum.

"come out from behind the reputations of 'prominent historians and address the facts"

Well you see Christmas on this topic all those prominent historians have studied the period and they have addressed the facts in far, far greater detail than either you or I have, and recognizing that reality I tend to be influenced by what they, not you have written and said on the subject.

So ALL attempts at relief were abandoned were they? That is at odds with what was actually done, the Government did not shut down all relief efforts and independent relief efforts such as those mounted by the Society of Friends and other continued their work.

"that is what lies at the heart of over a million deaths and a permanent culture of Irish emigration ever since."

"Aw Jayzus, here we are in two thousand and fourteen lads, and we've all got the f**k off out of it because of what those bastard Brits did damn near 170 years ago" – Just how pathetic can you get Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM

What has the word nationalist got to do with revisionist?

Revision means revising and possibly by that altering an original view, point, fact or hypothesis.

Nationalism means wearing a blazer in November and pretending an abstract construction such as country means something.

Playing black and white again are we Keith? Are you saying that to criticise the callous imperial mindset of The Westminster government means you are full square behind the romantic singing of The Clancy Brothers or Bobby Sands?

Add the word insulting to the list....


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:46 AM

Musket dear, I did not choose the terms.
Those are the terms used to describe the different schools of Irish History.
I am so sorry that you do not approve, and I am sure they are too.

Jim, I have used the terms correctly throughout and have tried to explain them to you several times.

I have no favoured historians or opinions on this period, but I know that opinions are divided and I hope that you have now learned that too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM

"ou are trying to infer or claim that 625,000 "
No I am not - I pointed out that that was the first year - a time when hastily acquired and unprepared ships were assembled to herd the undesirables onto ships unfit for purpose rather than feed them from the locked warehouses, house them on closed warehouses or prevent the corruption surrounding the famine relief boats - all a matter of choice really - continue and develop Peel's efforts or just ship the victims to nations who didn't really want them.
Mitchel's belief was propaganda for getting rid of an Empire which made such choices - I've no problem with that.
It doesn't alter what those choices were in one iota - uless of course, you are claiming that the warehouses were empty, the workhouses fully operational, no corruption was happening and no food being exported out of Ireland - wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
"The Hastings/Coogan thing just demonstrates your hypocrisy, bigotry and bias."
Then explain Keith's accepting Hastings as a Historian and Coogan as not - other than one fits your bill the other doesn't.
Hypocrisy writ large.
"So only Tim Pat Coogan has got substantive proof that Phlalethes and Charles Edward Trevelyan are indeed the same person"
Enough proof to publish the letter in full with dates and details AND NOT BE CHALLENGED BY ANY SINGLE HISTORIAN INCLUDING KENNEDY - WHO TOTALLY IGNORED IT WHEN COOGAN RAISED IT.
I should have thought a denial of Trevelian's authorship would have sent Coogan's case tumbling, don't you?
Trevelyan's letter has never been denied, just ignored for political expediency.
By the way, what is freely available is Trevelyan's re-iteration of his "God's punishment, indolent Irish" approach to his task in an autobiographical account of his work in Ireland some years later.
It was his view, he did what he did, Britain appointed him and backed what he did - result = one million dead, half a century of evictions and a century and a half plus of continuing emigration.
The Society of Friends and other charities were carrying out reliefe work to make up for the malicious neglect of Britain, who would no more "close them down" than would the powers that be today would prevent the work of Oxfam.
This in no way means that Britain didn't carry out a policy that led to waht it did - the more-than decimation of an entire nation.
Now answer some of the points and stop waffling
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 09:15 AM

no idea where the rest of the original post went...

BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular.

Anymore than I make excuses for the mean spirited politics and bigotry that allows hunger to exist in America - hardly an impoverish nation or in the grips of a famine- because of the greed of a privileged few that control an unreasonable amount of money and influenece... al so they can accumulate even more wealth than they already have. camel hell... a T-rex would have a better chance getting through that eye of a needle than some of these SOBs.

But that is human nature at its lowest, and I dare you to deny that such attitudes were not present in 1847 Britain... or that the quest for short term success was less important to the ruling classes than the welfare of the poor.

Forty years earlier, Britain managed to move troops and supplies in Europe during their wars with France & its allies... a daunting task... but they pulled it off. Where there's a will, there's a way... as the old saying goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

On "Coffin" Ships here is another possible contender for ships that could justly be called "Coffin" Ships – Look up Sir Edward Pine Coffin,

More likely William Sloane Coffin, T-Bird.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:10 AM

"Where there's a will, there's a way"
Exactly - The British Empire was incredibly wealthy at the time of the Famine - more than capable of relieving the suffering of the Irish people other than allowing them to die or forcing them to emigrate
There is no argument that these were the choices made - pretty obvious from the fact that neither of these comedians have responded to these facts.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM

All you have to do is transfer the situation in Ireland to say, Birmingham, and see if the decisions taken would have been acceptable, or even conceivable there THEY WOULD NOT.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:15 AM

There is no argument that these were the choices made

Yes there is.
Most historians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:45 AM

Sorry... this would read better as

"But that is human nature at its lowest, and I dare you to deny that such attitudes were not present in 1847 Britain... or assert that the quest for short term success was less important to the ruling classes than the welfare of the poor."

Food was exported from Ireland during the famine... and not by the starving poor, I dare say. Then who, pray tell?

And your premise: "Well yes logically it is easier to move people from a place in which all they will ever be able to do is subsist and suffer, with ever increasing frequency, chronic food shortages and unemployment." is based on what? That large sections of the Irish land mass somehow disappeared... or was made sterile? Or is is actually that large tracts of land had been "given" to political allies of the ruling British classes... leaving the Irish to be "tenants" in their own country, while the agricultural products were exported by enrich the coffers of the "new" land owners.

Don't worry, it's not like it hasn't been done elsewhere... America has nothing to be proud about when it comes to our treatment of Native Americans. The "lucky" survivors got stuck onto reservations... with high unemployment and other social ills that are "obviously" their own fault... for what? losing out to an overwhelming horde of European invaders?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 11:42 AM

"Most historians."
Which choices exactly are disputed -
Closing warehouses - don't think so.
Closing warehouses - nope - definitely happened.
Laissez-faire policy - nope, down in black and white
Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish - likewise
The British Government appointing such a man to feed the people he hated - a million corpses to confirm this.
Coffin ship casualties - done and dusted
Irish left only the choice of dying or leaving Ireland - ancient history
Being racially abused both in England and America - libraries full of books on the subject.
Murderous evictions leaving thousands of families to starve on the roadside (a practice which continued to the end of the 19th century) - a legacy to prove it.
Your and your blustering mate's refusal to even acknowledge a single one of these doesn't mean they didn't happen - only that you support them having happened and would no doubt, should such circumstances recur, do so again
Rule Britannia
Yup - definitely a Dalek
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 01:39 PM

That second should read 'closing workhouses' - happened
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 02:59 PM

This isn't fair you know Keith...

Every time I call you a soft cunt, some soft cunt of a moderator removes the post.

Yet you can insult our intelligence all day. I suppose the dumbing down on TV had to reach internet debate too eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:56 PM

The Revisionist historians, the dominant view, do not support your case Jim.
As Kinealy said,"Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:40 AM

"The Revisionist historians, the dominant view, do not support your case Jim."
You vindictively opened this thread to score a point.
You've clung on to some mythological 'opposition' by some mythological 'historians' (all the ones you have named so far have proved to be saying the opposite to your pro-Empire case) to keep this thread open.
I have laid out all the information I have and asked you to challenge it
I have offered to revise my note to the song that all this started with (Skibbereen) if you show me where I have gone wrong.
Your response is to continue to skulk behind a manufactured case based on historians you haven't read and, because you have no interest in this (or any subject you choose to vandalise) will never read.
I have invited you to show us where those things I listed - the factors that allowed a million people to starve and tore apart a nation in order to profit an Empire - are wrong.
You ignore that invitation, so you have no case; you have never had a case, and you never will until you actually attempt to learn something about these topics you leech onto.
Once again (25 Mar 14 - 11:42 AM ) answer the points or go away.
I have little doubt that you will refuse to do so and will go on to have your customary last word.
You really are one disturbed and disturbing individual
You need to ask yourself why you are a member of this forum and why you persist on doing the damage that you persist on doing to these discussions
Please go away - you are a mess
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:45 AM

I am not arguing History, I am discussing historiography.

My case is just that historians are divided on these issues, and that is a fact.

You can not deny that fact, but neither can you bear to have it posted.

That is how a simple statement of fact by me has reduced you and Musket to mindless abuse and name-calling.

I have nothing else to say on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:52 AM

Ah Christmas:

1: Very pleased to read that you do not think that 625,000 people died crossing the Atlantic and for confirming that the 125,000 figure you stated was untypical as stated by Joel Mokyr.

2: Who assembled hastily acquired and unprepared ships? Not the British Government. By the way there was nothing hasty at all about the trans-Atlantic timber trade and the trade in goods between Canada and America and Great Britain.

3: Neither the United States of America or Canada would have been built or established as the countries they are today without the influx of immigrants. Those nations desperately wanted them the people who lived in the landing port cities did not.

4: Very pleased to hear that you consider Mitchel's work on the subject to be purely propaganda and should be ignored as a source of reliable information with respect to this subject.

5: The concept of the workhouse was introduced to Ireland in 1838. By 1845 there were 128 workhouses in Ireland, by the end of the famine there were 163 of them. A question for you Christmas. If all the workhouses were closed in 1846 as you say, what were the additional 35 workhouses built for, and who built them?

6: IIRC Christmas it was yourself that proposed Tim Pat Coogan as a bona fide Historian and dismissed Hastings because he was a tabloid journalist. I pulled you up on your hypocritical double standard (Not for the first time and I am sure it will not be for the last)

7: I don't think Sir Charles Edward Trevelyan is in any state to sue Tim Pat Coogan for defamation or libel. But didn't you state that you had tried to find any corroborative evidence of the letter and proof that it was written by Trevelyan but could find nothing whatsoever?? As far as I can see there is no proof at all. Does it have to be challenged? No. Does the lack of a challenge indicate that it must be authentic? Again No.

8: "I should have thought a denial of Trevelyan's authorship would have sent Coogan's case tumbling, don't you?"

Ehmm Christmas the letter was sent under a pseudonym, you said. Who can authoritatively deny or confirm it? If the letter has been ignored by contemporaries and historians it was probably because it was deemed to be irrelevant. There is no mention of his "fact finding mission" to Ireland in 1843 and no reference to any connection between Philalethes and Charles Edward Trevelyan. But if there was such a mission entrusted to a senior civil servant then the fact that his report details some extremely honest opinions voiced as pretty unpalatable truths that should come as no surprise (Modern day equivalent – Wikileaks diplomatic cables?)

The Trevelyan letter to Lord Mounteagle castigates the land owners in Ireland NOT the people, not surprised that you haven't picked up on that as it does not comply to your prejudices. In the popular thinking of the time as previously stated the "God's punishment" was pretty common not only amongst the rich and powerful but also amongst the Irish people and the Roman Catholic Clergy ministering to them. That by the way was another fact that you conveniently ignore as you vector in on Trevelyan.

"Indolent Irish"? Refer to Professor Joel Mokyr he paints a picture that explains why things happened the way they did, your inference that all things were sweetness and light prior to the arrival of the famine and that evil Great Britain took advantage , is a monstrous misrepresentation. If the famine was a case of deliberate genocide then the British Government made a pretty ham-fisted attempt at it don't you think? Surely if it was deliberate then they would have killed people off with far greater efficiency? I mean 5,000 trips across the Atlantic and only 59 ships sink? Why not all of them? That would certainly have been within their power and competence.

The problem is that you and sciencegeek look at the period and apply 21st century thinking to it. Your paucity of solutions practicable at the time is the best indication of this. You also ignore facts that work against you with a perverseness that defies belief.

1: Britain should have closed Irish ports to export of domestically grown foodstuffs

This would have hit and harmed those producing the food and not all food grown in Ireland was exported. The production figures for home grown produce in Ireland fell dramatically during the Famine years while the imports of products particularly cereals expanded enormously. The repeal of the Corn Laws allowed that to happen. Had the Corn Laws not been repealed then the effects of the famine would have been worse but Peel's Tory Government would have remained in power. Peel crashed his Government on purpose to give the people of the United Kingdom a voice and that election returned Russell's Whig government. The hand-over of the handling of the situation in Ireland was smooth, and NO Christmas, NOT ALL Government aid was stopped.

2: Irish crops should have been sent to the parts of Ireland affected by the blight.

Yes fantastic idea as long as you can actually transport the stuff there and get it distributed before it rots. The physical means of transportation simply did not exist so that blows that "remedy" out of the water. Did they try to get food to where it was needed? Damn right they did. Was the lack of food the thing that was killing the people – NO IT WAS NOT, and the means to counter what was actually killing people was not understood until THIRTY YEARS AFTER the end of the famine. Typhoid was a killer taking crowned heads of Europe as well as the poorest in society.

3: Public works? Ask any farmer how walls benefit windswept fields. "Roads to nowhere"? Well they didn't lead to nowhere back in the late 1840s and if you are going to bring in food to distribute you have to roads that can allow transportation by wagons – cart or pony tracks just don't hack it.

4: Could things have remained as they had been in Ireland? No most certainly they could not. The series of famines that preceded that of 1845 and the burgeoning population all tied to land that simply could not support them was only going to perpetuate the problem and exacerbate it with increasing frequency. As I have stated before not even sheep are stupid enough to remain on hills with no grazing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 04:05 AM

You know, there is a world if difference between mindless abuse and abusing the mindless.

As you seem to be so wedded to absurdity, how can anyone act otherwise? You won't listen to reason, you infuriate people by saying disagreement with you makes them. "Wrong" and continually find sympathetic quotes rather use your intelligence and give us a Keith analysis. When someone states their own view, you want to know where they got it from. That alone sums you up.

I wouldn't call it abuse, I'd say people are being ultimately kind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 04:07 AM

"I have nothing else to say on this."
You never have had - just Imperialistic rantings
"Very pleased to hear that you consider Mitchel's work on the subject to be purely propaganda and should be ignored as a source of reliable information with respect to this subject."
I didn't say that so please stop distorting what |I did say.
Mitchel used the factual behavior of the British Government to further the cause of Irish Independence, for which he has my respect.
Everything else is waffle and denial.
You have the facts of the famine - I make the same invitation that Keith has just done a runner from
Which choices exactly are disputed -
Closing warehouses - don't think so.
Closing workhouses - nope - definitely happened.
Laissez-faire policy - nope, down in black and white
Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish - likewise
The British Government appointing such a man to feed the people he hated - a million corpses to confirm this.
Coffin ship casualties - done and dusted
Irish left only the choice of dying or leaving Ireland - ancient history
Being racially abused both in England and America - libraries full of books on the subject.
Murderous evictions leaving thousands of families to starve on the roadside (a practice which continued to the end of the 19th century) - a legacy to prove it.
Your hit and run bullying and blustering bullshit may impress your mates around closing time but it really doesn't alter anything.
The factors I have listed turned a natural disaster into a holocaust - disprove them or GFY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

You never have had - just Imperialistic rantings

A lie Jim.
Nothing I have said could be described thus.

My case was just that historians are divided on these issues, and that is a fact.

You can not deny that fact, but neither can you tolerate it being posted, so here we are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

"Joel Mokyr's Why Ireland Starved took pains to refute the Malthusian
argument that the Famine was inevitable due to the overpopulation of
pre-Famine Ireland. Indeed, Mokyr found that "there is no evidence
that prefamine Ireland was overpopulated in any useful sense of the
word. This is important, as Cullen's argument regarding the irrele-
vance of the Famine was essentially Malthusian"
This is an assessment of the Ireland that was developed under colonial rule - Mokyr is one of those cited
THE IMPACT OF COLONISATION ON THE ISLAND OF IRELAND – FAMINE AND EMIGRATION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM

Sciencegeek:

1: "my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight"

And where was this knowledge centred? Where was it accessible and to whom? After all there was no Ministry of Agriculture in the British Government of the day, no Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. So who was it in a position of power to direct things that would have seized on the humble swede as the means to come galloping to the rescue – Rhetorical question sciencegeek there was nothing in place, there was nobody in place to make such a thing happen – There was no BIG GOVERNMENT anywhere in those days – people were brought up to be self-reliant, it was considered a virtue, charity was based on a parochial system of Parishes and was not seen as the job of Government.

2: "I also indicated that some of the well meant relief efforts failed because of ignorance."

Ah so not the deliberate machinations of an evil government hell bent on genocide then? Not the line that Carroll is trying to peddle.

3: "BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular."

The famine as viewed through 21st century eyes, mind you having said that, there is a possible modern day parallel – Afghanistan.
Today we have the "war weary West" willing to leave Afghanistan never to return utterly disgusted by the apparent lack shown by the Afghans of showing any willingness to help themselves. We will leave in full belief and expectation of many that the second the international community departs Afghanistan will descend into yet another decade or more of violence and barbarism – how about that for matching a reflection of "callous indifference" to the suffering of others (With the known precedent that when exactly the same thing was done in 1989, 6 million people suffered for it, repeated this time on the same scale it will more like 12 million). Prevailing prejudice against Muslims in particular? Are there any reasons that you could possibly identify for the average man in the street to harbour those prejudices?

Callous indifference must not be confused with the inability to cope or deal with a problem that has run away from you. Those in power can only do what can physically be done – that is true in disasters that occur in modern times with all our technological advantages.

Judging by the contributions raised by the British public during the famine and by the unprecedented financial assistance given by the British Government at the time, I can see no real evidence of there being prejudice against the Irish as a nation. Prejudice against and mistrust of Roman Catholics throughout mainland Britain was unfortunately very real and deeply seated in the history of mainland Britain, as it was in quite a few other countries the USA being one of them – it was the real politik of the era.

In your outburst against the rich and successful in the USA, I notice you do not describe it as an attempted genocide against the poor, or any other ethnic group by your Government, yet you feel free to throw accusations at a foreign government dealing with an unprecedented crisis about 170 years ago!!

4: "Forty years earlier, Britain managed to move troops and supplies in Europe during their wars with France & its allies... a daunting task... but they pulled it off. Where there's a will, there's a way... as the old saying goes."

Oh sciencegeek, thank you, thank you, thank you, for drawing this (Napoleonic Wars) into the discussion. You have hit upon my specialist subject, which supports everything I have said to do with the transport and logistical problems faced.

"An Army marches on its stomach" was attributed to Napoleon who also instructed his Marshals that their armies must feed off the land – that latter bit was why they tended to lose (Even on French soil) when up against Wellington.

Wellington had learned command of troops and more significantly the art of campaigning in India. And what he learned there was that you have to carry everything with you, that you must never strip the food from the local inhabitants and that you must pay for anything that you do take, most important of all, he discovered the importance of the Ox-cart. There are many memoirs written by both soldiers and officers who fought and campaigned in the Peninsula with Wellington. The one thing that runs common through them all was that when talking about the predominating sound of the campaigns in Portugal and Spain, they all say the same thing – The squeak of axles and the creak of Ox-carts.

I asked you once before about what would be required to transport a fully loaded wagon a distance of 30 miles and bring it back. In a country bereft of food the effort is staggering. Wellington in fighting the French fully appreciated the difficulties.

A battery of six guns required between 160 to 200 horses and over forty wagons to keep it in the field. Armies of the period could only remain assembled for about three days at the utmost other-wise they starved, their rate of advance depending upon the time of year, the ground over which they were advancing, the quality of the maps available and the existence or absence of roads was roughly 12 to 18 miles per day. OK then sciencegeek how does the mountainous and boggy wilds of western Ireland match up to the vast flat plains of Castille? Camped for just over one month outside the Lines of Torres Vedras built by Wellington to defend Lisbon, the French Commander Massena, the most capable of Napoleon's Generals, never even attempted to attack them, yet he lost over 25,000 men to hunger and disease in the countryside laid bare by the Portuguese. Now multiply that by 12 and you have more dead Frenchmen than you had dead Irish men , women and children in "Black '47" by quite a margin.

Now then sciencegeek in those forty years things had not really advanced that much, especially in Ireland so where were the British Government and those in charge of aid distribution going to get the thousands of horses and the hundreds of wagons needed. Where were they going to get the thousands of tons of grain to feed those horses? Where were they going to get the required number of blacksmiths, farriers and wheelwrights? All that before you have even got so much as one meal to one family in need – Piece of cake really isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 07:27 AM

Smoke and mirrors Terminus
Britain simply refused to deal with a famine which had was the consequence of an economy it had imposed on Ireland - a peasant economy based on subsistence existence.
The link you are studiously ignoring shows how Britian, in the midst of the Famine, took the decision to pursue that economy via its laissez-faire policy and use the effect that this had on the Irish population to thin out the dissidents in order to create an "efficient" (subservient) workforce which benefited the Empire - this is exactly what was behind Trevelyan's (3 times repeated) statement that the Famine was an opportunity to rid Ireland of its undesirables.
It was well within the Empires economy and power to ride out the effects of the Famine simply by the continuance and development of Peels' humanitarian policy - instead they decided to depopulate Ireland by (once again), closure of workhouses and warehouses, continuance of food exports, continuance of the laissez-faire policy which had already created subsistence-level conditions among the rural population, forced emigration - finally, the coup de grace - a military-backed, long term policy of mass evictions - it was a calculated plan to bring Ireland to heel - and Trevelyan stated that in so many words.
The long term effects of the Famine could have been overcome with a reformed agrarian economy, instead, the vacated lands were turned over to absentee landlords to continue to exploit them for personal gain and recreation.
No effort was made to feed the starving Irish population, there was no cessation of food exports, no attempts to stop profiteering - just a policy of 'starve or emigrate' - simple as that.
Trevelyan quote from Woodham Smith.
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"
I assume you will ignore this as you have ignored all the other points put before you -that's what you do best, in fact, it is the only thing you do
Jim Carroll (Christmas to you)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 08:44 AM

T... Your arguments would be more persuasive if you were not so narrowly focused on the singular point of denying ANY cuplability of the British rulling classes... the government at the time, if you will.

Your srgument against "1: "my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight"

is based on a typo... "on one" should read "no one" and if you had actually been paying attention to the previous posts that I made, it should have been a no-brainer...

as for the logistics issue... a scholar of the Napoleonic Wars should know that as difficult as it was... IT WAS DONE. Britain got off its ass and waged what was arguably one of the earliest world wars - considering the number of nations involved and the geographic scope of the conflict. They did not "give it a try" and then go home with a sigh and say "oh well, what can you do?"...

Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if nations waged peace with the same enthusiasm as they do conquest.

You just continue with your quibbling... booooring....


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM

I normally do not respond Christmas because what you write is normally a complete and utter load of B'll'cks.

Example:
"It was well within the Empires economy and power to ride out the effects of the Famine simply by the continuance and development of Peels' humanitarian policy"

So are you saying that Black '47 would not have occurred if Peel's humanitarian effort had continued even although by 1846 it was obvious that it just could not cope? Once more I will tell you - People were NOT dying of HUNGER.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:07 AM

"So are you saying that Black '47 "
I am saying no such thing - I am saying that the Russell Govennment chose the policy that decimated Ireland
Stop putting words im my mouth
Your Bar-rrom bluster only manages to convince me that you are totally out of your depth here
Answer the points and save your bullshit for closing time - it doesn't impress.
You have the evidence - even from your own experts - ant there's plenty more for you to ignore if you want it.
I'd never read Mokyr before you put him up - fascinating man
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM

Sorry - missed a bit
British policy summed up
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM

1: "Your srgument against "1: "my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight"

is based on a typo... "on one" should read "no one" and if you had actually been paying attention to the previous posts that I made, it should have been a no-brainer"


If you wish to make a point you should at least take the trouble and pay sufficient attention to correcting your mistakes before pressing the submit button - Pardon me for not guessing what it was you actually meant to write.

2: "Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if nations waged peace with the same enthusiasm as they do conquest."

Yes it most certainly would - Now tell me when you've managed to arrange that and I'll cheer with the rest.

3: "as for the logistics issue... a scholar of the Napoleonic Wars should know that as difficult as it was... IT WAS DONE. Britain got off its ass and waged what was arguably one of the earliest world wars - considering the number of nations involved and the geographic scope of the conflict. They did not "give it a try" and then go home with a sigh and say "oh well, what can you do?"

Yes it was done, by Great Britain on a massive scale at sea, and on a minute but extremely significant scale on land. That latter land part was always as part of a far greater effort by Allies that Great Britain funded and kept supplied - So please sciencegeek get things in perspective.

As for your comment that - They did not "give it a try" and then go home with a sigh and say "oh well, what can you do?" I hate to disillusion you but they did precisely that time and time again. Know where the children's song "The Grand Old Duke of York" comes from? Do you know what it was about?

Yes sciencegeek it was done EVENTUALLY both in Portugal and in Spain always using the main access roads and routes with the Royal Navy in support and relying on well established ports up and down the coast it took SIX years to get right and the effort required to mount the relief effort in Ireland you seem to imagine possible would have taken far more in terms of resources (Remember Wellington's Peninsular Army was very small - minute by European standards of the day).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM

I am discussing historiography.

Amusing. You don't know the meaning of the word, Fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:49 AM

And answer came there none - which is an answer in itself
Jim Carroll
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

"Joel Mokyr's Why Ireland Starved took pains to refute the Malthusian argument that the Famine was inevitable due to the overpopulation of pre-Famine Ireland. Indeed, Mokyr found that "there is no evidence that prefamine Ireland was overpopulated in any useful sense of the word. This is important, as Cullen's argument regarding the irrelevance of the Famine was essentially Malthusian" - as posted by Jim Carroll

Really?? Because here is what Joel Mokyr and Cormac O Grada wrote in their paper "Famine Disease and Famine Mortality: Lessons from Ireland, 1845 -1850" dated 30th June 1999:

"The Irish famine was not caused by war but by a series of catastrophic crop failures. Its impact was very uneven across regions and classes, but the virtual destruction of the people's main subsistence crop, the potato, for a number of successive years dominated "entitlement" considerations. This, then, was a real famine
in the old-fashioned sense of the word and not a case in which, following Alex de Waal's distinction, a "scarcity" was being confounded with a "famine" (de Waal 1989: 25-28). The Irish famine was a disaster with strong Malthusian features: a catastrophic reduction of the food supply led to major demographic re-adjustment.


So which one is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

"Yes sciencegeek it was done EVENTUALLY both in Portugal and in Spain always using the main access roads and routes with the Royal Navy in support and relying on well established ports up and down the coast it took SIX years to get right and the effort required to mount the relief effort in Ireland you seem to imagine possible would have taken far more in terms of resources (Remember Wellington's Peninsular Army was very small - minute by European standards of the day)."

More fruit salad from the great "let's compare apples to oranges" viewpoint.

Ireland: Land area: 26,598 sq mi (68,889 sq km); total area: 27,135 sq mi (70,280 sq km)


Portugal: Land area: 35,382 sq mi (91,639 sq km); total area: 35,672 sq mi (92,391 sq km).

so a basically unarmed country, smaller than Portugal, would require vast logistical efforts the equal to waging war???

what were they going to do? pelt them with rotting potatos???

they needed good roads because they were hauling cannon & munitions along with food supplies. I never said it would be easy, I said it could be done if the will to do so were there.

In the same time period the Admiralty offered a reward of £20,000 (£1.56 million in 2009 money) "to any Party or Parties, of any country, who shall render assistance to the crews of the Discovery Ships under the command of Sir John Franklin".

To which I am sure the response will be... "why should the Admiralty be responsible for famine relief?".

My point being that the money was there for what concerned them. And that concern was not the welfare of the starving Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Don't know about you Christmas but that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion - In what way could it be possibly construed as a "Policy" (Def: Plan of action to achieve a stated and defined objective).

By the way Charles Edward Trevelyan as a senior civil servant would not set any British Government Policy, that being the sole responsibility of the elected Government of the day. Charles Edward Trevelyan would on the other hand have to carry out any such policy as it affected his stated duties and responsibilities. I thought that I had to explain that Christmas as you earlier posted somewhere that you believed that Trevelyan was running the show entirely off his own bat and was passing orders to Charles Wood and John Russell (Chancellor of the Exchequer and Prime Minister of the elected Government of the United Kingdom respectively) Always helps a discussion if people actually know what end is actually up - prevents the establishment of ludicrous and inaccurate ideas (Christmas is plagued with them constantly).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:58 AM

"Ireland: Land area: 26,598 sq mi (68,889 sq km); total area: 27,135 sq mi (70,280 sq km)
Portugal: Land area: 35,382 sq mi (91,639 sq km); total area: 35,672 sq mi (92,391 sq km).
so a basically unarmed country, smaller than Portugal, would require vast logistical efforts the equal to waging war???


Yes that would be about right, as the British in Portugal had only to feed, provision and supply about 55,000 men at the utmost. To do so in Portugal they had all the ports, and all the main roads. At the time they also had the produce of their allies, Portugal and Spain, to rely on.

Now how many were "starving" and dying of disease in Ireland again? (Wasn't it supposed to be about one million or more wasn't it?) Or doesn't that number, or the scale of the operation, matter, or register with you - you muppet!!

" In the same time period the Admiralty offered a reward of £20,000 (£1.56 million in 2009 money) "to any Party or Parties, of any country, who shall render assistance to the crews of the Discovery Ships under the command of Sir John Franklin".
To which I am sure the response will be... "why should the Admiralty be responsible for famine relief?"


Ehmm No sciencegeek that would not be my response. My response would be in expressing complete and utter amazement that you find it so utterly incomprehensible that the Royal Navy would offer a reward to those who could render assistance with regard to establishing the fate of two missing Royal Navy Vessels and effecting the rescue of their crews? - What is that praiseworthy ethos often trotted out over in the US by members of your military? – No Man Left Behind - see any parallel?

As for money being available £9.95 million (Over one billion today) was spent by the British Government, the next closest contributor to that was the money raised by the Society of Friends roughly £1 million. All the other contributors lumped together did not raise one-third of the money spent by the British Government. You seem to suffer from an astounding lack of perspective for someone who contributes under the name sciencegeek.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 11:11 AM

"Don't know about you Christmas but that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion "
That was the opinion of a policy making Government employee who opposed government policy of increasing aid to the extent that the Government abandoned its plans - his statement reflected government policy and he was awarded for his services in Ireland.
He expressed his opinions before, during and after the Famine - his philosophy was put into practice and one million died - end of story
Stop kicking the milkman's horse.
You are obviously not going to address one single point of Government policy, which is fine - watching you squirm and wiggle is answer enough
The document you cite on Famine causes points out that it was the manner in which the economy had been developed that caused the outcome of the Famine - plenty of other examples to draw from on that one - Sussex Uni, Derry Uni, Belfast Uni, Cork Uni - take your pick
Stop bullshitting and address the facts that have been put before you
You really are as cack-handed as Keith at this, aren't you?
Jim Carroll (Christmas, to you)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:15 PM

What do you mean, "cack handed" Jim?

My case was just that historians are divided on these issues, which is a fact, and I think I expressed it very concisely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:18 PM

What,even the esteemed ones?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:51 PM

"You seem to suffer from an astounding lack of perspective for someone who contributes under the name sciencegeek."

I fear the lack of perspective in on your end...

the ability to only draw conclusions that support your case by distorting any opposing arguments... do you play card games with the same honesty?

Spain & Portugal fluctuated from neutral to allies to opponants... pick a year.

They are also part of a pennisula...

so if a pennisula has ports... how many do you think an ISLAND like Ireland has??? Actually, you don't have to guess... just google..

But the above is in response to your irrelevent dithering....

however, this is what is relevent:

food was exported from Ireland

it was transported to ports & onto ships for export

it was not all grown within a days easy travel to those ports


so I say that it is you who has to explain why food can leave the country, but it too difficult to import & distribute.

or why food grown in Iireland could not have been purchased & distributed locally? or at least transported from the growing areas to those areas of need.

Nobody is asserting that a famine does not have casualties... the argument that I see is that the casualties were far higher than they should have been, in part because of a prevailing attitude among the upper classes that controlled policy and money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM

"What do you mean, "cack handed" Jim?"
You've not been taking your pills again, have you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:22 PM

30 miles to food..get a runner to tell starving people there is food 30 miles away and some will find a way to get to it and some will die trying. They walked that far and more to the ships that would take them to Liverpool. They walked that far and more to the workhouses. It is said that men ran uphill from Dingle to Tralee for the price of a pouch of tobacco..this is before they were starving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:53 PM

For fuck's sake loads, President Ml.D. Higgins will be over to the UK in a few weeks. Can we have a truce?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:12 AM

"I fear the lack of perspective in on your end... "

Really?? Here are a few examples that indicate the reverse:

1: "Spain & Portugal fluctuated from neutral to allies to opponents... pick a year."

The oldest and most constant alliance in Europe? That between England and Portugal. Spain were allied with the French, motivated by a desire to regain possessions lost to the British during your War of Independence, until Napoleon forced the rightful King of Spain to abdicate and then put his brother on the throne. From 1808, when the British first landed troops in Portugal, until Napoleon's final defeat in 1815, the Spanish were our allies. Your point is irrelevant, and it displays not only lack of perspective but an astonishing lack of knowledge.

2: "so if a pennisula has ports... how many do you think an ISLAND like Ireland has??? Actually, you don't have to guess... just google.. "

No need to guess and it is you who should do the "Googling". Ireland has many ports, it had many ports at the time we are discussing. Only problem was that they happened to be on the wrong side of the country. Again amazing lack of knowledge and understanding of the problems involved.

3: "this is what is relevant: food was exported from Ireland …… it was transported to ports & onto ships for export ….. it was not all grown within a days easy travel to those ports."

Your lack of perspective and knowledge displayed yet again. Over the period of the famine Irish food exports declined greatly and Irish import of food increased dramatically. There is a very good map showing the extent of the effects of the famine. Looking at that map you will see that the areas least affected tended to be the areas close to those eastern ports and the areas that had decent roads.

4: "so I say that it is you who has to explain why food can leave the country, but it too difficult to import & distribute.

or why food grown in Ireland could not have been purchased & distributed locally? or at least transported from the growing areas to those areas of need."


1840s – right?:

- No refrigeration, no freezers, only methods of preserving food are to dry, smoke, pickle or salt – all take time, all cost money to the producer, all require storage, and not all are suitable means of preservation for the country in question because of climate. So generally crops were harvested and beasts slaughtered and they were sold fresh, or in the case of livestock delivered on the hoof in which case the animals need feeding on the way. The decision to do this is not one taken by Government, or dictated by Government policy, they are decisions taken by the man actually farming the land - Not necessarily the owner of the land.

- Ireland's main trading partner has always been mainland Britain (Ireland's entry into the Common Market was conditional on Britain being allowed in). That is why most of Ireland's best developed ports and cities happen to be on its eastern seaboard – Cork, Dungarvan, Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow, Dublin, Balbriggan, Dundalk, Newry, Belfast. It is evident even today, look at the port facilities in Ireland, much better in the east. Of the ports that do exist on Ireland's western seaboard take a look at the bearing strength of the quays there compared to those of its eastern ports, a reason why Ireland's offshore oil & gas industry is located in the Irish sea and not in the Atlantic, and why any exploration off its Atlantic coast is based out of eastern ports.

- Weather, the prevailing winds are South Westerly making the west coast of Ireland stormbound compared to the more sheltered east coast – So where do you expect ports to be built?

- Population, the eastern side of the country was easier to farm and live in, it was therefore more heavily populated than the west – So where do you expect to find the cities and ports?

- Because those ports are trading ports good roads are essential to allow the transport of goods, livestock and crops – So there is a means of distribution for both exports and imports – sound rational enough for you?

- Over on the west coast there were only two ports developed to any extent Limerick and Galway, the hinterland around them did not consist of rich farmland, it had no large export trade, there were no good roads or bridges that provided easy access to that hinterland.

Now does any of that register? Does that answer your questions with regard to distribution – Simply no means of distributing it existed in the period in question in the west of Ireland.

5: "that the casualties were far higher than they should have been, in part because of a prevailing attitude among the upper classes that controlled policy and money."

As apparently none of you have bothered to read the letter that Charles Edward Trevelyan wrote in answer to Lord Mounteagle I will copy it out in full – Now honest opinion having read it through, who is it that Trevelyan is coming down heaviest on in his criticism of the situation in Ireland – the Irish land-owners or their tenants?

To the Right Hon. Lord Mounteagle

My Dear Lord,

I have had the pleasure of receiving your letter dated 1 inst., and before proceeding to the subjects more particularly treated in it, I must beg of you to dismiss all doubt from your mind of the magnitude of the existing calamity and its danger not being fully known and appreciated in Downing Street.

The government establishments are strained to the utmost to alleviate this great calamity and avert this danger, as far as it is in the power of government to do so; and in the whole course of my public service, I never witnessed such entire self-devotion and such hearty and cordial co-operation on the part of officers belonging to different departments met together from different parts of the world, as I see on this occasion.

My purchases are carried to the utmost point short of transferring the famine from Ireland to England and giving rise to a counter popular pressure here, which it would be the more difficult to resist because it would be founded on strong considerations of justice.

But I need not remind your lordship that the ability even of the most powerful government is extremely limited in dealing with a social evil of this description. It forms no part of the functions of government to provide supplies of food or to increase the productive powers of the land. In the great institutions of the business of society, it falls to the share of government to protect the merchant and the agriculturist in the free exercise of their respective employments, but not itself to carry on these employments; and the condition of a community depends upon the result of the efforts which each member of it makes in his private and individual capacity. …

In Ireland the habit has proverbially been to follow a precisely opposite course, and the events of the last six weeks furnish a remarkable illustration of what I do not hesitate to call this defective part of the national character. The nobility and the gentry have met in their respective baronies, and beyond making presentments required by law, they have, with rare exceptions, confined themselves to memorials and deputations calling upon the government to do everything, as if they have themselves no part to perform in this great crisis of the country. The government is expected to open shops for the sale of food in every part of Ireland, to make all the railroads in Ireland, and to drain and improve the whole of the land of Ireland, to the extent of superseding the proprietor in the management of his own estate, and arranging with his tenants the terms on which the rent etc. is to be adjusted. …

I must give expression to my feelings by saying that I think I see a bright light shining in the distance through the dark cloud which at present hangs over Ireland. A remedy has already been applied to that portion of the maladies of Ireland which was traceable to political causes, and the morbid habits which still to a certain extent survive are gradually giving way to more healthy action. The deep and inveterate root of social evil remains, and I hope I am not guilty of irreverence in thinking that, this being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure has been applied by the direct stroke of an all-wise Providence in a manner as unexpected and unthought as it is likely to be effectual. God grant that we may rightly perform our part, and not turn into a curse what was intended for a blessing. The ministers of religion and especially the pastors of the Roman Catholic Church, who possess the largest share of influence over the people of Ireland, have well performed their part; and although few indications appear from any proceedings which have yet come before the public that the landed proprietors have even taken the first step of preparing for the conversion of the land now laid down to potatoes to grain cultivation, I do not despair of seeing this class of society still taking the lead which their position requires of them, and preventing the social revolution from being so extensive as it otherwise must become.

Believe me, my dear lord, yours very sincerely,

C. E. Trevelyan. Treasury, 9 October 1846.


Don't know about you but it seems to me that he is taking the land-owners to task for not playing their part. Not surprising really as the Devon Commission Report of 1845 came to the same conclusion – Use of land in Ireland, i.e. how the land was farmed, had to be addressed and tenancy conditions had to be improved to benefit the tenant were reforms that had to be carried out urgently. It was just after this report was presented that the famine first struck.

Government response was to repeal the Corn Laws which had previously made it impossible to import foreign corn and controlled artificially high prices for farmers throughout the United Kingdom including Ireland – because of the repeal of the existing Corn Laws the market set the price for corn and cereals (laissez-faire) but it made it easier and cheaper to import corn from abroad. The second part, to address tenancy issues required the passing of a Catholic Emancipation Act. Peel's Tory Government was split on the first issue and the Corn Laws were repealed only with the help of the Opposition. When the Catholic Emancipation Bill came before the House, the Whigs led by John Russell acted as the Opposition were supposed to and voted against, while certain members of the Tory Party took revenge on Peel for the repeal of the Corn Laws and voted with the Opposition causing Peels Government to collapse. In the ensuing General Election Lord John Russell's Whigs were elected to form a Government. By this stage the situation in Ireland had completely outstripped any possibility of direct aid coping and it became plainly obvious that people did just have to move, or die.

So far I have not heard one single practicable solution that the Government should have or could have followed, that they were not already doing. Were mistakes made? Yes of course they were. Could it have been managed better? With hindsight yes, but this disaster was unprecedented in scale and not one single government on the planet at the time was geared up to cope with it. Was there a deliberate policy of genocide put into practice by the British Government? No of course there wasn't and every indication of what was done supports that. If there was a deliberate policy of genocide in place you do not:

- Spend £9.95 million pounds on relief efforts;

- Directly feed 3 million people (Who you are supposedly trying to kill);

- Put three-quarter of a million people (Who you are trying to kill) on work schemes to provide those people with food and a wage;

- You do not provide subsidised passage to assist emigration;

- You do not increase the number of workhouse places by nearly 30% to look after the poor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:49 AM

Read the Trevelyan letter, the previous long letter and the quote from his later autobiography - all of which express a hatred of the Irish people and a belief that The Famine was not only God's punishment for their evil ways but also an opportunity to rid Ireland of dissidents and undesirables
On its own, it wouldn't matter, it was a view shared by many British leaders - it was presented as a picture of the Irish people in Punch Magazine - still plenty of examples to be had.
What is important was, that knowing Trevelyan's views, they appointed him to a position vital to keep the Irish people alive, they backed his every move, they even abandoned Government policy of providing more relief because he opposed it.
Whatever his mouthings on 'helping the poor Irish' he oversaw the death of over a million people and he facilitated the removal from Ireland of more than a million more.
His policy is, as has been stated; close the workhouses, close the foodstores, oppose with military force any attempts by the starving Irish to feed themselves (go and look up the warehouse riots), and force mass emigration.
That was Government policy, pure and simple.
A possible reason for why the British Government adopted that policy can be seen in the later mass evictions, where the poorer farmers were replaced by wealthy profiteering landowners, essentially giving them control of the land most beneficial to The British Empire - a full economic colonisation of Ireland.
Britain was in the position to help allow Ireland survive the Blight with humanitarian aid - it chose not to; instead it backed the market economy and in the course of doing that, decimated Ireland - at the very least, manslaughter in any court.
You have studiously avoided discussing actual British police, toy have refused to comment on the evictions - now you are setting out to make the helmsman of a British policy in Ireland that led to the deaths of over a million people some sort of a humanitarian hero - give us a break and answer the questions (some hope!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 05:03 AM

Christmas:

Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY - they didn't in the 1840s and they don't now - they never have. Government policy is formulated and set by the elected Government of the country, that policy having been set it is then handed to the Civil Service whose duty it is ensure that it is implemented as directed. Now IF you have evidence to correct that statement then please provide it. If you cannot do that, then please STFU about civil servants setting and dictating policy. Should you continue to insist that the Government's policy was set by Trevelyan during the period he spent at the Treasury then you are knowingly and deliberately telling a lie.

Guest mg That was basically what was done, once the problem got to the point that basic relief (i.e. providing food) was not coping. The logistical problems of getting food to the people were too great so the people came to where the food could be delivered. Trouble was that having got there they could not just simply stay there and be fed, their presence combined with the continuing influx of those seeking help would have rapidly overwhelmed the facilities in place, and that did often happen. A factor that can be seen even today in refugee camps and food distribution centres covering famine zones. So it a staged process had to be created:

1: Initial help - Sustain life
2: Work scheme - Provide money and food, to allow next stage in the process
3: Move - To work in town or city or emigrate

As a Government you do not go to the trouble and the expense of setting that sort of system up if you are trying to implement a deliberate policy of genocide - It just simply would not make any sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 05:07 AM

it was presented as a picture of the Irish people in Punch Magazine - still plenty of examples to be had.

Perhaps you could produce some.
I would produce as many caricatures of English poor as of Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM

Your bias, bigotry and hypocrisy are showing again Christmas.

Care to explain your stance that certain things said by Trevelyan must be viewed as being relevant and indicative while other things stated by the same man must be viewed as mere "mouthings"?

The Trevelyan Letter of October 1846 I have copied and pasted in full in my last post - how about you doing the same?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:18 AM

"Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY"
I've just said that - keep up - please stop trying to talk doewn to me - you look silly trying to do so from the hole you've managed to dig yourself into.
The British Government acted on implicitly on Trevelyan's advice, but in the end it was their responsibility for what happened - just said that as well
"Perhaps you could produce some."
You really have never read anything have you
There are plenty of examples of racist caricatures from Punch - they were noted for it - go look for them youurself, you moron.
In the meantime - this'll do as a summing up.
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

Crossposted
"Trevelyan must be viewed as being relevant...."
They are relevant because they were the policies carried out - as you refuse even to acknowledge thos policies - it seems pretty pointless to enter ainto a battle ow words with you - show those were not his/their policies and you might have something to say
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:29 AM

There are plenty of examples of racist caricatures from Punch - they were noted for it - go look for them youurself, you moron.

This claim was made on the earlier famine thread, but could not be substantiated.
Can you produce an example or not?

Here is Punch's view of English poor.

http://johnsnow.matrix.msu.edu/images/fullbanner6.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM

"Read the Trevelyan letter, the previous long letter and the quote from his later autobiography"

You provide links to them and I will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM

Piss off Keith - you have just been given a cutting from the Magazine itself - in case you missed it -
There are plenty - a book full of them entitled "The Same Old Story" – Paddy the Pig, Paddy, The Irish Frakenstein, Paddy the ungrateful child.
You rejected the ones were given to you because some of them were American
Do not be so stupid.
Some here depict the Irish as pigs and as sub-human animals, others as ungrateful children for wanting home rule, opposing conscription.
Take your ***** pick
Punch's attitude to the Irish was openly racist – one more time
As you are a declared racist, it is little wonder that what they had to say about the Irish is as "harmless" to you as was Britain's wartime pro-Hitler fascists (please ask me to link to that particularly unsavoury discussion again)
Are you not surprised that nobody takes you seriously
Now please get out of the way and let Terrytoon tell us why Britain's policy in Ireland was all a 'Republican myth'
Jim Carroll
http://punch.photoshelter.com/gallery/Ireland-Cartoons/G0000tcWkXyP4OHo/

http://www.irishhistorian.com/Punch/Punch_Famine.html

http://www.irishhistorian.com/Punch/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:09 AM

"You provide links to them and I will."
Sorry you'll have to buy the relevant books for the first and last
You have numerous quotes available to, including the one from your "definitive" history of the Famine 'The Great Hunger'
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"
Are you claiming that this was not Trevelyan's opinion and that it was all a fake - you've just been saying that it was only his opinion which didn't have anything to do with British policy - make up your mind boy.
In the end, it doesn't matter anyway - it was British policy that decimated the Irish - Trevelyan was merely a suitable tool to put that policy into operation.
Warehouse closures? Workhouse closures? Continued exports? Mass enforced emigration? murderous coffin-ships? laissez-faire policy? Half a century of mass Eviction? fabulously wealthy Empire well capable of assisting the Irish to survive?
Is this all a lie or just not worth consideration
That hole you are standing in is getting deeper - please keep digging.
Jimmy Christmas


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM

Sorry - forgot
The laissez-faire policy that allowed merchants to send famine relief ships back and forth up to four times while the Irish starved, in order to elevate prices - that came from Mrs Smith's "definitive" work as well
Yours in anticipation
Jimmy


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:34 AM

Changing a bit from a deliberate policy of genocide I see Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:56 AM

"Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY - they didn't in the 1840s and they don't now - they never have."

Political power exists throughout any government... though it does not trickle down to the lower levels of civil service. But since I have worked for a state government the past thirty years, I can tell you point blank that you do not have to be a hereditary or elected member of a government to have power. A bureaucracy takes on a life of its own.

The rank & file are under the control of political appointees who can and do set policy. And they usually follow the wishes of their political patrons. If you want to kill a mandate... stall or underfund its implementation so that it never takes effect... at least during the current administration. New administration... new priorities.

You are like one of the ten blind men trying to describe an elephant by examining just one part of the beast and then making their pronouncement. Some of us are trying to view it as a whole before drawing conclusions... but then we aren't invested in trying to absolve anyone either... perhaps we are getting too close to home for you? This seems to be very personal for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 09:05 AM

please ask me to link to that particularly unsavoury discussion again

Yes please Jim.

Punch caricatured everyone like that.
In the same edition your quote came from, a few pages further on an Englishman in a top hat is a gorilla.
Of your list, only one was from Punch and not America.
The Punch one was suggesting Britain was creating Frankenstein's monster in Ireland.
Political not racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM

"Punch caricatured everyone like that."
You mean like this?
"Changing a bit from a deliberate policy of genocide I see Christmas."
I've never claimed it was a definite Genocide policy - I said so when I gave my view on the Coogan book - inconclusive.
I say that whether it was deliberate or not, it was genocidal in effect - Trevelyan's appointment and the government's policy STILL UNCOMMENTED ON BY YOU makes it probable that it was deliberate, but whatever the case, there were a million corpses to whom id didn't matter one way or the other.
Britain could have helped, they chose not to, just as you could comment on the facts of British policy but choose not to.
Doesn't matter in either case, you, like your 'fick' mate, have been blown out of the water.
Answer the point or crawl down the hole you have dug for yourself
Jimmy, Jimbo, Christmas, whatever you prefer, you little bar-room brigadeer you


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 09:35 AM

Sorry - missed a bit
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Racist, not political - and aimed directly at Irish Famine survivors - I'd be interested to learn of British labourers described in such a way - won't hold my breath though.
I'll link us to your 'British Fascist' statements if you will categorically confirm here that you DID NOT describe the outpourings of an extremist anti-Semitic British Fascist group preparing to form a provisional Government "for when Hitler won the war" at the time that millions of Jews were being gassed as "harmless".
Otherwise - my statement stands and I have no intentions of providing you with another outlet for your attention-seeking gibberish.
Now - the non-racist Punch magazine and examples of British workers being described as "A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro....
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 09:57 AM

Reading Keith's take on Johnny Foreigner reminds me of listening to Nigel Farage in debate yesterday.

Er..

Oh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM

"Reading Keith's take on Johnny Foreigner reminds me of listening to Nigel Farage in debate yesterday"
What kept you Muskie - he's been at it for years?
Nice comparison though!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:13 PM

Reading Keith's take on Johnny Foreigner reminds me of listening to Nigel Farage in debate yesterday.

Funny.
I can not remember saying anything about any.
Please remind me what it was.

Confident prediction- you can't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:02 PM

Not funny.

Merely confirmation of intrasnsigent fuckwitism on the part of our resident fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 02:24 AM

Can you say what it was Greg.
Of course not.
"Fuckwit."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 03:56 AM

"Please remind me what it was."
That you regard comparing Irish famine refugees seeking to earn a living in England after an inconceivable holocaust which brought about the deaths of over as million of their fellow-countrymen, as "not racist" will do for starters.   
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
That you let pass on the nod the fact that contained in that description, which you describe as "not racist" is a clear indication that Britain regarded all foreigners, especially those of a different colour as being on the same level as animals.
"A creature manifestly between the GORILLA AND THE NEGRO
That you pass off the Irish and Irish American populations, particularly schoolchildren, as hate-filled morons, comparable to dementedly murderous seventeenth-century religious fanatics who allowed themselves to be whipped into frenzied mobs of killers, just about adds the topping to your racist concoction.
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?"

Many thanks for further confirmation to a long -held opinion.
All I need to make my day is for you blustering, bullshitting friend to back you up in your opinion.... but I doubt even he would go as far as you have. whatever he may believe on the subject.
This has bee a good start to the day - I wonder what the rest of it will bring.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:04 AM

Views held then were undoubtedly racist.
People believed in racial superiority in those days.
Not just in Britain but everywhere.

But, there was no hatred of the Irish in Britain.
At that time, the most celebrated national hero, Wellington, was Irish as were the best writers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:09 AM

Keep it up Keith - you're doing a grand job
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:36 AM

The issue isn't 19th century racism in Britain, but your 21st century support for it - a simple answer to your question.
I can't imagine how you are going to deal with you hate filled zombie mobs of Irish and Irish-American brainwashed schoolchildren
It really is difficult to unsay what has been said on open forum, isn't it?
Too late, too late the maiden cried
Have a good day
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 05:56 AM

The issue isn't 19th century racism in Britain, but your 21st century support for it

I never have and never would, and to say I do is an attempt to smear with lies anyone who challenges your view on anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 05:59 AM

hate filled zombie mobs of Irish and Irish-American brainwashed schoolchildren

Where did that come from?
I did state that by decree a version of history had to be taught in Irish and NY State schools.
I did not make it up. I gave reliable sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM

Game, set and match
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:27 AM

Since it's been awhile since my school days in NYS, I had to check out the 1996 curriculum change mentioned above

here is a link:   books.google.com/books?isbn=0299187144

however, the CHANGES made also include study of the holocaust and the historic treatment of blacks in the US. Hardly singling out Britain or promoting hate mongering. Instead the stated goal is to make students aware of how prevailing attitudes coupled with government actions or inactions can contribute to human suffering.

They didn't remove the American Revolution or FDR's Lend Lease Program... they just added a few more areas to be covered... but don't worry, I'm sure our kids have managed to sleep through them as well as they have the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:41 AM

Why decree they teach a version of events that most historians do not support?
The result in Ireland has been that many people, like Jim, are unaware that the issue is even disputed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 07:01 AM

The idea of brainwashing children is a disgusting one and anybody who suggests if has been carried out systematically by any Government or political influence is a disgusting individual.
Irish people, as a whole, are an extremely hospitable and welcoming group of people and for somebody who has never read a book to suggest that they have been conned by any political agenda or are unaware of their own history is disgusting arrogance.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 07:05 AM

I obviously can't speak for Ireland, but I can say that the USA and NY in particular have a long history of immigration... and many of those new immigrants came because of lack of options back home... and some to save their lives.

As for your concern about historians... we have school boards that want to teach creationism as a science and plenty that view the War Between the States... aka the American Civil War... as strictly a matter of state's rights - slavery had NOTHING to do with it. And despite photographic evidence and still a few eyewitnesses, there are those who claim the Nazi purges & Holocaust is a hoax.

Perhaps a population that has many residents and their families who have suffered injustice in their original homelands might just have a different perspective than your historians... who may be in the majority now but are not without opposition. Who can say what another 50 years will bring?

From AP at the time:

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) _ New York school children must be taught about the Irish potato famine under a bill Gov. George Pataki plans to sign Wednesday in a New York City ceremony with Irish President Mary Robinson.

Pataki counsel Michael Finnegan said the law will be the first in the nation to require teaching about the famine, which killed or uprooted millions in Ireland during the 1840s.

The bill mandates that the famine be portrayed as a human rights violation akin to genocide, slavery and the Holocaust _ subjects the state has mandated students be taught since 1994.

Some legislators complained the requirement will be another burden for already failing schools.

Republican Assemblyman John Faso of Columbia County, just south of Albany, called the bill a ``silly'' exercise in political correctness.

But Democratic Assemblyman Joseph Crowley of Queens, the bill's prime sponsor, said the famine has relevance in today's world.

``Hunger is still being used as a tool of subjugation, as a means of keeping people down, in places like Somalia, Ethiopia and China,'' Crowley said.

While triggered by a blight of the potato crop starting in 1845, Irishmen and historians have argued for generations over whether the attitude of the ruling British government contributed to the misery.

An estimated 1 million of Ireland's 7 million people died during the crisis _ some say more _ and 2 million or more fled the island. Many of those refugees settled in New York.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:05 AM

1: "You have been given the chronological list of the Great Irish Famine containing further statements by Trevelyan stating that the British economy was more important than feeding the Irish people (Government official policy)"

Christmas, apart from defence of the realm, what do you think the prime responsibility of the Government of any country is? Of course the economy of the country (Population of the whole at the time being some 25 million) was more important than feeding approximately 2 million people – If you disagree with that then you must be one of those clowns who when faced with any real problem advocates throwing the baby out with the bath water – You would seriously recommend putting 23 million at risk in your efforts to save 2 million?

On the strength of that British economy in the period we are talking about, you really should do some research '46; '47 & '48 Great Britain went through a financial crisis roughly equivalent to that recently experienced in 2008 – not waffle, merely a matter of recorded fact.

Also a matter of record is the fact that by the mid-1800s the Empire was actually costing Great Britain money.

2: As to you never claiming that there was a deliberate policy of genocide, or ethnic cleansing? Please explain your references to it, all taken directly from your contributions to this thread?

A: "I really did begin to wonder whether somebody who confesses to never having read a book on the subject really does know more than every single contributor to this forum, including those of us whose understanding of it is based on the fact that many of our ancestors (not only mine) fled from Ireland directly because of England's genocidal policy – whew what a relief!!"

B: "coming from a man in his position, that can only be construed as Government policy, in which case, The Famine was used as an exercise in ethnic cleansing."

C: "That policy was made clear by Britain'r representative in Ireland, Sir Charles Trevelyan' in a letter - it is indisputable British policy.

Your breathtaking cowardice in even acknowledging this statement, let alone trying to explain away the genocidal implications of it "


D: "John Mitchel, the Young Ireland leader, transported in 1848 to Van Diemens Land, had a different view, calling the famine "an artificial famine. Potatoes failed in like manner all over Europe; yet there was no famine save in Ireland. The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the famine".

E: "In a way, all historians are 'revisionists' on the subject - none of them have dealt with the Trevelyan letter and its implications of deliberate ethnic cleansing."

F: "I personally can't see how such a statement from Britain's powerful representative in Ireland cannot possibly be construed in any other way than 'ethnic cleansing and holocaust'

G: "It was the genocidal inaction that every single historian who has written on the subject has condemned - the racism that was behind it just explained that inaction.

H: "Because of the way the Famine was mishandled (some believe deliberately) Ireland was never able to recover it"

I: "You have described The Famine as "unprecedented" - it was.
The way it was handled was Genocidal "


3: As far as your attacks on Keith go, having gone through the exchanges on this thread I have found that at no time at all in any of his posts to this thread has he ever stated either of the following views:

A: "All you have ever said is "Britain didn't do it"

B: "from the start your line was that Britain was in no way responsible for the Famine"

You always bitterly resent it with complete and utter indignation when people put words in your mouth, yet you are not beyond inventing and quoting arguments and comments for people that they have never espoused - truly despicable behaviour.

Simple question for you Christmas that only requires a YES or NO answer.

Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?

No vast tracts of cut'n'pastes just a simple YES or NO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM

Jim, do you deny that Irish schoolkids were taught to blame Britain by government decree?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM

"As for your concern about historians.
Can we clear this thing up about education and historians once and for all.
Historians today have slated past historians for dealing only with the effects of the famine - a tug on the emotional (National) heartstrings, rather than examining why what happened, happened.
Both Kinealy and Neilson seem to be arguing that nobody, to date, has dealt in any detail with the causes of the Famine.
Kinealy says that the reason for this, and the reason for why so many historians continue to do so, is to run the risk of handing the dissident Republican factions propaganda ammunition - a hint that she believes that the facts actually bear out the Republican (political) case.
It is automatically assumed that the responsibility for the Famine lies with the British - how could it be otherwise; Britain ruled Ireland and controlled its economy.
It was as responsible for assisting the Famine victims as it would have been if it had taken place in Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol; it chose not to help other than to provide financial assistance to leave Ireland
Any material assistance for the starving Irish came from charities such as the Quakers, and in some case, even this came with the price of changing your religion in exchange for a bowl of soup (not from the Quakers, I hasten to add).
This said, in the half a century I have been personally associated with Ireland, I have never encountered a scrap of anti-English racist abuse; that period includes the 20 years of partition and sectarian -generated 'Troubles'
We, and dozens more English people visited this town to see it draped in black flags at the time the hunger strikers were dying and received the same welcome we have always received.
This isn't to say that the Irish don't hate our politicians - don't we all?
Apart from one exception (itinerancy) the only place there is a significant race or sectarian problem in in the 'British' north, with arson attacks on the homes of asylum seekers and annual aggressive marches.
It is a scurrilous lie to suggest that Irish people have been taught, or believe in any way, that the English as a race are to blame for the Famine.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:02 AM

a version of events that most historians do not support?

More of the "most historians" bullshit, fuckwit?

Jaysus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:09 AM

Jim they are taught to blame the British government of the day, not the "English as a race" !
Deny that?

It is automatically assumed that the responsibility for the Famine lies with the British

No it is not!
Not by the majority of historians.
It is disputed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:13 AM

More of the "most historians" bullshit, fuckwit?

It was Kinealy who stated that they are a majority.
It is ungracious of you to call such an eminent historian "fuckwit" Greg.
"Fuckwit" compared to who?
You?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM

"It was as responsible for assisting the Famine victims as it would have been if it had taken place in Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol;

Apples to Oranges Christmas.

Tell me what sort of famine, similar to the one that struck Ireland, could have struck Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol? Noting of course that the Irish cities of Cork, Dublin and Belfast actually increased in size during the famine, industrialised Belfast hardly felt the effects of it.

it chose not to help other than to provide financial assistance to leave Ireland"

Really?? So no Indian Corn was purchased, no additional workhouses were built, in 1848 no 227,329 people were receiving relief in Irish workhouses, no three-quarters of a million people had been provided with food and a daily wage, three million people were not being fed. The only assistance given was in the form of assisted passage eh? What complete and utter rot, once again nothing but deliberate misrepresentation and lies.

Any idea what the most effective way to deal with a famine is according to various UN Aid Agencies Christmas? You should look it up it might surprise you (Hint: It has got S.F.A. to do with providing food, which they reckon is the worst thing you can do.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:50 AM

1: "Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they delibarately abused that responsibility fot the 'good of Empire'."

Nope the Irish themselves, must bear responsibility for the condition of the country, its land tenure agreements and how they viewed its management, and how they ran their estates and farms. The British Government did not have any responsibility to any land-owner in the United Kingdom to ensure that he ran his estates effectively or efficiently. There was no nanny society in the 19th century, no BIG GOVERNMENT.

2: "The Irish economy, agrarian and rural, was as it was under British rule - It wasn't changed in any way because it suited the Empire to leave it as it was - Britain's breadbasket.

There were no attempts at modernisation - it remained a basic peasant economy - and referred to as such.

That situation was prevalent throughout the Empire - each colony alloted its role in feeding the beast.

Any attempts to alter that situation were firmly and bloodily imposed. "


No Christmas, wrong on every single point:

- Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain, or it's Government. Various Commissions had looked into the questions with a view to improvement subsequent to the Act of Union in 1801, the Devon Commission (1845) being only one of them. By the way Christmas what you are presenting here is a contradiction. IF, as you claim, the British Government had set up Ireland's economy to be agrarian and rural for the benefit of Britain or the Empire, then they would be, by default, acting against their own interests surely to destroy what they had supposedly created through deliberate mass emigration – True? Yet that is what you say they did. Can't have both must be one or the other.

- Tell me Christmas what great Government funded "improvement" programmes were instigated by way of "modernization" elsewhere in Great Britain and throughout the Empire from say from the 1700s onwards? You see I don't think there were any, all investments that tended towards improvements and modernization be they industrial or agricultural were privately funded in those days. Take the sub-continent of India for example. At the time of the Mogul Empire only 5% of the land was irrigated by 1850 over 25% of it was – all financed by the private enterprises that would benefit from the increased production brought about by the improvements. So much for your contention that - " That situation was prevalent throughout the Empire - each colony alloted its role in feeding the beast." - British investment in India was massive.

- Examples please of instances where: " Any attempts to alter that situation were firmly and bloodily imposed. " - I won't hold my breath, the statement doesn't even make any sense.

3: "Britain simply refused to deal with a famine which had was the consequence of an economy it had imposed on Ireland "

The economy of Ireland was precisely that of the one that had been "imposed" by the Irish land-owners prior to the Act of Union. By the mid-1800s, after a string of successive famines and food shortages, it was patently obvious that change was required but due to a combination of indolence, ignorance and intransigence the necessary changes were actively resisted (The opposite was true 140 years prior to that in Scotland were the improvements brought about through England's agricultural revolution were fully embraced and welcomed, Scotland having just lost about 20% of its population to famine.).

4: "Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY" - Teribus

"I've just said that - keep up" – Jim Carroll


Really Christmas?? Care to explain this earlier exchange then:

""The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Don't know about you Christmas but that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion " - Teribus

"That was the opinion of a policy MAKING Government employee" – Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:04 AM

"Jim they are taught to blame the British government of the day"
If you read what your own historians say (you obviously don't ever read your own links) you will find that their point is that causes have been ignored and blame not dealt with - just effects.
Nobody wh has never read a single book on the subject, or has never had the interest to have done so can possibly know anything whatever on this subject
"DENY THAT"
Still nothing on Government policy Sergrant major - just more diversive waffle
As you were - so to speak
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:12 AM

By the way - you are still attempting to talk down to people from the hole you have dug for yourself - entertainment value at least
" that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion"
Yup - a government appointee put in charge of feeding the people he hated
Kicking the milkman's horse again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:15 AM

Christmas:

Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?

No vast tracts of cut'n'pastes just a simple YES or NO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:44 AM

It was Kinealy who stated that they are a majority.

Ah, but Keith: you're never actually READ Kinealy, so you know bugger all about what she said or didn't say.

Fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

Ah but Greg, her essay in History Today is online and we have discussed it in detail.
She says,"Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."

As you say, "Fuckwit."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM

Nobody wh has never read a single book on the subject, or has never had the interest to have done so can possibly know anything whatever on this subject
"DENY THAT"


Yes I deny that.
I know for an absolute fact that the issue of culpability is disputed.
With all your reading, do you deny that?

I know for an absolute fact that Kinealy, who is in a position to know, says that revisionism is "dominant."
With all your reading, do you deny that.

You only read nationalist historians anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 03:46 PM

"Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?"
"a simple YES or NO."
Do you still beat your wife - a simple yes or no will do fine?
Now you really are showing your prattish desperation.
I believe the policy adopted by the British Government gave rise to the outcome - one million plus deaths and mass emigration for generations to come.
Trevelyan - the instigator of Britain's policy, made it quite clear that he detested the Irish, that he believed the Famine to be divine retribution and that the consequences of the Famine would be in the interests of the British Empire.
Whether the British Government had thought through their policies of non-action to their logical conclusion remains a moot point - the fact that those policies wrought the holocaust that it did does not - that's what Britain did (or didn't do - that's what happened)
Why the **** are you asking me to repeat what I have already said several times - you are now sounding like another of Keith's moronic Daleks?
You refuse to respond to Britain's policy - fine, no answer is answer enough for me.
You have flipped and somersaulted around Trevelyan's attitude to the Irish - all a fake, just his opinion, nothing to do with British policy.
Trevelyan was Britain's mouthpiece on Irish policy, they appointed him, they honoured him for what he had done for Ireland - they were responsible for what happened in Ireland.
There is a logic behind the claim that what Britain did was deliberate - it suited Britain to have s subservient colony as a neighbour, but even if it was not a deliberate act of Genocide, it was an act of Genocide through malicious inaction - take your pick.
Not only do you still have to respond to the actual facts of British policy - you have yet to even mention the half century of evictions that consolidated what the Famine had done.
on't you dare suggest I have hidden behind cut-'n-pasted you distorting shit - most of those I have put up are taken from Keith's links - and eve if they are not, they beat your distorted and unqualified waffle hands down.
Now about that wife-beating - yes or no?
"Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain,"
There we go - Trevelyan writ large - thought you said I was making it all up - you'll be claiming that all Irishmen were simian-like braideads who have been brainwashed into hating Britain next - just like our learned-without ever reading a single work Keith; but there agai, he's already told us he is infallible
"Ah but Greg, her essay in History Today is online and we have discussed it in detail."
to lying - you obviously have not read it, let alone discussed it - very selective quoting is not discussion - neither is ignoring everything she wrote because it doesn't suit your anti-Irish racist agenda.
And has said everything you have not - callous indifference, failure to apportion blame, romanticism rather than finger-pointing....
It's all there, should you ever venture to read more than one paragraph at a time.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:26 PM

Well Jim, I think she said that the revisionist view is "dominant."
Are you claiming I am wrong??

No.
You can not.

I also think that she said, "the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts."
Are you claiming I am wrong??

No.
You can not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM

Ah but Greg, her essay in History Today is online

No no, fuckwit: her BOOKS - not an op-ed article.

Go read a couple & get back to us, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 01:49 AM

My interest here is historiography, not history.
Have you read any books on that?
Are there any?

I do not think Kinealy contradicts in her books what she says in History Ireland.
Does she Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 04:24 AM

This really has gone far enough
In the past you have mounted campaigns against entire communities and races, describing Muslims in general as potential terrorists and British Pakistanis in particular as "implanted cultural" perverts.
Now you have turned on the Irish, describing them as hate filled anti-British zombies poisoned by their biased education system and comparing their "brainwashing" to what happened in 17th century Salem, Massachusetts; you have included Irish Americans in this attack.
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree. Massachusetts?"
You have excused a notorious account of the Irish from the racist 'Punch' Magazine, as being "not racist", so presumably you believe it to be an accurate physical description of my predecessors
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "

Your mate had described those who were forced to flee the Famine, again my predecessors, as:
" a combination of indolence, ignorance and intransigence the necessary changes were actively resisted
This latter included the Scots who wre forced to flee Scoctland in similar circumstances in that description.
This is not only racism run riot, but it is an open attack on very many members of this forum
My family originated in Ireland - they were refugees from the Famine.
Many of my family`members received ad are still receiving Irish educations, aunts, uncles, cousins, and their children and grandchildren.
This is also the case with native Irish and Irish Americans who contribute to this thread - so your arguments are directed at all of us.
To back up your arguments you have concocted a theory based on historians you have not read (admitted), and cannot possibly their views on these matters.
The irony of all this of course, is that having accused the Irish of inbred hatred, you display more personal hatred in a handful of postings than I have ever encountered in a lifetime of arguments and discussions.
If I feel the anger that I do about your racist attacks n me, my family and my neighbours, I cannot begin to imagine how a Muslim and especially a British Pakistani would feel if they stumbled on one of your racist diatribes.
I have always admired the cosmopolitan nature of this forum and have been grateful to read and share views with people from other backgrounds, cultures and races.
I don't believe there are any Muslim members of this forum - little wonder!
Should you be allowed to persist in your efforts, Mudcat stands to be turned into an exclusively W.A.S.P site.
Should the administrators of this site consider closing this thread, I request that it be left open long enough for it to be appreciated in all its full glory before doing so.
As a footnote, I have just been informed by a kind forum fairy that someone has set up a fake Flickr account (I don't have one) on my behalf containing Irish military memorabilia - it seems to be the level of intelligence these things operate at.
I firmly suggest to those in charge that, should you attempt to indulge in racist and cultural attacks such as these in future, especially when they involve other forum members, you should be stopped immediately and, should you persist, that you be barred from membership of this forum altogether
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 07:28 AM

Jim, my only case in this whole discussion is that historians are divided on the issue of culpability.

Why does that make you so angry when it is the simple truth?

I have never even expressed an opinion about the famine, except to describe it as a human catastrophe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM

And ... you always make those false accusations against me when you can not challenge what I actually say.
Here, you can not challenge the fact that historians are divided.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 08:32 AM

You have a list of the people you have targeted,
You have been given examples of what the historians you haven't read have said - you choose to ignore them
You do what you do and you are what you are.
What false accusations would they be?
All those 'false accusations' have been reproduced for you over and over again and you have confirmed that you still hold those opinions.
Your Irish opinions come in quotes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM

Good luck with the 400 by the way - that appears to be your sole objective in participating in subjects you know nothing about - scoring points
"And what do point mean - points mean prizes!!"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 09:52 AM

I do not think Kinealy contradicts in her books what she says in History Ireland

You do not think.... period. Try READING her books. Then you'll find out. Or, more likely, you'll simply dismiss it, a susual, if not in accord wioth your pre-concieve notions.

Fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 10:43 AM

Greg, she has not written a single book on historiography.
She has written about it in History Ireland, and I quoted her.

Jim you post lies about me when you have nothing else.

In this whole discussion you can not challenge a single thing that I have said.
Instead you claim I have posted wrong or bad things in ancient threads.
I never have.
I do not hold the views you ascribe to me.

Now, if you can not challenge my and Kinealy's claim that historians are divided and revisionists are dominant, I am done with this discussion.

ARE YOU CHALLENGING IT???????


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 10:49 AM

she has not written a single book on historiography.

And you have not READ a single book on historiograpy, and wouldn't recognize historiography should it rear up on its hind legs and bite you on the arse.

I am done with this discussion.

'Tis a consumnation devoutly to be wish'd. Thank God, and not before time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:20 AM

"Despite the shortages, the British government decided not to interfere in the marketplace to provide food to the poor Irish, but left food import and distribution to free market forces. Moreover, they allowed foodstuffs – vast amounts of foodstuffs – to be exported from Ireland. Merchants made large profits while people starved. At the same time, public works, which entailed hard physical labor building roads that led nowhere and walls that surrounded nothing, were made the primary form of relief. By the end of 1846, deaths from hunger, exhaustion and famine-related diseases were commonplace. No part of the country, from Belfast to Skibbereen, had escaped."
Christine Kinealy

"An even larger relief organization was the British Relief Association. It was formed in January 1847 by Lionel de Rothschild, a Jewish banker in London. Again, its fundraising activities were international, with donations being received from locations as diverse as Venezuela, Australia, South Africa, Mexico, Russia and Italy. In total, over 15,000 individual contributions were sent to the Association, and approximately £400,000 was raised. This money was entrusted to a Polish count, Paul de Strzelecki, a renowned scientist and explorer. He traveled to Counties Mayo and Sligo in 1847, where he established schools at which free food was given to the local children. Despite falling victim to 'famine fever,' he survived and remained working with the poor in Ireland.
In August 1848, when the Association's funds ran out, the schools were closed despite promises from the Prime Minister that they would be supported. Strzelecki refused to accept any money for his work, but he was knighted by the British government in 1848. Ironically, the only other person to be knighted for his work during the Famine was Charles Trevelyan, Permanent Secretary at the Treasury, who was renowned for his parsimonious approach to relief."
Christine Kinealy

"A key objective of Irish revisionism was to exorcise the ghost of nationalism from historical discourse and to replace it with historical narratives that persistently played down the separateness and the trauma, and derided the heroes and villains of Irish history".
Christine Kinealy

Issue of culpability avoided
Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway.
Christine Kinealy

To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly.
But the soup kitchens were only ever intended to be a short-term measure, and after the government closed them in the autumn of 1847, mortality again rose sharply. This brief episode, however, in which free food was provided on a nation-wide basis, demonstrated that the administrative capability to provide relief existed. Unfortunately for the poor of Ireland, the political and ideological will to continue the scheme did not exist.
Christine Kinealy

No practical impediment to government intervention
Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense. Throughout the eighteenth century, and in 1817, 1822 and indeed, in 1845, the Irish and British governments imported food for resale in Ireland. In the subsistence crisis of 1782, an embargo was placed on the export of grain from Ireland, despite the opposition of Irish grain merchants. Furthermore, in the subsistence crisis of 1845 to 1847, which occurred throughout Europe, governments throughout the continent responded by temporarily closing their ports to exports (Portugal, Turkey, Russia, amongst others). This was, in fact, a traditional response to Famine conditions. Also, as the Corn Law crisis proved, there was no practical or ideological impediment to government intervention in the market place when it suited the purposes of the government.
Christine Kinealy

In regard to the Famine, INTERPRETATIONS WHICH HINTED AT THE ISSUE OF CULPABILITY OF THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT WERE PIGEON-HOLED AS BEING APOLOGISTS AND PERPETRATORS OF THE NATIONALIST STRUGGLE. Perhaps this accounts for the dearth of serious scholarly research on the Famine, most notably by historians within Ireland.
Christine Kinealy


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:30 AM

400


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:30 AM

Whoops - missed abit
"Yet it is not only the number of people who died which makes the Famine such a tragedy. It is also the way in which they lost their lives. Death from famine or famine-related diseases is slow, painful and obscene.
Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain.
This year marked the 150th anniversary of 'Black '47' – the single year when disease, suffering and mortality were at their highest. But the Famine did not end in 1847. In 1849, the level of mortality was almost as great as it had been in 1847."
Christine Kinealy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:45 AM

Jim, I am not discussing the famine, just the historiography of it.
(Greg, I know of no books on the historiography of the famine.
DO YOU?
Recommend a couple why don't you?)

My only claim is that culpability is disputed.
Kinealy agrees and adds that revisionism (no culpability)is dominant.

DO YOU CHALLENGE IT JIM?
IF NOT, I AM DONE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:04 PM

Jim.
Now you have turned on the Irish, describing them as hate filled anti-British zombies poisoned by their biased education system and comparing their "brainwashing" to what happened in 17th century Salem, Massachusetts; you have included Irish Americans in this attack.
Blatant, shocking lies Jim.

You have excused a notorious account of the Irish from the racist 'Punch' Magazine, as being "not racist",

I said it WAS racist Jim, just not evidence of the Irish being hated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:25 PM

Piss off Keith - your case is dead
We can now you are about to hide behind another word you don't understand and haven't read.
"Blatant, shocking lies Jim."
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree. Massachusetts?"
Stop lying.
"I said it WAS racist Jim, just not evidence of the Irish being hated."
"Political not racist"
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Stop lying
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:28 PM

And stop changing the subject
You have selected quotes from Kinealy out of context and deliberately distorted them to lake your case
Stop lying
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:29 PM

In fact - stop altogether - you are a racist turd
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:38 PM

IF NOT, I AM DONE.

Promises, promises. Less talk, more action, fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:54 PM

Jim, I quoted her in context.
She said that revisionism was dominant and long had been.
You can not deny or challenge that fact.

Culpability is disputed.
You can not deny or challenge that fact.


Piss off Keith - your case is dead


This is my case, and far from being dead it is the undeniable truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 01:11 PM

And by the way - I'm fascinated to learn that racism isn't hatred - especially that which compares human beings to dangerous animals - it does explain your behaviour on this forum
Lie down - your case is dead
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 01:15 AM

Racism is a form of hate.
Back then everyone was racist. They believed in racial superiority.
One bit in one magazine is not evidence that Ireland was hated.


Culpability is disputed.
You can not deny or challenge that fact.

That is my case, and far from being dead it is the undeniable truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 04:07 AM

"Racism is a form of hate."
To defend past racism as not being racist, as you have done, "Political not racist" is to lend support to racism - doesn't come any more complicated as that.
To describe Irish and Irish American people in terms such as "Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree. Massachusetts?" is a racist attack on those people and an insult to a large number of members of this forum
If this is not your posting, and someone has faked the posting I withdraw my accusation and apologies (or maybe that should be "grovel") - other than that, you have made a racist attack on millions of people - it doesn't come any more complicated than that either.
As far as your spurious claims on historians, every single one I have read holds Britain as culpable for the the Famine - not one has denied that their policies brought about millions of deaths - not one single one.
Not one has attempted to claim that; the closed workhouses and warehouses, the financial corruption surrounding famine relief, policy of exporting food out of starving Ireland, the mass evictions, the enforced emigrations; were not responsible for the million plus deaths and the depopulation of Ireland.
If you have an example of one historian denying any of this, please produce it - I have failed to find it.
What the vast majority have said is that Britain's culpability was due to callous indifference in putting the interests of The British Empire before before the lives of the Irish - all but one (a British historian based in Belfast) have claimed that this was an inhuman decision and that there were alternatives.
All this has been specifically stated by the people you have produced.
The only thing in dispute is whether or not this was a deliberate act aimed at the Irish - deliberate genocide.
As far as Britain's representative of Irish policy, Trevelyan, there is no question - he hated the Irish, he believed the Famine to be "God's retribution", and he urged a policy of 'emigrate or starve' - that is the policy Britain adopted - that is their culpability - it never becomes more complicated than that.
I haven't read enough to make up my mind one way or the other as to whether it was deliberate, or just Imperial profiteering, but it is one or the other - or maybe a mixture of both.   
You refuse to address the actions taken by the British government - you have been requested to do so several times.
You refuse even to acknowledge Trevelyan's advice to the British Government - you have been requested to do so several times.
Until you do both you have no case - one more time, it never becomes more complicated than that.
Have a good day
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 04:41 AM

I am an opponent of racism.

"political not racist"
That was my opinion of a cartoon that portayed Ireland as Mary Shelly's Frankenstein.

The book was a sensation at the time.
The message was that British policies in Ireland would create a monster that would turn on its creator.
Political not racist.

That is a side issue.
My case in all this is that culpability for the famine is disputed.
It is.
Do you challenge that Jim, because if you do not I have nothing else to add.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 04:46 AM

Christmas:

Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?

No vast tracts of cut'n'pastes just a simple YES or NO.

Example of your cut'n'paste contributions:

Jim Carroll - Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:20 AM

Contains not one single word written by you Christmas - If I wish to discuss the subject with Christine Kinealy then I will write to her - she will at least be capable of discussing what she wrote in context - not just snippets cherry-picked for effect. So much for your:

"(D)on't you dare suggest I have hidden behind cut-'n-pasted you distorting shit."

Examples of your mealy-mouthed waffle in response to a fairly direct and simple question:

1: "I believe the policy adopted by the British Government gave rise to the outcome - one million plus deaths and mass emigration for generations to come."

Ah so not deliberate then? Why not just say so?

2: "Whether the British Government had thought through their policies of non-action to their logical conclusion remains a moot point - the fact that those policies wrought the holocaust that it did does not - that's what Britain did (or didn't do - that's what happened)"

Well did they or didn't they? To state that they did nothing is ludicrous, it is a deliberate lie that can be clearly shown as such as the relief given is a matter of record.

3: "There is a logic behind the claim that what Britain did was deliberate - it suited Britain to have s subservient colony as a neighbour, but even if it was not a deliberate act of Genocide, it was an act of Genocide through malicious inaction - take your pick."

Ah so now it was deliberate, then it may not be? Are you totally incapable of making your mind up on anything?

As for this one - I will repeat the complete sentence:

"Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain, or it's Government."

Well up until 1801 Ireland did have it's own Parliament didn't it? It passed laws, set taxation, raised revenue didn't it? So who then could be held accountable for the state of the country, it's lack of investment, it's corruption, it's way of doing business, it's lack of engagement in any attempt at improvement? Certainly NOT the British Government - on mainland Great Britain all investment, improvement and innovation was PRIVATELY funded.

"There we go - Trevelyan writ large" - Are you surprised? Here we have a senior Civil Servant repeating what every commission that had looked into the state of affairs in Ireland had previously stated - Doubt that Christmas then read the findings of the Devon Commission 1845.

On the charge of racism this man John Mitchel famous for his 1861 work "The Last Conquest of Ireland (Perhaps)" that gave rise to the often quoted phrase - "The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the Famine." Is the same John Mitchel who in 1857 founded the "Southern Citizen" to promote - "the value and virtue of slavery, both for negroes and white men", advocate the reopening of the African slave trade and encourage the spread of slavery into the American West." Yet this is a man that you say commands your respect - more evidence of your hypocrisy and double standards.

By the way, can you explain why with Ireland blight free in 1847 the death toll was so great? Something to do with the Irish eating all the potatoes, including those distributed as seed potatoes? That the British Government's fault as well?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:33 AM

"
Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?"
You've just had your answer to that - get somebody to read it to you.
"Contains not one single word written by you Christmas -"
It was my coup de grace of Keith's claim that she supported his case - I have expressed my own opinion throughout this discussion - unlike Keith's cut-'n- pastes - what's your point?
It was not "cherry-picked" - it was taken from fully-linked articles already up on this thread - the fact that you haven't bothered to read erither of them is an indication of your disinterest and ignorance of the subject in hand
"Ah so not deliberate then? Why not just say so?"
I have just answered tat question - get someone to read it for you.
"To state that they did nothing is ludicrous"
I didn't say they did nothing - what they did do left the alternative - "emigrate or starve"
Just said that - get someone to read it for you
"Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain, or it's Government."
Ireland waws under Brittish rule and its economy was completely under British control - British bulinessmen and landlords made sure of that - this is how Empire worked - go read a book
My respect for Mitchel is limited to his fight for Irish independence - if you care to read the notes to our Travellers CD on Musical Traditions you will find my attitude to his support for slavery - get someone to read it for you.
"Ah so now it was deliberate, then it may not be? Are you totally incapable of making your mind up on anything?"
The question of whether Britain's behaviour was deliberate or not is in contention everywhere and I have said so - gets someone to read what I have written instead of distorting what I believe.
Blaming the Irish for the results of the Famine just about sums up you pair of clowns
Morcambe and Wise are dead - why not set up a comedy team to replace them - though your inability to conduct a simple discussion without bullshit and bluster doesn't auger well for your chances.
Keith
You are a long established racist on this forum - live with it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM

Jim, I am an opponent of racism.
"Racist" is just what you accuse when you can not challenge what I actually say.
I say that culpability is disputed.
You can not challenge that truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:02 AM

"Jim, I am an opponent of racism."
Yeah sure you are - ask any "implanted" Pakistani
I have challenged your version of the truth - you choose to ignore it
Go away
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:37 AM

Or any "brainwashed Irishman or Irish American" for that matter
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM

You have challenged the fact that culpability is disputed??
I must have missed it!

How could you have when it is a plain, simple fact?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:43 AM

This historian, in my first post, disputes culpability so you are wrong and I am right Jim.
(And remember, such historians are dominant)

15 Jul 13 - 10:04 AM
Another historical perspective.
"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2Z7fhxnXV


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM

You've had a list of British actions during the Famine - you choose to ignore them
You've had the historian's (which you haven't read) discussion on the Famine, summed up by Christine Kinealy - you choose to ignore them
You have offered nothing but unqualified denial
Your case is complete and )(apart from the belligerent Chocolate soldier - once again you are on your own.
A friendly word of advice on your racism.
I have taken the first teetering steps in an attempt to stop your gallop, which has now got out of hand - nothing definite yet, but if you continue, so will I.
It is one thing to attack ethnic groups the way you have - that seems to be the way of some parts of the world nowadays.
It is quite another to make swingeing racist generalisations about racial groups who are part of a discussion forum.
I find your disgusting "brainwash" suggestions deeply offensive - they include members my family, friends and neighbours and they include members of this forum.
I would feel quite justified in asking for a public apology and a withdrawal of your deeply offensive racist remarks, but from past experience I realise I would be wasting my time - so I'll just have to settle for it never happening again, which I trust, it won't.
I once considered requesting the same of your friend when he informed me that my mother was "on the game" - or some such sewer behaviour, but I thought it better to allow him to show us what he's made of.
So - as I say - continue with your racist diatribes on this forum and I will step up my efforts to stop you.
Done here Keith
Have a good day; I'm off into the garden   
Best
Jim, Jimbo, Christmas - whatever


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:30 AM

You have provided no answers at all Christmas just pointless waffle. So far, you have provided no evidence whatsoever to back-up or support any case that the "Famine" was used and manipulated by the British Government to carry out any deliberate act of genocide (It is you who keep using the word "genocidal" isn't it). Not only do you not have the courage of your own convictions it would appear that you don't have any convictions, or if you have you cannot even state what those convictions are.

I would love to hear your case in support of your claim that Charles Edward Trevelyan hated the Irish. That he stated some pretty blunt and unflattering comments about them, particularly the land-owners is without doubt but that does not in itself indicate that he hated anybody, it only indicates that he was being brutally truthful about them. I remember asking you to provide some evidence to back up your accusation of him being a religious fanatic - still waiting for that. You keep wittering on about this "Providence of God" thing, as somehow being important, the way you present it, you infer that Trevelyan was the originator of this belief and you are only prepared to recognise Trevelyan as holding this view, when I have provided you with evidence that such a belief was widespread in Ireland among both the people and the clergy who ministered to them - so did that mean that they all hated the Irish as well?

You keep prattling on about closed down workhouses yet cannot offer any rational explanation as to how over the period in question the number of workhouses in Ireland rose from 128 in 1845 to 163 in 1851 - all that inaction especially considering that in Ireland in 1838 there were none.

Another of your "platforms" is the export of food from Ireland during the period in question, yet you seem to deliberately refuse to put that in context by conveniently forgetting to mention that those exports declined during the famine and the amount of imports increased dramatically - Had Peel not repealed the 1815 Corn Laws (That had benefited all farmers in the British Isles) then cheap food could not have been imported into Ireland between 1845 and 1851. What food in diminishing quantity that Ireland did produce just simply could not be transported to where it was needed - i.e. the people could not be fed in situ, they HAD TO MOVE. Post modern day famines Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Sudan, etc, the various UN agencies now know that you do not hand out food to successfully counter a famine you hand out money, it is much easier to transport and distribute - and history and track record shows conclusively that no matter how severe the famine there is always food available for purchase at the right price.

You continually accuse the British Government of doing nothing. I would like to see who your candidates were for those who did do something. The relief programme mounted by the British Government in terms of cost amounted to £9.95 million, yet you do not even acknowledge it ever existed, and before you come back and tell me that you did, if that was the case then you can hardly accuse them of doing nothing - can't have it both ways.

Famines and food shortages were endemic in Ireland, and their frequency was increasing as the population grew without any corresponding improvement either in commerce, in industry or in agriculture - funding for which had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Government of the day in the United Kingdom, or in any other country in the world at that time. So the condition that Ireland found itself in, in 1845 was very much down to the landed gentry of Ireland and those who farmed for them.

You look at the Irish Famine in isolation and blithely state that the British Government should have done this or done that, yet you ignore the scale of what had to be done, you ignore that the blight did not just strike and have an effect in Ireland its effects were felt all over the United Kingdom (Particularly in Scotland that received barely a fraction of the relief allocated to Ireland) and all over Europe, where cereal crop production suffered as well (rye & oats). You then use this blinkered and narrow vision to bolster up your condemnation of the effort made. You ignore, or completely dismiss the difficulties faced and attempt to portray what was unfolding as deliberate acts all planned and carefully worked out and orchestrated to destroy a nation. I shudder to think what the death toll would have been had the British Government at the time actually had done what you accuse them of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM

After checking out Mokyr's creds, I decided to check out some of his books. They are on order since these aren't on Oprah's list... lol

And before some start disputing his crediblity, if he's good enough for Oxford he should be good enough for Mudcat:

Joel Mokyr (born 26 July 1946) is an American and Israeli economic historian. Mokyr was born in the Netherlands and raised in Israel. He is the Robert H. Strotz Professor of Arts and Sciences at Northwestern University.

Mokyr holds a joint appointment in economics as well as a Sackler Professorial Fellow at the Eitan Berglas School of Economics at Tel Aviv University. He is particularly interested in the economic history of technology and population, but considers himself a general-purpose economic historian. A former editor of the Journal of Economic History and President of the Economic History Association, he served as the editor in chief of the Oxford Encyclopedia of Economic History, and continues to be editor in chief of a book series published by Princeton University Press, The Princeton University Press Economic History of the Western World. A former chair of the Economics Department and President of the Economic History Association, he is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and a number of comparable institutions in Europe.

His bibliography:
1976: Industrialization in the Low Countries, 1795-1850
1983: Why Ireland Starved: An Analytical and Quantitative Study of Irish Poverty, 1800-1851
1985: The Economics of the Industrial Revolution (ed.)
1990: Twenty Five Centuries of Technological Change: An Historical Survey
1990: The Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress
Review article: "The Great Conundrum," The Journal of Modern History Vol. 62, No. 1, March 1990
1991: The Vital One: Essays in Honor of Jonathan Hughes (ed.)
1993: The British Industrial Revolution: an Economic Perspective (ed.)
2002: The Gifts of Athena: Historical Origins of the Knowledge Economy
2003: The Oxford University Press Encyclopedia of Economic History (Editor in chief)
2009: The Invention of Enterprise: Entrepreneurship from Ancient Mesopotamia to Modern Times (Co-editor)
2009: The Enlightened Economy: An Economic History of Britain 1700-1850

He hardly sounds like someone with a grudge or axe to grind, but appears to be someone who understands that life is not simplistic and is trying to gain better understanding of the social and economic underpinings of historical events.

I would term him a history geek... LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 09:05 AM

You've had the historian's (which you haven't read) discussion on the Famine, summed up by Christine Kinealy - you choose to ignore them
You have offered nothing but unqualified denial


I do not deny anything the historians say Jim.
I merely point out that they disagree on culpability, and most deny it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM

"I would love to hear your case in support of your claim that Charles Edward Trevelyan hated the Irish"
You've had it - the fact that you choose to ignore it is your problem, not mine.
You want more, go and but the book and get someone to read the ten-page letter he wrote to the Morning Chronicle
Fake - you would say that, wouldn't you.
As far as I am concerned, 'God's contribution' and his welcoming the famine as a convenient way of solving The Irish question - a well enough known and widely quoted statement to make it true - to all other than those who would have it moved off centre-stage of course.
There's no waffle, even though you choose to describe it as such -
British policy exacerbated starvation in Ireland leaving the occupants with the choices to either emigrate or die.
The appointment of Trevelyan, the carrying out of his policies and the honouring of him when the job was completed makes it British culpability and indicates that the outcome met with their approval - no waffle there - a simply stated opinion.
The confirmation of that policy came in the mass evictions that turned the arrable land over to absentee landlords.
The only waffle here is your refusing to address the uncontradictable policy of closed warehouse, closed workhouses, export of enough food to feed the indigenous population four times over (according to the "definitive" Mrs Woodham Smith), the refusal to stop racketeering of the famine relief (again according to the "definitive" Mrs Woodham Smith), and the military backed mass evictions.
Justify those policies or show they didn't happen and you might have a case, your ignoring them only confirms that they did - now that's what I understand as "waffle".
Are you really suggesting that the Russell Government didn't close Peels warehouses or the workhouses - damn - we've all been brainwashed - Keith was right.   
"Emigrate or die" - that was the decision taken and that is what happened.
All of Keith's witnesses have said so and all have blamed the laissez-faire policy and callous indifference for the calamity.
Hiding behind the blight is a load of garbage - it was how the blight was dealt with - or not dealt with caused a million plus deaths and te depopulation of Ireland - not an inevitable catastrophe - not even the most hardened Empire loyalists can hide between that one any more.
Ireland was Britain's responsibility and Britain renaged on that responsibility
End of story
At ease corporal
Jim Christmas


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 10:51 AM

"Professor Mokyr maintains that the 'Hungry Forties' were caused by the overall underdevelopment of the economy during the decades which preceded the famine. In Why Ireland Starved he tests various hypotheses that have been put forward to account for this backwardness. He dismisses widespread arguments that Irish poverty can be explained in terms of over-population, an evil land system or malicious exploitation by the British. Instead, he argues that the causes have to be sought in the low productivity of labor and the insufficient formation of physical capital – results of the peculiar political and social structure of Ireland, continuous conflicts between landlords and tenants, and the rigidity of Irish economic institutions."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 10:55 AM

And by the way - would it be too much trouble for you to make up your mind over Trevelyan? - one minute his opinions were the opinions of one man and don't matter - the next minute they do matter and he's a nice feller - now that's what I call waffle.
Your continuing belligerent approach more or less confirms that you have nothing concrete to offer by way of reasoned argument
It's a little like having sand kicked in your face by a Charles Atlas advert.
Grow up
As you were corporal
Whatever you say Keith - I'm sure you believe you are right and will continue to do so until you read a book, or get someone to read one for you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 11:45 AM

"results of the peculiar political and social structure of Ireland,"
Brought about by the way that Ireland's economy was designed to be part of the British Imperial economy
The same was the case throughout the Empire with each colony acting as part of the Imperial jigsaw puzzle - India, Ceylon, Malaya..... and so ad infinitum
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 03:32 PM

Jim, I do not need a book to tell me I am right that culpability is disputed.
I have actually produced historians disputing it and so has pdq tonight.
I do not need a book to tell me that Kinealy says they are dominant.
YOU posted her into the thread saying it.

IF YOU DENY DISPUTE YOU ARE WRONG!
TELL US IF YOU DO OR NOT.
I WANT OUT!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM

I WANT OUT!

So go already & don't let the door hit you on your fuckwit arse as you leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 03:52 PM

"Jim, I do not need a book to tell me I am right that culpability is disputed."
No you haven't.
Mokyr is an historical economist, not a historian and he refers to the causes of the famine, not the consequences.
His argument is that Ireland's problems were not, as Malthus had propounded, due to overpopulation, but because of a reliance on the potato as a staple diet due to an economy developed under British rule.
He in no way attempts to explain the cause of so may deaths or emigrants - that was not his field.
Grasping for straws doesn't hack it.
The breathtaking arrogance of someone who insists on dominating thread after not having read a book and then declaring "I do not need a book to tell me I am right" is staggering - infallibility indeed; how can
one possibly compete with such genius!
I'll gladly tell you what I think - I think you are a very disturbed, arrogabt and not very bright individual who need help.
I WANT OUT!
Tarry not upon your going but go - **** off, you won't be missed.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 03:56 PM

OK, forget him.
I have produced actual historians and Kinealy identifies others who dispute culpability.
My only case is that culpability is disputed, and it is.

Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 04:27 PM

"Mokyr is an historical economist, not a historian and he refers to the causes of the famine, not the consequences. His argument is that Ireland's problems were not, as Malthus had propounded, due to overpopulation, but because of a reliance on the potato as a staple diet due to an economy developed under British rule."

You took one statement that the professor made and added two that you made from whole cloth.

Most important point is that Irish subsistance farming produced very little value or wealth for the country.

Several large cities like London, Belfast, Glasgow and Edenburg had industrialization that added great wealth to the society for the number of manhours worked.

The Irish were the ones who insisted in keeping their country rural, picturesque and largely free from major roads, indusrtraliazation and sewage treatment projects and even from modern farming techniques.

Their choices, not the Brits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:07 PM

"OK, forget him."
Piss off Keith
You can't5 piull hsitorians out of hats likerabbits and walk away from them when they don't fir as you have throughout this thread
You have shafted yourself on your own arrogance
Now keep your promise and go
You wnated out - you're out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:51 PM

You said he was not a historian Jim.
OK, ignoring him, the dominant view among actual historians is that the government was not culpable.
I have produced actual historians, and Kinealy refers to others and confirms they are dominant.

My only case is that culpability is disputed, and it is.

Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:07 PM

"You said he was not a historian Jim."
He isn't he's an historical economist.
You grabbed him as you grabbed every other historian because you believed he would back your manic hatred of the Irish - he, like all the others exploded in your face.
"The dominant view among actual historians is that the government was not culpable"
The dominant, virtually overwhelming view among historians is that the government was culpable, by its decision to adopt a policy of 'emigrate or die'.
What is under discussion is whether that was a deliberately thought out and adopted policy to solve the "Irish Question" or whether it was the inevitably result of a laissez-faire policy which withdrew famine aid from the dying Irish and forced them to leave the country in order to save their lives.
Trevelyan - who you have still not mentioned, was the advisor they appointed and whose advice they acted on.
He made is own position quite clear when he described the famine described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgment of God".
His was the governing voice throughout the Famine - even when the Russell Government proposed sending more relief, he advised against it and it wasn't sent.   
If you can produce a single historian who denies that happened - feel free to do so.
The Irish agrarian economy was one that existed under British rule - a peasant economy which suited the Empire so it was never modernised.
The blight was unstoppable - the consequences of the blight were serious but the Russell Government tore down the structure of aid Peel had set up in order to let the market flourish.
The British assisted absentee landlords to take over the lands of evicted small farmers.
They adopted a technique of 'cabin-tumbling' (very popular here in Clare). When a tenant was evicted, the bankrupt farmers' homes were systematically destroyed so none of the starving Irish could move into them to shelter - they starved in their thousands at the side of the roads - some of them managed to scrape out shelters in the earth and live like the animals ("the non-racist") Punch Magazine described them as.
The evictions continued through into the early twentieth century and the effects of those enforced evictions became part of the Irish culture.
One of the side effects were the 'Grazier' wars - land wars
The Irish are the people you have described as hating Britain because - to quote you "Generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?".
Ironically they do not hate Britain, certainly not as much as you hate them.
Who on earth do you think you are telling us you don't need to read in order to understand these subjects - you seem to had developed a Messiah complex.
Please drop us a line the next time you intend to walk across your local duck-pond or turn tap-water into bottles of Chianti - I can't wait.
Sleep well - or should I say - I hope you had a restful night - I have no doubt it wasn't disturbed by your non-existent conscience.
Happy hating!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:07 PM

"You said he was not a historian Jim."
He isn't he's an historical economist.
You grabbed him as you grabbed every other historian because you believed he would back your manic hatred of the Irish - he, like all the others exploded in your face.
"The dominant view among actual historians is that the government was not culpable"
The dominant, virtually overwhelming view among historians is that the government was culpable, by its decision to adopt a policy of 'emigrate or die'.
What is under discussion is whether that was a deliberately thought out and adopted policy to solve the "Irish Question" or whether it was the inevitably result of a laissez-faire policy which withdrew famine aid from the dying Irish and forced them to leave the country in order to save their lives.
Trevelyan - who you have still not mentioned, was the advisor they appointed and whose advice they acted on.
He made is own position quite clear when he described the famine described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgment of God".
His was the governing voice throughout the Famine - even when the Russell Government proposed sending more relief, he advised against it and it wasn't sent.   
If you can produce a single historian who denies that happened - feel free to do so.
The Irish agrarian economy was one that existed under British rule - a peasant economy which suited the Empire so it was never modernised.
The blight was unstoppable - the consequences of the blight were serious but the Russell Government tore down the structure of aid Peel had set up in order to let the market flourish.
The British assisted absentee landlords to take over the lands of evicted small farmers.
They adopted a technique of 'cabin-tumbling' (very popular here in Clare). When a tenant was evicted, the bankrupt farmers' homes were systematically destroyed so none of the starving Irish could move into them to shelter - they starved in their thousands at the side of the roads - some of them managed to scrape out shelters in the earth and live like the animals ("the non-racist") Punch Magazine described them as.
The evictions continued through into the early twentieth century and the effects of those enforced evictions became part of the Irish culture.
One of the side effects were the 'Grazier' wars - land wars
The Irish are the people you have described as hating Britain because - to quote you "Generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?".
Ironically they do not hate Britain, certainly not as much as you hate them.
Who on earth do you think you are telling us you don't need to read in order to understand these subjects - you seem to had developed a Messiah complex.
Please drop us a line the next time you intend to walk across your local duck-pond or turn tap-water into bottles of Chianti - I can't wait.
Sleep well - or should I say - I hope you had a restful night - I have no doubt it wasn't disturbed by your non-existent conscience.
Happy hating!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 02:19 AM

I have produced actual historians disputing culpability, and Kinealy refers to others and confirms they are dominant.

My only case is that culpability is disputed, and it is.
Do you know of any book that says that it is not Jim?

Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM

You have produced nothing; you have attempted to show that what happened didn't happen, you are attempting to re-write history.
You and your mate will not respond to the facts that have been presented to you - not even to dispute them with 'facts' of your own.
In the course of your missions you have both let slip the same hatred for Irish peoples that you have for other nationalities and religions in the past.
This time you really have gone too far by turning your hatred on other members of this forum; Irish men and women, Anglo Irish people like myself and American Irish citizens, all "brainwashed" to hate Britain.
If we don't agree with your Messianic claims we have all been conditioned by corrupt and manipulating education systems.
In the past you expressed your contempt for us by saying you are "casting pearls before swine" by arguing with us; you have claimed "infallibility" for your arguments
Now you go the whole hog - the whole world is wrong but yourself.
When you attacked Pakistanis you gathered together a mythical army of social workers and politicians who inspired you (by divine visitation presumably, you never managed to produce an actual statement by one of them) to claim that "all Pakistanis are culturally implanted to have underage sex" (deny this and I'll put it up again).
Here you claim the support of a mythical army of historians who (again by divine visitation - you admit to having read none of them) to rewrite Irish history.
Each of them has crumbled before your eyes and you ask us to "forget" them, as apparently you have - gone in a puff of divine smoke at your command "OK, forget him." abracadabra - your latest knight in shining armour gone in a puff of magic smoke.
Your breathtaking arrogance in declaring that you don't need to read to know what you claim to know really does it - divine visitation again?
You have no serious support here; the only way you manage to cling on to this and other threads you leech onto is by ignoring what is put in front of you.
You work by filibustering these discussions to death until we all walk away in despair and disinterest.
Your friend, the aptly named 'Terpsichore', dances and dodges around the subjects, trying to bluff his way with bluster, bullying and bullshit, insulting us all as he goes (including in his thuggish efforts at one time, one of my long-dead parents, my mother, who he described as a prostitute).
He behaves like a thug, permanently talking down to everybody who opposes us, your technique is a wheedling drip-drip-drip war of attrition.
You are both characters out of Dickens - you, the hand-wringing Uraih Heep, he the thuggish Bill Sykes.
I sincerely hope you have not killed yet another interesting thread with your dogged fanaticism.
It is an interesting topic; I have learned a great deal from this discussion and have been introduced to new facts and new experts in the course of it.
I have no idea how you can possibly know of a subject to appear to be proud to admit you have never read about and have never shown enough interest to rectify that omission.
Now I'll leave you to your Dalek-like repetition of what your voices are telling you and hope to be joined later by somebody a little more sane.
You are a very disturbed, and disturbing individual whose aim in life seems to be to let the British Empire off the hook for all its wrongdoings
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 03:56 AM

"Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say."
Sorry - cross posted
Yoou are totally right - we are all totally wrong - sincerest apologies
Go away
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 04:40 AM

You have produced nothing;

I have produced quotes by historians disputing culpability.
I did so in my very first post to you on this.
The quotes were given with links so they could be seen in context.

I have produced actual historians disputing culpability, and Kinealy refers to others and confirms they are dominant.

My only case is that culpability is disputed, and it is.
Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 07:55 AM

I have apologised and withdrawn my opposition to your overwhelming evidence - puyt it down to a lifetime of brainwashing
You promised to go away
Go away
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 08:43 AM

I have nothing more to say.

Now, THERE'S a lie ........


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 08:50 AM

Now perhaps we can continue uninterrupted by the stalker
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:47 AM

Why did it take so many weeks and so much abuse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:51 AM

Keith: I have nothing more to say.

Ooops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 10:33 AM

THIRTEEN
THE PROPAGANDA OF FAMINE

The propaganda of the Famine
"The English are very well aware that Ireland is a trouble, a vexation, and an expense to this country. We must pay to feed it, and pay to keep it in order ... we do not hesitate to say that every hard-working man in this country carries a whole Irish family on his shoulders. He does not receive what he ought to receive for his labor, and the difference goes to maintain the said Irish family, which is doing nothing but sitting idle at home, basking in the sun, telling stories, going to fairs, plotting, rebelling, wishing death to the Saxon, and laying everything that happens at the Saxon's door.... The Irish, whom we have admitted to free competition with the English labourer, and whom we have welcomed to all the comforts of old England, are to reward our hospitality by burning our warehouses and ships and sacking our towns."
—The Times, July 26,1848
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 10:57 AM

The Irish, whom we have welcomed to all the comforts of old England


Now THAT really IS amusing. Not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:02 AM

More propaganda of Famine
Jim Carroll

Punch cartoons constantly portrayed "Paddy" as a simian in a tailcoat and a derby, engaged in plotting murder, battening on the labor of the English workingman, and generally living a life of indolent treason. This concept of the Irishman was implanted in the popular mind as a given, not merely throughout the Famine but during the Fenian movement that grew out of the Famine and the home-rule campaign some forty years later.
Punch did not rely merely on its cartoons for its simian imagery and an allied anti-black prejudice. It could also write things like the following:
A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes to Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages; the lowest species of the Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is moreover, a climbing animal and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder with a hod of bricks. The Irish Yahoo generally confines itself within the limits of its own colony, except when it goes out of them to get its living. Sometimes, however, it sallies forth in states of excitement, and attacks civilized human beings that have provoked its fury. The somewhat superior ability of the Irish Yahoo to utter articulate sounds, may suffice to prove that it is a development, and not, as some imagine, a degeneration of the Gorilla.
While the simian motif was not confined to Punch, the journal should be regarded as the principal procreant cradle of the species.
A point to be noted about the foregoing type of writing is that many of the Punch contributors were Irish, their contributions to the magazine validating the old axiom that whenever the British needed a stage Irishman for a West End part, they could always be certain of getting an Irishman to portray him. When M. A. Busteed and R. I. Hodgson spoke of "multi-layered Irish demonology" to describe the continuing strain of anti-Irish prejudice in influential English circles, they spoke truly.10 Where the era of the Famine is concerned, a particularly virulent strain of anti-Irish prejudice may be traced throughout the nineteenth century from the first failing of the potato in 1845 to the end of the century, when the ugly growth of prejudice could be seen flourishing in the unlikely setting of the writings of Sidney and Beatrice Webb, influential socialist economists and co-founders of the London School of Economics and Political Science. "Multi-layered" accurately describes this strain, for it was not merely anti-Irish, but contemptuous of blacks, Catholicism, and Celts as well.
The historian James Anthony Froude bolstered the Punch image by writing in 1845 that the people in Catholic Ireland were "more like tribes of squalid apes than human beings."
Such theories were given a pseudo-scientific patina of respectability by the writings of people like Robert Knox, a Scottish anatomist and zoologist and a popular lecturer about race, who wrote, "The Celtic race does not, and never could be made to comprehend the meaning of the word liberty. ... I appeal to the Saxon men of all countries whether I am right or not in my estimate of the Celtic character. Furious fanaticism; a love of war and disorder; a hatred for order and patient industry; no accumulative habits; restless; treacherous; uncertain; look at Ireland."
Charles Kingsley, an Anglican clergyman, historian, and novelist who is best remembered today as a writer of children's fiction including Hereward the Wake and The Water Babies, wrote after a visit to Ireland, "I am daunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country. I don't believe they are our fault. I believe that there are not only many more of them than of old, but that they are happier, better and more comfortably fed and lodged under our rules than they ever were. But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black, one would not feel it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours."13
Thomas Carlyle chose a lower place in the animal kingdom to describe the Irish. He wrote, "Ireland is a starved rat that crosses the path of an elephant: what is the elephant to do? Squelch it, by heaven! Squelch it!"
Apparently not convinced that the squelching process would be sufficient. Carlyle also suggested that the best course for England in dealing with the Irish was to "lead them and put them over with the niggers."
Carlyle's rat reference and his repellent anti-black sentiments could be dismissed as vulgar abuse, but his description of the workhouses and of outdoor works were more damaging and played straight into the hands of people like Trevelyan and Wood, who were looking for ways to stop spend¬ing money on Ireland and increase the clearances from the land. Carlyle first visited Ireland for four days in 1846, during which he saw the blackened potato fields and met with the Young Ireland leader Charles Gavan Duffy, who introduced him to John Mitchel. Carlyle made a comprehensive tour of Ireland in 1849 during which he visited a Westport workhouse. After witnessing the conditions, he wrote, "Human Swinery has here reached its acme, happily; 30,000 paupers in this union, population supposed to be 60,000. Workhouses proper (I suppose) cannot hold 3 or 4,000 of them, subsidiary workhouses, and outdoor relief the others. Abomination of deso¬lation; what can you make of it! Outdoor quasi-work; 3 or 400 big hulks of fellows tumbling about with shares, picks and barrows, 'levelling' the end of their workhouse hill; at first glance you would think them all working; look nearer in each shovel there is some ounce or two of mould, and it is all make believe; 5 or 600 boys and lads, pretending to break stones. Can it be charity to keep men alive on these terms? In face of all the twaddle on the earth, shoot a man rather than train him (with a heavy expense to his neighbour to be a deceptive human swine."
There is no disputing the efforts that the contemporary opinion makers, the Whig spin doctors, exerted in making the Famine seem not so bad. Their propaganda took quite extraordinary forms. In one humiliating tableau designed to show that the government was taking active steps to improve the diet of the starving in April 1847, Alexis Soyer, the French chef at the Reform Club in London, which at the time was the Liberals' own bastion, was brought over to Ireland to add luster to the opening of a soup kitchen in Dublin. Soyer was regarded as one of Europe's leading chefs, and he had garnered considerable publicity in London for devising a soup for the poor that he averred was sufficient to sustain a healthy diet when consumed with a biscuit. The ingredients were "quarter lb leg of beef; costing 1d, to 2 gallons of water, the other ingredients being 2 oz. of dripping; 2 onions and other vegetables 2d; a quarter of a Lb of flour, seconds; quarter lb of pearl barley; 1 quarter; 3 oz. salt and V2 oz. brown sugar; total cost ls.4d. 100 gallons could be made for under £1 including an allowance for fuel.
There was subsequent controversy as to the nutritional value of Soyer's soup. Critics pointed out that it ran through the recipients almost immediately and thus provided little lasting energy, but the most telling criticism of the Soyer performance came from Sir John Burgoyne, who commented on the methodology employed by the authorities in staging the Soyer demonstration. Bowls affixed to chains were provided in the wooden structure erected for this piece of dietary theater. A bell rang and a hundred starving persons were admitted at a time, drank their soup, received a piece of bread, and left the building. Then the bowls were rinsed, a bell rang again, and another hundred of the destitute shuffled forward. Sir John complained that this was treating the poor like "wild animals."15
Various medical experts contested Soyer's estimate of the value of the soup, which, as Mr. Dobree of Sligo wrote, "was no working food for people accustomed to 141bs. of potatoes daily." A liquid diet in itself could not pro¬vide all the essential nutrients required to maintain a healthy body. Experts in Skibbereen who had all too much firsthand acquaintanceship with starvation wrote that the soup "passed through people dangerously quickly and in fact gave rise to dysentery." However, as we have seen in the chapter on souperism and soup kitchens, soup based on more nutritious foundations than Soyer's, when accompanied by bread, did keep people alive, and the use of the chef by the government provided a gala public relations exercise in Dublin, at which members of high society were quoted as finding Soyer's recipe tasty and sustaining.
But the most extraordinary coup was a royal visit paid by Queen Victoria in August 1849. The visit highlighted the nearly incomprehensible, but con¬tinuing, popularity of the British Royal Family (evidenced yet again by the visit of Queen Elizabeth to Ireland in 2011) in a nation upon whom such suffering had been heaped in the name of that same crown. Queen Victoria was welcomed in Cork by displays of loyalty that included coating the
waterfront buildings in sumptuous red cloth. The leitmotif of her visit was symbolized by the banners that greeted her saying, "Hail Victoria, Ireland's hope and England's Glory." Her route was carefully stage-managed. She saw Cork but nothing of the famine-stricken West of the county wherein lay Skibbereen, and she traveled by sea to Kingstown (now Dun Laoghaire) in County Dublin without seeing any other afflicted part of the country. Her drives through Dublin lay through the imposing main squares, and she saw nothing of slums although she perceptively recorded in her diary that she saw more ragged people in Dublin than anywhere else. But, overall, the queen was struck by the beauty of the women and the huge welcome evi¬denced everywhere by cheering crowds and triumphal arches. At Kingstown an old woman shouted, "Ah, Queen dear, make one of them Prince Patrick and Ireland will die for you."17
Needless to say, all this provided endless opportunities for gushing re¬ports in the press depicting an "Ireland of the Welcomes" in which famine did not occur and there were glamor and merriment on a scale not seen in Ireland since the days when she had her own parliament.
John Mitchel has left us a vivid description of another form taken by the influencing of public opinion—straightforward intimidation at election time, when voters who wished to vote against a landlord candidate had to run the gauntlet of bailiff, policemen, soldier, and, if they persisted in disobeying their orders, eviction, with fatal results to themselves and their families.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:03 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:13 AM

such media nonsense is not limited to the past or to a single geographic area...

we have similiar BS used about "welfare queens" and the undeserving "entitlement" leeches... you know them... the smucks that paid into a system such as social security and medicare their entire working careers and have the audacity to expect some return on their investment.

or how about the hatred used against migrant workers? makes you want to cringe and at the same time shout out... That's not me speaking! That's a group of not very nice people who don't care who they hurt, as long as they get what they want.

call it yellow journalism or Fox News... its sole purpose is to divide and conquer. and to the "real" victors, go the spoils


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM

THE POOR LAW COMETH
"Neither ancient nor modern history can furnish a parallel to the fact that upwards of 3 millions of persons were fed every day in the neighbour¬hood of their homes, by administrative arrangements emanating from and controlled by one central office."1
Charles Trevelyan

The foregoing was the glowing praise that Charles Trevelyan bestowed on the operation of the Soup Kitchen Act, much of which he had diligently overseen and for which he felt entitled to take credit. What he did not state was that he had subsequently moved on to play a leading role in the operation of the Irish Poor Law Extension Act of 1847, which effectively undid much of the ben¬efit of the soup kitchens and brought an incalculable amount of suffering and death upon the starving.
The Poor Law Extension Act was the spawn of two conflicting ideolog¬ical parents: one maintained that Irish property should pay for Irish poverty; die other that, for both ideological and economic reasons, relief should not be given outside the workhouse walls. To provide outdoor relief, according to the moralizing political economists, would be both "demoralizing" and ruinous, given the numbers involved. These doctrines were so rigorously ad¬hered to that in some cases they even led to the ending of food distribution within the workhouses.
The workhouse in Cashel, County Tipperary, was suffering from "fright¬ful overcrowding" as Christmas 1846 approached and they had to turn away five hundred people who were eligible for admission but for whom there was no room. Because of their eligibility, the workhouse authorities, as was done elsewhere, gave the five hundred one meal a day inside the workhouse, arguing that this could not be considered outdoor relief because the food was eaten inside the workhouse. Officialdom would not accept this plea and said the practice had to stop.
However, back in London realization had set in that the work scheme had been a disaster and that something fresh had to be attempted. Barely a month after Cashel was forced to deny the starving five hundred, Lord John Russell announced a policy reversal. It made way for an expansion of the poor law to allow for the introduction of outdoor relief later in the year.
This legislation depended first on an impossibility and second on a cru¬elty. The impossibility lay in the principal assumption underlying the poor law extension, namely that it would be paid for out of the rates (local taxes) collected in Ireland. The doctrine on which this decision was based, that Irish property should pay for Irish poverty, would have been better phrased "Irish poverty must support Irish property."
The ruinous state of the country generally and that of the landlord class in particular has already been described. Even before the failure of the po¬tato, in 1844, the Conservatives, who were never in any danger of being accused of excessive tenderheartedness where the collection of Irish taxes was concerned, had taken part in a spectacular demonstration of the dif¬ficulties of extracting blood from a stone. In Mayo only one-quarter of the rates nominally due were collected even after the rate collectors had been provided with the following backup: two companies drawn from the Sixty-ninth Regiment, one troop from the Tenth Huzzars, fifty police, police inspectors, and two magistrates—backed up by two revenue cutters and a major warship, the Stromboli. This was not an isolated case. In the same year it had taken the deployment of seven hundred troops to collect the rates of neighboring Galway
This use of the army and the navy to collect rates had been debated in the House of Commons. The Whigs were fully aware of the difficulty of rate collection and the general situation regarding destitution in Ireland. What Trevelyan knew, chancellor of the exchequer Charles Wood knew. It would be an absurdity to suggest that the pair somehow managed to keep the prime minister and their cabinet colleagues in the dark over Ireland. Trevelyan, whatever his other faults, could not be accused of laziness. Every detail concerning relief had to be brought to his attention. In order to deal with a mountain of paperwork and the decision making this necessitated, he moved into a flat away from his wife and family so that he could work undisturbed, even over Christmas. He censured Sir Randolph Routh for wanting to take holidays at Christmas so that he could attend the vice-regal festivities, pointing out the "impropriety of appearing in public when the lives of such multitudes of persons depend on your unremitting exertions."2 Events were to prove, however, that Trevelyan's concern on that occasion was based not so much on sympathy with the "multitudes" as on public rela¬tions considerations.
For, as that grisly year of 1847 wore on, Trevelyan decided that the situ¬ation had improved so much that he could now take a well-earned holiday and in mid-August took his family off to France. Before going, in prepara¬tion for the coming into effect of the Poor Law Extension Act, which had become law on June 8, he oversaw the closing down of the soup kitchens and ordered the ending of the sale of meal from government depots. The in¬struction to these depots was clear: "Ship off all, close your depot and come away" Any meal remaining in the depot at the time of closure was either sold at market prices or, if unsold, removed in a government ship.
Trevelyan's view was that government relief had made the people worse, not better, and that the time had come to "try what independent exertion will do." By the beginning of October, the last soup kitchen and food depots in even the most distressed areas had ceased operations. Trevelyan described the cessation as follows: "The multitude was again gradually and peacefully The ringing declaration on rates was in part make-believe, in part a fig leaf for the true Treasury policy of getting rid of surplus population to make way for that longed-for "new ownership" that would create larger farms and would substitute cattle for potatoes. The real situation throughout much of Ireland where rates were concerned was eloquently, if despairingly, described by Colonel George Vaughan Jackson, a good resident Mayo landlord who was doing his best to maintain both his estate and his tenants in appalling circumstances. He wrote, "No men are more ill-fated or greater victims than we resident proprietors, we are consumed by the hives of human beings that exist on the properties of the absentees. On my right and my left are properties such as I allude to. I am overwhelmed and ruined by them. These proprietors will do nothing. All the burden of relief and employment falls on me. 11
The following month, on December 16, 1847, Lord Sligo, another landlord, wrote to The Times explaining what the poor law meant in prac¬tice: "On the express condition that they should make no provision for the future.... There are now therefore, at this moment, in obedience to the law. 26,000 people in Westport who are destitute of food, fuel and clothing.... The long account of money spent will not feed the crowds of destitute, the rates cannot do it, and if the union be left to that fund alone, these myriads must perish by famine."
The government had a most precise and up-to-date awareness of the truth of the situation described by Lord Sligo and Colonel Vaughan Jacksor Lord Clarendon himself bore out the truth of their observations, telling Sir George Grey the home secretary, that unless financial aid was forthcoming, "I dread some calamity . . . some hundreds dying all at once of starvation, which would not only be shocking but bring disgrace on the Government."14
However, he received nothing but contempt in response to his ap¬peal. Grey replied, "It may be that if numerous deaths should occur the Government would be blamed ... but there is such an indisposition to spend more money on Ireland, that the Government will assuredly and severely be blamed if they advance money to pay debts."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 12:29 PM

What's a historian?

Do you have to roll a trouser leg up or anyth