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BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found

Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 14 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 11:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 11:57 AM
Musket 15 Mar 14 - 12:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 12:24 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 14 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 14 - 05:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 06:45 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 14 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 06:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 14 - 08:25 AM
Musket 16 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 09:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 14 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 14 - 03:09 PM
Teribus 17 Mar 14 - 04:37 AM
Musket 17 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 14 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 14 - 05:29 AM
Musket 17 Mar 14 - 06:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 14 - 06:06 AM
Teribus 17 Mar 14 - 10:42 AM
Greg F. 17 Mar 14 - 11:32 AM
sciencegeek 17 Mar 14 - 01:58 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 14 - 02:44 PM
Musket 17 Mar 14 - 03:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 14 - 04:31 PM
Teribus 18 Mar 14 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 05:47 AM
Teribus 18 Mar 14 - 08:48 AM
sciencegeek 18 Mar 14 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 11:47 AM
Teribus 18 Mar 14 - 12:08 PM
sciencegeek 18 Mar 14 - 12:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 14 - 02:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 14 - 04:27 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM

Jim, she is attacking Revisionism.
She is not a Revisionist, but she says most historians are, and have been for nearly ninety years!
Your are dishonest and wrong to claim there is no dispute.
There is, and I did not deserve to be attacked and abused merely for pointing out that truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM

"Jim, she is attacking Revisionism."
She is indeed - not your distorted interpretation of "revisionism"
You have consistently and quite deliberately misused the term 'revisionism' to avoid addressing the facts of British culpability.
You are still doing so.
One more time:
TREVELYAN'S LETTER EXPRESSED CLEARLY GOVERNMENT POLICY - ACT OF GOD - CLOSE WORKHOUSES AND GRAIN STORES - ENFORCED EMIGRATION - CULL THE POPULATION - UNQUOTE!!
I will continue to put this statement up and I have no doubt you will continue to ignore it - which is fine by me; every time you do so will be a further exposé of your lying dishonesty and yet another hole in your already well-riddled credibility.
"Your are dishonest and wrong to claim there is no dispute."
Don't you dare call me a liar - if you have any evidence what exactly that dispute is and how it contradicts anything I have said, tell us what it is; so far you have only alluded to it.
Jim Carroll
This from the Dictionary of Irish History Studies.
Revisionism
"For others, professional historians born in an independent Ireland and former students of the Institute of Historical Research in London, the British relationship is not paramount. For them, the Famine was a historical problem to be coolly dissected and demythologized. Anxious to wean the Irish public away from myths of the past, the revisionists tended to play down the importance of the Famine, or suggested that it was somehow inevitable and not the fault of the British government"


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

By the way - your deliberate misuse of the term "revisionism" was pointed out to you right at the beginning of this discussion, so you are not in the position to claim it was accidental.
You are in fact a "revisionist" as far as the English language is concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 10:36 AM

She is not a Revisionist, but she says most historians are, and have been for nearly ninety years!

Keith, you know fuck-all what she is or what she says, never having read any of her works.

Now, piss off back to fuckwit land, like a good lad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM

"Now, piss off back to fuckwit land, like a good lad."
Now why o I doubt that - he'll be haunting this thread till his keepers find him and take him back to the asylum
Jim Cattoll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 11:44 AM

Kinealy,
"Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts."

She uses Revisionist in the same way that I do.
That is the usage in this context.

"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2Z7fhxnXV

Robert Nielson.
The most controversial issue in Anglo-Irish affairs is the allegation that food was exported during the Famine. This was first claimed by Irish nationalists as a reason to end British rule and the Famine certainly put an end to the idea that Ireland would be a part of the United Kingdom for good. However, it is extraordinarily difficult to prove the claim true or false, and to my knowledge no one has. Records of exports simply weren't kept or have since been lost. It is certainly true that some food was exported, but there is no way of knowing how much or if it would have prevented the Famine. Food was also imported, though again, it is unknown where this outweighed the food that was exported. The starving Irish had little money so merchants naturally (in their mind) sold it abroad where they could get a better price. Had a ban on exports been put in place, lives would have been saved, but how many is unknown.
http://robertnielsen21.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/was-the-irish-famine-genocide/

Human limitations and timidity dominate
the story of the Great Famine, but of great and
deliberately imposed evil in high positions of
responsibility there is little evidence. The really great
evil lay in the totality of that social order which made
such a famine possible and which could tolerate, to the
extent it did, the sufferings and hardship caused by the failure of the potato crop.

http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/KS3_Famine_Interpretations.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 11:57 AM

Do you three sillies get it yet?

In the context of the famine, nationalist historians blame the government, and revisionists do not.

Kinealy is a nationalist, but concedes that is a minority view and long has been.

Blame is disputed.
That FACT can not be disputed.

You ARE dishonest if you claim otherwise Jim.

Stating that true fact does not make me a "fuckwit" or any of the other nasty things you people call me when you have no rational reply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 12:14 PM

People don't have a rational reply to irrational bollocks.

Fuckwit


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 12:24 PM

"Irrational bollocks"

It is irrational that you deny that some historians find that Britain can not be blamed for the famine, when I have quoted historians actually stating exactly that!

I am right.
It is disputed.
You three are, as ever, WRONG, and all the offensive and gratuitous abuse and name calling in the world can not hide your ignorance of the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 01:14 PM

Fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM

TREVELYAN'S LETTER EXPRESSED CLEARLY GOVERNMENT POLICY - ACT OF GOD - CLOSE WORKHOUSES AND GRAIN STORES - ENFORCED EMIGRATION - CULL THE POPULATION – UNQUOTE
ow youi are openly offering doctored opinions
You are a lying, shameless holocaust denier
You have carefully selected from Neilsons opinion (that's what it is) to make your lying case
What he actually wrote was:
It was not murder or genocide that killed so many, but neglect. The government believed in laissez-faire economics or what would now be called free market fundamentalism (I have a post on the issue here). They believed that the government should not interfere with the market or it would only make the situation worse. They believed (like many today) that aid to the Irish would only make them lazy and dependent on handouts. They believed Ireland was over-populated and welcomed emigration to America. There was certainly a lot of racism, but I believe the larger motivator was aristocratic disgust for the poor. The government didn't believe that poor people should be helped no matter how desperate their situation or what their nationality was. This, and not some genocidal master plan, was why so little was done during the Famine.
The Famine was the greatest calamity in Irish history. People needlessly died due to cold-hearted indifference and the elevation of the market above the lives of people. Nowhere near enough aid was given as prejudice won out over compassion. Laissez faire turned into Leave them to die. But this was a crime of neglect, not genocide. There never was intent to destroy the Irish. Had the government really wanted to exterminate the Irish, they would have done more than let natural disasters run their course. The claims by Coogan and others, while passionate, simply do not have enough evidence to support themselves.
Christine Kinealy actually wrote:
A more invidious variation of this theme is that the population of Ireland today is descended from the survivors—sometimes even described as the 'winners'—of the Famine period, thus implying a collective guilt amongst Irish people. Moreover, it has been suggested, that because a number of interest groups may have benefited from the economic dislocation of the Famine years, it is unfair to blame any other group for responding inadequately to the Famine. Survival and success, however, do not negate the suffering and starvation—either directly or indirectly—of the vast majority of the population.
No practical impediment to government intervention
Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense. Throughout the eighteenth century, and in 1817, 1822 and indeed, in 1845, the Irish and British governments imported food for resale in Ireland. In the subsistence crisis of 1782, an embargo was placed on the export of grain from Ireland, despite the opposition of Irish grain merchants. Furthermore, in the subsistence crisis of 1845 to 1847, which occurred throughout Europe, governments throughout the continent responded by temporarily closing their ports to exports (Portugal, Turkey, Russia, amongst others). This was, in fact, a traditional response to Famine conditions. Also, as the Corn Law crisis proved, there was no practical or ideological impediment to government intervention in the market place when it suited the purposes of the government.

WHAT IS YOUR - AND CHRISTINE KINEALY'S DEFINITION OF REVISIONISM ANED HOW DOES YOUR CLAIM OF WHAT HERS IS TIE UP WITH WHAT SE WROTE?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 05:33 PM

some historians find that Britain can not be blamed for the famine, when I have quoted historians actually stating exactly that!

Uh, fuckwit, some "historians" claim that the Holocaust never happened, that Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili was a misunderstood humanitarian and that the universe is only 6000 years old.

You are apparently among their intellectual equals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 06:45 PM

You have carefully selected from Neilsons opinion (that's what it is

Yes.
He is a historian.
There is dispute, as I said.

Definition of revisionism, Kinealy,
"In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history. This approach became known as 'revisionism'."

" A key objective of Irish revisionism was to exorcise the ghost of nationalism from historical discourse and to replace it with historical narratives that persistently played down the separateness and the trauma, and derided the heroes and villains of Irish history."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM

""In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history"
The "traditionalist nationalist view of history" has been to deal only with the effects of the famine and not discuss its causes - to rely on emotion rather than facts - Kinealy has said that and it is above for you to read if there are not too many words for you to cope with.
That is her accusation against the revisionist view of history - it's all up there - read it.
Kinealy, Neilson and every other historian have squarely laid the blame of the consequences of the Famine on the Russell Government.
All of them have taken pains to point out the closure of the warehouses and workhouses, the shipping of food out of Ireland, the laissez-faire policy which put the Imperial economy above the well-being of the Irish people.... that has been a major part of all the writings on the subject.
A few (very few) have attempted to justify those actions as unavoidable, but not one single historian has ever attempted to deny them - they couldn't if they wanted to - they are established facts of history.
You, on the other hand, have refused even to acknowledge them - to you, they are unimportant.
You are doing what no historian would dare do - you are attempting to absolve the British Empire from all blame - a familiar agenda with you.   
In a way, all historians are 'revisionists' on the subject - none of them have dealt with the Trevelyan letter and its implications of deliberate ethnic cleansing.
Kinealy makes a point above and in one of her books, which I have just finished, that one of the problems with discussing the history of the Famine today is the likelihood of giving comfort to dissident Republicans at a time when a United Ireland is being negotiated - it's a fair point.
I personally can't see how such a statement from Britain's powerful representative in Ireland cannot possibly be construed in any other way than 'ethnic cleansing and holocaust' - it was Trevelyan's openly stated view and he was left in office after he expressed it - he was later honoured for his services by a grateful Government.
You will, no doubt, ignore all this and continue to distort and misrepresent history in the way you have now made a regular habit in doing.
The only value of discussing anything with you is to allow you to show yourself up as the Jingoistic Empire Loyalist that you are.
You have no support here and you have had virtually none on any important thread you have contributed to.
You have used phrases like 'pearl before swine' to describe those who oppose you and have declared yourself "infallible" - so you have claimed superiority over virtually every member of Mudcat - ignorant "swine" all.
You are now a figure of fun every time you take part in debates, especially ones like this where you openly admit that you have not even the interest to read up on them - have you really never read a book on something you spend so much time pontificating on - is that the level of your interest?
Yours in anticipation of even more entertainment today
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM

""In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history"
The "traditionalist nationalist view of history" has been to deal only with the effects of the famine and not discuss its causes - to rely on emotion rather than facts - Kinealy has said that and it is above for you to read if there are not too many words for you to cope with.
That is her accusation against the revisionist view of history - it's all up there - read it.
Kinealy, Neilson and every other historian have squarely laid the blame of the consequences of the Famine on the Russell Government.
All of them have taken pains to point out the closure of the warehouses and workhouses, the shipping of food out of Ireland, the laissez-faire policy which put the Imperial economy above the well-being of the Irish people.... that has been a major part of all the writings on the subject.
A few (very few) have attempted to justify those actions as unavoidable, but not one single historian has ever attempted to deny them - they couldn't if they wanted to - they are established facts of history.
You, on the other hand, have refused even to acknowledge them - to you, they are unimportant.
You are doing what no historian would dare do - you are attempting to absolve the British Empire from all blame - a familiar agenda with you.   
In a way, all historians are 'revisionists' on the subject - none of them have dealt with the Trevelyan letter and its implications of deliberate ethnic cleansing.
Kinealy makes a point above and in one of her books, which I have just finished, that one of the problems with discussing the history of the Famine today is the likelihood of giving comfort to dissident Republicans at a time when a United Ireland is being negotiated - it's a fair point.
I personally can't see how such a statement from Britain's powerful representative in Ireland cannot possibly be construed in any other way than 'ethnic cleansing and holocaust' - it was Trevelyan's openly stated view and he was left in office after he expressed it - he was later honoured for his services by a grateful Government.
You will, no doubt, ignore all this and continue to distort and misrepresent history in the way you have now made a regular habit in doing.
The only value of discussing anything with you is to allow you to show yourself up as the Jingoistic Empire Loyalist that you are.
You have no support here and you have had virtually none on any important thread you have contributed to.
You have used phrases like 'pearl before swine' to describe those who oppose you and have declared yourself "infallible" - so you have claimed superiority over virtually every member of Mudcat - ignorant "swine" all.
You are now a figure of fun every time you take part in debates, especially ones like this where you openly admit that you have not even the interest to read up on them - have you really never read a book on something you spend so much time pontificating on - is that the level of your interest?
Yours in anticipation of even more entertainment today
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 05:10 AM

That is her accusation against the revisionist view of history - it's all up there - read it.

I have, several times.
She does attack the revisionist view of famine History.
She is part of the dispute that you deny.

That whole essay that you copied is about that dispute.
She is anti-revisionist, but concedes that revisionists are "dominant" and long have been.

All I have ever said is that it is disputed.
I was right, and you were wrong to ridicule and abuse me for it.
The "fuckwit" was right and you were all wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM

"She does attack the revisionist view of famine History."
You've been told what her attacks on the 'Revisionist view"' are - she says exactly what it is and I've pointed it out to you
"You were all wrong".
Don't you find the constant repetition of this disturbing, even from your own point of view?
All you have ever said is "Britain didn't do it" - how could you possible say anything else never having been interested enough to read a book on the subject?
By the way - did you know that Christine Kinealy has been compared to Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith the "revisionist"
This (critical) review put her point of view perfectly - don't know enough on the subject to make my mind up one way or the other
but it does outline her approach to revisionism pretty well.
You're a jingoistic idiot, bur please keep it up - I don't start work for a couple of hours
A Death-dealing Famine
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 06:56 AM

I'll be happy to continue doing this while you are happy to continue making a fool of yourself by denying what's there for all so see
Jim Carroll
The Great Irish Famine was a turning point in the development of modern Ireland. In the space of six years, Ireland lost 25 per cent of her population through death and disease. This statistic alone marked the Irish Famine as one of the greatest human tragedies in modern European history.
Yet it is not only the number of people who died which makes the Famine such a tragedy. It is also the way in which they lost their lives. Death from famine or famine-related diseases is slow, painful and obscene.
Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain.
This year marked the 150th anniversary of 'Black '47' – the single year when disease, suffering and mortality were at their highest. But the Famine did not end in 1847. In 1849, the level of mortality was almost as great as it had been in 1847.
Today – even though famine still exists in the world – it is hard to imagine the suffering, the sense of loss and the trauma of Irish people during those years. The recollections of a survivor of the Famine years convey some of this loss:
In A Death-Dealing Famine she "focuses on the key factors which nurtured both policy formulations and the unfolding of events in mid-nineteenth-century Ireland. These include political ideologies, such as the influential doctrine of political economy; providentialist ideas which ordained that the potato blight was a 'judgement of God'; and an opportunistic interpretation of the crisis that viewed the Famine and the consequent social dislocation as an opportunity to reconstruct Irish society. Kinealy also examines the roles of the Irish landlords and merchants, political factions in Westminster and the pivotal role played by civil servants within the British government."
http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/knealy.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 08:25 AM

All you have ever said is "Britain didn't do it"

Completely untrue!
I have never expressed an opinion about it and do not even have one.

All I ever said was that historians dispute it.
They do, so why all the abuse, swearing and name calling?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM

Perhaps the irritating "I'm right and you are wrong" gets on people's' nipples?

Compounded by being an inaccurate observation most of the time....


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 09:00 AM

One of the only things left to say is until you show enough interest in this or any subject you use to back up your blimpish jingoism to read something on it you will never be anything more than the laughing stock you have become on this forum.
You have ignored everything that has been put before you, you have not shown the slightest desire to learn anything of the subject in hand and once again, you are backtracking on something you have said throughout this argument
Historians do not say what you clam they have said - you made it up.
You have had enough of Kinealy to know what stance she takes
Yu have already changed your tack on this thread and denied doing so (see above) - from the start your line was that Britain was in no way responsible for the Famine and you then scurried around for cut-'n-pastes which you mistakenly believed backed your case.
Your misunderstanding of the term "revisionism" was, is and will remain a classic example of idiocy.
You have blankly refused even to acknowledge points before you over and over again
You are now refusing to respond to the facts about Kinealy even though you have had three lots
Let's face it Keith, you are not very good at your flag-wagging blimpishness; your behaviour is crude and transparent and it has attracted comment every time you've displayed it - baiting you has ceased to be fun.
Go away and come back when you've read a book, you have become tiresome and I'm far too busy to waste time entertaining idiots.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 09:12 AM

Kinealy writes about the dispute.
She is part of the dispute.
She says that revisionists do not blame the government.
She says what I say about the dispute.

I claim no knowledge of the famine, except that blame is disputed.
Jim alone has posted pages and pages of telling one version only.

Even to state the fact that there is a dispute creates outrage among the forum fascists.
No-one dares to say anything else and the BS section is dwindling away after being such a vibrant place for so many years.

Not even putting up the other case, but just daring to state there is one produces a shit-storm of foul-mouthed abuse, vilification and ridicule.

The forum used to be a better place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM

"The forum used to be a better place."
It did indeed
Nobody else behaves the way do on Mudcat Keith, if they did it would not be worth remaining a member.
"Stand not upon your going, but go".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 03:09 PM

What is my behaviour?

I dared to say that there is another view to that of you and the forum fascists.
I did not even put the alternative view, just the suggestion of it was too much for you.

In return, not reasoned response, but vile, foul mouthed abuse, vilification and ridicule.

With people like you on the forum, ordinary decent people fear to put a view in case it brings down on them that shit storm of mindless abuse.

You people have deprived Mudcat of somewhere to exchange views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 04:37 AM

1: Trevelyan's letter if that is the one written on the 9th October 1846 to Thomas Spring-Rice, Lord Mounteagle, is one in which Trevelyan gives HIS opinion and evaluation of the situation. No Government Policy is described in any detail and the failure of the land owners to accept their responsibilities is highlighted. No mention is made of the closure of workhouses or grain stores, no mention is made of enforced emigration and no mention is made with regards to culling the population.

If anyone wants to read the letter in it's entirety I provide a link below:

Trevelyan's Letter


2: One thing you omit to mention the relief given by the British Government was at the time unprecedented and was ten times that of the next largest charitable source of relief. It was also greater than all other donations combined.

3: You also seem to conveniently forget precisely how "government" works in a Parliamentary democracy - things are voted on and there are times when members of the political party in power will vote against the government. Those in power then were not the professional politicians of today whose only loyalty is to their party and to keep it in power for as long as possible by whatever means available. You mentioned the "Corn Laws", the importance of which was their repeal to allow free trade and the end of protectionism for home grown wheat for both British and Irish farmers. Peel succeeded in pushing through the repeal of the old protectionist Corn Laws of 1815, but it cost him his Government as he lost the vote on his Bill on Catholic Emancipation. He knew full well that the Whigs who had voted for him on his repeal of the Corn Laws would not vote with him for Catholic Emancipation so he deliberately crashed his Government to put the matter to the people.

4: For all the talk about how the British Government should have done this and they should have done that, not one single person, not one single historian has come up with any detail as to how they could have actually achieved what was required. If anybody doubts what I am saying, just cast your minds back a few months to Typhoon Haiyan, how long did it take for the relief effort and international aid to get organised? How long did it take to get through? How long will it take for that relief effort to show any real effect as far as the lives of the people affected go? And that is with all the benefits of modern technology immediately to hand - None of which were available to the British Government in the period 1845 to 1851.

Did the Famine strike throughout Ireland? No it did not. If you look at the parts worst affected take a look at the means of communication and transportation. Very simplistically people talk about an embargo on the export of food from Ireland, which supposedly had worked in the previous famine in 1782 (Same people conveniently forget that the famines of 1727-1730; 1740-1741 & 1782-1783 were nowhere near the scale of the famine of 1845-1847) - just how was all this food being grown in Ireland to be preserved and distributed to the areas that needed it? No ports, no railroads, very poor road networks, no storage facilities, no distribution network. The most successful survival technique adopted by people suffering from the ravages of widespread famine throughout time has always been - MOVE. In Cecile Woodham-Smith's definitive account of the famine, "The Great Hunger", she details the number of people who died in Ireland from malnutrition in the course of a normal year - it was astounding somewhere in the region of 250,000 IIRC. She also makes the point that if that was considered "normal" then things have to get far, far worse before things get noticed. She also clearly states that the great killer in the years 1845 to 1851 was not hunger it was disease and that the thing that depleted the population of Ireland more than anything else between the years 1845 to 1851 was neither, starvation or disease - it was emigration - i.e. people MOVED.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM

It is difficult to exchange views when one member, let's call him.. I don't know, Keith, for the sake of giving him a name, tries stifling debate by continually finding snippets, often out of context, on websites that support one view or seem to, and use that to try and stop debate by applying a "this is right, therefore you are wrong" perspective.

Debate is debate. Web crawl Top Trumps is subjective at best and boorish at all times.

Oh, and putting the words of others without qualification and then trying to say you haven't expressed a view doesn't help your credibility or lack of.



I can confirm that potatoes are abundant in Ireland again. I had hash browns as part of my breakfast this morning at Bewleys in Leopardstown. Still got a thick head from last night in Templebar, but got to get a bit of work done today before spending the next few days here with my lad, who flies in tomorrow morning. Beer to drink, spuds to eat and old friends to catch up with. (Also, rather excited about doing a turn at The Oliver St John Gogarty Wednesday night. A bit of an honour.)

Still, waffling on about me being in Ireland is at least more on topic than claiming the opinion of a historian is different to the same opinion and historian when you first mentioned her, eh Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:17 AM

I do not recognises any such Keith.
This one has just said that there are different versions of famine History that are known as nationalist and revisionist.
That is a fact so I was, and am, right about that.

No "trawling" required Musket.

So, do you now accept that I was right all along?
If not, point out specifically anything I have got wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM

Trevelyan was an appointee of the Government - the responsibility for what happened was theirs, not his.
Had his opinions on such a fundamental matter coming from someone holding such a vital post conflicted, in any way conflicted with theirs he would have been dismissed - he was honoured for his work in Ireland - I million dead and mass immigration forever.
The government adhered to his wishes to the letter because they were one and the same.
In the end his was the voice that decided Ireland's fate
When the Government softened and decided to send ship-loads of seed corn for relief, he opposed it - none was sent.
It was the Government decision to dismantle was Peel had set up - not Trevelyan's.
The Government closed the workhouses and warehouses, adopted a policy of laissez-faire and mass immigration - not Trevelyan.
Britain put the interests of the richest and most powerful Empire on the planet before the lives of the Irish people - a million died and many millions were forced to emigrate - that is the judgement of history.
It is not the job of historians to "come up with a solution - it is their job to judge if the actions taken were the right ones - all have said that they weren't.
It doesn't hack it to blame the staff - it was Government policy, pure and simple, that was responsible for the outcome of the famine.
Whether the Government shared Trevelyan's views was immaterial - it was his opinions that were translated into action (or should that be inaction)
Jim Carroll

Trevelyan, Sir Charles Edward (1807-1886), British civil servant. As assistant secretary to the Treasury, 1840-59, he virtually dictated relief measures during the GREAT FAMINE (1845-9 . Together with the Prime Minister, LORD JOHN RUSSELL, and Chancellor of the Exchequer, SI CHARLES WOOD, he was totally committed to free trade; in addition he held the belief that the famine resulted both from a benign Providence seeking to reduce an expanding population and from 'the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.' From March 1846 he controlled public works through the disbursement of public funds. He defended the export of grain from Ireland on grounds of free trade; when rioting broke out in protest at the exporting of corn he deployed mobile columns of two thousand soldiers (who were provisioned with beef, pork, and biscuits) 'to be directed on particular ports at short notice.' He was opposed to railway construction as a form a relief and successfully opposed Russell's scheme for the distribution of some £50,000 worth of seedlings to tenant-farmers. Informed bv an official, 4 September 1847, that 'the face of the country is covered with ripe corn while the people dread starvation' and that 'the grain will go out of the country, sold to pay the rent' Trevelyan (who had never visited Ireland) replied, 'It is my opinion that too much has been done for the people. Under such treatment the people have grown worse instead of better: and we must now try what independence exertion can do . . .' In 1848 he ceased Treasury grants to distressed POOR LAW unions, though by now there was an outbreak of cholera. Later in the year he was knighted for his services to Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM

Trevelyan was an appointee of the Government - the responsibility for what happened was theirs, not his.
Had his opinions on such a fundamental matter coming from someone holding such a vital post conflicted, in any way conflicted with theirs he would have been dismissed - he was honoured for his work in Ireland - I million dead and mass immigration forever.
The government adhered to his wishes to the letter because they were one and the same.
In the end his was the voice that decided Ireland's fate
When the Government softened and decided to send ship-loads of seed corn for relief, he opposed it - none was sent.
It was the Government decision to dismantle was Peel had set up - not Trevelyan's.
The Government closed the workhouses and warehouses, adopted a policy of laissez-faire and mass immigration - not Trevelyan.
Britain put the interests of the richest and most powerful Empire on the planet before the lives of the Irish people - a million died and many millions were forced to emigrate - that is the judgement of history.
It is not the job of historians to "come up with a solution - it is their job to judge if the actions taken were the right ones - all have said that they weren't.
It doesn't hack it to blame the staff - it was Government policy, pure and simple, that was responsible for the outcome of the famine.
Whether the Government shared Trevelyan's views was immaterial - it was his opinions that were translated into action (or should that be inaction)
Jim Carroll

Trevelyan, Sir Charles Edward (1807-1886), British civil servant. As assistant secretary to the Treasury, 1840-59, he virtually dictated relief measures during the GREAT FAMINE (1845-9 . Together with the Prime Minister, LORD JOHN RUSSELL, and Chancellor of the Exchequer, SI CHARLES WOOD, he was totally committed to free trade; in addition he held the belief that the famine resulted both from a benign Providence seeking to reduce an expanding population and from 'the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.' From March 1846 he controlled public works through the disbursement of public funds. He defended the export of grain from Ireland on grounds of free trade; when rioting broke out in protest at the exporting of corn he deployed mobile columns of two thousand soldiers (who were provisioned with beef, pork, and biscuits) 'to be directed on particular ports at short notice.' He was opposed to railway construction as a form a relief and successfully opposed Russell's scheme for the distribution of some £50,000 worth of seedlings to tenant-farmers. Informed bv an official, 4 September 1847, that 'the face of the country is covered with ripe corn while the people dread starvation' and that 'the grain will go out of the country, sold to pay the rent' Trevelyan (who had never visited Ireland) replied, 'It is my opinion that too much has been done for the people. Under such treatment the people have grown worse instead of better: and we must now try what independence exertion can do . . .' In 1848 he ceased Treasury grants to distressed POOR LAW unions, though by now there was an outbreak of cholera. Later in the year he was knighted for his services to Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:29 AM

In addition, of course, it was Government policy to give the landlords a free hand and evict tenants who were unable to pay rent, they even provided the forces of law-and-order to do it - this went of for decades after the famine ended.
Don't thik Trevelyan can be held responsible for that either, but maybe I've missed something!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 06:02 AM

Whilst waiting for the man I am here to see, I got bored so am sad enough to have a quick look at Mudcat.

Great to see my posts still here on this thread at any rate.





Yeah, Keith, you are right all along. Far right at times, but if it stops you coming out with pompous shit, then let's all worship at the temple of Right Keith.

Right.





Still waiting. I came in on the Luas tram, but he is driving in and Dublin centre is a bit on the busy side today. You'd think there were roads blocked off for parades or something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 06:06 AM

Just point out anything I got wrong then Musket.

Confident prediction-you won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 10:42 AM

Ah Christmas after wading through your usual pointless and ill-informed waffle it becomes abundantly clear that you simply didn't bother reading Trevelyan's letter then?

The Famine existed through the years 1845, 1846 and 1847.

How much of a railway network could have been constructed in that time using the technology available? Considering of course that the work would have to have been carried out by "weak and hungry people being forced to undertake hard, physical labour" - your words Christmas not mine.

Fields of corn were the answer then eh? How were all those tiny parcels of land to be prepared for this crop of grain? Indeed was the land even suitable for planting wheat? How was this seed corn to be transported and distributed? What would the yield be per half or quarter acre? Enough to feed the poor beggar who had to put in all that work plus his family? I somehow doubt it.

Seedlings were another answer were they? What type of seedlings Christmas? Or, as I suspect, do you just simply not know the difference in terms between seed corn and seedlings?

Tell me Christmas when canals became big in mainland Britain for the transport of goods who was it built them? The "Government" or private enterprise? Who was it that built and improved the roads? "Government" or private enterprise? Who was it built the railway networks, "Government" or private enterprise?

Oh by the way take a look at the history of railways in Ireland I think it would surprise you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 11:32 AM

Another British Empire Imperialist heard from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 01:58 PM

well... it would seem that changing the thread name from famine to blight did little if anything to change the need to battle over past events....

How about we instead look to lessons that could and should be learned from past mistakes/events....

Lesson number one... beware vulnerabilities in your food supply. Reliance on a limited number of food plants or animals - not just kind but also the genetic strains of each- increases vulnerability to disease and reduced production. Translation... don't put all your eggs in one basket if you want to protect your food supply from getting smashed.

Lesson number two... there are always those who seek to take advantage or profit from another's misfortune... politics and profiteering are two of the most exploitive human activities I can think of.

Lesson number three... good intentions need to be coupled with knowledge & understanding to affect a positive result.

It is most likely that the maize imported was actually flint corn... which needs to be made into hominey to be edible... which is why grits (ground from hominey) is a mainstay food down south. Cornmeal is ground from dent corn and usually mixed with wheat flour for baking, or cooked into a mush or fritter. And you still need to add beans to provide a complete mix of amino acids necessary for a healthy diet. Introducing rutabagas would have worked better in the early years of the blight... imho.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 02:44 PM

I have been long familiar with Trevelyan's letter - what's your point?
The British Government decided to do nothing that would effect the Imperial economy and they made that perfectly plain.
They dismantled the efforts of the previous government and put nothing in its place - that is what caused the catastrophe, not Trevelyan's opinion of the Irish, which was shared by a large percentage of the British establishment anyway.
It was the genocidal inaction that every single historian who has written on the subject has condemned - the racism that was behind it just explained that inaction.
Opening shops so those who had been ruined by the catastrophe could go and buy food just about sums up the mentality of the powers-that be.
This was pretty well confirmed when they prevented farmers from rebuilding their lives by allowing the landlords to evict those worst affected by that Famine - even providing backup - Clements - Lord Leitrim, was one of the worst examples
The railway project was suggested as part of the famine relief scheme to provide employment, while at the same time opening out the rural economy - not just an act of charity - even that was refused.
Instead, meaningless labour projects were devised, like building walls across open moorland, through woods and over mountains, which served no useful purpose whatever.
Around here we have what are still referred to as 'The Shilling Walls' across the old landed estate
Peel's Government sent five shillings to be paid to each man who worked on a project to build 'Famine walls' over a local landlord's estate - the English landlord who was responsible for distributing the relief paid only one shilling per man - hence 'The Shilling Walls
The actions taken (and not taken) by the British Government during and following the Famine virtually depopulated Ireland; Trevelyan's attitude is an indication of why.
Again - what's your point.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 03:05 PM

You don't ask much Keith!

Not enough hours in the day nor charge in my iPad to list your terminological inexactitudes. Anyway, the taxi awaits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 04:31 PM

OK Musket just pick one.
Confident prediction-you won't.

Jim,
It was the genocidal inaction that every single historian who has written on the subject has condemned -
Not true.
the racism that was behind it just explained that
False premise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 03:05 AM

"The British Government decided to do nothing that would effect the Imperial economy and they made that perfectly plain."

Rather at odds with the fact that they actually did more than everybody else combined isn't it?

But then perhaps you would have preferred it had they actually done nothing? There was certainly no deliberate intent with a view to the genocide you speak of.

Very good post from sciencegeek

"Lesson number one... beware vulnerabilities in your food supply. Reliance on a limited number of food plants or animals - not just kind but also the genetic strains of each- increases vulnerability to disease and reduced production. Translation... don't put all your eggs in one basket if you want to protect your food supply from getting smashed."

In Ireland of the 18th and 19th centuries the dependence in certain places was brought about by a mixture of debatable necessity coupled with indolence and ignorance.

"Lesson number two... there are always those who seek to take advantage or profit from another's misfortune... politics and profiteering are two of the most exploitative human activities I can think of."

Land Agents and the Gombeen Men the vast majority of whom like the land owners were Irishmen.

"Lesson number three... good intentions need to be coupled with knowledge & understanding to affect a positive result."

Failed unprecedented reactions of the British Government faced with a unique crisis of unparalleled magnitude that basically they were not equipped to deal with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 04:25 AM

"Rather at odds with the fact that they actually did more than everybody else combined isn't it?"
Been there - done that
Ireland's fate in such circumstances was the direct responsibility of the British Empire, Peel's Government acknowledged that fact and made some attempts to alleviate the catastrophe.
The Russell administration abandoned that responsibility, dismantled the few, inadequate measures that Peel had installed and decided to give the market a free hand; they actually stated than nothing should be done to hinder the free market.
Their role wasn't just passive, but an extremely active one - continuing to ship food out of Ireland, which was already known as "England's Breadbasket", putting armed guards on the locked warehouses and providing military support for the evictions that had begun in 1847.
It's sole contribution to the crisis was to create a situation where the only solution to the crisis was to emigrate (stated policy) and set up assisted passage schemes
They deliberately set out to alter the economic and cultural structure of Ireland so it would no longer be the thorn in the side of the Empire that it had been for centuries - and they would have succeeded had it not been for the continuing opposition of 1867 and the Land League Wars, eventually leading to the War of Independence.
Whether the death toll was deliberate or just a spin-off of British action/inaction remains a moot point among historians, the fact that it was a result of it is part of the history they have documented - everything stated by the historians Numbnuts has put up says exactly that.
To say that the most wealthy and powerful Empire on the planet was not in a position to do anything about it is, as Christine Kinealy pointed out "nonsense":
"Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense"
You really should read what your friend has put up.
Another quote summing up Britain's 'inability' to honour its direct responsibility:
"Following the defeat of Napoleonic France in 1815, Britain enjoyed a century of almost unchallenged dominance and expanded its imperial holdings across the globe."
The gombeen men were a side effect - in no way a cause, and to blame them is the same as blaming Trevelyan - Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they delibarately abused that responsibility fot the 'good of Empire'.
Woodham-Smith described other types of exploitation - that of relief supplies being purchased by English and Irish merchants, deliberately shipped back and forth across the Irish Sea up to four times before they were unloaded, in order to manipulate the selling prices upward; prolonging the already extreme shortages - part of the 'free trade' that the Russell administration had pledged itself to.
Britain not only did nothing, but it manipulated that 'nothing' in order to gain political and economic capital out of the 'Great Famine'.
After it was over, they continued to support and actively assist the Landlords, Clements, Vandeleur, Stackpole... the English 'gombeen men', to evict the survivors, leading to revolts and permanent land warfare.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 05:47 AM

Britain's 'Famine Relief' efforts
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 08:48 AM

"Ireland's fate in such circumstances was the direct responsibility of the British Empire, Peel's Government acknowledged that fact and made some attempts to alleviate the catastrophe."

Direct responsibility of the British Empire eh? How? Did the British Empire have a Parliament then Christmas? If it did I have never heard of it, or anyone who purportedly led it? Where would this British Empire Government stand in precedence and relation to say the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1845? Would it be superior or inferior? Of course no such parliament existed and there was no overriding monolith called the British Empire, even if there was it would have no say with regard to affairs in Ireland post the Union in 1801 which made Ireland part of the United Kingdom.

The Tory Government of Robert Peel and the Duke of Wellington wanted to do more for Ireland than just simply repeal the 1815 Corn Laws they wanted to push ahead with Catholic Emancipation, but the Corn Law topic split their party and Peel needed help from the Liberal Opposition. The Government lost a vote in the Commons and Peel went to the country which returned Russell's Liberal government.

"The Russell administration abandoned that responsibility, dismantled the few, inadequate measures that Peel had installed and decided to give the market a free hand; they actually stated than nothing should be done to hinder the free market."

That was the ticket that they had been elected on and the Corn Laws of 1815 remained repealed. I think that the one thing that yourself and Ms Kinealy have forgotten is that the political process in the UK does not run on diktat, if a law has to be passed it must first be presented and debated in the House of Commons and passed, it then goes to the House of Lords where they can suggest amendments and then it gets passed into law.

"Their role wasn't just passive, but an extremely active one - continuing to ship food out of Ireland, "

To suggest that it was the British Government who insisted that food be shipped out of Ireland is just fanciful nonsense, the Corn Laws having been repealed, meant that those who farmed and grew the food could sell it where they liked for the best price their crops could sell for. Remember these were "Irish" farmers selling their produce, and that there was no way of getting this produce to the west of Ireland and no means to store and distribute it there. No point at all in apportioning blame where it does not belong or in suggesting totally impracticable solutions and fancifully imagining that things could be done that were impossible at the time.

"It's sole contribution to the crisis was to create a situation where the only solution to the crisis was to emigrate (stated policy) and set up assisted passage schemes."

Yep that just about sums it up – Ireland was vastly over-populated, it's track record was extremely poor as were its future prospects unless things were done to get people off the land. Judge for yourself, famines in 1727-1730; 1740-1741; 1782-1783, what would you suggest? Just let things drift on as they were, hoping for the best, with a burgeoning population boom only serving to make matters worse in the future? Not even sheep are dumb enough to remain on hills with no grazing.

"They deliberately set out to alter the economic and cultural structure of Ireland so it would no longer be the thorn in the side of the Empire that it had been for centuries - and they would have succeeded had it not been for the continuing opposition of 1867 and the Land League Wars, eventually leading to the War of Independence.

The economic and cultural structure of Ireland did need altering, some say it still does as recent events have shown.

"Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense" - Christine Kinealy

Idiotic argument – that would have required legislation passed in Parliament. Do you want ports opened or closed? If you have closed the ports for exports how do you get imports in? Imports of what? The famine did not just strike in Ireland it struck the whole of Europe and every country in Europe was buying up American cereal crops so what is it that you are going to import that wasn't already being imported?

Ms Kinealy conveniently dismisses the lack of ports, the lack of railways and the poor roads as mere inconsequential details. But real problems and lack of infrastructure cannot be by-passed and dismissed in retrospect with a wave of a historians magic wand. Food once harvested tends to go rotten rather rapidly unless it is distributed quickly. In 19th century Ireland that just couldn't happen.

"Following the defeat of Napoleonic France in 1815, Britain enjoyed a century of almost unchallenged dominance and expanded its imperial holdings across the globe."

Fail to see the relevance of this

"The gombeen men were a side effect - in no way a cause"

On the contrary Christmas in the west of Ireland the Gombeen men were the cause by forcing fishermen to sell their gear and boats, to repay their debts at ruinous interest, thereby crippling them twice over, once by robbing them of their livelihoods and twice by robbing the population of a bountiful source of protein.

This next one is the typical "socialists" mantra (i.e. It is always some else's fault):

"Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they deliberately abused that responsibility for the 'good of Empire'."

Ehmm No. Ireland was the responsibility of the people who lived there, same as Scotland was the responsibility of the Scots who lived there (No equivalent of the Gombeen Men in Scotland Christmas – so the Highlands did not suffer as badly as the west of Ireland).

Drink any Guinness yesterday Christmas? Arthur Guinness as Irish as they come, his grandson Sir Benjamin Lee Guinness had his hands on the tiller of the Guinness family fortune between 1839 and 1868.

"By 1855 Guinness had become the richest man in Ireland having built up a huge export trade and by continually enlarging his brewery"

Hey Christmas – what are the ingredients for making porter? What were the ingredients required in the years 1845 to 1851? All the British Governments fault eh?

"Woodham-Smith described other types of exploitation - that of relief supplies being purchased by English and Irish merchants, deliberately shipped back and forth across the Irish Sea up to four times before they were unloaded, in order to manipulate the selling prices upward; prolonging the already extreme shortages - part of the 'free trade' that the Russell administration had pledged itself to."

And the activities of those English and Irish merchants being legal could be prevented by the British Government how?

"Britain not only did nothing, but it manipulated that 'nothing' in order to gain political and economic capital out of the 'Great Famine'."

I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 10:06 AM

"I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."

An unworthy statement in my opinion. Why not ask the same about slavery or the Holocaust?

There is a huge difference between the actions of individual people and their motives for short term gains vs. what is the "enlightened self interest" of nations. You only need to observe the antics of the Tea Party in the US to see the same narrow minded self interest in action.

Man's inhumanity to man goes back as far as you care to look. As long as there are people with power who lack empathy for their fellows, this kind of behavior will persist... new place, new circumstance, but same behavior and outcome... It's the fact that they have the power/ability to put their decisions into effect that causes such hardships. Be they big business or politicians makes little difference to those who end up with the short end of the stick.

As for whining songs... see how cheerful you are if you lose most of your family to starvation and are forced from your homeland... those people were victims of discrimination coupled with a natural disaster that no one of that era was equipped to handle. There is no call to mock their plight.

Britain as a nation carries the stigma... while those culpable made out nicely for themselves and are now as dead as the famine victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 11:33 AM

Utter gibberish - you have the facts - you have the statements of the historians - you have the actions of Landlord, with full official British support - you have the consequences
You offer pro - Imperialist bluster in return.
"And the activities of those English and Irish merchants being legal could be prevented by the British Government how?"
By closing the ports to such trade, as Kinealy suggests - how simple could that have been?
Britain backed the free market - that is how the free market operates.
You dismissal of Keith's star witness, Christine Kinealy somewhat gives your support for his case a sever kick in the goolies - perhaps time for an emergency script meeting to enable you both to sing from the same hymn sheet.
"interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads"
Many thanks for your summing up of the Irish attempts to record their history in verse - somewhat reminiscet of members of the British establishment's "whinging Yids" following the events of World War Two, don'tcha think?
After all they're/we're all only t'ick Paddies who deserved "God's punishment.
Hope you don't mind my mentioning it, but you always become frenetically repetative with your use of "Christmas" when foundering your way through problematic facts you can't handle in any other way - a little unimaginative.
Perhaps I can help with some variations – 'Christmas' was fairly popular in junior school, as was 'Lewis' (but I suppose literary references are a little out of your depth)
Why not try "Carroll is a girl's name" for a change – never failed to raise a smile.
Keep flag-wagging Territoon, Terpitude, Colonel Blimp, Chocolate Soldier, Bar-room brigadier, Colonel Chinstrap – whatever you prefer.
Comon boyp – show a little inventiveness – you have become rather childishly boring.   
Yours in anticipation
Christmas Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 11:47 AM

Sorry sciencegeek
I left my posting on the back-boiler for too long before I sent i without checking if anybody had intervened with an intelligent comment -hence the cross-posting.- my sentiments exactly
These discussions certainly bring them scurrying out of the woodwork
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 12:08 PM

Sciencegeek, I was not the one promoting the myth that Britain gained politically and economically from the disaster, nor did I infer that if they did it was done deliberately.

Problem lots of people in a confined and finite space are repeatedly suffering from food shortages and famines - The only solution is to get them to move, so as to prevent it happening again.

Odd in all the critics castigation there is no mention of landlords who not only paid passage for those evicted tenants but also bought land for them in Canada and in the USA. No mention of troops being sent out to ensure that eviction notices were adhered to refusing to do so on arrival and who as complete units returned to their barracks having left all their provisions with the people they had been sent there to see evicted.

No criticism leveled at the utter lack of assistance given to their parishioners by the Catholic Church in Ireland.

"those people were victims of discrimination coupled with a natural disaster that no one of that era was equipped to handle."

Precisely right across the board.

"There is no call to mock their plight."

Nobody is mocking their plight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 12:42 PM

this is the line I was responding to... if not yours, my apologies...
"I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."


regarding this"
Problem lots of people in a confined and finite space are repeatedly suffering from food shortages and famines - The only solution is to get them to move, so as to prevent it happening again."

Easier said than done... especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

Logistics is the "devil in the details" that hinders or prevents the implementation of most "solutions".   And since it is most unlikely that sex will become unpopular anytime soon, there is a critical need to reduce the population reproduction rate... the math is simple, but our ability to respond correctly is not looking good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

you have the statements of the historians

Only Nationalist historians Jim, who are a minority.

How is Kinealy my "star witness" except that she acknowledges that revisionist historians are the dominant view.
(Except on Mudcat obviously)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 02:22 PM

"Only Nationalist historians Jim, who are a minority."
Go and play while the adults are talking Keith - how many times have you been told that Christine Kinealy isn't a nationalist
"Nobody is mocking their plight."
"interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 04:27 PM

Christine Kinealy is a nationalist famine historian.
She attacks revisionists in her History Today essay that you copied.
She also explains the difference which you so struggle to understand.

You claim to be well read, but have you ever read a work by a revisionist who she is clear have the dominant position among historians?


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Mudcat time: 18 September 12:52 PM EDT

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