BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 09:15 AM

no idea where the rest of the original post went...

BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular.

Anymore than I make excuses for the mean spirited politics and bigotry that allows hunger to exist in America - hardly an impoverish nation or in the grips of a famine- because of the greed of a privileged few that control an unreasonable amount of money and influenece... al so they can accumulate even more wealth than they already have. camel hell... a T-rex would have a better chance getting through that eye of a needle than some of these SOBs.

But that is human nature at its lowest, and I dare you to deny that such attitudes were not present in 1847 Britain... or that the quest for short term success was less important to the ruling classes than the welfare of the poor.

Forty years earlier, Britain managed to move troops and supplies in Europe during their wars with France & its allies... a daunting task... but they pulled it off. Where there's a will, there's a way... as the old saying goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

On "Coffin" Ships here is another possible contender for ships that could justly be called "Coffin" Ships – Look up Sir Edward Pine Coffin,

More likely William Sloane Coffin, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:10 AM

"Where there's a will, there's a way"
Exactly - The British Empire was incredibly wealthy at the time of the Famine - more than capable of relieving the suffering of the Irish people other than allowing them to die or forcing them to emigrate
There is no argument that these were the choices made - pretty obvious from the fact that neither of these comedians have responded to these facts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM

All you have to do is transfer the situation in Ireland to say, Birmingham, and see if the decisions taken would have been acceptable, or even conceivable there THEY WOULD NOT.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:15 AM

There is no argument that these were the choices made

Yes there is.
Most historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:45 AM

Sorry... this would read better as

"But that is human nature at its lowest, and I dare you to deny that such attitudes were not present in 1847 Britain... or assert that the quest for short term success was less important to the ruling classes than the welfare of the poor."

Food was exported from Ireland during the famine... and not by the starving poor, I dare say. Then who, pray tell?

And your premise: "Well yes logically it is easier to move people from a place in which all they will ever be able to do is subsist and suffer, with ever increasing frequency, chronic food shortages and unemployment." is based on what? That large sections of the Irish land mass somehow disappeared... or was made sterile? Or is is actually that large tracts of land had been "given" to political allies of the ruling British classes... leaving the Irish to be "tenants" in their own country, while the agricultural products were exported by enrich the coffers of the "new" land owners.

Don't worry, it's not like it hasn't been done elsewhere... America has nothing to be proud about when it comes to our treatment of Native Americans. The "lucky" survivors got stuck onto reservations... with high unemployment and other social ills that are "obviously" their own fault... for what? losing out to an overwhelming horde of European invaders?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 11:42 AM

"Most historians."
Which choices exactly are disputed -
Closing warehouses - don't think so.
Closing warehouses - nope - definitely happened.
Laissez-faire policy - nope, down in black and white
Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish - likewise
The British Government appointing such a man to feed the people he hated - a million corpses to confirm this.
Coffin ship casualties - done and dusted
Irish left only the choice of dying or leaving Ireland - ancient history
Being racially abused both in England and America - libraries full of books on the subject.
Murderous evictions leaving thousands of families to starve on the roadside (a practice which continued to the end of the 19th century) - a legacy to prove it.
Your and your blustering mate's refusal to even acknowledge a single one of these doesn't mean they didn't happen - only that you support them having happened and would no doubt, should such circumstances recur, do so again
Rule Britannia
Yup - definitely a Dalek
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 01:39 PM

That second should read 'closing workhouses' - happened
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 02:59 PM

This isn't fair you know Keith...

Every time I call you a soft cunt, some soft cunt of a moderator removes the post.

Yet you can insult our intelligence all day. I suppose the dumbing down on TV had to reach internet debate too eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:56 PM

The Revisionist historians, the dominant view, do not support your case Jim.
As Kinealy said,"Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:40 AM

"The Revisionist historians, the dominant view, do not support your case Jim."
You vindictively opened this thread to score a point.
You've clung on to some mythological 'opposition' by some mythological 'historians' (all the ones you have named so far have proved to be saying the opposite to your pro-Empire case) to keep this thread open.
I have laid out all the information I have and asked you to challenge it
I have offered to revise my note to the song that all this started with (Skibbereen) if you show me where I have gone wrong.
Your response is to continue to skulk behind a manufactured case based on historians you haven't read and, because you have no interest in this (or any subject you choose to vandalise) will never read.
I have invited you to show us where those things I listed - the factors that allowed a million people to starve and tore apart a nation in order to profit an Empire - are wrong.
You ignore that invitation, so you have no case; you have never had a case, and you never will until you actually attempt to learn something about these topics you leech onto.
Once again (25 Mar 14 - 11:42 AM ) answer the points or go away.
I have little doubt that you will refuse to do so and will go on to have your customary last word.
You really are one disturbed and disturbing individual
You need to ask yourself why you are a member of this forum and why you persist on doing the damage that you persist on doing to these discussions
Please go away - you are a mess
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:45 AM

I am not arguing History, I am discussing historiography.

My case is just that historians are divided on these issues, and that is a fact.

You can not deny that fact, but neither can you bear to have it posted.

That is how a simple statement of fact by me has reduced you and Musket to mindless abuse and name-calling.

I have nothing else to say on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:52 AM

Ah Christmas:

1: Very pleased to read that you do not think that 625,000 people died crossing the Atlantic and for confirming that the 125,000 figure you stated was untypical as stated by Joel Mokyr.

2: Who assembled hastily acquired and unprepared ships? Not the British Government. By the way there was nothing hasty at all about the trans-Atlantic timber trade and the trade in goods between Canada and America and Great Britain.

3: Neither the United States of America or Canada would have been built or established as the countries they are today without the influx of immigrants. Those nations desperately wanted them the people who lived in the landing port cities did not.

4: Very pleased to hear that you consider Mitchel's work on the subject to be purely propaganda and should be ignored as a source of reliable information with respect to this subject.

5: The concept of the workhouse was introduced to Ireland in 1838. By 1845 there were 128 workhouses in Ireland, by the end of the famine there were 163 of them. A question for you Christmas. If all the workhouses were closed in 1846 as you say, what were the additional 35 workhouses built for, and who built them?

6: IIRC Christmas it was yourself that proposed Tim Pat Coogan as a bona fide Historian and dismissed Hastings because he was a tabloid journalist. I pulled you up on your hypocritical double standard (Not for the first time and I am sure it will not be for the last)

7: I don't think Sir Charles Edward Trevelyan is in any state to sue Tim Pat Coogan for defamation or libel. But didn't you state that you had tried to find any corroborative evidence of the letter and proof that it was written by Trevelyan but could find nothing whatsoever?? As far as I can see there is no proof at all. Does it have to be challenged? No. Does the lack of a challenge indicate that it must be authentic? Again No.

8: "I should have thought a denial of Trevelyan's authorship would have sent Coogan's case tumbling, don't you?"

Ehmm Christmas the letter was sent under a pseudonym, you said. Who can authoritatively deny or confirm it? If the letter has been ignored by contemporaries and historians it was probably because it was deemed to be irrelevant. There is no mention of his "fact finding mission" to Ireland in 1843 and no reference to any connection between Philalethes and Charles Edward Trevelyan. But if there was such a mission entrusted to a senior civil servant then the fact that his report details some extremely honest opinions voiced as pretty unpalatable truths that should come as no surprise (Modern day equivalent – Wikileaks diplomatic cables?)

The Trevelyan letter to Lord Mounteagle castigates the land owners in Ireland NOT the people, not surprised that you haven't picked up on that as it does not comply to your prejudices. In the popular thinking of the time as previously stated the "God's punishment" was pretty common not only amongst the rich and powerful but also amongst the Irish people and the Roman Catholic Clergy ministering to them. That by the way was another fact that you conveniently ignore as you vector in on Trevelyan.

"Indolent Irish"? Refer to Professor Joel Mokyr he paints a picture that explains why things happened the way they did, your inference that all things were sweetness and light prior to the arrival of the famine and that evil Great Britain took advantage , is a monstrous misrepresentation. If the famine was a case of deliberate genocide then the British Government made a pretty ham-fisted attempt at it don't you think? Surely if it was deliberate then they would have killed people off with far greater efficiency? I mean 5,000 trips across the Atlantic and only 59 ships sink? Why not all of them? That would certainly have been within their power and competence.

The problem is that you and sciencegeek look at the period and apply 21st century thinking to it. Your paucity of solutions practicable at the time is the best indication of this. You also ignore facts that work against you with a perverseness that defies belief.

1: Britain should have closed Irish ports to export of domestically grown foodstuffs

This would have hit and harmed those producing the food and not all food grown in Ireland was exported. The production figures for home grown produce in Ireland fell dramatically during the Famine years while the imports of products particularly cereals expanded enormously. The repeal of the Corn Laws allowed that to happen. Had the Corn Laws not been repealed then the effects of the famine would have been worse but Peel's Tory Government would have remained in power. Peel crashed his Government on purpose to give the people of the United Kingdom a voice and that election returned Russell's Whig government. The hand-over of the handling of the situation in Ireland was smooth, and NO Christmas, NOT ALL Government aid was stopped.

2: Irish crops should have been sent to the parts of Ireland affected by the blight.

Yes fantastic idea as long as you can actually transport the stuff there and get it distributed before it rots. The physical means of transportation simply did not exist so that blows that "remedy" out of the water. Did they try to get food to where it was needed? Damn right they did. Was the lack of food the thing that was killing the people – NO IT WAS NOT, and the means to counter what was actually killing people was not understood until THIRTY YEARS AFTER the end of the famine. Typhoid was a killer taking crowned heads of Europe as well as the poorest in society.

3: Public works? Ask any farmer how walls benefit windswept fields. "Roads to nowhere"? Well they didn't lead to nowhere back in the late 1840s and if you are going to bring in food to distribute you have to roads that can allow transportation by wagons – cart or pony tracks just don't hack it.

4: Could things have remained as they had been in Ireland? No most certainly they could not. The series of famines that preceded that of 1845 and the burgeoning population all tied to land that simply could not support them was only going to perpetuate the problem and exacerbate it with increasing frequency. As I have stated before not even sheep are stupid enough to remain on hills with no grazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 04:05 AM

You know, there is a world if difference between mindless abuse and abusing the mindless.

As you seem to be so wedded to absurdity, how can anyone act otherwise? You won't listen to reason, you infuriate people by saying disagreement with you makes them. "Wrong" and continually find sympathetic quotes rather use your intelligence and give us a Keith analysis. When someone states their own view, you want to know where they got it from. That alone sums you up.

I wouldn't call it abuse, I'd say people are being ultimately kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 04:07 AM

"I have nothing else to say on this."
You never have had - just Imperialistic rantings
"Very pleased to hear that you consider Mitchel's work on the subject to be purely propaganda and should be ignored as a source of reliable information with respect to this subject."
I didn't say that so please stop distorting what |I did say.
Mitchel used the factual behavior of the British Government to further the cause of Irish Independence, for which he has my respect.
Everything else is waffle and denial.
You have the facts of the famine - I make the same invitation that Keith has just done a runner from
Which choices exactly are disputed -
Closing warehouses - don't think so.
Closing workhouses - nope - definitely happened.
Laissez-faire policy - nope, down in black and white
Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish - likewise
The British Government appointing such a man to feed the people he hated - a million corpses to confirm this.
Coffin ship casualties - done and dusted
Irish left only the choice of dying or leaving Ireland - ancient history
Being racially abused both in England and America - libraries full of books on the subject.
Murderous evictions leaving thousands of families to starve on the roadside (a practice which continued to the end of the 19th century) - a legacy to prove it.
Your hit and run bullying and blustering bullshit may impress your mates around closing time but it really doesn't alter anything.
The factors I have listed turned a natural disaster into a holocaust - disprove them or GFY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

You never have had - just Imperialistic rantings

A lie Jim.
Nothing I have said could be described thus.

My case was just that historians are divided on these issues, and that is a fact.

You can not deny that fact, but neither can you tolerate it being posted, so here we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

"Joel Mokyr's Why Ireland Starved took pains to refute the Malthusian
argument that the Famine was inevitable due to the overpopulation of
pre-Famine Ireland. Indeed, Mokyr found that "there is no evidence
that prefamine Ireland was overpopulated in any useful sense of the
word. This is important, as Cullen's argument regarding the irrele-
vance of the Famine was essentially Malthusian"
This is an assessment of the Ireland that was developed under colonial rule - Mokyr is one of those cited
THE IMPACT OF COLONISATION ON THE ISLAND OF IRELAND – FAMINE AND EMIGRATION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM

Sciencegeek:

1: "my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight"

And where was this knowledge centred? Where was it accessible and to whom? After all there was no Ministry of Agriculture in the British Government of the day, no Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. So who was it in a position of power to direct things that would have seized on the humble swede as the means to come galloping to the rescue – Rhetorical question sciencegeek there was nothing in place, there was nobody in place to make such a thing happen – There was no BIG GOVERNMENT anywhere in those days – people were brought up to be self-reliant, it was considered a virtue, charity was based on a parochial system of Parishes and was not seen as the job of Government.

2: "I also indicated that some of the well meant relief efforts failed because of ignorance."

Ah so not the deliberate machinations of an evil government hell bent on genocide then? Not the line that Carroll is trying to peddle.

3: "BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular."

The famine as viewed through 21st century eyes, mind you having said that, there is a possible modern day parallel – Afghanistan.
Today we have the "war weary West" willing to leave Afghanistan never to return utterly disgusted by the apparent lack shown by the Afghans of showing any willingness to help themselves. We will leave in full belief and expectation of many that the second the international community departs Afghanistan will descend into yet another decade or more of violence and barbarism – how about that for matching a reflection of "callous indifference" to the suffering of others (With the known precedent that when exactly the same thing was done in 1989, 6 million people suffered for it, repeated this time on the same scale it will more like 12 million). Prevailing prejudice against Muslims in particular? Are there any reasons that you could possibly identify for the average man in the street to harbour those prejudices?

Callous indifference must not be confused with the inability to cope or deal with a problem that has run away from you. Those in power can only do what can physically be done – that is true in disasters that occur in modern times with all our technological advantages.

Judging by the contributions raised by the British public during the famine and by the unprecedented financial assistance given by the British Government at the time, I can see no real evidence of there being prejudice against the Irish as a nation. Prejudice against and mistrust of Roman Catholics throughout mainland Britain was unfortunately very real and deeply seated in the history of mainland Britain, as it was in quite a few other countries the USA being one of them – it was the real politik of the era.

In your outburst against the rich and successful in the USA, I notice you do not describe it as an attempted genocide against the poor, or any other ethnic group by your Government, yet you feel free to throw accusations at a foreign government dealing with an unprecedented crisis about 170 years ago!!

4: "Forty years earlier, Britain managed to move troops and supplies in Europe during their wars with France & its allies... a daunting task... but they pulled it off. Where there's a will, there's a way... as the old saying goes."

Oh sciencegeek, thank you, thank you, thank you, for drawing this (Napoleonic Wars) into the discussion. You have hit upon my specialist subject, which supports everything I have said to do with the transport and logistical problems faced.

"An Army marches on its stomach" was attributed to Napoleon who also instructed his Marshals that their armies must feed off the land – that latter bit was why they tended to lose (Even on French soil) when up against Wellington.

Wellington had learned command of troops and more significantly the art of campaigning in India. And what he learned there was that you have to carry everything with you, that you must never strip the food from the local inhabitants and that you must pay for anything that you do take, most important of all, he discovered the importance of the Ox-cart. There are many memoirs written by both soldiers and officers who fought and campaigned in the Peninsula with Wellington. The one thing that runs common through them all was that when talking about the predominating sound of the campaigns in Portugal and Spain, they all say the same thing – The squeak of axles and the creak of Ox-carts.

I asked you once before about what would be required to transport a fully loaded wagon a distance of 30 miles and bring it back. In a country bereft of food the effort is staggering. Wellington in fighting the French fully appreciated the difficulties.

A battery of six guns required between 160 to 200 horses and over forty wagons to keep it in the field. Armies of the period could only remain assembled for about three days at the utmost other-wise they starved, their rate of advance depending upon the time of year, the ground over which they were advancing, the quality of the maps available and the existence or absence of roads was roughly 12 to 18 miles per day. OK then sciencegeek how does the mountainous and boggy wilds of western Ireland match up to the vast flat plains of Castille? Camped for just over one month outside the Lines of Torres Vedras built by Wellington to defend Lisbon, the French Commander Massena, the most capable of Napoleon's Generals, never even attempted to attack them, yet he lost over 25,000 men to hunger and disease in the countryside laid bare by the Portuguese. Now multiply that by 12 and you have more dead Frenchmen than you had dead Irish men , women and children in "Black '47" by quite a margin.

Now then sciencegeek in those forty years things had not really advanced that much, especially in Ireland so where were the British Government and those in charge of aid distribution going to get the thousands of horses and the hundreds of wagons needed. Where were they going to get the thousands of tons of grain to feed those horses? Where were they going to get the required number of blacksmiths, farriers and wheelwrights? All that before you have even got so much as one meal to one family in need – Piece of cake really isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 07:27 AM

Smoke and mirrors Terminus
Britain simply refused to deal with a famine which had was the consequence of an economy it had imposed on Ireland - a peasant economy based on subsistence existence.
The link you are studiously ignoring shows how Britian, in the midst of the Famine, took the decision to pursue that economy via its laissez-faire policy and use the effect that this had on the Irish population to thin out the dissidents in order to create an "efficient" (subservient) workforce which benefited the Empire - this is exactly what was behind Trevelyan's (3 times repeated) statement that the Famine was an opportunity to rid Ireland of its undesirables.
It was well within the Empires economy and power to ride out the effects of the Famine simply by the continuance and development of Peels' humanitarian policy - instead they decided to depopulate Ireland by (once again), closure of workhouses and warehouses, continuance of food exports, continuance of the laissez-faire policy which had already created subsistence-level conditions among the rural population, forced emigration - finally, the coup de grace - a military-backed, long term policy of mass evictions - it was a calculated plan to bring Ireland to heel - and Trevelyan stated that in so many words.
The long term effects of the Famine could have been overcome with a reformed agrarian economy, instead, the vacated lands were turned over to absentee landlords to continue to exploit them for personal gain and recreation.
No effort was made to feed the starving Irish population, there was no cessation of food exports, no attempts to stop profiteering - just a policy of 'starve or emigrate' - simple as that.
Trevelyan quote from Woodham Smith.
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"
I assume you will ignore this as you have ignored all the other points put before you -that's what you do best, in fact, it is the only thing you do
Jim Carroll (Christmas to you)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 08:44 AM

T... Your arguments would be more persuasive if you were not so narrowly focused on the singular point of denying ANY cuplability of the British rulling classes... the government at the time, if you will.

Your srgument against "1: "my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight"

is based on a typo... "on one" should read "no one" and if you had actually been paying attention to the previous posts that I made, it should have been a no-brainer...

as for the logistics issue... a scholar of the Napoleonic Wars should know that as difficult as it was... IT WAS DONE. Britain got off its ass and waged what was arguably one of the earliest world wars - considering the number of nations involved and the geographic scope of the conflict. They did not "give it a try" and then go home with a sigh and say "oh well, what can you do?"...

Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if nations waged peace with the same enthusiasm as they do conquest.

You just continue with your quibbling... booooring....

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM

I normally do not respond Christmas because what you write is normally a complete and utter load of B'll'cks.

Example:
"It was well within the Empires economy and power to ride out the effects of the Famine simply by the continuance and development of Peels' humanitarian policy"

So are you saying that Black '47 would not have occurred if Peel's humanitarian effort had continued even although by 1846 it was obvious that it just could not cope? Once more I will tell you - People were NOT dying of HUNGER.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:07 AM

"So are you saying that Black '47 "
I am saying no such thing - I am saying that the Russell Govennment chose the policy that decimated Ireland
Stop putting words im my mouth
Your Bar-rrom bluster only manages to convince me that you are totally out of your depth here
Answer the points and save your bullshit for closing time - it doesn't impress.
You have the evidence - even from your own experts - ant there's plenty more for you to ignore if you want it.
I'd never read Mokyr before you put him up - fascinating man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM

Sorry - missed a bit
British policy summed up
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM

1: "Your srgument against "1: "my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight"

is based on a typo... "on one" should read "no one" and if you had actually been paying attention to the previous posts that I made, it should have been a no-brainer"

If you wish to make a point you should at least take the trouble and pay sufficient attention to correcting your mistakes before pressing the submit button - Pardon me for not guessing what it was you actually meant to write.

2: "Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if nations waged peace with the same enthusiasm as they do conquest."

Yes it most certainly would - Now tell me when you've managed to arrange that and I'll cheer with the rest.

3: "as for the logistics issue... a scholar of the Napoleonic Wars should know that as difficult as it was... IT WAS DONE. Britain got off its ass and waged what was arguably one of the earliest world wars - considering the number of nations involved and the geographic scope of the conflict. They did not "give it a try" and then go home with a sigh and say "oh well, what can you do?"

Yes it was done, by Great Britain on a massive scale at sea, and on a minute but extremely significant scale on land. That latter land part was always as part of a far greater effort by Allies that Great Britain funded and kept supplied - So please sciencegeek get things in perspective.

As for your comment that - They did not "give it a try" and then go home with a sigh and say "oh well, what can you do?" I hate to disillusion you but they did precisely that time and time again. Know where the children's song "The Grand Old Duke of York" comes from? Do you know what it was about?

Yes sciencegeek it was done EVENTUALLY both in Portugal and in Spain always using the main access roads and routes with the Royal Navy in support and relying on well established ports up and down the coast it took SIX years to get right and the effort required to mount the relief effort in Ireland you seem to imagine possible would have taken far more in terms of resources (Remember Wellington's Peninsular Army was very small - minute by European standards of the day).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM

I am discussing historiography.

Amusing. You don't know the meaning of the word, Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:49 AM

And answer came there none - which is an answer in itself
Jim Carroll
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

"Joel Mokyr's Why Ireland Starved took pains to refute the Malthusian argument that the Famine was inevitable due to the overpopulation of pre-Famine Ireland. Indeed, Mokyr found that "there is no evidence that prefamine Ireland was overpopulated in any useful sense of the word. This is important, as Cullen's argument regarding the irrelevance of the Famine was essentially Malthusian" - as posted by Jim Carroll

Really?? Because here is what Joel Mokyr and Cormac O Grada wrote in their paper "Famine Disease and Famine Mortality: Lessons from Ireland, 1845 -1850" dated 30th June 1999:

"The Irish famine was not caused by war but by a series of catastrophic crop failures. Its impact was very uneven across regions and classes, but the virtual destruction of the people's main subsistence crop, the potato, for a number of successive years dominated "entitlement" considerations. This, then, was a real famine
in the old-fashioned sense of the word and not a case in which, following Alex de Waal's distinction, a "scarcity" was being confounded with a "famine" (de Waal 1989: 25-28). The Irish famine was a disaster with strong Malthusian features: a catastrophic reduction of the food supply led to major demographic re-adjustment.

So which one is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

"Yes sciencegeek it was done EVENTUALLY both in Portugal and in Spain always using the main access roads and routes with the Royal Navy in support and relying on well established ports up and down the coast it took SIX years to get right and the effort required to mount the relief effort in Ireland you seem to imagine possible would have taken far more in terms of resources (Remember Wellington's Peninsular Army was very small - minute by European standards of the day)."

More fruit salad from the great "let's compare apples to oranges" viewpoint.

Ireland: Land area: 26,598 sq mi (68,889 sq km); total area: 27,135 sq mi (70,280 sq km)


Portugal: Land area: 35,382 sq mi (91,639 sq km); total area: 35,672 sq mi (92,391 sq km).

so a basically unarmed country, smaller than Portugal, would require vast logistical efforts the equal to waging war???

what were they going to do? pelt them with rotting potatos???

they needed good roads because they were hauling cannon & munitions along with food supplies. I never said it would be easy, I said it could be done if the will to do so were there.

In the same time period the Admiralty offered a reward of £20,000 (£1.56 million in 2009 money) "to any Party or Parties, of any country, who shall render assistance to the crews of the Discovery Ships under the command of Sir John Franklin".

To which I am sure the response will be... "why should the Admiralty be responsible for famine relief?".

My point being that the money was there for what concerned them. And that concern was not the welfare of the starving Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Don't know about you Christmas but that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion - In what way could it be possibly construed as a "Policy" (Def: Plan of action to achieve a stated and defined objective).

By the way Charles Edward Trevelyan as a senior civil servant would not set any British Government Policy, that being the sole responsibility of the elected Government of the day. Charles Edward Trevelyan would on the other hand have to carry out any such policy as it affected his stated duties and responsibilities. I thought that I had to explain that Christmas as you earlier posted somewhere that you believed that Trevelyan was running the show entirely off his own bat and was passing orders to Charles Wood and John Russell (Chancellor of the Exchequer and Prime Minister of the elected Government of the United Kingdom respectively) Always helps a discussion if people actually know what end is actually up - prevents the establishment of ludicrous and inaccurate ideas (Christmas is plagued with them constantly).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:58 AM

"Ireland: Land area: 26,598 sq mi (68,889 sq km); total area: 27,135 sq mi (70,280 sq km)
Portugal: Land area: 35,382 sq mi (91,639 sq km); total area: 35,672 sq mi (92,391 sq km).
so a basically unarmed country, smaller than Portugal, would require vast logistical efforts the equal to waging war???

Yes that would be about right, as the British in Portugal had only to feed, provision and supply about 55,000 men at the utmost. To do so in Portugal they had all the ports, and all the main roads. At the time they also had the produce of their allies, Portugal and Spain, to rely on.

Now how many were "starving" and dying of disease in Ireland again? (Wasn't it supposed to be about one million or more wasn't it?) Or doesn't that number, or the scale of the operation, matter, or register with you - you muppet!!

" In the same time period the Admiralty offered a reward of £20,000 (£1.56 million in 2009 money) "to any Party or Parties, of any country, who shall render assistance to the crews of the Discovery Ships under the command of Sir John Franklin".
To which I am sure the response will be... "why should the Admiralty be responsible for famine relief?"

Ehmm No sciencegeek that would not be my response. My response would be in expressing complete and utter amazement that you find it so utterly incomprehensible that the Royal Navy would offer a reward to those who could render assistance with regard to establishing the fate of two missing Royal Navy Vessels and effecting the rescue of their crews? - What is that praiseworthy ethos often trotted out over in the US by members of your military? – No Man Left Behind - see any parallel?

As for money being available £9.95 million (Over one billion today) was spent by the British Government, the next closest contributor to that was the money raised by the Society of Friends roughly £1 million. All the other contributors lumped together did not raise one-third of the money spent by the British Government. You seem to suffer from an astounding lack of perspective for someone who contributes under the name sciencegeek.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 11:11 AM

"Don't know about you Christmas but that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion "
That was the opinion of a policy making Government employee who opposed government policy of increasing aid to the extent that the Government abandoned its plans - his statement reflected government policy and he was awarded for his services in Ireland.
He expressed his opinions before, during and after the Famine - his philosophy was put into practice and one million died - end of story
Stop kicking the milkman's horse.
You are obviously not going to address one single point of Government policy, which is fine - watching you squirm and wiggle is answer enough
The document you cite on Famine causes points out that it was the manner in which the economy had been developed that caused the outcome of the Famine - plenty of other examples to draw from on that one - Sussex Uni, Derry Uni, Belfast Uni, Cork Uni - take your pick
Stop bullshitting and address the facts that have been put before you
You really are as cack-handed as Keith at this, aren't you?
Jim Carroll (Christmas, to you)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:15 PM

What do you mean, "cack handed" Jim?

My case was just that historians are divided on these issues, which is a fact, and I think I expressed it very concisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:18 PM

What,even the esteemed ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:51 PM

"You seem to suffer from an astounding lack of perspective for someone who contributes under the name sciencegeek."

I fear the lack of perspective in on your end...

the ability to only draw conclusions that support your case by distorting any opposing arguments... do you play card games with the same honesty?

Spain & Portugal fluctuated from neutral to allies to opponants... pick a year.

They are also part of a pennisula...

so if a pennisula has ports... how many do you think an ISLAND like Ireland has??? Actually, you don't have to guess... just google..

But the above is in response to your irrelevent dithering....

however, this is what is relevent:

food was exported from Ireland

it was transported to ports & onto ships for export

it was not all grown within a days easy travel to those ports


so I say that it is you who has to explain why food can leave the country, but it too difficult to import & distribute.

or why food grown in Iireland could not have been purchased & distributed locally? or at least transported from the growing areas to those areas of need.

Nobody is asserting that a famine does not have casualties... the argument that I see is that the casualties were far higher than they should have been, in part because of a prevailing attitude among the upper classes that controlled policy and money.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM

"What do you mean, "cack handed" Jim?"
You've not been taking your pills again, have you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:22 PM

30 miles to food..get a runner to tell starving people there is food 30 miles away and some will find a way to get to it and some will die trying. They walked that far and more to the ships that would take them to Liverpool. They walked that far and more to the workhouses. It is said that men ran uphill from Dingle to Tralee for the price of a pouch of tobacco..this is before they were starving.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:53 PM

For fuck's sake loads, President Ml.D. Higgins will be over to the UK in a few weeks. Can we have a truce?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:12 AM

"I fear the lack of perspective in on your end... "

Really?? Here are a few examples that indicate the reverse:

1: "Spain & Portugal fluctuated from neutral to allies to opponents... pick a year."

The oldest and most constant alliance in Europe? That between England and Portugal. Spain were allied with the French, motivated by a desire to regain possessions lost to the British during your War of Independence, until Napoleon forced the rightful King of Spain to abdicate and then put his brother on the throne. From 1808, when the British first landed troops in Portugal, until Napoleon's final defeat in 1815, the Spanish were our allies. Your point is irrelevant, and it displays not only lack of perspective but an astonishing lack of knowledge.

2: "so if a pennisula has ports... how many do you think an ISLAND like Ireland has??? Actually, you don't have to guess... just google.. "

No need to guess and it is you who should do the "Googling". Ireland has many ports, it had many ports at the time we are discussing. Only problem was that they happened to be on the wrong side of the country. Again amazing lack of knowledge and understanding of the problems involved.

3: "this is what is relevant: food was exported from Ireland …… it was transported to ports & onto ships for export ….. it was not all grown within a days easy travel to those ports."

Your lack of perspective and knowledge displayed yet again. Over the period of the famine Irish food exports declined greatly and Irish import of food increased dramatically. There is a very good map showing the extent of the effects of the famine. Looking at that map you will see that the areas least affected tended to be the areas close to those eastern ports and the areas that had decent roads.

4: "so I say that it is you who has to explain why food can leave the country, but it too difficult to import & distribute.

or why food grown in Ireland could not have been purchased & distributed locally? or at least transported from the growing areas to those areas of need."

1840s – right?:

- No refrigeration, no freezers, only methods of preserving food are to dry, smoke, pickle or salt – all take time, all cost money to the producer, all require storage, and not all are suitable means of preservation for the country in question because of climate. So generally crops were harvested and beasts slaughtered and they were sold fresh, or in the case of livestock delivered on the hoof in which case the animals need feeding on the way. The decision to do this is not one taken by Government, or dictated by Government policy, they are decisions taken by the man actually farming the land - Not necessarily the owner of the land.

- Ireland's main trading partner has always been mainland Britain (Ireland's entry into the Common Market was conditional on Britain being allowed in). That is why most of Ireland's best developed ports and cities happen to be on its eastern seaboard – Cork, Dungarvan, Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow, Dublin, Balbriggan, Dundalk, Newry, Belfast. It is evident even today, look at the port facilities in Ireland, much better in the east. Of the ports that do exist on Ireland's western seaboard take a look at the bearing strength of the quays there compared to those of its eastern ports, a reason why Ireland's offshore oil & gas industry is located in the Irish sea and not in the Atlantic, and why any exploration off its Atlantic coast is based out of eastern ports.

- Weather, the prevailing winds are South Westerly making the west coast of Ireland stormbound compared to the more sheltered east coast – So where do you expect ports to be built?

- Population, the eastern side of the country was easier to farm and live in, it was therefore more heavily populated than the west – So where do you expect to find the cities and ports?

- Because those ports are trading ports good roads are essential to allow the transport of goods, livestock and crops – So there is a means of distribution for both exports and imports – sound rational enough for you?

- Over on the west coast there were only two ports developed to any extent Limerick and Galway, the hinterland around them did not consist of rich farmland, it had no large export trade, there were no good roads or bridges that provided easy access to that hinterland.

Now does any of that register? Does that answer your questions with regard to distribution – Simply no means of distributing it existed in the period in question in the west of Ireland.

5: "that the casualties were far higher than they should have been, in part because of a prevailing attitude among the upper classes that controlled policy and money."

As apparently none of you have bothered to read the letter that Charles Edward Trevelyan wrote in answer to Lord Mounteagle I will copy it out in full – Now honest opinion having read it through, who is it that Trevelyan is coming down heaviest on in his criticism of the situation in Ireland – the Irish land-owners or their tenants?

To the Right Hon. Lord Mounteagle

My Dear Lord,

I have had the pleasure of receiving your letter dated 1 inst., and before proceeding to the subjects more particularly treated in it, I must beg of you to dismiss all doubt from your mind of the magnitude of the existing calamity and its danger not being fully known and appreciated in Downing Street.

The government establishments are strained to the utmost to alleviate this great calamity and avert this danger, as far as it is in the power of government to do so; and in the whole course of my public service, I never witnessed such entire self-devotion and such hearty and cordial co-operation on the part of officers belonging to different departments met together from different parts of the world, as I see on this occasion.

My purchases are carried to the utmost point short of transferring the famine from Ireland to England and giving rise to a counter popular pressure here, which it would be the more difficult to resist because it would be founded on strong considerations of justice.

But I need not remind your lordship that the ability even of the most powerful government is extremely limited in dealing with a social evil of this description. It forms no part of the functions of government to provide supplies of food or to increase the productive powers of the land. In the great institutions of the business of society, it falls to the share of government to protect the merchant and the agriculturist in the free exercise of their respective employments, but not itself to carry on these employments; and the condition of a community depends upon the result of the efforts which each member of it makes in his private and individual capacity. …

In Ireland the habit has proverbially been to follow a precisely opposite course, and the events of the last six weeks furnish a remarkable illustration of what I do not hesitate to call this defective part of the national character. The nobility and the gentry have met in their respective baronies, and beyond making presentments required by law, they have, with rare exceptions, confined themselves to memorials and deputations calling upon the government to do everything, as if they have themselves no part to perform in this great crisis of the country. The government is expected to open shops for the sale of food in every part of Ireland, to make all the railroads in Ireland, and to drain and improve the whole of the land of Ireland, to the extent of superseding the proprietor in the management of his own estate, and arranging with his tenants the terms on which the rent etc. is to be adjusted. …

I must give expression to my feelings by saying that I think I see a bright light shining in the distance through the dark cloud which at present hangs over Ireland. A remedy has already been applied to that portion of the maladies of Ireland which was traceable to political causes, and the morbid habits which still to a certain extent survive are gradually giving way to more healthy action. The deep and inveterate root of social evil remains, and I hope I am not guilty of irreverence in thinking that, this being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure has been applied by the direct stroke of an all-wise Providence in a manner as unexpected and unthought as it is likely to be effectual. God grant that we may rightly perform our part, and not turn into a curse what was intended for a blessing. The ministers of religion and especially the pastors of the Roman Catholic Church, who possess the largest share of influence over the people of Ireland, have well performed their part; and although few indications appear from any proceedings which have yet come before the public that the landed proprietors have even taken the first step of preparing for the conversion of the land now laid down to potatoes to grain cultivation, I do not despair of seeing this class of society still taking the lead which their position requires of them, and preventing the social revolution from being so extensive as it otherwise must become.

Believe me, my dear lord, yours very sincerely,

C. E. Trevelyan. Treasury, 9 October 1846.

Don't know about you but it seems to me that he is taking the land-owners to task for not playing their part. Not surprising really as the Devon Commission Report of 1845 came to the same conclusion – Use of land in Ireland, i.e. how the land was farmed, had to be addressed and tenancy conditions had to be improved to benefit the tenant were reforms that had to be carried out urgently. It was just after this report was presented that the famine first struck.

Government response was to repeal the Corn Laws which had previously made it impossible to import foreign corn and controlled artificially high prices for farmers throughout the United Kingdom including Ireland – because of the repeal of the existing Corn Laws the market set the price for corn and cereals (laissez-faire) but it made it easier and cheaper to import corn from abroad. The second part, to address tenancy issues required the passing of a Catholic Emancipation Act. Peel's Tory Government was split on the first issue and the Corn Laws were repealed only with the help of the Opposition. When the Catholic Emancipation Bill came before the House, the Whigs led by John Russell acted as the Opposition were supposed to and voted against, while certain members of the Tory Party took revenge on Peel for the repeal of the Corn Laws and voted with the Opposition causing Peels Government to collapse. In the ensuing General Election Lord John Russell's Whigs were elected to form a Government. By this stage the situation in Ireland had completely outstripped any possibility of direct aid coping and it became plainly obvious that people did just have to move, or die.

So far I have not heard one single practicable solution that the Government should have or could have followed, that they were not already doing. Were mistakes made? Yes of course they were. Could it have been managed better? With hindsight yes, but this disaster was unprecedented in scale and not one single government on the planet at the time was geared up to cope with it. Was there a deliberate policy of genocide put into practice by the British Government? No of course there wasn't and every indication of what was done supports that. If there was a deliberate policy of genocide in place you do not:

- Spend £9.95 million pounds on relief efforts;

- Directly feed 3 million people (Who you are supposedly trying to kill);

- Put three-quarter of a million people (Who you are trying to kill) on work schemes to provide those people with food and a wage;

- You do not provide subsidised passage to assist emigration;

- You do not increase the number of workhouse places by nearly 30% to look after the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:49 AM

Read the Trevelyan letter, the previous long letter and the quote from his later autobiography - all of which express a hatred of the Irish people and a belief that The Famine was not only God's punishment for their evil ways but also an opportunity to rid Ireland of dissidents and undesirables
On its own, it wouldn't matter, it was a view shared by many British leaders - it was presented as a picture of the Irish people in Punch Magazine - still plenty of examples to be had.
What is important was, that knowing Trevelyan's views, they appointed him to a position vital to keep the Irish people alive, they backed his every move, they even abandoned Government policy of providing more relief because he opposed it.
Whatever his mouthings on 'helping the poor Irish' he oversaw the death of over a million people and he facilitated the removal from Ireland of more than a million more.
His policy is, as has been stated; close the workhouses, close the foodstores, oppose with military force any attempts by the starving Irish to feed themselves (go and look up the warehouse riots), and force mass emigration.
That was Government policy, pure and simple.
A possible reason for why the British Government adopted that policy can be seen in the later mass evictions, where the poorer farmers were replaced by wealthy profiteering landowners, essentially giving them control of the land most beneficial to The British Empire - a full economic colonisation of Ireland.
Britain was in the position to help allow Ireland survive the Blight with humanitarian aid - it chose not to; instead it backed the market economy and in the course of doing that, decimated Ireland - at the very least, manslaughter in any court.
You have studiously avoided discussing actual British police, toy have refused to comment on the evictions - now you are setting out to make the helmsman of a British policy in Ireland that led to the deaths of over a million people some sort of a humanitarian hero - give us a break and answer the questions (some hope!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 05:03 AM

Christmas:

Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY - they didn't in the 1840s and they don't now - they never have. Government policy is formulated and set by the elected Government of the country, that policy having been set it is then handed to the Civil Service whose duty it is ensure that it is implemented as directed. Now IF you have evidence to correct that statement then please provide it. If you cannot do that, then please STFU about civil servants setting and dictating policy. Should you continue to insist that the Government's policy was set by Trevelyan during the period he spent at the Treasury then you are knowingly and deliberately telling a lie.

Guest mg That was basically what was done, once the problem got to the point that basic relief (i.e. providing food) was not coping. The logistical problems of getting food to the people were too great so the people came to where the food could be delivered. Trouble was that having got there they could not just simply stay there and be fed, their presence combined with the continuing influx of those seeking help would have rapidly overwhelmed the facilities in place, and that did often happen. A factor that can be seen even today in refugee camps and food distribution centres covering famine zones. So it a staged process had to be created:

1: Initial help - Sustain life
2: Work scheme - Provide money and food, to allow next stage in the process
3: Move - To work in town or city or emigrate

As a Government you do not go to the trouble and the expense of setting that sort of system up if you are trying to implement a deliberate policy of genocide - It just simply would not make any sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 05:07 AM

it was presented as a picture of the Irish people in Punch Magazine - still plenty of examples to be had.

Perhaps you could produce some.
I would produce as many caricatures of English poor as of Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM

Your bias, bigotry and hypocrisy are showing again Christmas.

Care to explain your stance that certain things said by Trevelyan must be viewed as being relevant and indicative while other things stated by the same man must be viewed as mere "mouthings"?

The Trevelyan Letter of October 1846 I have copied and pasted in full in my last post - how about you doing the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:18 AM

"Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY"
I've just said that - keep up - please stop trying to talk doewn to me - you look silly trying to do so from the hole you've managed to dig yourself into.
The British Government acted on implicitly on Trevelyan's advice, but in the end it was their responsibility for what happened - just said that as well
"Perhaps you could produce some."
You really have never read anything have you
There are plenty of examples of racist caricatures from Punch - they were noted for it - go look for them youurself, you moron.
In the meantime - this'll do as a summing up.
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

Crossposted
"Trevelyan must be viewed as being relevant...."
They are relevant because they were the policies carried out - as you refuse even to acknowledge thos policies - it seems pretty pointless to enter ainto a battle ow words with you - show those were not his/their policies and you might have something to say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:29 AM

There are plenty of examples of racist caricatures from Punch - they were noted for it - go look for them youurself, you moron.

This claim was made on the earlier famine thread, but could not be substantiated.
Can you produce an example or not?

Here is Punch's view of English poor.

http://johnsnow.matrix.msu.edu/images/fullbanner6.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM

"Read the Trevelyan letter, the previous long letter and the quote from his later autobiography"

You provide links to them and I will.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM

Piss off Keith - you have just been given a cutting from the Magazine itself - in case you missed it -
There are plenty - a book full of them entitled "The Same Old Story" – Paddy the Pig, Paddy, The Irish Frakenstein, Paddy the ungrateful child.
You rejected the ones were given to you because some of them were American
Do not be so stupid.
Some here depict the Irish as pigs and as sub-human animals, others as ungrateful children for wanting home rule, opposing conscription.
Take your ***** pick
Punch's attitude to the Irish was openly racist – one more time
As you are a declared racist, it is little wonder that what they had to say about the Irish is as "harmless" to you as was Britain's wartime pro-Hitler fascists (please ask me to link to that particularly unsavoury discussion again)
Are you not surprised that nobody takes you seriously
Now please get out of the way and let Terrytoon tell us why Britain's policy in Ireland was all a 'Republican myth'
Jim Carroll
http://punch.photoshelter.com/gallery/Ireland-Cartoons/G0000tcWkXyP4OHo/

http://www.irishhistorian.com/Punch/Punch_Famine.html

http://www.irishhistorian.com/Punch/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:09 AM

"You provide links to them and I will."
Sorry you'll have to buy the relevant books for the first and last
You have numerous quotes available to, including the one from your "definitive" history of the Famine 'The Great Hunger'
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"
Are you claiming that this was not Trevelyan's opinion and that it was all a fake - you've just been saying that it was only his opinion which didn't have anything to do with British policy - make up your mind boy.
In the end, it doesn't matter anyway - it was British policy that decimated the Irish - Trevelyan was merely a suitable tool to put that policy into operation.
Warehouse closures? Workhouse closures? Continued exports? Mass enforced emigration? murderous coffin-ships? laissez-faire policy? Half a century of mass Eviction? fabulously wealthy Empire well capable of assisting the Irish to survive?
Is this all a lie or just not worth consideration
That hole you are standing in is getting deeper - please keep digging.
Jimmy Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM

Sorry - forgot
The laissez-faire policy that allowed merchants to send famine relief ships back and forth up to four times while the Irish starved, in order to elevate prices - that came from Mrs Smith's "definitive" work as well
Yours in anticipation
Jimmy

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:34 AM

Changing a bit from a deliberate policy of genocide I see Christmas.