BS: Non-gender-related pronoun

Subject: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 09:22 PM

We will be having our first kid in June, and have chosen not to find out its sex. However, it really bugs me that there are no non-gender-related pronouns. We have to either pick a random sex (he, she, him, her) or else refer to our demon-seed as "it".

One would think that in these politically correct times, when we say chairperson instead of chairman, someone would have come up with something.

Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 09:37 PM

Well, when my 21-yr-old was in the womb, we called him "Bernice." We knew we wouldn't use a name like that once the child was born, but it really was nice to have a name to personalize him.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 09:41 PM

21 years!!! Now that's a long-term pregnancy!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: sophocleese
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 09:47 PM

We came up with a nonsense name, that I can't even remember now, when I was pregnant with our oldest. We also decided not to find out what gender either of our kids was going to be, we love them both.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 10:00 PM

Jumpin' Jesus Joe!!!! You called your boy Bernice for 21 years and you wonder why he wrote "Ode to the Fuck of Love" or whatever????? Get a grip!

Paul, since this is your first, I sincerely hope you and your wife have had a full life up to this point. You could go with "The Kid" or I might suggest "Plow" or "Mushroom" or "Double Fluke"...which are all types of anchors. Or since the kid's going to be born in June, check the Mudcat birthday list for some well known 'Catter born in June with a generic name and call the kid by that!

But CONGRATULATIONS anyway....Tris and Mike are the greatest things that ever happened in MY life outside of Karen who made it possible.

Our best to you both.....or actually, all three!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: WyoWoman
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 11:28 PM

Well, back in the '70s when we were getting all uppity about this gender thing, some of us tried using "tis" and "tir" as non-gender specific pronouns, but it didn't work because, well, it sounded stupid.

I, personally, think that we've called collective humanity his and he for long enough that we can swap to her and she for a while and nothing bad would happen. ;-]

One of the women I work with was preggers last year and we all got very attached to Fetus -- I even brought her a little sweater for Fetus -- and it was hard to adjust and start calling her son Simon once he made his appearance in our lives.

Congratulations, whatever you call tir. My life really got under way when I had my kids. I loved all their many changes and phases and weirdnesses (not every moment of the day, of course, but all added up together, it's been a wonderful time).

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 11:49 PM

Or that could be Phetus. My son, and later my nephew, were dubbed the Kid. I even had a psychedelic poster of a little kid in a beret with a slingshot in his pocket with a caption which said "The Kid" which we got after Colin was born. I never knew the gender ahead of time and I am glad that we didn't have that option.

You could always go with the s/he, pronounced Sheehee, but I 'spose someone might think you were giving it a family surname of Sheehey.

Little Critter? Tiny Tot? Lil' Sprout? Pronouns are tough for non-gender, but they always sound better in another language: German it is "das" (daws).

Congratulations! Anudder Little Mudder! Yippee!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Margo
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 12:27 AM

We didn't get very imaginative, just used "it" or the baby. Sometimes I'd say "he" or "she", what ever I felt like at the time. You won't have to worry about it for long.....

Margarita

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: alison
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 12:34 AM

I called my first on "sinbad"... reckonned he/she was on a fantastic adventure.. might as well have an adventurers name.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Escamillo
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 04:36 AM

How about "The one I told you"?
Congratulations, Andrés Magré (who always referred to the baby as "He", and we had three boys)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: AKS
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 05:42 AM

How about adapting a new native tongue from the fenno-ugrian family of languages (Hungarian, Finnish Estonian, Komi, Mari etc); no problems of that kind since we don't have grammatical gender, we only separate 'human' vs 'other' (some people include pet animals into 'human' though) in 3rd person singular.;-)

long may you live and have youth on your side AKS from Finland

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: WyoWoman
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 08:32 AM

Once again, the Joy of Mudcat. I had no idea that the fenno-ugrian family of languages doesn't designate gender. And would probably never have known that, if not for this posting.

Thanks, AKS

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: AKS
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 09:02 AM

Most welcome, WW! AKS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Roger the skiffler
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 09:07 AM

Is Fetus, Cletus' younger sibling?
I only asked!
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Bert
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 09:17 AM

Just call it Christie;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: John Hindsill
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 10:03 AM

Personally I like S/HE pronounced she or HER/M pronounced herm. They sound sort of feminine, but are economical in print and less clumsy than "he or she", etc.

However, if you already know the sex (please note I wrote sex rather than gender...when I grew up gender was only used as a grammatical device) of the eventual child, why not use that appropriate term? In any case, congratulations to your family.---John

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From:
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 10:08 AM

This seems to me an awfully silly thing to get worked up about, not that anyone here is. In most languages that I know anything about (French, German, Spanish), even articles (like our a, an, the) are gender-specific. In some cultures women even have a slightly different last name from the father or the husband, should they choose to have their husband's name. (in Gaelic, it's Trina ni Dhomnaill while her brother is og Dhomnaill or O'Dhomnaill, as tranliterated on record covers; in Slavic languages females add usually "-ova" to the end of the family name). And I've never seen anyone express that these usages were insensitive. It seems to me that in America, if we are truly thoughtful and unbiased, we are always worried that we are not sensitive enough. It reminds me of Garrison Keillor's Lutherans and my own childhood Baptists just searching for ways to be more intolerant (beyond what the law would allow in the countries they fled).

Chet

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Mbo
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 10:44 AM

That's Triona Ni Dhomnaill & Micheal O Domnaill signifying "Micheal, son of Domnaill" and "Triona, daughter of Domnaill" the surname gets the 'h' in the female version. My parents used to call me "Bug". And then there's always "Pooter" which Shelly on Northern Exposure used to call her baby before she was born.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 11:17 AM

He or she, him or her... it's in the English language already.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: bbc
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 11:25 AM

I felt the same way. We went w/ a variant of our last name & called what turned out to be him Carr-Carr.

best to all 3,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Mbo
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 02:08 PM

How interesting! I was know as Car-Car when I was a baby, too. My particular obsession with automobiles as a toddler spawned the name. But who really cares about the parturitional name! Just pick a sensible name when the baby IS born. "Soda" and "Seven" are now name choices, thanks to George Costanza! Congratulations on the little one!

--Mbo (a former unborn baby)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Marion
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 03:33 PM

It's strange ... in casual English it's quite normal to use "they" or "them" to designate one person of unknown gender, but that doesn't sound right in this case.

Compare "When you meet somebody for the first time, be sure to learn their name" to "When your baby is born, you'll know what their name should be."

To me the first sentence sounds normal and the second quite odd; it would seem more natural to use "its".

I wonder why that is.

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: bbc
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 05:23 PM

To Mbo--another Car-Car,

What can I say? Great minds...!

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Magpie
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 06:08 PM

In Norwegian "den" (pronounced just like that) is often used, and it means the one/that one.

My ex's cat was called It-she-he, as they had no idea wether it was a male or a female. I quite like the ring to it. Sound like some Native American something.

Magpie

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 07:49 PM

So fer chrissake Paul....What's the verdict? You've got everything from "The Kid" to "Fetus" to "Sinbad" to fenno whatsis language stuff and "Car-Car" (I've had kids and I'd go with Ca-Ca instead) to "Double Fluke" and to "Bernice"--which is totally unbelievable! C'mon boy, get it in gear and pick something so we can start the REAL naming contest!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 10:05 PM

this reminds me of what Rita..(Ferrara) & I called our son until we could decide on a name...since I am largely Scots, and she is half Italian....somehow "Angus Luigi" became the designation....scary, huh?...no he wasn't stuck with anything LIKE that!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: WyoWoman
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 12:09 AM

My mother wanted to call me Pansy Rue until cooler heads talked her out of it.

Imagine what my life would have been like if I'd been called Pansy Rue.

WW

(I never should have let Catspaw have this particular piece of information, I just know it...)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Brendy
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 12:25 AM

Just as a little aside to that:

My father used to talk about a man in our town who referred to his wife as "The childer's mammy"

I have heard unborn children in various conversations called "The expensive ride"; "The one that didn't get away".

Or, alternatively, "The Sprog"

Congratulations anyway

Breandán

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 09:39 AM

The Georgian language of the Caucasus Mountains does not distinguish between genders. "Es" means he, she, and it. "Mepe" means both king and queen.

While the language is non-sexist, the people who speak the language have an incredibly sexist culture, sproving that non-gendered language isn't a solution for sexism.

--Charlie Baum, who recognizes gender by distinguishing between chairpersons and chairperdaughters.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 09:50 AM

Geeziz Pansy....I don't even know where to begin!?!?!?! But I want to thank you for those many times in the future when this will be useful. Much obliged.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: sophocleese
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 10:38 AM

We once called a cat of doubtful gender Hecate, then if it turned out to be male we could have changed it to He-cat. Wyo-Pansy, I am very grateful for the fact that I was born in Canada, my mother swears that if I'd been born a month earlier in the States they would have named me Clementine.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: paddymac
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 01:11 PM

Mbo - thought the "O" prefix meant "grandson of". and "M', Mc or Mac" meant "son of". Thirty or so years ago Mother Jones mag (i think) proposed Co and Cos as singular and plural generic pronouns, but it never caught on. I find that when I seek to be deliberately gender-neutral, I usually use the word "their", but sometimes seem forced to take liberties with the singular/plural rules. Use of collective nouns, and singular/plural agreement with associated verbs, is an area of disagreement between conventional American and European usage in English; e.g.; "the government are" vs "the government is". All this sensitivity stuff can itself be rather insensitive, not to mention unnecessarily confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: JTT
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 06:56 PM

O really suggests "from the family", whereas Mac is specifically "son". The reason for the Dh is that feminine nouns are softened with an h which became a buailte or seimhiu, a dot over the consonant, for a couple of centuries there, then reverted back to the full letter.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Caitrin
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 07:05 PM

My parents referred to my little brother as "Pig Latin" until they knew his gender.

Marion... I would expect that it's because "Somebody" isn't quite so obviously singular as "the baby". "Somebody" is abstract enough that one can use "they" without thinking about it. "The baby", however, is more specific and clearly a singular thing. :) But that's just my guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 08:37 PM

Maybe the babby is really twins,in which case "they" and "them" solves the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 04:07 PM

You could always use Chip as in "Chip off the old Block" I once met a couple of gay women who were trying to adopt. They used the name "Bubba Sue" not knowing what the gender of the child would be. Do I need to add that they lived in Texas? Best of Luck

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: lamarca
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 05:03 PM

One couple I once knew humorously referred to their first baby (of unknown gender)as "Occupant"...

Congrats!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 07:02 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: bbc
Date: 11 Nov 99 - 03:53 PM

Reference way back to catspaw--I grew up in New England. Carr-Carr is *pronounced* Ca-Ca! :)

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: annamill
Date: 11 Nov 99 - 08:30 PM

(GOOD MEMORY) When my daughter, Amy, was in the womb, we called her "seed". When we walked into, well, anywhere, we would sing "Bringing in the seed, bringing in the seed, we shall come rejoicing, bring in the seed". It was sang to "Bringing in the sheathes". Just wanted you to know we knew the right words ;-)

Love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Nov 99 - 08:35 AM

I knew a couple who referred to their unborn child as "The Bulge".

I, on the other hand, was spoken of as "Peggy" until, upon my birth, my parents recognized their error.

"Them" is often used here in the southern states to indicate people of either sex when one is too lazy to actually say the name. "I'll prob'ly go hang at the mall with Larry and them". Or, "Are you going to invite Sharon and them to the party?". In the first instance, "them" might refer to any number of people of whatever gender who might just happen to be at the mall with Larry. In the second, it could mean Sharon's significant other even if that name is well known to all concerned. -- Another oddity of our language.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 12 Nov 99 - 08:50 AM

I always felt that when I was pregnant it was a bit like invasion of the body snatchers.... but I used to call the bumb "Bob" I had two boys and three girls so it did not affect their gender. kind regards Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: WyoWoman
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 02:59 PM

Having grown up in the South, where every boy's middle name is Bob and every girl's middle name (including my sister) is Sue, I often call people Theirname-Bob. For a while, my children and I were calling each other "Ariel Bob," "Austin Bob" and "Mommy Bob." Now I have a dog Bob, whom I call Bob Bob and a big dog who is Fresa Bob.

I think Bubba Sue is simply wonderful and I will steal that -- although I'm not certain presently how, precisely, I might use it.

WyoBob

Pansy Bob Pansy Rue Bob Rue Bob Pie I'm quitting now....

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Caitrin
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 04:19 PM

"They" and "them" are, sadly, often assumed to be correct usage when referring to one person when one doesn't want to indicate gender. I edit papers for a lot of my friends, and pronoun-antecedent agreement errors are some of the most common. In our politically correct world, people don't want to use "him", so they use "them."

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 04:25 PM

LO< Pansy-Wyo-Rue (my youngest daughter's nickname; Rue for Jerusha)!

I never realised how southern my sisters' names and mine could be until a friend from Miz-si-pa, as anyone who lives there knows it is pronounced, pointed it out, with a little creative shortening: Katey Lou, Betty Lee, Pris Ann, and Becka Jo! Oh, lawdee!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From:
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 05:31 PM

My family has always been extremely southern in a different way...family names get worked in as middle names, i.e. Grace Gladden, Kathryn McCurry, Charles Edwards, etc. (Although my mother is Wanda Sue)Then Grandma Grace threw everything off by marrying the son of a Slovak immigrant from Ohio. The Juhasz side of the family is full of Michaels and Marys. (Byzantine Catholic, ya know. Eveyone's got to be named for his father.)

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 12:03 PM

Our one and only child, Christopher Thieme, (after A.E. Milne's character) signs his name ChrisT. Whatever you do, the kid'll change it. Go with the flow.

The next one we're gonna call Eore !

How about a word like "cowbull" as a non-gender thing? But someone might think he/she/it was a city in Afghanistan.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Non-gender-related pronoun
From: Dani
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 01:23 PM

As one who ended up with an almost genderless name, being a daughter named for a grandfather (also, my father just loved the name), I recommend you listen to your heart. Maybe nothing but 'it' will come to you until you look into it's beautiful eyes. So be it.

BTW, my guy's name is Tony, and we often are mistaken for "Danny and Toni".

What can you do?