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Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou

GUEST,Gerry 30 May 13 - 10:06 PM
Jack Campin 31 May 13 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Gerry 31 May 13 - 08:32 AM
Monique 31 May 13 - 08:46 AM
George Papavgeris 31 May 13 - 09:01 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 May 13 - 12:38 PM
Jack Campin 31 May 13 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Gerry 31 May 13 - 08:37 PM
Monique 01 Jun 13 - 01:18 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 13 - 01:01 PM
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Subject: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 30 May 13 - 10:06 PM

The Turkish song Canakkale and the Greek song Katinaki Mou go to the same tune.

Canakkale has been discussed on Mudcat. It's about the First World War battle known in Australia as Gallipoli. There are several recordings available on YouTube.

I haven't found any discussion of Katinaki Mou on Mudcat, or elsewhere. There are several recordings available on YouTube.

I'd like to know how these two songs came to have the same tune.

What follows is speculation on my part, not backed by any evidence; I'm hoping someone will be able to confirm it, or refute it, with documentation.

I speculate the Katinaki Mou is the older song, and that its lyrics have nothing to do with that or any other war. I speculate that the (anonymous?) lyricist of Canakkale chose to put his words to the already-existing tune of Katinaki Mou.

This by the way is not intended as criticism of the lyricist of Canakkale. It is a terrific song, and there's nothing wrong with putting your words to someone else's music. I just like to know where things come from.

Does anyone here have any solid knowledge about Katinaki Mou, or about the relation between the two songs?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 May 13 - 06:55 AM

Do you have the words (and translation) for "Katinaki Mou"? I hadn't heard of it before. (I looked "Canakkale" up in Hamdi Tanses's "Oykuleriyle Halk Turkuleri" - he has an account of the battle but nothing about the origins of the song, though I suppose he'd know if anybody does).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:32 AM

Sorry, Jack, lyrics to Katinaki Mou (preferably in translation) is one of the things I hope someone else will be able to contribute to this thread.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: Monique
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:46 AM

Jim, is that this one? (btw, the video has been removed)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:01 AM

Katinaki mou gia sena me skotosane
mesa ston teke tou Foti me xaplosane.

Me varesane kale mou re me babesia
ach, tris machairies mou dosan mesa stin kardia.

Etsi hathika gia sena Katinaki mou
Ap to davatzi pou iches vre manaki mou.
==========================================
My Katinaki (Katie) it's for you they killed me
they laid me out in Fotis' dive.

They hit me with a cowardly ambush
ach, three stabs they gave me to the heart

That's how I was wasted for you, my Katinaki
by your pimp, my sweet doll

First recorded by Rosa Eschenazy, 1932.
Turkish and Greek tunes were habitually interchanged with new lyrics. It still happens today to a lesser degree. However I think that in this case the Turkish "Çanakkale" came first to commemorate the events at Gallipoli; then some 10-15 years later the tune was borrowed for a typical Greek refugee (from Asia Minor) song, dealing with the criminal underworld as so many of their songs did.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:38 PM

Listening to Nana Mouskouri sing (youtube) the song, Monique and George P. have the song asked for by Gerry.

Whether the tune is Turkish or Greek reminds me of the confusion about Miserlu- Sephardic, Greek, Ottoman ....

The Mediterranean is a small sea, a good tune can travel with sailors, occupiers and settlers.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:58 PM

The Greek is a close parallel to "Canakkale", as Ruhi Su sings it: a very short monologue in three verses by a dead man describing how he died. Su's song is like no other song from a war that I know of - stark, elliptical modernism. But the version Hamdi Tanses prints is more "normal" - 8 verses (one repeated) giving more detail about the man's circumstances (though still not to the point of Bogleorrhoea).

So, I'd been thinking the three-verse one was Su's creation, paring the longer traditional version down to the bare minimum. But whichever way the adaptation went, the parallel suggests that minimal one existed between 1915 and 1932, which is long before Su started his folk singing career.

And three two-line verses is pretty short for a murder ballad, too. Are there any others like that in Greek?

At any rate, whichever way the adapting went, the writer of the later song knew what the earlier one meant.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:37 PM

Many thanks to all, especially to George. Q, I couldn't find a Mouskouri recording of Katinaki Mou on YouTube --- do you have the URL? Monique, I don't know who Jim is, but, yes, that looks like the right song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: Monique
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:18 AM

Sorry Gerry, senior's moment!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Canakkale / Katinaki Mou
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:01 PM

Katinaki Moy- sorry, another senior day; no Mouskouri but Gia Sena and Marika Papagkika, both on youtube:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3_F_LaQCDA for Marika P.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYrlvu9I1YY for Gia Sena


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