Throwing away the crutch....

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:13 PM

You cannott put any feeling or presentation straight reading of a lever arch file, ipad epad dpod or whatever.

If you need a crutch, safety net whatever to get a song bedded in no problem, Dont forget however that you do get to depend on crutches and the longer you leave it the harder it is.
But what grinds me gears is the constant use of them (see Duncan Macfarland)

Also this constant whining like " oh it is ok for you, I really cannot learn stuff"


Arrant crap, if you cant learn the song, find another pastime, but dont inflict your laziness on the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 10:31 AM

@ Will Fly:

Generally I'd agree with you as far as dance bands are concerned. The main thing is that the band has it's tunes reasonably off pat, is reasonably familiar with the dances, knows how to give that subtle emphasis at the start of each new 16bar figure (english dances) and is flexible enough to react if, despite everything, chaos develops. The problems I referred to earlier come when the music stands become barricades and stop the interaction between musicians and dancers developing. I've been there, I've tried to dance it......

Don

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Marje
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 08:10 AM

For what it's worth, a community choir (Guest TF, above)won't necessarily use wordsheets. I was in a community choir for a couple of years and we performed everything from memory. We almost never had written music for the tune parts, as everything was taught by ear, and this meant that the words were pretty much learned aurally along with the tune. At some point we were given a written wordsheet, and were required to learn this by heart, even though much of the material was in languages other than English.

And dyknowwhat, everyone managed it somehow. No one claimed exemption on grounds of age, illness, inexperience, laziness or general slow-wittedness. Everyone just got on and learned the words. The performance benefited enormously from this, as we could make eye contact not only with the audience but also with each other as we sang our different parts, usually standing in a semicircle. it's a much more rewarding experience than standing in straight rows singing from a book.

Marje

marje

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 07:34 AM

Les - I was referring to another Les who writes and reads his own poems - not yourself methinks. Sorry for any confusion.
I admire anyone who starts anything going in the way of live music.
Do your beginners find they can pick up tunes by ear at some point and then start experimenting, or does it inhibit them from this?
I've heard a singing group start with a note and then told to find other notes that harmonise, before being given the words and music for the main part of the practise.
I've also been in a workshop where we were just given the chords and told to make tunes round them - mostly on the arpegios - before the workshop leader put the actual tune above what we were doing. That might make a very interesting variation with your group.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 07:27 AM

@ Jack Campin

Glad you posted on that one Jack because I am still open mouthed! No really. I sat at the laptop wondering what the strange noise was, and it was me dribbling on the keyboard.

If I was thirty years younger I might have said OMG!

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 07:26 AM

Les, I think there's a subtle difference between playing music specifically for dancing and playing music as a direct performance to a listening audience.

For the dance, exactness and clarity are important - all playing together, keeping a steady tempo, playing the right notes at the right time. And the "audience" aren't watching the musicians - they're interacting with each other, and the music is the glue that holds that interaction together. For a band to use dots is not a problem, and has been done - as you rightly say, for hundreds of years.

But projecting and performing, face to face, with an audience that is silently concentrating on you requires, IMO, a rather different set of skills - and the barrier of the permanent music stand and the permanent folder of unlearned songs is a barrier indeed for me.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 06:27 AM

GUEST, what on earth was the point of writing all that if you aren't going to tell us who you are and where the singaround you want to make people unwelcome at is?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 06:16 AM

"It's all about developing a personal relationship to the songs you're singing".   This is how I approach the songs I sing. "whilst he's singing … he's in there in the story" Absolutely! How could I get into the story, how could I lose myself in the song/story if I didn't know it, if I had to read it? (How could I sing with my eyes closed?) I also enjoy listening to people who really mean what they sing; not ones who think that they are more important than the song they're singing, that their need to perform is more important than the song itself.   For me the song comes first and the performance (and more accurately the performer) second.

Luckily, this is the "folk world". At my regular (fortnightly) singaround nearly every singer seems to feel the same. It was actually set up by a few singers who had had enough of the other type of singaround. Occasionally a newcomer or visitor may arrive with their words or song book. Perhaps they get a second song, probably they don't. Some continue to come along and adapt to the "norms", some stop coming. OK, it's discriminatory but it works and we have a brilliant singaround that suits all the regulars (and it's one of the best attended singarounds I've been to.). There is one person, recently recovering from a stroke who always gets a song and always has the words in front of them but they've "earned" the special dispensation from the past. The reason I'm not posting by name is so that there's no way of identifying, and possibly embarrassing, that person.

BUT, I also occasionally go to other clubs and singarounds where there are singers who have their bits of paper and even two who bring their own music stands. I don't really enjoy their performances, not because of the aids but because their performance is not as good, perhaps because they need the aid in the first place. The hiatuses (hiati???) where they lose their place and have to look down etc. and even the initial fumbling for the right page all detract from the song. (True in the "no paper" club someone will occasionally forget their words but it seems to happen much less frequently with these singers.)   Still the "performance" clubs work for their regulars and I don't have to go there (usually I don't) so I say live and let live. Thanks to the variety of the "folk world" at least I can go somewhere where my preferences are catered for.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:44 AM

Hi Flora, we use the dots in The Beech tunes sessins because we started as a Beginners Group.

As I have tried to explain above, tune players - playing for dancing and for fun have used books of dots - some handwritten many printed since at least Playford.We continue that tradition.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:16 AM

I find some of the poorest acts in a sing around are those who read the poems of others. There is always that feeling that if they learnt them the presentation would be so much better. I know Les (and the Coppers) use books - but it always feels like part of the act.
However, I have to admit to using a booklet when it comes to Xmas songs and carols - I only play them one month a year. I never remember verse three and beyond, and my copy has useful bits of notation like SN; start note.   
FloraG

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:23 AM

There was a time when I could reliably remember the lyrics and chords to hundreds of songs. Unfortunately that is no longer the case. Therefore I use a music stand at gigs, with printed lyric sheets on it.

I'm sorry if anyone thinks that's cheating (not all that sorry, actually), but it takes nothing away from me or the band being rehearsed. It's just insurance. And I do put them in order beforehand.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 06:07 PM

Will Fly wrote
"she readily admitted that she felt unhappy with using a book and hoped to dispense with it when the three of them had been together longer."

From a phone call that I took today, I believe that I know the trio that you are talking about, Mike, and 'young' here is a relative term. One is a mum with two kids and they have been performing together for longer than you might think.... long enough to have learned the words and a bit about communicating with the audience.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:26 PM

AND as far as I can read "the oral tradition" has only been mentioned once in more than 70 posts. That's what it's about. Folk music is not some self help social work project. If people insist that they must have words and music in front of them maybe they should join a community choir. There are plenty of them about nowadays. My memory is fading but I'm fighting it all the way.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:17 PM

Just a random thought. Maybe The Coppers have a lot to answer for.
Do the new generations of the family rely on "the book" more than their parents?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:01 PM

Dyslexic musicians among us number about 1 in 10 and would find the sheet music more of a distraction than a crutch. Still I would welcome chord change reminders as a life long novice.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 03:37 PM

Lavengro, The worth of knowing your song has oft been discussed so my post was to add an angle. There are those like me who came into folk music back when everyone who sang knew their song. I was happy with that and so it seemed at the time was everyone else. I wondered from whence came the change. Sorry if I was too dramatic.

I'm disappointed to learn that some renowned performers use cribs. I did know that some mime to recordings.
I'm sure that when Folk Clubs come to this there will be those who defend it.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 02:49 PM

none of which alters the fact that the EFDSS encouraged musicians to play from the dots , percussionists were exempted, perhaps the EFDSS did not consider percussionists[ particularly goat bashers] musicians

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:25 PM

Fair enough Guest:

"The EFDSS may have gone around arresting songs and tunes and locking them up in CSH
Interesing viewpoint and a total lack of historical knowledge. It was the Folk Song Society which "arrested" the songs. All EFDSS did was put then in a nice library near Euston Station where they were accessible."

Maybe a bit over the top - just re-reading The Imagined Village again - amazing book

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 07:51 AM

JHW

"Why Did We Let Them Get Away With It?!"

Just wondering JHW. Who is the "We" you are referring to? And come to think of it who is "Them", and how were/are the "We" going to police/enforce their wishes on the "Them"? T-shirts with broken music stand logos? Placards with "I won't stand for it!!" Turning of backs to performers using stands? A special shelf with warm beer for anyone using prompt cards? History shows that manufacturing false "us and them" divides, tends not to be very useful? Isn't one of the blessings of music that it is a unifying thing?

I have seen plenty of long established musicians using teleprompters (Springsteen, U2, Elton John etc.) and closer to home I have seen "crib sheets" used on more than one occasion by some well known Folk Musicians, and on the likes of The Transatlantic Sessions etc. Personally I don't feel it stilted the performances in doing so, and I would rather have those performances "out there" rather than not performed for the sake of a sheet of A4.

I personally find it more than a little irritating when the usual suspects start a rambling, disjointed introduction to a tune/song that is sometimes longer than the piece itself. But I don't sit there making my displeasure known, or suggest to the committee a system of TUC style green, amber, red lights.

Thankfully it really does "take all sorts"; that's why I like folk clubs. A random gathering of misfits with a common interest!

ATB, Lavengro

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 05:04 AM

The EFDSS may have gone around arresting songs and tunes and locking them up in CSH
Interesing viewpoint and a total lack of historical knowledge. It was the Folk Song Society which "arrested" the songs. All EFDSS did was put then in a nice library near Euston Station where they were accessible.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:16 AM

Hey GSS, trust you are well.

"EFDSS started it all with dance musicians playing from the dots and using music stands "

The EFDSS may have gone around arresting songs and tunes and locking them up in CSH but the use of dots for playing dance tunes goes back before Playford and has always been a feature of playing dance tunes.

Isn't that wht some many written collections of old dance tunes have survived?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:05 AM

Just a thought - clubs could charge 20p donation to their charity for use of a music stand. Not enough to put people off if they really need it but a message about preference.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:57 AM

It's all about developing a personal relationship to the songs you're singing, the tunes you're playing or a better understanding of the dances you're playing for. Martin Carthy has commented somewhere to the effect that, whilst he's singing there's a film of the ballad/story running in his head and he's in there in the story. I don't have a film but I also don't sing a song in public as soon as I've learnt it. A song needs a few months to 'bed-in' or mature and become a part of you before you let it loose on an unsuspecting audience.

I sing at a monthly acoustic music club in Germany where most people have crib-sheets of one sort or another with them. On the one hand this irritates me, but on the other I think OK, they're trying to sing in english, a foreign language for them and perhaps they don't trust their linguistic abilities that much. That being said, I also suspect that some of them only decide what they're going to sing a day or so beforehand and they've got their work cut out dealing with the guitar accompaniment (they mostly sing pop/rock songs). What I do notice is that, for me,(and this is irrespective of the language being sung) because they've not really got into what they're singing it all tends to comes over as 'flat' or lifeless.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:30 AM

"That's something I can't understand though.. when people can't even remember their own songs and tunes! It seems so odd when they have actually written the things themselves."
And if it's a new song, there's no-one out there who can help you if you forget!

But it's not about whether you've written them yourself or not: it's about how your own personal memory works. I do not have a photographic memory and have always struggled to learn WORDS. (Not just since I got older!) I "know" loads of songs when someone else is leading them, but not nearly so good at leading a song myself, tho' gradually over the years I have increased the number of songs I CAN sing without words in front of me: but there are HUNDREDS more that I like to sing, have sung, know how they go, yet would still need the words with me, if only to glance at.
In my working life, I had to learn so many facts and figures that my poor little brain won't take any more!
I have more of an "audiographic memory" in that I remember tunes much better: it maybe doesn't always manifest itself as being able to play you a tune, tho' I could usually sing the melody to you. (But with my efforts at doing more "ear playing", even this is getting better!)

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:11 AM

And one of those groups (Ranchers?) commented that their playing changed when they decided to stand to play, and did away with the music stands and dots.

Flora mentioned dance cards. I never use them for 'general public' ceilidhs, though if I've worked out a programme in advance I might print out a list with a few reminder of dances I use less often. And glance at the music stand when I go back to the stage to talk to the band.
But a dance club is different. I have a much bigger list of dances to work from. So I take cards. But I will have practised enough at home with cds to pretty much not use them use the music is playing. Having reminded myself in the walk-through (mustn't get the walk-through wrong or the wrong patterns are firmly imprinted in dancers brain - they take no notice of corrections and apologies).
On one occassion I suddenly noticed that there was a multiple of 5 couples, (not often the case), found the tape, walked and called Levi Jackson, and after the dance noticed that the 'talisman' card in my hand was for some other dance (the one that was on my list).

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 09:14 AM

EFDSS started it all with dance musicians playing from the dots and using music stands

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 08:47 AM

There's a big difference, IMO, between informal sessions and more formal performances. I run a free-for-all session where people do occasionally bring a song-sheet, and I've no problem with that. We also have lots of laughter and fun.

But last night, for example, at a local acoustic performance, there were was a young, 3-girl group singing. Beautiful voices, nice choice of songs - absolutely no communication or eye contact with the audience as their eyes were glued to a communal book in front of them. I mentioned this (I hope) fairly gently to one of them afterwards, and she readily admitted that she felt unhappy with using a book and hoped to dispense with it when the three of them had been together longer.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: JHW
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 08:39 AM

Don Firth thanks for confirmation that knowing your song was once taken for granted.
I went once to a house folk 'club' in Portland. There was a stage but only the MC used it. Everyone else sat round in concentric crescents, each with a ring file. 'OK turn to page 43 and we'll do Puff the Magic Dragon' And so they did, all together, many with guitars. They were aghast at my girlfriend's suggestion that they might like to hear a couple of songs from John just over from England, sung ON MY OWN ...

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 07:04 AM

The SNP propaganda bit of Steve's song is all in the last three verses. I'd leave those out. I also came up with a different refrain:

with a you kay eye pee and an eff oh ay dee

- at any rate, better to find a specific one that fits the verses.

The slow session last night had a rather odd mix. Half the people in the room knew all the tunes and never looked at any music. The other half used sheets for everything. No middle ground of people who could play some tunes from memory but not all. People in that category do exist, but I seem to see less of them than I used to.

The worst regular session player I know is one who doesn't read music at all, and learns a lot of her material off Phil Cunningham CDs. Playing along with the Phil in her head makes for even greater rigidity than following a score.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: buddhuu
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:12 AM

At The Plough session we have a number of standard ensemble numbers that have just kind of evolved as such over the years as we've all gradually began to contribute bits and pieces to each other's songs. There is certainly no set list.

As for song books, I'm totally guilty. I'm a crap singer and a crap player. awareness of this saps confidence to the extent that I need the cheat sheets in case my mind goes blank. I try to play without looking at them, but disaster invariably ensues.

If people want to ban books at their sessions then that's fine; I won't inconvenience them with my presence. At my session, however, things are TOTALLY informal. Apart from a couple of rules that are there for the sole purpose of provoking people into breaking them, people can do whatever makes them happy and allows them to have fun. Ours is not a "performance" session, it is an inclusive, fun, having-the-craic-with-mates session. If people chose to sing without books then we even tolerate that.

As for iPads etc, I see no real difference between reading from paper and reading from a screen. If anything, the screen means less shuffling of paper and dropping of loose pages. It's not for me, but good luck to anyone who is not too anal to actually apply technology for something useful.

Enjoy your rules, dislikes, proscriptions and set lists. We'll just carry on having fun and spending more time singing and roaring with laughter than tutting at other people's insecurities. It may not be an approach that works for everyone, but it's kept my session going every week for the last 8 years or so.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:44 AM

Not a song I'd go out of my way to learn, quite frankly.

I've no time for Nigel Farage but I can't be bothered with SNP propoganda either.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:39 AM

I was at the first performance of this, the day after the event it commemorated:

Steve Byrne's song on Nigel Farage's visit to Edinburgh

and Steve used a sheet when singing it. I would too.

Contrariwise I have been encountering a specific problem with slow sessions where people use sheet music. They often use books (like Nigel Gatherer's) with three or four tunes to a two-page spread. And usually those tunes do not belong together. But the peple who use the books regard the typographical medley in front of them as an unshakeable musical reality. The result is you get idiocies like two marches followed by a waltz, or (my pet hate) sets that randomly switch between tunes that fit in the pipe scale and ones that don't, which buggers up instrument selection for multi-instrumentalists and shuts smallpipers out entirely. Do these people select their friends from names occurring on the same page in the phone book?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 01:15 AM

When I first started singing at "hoots" in the 1950s, which, at the time were song fests generally held in someone's living room and amounted to informal song swapping sessions, I sang only from memory. Songs I knew by heart. Everyone else did the same. NO ONE used cheat sheets or books.

It was just the way it was done.

That was good training for when I started getting hired to sing. I knew the songs in my repertoire, and could sing them from memory. And put my attention on putting the song across.

And I was not unique in this. There was never a music stand or cheat sheet in sight.

Seattle Song Circle got started in the late 1970s and, at first, that's the way it was done. We sang in rotation, going around the circle. Singing from memory.

Then, sometime in the 80s, a few new people started showing up with notebooks or stacks of song books. I remember sitting there one evening grinding my teeth with everyone else while one guy pulled out a song book, searched for the song he wanted, announced, "I haven't learned the words or tune yet, but. . . ." And then proceeded to set the whole room (about thirty people) writhing with his attempt to sing a Jacques Brel song (at a folk song circle), complete with backing up and restarting a couple of times.

OY!!

Actually, that was the last time Barbara and I went to Song Circle. This sort of thing had been happening for some time.

Then I heard that Rise Up Singing appeared at the Song Circle gatherings. More and more people began singing together out of the book, sort of like a hymn sing. By then, many of those who had started Song Circle in the first place had long since dropped out.

I have never used song sheets when singing in coffee houses, in clubs, in concerts, and I didn't use song sheets, cue cards, or teleprompter when I did television.

When I was taking singing lessons from George Hotchkiss Street many years ago, he had me bring my guitar to the lessons, then after we had worked on vocal exercises and technique, he would ask me to sing whatever song I was working on at the moment. He would often stop me and ask, "Now, what does that line mean?" He knew, of course, but he wanted to make sure that I knew, and wasn't just singing the song by rote.

And knowing what the song was all about made it possible for me to put something into it that made it come alive.

You simply can't do that if you don't KNOW the song and are reading it off a sheet of paper.

Keep a book of song sheets, yes. And use them to refresh your memory if you haven't sung the song for awhile. But do this at home in your own time.

And then leave the damned thing at home!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 11:18 PM

banjoman has it right:    "I would rather see someone make the effort and the odd mistake" than rely on written words in front of them.

I'm with him all the way.    I have unlimited respect for someone who makes the effort without crib sheets--or especially books.   Reading off a crib sheet, or worse, out of a book--not so much respect, to put it mildly.    So it may not be perfect.   The fact he or she has tried means they have actually put some work into preparation--they care enough to do that.   Any performer, even of one song, owes that to the audience.

I don't even mind if the performer has the sheet in hand while singing. But use it as a talisman---don't look at it.

Yes, there may be songs and performances which are worth hearing even out of a book (and only a book compiled by the singer)--particularly long humorous songs    But this situation is the exception that proves the rule.

It's rare, to say the least.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 06:50 PM

It does get worse. First the words, then music stands, now they even have lights on the blessed things.
When I started going to Folk Clubs (late 60s) everyone KNEW their songs so when I decided to have a go I LEARNED the song
so I ponder here
When Did It Start?
Who Started It? or indeed
Why Did We Let Them Get Away With It?!

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Marje
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 12:16 PM

What puzzles me is those singers (and I've seen it more than once) who appear to read every word, including the chorus, every time, from their sheet or file. I even knew someone who, after the verses had progressed to Page Two, kept on turning back to Page One to read the chorus. If the audience can manage to join in with the chorus without a crib-sheet, it's not unreasonable of them to expect the performer to do the same.

Marje

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 11:49 AM

Simple rule for me.... IF I can close my eyes and have no clue you are using a helper sheet, fine! If you cannot get thru the song in tune and in time, even with the sheet, I cannot understand how you think others will enjoy listening.
*I* occasionally glance at verse #4 of some song I haven't done in a long time...just to be sure I won't mess it up.

(The ultimate story... we had a blind singer at some of our local singarounds a few years ago. She knew a few songs ok, but she used Braille cheat-sheets for many.... which she kept in a wide bag in her lap. Instead of just pulling one out and using it openly, she would thrust her hands into the bag and 'read' the sheet in a fumbling manner, as if she wanted to pretend we didn't know what was going on. When her fingers reached the end on a line, or worse, when she had to go to sheet # 2 to finish the song, it got rather 'interesting'. She did bring a lot of nice songs, and sang decently when it all worked....but...."

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 10:27 AM

Good luck, TB.

That's something I can't understand though.. when people can't even remember their own songs and tunes! It seems so odd when they have actually written the things themselves.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 10:13 AM

Oh dear, I really must go and learn the words of my song for Wednesday's competition: I'm nearly there but it's got SIX verses, and I've already said I can't mange more than FIVE!
I found to my cost in a previous year that the lights are so dazzling that you cant really see your words even if they are in BIG PRINT!
(And I hear do of one person who had all his chords written out in red: but overhead red spotlight reduced that to nothingness!)

As for using sheet music for gigs: I do sometimes, but if there's a definite set list, I usually create a new folder for that gig with all the music for that gig in correct order, so all I have to do is turn the page. Or if it's a gig where the set list is a bit flexible, as sometimes happens with ceilidhs, the music is all in alphabetical order so can be found easily. Preparation pays off!

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 10:05 AM

Regarding the last two or three posts, Rich has previously posted on this thread and, to an extent, I can understand his position(I replied fairly soon afterwards).

However, my stance(with or without a crutch ;-)...... )is that we are surely better off without such aides when there is no need for them and they are actually more likely to hinder rather than help your progress.

There are, of course, some exceptions to the rule as there always is.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 09:57 AM

We have a regular singer at our club who always uses sheets and has done as long as I have know her. But…last month she sat there and calmly announced that she'd left the sheet at home but was going to attempt the ballad that she'd been working on. What a shock! We suddenly heard a voice we'd never heard before, strong and secure without the faltering to which we had become accustomed. A revelation to anyone who thinks that singing from a sheet makes you safer. It also cramps your vocal apparatus and limits your range. I hope our friend persists in her singing without the 'crutch'. She's a good singer who doesn't limp without it!

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: John P
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 09:53 AM

RichM, I've been trying without success to figure out what you meant by your last post. Can you elucidate? Who are the intolerant, prissy, purist dilettantes you're talking about -- people who think a performer should be competent and prepared, or those who don't think it's important? I can make your words make equal sense (or nonsense, really) if applied either way.

In any case, why do you think it's necessary to use such offensive language?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 09:50 AM

"Throwing away the crutch"

Is this just about dispensing with music stands & paper?
Or should it extend to doing away with certain guitars, without which the performer would be unable to stay in key for more than half a verse?

Just askin' :)

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 08:38 AM

There's a duo in the US that uses a songbook and stand, but make it part of their performance. It's their original songs, which are very humorous. You pretty much don't notice they are using it after awhile. But they also don't fumble around looking for things. The act is Peter and Lou Berryman, and they are well regarded.
   I also noticed that Richard Thompson used a song sheets for his 1000 years of Popular Music program. Again the music was not in the general sight line of the audience and there was no dithering between songs to find the next one.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: RichM
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 08:22 AM

Intolerant dilettantes plenty, it's a common failing of the prissy folk community. This is why I don't often participate in "folk" events where purists abound.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 07:26 AM

Jack,

I think that the music and dances themselves are well planned in these circumstances... i.e. on the SCD scene.

While I'm sure they'll pay attention to what the dancers are doing, I'd imagine that they'd be a little less flexible than ordinary ceilidh bands.

The dances will last for a set time(as will the tunes)and the dancers will usually be expected to know what they are doing too.
Unlike your average SMG hoolie   :-)

I'd imagine that the music is more of a "plan" for the programme as opposed to the musicians actually needing to read the dots as such.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 07:12 AM

A lot of Scottish dance bands use music stands like this:

Jim Johnstone and Iain MacPhail

Easy to see over it to the dancers.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 04:37 AM

Living in Germany I've noticed that it is fairly common to 'hide' behind the music stand. The negative side of this becomes very quickly apparent when people are playing for dances. My experience playing with a ceilidh band back in the UK in the late '60s/early '70s showed me that at least one person in the band, preferably the leader, has to keep an eye on events on the dance floor, particularly so given the very mixed abilities of the average dancers. Even the best caller can't be everywhere at once.

In Germany however, at a 'everyone mucks in' festival I used to go to, the musicians tended to hide behind their music stands and play on oblivious of what was happening on the dance floor. It was also very quickly clear to me that they had very little or no relationship to the dances they were playing - they were simply reeling off the dots and leaving the dancers to fend for themselves, not all of whom could relate the various sequences of the dance to the music. The result of this was often total chaos on the dance floor. Admittedly, the somewhat eclectic choice of dances- english, french, balkan, swedish, afghan etc. didn't help. I did persuade the band leader to actually learn some of the commener tunes she used and put her music stand to one side. She did this and reported that the difference was like night and day- she could now connect the music to what the dancers were doing, put the emphasis in all the right places and take steps to counter any signs of chaos on the dance floor. Not only that, she was enjoying the music much more.

The complete opposite of this was a family group who insisted on arranging everything as if they were giving a chamber music recital rather than playing for dancing. They ensconced themselves behind their music stands and, like the musos on the Titanic, played blithely on whilst the dancers gradually gave up and left the dance floor or stood around trying to work out where they were in terms of the music and the dance sequence. Quite simply, they played so delicatly that the necessary lead that the music should give the dancers just wasn't there or, more probably, didn't make it over the barricade of their music stands.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 03:57 AM

You wait, Les - it'll be wi-man-fi soon...

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 03:42 AM

I think the same things apply to calling dances. Best to have them in your head - especially if you are playing at the same time. However, I am happy to admit - I've never called this before - usually at a dance club - and please could you help me make sure it works Ok - and have a crib sheet for that occasion.
I also find a large written list of dances helpful - you are never quite sure what shape the hall is or how experienced the dancers - so you can pick suitable dances or alter the ones you know.
FloraG