Throwing away the crutch....

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 11:18 PM

banjoman has it right:    "I would rather see someone make the effort and the odd mistake" than rely on written words in front of them.

I'm with him all the way.    I have unlimited respect for someone who makes the effort without crib sheets--or especially books.   Reading off a crib sheet, or worse, out of a book--not so much respect, to put it mildly.    So it may not be perfect.   The fact he or she has tried means they have actually put some work into preparation--they care enough to do that.   Any performer, even of one song, owes that to the audience.

I don't even mind if the performer has the sheet in hand while singing. But use it as a talisman---don't look at it.

Yes, there may be songs and performances which are worth hearing even out of a book (and only a book compiled by the singer)--particularly long humorous songs    But this situation is the exception that proves the rule.

It's rare, to say the least.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 01:15 AM

When I first started singing at "hoots" in the 1950s, which, at the time were song fests generally held in someone's living room and amounted to informal song swapping sessions, I sang only from memory. Songs I knew by heart. Everyone else did the same. NO ONE used cheat sheets or books.

It was just the way it was done.

That was good training for when I started getting hired to sing. I knew the songs in my repertoire, and could sing them from memory. And put my attention on putting the song across.

And I was not unique in this. There was never a music stand or cheat sheet in sight.

Seattle Song Circle got started in the late 1970s and, at first, that's the way it was done. We sang in rotation, going around the circle. Singing from memory.

Then, sometime in the 80s, a few new people started showing up with notebooks or stacks of song books. I remember sitting there one evening grinding my teeth with everyone else while one guy pulled out a song book, searched for the song he wanted, announced, "I haven't learned the words or tune yet, but. . . ." And then proceeded to set the whole room (about thirty people) writhing with his attempt to sing a Jacques Brel song (at a folk song circle), complete with backing up and restarting a couple of times.

OY!!

Actually, that was the last time Barbara and I went to Song Circle. This sort of thing had been happening for some time.

Then I heard that Rise Up Singing appeared at the Song Circle gatherings. More and more people began singing together out of the book, sort of like a hymn sing. By then, many of those who had started Song Circle in the first place had long since dropped out.

I have never used song sheets when singing in coffee houses, in clubs, in concerts, and I didn't use song sheets, cue cards, or teleprompter when I did television.

When I was taking singing lessons from George Hotchkiss Street many years ago, he had me bring my guitar to the lessons, then after we had worked on vocal exercises and technique, he would ask me to sing whatever song I was working on at the moment. He would often stop me and ask, "Now, what does that line mean?" He knew, of course, but he wanted to make sure that I knew, and wasn't just singing the song by rote.

And knowing what the song was all about made it possible for me to put something into it that made it come alive.

You simply can't do that if you don't KNOW the song and are reading it off a sheet of paper.

Keep a book of song sheets, yes. And use them to refresh your memory if you haven't sung the song for awhile. But do this at home in your own time.

And then leave the damned thing at home!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:39 AM

I was at the first performance of this, the day after the event it commemorated:

Steve Byrne's song on Nigel Farage's visit to Edinburgh

and Steve used a sheet when singing it. I would too.

Contrariwise I have been encountering a specific problem with slow sessions where people use sheet music. They often use books (like Nigel Gatherer's) with three or four tunes to a two-page spread. And usually those tunes do not belong together. But the peple who use the books regard the typographical medley in front of them as an unshakeable musical reality. The result is you get idiocies like two marches followed by a waltz, or (my pet hate) sets that randomly switch between tunes that fit in the pipe scale and ones that don't, which buggers up instrument selection for multi-instrumentalists and shuts smallpipers out entirely. Do these people select their friends from names occurring on the same page in the phone book?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 05:44 AM

Not a song I'd go out of my way to learn, quite frankly.

I've no time for Nigel Farage but I can't be bothered with SNP propoganda either.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: buddhuu
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:12 AM

At The Plough session we have a number of standard ensemble numbers that have just kind of evolved as such over the years as we've all gradually began to contribute bits and pieces to each other's songs. There is certainly no set list.

As for song books, I'm totally guilty. I'm a crap singer and a crap player. awareness of this saps confidence to the extent that I need the cheat sheets in case my mind goes blank. I try to play without looking at them, but disaster invariably ensues.

If people want to ban books at their sessions then that's fine; I won't inconvenience them with my presence. At my session, however, things are TOTALLY informal. Apart from a couple of rules that are there for the sole purpose of provoking people into breaking them, people can do whatever makes them happy and allows them to have fun. Ours is not a "performance" session, it is an inclusive, fun, having-the-craic-with-mates session. If people chose to sing without books then we even tolerate that.

As for iPads etc, I see no real difference between reading from paper and reading from a screen. If anything, the screen means less shuffling of paper and dropping of loose pages. It's not for me, but good luck to anyone who is not too anal to actually apply technology for something useful.

Enjoy your rules, dislikes, proscriptions and set lists. We'll just carry on having fun and spending more time singing and roaring with laughter than tutting at other people's insecurities. It may not be an approach that works for everyone, but it's kept my session going every week for the last 8 years or so.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 07:04 AM

The SNP propaganda bit of Steve's song is all in the last three verses. I'd leave those out. I also came up with a different refrain:

with a you kay eye pee and an eff oh ay dee

- at any rate, better to find a specific one that fits the verses.

The slow session last night had a rather odd mix. Half the people in the room knew all the tunes and never looked at any music. The other half used sheets for everything. No middle ground of people who could play some tunes from memory but not all. People in that category do exist, but I seem to see less of them than I used to.

The worst regular session player I know is one who doesn't read music at all, and learns a lot of her material off Phil Cunningham CDs. Playing along with the Phil in her head makes for even greater rigidity than following a score.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: JHW
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 08:39 AM

Don Firth thanks for confirmation that knowing your song was once taken for granted.
I went once to a house folk 'club' in Portland. There was a stage but only the MC used it. Everyone else sat round in concentric crescents, each with a ring file. 'OK turn to page 43 and we'll do Puff the Magic Dragon' And so they did, all together, many with guitars. They were aghast at my girlfriend's suggestion that they might like to hear a couple of songs from John just over from England, sung ON MY OWN ...

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 08:47 AM

There's a big difference, IMO, between informal sessions and more formal performances. I run a free-for-all session where people do occasionally bring a song-sheet, and I've no problem with that. We also have lots of laughter and fun.

But last night, for example, at a local acoustic performance, there were was a young, 3-girl group singing. Beautiful voices, nice choice of songs - absolutely no communication or eye contact with the audience as their eyes were glued to a communal book in front of them. I mentioned this (I hope) fairly gently to one of them afterwards, and she readily admitted that she felt unhappy with using a book and hoped to dispense with it when the three of them had been together longer.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 09:14 AM

EFDSS started it all with dance musicians playing from the dots and using music stands

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:11 AM

And one of those groups (Ranchers?) commented that their playing changed when they decided to stand to play, and did away with the music stands and dots.

Flora mentioned dance cards. I never use them for 'general public' ceilidhs, though if I've worked out a programme in advance I might print out a list with a few reminder of dances I use less often. And glance at the music stand when I go back to the stage to talk to the band.
But a dance club is different. I have a much bigger list of dances to work from. So I take cards. But I will have practised enough at home with cds to pretty much not use them use the music is playing. Having reminded myself in the walk-through (mustn't get the walk-through wrong or the wrong patterns are firmly imprinted in dancers brain - they take no notice of corrections and apologies).
On one occassion I suddenly noticed that there was a multiple of 5 couples, (not often the case), found the tape, walked and called Levi Jackson, and after the dance noticed that the 'talisman' card in my hand was for some other dance (the one that was on my list).

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:30 AM

"That's something I can't understand though.. when people can't even remember their own songs and tunes! It seems so odd when they have actually written the things themselves."
And if it's a new song, there's no-one out there who can help you if you forget!

But it's not about whether you've written them yourself or not: it's about how your own personal memory works. I do not have a photographic memory and have always struggled to learn WORDS. (Not just since I got older!) I "know" loads of songs when someone else is leading them, but not nearly so good at leading a song myself, tho' gradually over the years I have increased the number of songs I CAN sing without words in front of me: but there are HUNDREDS more that I like to sing, have sung, know how they go, yet would still need the words with me, if only to glance at.
In my working life, I had to learn so many facts and figures that my poor little brain won't take any more!
I have more of an "audiographic memory" in that I remember tunes much better: it maybe doesn't always manifest itself as being able to play you a tune, tho' I could usually sing the melody to you. (But with my efforts at doing more "ear playing", even this is getting better!)

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:57 AM

It's all about developing a personal relationship to the songs you're singing, the tunes you're playing or a better understanding of the dances you're playing for. Martin Carthy has commented somewhere to the effect that, whilst he's singing there's a film of the ballad/story running in his head and he's in there in the story. I don't have a film but I also don't sing a song in public as soon as I've learnt it. A song needs a few months to 'bed-in' or mature and become a part of you before you let it loose on an unsuspecting audience.

I sing at a monthly acoustic music club in Germany where most people have crib-sheets of one sort or another with them. On the one hand this irritates me, but on the other I think OK, they're trying to sing in english, a foreign language for them and perhaps they don't trust their linguistic abilities that much. That being said, I also suspect that some of them only decide what they're going to sing a day or so beforehand and they've got their work cut out dealing with the guitar accompaniment (they mostly sing pop/rock songs). What I do notice is that, for me,(and this is irrespective of the language being sung) because they've not really got into what they're singing it all tends to comes over as 'flat' or lifeless.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:05 AM

Just a thought - clubs could charge 20p donation to their charity for use of a music stand. Not enough to put people off if they really need it but a message about preference.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:16 AM

Hey GSS, trust you are well.

"EFDSS started it all with dance musicians playing from the dots and using music stands "

The EFDSS may have gone around arresting songs and tunes and locking them up in CSH but the use of dots for playing dance tunes goes back before Playford and has always been a feature of playing dance tunes.

Isn't that wht some many written collections of old dance tunes have survived?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 05:04 AM

The EFDSS may have gone around arresting songs and tunes and locking them up in CSH
Interesing viewpoint and a total lack of historical knowledge. It was the Folk Song Society which "arrested" the songs. All EFDSS did was put then in a nice library near Euston Station where they were accessible.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 07:51 AM

JHW

"Why Did We Let Them Get Away With It?!"

Just wondering JHW. Who is the "We" you are referring to? And come to think of it who is "Them", and how were/are the "We" going to police/enforce their wishes on the "Them"? T-shirts with broken music stand logos? Placards with "I won't stand for it!!" Turning of backs to performers using stands? A special shelf with warm beer for anyone using prompt cards? History shows that manufacturing false "us and them" divides, tends not to be very useful? Isn't one of the blessings of music that it is a unifying thing?

I have seen plenty of long established musicians using teleprompters (Springsteen, U2, Elton John etc.) and closer to home I have seen "crib sheets" used on more than one occasion by some well known Folk Musicians, and on the likes of The Transatlantic Sessions etc. Personally I don't feel it stilted the performances in doing so, and I would rather have those performances "out there" rather than not performed for the sake of a sheet of A4.

I personally find it more than a little irritating when the usual suspects start a rambling, disjointed introduction to a tune/song that is sometimes longer than the piece itself. But I don't sit there making my displeasure known, or suggest to the committee a system of TUC style green, amber, red lights.

Thankfully it really does "take all sorts"; that's why I like folk clubs. A random gathering of misfits with a common interest!

ATB, Lavengro

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:25 PM

Fair enough Guest:

"The EFDSS may have gone around arresting songs and tunes and locking them up in CSH
Interesing viewpoint and a total lack of historical knowledge. It was the Folk Song Society which "arrested" the songs. All EFDSS did was put then in a nice library near Euston Station where they were accessible."

Maybe a bit over the top - just re-reading The Imagined Village again - amazing book

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 02:49 PM

none of which alters the fact that the EFDSS encouraged musicians to play from the dots , percussionists were exempted, perhaps the EFDSS did not consider percussionists[ particularly goat bashers] musicians

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 03:37 PM

Lavengro, The worth of knowing your song has oft been discussed so my post was to add an angle. There are those like me who came into folk music back when everyone who sang knew their song. I was happy with that and so it seemed at the time was everyone else. I wondered from whence came the change. Sorry if I was too dramatic.

I'm disappointed to learn that some renowned performers use cribs. I did know that some mime to recordings.
I'm sure that when Folk Clubs come to this there will be those who defend it.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:01 PM

Dyslexic musicians among us number about 1 in 10 and would find the sheet music more of a distraction than a crutch. Still I would welcome chord change reminders as a life long novice.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:17 PM

Just a random thought. Maybe The Coppers have a lot to answer for.
Do the new generations of the family rely on "the book" more than their parents?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 04:26 PM

AND as far as I can read "the oral tradition" has only been mentioned once in more than 70 posts. That's what it's about. Folk music is not some self help social work project. If people insist that they must have words and music in front of them maybe they should join a community choir. There are plenty of them about nowadays. My memory is fading but I'm fighting it all the way.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 06:07 PM

Will Fly wrote
"she readily admitted that she felt unhappy with using a book and hoped to dispense with it when the three of them had been together longer."

From a phone call that I took today, I believe that I know the trio that you are talking about, Mike, and 'young' here is a relative term. One is a mum with two kids and they have been performing together for longer than you might think.... long enough to have learned the words and a bit about communicating with the audience.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:23 AM

There was a time when I could reliably remember the lyrics and chords to hundreds of songs. Unfortunately that is no longer the case. Therefore I use a music stand at gigs, with printed lyric sheets on it.

I'm sorry if anyone thinks that's cheating (not all that sorry, actually), but it takes nothing away from me or the band being rehearsed. It's just insurance. And I do put them in order beforehand.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:16 AM

I find some of the poorest acts in a sing around are those who read the poems of others. There is always that feeling that if they learnt them the presentation would be so much better. I know Les (and the Coppers) use books - but it always feels like part of the act.
However, I have to admit to using a booklet when it comes to Xmas songs and carols - I only play them one month a year. I never remember verse three and beyond, and my copy has useful bits of notation like SN; start note.   
FloraG

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:44 AM

Hi Flora, we use the dots in The Beech tunes sessins because we started as a Beginners Group.

As I have tried to explain above, tune players - playing for dancing and for fun have used books of dots - some handwritten many printed since at least Playford.We continue that tradition.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 06:16 AM

"It's all about developing a personal relationship to the songs you're singing".   This is how I approach the songs I sing. "whilst he's singing … he's in there in the story" Absolutely! How could I get into the story, how could I lose myself in the song/story if I didn't know it, if I had to read it? (How could I sing with my eyes closed?) I also enjoy listening to people who really mean what they sing; not ones who think that they are more important than the song they're singing, that their need to perform is more important than the song itself.   For me the song comes first and the performance (and more accurately the performer) second.

Luckily, this is the "folk world". At my regular (fortnightly) singaround nearly every singer seems to feel the same. It was actually set up by a few singers who had had enough of the other type of singaround. Occasionally a newcomer or visitor may arrive with their words or song book. Perhaps they get a second song, probably they don't. Some continue to come along and adapt to the "norms", some stop coming. OK, it's discriminatory but it works and we have a brilliant singaround that suits all the regulars (and it's one of the best attended singarounds I've been to.). There is one person, recently recovering from a stroke who always gets a song and always has the words in front of them but they've "earned" the special dispensation from the past. The reason I'm not posting by name is so that there's no way of identifying, and possibly embarrassing, that person.

BUT, I also occasionally go to other clubs and singarounds where there are singers who have their bits of paper and even two who bring their own music stands. I don't really enjoy their performances, not because of the aids but because their performance is not as good, perhaps because they need the aid in the first place. The hiatuses (hiati???) where they lose their place and have to look down etc. and even the initial fumbling for the right page all detract from the song. (True in the "no paper" club someone will occasionally forget their words but it seems to happen much less frequently with these singers.)   Still the "performance" clubs work for their regulars and I don't have to go there (usually I don't) so I say live and let live. Thanks to the variety of the "folk world" at least I can go somewhere where my preferences are catered for.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 06:27 AM

GUEST, what on earth was the point of writing all that if you aren't going to tell us who you are and where the singaround you want to make people unwelcome at is?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 07:26 AM

Les, I think there's a subtle difference between playing music specifically for dancing and playing music as a direct performance to a listening audience.

For the dance, exactness and clarity are important - all playing together, keeping a steady tempo, playing the right notes at the right time. And the "audience" aren't watching the musicians - they're interacting with each other, and the music is the glue that holds that interaction together. For a band to use dots is not a problem, and has been done - as you rightly say, for hundreds of years.

But projecting and performing, face to face, with an audience that is silently concentrating on you requires, IMO, a rather different set of skills - and the barrier of the permanent music stand and the permanent folder of unlearned songs is a barrier indeed for me.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 07:27 AM

@ Jack Campin

Glad you posted on that one Jack because I am still open mouthed! No really. I sat at the laptop wondering what the strange noise was, and it was me dribbling on the keyboard.

If I was thirty years younger I might have said OMG!

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 07:34 AM

Les - I was referring to another Les who writes and reads his own poems - not yourself methinks. Sorry for any confusion.
I admire anyone who starts anything going in the way of live music.
Do your beginners find they can pick up tunes by ear at some point and then start experimenting, or does it inhibit them from this?
I've heard a singing group start with a note and then told to find other notes that harmonise, before being given the words and music for the main part of the practise.
I've also been in a workshop where we were just given the chords and told to make tunes round them - mostly on the arpegios - before the workshop leader put the actual tune above what we were doing. That might make a very interesting variation with your group.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Marje
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 08:10 AM

For what it's worth, a community choir (Guest TF, above)won't necessarily use wordsheets. I was in a community choir for a couple of years and we performed everything from memory. We almost never had written music for the tune parts, as everything was taught by ear, and this meant that the words were pretty much learned aurally along with the tune. At some point we were given a written wordsheet, and were required to learn this by heart, even though much of the material was in languages other than English.

And dyknowwhat, everyone managed it somehow. No one claimed exemption on grounds of age, illness, inexperience, laziness or general slow-wittedness. Everyone just got on and learned the words. The performance benefited enormously from this, as we could make eye contact not only with the audience but also with each other as we sang our different parts, usually standing in a semicircle. it's a much more rewarding experience than standing in straight rows singing from a book.

Marje

marje

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 10:31 AM

@ Will Fly:

Generally I'd agree with you as far as dance bands are concerned. The main thing is that the band has it's tunes reasonably off pat, is reasonably familiar with the dances, knows how to give that subtle emphasis at the start of each new 16bar figure (english dances) and is flexible enough to react if, despite everything, chaos develops. The problems I referred to earlier come when the music stands become barricades and stop the interaction between musicians and dancers developing. I've been there, I've tried to dance it......

Don

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:13 PM

You cannott put any feeling or presentation straight reading of a lever arch file, ipad epad dpod or whatever.

If you need a crutch, safety net whatever to get a song bedded in no problem, Dont forget however that you do get to depend on crutches and the longer you leave it the harder it is.
But what grinds me gears is the constant use of them (see Duncan Macfarland)

Also this constant whining like " oh it is ok for you, I really cannot learn stuff"


Arrant crap, if you cant learn the song, find another pastime, but dont inflict your laziness on the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Megan L
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:41 PM

Min min hids great tae be perfect

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:50 PM

Er, I think I agree with Megan. I tend to concentrate on the quality of my on performance. If you think you're so great, lead by example, be a role model.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 02:19 PM

It all goes back further than that. It's that bloody alphabet. Became such a crutch as we no longer use our memories.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 02:35 PM

Next time someone starts a thread bemoaning the fall in numbers at folk clubs, the perception that young people aren't interested in attending folk clubs any more, blah blah, moan moan, whinge whinge. Perhaps we just need to look at some of attitudes displayed above.

I think Johnny Kalsi would get more hospitality at an English Defence League barbeque.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 04:33 PM

People who are plying for dancers should be watching the dancers not looking at tadpoles, it is about quality of performance. however I used to play in a band called the new mexborough english concertina quartet, and we used to look at the tadpoles, because the music and the parts were extremely complicatedhttp://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/5148

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 05:36 PM

our indigenous culture seems to have become so degenerate that most people equate 'music' with the written stave and think anything but manuscript music is not really music- see how jazz (especially the traditional variety)is looked down on. It's a widespread, if mistaken, mindset and who can blame folk seeking to take part in an enjoyable social experience for starting off using the dots/ written lyrics. Some people have an innate facility to remember tunes/words but some folk don't have that gift, and surely shouldn't be pilloried for 'cribs' even after years of involvement- that is if we are the sensitive folk we think we are. BUT it is not really acceptable if money is being charged- this is a 'performance' and the 'performer' certainly has a duty to give a paying audience value for his/her fiver or whatever - forgetting words is one thing, and as we (me!) get older it happens more often. I know of some older and well known performers who happily use a 'crib' and audiences accept this- they've earned respect over the years, and the alternative is to stop performing altogether...one such singer told me that since he's accepted the cribsheet/music stand as a necessity, he's never needed it!
Am not a believer in learning from printed sources, but some 'traditional' singers of past years certainly were! Maybe musicians are different- I loved a quote Joe Burke made once about a tune he loved dearly- 'I knew this tune before I learned it'- doesn't that speak volumes?

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: CupOfTea
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:04 PM

Ok, I've thrown away the crutch, but I occasionally use a cane...

I sympathise utterly with the feeling that using "reading a song" to replace oral tradition - has both stifled vibrant song circles and caused others to never take off. In the US the saturation of Rise Up Singing is the major problem.

I recently did a workshop at a regional dulcimer festival called "Singing Outside THE BOOK."   Unfortunately, I was preaching to people of THE BOOK - in this case the song & tune book created by the organization's leader - and had a pitifully small turnout. While he's done wonders in getting lots of people to play traditional music, they're so wedded to THE BOOK that in the evening song circles, I've been made to feel like a pervert for wanting to do something in the key of C - which suits MY voice better.

An aside: This plays to another pet peeve about the folks stuck "in THE BOOK" - the attitude that you really shouldn't do anything that the group can't ALL join in playing/singing out of THE BOOK. (as a lap dulcimer group, they never wanted to get out of D, While being wedded to a specific key is appropriate for traditional tunes, it doesn't work for vocal ranges.) I live in a region that's now very sparse in traditional singers & not much in other areas of folk either, so it's a sticky issue to be prissy about someone gushing about just discovering Rise Up Singing. Song circles, pub sings, after festival song sessions - all those have melted away here. I envy those on t'other side the Atlantic who have many places to go to sing with others, and other areas of the US where there are choices in Folk Festivals and venues.

In "Singing Outside THE BOOK" I showed how songs are put together, line, verse, chorus, refrain, and using that knowledge to LISTEN to what people are singing, to THINK, and to KNOW when you can join in - all skills I learned in an atmosphere of aural tradition that barely exists here anymore.

That cane vs. crutch thing - I've mostly "learned" a song from "the singing of-----" But, if I've not had the chance to hear that person sing it often enough to know it completely, I go for the written. Writing it down helps me to learn/remember it & work out chords. I use a personal "fake" book as a tool & it evolves from edition to edition - sometimes just the name and the chords, or a first line of the verses, and adding songs I'm working on learning. I keep the whole text of long songs so I can go over them BEFORE performing EVEN if I know the song. I think of Frank Harte, a man who "knew" thousands of songs & used his cheat book when teaching, but not when performing. The cheat sheet/fake book/"cane" is a tool to be used wisely.

I wish you encounters with wisdom and good songs,


Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:54 PM

"saturation of Rise Up Singing".    Amen.

And what that is causing is:    those of us in the US who actually believe in learning songs are boycotting groups known to have Rise Up Singing books used,   We form our own groups and have our own gatherings (invitation only).

Not precisely the ideal inclusive "folk attitude", but life is too short to suffer bad music--and that's what use of Rise Up Singing at singing sesssions causes.

I'm really to sorry to hear about those conditions in Cleveland, but Joanne you might want to see if you can make it out to the Getaway some year--you won't have the RUS problem.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 02:00 PM

as a lap dulcimer group, they never wanted to get out of D

How traditional is that?

The Turkish saz (very similar in its setup) uses a zillion different tunings (ok, a lot of individual players only use one or a few). I can't imagine why the lap dulcimer would have settled on one tuning early in its evolution.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Jun 13 - 09:40 AM

Warning... non PC humour here...

Some Italian musicians arrived at a local song session and asked if they could have a "sheet on the table"....

You know the rest....

:-)

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Jun 13 - 03:07 PM

I occasionally sing with a crib, but I've never sung from the words except in church. But I know I've got an unusually retentive memory for song lyrics - if I like a song the words seem to stick, and by and large they stay stuck. The second verse comes after the first one, and the rest of the song comes along behind. (I thought I'd forgotten The Cruel Ship's Carpenter the other day, but I realised I'd only forgotten the first line - once that came back to me, the rest of the song was there waiting.) If singarounds were restricted to people who learn songs as easily as me, they'd be a lot more thinly attended and I'd get a lot more songs. So it wouldn't be all bad.

Having said that, I did 'dry' a couple of weeks ago, when I got a bit too confident - I'd come prepared to do Randy Dandy-O and decided at the last minute to do Oak, Ash and Thorn instead. Verse one was fine, but where the hell was verse two? It was on somebody's smartphone, that's where, for which I'm eternally grateful. "Oak of the clay lived many's the day"... and we were off again.

Don't ban cribs. Do encourage learning. And the best way to encourage it is to show that it makes the songs better.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 09:15 AM

Good man Phil- being positive is much the best option

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 07:31 PM

You're a lucky man, Phil, and thanks for a balanced view.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: RichM
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 08:42 PM

I haven't followed up on my single posting above, some time ago.

That's because I am disgusted with the elitist attitude shown by many of the comments. Do you also feel superior to people who use a cane (I happen to use one, as well as a foul memory aid when singing).

What about wheelchairs? Do you also sneer at musicians who use one?

I am white-hot sick of this kind of attitude from a pretentious bunch of traditionalists.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 05:21 AM

Rich - there's a deal of difference between being physically disabled to such an extent that you need an aid such as a wheelchair or a cane, and not taking the trouble to learn a set of songs properly. (One of my best musician friends uses an arm crutch because of problems with arthritis - he's a marvellous singer who performs professionally at folk clubs with no prompts).

At my own session/singaround - where the standard is mixed - we all sit round a table and chat and play and sing and have fun and drink beer. Sheets of words and chords are used if people need them, and I have no problem with that - and I'm the organiser and host of the session.

However - and it's a big however - if I'm paying to go to a club where people are performing, whether as guests or as floor spot singers, I'm expected to (and happy to) sit still and quietly and give them my full attention. I get very bored with people who waste my time by (a) fiddling with a music stand (b) shuffling interminably through a folder of songs until they find one they want to perform (c) stare at the music and even lose their place while not communicating in any way with the audience (d) stopping and starting in spite of having the music. I've lost the will to live with this style of public performance - which is not a disability but sheer laziness and incompetence.

If a performer keeps a crib sheet to one hand, I can live with that. But I have to say - harsh as it may sound - that, if a would-be performer has a genuine difficulty with learning a repertoire, then perhaps public performance is not their métier. I first played in folk clubs in the '60s and I can't ever remember even floor singers using cribs. When I returned to playing occasionally in folk clubs after years playing other music (jazz, blues, rock'roll, funk) for 40 years, I couldn't believe the difference.

I'm not a traditionalist, by the way - I'm just a musician who loves all styles of music - and (I hope) in no way pretentious. I've done free workshops for beginners on performing in public and made available literally hundreds of music arrangements and transcriptions on my web site, plus a large number of instructional videos on YouTube. All free - and all because I care about good music. Don't confuse genuine disability with laziness.

Subject: RE: Throwing away the crutch....
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 05:34 AM

Know your song well before you start singing, to an audience anyway.
100.