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News story on Bob Brozman allegations

Related threads:
Bob Brozman legal issues (406) (closed)
Brozman on the Backbeat (18)
Obit: Bob Brozman (1954-2013) (43)


GUEST 05 Jun 13 - 10:27 PM
Reinhard 06 Jun 13 - 12:17 AM
GUEST 06 Jun 13 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,leeneia 07 Jun 13 - 10:17 AM
Jack Campin 07 Jun 13 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Sandra 07 Jun 13 - 02:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 13 - 08:22 PM
GUEST 07 Jun 13 - 10:25 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 08 Jun 13 - 07:37 AM
matt milton 08 Jun 13 - 12:46 PM
Jack Campin 08 Jun 13 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Joanie 12 Jun 13 - 08:16 PM
Jack Campin 13 Jun 13 - 04:43 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 13 - 05:17 AM
GUEST 13 Jun 13 - 04:24 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 13 - 10:38 PM
Jack Campin 14 Jun 13 - 05:36 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 13 - 07:07 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 13 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,stevesg 14 Jun 13 - 09:48 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Jun 13 - 07:01 AM
Will Fly 15 Jun 13 - 08:48 AM
GUEST 12 Jul 13 - 01:32 PM
Jack Campin 12 Jul 13 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,nudistbudist 25 Jul 13 - 10:26 AM
GUEST 25 Jul 13 - 11:00 AM
matt milton 25 Jul 13 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,leeneia 26 Jul 13 - 09:49 AM
Uncle_DaveO 26 Jul 13 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Aug 13 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,Silent observer 15 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Aug 13 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,Chris 24 Aug 13 - 03:55 PM
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Subject: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 10:27 PM

http://www.santacruz.com/news/2013/06/04/the_dark_side_of_genius


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Reinhard
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 12:17 AM

Why is it always the coward anonymous GUEST who is stirring the flames here?


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 02:49 PM

"Why is it always the coward anonymous GUEST who is stirring the flames here?"

The linked story has a reporter by-line. Don't shoot the (different guest) messenger.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 10:17 AM

Don't you find it kind of odd that a father would wait from 1994 to 2013 to say anything about the abuse of his own 9-year-old?


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 11:28 AM

They waited till Brozman was dead and could say nothing.

But Brozman has family who are very much alive... and also saying nothing.

You'd expect anybody in their situation, whatever the facts, to appoint a PR rep and a lawyer to deal with the mess. They must be able to afford them. But there is no sign of any professional intervention so far.

The longer this runs the less sense it makes.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 02:08 PM

"The longer this runs the less sense it makes."

It makes a lot more sense if you consider the amount of money at stake.

"Lawyers, gag orders, and money"

Too bad in the end the children keep getting shafted.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 08:22 PM

Always check the sources. Basic life rule.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 10:25 PM

Please remember that those who may be (or may have been) taking legal action (and their parents too) are almost certainly prohibited from saying anything at all in public while the legal wheels grind in their very slow way. If there's a settlement with the estate, it may be under the conditions that the victim NEVER is able to speak publicly about this.

This means that there probably isn't going to be any public corroboration of all this messy stuff, nothing in the public record, but just because the victims haven't spoken publicly, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Also please remember that there is probably a lot we don't know -- sometimes a child (and/or their parent) will be reluctant to go the distance when it comes to accusing and confronting publicly their molester. Often children, even when backed up by parents, are not able to produce hard evidence of what happened, and without that, there's no case.

Whatever Bob may have done in his personal life, there's no doubt that he contributed a huge amount to the world of music.
Suzy T.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 07:37 AM

> ...there probably isn't going to be any public corroboration of all this messy stuff, nothing in the public record, but just because the victims haven't spoken publicly, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It doesn't mean it *did* happen, either. No hard evidence, only hearsay. An accused man who can't defend himself, victims who don't - for whatever reason, can't/won't - speak up. A man who waits until his "perp" is dead, by which time the California statute of limitations has passed, before telling us about his 9-year-old daughter, who is now 28 and presumably able to speak for herself.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying that it will take more than trial-by-internet/gossip to convince me that I have enough facts to really form a judgment on this man.

What Guest Henryetta said bears repeating: "Beware of web pages that resemble newspapers or magazines but don't do the things that real reporters are supposed to do - check the facts, get the whole story, present all sides of an issue. On the net it's easy to make a page LOOK professional, with borders and pictures, and fancy type faces. It's harder to do the real work."

Now spot the impeccable sources in this story:

- - -

The story of Bob Brozman's death has been one shock after the other... First, there was the initial, confusing news of his passing, which was vague enough that different outlets reported different dates...

The cause was initially said to be heart failure, but within a few days it was common knowledge that he had committed suicide. The story was about to get a lot uglier.

Because Brozman was only 59, and a much-loved figure both locally and in the global guitar community, many people who knew him latched on to the story that chronic pain from an automobile accident in 1980 had worsened and left him suicidal... It seemed a possibly credible motivation, even for a man who had reportedly been making rehearsal plans just hours before his death.

But it wasn't. In fact, it appears that the story actually originated not from Brozman's friends or family, but from a Guardian reporter who misinterpreted what he had been told in interviews, and reported it in his obit as fact. Though Brozman did complain of pain in the years before his death, the story that it led to his suicide took on a life of its own, circulating through the local, national and international media. Several people I interviewed immediately after his death related it to me, but in retrospect it appears they had gotten it second-hand, either from the Guardian story, one of the subsequent obits, or someone who had read or heard one of them.

None of them were prepared for what came next. Shortly after the Santa Cruz Weekly cover story on his death hit the streets, a much more sinister possible reason for his suicide came to light: there were accusations of child molestation against him.

Some of the people connected to these allegations began posting in the comments section of our web site. One was Gary Atkinson, Brozman's former UK tour manager, who declined to be interviewed for this story, but laid out the charges of "severe sexual abuse of a child" on the web site.

"This abuse happened some years ago..., " he wrote. "In more recent years he repeated this abuse on another underage person. All of his victims were well known to him. In addition, I tell can you that ... [in] 1994 on tour, he sexually abused my own daughter who, at the time, was nine years old. I have never forgiven him and I never will...."

None of the media outlets that eulogized Brozman have reported on the molestation charges. Meanwhile, Internet message boards have generated everything from seemingly useful insider insight to ludicrous misinformation.

Because of Brozman's death, there is much about his story that may never be known by anyone not directly involved. There will likely be no investigation into the molestation charges now. There may be suits or settlements one day, but I couldn't find any record of the mysterious "pending court date" that some have claimed specifically motivated Brozman's suicide.

If it was a civil case, it wasn't filed locally. If it was a criminal case, it would be subject to a complicated tangle of different statutes of limitations on child sexual abuse, which vary from state to state—some states have none at all, while California has a statute of limitation of six years, but several loopholes.

I didn't expect that anyone I approached who was close to this story would want to go on the record about it, and that proved to be correct. In time, more information may come to light, and Brozman's story may evolve further, for better or worse. But for now—like Jimmy Savile, Gary Glitter, Michael Jackson and other music figures whose legacies were tainted or outright obliterated by child sexual abuse cases — his has been instantaneously altered. Almost overnight, he went from one of Santa Cruz's most-talked-about cultural figures to one of its least-discussed scandals.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: matt milton
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:46 PM

The statement here expresses it in a nutshell for me:

http://www.thecountryblues.com/artist-reviews/bob-brozman/

Personally, I don't think I'll ever be listening to Bob Brozman's music with the same feelings again.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:58 PM

That site is simply repeating Gary Atkinson's allegations with no attempt whatever to check them. It's a disgusting piece of lynch mob gutter journalism and confirms all the worst preconceptions I had about country music fandom.

I'd hardly heard of Brozman before and had never knowingly heard a note of his playing, but as a result of the discussions here I bought one of his CDs a couple of weeks ago (with Debashish Bhattacharya). I'm not fond of the singing but otherwise it's pretty impressive.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST,Joanie
Date: 12 Jun 13 - 08:16 PM

But the biggest piece of evidence is that Bob Brozman suddenly killed himself, despite having a wife and a daughter. I don't really think the explanation that he was physically suffering for 10 years after an accident really holds water.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 04:43 AM

So you're saying David Munrow was a paedophile too?

Stigmatizing suicides like that (if it was a suicide, no reputable source has confirmed that) is mediaeval bigotry.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 05:17 AM

Guest Joanie, I don't think I follow you... you're saying that committing suicide despite having a relationship & a child is "evidence"?? Evidence of what? Paedophilia? Are you kidding, or trolling, or what????

And: How on earth do you know it was sudden? The final act itself - the thing everyone can see - often is, but who can really know how long the path leading to it was?

The list of suicides who left weeping spouses and children behind is endless (including the non-famous people we've all known). Each person's grief and backstory is different, and to lump them under one huge and vague category and then make blanket judgments is ludicrous and deeply unfair. Not only to them but to the people who loved them and were left behind. They're already in enough pain as it is.

Unless I've misunderstood you? But I can't come up with any other interpretation of that astonishing statement.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 04:24 PM

In his last cd, brozman said about his death on this song or I didn't get it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxNN2qdAkSQ


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 10:38 PM

One of the victims was the daughter of Bob's first wife. What is left in the wake of that failed marriage is a broken family: a mother and daughter estranged because she blames the mother for allowing the abuse to happen by not believing her. That is a sad reality.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jun 13 - 05:36 AM

Thanks for that anonymous glob of uncorroborated rumour.

Any chance you could work Satanism into it as well?


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 13 - 07:07 AM

I don't know whether Guest at 4:24 pm is "Joanie" or someone else, so am not sure if their post is intended as a reply to mine or not, but either way:

I've listened to the track* and can't see how it tells us much of anything one way or another. Certainly NOTHING with regard to child abuse. It seems to be a person's meditation on death, and it's generalised enough that listeners can make it mean just about anything they want to. Impending suicide? Maybe. But not necessarily. We-were-born-to-die is one of the great poetic tropes, and mortality has been a theme throughout centuries of literature and song. In fact these lines could suggest fear of heart attack -

I feel funny in my chest
My friends are telling me to take more rest

And OK, it shows a devil's mask. So what? (There's your Satanism, Jack.)

This stuff is not "evidence". It's anonymous rumour and vague interpretation. I can only repeat what I wrote above:

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying that it will take more than trial-by-internet/gossip to convince me that I have enough facts to really form a judgment on this man.


*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxNN2qdAkSQ


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 13 - 05:45 PM

I've just been reading an earlier entry by the same blogger (Steve Palopoli) which the original-posting Guest linked to. And I see that Gary Atkinson says there was a witness to the episode regarding his (then) 9-year-old daughter: a friend of the same age. On May 2nd Atkinson wrote:

"I confronted him about it and he would not admit to anything. There was a witness. My daughter's friend, also nine years old but she would not speak out."

And that's all he says about her. (Did she tell her parents, I wonder?) If he confronted Brozman about it and Brozman would not admit to anything, it makes me question how much Atkinson actually saw for himself. If he'd been there and watched it happen, surely Brozman would not have been able to deny it, at least to him - ???

This friend would now be nearly thirty. And she's still not speaking out. Why?   

So we have
- Victims/Witnesses who don't give their side of the story
- An accused suspect who can't give his
- No realistic hope of any official investigation

It's very hard for us outsiders to understand the veil of silence that seems to have descended over those directly involved. It's as hard to understand as it is easy to jump to conclusions.

Bloggers who do sign their names to the allegations are only re-circulating the unsubstantiated gossip of those who don't. Whatever happens, a man's reputation is destroyed forever. At the click of an anonymous button. 


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST,stevesg
Date: 14 Jun 13 - 09:48 PM

The real story resides in the memory of the participants and in a grand jury report. Few participants are talking. Some participants are forbidden by law to talk. Documentary evidence is long gone. Nothing can be corroborated.


_There will be no unequivocal resolution_


It's like listening to an old 78 of a bluesman so obscure that the recording is the only proof that s/he ever existed. I think I heard that line decades ago at a Brozman concert.

stevesg


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 07:01 AM

I'm only raising this to the top once more to point out that I hadn't previously read any of the other Brozman threads (linked in blue at the top of the page). Not out of willful ignorance, but because I honestly didn't think they related to this issue. The idea of wading through 400-odd posts on a legal matter, in a thread that got Closed (which usually means that's the only way to stop the fighting), made me lose the will to live. I figured it would be a dispute about copyrights or something. Therefore I wrote everything above without having seen the discussion that had gone before: I didn't know there was one. But after my last post and Stevesg's message, I decided to take a peek. God.

I haven't written anything here which I would now repudiate, but reading the statements of the few people who have insider knowledge and use their genuine identities has certainly given me pause. Chief among those is Duck Baker, whose music I have loved for years, but he's not the only one. When someone is prepared to put their own professional name on the line and agree to communicate via their website, and that person says publicly that they have direct insight into the situation from those involved, it gets my attention and earns respect. Rick Turner also put it well: I can understand initial disbelief; none of us wants to have to believe this stuff; but folks who are really close to the center have posted here and at Santa Cruz.com, and they have used their real names, thereby putting their lifes' reputation on the line.

These are probably as close to witnesses as we're going to get, though I still have questions and can't make a lot of things compute. Because they're prepared to speak up under their own identities, I'm prepared to listen seriously and be influenced. I'm still not drawing any hard and final conclusion, but I think there needs to be a measure of moral Negative Capability. That's the dilemma with anonymity and silence when you can also see reasonable cause for them.

I'd wondered why this thread was so quiet and relatively sane. Now I know: everybody's exhausted.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Jun 13 - 08:48 AM

Bonnie, I know nothing of the music or the personal life of Bob Brozman, so I've been reading all this stuff - here and on other forums - with a reasonably open mind. And I've kept silent because of my lack of any real knowledge of the situation.

The one question, however, that kept privately re-occurring to me and kept nagging at me me was precisely the one that's hit you: why would people like Gary Atkinson (for example) and others, put their heads above the parapet and make the statements that they made if there wasn't some good reason for doing so? There is no financial gain to be made and, as we have seen, there's a real risk of being thoroughly trashed publicly by the pro-Brozman contingent.

I was very interested to read Duck Baker's comments on Mudcat. I know Duck (through promoting a concert for him and in other casual conversations) and consider him to be a person of absolute integrity and honesty. I can't imagine that Duck would publicly state what he stated without a reasonable understanding of the Brozman situation.

For those that say, "why now - why not at the time?", I can only suppose that money, lawsuits, gagging orders and horrendous publicity for those affected would have been a good reason for staying silent. Look at all those people in the Savile case who only dared to shout out after he was dead, or who were ignored or told that they must be imagining things at the time.

What was quite sad for me was the showing of Wood Mann's excellent film about the life of the Reverend Gary Davis ("Harlem Street Singer") at the Ropetackle in Shoreham (Sussex) last Tuesday. Among the talking heads in the documentary was Bob Brozman. Every time he appeared, the forum discussions and allegations about him kept popping into my head... quite distracting, I have to say.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 01:32 PM

http://www.thecountryblues.com/artist-reviews/bob-brozman/


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 02:00 PM

Yeah, we know about those arseholes recycling unchecked rumours. What else is new?


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST,nudistbudist
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 10:26 AM

When I heard bob died of a heart attack I cried, minutes later it was suicide, I had a very different reaction. WTF and WHY? I let it be for some time and then weeks later I googled and discovered all this. I so don't want this to be true, I have a photo with bob and his hand on my wifes pregnant tummy effectively on my sons head. As a victim of child abuse it was over twenty years that my perpetrating priest was put in the safest place behind the cold steel bars. I had long forgotten about justice but it seemed others hadnt,so that was that..Meanwhile along my journey I was again a victim, now of physical abuse leaving me in IC with a bleeding brain and more emotional damage.This time my perp was an acclaimed actor, a star. I was told that he was to big to take on in court and so I didn't. My point is this, move on. There's no surprises left just broken piece's one way or the other. Please exercise sensitivity, I loved BOB but I love all people to. Why defend or accuse the unknown.Seperate music from the man.Genius can lay outside of personality it seems. Thankyou x


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 11:00 AM

"There is no financial gain to be made and..."

You can't assume that. My sister-in-law rents a pokey bungalow near Monterey (sp) which was built as a simple vacation home in the 1920's. It has no yard and a dangerous set of front steps. She told me it was worth about $1,000,000 today.

If Brozman bought a home in the right part of CA back in the '1960's or 70's, then his estate may well be worth a lot of money.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: matt milton
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 05:09 PM

"Every time he appeared, the forum discussions and allegations about him kept popping into my head... quite distracting, I have to say."

Well this is the thing ... the fact is it is impossible to, as someone else suggested, "separate music from the man".

Eric Gill was a great artist and typographer, but the fact is, realistically, his art will ultimately be forgotten because (rightly) no curator would ever want to stage a retrospective of his, on account of the fact he was a paedophile. That's not something to bemoan – it's how things ought to be. A civilised society understands that some crimes are just beyond the pale, and that that's more important than whether someone was a good artist or musician or whatever.

Of course, that is very unfair on the posthumous reputation of someone if the allegations were completely false. But unfortunately we'll most likely never really know the truth about Brozman. So rightly or wrongly, his music will ultimately become more and more obscure.Whether you regard that as unfair or not depends entirely on how much you credit the allegations.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:49 AM

That Guest post just above, about the $1,000,000 bungalow, was from me. Santa Cruz is a popular tourist destination now, so my musing is not far-fetched.

Maybe someone in the chain of allegators (people who allege things, like it?) just wants Brozman's family to give them some money to issue a retraction.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:12 PM

According to GUEST,Stevesgy,

The real story resides in the memory of the participants and in a grand jury report.

Has there, then, been a grand jury investigation? I didn't see that referred to in this thread, nor in the "news" article in the first or second post.

If there has been a grand jury investigation, I'll just point out that a grand jury report (which by its nature cannot be revealed) does not give "the real story". A grand jury does not, and is not intended or allowed, to give out "the real story". At most, it can only give the prosecutor the right to bring his accusations (if any) before a criminal court. It's a petit jury (a trial jury) that can make a finding of "the real story" that means anything.

What's more, even a trial jury's verdict of "guilty" or "not guilty" after trial does not necessarily give "the real story", even though it has legal status.   

And of course, Brozman being dead, there can be no criminal trial against him and no verdict.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:01 AM

FYI - when a district attorney wants to prosecute a case but does not want to take full responsibility for doing so, he turns it over a grand jury. The effect is the same, but it takes the spotlight off him. (I learned that from a lawyer and prosecutor.)

Of course there is no grand jury in this matter. There is no evidence. The supposed victim hasn't said anything, and the accused is dead.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST,Silent observer
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

So, if a victim does not testify ther can be no grand jury? What about I the case of murder? What about in assault that leaves the victim in a coma? I understand about the suspect not being prosecuted . Clarification about California grand jury proceedings should be provided by a legal expert in that state.
Are any of Bob's friends from his early days in Santa Cruz to be watched around children? This is a very important question for many reasons.


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:24 PM

Pedantic point:

a grand jury report (which by its nature cannot be revealed)

Surely it's not a matter of "by its nature" but rather by the rules applied in a particular legal system?


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Subject: RE: News story on Bob Brozman allegations
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 03:55 PM

Silent Observer wrote: "Are any of Bob's friends from his early days in Santa Cruz to be watched around children? This is a very important question for many reasons."

Which answers the question of Bonnie and Will why famous acquaintances of Brozman could chose this moment to speak against him; not to get in the crossfire themselves.

One can't believe everything and one can believe whatever one wants.
Which doesn't help in deciding what is true and what rumor of course....


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