BS: LOBSTAH!

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 04:25 PM

Gnu, I beieve there is a difference between the changes you mention EI for labourers in the fishery and EI (seasonal benefits) for the boat and lobster licernce owner. I could be wrong, but I don't think the changes you refer to impacts these folks.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 03:43 PM

Ed... "what politician wants to take that one on"

They all ready have. They have decided to cut EI for seasonal workers if they won't PAY to work within an hour drive for the rest of the year. This also threatens the viability of various businesses which rely on a trained seasonal workforce. I figger it might be because big corporations wanna buy em out but that would be a conspiracy theory.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:00 PM

Gnu, the fluctuation in water temperatuires have put the moulting and seasons out of whack.

But,UPEI lobster institute developed a blood protien test to determine quickly the moult state of a lobster and the meat quality.

I believe it is more up to the fishermen and those marketing the lobster to work out better seasons- as I suspect market quality is not a federal government responsibility ( I believe it is limited to conservation).

The soft fall lobsters are fine for canning- but can present a quality problem when sold fresh. But, again softer ones are becoming more frequent in southern and coastal waters. It's hard to pay market prices for soft lobsters that )ou end up canning at a lower end price
1hen folks unknowingly buy mushy-half filled soft lobster at a high price, they may thing again about buying lobstersd again.

REgardless, you fuck with the seasons (as they stand now) and you impact the lobster folks EI- what politician wants to take that one on:)

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:09 AM

Ed... I dunno why DFO can't get their act together, monitor the molts more closely and provide a fluctuating season, within reason, of course. Fishermen have to have some planning ability.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 10:22 PM

If you really object to dropping a live lobster into boiling water, just take an icepick and pith the damn thing. Cheaper than electric guzmos.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:42 PM

Cannmer lobsters are only caught in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Because the coastal waters of Northumberland Strait are much warmer, they normally moult twice a year, rather than once a year in most other colder water areas. It does take awhile for the meat to fill the new shelL (and much of the lobsters energy goes into that) , and the meat is soft and mushy for awhile. Meat 9ount can be up to about 27 percent in hard shelled lobsters- but down as low as 18 percent of the weight in recently moulted ones. The lobsters also reach sexual maturity at a smaller size in these areas than in colder water areas. The stocks would be impacted negatively if the smaller canners were fished in colder water areas. (BTW, the Gulf of St Lawrence is very cold in deeper water areas- it is just warmer in shaller areas near the coast in summer)



Because water temperatures arer warmer recently, it has thrown off the match between hard shell seasons. So,the quality is impacted- and more of the larger market lobsters are canned- as they ship and store poorly.

Personally, I find the soft shelled lobsters not worth eating- no matter where they are from.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:10 PM

I'm with McGrath. You only need to work ONE parish lobster sale to lose any desire for any and all things associated!

~Susan
BUT I WILL take a good crawfish etouffee!

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:21 PM

Sandy... I walk right behind the counter and grab one with dark/discoloured/black claws and push my thumb into the big claw. If it's hard, fine. If not, yer buyin salt water. Indeed these are REEEEAL tastety.

To each his own McGrath... more bugs fer me. >8-D

Urp. I am stuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:16 PM

Who's n for a plate of maggots?

Just about as appetising to many of us. The very thought makes my flesh crawl.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:04 PM

I find the smaller canners to have sweeter meat but the shells must be full. If the shells are hard they should not have recently moulted but soft ones are probably half empty!
I know that gnu and Kendall already know this so it is general information for others.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 12:50 PM

The local season, including Shediac Bay, started Aug 10. The Real Atlantic Superstore (Loblaw's East) put it on sale this week for $6/#. I went there today just as buddy was markin the price for cooked at $6/#. I said, I'll get the cooked ones ($1/# for cooking is the norm). I bought 6 about 0.85# each. I usually won't touch one under 1.25# but, for $32, we'll see. I assume the reason the price was dropped is the small size (known as "canners"). Some of them had very small tails and I am sure they will end up being used for something else or get chucked.... shame!

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 11:08 AM

Maine's natural resource is on its way to being endangered--in a year of abundance.

http://www.mpbn.net/Home/tabid/36/ctl/ViewItem/mid/5347/ItemId/28783/Default.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 02:06 AM

Just did a 'Net search for Hypnotize Lobster and clicked on a few of the results. Interesting! I no longer cook lobster because when I downsized I had no place to store large pots, but I still (rarely) eat lobsters elsewhere. If I was still cooking lobsters, i would like to try this but would probably be too afraid. My technique was to boil the water, hold the bag of lobsters over the pan, and drop the critters into the boiling water. If I did work up the nerve to try this, I would wear thick rubber gloves! Yes, I know the claws have elastic bands, but still, I would be scared.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 03:18 PM

I've also seen many cases of that black or white, them against us in Police officers, but we conservation officers are a different breed. Our main job is to help support the industry, not to see how many pinches we can make.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 03:11 PM

I hope that "Black and white" remark wasn't aimed at me. You don't know me from Adam's off Ox. I hate black or white, right or wrong, good or bad thinking.That's how I see most republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 02:04 PM

Ya know, I think you two guys agree on some points but do not agree on how the other one says the same thing. Ahm jus sayin eh?

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 09:50 AM

It's interesting that what some people call "successful business practices" (trying to get the best share of a common pie), others call "greed".

Unfortunately, the fish resources were once thought to be limitless in the past by most involved. This fueled a "race for the common resource". Now, all players know that this is not true and many look at things differently.

Fortunately many scientists and fishermen see the light, and are now working together to share expertise in many natiions to do a better job of ensuring the health of the oceans resources.

As I alluded to earlier, law enforcement folks often see life and people in "black and white" versus the "grey" areas in other professions. Possibly it makes some better at their "black and white jobs. I suspect others take a broader viewpoint, especially when they no longer work in that field and shed this skewed perspective.

Unfortunately, in living and working in the sector, in the past I even came across many "greedy" fisheries enforcement folks - who turned a blind eye on their "poaching" pals and profited from it themselves, taking what they could, when they could. But, I certainly have a broader (and fairer) perspective than to brand all people in any work sector with the "bad apples".

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 07:43 AM

I depend on what I see with my own eyes.Commercial fishermen are among the greediest people on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 09:41 PM

Good points K and Ed. Ed... I will be looking at that link in detail on the morrow.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 09:12 PM

K: IMO, you paint a infairly biased and simplistic picture of both fishermen and scientists. While the situation may differ in your local, I have seen similar negative viewpoints when dealing with law enforcement folks before.

I worked both sides of the field for 36 odd career years, first representing fishermen and then inside government, closely beside government bioplogists/scientists. My observation is both have information to contribute, and both make errors and have the capacity to be wrong.

For example, the fishermen off northern Newfoundland overfished northern cod (a huge resource) to near extinction - they highgraded huge amounts of bycatch overboard), they cheated on catch figures,and believed there was no limit to the amount they could and could never harm the future stocks. They were wrong.

However, many of the "highly educated" biologists-scientists were enablers, and were sure that their estimates of the stocks (that fishermen operated under) showed that huge catches could be removed without harming the stocks. They were wrong.

The result: Huge historically strong stocks took a huge tumble in the mid 90's and never returned.

Where do two "wrongs" get you? Not to two separate "rights". To increased trust and cooperation, respect is required and a recognizition that each has knowledge to contribute for a joint cause. Neither group has all the answers or resources and can't do it alone.

By the way, I was fortunate to have played a founding role in setting up a group that for the past 20 years gets fishermen and scientists together to share knowledge, learn from each other, cooperate in science projects to make the fisheries healthier. Below is a link:Fishermen/scientists group

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 08:11 PM

I've seen many cases where lobster fishermen think that because they have been catching them for years that they know more about them than the state biologists. They look down on anyone who is educated.
Fact is, they know how to catch them, and that about all they know.
I can argue this point from personal knowledge gathered in 16 years of fisheries law enforcement.

Right now the commercial fishermen in Portland are blaming the government, ( The National marine fisheries service,My old agency) for reducing the amount of flounders and shrimp they can catch. They are the ones who have over fished them!

"When the last tree has been cut down, when the last fish has been caught, when the last river is polluted, only then will you realize, you can't eat money." (A very wise native American)

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 07:38 PM

I recall, a few years back, being at a tense meeting between loster fisherman and a lobster biologist who just delivered a top-down presentation on lobsters (with complex charts and graphs) to a gathering of seasoned lobstermen.

An wise older lobsterman stood up and asked the biologist, "how many hairs are there on the front swimeret of a three pound female lobster"?

The puzzled biologist replied, "I don't know"?

The wise old-salt smiled widely and said "Just as I thought. He then added, I don't know either - and that's a real good start. Instead of you coming here and talking down to us lobstermen, who have a lot of experience to share on our experience with lobster on the water, we can now start from a point where we all can admit that there are things we all don't know. I expect from there we can make real progress", he concluded.

Sometimes it is helpful to productive discourse for all to admit there are things they don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 07:19 PM

Let me put it another way, I really don't give a rodent's rump one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 05:55 PM

Gnu
Good project for you, combining Ford trucks and Chinese products, you enable you to come up with something lethal:)

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:01 PM

I can't argue with that, Ed. I wonder if I should build sommat with one of my Chinese Tire Eliminator Powerpaks. They will boost my piece a shit built Ford tough truck so they should be able to toast the odd bug eh?

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:57 PM

Look, for youself K:

Ur Quote: ""I knew nothing of the biology of the Lobster, and I never argue with one who should know more on the subject than I do.""

Well, you certainly are doing a good job of arguing with some biologists here - The scientists (in the links I provided) who conducted the research are also biologists, and did direct research in the area. Just because you know and worked with some biologists for awhile in the past does not make their opinions (whenever and however they were made) 100% right for all time. Research knowledge goes forward in time, not backwards in time.

First you state (disguised as a fact): "They (lobsters) don't feel pain, the simply react to dangerous stimulus....Those scientists...who should know...at the station assured me that Lobsters do not feel pain as we do".

Then you say in your last post "I don't know" and point to the expert-biologists where you worked as establishing this fact, (which, it seems you feel is not an opinion).

If you read what I linked you will see that the word "inconclusive" was used by the Canadian Lobster industry representative (who maybe also should know someone who knows). This does not mean they do not feel pain, in any way. No evidence, beyond heresay, has been put forward here to establish lobsters do not feel pain.

Yes, lobsters bodies evolved differently than ours, I suspect to suit their different living environment. Animals sense pain for a protective purpose. Since they are in a harsh environment with daily challenges, it seems very odd that they would evolve without such a needed response tool.

Lobsters reacting to a potential pain stimuli (such as the pain we feel) make decisions to avoid that (pain) stimmuli does lead research biologists-scientists toward saying "yes, they possibly do feel pain", not in the opposite direction, (as your comments suggest).

You will note that I never stated thay do or do not feel pain - I don't know, just as you "and the Germans" don't know. I noted that it's not clear, but it would be wise for the lobster industry to invest in better methods than boiling (or other similar stressful killing methods)for marketing purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 01:26 PM

Look, the information I have, which has come to me from biologists who should know, tells me they do not feel pain as we do. It's not an opinion, I don't know, and I doubt that anyone here does either.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 07:54 PM

""Hold strong, and keep the faith with what you believe in, K - I wish you well""

:)

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 07:32 PM

As I said, they do react to dangerous stimuli, it's a matter of survival. It still doesn't prove they feel pain as we do.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:42 PM

Maybe it comes down to which biologist one chooses to put more stock in (no pun intended), those who have conducted specialized research on the topic - or the ones with "expert" opinions?

Pain research?

A 2009 pain study

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:26 PM

I do not enjoy dropping a living thing into boiling water. If it starts flapping its tail it might splash me! I DO feel pain.
Sorry about the flippant remark, I've never had one flap around in the pot if I have first hypnotized it.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 07:51 PM

Well, I am an expert on one thing... hot weather, girls in bikinis, salt water sand between the toes, beer on ice, soda crackers and lobster... I am THERE! Sprechen sie SCOFF?!

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 07:35 PM

I knew nothing of the biology of the Lobster, and I never argue with one who should know more on the subject than I do.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 10:28 AM

Ed... agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 07:53 AM

""I worked at the Lobster research station in Boothbay Harbor Maine before becoming Captain of the patrol boat Explorer.
Those scientists at the station assured me that Lobsters do not feel pain as we do.""


What research did "these scientists" refer to to back that assessment-opinion up? From where they worked, I suspect their scientific expertise relates to lobster population health, not the topic at hand. Beyond that, why would their opinions (on that matter) be better than anyone else's who understands basic biology?

I also worked with lobster scientists and sector reps most of my career, and my assessment is that the "pain" issue is inconclusive, as the Canadian lobster representative stated in the news article posted. But, that's merely my opinion, and I am open to new scientific evidence, if anyone could provide it?


""By the by, what do the Germans know about Lobsters?""

They likely don't know much about lobsters, that is the point. When a sector rely's on the purchasing choices and changing beliefs-whims of others in the marketplace, it is best to pay attention to what they are thinking, saying, and who is supplying them with information (accurate, or otherwise).

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 07:30 AM

My career was as a conservation officer first for the state of Maine, as a Coastal Warden, then as a fisheries enforcement agent with the National Marine Fisheries service.
I worked at the Lobster research station in Boothbay Harbor Maine before becoming Captain of the patrol boat Explorer.
Those scientists at the station assured me that Lobsters do not feel pain as we do.

If you want to do them in without "Pain", simply put them into FRESH water for an hour or two. Overnight is better.

By the by, what do the Germans know about Lobsters?

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 06:46 AM

gnu, I suspect "mass boiling" is also a poor marketing angle, as well.

My comment relate to huge lobster companies involving big $ that process, and send lobsters to eating establishments.

One should not ignore the impact of animal rights groups, once they turn their sights in your direction. I seem to recall that many scientists used to say clubing young seals was humane, as it killed them swiftly. Even if it were, it would be foolish to ignore the impact of animal rights groups on this practice (who differed in their opinion on this form of death). The world is changing gnu, it is foolhardy to ignore it, if your income could be impacted.

As to lobsters feeling pain, even spokespersons from the Canadian lobster industry does not rule the possibility out - as noted near the end of end of the news item at the bottom of this post.

IMO, what you do at home is a personal matter between you and your lobster;)


German supermarkets

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 10:06 PM

Ed... thus we have electrocution en masse. Smart marketing. Only thing is, I don't have a bug electrocutin machine so I gotta use my lectric ta boil the water.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 09:47 PM

""I do not believe any of them have read The Sonnets or studied Greek philosophy""

Well, that may be one perspective on whether living creatures deserve ethical treatment or not? I suspect similar rational may have been used in the past to justify some very nasty treatment of humans :)

Regardless, f I were in the lobster industry, I suspect that (over the long term) a wise investment would be to spend a few research dollars in finding a better way of killing these animals than emersing them in boiling water.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 09:18 PM

Well... just by gut feelins... surely it feels pain. But, the shock of boiling water and the quick death combined with the fact that I do not believe any of them have read The Sonnets or studied Greek philosophy indicates to me that they taste delicious when boiled.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 08:44 PM

""Lobsters lack a central nervous system like ours. They don't feel pain, the simply react to dangerous stimulus.stimuli""


Yes, that is what has been widely stated by lobster industry interests, and government population assessment scientists,for many years - mostly by those who are most interested in the success of the lobster industry than a broader perspective.And, it has been widely repeated.

My recollection is that the question of whether lobsters feel pain or not (regardless of whether they have a nervious system similar to humans or feel pain exactly like humans) is no longer seen as being that clear, from a scientific perspective, that is..

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 05:57 PM

Lobsters lack a central nervous system like ours. They don't feel pain, the simply react to dangerous stimulus.stimuli,...

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 03:12 PM

Yeah but PETUI will still protest about eaten em... People for the Ethical Treatment of Ugly Invertebrates.

Not much of a joke but worth a shot eh.

I am sick of eaten bugs. Next scoff a yer bugs fer me will be August 10 or later. That's when our local season starts 25km from me. Bar none, the best tasting lobster come from the waters surrounding Shediac Bay because... I've explained it before... they just happens that they and the shellfish found therein *are*.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 01:57 PM

New stunner technology of the future?
device

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jun 13 - 07:00 AM

I learned that hypnotism trick from former Governor, former Senator, former Secretary of State, former VP candidate,Ed Muskie of Maine.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 05:45 PM

Didn't do it, Becca. Shit came up. K... hehehehee! Seriously! Ya gotta do a YT vid. Ya didn't even tell anyone here yer REAL "trick".

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 02:57 PM

There are several ways to cook Lobsters. My way is to hypnotize them before you dump them into boiling water.
Another way, Lazy mans lobster; break several eggs into a skillet, put a Lobster into the skillet among the eggs, cover it, turn up the heat, and the Lobster scrambles the eggs.

The most humane way, don't use water, use booze; cheap wine will do. Pour a bottle into a pot, put the lobster into the wine and turn the heat up. By the time that wine boils, that Lobster couldn't care less.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: Becca72
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 11:05 AM

Gnu, what did Mum think of the Morse method?

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 10:09 AM

Guess what I had for supper last eve and for brekky. Them two bugs was bigguns! Still got a small munch and one body.

Subject: RE: BS: LOBSTAH!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM

... and I am told Newberg is a good recipe too; but I don't recall ever having tried it.