How do you teach someone to sing who...

Subject: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 08:43 PM

...hasn't ever sung a lick???

Okay, this is somewhat convoluted but I gotta a call from this guy about 3 months ago... He's recently retired and usoing his retirement to learn new stuff... Great...

Her has built a primitive instrument (like I play) and I have taught him (kinda) how to play it...

Now he wants me to teach him how to play and sing a blues song...

I mean, when I was growing up I sang along with every song out there, TV commercials, church, anything...

I don't think this guy has even sung anything...

I am at a loss...

B~

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 09:34 PM

Maybe, but the point is: Direct him to a song because here he's at a loss. MJH or Big Bill B. Direct him there; part of what made them connect so much was and is their ability to take difficult things and make them simple. Then tell him to quit bugging you.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 09:46 PM

I'm a sucker so the second idea ain't gonna work...

Big Bill Bronzy??? Yeah...

Thanks...

B~

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 09:56 PM

Don't waste your time.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 09:57 PM

Bobert, I am going to be facing that same problem.

I've been working with a 53-year-old man who has never played anything but wants to learn to play the guitar so he "can sing to the Lord'.

He is making strides on the playing, but so far, I have not been able, far from getting him to make so much as a peep, getting even an acknowledgement that he knows a song, any song. I have NOT made an issue of it, of course or even remarked on it. But I have thrown out the occasional well known name of a singer and he has never picked up on it.

Except for one time: in demonstrating something I sang a bit of one of my songs for him, and he marveled, "That's as good as Dolly Parton!" hahahhaha I despair for him. :)

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 12:25 AM

You might try a family songbook, kinda like the Readers Digest one, or even Rise Up Singing.

Go through it together (with a couple of beers, maybe) and sing everything that you know and see if he joins in on anything.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: sciencegeek
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 08:58 AM

if this guy really wants to try... don't discourage him.

Plenty of kids had their desire to sing or express themselves squashed like a bug by the adults in their lives... so you don't know what his "problem" is.

I used to be a riding instructor - among many other things- and spent quite a few lessons on one adult pupil who never progressed beyond sitting like a sack of potatoes in the saddle. I finally told him that I couldn't keep taking his money if he didn't at least make some effort to learn... and it still bugs me 35 years later.

Bob... I assume you sing & play, which is why he has asked you for instruction. have him hum along to your playing... he needs to make some noise and get the feel for timing & phrasing. If he can do that, then he can move on to lyrics. If not, well at you both tried.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:12 AM

I'd start with a simple experiment. Play a note and see if he can hum it. Then play a note slightly above or below that one. If he can hum it you may have a chance. However, if he is unable to tell the difference between the two it's unlikely that he will ever be able to carry a tune.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 09:46 AM

He told me that he has been trying to sing but his wife says it sounds more like he is talking...

One problem I'm going to have is that the style of blues I do requires a strong mix of Southern black dialect and it's my style of music that he says he wants to learn...

This makes it tougher than teaching him just basic folks music and going from there but I might just have to give him an old folk song to work on first just to see if he can sing...

B

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 10:16 AM

Speak to the patient in a Southern black dialect as much as possible ; gradually introduce a little whoopin' an' hollerin'. Get him to try it, then get him to speak along with the words of a song as you sing .

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Highlandman
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 10:30 AM

Try some silly old call/response ditties like "Oh You Can't Get To Heaven..."
Short phrases, repetition... you will eventually see if he's hearing it. Often people who have never sung can hear just fine, but have no feel for how to produce the intended sound with their vocal apparatus.
Beer may help, too.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 10:34 AM

Ask him to make a list of performers he likes.

From those performers, choose songs that are easy to sing, that don't have a huge range or special effects. Gentle songs, easy on the voice and the ear.

Tell him to sing along with those songs while in the shower, in the car or cleaning up the kitchen. Don't bellow, don't grind, just get the voice going. then sing without the recordings

After that, let nature take its course.

Sentimental Journey
When I lost my baby, I almost lost my mind
You are my sunshine
Tumbling tumbleweeds

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 11:14 AM

He told me that he has been trying to sing but his wife says it sounds more like he is talking...

There's lots of "talkin' blues" songs ... to get him started.

The description from his wife sounds as if he's never learned to use a "singing voice," that needs to open up the throat and use the lungs for resonance, and he's just "talkin' from his head." It might be that he'd benefit from a "singing coach" that knows how to teach the technique; but you might be able to get him started by encouraging him to "beller it out" (make him practice some yelling?) and/or try a little "yodeling" to force him to use more "body effect" than he's learned to put into it.

There really is a big difference between changing pitches while talkin' and actually "singing" the same words at the same pitches. It comes fairly naturally to those who learn it while younger, but at his age it may take some lung rehabilitation (he's an elderly punk kid type?) to get him going as a singer.

John

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 12:01 PM

I'm not convinced anybody can be "taught" to sing, though I have spent a great many years helping people to learn and in the process, learning myself.
The most effective way we found was chaired (controlled) group sessions with everybody (gently) giving an opinion on the (victim's!!) singing, then making suggestions on how it might be improved, coupled with technical (voice and relaxation) exercises.
It depends entirely on the singer's willingness to have their singing scrutinised and discussed.
By far, the most effective way to learn is to listen and, until you find your own voice, to imitate (but not in public performance - that way lies madness!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 12:51 PM

Helping others to sing is a indeed a great way of learning yourself. So you get twice the benefit.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,John Routledge
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 12:52 PM

above is me.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM

in my opinion a good idea for starting is to find songs that he might like with a small range, then find out his range ..is he a baritone or tenor etc, then get an instrument and get him to sing certain notes to find his aptitude.
then do breathing exercises, to develop technique for breathing and diaphragm. then try and develop his confidence.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Highlandman
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 01:33 PM

Something I've done with young people who don't get the feel of the "singing" voice vs the "talking voice" is to get them to be downright silly. Imitate Darth Vader. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..."
Do your best impression of a corny opera singer. Or Barbara Streisand. The more over the top, the better.

The idea is to get them to realize they have more control of their vocal apparatus than they are accustomed to using.

-Glenn

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 03:28 PM

"in my opinion a good idea for starting is to find songs that he might like"
Not sure about that Dick - it really depends on how much work the singer has to put in to be proficient - if you use a song you like, it's not difficult to ruin it for yourself by over-using it as a practice piece.
We selected various pieces for various jobs
Johnny Todd - children's song - learning to handle a basic tune.
"Tis Ended" - Der Ring des Nibelungen, - unusual (for accuracy in large intervals.
"By Evil Craft" (poor old Wagner again) Der Ring des Nibelungen - unusual (particularly small) intervals
"First we polish off some batches" from Gilbert and Sullivan's The Gondoliers for speed and articulation.
Rocky Road to Dublin (1 verse in 1 breath) Breath control.
Tail Toddle Port a beul (mouth music) - speed, articulation and breath control
A couple of these you might choose to sing for pleasure, but (IMO) these are display pieces to show off your skill rather than to be interpreted.
My three-halfpence anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 03:30 PM

"The idea is to get them to realize they have more control of their vocal apparatus than they are accustomed to using."
This really is what it's all about - control of your vocal apparatus so that you can take it to wherever you choose.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 03:33 PM

Ebbie, your job's the easy one. Tell him, the Lord has called you- sing like an angel or it's the other place for you. Six months, and he'll be a fine singer (or an atheist).

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,John Routledge
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 03:51 PM

Jim Carroll's last post reminded of this.

Peter Taylor a voice coach at the last Dungworth Singing Weekend said

"I will not teach you to sing how I think you should sing but will teach you the techniques you need to sing as you want to sing"

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 04:23 PM

*g*, Guest/Jack Sprocket.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 04:45 PM

jim you misquoted me i said.

in my opinion a good idea for starting is to find songs that he might like with a small range", then i said
"then find out his range ..is he a baritone or tenor etc, then get an instrument and get him to sing certain notes to find his aptitude.
then do breathing exercises, to develop technique for breathing and diaphragm. then try and develop his confidence."
it is in my opinion useless to ask someone to sing something they do not like, however the really important part of my comment was "with a small range"
why?
because it is about developing confidence, so you start with something not too demanding.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Joybell
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 04:59 PM

Over the years I've encountered lots of people with very fixed ideas of what they wanted to do. One man I remember wanted to learn to play a 5 string banjo in any key so that he could come in after a bunch of party-drunks had started a song and accompany them. I tried to have him switch to guitar or keyboard. I tried to get him to start the friends off in a key he wanted. He thought that would be impolite. He wouldn't give up either. I finally passed him on to True-love. Went away eventually.
That story's no help Bobert is it? I just thought you might enjoy a diversion.
Good luck.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 07:41 PM

I've given that some thought, J-Bell...

I may have taken on an impossible task...

But, hey... He ain't paying me so he can't demand his money back...

B;~)

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 11:35 PM

A farcical event I once witnessed:

An acquaintance was trying to play behind this young guy on a mando.

He stops, and says, puzzled:
What key are you playing in??

Young guy:
Not any, really.

Acquaintance:
I mean, what chords are you playing?

Young guy:
Just regular, I guess.

This may be the kind of situation you and I may find ourselves in, Beaubear. :)

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 03:12 AM

"jim you misquoted me"
Sorry Dick, not intentionally - just wanted to warn people away from a mistake I, and I've no doubt thousands of others have made by ruining good songs for themselves by using them as practice pieces.
I honestly believe that anybody can sing unless they have something actually wrong with their vocal equipment - extremely rare.
I also believe that it is relatively simple to get people started on the road to singing by getting them to listen to and explore their own voices.
It doesn't mean they are going to turn unto Muddy Waters or Joe Heaney, but with work I think most people can bring their voices up to a basic standard where they can derive pleasure from giving voice.
In the late 1970s Pat and I embarked on a six-month series of interviews with Ewan MacColl, getting him to talk about his approach to singing - very enlightening.
We put to him the popular idea that by working on a song you take the pleasure out of it - this was his reply.
Make's sense to me.
Jim Carroll

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 04:17 AM

There can be another element at work in a person who doesn't- can't- sing. It used frequently to be true for me that I *couldn't* sing at a particular moment, in a particular setting, or in front of certain people. I felt an inability to bring out even a sound, in my belly, in my very *gut*.

This was true for me even though I love to sing and it is still sometimes true.

I finally came up with a couple of sure-fire songs that I could sing any time so it seldom happens nowadays. At least in a jam session or singaround. However it is still true for me in choral singing or in what one might call a congregational group.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 07:27 PM

Well, my first Singing 001 (non credit, remedial) class is over and I thought it went okay...

I figured that he only needed a couple verses of a song to work on so we sang together and if he didn't get a part right I'd just go back and we'd do a re-do... And if it still was off we'd re-do it again... He is working hard but kinda long in the tooth to have never really sung...

Then he taped me doing those two verses and will work with the tape...

We'll see??? His geetar playing is coming along... He might make it???

B~

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bert
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 07:39 PM

It is difficult to advise really because we can't hear him. If he wants to sing before an audience you might want to include some microphone technique. Also, he will need to learn how to sing TO the audience and connect with them.

Even if he doesn't sing well, if he can connect with the audience he will do fine.

When push comes to shove though, you are the only person in a position to know what he needs.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 07:52 PM

He's like 60 years old and never so much as beat on his dashboard to a rock 'n roll song... But he is determined... He's like a blank canvas... He doesn't mind me pushing him which is good... He doesn't get offended when he gets something wrong and I do the re-do... And another re-do... He seems to appreciate it... Me??? I couldn't take it but he thanks me for pushing him...

B~

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 11:41 PM

Sounds good, Bobert. the important thing is that you are trying something, instead of waiting indefinitely for the perfect approach.

"He told me that he has been trying to sing but his wife says it sounds more like he is talking..."

Did you ever see 'The Music Man'? In it, Professor Harold Hill says, "Singing is sustained talking." In other words, say a word, and hold it out for a long time. You'll find you are singing.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:21 AM

The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
spot on, jim, master technique,so that one is confident with singing breathing etc , then think about interpretation of the song.
musicans practise their instrument the voice is just another instrument, one of the most sensible things Ewan advocated, was vocal warm up exercises.
but here is something else diet, the condition of the voice can be improved by avoiding certain drinks/ foods, i found it interesting that mick jagger at glastonbury, sprayed his vocal chords with manuka honey and herbs, and limited his talking to an hour, I would be interested to know what herbs he used to keep his voice in good condition, it certainly wouldnt have been smoking marijuana., that is very bad for the voice

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 11:31 AM

Yes, smokin' pot is bad for the voice... Fortunately for me it only effects my voice when I am actually doing it and not the next night... Well, so far so good...

B;~

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:30 PM

smoking anything affects the voice badly, my advice is give it up.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:35 PM

NO!!!

B;~)

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM

There are some Learn to sing programmes on the internet where, with a microphone, you have to match up tp a sound curve. may be of interest if he is into IT

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:51 PM

I sometimes encountered pupils who seemed to be 'tone deaf'. One in fact had a hearing problem ('glue ear', which was rectified with grommets) but the others seemed not to recognise what they were producing didn't correspond to what was required. I tried getting them merely to 'sing high' (on any note, but just high) and then 'low' on any note. Surprisingly they found even this difficult, but eventually they began to 'hear' themselves, and to realise that notes had pitch. Gradually I narrowed down the range, for example a 'medium' note in between the high and low. The boys enjoyed singing out football teams' names on one note. The whole success lay in removing any stigma or embarrassment and getting them to sing loudly with no reticence. (If I liked their efforts, everyone got a sweet.) I wonder if your friend wrote a short song expressing something he feels deeply, the emotion and interest would help him to sing?

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM

Fortunately, people who are 'tone deaf' like that are pretty rare. Some of them can be helped, apparently. Some can't.

Our church choir had a man like that, who didn't get any better even after individual tutoring from the director. We all prayed for him, and our prayers were answered - he got offered a job out in New Mexico.

======
I don't think people really are 'tone deaf.' They can hear tones, they just can't duplicate them with their vocal apparatus. If a person really were tone deaf, he couldn't tell the barking of a dog from the thudding of a hammer. I doubt is there's anybody like that.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 09:49 AM

I agree, leeneia, but in those days, that was the term for people who had trouble pitching a note. We have two in our Church like that. You made me laugh when you wrote " our prayers were answered - he got offered a job out in new Mexico." One of our two is a quiet little woman and luckily she sings very softly. But the other, a lovely man, roars out the hymns with enormous gusto, but all on the wrong notes. If he sits near me, I find he draws my singing off-tune too, and I get the giggles. We sang "I Will Raise Him Up" a couple of weeks ago, and the chorus has three lines, each one getting higher. By the third line, he was bellowing like a bull and I was convulsed. The more you're ashamed of giggling in church, the more you can't control it. The Vicar was giving me black looks. But the main thing was that Peter (the bellower) was enjoying the hymn and praising God in his own fashion.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 10:14 AM

I think you might have had the right idea right at the start - advertising jingles.

short and easy to remember, easy to sing or whistle.

As he has some years on his back trying to recall some old ones might divert any nerves about the actual singing of the words.

If you can get him to actually start producing notes, fine, or you might only be able to use the rhythm of the phrases.

It will at least make a start.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:49 AM

Bobert, this article may be of interest: "Can the tone deaf learn to sing?"

"...Beginners are taught how to change the pitch of the notes they sing, the same way their voices go up and down when talking.

"A lot of the exercises we do with absolute beginners are speaking, not singing. The larynx is moveable and they can pitch their voices. We teach them to co-ordinate what they hear with the sound they make."

There are also rhythm games, breathing and posture exercises...."

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:48 AM

maybe the best start is to join a community choir and then adapt a song he has learnt and that he likes

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 11:12 AM

My man has still not peeped, but he is coming along on the guitar. I have now nudged him into appreciating the sounds of a chord and his whole face lights up when he produces a beautiful one.

He'll get there. :)

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:52 PM

Only one poster has mentioned the biggest barrier for many people: lack of confidence (Good Soldier Schweik). Some years ago, I participated in a workshop given by an excellent singer "for people who can't sing". Only gradually did it emerge that many of the participants could sing, in at least one case outstandingly well- but that most of them lacked the confidence to do so in public. And that if they did try to perform, their tremors overcame their singing voice, at least in their own estimation.

There are of course those with the inverse affliction.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: maeve
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:15 PM

Post at 11 Jul 13 - 05:49 AM was mine without my cookie. Sorry.

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: HuwG
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:33 PM

A newbie started to sing at a session I recently attended. He began mudering a Richard Thompson number in a low growl in G. Some helpful attendees stopped him and said "You need to capo up to C or D". He did, and started playing the guitar half an octave higher, but dropped his voice to half an octave lower. Oh no...

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 06:08 AM

confidence , and also understanding that they might have limitations as a singer[for a while anyway], they might need guiding as regards choice of songs, songs with a small range or certain types of songs that their voice might be suited to, eg.. blues , shanties or some other

Subject: RE: How do you teach someone to sing who...
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 08:35 AM

And include some fun songs in your lessons.