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Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'

Lighter 24 Jul 13 - 03:47 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Jul 13 - 03:57 PM
Lighter 24 Jul 13 - 04:42 PM
Reinhard 25 Jul 13 - 04:12 AM
Lighter 27 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,John Foxen 27 Jul 13 - 09:55 AM
Lighter 29 Jul 13 - 03:11 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Jul 13 - 05:32 PM
Lighter 29 Jul 13 - 07:09 PM
dick greenhaus 29 Jul 13 - 09:00 PM
Lighter 29 Jul 13 - 09:10 PM
Reinhard 29 Jul 13 - 11:47 PM
Reinhard 30 Jul 13 - 02:13 AM
Lighter 30 Jul 13 - 08:35 AM
Reinhard 30 Jul 13 - 01:35 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Jul 13 - 02:59 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Jul 13 - 03:56 PM
Lighter 30 Jul 13 - 05:32 PM
Reinhard 31 Jul 13 - 03:49 AM
Steve Gardham 01 Aug 13 - 04:50 PM
Lighter 01 Aug 13 - 06:29 PM
Reinhard 11 Jan 14 - 10:56 AM
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Subject: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 03:47 PM

Can anyone provide Lloyd's liner notes for this song from "The Foggy Dew and Other Traditional English Love Songs"?

It's a version of "Seventeen Come Sunday," but I'd like to know more.

Lloyd touch?: "Her teeth they shone like silver."

(Braces, obviously. But cf. the more famously shiny teeth in Lloyd's "Reynardine.")


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 03:57 PM

Hi Jon,
I haven't got it but I was just looking for the liner notes to Leviathan (couldn't find my copy) and found them easily online by Googling so what you want might be there. He seems to have had a poetic hand in the songs on Leviathan as well. Are you writing a book on his poetry?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 04:42 PM

Good suggestion, Steve, but I haven't found anything.

Not writing a book, but somebody else should certainly do an article.

I haven't yet seen the recent biography.

My impression is that the "Leviathan" songs are heavily indebted to him - even more so than the contents of the earlier "Thar She Blows!"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Reinhard
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 04:12 AM

The liner notes of Leviathan are on Mainly Norfolk (where Steve probably found them), but I don't have the Foggy Dew LP, and the CD reissue doesn't have any notes, so I couldn't put them online, sorry.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM

Thanks, Reinhard.

*Somebody* out there must have the notes.

But who?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 09:55 AM

I only have the MP3 download version without notes but that line stood out for me as well.
It obviously did the same for Sid Kipper who parodied it in his "I'm Not 16 Till Sunday".
"Her skirt was tight
Her stockings white
Her suspenders shone like silver."
I'd certainly be interested in knowing a bit more about Bert's version.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 03:11 PM

Me too.

Still waiting....

Dumty dumty dumty dum.....

Well, we know it isn't the Clancy-Makem version, learned from Sarah Makem.

Or David Hammond's version. Or Steeleye's.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:32 PM

Jon,
On the broadside titled 'The Maid and Soldier' which = 17 come Sunday the phrase runs 'Her shoes were black, her stockings white, The buckles were of silver'. Perhaps her teeth were buckled!

If you can quote the full verse I might be able to help further. I have at least 85 versions and checking them all would be tedious, and that's without the related 'Brewer Laddie' versions.

Quick glance at half a dozen oral versions shows 'buckles' in all and pretty standard texts showing the influence of the broadsides (numerous printings) which is probably why I haven't done a close study.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 07:09 PM

Steve, thanks, it isn't so much the "teeth" I care about as the entire text and tune, which I'll post for you soon.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 09:00 PM

JOn-
Thanx (in advance) for posting the words. THese discussions about song versions that that I'm not familar with can be most distressing.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 09:10 PM

About two minutes ago I uploaded the words after 20-odd minutes of meticulous reanscribing.

They immediately vanished.

The biggest differences between Lloyd's version and those I'm familiar with is the "teeth" business, the phrase "the moon shone bright as dawning" (sounds also like Lloyd) and the final stanza, which includes "Let this be a warning!" and ends with an unfolklike, "And I'll be back for your mummy in the morning!"

The refrain is,

"With a toorin ah,
Fol the diddle ah,
Starva lump all the dah dee o."

The first two lines of each stanza repeat.

Steve, the broadside you mention seems not to be online. Could you post it?

I hope you have better luck than I did.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Reinhard
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 11:47 PM

Lighter, my transcription is on Mainly Norfolk (at the end of the page). I did it on the last weekend too...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Reinhard
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 02:13 AM

The Lied, Art Song, and Choral Text Archive has this:

Seventeen come Sunday

As I walked out one May morning, one May mornin so early,
As I walked out one May morning, one May morning so early,
I overtook a handsome maid, just as the sun was a-rising,
Rue dal day,
Fol diddle day,
Right fol diddle doddle dido.

Her shoes were bright, her stockings white, and her buckles shone like silver,
Her shoes were bright, her stockings white, and her buckles shone like silver,
She had a black and a rolling eye, and her hair hung down her shoulder,
Rue dal day,
Fol diddle day,
Right fol diddle doddle dido.

"Where are you going, my pretty maid, where are you going, my honey,
Where are you going, my pretty maid, where are you going, my honey?"
She answered me right cheerfully, "On an errand for my mammy."
Rue dal day,
Fol diddle day,
Right fol diddle doddle dido.

"How old are you, my pretty maid, how old are you, my honey,
How old are you, my pretty maid, how old are you, my honey?"
She answered me right cheerfully, "I am seventeen come Sunday,"
Rue dal day,
Fol diddle day,
Right fol diddle doddle dido.

And now she's with her soldier lad, where the wars they are alarming,
And now she's with her soldier lad, where the wars they are alarming,
And the drum and fife are her delight, and a merry man in the morning,
Rue dal day,
Fol diddle day,
Right fol diddle doddle dido.


Authorship

    * from Folk poetry or song tradition (Volkslieder) , title unknown [setting text not yet verified]

Musical settings (art songs, Lieder, mélodies, (etc.), choral pieces, and other vocal works set to this text), listed by composer (not necessarily exhaustive)

    * by George Sainton Kaye Butterworth (1885 - 1916) , "Seventeen come Sunday", from Folk Songs from Sussex, no. 8.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:35 AM

Thanks for the transcription, Reinhard.

Perhaps Lloyd recorded two versions. The one I have uses the first stanza you give under the Steeleye version, and the lines repeat as they do in "Seventeen Come Sunday."

The questioned word in stanza 7 is definitely "gal." ("Gave a thrilling cry" sounds like Lloyd too.)

I'm interested in the album note just to see if Lloyd names a source.

I bet he doesn't.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Reinhard
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 01:35 PM

Sorry Lighter that was my fault; I switched the two first verses in the table when I added Lloyd's version.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 02:59 PM

Jon.
A quick synopsis of the broadside versions:

Earliest (A) appear to be London printed c1830 Pitts, Catnach, Jennings, Batchelor with title '(The) Maid and Soldier' FL 'As I did walk along the street.' 10 sts+refrain

The others seem to be offshoots of this group.

(B) London later..J Paul, C Paul, Such, Disley, Hodges, titled 'Seventeen Come Sunday' 9 sts+refrain FL 'As I walked out one May morning.' Fortey (and later Sanderson of Edinburgh) have same title & FL with the 10 sts+refrain

(C) Yorkshire, later, Dickinson of York, and Forth of Pocklington have title 'Soldier and The Fair Maid' with the 9 sts+refrain and As I walked out FL.

(D) Lancashire, later, Bebbington/Pearson of Manchester, McCall of Liverpool and Harkness of Preston are as (A) with title 'I'm Seventeen Come Sunday'.

The (A) text as requested as printed by Batchelor is available online at Bodleian, Harding B25 (1185). If you have problems accessing this I'll scan one of my copies and email it to you.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 03:56 PM

Jon
I bet someone on Tradsong or Ballad List has a copy of the album. If it's an early one not many albums had background notes then. I have some Bert 78s somewhere.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 05:32 PM

Thanks, Steve. I found the Bodleian copy. Most interesting: frisky yet discreet.

Since, as Reinhard says, the CD reissue has no notes, perhaps the 1956 LP lacked them as well. But if so it would be the first Lloyd LP (and Tradition LP) that I know of to be so remiss.

Good suggestion about the Ballad List.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Reinhard
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 03:49 AM

I have never seen any Essential Media CD reissue of a Tradition LP that has any sleeve notes; the four-page booklet seems to always consists of
the original album cover with an additional red bar and Essential logo on the front page, a track list on the last page and advertisement on the inside.

I don't doubt that Lloyd's elusive original LP has its wealth of liner notes.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 04:50 PM

Jon,
I've had a trawl through most versions, British and American, and I can't find anything like Bert's idiosyncratic additions. Only buckles are silver where the verse occurs and as for coming back for her mummy, well......and no starvalumps, probably some obscure Australian creature he encountered in the outback.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 06:29 PM

Thanks, Steve. It's all so annoying....

For us pedants.

(I'd have guessed the "starvalump" was genuine though, just from its oddness.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lloyd's 'Soldier and the Maid'
From: Reinhard
Date: 11 Jan 14 - 10:56 AM

I just found on Proper Music's website an announcement of A.L. Lloyd's CD "Turtle Dove: England & Her Tradtitional Songs Vol. 2" which will be released by Fellside on February 10. It is basically a re-issue of "The Foggy Dew" plus three more songs. We cat but hope -- regarding Fellside's usual high quality -- that this one will have the liner notes Lighter was asking for at the beginning of this thread.


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