BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: LadyJean
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 11:17 PM

I saw a similar exhibition outside Madame Tussaud's, when I was in London.

I did puppet shows, at one time, but not Punch and Judy. I didn't think I could deal with a swazzle.

I also did talks for children on puppets and their history. Try explaining a swazzle to a deaf child. I did once.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 05:42 PM

And let's hope against hope that those sausages are vegetarian, not pork, or all the Jews, Hindus and Muslims (not to mention Animal Rights Activists) will be up in arms. And should we be making fun of a poor chap with a deformed spine?

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 11:30 AM

Hey Rap, people are fascinated by our pet crocodile. Two of the FAQ's about him are "does he eat sausages?" and "where does he sleep?".

The answers are "yes, he loves them, especially sausage dogs" and "anywhere he likes", respectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

Rapparee, we are all witnesses that Judy started the beating, so Mr. Punch was Standing His Ground. Same with devil, ghost, etc. As for the policeman, uh ... it must have been an accident, or the policeman failed to utter the correct formula. Anyway, Punch is a generous supporter of the community. In the US, he would be elected president. "That's the way to do it!" - "Yes, we can!" - ...

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 10:22 AM

I am frankly disgusted with the violence rampant in the UK. Beating your wife and then a policeman -- what sort of lessons does this teach the children? That wife beating is permissible? That beating up the police is socially acceptable?

In the US we punish people who do either or both.

Disgusting behavior. And to keep an exotic animal such as a crocodile as a pet should get the keepers arrested and the animal turned over a zoo or the RSPCA.

I thought of revisiting the UK, but such a visit would condone these acts, which are abhorrent to any civilized culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Manuel
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 10:09 AM

Very well said , Eliza. I fell for Debussy's "Golliwog Cakewalk" from the first time I heard it as an innocent teenager. Bless the heart of the dear clergyman who introduced me to it and who now lives in retirement in your country (and his). It would pain me to the bottom of my heart if anyone ever suggested that, because of our love for that most delightful composition, we are inclined to racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:11 PM

We played Cowboys and Indians daily as children. I always thought it odd that 'Indians' ran around clapping their hands to their mouths constantly making a whooping sound, while 'Cowboys' appeared to run around slapping their own behinds. (meant to be their imaginary horse I suppose) Yet later as Guides we sang Land of the Silver Birch which IMO is a hauntingly beautiful hymn to the Native American and his skills at living with Nature. We were no more racist then than now. And I must have watched literally hundreds of Punch and Judy shows, yet I don't think men should thwack their wives and babies with a long stick in real life. The PC/ Thought Police Brigade don't give us credit for distinguishing between a bit of traditional fun and insulting, nasty racism. They can go and boil their heads as far as I'm concerned!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:56 PM

Drift ~~ But Eliza's very cogent post just above has reminded me of the "Native American" I read of recently asked by the journalist how he would like to be referred to ~~ "Native American"? or "Original American"? or "Indigenous Tribesman"? or what?

'Why, 'Red Indian' of course," he replied.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:42 PM

Well said, DtG! People nowadays are far too ultra-sensitive and see Political Incorrectness and incipient insults round every corner. And as you say, probably the folk they're trying to 'protect' aren't in the least bothered. Soon we'll all be frozen in fear at the thought of doing anything at all, and will stand like cloned robots, restricted and hedged about by no end of warnings. Look at the fiasco about cuddling little children in nursery daycare if they fall over. The staff are told not to touch them. And that unfortunate dinner lady who allowed a 7yr old Muslim child to select a gammon meal. Out she went forthwith. Punch is 'too violent', The Famous Five 'too middle class', golliwogs 'racially insulting', the Bacup Coconut Dancers horrifyingly 'colonial', almost any kind of jokes are 'unacceptable'. What sort of a world is this we're moving towards? Bland, humourless, cold and 'correct'. Makes me shudder! Bring on lots more Violence On The Beach!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:24 AM

People can, and do, take offense at anything including Punch and Judy, Golliwogs and, probably, Gnomes :-) Are they over-reacting to some imagined slight? Is there a genuine background offense (pun intended) of some sort? Who knows! All I can say is that we need to exercise reasonable care to not offend but don't believe every so called insult is genuine. Often the people who scream about these things are working to their own hidden agendas while those who are supposed to have been offended are usually quite relaxed about it.

Sorry for following the drift rather than the thread.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:05 AM

My daughter now 44 yrs old... slept her early years with a large golliwog.... I didn't see any problem then and I really don't see a problem now!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:40 AM

It's strange isn't it Mo? It costs no more to manufacture black dolls than white ones. Sadly, my husband says that to an African, 'white is posh, luxurious and successful.' So a black doll would represent lower status and more poverty. I expect the little girls know it's a Toubab (white) doll, as they see white people about. They all wish they WERE white, and as young women they plaster themselves with a smelly product which turns their skin a horrible pale orange colour. My husband finds me eccentric to say the least when I often tell him I'd love to be black, with that beautiful elegance of shape and posture that African women have. I don't think that golliwogs have ever been seen in Africa, and I don't suppose Mr Punch has either!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:23 AM

Does an African child see a white doll as representing a white baby (or teenager if it's Barbie)?
Or is it some fictional nursery character like the teddy bear and the golliwog which I never thought of as representing an animal and a person.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 02:53 PM

I rather like "Momma"! but I answer to anything. Grishka, thank you for your link. Doesn't Kasperle look just like Mr Punch? Our church Crib at Christmas was made by an old lady and all the figures are about a foot high and exquisitely knitted. The three wise men include Caspar of course. My husband (despite being a Muslim) loves to come and see the Crib and enjoys especially the magi with their (knitted) camels. He also likes golliwogs (strangely they've appeared again on retro products such as metal trays in Roys in Wroxham) but I don't think he knows much about their history. He tells me that dolls for example are always white in the shops in Abidjan, there aren't any black ones, and moreover, an African child would be a bit taken aback to be given a black doll!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 01:15 PM

Those who are disappointed of today's popular entertainment can take for a consolation that it has not been much subtler in former times. In 200 years, Neg Dupree (LittleHawk's favourite "oik") may be reenacted and cherished as a holy tradition.

Eliza, puppet plays related to Pulcinella are known in many European countries. "Kasperle" puppets are a staple of childrens' toy chests in German-speaking regions. There are many ways to do it, professionally or amateurish, by parents or even older children for their younger siblings. Story lines can be impromptu or found in books.

From this point of view, the largely ritualized P&J story is a bit narrow, though present-day performers do their best to vary it. This fixed tradition is also the reason for the preserved violence mentioned in thread title - other European traditions have started centuries earlier to "civilize" their Pulcinella characters. "Kasperle" is usually childish but essentially a real hero, quite to Mr. Ibrahina's taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:57 AM

Of course, if people are offended by gollies, then maybe they should be banned, they were just a toy in our house, not representing anything or anyone. It's only now, and looking at their history that I see why some are against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:53 AM

Alright, so it's 'traditional' and anything traditional should be revered and preserved. But I disliked it as a child and I don't see anything funny in it now.

All this fuss about banning poor harmless Golliwogs, but P&J is applauded

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 07:30 AM

Clarification!

Codman's

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 04:08 AM

MOMMA???
WTF?? I hate bloody iPad predictive text! Shoulda bin 'Mmmmm'!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 04:07 AM

Momma, doesn't have the same ring as "That's the way to do it!" Does it? (Or maybe it does, to a German!). :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 05:33 PM

Goodness DMcG! I suppose Punch swazzled away in German? "Das ist wie man macht's!" Somehow that feels rather sinister!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 02:07 PM

I was taken unawares some years ago at a fete in Celle, Germany, to come across a Punch and Judy show. While definitely German (in terms of notice boards etc), it seemed to be virtually identical to the versions I know from England. I knew of the links to commedia dell'arte, but this was unexpected.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 01:16 PM

Ah, well ...

Anyhow, Drogba is in the doghouse in this house right now, because he scored the two goals by which Galetaseray from Istanbul beat Arsenal at the Emirates today ~~

I mean, da noive of da guy!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 12:50 PM

That's very kind of you Michael. It seems there are quite a few African players in Premier League football. Ibrahima says his favourite player of all time and big hero is...Wayne Rooney!!! Yuk!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 12:42 PM

Well ~~ just tell him from me, Eliza ~~ UP THE GUNNERS!

And wiki gives me following info which should interest him ~~

"There are currently two African players in the Arsenal first team. Alexandre Song is a defensive midfielder who comes from Cameroon, and Emmanuel Eboue is a utility right-sided player from the Ivory Coast.

Notable former Arsenal players who are African include Emmanuel Adebayor, Kolo Toure [also Ivorian], Nwankwo Kanu and Lauren."

Best to you both

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 12:00 PM

My husband supports so mny UK teams he's a bit of a traitor really. Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Norwich City, he's got the shirts of all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM

It was indeed an interesting place while we were there, but turned very violent with some unmentionable atrocities in the civil war that occurred soon after. What the situation may be there now I have no idea. We were there over 20 years ago.

Drogba is a name to conjure with in this house, as my wife [not the one mentioned in the last post, who died some years ago, but her 'successor'] is a great Chelsea supporter. I am Arsenal myself; but we contrive to get along without too much bloodshed!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 05:48 AM

I bet that was a fascinating place, Michael. I might try 'West Africa' next time. My husband himself tells people (rather unnecessarily!) "I am an African Man." Funnily enough, if he mentions Didier Drogba, many young men immediately know he's from Cote d'Ivoire.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 05:40 PM

Eliza ~~ As one who has lived briefly in Sierra Leone, where my late wife had a university lectureship at Fourah Bay for a couple of terms & we lived at the top of Mount Aureol on the edge of Freetown, I have found that 'West African' is a fairly specific locator that people get.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 04:05 PM

Mrrzy, I agree with you but sadly we've found that many people have never heard of Ivory Coast, and if I say "My Ivorian husband," they look a bit confused. In our village for example, most people seem to think that Africa is a country, where one speaks 'African'. One chap even said quite kindly. "It's a good job you speak 'African' so you can talk to your husband!"

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 03:30 PM

People just haveno manners these days. (En parlant du loup, Eliza I can't pm you but imho yotter refer to your hubby by country rather than continent, no?)

I have never found violence funny, but that was a great link!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 03:26 PM

It's OK Gnu... When you know about these things all is clear of course..... but not everyone does!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: gnu
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 06:50 AM

I googled Punch & Judy. Now I understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: banjoman
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 06:28 AM

As a kid the highlight of the summer holidays in Liverpool was to go to see Professor Codman's Punch & Judy show on the plateau of St Georges Hall.
I think the name Codman is much revered in Punch & Judy circles.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 06:22 AM

LOL. Great fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 05:52 AM

Are the Pierotters still on the go? They did a residency on the North Pier in Blackpool a few years ago & amazed and delighted everyone who saw them with their artful & anarchic revival of the Pierrot tradition. Well worth looking out for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w7hHaKVkrA

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 04:52 AM

Will Fly, so nice to know I'm not alone in my obsesssion with these things! Panto of course is another of my passions, which my husband also adores. I remember the Pierrot show on the beach at Westgate-on-Sea when I was very small; people dressed in black and white pierrot costumes singing and dancing on a wooden stage. Here in Norfolk, the Professor at the Norfolk Show always introduces something topical into the Punch and Judy. One year it was Herbie Hide the boxer having a fight with a ghost! I have a heavy iron doorstop of Mr Punch picking his nose.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 04:31 AM

You haven't 'passed out' as a P&J professor until you've swallowed your first swozzle by mistake (it's kept in the roof of the mouth) and then retrieved it later... This was told to me by London showman Professor Alexander.

I have a reasonably large collection of books and other material on Punch and Judy which, like Eliza, I also adore. The best ones - like good panto - use traditional material interspersed with cutting edge jokes for the adults. Swanage, Weymouth, Hayling Island - all beaches with sand, by the way - bring back P&J memories galore.

I also have memories of the Brighton showman, 'Sergeant Stone', who used to do a children's show on Brighton beach during the day and a hilariously filthy adult show in the 'Barley Mow' in Kemptown in the evning...

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 03:41 AM

It is indeed the dog. And it is, of course, a truncheon rather than a baton. This is traditional entertainment after all :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 12:55 AM

Well done, GS ~~

beautifully timed Punchline...

~M~

That's the way to do it! That's the way to do it!...

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 02:25 PM

My African husband was absolutely rivetted the first time he saw Punch. He kept turning to me and saying "This man is very very bad. He is very very VERY bad!" Being African, he doesn't always get our sense of humour here, and couldn't understand why children were allowed to watch the 'violence' or why everyone called out at the puppets. He had so many perfectly logical questions such as ,"Why does this foolish woman leave her baby with this very bad man? Why is a crocodile living in this house? Why is the policeman a fool?" I ended up laughing as much at him as at Mr Punch.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 01:17 PM

My mate John is no professor. .... He isn't even in tune!

The real ones are wonderful I admit. The one near my sisters had me sitting my kids under it and they obviously thought I was getting something out of it.

I was. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 12:44 PM

I'm absolutely obsessed with Punch and Judy and watch it right through whenever I get the chance. What gets me foaming at the mouth is when it's been sanitized, ie no proper bashing, no smacking the baby, no Devil and no hanging at the end. If you sat me down on a nice folding seat to watch Maypole Dancing, Morris Dancing and Punch & Judy, with an enormous whippy vanilla ice cream, I'd probably die of sheer bliss. By the way, the chap doing the swazzling is always known as a Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Musket
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 09:46 AM

Thanks. It didn't look right, hence my questioning it. My mate had one and used to take it to a local folk club. You've not lived till you hear Mr Punch mournfully sing The Glencoe Massacre.....

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 09:46 AM

Brilliant, Mike! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 09:42 AM

Almost right, its a swazzle

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 09:41 AM

Surely it's the dog that runs away with the sausages, not the crocodile?

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Musket
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 09:36 AM

My sister had a flat whilst waiting for their house to sell when they moved to Weymouth. Lovely, on the front, above shops cafes etc and in all its Georgian splendour, including a balcony overlooking the prom.

However... Directly below her on the beach was the Punch and Judy. After 12 hours if intermittent swizzling, (is it a swizzle? I recall its something like that..) you become word perfect and a paid up member of the Mr Punch Abolition Society.......

I thought it was funny mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: severed-head
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 09:07 AM

mmmm.............sausages...

Subject: RE: BS: Extreme Violence on the beach ( UK )
From: Charmion
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 08:28 AM

Punch and Judy at the seaside! What larks!