BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence

Subject: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:06 PM

Bradley Manning today was sentenced to 35 years for letting the world see stuff the American government didn't want seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:07 PM

Here is the tape of the massacre that was at the heart of all this

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: gnu
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:43 PM

I am about to watch (as much as I can of) the link.

However, Manning was guilty as charged and suffered the consequences of his actions. Was he right to do what he did. Hell yeah! Was it right that he was given 35 years? Unfortunately, yes. Can a public outcry change things... you do the math. Sucks? Yeah. But, an oath is an oath and duty bound is duty bound... morals be damned. He swore to that oath, he pays. Right or wrong, he pays.

I salute you, Mr. Manning! You are a hero in my books for doing the right thing. Bless you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:58 PM

Oaths are oath, but moral duty matters far more. Otherwise it ends up as "I was only obeying orders" - and that is never an adequate excuse in the case of war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: gnu
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 07:14 PM

I watched it all. I am sickened. Not by the engagement of the men with machine pistols and an RPG (I dunno the rules of engagement but it seems debatable... at least?) but by the rest of it. Truly disgusting. Killing people who were essentially medics? I know "all is fair" in war but killing people trying to save people?

Thank you Mr. Manning.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: gnu
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 07:20 PM

War crimes involve far more than seen in this video. Yes, it was unacceptable and horrible to watch but I disagree that it was a "war crime". Now, having said my piece, gnightgnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 07:29 PM

"War crimes involve far more than seen in this video"? There isn't actually a lower limit for the body count when it comes to war crimes.

But of course no one is going to be put on trial because of that video. Apart from Bradley Manning of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 08:32 PM

I really don't know what to think, as *I* am not competent to decide whether he did us a favor, or harmed us. He certainly knew the possible consequences of his actions, and did what HE thought was required to follow his conscience.
The sentence seems long compared to others for other types of crimes... I wonder if he'll be considered for parole after a number of years.

In a way, I suppose this judge had no recourse but to find him 'guilty', and the sentence was about half-way between the worst and the minimum.

It certainly has made 'them' think about the possibility that others with security clearance might decide to leak stuff they don't agree with. NO 'secret' can ever be totally safe, so it's best to not HAVE embarrassing secrets.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 08:55 PM

A free jury could of course have acquitted regardless. But of course this was a military trial, and any jury would have been made up of serving soldiers, which was why Manning decided not to put himself in their hands, and opted to do without a jury.

As a piece in The Daily Telegraph put it "A tough judge is still a better option than a military jury picked from a pool of serving soldiers that widely considers Manning to be a traitor."

It would be good to hope that when Obama makes his final set of pardons before he steps down he might use the chance to free Bradley Manning, when it could do him, or his successor for that matter, no political damage. But I doubt if he'll do so. It would require a level of independence he's been shy of using.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 10:55 PM

The news here in the USA is reporting that Manning will get credit for time served (about 3.5 years) and with good behavior could be out in about ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:06 AM

That was so disturbing. Especially the attitude of the soldiers, like they were playing some kind of video game, laughing at their targets and talking about them as if they weren't really human beings.

Let's face it. This is the way soldiers and police behave now. It's scary. And we're supposed to treat them like heroes and thank them for their service. Ugh!

Thanks to Bradley Manning for opening our eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 06:37 AM

The Secret Services are now resorting to manifestly intimidating potential "whistleblowers". However, historic experience shows that martyrs produce proselytes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 08:19 AM

Think of Lt Calley whose men slaughtered around 400 civilians...men, women and children in My Lai ,Vietnam in1968.
He served around a year in house arrest before being released.
What a disgrace that of all the crimes committed by the US military and their civilian overlords someone whose 'crime' was to reveal the awful truth about war crimes gets 35 years in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM

Do not confuse a court-martial board with a jury. There is no such thing as a jury ('twelve good men and true') in any military trial in the US, and never has been.

BTW, Calley's court-martial sentenced him to life in prison. He was (after about 4 years 'house arrest') released by a civilian court review because of alleged judicial errors. His dishonorable discharge and loss of all rank and veteran's benefits stood.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 09:30 AM

Unidentified Guest @ 9.29 was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 09:45 AM

gnu: "Thank you Mr. Manning."

I think Manning would be offended by you. It's Miss Chelsea Manning, to you, sir. It changed its mind, again.

GfS

P.S. I know Firth and entourage would be 'embarrassed' but Manning said 'He CHOSE to do this and WANTED to live his life as a 'woman'.
Must be 'genetics', huh?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:01 AM

Gender dysphoria is a condition in which a person feels there is a mis-match between their biological sex and their gender identity.

Biological sex means the sex that you were born with. It is determined by the presence of sex organs. These are:

    the testes in males
    the ovaries in females

Gender identity is your personal sense of which gender you belong to. For example, if a person sees themselves as female, then their gender identity is female.

For most people, their biological sex and gender identity are the same. However, some people experience a mis-match between them, and this is called gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition. It can be a complex condition, and it affects different people in different ways. It is not a mental illness.

Gender dysphoria has no bearing on a person's sexuality. Just like anyone else, a person with gender dysphoria may be hetrosexual, homosexual, or bisexual.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:07 AM

In the course of the trial it came out that the vast US security machine was unable to crack the cryptography used by Wikileaks to safeguard the anonymity of their sources, which in turn meant that a direct link between Manning's computer in Iraq and WikiLeaks Electronic drop box could not be forensically proved.

Food for thought?

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:07 AM

I think the sentence is a tad extreme... I think 10 years would have been plenty with the 3 years he has already served counting toward the 10 years making him eligible for parole in a year or two...

Some say that the guy is a hero...

Let's get real here... Every day the sun comes up is another day that the US government has to turn back thousands of attempts to hack into our defense department and intelligence agencies... And those attempts are from China, Russia, Iran, etc... The last thing we should be worried about is having people with security clearances hacking into areas they shouldn't...

This is basic common sense...

Of course there are folks here who don't think anything should be a secret and that we should lay everything we do out on the table...

That is basic ignorance and pie-in-the-sky thinking...

Bottom line... Like it or not there are people who want to fuck us up... They work at it every day... We can't stick our heads in the sand and just wish that wasn't a reality... We also can't allow it to happen because we might think because of this or that that we deserve to be fucked up...

Okay, I can think of reason why we should be fucked up but that doesn't mean I want it to happen... I'd rather we just address those issues as adults and not like the Cheney neoc-ons would like us to...

So, I think 10 years is fine...

I also would love to see a Whistle Blowers Protection Act - with teeth - and avenues for whistle blowers to do what they do... I mean, we could have people with very high security clearances be employed to listen to these whistle blowers in strict confidence... Of course, if they don't act on the perceived grievance than the whistle blower could still take his case to a congressman or to someone in the press but at least this would provide potential whistle blowers an opportunity to make a presentation and get feedback...

I doubt if either Manning or Snowden would have taken the routes they chose if we had such a program...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:27 AM

let me help you out, Bobad.........check the topic it is under..top of page

Glad to be of service....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 11:41 AM

Did you look at that tape, Bodad?

One of the sickest thing is that when the guys in the helicopter realised that they had hit children when they shot up that van acting as an ambulance one of them talked about how it was "their fault for bringing kids into a battle" .

There want anything you could call a battle. A battle is where people are firing back. This was a massacre of people standing around, or trying to help the wounded. The only heroes were the people who died trying to take the wounded to hospital while a killer chopper was flying overhead.

And Bradley Manning.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 11:55 AM

The intention of the State Department is to make everyone afraid and support harsh measures against the Bradley Mannings. The fear escalation is not reality but a cynical manipulative device to pad the pockets of those "war lords" who now control our country.

Where is the "transparency" that was promised and part of the basic right of the public?

Bradley Manning is a man, now woman, of conscience. This is in contrast to a deceptive war-mongering taking place within our government that exonerates war criminals.

Today, the US hasn't a moral leg to stand on. The question is begged, who is the real terrorist here?

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 12:07 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity - PM
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:27 AM

let me help you out, Bobad.........check the topic it is under..top of page

Glad to be of service....

GfS


Wow you are really reaching here. I fear you are totally out of your depth on this one - so far out that I will not even try to show you the way - you're on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 12:12 PM

"Did you look at that tape, Bodad?"

Huh? The only post I have made in this thread is in reference to GfS's lack of comprehension on the issue of gender identity.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 12:44 PM

Another diagnosis from the good Doctor Insanity hisself...

"Now you funny, too"...

B:~)

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 01:43 PM

So there are no "state secrets"? There is no information that the United States should not be willing to share with the World,including it's sworn enemies? That attitude is so naïve that it borders on the moronic, and as such is not even worth of discussion, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 02:09 PM

Sorry bodad - I meant Bobert, in response to the post at 10.07.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 03:03 PM

"Gender identity is your personal sense of which gender you belong to. For example, if a person sees themselves as female, then their gender identity is female."


I knew a man who thought he was a parrot.....but he says he's alright now....alright now....alright now....?

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:07 PM

But it's not particularly relevant to the actions that got Manning sentenced.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:24 PM

You know, hauling out tapes of kids getting shot to justify your own bad decision is cheap... That is Talibanish PR...

Manning is no hero... He perhaps could have been had he just taken what he had to a sympathetic congressman or a trusted journalist...

Manning and Snowden used bad judgment... Rather than use the proper channels they chose to make the story as much about them as the information they wanted known...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:25 PM

"But it's not particularly relevant to the actions that got Manning sentenced."

I didn't bring it up - was just trying to educate a poster on the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 05:28 PM

President Obama should pardon Chelsea near the end of his term. If he had a heart he would. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 05:32 PM

Rather than use the proper channels

And be disappeared quietly, so no one ever hears about it? Come off it, we ARE the Stasi, the KGB informers, the Gestapo sneaks, the ones who pretend nothing is happening when the goons come for the people next door in the night.

Your nation and ours are NOT defending freedom, they are defending privilege and the police machine that immunises its operators against legal process, provided they continue to defend the privileged.

Freedom from want, if you do want
Freedom of speech if you say what we want
Freedom from fear if you've nothing to hide
Freedom from freedom.

Freedom, finally, from your own desires, hopes, and ambitions; and those of your descendants. Forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,JS
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 05:46 PM

Freedom from want, if you do what we want

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 05:55 PM

Freedom from as opposed to freedom to? Have you been partying with Marx?

Marx with a lampshade on his head- kills me every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 06:52 PM

The four freedoms according to Roosevelt were

Freedom of speech and expression
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear.

So presumably he was a Marxist, Suzy...

But of course, that was then, and now is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 07:42 PM

Yo, Jack Sproket,

If you are smart enough to hack into some very secretive cyber-files then I think you would be smart enough to figure out how to take that info to a congressman or journalist without getting "disappeared"...

Bad answer...

Guess again...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 08:02 PM

Complacent amateur pillock

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Charmion
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 08:59 AM

Returning to our muttons ...

Private Manning deliberately disobeyed orders, regulations and laws, and was appropriately charged, tried and convicted on those offences. Defence counsel seem to have done a pretty good job with a very difficult case. Unfortunately, the U.S Army covered itself with infamy in the process by permitting staff at several detention facilities to indulge in wanton cruelty toward him when he was in pre-trial custody, and the judge's obvious efforts to apply the law dispassionately did nothing to mitigate that.

The sooner Pte Manning can get to the DB and under competent care, the better. I hope his lawyers continue to advocate for him, especially with respect to his mental health needs.

Meanwhile, Julian Assange is still not in shackles. Pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Stu
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 09:27 AM

"You know, hauling out tapes of kids getting shot to justify your own bad decision is cheap... That is Talibanish PR..."

No it isn't. It's what your servicemen did in your name. Now if you agree with that, defend away and have the guts to do so, if you don't then Chelsea Manning would be a hero to you for exposing the hypocrisy of the actions western governments engaged in war in the middle east.

It's a fact. There in front of your eyes. Dead kids. Forget any moral superiority (implied by your "talibanish" comment), collectively none of us has any any more thanks to actions like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 10:54 PM

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend (1) the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and (2) that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Manning did it in numerical order, as he should have, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 11:10 PM

PS I added the numbers in that quotation. My bad for not putting them in {brackets].

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:39 PM

For Bradley/Chelsea and Edward - Traitor's Love

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:27 AM

As MGOH gave us a link to the "Colateral Murder Tape" perhaps he can enlighten us on the following aspects of that incident:

1: What were the Reuters Cameraman and his driver doing there? How did they come to be there?

2: Why were they not wearing their issued, and extremely distinctive, kevlar vests, body armour and Helmets that would have immediately identified them as being representatives of the international "PRESS"?

3: Weapons are easily identified as being present and carried by those on the scene and there was no mistaking any camera or camera tripod - both AK-47 and RPG-7 are unmistakably in evidence, they were found at the scene when the ground patrol arrived, still photographs were taken of them in situ - as the helos filmed everything in real time on cameras linked to a signal time generator there could be no possibility of those guns and weapons being "planted" by anyone.

4: Apart from the Reuters employees, the injured children and the man driving the van, can you give me the name of anyone else killed or wounded in the incident? The Iraqi authorities couldn't because none of those killed at the scene was carrying any form of identification. All those people and not a single wallet, ID card, letter or label - any plausible explanation for that rather odd anomaly Kevin?

5: Care to expound upon why neither helicopter saw the van approach? If the assumption that the van driver was simply a "Good Samaritan" passing by? Apache Attack Helicopters and their crews are trained to protect armour and to do that they become extremely proficient at noticing movement, particularly movement of vehicles - none was noticed which lends to the possibility that the van was already parked up immediately ready to whisk away those about to take part in the ambush that was undoubtedly being set as part of an on-going insurgent operation against the MNF/Iraqi ground patrol that had already come under fire.

6: Reuters reviewed all audio, video tapes, all transcripts and all photographs taken of the incident (Including the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time) within 14 days of it occurring - now if after reviewing all this information could you put forward any possible explanation why, if THEY (an independent internationally renowned news agency) thought their men had been murdered why they kept quiet about it? Between the incident happening and their review they ran (IIRC) two or three articles on it but then after the review - Absolutely NOTHING.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:38 PM

As Chelsea, does she get sent to a woman's prison?

I definitely think it more interesting that Bradley came out as Chelsea than that s/he got 35 years. I woulda thought life or nothing.

I am an Embassy brat, and I have thought for EVER that what got said in classified cables was horrifyingly bigoted.

"There's ten thousand ragheads out chewing the flag" was how they informed DC of the 1979 takeover of the Teheran embassy, for example, and me of the term raghead. Arabs were also called sand-niggers. I mean really. In writing. By officials.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 05:21 PM

Biology trumps psychology. PVT Manning will be in the male section of the US Disciplinary Barracks at Ft. Leavenworth, KS.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:48 PM

I am sure you see what you think you see, Teribus. So do I.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 01:50 AM

Obviously Reuters thought they saw exactly what I did.

Certainly the members of the MNF/Iraqi patrol that arrived on the scene not only saw what I saw but took photographs of the weapons at the scene where they lay and then collected them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 01:51 AM

Apologies "Guest" above was me

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:07 PM

How can they put a girl in guy prison?

Subject: RE: BS: Bradley Manning gets 35 years sentence
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:05 PM

How can they put a person who is biologically male in 'girl' prison. Who is at fault if s/he changes his/her mind again and someone is harmed?