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BS: Name for people from USA
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 28 Aug 13 - 11:02 AM "United States of America." Hence "Americans." Don't like it? Sue us. People certainly have the right to eschew "Americans" in favor of "USAans" or "USers" or whatever, but we have the right to consider those people hopeless. And we feel confident that the future history of English will vindicate us. By the way, if the South had succeeded in 1865, the question would be still more complicated. In several Parallel Universes, this is resulting in yet more pointless Mudcat threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 28 Aug 13 - 10:53 AM "He thought all music from what we (probably inaccurately) refer to as the British Isles" Mind the British Isles (and its dirivitives)is the original name for the island group and is still the name used for it by the vast bulk of the people living in the British Isles. Some Irish people now dislike the term for modern political reasons and the misconception that the name means the isles belong to Great Britain! Kind of like as if modern Canadians started to dislike the continent being called North America because people from the USA use the appellation Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: PHJim Date: 28 Aug 13 - 10:53 AM As a Canuck, I don't think of myself or of Mexicans...as Americans. I use that word to refer to citizens of the USA. I am a North American, but seldom, if ever, refer to my self by continent. Most Canadians do not consider the word "Canuck" to be an insult, rather a term of endearment. I don't think of the word "Yank" or "Yankee" as a word that applies to citizens of Texas, Louisiana, or other southern states. This is one citizen of "The Americas" who is willing to concede that "Americans" refers to citizens of the USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: John P Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:51 AM To the question of whether or not Americans should be called Yankees, I'd say it would make more sense to call someone from Ireland "British" than to call people from most of the US "Yankees". In the United States, Yankee has two meanings. The most accurate is that Yankee refers to people from New England. The less accurate is for people from the South as it existed during the Civil War to call anyone who was from the North as it existed during the Civil War a Yankee. Since about half of the US wasn't part of the US during the Civil War, that leaves out most of us. It's always interesting looking at what people call themselves compared to what people from elsewhere call them. I once played music with a guy who had Celtic stars in his eyes. He thought all music from what we (probably inaccurately) refer to as the British Isles was Celtic music. We finally had to tell him he couldn't introduce the English music we were playing because he'd almost always refer to it as Celtic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Aug 13 - 08:40 AM Not as worried as the Hamburgers... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:49 AM As well you corrected that Grishka. We might have got worried about all those cannibals... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:23 AM Of course, I meant "hamburgers", not "Hamburgers". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:18 AM MtheGM (28 Aug 13 - 02:24 AM), they certainly would, particularly when addressing Spaniards. See e.g. Wiki - easy to understand even if you do not speak Nevertheless, "Americans" is often used colloquially meaning "US Americans" ("estadounidense" in that Wiki, translating "unitedstatian"), even by other "Americans" including Canadians and Peruvians. Janie, you addressed an important point: there are several countries whose official names are also used for a wider geographical area. Macedonia is an example which gives rise to severe national conflicts. And let us face it, the fear of the USA monopolizing all America (often misnamed as "Monroe Doctrine") has not really disappeared yet. It is therefore polite to use an unambiguous name, unless every listener or reader is known to understand the context correctly. My concern is also to avoid using names of nations when talking about particular groups or persons from that country. Instead of "The Americans invaded Grenada", I would prefer "The US military ..." (or "The U.S. military ...") - not all its members did either, but it indicates the responsibility more clearly. As for national clichés like "Americans eat Hamburgers", best do not mention them at all, or, if you must, in very strong inverted commas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Aug 13 - 07:10 AM I believe it is quite common in Spain to refer to visitors from South America as "Americanos". Do we use the term "Europeans" specifically to refer to citizens of countries in the EU rather than of other European countries? ......................... Maeve's quotation reminded me of Yeats writing "My country is Kiltartan Cross, my countrymen Kiltartan poor". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: maeve Date: 28 Aug 13 - 06:09 AM My favorite reference in the discussion of self identification of loyalties: 'The Patriot', J.C. Milne, in Poems (Aberdeen, 1976), p. 131. Fecht for Britain? Hoot awa! For Bonnie Scotland? Imph, man, na! For Lochnagar? Wi' clook and claw! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 28 Aug 13 - 05:47 AM Precisely Mike! South Americans identify with their individual countries and Canada has its own distinct name, so what is wrong with "Americans"? It's what the rest of the world calls them. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Aug 13 - 02:24 AM Moreover, Kevin, this 'entitlement' is purely taxonomic, and in no way idiomatic. No-one, surely, would assert "I am an American; I come from Peru", would they? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Janie Date: 27 Aug 13 - 11:26 PM From Kevin, There are hundreds of million people in a whole range of countries who are also perfectly entitled to call themselves Americans. There are also million, even billions of people who are entitled to call themselves Europeans, Asians or Eurasians (for example.) If they choose to do so, they are welcomed to do so. Most people, when referring to their nationality, use a name that reflects the name of their country. As some one above noted, the USA happens to be the only country on either the North or South American continents that incorporates "America" in the name of the country. If any country in Europe, and only one country on the continent of Europe, used Europe in it's name, I think it likely the term "European" would commonly be understood to refer to people from that country rather than referring to all who dwell on that continent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: ChanteyLass Date: 27 Aug 13 - 10:01 PM Joe, you wrote, " The song, 'I'm Proud To Be An American,' has become a Republican National Anthem. It makes me gag." It makes me gag, too, and more now as our freedoms and rights are being taken away. They are certainly not like what is referred to in these two lines. " 'Cause the flag still stands for freedom and they can't take that away. And I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free." There are many other nations of which I would happily be a citizen. While there are many good things about the USA, there are many good things about other nations, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Bill D Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:09 PM "merkin" is a pubic wig...as in Heironymus.. 'murkin' or 'murikan' is kinda sorta diff'rnt. It's easier iffn ya' say it with yer mouth fulla terbaccy... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Rob Naylor Date: 27 Aug 13 - 07:09 PM I must say I do rather like the term "Merkin"....the fact that it's also the name for a pubic wig is the clincher for me :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Rob Naylor Date: 27 Aug 13 - 07:05 PM McGrath: English has all kinds of oddities about what you can say, and also about what you shouldn't say. So you can say "Yorkshireman" or "Lancashireman", but you can't say "Irelandman". I've actually never heard the term "Lancashireman" used, despite spending my formative years in Yorkshire very close to the Lancashire border. Yes, it was "Yorkshireman" or "Yorkshirewoman" but always the gender-neutral "Lancastrian" when referring to "them ovver theear"! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Rob Naylor Date: 27 Aug 13 - 06:38 PM Kendall: Amerigo Vespucci never set foot on the continent, yet he got it named for him. How? MONEY! There's actually some doubt as to whether the continent was named after Vespucci. Firstly, other than royalty, it was virtually unheard of for "new" lands and features to be given the *first* names of people who they were named after. The surname was the norm. Secondly, there's evidence that Vespucci's first name was originally Alberigo and that he changed it to Amerigo in honour of the "new" country *after* its name had become established. There's a school of thought that traces the name to Richard Ap Meryck, Earl of Gwent, who financed John Cabot's 1497 voyage to Newfoundland....that fits in with the normal convention of using surnames, but also conforms to your "How? MONEY!" comment :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Bill D Date: 27 Aug 13 - 11:49 AM "...that a lot of people in Yorkshire would see their primary identity as being Yorkshire..." And over here, many people...especially in the South.... would see their primary identity as from their state. Because we began a loosely organized bunch of colonies whose boundaries were in flux, the concept of 'American' was slow to develop. In discussions here at Mudcat, it often seems hard for some to grasp just how deeply the idea of 'state's rights' is embedded in our entire system. Someone from Yorkshire may indeed identify culturally and linguistically that way, but I doubt they would totally reject the basic laws and responsibilities of England ...as some from Alabama, Texas, Mississippi...or even in some areas, Maine or California or Utah do. Yes, for convenience and in case of war, we say what we believe "America" should do, but liquor laws and voting rights and motor vehicle restrictions and marriage laws and taxes and several other areas vary widely... and are by some defended as if they lived in a separate country. Sadly, the differences are being embedded MORE deeply in some cases these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 27 Aug 13 - 11:32 AM "I'd suggest that there are a great many people in Northern Ireland who are strongly in favour of the link with the rest of the UK but who'd see their primary identity as being Ulster" You could well be right. I had a look at the 2012 Northern Ireland Life & Times Survey which gives some interesting figures though on the dual nationality bit it doesn't give the option to say Ulster! In the identity questions the stats were............ Irish not British = 24% More irish than British = 14% Equally Irish and British = 17% More British than Irish = 23% British not Irish = 23% Interestingly only 28% describe themselves as Unionist and only 23% as Nationalist with only 4.83% saying they are very strong unionists and only 2.76% saying they are very strong nationalists. As to their preferred long term solution for Northern Ireland Part of UK with direct rule = 12% part of UK with devolution = 50% United Ireland = 16% Independent Northern Ireland = 5% Only 14% of people said they would have real difficulty in accepting it if the people voted to join a united Ireland - and only 4% said they would have real difficulty in accepting it if the people never voted to join a united Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Aug 13 - 09:44 AM It all depends on context. There are planty of circumstances in which people from other counties in the New World might refer to themselves, or be referred to, as Americans. Not, I would imagine, at passport control. My point? Clarifying my meaning in a discursive thread. The lack of an exclusive term for the citizens of the USA is not particularly significant, but it's an interesting enough and extremely unusual anomaly among countries. Nothing wrong with the occasional anomaly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: JennieG Date: 27 Aug 13 - 09:34 AM I agree with the posts above which pointed out that American soldiers in WWII were paid better than their Ozzie counterparts (even if they themselves weren't paid huge wages), plus of course the 'extras' which they were able to lay their hands on.....no wonder the local girls were swept off their feet! The grass is always greener, and all that stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Aug 13 - 09:24 AM Yes ~~ but they don't because they have the sense to see that doing so would simply cause unnecessary confusion & misunderstanding. So I don't quite see what point you think yourself to have made with that observation. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:47 AM I'd suggest that there are a great many people in Northern Ireland who are strongly in favour of the link with the rest of the UK but who'd see their primary identity as being Ulster. I've even come across such people using the term "Brit" with a degree of hostility in respect of some action by the Representatives of the Westmnster government. For that matter my impression is that a lot of people in Yorkshire would see their primary identity as being Yorkshire, rather than English, let alone British. And that goes for some other counties. ........... And MtheGM, I wasn't suggesting that "American" isn't the generally accepted term, both in ordinary usage and even legally. But it's not an exclusive term. There are hundreds of million people in a whole range of countries who are also perfectly entitled to call themselves Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:05 AM "Nobody has yet convinced me that there is one "correct" definition of Britishness" It is difficult but I think the only place where you really would have to walk on egg shells a bit with this is parts of Northern Ireland. It can be a serious issue over there. You wouldn't get the really serious anti-British attitudes anywhere in Great Britian that you may get from sections of the nationalist community but neither would you get the overt Britishness that you find in the unionist community either. Indeed the Institute for Public Policy Research in their last study on the subject found that only around 10% of people in England regarded themselves as principally or only British rather than English. The figures in Scotland tend to be slightly less only about 8% or so regard themsleves as principally or only British. They come to the conclusion that nowhere in Great Britian is there a significant section of the population who's principle identity is British. That though does exist in Northern Ireland. I can understand how it is confusing for people |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:48 AM ... and by the expensive consumer-goods gifts they brought: silk or nylon stockings, normally unobtainable here; Nestlé & Hershey chocolate bars ...; all of which augmented that impression of 'overpaid' affluence. The poor British troops could only stand by, looking sadly on as their girls were seduced [in all senses] away from them, ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:27 AM "I wonder if U.S. soldiers were overpaid during WWII. I kinda doubt it, but maybe so" I always thought the "overpaid, over-sexed and over here" thing was a British saying originally! Who knows but it was certainly known and used here too. I suppose it depends on what is meant by over-paid. I think the idea was that they were over-paid in comparison to the British soldiers. Over-sexed because the British girls had their heads turned by these exotic foreigners coming in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:10 AM Jennie G says: During World War II when many American servicemen were stationed in Oz, it was said at the time that they were "overpaid, oversexed and over here"......a term used was "seppo". I wonder if U.S. soldiers were overpaid during WWII. I kinda doubt it, but maybe so. Food and lodging are provided, so any pay received by unmarried soldiers, can go for pleasure. But I was a married soldier in Berlin, and my oldest son was born there. We got a pay raise when I was there, and Nixon froze it. So....I certainly didn't feel overpaid. But hey, the drill sergeant said, "If the Army wanted you to have a wife, it would have issued you one." That firstborn child just turned 41. I'm glad we had him, despite the cost. Oh, and back on the subject. I don't get fussy about it. I just call myself an "American," and don't make a big deal of it. The song, "I'm Proud To Be An American," has become a Republican National Anthem. It makes me gag. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Aug 13 - 12:56 AM ... and anyhow, further to Janie's little esprit about late for supper, let us recall the saying quoted by Evelyn Waugh in Brideshead Revisited -- "It doesn't matter what people call you unless they call you pigeon pie and eat you up." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Aug 13 - 12:50 AM I repeat, from above, because it doesn't seem to have been taken on board ~~ Presidents of the United States of America, when formally addressing their countrymen, generally start their speeches with the words "My fellow Americans" do they not? Which would surely imply that "Americans" is the correct term, in what might, by an obvious analogy, be called "The President's English"; and appears to be accepted as such by the fellow countrymen thus spoken to in the vocative. Or has anyone of you thus addressed ever objected to such a form, or heard any of your fellow countrymen do so? If not, then I would again urge that this demonstrates "Americans" to be both de facto and de jure the correct and accepted usage. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Janie Date: 27 Aug 13 - 12:01 AM In common usage around the world, whether politically or geographically correct or not, it seems that when one uses "Americans" they are using that term to mean citizens of the USA. As far as my personal preferences, call me anything you like, just don't call me late for supper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: YorkshireYankee Date: 26 Aug 13 - 09:33 PM Oops! GUEST, 26 Aug 13 - 06:46 PM was me... seem to have lost my cookie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Aug 13 - 09:23 PM If the Confederate secession had worked, presumably they'd have kept on being called Confederates - but what would the people of the Union be called? I can't see "Americans" as too likely, except as a way of referring to both successor states. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: ChanteyLass Date: 26 Aug 13 - 09:08 PM I've always thought United Statesian would work, but I doubt anyone else would want to use that term! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Aug 13 - 08:31 PM Citizens of the "United States of America" are properly called "Americans," just as citizns of "Estados Unitas Mexicanos" are properly called "Mexicans." If one wants to describe a "world part" it is appropriate to distinguish "North Americans," including Americans, Canadians, and Mexicans, from "Central Americans" or "South Americans" (including mostly corrupt politicians and drug smugglers, according to some) with all of these being less ambiguous than many similar "Eastern" regions. Even the quite proper "American Continents" is far too ambiguous to be useful. In my area, we have most difficulty with the "English," "Brits" the "UKians" and a couple of other things we sometimes call them, all of which have certain ambiguities; so we generally just call them all "greenies" since everyone from "over there" who couldn't get a job there seems to be here on a "green card" and those are the only ones many of us see. (We have difficulty keeping up with whether it's England, Britain, or "the UK." Maybe Urineans (Euroeans?) would be more generic.) (Opinion remains divided on whether the "greenies" are more or less desirable than others who are "just here" without the card. This dispute is unlikely to be resolved soon.) [According to Sarc.] John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: EBarnacle Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:41 PM Back in the 50's I read a science fiction story entitled "Digging the Weans" about an archeological dig done at some indefinite time in the future. The "writer" of the report said that the country was known as the US, the proper collective term for the inhabitants of that part of North America was almost certainly pronounced WE-ans. There is no disputing that Gus is in the East. PS, the dig was in Manhatten. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: JennieG Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:28 PM During World War II when many American servicemen were stationed in Oz, it was said at the time that they were "overpaid, oversexed and over here"......a term used was "seppo". Rhyming slang - "seppo" = "septic tank" = "yank". But that's not kind, so I wouldn't use it these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: gnu Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:07 PM Allan... indeed. Even far more complicated, obviously, than I have the wherewithall to address. I just try to make silly jokes about it all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 13 - 06:46 PM When I lived in the Detroit area, Windsor (Ontario) was a fun destination, and I crossed the border to get there every now & then. When asked my citizenship by the border guards (especially heading INTO Canada), I decided that "US" (rather than "American") was the best answer - since it seems clear to me that USians (the word I use when posting on Mudcat) are not the only "Americans". Although - if I said "USians" in conversation, the person I was talking to prolly wouldn't know what I meant... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 26 Aug 13 - 05:00 PM Nobody has yet convinced me that there is one "correct" definition of Britishness. A pragmatic (re)definition would be easy, but given the emotions mentioned by Allan and others, the word seems burnt. Until further notice, you will be punished with the name "UK citizens", whenever a clear-cut notion is required. (As for dominions, Channel Islands, Gibraltar, and whatever other constructs you have devised, stick them up your legalistic arsenal ;).) When Scotland becomes independent, there will be a chance to rethink the whole notion of nation and national identity altogether. The idea of a cozy little England, ditto Scotland, Wales, etc., and a strong European Parliament (at the expense of the European Commission) may appear more and more attractive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM "The term Brit means, to me, English, Scots and Welsh with Irish thrown in depending on the discussion and on whether any Irish are within earshot" As far as that part of Ireland that is part of the UK goes I'd imagine you'd be just as likely, or arguably more likely, to get yourself into hot water if you suggested that they weren't British. I wouldn't fancy going to watch Northern Ireland play football, or go to a pub on the Shankhill, and tell the people "Nah you guys are not British!" Suicide mission springs to mind! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:05 PM "And if the Scots vote for independence it would no longer really be an available term," They perhaps would still use it anyway who knows? It means different things to different people anyway. To me if the UK didn't exist we would still be British (ie Scots, English and Welsh) in the sense that we live on the island of Britain. Just like Swedes and Norwegians are both Scandinavians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:01 PM Quite so McGrath. I agree. If talking about footbal I could say there is a German in goal. Or a Scot in goal. Or an American in goal. But it wouldn't sound right to say "there is a French in goal" I'd need to say there is a Frenchman in goal. Or perhaps there is a French goalkeeper. But that is using the word 'French' in a different manner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:50 PM You might of course say "he is a Frenchman" or "she is a Frenchwoman", but you'd be more likely to say"he is French". (If you say "he is Frenchman" it,d sound as if were making out that you were Russian, because the Russians don't use article like a and the.) English has all kinds of oddities about what you can say, and also about what you shouldn't say. So you can say "Yorkshireman" or "Lancashireman", but you can't say "Irelandman". And while it's grammatically fine to say "Chinaman" it tends to be seen as disrespectful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Ebbie Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:49 PM Terry, we ain't lost. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: gnu Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:44 PM T. Ya didn't lose em. Ya still own em. When Beth says "Bomb.", they launch and keep shootin until she tells em to stop. Same fer Canuckistan... until the next election, I hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Leadfingers Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:36 PM Despite having VERY good friends over the pond I still (Probably FAR too often) call them the inhabitants of our long lost colonies of the Americas |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:04 PM "They are French" sounds correct to me, grammatically" It does but I only know that being used with French as an adjective rather than a noun. More obvious when you use it in the singular. You hear "he is French" or indeed "she is French" but that is the same use as "he is English". But if you use the word as a noun it doesn't work. You simply wouldn't say "he is a French" or "he is an English" like you would say "he is a German" or "he is a Scot". I don't know why but it just isn't used in that context. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: Bill D Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:01 PM "C'mon, Bill. You've never said Kleenexing? :) " *grin*....naawww,never even heard it. And in my house we almost always say 'tissues' unless we mean a specific brand. We DO often say "Jello", because it's hard to find any other brand any longer. (Oh sure...I have opinions about jelly/Jello too!) Now, as to nicknames, I don't 'usually' mind Yanks. I can usually tell by context or tone of voice how it's meant. (It is not hard to find certain folks, usually in the South, referring to "Mur-kins", as in "All my folks was god-fearin' Murkins!" or, if they're being formal, "a-Murkins".) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Name for people from USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:38 PM They could indeed adopt "British", and do, it"s essentially inaccurate. And if the Scots vote for independence it would no longer really be an available term, in a United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland. God knows what term will be used if that happens. |
