Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase

Subject: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 11:40 AM

15,000 signatures in ten hours. I was the 48,565th several hours ago and it's now at 57,347 with singatures from all over NA, Europe... even Iceland, I think.

Come on ALL Mudcatters! Read the story and sign the petition... please!

The link will not fit in the link maker.......

http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/canadian-government-to-charge-international-touring-artists-425-per-band-member-per-performance-in-canada-previously-a-1-time-150-fee

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: Monique
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 11:46 AM

Petition clicky.

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 12:01 PM

So Canada doesnt want any Non Canadians doing low priced gigs ?? Wipes out most Folk Visitors .

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 12:20 PM

Two more signatures, I hope!

Actually, Terry. Our present government is a collective of, among other things, stunned as me arse ^%$$%&&*(*^%@#s.

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 12:28 PM

I hope everyone realizes that this petition is not just for music and culture in Canada but for everyone everywhere. I am sure Terry and other Brits could speak to the recent changes in laws there, of which I am vaguely familiar with due to, ah, er, memory fatigue... yeah, I like that terminology "better".

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 12:30 PM

OH! See?

Thanks, Monique!

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 12:38 PM

Original charge $150 maxing to $450 per band member, a one-time fee.

Venues with a main business other than music (pubs, etc.) now must pay an application fee of $275 per musician, agent or other travelling with the musicians.
This equals $275 per musician, on top of the $150 fee for a work permit.

The Palomino Smokehouse in Calgary is one of the venues affected.

I have signed (thanks, Monique, for the link).

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:07 PM

The new regulations, implemented by Minister Jason Kennedy specifically target bars, coffee houses and restaurants, the venues must likely to hire small groups and individuals.

Large venues are not affected. In Calgary, large venues including the Saddledome, the Stadium, McEwan Hall, etc., whose main business is entertainment, are free of the fees.

Elton John performing to thousands in the Stadium is tax-free!

The measure is designed, according to the Minister, to ensure that Canadian acts are hired.

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: DebC
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:08 PM

Putting my Union Hat on here.

I don't like it either, but I do want to say this: If you are NOT playing in a bar, restaurant or coffeeshop this does not affect you or those venues. Folk clubs, house concerts and festivals are not affected by this. If you are a non-Union member, and playing folk venues you will still have to pay the $150 work permit fee. If you are a Union member, you can get what's called "Letter of Cultural Exchange" for $40. I get one of these every time I am playing in Canada and I have never had any trouble at the border.

No the tax issues regarding playing in Canada (and now for Int'l musicians touring in the USA), that's another story.

I am gonna sign though.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:22 PM

In a local Facebook group that reports/supports live music, a question... "Is there fees for Canadians performing in other places like this?" What sayest thou from the Great White North who perform in The States?

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: DebC
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 01:41 PM

Hoo boy. The fees that the petition addresses are work permit fees. Canadians have to go through the AFM to get their what is called a "P-2" visa to perform in the USA. Canadians have to pay the same fees as anyone else coming to the USA to work.

And it ain't cheap.

"Crossing the Border" Info From AFM Local 1000

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 04:38 PM

Thanks, Deb! I shall report that to the group.

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: treewind
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 04:49 PM

"Folk clubs, house concerts and festivals are not affected by this"

That's a relief. I hope it's true. Otherwise it would be no more Mill Race Festival for us or any other foreign visitors, and that would be a shame.

As for tax, the way it works for us is: we (from UK) filled in a tax waiver form so we didn't have Canadian taxes deducted - presumably the Canadian Revenue relay info to the UK Revenue who would be able to check, if they wanted to, that we'd declared the income on our own tax return.

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 05:09 PM

Although folk clubs, house concerts, and festivals aren't directly affected, the fact is that when performers are booked, because there isn't much money to pay a lot, booking performers in bars, lounges, etc. can help defray many of the expenses.

So I suspect that folk clubs and house concerts, in particular, will definitely be affected.

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 05:24 PM

Thanks, Larry... your post has been quoted to the group as well. Note that I do not include names but only the comments.

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: DebC
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 05:58 PM

That might be the case, Larry for some. I can only speak for myself. I have played in places that are pubs in Canada, but it was a space used by a separate folk club for concerts. But I only play concert venues and the gigs have to be vetted by the Canadian Federation of Musicians (CFM) before I am issued a Cultural Exchange Letter.

My understanding of these changes is that these are the FEES for work permits/visas. The venues wouldn't be paying these, the artists would which has always been the case.

Either way, I wonder if this is a "well if the USA can charge exhorbitant visa fees, why shouldn't we?"

Again the taxation issue as Anahata mentioned above is a totally different animal.

Deb

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 06:55 PM

"The new rules, which came into effect July 31, 2013, as part of the federal Government's Temporary Foreign Worker guidelines, require each non-exempt venue bringing in an act from outside the country to pay $275 per musician and crew member when applying for a Labour Market Opinion, or LMO. There is an additional $150 for each approved musician and crew member's work permit."

Spencer Brown books the bands for the Palomino in Calgary, is one who is upset by the ruling which affects his and other small bars and clubs which bring in bands from the States or overseas.

"The regulations require that any venue with a primary business other than music must now pay an application fee of $275 per musician and those travelling with the band when it applies for a Labour Market Opinion or LMO to allow those outside workers(....) to perform and work in their establishment."
Mike Bell, Calgary Herald, August 28, 2013.

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 08:05 PM

From Facebook...






***** ***** via Roopen Majithia


Roopen Majithia posted to Tantramarsh Blues Society
Options for this story

Dear Members of the Tantramarsh Blues Society,

We write to you today regarding some disconcerting developments on the music front. As you know, TBS has been presenting a combination of 6-8 American and Canadian acts every year for the last 12 years. Recent changes in the Temporary Worker Program, to which we have to apply to bring the American bands across the border, may now make it impossible to present these acts. In the past, we usually payed a fee of $450 per American band per mini-tour, that was shared between the various maritime venues. Now, perhaps because of alleged misuse of the temporary worker program by large corporations, the fee for a five member band has been increased to $1825 possibly per venue, or, at the very least, per tour (the interpretation is as yet unclear).

We are hoping that the government finds a way of exempting cultural activities from these draconian changes, especially when they take place in small venues and are sponsored by non-profit organizations. But in order to be heard, we will need as many of you and all your friends who are interested in live music to sign the following petition at Change.org to Jason Kenny, Minister for Employment, Social Development and Multiculturalism.

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: DebC
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 09:16 PM

Oh, I was wrong. Thanks for setting me straight, Q. I never knew that those venues in Canada had to pay when they hired international musicians. But then again, I always play venues that are exempt.

I'd be very interested to see if this applies to folk musicians like myself. I do know that a musician cannot get the Letter of Cultural Exchange if you are playing a non-exempt venue.

I apologise for the mis-information.

Deb

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 09:18 PM

I signed the petition but I am conceited enough to hope that I am on Harper's enemy list, so my name is perhaps dirt in the government's eye!
That being said it is a case of two wrongs not making a right and idots in Washington equate to idiots in Ottawa. The bastards drawing up the policies are never the ones to suffer............A pity!

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: DebC
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 09:29 PM

Just saw this from Bruce Fife, VP of the AFM via Facebook
Bruce Fife: "Another great reason to join the AFM! The hidden story behind this story is that AFM members do NOT, we repeat, do NOT, have to pay these extra fees! That's right, the new $275 per person surcharge does NOT apply to AFM members. All you have to do is contact the AFM's Canadian office to get your verification before you go. Our members pay $150 per musician, $450 max per band, which is what everyone used to pay."

So are we talking about two different things here? The petition is about the Canadian Gov't charging MUSICIANS an extra $275 per person to tour in Canada. This is what I am talking about.

Someone set me straight, please.

Deb

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: DebC
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 09:42 PM

Okay. I've got it. If the VENUE is acting as agent for the musician then, of course they would be paying the visa application fees. It works the same in the UK if a VENUE sponsors an Int'l artist to perform in the UK.

BUT...if an independent artist such as myself who is also an AFM member books a tour in Canada, I do not have to pay the extra fees as Bruce stated above.

So there is a distinction. The guy in Calgary probably does all the visa application work for the Int'l bands he brings in. If the musicians he hires, though are AFM members, then he doesn't have to pay the fees. If he hires a band from Europe, I guess he is out of luck on that one.

Wow. I cleared up my own confusion.

Deb

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 11:51 PM

"Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase"

Yeah, and so?

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 06:30 AM

Thanks Deb.

If anyone ever plays in PEI, NB or NS lemmie know and I'll do some advertising on Facebook (closed group).

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: gnu
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 11:18 AM

Mike Bell, Calgary Herald


AAA




A version of this article was originally published by the Calgary Herald.

Many bar owners, booking agents and promoters are bemoaning changes to the federal regulations surrounding foreign workers entering Canada which will see them hit with heavier financial burdens that could deal a crippling blow to live music at the club level.

The new rules, which quietly came into effect July 31, will double, triple or even quadruple the cost of bringing in international artists to perform in bars, restaurants or coffee shops across the country.

The regulations require that any venue with a primary business other than music but which also books bands or performers must now pay an application fee of $275 per musician and those travelling with the band (tour manager, sound person, guitar tech, etc.) when it applies for a Labour Market Opinion, or LMO, to allow those outside workers to perform and work in their establishment. That's also in addition to an extra $150 for each approved musician and crew member's work permit.

Prior to the changes, the fee was simply $150 per band member, maxing out at $450, and that was a one-time fee for them to simply enter the country, which allowed venue owners across Canada to share the nominal cost or book them separately at no extra charge.

Spencer Brown, the longtime booker for downtown Calgary venue The Palomino — which hosts a mix of local, national and out-of-country acts — was surprised by the changes, saying there was "no consultation, no warning, nothing of the sort," and only learned of them when an agency he works with "called him in a panic" at the beginning of the month in regards to an upcoming show.

He calls the new regulations, which Minister of Employment, Social Development & Multiculturalism Jason Kenney announced on Aug. 7, "anti arts and culture" and "anti small business."

"If I have a one four-member American band at the Palomino, I'm looking at $1,700 Canadian just to get them on the bill — and that's on top of paying out a sound tech, paying for posters, gear rental, paying the other bands, staffing," Brown says, explaining there have been tweaks to the LMO in the past, but nothing this drastic or, in his eyes, damaging.

"Concert promotion at this level is, in itself, a high-risk occupation. So this has just put it through the roof. There's no way to start already $1,700 in the hole and break even. It's impossible."


Palomino Smokehouse booker Spencer Brown on August 26, 2013 in the club which is one of the venues that he says will be harmed by the changes. (Colleen De Neve/Calgary Herald)

Perhaps making matters even more precarious is that should the application be rejected, for whatever reason, the money is non-refundable and would once again be required upon resubmission.

For their part, the government agencies overseeing the new initiatives — Employment and Social Development Canada and Citizenship and Immigration Canada — deny that small clubs or even music in general is being targeted.

In emailed responses to the Herald, officials note that the rules — which they assure were created with advance consultation from a "wide range of stakeholders across the country," — "apply to all aspects of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program, except primary agriculture." That includes the new fee, which "ensures the administrative costs of the program are paid by employers" — who can't recover the fee from the workers — "and no longer subsidized by taxpayers."

They're also quick to point out there are exemptions, which, on a musical level, includes "musicians in a band performing several tour dates in Canada" and "musicians and buskers coming to Canada to perform in festivals," with the one major caveat being that they "must not perform in bars and restaurants."

That's where Brown and others take exception, noting that other venues that exist exclusively for concerts or other events such as Rogers Arena and BC Place, or larger festivals, aren't penalized despite having a greater opportunity to recoup financial investments.


They are targeting the little guy, they're targeting small venues, they're targeting small business

"They are targeting the little guy, they're targeting small venues, they're targeting small business," he says. "So, me, as the promoter at The Palomino, which will hold 200 people at the best of times, is paying out $425 per band member whereas a guy from a huge promotions company putting on a 20,000-seater for Elton John in the stadium is tax free.

"I don't know if they think small venues are raking in the cash putting on bands that not a lot of people have heard of or they're trying to keep small-time foreign bands out of the country for whatever reason," he says, disregarding Citizenship and Immigration's assertions that the new rules were designed, in part, "to ensure that owners and managers of those types of establishments look to hire Canadians first before hiring temporary foreign workers."



American band Ra Ra Riot playing at the Ottawa Bluesfest in 2013 (Flickr/Bouche)

"Me bringing in (American act) Redd Kross (Aug. 31) is not going to devastate Calgary's garage rock scene. It's not going to put anyone out of work. It's going to inspire people to pick up a guitar and put out an album. The same thing when we bring in Orange Goblin from the U.K. in October, it's not going to destroy the city's stoner metal scene."

In fact, argues Leanne Harrison, owner of locally based artist management and booking company SIN Agency, the opposite just might be true. As she sees it, the previous, more liberal LMO was actually a benefit to the indie artists of the country, providing them opportunities for greater exposure by performing as an opening act for mid-range international bands.

"It's going to impact us in a lot of different ways," says Harrison, who found out about the changes from another popular Calgary venue that will be adversely affected, Dickens Pub.

"Bigger agencies are now going to stack their tours even more with their own artists and there will be less and less opportunities for young up-and-coming bands to get what we call resume builder gigs. . . . It's an opportunity to say, 'We shared the stage with.' They get in front of a bigger crowd, they can build new fans that way, they get their name out there that way."

She also notes that if other nations follow Canada's lead, this country's music scene would suffer even further.


I have bands that tour the U.S all the time. If the U.S. started doing that to us, they'd never cross the border

"I have bands that tour the U.S all the time," she says. "If the U.S. started doing that to us, they'd never cross the border."

Which, ultimately, may not only harm the artist but also those who support and appreciate live music, no matter the origin of the performer.

Harrison says that because of the new fees and regulations, she's already seen the brakes put on one proposed western Canadian tour, that by veteran Las Vegas hard rock band Hemlock, due to the fact that some of those fall dates were in non-exempt venues. It's hoped that it will be rescheduled for the New Year, but that would be, presumably, using only exempt rooms, if they can be found and booked at a price that makes sense to the venue, agent, artist and fan.

"There's only so many Canadian artists, you can only tour your country so often," she says. "If you're limiting the international artists that we can bring in, well, to me, music is global. It shouldn't have those kinds of doors on them."

Subject: RE: Canuck foreign muscian taxation increase
From: DebC
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 12:57 PM

Above was written:

"I have bands that tour the U.S all the time," she says. "If the U.S. started doing that to us, they'd never cross the border."

It costs a lot more for one Canadian musician to legally work in the USA than for an American to work in Canada. Our permit fees here in the USA are pretty high which is one reason why so many UK artists have stopped touring the USA. I have to wonder how the speaker above is able to make that work. I have it on good authority that for a folk trio who comes to the USA regularly, it costs them over $1000 for a tour.

Again, if you are an AFM member, you don't pay the extra fees no matter where you play. If you are a Canadian wanting to tour the USA, being an AFM member makes ir easier, but not cheaper.

Deb