BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:42 AM

you are not in my league.

Thank heavens for that. I would hate to be that far back in the evolutionary game...

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:00 AM

I don't agree Stu, primitive societies sustained themselves for thousands of years, using only survival instinct and faith in their gods. Our present society is heading for destruction, despite, or perhaps because of our vastly superior knowledge of science.

All "progress" in any field has unexpected consequences.
Perhaps we would have a healthier planet without science?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:32 AM

"Would we not be better concentrating on ways to make life on earth sustainable?

We already understand how to do that in broad terms, but simply don't bother. Whilst the planet is exploited for the benefit of a wealthy few then it shall remain thus I imagine.

In the meantime, those of us who can continue to advance our understanding to the best of our abilities and for the common good. In one way or another all science contributes to a wider understanding of us, the planet and the universe and this knowledge often finds applications in areas quite different from the fields the researchers who found them are working in.

It's this interconnectedness of science that seems to be beyond the grasp of the fundamentalists. They can't isolate one area of study as being 'wrong' without condemning other areas as also being 'wrong' by implication. In my area of research, palaeontology we use a whole suite of cross-disciplinary techniques to study ancient life including particle accelerators and other advanced machines used by physicists to explore the very particles the universe is made of (they can help us decode the colour of dinosaur feathers, for example).

They could deny the lot (and the most extreme like Pete do, as he types on his computer), but the truth is that attitude would signify that nothing has been learnt in the past 300 years and if these people want to act like medieval peasants pissing themselves at the thought of the supernatural then good for them, just don't prevent it has any scientific validity and is should have parity when being taught to our children.

These people are the Christian equivalent of the Taliban, and should be treated with the same disdain, for they are as evil, ignorant and regressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:03 AM

As far as I can see Shim, nobody can prove anything about the origin of the universe.
From Cornell University via Google.

"First, the Universe might have what we call positive curvature like a sphere. In this case, the Universe is called "closed" and it has a finite size but without a boundary, just like a balloon. In a closed Universe, you could, in principle, fly a spaceship far enough in one direction and get back to where you started from.

The second possibility is that the Universe is flat. This kind of Universe can be imagined by cutting out a piece of a balloon material and stretching it with your hands. The surface of the material is flat and not curved. You can expand and contract it by tugging on either end. Flat Universes are infinite in extent and have no boundaries.

Finally, the Universe might be "open" or have negative curvature. Such Universes are also infinite in spatial extent and have no boundaries.

Thus whatever be the shape of the Universe, there is nothing called a boundary and hence nothing called the edge or end of the Universe."

It is all "educated guesswork", and beyond our comprehension, and likely to remain so until humanity becomes extinct in say, a couple of hundred years?

Would we not be better concentrating on ways to make life on earth sustainable? This problem should be within our mental capacity, all we need is the will, and possibly a little bit of "faith".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:49 AM

Nothing mythical about contests to see how far you can chuck 'em either.

Worksop Rugby Club circa 1981.

3' 8" to furthest part of body from the 'ocky. That was before my back was held together with pins to be fair. Our first team tight head prop threw the poor bugger beyond the mattress onto the Lino in the bar area. I'll never forget how the "ball" got up, dusted himself down and casually punched him in the nuts. Took four of us to prevent a retaliation.

Didn't have that event the following year. Mind you the dance of the flaming arsehole remained a popular attraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:42 AM

I think that it is time that we reminded ourselves that this whole debate boils down to belief vs evidence. Creationists choose to believe that the Bible expresses the literal truth about origins of the Earth and the living things which inhabit it. They also choose to believe in an immaterial, ineffable Creator and refuse to believe, or are unable to believe, that the Universe and life on Earth arose spontaneously as a result of natural processes. They are, of course, entitled to believe anything they like - but until they can produce evidence to support their beliefs, they cannot call themselves 'scientists' (whatever their academic qualifications may be!). And to a true scientist, the possible existence of an immaterial, ineffable Creator is an irresistible challenge! No real scientist is going to stand there shuffling his/her feet mumbling piously about God being "unknowable"!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:06 AM

Nothing mythical about dwarfism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:02 AM

It just gets better!! Gnomet just legged himself up again!!

From my degree research on mythology Gnomes and Dwarfs are both mythical creatures.

Gnomes originated in the Renaissance period; dwarfs are mythical characters originating from Norse mythology.
As that fraud should know if he has another brain cell, The term "gnomes" was first introduced by a Renaissance physician named Paracelsus; the word "dwarf" was first introduced in Norse mythology in the Prose Edda which was written by Snorri Sturluson and the Poetic Edda.

As per mythology, gnomes were creatures that were very reluctant in interacting with humans;unlike the rank imposter gnomet. They were earth dwellers and could easily move through the earth as humans moved through the air.

As we can see, one of the differences between a gnome and a dwarf is that a dwarf is very wise, so that lets the fraud and imposter out straight away..so really I was being complimentary to the little chap and that would never do..would it?
Just face it bone head,you are not in my league.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:02 AM

Dismal. Yeah, I like that. Sums up rejection of discovery perfectly.

I recall Jasper Carrot speaking of his mother's driving years ago. He said something along the lines of "pulled the choke out. Hung her handbag from it..." Ah. Takes me back.

I'm presently reading "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre. Whilst concentrating on medical matters, the ethos reminds me of some of our deluded brethren.




10/10 to the worm by the way. Managing to slip the word "marriage" in the first sentence of an unrelated reply to a question. And you all thought he was as thick as pigshit....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:15 AM

"I know that their light is coming to us from before a creation date, but their are models that address this, and I understand that evolutionary ideas also have problems fitting it in also."

What models? I'd be very interested to know. Looking on creationist websites the arguments seem to centre on the premise that time acted differently during creation week and hence light had time to travel billions of light years . . .

But there's a contradiction here. If the literalists say Genesis is a true account of creation then it is unequivocally happening on a timescale we understand, days and nights. There is no suggestion anywhere that time worked differently in different part of the universe. To add that in is a lie, plain and simple.

So either the extremists don't literally believe what some bloke wrote in the Bible 2k years ago or they're falsifying, embellishing, deceiving and passing speculation off as 'fact' (as it is the word of god), either way a rather appalling situation for those purporting to seek 'the truth'. Nasty, evil people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:54 AM

The idea that the universe may go on for ever, is incomprehensible to me. It makes any known scientific theory redundant?

And whose idea is this, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:51 AM

I was ridiculed some weeks ago for saying that "the more we learn about the nature of the universe, the less we understand it or how it came into being."

You were ridiculed because this is a shallow, thoughtless and defeatist remark. The more we study the nature of the universe, the closer we get to a more intimate understanding of it or how it came into being. That's why we have our brains. But the more we look, the more we discover previously-unsuspected complexities in the story. That is what is so delicious about science, and why your dismal statement is so vacuous.

Jasper Carrott was tootling along the motorway at 70 with his old mum in the passenger seat. A souped-up car doing 140 zoomed past them in the fast lane. Mother shook her head disdainfully and remarked "He won't get there any quicker like that!" Glancing at her with knitted brow, Jasper retorted "Oh yes he will!"

Your remark reminds me of Jasper's mother, though I doubt that you're a quarter as charming as her.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM

Well Shim, a few years ago, all Christians were "creationists"....the meaning of words seem to evolve or devolve....take "marriage" for example.

I think all Christians who are sincere have a belief in "god the creator".....and its up to us to put our own interpretation on it....if its any of our business.

I was ridiculed some weeks ago for saying that "the more we learn about the nature of the universe, the less we understand it or how it came into being."
I think its well beyond the understanding of such a basic species as humanity, to understand the origin of the universe so I hesitate to laugh at believers in a higher power.
The idea that the universe may go on for ever, is incomprehensible to me. It makes any known scientific theory redundant?

I don't get the pun Shim, I can assure you that I am neither a member of any organised religion, nor a paper cut out socialist....I have the scars to prove it...   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:00 AM

Pete wrote

so how do you define those terms, grishka?
I believe there is a good definition by kerkut, of the general theory of evolution , which is probably known to you?.

I shall not argue about definitions; as I wrote, various differing ones are about. My point is that scientists should not be evolutionists in the sense of the definition I gave; creationists are often seen as polemically identifying evolution theory with that kind of "evolutionism" or Darwinism. Note also that some of Darwin's ideas are no longer part of modern evolution theory.

(Gerald A. Kerkut [1927-2004] was a physiologist who also tried to find evidence against "macroevolution". Note that his work is of no help at all to Bible literalists.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 03:04 AM

it took 3 pages on the web to find the long list of creation scientists

Disingenuous. Firstly please note that my link specifically refers to scientists who became creationists after studying the evidence. Secondly my perfectly standard Google search brought this up, as second entry, followed by lots of others giving lists of scientists who believe in the biblical creation.

Were these purposely discounted because they contain such gems as Many historians (of many different religious persuasions—including atheistic) have shown that modern science started to flourish only in largely Christian Europe and no present day 'long-agers' are included intentionally, because they should know better.? I could go on but sampling the links I found made me ill thinking about the fact that this is what they are teaching children as truth.

And fundamentalist Christians will accuse me of fallacious argument!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:51 AM

"Shim...What makes you think that a persons faith has any bearing on their political allegiance?"

Now there's a low blow out of left (excuse the pun) field! Of course there are left-wing Christians ... did I say that there weren't? Nevertheless, "Creationism" seems to be associated with North American (Christian) religious fundamentalists who tend to be closely associated with right-wing politics. Perhaps, Ake, you might want to provide some examples of left-wing Creationists ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:25 AM

Err. No pete.

You just put that I don't think scientists can't be influenced by their research. Of course they can but that is as humans not scientists. When a key plank of my doctoral research was refined after scrutiny, I was on the viva panel that agreed with the subsequent research and awarded the degree. I can't say I wasn't personally deflated, but I was professionally delighted with the work that updated my own. I don't enjoy music as an engineer or interfere in The NHS as a person who enjoys skiing. Mrs Musket is about as religious as I am but her hobby is church bell ringing.

As scientists people are objective. As humans they are precious, subjective and well human. As creationist scientists they are disingenuous to say the least and an oxymoron to be literal.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM

shimrod - round an round we go. we both have a faith position since you cling to unproven theories and ideas lacking any evidence whatever. I at least have a creator to posit

Well now, pete, "you at least have a creator to posit". My, pete, "posit". Helluva clever word there! Unfortunately, your accommodation of this pretentious word points even more sharply than ever to your total idiocy. The irony of the above quote (irony lamentably unrecognised by you, of course) is that there is no such thing as an unproven theory, that coupled with the obstinate fact that your "posited creator" (Jesus, I wonder how he'd feel about your saying that if he actually existed!) is totally without evidence. The trouble with you, pete, is that you know nothing about science and nothing about religion. Two minutes with any one of the Pope/Archbishop of Canterbury/Dalai Lama/the Chief Rabbi/any Ayatollah/Mother friggin' Teresa and each and every one of 'em would tell you to piss off. And quite right too. It's high time you toddled off (permanently, preferably) and examined your conscience. Hows about starting with "I'm an incredibly thick, lazy bastard who disses honest and hard-working scientists because some wanker on some creationist website tells me to." Once you've sorted that out, perhaps you'll get off your knees and start to think for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 05:11 PM

Shim...What makes you think that a persons faith has any bearing on their political allegiance?

I know several confirmed Christians who are also socialists.
This forum is "left biased" yet there are many here who have a faith in god.
I think perhaps the "religiophobes" are just more voluble on this particular forum.....probably there is a silent majority here who do not want to discuss their personal beliefs with strangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:51 PM

"shimrod and dave being deliberately ignorant of the list of scientists who are creationist ..."

We can't be "deliberately ignorant" if we don't know any! I'm not sure from your post if you've actually found any, pete. If you have got such a list, though, how many of the people on that list are North American religious fundamentalists with a right wing political agenda?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 01:15 PM

shimrod and dave being deliberately ignorant of the list of scientists who are creationist - not to mention many more who are Darwin doubters. granted it took 3 pages on the web to find the long list of creation scientists, as before that, rational[?]wiki hijacks the entries. I think musket is mistaken in thinking that scientists are immune to their research and conclusions being coloured by their own worldviews. creationists though are generally upfront as to their worldview. I should note however that some evolutionists have admitted the lack of evidence for their position, and I have previously quoted such.
I don't know what the supposedly insulting bit is that I am charged with copying?

methinks you are being evasive, stu. as I said,- maybe not scientific lanquage.........if I am factually way off, please enlighten me.
I know of course you reject the conclusion.
so, what is your point regarding stars, other than assuming to guess that God would approve of evolutionists attempting to disprove him as creator. how do stars fly in the face of creationism? . I know that their light is coming to us from before a creation date, but their are models that address this, and I understand that evolutionary ideas also have problems fitting it in also.

so how do you define those terms, grishka?
I believe there is a good definition by kerkut, of the general theory of evolution , which is probably known to you?.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:30 PM

curiouser and curiouser?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM

Awww, bless him. Doesn't even know the difference between a Gnome and a Dwarf :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 10:34 AM

I really have to laugh at this deluded clown He actually believes his own bullshit....tee! hee! or may-hap HO! HO!

Yule tide crayons on the way dwarf. Which one are you by the by? I am betting Dopey for starters..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM

"Stu says " so much wrong with………….." without saying what."

It's not difficult to understand. Everything is wrong in that sentence. Defying mindsets, complexity, mini-factories (hah!), big balls of gas lacking complexity . . . oh my word.


"we now know that is not the case and I think stars are uncountable , more being discovered as probes reach further."

But you can't believe this Pete. The very existence of those stars and the way we observe them and discover their true nature flies in the face of your creationist views. As a fundamentalist you deny science (apart from the bits you can twist to your own view). Of course discovering distant stars and galaxies in no way threatens the existence of God, but utterly torpedoes the childish nonsense of creationism.

Of course, extremists and literalists whose reason trammeled by the dogma of superstition and whose views are not their own but dictated to them by people with dubious motives. I find it odd that if God made us in her image then he would understand our innate curiosity and desire to understand the universe we are born of and, would be pleased her creations are so determined in their efforts to comprehend their place in the universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 10:16 AM

Nah, sorry Conc. No points again. Everyone knows that quotes like that are in italics whereas blatant and misleading C&P without quoting sources is different again. As to who is winding who up. Well, I don't get wound up enough to make up wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy or any other such silly words because I am in a tizzy do I? :-)

Cool Yule to yourself too

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 09:02 AM

Again gnomet you are showing yourself up to be a fraud, a charleton and a condescending and patronizing pseud..

what is c and ping other than what you did here?:

"like it or not, not all scientists are evolutionist"...now who is the liar?

Listen up fool...taint no good playing the jive turkey so near the yule tide

Who is winding who up?

It is you who keep this going with coming back to a self admitted troll..now who is a waste of every ones time?

How many times do I have to tell you all...I am way ahead of you and wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy to good for you..

please buck your ideas up or I may have to leave for real..xxxxxxxx have a really cool yule

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:03 AM

You really need to learn the difference between C&P and providing links, Conc old pal. You have been proved over and over again to be a liar and a waste of everyone's time. If it wasn't so funny to wind you up I would even bother commenting. Keep coming back though, you are one of the few benefits of this thread :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 06:50 AM

I do not believe it!!!!!!!!

One of the centrist, ginger woosy, cake eating (liberal with a (small l) pussy's,the very one who slagged me of for cutting and pasting is actually blatantly doing it!!!

The deranged gnomyo, who is only second to big baby wizzjet as being a crass, self promoting blackguard, is also trying to make his pathetic stature and even more pathetic unit look big with his pseudo intellectual chicanery.

He should really learn his catechism.."those in glass houses shouldn't"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 06:34 AM

The terms "evolutionist" and "Darwinist" are used in various meanings. The following definitions may be the most common ones:

Evolutionist: someone who believes that things get better gradually.
Darwinist: someone (- not Darwin -) who believes that winning means being better and thus being right.

Both views have nothing to do with scientific evolution theory. Whoever holds them cannot claim science, and must be criticized strongly.

Actually attacking biological evolution theory only makes sense for "old earth / long day creationists". Bible literalists are "young earth creationists", which means that the Lord God made them all, including the various human languages, native Americans, ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM

Nice one, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:13 AM

like it or not, not all scientists are evolutionist

I linked it before but it is worth doing again

List of scientists who became creationists


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:05 AM

I was not 'misrepresenting' anything, pete!

I strongly suspect that ALL reputable scientists are "evolutionists" (your word - not mine!). Only a handful of, mainly, right wing North American religious fundamentalists (masquerading as scientists)are "creationists" - and a few people, such as yourself, have allowed themselves to be bamboozled by them!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:11 AM

To be fair, when pete says not all scientists are evolutionists he isn't far off. After all, that would be a position and whilst speaking and acting as a scientist, a person has no such position. They may test the hypothesis but believe in it?

The nearest would be to say there is no evidence put forward for an alternative whilst discovery constantly underlines the evolution hypothesis.

By the way, insulting waffle on creation.com written to support superstition isn't evidence. The quotes from pete that originate there can't even impress me, and evolution isn't my field. Not by a long way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 12:22 PM

usual bible vs science misrepresentation, shimrod.
like it or not, not all scientists are evolutionist.
I suspect there were people like you that told galileo that his idea was anti science too.
granted the evidence does not prove the bible correct directly. it does however support a younger creation than the aeons posited by evolutionism [eg dna, soft tissue, blood residue in dinos] and thus the bible is more consistent with the data IMO.

Stu says " so much wrong with.............." without saying what.
granted I may not talk in scientific terms but I think I am essentially correct, though incomplete, and of course he reject the conclusion.

going back to the post from don, pt 2-
the biblical scribes almost certainly had no idea of the vastness of space , but of course GOD did, and Christians believe he inspired the writings.
take gen 15 v 5,   22 v 17 jerimiah 33 v 22. the stars visible at night could be counted, so a comparison with grains of sand might seem a poor comparison. we now know that is not the case and I think stars are uncountable , more being discovered as probes reach further.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 10:02 AM

"shimrod - round an round we go. we both have a faith position since you cling to unproven theories and ideas lacking any evidence whatever. I at least have a creator to posit, who is immaterial while you posit popping into existence from nothing via no one."

No, pete, only you, and your fellow creationists, have a "faith position" - i.e. you, and they, have been brainwashed into fervently believing old myths without question. Scientists, on the other hand, gather evidence, test theories and build models. Those models are, by their very nature, provisional and can be over-turned and discarded in the face of new evidence (a much less comfortable - but more exciting - position than blind, unquestioning faith).

And, in your opinion, it comes down to an "immaterial creator" (???) vs "popping into existence etc." does it? As far as I'm concerned I am aware that there is evidence for the latter (how ever unconvincing you insist on finding it) and absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, for the former (myths and stories in an old book don't count as evidence).

Oh yes, pete:

Who or what made God?
What materials did the God-maker use?
Where did God gets his materials from?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket smiling
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 09:14 AM

We used to let a God create things and he came up with you!

I suppose when a hoard of peasants with burning torches march on the observatory, they will want a nutter to tell them about what Dr Frankenstein is up to.

It's a good job I don't take the worm's posts seriously, I don't know where to start with that gem.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 07:12 AM

I suppose at some point science will determine how to create "life", but will that not just open up yet another nightmare scenario for humanity?

Basically we are just another species, some of whom :0), have a working, reasoning brain. Is it in our interests as species to create "life".......is that function not better left in Gods domain?

IS it "ethical" to let science progress till we destroy society and ourselves?.....Are some things not "beyond the bucket?"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 07:04 AM

"those big balls of gas however are much less complex than the cell, the complexity of which ,with its mini factories conveying and duplicating information defy the evolutionary mindset.

There's so much wrong with this sentence it sorts of encapsulates why the likes of Pete cannot be allowed to drag us back into the morass of superstition and ignorance which so many have worked to elevate us from.

Pete's creationism is based one just one creation myths amongst many. It's not even a particularly poetic or beautiful story, and a quick glance at Wikipedia's creation myth web page provides a range of far more interesting and captivating creation stories, my favourites being the Norse (particularly after visiting Norway earlier this year) and the Australian indigenous Dreamtime, which is simply wonderful.

Interestingly, if you take Pete's 'methodology' to some of these myths you can come up with the sort of ignorant todge he does, and read floods and feck knows what else into these narratives and skew them to your own nefarious ends. It's as entertaining as it is enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 06:53 AM

I had read about extremophiles some time ago on CMI [incidentally, don, the invitation still stands to briefly outline a couple of alleged factual errors in the mercury article] which made the point that as they could drop off spacecraft, any claim of finding microlife out there would be suspect - unless of course it evolved into something you could take to the pub with you!.
the article you quoted was at best speculative, and of course driven by a prior commitment to deep time and evolutionary process.

shimrod - round an round we go. we both have a faith position since you cling to unproven theories and ideas lacking any evidence whatever. I at least have a creator to posit, who is immaterial while you posit popping into existence from nothing via no one.
scientific - I don't think so!

musket - will do, but it must be much harder with your head in the sand!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 04:25 AM

"I believe in a God of revelation. I don't pretend that I can answer every theological problem, though I could go so far, but not the complete answer. that is where faith does come in."

Pete, it always amazes me that you are presumptious enough to 'criticise' the theories and findings of modern science (mainly because they are, necessarily, incomplete) when all that you can come up with is bull-shitty, pious 'faith-based' waffle such as the quote above!

So, pete, let's try again:

Who or what made God?
What materials did the God-maker use?
Where did God gets his materials from?

Remember, I won't be convinced by piety or pleas of ineffability. If you want to wallow in the obscurantist drivel in an old book, then so be it! But you can't stand on some lofty pinnacle and hurl rocks down on the constructions of modern science whilst, at the same time, not allowing your own inflexible beliefs to be open to scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 03:06 AM

Here's looking at you too sweetums xxx

Ah. A lady of taste. I don't know why the rest of the crèche can't see how wonderfully observant she is? Got me weighed up for starters.

Hey pete! Keep banging the rocks together!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 02:58 PM

On the biochemical origins of life, I recall watching a number of science programs on the tube (Nova and such) dealing with "black smokers," volcanic vents at the bottoms of the oceans. Many of them along the mid-Atlantic ridge and in the Pacific where volcanic activity is pushing tectonic plates apart.

The water temperatures around these "black smokers" is in the range of about 700 degrees. At sea level, water boils at 212 degrees, but the water pressure at a depth of several miles makes it possible for water temperature to rise to staggering heights without the water actually boiling.

NO form of life should be able to exist at this temperature and pressure. Yet—the density of living organisms, from micro-organisms to crustaceans to giant "tube worms" is staggering! Any life form coming from more temperate environments would be killed before it got there, so—where did these life-forms come from!??

From an article in Wikipedia:

Hydrothermal origin of life:

Günter Wächtershäuser (German biochemist—DF) proposed the iron-sulfur world theory and suggested that life might have originated at hydrothermal vents [Emphasis mine—DF]. Wächtershäuser proposed that an early form of metabolism predated genetics. By metabolism he meant a cycle of chemical reactions that release energy in a form that can be harnessed by other processes.

It has been proposed that amino-acid synthesis could have occurred deep in the Earth's crust and that these amino-acids were subsequently shot up along with hydrothermal fluids into cooler waters, where lower temperatures and the presence of clay minerals would have fostered the formation of peptides and protocells. This is an attractive hypothesis because of the abundance of CH4 (methane) and NH3 (ammonia) present in hydrothermal vent regions, a condition that was not provided by the Earth's primitive atmosphere. A major limitation to this hypothesis is the lack of stability of organic molecules at high temperatures, but some have suggested that life would have originated outside of the zones of highest temperature. There are numerous species of extremophiles and other organisms currently living immediately around deep-sea vents, suggesting that this is indeed a possible scenario.

Not only does this imply that, given the right conditions, Life can be created biochemically, but it also implies that one does not necessarily need Earthlike conditions on alien planets for life to have developed there.

Because some of the conditions on Jupiter are similar to conditions found near hydrothermal vents in the Earth's oceans, there may be life on Jupiter.

Probably wouldn't be able to join it at the local pub for a pint, but there nevertheless!

This is one fascinating Universe. I'm sorry to say, far more varied and interesting than anything suggested in the Bible. But then, those who penned the original scrolls thought the "Heavens and Earth" were much, MUCH smaller and more limited than they really are!

And Creationists' idea of this whole, vast Cosmos seems to be circumscribed to what they can see while peering through a keyhole.

Full Wiki article HERE.

Don Firth

P. S. Another pretty interesting article here:   Loki's Castle.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 01:15 PM

thankyou don, it shows grace to concede a point to another less learned.
I confess that I am hazy as to whether it makes much difference to the bible timeline if there is an oort cloud or not, but I understand that oort predicted his cloud, not because it had any evidence for it, but because deep time required something to rescue it from the contrary evidence.
if God had not revealed to us something of how and when he created, it might indeed border on blasphemous to postulate on it. he has however revealed it ,and I would say the blasphemy lies nearer the door of the evolutionist.
reading your claim that one cell organism was accomplished, I was doubtful, and reading keiths post I remembered why.
he , however has a lot of faith that something so far ,impossible will happen. and lets not forget that this is with already existing components and intelligent imput!
is the vastness of space a waste of space should it be uninhabited elsewhere?
well I don't presume to know the mind of God on this!
but to venture a suggestion, as ps 19v1 says-
"the heavens declare the glory of God....."
it reminds me of the craftsmanship in inaccessible heights of cathedrals- no one would see it but GOD ,whom the craftsman presumably wished to praise. and when science delves ever deeper beyond, and within, it ought to bring him the greater praise.
those big balls of gas however are much less complex than the cell, the complexity of which ,with its mini factories conveying and duplicating
information defy the evolutionary mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 05:44 AM

That means there was nearly 1300 crap, judgmental, pseudo intellectual examples of unadulterated bilge, put out by the usual ginger woosy, cake eating crate eggs like shaw, the big baby wizzjet , the deranged gnomett,, Herr kieth@hatefilled dot com, seaman staynes.

Mind you amongst all this self opinionated nonsense there is the occasional gem of well reasoned criticism from the likes of me sweet bay muskett and of course not forgetting myself,,,


A very special Merry Xmas sweetbunsxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 02:10 AM

1300!
Just amino acids.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 02:09 AM

No.
I am sure it will be, but not yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 06:40 PM

Keith, according to Carl Sagan and a number of biochemists, it has been demonstrated, many times.

I'll see if I can find a link.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 05:25 PM

add energy—such as sunlight—and this—amazingly enough but demonstrably true—can produce one-celled living organisms. Life!

Not demonstrated yet.

but it is possible to produce living, one-celled organisms in the laboratory
Possibly, but never yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 04:05 PM

Fair point, pete. Voyager 1 still has a way to go before it will pass through the Oort Cloud. I'm afraid I was confusing the Kuiper Belt with the Oort Cloud. This is where comets come from.

But—halos (or Oort Clouds) have been observed around other stars. In fact it is inconceivable that a star could form without leaving a large cloud of matter that didn't get caught up sufficiently in the new-formed star's gravitational pull to the center, but is still sufficiently trapped by gravity to orbit the star.

Why does this in any way contradict anything in the Bible? I don't see your problem.

Observations of the skies with the new orbital telescopes have revealed that the vast majority of the "billions and billions" of stars in the Cosmos are what are known as "main sequence" stars, neither giants nor dwarfs, and that well over 100 of the nearest stars have planets orbiting them. Just statistically, some of those planets will be earth-like, terrestrial worlds, in the "temperate zone" (between the freezing and boiling point of water) to have atmospheres, and, indeed, oceans.

In which Life can evolve!

In the novel, Contact, written by Carl Sagan, then movie starring Jodie Foster as Ellie Arroway, director of a SETI project, said when a group of school children asked her if there were life on other planets, "The universe is a pretty big place. It's bigger than anything anyone has ever dreamed of before. So if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space. Right?"

Take a stew of organic chemicals, such as those found in watery areas all over the world and add energy—such as sunlight—and this—amazingly enough but demonstrably true—can produce one-celled living organisms. Life! And at this point, the process of evolution can begin.

It sounds a bit "Frankensteinian," but it is possible to produce living, one-celled organisms in the laboratory, in a beaker full of chemicals that include carbon by in-putting a bit of energy. Sometimes even bumping the beaker is sufficient to get the reactions going. True, nothing has come crawling up out of the beaker and said "Take me to your leader," but Life nevertheless!

This is demonstrable and repeatable.

And it's at this point that evolution, natural selection, and "the survival of the fittest" can begin.

This same process can take place on ANY planet with essentially earthlike characteristics (and perhaps others, but that is, as yet, uncertain). So it's simply illogical—and small-minded—to assume Life is confined to one planet only in this incredibly vast Cosmos.

One of the problems with Creationists is that they make the somewhat (I would think!) blasphemous assumption that the Almighty, All-Powerful God they worship is only capable of coping with one small planet and has to keep tinkering with the doings of His living creations.

If this vast Cosmos in which we live were, indeed, created by an Almighty Omniscient Intelligence, He, She, or It is so far beyond our knowledge—even our ability to comprehend—that claiming to know the Mind of God is the rankest of blasphemies.

Don Firth