BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 11:56 AM

""Actually I do have an idea who might hide behind that mask; the elves can check the IP addresses and pronounce their usual warnings (as they did long ago when someone else posted from my computer).""

Hmmmm!

Who else do we know, who has claimed to be victimised by some unknown person using his computer to post untruths?

If such were the case, all that the elves could ascertain is the fact that it was your computer.

They could not ascertain whose fingers were on the keyboard.

They might warn others that it might not be you, but that would be mere opinion unsupported by evidence, and therefore meaningless.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM

Don't shout at me wizjet there really is no need.


I always thought you had something missing in your sad life how I am sure.

if not posting religions texts is addressing the point I don't know what is. as the last one did no good try this one:


"It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees": .psalm 119:71

Bless you

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 01:02 PM

" I'd be interested in hearing your ideas about "the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is", concepts..."

A bit much for a single post!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 01:53 PM

Dave,

Without knowledge of who you really are how are we to know that you are not one of the anonymous guests who causes so much disruption on here?

You cannot, and could not even if you knew my complete personal record. All you can do is read messages and make conclusions - check for meaning, connotations, ways of reasoning, consistency, style, etc. Whoever asks anybody to trust her or him blindly, is definitely not trustworthy.

For example, how do I know that Conc is a fake? He has suddenly learned how to spell - behold, a miracle! If you are interested, you can compare his newly found writing style with other posters'; you may not have to go very far. I guess he has been inspired by Musket's "Mr Hyde" mask, to shout out his frustration. Presumably the fun is as limited as the success, in either case.

Don,

>> (as they did long ago when someone else posted from my computer)

A friend of mine visited me and posted an excellent message from my IP address, but under a GUEST nickname different from "Grishka" - we were enjoined to use a consistent nickname. Schizophrenia, innit? I wonder if Conc has taken precautions.

Shimrod, my opinion is easy to find, for people who know how to read more than one sentence. Conc's is even easier to spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerend
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 02:29 PM

Ah!! the guest was me..........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 02:51 PM

No you prat. Musket is Dr Jekyl. Ian is Mr Hyde.

Just want to clarify.

In any case I would prefer to be addressed as Co Messiah M. Take your lead from our associated gnome.

Sorry I can't do biblical references or quotes. The only one I know, and then courtesy of Mike Harding is "lo, the roar of Moses' s Triumph could be heard throughout Israel. " (Corinthians 23 St Helens 12.) I assume it was a bonneville from before 1964 when the brake and gear pedal were on the opposite sides and the engine was 650 rather than 750.

About my sum knowledge I'm afraid. And even that is dubious.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 04:04 PM

I thought it was a TR4 - Moses came down the mountain in his Triumph. Ah well, just goes to show what I know...

Yes Grishka. No-one knows for sure, but the more transparent you are the more people will believe you. As to people using multiple IDs, well, as far as I know, you have been the only one in this discussion who has been found out in this. Even if you did find excuses later. There is no need to "check for meaning, connotations, ways of reasoning, consistency, style, etc.". Just let your suspicions be known to the mods. and they will slap anyone who is performing such shenanigans. As you well know.

As for Conc's spelling. Quite simple really. His warders have shown him how to cut and paste. It has been known before.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 04:30 PM

Darwin was in the unenviable position of having to persuade a sceptical scientific community and potentially hostile religious forces that evolution is a self-evident fact, even before the explanation of it that the theory provides, and he knew full well that it was. The next step was the articulation of his theory. A theory that has subsequently provided, as science advances, a persuasive explanation of how evolution happens. He doubted at many junctures the efficacy of his theory, honest scientist that he was, but not the fact of evolution. You are seriously confused about this but you refuse to abandon the somewhat rickety construction that you desperately need in order to stay at odds with me. Weird. And obsessive. Not looking good, Snailo.

Stu: Although we can't say for 100% evolution is true, we can say it's as near a dammit that it has occurred and is occurring.

You: Fine by me but that is fundamentally different from saying it is true.

So you're saying there there is a possibility that evolution doesn't happen. Poor thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM

Dave, I did not make any excuses then or later. However, I could hardly be "astroturfing", given that so few other messages support mine - and even fewer do so in words that I can possibly find helpful. Mudcat rule is: those who object might reply, those who agree are likely just to nod silently.

Again: people should never believe blindly what others write. My messages, like all others, should be judged by their own collective weight, not by any other credentials. A Ph.D., for example, however credible, will be of no use if the messages are not of matching quality.

(Like many of us, I have several reasons to keep my RL identity largely to myself, not primarily to avoid being stalked by Mudcatters.)—

Conc copy-and-pasting? Would work for the Bible, but the where on earth could the rest be copied from??

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM

Grishka. I won't even pretend to understand more than half of the first paragraph. Which brings me to the second.

If your messages are to be judged purely by their 'own collective weight' then I am afraid that, for me, you fall far short of the quality you seem to expect in others. I know my posts are confused or confusing at times but I do not pretend to be doing any serious research or articulating anything deep or meaningful. You have no credentials at all I'm afraid and life is too short to try and figure out if you are one of the good guys by analysing your sometimes obscure proclamations.

On the positive side, I do like the last bit. Is it supposed to be ironic or do you really not know where things are copied from? Either way, gave me a laugh.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 02:04 AM

I have to stick to the motorbike side to be fair. I passed my driving test in a Triumph Acclaim and still get flashbacks. That said I remain a 50% owner of a Stag. Sadly in bits but one day. ...

Sorry. What were we all talking about again?

Oh right. I reckon, forgive me if I am wrong, that Grishka is trying to say that you should be judged by your words not your credentials.

Fine by me.

However, speaking as a co Messiah I can say that anything I post on the subject of the God concept is, by either credentials or otherwise, at least as accurate as anything said by The Archbishop of Canterbury, the Pope, Joe Offer or Richard Bloody Dawkins.

There's a reason for that.

And it ain't my exalted position as a co Messiah. Or indeed a co very naughty boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM

Dave (29 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM),

Astroturfing: posting under various nicknames/IDs in order to fake a "grassroots movement". The least plausible of all the wrongdoings I have been accused of.—

you fall far short of the quality you seem to expect in others.

If you think about this statement, considering that I do not give any external credentials, it turns into a self-contradiction. If you mean "Some of your statements look deep and meaningful, but I do not understand them immediately, and I do not know whether it is worth my while to think about them" - fair enough (as opposed to believing them), but you would not be much better off if you knew my name and address. You can ask me and others for explanations, or just watch how the thread proceeds.

If you promise me not to expose me publicly, I'll tell you a secret: I don't understand everything either, and I don't feel I have to.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 06:40 AM

Yes, that is what I mean, Grishka but I can only go round in circles so long and will only spend a limited amount of time trying to figure out what people are saying. Please feel free to carry on. You win.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:44 AM

"So you're saying there there is a possibility that evolution doesn't happen. Poor thing."

Not sure who that's addressed to, but there is a tiny, minute, minuscule, infinitesimally small chance that we have collectively misinterpreted the evidence, and as a scientist you have to accept that. However, there is no other way of explaining how speciation occurs and how new organisms appear, and so far the evidence is indisputable and there is no competing theory that comes close to evolution (although the mechanisms are still hotly debated).

So to all intents and purposes, evolution is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM

I don't know when mE have had so much fun..the pomposity of the frauds and phoneys on this thread am nearly outweighed by their pretensions of acaDemia...get a life springs to mind;

Youm was more fun when you was rising to mI bait and trying to out do yourselves in insulting mI spelling and Mi grammar;

Now we have this mystic grishka whose credentials, to say the least, are suspect to I .I verily believe he is a bigger troll than you think mE am with his Sherlock Holmesing posturing, his half arsed opinions and his smoke screening..

now even seaman staynes nautical crap is looking more entertaining to I...

Dear hEarts, please get a grip before me bankrupt myself with bulk orders of crayons9

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:09 PM

Not sure who that's addressed to, but there is a tiny, minute, minuscule, infinitesimally small chance that we have collectively misinterpreted the evidence, and as a scientist you have to accept that. However, there is no other way of explaining how speciation occurs and how new organisms appear, and so far the evidence is indisputable and there is no competing theory that comes close to evolution (although the mechanisms are still hotly debated).

So to all intents and purposes, evolution is true.

No worries, Stu, that was squarely addressed to Snail. Of course we may have misinterpreted everything and there is that minuscule chance that evolution does not happen. But that's about as likely as the existence of God/seven-legged little blue men living on Saturn's rings/a duff bottle of Hirondelle. I live my life in a practical manner assuming that those things don't happen. To all intents and purposes, those things do not occur, though I'm open to philosophical arguments ripe to be shot down. If we can't accept that evolution is true and that my left testicle is to the left of my right testicle, then we might as well abandon the word "true" altogether. But it's a good word so I'm not quite up for doing that, philosophers with time on their hands notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:41 PM

too late to post much but-
Darwin admitted that the data he collected to formulate his idea could as well be otherwise interpreted.
you are still equivocating. evolutionism is not the same thing as natural selection, which is part of the creationist model ,and was pre-Darwin.
I don't think any of stu's examples of evolutionism being of use to operational science are demonstrated to fulfil that promise.

I do not recall any hateful lanquage used about homosexuals in akenatons posts. disagreement does not constitute homophobia, and if he is correct in his statistical analysis ,he is being more caring than the PC brigade, whatever stonewall might say about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:47 PM

Do continue to talk through your brainless creationist arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 03:04 AM

I know you don't read much pete. That's why you may not have read some of the hate stuff.

Is is therefore pete or a general Christian thing to want to force all, not some but all gay men to be put on a register and tested against their own free will for sexually transmitted disease. Bear in mind that 70% of all STDs are carried by heterosexual people, sadly mainly young women with chlamydia. .

Also bear in mind a test is not a cure. Assuming for one minute his wish came true, there would be no health benefits. Just a government owned list of gay people and you would be breaking the law if you didn't appear on their list.

Please read what he puts before defending hatred. It doesn't come over as being very Christian, ,unless your church tells you to not see gay people as equal?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 04:29 AM

ok musket I read your reasoning, and agree that that suggestion, if accurate does seem discrimatory. I still , however suspect that you make an unwarranted assumption that hateful motive is behind it.

I was asked about- yea challenged- to give examples of creationist thinking advancing science.
dr russel Humphries made predictions about mercury and Neptune based on a creationist model, which was massively more accurate than evolutionist predictions when voyager space craft passed those planets.
vestigial organs, stu?. sorry if that was unclear-
evolutionary thinking expected that there would be useless leftovers from the evolutionary process, and used to cite several.
we now know that they were wrong and that their Darwin bias thus hindered science.
same with dna - expected leftover junk, but increasingly shown to be erroneous.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 06:29 AM

Hi pete - welcome back!

I decided to read about the work of Dr Russell Humphries here:

http://www.icr.org/article/beyond-neptune-voyager-ii-supports-creation/   

(I can't seem to make the 'blue clicky' thingy work - so readers will have cut-n-paste the link into their browsers)

I note that this work was published in 1984 in a publication called 'Creation Research Society Quarterly' - "a peer-reviewed creationist scientific journal" (based in North America - surprise, surprise!). Forgive my scepticism, but I can't help noting that Russell's theory is based upon "God rapidly transform[ing] water into other materials" (and then a miracle happens!?).

Anyway, it's possible to contrast that account with a scientific view (as opposed to a quasi-religious view based on the Bible, God and miracles) of planetary magnetic fields here:

http://www.astronomynotes.com/solarsys/s7.htm

This account (in proper scientific fashion) freely admits that we've still got a lot to learn about planetary magnetic fields but nowhere does it suggest that we're desperate enough yet to invoke miracles or to shove God and the Bible into the gaps in our knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 09:59 AM

Ok. But if you take what I put, which by the way can be verified by reading his posts, just click on his name in any thread he has contaminated, not hard. You would be hard pressed to come up with any alternative.

I repeat. He wants compulsory testing and a register of one section of society based on choice of partner rather than clinical risk. Testing cannot lead to cure, so there is no point. It is already an offence to knowingly have unsafe sex if you have a sexually transmitted disease, so he fails to make a point.

Except where he says society is wrong to insist on gay rights... Or gay marriage.... Or gay existence....

The hate is there and whilst debate, piss taking and banter weave the tapestry of these BS threads, incitement to hate crime has no place. I would have loved to tackle him on his "we don't need science" post, but you know what? I can't bring myself to converse with him as an equal.

When I take the piss out of you, for instance, it is because I see you as an intelligent person capable of reason, but not exactly displaying it, and yes, I remain fascinated how religion can blinker people from reality and from where I sit, you are a prime example. Attempts to cloud the minds of children with superstition or impede our attempts to make sense of the universe should be shunned, but carry on making the case otherwise if you wish.

Just don't be surprised when people ridicule your arguments. Superstition is fine, but not as an influence on reality eh? If everybody had my faith in Sheffield Wednesday, there would be nobody to shout "Who are yer?" at, and other religions need people to give them the odd reality check too....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:11 PM

Have a listen to musket..a silly chap it is true, but he is the only one ( apart from me that is) that talks straight with no bullshit..Musket old bean, I applaud you( distant noise of clapping)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:45 PM

I can't help pointing out, 'concerened' that you've got a very wiggly, wibbly, wobbly, crooked, zig-zaggy way of "talking straight"!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket bashful
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:46 PM

Gee gosh {blush} etc

I'll raise a pint glass to your sound of distant clapping later. I'll raise a glass with any bugger to be honest. Been known to raise one to an empty room. I draw the line at lowlife bigots but everyone has a tolerance level.

You know. You don't have to be distant about your clap. Antibiotics are wonderful things, and you don't have to register with Akenhateon in order to get them.

Just one thing.... You say you are into straight talk yet I don't understand you?

Oh..

I'm thick as pig shit after all. Often wondered and all that.

Can we interest you in joining the true religion? Ok, you have to answer questions three and be prepared to grease up for the initiation courtesy of Betty Swollox, and the questions are asked by an associated gnome, yet you seem to have blotted your copy book somewhat with him.... But redeeming isn't just something you do with Nectar points. Co Messiah S is still looking for a reliable bingo caller and since Jerk went quiet, we need a trainee martyr.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM

"you are still equivocating. evolutionism is not the same thing as natural selection, which is part of the creationist model ,and was pre-Darwin."

Natural selection is one of the mechanisms of evolution (there are others). Evolutionism means nothing, so stop using the term.


"vestigial organs, stu?. sorry if that was unclear-
evolutionary thinking expected that there would be useless leftovers from the evolutionary process, and used to cite several.
we now know that they were wrong and that their Darwin bias thus hindered science. "

Er, do you mean vestigal organs or elements such as reduced limbs etc? All vertebrates are descended from a common ancestor and we have pretty much the same body plan and organs as the earliest deuterostome. Your creator was surprisingly lacking in the creative department, seeing as he has basically made many variations using a simple template. As for junk DNA, we're finding out about that now, and we change our minds when new evidence presents itself. That's called 'science' (repeats ad infinitum).

"more accurate than evolutionist predictions when voyager space craft passed those planets."

So now these mythical 'evolutionists' are directing the space programme now? They don't have get about a bit!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmelly known as concerened
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 04:18 PM

Well shitrod..rather a "very wiggly, wibbly, wobbly, crooked, zig-zaggy way of talking straight""
Than a very wiggly, wibbly, wobbly, crooked, zig-zaggy way of THINKING and straight"

Something that only you and the rest of the cake eating, pseudo academic, fence sitting, tepid centrist latchicos can sort out I'm afraid.(that is not including musket of course)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 04:43 PM

yet you seem to have blotted your copy book somewhat with him

No, not at all Messiah M. He just keeps making me change the job offer, which is a bit annoying but not insurmountable. At first it was editor in chief of the Yebbut, but he wrote a couple of words of sense so I had to withdraw that offer. Couple of other things that escape me at the moment. I think, at present, he is doing pretty well as the mad hermit that periodically comes in from the desert with insane ramblings that people think are the word of god. Doing pretty well at it if you could just see your way to convincing Grishka that it is not really you :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 05:20 PM

Wow! Thanks 'concerened' - I didn't know you cared!

Just remind me what a "latchico" is ...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the ar tist formally known as concerened
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 05:27 PM

No sooner said than done Shitroad old top!!

Latchico: Irish: A Fellow that is bad and is inclined to get worse.
Someone who is in a state of decline and not getting better..

About describes you lot to a T shitrod wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 05:50 PM

Ah,yes! It's all coming back to me now!

"It takes one latchico to know another latchico."

Which, I believe, was a well known phrase or saying in 18th century Connemara (translated from the Erse, of course).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM

credit shimrod for looking it up. however both you and stu are passing off the predictive success of humphriess, by a little mockery.

tell you what , stu. you just write "creation" and i'll try and reciprocate by writing "evolution". you want the ism left off,- you do the same.
"simple template..."? certainly there are similarities but template seems to be somewhat of an exaggeration, and in some instances way off mark. I understand that in some cultures similarities are honoured as a mark of ownership, and there is certainly no obligation for a creator to pander to groundless scepticism.
natural selection may be one of the mechanisms of evolutionism but is powerless to turn microbes to man over however long. mutations have not been demonstrated either to create the new information needed to facilitate the evolutionary pathway. dawkins could not think of any when he was asked to give an example. what few questionable examples are around fall far short of whats needed.do you know of any definite examples?
I suggest that using natural selection / mutations as evidence of Darwinism of whatever variety is misleading equivocation.
- also called switch and bait.

musket- you may not be surprised to know that I don't like superstitious religious ideas being taught to our kids as fact, under the guise of science, but I am quite happy for Darwin to be taught as an alternative to creation, as long as they are given the complete picture. at present it is taught as certain fact despite only being an interpretation of data, as Darwin himself admitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM

" ... however both you and stu are passing off the predictive success of humphriess, by a little mockery."

But, pete, real scientists don't tend to invoke miraculous transformations in the middle of their work. Any real scientist who did so wouldn't get his work published in any reputable journal and would quite probably be laughed at!

You can't have it both ways, you know. You can't continually bang on about supposed holes in scientific accounts of natural phenomena while at the same time turning a blind eye when one of your own lamely and ludicrously invokes miracles to fill gaps in his one of his accounts!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 07:43 PM

For further reading about one main theorem of evolution theory, I recommend this Wiki article - follow the links there at liberty. The paragraph about the "London Underground mosquito" will also be attractive in the context of our discussion about British culture ;-).

Pete and all others, you are welcome to point us to websites explaining your views. This will save us all a lot of copy-and-pasting and inaccurate summarizing. No one of us will be able to add a new point to the scientific discussion.

But perhaps you, Pete, can tell us whether you believe that the protagonists of evolution theory are just too stupid to understand those deductions that you recognize as logical, or have never heard of them, or form a conspiracy to erode true Christianity?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 09:29 PM

natural selection may be one of the mechanisms of evolutionism

No, thickie, it's one of the mechanisms of evolution. Do shed your hate.

but is powerless to turn microbes to man over however long.

Well now, this is complicated. Evolution does not need power because it has no goals. As for "however long", well three and a half billion years is, I presume, something you can't get your head round, seein' as 'ow you're one o'them young-earthers.

mutations have not been demonstrated either to create the new information needed to facilitate the evolutionary pathway.

Yes they have. I've been over all that before but you're stupid and insulting enough to think I'll forget. It's just that it's too hard for you to understand, and you'd much rather chunder out these snippets of received unwisdom than do any serious thinking or looking-up, you laziest of lazy bastards.

dawkins could not think of any when he was asked to give an example.

Utter misrepresentational bollocks. You're dishonest as well as stupid and lazy. I bet you forget all the words to your songs as well. Which might well be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:18 AM

"But perhaps you, Pete, can tell us whether you believe that the protagonists of evolution theory are just too stupid to understand those deductions that you recognize as logical, or have never heard of them, or form a conspiracy to erode true Christianity?"

Yes, pete, which is it: mass stupidity or anti-Christian conspiracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:25 AM

I see evidence for evolution all over the place. Or at least. (And this is the clincher) I observe what is explained by no alternative theory.

I also observe genuine well meaning people praying at the bedside in a children's hospice yet the goodbye room (not heated) is in use most days.

Such perspective allows you to draw your own conclusions over the power of reality over the delusion of superstition. Ironically the delusion that lets people down is the same one that then gives them comfort and strength.

Looks like Shimrod is wrong. Christians can indeed have it both ways...

I finally got around to watching the sad but compelling Stephen Fry two part series on being gay last night. The common link in persecution seems to be hiding homophobia in a cloak of religion.   Uganda had a pastor who said rape of a woman was better than consenting sex between two men in the eye of God. A government minister is still trying to get parliament to legislate the death sentence for being gay and has outlawed medical charities combating HIV in the (large) gay community. Presumably including the lesbian who was corrective raped at 14 to cure her of her budding sexuality. That she fell pregnant and was HIV+ from the ordeal being here nor there. Oh, the minister is an ex Catholic priest. ...   In Iran they are hanging people for being gay. God wants it apparently. In California a church group is charging parents thousands of dollars to cure your teenage offspring of the sin. Usually ending up with deep phycosis and lifelong mental health issues.

So... remind me.   How awful are these militant atheists this and other threads warn us about? Bigotry devalues humanity and I for one don't want to be associated with turning the clock back on human social evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:19 AM

'ere, Messiah M, you are right you know and it was a mighty co-incidence (read 'hand of god') that the words 'plenary indulgence' popped into my head unannounced this morning. I was pondering on how to make more money for our church when said phrase sprang to mind. I remembered my history lessons when various clergy used used to sell time off in purgatory using these plenary indulgences. Now, the Catholic church has disassociated with all such things which leaves a gap in the market.

Anyone who is feeling guilty about their perfectly normal sexuality due to bigotry induced psychosis should come to us. For £20 or so we can sell them a plenary indulgence or, better still, an aabsolute pardon. Now, you may think this is cynical preying on the vulnerable but that is far from the truth. What we are offering is a service and services should be paid for. What is more we are far cheaper than a trick cyclist, we remove all the guilt and fear of punishment and considering the number of people who have had their lives ruined by other religions we could make a bomb.

Sorted!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 07:24 AM

Yeah but only if we can screen applicants. One I can think of, we'd have to give him his money back when we fail to inhibit the bigotry gene. Handing over money in leiu of becoming a respectable member of society isn't the answer. Make the buggers come forward for compulsory screening and cure. That's the way!

We can of course plagiarise their technique. Blame their father etc and their lack of belief in our collection box.

You know, the only thing that concerns me is the feeling that starting a religion would have a purpose.

Oh.

Silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 11:10 AM

"natural selection may be one of the mechanisms of evolutionism but is powerless to turn microbes to man over however long"

The whole of evolutionary theory summed up in one sentence. You can't boil the whole of evolution into a single sentence as Steve said. Get specific if you want to challenge the theory. Give me details!

"do you know of any definite examples?"

What? Of a microbe evolving into a man? You know what, you've stumped me there.


The thing is Pete, it's getting increasingly difficult to discuss this with you for several reasons:

1) You do not listen.

2) You make no attempt to understand.

3) You appear to read what other people say who share your point of view and accept it unquestioningly.

4) You're not really interested in discourse between religion and science as it threatens your world view.

5) You have made no attempt to accept science as a process of seeking fundamental truth.

6) Disturbingly, you believe the Bible literally which means:

(a) You believe the heavens were created in one day.

(b) The earth and everything on it was made in days after.

(c) Man has dominion over every living thing (an evil notion to be sure).

(d) You should stone people to death for cussing their parents

(e) A bloke was swallowed by a whale, he survived then was puked up.

(f) Everyone who has ever believed in any other god apart from your god who has ever lived is wrong.

(g) A man could walk on water (apart from Paul Lambert).

(h) The death penalty for these things (amongst others):

(aa) Being the victim of rape.

(bb) homosexuality (a normal variant of human sexuality).

(cc) Blasphemy

(dd) Being a stubborn and rebellious son

(ee) breaking the sabbath (Whichever sabbath you believe in)

(ff) worshiping idols (go figure)

etc etc

. . . and so on. All that is before we even get to murdered kids to appease this kind and gentle god, all the people he personally visited suffering on and killed in the flood and other god-made punishments. All things that if you believe the bible is literally the word of god like wot he says it then you must condone, as he is infallible. Are you really comfortable with that?

So you'll forgive me if I wonder if there is a slight problem with rationality here amongst the creationist/literalist. It might explain the lack of wanting to engage in reasonable discussion.

I'm mean, you couldn't make it up could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 03:20 PM

shimrod- best I can see ,most of the creationist reasoning appeals to natural processes with the exception being the creation event itself.
that is not to say of course that other miraculous events following in the bible have to be explained naturalistically .if I am going to believe in God, surely it is senseless to think that he be unable to facilitate the creation event, provide a sea creature able to swallow and vomit a prophet, and raise the Saviour from the dead, among other things recorded in scripture.
so I say again - what you posit are events and processes that are contrary to known science.
something from nothing via no one
miracle without miracle maker.
who is he that wants it both ways?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:06 PM

So why didn't he stop the whale from swallowing the bloody prophet in the firt place?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:07 PM

Grrr first grrr

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:22 PM

grishka- I read the main article and some of the links, to see if there was anything beyond the assertions of the first text,- which was merely dogmatic interpretation of data.
I admit to being surprised by whale legs but was not disappointed to find that this had been covered in CMI site eg- strange tale of the whales leg.
as to charges of stupidity,- that is usually evolutionist/atheist language. witness your co-believer under your post.
I think that there are a number of reasons why evolutionists embrace their belief. it is assumed as fact, peer pressure, not being exposed to counter evidence, culturally imbibed , and in some cases there is a drive to discredit biblical Christianity. I also believe there is spiritual blindness bought on by the devil, and human rebellion against God.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 05:02 PM

human social evolution...musket?
not sure what exactly that is, but since you like to highlight Christian and other religious abuses, perhaps we should include evolutions atrocities in Nazi Germany, USSR, n. korea, abuses and murders of Australian aboriginies for experimentation, and abortion of demand - after all Darwinism has shown us that we are only re -arranged pond scum, rather than the dignity of being the creation of God !?.
is that going to bring any solace to the parents of children in palliative care. to your credit you have previously acknowledged the value of hospital chaplains ,even though you personally refuse Christian faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 05:27 PM

so, stu, you ask me for specifics whilst not giving any yourself.
I did not think I was that unclear.
just give me an example please, of an unquestionable case of a mutation conferring new information, as opposed to losing,rearranging or perhaps duplicating .
here is something specific and basic to the grand theory of evolution.
life has only been demonstrated to come from life.
the idea that it did happen can only be accepted by faith.
sounds like a religious position to me.

though I could comment on all your bullet points ,I would be taking a lot of time that could be better used.
you make it increasingly difficult to discuss anything with you by piling up point scoring snippets. I think I covered enough for the time being.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 05:29 PM

"Something from nothng via no-one."

You hate that thought, don't you pete? But just because you hate it doesn't make it wrong. Postulating a maker merely leads to more questions, for example:

- Where did the maker get his materials from?

- Where did the maker come from?

- What is the maker made of?

- Who made the maker?

- Who made the maker's maker etc., etc., etc.

You see? Doesn't solve anything! Unless, of course, your faith prohibits you from asking such questions? In which case:

- You're a big cheat like Barry(?) Humphries the "God does miracles to get me out of the shit" pillock.

- There's no point in discussing this any further because I'm not playing by your rules!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:58 PM

Pete (01 Nov 13 - 04:22 PM), good to see that you still have a firm grip on the flag. It would be too sad otherwise.

Please link us to a website that has the scientific details to your satisfaction. We know that you will oppose all other theories, so you can spare your words of protest. As I wrote, I see no point in discussing science here at all.

However, your views about the motives of scientists and theologians may be interesting.

By CMI, you mean "chronic mental illness"? You consider that more polite than "stupid"? Do you doubt that whales have leg bones (- which question could be answered easily and conclusively by any Japanese whale butcher)?

Those "evolutionists" (including the majority of Christian theologians) who know about your completely logical evidence, can either understand it or not. Those who do not, must be worse scientists than yourself - presumably the minority, since you do not claim to be an outstanding scientist.

Thus, you seem to be saying that a large number of scientists consciously act against their own better knowledge. Did I understand that correctly?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 08:01 PM

I am not sure, grishka, whether you misread me or just being sarcastic.
CMI- is creation ministries international [creation.com]. I find most of my info there.
I have no idea if many scientists act against their better knowledge, but I do know that a good many don't believe Darwinism.
I do believe that many only allow an interpretation of evidence that supports their a priori position. I would say that was mostly not consciously ,for the reasons I previously gave.
occasionally there have been deliberate deceivers ,imo, such as hackyls fraudulent embryo drawings , still sadly in some textbooks recently.

I have answered those before, shimrod. you don't accept my answers. that's your prerogative, but you are still left with no explanation.
at least I have something to posit. your rules are material explanations only . I don't play by your rules either.
best wishes    pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 09:35 PM

Oh you who would indulge pete... he has demonstrated in the last several posts that he he is no more than fascist scum. I knew it all along, but now I must thank him for making it plain to the rest of us.