BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 03:41 AM

"I have answered those before, shimrod. you don't accept my answers."

No you didn't, pete! All you did before was to fob me off with some pious claptrap about ineffability. Scientists don't do ineffable.

"CMI- is creation ministries international [creation.com]. I find most of my info there."

So you don't cast your net any wider then, pete? Why not? Are you afraid that you might learn something that might prick your ridiculous 'spiritual comfort bubble'?

"I do believe that many only allow an interpretation of evidence that supports their a priori position."

Words fail me at this point!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 04:23 AM

Best to chip away at small chunks. Be specific. That way, nobody gets to move in mysterious ways.

pete says that I support chaplaincy yet denounce Christianity. So do about a third of our chaplaincy team you prat. Two Imams, a Rabbi and a man from the Sikh temple nearby are on the rota list, and we can access through them leaders of other faiths.

They have something in common. They can and do all speak with and offer comfort to people of different and no faith. The listener, the empathiser, the friend you never realised you had. The person who speaks with many patients and can help you put perspective to your own anxiety. The well connected helper who can have a word, advocating on your behalf with a multitude of community assets.

Occasionally they will pray with you. If that is what you want. The psychological benefits of prayer are well documented. However, mind over matter and all that. It can only bring comfort if you believe it to.

What is known in reality circles as the placebo effect.

If you want to pray, pray for those being oppressed by religious zealots and manipulators of simple religious folk. Pray for gay people in countries where they are a distraction for failing governments. Ditto if your faith, colour or gender goes against you.

Whatever you do. Try not to pray for your own comfort. That belies the vanity of supposed pious people.

Who aren't really pious at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:05 AM

Excellent, Pete. I did not know about your CMI, but now that I do, your statement makes sense: whenever you see something related to evolution theory, you feel obliged to have the refute ready, as given by Creation Ministries International. A fascinating website, featuring a brief Q-and-A page. The principal claim seems to be "Science cannot disprove anything in the Bible, whereas the CMI can show that some claims of some evolutionists are intrinsically absurd, recognizable for anyone capable of logic, regardless of one's faith".

Now scientists frequently disagree among each other on their hypothesizing interpretations of specific observations. It is therefore easy to see that at least one of the hypotheses must be effectively wrong. However, if they can be caught to be intrinsically contradictory, in other words defying formal logic, opponents within the scientific community would be happy to point that out. If they fail to do so, they fail their own interest; if the assert the opposite, they also act against their better knowledge.

I am not sure whether the CMI claims the fundamental theorems of modern science to be intrinsically contradictory or just incompatible with Bible literalism. The conflicting theorems include the very foundations of physics, chemistry, and genetics, far beyond controversial aspects of evolution theory, let alone incidental facts such as whales' legs. Most of the Wiki article I mentioned is merely incidental (and possibly inaccurate), meant to be illustrative for readers who do not want to delve deeper into science.

Consequently, the CMI followers should insist that their children be taught Biblical physics, chemistry, geology, geography, bio-chemistry, and biology.

To be sure, conspiracies in sciences (and elsewhere) do occur, and so does stubborn insistence on preformed ideas in spite of evidence. Generally, older ideas have a huge head start on new ones, but exceptions are imaginable. What I have never seen is such a giant conspiracy, covering not only the scientific establishment, but an overwhelming majority of theologians (often reluctantly sacrificing their personal inclination, and even defying pressure from their superiors!) and other philosophers, many of whom have proved independent thinkers on other subjects.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 09:00 AM

Steve Shaw

Darwin was in the unenviable position of having to persuade a sceptical scientific community and potentially hostile religious forces that evolution is a self-evident fact

You seem to be working to a curious definition of self-evident. Why do you need to persuade someone of the self-evident? Anyway, that is not what Darwin did in the passage I drew attention to. He didn't say "Look, here is some evolution. Look, here is some more.", he said "Look, this is what Lamark said about the descent of species from other species. This is what Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire said about species being 'various degenerations of the same type'. Here is what the Dean of Manchester (Yes!) said. Here is what Professor Grant said." and many more. He is not putting over the self-evident fact of evolution, he is putting over the idea of evolution as the explanation of the facts we see before us. What we do see is the living world in all its glory and the fossilized remains of living organisms of the past. It IS self-evident that some organisms are strikingly similar while others are utterly different. Until the early nineteenth century, It was generally believed that each species had been separately created and that the extinct species had been lost in the flood. The NEW idea was that existing species are, as Darwin put it, " the descendants by true generation of pre-existing forms". I think that you and I can agree on which we think is the best explanation. Darwin did not say that evolution was self-evident so, by your analysis, he is a fool.

So you're saying there there is a possibility that evolution doesn't happen.

Well, I was quoting Stu but yes, that is exactly what I am saying because that is how science works. As soon as you say that a theory or an idea (which evolution is) is "true" it stops being science and becomes belief.

I'm open to philosophical arguments ripe to be shot down

No you aren't. You dismiss them as "philosophical carpings". "ripe to be shot down"?! Who do we trust, Professor Sir Karl Popper, Fellow of the Royal Society, Fellow of the British Academy or Steve Shaw, retired schoolmaster of Bude? You still haven't responded to my requests for your comments on Stu's suggestion to pete that he "do some work though to familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is". Advice you could follow yourself.

Grishka

Thanks for the link to the Wikipedia article about "Evidence of common descent". Interesting stuff.

Musket

I see evidence for evolution all over the place. Or at least. (And this is the clincher) I observe what is explained by no alternative theory.

Sounds good. You'd better make it clear whether you mean Evolution or Darwin's Theory of Evolution though. Steve gets very annoyed about that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 09:41 AM

What is self-evident is that evolution takes place. Self-evident means that you don't need to be a genius, or even a scientist, to see it (whether you recognise it or care about it is a different matter). What is not self-evident is the explanations of its mechanisms. If something is self-evident it means you'd be a fool to deny it. This is why, among many other reasons, pete is a fool. Back to those testicles. It is self-evident that the right testicle is to the right of the left testicle. It does not take science, or a genius, to work it out because it doesn't need any working out. It's just there, just like evolution. If you're the kind of "philosopher" who would waste time arguing that I can't prove that the right testicle is to the right of the left testicle, or that testicles might not even exist at all, then you're not worth the bother. Evolution has been going on for a lot longer than we humans have been thinking about it, therefore it is a nonsense to suggest that we can have a valid opinion that it does not occur. The fact of evolution is nothing to do with science. The explanation of the fact is where all the science lies. Now Dave suggested we went back to talking bollocks so you will note that I am honouring that call literally. And possibly also not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM

"though I could comment on all your bullet points ,I would be taking a lot of time that could be better used.
you make it increasingly difficult to discuss anything with you by piling up point scoring snippets. I think I covered enough for the time being."

My post was a deliberate attempt to demonstrate the worthlessness of petty point scoring. That you won't address it point by point says more about how you are willing to communicate your faith than it does about me writing it, and I didn't for a second believe you would address a word of it. You rather unfairly accused me of equivocation only to equivocate yourself - again.

My position is utterly clear: I believe science is the best philosophical system we have for learning the fundamental truth of the nature of ourselves and our universe. It's not perfect, but nearly everyone I have met in the course of my research have been generous, honest and genuinely curious, and are great people to spend time with. I don't believe in any gods, but I don't rule them out either, I simply require evidence of their existence and a single source is not enough to convince me of anything at all, let alone the existence of a supernatural being.

"after all Darwinism has shown us that we are only re -arranged pond scum"

Wow - what a sad and derisory view to take of the Earth and all that lives on it Pete, and I Darwin certainly didn't think that. Pond scum are actually rather wonderful and astonishing organisms, given they've been around for around 3 billion years. It's all good, all wonderful and we are an intrinsic part of the same ecosystem.


"CMI- is creation ministries international [creation.com]. I find most of my info there.",/I>

One book, one website. CMI is a complete joke, and there's way to much wrong with the content it presents to even start on here. It's pointless trying to refute as it is largely senseless in the first place. It looks credible though (check out their 'peer reviewed journal', it is a slightly sad, amateurish parody of the real thing)' stick a grid and wavey white lines on stuff and to some people it seems 'scientific'.

Pete's taken a kicking here, but he is an excellent teacher. Pete is a main of faith, and he rejects the modern world view born of and developed by rational enquiry since the enlightenment. He represents a large number of people who have adopted an absolutist world view that by it's very nature cannot be questioned, for the very act of questioning it is a heresy in itself; an adherent would destroy their own world view by doing so.

The real issue here is how can we deal with this sort of extremism? How do you discuss science with people who don't recognise ANY other system of philosophy other than their own as legitimate?

These people are causing real damage to our children's education, they are beginning to influence politics (especially in the US) and they are fundamentally dangerous people who cause real suffering, for instance the shutting down of abortion clinics in Texas last week, which is typical of the oppression the extremist elements of the Abrahamic religions visit on women. I don't see much compassion or love coming from these people, much less peace and understanding and there is an underlying aggressiveness in their rhetoric.

How can we engage in dialogue with people who don't want to listen?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 12:19 PM

Well Stu, this thread is full of pettiness, begrudgery and point scoring... (apart from me and musket of course).

You wait a while until shaw, stringsinglet, gnomet, shitroad and the rest of the cut and paste police have had their afternoon nap and got their thumbs well up their collective bums and what passes for minds firmly in neutral...then watch their smoke

And don't even think of critising THEM.. or the highest sin.. making a spelling mistake or a comma in the wrong place!!!..lawks a mercy!! you will hear the shrieks, yelps and the rending of garments from these self opinionated oafs, a mile away.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 12:35 PM

"I repeat. He wants compulsory testing and a register of one section of society based on choice of partner rather than clinical risk. Testing cannot lead to cure, so there is no point. It is already an offence to knowingly have unsafe sex if you have a sexually transmitted disease, so he fails to make a point."

Ian... You are deliberately spreading misinformation about my views, fortunately, only your acolytes here seem to be paying any attention to what you are printing.   Thank you Pete, your opinion of me is not misplaced and even as an atheist, I admire your guts and faith in standing up to such a shower.
I repeat that the origin of the universe is beyond the understanding of humanity and a belief in "god" has always been beneficial to society.....if "god" happens to be the life force, it is hard to deny that we were created by "god".

Ian, as male homosexuality contains by far the highest levels of sexual transmitted diseases(70% of all new cases of syphilis and HIV, compulsory testing would certainly be based on clinical risk and not sexual preference. As I have already said, if these infection rates pertained to any other demographic, I would be supporting compulsory testing for that demographic.

The biggest problem with HIV/Aids is the very large numbers of male homosexuals who have not yet been diagnosed yet carry the virus.
The last study by CDC made clear that over 30% of those who tested positive were completely unaware that they had been infected.
Compulsory testing would have to run in conjunction with increased contact tracing, which would stop the spread of the disease in those who are unaware of their condition.

You are a disgrace to the medical profession....if you ever had anything to do with it....to allow your agenda to determine your views on this issue.......Isn't the irradication of the epidemic of sexual disease amongst male homosexuals, more important than your "belief" in equality under a Capitalist system?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 01:02 PM

"These people are causing real damage to our children's education, they are beginning to influence politics (especially in the US) and they are fundamentally dangerous people who cause real suffering,..."

You should heed Stu's words, pete. Basically, you've been hi-jacked and brainwashed by the 'Tea-party Taliban'!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 02:10 PM

My position is utterly clear: I believe science is the best philosophical system we have for learning the fundamental truth of the nature of ourselves and our universe.

Science is not a philosophical system, it is just science. In particular, it does not have any meaning beyond itself. For example, the word Darwinism is normally used for attempts to transfer science into judgments of quality and moral justification - utterly unscientific, and usually driven by personal motives.

The search for meaning, particularly in apects of human life and society, is quite a distinct occupation. Traditional narratives did not separate those spheres, since the very notions of reality and truth were different from today's. Those who want to ignore that shift, will do justice neither to science nor to religion and the strife for a meaningful life in society.

For example, I cannot see a difference in dignity between being made of clay and descending from molecules. Dignity as such is a concept entirely strange to scientific thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 03:34 PM

I'm not a healthcare professional so how I can be a disgrace to anything medical is beyond me.

Akenaton says gay men should be forced to be tested for HIV. That's all you need to hear in order to form a view on his wickedness. It would be bad enough, but considering many gay men don't indulge in anal sex, protected or otherwise, that anal sex is a risk factor and that far more heterosexual anal sex takes place than between two men...

I repeat what the wonderful Stephen Fry asks bigots on camera. What is your fascination with anal sex?

Dio you support the idea that female members of your family are forced to have a swab stuck up their vagina against their wishes? You have just said so above when you use grown up words such as demographics.

Luckily, decent people don't force people to undergo invasive clinical procedures against their will. The many healthcare professionals and social care profession involved in reaching out to hard to reach groups find their task harder because of disgusting bigots stigmatising those they lie about caring about.

If you did care a single jot, you'd shut your filthy putrid mouth. But you don't care, you just want to blame them for society's ills. Watching "Out There" on the telly this last week, we were shown how backward evil people spout their poison on the likes of Uganda, USA, Iran and Russia. Well, until they curl up and die, bigots still exist in decent countries.

And that's sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 03:47 PM

To be honest snail, I don't get hung up about the definition of the word evolution. I know what it means, the dictionary definition seems to be what I assume it to be, and what the flying fuck it has to do with a book I have never read is beyond me?

I use the term "one more time" but I can't wax lyrical about Britney Spears, so why are you confusing your reading of my comments with a theory I didn't make reference to?

Oh. The person who said above that the origins of the universe is beyond the understanding of humanity forgot to say that it beyond his understanding. Many people are beginning to put the bricks together and it is fascinating. I only wish I understood it more than I do or indeed can do. However, I don't judge discovery by the limits of my own understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:45 PM

"after all Darwinism has shown us that we are only re -arranged pond scum"

Wow - what a sad and derisory view to take of the Earth and all that lives on it Pete, and Darwin certainly didn't think that. Pond scum are actually rather wonderful and astonishing organisms, given they've been around for around 3 billion years. It's all good, all wonderful and we are an intrinsic part of the same ecosystem.

Cheers, Stu. This is the best post of the thread. Not least because it throws into sharp relief the dismal and leaden view of pete and his sorry ilk, revealing them as the proto-fascist and devious scumbags that they really are. Imagine a world run by these horrid people. Freedom would become a word of the past, just as truth is a word of the past to Snail (who, I note, no-one ever rushes to support - what an embarrassment!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:15 PM

""Don't shout at me wizjet there really is no need.


I always thought you had something missing in your sad life how I am sure.""

I have a happier life than you could ever aspire to, and my skills and qualifications are known to many UK members in the real world.

I feel for you, I really do, that the only way that you can feel close to adequate, is to invent talents, qualifications and experiences which are entirely spurious, and so obviously ridiculous that they highlight your lack of self esteem and confidence.

It saddens me, that the only way in which you can feel any positive emotion is by belittling those who make you feel so insignificant.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:33 PM

""I thought it was a TR4 - Moses came down the mountain in his Triumph. Ah well, just goes to show what I know...""

Think, O vertically challenged one!

The four wheeled TRs, from the 4 onwards, would skid if somebody spat on the pavement(sidewalk), and trip over a box of matches.

Of course he came down on two wheels, but I'd plump for the 1962 650cc Trophy TR6SS, with the two into one straight through exhaust and pre unit construction engine and gearbox.

Going up Box Hill, that could be heard all over Israel.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:40 PM

""Mudcat rule is: those who object might reply, those who agree are likely just to nod silently.""

I've always found that those who agree with me are countering those who don't in much the same proportion as those who object are countering me.

I think you have a logical fallacy there Grishka.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:43 PM

"invasive clinical procedures"?

A simple mouth swab does the trick. Obviously you really do know nothing about clinical procedures.

Anal sex? who mentioned anything about anal sex other than yourself Ian?

The main problem with male homosexuality seems to be both the act itself...AND huge rates of promiscuity involving very many sexual partners and in many cases an addiction to anonymous sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 09:36 PM

""The last study by CDC made clear that over 30% of those who tested positive were completely unaware that they had been infected.""

Should not that be 100%, given that nobody is aware that he has been infected with anything, unless symptoms appear, or he tests positive.

Specifically speaking of HIV, the average time before an infection shows symptoms is approximately ten years, and only 50% develops into AIDS.

30%? DUH!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:40 AM

The problem is Don, and sadly we see this in the media too, lazy cherry picking of figures out of context lead to trying to convince people of false facts. Usually for a reason. In a slightly more benign way, it is like The Daily M*il and what causes / cures cancers. You can make a case for anything. Some people make such cases to legitimise their awful agendas.

The pathetic attempt to falsify statistics you exposed there reminds me of other statistics that the clinical world has to take on the chin. When people die during treatment for many ailments, we compare it to how many should do and question whether a death is an outlier or not. If so, it could mean NHS trusts aren't "coding" conditions correctly or could mean wrong treatments being accepted or in some cases, lack of quality of care. These are called, amongst other things, standardised mortality rates.

However, you tend to accept that newspapers, tv and many politicians shorten this to "mortality rates. " There can be only one mortality rate of course. .. 100%!

I notice that the worm is wriggling around anal sex, which he says he never mentions, and the homosexual act, which he does all the time.   Presumably he has a hang up about a couple taking it in turns to go to the bar. Perhaps they can get a simple mouth swab whilst waiting for their pint to be poured. .......

Just a note for anyone who doesn't know, such as the worm. Most sexually transmitted diseases can only be tested for by swab or biopsy of the naughty bits. The two conditions we are most concerned with, chlamydia and triggers for cervical cancer being obvious examples. The largest public health screening issue we face right now is young women from ethnic minority backgrounds not coming forward for cervical screening. I suppose the link to this thread would be that a large factor in this is backward religious leaders convincing parents that their offspring should not be sullied, even with a swab. Even, and this is important, of their own accord. Civilised society accepts that forced screening is wrong, let alone clinically effective. .....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:08 AM

Don,

""Mudcat rule is: those who object might reply, those who agree are likely just to nod silently.""

I've always found that those who agree with me are countering those who don't in much the same proportion as those who object are countering me.

I think you have a logical fallacy there Grishka.

Nothing to do with logic, just an observation, meant to answer the suspicion (presumably not in earnest) that I might be astroturfing. Indeed, some other Mudcat posters tend to gang up, not always successfully creating the impression of representing a genuine majority, let alone superior evidence. Also, sometimes members of a gang actually seem to despise each other.

My own posts are not always easy to understand, partly because of my clumsiness (English not being my mother tongue), partly because I want to express thoughts that are not well-known to everybody (- those who complain about that are welcome to ask me for further explanations). Given that, I am quite happy with the amount and quality of support I get, though sometimes embarrassed by misunderstandings or willful misinterpretations.

BS is a jungle, we enter at our own risk. It is silly to argue towards an imaginary referee.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:17 AM

Ian, you are wrong or lying again. You really must stop that if you wish to become credible again on this forum.

The mouth swab test for HIV, which is the issue we are discussing, has been used by health professionals since 2004.....surely as an NHS pen pusher, you must have come across that tiny detail?
In fact, the mouth swab test is now available to the public on the NHS!!



From the Daily Mail, there are dozens of other sources!
"A mouth swab HIV test that can deliver a result in 20 minutes has been made available on the NHS for the first time.

Doctors at a London hospital expect to carry out around 250 of the tests per month.

Barts and the London NHS Trust is the first in the UK to introduce the saliva test for NHS patients after a trial which showed it was as effective as a blood test.

Three quarters of patients questioned in a survey said they preferred it to the conventional test.

Patients tested for the Aids virus previously had to wait a week for their results.

The new test, which uses a special absorbent toothbrush to collect saliva samples from the mouth, provides a result in just 20 minutes.

Merie Symonds, head of sexual health at the Trust, said: 'Approximately a third of people in the UK who are HIV positive are currently unaware of their condition.

'There are still very real problems due to people who are not testing until they have become unwell as a result of undiagnosed HIV infection. This means that treatment that is now widely available may not work as effectively.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1185751/Mouth-swab-detects-HIV-20-minutes-available-NHS.html#ixzz2jZkfjvBY
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:45 AM

You are talking about the test for one STD. I am talking about the STDs people should be concerned about most, just like the filth behind Akenhateon claims to be doing.

Next.




Bart's has pioneered ways of combating HIV transmission. Their third of people who test HIV + are from their own population. The majority are both prostitutes sadly, male and female, and their unwitting clients.

Merie Symonds said a third of the population served by the services provided by their trust. The Daily Mail put It as the UK. The local CCGs are commissioning similar services where I help out, and whilst our figures are lower, and far more of heterosexual origin than inner London, the numbers of people being prescribed antiretrovirals is increasing, which is both good and bad when you think about it. It is bad enough countrywide, but whilst ever bigotry lives, hard to reach groups will always cluster in the anonymity of large cities. Mental health is another city cluster group incidentally.

I suppose once The a Daily M*il stops outing queers and bigotry in general dies out healthcare and social care professionals can continue as they are doing with limited funds, to combat sexually transmitted diseases. It doesn't help when a church group in Leeds is reminding councillors on the health overview and scrutiny committee how many votes they represent and how much money spent on homosexual health could be spent on normal people instead.

Once society has turned the clock back on queers, how about we then start on niggers and pakis? Islamophobia is popular, hope yet for you eh? Your views on travellers are also well documented, scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:55 AM

Perhaps certain people on this thread should start another, separate one about homosexuality and homophobia? We're getting WAY off topic!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:47 AM

True.

But each and every time bigotry rears it's putrid head, I cannot and will not let it go unchallenged.

Never.

Lies and hate cannot prevail.

In any case, what thread? This thread has no topic as discussed ad nauseum above. Atheism is not an alternative to religion, as the only alternative to religion is no religion, which is certainly not atheism. Atheism as a word means not theist. Militant means giving a shit.

Hence some of us invented the true religion in order to give the thread substance. Problem is, the substance of religion is the problem in the first place.

Anyway, combating lowlife scum does allow the introduction of the effects of militant religion, which is more on thread than some topics......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:51 AM

I would not have mentioned it on this thread Shimrod, had Ian not started misrepresenting my words and motives.
He finds a way of doing this on every thread.
I have made my point, the man is ruled by his agenda and would not know the truth if it bit him on the arse.
He mentioned "invasive clinical procedures" in reference to hiv testing ...I was simply making the readers aware that the test is oral or blood sample.

I will say no more on the subject in this thread, but I make a point of never knowingly lying on this forum, I just wish Ian would observe the same principle.
A liar on one subject will be a liar on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:57 AM

the test is oral or blood sample

Anything inserted through the skin or into any orifice is considered an invasive procedure.

I will say no more on the subject in this thread, but I make a point of never knowingly lying on this forum

Having just been made out to be a liar by stating HIV testing is non-invasive I suspect you will continue in the same vein (no pun intended) by saying much more on this and many other threads. I hope that I am proved wrong.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 10:25 AM

Being forced to answer a question, let alone have someone touch you without your consent is an invasion of privacy. Healthcare professionals commit criminal assault and risk losing their professional registration if they touch a person for clinical reason without their consent or advocated consent under The Mental Capacity Act 2005.

Publishing (which includes public commentary such as posting on websites) views that stigmatise and oppress people based on their sexual orientation is a criminal offence.

If you don't have the get out clause given to religions, you cannot advocate hate. (Just thought I'd get religion in there somewhere. As this is a music website, did you know that much of the anger Lou Reed out into his music was a result of being forced to undergo electro convulsive therapy to cure him of his declared homosexuality as a teenager? )

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 12:09 PM

"Science is not a philosophical system, it is just science. In particular, it does not have any meaning beyond itself. For example, the word Darwinism is normally used for attempts to transfer science into judgments of quality and moral justification - utterly unscientific, and usually driven by personal motives."

You're right, my phrasing was poor and I agree science is not so much a system of philosophy, but very closely engaged with scientific philosophy; indeed it can be difficult to find a line of demarcation between the two. I was seeking to distance the philosophy of science from the scientific method as a subject for discussion but phrased it clumsily. In this respect although science is not strictly a philosophic system, you can't be a scientist unless you address some serious philosophical issues.

Science is a system of enquiry with certain methodologies that are designed to study the truth. How do we arrive at these methods? When designing a programme of research, an experiment or gathering data how can we be sure we are not subject to bias, that our results are reflections of our own subjective reasoning or expectations? How do we interpret these results as objectively as possible?

This is one area where the philosophy comes in, as we seek to understand the nature of the common reality we all share. There are several philosophies within science (the wikipedia page on science is a reasonable introduction), and indeed philosophies within individual scientific disciplines and these are often influenced by the work of thinkers outside of our individual areas of expertise.

This is one major reason why creationists can never engage with science on equal terms; they don't have to question even the most basic assumptions of their belief system. Even the question of authorship of their primary source of information is beyond questioning as the literalists believe it is the word of god. So the very act of questioning is not in their nature. They might comment "but we're questioning your system of enquiry and the results" and they are, but they do so from a position in which they are already convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong. EVERYONE.

So even though early scientists approached the study of geology and palaeontology from a creationist viewpoint, slowly they realised the evidence did not add up and changed their views. They asked themselves difficult and searching philosophical questions and in the end decided to keep working to answer those questions rather than take someone else's word for the nature of reality, and modern science was born.

No philosophy, no science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:21 PM

""Merie Symonds, head of sexual health at the Trust, said: 'Approximately a third of people in the UK who are HIV positive are currently unaware of their condition.""

There you go again!

How in hell does she know how many people, as yet untested, have the HIV virus, let alone what percentage of the total HIV positive population they represent.

Unless she has found a way of scanning the untested population of the UK, she can only be making a wild guess which cannot be supported by hard scientific evidence.

Statistical analysis only works if you have certain basic facts. She does not!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:33 PM

Fair enough at face value Don that isn't what she said. The Daily M*il paraphrased her and left out the base for the estimation, which isn't normally a great way out.

The problem with healthcare is that you have to plan on prediction. The good news is that public health is rather good at it. In my old patch when I chaired an authority, our director of public health said we should budget for 17 of a particular emergency intervention for a given year. Out of a population of 230, 000, this seemed too impressive to me. I was wrong and I won't get churlish over our having to fund 18 not 17. (At £200k per patient, we did have to ensure the slush fund was intact. ..)

None of this is relevant to the issue here though. A newspaper misquotes in order to get a story. A fool likes this story because it somehow feeds his hatred of people different to him. Sadly it started as good news. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:54 PM

Steve Shaw
What is self-evident is that evolution takes place. Self-evident means that you don't need to be a genius, or even a scientist, to see it (whether you recognise it or care about it is a different matter). What is not self-evident is the explanations of its mechanisms. If something is self-evident it means you'd be a fool to deny it.

I was right, you are working to a curious definition of self evident.

Back to those testicles. It is self-evident that the right testicle is to the right of the left testicle. It does not take science, or a genius, to work it out because it doesn't need any working out. It's just there, just like evolution.

I'm happy to take your word for it as to the presence and arrangement of your testicles which, you would seem to be telling us, are available for all to see. Could you show me some evolution that I might see, hear, feel or otherwise directly experience?

If you're the kind of "philosopher" who would waste time arguing that I can't prove that the right testicle is to the right of the left testicle, or that testicles might not even exist at all, then you're not worth the bother.

No, I'm not. Might I suggest that you address yourself to what I am actually saying rather than making up a load of bollocks and attacking me for that.

truth is a word of the past to Snail (who, I note, no-one ever rushes to support - what an embarrassment!)

Not directly perhaps but -

Stu
Although we can't say for 100% evolution is true...

Shimrod
If I have faith in anything, I have faith in the scientific method. I also have faith that there's no such thing as absolute truth.

I also seem to recall that TIA, before he went off in a huff, was very strong on religion not fulfilling the criterion of falsifiability.

So unlike the overwhelming support for the "Evolution is true." doctrine. Er... I even asked your co-messiah what he thought about it and he evaded the question. Now he says "I see evidence for evolution all over the place. Or at least. (And this is the clincher) I observe what is explained by no alternative theory.". Quite a long way from "True" or "Self-evident".

I have quoted Popper, Einstein, Dawkins, Darwin and many others in support of my position. You have brushed them all aside. From you we get "Evolution is true" (Steve Shaw says so.) "Evolution is self-evident." (Steve Shaw says so.) Never mind your testicles, show us your support.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:06 PM

Mudcat ate my cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:23 PM

musket, you said, I think , that you" see evidence of evolution all over the place....."
snail seemed to applaud that [with some proviso].
I would say that ,no, you don't, Darwinian or not, but natural selection may be observed. this is not the same thing as the claim that one kind of animal gave rise to another, or that stu,steves wonderful complex pond scum eventually produced people.
that is what I mean by equivocation. I say it again, as it has not , so far as I know, been demonstrated that one type of animal can be a subject of selection beyond the info encoded in its dna.
a dog kind for example is a dog whether dingo, dacshound,or Doberman.
mind you, dawkins did say something about evolution being observed but that no one was around to observe it!

seems I need to remind some of you ,too, that creation was believed long before USA politics . tea parties in England are quite apolitical!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 07:07 PM

"Mudcat ate my cookie"? I wish mudcat was a Frenchman who ate snails! For your information, oh thou who art scared of truth, Richard Dawkins has said that evolution is true on several occasions, so what's all this "brushing aside" bollox! Yes, the philosophy of science is an interesting area without which science would lose its base, but science has also got to be a tad pragmatic (otherwise it would disappear up its own philosophical arsehole instead of moving on for the good of mankind and the natural world), and the pragmatic side of me tells me that there is no doubt worth contemplating (which is not quite the same as no doubt whatsoever) that evolution happens, If you disagree, do apprise us of your demurrals, with full reasons. Do you not think that evolution happens? Do you think that someone, some day, will come up with a convincing counter-explanation? Ultimately, Gastropodus stalkerissimus, are you actually a closet creationist?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 01:09 AM

Funny. I've seen video of sheep tucking their legs in and rolling over cattle grids.

But I've never seen divine intervention.

I've aware that when milk bottles started coming in foil tops, Blue tits in different parts of the country learned to break the seal within a day or two.

But I've never seen prayer work as a concept.

I've seen how wolves have become many strains of domestic dog.

But never seen proof that Jesus was any more than a person who Pissed off the clerics who were doing well for themselves under the occupation.

If he existed at all.

I've seen the calculations for and thanks to my education can understand red shift which contradicts the superstitious version of the age of the universe.

But I've nothing but the translations of translations of people in no position to know the age of the earth with regard to this 7 day malarkey. If he created the universe, why the reference in days to one planet out of billions and billions?

I don't study evolution. But if the alternative is the Bible, then either Darwin and co are on the button or nobody is yet. The mythical "God did it" used to work for ignorant peasants but today's peasants aren't quite as ignorant. Or susceptible.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:34 AM

Well, like I said before, this stuff is getting far too serious. We are not going to convince anyone to join our religion by debate or reasoned argument. And we don't have a Spanish Inquisition to convince people of the error of their ways.

No, sorry Messiahs, the sooner we get back to bingo and bollocks the more followers we will gain.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:53 AM

"seems I need to remind some of you ,too, that creation was believed long before USA politics ."

Yes, and most people stopped believing in it when a better explanation came along! Now 'belief' in 'creation' seems to be confined to a bunch of sinister and vociferous religious fundamentalist fascists in the USA and at least one of their indoctrinated followers in the UK!

By the way, Musket, I thought that your last post was spot-on! I hope that you've read it, pete!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:29 AM

"Stu
Although we can't say for 100% evolution is true..."

This comment is taken a tad out of context . . . to all intents and purposes evolution is happening, and is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:41 AM

Oi Dave, I've made a concerted effort to talk real bollocks over the last few days and I've even got Snail talking frank bollocks as well (or, more accurately, even franker bollocks). Pete talks utter brainless bollocks about everything he turns what passes for his mind to and bonkers conkers talks bollocks about nothing at all (though admittedly he talks colourful bollocks, and by that I don't mean colourful as in my own personal tackle the day after my vasectomy). Achy Tony talks nothing but illiberal bollocks as we all know. I suspect that, in bemoaning the lack of bollocks-talk around here, you are actually subconsciously lamenting the absence of Wacko, the archetypal King Bollocks. And I hope this post will, temporarily at least, satisfy your yearning for bollox-talk, because it's full of it. Hope this helps!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:45 AM

That's the best we can say about anything, Stu, and if we weren't allowed to say it we may as well just ditch the word "true" altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:49 AM

You really need to chill-axe wizzjet before your nice little pseudo educated life implodes.

In the opinion of you and most of the begrudgers on here I am a troll?

If you and the rest of your little judgmental and self opinionated clan think this, why oh wh, you prancing priapus, do you leap on my every post?.

Or is it that you are so far up your own arses that you have to demonstrate your(supposed) superior intellect at every opportunity?

Belittling people is not the way to go, you just make yourself look an even more of a self satisfied ass and bounder than you already are..

THAT, my dear phony, is a real sense of insecurity and a tremendous lack of self esteem..I have told you before I am one to many for you.

If,however, you insist on making a bigger clown and oaf of yourself..Bring it on!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:25 AM

""Belittling people is not the way to go, you just make yourself look an even more of a self satisfied ass and bounder than you already are..""

Pity you don't apply the same standards to yourself jerkoff.

""THAT, my dear phony, is a real sense of insecurity and a tremendous lack of self esteem..I have told you before I am one to many for you.""

We've all heard your incredible self aggrandisement with spurious feats of skill and knowledge you obviously don't possess.

Being called a phoney by a double dyed pseud like you amounts to a complement, for which I thank you!

Now Foxtot Oscar and stop interupting the grownups.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket being spherical
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:02 AM

You realise of course, my dear associated gnome, that in the eyes of some here, everything I say is bollocks. Even the serious bits, which to be fair are brushing pete aside or shouting at pond scum. Nice that pete doesn't have time for pond scum, because I don't have time for Akenhateon either.

The emphasis on bollocks has been missing ever since The Rev. Spooner called out to Betty Swollox and she took umbrage. Took Co Messiah S's bingo takings too to what we can ascertain, although a music shop in Camelford has recently managed to sell that chromatic harmonica they couldn't shift.

Just saying like......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket's new game
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:11 AM

Tell you what. We can start a new game to replace the bingo.

I come up with a quote from a Mudcat member and you have to guess who it is?

We'll start with something easy.. Ready?



well said ebbie...Im sick of all this PC stuff about Gays..Royal or otherwise.You cant turn on your TV or radio without Gay "culture " ouzing out. How many Gay folk singers do we know?...


Any guesses?

I'll give you a clue. He only says what he does in order to help gay people.

Getting warmer?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Muskets's new game
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:22 AM

Any idea yet?

Ok. Here's another quote from another thread by the same caring person.

If you carry on reading though, you will get five not ten points.


I must give my support to "cruiser"in this thread. He has had the courage to say what many of us feel about homosexuality, but are too intimidated by the politically correct "Gay"pressure group.
I too think homosexuality is repugnant,against nature and based on psychological problems.
Cruiser says the answer is to turn away and let the homosexuals get on with their lives,but unfortunatly this is getting harder and harder to achieve, as "gay culture " ouzes from every media orifice,
with all its nasty innuendo,like little boys behind the bike shed
and god help anyone who tries to stop them....Ake
PS At least folk music seems to be pretty clear of this scourge.
Just shows what well adjusted ,sensible hetros we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:44 AM

Now now wizzjet don't get personal!! If you cant take a little well deserved criticism maybe you should foxtrot oscer a give us all a break from your temper tantrums..

Btw nothing I say about you is meant to be a compliment..you are, always was and forever will be, a pompous judgmental , self satisfied, cake eating cad..so there!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:37 AM

Yay! Thanks, co-Messiahs. Your words of wisdom were a joy to behold but getting good old Conc on the case was the real stroke of genius. I have not seen so much bollocks in days :-)

I am not very good at games though, Messiah M. Is it Rudolph Hess?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:42 AM

"Belittling people is not the way to go,..."

Normally I'd agree with that, 'concerened'. But you've got 'kick me' stencilled on your trouser seat!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM

Do you really think so shitroad..?

Coo!!, I am gutted,except, if you remember I am of the gender that wears skirts.

Also if you think I am worried one jot about what people think of me you have the wrong pollack.

I will leave that to the academics? like wizzjet the sulky baby and the rest of the slat kicking out of cot buffoons.

have a nice day

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket the game master
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:21 PM

No, it isn't Rudolph Hess. I can see where you are coming from though. Here's a clue. Both Hess and the mystery fun guy have connections with Scotland.

Any thoughts?

Here's another clue from the archive;


Lily Festre....You are quite wrong to state unequivocably that there is no link between MALE homosexuality and the abuse of boys.

And a bonus quote from the same thread..


Alan dont let us mince our words, the real issue is whether or not male homosexuals can be trusted with the personal care of young children.



And a further bonus? An insight into the caring side..


However, I still think this is a very serious matter and chilren are being placed in a very dangerous position through our adherence to PC.
Children brought up by a "same sex couple" also face a young life of taunting and bullying by their peers.
Something which never seems to have been taken into account by the authorities, but which can blight a child's life forever.



This quiz is brought to by Musket Entertainment Ltd, In association with a fellow Mudcatter who didn't like two faced liars apparently, and thought a set of, I reckon it is at Least 200 quotes on gay lifestyle by the mystery person and pm'd me with them. Not a single one about caring for their health.....