BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:25 PM

Steve (18 Oct 13 - 09:48 AM), the thread may do what it pleases, and so may you and I.

Pete probably feels glorious like a heroic martyr (Jack wrote somewhere that he turns the other cheek in imitatio Christi), without suffering any real damage. You, Musket, and others appreciate him as a perfect specimen, easy to make a mockery of. What a happy company; congratulations!

Musket, the problem is that so few people are likely to feel well entertained - actually Dave may be the only one. The two of you, and other posters, cannot hide their very own absolutely serious emotional problems, and the result is not funny, just incongruous. You are often very frank about your personal matters though, which is sometimes truly interesting.

You asked for my opinion, you read it; no further issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:00 PM

I bet Jesus wished they'd run out by Thursday night.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 12:09 PM

Don't worry Steve. pete must still think I'm a twat even though I am giving him a back handed compliment.

Grishka. In analysing my contribution you either seek to drag out earnest debate or you are lecturing me. Neither will get you anywhere I'm afraid. For starters I use a silly nickname for a reason. Sure, everybody knows its Mather doing the typing and those who know Mather are pissing themselves laughing. Mather is too for that matter but I digress.

It is the concept "as a Christian" that gets me. Nothing else. Live and let live. I am presently installing some equipment I donated to a local church for that matter. But people who wear their Christian credentials in order to influence get my goat. In fact, I'll probably tether it to Keith's car if I get a chance.

Just think on this. If you detect any vitriol, any stereotyping of group delusion, then just remember it is reaction not pro action. Strong acid needs strong alkali if you are ever going to neutralise its corrosive effects.

Have you noticed how you always run out of nails on a Sunday just as B&Q are shutting as per religious law?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 09:48 AM

Grishka, knock it off, will you? Let the bloody thread do what the bloody thread wants to do. You are currently coming across as a pompous half-policeman.

And pete must be enjoying this current "at least he's a genuine guy" bunch of accolades. Very nice, but just remember two things: first, he doesn't listen to a word any of us say, and second, if his ilk get anything like close to become the religious default of this world they would spread misery and ignorance as we've rarely seen it before. Genuine adherents are one thing. Genuine adherents with one-track minds and severe tunnel vision are far less desirable.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM

Musket, we need not achieve a consensus, not even a compromise.

So why do we have to respect delusional fantasy just because our ancestors did?

You do not, as far as I am concerned. Many of us feel the need to relate to their genetic and cultural ancestors and peers, and suffer from the problems encountered.

Since you ask me:

Respect others as you want to be respected. Criticise what you deem needing criticism, but do not confuse distinct notions (church, religion, ethics/morality, clergy, theology, religious culture, group dynamics in English villages, ...). Above all, understand best you can your own emotions and other human conditions, then your fellow humans'. Read influential and typical writings and try to grasp their ideas and motives, whether or not you consider adopting them.

If you reply to any message in a public forum, make a reasonable effort to understand its sense and intention; ask if necessary. If you shun that, or are unable due to alcohol consumption or other obstacles, don't reply. Always be aware that any "real person" who knows your name can google you at Mudcat.

Do it for yourself, though most Mudcatters will be pleased as well. You grossly overestimate your current entertainment effect (judging from what you wrote on the "97%" thread).

You write that you value traditions, expecially folksongs. There are traditions of various degrees of meaningfulness, but even the most trite ones (such as Santa Claus) are something else than delusional fantasy. Think.—

Stu, I was not suggesting that this thread as such is completely pointless, otherwise I would not post at all. However, if you read the thread title, you can be accused of dodging as well. Recently we had a short thread about Biblical mythology, a better place for such discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:11 AM

...going back to an analogy that Musket has used. I am neither for not against stamp collecting either but if a stamp collector was to tell me I must worship triangular 3c stamps from Papua, New Guinea, I would tell him where to get off.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM

if "the fundamentalists kill, maim, lie, cheat and are generally unpleasant" as opposed to atheists, why don't you feel it a good idea to fight

Simply because nothing good was ever achieved by fighting. Stand up to them, yes, kill, main, lie and cheat, no.

Who considers the BHA silly but refrains from telling us for fear of advancing the opposing agenda

Sorry, fallacious argument. It is based on the old 'for me or against me' principle. There are other options. Neither for nor against either for example or not being bothered what rituals either religions or humanists use as long as they don't affect me!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 07:31 AM

"Pete may hope to be rewarded in Heaven for his staunchness, but what do those atheists hope, who do not really strive to save anybody else either? It must amount to "onanism", as discussed earlier."

It isn't onanistic, it's a chance to really think about how, as scientists we can deal with blind faith and the blinkers it can put on people. As I said earlier, Pete is a good teacher as his stonewalling of any meaningful discussion is a typical creationist ploy to divert a discussion from the one thing that challenges their world view that they struggle to explain: facts.

Their cherry picking is immensely frustrating, but I for one hold out hope for their salvation from delusion and ignorance. There are plenty of people of faith in all walks of life that are not on board with a literal interpretation of the bible, and who are not afraid to ask awkward questions of their faith (as we should of science); it would be interesting to have these people in on these discussions, but the literalists scare them off I guess.

This is important because there now large numbers of people who take the bible literally, and they are now affecting how politicians legislate for education, climate change and science funding. These people despise blue sky research, are against progress or personal freedom and would impose their religious laws on all of us; how long before they call for stoning to be re-introduced for some crimes?

So discussing these matters is vital, before we are back in the dark ages.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 07:08 AM

Dave, if "the fundamentalists kill, maim, lie, cheat and are generally unpleasant" as opposed to atheists, why don't you feel it a good idea to fight, if not them, then their superstitions?

Pay them for their rituals to expose them as corrupt? Would not work, even if it were intended seriously.

Those who cannot think in other terms than "agendas" will learn nothing and thus rend their own agenda a disservice. Who considers the BHA silly but refrains from telling us for fear of advancing the opposing agenda, achieves exactly what s/he fears. Conversely, saying "they are silly and do not represent atheism as I understand it", and giving additional information and reasons, would score a goal.

My own opinion is that the BHA and similar organizations do address an existing problem and are thus not silly a priori. Since you, Dave, do not seem to see such a problem at all, you cannot say whether the BHA solves it.

Stringsinger? Steve? ...?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 06:53 AM

Normal decent rational people shouldn't have to understand yet God botherers want to influence them.

What don't I understand? The difference between believing and claiming to have belief for starters. The ability to mumble amen when a vicar talks of God creating and looking after us, and then claim it is all symbolic. Then insist on upholding laws concerning Sunday opening of shops.   I don't recall church bodies asking politicians to repeal the medieval blasphemy laws for that matter. Rational people got it struck down by legal precedent.

In the final analysis, it may be polite but certainly isn't useful to discuss whether the moon landings happened with someone who reckons they didn't. So why do we have to respect delusional fantasy just because our ancestors did? If someone starts a conversation with the idea that there is a God and his angels shagged a carpenter's wife and the child could do magic tricks and didn't really die when they crucified him etc etc.   

We are not talking at the same level. The superstition involved means I cannot have a rational argument with irrational people.

Hence these threads can never achieve consensus.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 06:15 AM

Should atheists unite to fight superstition?

Grishka, you keep going on about this. Have you not read the many responses already addressing it? It boils down to "no'. The whole concept of this thread is 'militant atheism' and time and time again it has been pointed out that this is a ludicrous concept. It is a ruse by the god-botherers to tar atheists with the same brush as their own radical brethren who they are embarrassed about. It goes like this - "Yes we, know that the fundamentalists kill, maim, lie, cheat and are generally unpleasant but atheists are just as bad." They are not. Atheists, in my experience, are far less likely to attack believers than the other way round.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM

Those who willfully refuse to learn (or even to read anything that does not fit their preformed ideas) will rarely understand, regardless of their mental capacities. If they want to speak on behalf of others, they will hardly be convincing.

I wonder why they take the trouble to type their statements to Mudcat again and again. Pete may hope to be rewarded in Heaven for his staunchness, but what do those atheists hope, who do not really strive to save anybody else either? It must amount to "onanism", as discussed earlier. At least some of your statements are interesting for readers who do want to learn.

Good fun and entertainment, once a Mudcat stronghold, is not to be found here at all. Even the trolls are lame and impotent. Successful trolling requires some understanding of what is going on; claiming Oxford degrees is pointless if nobody can be expected to even consider believing it.

Has anybody looked at the BHA site, or the "Dawkins foundation", or other atheist organizations? What is your impression of them? Should atheists unite to fight superstition?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 03:27 AM

And you know, despite all that, I put pete in the category "Christian. " The others just think it fashionable to say they are. Creationism if taught to children may well be dangerous and fuck with their minds, making it difficult for them to rationalise concepts in the future, but pete tries to come to terms in his own, albeit disingenuous way to marry up science with his belief.

And that is the difference between him and the myriad boutique Christians posting all over mudcat.org at present. He believes whilst they toy with a word called belief.

I wouldn't mind. Live and let live. But the buggers want to interfere with the lives of normal rational people and sanctimonious hypocrisy isn't on my list of things to take into consideration when deciding how to approach issues.

Obviously, I'm just not clever enough to understand.   

Thank fuck for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:29 AM

Of course, Steve, you could say the same about pete - who will (probably) never be coaxed out of his cosy "God did it" hole whatever we say. Still, it's a good exercise for prompting some of us to think about the nature of science and evidence and, for that matter, religious belief. I can't resist taking another shot at it:

pete:

1. God may exist but YOU have no evidence for His existence.

2. Your assertion that God created the world, and all living things, in 7 days is highly unlikely and you have no evidence that he did any such thing - apart from biblical accounts - which are probably metaphorical.

3. If you insist that God is the creator then you have to answer the questions: Who or what created God and what materials is God made out of? If you insist that God is ineffable, then we are not arguing on equal terms - you have removed yourself from the debate.

4. Your passionate belief in something doesn't, necessarily, make it probable and your disbelief in something doesn't make it improbable.

5. You cannot insert God or the Bible into what, you perceive to be, the gaps in the ever-changing and evolving scientific account of the origins of living things, our planet and the wider Universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 11:59 PM

It's like a scab though, Messiah S, you know you shouldn't but you can't help but pick it. Wonder what it will do when it eventually realises that nothing is anonymous as it thinks on the internet? It's surprising what you can get from an IP address if you put your mind to it :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 08:02 PM

Don't bother with him/her, Shimrod. He was faintly amusing but he's now getting a tad tedious. Like a kid telling the same joke over and over again. The boy/girl is a bit of a laugh but he/she is totally sans substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 05:32 PM

'Concerened', can I just clarify something, please?

Do lathchicos have preference for barnacle balls or do they resemble them? And what IS a "bum inhabitant ginger cake"?

Those meds aren't working, are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM

Head in the sand, eh, big boy? Well lessee. You see a gap somewhere in the explanation of things. You look for more evidence, you develop better techniques for getting at that evidence, you go up countless demoralising blind alleys, you experiment and you honestly report your findings to your peers, who will fearlessly tear you to pieces, automatically assuming that you're completely wrong, unless you can convincingly demonstrate otherwise. We call that "science". So here's an alternative approach: you see a gap somewhere in the explanation of things. You do no work nor partake in any further investigation: instead, you come up with the most unlikely of all possible explanations. The more your explanation departs from human knowledge as far as we've acquired it, the more it is thoroughly counter-intuitive, and the more it breaks all the laws of nature, the better. That's what we call "religion". The big difference between these two approaches is that one involves hard work and possible humiliation, whereas the other involves calling yourself a "theologian" whereby you can pontificate with little challenge as your present your "ideas" to the collective flock of nodding dogs who have been commanded to agree. My head might be in the sand but yours is firmly and irremovably wedged up your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:32 PM

Still don't know what a 'bum inhabitant ginger cake' is. Guess I need 2 degrees for that.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:26 PM

Just for the record..just what is a left wing Tory?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM

keep your head in the sand, steve, if it makes you feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 01:07 PM

They are a bit of a disadvantage eh.shaw?..A bit like yourself and the rest of the smug posers and lathchicos like barnacle balls..wussget, stringjangles gnomyo et al.whrn it comes to brains

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 12:55 PM

Stu. Interestingly, many people with a bent towards superstition tend to use the word god to describe what we don't know.

I don't have an issue with that. The problem of course is their reluctance to give up the term once something has been sufficiently revealed.

I suppose a scientist can have faith. They just don't let it interfere with their professional judgement. Many doctors have religious faith but wouldn't resort to prayer where clinical intervention would be appropriate.

But the term creationist science is, as you and the rest of the rational end of the human race know, an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:46 AM

"If you want your God "scientifically explicable", you are actually reversing the relation."

Well, I don't want or not want a scientifically explicable god, I was thinking more along the lines of an intelligence that to us mere humans would be indistinguishable from what many would consider a god, so far beyond our comprehension might that being's powers be. What they would not be is supernatural in the traditional sense of the word.

"but I think it makes the point"

It doesn't, as it misses the point completely as it assumes the default position of there being a designer rather than a natural process.

"ie- common traits/body plans is evidence for a common designer"

Why? Tell me.

"the big gaps are acknowledged by most of you, but you all fall back on saying that we cant posit God."

You can't use gaps in our knowledge as evidence for the existence of god. You can posit the existence of god, but if you want to prove her existence scientifically then by all means do, but using scientific methods. Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:24 PM

seems then stu, that the scientists that believe in creation are at a disadvantage

They certainly are at a disadvantage, pete. The disadvantage that they're at is that they're not scientists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:48 PM

booooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiingggggggggggggggggggggg!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:10 PM

I would prefer to discuss religion on the other thread and atheism/humanism here, but it seems hopeless to insist. Anyway, two remarks, mainly to akenaton:

It is not so easy to lose the link to the past and to one's fellow humans. Actually nobody can rightly claim one's personality to be based solely on science and ethics. The posters to this thread who suggest such a claim are perfect examples to the contrary.

We must explore whatever we have retained, negative feelings included. This idea of Freud (who was not religious) has its limits but is still valid in principle. When I hear "I find comfort in religion" or "I can forget the world when in church / Moonhenge / Younameit", I often suspect that the speaker is taking a shortcut and may thus be subject to exploitation as mentioned by Dave.

Now I am still waiting for comments on the BHA with its Vice President Dawkins. Take your time. While I do not object to being praised as intelligent, I prefer to learn news.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 03:24 PM

seems then stu, that the scientists that believe in creation are at a disadvantage ,being only able to offer specifics that are evidence against evolutionary ideas while not grasping the wide sweep of evidence that supports Darwin and those that followed him.
which evidence is only apparent to those who spend a lot of time reading up ,because it cant be evidenced otherwise, and which dissenting scientists miss, despite their scientific qualifications. irony intended!.

my "ludicrous" analogy was obviously not meant to be an exact comparison, but I think it makes the point.
ie- common traits/body plans is evidence for a common designer, just like man made machine with wheels and gears etc were designed and built by intelligent life. you present no reason why common descent should be a better explanation for the machinery of life forms.
the big gaps are acknowledged by most of you, but you all fall back on saying that we cant posit God.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 02:23 PM

Not sticking up for you mate Conc any more Ake? He is obviously far more intelligent than anyone on here. Having 2 firsts from Oxford and all that.

One truism that you have come out with though. Religious rituals are indeed far more than a chance to socialise. They are used to subdue, steal and corrupt as well.

As for inspiration, well, I am inspired by a myriad of things. Like Stu I can see beauty and inspiration in nature, music, art and other people. Non of them having anything to do with religion. If you need god to inspire you, then I feel sorry for you because of what you are missing. Remember, I have had both and I know which one is best for me.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket throwing up
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 02:14 PM

This god that controls most of the contributors...

Does he make nice soufflés per chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 01:59 PM

This is great.
I am amazed by Grishka's intelligence....the abusers look positively pedantic in comparison.

If people want a "god" it's nobody's business but their own.
I believe everyone has a "god", and this thread makes it pretty obvious what sort of "god" controls most of the contributers.

Religious ritual, to my mind, is a lot more than a chance to socialise; it has a power to inspire and give comfort to many of my believing friends....they retain a link to our primitive past that I am sorry to have lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 01:12 PM

Perfectly OK with me, Stu. That is why I wrote "objects of science", not to be confused with science as a human activity. If you want your God "scientifically explicable", you are actually reversing the relation. Shall we agree on "not in conflict with science"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 12:56 PM

"Stu, I think you are somewhat mixing the objects of science ("scientifically explicable") with the acts of human thinking and feeling."

Well, I think it's a common misconception that science is a process that is done devoid of feeling (thinking is required of course). In fact, you have to ask what is the motivation of a scientist when doing research? I can't speak for anyone else so I'll speak for me.

My motivation are the feelings of awe I get when looking at things in the natural world, from a school of tiddlers in the stream to standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon. For myself, it endlessly fascinates and I've always been interested in how and why it works as it does, and how did it arrive at this state?

The thing I loved most was dinosaurs and fossils, since I was a wee chap on the beach at Lyme Regis and picked up my first belemnite. For one reason and another this hasn't been my career, but now I'm actively involved in palaeontological research on these wonderful animals. This feeling of delight and utter awe never leaves me, whether I'm out in the field or making progress when doing more experimental work. When I speak to colleagues it turns out they all feel the same; I remember going to my first conference and being over the moon to meet people who were as enthusiastic as I was about the subject.

So human feelings are massively important in research, and are as important to a scientist as they are to any follower of any religion. It's what motivates me, encourages me to try to understand the wider context for my work, and provides me with a deep sense of spiritual nourishment. I have the scientific method to ensure my objectivity and rigour are fully engaged when working.

Spiritual? Shurely shome mishtake? Well, no. Stand out in your back garden on a clear night and look up at the stars and realise you're made from the products of stars and you are the universe made conscious, you are those stars, planets and galaxies contemplating their own existence, their own nature. That's at the very least, nothing else. The most parsimonious explanation for our being able to consider our own origin. The more you reflect on this idea, the more profound and beautiful the world and the universe becomes, and the more precious every life is.

This is science and it is vast, wondrous and humbling, and it engages the emotions and feelings and this is why science exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 12:20 PM

Come on, 'concerened', don't get cocky just because your carer is helping you with your spelling (do ask her to increase your meds though!).

By the way, what IS a "bum inhabitant ginger cake"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:55 AM

Spot on, Messiah M. I would also be able to tell pitch, temperature etc. if it wasn't for the pointy hat:-)

I have the same view of churches and any secular temple. They both host social gatherings and both therefore perform a useful function. The major difference is that I don't believe anyone has lopped of someone's head for not attending the local town hall on a Sunday, or Saturday, or Friday. Sheesh, this multi-religion thing is getting tedious...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:37 AM

The marked difference between Brother Gnome and I is that I can tell you that it is raining a few milliseconds before he can. Also, being a slap head, I can comment accurately on the pitch, temperature and wind adjustment of said rain.

I keep telling you. People like the idea of a church being there for family social occasions. The reason being tradition, nostalgia and for many, harking back to innocence when you actually believed what you were told as it is hardwired in children to trust adults.

The snag is, many priests have misinterpreted the phrase "suffer the children. "

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:25 AM

"Do you find such rituals worthwhile and meaningful as intended?"

Yes, they mean many things to many different people and are, therefore, meaningful.They are also as intended. As you say yourself, they have an element of entertainment. They are, therefore intended to entertain and by virtue of both the above, they are also worthwhile.

So, there are two or three yeses :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:06 AM

Do I pass?

Nothing to pass here, and no full marks to win, Dave. We want to learn about other people, e.g. note the marked difference between you and Musket.

Of course ceremonies are never meant to be entertainment, even if they comprise elements designed for entertaining side effects (such as Gospel choirs in showbiz style). Therefore, my question should better run "Do you find such rituals worthwhile and meaningful as intended?"

No "yes" yet - where are ye, Dawkins' supporters?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM

approve of non-religious rituals such as offered by the BHA,

Yes.

and why or why not.

Because I like rituals. C'mon, this is a folk based forum!

What do such organizations have in common with churches,

People.

what not?

Religion.

What do (potential) members really want?

I want entertainment. No idea about anyone else.

Does organized "humanism" (meaning atheism plus some "positive" content) amount to an ideology?

No.

Would you wish existing church organizations to be transformed into such services?

No.

Do I pass?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 08:27 AM

I would be really interested in more answers to the question whether you approve of non-religious rituals such as offered by the BHA, and why or why not. What do such organizations have in common with churches, what not? What do (potential) members really want? Does organized "humanism" (meaning atheism plus some "positive" content) amount to an ideology? Would you wish existing church organizations to be transformed into such services?

Stu, I think you are somewhat mixing the objects of science ("scientifically explicable") with the acts of human thinking and feeling. My own feeling is that religion is primarily about humans, so I can call myself a humanist without inverted commas.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM

What's a 'bum inhabitant ginger cake'?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:15 AM

Well shitrod, you spotted the deliberate mistake; there is hope for you yet.

It should have read of course: opprobrious epithets. It means expressing contemptuous reproach; scornful or abusive: opprobrious epithets. Bringing disgrace .
A fair description of you and rest of the soot juggling, thumb up, bum inhabitant ginger cake eaters on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:03 AM

"they all evolved from a simple wheel and progressed up the evolutionary pathway and eventually took to the air!"

With respect, this example is so far from being analogous to the process of evolution it's ludicrous.


"but alternately you could [maybe] provide actual evidence of the [continuously changing] theory which you assert is evidenced."

I suspect I could spend the rest of my life trying to convince you, with little success and I have work to do. However, were you seriously interested in getting to grips with the other side of the argument a good place to start is the OU course Evolution (S366).

"full marks though for enthusiastically promoting what you believe the evidence shows you"

Thanks. I did look on creation.com at the evolution-debunking pdf, but once more it's wrong on so many levels it would take an age to unknit the whole thing, and in reality it's displays the fundamental philosophical difference that means that creationism is too extreme a view for science to discuss as we disagree on how the question of earth's origins can even be addressed.

"non-believers' love of church rituals"

I'm not sure I'm an atheists as such, as I believe their could be a scientifically explicable intelligence that could be indistinguishable from what some people might call 'god'. It could be so utterly powerful that it might be able to manipulate matter and time at a cosmic level. That's not say I believe in an afterlife (I don't). At the very least we are the universe made conscious, I'm not sure any religion has come up with a concept as profound and wonderful as that.

Why is this relevant? Because I wonder if our desire for ritual (which I think is important) is part of us recognising the indifference of the universe to our suffering and desiring to impose some order in order to make existence bearable. I strongly believe the rituals of religions allow us to reflect on the way our lives are to a large degree outside our control and seasonal rituals highlight various issues we face as part of simply being alive. A lack of ritual in secular life is perhaps why we choose to fill the void with the sort of vacuous crap that passes for entertainment and instruction these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:34 AM

I quite like ritual. Being brought up in a Russian Orthodox followed by Roman Catholic (when they used to use Latin!) environment I grew accustomed to the sung liturgy and have always found it quite beautiful. Of course I decided that the religious bit was quite unnecessary at an early age. I would still quite happily attend a sung mass but see it far more as an entertainment and a social gathering than anything else.

Oddly enough I still wear a cross as a remnant from my childhood (Read about the Cossacks if you want to know why!) and a St Christopher but that is pure superstition. My son once removed St Chris from his car and the very same day the car was written off by an uninsured driver! Nasty buggers these old Saints if you slight them :-)

I do like the definition 'not accepting any god'.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

To celebrate the half-thousand, I propose to return to the thread title. On the thread "Religion, which is the best one?" we discussed about non-believers' love of church rituals. Some of these form "humanist" organizations such as the BHA which boasts Richard Dawkins as its vice president. Musket calls them silly and insists that his rituals be performed by genuine CofE priests. Would others like to comment?

BTW: The ancient word atheist always means "not accepting any god", without any propagandistic connotation. In contrast, religious propagandists, e.g. of Islam, often call followers of other religions "non-believers" to suggest that they are in fact atheists. Of course non-atheists will disapprove of atheists, and will do so by any other name. In particular, the idea that non-believers will take licence for any kind of "godless crimes" is intrinsic to the simplistic belief that religion is the source of ethics.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:07 AM

500!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 03:55 AM

"somewhat like a bike , a car ,an articulated truck, and an aircraft.
they all evolved from a simple wheel and progressed up the evolutionary pathway and eventually took to the air!"

Could you just run that past me again, pete?!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM

Gosh, I go away for a day to climb Dunkery Beacon to visit the site (on what would have been his birthday) where my wonderful father-in-law's ashes were scattered, and what do I find? Why, Snailie Boy/Girl (I knew a girl called Bryan once - a bit dodgy, but hey ho) is still having a go about me and my evolution-is-true truth! Now listen up, trail-of-slime. Here's chapter and verse, you bloody lousy stalker you. Evolution is true. It happens. It exists. It cannot be refuted (do feel free to stop me whenever you like...) But, saying "evolution is true" is not a scientific statement. After breakfast this morning I had a really good, hearty shit. I hardly have the words to convey to you the satisfaction thereof. But telling you that I had a good, hearty shit is not a scientific statement. It is a statement (which you may, at your peril, feel free to refute, of course: have a chat with pete. He'll tell you that black is white and, in all probability, that Steve can't possibly shit) of what happened in the real world. Now evolution is true. It's true because it happens and only a fool would say it doesn't. Perhaps you're one of those fools. Do tell us if you're not completely certain that evolution happens.

However.

Evolution needs to be explained. There are many details and nuances that worry even its most ardent adherents. So what we have is the theory of evolution by natural selection. 'Tis is a wonderful theory because it espouses a massive body of superb evidence. Evidence in the very best scientific meaning of the word. The theory explains evolution really well. But the theory is an explanation of the truth, and that theory still has a lot of explaining to do. Now do go along and shove your philosophical carpings where the sun don't shine, dear boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:16 PM

Pete, you win full marks for keeping the flag upright. Readers who are interested in evolution and genetics should read the ample material available on the Internet, starting with Wikipedia. As I wrote, it is not simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:27 PM

Please carry on doing what you do best, Bryan. Like I said, if you want to fight, please feel free, but you are on your own as far as I am concerned. Do try to stick to the point of the thread though rather than tilting at non-existent windmills.

:D tG